A note to my daughter's teachers

[Dennis Leahy]

(There wasn't really anywhere on the forum dedicated to "education", so I'm putting this into news and Updates for now.)

The following chunk of text is the middle of a note I just sent to my daughter's three main teachers (7th grade.) I thought it might be worth sharing here (I replaced my daughter's name - not important in this setting. It was directed to her new teacher (teaching science and literature), and cc'd to the other (math, art, social studies/geography, computer) teachers. The new science teacher had sent out an intro/bio and mentioned that she is very excited about teaching science.

They have stated that typically they will send home about 90 minutes of homework each night.

Also, the wonderful, kooky, fiery-eyed, paint speckled art teacher that is an artist was "downsized" out of a job, and art is now being taught by someone who knows a bit of art technique, but seems to me to be very left-brain dominant.

==========================================


I do have some very strong opinions and novel ideas about education that differ from what have been molded into what we'd call modern traditional education, ([my daughter] does hear me rant about this a bit), but I do also work within the system's existing parameters and let [my daughter] know that she needs to do the same. I was excited to read your excitement in teaching science, and hope you can help to ignite and fan the flames of [my daughter]'s scientific curiosity and help her see practical examples of science and scientific principles in everyday life, to instill the notion of being immersed in and encountering science all the time as we go through life. The other thing that I hope you can help me to give [my daughter] is as much freedom in right-brain activity as possible, fostering creativity and exploration over technique and rote memorization. Modern education is heavily skewed to left brain, and children are measured too much on left brain functionality (partly because it is so much easier to quantify and measure for grading.) Sixty or seventy years ago, educators were encouraged to (try to) beat the left-handedness out of the unfortunate souls that happen to have been born left-handed; now it seems that educators are encouraged to beat the right-brained functionality out of children, in a mistaken notion that only science and math define a viable skillset in a global economy. I believe this approach lacks balance, fosters and measures only half of a child's mental and emotional progress, and stunts right-brain development in proportion to each child's natural inclination along the left-brain/right-brain continuum. While it is true that you can always find creative adults in society, note the relative mediocrity of art and music and literature in American society right now and in the past few decades. It makes sense, as we have been leaning more and more heavily on left-brain education. The US doesn't just need superb mathematicians and scientists, we need (and deserve) an equal blossoming - a renaissance - in literature, poetry, songwriting, musical composing and performance, theater, and in the arts in every possible expressive media.

The last thing I'll mention, (since I seem to have ascended my soapbox), is that after-school enrichment activities, family time, and wind-down time are all critical for development of a well-rounded and healthy kid and healthy family life. My own feelings, and the research I've done, point to happier, healthier, better balanced, more integrated (into family and community), more stress-free kids that still can score high enough on standardized testing - without homework. A pile of homework nightly robs the parents of sharing time with them. It is said that parents are the number one teacher in a child's life, but as the child progresses through the school system, parents get less and less of the after-school time to affect the child's life experiences and to provide broader, more cultural, more life-practical, more family-centric learning modes and opportunities than homework could ever provide. Said more succinctly, we entrust our kids to teachers seven hours a day, and frankly, that should be enough. Give us our family time back. Give us our kids back. Please keep homework to an absolute minimum. While you have them in your classroom, use humor and unconventional methods to keep them from drifting. Challenge the children to focus and learn the material quickly, and let them know that your intent is not to give any homework at all and their reward for staying focused is to not get any homework at all.

[ktlight]

DH
parents get less and less of the after-school time to affect the child's life experiences and to provide broader, more cultural, more life-practical, more family-centric learning modes and opportunities than homework could ever provide. Said more succinctly, we entrust our kids to teachers seven hours a day, and frankly, that should be enough. Give us our family time back. Give us our kids back. Please keep homework to an absolute minimum. While you have them in your classroom, use humor and unconventional methods to keep them from drifting. Challenge the children to focus and learn the material quickly, and let them know that your intent is not to give any homework at all and their reward for staying focused is to not get any homework at all.

I wonder if they had thought about this, whether it had even crossed their minds?

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

That was truly inspirational.
What a heartfelt, honest and insightful letter.

You have planted these seeds of wisdom and with a lot of luck, hopefully, some of the ideas you shared will come into fruition.


A pile of homework nightly robs the parents of sharing time with them. It is said that parents are the number one teacher in a child's life, but as the child progresses through the school system, parents get less and less of the after-school time to affect the child's life experiences and to provide broader, more cultural, more life-practical, more family-centric learning modes and opportunities than homework could ever provide....Give us our family time back. Give us our kids back.

Well said!

[crosby]

Hi Dennis, that is a great letter. i remember when my daughters were still in junior high and having to do something similar with an english teacher. it wasn't specifically geared toward a time redirect, but to the in-depth value of conjoining artistic implications into hand written reports for a Romeo and Juliet scenario. i remember the eldest of my twins had used the color pink in the font of her cover page and her teacher gave her a zero, just because in her (teacher) mind, "pink is not a color we use in font production." there were no rules to the artistic endeavor before the children, they were plainly told, make a cover page and use color, drawings and put your heart into it. i was irritated at best and ready to remove my daughter from the class at worst; the very idea of bringing art into the english literature area is fantastic., it gives all of the children a chance to demonstrate what they can perceive as their own artistic endeavor - perhaps for some, bringing their acute literature abilities to the surface. however, art is a subjective matter and use of color no less subjective. when i approached my daughters' teacher regarding this issue, she could not understand why i couldn't understand her reasoning. and she could not understand the boundaries of her limits. we went around about this issue until i finally went over her head. in the end, her grade was changed and was based upon the merit of her writing abilities and her fundamental thought process involved. pink may not have been the teachers' favorite font color, but in the end, that is just opinion. it ruled her decision based on subjectivity. and the teacher was told that if she is going to include a child's perspective artistically in a written assignment, subjectivity must play a crucial role.

this is an interesting new area of discussion for us avalonians. (i hope the mods will make a space for educational aspects)-- i so appreciate it. i hope your letter strikes at the core of this teacher's fundamental values. please give us an update when you can to let us know how your daughters' teacher responds. a most fascinating topic. thanks so much.
warmest regards, corson

[Ilie Pandia]

Hey Dennis,

Hopefully you'll get to be my teacher in some "future life" :biggrin:

No homework? You'd be my favorite teacher in no time :P!

Great letter and may it be well received!

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Wow! Huge respect to you corson.
Not only did you manage to change the final result but you positively affected the thought process of the teacher. :humble:



this is an interesting new area of discussion for us avalonians. (i hope the mods will make a space for educational aspects)-- i so appreciate it.


Yes!
These are important "teachings" from fellow Avalonians for future reference.
This wonderful thread might get drowned in the News and Updates section (unless we bump it continuously :P ).
Pehaps this would be better served in another part of the forum.

[folotheflo]

full power to you dennis, that's an awesome communication. i reckon we should all take a leaf out of your book, to attain ascended soapbox master status in the field of entrusting our children to the mainstream education system

[mahalall]

An Example of a pupils left sided frustration and attempting the express right sided creativity.

After the summer holidays a Lancaster boys Grammer School student found himself expelled. During the holidays he hacked into the schools bank account and bought a one way ticket to Tokyo for the headmaster!!
( it's true).
A brick breaking free,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4SKL7f9n58

[Eric J (Viking)]

(There wasn't really anywhere on the forum dedicated to "education", so I'm putting this into news and Updates for now.)

The following chunk of text is the middle of a note I just sent to my daughter's three main teachers (7th grade.) I thought it might be worth sharing here (I replaced my daughter's name - not important in this setting. It was directed to her new teacher (teaching science and literature), and cc'd to the other (math, art, social studies/geography, computer) teachers. The new science teacher had sent out an intro/bio and mentioned that she is very excited about teaching science.

They have stated that typically they will send home about 90 minutes of homework each night.

Also, the wonderful, kooky, fiery-eyed, paint speckled art teacher that is an artist was "downsized" out of a job, and art is now being taught by someone who knows a bit of art technique, but seems to me to be very left-brain dominant.

==========================================


I do have some very strong opinions and novel ideas about education that differ from what have been molded into what we'd call modern traditional education, ([my daughter] does hear me rant about this a bit), but I do also work within the system's existing parameters and let [my daughter] know that she needs to do the same. I was excited to read your excitement in teaching science, and hope you can help to ignite and fan the flames of [my daughter]'s scientific curiosity and help her see practical examples of science and scientific principles in everyday life, to instill the notion of being immersed in and encountering science all the time as we go through life. The other thing that I hope you can help me to give [my daughter] is as much freedom in right-brain activity as possible, fostering creativity and exploration over technique and rote memorization. Modern education is heavily skewed to left brain, and children are measured too much on left brain functionality (partly because it is so much easier to quantify and measure for grading.) Sixty or seventy years ago, educators were encouraged to (try to) beat the left-handedness out of the unfortunate souls that happen to have been born left-handed; now it seems that educators are encouraged to beat the right-brained functionality out of children, in a mistaken notion that only science and math define a viable skillset in a global economy. I believe this approach lacks balance, fosters and measures only half of a child's mental and emotional progress, and stunts right-brain development in proportion to each child's natural inclination along the left-brain/right-brain continuum. While it is true that you can always find creative adults in society, note the relative mediocrity of art and music and literature in American society right now and in the past few decades. It makes sense, as we have been leaning more and more heavily on left-brain education. The US doesn't just need superb mathematicians and scientists, we need (and deserve) an equal blossoming - a renaissance - in literature, poetry, songwriting, musical composing and performance, theater, and in the arts in every possible expressive media.

The last thing I'll mention, (since I seem to have ascended my soapbox), is that after-school enrichment activities, family time, and wind-down time are all critical for development of a well-rounded and healthy kid and healthy family life. My own feelings, and the research I've done, point to happier, healthier, better balanced, more integrated (into family and community), more stress-free kids that still can score high enough on standardized testing - without homework. A pile of homework nightly robs the parents of sharing time with them. It is said that parents are the number one teacher in a child's life, but as the child progresses through the school system, parents get less and less of the after-school time to affect the child's life experiences and to provide broader, more cultural, more life-practical, more family-centric learning modes and opportunities than homework could ever provide. Said more succinctly, we entrust our kids to teachers seven hours a day, and frankly, that should be enough. Give us our family time back. Give us our kids back. Please keep homework to an absolute minimum. While you have them in your classroom, use humor and unconventional methods to keep them from drifting. Challenge the children to focus and learn the material quickly, and let them know that your intent is not to give any homework at all and their reward for staying focused is to not get any homework at all.

Brilliant Denis ... I have 4 kids myself and agree 100% with you...we are being robbed of very special time with them.

It seems none stop at the moment...study study study...keep them occupied...I think its designed this way for maximum distraction...get them young!!

Love the second paragraph...thanks.

viking

[777]

That's a great letter Dennis, which I fully agree with! I have two kids myself of school age (and want more.....) and I find myself frstrated with not just the lies they have to rote learn to sit a life-inapropriate test but also the sheer quantity of lies and deception in order to facilitate this.

I find myself constantly torn between pouring time into them to help them in a system where they would otherwise be left behind OR adjusting what they learn to something nearer the truth than that which they're taught. This won't help them in an exam so I then feel guilty.......

Alongside though, I fully aim to provide a life for them that doesn't depend on good grades and there's many ways to do that.

Cheers Dennis, great post.

[Corncrake]

Denis - you are a rare father. Interesting thread. We have forgone many material things so we can be here for our children. So many of my children's friends don't see their fathers - they leave home early, get back late and travel abroad. Some of their mothers do the same. Of course there are people who need two salaries just to subsist but this is not the case here. My brother in law sent his children to boarding school and considered because he was paying enormous fees that that was the end of his responsibility! I believe parents and teachers have a partnership and should work together. In the UK students have to specialise and give up subjects really early on starting at about 13 - this means my son has had to give up music and art to fit into the school curriculum. To try and redress the balance I take him to the theatre and concerts and occasionally drag him (it has to be admitted) around an art gallery. Coming from an arts background myself I think this is important. My daughter has just started her last year at school and my son his penultimate. Busy times for them both academically. I always cook, have supper around the table and we talk - about the day's events, current affairs, the food we are eating - anything really. That is quality time for me!

[Eric J (Viking)]

Strangely enough I bumped into this a short while ago!! ... thought I'd share...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEjjX01tG8Q&feature=feedu

What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
I learned that Washington never told a lie.
I learned that soldiers seldom die.
I learned that everybody's free.
And that's what the teacher said to me.
That's what I learned in school today.
That's what I learned in school.

What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
I learned that policemen are my friends.
I learned that justice never ends.
I learned that murderers die for their crimes.
Even if we make a mistake sometimes.
That's what I learned in school today.
That's what I learned in school.

What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
I learned our government must be strong.
It's always right and never wrong.
Our leaders are the finest men.
And we elect them again and again.
That's what I learned in school today.
That's what I learned in school.

What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
I learned that war is not so bad.
I learned of the great ones we have had.
We fought in Iraq and in Afghanistan.
And some day I might get my chance.
That's what I learned in school today.
That's what I learned in school.

viking

[mahalall]

Joseph Chilton Pearce, Author of Magical Child.
would be very proud of you.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Heartfelt and pertinent letter, Dennis.

Wondering if it will have an effect.

Keep us posted.

[Bryn ap Gwilym]

Dennis Hi.

A great letter that points out some home truths (so to speak). But, from my understanding, teachers hands are tied & they themselves are like robots who take orders from government committees & sub committees/groups.
The letter or even a campaign needs to be directed at the ones who are controlling the education system, otherwise its just peeing in the wind.

[Mad Hatter]

Mad Hatter dons his incredulous cap...

We also are currently suffering the idiocy of the current system mandates we are compelled to subject on our two daughters!!

One of the things I like to wave under the nose of the pedagog empire when arguing with them about what is and is not possible, is the education of the English philosopher John Stuart Mill circa early 1800's and as described in his autobiography it went something like this...

At the age of three he was taught Greek and before the age of eight he had read Aesop's Fables, Xenophon's Anabasis, the whole of Herodotus, and was acquainted with Lucian, Diogenes Laërtius, Isocrates and six dialogues of Plato. Along with having read a great deal of history in English he had learnt arithmetic as well.

Aged eight he began learning Latin, Euclid, and algebra, along with having to take on the role of teacher for his younger siblings. Still mainly reading history he went through all the commonly taught Latin and Greek authors and by the age of ten could read Plato and Demosthenes with ease.

His father understood the importance of the study poetry, thus one of Mill's earliest compositions was no less than a continuation of the Iliad !!
Spare time was spent reading about natural sciences and popular novels such as Don Quixote and Robinson Crusoe.

Aged twelve he began a thorough study of scholastic logic whilst reading Aristotle's logical treatises in it's original language.

Aged thirteen he was introduced to political economy and studied the classical economic view of factors of production by Adam Smith and David Ricardo.

Aged fourteen while living in France in Montpellier he learnt chemistry, zoology, logic of the Faculté des Sciences, as well as higher mathematics.

From that base he went on to write a fascinating book explaining how society might operate on the basis of generating the greatest happiness for all.

When I look at the fact that that was two hundred years ago and compare the above with the drivel my youngest also aged fourteen is expected to swallow, I cannot help but ask WTF has happened in the interim !?!!! :cool:

cheers

[conk]

Most excellent!

I have told my 17 year old high school senior that I will no longer care if she brings in a bad grade (meaning anything other than a B or an A.). We are all sick of the "make work" and senseless hours of homework every evening. If not completing her homework means a lower grade, then so be it. I know my child is always at her best and is proud of her past accomplishments. She is diligent and hard working, but the excessive BS homework was out of hand.

Also, the idea that there is only one answer to a particular question is absurd. Schools no longer teach a child to think, explore, and create. My girl was always coming up with bizarre answers to questions, and they would be factually correct! Of course the teacher graded it wrong because it didn't fit into her neat little pocket guide mentality.

Good on you Dennis for writing this letter.

[Dennis Leahy]

There was a short documentary-type or exposé-type movie (that was very slow moving, even boring) where a reporter who was given access to minutes of meetings exposed that the major "philanthropists" (Carnegie, Rockefeller, etc.) had as their main agenda the dumbing down of Americans. I'm having trouble locating that (as a reference.) if anyone knows...

Dennis

[Limor Wolf]

~Dennis,this is a wonderfull 'petition' on behalf of parents and children alike,I am certain that your daughter is proud to cal you 'dad'.I hope there are listeners at the other end of the line.

I think you might want to consider sending a copy to all the parents (you never know,you might be joined with some allies) only imagine what a whole class of 'visionary parents' will do to the poor teachers...I almost feel sorry for them!lol ~

[TWINCANS]

Great topic .... but don't get me started. It all began with Magical Child and Magical Child Returns by Joseph Chiltern Pierce, then Montessori and Rudolf Steiner, then Holt ...

Suffice to say our family has opted out of institutionalized childhood and we homeschool. This interesting article agrees with my view that real change will never come by people sending their kids to school. Change and solutions will only happen when more people detach from the industrial-aged anachronism that is schooling, because they see that learning is all around, and that adults don't teach - children learn, and that children are being abused by a left-brain dominant system and that a society is poor indeed that isolates its most precious children, and... (sorry, no more soapbox).

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201108/is-real-educational-reform-possible-if-so-how


And this is about the growing trend to unstructured learning styles, broadly categorized as Unschooling. Here again pioneers are plowing new ground.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/em/74411

[TWINCANS]

I think this bit of levity shows that Creativity and Compulsory Education are no match - at least not Happily Ever After:

What Einstein, Twain, and Forty Eight Other Creative People Had to Say About Schooling
"I was at the foot of my class." -Thomas Edison

Published on July 26, 2011 by Peter Gray in Freedom to Learn

Throughout history, from Plato on, creative people have spoken out against the stultifying effects of compulsory education. Here are quotations from fifty such people, which I have culled partly from my own reading but mostly from various other websites.

Albert Einstein - It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of education have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry; for this delicate plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom; without this it goes to wrack and ruin without fail. It is a very grave mistake to think that the enjoyment of seeing and searching can be promoted by means of coercion and a sense of duty.

One had to cram all this stuff into one's mind, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year.

Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods.

Plato - Knowledge that is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.

Chuang Tzu - Reward and punishment is the lowest form of education.

Mark Twain - I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run.
Education consists mainly in what we have unlearned.
In the first place God made idiots. This was for practice. Then he made school boards.

Oscar Wilde - The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound. Fortunately in England, at any rate, education produces no effect whatsoever. If it did, it would prove a serious danger to the upper classes, and probably lead to acts of violence.
Education is an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught.
Everyone who is incapable of learning has taken to teaching.

Winston Churchill - How I hated schools, and what a life of anxiety I lived there. I counted the hours to the end of every term, when I should return home.
I always like to learn, but I don't always like to be taught.

Woody Allen - I loathed every day and regret every moment I spent in a school.

Dolly Parton - I hated school. Even to this day, when I see a school bus it's just depressing to me. The poor little kids.

George Bernard Shaw - There is nothing on earth intended for innocent people so horrible as a school.
What we call education and culture is for the most part nothing but the substitution of reading for experience, of literature for life, of the obsolete fictitious for the contemporary real.

Finley Peter Dunne - It don't make much difference what you study, so long as you don't like it.

Thomas Edison - I remember that I was never able to get along at school. I was at the foot of the class.

Henry David Thoreau - What does education often do? It makes a straight-cut ditch of a free, meandering brook.
How could youths better learn to live than by at once trying the experiment of living?

Bertrand Russell - Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education.
Education is one of the chief obstacles to intelligence and freedom of thought.

Benjamin Franklin - He was so learned that he could name a horse in nine languages; so ignorant that he bought a cow to ride on.

H. L. Mencken - The average schoolmaster is and always must be essentially an ass, for how can one imagine an intelligent man engaging in so puerile an avocation.

George Saville, Marquis of Hallifax - The vanity of teaching doth oft tempt a man to forget that he is a blockhead.

Joseph Stalin (Hmmm, a supporter of compulsory schooling.) - Education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed.

Norman Douglas - Education is a state-controlled manufactory of echoes.

Paul Karl Feyerabend - The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education.

Theodore Roosevelt - A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car; but if he has a university education, he may steal the whole railroad.

H. H. Munro - But, good gracious, you've got to educate him first. You can't expect a boy to be vicious till he's been to a good school.

Robert Frost - Education is hanging around until you've caught on.

Gilbert K. Chesterton - Education is the period during which you are being instructed by somebody you do not know, about something you do not want to know.

Ralph Waldo Emerson - I pay the schoolmaster, but it is the schoolboys who educate my son.

Alice James - I wonder whether if I had an education I should have been more or less a fool than I am.

Helen Beatrix Potter - Thank goodness I was never sent to school; it would have rubbed off some of the originality.

Margaret Mead - My grandmother wanted me to have an education, so she kept me out of school.

William Hazlitt - Anyone who has passed through the regular gradations of a classical education, and is not made a fool by it, may consider himself as having had a very narrow escape.

Laurence J. Peter - Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices.

Anne Sullivan (I bow to her.) - I am beginning to suspect all elaborate and special systems of education. They seem to me to be built up on the supposition that every child is a kind of idiot who must be taught to think.

Alice Duer Miller - It is among the commonplaces of education that we often first cut off the living root and then try to replace its natural functions by artificial means. Thus we suppress the child's curiosity and then when he lacks a natural interest in learning he is offered special coaching for his scholastic difficulties.

Florence King - Showing up at school already able to read is like showing up at the undertaker's already embalmed: people start worrying about being put out of their jobs.

Emma Goldman - Since every effort in our educational life seems to be directed toward making of the child a being foreign to itself, it must of necessity produce individuals foreign to one another, and in everlasting antagonism with each other.

Edward M. Forster - Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon.

William John Bennett - If [our schools] are still bad maybe we should declare educational bankruptcy, give the people their money and let them educate themselves and start their own schools.

John Updike - School is where you go between when your parents can't take you, and industry can't take you.

Robert Buzzell - The mark of a true MBA is that he is often wrong but seldom in doubt.

Robert M. Hutchins - The three major administrative problems on a campus are sex for the students, athletics for the alumni, and parking for the faculty.
The college graduate is presented with a sheepskin to cover his intellectual nakedness.

Elbert Hubbard - You can lead a boy to college, but you cannot make him think.

Max Leon Forman - Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the customer tries to get as little as he can for his money.

Phillip K. Dick - The trouble with being educated is that it takes a long time; it uses up the better part of your life and when you are finished what you know is that you would have benefited more by going into banking.

David P. Gardner - Much that passes for education is not education at all but ritual. The fact is that we are being educated when we know it least.

Ivan Illich - The public school has become the established church of secular society.
Together we have come to realize that the right to learn is curtailed by the obligation to attend school.

Marshall McLuhan - The school system ... is the homogenizing hopper into which we toss our integral tots for processing.

Michel De Montaigne - We only labor to stuff the memory, and leave the conscience and the understanding unfurnished and void.

Peter Drucker - When a subject becomes totally obsolete we make it a required course.

C. C. Colton - Examinations are formidable even to the best prepared, for the greatest fool may ask more than the wisest man can answer.

Paul Simon - When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school, it's a wonder I can think at all.

John Dewey - It is our American habit, if we find the foundations of our educational structure unsatisfactory, to add another story or a wing.

Anonymous (My favorite of all historical figures.) - If nobody dropped out of eighth grade, who would hire the college graduates?
Public school is a place of detention for children placed in the care of teachers who are afraid of the principal, principals who are afraid of the school board, school boards who are afraid of the parents, parents who are afraid of the children, and children who are afraid of nobody.
The creative person is usually rebellious. He or she is the survivor of a trauma called education.
You can always tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him much.
------
Friends, yes, I know, this is a biased sampling of quotations! I have deliberately selected quotations that complain about the compulsory, standard system of schooling. But, I challenge you. Develop a list this long of quotations supporting compulsory schooling and see if the authors you quote rank close to these authors in creativity.

[mosquito]

I could mount my soapbox here as well ! Here's an experiential anecdote for now :

A number of years back my elder stepdaughter (13 years old) just couldn't get up for school in the morning, in fact during the entire term she'd only managed to attend on 4 days.
Eventually she told her mother that school just wasn't working for her. So we decided to take her out of the system and provide her with whatever education she wanted at home. We were both self-employed at the time, so it was quite easy, and fortunately the establishment didn't put any obstacles in our way.
So for the next 2 years we allowed her to grow up in her own way, which meant getting out of bed anytime after 3 pm, blobbing for a fair amount of time, and doing whatever she wanted.
When she was 15, she decided she wanted to go to art school, so with a bit of persuasion we managed to get her into the local 6th form college, despite being 3 years too young. And here's the best bit - at the end of the year she won the prize for being the best student, and she was roundly praised by the staff for being far more mature than her 18 year old classmates !
Proud of her ? You bet.
Needless to say, she developed into one of the most wonderful women I've ever had the privelege to know.

[TWINCANS]

I could mount my soapbox here as well ! Here's an experiential anecdote for now :

A number of years back my elder stepdaughter (13 years old) just couldn't get up for school in the morning, in fact during the entire term she'd only managed to attend on 4 days.
Eventually she told her mother that school just wasn't working for her. So we decided to take her out of the system and provide her with whatever education she wanted at home. We were both self-employed at the time, so it was quite easy, and fortunately the establishment didn't put any obstacles in our way.
So for the next 2 years we allowed her to grow up in her own way, which meant getting out of bed anytime after 3 pm, blobbing for a fair amount of time, and doing whatever she wanted.
When she was 15, she decided she wanted to go to art school, so with a bit of persuasion we managed to get her into the local 6th form college, despite being 3 years too young. And here's the best bit - at the end of the year she won the prize for being the best student, and she was roundly praised by the staff for being far more mature than her 18 year old classmates !
Proud of her ? You bet.
Needless to say, she developed into one of the most wonderful women I've ever had the privelege to know.

And happy to boot, I'm betting. Who could ask for more?

My dd has just published her first novel on Amazon.com (chest swelling in pride). This year she started high school online and loves it.

Any other 'educational pioneers' out there?

[Flash]

If, after this wonderful letter, you still have any resistance from the teachers or the school management, give them this report:


Several Lessons to Be Learned from the Finnish School System
by Thomas

The Internet has been abuzz since the release of “What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?” by Ellen Gamerman of the Wall Street Journal. In essence, Finland teens are able to deliver the goods on international tests and now American educators have begun researching the Finnish system to see what tidbits they can glean.

According to Gamerman, the differences between Finland and American education are enormous. High-school students rarely get more than a half-hour of homework a night in Finland. Furthermore, children don’t start school until they reach seven. There are no classes for the gifted students and no recognition organizations for those who achieve. There is also little in the way of standardized testing. In other words, Finland educates its children with a model that is virtually the anti-thesis of what we do in America. Yet out of the 57 countries tested, Finland’s 15-year-old students earned some of the highest scores in the world.
Different Schools and Different Kids
However, though school is different, it should be noted that Finnish youth appear to be very similar to their American counterparts in their teenage behaviors. According to Gamerman, they also “waste hours online, love sarcasm and listen to rap and heavy metal.” The difference is that these students are way ahead of their American counterparts in math, science and reading.

At the same time, it must be noted that Finland as a country is nothing like America. It has its own language yet teachers encounter very few students who do not speak the language. In contrast, in America, one of every twelve American students is learning English. When well taught, foreign students that learn English/French at school, their parents not speaking it, are no more at disadvantage over time than native English/French speakers following studies done in Quebec. In other words, bilingualism does not hamper anything in school by itself. My own token here.

The people are far more homogeneous in terms of both income and education. Perhaps more importantly, there are no poor and no wealthy schools, each school educates children at the same per pupil rate. Perhaps that is one reason why the gap between Finland’s highest performing and lowest performing schools was amongst the lowest of all 57 countries tested. After examining the Finnish school system, there are at least three items that could be easily applied to American schools despite the cultural and economic differences. Each of these three also address the differing socioeconomic status in our country, providing a helping hand for those with a desire to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Quality Pre-School for All
Kati Tuurala, Microsoft’s education manager in Finland, believes that a great deal of Finland’s educational success can be attributed to major reforms implemented in the 1970s. Those reforms included an emphasis on primary education for every single child in the country.

“That’s the reason for our present-day success,” Tuurala states.

In all three Scandinavian countries students begin formal schooling only at age seven, two years after most American children begin school. However, prior to entering school, all children have participated in a high-quality government funded preschool program. As opposed to a focus on getting a jump academically, these early-childhood programs focus on self-reflection and social behavior. It is interesting to note that one of the most notable attributes of Finnish children is their level of personal responsibility. The early focus on self-reflection is seen as a key component for developing that level of responsibility towards learning. For more, read the whole text:
http://www.openeducation.net/2008/03/10/several-lessons-to-be-learned-from-the-finnish-school-system/


Of course, if the target is dumming down American, I do not expect American to know about the success of such schools as in Finland, almost completely opposite to American ways of shooling right now.
So I hope this will be a good reading for most of us.

Don't forget, if you have good schools,well funded school with no more than 20 students per class as in Finland and motivated teachers, homeworks are not needed:
According to Gamerman, the differences between Finland and American education are enormous. High-school students rarely get more than a half-hour of homework a night in Finland

Wikipedia completes the description given above at :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland

A BBC report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8601207.stm

[Mike]

bravo Dennis!

ever hear back?

reminds me: in high school i took the S.A.T. (not sure what the equivalent is in other countries, but it's an end of high school test here in the states to determine how "college ready" you are. it's divided up into a mathematics and critical reading section) and i scored pretty darn well despite my mathematical shortcomings.

but when i took the SAT 2, which tests you on facts as opposed to natural intelligence - i.e. what dates you memorized for a History class or what happened in this war or who invented the cotton gin or who wrote what classic etc...i scored miserably. it was almost as if i wasn't even present for those 4 years, and truth be told, i really wasn't - mentally anyway. i just refused to burden my brain with useless data and dates and figures and so forth. i'm the same way now, only i rebel consciously.

education today is just flat. kids need to read (not just the stale classics) and write and act and paint and play music (not just brass instruments either for Christ sakes! Boring for a kid. why not electric guitar or drums or something hip-hop oriented? gotta get kids interested!) i think history will look back and judge this period of time as the artistic equivalent of the medieval ages. it's vacuous and redundant and unoriginal and simply lacking in soul. we need an art renaissance, and i mean that literally. it must start in the schools, with a seismic shift in emphasis, as Dennis said so well, from the facts and figures and data paradigm to a more creative and self-expressive dynamic.

[mosquito]

Thanks Flash - another thing about Finland, according to a Finn I met is this - from the age of 10 ALL their education is in either Swedish, English or German !! Not sure if it's still the case. Imagine that happening in the UK oir USA !

[Orph]

Hah, hah. Reminds me of when I was in school and decided for myself I was only going to do one hours worth of homework a night. If it couldn't get done in one hour, then, oh well. :sleep:

[Dennis Leahy]

I am getting so much from this thread! Thanks to all who have contributed - and since education is a critical element of everyone's life, everyone must have some thoughts about this topic (in some sense.) Even those without kids can look from the perspective of their own education, and the education of all the people they will deal with in their lives (including those who would step into leadership roles and elected office.)

And, if this is too tame or mundane for some Avalonian's taste: This topic also has natural tie-ins to conspiracies (the purposeful dumbing-down), psy-ops and psywars to control our minds, the consequences of the impediments created by standard education on spiritual development, compartmentalization accepted as the norm, lack of critical and creative thinking to apply to humanity-class problems such as "free" energy technology, the movement to suppress uniqueness, experiential methods for acquiring knowledge such as remote viewing and telepathy...

Keep outpouring! I'm loving this!

Dennis

[Lord Sidious]

I failed high school and wasn't allowed to continue on from year 10.
I felt like I was in a straight jacket in the classroom and couldn't get away fast enough.
As for home work, you gotta be jerking my chain?
I never did it.
In fact, I was still being asked about an english assignment in year 10 from year 8!

[Lisab]

Oh how i loathed school! I used to bunk off in the toilets and zone out. Years later and now I call it meditation. To think I always had the techique down and didnt know it! Great thread x

[Orph]

And, if this is too tame or mundane for some Avalonian's taste: This topic also has natural tie-ins to conspiracies (the purposeful dumbing-down), psy-ops and psywars to control our minds, the consequences of the impediments created by standard education on spiritual development, compartmentalization accepted as the norm, lack of critical and creative thinking to apply to humanity-class problems such as "free" energy technology, the movement to suppress uniqueness, experiential methods for acquiring knowledge such as remote viewing and telepathy...


Did you mean tie-ins for us Avalonians to discuss? Shoot, I thought you were giving us a list of new courses that should be offered at school for kids to study. ;)

[grapevine]

Dennis- that was a wonderful letter. I would be very interested to hear its response from the teacher/ school.

[folotheflo]

Dennis- that was a wonderful letter. I would be very interested to hear its response from the teacher/ school.

yeah, i second that. i really want to know what the response is. i bet "they" are pondering this letter hard

[Deborah (ahamkara)]

Your daughter is fortunate to have such an articulate, passionate advocate! I teach 5th grade and have been repremanded by parents, fellow teachers, and my principal for failing to give enough homework! I usually ask my students to practice a new math skill for about 2o minutes Monday through Thursday, and then complete about 10minutes of spelling/vocabulary review - about 1/2 hour total. I also break with district policy by setting aside 30 minutes of silent reading time each day - students choice of material- in class. This is a great way to settle in after lunch. We are losing our way as we force our children into nasty molds of our own fear and confusion. Stay strong and all parents, please continue to pressure schools and teachers for what is best for your child! Namaste

[WhiteFeather]

He who controls education, controls history. This letter should be delivered To The School Chancellors, Globally. Thanks Dennis, Great Job!

[Dennis Leahy]

"The Cutting Edge School For Independent Children"

Check this out: Sudbury Valley School (http://www.sudval.org/)

Watch the video, and check the FAQ (http://www.sudval.com/01_abou_09.html) page too:

[Corncrake]

I recently listened to an interview on Red Ice Radio with Jan Irvin on Trivium Education. It is about going back to an education system based on grammar, logic and rhetoric which together with arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy (the Quadrivium) formed the seven liberal arts. As we have been discussing much education today is sadly lacking in even the basics. Irvin demonstrates how if given the skills you can recognise the linguistic tricks for example politicians use such as non sequiturs and fallacies such as the Appeal to Authority or Appeal to Probability which assumes that because something could happen it will happen. He discusses the appeal to ridicule - a logical fallacy often used when discussing conspiracy theories to appeal to the emotions and make your argument look silly and lose credibility. There is much more. If interested check out the interview http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2011/08/RIR-110818.php or Irvin's website http://www.triviumeducation.com/

[Deborah (ahamkara)]

We confuse information with knowledge and knowledge with wisdom. Students need a strong base platform in reading, reasoning, mathematics and the arts. From there, they can learn, build, grow and create from their own true center. This is NOT what we have in our educational curriculum today. Instead, students are force fed a series of low level reasoning excercises delivered by teachers reading from scripted curriculum. If I had a child, I would either home school or seek out the best private education I could afford. (I am a public school teacher, and a good one - but most teachers are not very competent. You get what you pay for :)

[Ernie Nemeth]

I think this is pertinent here.

When I was 11(?) I decided that because of all the fuss about me not doing homework I would show them just how dedicated a student I was. I did not like the fact they would not teach the things I wanted to know so I decided to do a paper on the planets. It was about ten pages of facts on the planets, the sun and the comets. It had lots of artwork and summaries in my own childish words, translated from encyclopedias, magazines and other books I had read. So, instead of the drivel they wanted me to do, I submitted this paper as my project. My teacher was flabergasted. My parents were called in and I remember there was quite some flak about my refusal to co-operate with the curriculum, etc. I was grounded by my parents, and I got 0 on my report.
Just goes to show you. Individuals capable of critical thinking are not what the schools want to produce.
I once asked my parents if they ever were told my IQ score from tests we were given in certain grades. They said yes, that they knew I was in a high percentile. I asked them why, then, they did not allow me to develop on my own as I was obviously capable. They said they felt it was not in my best interest.
Sheesh, what more can I say?

[Dennis Leahy]

(Comments spurred by Corncrake's comments):
Yes, of my many tabs currently open in my browser, I have had the TriviumEducation site "open" for weeks. I was stunned to realize I had never even heard the words "trivium" and "quadrivium" (and would have probably thought 'trivium' was a tongue-in-cheek pejorative form of "trivia" if you had mentioned it just a few weeks ago.)

I was extra surprised, because the research that I did to write the Education Reform section of The Reset Button document meant talking with at least a dozen school teachers about their ideas of what is wrong and how to fix the education system, and searching online for concepts that were already being discussed under the heading of "education reform", no one mentioned and nowhere did I find reference to trivium education. For a 'classical' education, (kinda the opposite of the Sudbury Valley School method) trivium is the key. We have deliberately been kept deficient in critical thinking by eliminating the trivium method from education.

(There are those that may argue against a method so incredibly loose as the Sudbury Valley method - it's even looser than Montessori - and empowering parents to make educational decisions for their own children may ultimately mean providing both a trivium method format and a Sudbury approach and allowing parents to select or blend both at different times in their children's educational pathway.)

This makes me think that modern teachers suffer the same malady as the vast majority of modern doctors: doctors are completely ignorant about food as medicine, solid foundations in nutritional concepts, understanding herbs, and vibrational (such as sound) and metaphysical modalities of healing - but can tell you the latest and 'greatest' pharmacological concoction to temporarily ward off some symptoms. Medical schools have unchecked collusion with Big Pharma. Modern teachers must be in the same boat. Modern educators must be being spoon-fed the methodology to create clerks and service workers (worker bees) and, (by omission of basic trivium understanding), are taught to suppress the unique and diverse individuals capable of critical thinking.

Dennis

[christian]

Fantastic thread!


Of course, if the target is dumming down American, I do not expect American to know about the success of such schools as in Finland, almost completely opposite to American ways of shooling right now.

Educate the 'educators'!

ezTIYd5UFRY

[Sierra]

"The Cutting Edge School For Independent Children"

Check this out: Sudbury Valley School (http://www.sudval.org/)

Watch the video, and check the FAQ (http://www.sudval.com/01_abou_09.html) page too:

This quote from the FAQ page made me cry:

What we think is most astounding about the kids who go to school here is that they feel they're in control of their lives. All of us are only in limited control of our lives – things can happen to anybody – but the kids who go to school here feel very profoundly that they can influence their lives in any way they want and that they can influence the world. That's a miraculous thing: not to feel that they're being pushed and pulled by the tides, but to feel that they can take charge and do what they want in life. It's never occurred to them that there's any other way.

If we can change the school systems, we can beat the Illuminati, no question. Thank you for this thread Dennis!

Sierra :wave:

[Loveisall21]

Great letter Dennis. Your daughter is very fortunate to have such an aware father.


Your daughter is fortunate to have such an articulate, passionate advocate! I teach 5th grade and have been repremanded by parents, fellow teachers, and my principal for failing to give enough homework! I usually ask my students to practice a new math skill for about 2o minutes Monday through Thursday, and then complete about 10minutes of spelling/vocabulary review - about 1/2 hour total. I also break with district policy by setting aside 30 minutes of silent reading time each day - students choice of material- in class. This is a great way to settle in after lunch. We are losing our way as we force our children into nasty molds of our own fear and confusion. Stay strong and all parents, please continue to pressure schools and teachers for what is best for your child! Namaste

ahmkara, the parents and teachers and principal may not like the way you do the things but you are probably a favorite among the kids. I wish I could have had teachers like you.

I peaced out on school in the 9th grade. Just could'nt take it anymore. I don't regret it.

[RMorgan]

Teachers...Oh God! I had trouble with them, my whole life, mostly on Industrial Design university.

Once I´ve started a movement, called : If they can´t impress you, they can´t tech you.

Most of my teachers at design school were 100% academic, with almost zero real life experience, so after having a lot of trouble with some of them, I asked them to show me their works, but none of them did, because in fact, they had nothing to show.

So I just told them, well, if you can´t impress me, you can´t have my respect, so you can´t teach me. Man, that caused me trouble.

It´s a real pity that we have to trust our (and our children) education to this completely outdated system...

[Flash]

Teachers...Oh God! I had trouble with them, my whole life, mostly on Industrial Design university.

Once I´ve started a movement, called : If they can´t impress you, they can´t tech you.

Most of my teachers at design school were 100% academic, with almost zero real life experience, so after having a lot of trouble with some of them, I asked them to show me their works, but none of them did, because in fact, they had nothing to show.

So I just told them, well, if you can´t impress me, you can´t have my respect, so you can´t teach me. Man, that caused me trouble.

It´s a real pity that we have to trust our (and our children) education to this completely outdated system...

I do understand the basis for your comment, untrained not two feet on earth teachers, and mostly lask of passion for their work will kill any creativity in children or students.

However, part of your comments I do not really find down to earth myself.

When I read them, I immediately tought you must be no older than 32 at the most. Why? Because the new generation think like "prove me you worth something, that you deserve respect, then I will give you respect" while the older generations tought "give me respect first and then I will give it back in return and show you the path I know". Theres is a definite differential generational gap in these respect in my idea.

I think both way of thinking are wrong and lead to lack of respect altogether.

Nobody, absolutely nobody, has to show you what they did to deserve anything from you. This is arrogant imho. And if they did not show anything, too bad for you, they may have had something to show, but you will never know. I would not have shown anything to such demands either. I would have said "prove me YOU deserve me showing you anything that may lead you further in your path, and up to now, your arrogance put you far in learning potentials, you do not seem to have the patience and the respect needed". And yes, sometimes I am that rude, even if I do not like it, it is sometimes needed.

Lots of times, when teaching skills, patience and a thourough regard for an overall path, not easily foreseen at first by the student, is a prerequesite. Patience and open mind is a prerequesite.

How often have I seen young people telling me to show my strenght in a given field while they did not have the basic prerequesite to even understand the fundamental tenets of their futur skills. It is litterally like having a 5 years old telling you to prove that quantum physic theories have a basis.

I would tell something, and as they know much much more, they would argue and discredit what is being shown, to phone me or e-mail me years later: "you were so right, thank you very much, thanks to you, I had this job or I solved this problem this way, keep my mail to show new students when they argue".

I am sometimes teaching almost against their will, because today young are soooooo upset, lack of trust, name it. Thanks often to the schooling system and to the society, including the internet and political system as well.

All this to tell you that look at the teacher as a guide, good or bad depending on each one, and look at yourself as the learner, good or bad as well.

I do love those I work with, which makes a difference, but these new generations are asking for perfection, their way of being perfect, which is different for every single one of them, and then criticize. Astonishing as far as I am concern.

This does not take away the responsibilities of teacher, schools, schoolboards, education ministries, and more of their responsiblities to make of schools somethings challenging and interesting. They have been compliant with the destruction of children's mind, with the participation of TV, internet, name it. However, this does not take away the responsibilities of the student either.

OK, my rant is over.

I am teaching specific skills by the way in corporations (for which I am well paid) (i do what Bill uised to do) and 1 day per week in high school, almost free (my good heart), and I get those weird comments from ignorant students on the "show me you worth it" side. They are like kindergarden to me, they have no cue about all I possess to be transferred. When they are such closed minded, I cannot give even 10% of what I would like to give, because I go against resistance all the time.

[Humble Janitor]

I never liked being saddled with lots of homework in high school and I made a teacher break down and cry because of it.

Of course, she KNEW better but continued to assign a mountain of homework everyday.

[Seikou-Kishi]

That letter was excellent, Dennis, it's good to see you're still on top form :D

[Corncrake]

About 25 years ago I applied to do a post graduate teaching course when the college decided I had a rather idealistic 'ivory tower' view of teaching and decided to send me for a day's work experience at a rather difficult high school. Far from putting me off the different teaching methods I experienced made me all the more keen. One class was rowdy with the children moving around and talking all the time but the teacher - an extrovert from New Zealand who shouted a lot - generated enormous respect and the students were obviously really enjoying their learning experience. Another class was A stream and very orderly and the teacher strict but the pupils again appeared to be engaged and thriving. I was deliberately shown four very different teaching styles all of which seemed to work. Children are all different and require different ways of teaching - some schools are able to provide this others not. I retain information best visually through reading - one of my friends likes to learn aurally. Some people learn best using their hands - some dancers I know use their feet. Incidentally, I never did the course as my mother became very ill and I nursed her instead but I wish I had.

[mosquito]

Homework - didn't do it, with the exception of a Biology project. I always believed and still do believe that homework shouldn't really be necessary, though spending some time practising new skills is obviously part of the learning process.
Spare a thought for children in China : At my school, they start at 7:30 am, and finish at ...... (wait for it) ..... 9:50 pm, Monday to Friday with a 3 hour lunch break. Saturday they work from 7:30 until 6:30, then they have the luxury of a 24 hour break before resuming school at 6:30 pm Sunday. They get 3-5 hours homework per night and a mountain of it during their holidays. I just teach senior grade 1 (equivalent of year 10 in UK) and there are 36 classes of 70 students !!!!!!
I initially felt quite uncomfortable being part of the system, but now I realise I'm not actually part of it, just working in it. My job is basically to get the students interested in learning English, and interested in communicating with me, which I seem to be quite successful at. They know I'm on their side, and I do my best to help them with their confidence in all things.
I also do 1 day a week in a primary school, with 6-7 year olds. There's a little more real teaching involved, and I love it, as Chinese children are truly lovely. It's obviously a bit of a challenge, but once again, I endeavour to make it fun and get them intersted in communicating with me.
But China is a positive holiday compared to Japan, I don't know from first hand experience, but according to a former colleague who spent over 20 years there, children are pressurised from Kindergarten !!
Madness.

[Sierra]

Spare a thought for children in China : At my school, they start at 7:30 am, and finish at ...... (wait for it) ..... 9:50 pm, Monday to Friday with a 3 hour lunch break. Saturday they work from 7:30 until 6:30, then they have the luxury of a 24 hour break before resuming school at 6:30 pm Sunday. They get 3-5 hours homework per night and a mountain of it during their holidays. I just teach senior grade 1 (equivalent of year 10 in UK) and there are 36 classes of 70 students !!!!!!
I initially felt quite uncomfortable being part of the system, but now I realise I'm not actually part of it, just working in it.
Madness.

The teachers must be working those long hours as well ... plus grading homework and test results in the evening?

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

There was a short documentary-type or exposé-type movie (that was very slow moving, even boring) where a reporter who was given access to minutes of meetings exposed that the major "philanthropists" (Carnegie, Rockefeller, etc.) had as their main agenda the dumbing down of Americans. I'm having trouble locating that (as a reference.) if anyone knows...

Dennis

Hi Dennis,
was the video you were thinking about perhaps in this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?17377-What-the-heck-happened-to-the-school-system)?

This was a couple of months back, so even though I remember watching some of videos in that thread, I cannot recollect whether what you mentioned above was in there somewhere.
You know... remember what´s important and let go of the rest of the baggage and all that. ;)


Talking of the school children in Japan, I share with you a moving film that really had me in tears.
"In the award-winning documentary Children Full of Life, a fourth-grade class in a primary school in Kanazawa, northwest of Tokyo, learn lessons about compassion from their homeroom teacher, Toshiro Kanamori. He instructs each to write their true inner feelings in a letter, and read it aloud in front of the class. By sharing their lives, the children begin to realize the importance of caring for their classmates."
Part 1
armP8TfS9Is



May the planet be filled with teachers like Toshiro Kanamori.
♥



Loving the vibrant discussion and sharing of personal stories in here.

[mosquito]

Sierra - Yes, the teachers work horrendous hours here !

[RMorgan]

Teachers...Oh God! I had trouble with them, my whole life, mostly on Industrial Design university.

Once I´ve started a movement, called : If they can´t impress you, they can´t tech you.

Most of my teachers at design school were 100% academic, with almost zero real life experience, so after having a lot of trouble with some of them, I asked them to show me their works, but none of them did, because in fact, they had nothing to show.

So I just told them, well, if you can´t impress me, you can´t have my respect, so you can´t teach me. Man, that caused me trouble.

It´s a real pity that we have to trust our (and our children) education to this completely outdated system...

I do understand the basis for your comment, untrained not two feet on earth teachers, and mostly lask of passion for their work will kill any creativity in children or students.

However, part of your comments I do not really find down to earth myself.

When I read them, I immediately tought you must be no older than 32 at the most. Why? Because the new generation think like "prove me you worth something, that you deserve respect, then I will give you respect" while the older generations tought "give me respect first and then I will give it back in return and show you the path I know". Theres is a definite differential generational gap in these respect in my idea.

I think both way of thinking are wrong and lead to lack of respect altogether.

Nobody, absolutely nobody, has to show you what they did to deserve anything from you. This is arrogant imho. And if they did not show anything, too bad for you, they may have had something to show, but you will never know. I would not have shown anything to such demands either. I would have said "prove me YOU deserve me showing you anything that may lead you further in your path, and up to now, your arrogance put you far in learning potentials, you do not seem to have the patience and the respect needed". And yes, sometimes I am that rude, even if I do not like it, it is sometimes needed.

Lots of times, when teaching skills, patience and a thourough regard for an overall path, not easily foreseen at first by the student, is a prerequesite. Patience and open mind is a prerequesite.

How often have I seen young people telling me to show my strenght in a given field while they did not have the basic prerequesite to even understand the fundamental tenets of their futur skills. It is litterally like having a 5 years old telling you to prove that quantum physic theories have a basis.

I would tell something, and as they know much much more, they would argue and discredit what is being shown, to phone me or e-mail me years later: "you were so right, thank you very much, thanks to you, I had this job or I solved this problem this way, keep my mail to show new students when they argue".

I am sometimes teaching almost against their will, because today young are soooooo upset, lack of trust, name it. Thanks often to the schooling system and to the society, including the internet and political system as well.

All this to tell you that look at the teacher as a guide, good or bad depending on each one, and look at yourself as the learner, good or bad as well.

I do love those I work with, which makes a difference, but these new generations are asking for perfection, their way of being perfect, which is different for every single one of them, and then criticize. Astonishing as far as I am concern.

This does not take away the responsibilities of teacher, schools, schoolboards, education ministries, and more of their responsiblities to make of schools somethings challenging and interesting. They have been compliant with the destruction of children's mind, with the participation of TV, internet, name it. However, this does not take away the responsibilities of the student either.

OK, my rant is over.

I am teaching specific skills by the way in corporations (for which I am well paid) (i do what Bill uised to do) and 1 day per week in high school, almost free (my good heart), and I get those weird comments from ignorant students on the "show me you worth it" side. They are like kindergarden to me, they have no cue about all I possess to be transferred. When they are such closed minded, I cannot give even 10% of what I would like to give, because I go against resistance all the time.

Yes. I agree with you partially and, yes, I´m 28 and I´m immature sometimes indeed.

I agree when you say "Nobody, absolutely nobody, has to show you what they did to deserve anything from you", however, when you´re paying for something, like I did in private education, and it wasn´t cheap, I really think I do have the right to demand a top quality service, that fits or better, overcomes, my standards of quality and expectations.

[Dennis Leahy]

Some good points made in this video (one of the brilliantly illustrated lectures, illustrated/animated by R S Animate)

Note that RSA is "The RSA is the Royal Society for the Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce."

I hope you caught that "...Manufactures and Commerce" part of their focus. It is important to know who is funding, and who is the brains behind any movement - and who they serve. Note that in about 8 seconds (between the 22 to 30 second mark, into the video), you get a sense of what they view as achievement. Even though I see this as flawed thinking (and it is buffered somewhat within the full segment), this is still worth watching for the insights.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U
(RSAnimate : Changing Education Paradigms)

Dennis

[Corncrake]

Another interesting approach from the wonderful 'TED Talks':

'Geoff Mulgan - A Short Intro to the Studio School'

Some kids learn by listening; others learn by doing. Geoff Mulgan gives a short introduction to the Studio School, a new kind of school in the UK where small teams of kids learn by working on projects that are, as Mulgan puts it, "for real."

http://www.ted.com/talks/geoff_mulgan_a_short_intro_to_the_studio_school.html?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2011-09-27&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email

[Corncrake]

Another interesting approach from the wonderful 'TED Talks':

[Dennis Leahy]

'TED Talks': A Short Intro to the Studio School'

Some kids learn by listening; others learn by doing. Geoff Mulgan gives a short introduction to the Studio School, a new kind of school in the UK where small teams of kids learn by working on projects that are, as Mulgan puts it, "for real."

http://www.ted.com/talks/geoff_mulgan_a_short_intro_to_the_studio_school.html?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2011-09-27&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email

Corncrake, thanks for posting that. I feel that it is important to keep up with all pathways into new thinking about education.

This particular way, the "Studio School" concept, strikes me as simply moving vocational education down to the 14-year old ("freshman" in high school or secondary school, we would say in the US) grade level. It is good and bad. Good because it will keep some kids interested in education longer. Good if you want to train kids to become workers (note that the Chamber of Commerce endorses it), but bad if you want to train people to be deep thinkers, free-thinkers, well rounded humans, and especially bad if you want to allow and nurture the innate being to blossom into whatever avenue he or she would become if unbridled and unfettered.

I saw a statistic a while ago that espoused the idea that most jobs that will be available in 20 years have not yet been invented.

As Ian Xel Lungold seems to have gleaned as the real message of the Mayan "calendar" and pyramid architecture, consciousness is speeding up its evolution, and if the previous 20 years is an indicator, then it does make sense that the new fields (or at least the job definitions for supporting those new fields) have not yet been invented. So, just how forward thinking is it to train a kid from age 14 to fulfill a current job description?

But for me, the even bigger picture transcends "jobs" and "roles", and I see immense value in getting the hell out of the way of individual personal growth and learning - not knowing or predicting in advance what each individual may accomplish. And, the accomplishments may have very little or nothing to do with "jobs" or work roles, but may be much more critical for humanity and non-human life on this planet, or even off this planet. So I would offer the strong possibility that we not only do not have a clue what employment opportunities will be available in 20 years, we don't have a clue what non-job related societal functions will emerge in 20 years (and may not emerge if we are not wise enough to nurture the possibilities.)

Dennis

[Corncrake]

Dennis, you are right of course but at least this is a way of working within the system while we change it and keeping some children motivated. Not ideal. I am aware of the learning differences between my 15 year old son's friends at his non selective school. About four years ago the headmaster employed a new English teacher - not the type you would expect at all as he was adorned with tattoos and piercings. My son has always loved reading but some of the boys could not be persuaded to open a book until this highly unconventional and yet motivated teacher arrived and introduced them to science fiction, ghost stories, etc. They are all now clamouring to do English for A Level! Basically what I am saying is that children respond to different stimuli. We all learn in different ways and due to the constraints of the education system just have to make the best of what we have got. An enormous difference can be made by parents discussing current affairs at home. My son and his friends are interested in watching all the Zeitgeist documentaries but my daughter won't go anywhere near them!

[Rainbowbrite]

Hello all! A little late to this thread :) Thank you for sharing part of your letter Dennis - brilliant! I hope you stirred things up a little and provoked some thought. I've really enjoyed reading everyone's responses and incites - thank you! This might be off topic - feel free to delete - i just felt compelled to share.

I have two children currently in the UK's education system - my eldest (18) is in 6th form college currently and my youngest is 10 and in primary school. Myself and my children have had many similar 'run ins' with the educational establishment and have had experiences like those shared here - some of which have actually greatly helped to 'lift the veil' from over my eyes over the years.

My first experience of this would be when my daughter was in her first week at school, she has always been very creative and was great at art: shading, showing shadows and drawing what she saw. But at the age of 3 and a bit, after her first week, her drawing style changed dramatically - instead of drawing what she could see, she was drawing what she thought it should look like. So, instead of our house or the house she was imagining, she would draw a 'textbook' house as she had been shown to do at school - with no shading or any of the other creative techniques that she had developed herself. This led to an awful lot of conversations with teachers and also an awful lot of thought was provoked in me! I was informed by her teacher that there was a need for conformity when educating children, to enable accurate scoring... (???!) I informed her that education MUST cater for the individual, to assist with personal growth and development - or what's the point? To cut a very long story short, she moved schools in the end...

As a result of the many school 'confrontations' that occurred, I came to all the obvious conclusions about the educational system here, which in turn led to a lot of reading and research, which lead to a lot of realisations about, well, everything really lol! Primarily though - this experience (amongst many others) helped to really solidify my thoughts as to how i would raise my daughter (and subsequently my son) and how to effectively parent through the current state of affairs. So, perhaps, the dodgy teacher and school was actually the best education, as a family, we needed at the time!!! Makes me laugh :)

Back on topic though - i fully agree that we as parents need to ensure that it is us that are raising our children. And it is only us that can ensure that that is the case.

Brightest Blessings to all - Rain

[Tarka the Duck]

Hello Rainbow
I know what you are saying here...but if we have a mass education system, don't you think there does unfortunately have to be a lot of conformity? I don't see how it could function otherwise. I feel that the only way to avoid that is to home school. I am talking as a teacher here, and so I take the role of devil's advocate ;)!

Did you consider that your daughter's drawing style changed as a result of her having been exposed to the drawings of other children in a more structured environment? I doubt that any foundation stage teacher would have the time - or inclination - to sit down with an individual child and tell them how to draw a house in a specific way!
And as for the scoring...even now, in the ridiculously prescriptive Early Learning goals - there is no mention of drawing as such. It is included in Creative Development, and by the time a child leaves the foundation stage (4/5 years of age) they are expected to " Explore colour, texture, shape, form and space in two and three dimensions."

I assume your daughter is still wonderfully creative?
True creativity can't be stifled...it is an inherent part of the person, and will come out, whatever happens!

Kathie

PS I sometimes feel there is an "us and them" mentality when people talk about teachers - we are not (in my experience anyway!!) part of the PTB. We care sincerely about what we do and the children we have in our care -- but our hands are firmly tied and we are under great pressure to "perform" and meet "targets".
Unfortunately, those of us who lean more towards the creative and experiential feel we have to leave the system as soon as we can...
As we know, there is a tendency for left brain education - but the right brain WILL NOT BE IGNORED!! And they can't do anything about that!!

[Dennis Leahy]

... I sometimes feel there is an "us and them" mentality when people talk about teachers - we are not (in my experience anyway!!) part of the PTB. We care sincerely about what we do and the children we have in our care -- but our hands are firmly tied and we are under great pressure to "perform" and meet "targets". ...

It is not an indictment, per se, but a recognition. Just as doctors that do not question the authority that oversees them (in the US , it's the AMA) and do not investigate the corporate interests that massively influence them (Big Pharma and insurance lobbyists, in the case of medicine), teachers that merely go along with the flow, with mouths firmly closed because they feel their hands are tied, are a part of the problem. Teachers who don't know any better (do not think outside the box, do not investigate the boundaries of the education paradigm) are definately part of the problem, but teachers who do know better and who have investigated - and yet remain silent - are fully complicit. Even though we love and respect teachers (and I do), we must not give awake and aware teachers a pass for feeling impotent, just as we must not give any other awake and aware member of society a pass who feels impotent.

Dennis

[Carmen]

Haven't read all the posts here Dennis, but I want to encourage readers to google Sir Ken Robinsons name. He is an educationalist and 'man' what a switched on, inspirational speaker/teacher he is. Sorry haven't supplied any links. I found him on an education thread here on Avalon, also TED.

To my mind, education in the world today, is for the most part, a load of crap. A deliberate load of crap, designed to produce standardized minions with no idea how to think for themselves. What education does with bright young minds is criminal!

[Tarka the Duck]

... I sometimes feel there is an "us and them" mentality when people talk about teachers - we are not (in my experience anyway!!) part of the PTB. We care sincerely about what we do and the children we have in our care -- but our hands are firmly tied and we are under great pressure to "perform" and meet "targets". ...

It is not an indictment, per se, but a recognition. Just as doctors that do not question the authority that oversees them (in the US , it's the AMA) and do not investigate the corporate interests that massively influence them (Big Pharma and insurance lobbyists, in the case of medicine), teachers that merely go along with the flow, with mouths firmly closed because they feel their hands are tied, are a part of the problem. Teachers who don't know any better (do not think outside the box, do not investigate the boundaries of the education paradigm) are definately part of the problem, but teachers who do know better and who have investigated - and yet remain silent - are fully complicit. Even though we love and respect teachers (and I do), we must not give awake and aware teachers a pass for feeling impotent, just as we must not give any other awake and aware member of society a pass who feels impotent.

Dennis

What, on a practical level, would you suggest that these investigative, awake and aware teachers do? You seem to feel that the responsibility lies with them...

[Dennis Leahy]

Well, it's been 8 years, and my daughter is now in college - still dealing with the same institutionalized education paradigm, just a new venue. The carrot dangling from the end of the stick changed from gold stars to a "degree", an expensive piece of paper with much less power than advertised.

Thought I'd bring this old thread forward, to give more people a chance to relate their stories and opinions.

[Constance]

John Taylor Gatto - A former school teacher

A brilliant brilliant soul. Incredibly inspiring!

John has also written a book called Dumbing us down - The hidden curriculum of compulsory schooling


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Weapons of Mass Instruction - John Taylor Gatto - GREAT! - 2004 - AERO Conference

[Patient]

Great topic .... but don't get me started. It all began with Magical Child and Magical Child Returns by Joseph Chiltern Pierce, then Montessori and Rudolf Steiner, then Holt ...

Suffice to say our family has opted out of institutionalized childhood and we homeschool. This interesting article agrees with my view that real change will never come by people sending their kids to school. Change and solutions will only happen when more people detach from the industrial-aged anachronism that is schooling, because they see that learning is all around, and that adults don't teach - children learn, and that children are being abused by a left-brain dominant system and that a society is poor indeed that isolates its most precious children, and... (sorry, no more soapbox).

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201108/is-real-educational-reform-possible-if-so-how


And this is about the growing trend to unstructured learning styles, broadly categorized as Unschooling. Here again pioneers are plowing new ground.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/em/74411

The school system has been the root of many of my problems that I have had to face.

With 2 children harmed by vaccines and then they were not properly supported by the school system - I had a fight on my hands from the very beginning. Moved locations and then gave another school district an opportunity only to have them attack us with CAS because my autistic child had messy hair - didn't matter to them that he rubs his head when he is stressed from people attempting to make him communicate.

School systems so messed up.

[Constance]

Great topic .... but don't get me started. It all began with Magical Child and Magical Child Returns by Joseph Chiltern Pierce, then Montessori and Rudolf Steiner, then Holt ...

Suffice to say our family has opted out of institutionalized childhood and we homeschool. This interesting article agrees with my view that real change will never come by people sending their kids to school. Change and solutions will only happen when more people detach from the industrial-aged anachronism that is schooling, because they see that learning is all around, and that adults don't teach - children learn, and that children are being abused by a left-brain dominant system and that a society is poor indeed that isolates its most precious children, and... (sorry, no more soapbox).

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201108/is-real-educational-reform-possible-if-so-how


And this is about the growing trend to unstructured learning styles, broadly categorized as Unschooling. Here again pioneers are plowing new ground.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/em/74411

The school system has been the root of many of my problems that I have had to face.

With 2 children harmed by vaccines and then they were not properly supported by the school system - I had a fight on my hands from the very beginning. Moved locations and then gave another school district an opportunity only to have them attack us with CAS because my autistic child had messy hair - didn't matter to them that he rubs his head when he is stressed from people attempting to make him communicate.

School systems so messed up.

I'm so so sorry to hear this Patient :bearhug: :bearhug:

[Valerie Villars]

Patient, I can relate. When my son was nine, I was working three jobs and back to college for nursing. I was a divorced Mom.

I lost a fiance' by accident, suddenly. I went to California for a week to regroup after the death, with my son staying with my Mom.

In spite of how busy I was, we still did Indian Guides together, and he did baseball, basketball, etc.

My son had a will of iron and would refuse to wear a coat when it was cold and would repeatedly go outside with socks and no shoes on, so no matter how much I bleached and washed his socks, they would be stained. The child had a nice home, nice clothes, plenty to eat and a good extended family.

When I got home my mother told me the school had called and said unless I resigned from college, they were going to call Child Protective Services on me.

So there went a way for me to effectively make our lives better, by being a nurse.

I don't trust the system for a second.

[Hym]

Dennis's intro post on this thread will always be relevant and useful when we make those choices about who we entrust our children to. Thanks Dennis.

In some instances we cannot compromise with others who teach a very dishonest curriculum to our children. As much as we recognize the need for socialization, it is at times not worth the price the child pays when being taught by the ignorant and those who have no deep respect for the power of questioning or the value of invention.

I, too, see no easily found solutions to the indoctrination into ignorance suffered by many school aged children. Charlotte Iserbyt's book "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America" is a good place to start when we make choices as parents on what systems serve the nurturing of our children. From there we look for solutions and get on with the joys inherent in the challenges ahead.

I've always taken the responsibility for my son's education on myself and it was difficult for the 10 years I had to work-school with him. To this day I still take him to math tutoring for the dyslexically gifted. It's worthy to note that even with these problems, he is insightful, brilliant, mentally gifted, intense, kind and caring. Like all of the dyslexic, though "dyslexia" is not really a good description of the variances in this condition, the common gift is the ability, when nurtured, of the plasticity of the brain to adapt the thought process into invention and great, insightful creativity.


While doing so much to give him a real world, balanced and honest base to see the world as it really is, the isolation of being a single, sole custodial parent, since he was 5, created some gaps in his growth. Because there was not one school, nor any close social structure willing to take on his dyslexia we had to do what we could on our own. When the local Waldorf school failed to offer help during his first year there, I was surprised to find out that the local Montessori school would not take dyslexic kids who had attended Waldorf.

With no help from his estranged mother I was unable to take on anything but small jobs as a contractor, necessitating I take him along on every small job I could find. I look back and see I could have dug much deeper than all of the constant searching I did to find more balanced social solutions, looking further to find competent educational and social solutions in this area to get him the help he needed, also freeing me up to take on the larger works needed to insure our future choices. I do see that the area we lived in had few options available, for a variety of reasons.

Also, I was too heavy on him during the years it took to comprehend his severe dyslexia, a fact finally realized fully when his mother, leaving our area, revealed her meth use during pregnancy. Before he was in the picture, I had such a strong sense of something being so wrong with her that I planned a trip to the place of our wedding to tell her we were going to be divorced. When we arrived and I was planning to be as kind as I could be telling her, we found out she was pregnant.

I said nothing and I stayed for him, never to leave. I should have talked with her about my suspicions, but how would that have made her feel during her pregnancy? She died 3 years after leaving the area, a result of alcoholism and the deep depression it grew in her living without the love of her estranged son.

If you know of anyone who has used meth during pregnancy and they have had children it is important for the other parent, the caretakers and even the child themselves, in some cases, to know what they are up against. It is the worst deception in service for the child to hide the cause of the problem.

Dyslexia is the most common condition amongst the children of meth using mothers. Problems faced can turn into blessings, but those things hidden can only make life worse, taking years to understand, with many unnecessary mistakes made, like mine. Those mistakes weren't caused by the educational systems I had to work so hard to avoid, but an honest and open, creative and nurturing school would have made our lives and his future much better... ...... .........I just didn't find it, or call out loudly enough to create it.

Choose wisely from an open heart and, even in the midst of knowing as much as we do, allow the openness of humility to provide solutions. My prayers are with you as much as my mistakes are with me, waiting to offer advice to those in the same situations.