Beyond Consciousness

[Tony]

BEYOND CONSCIOUSNESS.

There is an inherent problem with using words: they are used too much! Meanings get fixated upon, words are devalued, and actual experience gets lost. So there is a problem for me, when placing before you a realisation, without the reader making assumptions or speculations and thereby closing down their genuine experience. I understand this because we all do it...

However, absolute truth has to stand up to the absolute closest unbiased scrutiny, so please do not immediately accept or reject what is being described. Your response will be totally respected.
The answer that is being offered is so simple and so subtle that it is easily missed, unless you have asked questions. I've already tried this out on people, and have been met with a nodding, vacant stare...!

The answer needs to address the external and the internal aspects of our lives.
The question is, “What drives those who think that they drive the planet?”
The answer is that it is the same force that drives us!
The beings who think they are in charge are being driven by the same force as drives us: it is Consciousness!

This will probably sound surprising. There are two forces in this universe - enlightened and endarkened. It's ok to call them positive and negative. The endarkened forces one could call “demons”, and they know all about consciousness. Consciousness is in all sentient beings. It is ego...it's all about me! However, this is not at all bad news, because being aware of the demons will be of help on our journey. The dark and the light forces can be made to work together, much to the dismay of the dark...they cannot help themselves.

This post is called Beyond Consciousness.
This where we have to go, or rather, this is where we are - naturally.
There are levels of understanding (a change in perception), and I will reveal that, though simple, there is much work to do.

Our being has three elements to it.
It is Conscious and it is Pure.
The outcome of this unity of consciousness and purity is unconfined capacity (Compassion).
“Pure” is sometimes translated as Empty essence. This Emptiness has qualities of lucidity, and is untainted, non-fabricated clarity.

Beyond consciousness is Emptiness.
There are two truths - relative and absolute. The seeming and the real.
Consciousness is relative truth and Emptiness is absolute truth.
We have to know how to dance with these two truths.
We could say we need to learn how to utilise the negative and the positive in the universe.
That does not mean that one is right and the other wrong: it is just how it is.
It's only when we conceptually fixate on the positive and negative that judgements take place, and then we create good and bad.

The 'elite' are driven, and cannot understand Emptiness!
The proof of this lies within ourselves.
Now we have to test this out.
Consciousness is to do with being aware - aware of attraction and repulsion. It is to do with perceiver and perceived, this and that, duality. It is not Pure Perception!
The elite - and our own consciousness – are exaggerated manifestations of ego.
They cannot understand how everyone cannot want everything, because consciousness believes everything to be real.
Emptiness just has no place in conceptual mind.
When we are controlled or driven by our fixations, we too lose all sense of our pure natural state - our lucid clear light!

Now we come to something you may find disturbing. This is where I may sound a little unconventional...and I am slightly reluctant to suggest this...

We do not have an original thought in our heads. They have all been placed there.
However, we do have free will, and can join up the dots in our own unique way - or just let the thoughts be.
This is equivalent to analytical meditation and pure meditation. Both are necessary.

We are being transmitted to all the time, by both enlightened beings and endarkened beings.
If I were an enlightened being, I'd be wishing you enlightenment all the time and sending out silent blessing to you. There is no special 'time' - you just have to open your door, but unfortunately the door is closed because of strongly held onto concepts.
However, the endarkened messages get through because they are so seductive, telling you that you are already one with the universe, so you don't have to do anything. It's a seductive message. They want us to stay in ignorance.

Leaning is painful. We have a lot to cut through, but it is not doom and gloom.
The evil that is creating fear actually helps to intensify the path and light it up. The more seriously we take this, the more we can have compassion for everyone around us: it becomes like a symbolic teacher, and in some strange way, it also becomes less “serious” because we clearly see what is going on.

Through meditation, we learn not to react, and therefore don't conform to their mind games.
We must learn to stop holding on to the thoughts that are placed in our minds: we believe that these thoughts are 'us' – which they clearly are not.

Remember: empty essence cannot be destroyed. No thing can have an effect on emptiness.

Once we experience the spaciousness and confidence of what we truly are, we start to become healthy human beings who can empathise with how others might feel, because we have all been there.

There is much to discuss. My retreat helped joined up many dots, but I'll stop here to wait for your responses.
Please be mindful that there are many subtleties to be addressed. There may be thoughtful postings that others may wish to pursue, so please try not to go too far off subject as it can destroy the continuity of the thread for others to follow later.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything privately, please do. I'm interested in your experience, more than what you have read or told.

Meditation and a clear quiet mind is the key to knowing.
Concepts cannot be eliminated with another concept.

PS I am in transit at the moment, and can only respond sporadically until next week. The retreat was tough going, but we covered all aspects of meditation from simple to more advanced, and as a student, I look forward to sharing with you (if you are interested!).

All the best
Tony

[greybeard]

Welcome back my friend.
Pm me how the retreat went please
Chris

[Fred Steeves]

Hey Tony, welcome back you wascly wabbit...We saved yer seat fer ya...

Cheers,
Fred

[Mark]

hi tony what an interesting posting, especially the part about thoughts not being original. sometimes i have thoughts that are clearly not my own, other times i experience thoughts that may come from something that i'm experiencing in the moment but that seem to have been placed there. these two different types of thoughts display a similar 'tone', yet one is more cunning than the other. before i started meditating i doubt it would have been possible for me to even believe this was possible as we generally consider everything in our head to be ours until we learn that there are other possibilities. would you define the difference between these two types of implanted thoughts as being general versus specific? or are they all specific, just some are more purposefully designed to get you going in a particular direction?

i also thought your point about the elite was a good one to. to see them as a manifestation of extreme egocentricity or a pure expression of material consciousness. do you think that there is a portion of those elite who seek the pure material good by any means necessary? meaning, they are enlightened, yet they seek the best outcome for the planet, irregardless of what seeming atrocities they have to commit?

[ktlight]

Pie'n'eal, So glad you are back.

What you say is more or less true. I agree that you will have difficulty in conveying the essence, it seems as if the general populous is kind of deaf or blind, or both. I got it immediately. Maybe I'm already there. And words are not the thing. Must say, though, I came to it on my own path, with a little help from friends.

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

BEYOND CONSCIOUSNESS.
The retreat was tough going, but we covered all aspects of meditation from simple to more advanced, and as a student, I look forward to sharing with you (if you are interested!).

All the best
Tony


YES!
please :)

Welcome back.

Thoroughly enjoyed that. Thank you.
The way I understood it is :-
We are like a lake.
At the very bottom it is quiet and tranquil. That is our essence. That is the absolute truth.
On the surface is moving energy, consciousness, thought, concepts, ego etc. That is our character/personality. That is the relative truth.
You cannot have one without the other. ie. no bottom without top.
The bottom stays the same but the surface changes, due to weather, boats, planes, concepts, fish. :fish: :biggrin1:
Through meditation we learn more to ignore the surface noise and return to the stillness that is never affected.

Hope I got that right. Looking forward to more.

[Tony]

hi tony what an interesting posting, especially the part about thoughts not being original. sometimes i have thoughts that are clearly not my own, other times i experience thoughts that may come from something that i'm experiencing in the moment but that seem to have been placed there. these two different types of thoughts display a similar 'tone', yet one is more cunning than the other. before i started meditating i doubt it would have been possible for me to even believe this was possible as we generally consider everything in our head to be ours until we learn that there are other possibilities. would you define the difference between these two types of implanted thoughts as being general versus specific? or are they all specific, just some are more purposefully designed to get you going in a particular direction?

i also thought your point about the elite was a good one to. to see them as a manifestation of extreme egocentricity or a pure expression of material consciousness. do you think that there is a portion of those elite who seek the pure material good by any means necessary? meaning, they are enlightened, yet they seek the best outcome for the planet, irregardless of what seeming atrocities they have to commit?

Dear Rahkyt,

While away I read Aldus Huxley's Brave New World, it through some light on what is happening now. The external propaganda is constant and insidious, it is even in the language we use, and of course it is ripe on conspiracy sites!

The clever thing is we now do it to ourselves, we conform or rebel which only adds to it's power.
I've get tunes going round in my head that just pop up from fifty years ago, and I start singing them, which drives my wife crazy...then she starts singing them!

I'll explain more when I get back, but for now there are eight consciousnesses. Five of the senses, three of mind. The sixth is just perception, the seventh is judgement, the eighth is the storehouse of thoughts. In normal life the action between the 6th 7th and 8th happen very quickly. How concepts are collected are due to the pressure from those around us and our own clinging, and the subliminal!

An example: we see something=6th consciousness, it immediately goes to the 7th consciousness which looks into the 8th consciousness to identify what it sees, so the the 7th consciousness can judge whether it is good or bad. So we go round in circles.

We get into a pattern of behaviour, we program ourselves. Meditation is about de-programming ourselves.

The closer we look, the fascinating it is! There is also something more about the 8th consciousness which is close to the empty essence, but that will need more explanation.

All the best
Tony


ps. The so-called elite are definitely not enlightened...no compassion!

[shijo]

Hi Tony, welcome back, as for original thoughts i had one once but cant remember for the life of me what it was. Ifind Tibetan Buddhism hugely cerebral, very subtle, as it pursues ultimate reality.However most Mahayana Buddhism involves simply faith and following that through via daily practise is meant to bring wisdom. The flow is whats important right? I can grasp the intellectual arguements and study is an important part of most Buddhism,but it pales into insignificance when compared with practise.Thats the only place where the Buddha resides not in buildings, retreats and courses,but in our own hearts.The only difference between the elite so called and us is that we can manifest compassion to all living beings,and they at this time cannot.regards Shijo.

[Lord Sidious]

Aha! Pinealnugget has returned.
Excellent.
Welcome back nugget.

[Tony]

Hi Tony, welcome back, as for original thoughts i had one once but cant remember for the life of me what it was. Ifind Tibetan Buddhism hugely cerebral, very subtle, as it pursues ultimate reality.However most Mahayana Buddhism involves simply faith and following that through via daily practise is meant to bring wisdom. The flow is whats important right? I can grasp the intellectual arguements and study is an important part of most Buddhism,but it pales into insignificance when compared with practise.Thats the only place where the Buddha resides not in buildings, retreats and courses,but in our own hearts.The only difference between the elite so called and us is that we can manifest compassion to all living beings,and they at this time cannot.regards Shijo.

You are so right, simple practice and experience is what it is all about! For some of us the mind is not totally convinced so analysis available, but it is a mine field!

[joedjemal]

I don't let the thoughts in most of the time these days. This all sounds about right to me.

[Tony]

I don't let the thoughts in most of the time these days. This all sounds about right to me.

Then you are ready for stage two, not blocking!

[grapevine]

Hi Pie

Welcome back. Hope you and Tarka had a wonderful holiday.

I knew that about there being no original thought, but I always thought there was a "universal subconscious" that we tuned into, rather than being targeted and having thoughts put in there. Hmmmmm, I'll be giving that idea my special attention over the next few days. I also know that to live totally in the present you should aim to have no thought at all, which I have managed for only a second or two. Did you manage longer than that on the retreat? Please pm me the highs and lows when you have a mo.

:)

[Tony]

Hi Pie

Welcome back. Hope you and Tarka had a wonderful holiday.

I knew that about there being no original thought, but I always thought there was a "universal subconscious" that we tuned into, rather than being targeted and having thoughts put in there. Hmmmmm, I'll be giving that idea my special attention over the next few days

Hello W1ndmill,
This is where the tricky subtleties begin, we are sort of receivers and transmitters, subsconscious and conscious. But the moment we claim it, it turns into a concept, and works against us. The path of perception is intertwined with the path of deception. Will explain more on my return, look up Mara activity.

Tony

[PurpleLama]

This is too funny, Mr. Tony-pie, but much of the subject from the OP I was teaching myself, this very morning, to my beloved teenaged daughter. Would you ageree that these meaningful coincidences are appearing from the place of emptiness? Or should I say "place" of "emptiness", for even the thought of "emptiness" is still a "thought" just the same.

I am so very glad, for you being back, and for me being here to welcome you back.

[joedjemal]

I don't let the thoughts in most of the time these days. This all sounds about right to me.

Then you are ready for stage two, not blocking!

Not blocking?

[NancyV]

Very nicely stated, Tony. An old friend of mine called me yesterday and we had a long conversation about how our thoughts are not really our own but are subtle and not so subtle programming and patterning, often from early childhood. She said that right now the energy is so strong that sometimes she has emotions and thoughts that she knows are not her own, because they are often fear based. We both agreed that we know these thoughts are mental imprints or we are picking up on the powerful negative energies which are being constantly broadcast.

Whenever I have an emotion or thought that is not who I am I recognize it and accept that it's a programmed reaction or response to some pattern that is embedded deep within my psyche. These can be either negative or positive thoughts and emotions. There is no shame or feeling of failure in experiencing any supposedly negative emotions or thoughts. I fully accept that this is a part of the human experience I am participating in right now. I let the thoughts flow in and flow out. No shield is the strongest shield there is.

I agree that we don't have "original thoughts", but even those words, original thoughts, can be confusing. Since we exist in a state of eternity and timelessness, allness and nothingness, there can be nothing that did not exist at one point, hence no originality. To be original or have an origin there would have to be a beginning, which would indicate that there is an end. Having personally entered into the allness and nothingness many times through meditation and existed in eternity and timelessness, I basically agree with the words you have written, although as you say words cannot convey a full meaning. While in that state of eternity there was no beginning and no end.

The physical human mind cannot grasp states of being that can only be experienced. If they are explained in words they are reduced, compressed, most often misinterpreted and made less or different than they really are. But we can still continue to attempt to give hints to others of what awaits them when they look inside for themselves to see who they truly are.

[Tony]

I don't let the thoughts in most of the time these days. This all sounds about right to me.

Then you are ready for stage two, not blocking!

Not blocking?

Dear Joedjemal,
It looks like we can have some interesting chats! I'm in Denver at the moment moving from coffee shop to book shop, and tomorrow I move another city...?
We can investigate more precisely when I return,

Tony

[ktlight]

I don't let the thoughts in most of the time these days. This all sounds about right to me.

Then you are ready for stage two, not blocking!

Not blocking?

Dear Joedjemal,
It looks like we can have some interesting chats! I'm in Denver at the moment moving from coffee shop to book shop, and tomorrow I move another city...?
We can investigate more precisely when I return,

Tony

Gosh, pie'n'eal, I thought you were back in situ.
Must say, what you are bringing is well needed. I am now trusting that there will be progress amongst us, at long last.

[Tony]

Very nicely stated, Tony. An old friend of mine called me yesterday and we had a long conversation about how our thoughts are not really our own but are subtle and not so subtle programming and patterning, often from early childhood. She said that right now the energy is so strong that sometimes she has emotions and thoughts that she knows are not her own, because they are often fear based. We both agreed that we know these thoughts are mental imprints or we are picking up on the powerful negative energies which are being constantly broadcast.

Whenever I have an emotion or thought that is not who I am I recognize it and accept that it's a programmed reaction or response to some pattern that is embedded deep within my psyche. These can be either negative or positive thoughts and emotions. There is no shame or feeling of failure in experiencing any supposedly negative emotions or thoughts. I fully accept that this is a part of the human experience I am participating in right now. I let the thoughts flow in and flow out. No shield is the strongest shield there is.

I agree that we don't have "original thoughts", but even those words, original thoughts, can be confusing. Since we exist in a state of eternity and timelessness, allness and nothingness, there can be nothing that did not exist at one point, hence no originality. To be original or have an origin there would have to be a beginning, which would indicate that there is an end. Having personally entered into the allness and nothingness many times through meditation and existed in eternity and timelessness, I basically agree with the words you have written, although as you say words cannot convey a full meaning. While in that state of eternity there was no beginning and no end.

The physical human mind cannot grasp states of being that can only be experienced. If they are explained in words they are reduced, compressed, most often misinterpreted and made less or different than they really are. But we can still continue to attempt to give hints to others of what awaits them when they look inside for themselves to see who they truly are.

Dear NancyV,
Nicely put.

[christian]

Consciousness is relative truth and Emptiness is absolute truth.
We have to know how to dance with these two truths.

The 'elite' are driven, and cannot understand Emptiness!

They cannot understand how everyone cannot want everything, because consciousness believes everything to be real.
Emptiness just has no place in conceptual mind.
When we are controlled or driven by our fixations, we too lose all sense of our pure natural state - our lucid clear light!

:clap2:


We do not have an original thought in our heads. They have all been placed there.
However, we do have free will, and can join up the dots in our own unique way - or just let the thoughts be.
This is equivalent to analytical meditation and pure meditation. Both are necessary.

We are being transmitted to all the time.

Spot on!

There is the absolute highest form of energy, which is the source, and we, the fragments originating from it having experiences, can tune into parts of this absolute energy. As long as we are in a human body, there are restrictions as to the degree of energy that can be tuned into, because it's so powerful, we are like a 50w lightbulb when there is virtually infinitely high voltage available. Free-will then determines into what section of the energy we tuned into. This then determines thoughts, perceptions, etc., we just tune into them, they don't originate in our heads.

Most people know, how someone, who just fell in love, sees the world with different eyes. He tuned into another portion of the energy available, thus having other thoughts, perceptions and all the rest of it. Now one can ask, what was first, new thoughts or another attunement? It can happen simultaneously, but one cannot really have a genuine thought without the proper attunement, one could formulate every phrase in one's head, but one would not feel and understand what it means, if one is not tuned into it properly.

Next issue, from my understanding pure meditation is just calming down, being emptiness, to be able to handle a higher degree of energy to tune into. Analytical meditation is harder to describe, but I'll try and give you my perspective, it's like figuring out how different attunements relate to each other, with the aim, to tune into the most appropriate one in any given situation, in order to be the best support possible.

Auras illustrate all this really well. It's observable how one tunes into a certain color, with a certain density, with a certain speed, with a certain volume. It's observable how a new color or pattern emerges and suddenly the people communicate new ideas and so on, I see that quite often in conversations. Sometimes I see people tuning into something, that was not present in their aura before, whether they are talking or listening, and then they relate how they are suddenly able to see things from a different view, but sometimes they are then disregarding and going back to their old patterns, because they make the free-will choice that their old pattern is what and who they are and that they are obliged to stick to it. One doesn't have to stick to anything, one can tune into everything, feel how it feels, explore the benefits of everything and so on. From my experience, it seems that the white light is a great basis to operate from, when one wishes to tune into other color with a high speed and flexibility, but it's relatively difficult to stay tuned to it, not least because it's rather uncommon on earth and one is kind of the odd one out.

And every attunement bears risks, being tuned into white might lead to a disconnectedness to earthly endeavours.
Talking about other colors as a basis: A lot of simple natural people like tuning into green, but they gotta be aware of not becoming morose or envious, analytical people often like yellow, but they gotta be aware of not becoming pedantic or dogmatic, healers often like blue, they gotta be aware of not becoming too melancholic or grave, just to give some examples.
It's good to practice meditation there, to stay balanced and not fall into those traps.

All existence seems like a most wondrous alchemical cocktail to me, just fascinating. :hippie:

Welcome back pie'n'eal, great thread once again :hug:

One final note: People are in tune with a lot more energy than they would imagine. They often carry it on the edge of their aura, seldom using it. I often try to talk people subtly into something like "trust your intuition" and then it's observable, how energy from the edges pours into the middle and they are all excited about "what a revelation I just had!". Synchronistically, I read in the book "Tensegrity" from Carlos Castaneda, how the shaman Don Juan explained exactly the same thing to him, how people have a lot of energy on the edges and never use it, it gets out there through sorrow and other detrimental thoughts and emotions and tensegrity looks like a strange form of gymnastics, but is actually designed to pull the energy back into the vital centers of the body.

[Tony]

Dear Chiquetet
We are in tune...!
Kind regards
Tony

[onawah]

Welcome back Pie'n'eal!
I'd say it's been a bit more morose and doom and gloomy here on PA since you've been gone, but your return coinciding closely with Bill Ryan's I will take as good signs!
Your description of the elite's inner world makes a lot of sense. They are very attached to the material, no doubt about it!

I like these thoughts especially from your first post:
"However, the endarkened messages get through because they are so seductive, telling you that you are already one with the universe, so you don't have to do anything. It's a seductive message. They want us to stay in ignorance."
and
"The evil that is creating fear actually helps to intensify the path and light it up. The more seriously we take this, the more we can have compassion for everyone around us: it becomes like a symbolic teacher, and in some strange way, it also becomes less “serious” because we clearly see what is going on."

I've been experiencing some internalized personal gloom and doom, and have been seduced into giving up doing the kind of daily thing that normally helps "keep me on track" (meditating and going for walks in Nature, etc.) because it seemed futile and more exhausting than energizing.
I just surrendered to my apathetic state, even though there is a continual tape that plays when I do this which says, "If you surrender, you will just get sucked in deeper and deeper into this black hole, and you may not ever be able to climb out again."
But I reached a point when I could clearly see that the message from the tape was wrong. I was actually feeling pretty OK even though I wasn't doing what I "should" have been doing. The doom and gloom was still there, but I could detach from it without doing anything in particular.
I am slowly beginning to resume the daily practices which are normally very helpful, but am able to come now from a place of greater ease and flow, not because I "should", but because I want to.
Not because I persevered, but because I just surrendered to "not doing" for awhile.

[Tony]

Welcome back Pie'n'eal!
I'd say it's been a bit more morose and doom and gloomy here on PA since you've been gone, but your return coinciding closely with Bill Ryan's I will take as good signs!
Your description of the elite's inner world makes a lot of sense. They are very attached to the material, no doubt about it!I

I like these thoughts especially from your first post:
"However, the endarkened messages get through because they are so seductive, telling you that you are already one with the universe, so you don't have to do anything. It's a seductive message. They want us to stay in ignorance."
and
"The evil that is creating fear actually helps to intensify the path and light it up. The more seriously we take this, the more we can have compassion for everyone around us: it becomes like a symbolic teacher, and in some strange way, it also becomes less “serious” because we clearly see what is going on."

I've been experiencing some internalized personal gloom and doom, and have been seduced into giving up doing the kind of daily thing that normally helpa "keep me on track" (meditating and going for walks in Nature, etc.) because it seemed futile and more exhausting than energizing.
I just surrendered to my apathetic state, even though there is a continual tape that plays when I do this which says, "If you surrender, you will just get sucked in deeper and deeper into this black hole, and you may not ever be able to climb out again."
But I reached a point when I could clearly see that the message from the tape was wrong. I was actually feeling pretty OK even though I wasn't doing what I "should" have been doing. The doom and gloom was still there, but I could detach from it without doing anything in particular.
I am slowly beginning to resume the daily practices which are normally very helpful, but am able to come now from a place of greater ease and flow, not because I "should", but because I want to.
Not because I persevered, but because I just surrendered to "not doing" for awhile.

Dear Onawah,
You sound like you are your our teacher! The world around us can certainly sharpen our awareness/consciousness to practises, as we become more aware we refine and refine, and real confidence grows....unshakeable confidence!

Will talk more soon,
Tony

[sshenry]

Hey Pie'n'eal, good to see you back again, and thank you for your words!

Day after day after year and I watch as those who cannot comprenehd try desperately to fill up the emptiness.

They fill it because they fear it.

They fear the immensity of it; the possibilities that it encompases; the power that it gives to each and every one who taps it and the fact that it is no respector of persons.

[Tenzin]

Dear Brother in the Dharma,

Welcome back!!! Sending thoughts for your safe passage home!

It is profound truth, and indeed words and mere intellectual understanding is not sufficiently penetrative for us to be able to be in control of the 'matrix'. As long as we are thinking, we cannot arrive at the ultimate truth. We are all subject to the workings of consciousness and trapped by it.

While there are those who do not wish us to even consider that as a truth, it can't be hidden absolutely because EVERYTHING in this world is teaching us that truth if we are able to achieve deeper states of mental calm. For everything is energy and interconnected. At death, our 'consciousness' separates, and some fragments find themselves in other bodies, while some congregates into the 'self' that we function by today. As much as things can have influence on us, we can have as much power over everything if we know how it all operates at the very core.

It is unfortunate that every religion has somewhat been controlled by the Elites that the truth is no longer as obvious as it should be. They blind us to our inherent capabilities. They fear our knowledge of that. They have made use of our emotions and intellect against us and many have fallen to their plot. Even when all of the wars and killings are over, there will still be many trapped by the pleasures conceived by the consciousness. They create chaos, and later bring peace, but we are all still living and dying continuously manifestation after manifestation, in the astral planes, or physical ones. Attachment is the true evil.

I shall be on my way soon to somewhere secluded for my training under a master, to fully realize what you have shared, to be de-programmed once and for all.

[Mark]

Greetings, Tony, thank you for your response:


While away I read Aldus Huxley's Brave New World, it through some light on what is happening now. The external propaganda is constant and insidious, it is even in the language we use, and of course it is ripe on conspiracy sites!

The clever thing is we now do it to ourselves, we conform or rebel which only adds to it's power.
I've get tunes going round in my head that just pop up from fifty years ago, and I start singing them, which drives my wife crazy...then she starts singing them!

Yesterday I was speaking to my girlfriend about something similar. I believe that something in each moment calls forth such memories, if you want to call them that. That there is some stimulus, conscious or sub-conscious, that brings them forth at a particular time. Something coming from the environment or from the stream of our thoughts that stimulates those long-slumbering neurons, awakening the memory to arise and reach consciousness. And most times, we have very little idea about what it was exactly that brought it up. Related to this is another idea that I have about perception. The reality that at a very basic level, our eyes are like cameras; they take everything in but we only visually process a relatively small band of the total amount of information. I think that sometimes we also catch things, movements, shapes, distortions, on the edge of our awareness that are actually present and that we actually see and register, but we don't process them, we don't focus our thoughts upon them and so they pass unremarked upon. And yet, they happened; we put it off to imagination or a trick of the light or just a smudge of color or light or shadow or whatever. The point being, we don't consciously make note of these incidents often or even notice them, generally, and if we do, we dismiss them offhand. I think this type of perception is so pervasive that there is an entire range of reality that we have trained ourselves over a lifetime to dismiss automatically.

It's like when you hypnotize those who have been abducted, they speak of it in a monotone with no surprise generally, because they are used to it. I think if people were hypnotized and questions were asked to bring out these types of incidents, the same type of behavior would occur.


I'll explain more when I get back, but for now there are eight consciousnesses. Five of the senses, three of mind. The sixth is just perception, the seventh is judgement, the eighth is the storehouse of thoughts. In normal life the action between the 6th 7th and 8th happen very quickly. How concepts are collected are due to the pressure from those around us and our own clinging, and the subliminal!

An example: we see something=6th consciousness, it immediately goes to the 7th consciousness which looks into the 8th consciousness to identify what it sees, so the the 7th consciousness can judge whether it is good or bad. So we go round in circles.

I like this. I've never heard of so many consciousnesses but I am eager to hear you expound upon it more. Thank you! :rockon:


ps. The so-called elite are definitely not enlightened...no compassion!

There is a point at which total compassion appears as a lack of compassion to the cursory or casual observer, or those who cannot tell the difference, I think. For instance, for one who has experienced bodhi, transcended samsara in order to see the unity that lies beyond, the specific romantic or familial love is replaced by a more general universal love. To such folk, life is about the lessons, the dharma and the karma and the individual plight does not draw the kind of visceral reaction that you might experience with the typical person on the street witnessing or hearing about such people. I was interested to find the so-called Elite Insider (http://www.scribd.com/doc/403303/The-Revelations-of-an-Elite-Family-Insider-2005) speaking of such individuals existing, of schisms within the ranks of the Elite, etc.

I rather think, though, that generally, you are correct and that those who think that they are Enlightened are really Psychopaths or Organic Portals who mistake their lack of compassion, morals and empathy for that higher state of Being. :evil:

Thanks for your time and for sharing, Tony! :yu::yu:

[mosquito]

Nice to see you back brother Pie !
Almost impossible to put into words, so congratulations for having expressed it so well !
One of the reasons I'm drawn to Daoism is its' simplicity, its' relaince on being and imagery rather than words which, no matter how well meant, only end up causing confusion.

[161803398]

Hi Pie: Its interesting you should mention this because it has occurred to me lately that many people do not have any thoughts that are their own. This is not related to intelligence or lack of it. This was quite a startling revelation for me because I once assumed that people think. But observation tells me otherwise. However, I am one of those who is not easily brainwashed; but, I do seem to get information at least some information from the air, so to speak, that is, I pick up trends. Other information, what is called "psychic", comes in like a radio wave. On another level however I think I am an original, that is, my thoughts are not in agreement with others, my environment or my world, in short, I am what they call "different" all the time. So what about people like me...who is transmitting to us?....haha...damn...I'll bet I have an Irish spirit guide.

Although I did explain to my friend's kid the other day that his mother had..and I had to use something he could relate to...that his mother had "hacked" his head when he was very young.

[animalspirits]

Hummmm...this sounds suspiciously the same as what I have been teaching on my website beyondvibration.org for a good while.

I would hate to think that someone has already ripped off my site. If you haven't checked it out and wish to, be my guest.

I actually teach you to do this rather than throwing words and ideas at you without giving you the tools to do this.

Sorry Tony, but I hope you didn't pay money to do this as my site is free.

[onawah]

I think realizing that being our own teacher is a worthy goal is part of the process, especially in this emerging new Aquarian paradigm. Not that we can't learn from others, of course!, but we have to learn to listen to our own inner guidance as to what is going to work for us as individuals. There are always choices to be made and a diversity of paths to be chosen from, and so we must develop the wisdom to choose for ourselves. Life itself is the best teacher, if we but have the wit to interpret what messages it is gifting us with.


Welcome back Pie'n'eal!
I'd say it's been a bit more morose and doom and gloomy here on PA since you've been gone, but your return coinciding closely with Bill Ryan's I will take as good signs!
Your description of the elite's inner world makes a lot of sense. They are very attached to the material, no doubt about it!I

I like these thoughts especially from your first post:
"However, the endarkened messages get through because they are so seductive, telling you that you are already one with the universe, so you don't have to do anything. It's a seductive message. They want us to stay in ignorance."
and
"The evil that is creating fear actually helps to intensify the path and light it up. The more seriously we take this, the more we can have compassion for everyone around us: it becomes like a symbolic teacher, and in some strange way, it also becomes less “serious” because we clearly see what is going on."

I've been experiencing some internalized personal gloom and doom, and have been seduced into giving up doing the kind of daily thing that normally helpa "keep me on track" (meditating and going for walks in Nature, etc.) because it seemed futile and more exhausting than energizing.
I just surrendered to my apathetic state, even though there is a continual tape that plays when I do this which says, "If you surrender, you will just get sucked in deeper and deeper into this black hole, and you may not ever be able to climb out again."
But I reached a point when I could clearly see that the message from the tape was wrong. I was actually feeling pretty OK even though I wasn't doing what I "should" have been doing. The doom and gloom was still there, but I could detach from it without doing anything in particular.
I am slowly beginning to resume the daily practices which are normally very helpful, but am able to come now from a place of greater ease and flow, not because I "should", but because I want to.
Not because I persevered, but because I just surrendered to "not doing" for awhile.

Dear Onawah,
You sound like you are your our teacher! The world around us can certainly sharpen our awareness/consciousness to practises, as we become more aware we refine and refine, and real confidence grows....unshakeable confidence!

Will talk more soon,
Tony

[greybeard]

Something that Buddhist teaching implies is that emptiness is nothing and I have read elsewhere that that is misleading, it come from the philosophy of not this not this so that even love has to be released as an attachment.

If one believes this the one ends up in the void which is impressive but devoid of love-- then one has to reincarnate yet again to go beyond that concept.
In the state of enlightenment Love is and One is Love and on leaving this world one does not reincarnate, job done.
With the exception that one can choose to reincarnate to help he population advance spiritually--- only thing is you don't remember you volunteered.

Your thoughts on this appreciated Tony.
Chris
Namaste

[onawah]

As I understand it, the Emptiness you speak of is empty of things, not of Beingness, which is Love and Consciousness.
Problems in understanding arise because the moment our minds think of something, no matter how subtle a concept, it is defined by the mind as a "thing", so thought gets in the way of direct perception and experiencing.
To get past that tendency, the "not this" teaching was developed.
Actual experiencing of the Emptiness cannot be transmitted by a teacher to the student with words alone though they can be helpful, since one can only understand Emptiness by experiencing it.
The student must first empty the mind of incessant thinking and conceptualizing, then there may be a space where Emptiness may be experienced.
The Void, or Not-Being, is a nightmarish place, and you can end up there, as I did for a time, through unskillful meditation.
I would not wish that experience on anyone, though it did give me a solid appreciation for" skillful means"!

[Tony]

I am at an airport and reading this post - I am actually in the middle of writing a beginners' meditation article now. In the meantime, I just thought I'd send this, in advance of the full article...call it enthusiasm!

Meditation.

This post is meant to illustrate the methods of meditation from beginners to advanced: where you are will depend on the amount of practice you put in (and not what you think you know!). It is all about practice – not theory!

I generally try to be non sectarian, but this post is from the Buddhist perspective -Tibetan Buddhism. Most methods of meditation start off generally the same, but as we progress, there are subtle differences. This is meant to give you a firm foundation. The meditation that suits you will depend on your temperament. There is also the path of non-meditation for the “town yogi”.

First, a short preamble, as the water has been slightly mudded. This is really an alternative media forum, so meditation is not its main purpose, but it is still very important! The understanding of consciousness and beyond is what it is all about. I am not a teacher, just a student who wishes to share information which is not easy to access. Remember - this is just information. Your practice will turn it into knowledge, and then we can discuss wisdom!

This need not be a long journey, but it has to be precise.
When you get to wisdom, then you can start your journey, with very little support.
I would ask those who have meditated already to be mindful of beginners, and not to confuse them with...here I have to apologise...their own version! We can always happily debate on another thread.

Although I have been meditating for many years, I am still a beginner – and there is much merit in going back to the beginning. It keeps one's feet on the ground...if you see pictures of Buddha, he always has one hand touching the earth. I have just attended two retreats – the first was for beginners and the second for advanced students...and several of us learnt much from the beginners' course. Why? Because along one's spiritual journey, one sometimes misses out on certain steps, due to time and place. Also, a phrase may be explained in a slightly different way - and suddenly it makes sense..ah ha!

The point of meditation is to become familiar with one's absolute true nature.
There are lots of sidetracks and 'in' words, such as kundalini, chakras, vajrayana, channels, winds, essence...they are all to get you to realise your true nature.
Once that is seen, or pointed out, the toys are not needed.
“Once it is seen” refers to the long path, and “pointed out” is the short path.
The first refers to Vipassana and the latter to Dzogchen/ Mahamudra.
However, they both start out with Shamata...sorry about the funny words - they will be explained!

From what is being said on the forum, it appears that some of you know a bit about meditation, while some do not. Do not accept or reject what is being said. Put away pride and leave a legacy for those who follow.

As stated before, there are different methods and systems of meditation which we can discuss on another post. In Buddhism, there are already quite enough differences to cause confusion!

Chapter 1

Why to meditate?
We are confused about our true existence.
We create and maintain this confusion about ourselves, and, as we learn from the alternative media, there are powers who are utilising our self-cherishing. The Sanskrit word for this confusion is 'Samsara'. What is being done to us we could call 'super confusion' or 'Super Samara'. Here I will have to deviate from orthodox Buddhism, as Buddhists do not yet, in general, recognise 'Super Samara'. So our minds are full of concepts and fixations about who and what we are.

Most of our lives, we believe we are our thoughts. Are they our thoughts?
If our thoughts are not us, then who are we?
We have also been taught to believe things are real, and to be sought after.
Also, our self identity must be maintained , which means conforming.
So we are in the area of mind control, by others, and by ourselves.

Here we need to address nihilism and eternalism, the two extremes.
Nihilism means nothingness (which could lead to depression, with the idea of everything being pointless.
Eternalism means we are a fixed entity/identity (with no possibility of change).
Buddhism is in the middle - I'm not saying it's better, just more spacious!

There is much distraction in this world and in the mind. It keeps us busy!
Sometimes we find ourselves in a vacant state, which can be mistaken for meditation.
At every stage of our path of changing perception, there is ego's deception...it's all about me!Unfortunately we also have to deal with an outside deception - let's call them demons (in sanskrit they are called Mara, and they feed off our negative energy, and hate our positive energy).
So we have a very useful antidote...pure, lucid emptiness! And we have more fun!!!

Chapter 2

Bum on cushion.
As long as you are relaxed and your back is straight, you can sit on a chair or cushion. Laying down is possible but one tends to go to sleep. Sitting straight helps with natural breathing and keeps your mind alert.
Hands on lap or thighs, eyes slightly open, or open.
If there are many thoughts, just lower the gaze.
If you are feeling sleepy, raise the gaze.
Nothing forced.

The senses are wide open.
Here we may have to make a distinction between paths. Shamata meditation uses the breath as a focus. Merely noticing the inhalation and exhalation, thoughts will come - just return to watching the breath. The thoughts may seem to get worse. They are not - you are just noticing more! The point here is that it is your time to relax, rest and be at peace. The body is still, and gradually the mind becomes still...but aware! You can go back to thinking later. This is called Shamata with support.

Now the distinction has to be made, and this may cause confusion.
You have a choice of the path of the sutras or of the tantras.
The sutras start with Shamata then go on to Vipassana (insight meditation).
It is like sharpening a knife on a wet stone - gradually you wear the stone and the knife away until nothing is left.
Others may describe it differently, but that is as far as I can go on that subject.What I will be describing is more towards the tantric path.

Chapter3

Whether the tantric path is suitable for you will depend on your temperament, on how you relate to life.
It utilises intense intelligence, intense compassion and intense emotions.
It is not at all scary! I am sure you have heard lots of rumours and fuddled ideas about it, but it deals directly with the nature of mind and compassion.

Actually, I spent twenty years solely practising in order to follow the vajrayana path, only to find that it is a back-up plan, for directly seeing the nature of mind. I say 'back-up' a little too lightly, as compassion and devotion - or deep appreciation for and understanding of the teaching - is of utmost importance. I'll leave it there for the moment, and will come back to that, but please do not make assumptions, unless you are a practitioner. One has to know precisely what one is talking about, or one is talking from ignorance...

Even in tantra, there are two ways to view meditation.
One is to find the view (empty essence) through the meditation - that is starting at the beginning of the book and going to the end.
The other is for the view (empty essence) to be pointed out, and then the meditation is merely the continuity of the view.
Wouldn't it be nice if life were simple! It is, when you become more familiar with the process.
The essence is so simple that it goes unnoticed, so we need a few more words.

So, back to Shamata meditation.
Once we are more or less comfortable with watching the breath, we come to Shamata without support. This is simply noticing that at the end and beginning of each breath, there is a gap - or we notice a gap between thoughts.
In that gap we rest naturally.
There is a still 'nowness' present, and the senses are wide open.
With the senses wide open and the sense of nowness, one can take the meditation into daily life. One experiences moments of spaciousness.

Shamata with and without support is still at a conceptual level, but it's a start. It is creating a firm foundation. It is good to notice the difference between the two, as sometimes we have to return to Shamata with support when thoughts are rampant!

Chapter 4

Moving out of concepts.
Dwelling in the now, or in stillness, is conceptual.
It is dealing with 'me' dwelling in 'nowness'.
This is still duality, but there is an awareness or consciousness, so that is good.
There is a perceiver, and that which is perceived.
At this moment, panic may be setting in...“Er, so where am I?”
You are here, in full glory, but concepts cannot see that.
You are beyond consciousness.

Here we must talk about consciousness.
All sentient beings are aware or conscious. This is natural.
Even a slug is aware, though it may have a short memory! But it is not aware or conscious of its true nature.
Humans are unique in this, though all sentient beings have a potential awakened nature (Buddha nature). Humans can realise their full potential. This precious human life is a rare as a blind turtle coming to the surface of a ocean once every hundred years and putting its head through a ring!

There are two truths - one is relative truth and the other, absolute truth.
The trick is to work with then in union, so as not to become extreme as mentioned before (nihilism and eternalism).
Consciousness is relative truth, and Emptiness is absolute truth.
Emptiness means pure and untainted, so pure perception!

This is where we come to another tricky issue.
People are going around thinking that they have pure perception now.
If you truly had pure perception, you would be a Buddha, and would have transversed the ten Bhumis of the Bodhisattvas.
We get glimpses of it, but the enlightened state is prolonged day and night.
Sorry to say this, but anything to do with 'me' and 'I' is still standing at the bottom of the ladder in a puddle of concepts! Still, it not all bad news - you can only go up!!! And you are not alone.

Chapter 5

Consciousness.
There are eight consciousnesses.
Five are the consciousness of the senses.
There are three of mind: the sixth is perception, the seventh is judgement, the eighth is the storehouse of thoughts.
In normal life, the interaction between the 6th 7th and 8th happens very quickly. How concepts are collected is due to the pressure from those around us and our own clinging, and the subliminal!

An example: we see something = 6th consciousness. It immediately goes to the 7th consciousness, which looks into the 8th consciousness to identify what it sees, so that the 7th consciousness can then judge whether it is good or bad. And so we go round in circles, maintaining the concepts held in the storehouse of the 8th (and therefore, karma).

We get into a pattern of behaviour. We program ourselves.
Meditation is about de-programming ourselves.
The closer we look, the more fascinating it is!
There is also something more about the 8th consciousness which is close to the empty essence, but that will need more explanation...

To be continued...and expanded upon...

Kind regards
Tony

[crosby]

hi Pie, i am so glad that you are back...... i hope your sojourn was peaceful. i just read your last post and when i read that you still considered your self a beginner, i thought: i must be at the pre- pre-beginner stage..... lol... i am learning though and i trust that this is going to help me considerably in future. i look forward to all information that you share as it has helped me tremendously in the past. a great big welcome back hug to you and tarka the duck. and i thank you in advance for anything that you can share with us.
warmest regards, corson

[onawah]

Apologies, Pie'n'eal, but I want to make sure I understand what you are saying, since there are specific guidelines on Project Avalon which I want to follow. I have enjoyed reading your posts and the discussion so far, but I want to be clear what would be considered "on topic" from here on. Thanks.

You wrote:
"This post is meant to illustrate the methods of meditation from beginners to advanced: where you are will depend on the amount of practice you put in (and not what you think you know!). It is all about practice – not theory!"

I think what you mean by "this post" is actually "this thread" which is entitled "Beyond Consciousness", which you, Pie'n'eal, started, and which therefore entitles you to decide what the subject matter will be, and what is on or off topic. (A post is just one entry from anyone who is participating in the thread.)

You wrote:
"I generally try to be non sectarian, but this post is from the Buddhist perspective -Tibetan Buddhism. Most methods of meditation start off generally the same, but as we progress, there are subtle differences. This is meant to give you a firm foundation. The meditation that suits you will depend on your temperament. There is also the path of non-meditation for the “town yogi”.

So from that I infer that this thread is meant to be about the teachings re meditation from the Tibetan Buddhist perspective. Is this to be just one particular school of Tibetan Buddhism? Will this also be for non-meditating "town yogis", or will that be a different thread?

You wrote:
"First, a short preamble, as the water has been slightly mudded. This is really an alternative media forum, so meditation is not its main purpose, but it is still very important! The understanding of consciousness and beyond is what it is all about. I am not a teacher, just a student who wishes to share information which is not easy to access. Remember - this is just information. Your practice will turn it into knowledge, and then we can discuss wisdom!"

So will wisdom be discussed on this thread, or just the mechanics of practicing meditation?

]"This need not be a long journey, but it has to be precise.
When you get to wisdom, then you can start your journey, with very little support.
I would ask those who have meditated already to be mindful of beginners, and not to confuse them with...here I have to apologise...their own version! We can always happily debate on another thread."

So are you proposing that discussion be confined to other threads re different methods of meditation, and experiences resulting from different methods of meditation?


"Although I have been meditating for many years, I am still a beginner – and there is much merit in going back to the beginning. It keeps one's feet on the ground...if you see pictures of Buddha, he always has one hand touching the earth. I have just attended two retreats – the first was for beginners and the second for advanced students...and several of us learnt much from the beginners' course. Why? Because along one's spiritual journey, one sometimes misses out on certain steps, due to time and place. Also, a phrase may be explained in a slightly different way - and suddenly it makes sense..ah ha!"

Not to be a nit picker, but I have seen lots of pictures of the Buddha with his hands in his lap, also with his hands cushioning his head, in a reclining position. And many manifestations of Buddha, Boddhisattvas, etc with their hands in different mudras.

"The point of meditation is to become familiar with one's absolute true nature.
There are lots of sidetracks and 'in' words, such as kundalini, chakras, vajrayana, channels, winds, essence...they are all to get you to realise your true nature.
Once that is seen, or pointed out, the toys are not needed.
“Once it is seen” refers to the long path, and “pointed out” is the short path.
The first refers to Vipassana and the latter to Dzogchen/ Mahamudra.
However, they both start out with Shamata...sorry about the funny words - they will be explained!

From what is being said on the forum, it appears that some of you know a bit about meditation, while some do not. Do not accept or reject what is being said. Put away pride and leave a legacy for those who follow.

As stated before, there are different methods and systems of meditation which we can discuss on another post. In Buddhism, there are already quite enough differences to cause confusion!"

So it sounds like you are saying here that this thread is only to be about the techniques of these particular Tibetan Buddhist meditation teachings that do not touch on such subjects as " kundalini, chakras, vajrayana, channels, winds, essence" correct? And that other members who have practiced meditation before are asked to refrain from posting their remarks to this thread, as you think it may be too confusing for beginners?

Finally, Pie'n'eal do you intend to start other threads on any of these other subjects mentioned, or do you want to leave that to other members?
Thanks for your attention and any clarification.

Perhaps we should have a sub-forum started devoted solely to spiritual practice.

[onawah]

BTW, since Pie'n'eal has been gone for awhile, I would like to bring his attention (and to anyone else who missed it) to a lovely documentary which The One posted entitled Amongst White Clouds here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?29564-Amongst-White-Clouds&p=299829#post299829

[Tony]

I am still in transit, so there is a time delay in responding. What I wrote was supposed to help anyone that would like to know some fundementals about consciousness and meditation from the Tibetan buddhist perspective. Of course this is not to everyone's taste or temperament.
The most important thing I forgot to mention was about the emotions! The emotions cloud consciousness and that is why we meditate. Because of the ideas we hold on to about ourselves and the world we live in, we can get pretty upset when this cannot be maintained. So the negative emotions arise and control the mind, it is our emotions that control the mind, therefore consciousness and clouds pure essence! Meditation help see through the emotions to help realise our true nature, we can work backwards.

Tony

[Fred Steeves]

The point of meditation is to become familiar with one's absolute true nature.
There are lots of sidetracks and 'in' words, such as kundalini, chakras, vajrayana, channels, winds, essence...they are all to get you to realise your true nature.
Once that is seen, or pointed out, the toys are not needed.
“Once it is seen” refers to the long path, and “pointed out” is the short path.
The first refers to Vipassana and the latter to Dzogchen/ Mahamudra.
However, they both start out with Shamata...sorry about the funny words - they will be explained!



Hi Tony, hope your travels are going well my friend. I don't mind all the 'funny words', I just never bothered to learn them. Dzogchen sticks out from reading "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" a couple of times, but I'd be lying if I said I remember what it means exactly. :nod: I tend to just take the essence out of the teachings, and leave the rest behind. I'm a simple man at heart, and memorizing too much termonology just confuses me...

So then, as long as we are being 'unconventional' as you put it, allow me an unconventional thought. (I'll bet THAT'S a shocker huh?) LOL. Anyway, it occurs to me that if all the things you list there are sidetracks and/or toys, then applied meditation, as a structured practice, must be too. Any 'means' to the 'end' must be illusion/sidetracks/toys, in this case the 'means' being structured meditation, and the 'end' being attaining our absolute true nature, as our absolute true nature is the only true reality, correct? So as much as I enjoy meditating meself, I fail to see how these other things are sidetracks and toys, while meditation is somehow different.

I would like to discuss more about "Beyond Consciousness", as that idea sounds fascinating to explore together, but it seems the thread is going less in that direction, and more in the direction of a Tibetan meditation clinic. Meditation is for sure a powerful tool, but there's also more than one way to make a dog bark.

Hope this makes sense, words are such clumsy little rascals...

Cheers,
Fred

[greybeard]

The point of meditation is to become familiar with one's absolute true nature.
There are lots of sidetracks and 'in' words, such as kundalini, chakras, vajrayana, channels, winds, essence...they are all to get you to realise your true nature.
Once that is seen, or pointed out, the toys are not needed.
“Once it is seen” refers to the long path, and “pointed out” is the short path.
The first refers to Vipassana and the latter to Dzogchen/ Mahamudra.
However, they both start out with Shamata...sorry about the funny words - they will be explained!



Hi Tony, hope your travels are going well my friend. I don't mind all the 'funny words', I just never bothered to learn them. Dzogchen sticks out from reading "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" a couple of times, but I'd be lying if I said I remember what it means exactly. :nod: I tend to just take the essence out of the teachings, and leave the rest behind. I'm a simple man at heart, and memorizing too much termonology just confuses me...

So then, as long as we are being 'unconventional' as you put it, allow me an unconventional thought. (I'll bet THAT'S a shocker huh?) LOL. Anyway, it occurs to me that if all the things you list there are sidetracks and/or toys, then applied meditation, as a structured practice, must be too. Any 'means' to the 'end' must be illusion/sidetracks/toys, in this case the 'means' being structured meditation, and the 'end' being attaining our absolute true nature, as our absolute true nature is the only true reality, correct? So as much as I enjoy meditating meself, I fail to see how these other things are sidetracks and toys, while meditation is somehow different.

I would like to discuss more about "Beyond Consciousness", as that idea sounds fascinating to explore together, but it seems the thread is going less in that direction, and more in the direction of a Tibetan meditation clinic. Meditation is for sure a powerful tool, but there's also more than one way to make a dog bark.

Hope this makes sense, words are such clumsy little rascals...

Cheers,
Fred

Yes Fred I agree.
Obstacles are to be removed from what I understand.
The biggest obstacle is the thought that I (me) am the doer.
All "I am" thoughts to be released.
I am a----
I am meditating.
All Identification with to be released.
Al labeling

The list is endless
The action ocurs--- I am witnessing it--- yet I am also it. There is no subject and object.
The teacher and the taught are the same.
And on that goes.
There is no personal chris.
There is no person
Everything is moving spontaneously towards its full potential--- frame by frame in complete perfection.
Nothing id causing anything to happen--- it just is.

Not saying Im right but that is my current understanding.

Namaste

[shijo]

Hummmm...this sounds suspiciously the same as what I have been teaching on my website beyondvibration.org for a good while.

I would hate to think that someone has already ripped off my site. If you haven't checked it out and wish to, be my guest.

I actually teach you to do this rather than throwing words and ideas at you without giving you the tools to do this.

Sorry Tony, but I hope you didn't pay money to do this as my site is free.

Hi Animalspirits,after an admittedly quick glance at your site i cannot see what you are talking about re this thread, perhaps you can elucidate?

[ThePythonicCow]

Hummmm...this sounds suspiciously the same as ...
animalspirits ... as best as I can tell, which is mostly from the responses of other members, as my talents in such matters are not well developed, both pie'n'eal and yourself bring valued awareness to those other members here who choose to listen and converse.

I am hoping you do not continue in the vein you seemed to be introducing in your post above on this thread. It seemed oddly out of place ... out of place for this thread, for the other postings of pie'n'eal, and for your other postings.

[grapevine]

Hi Pie

Welcome back. Hope you and Tarka had a wonderful holiday.

I knew that about there being no original thought, but I always thought there was a "universal subconscious" that we tuned into, rather than being targeted and having thoughts put in there. Hmmmmm, I'll be giving that idea my special attention over the next few days

Hello W1ndmill,
This is where the tricky subtleties begin, we are sort of receivers and transmitters, subsconscious and conscious. But the moment we claim it, it turns into a concept, and works against us. The path of perception is intertwined with the path of deception. Will explain more on my return, look up Mara activity.

Tony

Do you mean Letters from Mara? Reading now ......... this is very interesting Tony except that I feel I'm starting in the middle and need to go back to the very beginning, the basics. Unfortunately there appears to be no quick fix ... :)

[christian]

The biggest obstacle is the thought that I (me) am the doer.
All "I am" thoughts to be released.
I am a----
I am meditating.
All Identification with to be released.
Al labeling


That's funny, I just read this book about the violet flame. It's virtually all about reciting "I AM the violet flame" in many different variations and affirmations. Guy and Edna Ballard, who brought this violet flame to public awareness in the 30s even founded the I AM movement (http://www.saintgermainfoundation.org/), also called the Saint Germain Foundation.

I can tell, it works as it is supposed to, I stated before I like to experiment with different energies/aura colors/states of perception. I do this to examine them in introspect and to apply them in my daily life in whatever situation. I appreciate the violet flame energy very much, because when it comes to positively relating to people, being respectful, sympathetic, encouraging, finding words and actions that can be understood on the outside and staying balanced, humble and tranquil on the inside, I find this to be an amazing tool, easy and effective.

Having an awareness of subtle energies surely helps to utilize them properly and helps to discern traps, that suck or taint one's energy, knowing how to manipulate these energies productively is such a gift.

Anyways, banning words seems like a strange approach to me. The meaning is beyond words always, so what is it, that should be released? Well of course you said it. Identification with this ephemeral ego 'I', that thinks it's seperate from everything else. The thought that "I (me) am the doer", when this seemingly seperate 'I' is only the vehicle through which is done.

But it's perfectly fine to say "I am", I figure, especially when one has the understanding, that "I" means the universal mind. Then what comes after "I am" is simply the facet of the universal mind that is being focused on.



The action ocurs--- I am witnessing it--- yet I am also it. There is no subject and object.
The teacher and the taught are the same.
And on that goes.
There is no personal chris.
There is no person
Everything is moving spontaneously towards its full potential--- frame by frame in complete perfection.
Nothing is causing anything to happen--- it just is.

That's how I understand it, too. Just that I can see cause and effect in action everywhere, what do you mean with "nothing is causing anything to happen"? The way I understand it, the Creator lets his creation play out, lets it just be, but he created it in the first place, thus causing it. Within creation, that acts upon itself, cause and effect is the way to go, from how I see it, I'd love to hear your insight on that.

By the way, this leads me to my favourite pondering, what is the cause, that anything even exists at all? There could be just eternal infinite nothingness everywhere, but where would that be? Where did the first something come from and why and how?

[Tony]

The point of meditation is to become familiar with one's absolute true nature.
There are lots of sidetracks and 'in' words, such as kundalini, chakras, vajrayana, channels, winds, essence...they are all to get you to realise your true nature.
Once that is seen, or pointed out, the toys are not needed.
“Once it is seen” refers to the long path, and “pointed out” is the short path.
The first refers to Vipassana and the latter to Dzogchen/ Mahamudra.
However, they both start out with Shamata...sorry about the funny words - they will be explained!



Hi Tony, hope your travels are going well my friend. I don't mind all the 'funny words', I just never bothered to learn them. Dzogchen sticks out from reading "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" a couple of times, but I'd be lying if I said I remember what it means exactly. :nod: I tend to just take the essence out of the teachings, and leave the rest behind. I'm a simple man at heart, and memorizing too much termonology just confuses me...

So then, as long as we are being 'unconventional' as you put it, allow me an unconventional thought. (I'll bet THAT'S a shocker huh?) LOL. Anyway, it occurs to me that if all the things you list there are sidetracks and/or toys, then applied meditation, as a structured practice, must be too. Any 'means' to the 'end' must be illusion/sidetracks/toys, in this case the 'means' being structured meditation, and the 'end' being attaining our absolute true nature, as our absolute true nature is the only true reality, correct? So as much as I enjoy meditating meself, I fail to see how these other things are sidetracks and toys, while meditation is somehow different.

I would like to discuss more about "Beyond Consciousness", as that idea sounds fascinating to explore together, but it seems the thread is going less in that direction, and more in the direction of a Tibetan meditation clinic. Meditation is for sure a powerful tool, but there's also more than one way to make a dog bark.

Hope this makes sense, words are such clumsy little rascals...

Cheers,
Fred

Hello Fred,

Sentient beings are not enlightened because they do not meditate.
Yogis are not enlightened because they DO meditate!

You are right meditation is still a toy. One of the problems with writing is, one tries to keep the text short as to not bore people. However that leave much unsaid, so one hopes that someone will ask the next leading question, so we can continue along 'their' line of investigation. It is very difficult in writing to address a personal issue in public as others will grab hold of the wrong end of the stick. But slow we can all work together............I hope!

Tony

[Tony]

Hummmm...this sounds suspiciously the same as what I have been teaching on my website beyondvibration.org for a good while.

I would hate to think that someone has already ripped off my site. If you haven't checked it out and wish to, be my guest.

I actually teach you to do this rather than throwing words and ideas at you without giving you the tools to do this.

Sorry Tony, but I hope you didn't pay money to do this as my site is free.

Hi Animalspirits,after an admittedly quick glance at your site i cannot see what you are talking about re this thread, perhaps you can elucidate?


Hello Shijo,
I cribbed everything from the lamas!!! I do not have an original thought in my head.

Regards
Tony

[Tony]

Hi Pie

Welcome back. Hope you and Tarka had a wonderful holiday.

I knew that about there being no original thought, but I always thought there was a "universal subconscious" that we tuned into, rather than being targeted and having thoughts put in there. Hmmmmm, I'll be giving that idea my special attention over the next few days

Hello W1ndmill,
This is where the tricky subtleties begin, we are sort of receivers and transmitters, subsconscious and conscious. But the moment we claim it, it turns into a concept, and works against us. The path of perception is intertwined with the path of deception. Will explain more on my return, look up Mara activity.

Tony

Do you mean Letters from Mara? Reading now ......... this is very interesting Tony except that I feel I'm starting in the middle and need to go back to the very beginning, the basics. Unfortunately there appears to be no quick fix ... :)

Dear W1ndmill,
Maras will take a bit of explaining. Basically our minds are cluttered with our own afflictive emotions, because we want to maintain a reified (solid) view of ourselves and the world. This cannot be maintained indefinitely because something will come along to upset this, this is our karma at work. So when we feel that..I am not getting what I want, that is an internal mara (demon). It's ego wanting to say,"It's all about me!" External mara play on this, sometimes it is the "elite' or just someone having a go at us, because of their fixed idea about themselves and the world they have created. So life becomes a bit of a B----er! But they have no power over your pure natural state, they just twist their view of reality, and try to make us conform. Put it this way........love will always win! They haven't got a hope....poor B---ers.

We can talk more when I return,
Tony

[greybeard]

The biggest obstacle is the thought that I (me) am the doer.
All "I am" thoughts to be released.
I am a----
I am meditating.
All Identification with to be released.
Al labeling


That's funny, I just read this book about the violet flame. It's virtually all about reciting "I AM the violet flame" in many different variations and affirmations. Guy and Edna Ballard, who brought this violet flame to public awareness in the 30s even founded the I AM movement (http://www.saintgermainfoundation.org/), also called the Saint Germain Foundation.

I can tell, it works as it is supposed to, I stated before I like to experiment with different energies/aura colors/states of perception. I do this to examine them in introspect and to apply them in my daily life in whatever situation. I appreciate the violet flame energy very much, because when it comes to positively relating to people, being respectful, sympathetic, encouraging, finding words and actions that can be understood on the outside and staying balanced, humble and tranquil on the inside, I find this to be an amazing tool, easy and effective.

Having an awareness of subtle energies surely helps to utilize them properly and helps to discern traps, that suck or taint one's energy, knowing how to manipulate these energies productively is such a gift.

Anyways, banning words seems like a strange approach to me. The meaning is beyond words always, so what is it, that should be released? Well of course you said it. Identification with this ephemeral ego 'I', that thinks it's seperate from everything else. The thought that "I (me) am the doer", when this seemingly seperate 'I' is only the vehicle through which is done.

But it's perfectly fine to say "I am", I figure, especially when one has the understanding, that "I" means the universal mind. Then what comes after "I am" is simply the facet of the universal mind that is being focused on.



The action ocurs--- I am witnessing it--- yet I am also it. There is no subject and object.
The teacher and the taught are the same.
And on that goes.
There is no personal chris.
There is no person
Everything is moving spontaneously towards its full potential--- frame by frame in complete perfection.
Nothing is causing anything to happen--- it just is.

That's how I understand it, too. Just that I can see cause and effect in action everywhere, what do you mean with "nothing is causing anything to happen"? The way I understand it, the Creator lets his creation play out, lets it just be, but he created it in the first place, thus causing it. Within creation, that acts upon itself, cause and effect is the way to go, from how I see it, I'd love to hear your insight on that.

By the way, this leads me to my favourite pondering, what is the cause, that anything even exists at all? There could be just eternal infinite nothingness everywhere, but where would that be? Where did the first something come from and why and how?

Hi
Nothing is causing anything, if somthing is causing you have duality--- a this causing a that.

Take a marigold seed
The seed has the potential to become a full grown marigold.
Now if there some rain and the sun shines an environment is now suitable for the seed to become a shoot to become a bud to become a flower to become a wilting flower to become a dead flower---- perfect moment by moment.
The Sun the rain and the soil cant make any of that happen, the seed is just doing what it does. That process can stop at any moment the you have the perfect shoot for example.
Eventually you have the perfect dead flower.

Fact is I am ----- illusion is created the moment I identify with a function.
I am a bass guitarist no I play bass thats a function its not what I am.
"I am" stands without any function or label.
Its better to leave out am because it implies time being in time.
I --- does not need anything to be aware--- it just is.--- One without a second.
All easier said than done.
So words are not banned just the identification with them as the doer.
Yes we need words to function in the world but being aware that they describe a function not---
I.

Regards Chris

Ps nothing created you as you are time less, and eternal.
Words cant really convey that adequately.
You are a wave of the Divine ocean so you arose out of the ocean, as part of it, you always existed and will always be awareness-- you are eternal.

[Tony]

BTW, since Pie'n'eal has been gone for awhile, I would like to bring his attention (and to anyone else who missed it) to a lovely documentary which The One posted entitled Amongst White Clouds here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?29564-Amongst-White-Clouds&p=299829#post299829

We can talk more later!

[animalspirits]

Hummmm...this sounds suspiciously the same as what I have been teaching on my website beyondvibration.org for a good while.

I would hate to think that someone has already ripped off my site. If you haven't checked it out and wish to, be my guest.

I actually teach you to do this rather than throwing words and ideas at you without giving you the tools to do this.

Sorry Tony, but I hope you didn't pay money to do this as my site is free.

Hi Animalspirits,after an admittedly quick glance at your site i cannot see what you are talking about re this thread, perhaps you can elucidate?

No, if you didn't care enough to listen to the audios then I don't feel the need to elucidate any further.

I will say that it is about empowering each soul to do their own work and it is entirely free.

[animalspirits]

Hummmm...this sounds suspiciously the same as what I have been teaching on my website beyondvibration.org for a good while.

I would hate to think that someone has already ripped off my site. If you haven't checked it out and wish to, be my guest.

I actually teach you to do this rather than throwing words and ideas at you without giving you the tools to do this.

Sorry Tony, but I hope you didn't pay money to do this as my site is free.

Hi Animalspirits,after an admittedly quick glance at your site i cannot see what you are talking about re this thread, perhaps you can elucidate?


Hello Shijo,
I cribbed everything from the lamas!!! I do not have an original thought in my head.

Regards
Tony

Tony,

Try it sometime, you might like it. LOL

:kiss3:

[Ernie Nemeth]

Hi Tony,
Welcome back!

Excellent thread and topic.

I've been meditating for a long while now, not that I'm any sort of expert.
Recently, in meditation, I had a, what?, inspiration, message from higher self - whatever.
The suggestion was: try not thinking.

For me such a concept, except in meditation, is "unthinkable" (excuse the pun).
So I have been consciously "not thinking" for a week now (except for a slip on Sunday for whatever reason).
The results have been beyond my expectations. I'm calmer, synchronicities continue virtually unabated, and the world seems brighter and full of delightful mysteries that seem to unravel before my eyes. I am trying not to make much of it, good or bad.

Funny how I could not even contemplate such a thing as not thinking before. It is truly worth the effort. And I am surprised how effortless my "normal" days have become.

I'd like to ask a specific. I have been working on the flower of life and the spinning of the chakras into the merkhaba (don't know how to spell it, neither does my spell check). Is this something you have been trained on - is it worth pursuing? If it is, is there a specific way to do it?

Great stuff, glad to have you back!

[Tony]

Hi Tony,
Welcome back!

Excellent thread and topic.

I've been meditating for a long while now, not that I'm any sort of expert.
Recently, in meditation, I had a, what?, inspiration, message from higher self - whatever.
The suggestion was: try not thinking.

For me such a concept, except in meditation, is "unthinkable" (excuse the pun).
So I have been consciously "not thinking" for a week now (except for a slip on Sunday for whatever reason).
The results have been beyond my expectations. I'm calmer, synchronicities continue virtually unabated, and the world seems brighter and full of delightful mysteries that seem to unravel before my eyes. I am trying not to make much of it, good or bad.

Funny how I could not even contemplate such a thing as not thinking before. It is truly worth the effort. And I am surprised how effortless my "normal" days have become.

I'd like to ask a specific. I have been working on the flower of life and the spinning of the chakras into the merkhaba (don't know how to spell it, neither does my spell check). Is this something you have been trained on - is it worth pursuing? If it is, is there a specific way to do it?

Great stuff, glad to have you back!

Hello Ernie,

The only chakra I know about is the one three finger below the navel, the downward wind, called lung ( pronounced loong) this is to do with the subtle body and is very important.
It is do with feelings. I'm a bit hesitant to talk about this. No...it could be helpful. I'll get back to you.

All the best
Tony

[Tony]

Joining up the dots.

We all expect an answer to everything...now!
It does not work like that.
Gradually, our mind will realise the answer to our question. You will join up your own dots.
It all depends on the question we have in mind - a genuine question which matures and one that we analyse.
Then just remain open. Meditation will help this, because the mind will be clear. It's like being an open receiver.

Even the answer needs time to mature, and the meaning may even change, or refine.
One problem is that if we walk around with a head full of answers, they will be just concepts that we repeat.

Wisdom cannot be held on to. It is just there.

We have to be prepared to let go constantly, as our karma keeps spewing up memories and reactions, and so we maintain those fixated imprints in the mind. It is so important not to over-react!

None of these words are mine. They just come up, through mentally scanning the mind for teachings that I have received.
So although they seem to keep saying the same things as have been suggested before, they may be said in a slightly different way, and that may make a connection.
We all wish we had a ABC of information to get everything in the correct order – this can't really happen because we are all starting from different points of view...

In the Tibetan language, one word often has many meanings. This can be frustrating, as we tend to wish for a more precise word, but the Tibetan teachers say that we have to work things out ourselves - otherwise we would be being spoon-fed information instead of transforming it into knowledge through experience.

Conflict may arise in our mind, or as a reaction to something someone says – and this is a really good sign. That doesn't mean I am saying, go and look for conflict! It just means the ego/consciousness is reacting.
That is a moment in which change can occur. Just be aware.

Demons love us to be content, happy, living the good life....vegetables!
They also love us to get hot under the collar!
If we are somewhere in the middle - and questioning - then the demons can help exaggerate our reactions...which puts them in control.

This is the Kaliyuga, the age of strife.
However, a contented, happy and good life can be found, but now it is upgraded. Life may be uncomfortable - but acceptable.

Wisdom is knowing our true nature, which is empty cognisance/consciousness, manifesting as compassion. The negative emotions are an exaggeration of that wisdom.

With regard to the term 'empty essence', translators have had a difficult time trying to find the right words. 'Void' and 'nothingness' don't work. I equate emptiness with being pure and unfabricated. With regard to what creates everything, it is consciousness – a residue in consciousness - which keeps trying to create. That is why we are here, because we misunderstand or ignore our true nature.

To repeat, it takes some time to sink in and realise this. Beware of over-philosophising and arguing...it can bring up emotions which can become obstacles. Though I had said emotions are useful, you have to know their nature - otherwise you will just find yourself getting upset.

We are not competing with one another.
We are on our own journeys.
Sometimes we rub shoulders for a short while, and then move on.

Tony

[onawah]

I went back and re-read my post #36 in this thread with a list of questions for Pie'n'eal, and am, if anything, a bit more confused now about what would be considered on topic and what would be considered off topic for this thread.

I think I misunderstood the purpose of Pie'n'eal's post, to which my questions were addressed. Was it an article being written for another purpose other than this thread, perhaps? In which case, my questions were probably pretty irrelevant to this thread, and if that is the case, I apologize for any confusion I may have caused.

Pie'n'eal, inasmuch as you started this thread and obviously have much of value to share, I would still like to ask that you give some clarification as to what your purpose is with this thread and what your parameters might be, if any, so that other members might not unintentionally "de-rail" the thread.

Or perhaps you or other members might consider starting a few different threads, for example, one for beginning meditators who would like instruction, one for experienced meditators who would like to share their experiences and what they have learned, one for discussion of different methods of mediation, etc.

We might even request of the Mods that a separate sub forum for spiritual practice be created.
I am not needing an immediate answer--just wanted to avoid any more possible "muddying."
Namaste

[christian]

Take a marigold seed
The seed has the potential to become a full grown marigold.
Now if there some rain and the sun shines an environment is now suitable for the seed to become a shoot to become a bud to become a flower to become a wilting flower to become a dead flower---- perfect moment by moment.
The Sun the rain and the soil cant make any of that happen, the seed is just doing what it does.

I got two ideas coming up here:
1. So the sun doesn't make the seed a flower, because that's all the seed knows what to do, the circumstances don't tell the seed how to become a flower, it knows it all along. But still without sunlight, soil and water the seed wouldn't become a flower, hence something is triggering it, isn't it?
2. What about these experiments, that David Wilcock often cites, where scientists have an egg from species A and send waves through it that contain the information of species B and out of the egg will come an animal of species B. He illustrates possible effects of getting into another galactical alignment this way, is this not cause and effect on the egg?

I get the point, that one should not 'identify' with a process, it's possible to focus on a process, but that's not who 'I' truly am.

[RedeZra]

Nothing is causing anything, if somthing is causing you have duality--- a this causing a that.

Take a marigold seed
The seed has the potential to become a full grown marigold.
Now if there some rain and the sun shines an environment is now suitable for the seed to become a shoot to become a bud to become a flower to become a wilting flower to become a dead flower---- perfect moment by moment.
The Sun the rain and the soil cant make any of that happen, the seed is just doing what it does. That process can stop at any moment the you have the perfect shoot for example.
Eventually you have the perfect dead flower.




this is what the Buddha termed 'interdependent origination' as all phenomenons exist only interdependent on other phenomenons and their parts

inner and outer causes and inner and outer conditions lead to results

nothing exist alone

except Beyond Consciousness perhaps


the late Buddha who used to refer to Himself as the Tathagata refused to answer qustions about whether or not the Tathagata exist after death

[greybeard]

Take a marigold seed
The seed has the potential to become a full grown marigold.
Now if there some rain and the sun shines an environment is now suitable for the seed to become a shoot to become a bud to become a flower to become a wilting flower to become a dead flower---- perfect moment by moment.
The Sun the rain and the soil cant make any of that happen, the seed is just doing what it does.

I got two ideas coming up here:
1. So the sun doesn't make the seed a flower, because that's all the seed knows what to do, the circumstances don't tell the seed how to become a flower, it knows it all along. But still without sunlight, soil and water the seed wouldn't become a flower, hence something is triggering it, isn't it?
2. What about these experiments, that David Wilcock often cites, where scientists have an egg from species A and send waves through it that contain the information of species B and out of the egg will come an animal of species B. He illustrates possible effects of getting into another galactical alignment this way, is this not cause and effect on the egg?

I get the point, that one should not 'identify' with a process, it's possible to focus on a process, but that's not who 'I' truly am.

Yes Chiquetet
Catalyst is a good word.
Th environment has to be right but the seed may not sprout.
Many seeds are planted but not all flourish.
So even triggering does not cause all to grow.
Causing assume I have singlehanded created the end result
Any enlightened teaching is about getting away from duality.
Its quite subtle very important.
Part of the spiritual teaching is to promote humility.
I am responsible for my intention and actions but not the end result.
As a retired therapist I can say it was my intention to improve the life of a client but that did not always happen in spite of my best efforts.
I could not "save the world" either.
Regards Chris

[Tony]

I went back and re-read my post #36 in this thread with a list of questions for Pie'n'eal, and am, if anything, a bit more confused now about what would be considered on topic and what would be considered off topic for this thread.

I think I misunderstood the purpose of Pie'n'eal's post, to which my questions were addressed. Was it an article being written for another purpose other than this thread, perhaps? In which case, my questions were probably pretty irrelevant to this thread, and if that is the case, I apologize for any confusion I may have caused.

Pie'n'eal, inasmuch as you started this thread and obviously have much of value to share, I would still like to ask that you give some clarification as to what your purpose is with this thread and what your parameters might be, if any, so that other members might not unintentionally "de-rail" the thread.

Or perhaps you or other members might consider starting a few different threads, for example, one for beginning meditators who would like instruction, one for experienced meditators who would like to share their experiences and what they have learned, one for discussion of different methods of mediation, etc.

We might even request of the Mods that a separate sub forum for spiritual practice be created.
I am not needing an immediate answer--just wanted to avoid any more possible "muddying."
Namaste

Hello Onawah,
I am just a bit of a free spirit! You are right, the 'meditation for beginners' was for a different posting, but there was another post asking about meditation, so I just puts some basics on that post. While I was at it, I put it on this one as well. It's not complete, but it might help and it is all the same subject, and a bit of feed back is always welcome!

The only thing I wanted to avoid, was people arguing or getting aggressive. There have been too many posts destroyed by this, and it is unfair to others who come along later to follow a thread. I sometimes look at the end of a post to see what conclusions have been reached, only to find they in facebook mode! I sometimes wonder if this is done consciously, to distract from the subject!

Everyone seems to have a different view and this is to be respected. I welcome your comments.

One of the problems as I was explaining to Fred, is that to say everything would end up being a book. So one has to keep a post to a reasonable size, to take in what is being said, and people need time to digest.

There are many paths, the Tibetan path suits me, and I enjoy explaining it. It's like being a spiritual engineer, you take the thing apart and see what is left! I do like a bit of logic!!!!

Love
Tony

[onawah]

Yes, I agree it's important to avoid arguments, aggression, etc.
I didn't really understand what you were referring to re "reaching conclusions in facebook mode. Please explain.
I've been enjoying the discussion here, and am glad you are not wanting to limit it to only discussing one path, as I am very eclectic in this regard.
What most intrigues me is finding just a sentence here or there that really speaks to something I have been thinking about, and adds some new dimension to my perception.
That's been happening a lot for me on this thread.
The last one was written by Pie'n'eal and reads:
"Here we need to address nihilism and eternalism, the two extremes.
Nihilism means nothingness (which could lead to depression, with the idea of everything being pointless.
Eternalism means we are a fixed entity/identity (with no possibility of change).
Buddhism is in the middle - I'm not saying it's better, just more spacious!"
The idea of spaciousness is very Buddhist indeed.
It's a good remedy for the angst :drama:that can result from thinking too much about eternity. While the prospect of being an eternal soul can be an exhausting one! :twitch:
Nihilism is boring, scary and claustrophobic:pout:.)
But Buddhism does seem to find a happy bridge over these pitfalls. :dance3::crazy_pilot:

So please continue!
Thanks!

[Tony]

Five types of I.

If I mention the name Tibetan Buddhism it is only to qualify where this information comes from, it is not at all suggesting that buddhism is the only path, or you should become buddhists! Even then I have to qualify that this comes from the Nyingma tradition, and in that it comes from the Dzogchen understanding of reality. The Dzogchen teachings are very high and precious teachings which should not be taken lightly.

Tibetan Buddhism is more like a science, looking at the psychology of our make up – it takes the subject apart to see what is actually left. If you are satisfied with your own approach, then of course, you will stay with that. This is for people who may be interested in the way of Tibetan Buddhism – take it or leave it!

There are 5 types of 'I': the mere 'I', the reified 'I', the self-cherishing 'I', the social 'I' and what is termed the 'atman'. Normally we lump it all together, but that tends to muddy the mind. As we are not enlightened (sorry to be controversial here!), in meditation we work with the mere 'I', so there is a slight awareness of an observer. This is in terms of being practical, because we think that we can go straight to a realisation of emptiness – but that is not the case. It is like being barely aware, and this is a very useful practice.

The next is the reified 'I' (reified means to make real, or solid). This I makes everything around us real, and creates a lot of problems.

The self-cherishing 'I' is self evident – it's all about me! We relate everything to ourselves, which is when we start to get upset.

The social 'I' is created from the reaction of those around us, and we tend to feel we have to live up to that image. Our idea of who we are is built upon the reactions of those around us (this could be where mind control can slip in...).

The atman is thought of as an entity.

It is important to be aware of which 'I' is dominant in different situations. So when a situation arises one can know or experience what type of reaction is taking place internally. Is it a mere 'I', just observing or a self-cherishing 'I that is reacting in defence, etc?

There is no right or wrong, it is just being aware who or what is in control of the mind. Because our mind oscillate throughout the day due to distractions, being mindful of which 'I' is reacting can bring us back to the mere 'I', and a little bit of sanity.


Tony

[PurpleLama]

Could you elucidate further on "atman"?

[Mad Hatter]

G'day PIe'n'eal sounds lIke you enjoyed your retreat as much as I am enjoyIng the fruIt of that work here... :p

[zenith]

Hi Tony,

I find the symbolism of the letter 'I' interesting.
It's really a simple illustration of the spectrum of being.

'A' and 'M' also have intriguing interpretations. ;)


Peace

[Tony]

Could you elucidate further on "atman"?

I think this is a hindu description, in a belief of a fixed identity that reincarnates.
I must admit some of us looked at one another and wondered about that, I'll try and get
more clarification.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Hi Tony,

I find the symbolism of the letter 'I' interesting.
It's really a simple illustration of the spectrum of being.

'A' and 'M' also have intriguing interpretations. ;)


Peace

You have my interest!...could you explain a little more.

Tony

[bearcow]

Could you elucidate further on "atman"?

atman is essentially your higher self

by cultivating emptiness the atman gains control of the lower self and the process of enlightenment begins to unfold. the atman in turn becomes more self aware on its own plane of existence

[onawah]

From Wikipedia:
"Ātman (IAST: Ātman, Sanskrit: आत्मन्) is a Sanskrit word that means 'self'. In Hindu philosophy, especially in the Vedanta school of Hinduism it refers to one's true self beyond identification with phenomena. In order to attain salvation (liberation) a human being must acquire self-knowledge (atma jnana) which is to say realise experientially that one's true self is identical with the transcendent self (paramatman) that is called Brahman."

My first introduction to the word atman when I began studying Hinduism and Buddhism back in the 60s was that it refers to the purest essence of who we are as individuals, the drop of individual Consciousness in the sea of Universal Consciousness.
"Brahman" in Hinduism can be referring to either the God Brahman, one of the three major Gods of Hindusim.( Brahman is the lord of Creation, Vishnu being the Preserver and Shiva the lord of Destruction.)
Or "Brahman" can be referring to the Godhead itself, the Universal Consciousness.

[Fred Steeves]

From what I recall, the Tibetan born Dalai Lama prefers the anatman ( no soul ) teaching.

Cheers,
Fred

[Tony]

Something that Buddhist teaching implies is that emptiness is nothing and I have read elsewhere that that is misleading, it come from the philosophy of not this not this so that even love has to be released as an attachment.

If one believes this the one ends up in the void which is impressive but devoid of love-- then one has to reincarnate yet again to go beyond that concept.
In the state of enlightenment Love is and One is Love and on leaving this world one does not reincarnate, job done.
With the exception that one can choose to reincarnate to help he population advance spiritually--- only thing is you don't remember you volunteered.

Your thoughts on this appreciated Tony.
Chris
Namaste

Dear Chris,
Sorry I missed this! I'm still in New York and a bit bog-eyed!!!
Emptiness is not nothingness. It is total clarity, conscious and unimpeded compassion. That is in its pure sense - for us this is a 'baby' realisation, when we actually realise that instead of just repeating the words. However then comes the 'expression' of that pure consciousness, and then there is 'display' and then 'ornament' (this called Dharmakaya for Sanskrit enthusiasts = big realisation, but not enlightenment!).

Emptiness/consciousness is sort of dry, no emotions: that is when one is in meditation. With 'expression', a little ego is involved, to be able to play with the relative world...love!
I think 'display' is even more involvement, whereas 'Ornament' is full Dharmakaya realisation. But then we have to transcend the ten Bodhisattva Levels...!

So there is much to understand and realise. It is said that at so-called death, if one is advanced enough, one can go to higher realms to finish one's training, or choose to come back and continue here. But that is what reincarnate Tulkus are about - not us ...yet! (However, not all that glitters is gold, and the proof of the pudding is in the eating!)

What I am about to say may upset a few people (unintentionally), but when you know what you are doing, you do not forget! Tulkus sometimes leave letters to say where they will be reborn. Most of us have no control over our rebirth, but are driven by good or bad karma. We may have excellent intentions, but there are a lot of fixated concepts to cut through...we have been mistaken/ignorant for a very long time! I feel a lot of people are being mislead, both by their egos, and by 'others'.

One just has to read responses to see that it is still....."all about me!" We are all doing this - believing that there is a perceiver and the things perceived. We just cannot let go. Pure perception is very very subtle, and quite ordinary. Most of us seem to want a quick fix. Of course it is very alluring to think we do not have to do any work, because our true nature is enlightened! But this is wanting the golden roof before the foundations are prepared!

We have to start from where we are, and be honest. This is not at all easy, because of all the propaganda around us. Our own ego/consciousness will always twist reality: once that is seen, the propaganda cannot touch us. We have to stop blaming what is outside.It is we who hold on very tightly.

Tony

[greybeard]

Thanks Tony that is helpful
Compassion is highest form of love in human form anyway.
It gets complex and precise and that is fine when the there is enough study to understand the precision.
There is no room for misunderstanding.
The enlightened teacher I read is equally precise but again it takes study to get through the paradoxes that do arise.
Our paths are different but the end result will be the same
Greatest respect Chris
Namaste

[Tony]

I do not know what higher self means, maybe it is the same as one's true nature.

One's true nature has to be pure, meaning uncontrived, empty of any fabrications, totally exhausted fixations (karma). The emptiness of emptiness. Just clear.

It has to be aware or conscious or knowing. Awareness of awareness. Just perception.

To be enlightened one would have to realise these two qualities, plus one would also have compassion for all sentient beings who did not realise this.

So enlightenment has to have three qualities pure, knowing and compassionate.
Could this be the higher self?

So where is the problem, why aren't we enlightened? Well, through not understanding our true nature we have turned those three beautiful qualities into three poisons. Desire, aversion and ignorance. Because we relate everything to a solid fabricated self, we created ego and this solid looking universe that we inhabit!

So how did this come about? Well, we got too excited, and just do not notice our peaceful inner nature. We want more! We do not notice our empty essence, we ignore. Because of this ignorance our pure perception gets confused, so what we see, we desire. Having ignored our essence and having been taken over by desire, we judge others, aversion.

So from merely 'pure perception', we get 'my perception'. Instead of just viewing, we have my view!

These are the internal demons at work. The external demons feed this, and feed off this.

The point is to be free of the negative emotions, then we can engage in enlightened activity for the benefit of others. That is why we have to go beyond consciousness and meditate.

Going beyond consciousness, must be the higher self...?

Tony

[greybeard]

We can get into dificulties with words as the have the dictionary meaning, spiritual understanding, which varies from teaching to teaching.
The word Mind being a classic.

My understanding of Self is that there is only one Self--- the teacher and the taught are the same. (Self)
Self could also be considered to be Holy Spirit.

Chris

[bearcow]

"Ātman (IAST: Ātman, Sanskrit: आत्मन्) is a Sanskrit word that means 'self'. In Hindu philosophy, especially in the Vedanta school of Hinduism it refers to one's true self beyond identification with phenomena. In order to attain salvation (liberation) a human being must acquire self-knowledge (atma jnana) which is to say realise experientially that one's true self is identical with the transcendent self (paramatman) that is called Brahman."


our job spiritually is to aid the the atman to become or merge, depending on how you look at it with Paramatman



Most of us have no control over our rebirth, but are driven by good or bad karma. We may have excellent intentions, but there are a lot of fixated concepts to cut through...we have been mistaken/ignorant for a very long time! I feel a lot of people are being mislead, both by their egos, and by 'others'.


agree 100%

[grapevine]

Hi Pie and everyone .....

Have you ever done a silent retreat? I was very tempted, having watched The Big Silence last year on TV. They took 6 people from different walks of life and set them into an 8 day retreat in an Abbey in Sussex, England. It took a couple of days for them all to settle down but at the end ALL OF THEM BAR NONE had had a deeply religious/spiritual experience that sustained them and stayed with them for months afterwards. Reminded me of the yogis that take themselves off for months on end.......... I was very tempted to do one myself -

I would love to do one myself and to feel without any doubt whatsoever that I wasn't alone (I know that I'm not alone but sometimes - most times - I feel that I am alone - know what I mean?). But what put me off was the "crisis" that occurs beforehand. Can anyone shed more (positive) light on this phenomenon .....? Many thanks ...

[Tarka the Duck]

Hi Pie and everyone .....

Have you ever done a silent retreat? I was very tempted, having watched The Big Silence last year on TV. They took 6 people from different walks of life and set them into an 8 day retreat in an Abbey in Sussex, England. It took a couple of days for them all to settle down but at the end ALL OF THEM BAR NONE had had a deeply religious/spiritual experience that sustained them and stayed with them for months afterwards. Reminded me of the yogis that take themselves off for months on end.......... I was very tempted to do one myself -

I would love to do one myself and to feel without any doubt whatsoever that I wasn't alone (I know that I'm not alone but sometimes - most times - I feel that I am alone - know what I mean?). But what put me off was the "crisis" that occurs beforehand. Can anyone shed more (positive) light on this phenomenon .....? Many thanks ...

Hello W1ndmill

The Buddhist retreats that we do are always silent: two of them are for a week, and the third is normally a month, although this year it was only 10 days long.
I suppose we've been doing that for a long time now, so it doesn't feel alien - in fact, it is quite a relief to step into the silence.
It isn't a fix-all, but it does help with seeing the reactions and concepts that arise.
Some people choose to cut themselves off completely for this period: they prefer not to make eye contact or smile or acknowledge others at all. That can be a bit tough to deal with at first...holding a door open for someone, or passing them a plate and not getting any reaction whatsoever can be a little annoying! I've realised it's up to the individual how they interpret "silence" - I prefer some communication through smiles and meetings of eyes, but I have come to respect that others want to retreat inwards completely.
At the end of the month-long, there is a always a get together meal to break the silence - the noise level can be quite a shock :shocked:! One of the funniest things is finally talking to the person who has been sitting next to you for a month and - let's be honest here - seeing how 'accurate' your concepts are that you have formed based on your observations over that month!!;)
It really is no big deal. We're on our way home from retreat at the moment, and there were quite a few complete beginners attending the first week: from talking to a couple of them, they had been concerned about the silence but loved it once it got under way.
Hope that encourages you!
Kathie

PS I didn't see the programmes - can you say more about what that "crisis" was?

[onawah]

I've done quite a few silent retreats. The first and most powerful one was for three weeks at a Zen Center in the mountains of Virginia where I lived for a year in the late 60s.
There were only a few other people there for the first two weeks, and so talking was at a minimum in any case, and it was an easy transition.
I got to just be out in Nature on my own a lot of the time, and it was very peaceful and lovely.
The third week, the other members of the community returned, and it was much more challenging to maintain silence, because they wanted me to talk instead of write notes to them when communication was necessary.
By that time, I had come to a pretty good understanding of the value of silence and how much energy is saved by refraining from talking, also how much conversation is really unnecessary and silly. :blabla::mmph:
I would have gladly maintained my vow of silence, but I was asked not to.
It was quite painful to have to resume talking.

Years later, when I began going on occasional week long or weekend silent retreats, it was very nice to be able to share the silence with others.
I realized that to a great extent, I much prefer being in the company of others when we are all silent.
It is much easier to feel a sincere sense of communion in silence, I think. :grouphug:

I also don't know what the crisis is that w1ndmill refers to, but perhaps it's the feeling at first, after making the commitment to be silent, of feeling odd, awkward and/or unreal, especially when in a group of silent, relative strangers, as often happens in retreats.
One soon gets over it, I think, or if not, is in for an internal struggle.
I think a lot of it has to do with trust.
I know some cannot bear the transition to silence, and I have been at retreats where people just had to leave once they realized they couldn't handle it.
They just weren't ready for it.

I didn't see the TV programs either, but I know that the energy that builds in a place that has been held as sacred for a long time is potent, and can certainly be very instrumental in helping to initiate, deepen and strengthen a spiritual experience.
So too can the presence of others who have been living in a sacred space, both inner and outer.:angel:

[onawah]

The self, meaning the individual who is still unenlightened, is often characterized as "self" with a small "s", while the pure, Universal or Cosmic Consciousness of the Godhead (or whatever you want to call it) is characterized as "Self" with a capital "S". The two are not different, it is just that the "self" is still encumbered by layers of delusion which obscure the Light and Truth-- which are, however, clearly known and reflected by the Self (and are, indeed, characteristics of the Self).

[zenith]

Hi Tony,

I find the symbolism of the letter 'I' interesting.
It's really a simple illustration of the spectrum of being.

'A' and 'M' also have intriguing interpretations. ;)

You have my interest!...could you explain a little more.

Probably not much without sounding bonkers. ;)

With 'I' there's bridge/path/ladder symbolism connecting a higher 'there' and a lower 'here'.
'A' resembles a baseless mountain with a division half way up (or down). 'M' a valley between
two mountains, or perhaps a sine wave. Many readings are possible really with such simple forms.


Peace

[TraineeHuman]

Tony, some of the things you say are to me like beautiful music. But I do believe it’s unfortunate that you use the term “emptiness”, as that will confuse many Western people. You are after all referring – are you not? – to what gets left over when one empties one’s mind and awareness of all contents. It may be more useful to use some word like “everythingness,” or “universality, or “the transcendental”.

Basically, as I understand it, Buddhism teaches that the universe is God. So, whatever the universe does when it acts as one whole, that is the work of God. And the physical sciences simply investigate the “anatomy” of God, the methods and rules by which God acts and which even God cannot, generally, act in violation of.

One of the most well-known teachings of Buddhism is that nirvana (the transcendental world) and samsara (the world of separation and illusion) are one and the same thing. Similarly, probably the most well-known teaching of Advaita Vedanta (which includes gurus such as Ramana Maharshi, Aurobindo, Muktananda, Sai Baba, and so on and on) is that Atman is one and the same thing as Brahman. As Bearcow has mentioned, Brahman is the transcendental world of unity (and of total understanding), while Atman is the “I” that lies behind and in every “I” (and all love) that there is. They're really all the one thing anyway.

Yes, it does sound paradoxical. As you say, Tony, words don’t do it justice.

The important thing, it seems to me, is happiness. And learning how to stay permanently happy, regardless of what nasty things in this world of illusion you may be experiencing. Happiness is simple. In my experience, the secret to happiness, by the way, is not wanting anything (beyond what your body wants to stay alive and comfortable). Nice and simple. No big words there.

[grapevine]

Thanks Tarka and Onawah for the retreat information.

On the programme all the people who took part had issues, ie. things in their past relationships for instance. And as the silence went on their thoughts turned to their memories and they discovered a different perspective on their situation which in turn led to crisis and catharsis. So because I have issues myself (who doesn't), I wanted to avoid the pain and just experience the pleasure :) lol. Perhaps there are no short cuts.

If you are interested you can watch it free on this link ( http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/big-silence/)

[onawah]

As I understand it, w1ndmill, there is no way to "just experience the pleasure" .
But you can take a steep, swift and narrow path (like Zen, for example) and possibly get there faster, but it's more intense.
It's very normal for people to have "breakdowns" during intense retreats, but the peace and joy on the other side are generally considered to be worth it, I think.
It is also possible to avail oneself of various techniques (some are healing techniques, therapies, etc. ) to help get through the blocks with more ease.
The group I was practicing with at the Zen Center did a lot of group chanting, and we all found that to be very powerful, empowering and helpful in re-energizing and inspiring us.
It acted as a kind of sound therapy. When we closed our eyes and just became one with the sound and the vibrations it created, it was as if we all disappeared and became pure light and energy.

[Tony]

The Meaning of Words

If we can agree that pure being is beyond description, then it is beyond words.
So words can never be the actual experience.

In Tibetan, sometimes the same word has many meanings. To westerners, this may seem pointless as we want exact definitions, so that we can “learn” what is what.
Words are just information: it is experience that turns it into knowledge, and realisation that turns knowledge into wisdom.
You have to realise the meaning of the words.
Often, at retreats, people become hung up on words, and dictionary definitions, and the teaching can go off course for a while. This is how philosophers work: the intellectual mind likes nice, neat concepts. I know I do...!

But, to upgrade from a philosopher to a yogi, everything must be dropped.
I always argue with lamas that terminology and jargon can get in the way of experience.
They say, “Well, we have to say something, or there wouldn't be any teaching!”. This of course I couldn't disagree with!

So, we can talk about words, or we can talk about experience.

It is said that if two philosophers agree, they are not a philosophers.
If two yogis disagree, they are not yogis.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Conflict and Karma

The present moment is a creation of our past karma.
If no reaction takes place, no karma is produced.
Karma is a storehouse of our past reactions and actions.
It is the filter through which we see everything.
The sixth consciousness (perception) immediately relates to the seventh consciousness (judgement).
This in turn relates to the eighth consciousness (the storehouse) to see whether it likes what it sees, or not.
This is the habitual pattern that we have set up for ourselves.
And this is precisely why the same things keep happening to us, and we go around in circles. This is because we live through one of the four “I”s (I have dropped the atman for the moment, as it seems to be causing confusion...).
The main three I's through which we work are the self-cherishing, the social and the reified I's.
Anything that appears in the present moment is a product of the past – this includes thoughts and emotions. At that moment, don't feel guilty about any thoughts that may occur as they are just a product of the past. If no reaction takes place, no karma is being produced.
A retreat, or a forum, can seem to be a catalyst for conflict. However, it is a perfect place to practise - to practise the real Dharma.

Going back to words and meaning: in outer communication, we are trying to translate what we experience. However, experience is always obscured by what is in our storehouse that we are carrying around, so generally, we just repeat the same things time after time – so recreating the habitual pattern, going round in circles!
The cause for enlightenment is to genuinely experience one's true nature, to wake up – and also to exhaust all of one's karma, which, until then, holds us in a cyclic pattern.

[Tony]

Going round in circles.

We are dealing with a world that is either bonkers, inept or very smart and controlling. As we are on a conspiracy/alternative type site let's take it that there is a controlling element to this world, and they are quite clever. I mean really clever!

If so, they would like nothing better than to watch us go round in circles. It keeps us busy and very distracted, and to not put a too finer point on it...dozy!

So we have to be quite a bit smarter than we are now, there is no calvary coming to save us. One thing we can be is wiser. To do this we have to stop, just repeating the same old things we have been taught and acquired, they haven't done us much good so far, except for wishful thinking.

We have to break out of our habitual patterns. This may feel a little uncomfortable, if comfort is your thing, do not read on! Just joking......not really!

We know that the controlling element are logical and precise, this could mean that they are mechanical and some of them are occult based. I'm guessing they also lack humour ( except when laughing at us) they lack warmth and compassion. They are not free spirits!

So we must stop arguing amongst ourselves, and stop trying to score points. Everyone has a view which probably differs from ours and we all have emotions. Both these aspects are of value and can be refined and upgraded, with a little help from our friends.

We are all unique in this universe, and will one day become a buddha. So our individual path is special, though we can have a meeting of mind with others. There is a sort of oneness, but we do not all merge into on great ocean! All previous enlightened being kept their individuality.

We can encourage one another more, in an intelligent way, by considering what others are saying.
But we must also stop wild speculations, it does our credibility a lot of harm. Remember the boy who kept crying wolf...in the end on one believed him, when the wolf actually came!

What we have arrived at is a lot of videos and commentary all repeating the same thing as if we are now experts, which could be mistaken. Remember the so called controllers are not daft. I met with others in America who think that sites like this have been got at!

Absolute Truth can only be found in something that is constant. If a thing is real, or truly existing it cannot have a beginning and end. If it has a beginning and an end it is only true or existing for a period of time, that is not a constant!

Gradually we have to be convinced that truth is beyond concepts and phenomena. That is the only way to find inner peace and finally enlightenment. Otherwise we just waste time.

Of course this place could be the perfect place to practise, if we practise...!

[Martin]

Wonderful post pie'n'eal. Thank you for your "rumblings" of wisdom. Just kidding. ;)

Martin

[greybeard]

Yes Tony Im in agreement with you regarding words and many other things you share
The bird does not know that it is bird, or that is flying, or even how to---- it just is.

The enlightened ones say that it (The State of enlightenment) is something which can not be spoken of as the moment it is vocalised it become a concept and that is something which we can have an opinion on or debate or disagree about.

Absolute Truth is not negotiable.

Heart2hearth told me that many years ago.

Namaste

Chris

[onawah]

Thus we have Zen!
Zen Masters were legendarily so attuned to the process of "breaking through" the blocks that get in the way of experience, they were said to be able to sense when a student is at that critical point and confound their intellectual or conceptual constructions with a nonsensical question or declaration, or even just a well-aimed blow on the back with a stick, which would, if successful, take the student to the next level in a burst of satori.

This unconventional tradition came about because of this very dilemma that Pie'n'eal described.
Although in Zen, instead of concluding "Well, we have to say something, or there wouldn't be any teaching!” , the Zen Masters resorted to other sorts of "skillful means".
I think that over the centuries, unfortunately, much of the original "juice" of the great Zen Masters was lost, though their inimitable stories live on.

Pie'n'eal wrote:
"But, to upgrade from a philosopher to a yogi, everything must be dropped.
I always argue with lamas that terminology and jargon can get in the way of experience.
They say, “Well, we have to say something, or there wouldn't be any teaching!”. This of course I couldn't disagree with!"

[Mark]

I'm looking forward to the practice, especially here. I agree that forums are a good place to do so, you have some space between reading and replying. LOL It's a good start ...

[Tony]

Practice.

Unfortunately, this is a conspiracy site and not a spiritual practice site, so there is much that cannot be discussed, due to wild personal opinions and speculations. I wish I had more words to describe what is, and what is not, going on.

People seem to want more and more excitement, so the simple, quiet aspects of our being go unnoticed. Some notice, but for most it is a personal “I do it my way!” which may be ok for that person, but does not add much to an expansion of view, of going further. It is strange how so many people assume they have arrived!

Genuine practice produces very subtle questioning, not just “I read in a book and it says...such and such!” I can only repeat that knowledge comes from practice, and not from a book. Knowledge comes from a genuinely quiet mind. But just saying that...this it not necessarily true. We can investigate this together, but only with practitioners.

We may be on different paths, but for a while we can work together, and then happily depart because of slightly different satisfaction needs.

Let's take what I just said...a genuine quiet mind. At the beginning of our meditation life we block all thoughts: this helps with concentration. But gradually the mind expands, and becomes more spacious so thoughts are allowed in - it can accommodate anything, only we do not hold onto it. You are now free from attachment. But one cannot just go there without some preliminary work. It is the same with further stages. But there are also very subtle attachments, and the devil knows this!

Do not just accept what is written; investigate, see how it feels. Do not just acquire more concepts, more clever words..! Otherwise you will only go round in circles...seeing that is where the humour lies, and also compassion for self and other.

Stay with your path, and look more closely at it. If it satisfactory and you are confident, stay with it.
However, be careful of not mixing paths, as you will reach a point of inner conflict, like sewing with a two headed needle.

Raising consciousness, is raising awareness. It is refining perception. The subtle differences are beyond clever words. The ultimate is a unity of pure perception and pure emptiness. It is not a sudden jump ( though there are rare occasions ). Rather, it is a gradual awakening. It is definitely not aggressive. Aggression is saying more about the aggressor, than the thing they are angry at.

The mess that this planet is in is because of us. If we can purify our perception, then everything can change. It is easy to say, “I am pure perception!”....the answer is not yet, not yet.

The moment of death is the test, through your last thoughts.
If you have not practised your whole life, there is no telling what your lasts thought will be!


All the best
Tony

[greybeard]

I would just post what you feel inclined to Tony.
Yes the last thoughts just as you die are important as they take you to the "heaven" of your thoughts.

Bet wishes and appreciation for what you are and convey.

Chris

[onawah]

This may be a bit off topic, but for those interested in Tibetan Buddhism, it's certainly interesting;
See the video about Oracles in Tibetan Buddhism embedded in the thread at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ1VvvrAILo&feature=player_embedded

Interviews with the Dalia Lama and much more.

[truthseekerdan]

Hi Tony,

My answer is short: Beyond consciousness is infinite awareness and possibilities.

QRAZMI-556Q

Much Love & Wisdom

[Mark]

Hi Tony, well, I practice Shamatha meditation pretty regularly. Last summer I was priviledged to spend a couple days a week at the Shambhala meditation center in DC when I lived there, and so was able to have the personal instruction that I think is necessary for correct practice. I don't meditate all the time, but I'm trying to increase my practice as my spirit seems to be calling me to do so. I experienced a couple of important landmarks, the primary one of which was the opening of my heart, when conducting a group meditation at one of the seminars last year.

I understand what you mean about the argumentation. It is often too much even for a space like this and, imho, a bit suspect on some of the petty things people choose to argue about while ignoring the larger point. I should have expected it, having spent time moderating and administrating forums before but still ... everything must serve its purpose I suppose. And the good thing is that we can make connections and find the gems hidden among the mud, like this thread. Thanks for the time and energy. Those who need to are paying attention in silent contemplation.

[Tony]

Hi Tony, well, I practice Shamatha meditation pretty regularly. Last summer I was priviledged to spend a couple days a week at the Shambhala meditation center in DC when I lived there, and so was able to have the personal instruction that I think is necessary for correct practice. I don't meditate all the time, but I'm trying to increase my practice as my spirit seems to be calling me to do so. I experienced a couple of important landmarks, the primary one of which was the opening of my heart, when conducting a group meditation at one of the seminars last year.

I understand what you mean about the argumentation. It is often too much even for a space like this and, imho, a bit suspect on some of the petty things people choose to argue about while ignoring the larger point. I should have expected it, having spent time moderating and administrating forums before but still ... everything must serve its purpose I suppose. And the good thing is that we can make connections and find the gems hidden among the mud, like this thread. Thanks for the time and energy. Those who need to are paying attention in silent contemplation.

Dear Rahkyt,
Connecting is so very important, it reveals spaciousness, generosity and
compassion!

This is why those who wish to be in charge haven't a hope of finding happiness, with their current pursuits. One day they too will stop and wonder, " What is it all about?" Why not do it now, it is never too late, the sooner the better!


All the best
Tony

[Heart-2-Heart]

Practice.

Unfortunately, this is a conspiracy site and not a spiritual practice site, so there is much that cannot be discussed, due to wild personal opinions and speculations. I wish I had more words to describe what is, and what is not, going on.

People seem to want more and more excitement, so the simple, quiet aspects of our being go unnoticed. Some notice, but for most it is a personal “I do it my way!” which may be ok for that person, but does not add much to an expansion of view, of going further. It is strange how so many people assume they have arrived!

Genuine practice produces very subtle questioning, not just “I read in a book and it says...such and such!” I can only repeat that knowledge comes from practice, and not from a book. Knowledge comes from a genuinely quiet mind. But just saying that...this it not necessarily true. We can investigate this together, but only with practitioners.

We may be on different paths, but for a while we can work together, and then happily depart because of slightly different satisfaction needs.

Let's take what I just said...a genuine quiet mind. At the beginning of our meditation life we block all thoughts: this helps with concentration. But gradually the mind expands, and becomes more spacious so thoughts are allowed in - it can accommodate anything, only we do not hold onto it. You are now free from attachment. But one cannot just go there without some preliminary work. It is the same with further stages. But there are also very subtle attachments, and the devil knows this!

Do not just accept what is written; investigate, see how it feels. Do not just acquire more concepts, more clever words..! Otherwise you will only go round in circles...seeing that is where the humour lies, and also compassion for self and other.

Stay with your path, and look more closely at it. If it satisfactory and you are confident, stay with it.
However, be careful of not mixing paths, as you will reach a point of inner conflict, like sewing with a two headed needle.

Raising consciousness, is raising awareness. It is refining perception. The subtle differences are beyond clever words. The ultimate is a unity of pure perception and pure emptiness. It is not a sudden jump ( though there are rare occasions ). Rather, it is a gradual awakening. It is definitely not aggressive. Aggression is saying more about the aggressor, than the thing they are angry at.

The mess that this planet is in is because of us. If we can purify our perception, then everything can change. It is easy to say, “I am pure perception!”....the answer is not yet, not yet.

The moment of death is the test, through your last thoughts.
If you have not practised your whole life, there is no telling what your lasts thought will be!


All the best
Tony

The moment of death ...

A wealthy Indian shopkeeper was lying on his deathbed with only a few minutes left ....He called out for his sons...
Arjuna.. are you here ...yes dad I am here...
Ramana... are you here...yes dad I am here....
Krishna....are you here.....yes dad I am here.....

So you are all here.........who the Hell is looking after the shop then.....

He farted once and left his body...
:clock:

Be aware of your last thoughts.....
H2h

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Thanks Tarka and Onawah for the retreat information.

On the programme all the people who took part had issues, ie. things in their past relationships for instance. And as the silence went on their thoughts turned to their memories and they discovered a different perspective on their situation which in turn led to crisis and catharsis. So because I have issues myself (who doesn't), I wanted to avoid the pain and just experience the pleasure :) lol. Perhaps there are no short cuts.

If you are interested you can watch it free on this link ( http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/big-silence/)


w1ndmill, I would like to thank you personally for the link to the documentary.
I watched all 3 hours this morning and found it quite profound and moving.
Taking the religious story out of it, the overall message was loud and clear:- that much is to be gained by "The Big Silence".
One can see how each person fights their own demons when all ´noise´ has been completely cut off.

Their journey, albeit in a monestary(as a working place), seems no other than what Toy suggests here :-



So where is the problem, why aren't we enlightened? Well, through not understanding our true nature we have turned those three beautiful qualities into three poisons. Desire, aversion and ignorance. Because we relate everything to a solid fabricated self, we created ego and this solid looking universe that we inhabit!

So how did this come about? Well, we got too excited, and just do not notice our peaceful inner nature. We want more! We do not notice our empty essence, we ignore. Because of this ignorance our pure perception gets confused, so what we see, we desire. Having ignored our essence and having been taken over by desire, we judge others, aversion.

So from merely 'pure perception', we get 'my perception'. Instead of just viewing, we have my view!

These are the internal demons at work. The external demons feed this, and feed off this.

The point is to be free of the negative emotions, then we can engage in enlightened activity for the benefit of others. That is why we have to go beyond consciousness and meditate.



In the end, we all arrive at the same destination, it´s the journey that is interesting.
I appreciate all comments and ideas in this thread, that have spurred an inner resolve to "work" on myself.
In deep gratitude
Ineffable Hitchhiker

[grapevine]

" The mess that this planet is in is because of us. If we can purify our perception, then everything can change. It is easy to say, “I am pure perception!”....the answer is not yet, not yet " - quote from Pie

I agree with that wholeheartedly Pie and not even in the spiritual sense that you mean it. I was having a conversation with my daughter on the way back from the supermarket last night and we agreed that day follows night follows day follows night and the only thing that changes over the day/night is our perception. A good example of this would be Nelson Mandela being perceived by the world as a terrorist one day and the next being perceived by the world as the President of South Africa. That is also why, when you read somebody's post you get something different out of it the next time you read it. And these are just two small - unspiritual - perceptions. I guess duality is perception too ...?.

But . . . what do you mean by "I am pure perception. . . not yet not yet" ? - or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick? :)

[Tony]

Thanks Tarka and Onawah for the retreat information.

On the programme all the people who took part had issues, ie. things in their past relationships for instance. And as the silence went on their thoughts turned to their memories and they discovered a different perspective on their situation which in turn led to crisis and catharsis. So because I have issues myself (who doesn't), I wanted to avoid the pain and just experience the pleasure :) lol. Perhaps there are no short cuts.

If you are interested you can watch it free on this link ( http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/big-silence/)


w1ndmill, I would like to thank you personally for the link to the documentary.
I watched all 3 hours this morning and found it quite profound and moving.
Taking the religious story out of it, the overall message was loud and clear:- that much is to be gained by "The Big Silence".
One can see how each person fights their own demons when all ´noise´ has been completely cut off.

Their journey, albeit in a monestary(as a working place), seems no other than what Toy suggests here :-



So where is the problem, why aren't we enlightened? Well, through not understanding our true nature we have turned those three beautiful qualities into three poisons. Desire, aversion and ignorance. Because we relate everything to a solid fabricated self, we created ego and this solid looking universe that we inhabit!

So how did this come about? Well, we got too excited, and just do not notice our peaceful inner nature. We want more! We do not notice our empty essence, we ignore. Because of this ignorance our pure perception gets confused, so what we see, we desire. Having ignored our essence and having been taken over by desire, we judge others, aversion.

So from merely 'pure perception', we get 'my perception'. Instead of just viewing, we have my view!

These are the internal demons at work. The external demons feed this, and feed off this.

The point is to be free of the negative emotions, then we can engage in enlightened activity for the benefit of others. That is why we have to go beyond consciousness and meditate.



In the end, we all arrive at the same destination, it´s the journey that is interesting.
I appreciate all comments and ideas in this thread, that have spurred an inner resolve to "work" on myself.
In deep gratitude
Ineffable Hitchhiker

I think you are right, finally we all arrive at the same destination, though maintaining a uniqueness.
It will also depend how directly you want to get there.
The understanding of that goal can change.
Once you are enlightened, what are you going to do?

It is interesting that we are longing for something that we do not fully understand, but we know is right.

All the best
Tony

[Tony]

" The mess that this planet is in is because of us. If we can purify our perception, then everything can change. It is easy to say, “I am pure perception!”....the answer is not yet, not yet " - quote from Pie

I agree with that wholeheartedly Pie and not even in the spiritual sense that you mean it. I was having a conversation with my daughter on the way back from the supermarket last night and we agreed that day follows night follows day follows night and the only thing that changes over the day/night is our perception. A good example of this would be Nelson Mandela being perceived by the world as a terrorist one day and the next being perceived by the world as the President of South Africa. That is also why, when you read somebody's post you get something different out of it the next time you read it. And these are just two small - unspiritual - perceptions. I guess duality is perception too ...?.

But . . . what do you mean by "I am pure perception. . . not yet not yet" ? - or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick? :)

Dear W1ndmill,
Those small changes are huge changes, to change at all is an achievement. We are pure perception, but we just miss realising it, here I am only generalising. On retreats we spend hours discussing and experimenting with pure perception and 'my' perception. It is so easy to be caught in duality of me and it, subject and object, perceiver and the thing perceived.

There are two ways of knowing pure perception, one through insight meditation (Vipashana), this is the long method. The other is the direct 'pointing out instruction' short and sharp. But that has to be delivered at the right time to the right person.

The reason I say not yet, is just a little caution which may upset people. Resting in pure perception is the most simplest, most ordinary thing in the universe, but we have clung to a mistaken reality for a very long time. Who knows this time we are going through may accelerate the process or may be a huge distraction.

A sudden shock, sneeze, the moment of waking in the morning, an orgasm...can produce a moment of pure awareness, but habits cloud back in very quickly.
The answer is meditation and constantly letting be, not modifying whatever appears. Short moment many times helps, as we can easily go into a state, so we must break the meditation.

Tony