"Occupy Wall Street" is Underway!

[MorningSong]

Protesters Prepare To "Occupy" Wall Street

Thousands of protesters plan to take over Wall Street today.

Adbusters and the hacking group known as Anonymous are among the organizers of the protest in Manhattan's Financial District.

Participants are being asked to set up tents, kitchens and peaceful barricades with the intention of staying there for months.

The goal, they say, is to “end the influence money has over our representatives in Washington.”

The mayor and police officials say the NYPD is planning accordingly.

"If they want to protest, we'll be happy to make sure they have locations to do it and as long as they do it where other people's rights are respected, this is the place where people can speak their mind and that's what makes New York New York,” said Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

Protests are also planned for financial districts in Madrid, Milan, London and Paris.

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/147351/protesters-prepare-to--occupy--wall-street

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg740/scaled.php?tn=0&server=740&filename=9jzlu.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

http://www.breakingnews.com/topic/occupy-wall-street-protest?q=occupy-wall-street-protest

https://occupywallst.org/media/img/OccupyWallStflyer.jpghttp://

https://occupywallst.org/

[firstlook]

staying there for months? Better chain themselves down.

[steveofengland]

If I didn't have work i would join the protest, oh the irony of that statement! I despise being trapped in the system.

[MorningSong]

Hundreds of protesters descend to 'Occupy Wall Street'
By Julianne Pepitone @CNNMoneyTech September 17, 2011: 4:42 PM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Hundreds of demonstrators took to the streets of Manhattan's financial district on Saturday in a largely peaceful protest aimed at drawing attention to the role powerful financial interests played in wreaking havoc on America's economy.

Modeled on the "Arab Spring" uprisings that swept through Egypt, Tunisia, Syria and other countries this year, Occupy Wall Street is a "leaderless resistance movement" orchestrated through Twitter, Facebook and other social media tools. The Twitter hashtag #OccupyWallStreet lit up Saturday with coordination messages and solidarity tweets.

Activist magazine Adbusters spearheaded the event, putting the call out two months ago for participants in a Sept. 17 demonstration in lower Manhattan. Protestors arranged to meet and discuss their goals at the iconic Wall Street Bull statue at noon, as well as at a "people's assembly" at One Chase Manhattan Plaza at 3 p.m.

"The NYPD is aware of various protests and we have planned accordingly," Deputy Commissioner Paul Browne told CNN late Friday.

Early Saturday morning, police barricaded off Wall Street, erecting barriers around the bull statute that protestors had planned to make their rallying point. Protestors instead took to the surrounding streets, blocking traffic. By 2 p.m., nearly two dozen uniformed police officers surrounded the bull, while others worked to disperse the crowd.

A marching band played as participants held impromptu yoga and tai chi classes in Bowling Green Park. Demonstrators moved their protest to another nearby park as their numbers swelled to around 500.

A call for "justice": Kalle Lasn, the editor-in-chief of Adbusters -- an activist magazine with a editors worldwide circulation of 100,000 readers -- said the editors there are angry that leaders in the financial sector "had not been brought to justice." Their inspiration came when pro-democracy uprisings broke out in Egypt on January 25 and quickly spread to other countries.

"We thought, why isn't there a backlash here?" Lasn told CNNMoney in an interview before the event. "We need to shake up the corporate-driven capitalist system we're in. To do that, we needed something radical."

Last month, cyberactivism group Anonymous released a video in support of the protest.

"It gave us a nice bit of street cred, some mystique. We lefties need a lot of mystique," Lasn said with a laugh.

That mystique is what drew Josh Dworning, a 20-year-old college student, to shell out $300 for a 24-hour train ride from Florida to New York.

"I heard about the protest through StumbleUpon, and I just really agreed that there's widespread discontent with the banks and corporations," Dworning said. "I'm no crazy radical, just a student who believes in something."

Dworning, who brought a tent for camping near Wall Street on Saturday night, said he's "planning on staying as peaceful as possible" -- though he'll be on alert, because "there's always the chance that someone can get a little too angry and throw a brick or something."

That's what scares Dworning's mom, Jeanne Molle, who said she's "a nervous mother watching her son get involved in a large-scale event in the world's largest city."

Lasn is hoping safety won't be an issue. A "Gandhi-like peaceful protest" is the only way the event will work, he says, though he acknowledges that central control is impossible over a group that organizers hope will swell to 20,000. And "there is a question of legality" around setting up tents and barricades, he admitted.

In a September test run of the occupation, nine people were arrested for disorderly conduct, and later released without being charged.

"It takes a lot to rise up and reform the global economic system," Lasn says. "And maybe this time we fail. But if we do, we're just setting the tone for the next revolution."

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/17/technology/occupy_wall_street/

[risveglio]

They are at the wrong building. They should be at the Federal Reserve. The true cause of the problems.

[jjjones]

risveglio, truer words were never spoken! d.c @ fed reserve, right on! namaste, peace & love throughout the universe. :)

[sygh]

LOL, yeah, let's pummel them with yoga!!

[applecrusher1992]

I think Wall Street and the Fed are heavily tied together. Protesting at either one would get the message out to the masses.

[Lost Soul]

They are at the wrong building. They should be at the Federal Reserve. The true cause of the problems.

The NYSE is just down the street from the Federal Reserve. They're close enough and as I recall, they're next door to one another. However, your point is well taken about the Fed. The message should be directed at both.

[enfoldedblue]

A Modest Call to Action on this September 17th

It's happening right now...and apparently going well :)

https://occupywallst.org/

Surely this is being discussed here...and I just can't find it...right?

If so just merge on...or delete

LOVE ALLways, c

[ThePythonicCow]

A Modest Call to Action on this September 17th

It's happening right now...and apparently going well :)

https://occupywallst.org/

Surely this is being discussed here...and I just can't find it...right?

If so just merge on...or delete

LOVE ALLways, c
Merged :)

[Billy]

A bit noisy to hear, but good on them :hug:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvPe2lBVmaA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfwTK0BBrV8&feature=related

[loveandgratitude]

The people awake........so good to see.

[gandra99]

I am with you!!!

[Lost Soul]

I just heard that Bill Ayers may be involved and his intent is to get the proposed Job Bills passed. I hope it's not true as nothing good can come from Ayers or the Job Bills (which is just another stimulus bill clothed in more palatable language).

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

Hi :)

On their web page
https://occupywallst.org/

is a link to donations (food fund for protesters):
https://www.wepay.com/donate/99275
They have collected $13,427.40 already when I write this.
My $25 just flew to them 10 mins ago :)

I pray they do not let themselves be tricked into violence by NYPD.
We discuss it on Avalon here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30881-Occupy-wall-street-protesters-arrests

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

:bump:
Bump!

[risveglio]

They are teaching the communist manifesto at 6pm. There is no way I am supporting this group. Go from one evil to the other.

[MorningSong]

Got a link?

If this is true, things are sure taking a turn I didn't expect!

[risveglio]

Got a link?

If this is true, things are sure taking a turn I didn't expect!

https://occupywallst.org/

Look at the September 21st Agenda. This seems more like the plan Glen Beck used to talk about. I always considered Beck crazy but seems he hit this one out of the park months ago. Systemically destroy America.

[Fred Steeves]

I just heard that Bill Ayers may be involved and his intent is to get the proposed Job Bills passed. I hope it's not true as nothing good can come from Ayers or the Job Bills (which is just another stimulus bill clothed in more palatable language).

I'm glad a couple here have pointed this kind of thing out, but I was prepared to be the lone voice anyway. Many of these people may well be with good intentions, but they are nonetheless doing nothing but serving the system, and we may as well be rooting for the democrats, republicans, unions, or the U.N. to clean things up. This is weasely Michael Moore type stuff, and they will do about as much to reform Wall Street as Bush or Obama have done.

Look deeper to see who's pulling the strings on this, and beyond Ayers, you're likely to see names the likes of Soros pop up. Watch the other hand folks.

Cheers,
Fred

[Arrowwind]

I think America is already systematically destoryed. Are we not just sitting here waiting for the other shoe to drop from bailing out the banks and printing trillions and trillions of dollars;)

If we refuse to play the game then a new game will have to be formed.

Capitolism has run its course. Now a new social order must evolve... perhaps better blending the two ideologies.
we have much to learn from the communist manefesto. It does not need to be taken in its entirity. But we do need to learn
how to share better and end the disparity between the workforce and CEOs and the rich at large. No mans labor is worth millions a year, while others go hungry and undeducated and homeless and in poor health.

[Arrowwind]

I would add that if people do not get out there and shake things up nothing will ever change. It has been shown to us that our vote is worthless... it light of this we must enter a revolution. What other way is there? Let the chips fall where they may. We cannot continue as we have.

[ViralSpiral]

the other thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30881-Occupy-wall-street-protesters-arrests)

[risveglio]

I think America is already systematically destoryed. Are we not just sitting here waiting for the other shoe to drop from bailing out the banks and printing trillions and trillions of dollars;)

If we refuse to play the game then a new game will have to be formed.

Capitolism has run its course. Now a new social order must evolve... perhaps better blending the two ideologies.
we have much to learn from the communist manefesto. It does not need to be taken in its entirity. But we do need to learn
how to share better and end the disparity between the workforce and CEOs and the rich at large. No mans labor is worth millions a year, while others go hungry and undeducated and homeless and in poor health.


We should actually try capitalism before we can say it has run its course. We do not have capitalism in this country. Marx was not a smart man, he never worked a day in his life and he was trying to build his utopia. There is nothing good that can come out of the Communist Manifesto, Communism, or Socialism. The blending of the two ideologies is what we have now and it is obviously not working.

[Fred Steeves]

Capitolism has run its course. Now a new social order must evolve... perhaps better blending the two ideologies.
we have much to learn from the communist manefesto. It does not need to be taken in its entirity. But we do need to learn
how to share better and end the disparity between the workforce and CEOs and the rich at large. No mans labor is worth millions a year, while others go hungry and undeducated and homeless and in poor health.


We should actually try capitalism before we can say it has run its course. We do not have capitalism in this country. Marx was not a smart man, he never worked a day in his life and he was trying to build his utopia. There is nothing good that can come out of the Communist Manifesto, Communism, or Socialism. The blending of the two ideologies is what we have now and it is obviously not working.

Personally, I've had it with ALL the "isms". They've all proven out over time to be miserable failures at best, and IMHO it's high time to set our sights higher, much higher than just tampering around with tired old political ideologies, or combinations of such. But, as this is not the spiritual section I'll restrain myself from climbing on that soap box...LOL:)

I do have to comment though Arrowwind on your looking to a " new social order " to evolve as the answer, that sounds awefully familiar.

Cheers,
Fred

[Lost Soul]

They are teaching the communist manifesto at 6pm. There is no way I am supporting this group. Go from one evil to the other.

Concur. Communism is the establishing of an oligarchy wherein the work of people are enjoyed by very very few. While I detest it, some things happening here in America never happened even in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia or Mao's China. No one shook your junk just so you could board an airplane.

[Arrowwind]

[While I detest it, some things happening here in America never happened even in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia or Mao's China. No one shook your junk just so you could board an airplane.

Shaking your junk as you call it is more related to fascism.
People confuse fascism with socialism.
Much of the issues in failed socialist nations is that it was all implemented with fascist policy.

good socialism is formed by the concent of the people to nourish the people. The patriot act was not born out of the concent of the people. Social security and medicare are prime examples in the USA of fairly good social policy. If they didn't keep raiding social security funds to pay for wars and other crap we would be just fine. Surplus which has been there for years has been drained while it should have been carefully and conservatively invested in our nations industry... there you have it.. a social policy fused with capitolistic venture.
Medicare would do well if medical care was less for profit and more for healing the ills of our people. No doctor deserves a mansion on the hill with two porches in the garage. Pharaceutical companies do not deserve billions in profits for drugs many cannot afford, and on the other hand drugs that also kill many. The capitolist system is killing us.

[risveglio]

[While I detest it, some things happening here in America never happened even in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia or Mao's China. No one shook your junk just so you could board an airplane.

Shaking your junk as you call it is more related to fascism.
People confuse fascism with socialism.
Much of the issues in failed socialist nations is that it was all implemented with fascist policy.

good socialism is formed by the concent of the people to nourish the people. The patriot act was not born out of the concent of the people. Social security and medicare are prime examples in the USA of fairly good social policy. If they didn't keep raiding social security funds to pay for wars and other crap we would be just fine. Surplus which has been there for years has been drained while it should have been carefully and conservatively invested in our nations industry... there you have it.. a social policy fused with capitolistic venture.
Medicare would do well if medical care was less for profit and more for healing the ills of our people. No doctor deserves a mansion on the hill with two porches in the garage. Pharaceutical companies do not deserve billions in profits for drugs many cannot afford, and on the other hand drugs that also kill many. The capitolist system is killing us.

Socialism doesn't work. It can't work and never will work. Socialism, like Fascism relies on force. If you want a fair society, a free society, then bring back classic liberalism. Individual rights where no single person is more important than another. We KNOW Socialism fails, we know socialism leads to oppression, we know that socialism leads to a lazy society. We need to throw the entire concept out because you can not have a socialist society without taking away the freedoms from individuals. Freedom is not easy but it is yours. We need to legalize freedom.

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/why-socialism-failed/

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0393b.asp

http://gopcapitalist.tripod.com/socialistmyth.html

There is no such thing as good socialism.

[panopticon]

They are teaching the communist manifesto at 6pm. There is no way I am supporting this group. Go from one evil to the other.
Concur. Communism is the establishing of an oligarchy wherein the work of people are enjoyed by very very few. While I detest it, some things happening here in America never happened even in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia or Mao's China. No one shook your junk just so you could board an airplane.

G'day Lost Soul,

I am not a Communist however I do understand the basics. Soooo...
Communism is about sharing resources and open access to the means of production.
It developed as a means for workers to gain control of their lives, conditions and work contract during the industrial revolution when everything was controlled by wealthy capitalists and their bankers.
What you are referring, more than likely, are two examples of psuedo-Communism (namely Stalinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism) and Maoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoism)) that focus on Totalitarian control by the State.
The USSR was not a Communist state it was a centralised bureaucracy that purported to be a constitutional socialist state run by the Communist party.
They were as much Communist as the Australia Liberal Party is Liberal!

For more information on the reasons for centralised bureaucratic failure in the former USSR check out part 1 of Adam Curtis' excellent documentary series 'Pandora's Box (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora's_Box_(television_documentary_series))' (downloadable from the internet archive (http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtis_PandorasBox)). It's an excellent watch and might help some understand how the same mistakes are now being repeated in Capitalist centralised bureaucracies.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora's_Box_(television_documentary_series)
http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtis_PandorasBox

[panopticon]

Socialism doesn't work. It can't work and never will work. Socialism, like Fascism relies on force. If you want a fair society, a free society, then bring back classic liberalism. Individual rights where no single person is more important than another. We KNOW Socialism fails, we know socialism leads to oppression, we know that socialism leads to a lazy society. We need to throw the entire concept out because you can not have a socialist society without taking away the freedoms from individuals. Freedom is not easy but it is yours. We need to legalize freedom.

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/why-socialism-failed/

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0393b.asp

http://gopcapitalist.tripod.com/socialistmyth.html

There is no such thing as good socialism.

G'day risveglio,

So if I understand you what you are saying is that the capitalist system is fine it just isn't being done properly?
Sounds alot like the freemanonline article you referenced and the Marxist professors argument as to why socialism is failing (yes I read the material).

Constant growth is the basis of a capitalist system.
Simple isn't it.
Without constant growth the system ceases to function.
We are entering a time of limited resources (or maybe you think food, water, phosphate, base metals etc are never going to reach a point where they can't be accessed fast enough to sustain constant growth) and to repeat the same old mantra's seems somewhat unproductive.

Ideas?

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Arrowwind]

[QUOTE=Lost Soul;315489][I am not a Communist however I do understand the basics. Soooo...
Communism is about sharing resources and open access to the means of production.
It developed as a means for workers to gain control of their lives, conditions and work contract during the industrial revolution when everything was controlled by wealthy capitalists and their bankers.
What you are referring, more than likely, are two examples of psuedo-Communism (namely Stalinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism) and Maoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoism)) that focus on Totalitarian control by the State.
The USSR was not a Communist state it was a centralised bureaucracy that purported to be a constitutional socialist state run by the Communist party.
They were as much Communist as the Australia Liberal Party is Liberal!

]

Thank you. We need to get past knee jerk reactions to words an learn the true meaning and true history.
Again, people confuse socialism with fascism. Post World War 2 propaganda is still lodged in people's brains.

There has never been a time in the USA when freedom reigned. Read "The People's History of The United States" by Howard Zinn, and there is a film abou the book on netflix called "People Speak"

[risveglio]

Socialism doesn't work. It can't work and never will work. Socialism, like Fascism relies on force. If you want a fair society, a free society, then bring back classic liberalism. Individual rights where no single person is more important than another. We KNOW Socialism fails, we know socialism leads to oppression, we know that socialism leads to a lazy society. We need to throw the entire concept out because you can not have a socialist society without taking away the freedoms from individuals. Freedom is not easy but it is yours. We need to legalize freedom.

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/why-socialism-failed/

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0393b.asp

http://gopcapitalist.tripod.com/socialistmyth.html

There is no such thing as good socialism.

G'day risveglio,

So if I understand you what you are saying is that the capitalist system is fine it just isn't being done properly?
Sounds alot like the freemanonline article you referenced and the Marxist professors argument as to why socialism is failing (yes I read the material).

Constant growth is the basis of a capitalist system.
Simple isn't it.
Without constant growth the system ceases to function.
We are entering a time of limited resources (or maybe you think food, water, phosphate, base metals etc are never going to reach a point where they can't be accessed fast enough to sustain constant growth) and to repeat the same old mantra's seems somewhat unproductive.

Ideas?

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Its hard if you think of capitalism in the same distorted way we are taught it. A free market economy, which requires sound money can survive times of stagnation or depression, the differences is that things drop in price (what, no, get real?). Now whether or not we should be in a time of limited resources, at least where it comes to food, water and energy could be argued. What I am pretty sure of is that government is making it worse, not better. The policies that are making it worse, seem socialists to me, at least the way I understand socialism.

[panopticon]

Its hard if you think of capitalism in the same distorted way we are taught it. A free market economy, which requires sound money can survive times of stagnation or depression, the differences is that things drop in price (what, no, get real?). Now whether or not we should be in a time of limited resources, at least where it comes to food, water and energy could be argued. What I am pretty sure of is that government is making it worse, not better. The policies that are making it worse, seem socialists to me, at least the way I understand socialism.

G'day risveglio,

It's 4am here so I'm off in a tick but I don't understand how a free market economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market) can solve anything. As I understand it a free market economy has no government oversight and all control is exerted by the corporations themselves! Just what we need Monsanto governing itself!

This is not going to supply equal access to resources but rather increase the divide.

If you are referring to a return to a base metal backed currency I am in agreeance that if constant growth requirements can be removed and a standard of living can be made equivalent across the social classes then it could be successful. Otherwise it is just a repeating of the tired old Protestant Work Ethic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic) based rhetoric that is used as a means of control.

Australia has been lucky in this latest bust cycle (mostly due to our proximity to Asia and financial position coming into it). During the 80's and late 90's we weren't so lucky. The boom/bust cycle of capitalism has been the same since the 1800's. Now the amounts have become so enormous that it is impossible to understand what is being spoken about in real terms. What you view as socialist may well be long term Australian social policy and we're not a socialist country (no matter what some would have you believe) so just have a look at individual policy items and how they are approached in other countries before jumping on the right wing capitalist band wagon.

I am not a socialist so please don't think I'm defending the system, I was merely pointing out that there are good and bad points in all control systems. It's just the way the controlled views them that makes them different.

As a question, so I can get some reference material, can you clarify your statement:
Now whether or not we should be in a time of limited resources, at least where it comes to food, water and energy could be argued.
Argued by whom? (Oh and I said phosphate and base metals not energy).

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

[risveglio]

Its hard if you think of capitalism in the same distorted way we are taught it. A free market economy, which requires sound money can survive times of stagnation or depression, the differences is that things drop in price (what, no, get real?). Now whether or not we should be in a time of limited resources, at least where it comes to food, water and energy could be argued. What I am pretty sure of is that government is making it worse, not better. The policies that are making it worse, seem socialists to me, at least the way I understand socialism.

G'day risveglio,

It's 4am here so I'm off in a tick but I don't understand how a free market economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market) can solve anything. As I understand it a free market economy has no government oversight and all control is exerted by the corporations themselves! Just what we need Monsanto governing itself!

I am unfortunately at work so I can't give this too much time so I will just start with a simple story that is not far from the truth. Is there not government oversight of Monsanto now? How has that worked out? Do you think if Farmer John knew some of the possible dangers of the GMO seeds and even worse, Round Up, he would have been so free to say yes. Why did Farmer John have the confidence to say yes? Cause it is regulated, someone is looking out for us. Now in a completely unregulated market, which I don't necessarily believe in, Farmer John would have been more careful the skeptic that he is and when he saw Paul's Super Weeds that more and more round up could not stop, he just smiled and added the word Organic to his vegetables.

Now Monsanto is a great example of how the US government is really closer to fascism than socialism but should not be used as an example where government regulations is a good thing.

I'll try to respond later on the boom/bust cycle of capitalism but I think there are far better sources than I on how it was not nearly as bad/volatile when we were closer to a free market society than whatever it is we have now. I used to like the term crony capitalism, now I thing something like "the modern roman imperialist model" might be more a accurate description.

As for the problems with metals and phosphate, I admit ignorance. My quick answer would be that in a free society, there would be more people thinking about the problem and trying to solve it. I do believe that a free society is a harder world in many ways until everyone volunteers there gifts in a way that can ONLY help their neighbor but I have no reason to believe we can force that attitude in any form of government.

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

Dear Fellow Spirits :)

All those isms are worthless if people living in them forget to love each other. No human laws can secure the stability of any state if there is one greedy person at the wheel...

[Fred Steeves]

I'll try to respond later on the boom/bust cycle of capitalism but I think there are far better sources than I on how it was not nearly as bad/volatile when we were closer to a free market society than whatever it is we have now.



This is a nagging question for me, and a smudgy spot in my knowledge of American history, if anyone knows more about this, please do enlighten. As far as I know, the Civil War was a big turning point, speaking strictly about federal control and the economy. I don't know of any boom bust cycles before this, but they surely started after, along with many very unpopular start and stop attempts at implementing a central bank. Coincidence? I think not.

What I do know is that when we finally DID get our wonderful central bank in 1913, the supposed reasoning was that it would put a stop to the boom bust cycle. LOL. That's worked out well huh? So, did the English and German central bankers have enough economic strings to pull in the states even in the latter half of the 19th century to cause these problems, so they could step in with their solution?

Cheers,
Fred

[ThePythonicCow]

So, did the English and German central bankers have enough economic strings to pull in the states even in the latter half of the 19th century to cause these problems, so they could step in with their solution?

It's been a while (year or three) since I focused on that topic ... so I no longer have many names, dates, incidents and details at my fingertips.

But my general recollection is that yes, the Banksters did indeed have enough clout to cause major economic, financial and monetary panics and problems during the 19th century, in order to re-instate their beloved "central bank". Andrew Jackson won such a battle with them, while he as President between 1828 and 1836, successfully *not* renewing the charter of the second "Bank of the United States" (and survived an assassination attempt.) Abraham Lincoln used green backs (government issued currency without bank debt "backing") to fund the Civil War. He did not survive the assassination attempt on his life, when he proposed making greenbacks permanent, at the end of the Civil War. More details at http://www.xat.org/xat/usury.html (amongst many other places.) There were various "panics" during that century in the US, likely caused in part by bankers adding and removing liquidity, in order to move their agenda.

[firstlook]

Since the issues of ism's came up, my take is that the most important issue is consumerism and the ability for people to process information on what is the best sustainable way to consume. The information age has given us the ability to turn consumerism on its head with information on using cycles of life and energy.

Capitalism and forms of "government" will always be formed, at least for a while IMO, its not what structure is in place but peoples ability to identify their role and perfect their participation.

That would be Focus on Consumerism. Its not the particle we should focus on but instead the wave.

[Fred Steeves]

So, did the English and German central bankers have enough economic strings to pull in the states even in the latter half of the 19th century to cause these problems, so they could step in with their solution?

The Banksters did indeed have enough clout to cause major economic, financial and monetary panics and problems during the 19th century, in order to re-instate their beloved "central bank". Andrew Jackson won such a battle with them, while he as President between 1828 and 1836, successfully *not* renewing the charter of the second "Bank of the United States" (and survived an assassination attempt.) Abraham Lincoln used green backs (government issued currency without bank debt "backing") to fund the Civil War. He did not survive the assassination attempt on his life, when he proposed making greenbacks permanent, at the end of the Civil War. More details at http://www.xat.org/xat/usury.html (amongst many other places.) There were various "panics" during that century in the US, likely caused in part by bankers adding and removing liquidity, in order to move their agenda.

Thanks Paul, I'll have to keep hold of that website for referral. Didn't have time to read more than Part 2, but this little tidbit really jumped out at me. Amazing how the more things change, the more they stay the same. I take it this would be "deflation" and not "inflation", but both equally devastating. Me thinks me sees a pattern here, and not one prone to happy endings.

The disaster of the Dark Ages was caused by decreasing money and falling prices... Without money, civilisation could not have had a beginning, and with a diminishing supply, it must languish and unless relieved, finally perish. At the Christian era the metallic money of the Roman Empire amounted to $1,800,million. By the end of the fifteenth century it had shrunk to less than $200,million. History records no other such disastrous transition as that from the Roman Empire to the Dark Ages..."

This leads me full circle right back to our topic at hand, the wall street protesters. All "isms" aside, it just doesn't matter. What DOES matter of course is control, and who has it. Surely the upstanding intellectual patriots who are pulling the strings on this like Bill Ayers, George Soros, and Mr. "workers of the world unite" himself Andy Stern of SEIU would know this "history of money", or atleast their masters would, so why ARE they attempting to disrupt things all across the country, but NOT even batting an eye towards the Federal Reserve locations?

HINT: The slogan - Bottom up, top down, inside out...The bottom rises up (the people), the top comes down (the government) to squash it, and inside out (society)

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Cheers,
Fred

[ThePythonicCow]

Thanks Paul, I'll have to keep hold of that website for referral. That website (http://www.xat.org/xat/usury.html) I linked a couple posts back just happened to be the first one up on a Google search I did, and had a couple useful dates and names to remind me of things I had known before.

I have not read 90% of that site, and have no idea if I'd agree with any of it ;).

[panopticon]

G'day risveglio,

I hope you don't mind but I've split your last response up as it covers many different areas.

In regards to:



I am unfortunately at work so I can't give this too much time so I will just start with a simple story that is not far from the truth. Is there not government oversight of Monsanto now? How has that worked out? Do you think if Farmer John knew some of the possible dangers of the GMO seeds and even worse, Round Up, he would have been so free to say yes. Why did Farmer John have the confidence to say yes? Cause it is regulated, someone is looking out for us. Now in a completely unregulated market, which I don't necessarily believe in, Farmer John would have been more careful the skeptic that he is and when he saw Paul's Super Weeds that more and more round up could not stop, he just smiled and added the word Organic to his vegetables.

Now Monsanto is a great example of how the US government is really closer to fascism than socialism but should not be used as an example where government regulations is a good thing.

I couldn't agree with you more. The dangers of multi-national corporations being given even more freedom keeps me awake at night. A really good documentary on Monsanto's control and manipulation is 'The World According to Monsanto (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-4867493254318912106)'. I've embedded it and will supply the link in the source for those on iPads etc:

-4867493254318912106

Again I agree with most of what you are saying here:


I'll try to respond later on the boom/bust cycle of capitalism but I think there are far better sources than I on how it was not nearly as bad/volatile when we were closer to a free market society than whatever it is we have now. I used to like the term crony capitalism, now I thing something like "the modern roman imperialist model" might be more a accurate description.

Your description of 'the modern roman imperialist model' is excellent and if more people studied the history of The Roman Empire they would see that the corporation 'USA' (and its principalities like Australia) is emulating the Roman Republic and its expansionist "control by proxy" methods. I also agree that there are influences and machinations behind the scenes to increase MCP (money/control/power). I also agree that con-sumer-ism (in Latin con means something like against) is a means of increasing sales in capitalist economies. The constant need for growth is the problem that underlies the capitalist model in my opinion. I'm not advocating a revolution, a tearing down of the present system, nor an alternative model based on previously used "isms". Just pointing out that to say "this will work if we do it this way" ignores the problems inherent in the MCP dynamic.

Finally:

As for the problems with metals and phosphate, I admit ignorance. My quick answer would be that in a free society, there would be more people thinking about the problem and trying to solve it. I do believe that a free society is a harder world in many ways until everyone volunteers there gifts in a way that can ONLY help their neighbor but I have no reason to believe we can force that attitude in any form of government.

Once again I couldn't agree more (however add the caveat that the term "free" is open to interpretation).
My preference is Permaculture (often understood as permanent agriculture but originally also meant permanent culture) but there are heaps of good people who are working on solutions. The Monsanto's of this world like to make people believe that they have the monopoly of solutions and ideas but in truth they have a limited monopoly on monetisation of ideas not on ideas themselves. I am not referring to patents here, merely the ability to be creative and think is not yet totally controlled by the corporations (though they are trying very hard via subtle and not so subtle means) and the free supply and propagation of ideas (via the internet for example) is a way of approaching the limited world view that permeates the middle class mindset.

So risveglio, we are not so far apart in our thoughts me thinks.
I just don't view that the continued use of money, as it presently is understood (have a look at 'The Future of Money: Beyond Greed and Scarcity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_of_Money:_Beyond_Greed_and_Scarcity)' by Bernard Lietaer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lietaer) for some ideas or even 'Permaculture - A Designer's Manual (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/381988.Permaculture)' By Bill Mollison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Mollison) (an introduction to it is here (http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/24/introducing-the-permaculture-designers-manual-chapter-1-introduction-to-permaculture/))), serves any purpose beyond increased social class division leading to increased inequality and MCP control mechanisms.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panoptcion

Sources:
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-4867493254318912106
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/381988.Permaculture
http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/24/introducing-the-permaculture-designers-manual-chapter-1-introduction-to-permaculture/

[onawah]

Keith Olbermann: Why No Coverage?
2011 September 23
by Steve Beckow
http://stevebeckow.com/2011/09/keith-olbermann-why-no-coverage/

Keith Olbermann asks how a protest like Wall Street could receive no coverage. The protest is interpreted as a revolt of the “under-employed and over-educated,” like Tahrir Square in that “people are unhappy with the regime” and as a reflection of “deep unrest and anxiety a lot of people are feeling in this country,” according to Will Bunch. No print articles have appeared in the New York Times, whose offices are nearby. Thanks to Satya.

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And an article on Yahoo allegedly censoring emails about the Wall Street Protest. Thanks to Justin.
Yahoo! Mail Censors E-mails About ‘Occupy Wall Street Protests’

The Healers Journal, Sept. 23, 2011
http://http://www.thehealersjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/adbusters_occupy-wall-street-550x296.jpg
http://www.thehealersjournal.com/2011/09/23/yahoo-mail-censors-e-mails-about-occupy-wall-street-protests/

occupy wall street

On September 16th, 2011, the night before the beginning of the Occupy Wall Street movement Protests, I was trying to send an e-mail out to various contacts about the event. However, after hitting send, I received the following error message:

Your message was not sent
Suspicious activity has been detected on your account. To protect your account and our users, your message has not been sent.
If this error continues, please contact Yahoo! Customer Care for further help.
We apologize for the inconvenience.

I repeatedly tried to resend the e-mail, but never thought twice about the fact that this message may have popped up due to the actual content of the e-mail. After all, we live in a society where freedom of speech is a constitutional right… In my naïveté, I spent about an hour ‘chatting’ with Yahoo! Mail help/support who were totally unhelpful, did not fix the problem, and took over a week to reply back to me regarding my issue. They basically told me there was nothing they could do about it. I tried to send the e-mail again the following day, and was blocked once more, although other e-mails with no mention of the Occupy Wall Street movement were sending fine.

Now, almost a week later, independent and major news outlets (Bloomberg Businessweek & Huffington Post among others– just do a quick google search) are reporting that somehow Yahoo’s spam filters were set to block all e-mails containing any keywords related to the Occupy Wall Street movement.

Yahoo’s official explanation for the ‘interruption of service’ is as follows:

“Unfortunately, the domain ‘occupywallst.org’ was being caught by one of our spam filters when some users tried to send messages containing it. This was a false positive which we corrected on Monday. However, there was a residual delay (up to 24 hours) for users trying to send e-mails with that phrase.”

I don’t know about you, but I don’t buy it for a second.

Yahoo! has a terrible track record with protecting users and is often criticized by international human rights organizations for its co-operation with the Chinese government.

Reader Supported News comments on the recent state-side censorship and the company’s history with China:

“It’s not the first time Yahoo has been accused of political censorship. Yahoo officially partners with the repressive Chinese regime to provide the government with access to emails related to groups viewed as dissidents. An explosive investigation by Der Spiegel found that Yahoo provided Chinese authorities with access to emails from journalists, and the snooping resulted in the same journalists being sent to prison camps.” (http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/68-68/7517-yahoo-admits-to-blocking-wall-street-protest-emails)

More detailed information on Yahoo’s less-then-commendable relationship with the Chinese government can be found here:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/21/news/international/pluggedin_fortune/

It is highly suspect that Yahoo! just happened to censor e-mails on a domestic protests aimed at spreading the Arab Spring spirit across the Atlantic. As governments around the world watched seemingly untouchable political regimes and dictators fall within mere weeks, there was undoubtedly measures and strategies taken by high-level government officials to anticipate and deal with potential domestic uprisings.

The link between social media / e-mail platforms and the success of those uprisings has been well noted in the media and (I guarantee) by your country’s government. It does not take a genius to figure out that some serious collusion is going on here. To be honest, this does not come as much of a surprise. However, I am angered enough to write this article in the hopes of spreading this news as far and wide as possible.

I for one, am not going to let them try and sweep this under the rug. This is a serious, intentional breach of public trust and 1st amendment rights and they should be held accountable for their actions. In light of all the recent scandals going on around the world and especially with news/media outlets (read: Murdoch’s News of the World scandal), it is not a big jump to assume this was and is an intentional conspiracy on the part of Yahoo! to block the spread of information regarding the Occupy Wall Street movement.

In fact, has anyone noticed just how little coverage the Occupy Wall Street movement protests have gotten from mainstream media sources? Well, yes actually. Keith Olbermann did:

[risveglio]

I used to like the term crony capitalism, now I thing something like "the modern roman imperialist model" might be more a accurate description.

Your description of 'the modern roman imperialist model' is excellent and if more people studied the history of The Roman Empire they would see that the corporation 'USA' (and its principalities like Australia) is emulating the Roman Republic and its expansionist "control by proxy" methods. I also agree that there are influences and machinations behind the scenes to increase MCP (money/control/power).

The judge uses the term "crony capitalism" so I guess it is ok since I respect the judge. But panopticon and I like "the modern roman imperialist model" better.

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[Referee]

RT's Coverage...................... MSM Blackout

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[shamanseeker]

Won't be all of them, Risveglio. The elite will do their best to infiltrate to put a spanner in the works and turn people against them!

[shamanseeker]

Not a case of one or the other. Both right and left are there to distract us. They are both organs of the illuminati to control us. We need to exit this bipolarity!