Sirius and the Dogon: A Conspiracy Myth?

[christian]

I just came across the fact, that the guy called Griaule, who was the first to allegedly get the information from the Dogon, that they knew Sirius B and C, was interviewing the Dogon in a very suggestive manner, putting words in their mouths. Another source of the Dogon-Sirius myth is Robert Temple's famous "The Sirius Mystery", which is highly influenced by his mentor Arthur Young's belief in a 'Council of Nine', which Young channeled, another not very 'scientific' approach. A later scientist, Walter van Beek, who allegedly wanted to back up the initial claims of Griaule, worked with the Dogon for a decade and could not confirm a genuine knowledge among the Dogon about the Sirius star system, now this is my very short summary of the problem, because not only since Kerry made an interview with two members of the Dogon tribe, not only since David Icke mentioned this story in his last book, it is often taken for granted, that the Dogon had this knowledge.

Please read this information, which makes the point a little more detailed:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/universo/esp_sirio10.htm

However, the Dogon seem to have had the lore, that amphibian Dolphin-like creatures came down to them in fiery vessels, again a well written summary from biblioteca pleyades:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_dogon04.htm

By the way, the question of whether Sirius C exists or not, has not been conclusively proven one way or the other so far.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1995A&A...299..621B

So any opinions, how could it happen, that the Sirius-Dogon story spread so far among alternative researchers, is there any truth to it or is it just make-belief?

[K626]

I just came across the fact, that the guy called Griaule, who was the first to allegedly get the information from the Dogon, that they knew Sirius B and C, was interviewing the Dogon in a very suggestive manner, putting words in their mouths. Another source of the Dogon-Sirius myth is Robert Temple's famous "The Sirius Mystery", which is highly influenced by his mentor Arthur Young's belief in a 'Council of Nine', which Young channeled, another not very 'scientific' approach. A later scientist, Walter van Beek, who allegedly wanted to back up the initial claims of Griaule, worked with the Dogon for a decade and could not confirm a genuine knowledge among the Dogon about the Sirius star system, now this is my very short summary of the problem, because not only since Kerry made an interview with two members of the Dogon tribe, not only since David Icke mentioned this story in his last book, it is often taken for granted, that the Dogon had this knowledge.

Please read this information, which makes the point a little more detailed:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/universo/esp_sirio10.htm

However, the Dogon seem to have had the lore, that amphibian Dolphin-like creatures came down to them in fiery vessels, again a well written summary from biblioteca pleyades:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_dogon04.htm

By the way, the question of whether Sirius C exists or not, has not been conclusively proven one way or the other so far.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1995A&A...299..621B

So any opinions, how could it happen, that the Sirius-Dogon story spread so far among alternative researchers, is there any truth to it or is it just make-belief?

The story was originally told to Belgian missionaires irrc. Back in the day long before there was any kind of alternative community lol...

love

K

[christian]

The story was originally told to Belgian missionaires irrc. Back in the day long before there was any kind of alternative community lol...

irrc?

Trying to actually shed a light on how it came about:
Who were those missionaries?
When did they go there?
How could they have communicated such concepts?
Where is it documented?

I don't find anything about those missionaries on google and neither Griaule, nor Temple, nor van Beek ever mentioned them...

[OnyxKnight]

I just came across the fact, that the guy called Griaule, who was the first to allegedly get the information from the Dogon, that they knew Sirius B and C, was interviewing the Dogon in a very suggestive manner, putting words in their mouths. Another source of the Dogon-Sirius myth is Robert Temple's famous "The Sirius Mystery", which is highly influenced by his mentor Arthur Young's belief in a 'Council of Nine', which Young channeled, another not very 'scientific' approach. A later scientist, Walter van Beek, who allegedly wanted to back up the initial claims of Griaule, worked with the Dogon for a decade and could not confirm a genuine knowledge among the Dogon about the Sirius star system, now this is my very short summary of the problem, because not only since Kerry made an interview with two members of the Dogon tribe, not only since David Icke mentioned this story in his last book, it is often taken for granted, that the Dogon had this knowledge.

Please read this information, which makes the point a little more detailed:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/universo/esp_sirio10.htm

However, the Dogon seem to have had the lore, that amphibian Dolphin-like creatures came down to them in fiery vessels, again a well written summary from biblioteca pleyades:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_dogon04.htm

By the way, the question of whether Sirius C exists or not, has not been conclusively proven one way or the other so far.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1995A&A...299..621B

So any opinions, how could it happen, that the Sirius-Dogon story spread so far among alternative researchers, is there any truth to it or is it just make-belief?

Are you circumventing the fact that they had to know something about Sirius, astronomy-wise, for Griaule to be interested in the first place?

I would hardly call this a myth.

[Mark]

I checked out all three resources, very interesting especially the first one. Looks like a bunch of scientists gossiping and a few with old scores to settle to me. Muddying the waters ... there's really no telling I suppose unless one does the primary research themselves and creates questions of a sufficiently broad yet multi-directionally pointed questions to get at the desired information. Revisionists have a tough job and intentions have to be questioned. Many tropes in the 'New Age' can be questioned in this manner I wonder why this one was chosen for such intense scrutiny.

[OnyxKnight]

The story was originally told to Belgian missionaires irrc. Back in the day long before there was any kind of alternative community lol...

love

K

Are you suggesting that religious people were teaching the Dogon detailed astronomy, like the Sirius system and all the juicy details about it, that even today are subject to scientific inquiry and skepticism, and are not yet confirmed?

How did these Christians got that knowledge then?

Anybody remembers Jordano Bruno? That's what religious people thought of science, astronomy being part of it too.

Its just a lame attempt at explaining how the Dogon got that knowledge from, but couldn't place anyone else there, since christian missionaries were the only one who visited the Dogon, few centuries ago.

[K626]

The story was originally told to Belgian missionaires irrc. Back in the day long before there was any kind of alternative community lol...

love

K

Are you suggesting that religious people were teaching the Dogon detailed astronomy, like the Sirius system and all the juicy details about it, that even today are subject to scientific inquiry and skepticism, and are not yet confirmed?

How did these Christians got that knowledge then?

Anybody remembers Jordano Bruno? That's what religious people thought of science, astronomy being part of it too.

Its just a lame attempt at explaining how the Dogon got that knowledge from, but couldn't place anyone else there, since christian missionaries were the only one who visited the Dogon, few centuries ago.

Think the phrase "it was told TO" is the key here mate. ;)

The missionaries were going on about the usual stuff they do when converting.. The DOGON replied with a level of universal understanding and mythology that left the said missonaires flummoxed.

love

K

¤=[Post Update]=¤




The story was originally told to Belgian missionaires irrc. Back in the day long before there was any kind of alternative community lol...

irrc?

Trying to actually shed a light on how it came about:
Who were those missionaries?
When did they go there?
How could they have communicated such concepts?
Where is it documented?

I don't find anything about those missionaries on google and neither Griaule, nor Temple, nor van Beek ever mentioned them...

(iirc-If I remember correctly).

The story is well documented in various anthropolocial books written later and by others.

The Dogon shamen believe in the 'fish people' who also gave them other knowledge about dream states and so on...

love

K

[OnyxKnight]

Think the phrase "it was told TO" is the key here mate. ;)

The missionaries were going on about the usual stuff they do when converting.. The DOGON replied with a level of universal understanding and mythology that left the said missonaires flummoxed.

love

K

Sorry! .... Sorry lol.

I guess misread your post there. As I read it, it sounded like you are saying the missionaries told the Dogon that stuff. I'll pay more attention now lol.

[K626]

Think the phrase "it was told TO" is the key here mate. ;)

The missionaries were going on about the usual stuff they do when converting.. The DOGON replied with a level of universal understanding and mythology that left the said missonaires flummoxed.

love

K

Sorry! .... Sorry lol.

I guess misread your post there. As I read it, it sounded like you are saying the missionaries told the Dogon that stuff. I'll pay more attention now lol.

Ha ha...Pretty sure missionaries at the time knew not very much about nothing...

love

K

African tribal culture as was the Indus valley culture was way ahead of western counterparts with regard to an understanding of the working of the universe. The West (white people) are basically obsessed with a mechanical perspective (things must work within a given structure)...All ancient myths however are more to do with dreams, visions and the inner world of the human experience. It is more in league with a 'participatory universe' an understanding that the universe and man work within a feeback loop: We see (and understand) what we believe. Projection.

love

K

[Poly Hedra]

Funilly enough a travel show with Michael Palin called Sahara (its great too) and he goes to meet Dogon people and spend time in their village. They tell him about their creation story. here is a link to the full hour- long episode. He meets the Dogon @ 27:10

http://www.webislam.com/?idv=1645

[christian]

Are you circumventing the fact that they had to know something about Sirius, astronomy-wise, for Griaule to be interested in the first place?

The way I read it, Griaule was a hobby astronomer, who was specially intrigued by Sirius and a possibly existing Sirius C and through his way of questioning the Dogon, he talked them into saying "the nommos came from Sirius and we know Sirius B and C".


there's really no telling I suppose unless one does the primary research themselves

I thought maybe there is some evidence I haven't discovered yet.


Many tropes in the 'New Age' can be questioned in this manner I wonder why this one was chosen for such intense scrutiny.

All should be questioned and the Dogon-Sirius topic was not really questioned with intense scrutiny, I figured, it's not like there are legions of debunkers. Seems like it took 2 guys to create a myth and another to debunk it, nevertheless Griaule's story is still widely repeated and believed.



The story is well documented in various anthropolocial books written later and by others.

Can you name any?


The Dogon shamen believe in the 'fish people' who also gave them other knowledge about dream states and so on...

The lore about the fish people coming from space is confirmed, the connection to Sirius is not.

[K626]

Are you circumventing the fact that they had to know something about Sirius, astronomy-wise, for Griaule to be interested in the first place?

The way I read it, Griaule was a hobby astronomer, who was specially intrigued by Sirius and a possibly existing Sirius C and through his way of questioning the Dogon, he talked them into saying "the nommos came from Sirius and we know Sirius B and C".


there's really no telling I suppose unless one does the primary research themselves

I thought maybe there is some evidence I haven't discovered yet.


Many tropes in the 'New Age' can be questioned in this manner I wonder why this one was chosen for such intense scrutiny.

All should be questioned and the Dogon-Sirius topic was not really questioned with intense scrutiny, I figured, it's not like there are legions of debunkers. Seems like it took 2 guys to create a myth and another to debunk it, nevertheless Griaule's story is still widely repeated and believed.



The story is well documented in various anthropolocial books written later and by others.

Can you name any?


The Dogon shamen believe in the 'fish people' who also gave them other knowledge about dream states and so on...

The lore about the fish people coming from space is confirmed, the connection to Sirius is not.

Not sure what your angle is here? lol

If the Dogon were talking about Sirus B when most of Europe was starving or living in caves, what does it matter how concrete the documentation was??

Most European mythology and for certain the bible is completely made up.

Peace

K

[OnyxKnight]

The way I read it, Griaule was a hobby astronomer, who was specially intrigued by Sirius and a possibly existing Sirius C and through his way of questioning the Dogon, he talked them into saying "the nommos came from Sirius and we know Sirius B and C"

I'm pulled back again to my original argument - Why the Dogon and not somebody else? One can easily use Sirius for another myth confirmation.

His interest in the Dogon specifically had to be based on something that intrigued him as an astronomer. And the fact that he was interested in Sirius is probably what draw him into interviewing these people.

[K626]

You have to wonder why the Dogon would waste their time (isolated as a tribe as they were) making up ****...Especially for the benefit of pesky Europeans - late commers to the game by any measure. :)

Peace

K

[Cidersomerset]

Hi Chiquetet... I don't know wether they really have had contactact with ET's in the past we did a thread about this back along but this old vid which you have probably seen suggests their info in not earthly.They have a pretty good knowledge of the solar system and that a distant Star/Planet Portolo known as a seed ,orbits the star Sirius in the constilation canis major.

They preform this ceromony every 50 years and it goes back along time before missionaries, pre Egyption they suggest......But like all anciant alian theories is Myth, history or fable....

If you look at the Truth about Troy thread TheOne put up a few days ago .The Horizon programme confirmed that Homers story of Troy was probably real ( minus the Helen bit )with new scientific data complementing the archaelogy , So from that point of view as I said on that thread , it opens a whole new light on myths and legends.....Cheers steve


XupNytuA1ds


91-tMdDCfd4

[christian]

Not sure what your angle is here? lol

If the Dogon were talking about Sirus B when most of Europe was starving or living in caves, what does it matter how concrete the documentation was??


Griaule went to Africa around 1930, the Europeans where hardly starving in caves then. My angle is, since Griaule's research seems to be flawed, is there any other information to back up the Sirius connection?


You have to wonder why the Dogon would waste their time (isolated as a tribe as they were) making up ****...Especially for the benefit of pesky Europeans - late commers to the game by any measure. :)

They were not talking about Sirius B it seems. Griaule put those words in their mouths, imagine a Frenchman in Africa almost 100 years ago "Are you from Sirius? Siiiriiuuus?!" - "What's he talking about? Let's just say yes to keep on with something constuctive."



I'm pulled back again to my original argument - Why the Dogon and not somebody else? One can easily use Sirius for another myth confirmation.

His interest in the Dogon specifically had to be based on something that intrigued him as an astronomer. And the fact that he was interested in Sirius is probably what draw him into interviewing these people.

Before he visited the Dogon, he studied ethnology, learned two African languages spoken in East Africa in Ethiopa and Eritrea. His first journey to Africa was to Ethiopia. On his second journey to Africa he ventured from Dakar to Djibouti and got to the Dogon on his way. He later came back to the Dogon to study more. So he might have had the idea, that he stumbled on something very important, which is true, considering the fish-people lore. But the Sirius connection seems not to be genuine, from what I found, yet it is still repeated as true, hence I started this thread to examine the alleged Sirius connection.

[K626]

Not sure what your angle is here? lol

If the Dogon were talking about Sirus B when most of Europe was starving or living in caves, what does it matter how concrete the documentation was??


Griaule went to Africa around 1930, the Europeans where hardly starving in caves then. My angle is, since Griaule's researche seems to be flawed, is there any other information to back up the Sirius connection?


You have to wonder why the Dogon would waste their time (isolated as a tribe as they were) making up ****...Especially for the benefit of pesky Europeans - late commers to the game by any measure. :)

They were not talking about Sirius B it seems. Griaule put those words in their mouths, imagine a Frenchman in Africa almost 100 years ago "Are you from Sirius? Siiiriiuuus?!" - "What's he talking about? Let's just say yes to keep on with something constuctive."



I'm pulled back again to my original argument - Why the Dogon and not somebody else? One can easily use Sirius for another myth confirmation.

His interest in the Dogon specifically had to be based on something that intrigued him as an astronomer. And the fact that he was interested in Sirius is probably what draw him into interviewing these people.

Before he visited the Dogon, he studied ethnology, learned two African languages spoken in East Africa in Ethiopa and Eritrea. His first journey to Africa was to Ethiopia. On his second journey to Africa he ventured from Dakar to Djibouti and got to the Dogon on his way. He later came back to the Dogon to study more. So he might have had the idea, that he stumbled on something very important, which is true, considering the fish-people lore. But the Sirius connection seems not to be genuine, from what I found, yet it is still repeated as true, hence I started this thread to examine the alleged Sirius connection.

It's a good thread and I was only joking about the caves.

Think about this a minute. How far back does the myth of the Nommo go?

Why was original man seeded in Africa?

Where do the oldest believers in Judaism live? Are they black?

Was christ black?

What about Sumer and Atlantis? Sumerians were definitely brown or dark skinned.....

You have to be careful when bringing a western (predominantly white) frame of textuality and referance (under the guise of pseudo science) over any kind of old world myth especially those hidden and disregarded over time by Eurocentricism.

Hitler sent expedtions to find the ancient aryans in Tibet were they white?

Food for thought.

The whole Dogon thing simly can't be boiled down to a few Europeans TALKING DOWN or giving knowledge to some Africans...lol :mod:

love

K

[Cidersomerset]

The anciant alian take on the history channel references possible Egyption links to Ahkanatan and mentions Griaule then goes on to wonder how they knew about sirius B....

They mention that they may have picked it up from modern scientist as the reports Chiquetet put up, so take your pick , I think they are probably older from the Egyption

astronomy schools and embelished either by ET visitation or some other knowledge we have yet to find......

k56JeOKb5FM

[christian]

How far back does the myth of the Nommo go?

[...]

The whole Dogon thing simly can't be boiled down to a few Europeans TALKING DOWN or giving knowledge to some Africans...lol :mod:

I don't know how far that goes back, let's just assume the story is true, there came fish-men from outer space and the story is very old.

Now I don't want to adress your other (surely interesting) questions, but stay on topic here: Where is actual evidence, that the Dogon had a sophisticated knowledge of the solar system, especially of the Sirius star sytem?

To repeat myself, it seems that Griaule found out something very important, when he discovered the Dogon stories of an alien race, but he seemed to have overimposed his own fascination for Sirius onto the Dogon myth of the fish-men, creating the story, that those came from Sirius and claiming the Dogon knew this and said so.

[christian]

Funilly enough a travel show with Michael Palin called Sahara (its great too) and he goes to meet Dogon people and spend time in their village. They tell him about their creation story. here is a link to the full hour- long episode. He meets the Dogon @ 27:10

http://www.webislam.com/?idv=1645

Thanks, there is no mention of the fish people strangely, but about half-serpent people :biggrin1: No infos about Sirius.


Hi Chiquetet... I don't know wether they really have had contactact with ET's in the past we did a thread about this back along but this old vid which you have probably seen suggests their info in not earthly.They have a pretty good knowledge of the solar system and that a distant Star/Planet Portolo known as a seed ,orbits the star Sirius in the constilation canis major.

They preform this ceromony every 50 years

50 years, like Sirius B's orbit around Sirius. Now that's some interesting piece of information. Their knowledge about the cosmos was 'proven' in this clip via showing some guy drawing a sketch and the voiceover telling, that the Dogon knew about the rings of Saturn and of Sirius B, I'm not saying it's bollocks, it may be entirely as portrayed there, I appreciate your input, I just wonder if there is something more 'scientific'.

[Cidersomerset]

Well David Sereda researched it using info from two French astronomers findings from 1995/7 but actual scientific facts maybe hard to find. If NASA Knows something I don't think they will tell us....

Then he goes onto theorise about water balls hitting the earths ozone layer from out of space by the Nomos to help heal it !!!.......

fjDIrFNPLIs

CRv9cdG82bY

May not be scientific but interresting cheers steve..

[christian]

The anciant alian take on the history channel references possible Egyption links to Ahkanatan and mentions Griaule then goes on to wonder how they knew about sirius B....

They mention that they may have picked it up from modern scientist as the reports Chiquetet put up, so take your pick , I think they are probably older from the Egyption

astronomy schools and embelished either by ET visitation or some other knowledge we have yet to find......

Thanks again, tellingly a good piece of information again through YouTube. Have to take it with a grain of salt, e.g. the line "they have a festival celebrating the E.T. visitation, there they got masks, which date back a very long time ago, to when this festival began" :biggrin1: The E.T. lore is pretty obvious anyways and this instrument illustrating the orbit of Sirius A, B & C is interesting as well.

Is all this sufficient, to say that the Dogon must have known about Sirius B?

So might it be, that van Beek was a disinfo agent or was he just failing in backing up Griaule's findings?

[Cidersomerset]

Your right Chiquetet it goes back to do you believe in oral traditions or only the written word ...Scientists are only right until the next discovery...I was listening to a discusion between scientists and it was funny if I can remember where it was I'l post it...But basically they were saying science is nonsence... Its constantly pushed forward by proving the previous scientific theories were wrong and keeping their grant money comming in , so don't rely on science to to solve the mysteries of the universe it will be your conciuosness that will make it all clear in the end, and I am not religious or esoteric just on a journey.....Steve

BBC Scientists claim life after death, other scientists refute it..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/986177.stm

[Mark]

Your right Chiquetet it goes back to do you believe in oral traditions or only the written word ...Scientists are only right until the next discovery...I was listening to a discusion between scientists and it was funny if I can remember where it was I'l post it...But basically they were saying science is nonsence... Its constantly pushed forward by proving the previous scientific theories were wrong and keeping their grant money comming in , so don't rely on science to to solve the mysteriuos of the universe it will be your conciuosness that will make it all clear in the end, and I am not religious or esoteric just on a journey.....Steve

BBC Today Scientist claim life after death, other scientists refute it..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/986177.stm


I have to agree. I was ABD in a PhD program only had to finish my dissertation to complete it but the in-fighting and politics were so terrible I was deeply disillusioned and came to a life crisis about my future path. I made the decision not to follow that path, as my experience showed me how subjective and money-driven so called empirical science really is. And don't even get me started on statistics. As far as this discussion is concerned, I agree that everything has to be checked out numerous times, the evidence must be examined, but I can't help but look at the methods of those involved in this and see it for exactly what is mentioned in this quote, men engaged in one-upsmanship ostensibly to move science forward but serving their own objectives more directly.

Regarding how this applies to the original postings, well, questions have been raised some answered others obscured, as is generally the case in scientific endeavor. The lack of clarity is usual and this particular topic has become a standard. What is the agenda in refuting it? Who is funding the research? What is an alternative proposition? And, again, why this particular standard? The first link given is to a page that speaks about the "Sirian Lie" ... it is good to be suspicious and to seek new information and to clarify old information, but at the same time it is also good to be aware of underlying motivations as well.

[<8>]

I found this,,,

Dagon, the fish god.
Note the mouth-shaped hat. Compare to the two-horned mitre
worn by the Pope and Church officials today.
Learn more about this by clicking here.... http://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/default.htm

http://www.thetruthishere.com/sitebuilder/images/dagon-230x545.jpg http://www.thetruthishere.com/sitebuilder/images/pope-x-225x245.jpg

It wouldn't surprise me at all if there is a connection, and that the Dogon story are true...

P.s The master seems to think its true...:P

[Cidersomerset]

Yes Rahkyt... Lies Damn Lies and statistics....The whole world seems to be governed by them..LOL...Cheers Steve

[Cidersomerset]

Thats right <8> I did not go there because it is not scientific but Freeman has researched Sirius and its very interesting and entertaining he talks about the 'Mer folk' from sirius and the Egyption connection for anyone looking in....

gQHUH6HR9Yc


Unfortunately I have to go to bed have to be up 5.30am to go to work have a good discussion cheers Steve..

[Atlas]

Thank you OP, I posted this on another thread:



This idea of a connection with Sirius of course is also promoted in UFOlogy (and by the African Dogon tribe!),...By the time Temple had published the second edition of The Sirius Mystery in 1998, the whole question of the Dogon’s apparently inexplicable knowledge of Sirius had been blown apart. No-one had questioned Griaule and Dieterlen’s findings until the early 1990s. And this is where the problems for the hypothesis began.

In 1991, Van Beek led a team of anthropologists to Mali and declared that they found absolutely no trace of the detailed Sirius lore reported by the French anthropologists (The Dogon Restudied: A Field Evaluation of the Work of Marcel Griaule (http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/Grialle%20Sirius%20Dogon.pdf)). Griaule claimed that about 15 per cent of the Dogon tribe possessed this secret knowledge, but Van Beek could find no trace of it in the decade he spent with the Dogon.

As Peter James and Nick Thorpe point out, Griaule took star maps along with him on his field trips as a way of prompting his informants to divulge their knowledge of the stars. Griaule himself was aware of the discovery of Sirius B and in the 1920s – before he visited the Dogon – there were also unconfirmed sightings of Sirius C. The Dogon were well aware of the brightest star in the sky but, as Van Beek learned, they do not call it sigu tolo, as Griaule claimed, but dana tolo. To quote James and Thorpe: “As for Sirius B, only Griaule’s informants had ever heard of it.”

Van Beek actually spoke to some of Griaule’s original informants; he noted that


“though they do speak about sigu tolo [interpreted by Griaule as their name for Sirius itself], they disagree completely with each other as to which star is meant; for some, it is an invisible star that should rise to announce the sigu [festival], for another it is Venus that, through a different position, appears as sigu tolo. All agree, however, that they learned about the star from Griaule.”(Source: philipcoppens.com/dogonshame (http://www.philipcoppens.com/dogonshame.html))

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 2004, Van Beek wrote (Haunting Griaule: Experiences from the Restudy of the Dogon (http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/van%20Beek%20Haunting%20Griaule%20Experience%20from%20Restudy%20of%20the%20Dogon.pdf)):


Griaule’s ethnography proved to be incoherent. Griaule’s later publications, which incidentally never could match his first success nor receive the wide circulation and renown of Ogotemmelli, depicted yet another Dogon culture. The posthumously published Le Renard pale (Griaule/Dieterlen 1956) and the articles leading up to it (Griaule 1954, Griaule/Dieterlen 1950) came up with even “deeper” myths, systems of classification, and a totally different creation story, at least with a totally different construction of the myth. These two sets of creation myths, of 1948 and 1956, are totally inconsistent with each other…After years spent becoming accepted by the Dogon, Van Beek began to carefully expose them to the ideas that Griaule had “learned” from Ogotemmelli, only to have his Dogon friends burst out laughing! One of the major services is van Beek’s lengthy descriptions (with illustrations) of how Griaule came to create the myths of the Dogon himself (which were uncritically absorbed by Temple and passed on to the populace in his book). Basically, there was a good amount of cultural mis-communication.

The foundation of Robert Temple’s Sirius Mystery (and the nonsense that has accrued to it since its publication) consists of three conversations with one Dogon tribesman, Ogotemmêli, whose ideas differ from all subsequent Dogon elders interviewed to date. (Source: michaelsheiser.com/the-sirius-mystery (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2011/06/the-sirius-mystery-you-dont-columbo-for-this-one/))



As ought to have been obvious from the outset, Griaule and Dieterlen’s reliance on a single informant severely compromises the validity of their data. It seems that Griaule, a scientist, wanted to attribute to earlier civilisations more knowledge than they actually possessed.



According to Thomas Bullard, van Beek speculates that Griaule "wished to affirm the complexity of African religions and questioned his informants in such a forceful leading manner that they created new myths by confabulation." Griaule either informed the Dogon of Sirius B or "he misinterpreted their references to other visible stars near Sirius as recognition of the invisible companion"



Temple has never properly responded to these charges. In his latest book, The Crystal Sun, Temple briefly repeats his earlier claim that the Dogon knew Sirius A and B, and seems blissfully unaware of these criticisms. This is worse than pseudoscience. What do you call it when someone's error is pointed out - again and again and again - and they simply fail to acknowledge the criticism? (Source: grahamhancock.com/phorum (http://www.grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=85285&t=85285))