Is it Possible to Live with Total Lucidity? J. Krishnamurti & Dr. Huston Smith

[ktlight]

This is a lively debate that covers the question of whether the human mind can ever be free of fear. The discussion goes beyond, into the condition of mankind psychologically, but bear in mind that the word is not the thing. It is an insightful debate which is well worth viewing.

It took place at Claremont College, California (1968)

Conversation between Krishnamurti and Prof. Huston Smith, at the time, a professor of religion at M.I.T. Prof. Smith begins the conversation with the question \'Is it Possible to Live with Total Lucidity?\' Huston Smith: \'I am Huston Smith, professor of philosophy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and I invite you to a conversation arranged by the Blaisdale Institute of Claremont, California, with Krishnamurti, who was raised by Annie Besant and the Theosophists to be a teacher, and who, though he discarded the mantle of Theosophy, did indeed become a sage of our century, one whose voice is heard as much by the youth of today as throughout the world for the last sixty years. \'Krishnamurti, maybe this morning I will have only one question which in one way or another I will be coming back to in various ways. In your writings, in your speaking, time and again you come back to this wonderful little word, lucid and lucidity, but is it possible living as we are in this confused and confusing world, torn by conflicting voices without and conflicting tensions within, with hearts that seem star crossed and tensions that never go, is it possible in such a life, in such a world, to live with total lucidity? And if so, how?

0Q7uAKbsgpI

[ktlight]

I am surprised that there has been such little interest in this debate. I am aware that a lot of fear is expressed in this forum and here is an opportunity to understand something about fear. Take it, please, for your own sakes.

[greybeard]

I am surprised that there has been such little interest in this debate. I am aware that a lot of fear is expressed in this forum and here is an opportunity to understand something about fear. Take it, please, for your own sakes.

The problem is ego Kt--- people want to hold on to their opinions and the me story.
The moment I started to read the spiritual teachings of the various enlightened sages m ego went into rebellion, I had to keep reading and let the ego rebel and eventually the power within the spiritual teachings began to reduce the considerable hold the ego had on me.

I share what helped on this thread (see link) as do many other contributors
You are not alone Kt in your hopes and aspirations.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.

Chris


Ps only the ego can experience fear and negativity

[ktlight]

I am surprised that there has been such little interest in this debate. I am aware that a lot of fear is expressed in this forum and here is an opportunity to understand something about fear. Take it, please, for your own sakes.

The problem is ego Kt--- people want to hold on to their opinions and the me story.
The moment I started to read the spiritual teachings of the various enlightened sages m ego went into rebellion, I had to keep reading and let the ego rebel and eventually the power within the spiritual teachings began to reduce the considerable hold the ego had on me.

I share what helped on this thread (see link) as do many other contributors
You are not alone Kt in your hopes and aspirations.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.

Chris

Ps only the ego can experience fear and negativity

I understand this completely, Chris, and I see that you do too. This is why I posted this in particular. It could assist in realising the relationship of thought with ego. Whenever we come across a new way, this is what happens - the reaction of thought rebelling. But, if one just gets its nature, it can end it in a moment. Such a small price to end fear. And so simple.

[GCS1103]

This is the first time I have heard Krishnamurti speak. It was absolutely fascinating and now I am going to read more about him and watch some other videos. Thanks so much, ktlight, for introducing me to this man. I will have to spend much more time listening to him to really understand his wisdom.
As I was watching the conversation with him and Prof. Smith, I couldn't help smiling at the position the professor was in. If I was sitting in his seat, I don't think I would have been capable of carrying on a dialogue with Krishnamurti. I would have been in way over my head.;)

[Agape]

I love Krishnamurti if that's the right way to put it though ..he has piercing , clear intellect and deep insight to human mind and he's lived upto his intelligence and potential .
The only problem I ever faced with 'followers of Krishnamurti' is that most of them tend to be intellectuals overlooking the need of deep spiritual insight .
That's something Krishnamurti did not teach, he did not 'teach path' , he is perfect for people who have followed one path of their own and need to rectify their insights here and there .
He was sort of like Buddha of his time..preaching against the mainstream religion and doctrine, guiding you to self-reliance and self-discernment ..

There's path in it of course, inner path but the one is actually quite hard to open to others , unless you are teaching .

The danger for 'Western minds' is fall to nihilism , extreme skepticism , I think that's where people should not rely solely on Krishnamurti who came from very religious backgrounds and education system .

So what he speaks of ..or against ..internally ..you may not see on surface ...




:fish2:



Thanks for posting ..

[greybeard]

I love Krishnamurti if that's the right way to put it though ..he has piercing , clear intellect and deep insight to human mind and he's lived upto his intelligence and potential .
The only problem I ever faced with 'followers of Krishnamurti' is that most of them tend to be intellectuals overlooking the need of deep spiritual insight .
That's something Krishnamurti did not teach, he did not 'teach path' , he is perfect for people who have followed one path of their own and need to rectify their insights here and there .
He was sort of like Buddha of his time..preaching against the mainstream religion and doctrine, guiding you to self-reliance and self-discernment ..

There's path in it of course, inner path but the one is actually quite hard to open to others , unless you are teaching .

The danger for 'Western minds' is fall to nihilism , extreme skepticism , I think that's where people should not rely solely on Krishnamurti who came from very religious backgrounds and education system .

So what he speaks of ..or against ..internally ..you may not see on surface ...




:fish2:



Thanks for posting ..

Agree with you Agape
Unfortunately most are looking for an intellectual answer.
The intellect will only take you so far and that is good but then it becomes a barrier that one has to move beyond.
The danger is that KM appeals so much to the intelligence and he is so rational.
At one talk he stopped and asked "Do you want to know my secret" people had follow him for yeas answered "yes" he said.
"I dont mind" not many got it.

Im afraid there are not many followers of KM enlightened perhaps because they have taken on the identity of KM followers.
Nasargadatta, Ramana, had some success as has Tony Parsons in UK as testified to in this video


http://theavalonfiles.com/stream/Whos_Driving_The_Dreambus/index.html



KM teachings are brilliant but I feel it is a mistake to follower any teacher rather than the teaching which is uniform from enlightened sage to enlightened sage in essence. Only the presentation varies.

Regards
Chris

Trailer for the video already posted-- that can take some time to load.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AVQFWkfSls

[Agape]

The very beautiful thing about being brought up in traditional countries like India, well, there are not many yet remaining of that kind but had been in the past , old spiritual cultures ..is that you allowed to question everything .
Moreso, you are advised to question everything . You are free to question who you are, who is the other, is he god or dog, what is the nature of universe, where does it start and end ..
Even the sage of sages ..keeps his childlike mind and seeks for the answer in you. For the sage it becomes no more important to seek the answer in himself ..so he seeks for the answer in others ..and helps them to find their answers .

In the West ( so called , that's everywhere outside of India including modern parts of Japan ;) ) everyone rushes to answer , questioning is seen as sign of weekness.
Authorities , schools, parents, all the education system and estabilshment 'already knows' .

It's a wonder here to be with people who are seriously questioning life, themselves , and trying to find answers ..


It's always joy to be with people who are asking about something ...because if you are asking it usually comes from your own heart .


Children today are brought up thinking they know everything and being 'someone' , sometimes at the age of 7 . It's funny because they are still cute ..but what will become of these very self-conscious people who have the better answer just for everything ?



:angel:

[ktlight]

We were all children once upon a time and we are also parents. So our influence on our children will have some effect, without conditioning them. So, I see good things for them. But, I would give up tradition.

[Tony]

You are total lucidity. One could use the term 'empty lucidity' = totally clear.
But at the moment we are totally confused!
There is much sweeping to do.

[ktlight]

I love Krishnamurti if that's the right way to put it though ..he has piercing , clear intellect and deep insight to human mind and he's lived upto his intelligence and potential .
The only problem I ever faced with 'followers of Krishnamurti' is that most of them tend to be intellectuals overlooking the need of deep spiritual insight .
That's something Krishnamurti did not teach, he did not 'teach path' , he is perfect for people who have followed one path of their own and need to rectify their insights here and there .
He was sort of like Buddha of his time..preaching against the mainstream religion and doctrine, guiding you to self-reliance and self-discernment ..

There's path in it of course, inner path but the one is actually quite hard to open to others , unless you are teaching .

The danger for 'Western minds' is fall to nihilism , extreme skepticism , I think that's where people should not rely solely on Krishnamurti who came from very religious backgrounds and education system .

So what he speaks of ..or against ..internally ..you may not see on surface ...

:fish2:

Thanks for posting ..

K said truth is a pathless path, which we can take one step at a time. He also said there are no gurus, not to follow anyone. He encouraged men/women to take their own path to be a light unto themselves.

He kind of said that the inside is the same as the outside. We are the world and the world is us, there is no difference. He was a teacher who took the time to study the human condition, understood it and did his best to convey it to us. He would have refuted any effort to put him on any pedestal, he would have said 'you didn't get it.'

Did you know that K gave up his religious authority at the age of 28 when he determined not to go through with his inauguration to become the World Teacher? Yet he was a deeply religious person, not belonging to any organisation.

So, you can see here, Agape, that I disagree with your comments.

Maybe I haven't understood your communication.

[gooty64]

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" -Krishnamurti.

[Tony]

Just had a rethink. Total confusion is not at all bad.
There is:
Totally fixed
Totally confused
Totally lucid.

Totally confused is a fluid state, it has possibilities. Anyone in a fixed state one cannot really help much. Anyone in confused state can be helped, but one have to be slightly lucid to do so. If a confused person tries to help another confused person, well, it like the blind leading the blind. But of course one will not see much of that around here!

At the end we are all totally lucid, but choose confusion due to still holding onto fixed ideas about reality. So there we have it, it's all good news. If you are fixed, you can know become confused. If you are confused, you can become lucid. I'm not sure about staying in total lucidity.....could be a bit boring....nobody to talk to!!!!


All the best
Tony

[Agape]

I love Krishnamurti if that's the right way to put it though ..he has piercing , clear intellect and deep insight to human mind and he's lived upto his intelligence and potential .
The only problem I ever faced with 'followers of Krishnamurti' is that most of them tend to be intellectuals overlooking the need of deep spiritual insight .
That's something Krishnamurti did not teach, he did not 'teach path' , he is perfect for people who have followed one path of their own and need to rectify their insights here and there .
He was sort of like Buddha of his time..preaching against the mainstream religion and doctrine, guiding you to self-reliance and self-discernment ..

There's path in it of course, inner path but the one is actually quite hard to open to others , unless you are teaching .

The danger for 'Western minds' is fall to nihilism , extreme skepticism , I think that's where people should not rely solely on Krishnamurti who came from very religious backgrounds and education system .

So what he speaks of ..or against ..internally ..you may not see on surface ...

:fish2:

Thanks for posting ..

K said truth is a pathless path, which we can take one step at a time. He also said there are no gurus, not to follow anyone. He encouraged men/women to take their own path to be a light unto themselves.

He kind of said that the inside is the same as the outside. We are the world and the world is us, there is no difference. He was a teacher who took the time to study the human condition, understood it and did his best to convey it to us. He would have refuted any effort to put him on any pedestal, he would have said 'you didn't get it.'

Did you know that K gave up his religious authority at the age of 28 when he determined not to go through with his inauguration to become the World Teacher? Yet he was a deeply religious person, not belonging to any organisation.

So, you can see here, Agape, that I disagree with your comments.

Maybe I haven't understood your communication.


Not a problem , yes I've read his own biography in lenght and many writings . My comments were addressed somewhere to the space of experience , rather than something than can be debated in few words .

Agreement or disagreement in this specific case ...make no difference . Feel free ..


Free :angel:

[ktlight]

I love Krishnamurti if that's the right way to put it though ..he has piercing , clear intellect and deep insight to human mind and he's lived upto his intelligence and potential .
The only problem I ever faced with 'followers of Krishnamurti' is that most of them tend to be intellectuals overlooking the need of deep spiritual insight .
That's something Krishnamurti did not teach, he did not 'teach path' , he is perfect for people who have followed one path of their own and need to rectify their insights here and there .
He was sort of like Buddha of his time..preaching against the mainstream religion and doctrine, guiding you to self-reliance and self-discernment ..

There's path in it of course, inner path but the one is actually quite hard to open to others , unless you are teaching .

The danger for 'Western minds' is fall to nihilism , extreme skepticism , I think that's where people should not rely solely on Krishnamurti who came from very religious backgrounds and education system .

So what he speaks of ..or against ..internally ..you may not see on surface ...

:fish2:

Thanks for posting ..

K said truth is a pathless path, which we can take one step at a time. He also said there are no gurus, not to follow anyone. He encouraged men/women to take their own path to be a light unto themselves.

He kind of said that the inside is the same as the outside. We are the world and the world is us, there is no difference. He was a teacher who took the time to study the human condition, understood it and did his best to convey it to us. He would have refuted any effort to put him on any pedestal, he would have said 'you didn't get it.'

Did you know that K gave up his religious authority at the age of 28 when he determined not to go through with his inauguration to become the World Teacher? Yet he was a deeply religious person, not belonging to any organisation.

So, you can see here, Agape, that I disagree with your comments.

Maybe I haven't understood your communication.

Not a problem , yes I've read his own biography in lenght and many writings . My comments were addressed somewhere to the space of experience , rather than something than can be debated in few words .

Agreement or disagreement in this specific case ...make no difference . Feel free ..
Free :angel:

Agape's advice -
I think that's where people should not rely solely on Krishnamurti who came from very religious backgrounds and education system .

Didn't K state to not follow ANYONE, including himself. Didn't he state that we need to take out own steps, create our own path. Who else in the world has provided such good education for mankind. And, didn't he resign from religion at the age of 28.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Just had a rethink. Total confusion is not at all bad.
There is:
Totally fixed
Totally confused
Totally lucid.


Totally fixed = dead
Totally confused = as is on this planet
Totally lucid = as is when the work is done

[loveandgratitude]

When living in India I had the pleasure of attending many of his talks and also the greatest fortune of meeting with him in a group for tea.
His amazing presence was astounding. In the beginning of his talks he would request that no applause after he finished. He would simply get up and quietly exit the stage as a humble spirit leaving the audience in an ambience of peace.

[Anchor]

I am surprised that there has been such little interest in this debate. I am aware that a lot of fear is expressed in this forum and here is an opportunity to understand something about fear. Take it, please, for your own sakes.

Your passion is quite inspiring. Do not underestimate the value of your presenting these opportunities for people through your posting efforts. Dont get too upset if they dont necessarily attract comments within the first few hours - especially as the video is over one hour long. I know time is basically an illusion, but for things like this the basic sequence is going to take more than a few days for stuff like this to sink in :)

I'd say Krishnamurti has had a big, massive in fact, impact on my life and realization of certain things.

I have not seen this particular debate and I am downloading it now for train viewing.

In fact, the youtube channel KrishnamurtiArchive (http://www.youtube.com/user/KrishnamurtiArchive) is new to me as well, very worth a browse - thanks for that as well.

Thanks!