The Oracle - a 400 Year Old Secret

[Eva2]

I thought this was an interesting documentary:

Quote Cloaked in secrecy for over 400 years, the State Oracle of Tibet has been a strange and mystical aspect of the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. This ancient spirit, which has inhabited a succession of thirteen human mediums, advises the Dalai Lama on matters of public and religious policy. To witness the eerie spectacle of a medium entering a trance state and being possessed by the Oracle is to confront profound questions about the very nature of human consciousness.

With permission from the Dalai Lama that had never been granted before, The Oracle explores the ancient practice of consulting spirits. Unquote

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http://youtu.be/zQ1VvvrAILo

[onawah]

I've seen some footage of The Oracle filmed during the time of the actual "possession" and it was fascinating. It certainly looked authentic. I look forward to watching this video.

[Sierra]

That was fascinating Jill, thank you. :)

[onawah]

Very interesting.
This film also provides some needed insight into today's Tibetan Buddhism, which is still fairly scarce.
The footage I saw first some years ago was just a few minutes long, but it was memorable because it showed the spirit possessing the Oracle was so powerful that he could not be subdued, no matter how many monks crowded around him ( I think there were at least 12, maybe more like 20, and they looked like they were holding onto an enraged bull in a rodeo.)
There was definitely some kind of super human power possessing him. It is difficult to imagine how a human body can endure housing that kind of energy even for a short time.
It would probably be a good idea if the Oracles engage in more physical exercise (maybe some mountain climbing!) to make their bodies stronger, not just meditation and religious rituals.
That would probably add some years to their lives, which are usually shorter than normal, and would prevent them from suffering some of the aches and pains common to their calling.

[Eva2]

Sounds risky to me - in that altered state, one seems to be opening up their fields to all kinds of energy getting in.

[Agape]

Kuten-la . Yes and he was one of my masters and close friends back home in Dharamsala . He is very clearvoiant even when not in trance .

I am still recovering from the shock of seeing him on this page ...


Give-me-a-moment :grouphug:

[onawah]

Eva, did he ever talk about what he remembered, if anything, from his trance states?


Kuten-la . Yes and he was one of my masters and close friends back home in Dharamsala . He is very clearvoiant even when not in trance .

I am still recovering from the shock of seeing him on this page ...


Give-me-a-moment :grouphug:

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Sounds risky to me - in that altered state, one seems to be opening up their fields to all kinds of energy getting in.

There are methodical techniques to avoid problems in this area.

[Agape]

Eva, did he ever talk about what he remembered, if anything, from his trance states?


Kuten-la . Yes and he was one of my masters and close friends back home in Dharamsala . He is very clearvoiant even when not in trance .

I am still recovering from the shock of seeing him on this page ...


Give-me-a-moment :grouphug:


Hello Onawah,

no . In the case of Nechung ( the Deity is actually called Pehar ..who is thought to be of Indian origin, one of the powerful Deities subdued by Guru Padmasambhava and oathed to protect Buddhist teachings and all sentient beings , the origin of the name can come to Pekar - Pema Karpo , White Lotus ..also known as 'White Cloud' Deity, considered emanation of Avalokiteshwara, bodhisatva of Compassion ..though there are many alternative explanations to its 'true' origin ..)

the trance is so powerful that the medium won't remember anything , the 'take-over' is total , exhibits super-human strenght while in the trance and at the end falls unconscious and wakes up after several hours .

It's a sacrifice for the community , there has to be 'karmic connection' of making an agreement between you and the deity from the past in order for this to happen and also secret mastership that allows one to take such a responsible role .


Thubten Ngodrup Yeshe Ngawang Dorje ( I'm not sure his name is still a bit longer ) is considered incarnation of one of the old masters , lamas of Nyingma lineage who had exceptional accomplishment in internal and external secret Tantras.


He would have prophetic dreams ..and special spiritual experiences before the trances , considered 'a sign' that the deity is going to approach him and also many unrelated visions , communications with the deity when out of the trance .



I've saved an article where he related some of his experiences ..in very natural way , the weblink is not longer available so I'll try to repost the content of the article here instead ..


:hug:

[Agape]

TO BECOME NECHUNG"S MEDIUM IS NOT ORDINARY DUTY

The following interview with the Nechung Kuten, Venerable Thupten Ngodup (Medium of the State Oracle), took place at Nechung monastery in Dharamsala on August 14, and was jointly done by Lotsawa Tsepak Rinzin and Tsering Tashi

Q: Would you tell us something about your background and childhood?

NK: I was born in Tibet on July 13, 1958 in Phari bordering Bhutan. My parents come from a peasant's family. In 1959, following Chinese occupation of Tibet, my parents having lost their freedom also experienced the same kind of hardship under the Chinese rule. Then in 1966, during the so-called Cultural Revolution, my parents escaped Tibet with me to Bhutan. lam the only child in the family but have a half-brother who is now living in Dharamsala. In Bhutan, we were temporarily resettled in a Tibetan refugee camp.

My father was a descendant of a wellknown Ngagpa (tantric practitioner) family which belonged to the Khon lineage of the Sakya tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. My mother comes from the Nanying district of Gyantse, and later got settled in Phari, where I was born. Unfortunately, both of them have passed away.

My father was a good Chod (Cut-ritual) practitioner, and after our arrival in Bhutan, he always told us about his personal interest to go to India to receive His Holiness the Dalai Lama's blessings and then leave this worldly life to become a hermit. Later, along with other Tibetan refugees, we left Bhutan for India to seek our second asylum in exile and arrived in Dharamsala in early 1969. My family found a home near the Tibetan Children's Village (TCV School). As the previous batches of Tibetan refugees had already reached Dharamsala since 1959, we were like the present-day new arrivals from Tibet. The Tibetan government in exile, therefore, organised a new camp for our group and we worked as road construction labourers to earn our living. The road, above TCV, leading to the Indian village was constructed by us. Our camp leader was Gyagpon Tachoe-la. During the summer we moved to Kulu-Manali and Rohtang to construct roads. I also worked. At that time I was around l0-years-old. Actually, education opportunity was given to all Tibetan refugee children, but TCV accepted only orphans and my parents were reluctant to send me to a far away place. So for two years I worked as a coolie with my parents.

Q: "What about your early education and monastic training?

NK: As a child I had a natural inclination to do anything religious. 1 even told my parents of my desire to become a monk. They too said it would be worthwhile to lead a life to be a monk. So in 1969, after our return to Dharamsala from Kulu, I was initially admitted to Gadong monastery and remained there for a year. At that time, I knew nothing about Nechung monastery which was then temporarily located at Nazara Kothi (1 km below Gangchen Kyishong, the seat of the Tibetan government in exile). Everyday I had to go to Nechung for pujas and study, and return to Gadong the same evening. This is how I spent about a year at Gadong.

But to be frank, deep down in my heart I started feeling closer to Nechung, and my father knowing the trouble of my having to daily walk between Gadong and Nechung, suggested that it would be better for me to join Nechung as there is technically no difference between the two monasteries. So this is how I joined Nechung in 1971.

Since 1971 Nechung admitted more boys and I received all the basic religious training at the monastery. After completion of the basic training at Nechung, a monk could chose either of the two lines Sung-Zang (the chant master's line) or Chod-Zheng Ba (the ritual master's line). Since I had a natural interest in the skills of creative arts and crafts, I joined the second group, and gradually was upgraded to the highest rank. Since 1981, I became Cho-pon (the ritual leader).

Q: How and when were you recognised as the Nechung Kuten or the Medium of the State Oracle?

NK: In 1984, after the passing away of the previous medium Venerable Lobsang Jigme, for about three years there was no medium for the Nechung Oracle. His Holiness the Dalai Lama wrote a prayer for the speedy return of the medium and commissioned Nechung monastery and the Drepung monastery, with whom the oracle has a special relationship, to recite the prayer.

Then on March 31, 1987, corresponding to the second day of the second Tibetan month, Drepung Lhatze (Day of Drepung's Summoning of the Oracle) was requested at Nechung monastery.

In Tibet, Drepung observed this day every month. But in exile, since Drepung is far away in South India, they observed the day by offering an invocation rite in front of Nechung's thanka (scroll painting) at their monastery. But occasionally Drepung would send their representatives to Dharamsala during the annual teaching programme of His Holiness the Dalai Lama at the main Theckchen Choeling temple and performed Drepung Lhatse at Nechung monastery when the previous medium of Nechung was alive.

Thus on March 31, 1987, a number of Lamas, Geshes and monks from Drepung came to Dharamsala to receive teachings from His Holiness and later, sought Nechung's blessings at Nechung monastery, as if, there was a trance going on, although there was no medium of the oracle. I was amongst the attendants holding incense pot in the hall. As the monks started reciting the text of the invocation, at an appropriate point and all of a sudden, I happened to be possessed by the spirit. This was the first time I was seized by the spirit of the Nechung.

This incident of the day was immediately brought to the notice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama by the abbots, officials and representatives of Drepung through the Department of Religion and Culture. After two days I was summoned by His Holiness and 1 went to Him with our Lopon (Vajra Acharya Venerable Thupten Phuntsok). His Holiness asked many questions to us and, particularly to me concerning various signs I had, such as in dreams and others. I reported every single incident from the beginning. His Holiness then asked me to carry out a retreat on Hayagriva Khamsum Zilnon, and accordingly, I fulfilled the commitment.

Q: Briefly tell us about the dreams and other signs you experienced before being recognised as Nechung Kuten or the medium of the State Oracle?

NK: I personally consider that to become a medium is definitely a result of one's past karmic connections and prayers. Also, as a child I used to have very strong feeling of closeness with the Dharma protector, and I had a special faith and devotion in him. After the passing away of the previous medium, I dreamt of the Dharma protector in trance on several occasions. In those dreams, the person in trance was not me. It was somewhat like the previous medium and sometimes, it was even not clearly recognisable.

In 1985, during the Kalachakra (Wheel of Life) initiation in Bodhgaya, I bleeded a lot from my nose and mouth. The blood I swallowed was vomitted out. In between, I lost hope of survival, and started thinking that I have no special fear if I die. I also had a very special emotional experience, though I could not understand what it meant at that time. And as I began experiencing more and more unusual signs, I wondered what these emotional feelings could mean to me. But gradually, I recovered from the illness and, luckily, was able to attend the actual Kalachakra ceremony.

Then one night during the same occasion in Bodhgaya, I dreamt of a long staircase where a lot of monkeys accorded a ceremonial welcome. The monkeys were holding fruits in their hands, and one of them held my hand and lead me through the higher steps. Upon reaching a platform, I saw a big tree which had a hole into which I was lead. It is commonly believed that seeing monkeys in one's dream signifies connection to the Dharma protector. But at that time, I did not have such a thought. Nevertheless, when I had this dream, I really experienced a pleasant feeling, so peaceful and gentle, a very unusual feeling. I also had other significant dreams. These dreams, no doubt, gave me a very pleasant and an ecstatic feeling. I felt full of peace and serenity in my heart.

However, a year later and a week or so before I was actually seized (March 31,1987) by the spirit of the Dharma protector, I felt mentally very disturbed. At that time His Holiness the Dalai Lama was giving teachings on lam-rim (Graded Path) text. I involuntarily felt unpleasant to accompany the other Nechung monks to the temple for the teachings and stayed behind to go last and alone. Also I would leave the temple at the very end of all the fellow-monks. So this disturbed the state of my mind and it lingered in me for a few days and the unpleasant state of feeling started growing more intense as days passed by.


When I knew that in a few days time the Drepung monks were to perform the Drepung Lhatse, I felt so insecure and intense fear gripped me. A day earlier (March 30,1987), before the Drepung Lhatse was to be performed, I had a severe headache but took courage to bear it because His Holiness the Dalai Lama was giving a public teaching on Vipasana (Special Insight) section. It was not the kind of headache I would normally suffer and I felt like walking closer towards His Holiness' presence, near His Holiness' throne. This feeling was so involuntarily overwhelming me. When everyone had a break, I still did not feel like taking a break but knew that I got up and stood in the corridor -almost in a lost thought. That day the emotional currents in me were extremely usual'. I wanted to move towards His Holiness' presence. When friends sitting around me noticed this unusual behaviour, they asked me, "What was the problem." I said, "No, nothing, just a little headache." I sat bending my head down. I simply wanted the teaching session to finish earlier.

As soon as the session was over and His Holiness had left, I went inside the temple and prayed in the presence of Guru Rinpoche and Arya Avalokiteshvara. At that moment I had some doubt in my mind and was thinking if this meant I was going to be the medium of the Dharma protector. Hence, I prayed, "If I was going to be so, this would be a precious opportunity to be able to serve the Buddha Dharma. If it turns to be true, I shall serve the Dharma and Tibet to the best of my ability. May all the obstacles be removed." I was really doubtful at the time and it grew stronger and stronger.

Later I left the main temple behind the rest of the monks. When I reached our monastery, I found that Khamtrul Rinpoche had left a clay stupa for me to fix. The top-knot had fallen apart. So that night I spent quite sometime fixing it to be able to return it to Khamtrul Rinpoche the next day. This done, I felt a bit more comfortable that night.

But the same night in my dream I saw mushrooms everywhere on the lawn around Nechung monastery. It was early in the morning and the monks were about to perform the Drepung Lhatse. I saw myself walling on the roof of the temple from where I could see a rainbow wrapping the temple. I then happen to pluck mush-rooms and collect them in my monastic zan (the maroon shawl worn by monks). This could be an auspicious coincidence connected to the Dharma protector.

Next morning (March 31) when I joined the religious gathering, everyone was busy. I felt extremely Unpleasant, emotionally disturbed and short-tempered. When Vajra Acharya'a Venerable Thupten Phuntsok asked me to prepare a black tea set to be offered to the Dharma protector, I got agitated and replied, "When there is no medium to possess the spirit of the Dharma protector, to whom should we offer black tea?" The Acharya felt it was unnatural of me to respond in such a manner because normally I would never dare to answer him that way. I have always treated my elders with respect. The Acharya, however, told me, "Well, you are right, but let us think that the Dharma protector is in trance and simply imagine we are offering the black-tea, so what." He further advised me to distribute Chag Ne (blessed grains) to the public.

Normally, during Drepung Lhatse, the monks would first perform an ablution ceremony at the corridor of the temple before they entered the temple. So, when they were performing the ablution ceremony, I happened to go nearby and pick up the incense pot, though it was not necessary. I took it inside and left the pot near the Dharma protector's throne. I then turned to move out of the temple through the main door, but found it impossible. I felt as 'if there was some force that was dragging me to stay inside. My legs almost became numb and despite efforts, I felt I could not move. Finally, through the back door, I managed to go out and ran around the temple to join the monks at the corridor. By then the ablution ceremony was already over and the monks had assembled inside the temple for the invocation rite to be led by the Nechung monks.

When the rite began I rushed inside and picked up 'the incense pot. But as soon as I entered with the pot inside the inner chapel of the Dharma protector, I felt a sudden electric current in me. Then instantly my vision went blurred, and my body started trembling wildly. I had no control of my own body. I looked around and saw Vajra Acharya Venerable Thupten Phuntsok. All I could remember was handing over the pot to him. Then, in a flip of a second, I was completely overwhelmed, as if caught in an electric shock. It was so swift that I could not remember anything that must have happened to me.

Q: How was the official ceremony of your recognition as the medium of the State Oracle conducted?

NK: The ceremony took place in the early hours of September 4, 1987, in Nechung monastery's hall. Tibetan government officials and Nechung monks greeted me with traditional scarves and offered the Three-fold Mandala. Then at 9 a.m., I went to receive blessings and advise from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Later, I went to Ling Rinpoche's residence, Serkong Rinpoche's residence and the Theckchen Choeling temple

The abbot of Drepung and representatives of Nechung Dorji Drayang Ling Centre in Hawaii also attended the ceremony. Representatives of other monasteries, Tibetan government officials and the general public were also present to greet me.

As soon as I was seated on the throne, the members of the Kashag (Tibetan Cabinet) greeted me first with scarves. They were followed by representatives from Departments of Central Tibetan Administration, Namgyal monastery, Gadong monastery, Institute of Buddhist Dialectics, and organisations.

Q: What feelings did you have on being recognised as the Nechung Kuten and did this change your life?

NK: To become Nechung's medium is not an ordinary duty. It is a responsibility of national importance. I feel that if it is able to render good service, especially to the Buddha dharma and Tibet, then my personal life is insignificant.

After becoming the medium, I had to automatically resign from the post of the ritual master and, in accordance with our tradition, expected to look after the affairs of the monastery as its Head Lama, even though I am not a very learned person as I ought to be. I also have to study more and meet more people and attend official functions and ceremonies. Many people, including journalists, come to ask all sorts of questions regarding the Dharma protector and the medium.

It is a tradition of Nechung monastery that once you become the medium you automatically become the abbot of the monastery as well. Taking this post is not merely a question of receiving the title, but being able to actually preside and lead the ritual ceremonies, many of which are of wrathful nature connected to the Dharma protector's cycle of ritual traditions. These are of extreme significance.

In the past when we had Nechung Rinpoche, he would lead the ceremonies and the medium did not have to shoulder the responsibilities of leading the ceremonies. As I have been trained as a monk of this Sangha community since my childhood, I do not have much difficulties in joining the pujas and ceremonies. I may be lacking some qualifications by virtue of spiritual realisations, however, whenever I am bound to take the responsibility of leading a ritual ceremony, I sincerely pray from the depth of my heart and express the power of the truth or the ultimate reality.

On the other hand, since I became the medium, to some extend, I have lost my personal freedom of movement. When I want to go for a holiday, I should make sure that it coincides with the absence of His Holiness from the town. Also I seek permission from the Office of His Holiness the Dalai and inform the Tibetan government of where I can be contacted. Then, in terms of my diet, I am required to observe certain dietary discipline. For instance, I am not supposed to eat fish, eggs and pork.

But basically, not much has changed. Although many advise me not to do ordinary work, I still do things that have interested me, and sometimes lead young monks in undertaking mundane tasks, like painting the monastery. I believe in dignity of labour.

Q: Before going into a trance, what levels of change do you experience?

NK: It depends on who requests the trance. Sometimes my inner feelings gets disturbed a day or two before the trance and sometimes, only a few hours before. For instance, if His Holiness or the Kashag (cabinet) commissions the trance to take place, then, it comes a day before and gets stronger as the time for the trance draws closer. The following morning and especially after I have worn the costumes and been seated amidst the call for trance by the monks chanting, the inner feeling becomes so intense that sometimes it is hard to imagine.

Q: Is the Nechung medium while in trance only possessed by Dorje Drak-den?

NK: Normally when the invocation prayer is recited, it concerns the five forms of the Dharma King. But primarily, it is of Dorje Drakden. However, it

is said that, "The manifestation of the Five Kings is not predetermined." Dorje Drakden manifests as the minister of the Dharma Kings. Hence, he is called Shung-Tan Dra-Lha (Principal State Oracle). So I consider and believe that it is usually Dorje Drak-den who comes through the medium.


Q: The prophesies have so far been given in Tibetan. In future, will Nechung also give prophesies in other languages?

NIC: Until now, Nechung has spoken only in Tibetan. As for the future, I have no comments. Our senior monks say that in the past, the prophesies were extremely poetic and difficult to understand. Gradually, the prophesies became more and more clear, and during my predecessor's time, and now, Nechung's prophesies have become even more clearer. But normally, it is spoken in the form of a poem in stanzas and prose style or a mixture of both. The language, however, is certainly not exactly like the common language. It is spoken with a tune, unique to Nechung.

Q: Do you recollect what has been said during a trance?

NK: No, certainly not. Just before the trance, I see and sense what is going around me. But gradually even my senses dissolve and then in a kind of sleep-state I become totally absorbed, and do not correctly remember what has happened and been said. Normally, when I am seated on the throne with my costumes on, I do my meditations while reciting the mantras of Hayagriva. Slowly, I get possessed through a deeper state of absorption, and then gradually feel distant from my own identity and surroundings. It is like having a dream and not remembering it the next morning. The same is the case with me before and after I come out of trance.

Q: How often does the Nechung medium go into a trance, and who can request for it and under what circumstances?

NK: In Tibet the Nechung is summoned to a trance on the tenth day of the first Tibetan month at old Meru monastery, near Tsuglag Khang (Central Cathedral) in Lhasa. This official celebration is presided over by the His Holiness the Dalai Lama and all the government officials. Besides this, a trance is performed occasionally at the request of the Office of His Holiness, the Kashag, the Grand Lama's Estates, and monasteries. In between, a trance is performed for emergency matters.

After coming into exile, though there were trances of Nechung, they were not performed as often as it used to be in Tibet. But later, a schedule was observed. The trance on the 10th day of the first Tibetan month became a regular feature. Then, at times, Nechung monks were invited to Drepung in Mundgod, South India, for a special trance of the Dharma protector. In addition, there is the Summer Trance and the Winter Trance requested by the Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and other institutions.

In the past, except on the 10th of the first Tibetan month and the Drepung Lhatse at Mundgod, Gye-Che (the grand costume) is not worn. Later, on the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, some relaxation was brought. The public could view some of the trance, take photos and interview the medium. However, except for the Kashag, the monastery ensures that other requests for trance are approved by the Office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Q: A news agency recently reported you as the spiritual adviser to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. What is your reaction to this?

NK: This is a misunderstanding on the part of the press. Perhaps, the reporter must have mentioned this to elevate the position of the Oracle or the medium. But unfortunately, he has made a mistake. I personally have not met any pressmen or others who raised this issue to me.

His Holiness does not need spiritual advice from the protector. If so, what about the interim period. From 1984 until I was recognised, there was no medium. However, His Holiness never failed to lead the Tibetan government and its people. Also it must be understood, and I believe, that Nechung acts as a divine colleague in the conduct of His Holiness the Dalai Lama's spiritual and temporal responsibilities, and not as an adviser.

Q: Are you possessed by Nechung only when you are officially requested to perform a trace?

NK: No, not necessarily. There have been occasions, both in the past and present, when the Nechung medium went into a spontaneous trance. For instance, before I was officially recognized as the medium, I was possessed by the Dharma protector at Theckchen Choeling temple on one or two occasions. In the past, during the reign of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, when the then medium went for a bath to the river blank, he was suddenly possessed by the spirit of the oracle.

Q: What levels of prophesies does Nechung make direct or indirect, definitive or interpretative, secret or open?

NK: I think various levels of prophesies are made in accordance with the weightage of the issues involved and the institution and person who requests for it, and so on. The general prophesies are not so uncommon. We all hear and read about them. But some prophesies of the State Oracle are so poetic and indirect that to understand then' would take quite an effort and investigation by wise and experienced people.

Q: Is the Nechung Oracle there to serve only the Tibetan government headed by His Holiness the Dalai Lama or will the Dharma protector be always available and under all circumstances?

NK: Nechung is known as the Principal State Oracle. If you study the origin of the Dharma protector, he had connections with the Indian Religious King, Kunchok Bhang, an emanation of Arya Avalokiteshvara. Later, in Tibet, during the time of King Tri Song Deu-Tsan in the eighth century, Samye was built with assistance from Guru Padmasambhava and Shanta Rak****a.

At that time Guru Rinpoche (Padmasambhava) bound Nechung to oath to become the protector of Tibet's sovereignty and the Dharma. The rule of the Dalai Lama's began in 1642 during the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. This is the beginning of the formal connection between the Dharma protector and the Dalai Lamas. But being a protector of Tibet's sovereignty and Dharma, I think Nechung, to fulfill his commitments, and under all circumstances, will continue to serve Tibet's sovereignty and Dharma.

Q: what advice do you have for the Tibetan people?

NK: 1 would advise the Tibetans to realise that Arya Avalokiteshvara by virtue of his prayers has come in different manifestations to guide the Tibetan people. This is because of our karmic connections and prayers. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has always worked for our benefit and especially, since the Chinese invasion. The awareness of Tibet in the world is now growing. This does not merely come from political forces but from our religion, culture and people. They have appealed to a worldwide audience. We must not forget this, and every Tibetan, including government officials, must work hard and sincerely for our common cause.

His Holiness and the Dharma protector have said that in a few years time, a bright chance lies ahead for the people of Tibet. So this is what we must all concentrate on. Giving and receiving freedom will take only a day, but running a government and a nation is not an easy task. Let us, therefore, all work together. The Dharma protector on a number of occasion has said, "The achievement of Tibet's goal is the joint responsibility of both the people of Tibet and the protectors." So if the people work hard and sincerely, the protectors will always be enthusiastically with us.







You may also like to check this link on Nechung Monastery, it has a temple and a branch in Hawai too ..

http://www.nechung.org/monastery.shtml



:pray:

[Sierra]

The Buddhists I practice with are Bhutanese of the Nyingma school. I don't see them that often, but when they come over from Bhutan, we do practices that affect and are for, the evil deities as much as the good deities. Everyone is invited to the feast and are offered what would be pleasing to their spirit. So we have blood and gore as well as love and light ...

It is amazing how safe I feel during these practices.

Sierra :wave:

[Siberia9]

Interesting video, however you may have noticed the way she spoke of the negative side effects of engaging in these activity's. This shows a lack of understanding of the three kinds of magick, in my opinion. If you are going to pray to dead humans or other entity's, chant, allow possession, carry out rituals etc etc and the rest of it, then you had better at least understand the three kinds of magick. This explanation tends to pissoff the people that engage in religious activity's but thats OK I don't mind. But instead of listening to me, this youtube vid does a fine job of explaining it in a very basic way, and it gives an explanation for the negative side effects she spoke of and I think its worth a watch. http://www.youtube.com/user/joel232001#p/c/4CAB86F6A9E5F238/7/RqrFNXpWUDE

[Agape]

It's a different kind of tradition . Before Buddhism was introduced to Tibet , there was 'Bon' . Bon ( the word means 'mantra' ) was more than shamanism as some people interpret it today .
It was the 'religion' of the Old Kings . Archeological remains point out to civilisation that existed on Tibetan plateau at least 10 000 years ago. The tombs of old Ngari kings , close to the Kailash mountain come from the beginning of modern era. Mere 2000 years ago.
What was before is known only from legends . Similarly like Chinese emperors, kings were thought to be of heavenly descent. They ruled country with great kindness and wisdom by day and went to sleep to their 'palace in clouds' on silver stairacase each night .

I find that notice particularly interesting. Because how people misbehaved ..and spoiled the primordial purity of their kings , they lost most of the magical powers and could go 'back home' to clouds just once a year or so .
And of course when they passed away ..they turned to rainbow in front of peoples eyes and went back to heavens.

There was lots of magic in the old days but the powers faded . There are still but can not compare to the times of old ..




Interesting video, however you may have noticed the way she spoke of the negative side effects of engaging in these activity's. This shows a lack of understanding of the three kinds of magick, in my opinion. If you are going to pray to dead humans or other entity's, chant, allow possession, carry out rituals etc etc and the rest of it, then you had better at least understand the three kinds of magick. This explanation tends to pissoff the people that engage in religious activity's but thats OK I don't mind. But instead of listening to me, this youtube vid does a fine job of explaining it in a very basic way, and it gives an explanation for the negative side effects she spoke of and I think its worth a watch. http://www.youtube.com/user/joel232001#p/c/4CAB86F6A9E5F238/7/RqrFNXpWUDE



But I wanted to say ..and point out something else that may not be a common knowledge ..not many people here were trained in the tradition anyway . Intriguingly I could also relate the point to recent thread about 'Lucidity in life and J Krishnamurti' .

It's very interesting point..from my own personal spiritual experience and practise and please don't jump to early conclusions without exploring it deeper.


Consciousness natural to the 'human realm, so called 'human consciousness' is always subjected to these dense physical forces we experience as gross human body, as elements, dimensions , density, gravity, time , whatever is surrounding you and affecting you is affecting all of us in this realm.

No matter how hard we try to purify our perceptions, insight , clear our minds and bodies which is thought to be the ultimate path to knowledge and enlightenment in almost every spiritual system in the world though the methods differ ..

the fog, the cloud of confusion always remains . The cloud is something that has to be, it's like the primordial soup of chemicals released in the brain, in the body everyday , in quantity greater than needed , providing it with extra immunity, extra energy and nourishment .
It's possible to live on 'essences' but that practice itself it's considered 'final transformation' , for time when you are ready to leave human realm .

Till then we all make use of 'extras' . Child organism produces lots of extra hormones, enzymes, proteins , neurotrasmitters and so forth ..to keep growing. In fact children often need to eat more than adults :)
We build reserves in childhood that are used only much later .


Where am I going with this ...is . Every kind of organism no matter its evolutionary stage , to sustain itself , needs to experience balance .

No one can make out of it what it's not destined to be, biologically taken, in simple words. Even Buddha had to eat, sleep and pass away . He was considered omniscient and people interpreted him as 'perfect being', but ..the perfection he attained was still based on discipline ..and therefore balance .


When you look deep to the trance states and experience the confusion surrounding it, loss of identity ..which can be very beautiful , blissful experience in itself , very difficult to compare to anything else than act of love perhaps ..

stronger the power .. more confusion will precede and follow . If you exercise 'extreme control' , you have to know what 'loss of control' means as well .
That's well known to almost every psychic.

But 'orcale' , mediumship in these traditions are not considered 'act of magic' . It's not about control.

It's about communication with other realms, empathy, mind work. Allowing someone else to take the controls, allowing confusion and pain to happen for short time, voluntarilly ..
to open the way for healing . You would not/should never do this to yourself by force. People who do and think they achieve something are cracks.

The Spirit/Deity is only evoked in these traditions if it's benevolent, though very powerful . In either case, the trance state creates lots of fog, loss of consciousness.


But what comes to the other day when the state/experience is gone...is something still more amazing ..like a sky after huge storm.

There's utter lucidity, clarity , you can see suddenly so far , without any waves or emotions, as if you look through crystal clear air .


So what I'm trying to say is that the trance is also spiritually rewarding. It's a path, very dramatic, demanding path. You have to 'sign yourself to it' if you are chosen .
But it's also fast and beautiful way how to see things ..



Don't do at home :angel:

[transiten]

I must say that just as we develop technically there are more gentle ways of contacting the spirit world. I have a friend who went to Peru and had a very intense ayahuasca experience that involved nausea and scary demonic appearences but also beautiful visions of being connected to All there is, some healing occured also, but the problems came back when she came home.

I think it's a rude form of spirituality and almost like some kind of slavery since the posessed don't live long, just like miners in developing countries.

Just my 2 cents

transiten

[Eva2]

Just want to say I'm finding your posts really interesting Agape - thank you.

[Dawn]

What a juicy thread for me. And just when I was beginning to think that Avalon had nothing for me. In this life I had some training in meditation to awaken the pineal and brother did it work in spades. 3 months from when I began the practice I opened my eyes after a particularly long meditation and all there was ... was light. I thought I had gone blind. It took 9 years for normal sight to return, and it did that very slowly, each day becoming slightly more solid. Meanwhile, I have psychic abilities which allow me to see spirits all over the place. Therefore my life has been much about how to deal with what I see, and in the end how to become neutral to it. In this life I haven't had the benefit of teachers who speak about spirits, my teachers have shown me how to balance the mental and emotional bodies.

So... Agape... thank your for taking the time to write your response above. I did not know the legend of the kings becoming polluted by the people. However, I think most stories meant to make us bad and wrong are designed to dis-empower us. What if part of our journey here is to descend into dense matter so that we can truly know about through our own experience. After all, the planets and the position of the earth has complied to allow us to do this by remaining in a particular energy. Therefore, I always recognize anything which creates a sense of shame or 'less than' in us as dis-empowering and therefore untrue. Of course you will have to check within to see what you get on this. Shame is one way we are kept in line by the ruling authorities... here is the definition of shame... see if the polluted king story didn't stimulate this:

Definitions of shame (n)
negative emotion: a negative emotion that combines feelings of dishonor, unworthiness, and embarrassment
capacity to feel unworthy: the capacity or tendency to feel shame
state of disgrace: a state of disgrace or dishonor

[onawah]

Thanks for your thoughtful comments Agape.

I've looked at what our journeys in these human forms are all about from as many reasonable perspectives as I could find.
The perspective of the "magic and mystery of Tibet" is certainly an interesting one.
This aspect having to do with the Oracles and wrathful deities has always been fascinating to me.

It was so revealing,amusing and cheering to see the Dalai Lama serenely greeting the Oracles simply as old friends, just coming for a visit...:nod::meeting:

But I'm grateful that there are other perspectives too.
I don't think it's necessarily always the wisest choice to just stick to one path and go as far as you can on that one path.
It might also be good sometimes to see from the other perspectives as well.

The perspective of an Amazonian shaman using ayahuasca to contact the spirit world and kingdoms of plants, minerals, etc. is probably a very different one from the Tibetan, since they must necessarily interact with their respective environments in very different ways.
We are all shaped so much by the environment we live in, and with so many different climates and ecosystems on Earth, there is a huge variety of opportunities and perspectives from which we can see what our roles are as human beings on this planet.
The history of each region also has so much to do with how their spiritual paths are shaped over the centuries.
So while there are certainly some absolutes as far as spirituality is concerned, much is also relative to the region and history from which each practice stems.
All have something uniquely wonderful to offer.

When I was younger, I had a great hunger for enlightenment.
I was attracted to Zen because it seemed to offer the quickest route.
In middle age, I became more interested in the many ways in which we can experience enlightenment, and the many paths of wisdom we can take to arrive at it.
I wanted to sample them all.
As I grow older, I am more interested in understanding this illusory personality that I call "myself" and how it came to be, and having compassion for it, rather than trying always to transcend it or annihilate it with some transformative experience or insight, or go "beyond it" etc. by whatever means...
It seems that for me, the path leads back now the opposite way from the direction I took when I was younger!
I want to delve deeper into this human experience, not so much to escape from it.

I have a friend who travels to the Amazon regularly as a tour guide and liaison for people who want to take shaman-guided ayahuasca journeys.
Something I have only read about myself, but it seems there is a lot to be learned from this practice, and it can be very healing, though not always easy.
It seems that just one journey is not enough for most people, as is true with most spiritual practice.
Graham Hancock has some interesting views on it, gained from direct experience.
He said that many people have reported having contact with ETs during their journeys!
That was really fascinating to me.
http://www.grahamhancock.com/gallery/supernatural/
[/YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qgMFO0KU-I0qgMFO0KU-I[/YOUTUBE]



I was told once in a spiritual reading that I would find much healing through the plant kingdom.
Not necessarily by ingesting plants, but by being out in Nature where there are trees, plants, etc.
I have been finding that to be so, and I'm grateful that it's such a relatively easy pursuit, no more complicated than taking a walk in the woods.
But I am still very curious about ayahuasca and how by taking it, people have direct experiences with the spirits of the jungle, the plant kingdom and more.
Though I doubt that I will get to the Amazon... in this lifetime, anyway.

But I am thankful for this window to the world that I have in my computer, :ranger:so that even though I am home most of the time now, I can still see what is going on in various parts of the world and still feel connected.
But now it's time for my walk!
:wave:

[Anno]

[...]It is difficult to imagine how a human body can endure housing that kind of energy even for a short time.[...]

Unless the Human Body was designed with that very purpose in mind?

[Dawn]

Siberia9, thank you for posting this link:

Re: The Oracle - a 400 Year Old Secret

Interesting video, however you may have noticed the way she spoke of the negative side effects of engaging in these activity's. This shows a lack of understanding of the three kinds of magick, in my opinion. If you are going to pray to dead humans or other entity's, chant, allow possession, carry out rituals etc etc and the rest of it, then you had better at least understand the three kinds of magick. This explanation tends to pissoff the people that engage in religious activity's but thats OK I don't mind. But instead of listening to me, this youtube vid does a fine job of explaining it in a very basic way, and it gives an explanation for the negative side effects she spoke of and I think its worth a watch. http://www.youtube.com/user/joel2320.../7/RqrFNXpWUDE



I have really enjoyed listening to Joel on this topic and others. I do not fully agree with him, however it is wonderful to listen to him speak. In my experience, women have a different way of being with power... more 'yin' or receptive. He is more 'yang' and mental in his approach than I have been. I find it really refreshing and I love the mental food in there. It might help me language what I 'know' and 'experience' as a wide open psychic.

There is another thread that just opened in Avalon which is converging with this one, it is worth looking at. The title is something like 'The truth about UFOs and Demons'. I have heard quite a few people say that what is coming on the planet for many people is an awareness of other dimensions and their inhabitants. (which are around all the time, but unseen).

I hope this is so, because I would welcome a few million more humans able to see what I see! I have spent a great deal of time over the past 23 years cleaning up the mess, so to speak. With my knowledge has come responsibility. That is, many of the disembodied beings who are here were brought in through ritual at some point in the past and willingly return to their dimension when they are asked to, and with a little supportive help at times. I have been busily doing this for a long time now.

I have met some benevolent entities, however they seem to be in the general minority. There are many old (1000s of years old) stories about subduing demons and enlisting their support and help, it seems clear that most governments have them as advisers, and/or are infested with them. The ones our government is involved with seem to be 'lower' beings who are not beneficial to anything except power.

One book I can recommend which helped me understand this situation is the Bartimaeus Trilogy. It gave me a much broader perspective of the situation and has allowed me to have compassion when dealing with everyday demons and spirits. It is a fun read.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_6?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=bartemeus+trilogy&sprefix=bartem

[Billy]

Great thread Jill, Thank you. Agape and everyone else, thank you for your input.

EDIT:
Sorry for the double post guys. it took ten minutes for this comment to appear :noidea:

[Billy]

Great thread Jill, Thank you. Agape and everyone else, thank you for your input.

[TargeT]

[...]It is difficult to imagine how a human body can endure housing that kind of energy even for a short time.[...]

Unless the Human Body was designed with that very purpose in mind?

This is my feeling..

we are piloting the perfect vehicle for a spiritual entity,, why else would things be so eger to possess it even for a short time, or gleefully distroy it (in some cases) probably at least partialy out of jealousy

So this film seems to indicate that not all posession is bad, and the tibetans cultivate this interaction... very interesting; this was not my previous understanding.

[Anno]

[...]So this film seems to indicate that not all posession is bad, and the tibetans cultivate this interaction... very interesting; this was not my previous understanding.

Are you not a spirit posessing a body right now? Are you doing bad things with a crucifix and vomiting pea soup?

Good spirits could be posessing people all the time but you'd never hear anything of it. Consider all the times an ordinary person makes the news for being a hero in some kind of emergency but doesn't really remember it. "Like I was watching through my eyes and someone else was in control".

Some people believe that we are constantly surrounded by disincarnate spirits that are either trying to help us or entertaining themselves with us. Like the cartoon image of a little devil on one shoulder and a little angel on the other. Fear opens you up to the 'bad' ones and love opens you up to the 'good' ones. You are still one yourself though so in truth we are all posessed, all of the time, hopefully by ourselves.

[Mark]

[...]It is difficult to imagine how a human body can endure housing that kind of energy even for a short time.[...]

Unless the Human Body was designed with that very purpose in mind?

This is my feeling..

we are piloting the perfect vehicle for a spiritual entity,, why else would things be so eger to possess it even for a short time, or gleefully distroy it (in some cases) probably at least partialy out of jealousy.

I was quite interested to see this video, I watch it all the way through. But what I witnessed in this video is exactly the same type of behavior, trance, movement and even ritualistic practices on the part of the observers, in the African-American church and also in Ifa, the Yoruban, west-African religion based upon worship of the Orishas, a direct descendant of east-African ancient Egyptian practices of the exact same nature.

Ifa is the precursor to the continental-American spiritual practices of Vodun (Voodoo), Santeria and Candomble, all of which ritualize trance possession by deities and spirits, all of which look exactly the same as what we see in this video. My personal opinion of it is that some people are genetically pre-disposed to this for the reasons Anno and TargeT state above. Credo Mutwah, a South African Sangoma, states that all of the African Kings and royalty all across the continent have creation myths that state that they are descended from serpents, just as extensive research undertaken by truthseekers across the world have revealed the European elite to know as well. If these individuals are genetically predisposed to extra-dimensional access, much as these priests and priestesses seem to be, perhaps they all share some genetic similarities that allow them to "move aside" their consciousnesses in order to allow these entities to inhabit their bodies for short periods of time.

These are, obviously, ancient relationships and practices that have been a part of human societies probably since before recorded history.

[TargeT]

[...]So this film seems to indicate that not all posession is bad, and the tibetans cultivate this interaction... very interesting; this was not my previous understanding.

Are you not a spirit posessing a body right now? Are you doing bad things with a crucifix and vomiting pea soup?
Good spirits could be posessing people all the time but you'd never hear anything of it. Consider all the times an ordinary person makes the news for being a hero in some kind of emergency but doesn't really remember it. "Like I was watching through my eyes and someone else was in control".
Some people believe that we are constantly surrounded by disincarnate spirits that are either trying to help us or entertaining themselves with us. Like the cartoon image of a little devil on one shoulder and a little angel on the other. Fear opens you up to the 'bad' ones and love opens you up to the 'good' ones. You are still one yourself though so in truth we are all posessed, all of the time, hopefully by ourselves.
I think we are constantly surrounded by entities, just based on research though, no personal expierences :(

I can think of many interactions where I distinctly felt someone "wasn't them" and its usualy negative,, I supose it would be quite a trick to make it seem that all spirit posession is evil, Hmm, much to think on.. perhaps my trip into the occult will continue..



If these individuals are genetically predisposed to extra-dimensional access, much as these priests and priestesses seem to be, perhaps they all share some genetic similarities that allow them to "move aside" their consciousnesses in order to allow these entities to inhabit their bodies for short periods of time.

These are, obviously, ancient relationships and practices that have been a part of human societies probably since before recorded history.

and this corroborates what Icke and others have been saying, and my own personaly feelings about why women are suppressed... we have purposefully been genetically diluted to ensure that only "the chosen" have this interactive ability and the rest of us don't even know its possible.

The greatest trick lucifer ever pulled was to make us think he's not real... right... or was it not only to make us think he didnt exsist, but anything that did exsist was evil (layed deception, as always...)

now I think I'm ready to read Crowleys book.

[Anno]

[...]I can think of many interactions where I distinctly felt someone "wasn't them" and its usualy negative,, I supose it would be quite a trick to make it seem that all spirit posession is evil, Hmm, much to think on.. perhaps my trip into the occult will continue.. [...]

I don't know about Crowley but you may find this interesting LINK (http://www.spiritwritings.com/kardecspiritstoc.html)

Allan Kardec's "The Spirit's Book". It's just over 1,000 questions asked to the spirits back in the 1800's about life, the universe and everything. It started to take off but was replaced by Official Spiritualism/Occultism. My grandmother was a fan back in France and she used to go on about spirits all the time when I was little.

The interesting thing is, the spirits in the 1800's spoke normally. The book itself was originally in French so it's been translated but still it's in 'normal' language. When RA came along you get all this "I Am Ra thee thine uri gellar thricely". And people started copying it. Now they all seem to speak like that. Most have never even heard of Kardec. Fascinating book.

[TargeT]

[...]I can think of many interactions where I distinctly felt someone "wasn't them" and its usualy negative,, I supose it would be quite a trick to make it seem that all spirit posession is evil, Hmm, much to think on.. perhaps my trip into the occult will continue.. [...]

I don't know about Crowley but you may find this interesting LINK (http://www.spiritwritings.com/kardecspiritstoc.html)

Allan Kardec's "The Spirit's Book". It's just over 1,000 questions asked to the spirits back in the 1800's about life, the universe and everything. It started to take off but was replaced by Official Spiritualism/Occultism. My grandmother was a fan back in France and she used to go on about spirits all the time when I was little.

The interesting thing is, the spirits in the 1800's spoke normally. The book itself was originally in French so it's been translated but still it's in 'normal' language. When RA came along you get all this "I Am Ra thee thine uri gellar thricely". And people started copying it. Now they all seem to speak like that. Most have never even heard of Kardec. Fascinating book.

I try not to ASSuME too much, I could read "I don't know about crowley" many ways..

Just incase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

Now if that was an aprehensive "I don't know about crowley" then I'm in full agreeance with you! BUT I think my "right/wrong" radar is pretty accurate, I can take from that what I feel is right and leave that which feels wrong (I hope..)

I will look into that anno, honestly I have some strange aversion to "channeled material", I see it in the same light as evangelics "speaking in toungues" but I will be the first to admit I don't know why so its probably just a baseless prejudice.

[Anno]

I try not to ASSuME too much, I could read "I don't know about crowley" many ways..

Just incase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

Now if that was an aprehensive "I don't know about crowley" then I'm in full agreeance with you! BUT I think my "right/wrong" radar is pretty accurate, I can take from that what I feel is right and leave that which feels wrong (I hope..)

I will look into that anno, honestly I have some strange aversion to "channeled material", I see it in the same light as evangelics "speaking in toungues" but I will be the first to admit I don't know why so its probably just a baseless prejudice.

It was a I've never finished one of his books, don't know about Crowley.

Kardec like most investigators in the 1800's and early 1900's were very scientific in their approach. It was just a new area of science like psychology was. They're far less woo woo than we are today.

[Eva2]

[...]It is difficult to imagine how a human body can endure housing that kind of energy even for a short time.[...]

Unless the Human Body was designed with that very purpose in mind?

This is my feeling..

we are piloting the perfect vehicle for a spiritual entity,, why else would things be so eger to possess it even for a short time, or gleefully distroy it (in some cases) probably at least partialy out of jealousy.

I was quite interested to see this video, I watch it all the way through. But what I witnessed in this video is exactly the same type of behavior, trance, movement and even ritualistic practices on the part of the observers, in the African-American church and also in Ifa, the Yoruban, west-African religion based upon worship of the Orishas, a direct descendant of east-African ancient Egyptian practices of the exact same nature.

Ifa is the precursor to the continental-American spiritual practices of Vodun (Voodoo), Santeria and Candomble, all of which ritualize trance possession by deities and spirits, all of which look exactly the same as what we see in this video. My personal opinion of it is that some people are genetically pre-disposed to this for the reasons Anno and TargeT state above. Credo Mutwah, a South African Sangoma, states that all of the African Kings and royalty all across the continent have creation myths that state that they are descended from serpents, just as extensive research undertaken by truthseekers across the world have revealed the European elite to know as well. If these individuals are genetically predisposed to extra-dimensional access, much as these priests and priestesses seem to be, perhaps they all share some genetic similarities that allow them to "move aside" their consciousnesses in order to allow these entities to inhabit their bodies for short periods of time.

These are, obviously, ancient relationships and practices that have been a part of human societies probably since before recorded history.

Some years ago in Brazil a friend and I were snuck into a candomble ceremony and we were the only "tourists" there. It was a fascinating experience and the build up of energy as the ceremony progressed was huge. I was riveted by what was going on around me - people screaming, people fainting, people being dragged out, etc. as they were possessed by these deities. It appeared to be reaching a point out of control and our "guide" deemed it unsafe at that time and we were told to leave. I often wonder what could have potentially happened if we had stayed. There would have been a good probability of us becoming possessed as well and this is apparently something that has happened a number of times to visitors in the past. It seems that when we enter these altered states there are often cracks in our fields where these entities can get through and if we are not familiar with methods of sealing and protection, they can enter and really mess us up.

[Anno]

[...]Some years ago in Brazil a friend and I were snuck into a candomble ceremony and we were the only "tourists" there.[...]

Brazil is one of the Spiritist strongholds. I've read stories of people seeing offerings of food for the spirits left in the street and even the homeless and stray dogs won't dare touch them. Some hapless tourist usually does and ends up being poltergeisted by the spirit until they go apologise at one of the rituals you mentioned.

[Agape]

I wish to share more thoughts here ...but it's over to you now :sleep: Don't mind.

[onawah]

I think that is very true. A teacher of mine who was extremely psychic once told us in class about his experiences as a band member.
The band used to play in a lot of bars and as he was the drummer, he was relatively free to observe what was going on in the audience.
He didn't drink or take drugs himself but he practiced meditation and took good care of his health.
Because he had some clairvoyant abilities, he could see auras.
He said that he often observed people who were drunk in these bars would be infiltrated by entities, and it would affect their behavior quite radically. For example, he said he would watch an entity go into one man and the man would immediately become belligerent.
Then the entity would exit the first man, who would immediately calm down, and go into another man, and the second man would immediately become belligerent.
He said if the entities got a firm grip on a person, that person could be stuck with it for a long time, and it could do a lot of damage.
He said those kinds of entities are generally mischievous and really suck energy from their victims.
It is one reason why drinking and taking drugs is so dangerous.
Addictions (also traumas) often result in damaged energy fields that are easily permeable by such entities.

Jill wrote: "It seems that when we enter these altered states there are often cracks in our fields where these entities can get through and if we are not familiar with methods of sealing and protection, they can enter and really mess us up. "

[TargeT]

It is one reason why drinking and taking drugs is so dangerous.
Addictions (also traumas) often result in damaged energy fields that are easily permeable by such entities.

Jill wrote: "It seems that when we enter these altered states there are often cracks in our fields where these entities can get through and if we are not familiar with methods of sealing and protection, they can enter and really mess us up. "


I completely agree.

yet, do not ignore tools at hand, a fire arm when safely operated is a POWERFULL tool and very dangerous when used with out due respect; ifyou get my drift..

[transiten]

It is one reason why drinking and taking drugs is so dangerous.
Addictions (also traumas) often result in damaged energy fields that are easily permeable by such entities.

Jill wrote: "It seems that when we enter these altered states there are often cracks in our fields where these entities can get through and if we are not familiar with methods of sealing and protection, they can enter and really mess us up. "


I completely agree.

yet, do not ignore tools at hand, a fire arm when safely operated is a POWERFULL tool and very dangerous when used with out due respect; ifyou get my drift..

I still think this is a rude form of spirituality. If we don't want to be controlled by the elite or whatever "medium" what's the value of being posessed by an entity and loose you own consciousness? But of course, since i once was brainwashed by a meditation guru with horrible consequences, i'm extremely reluctant to let anyone mess with me.

Also, just because we have the possibility to do this and that doesn't mean we should do it. I thought we came here to learn the difference btw good and evil. But of course, to be able to discern btw the two we have to experience both...so go ahead, I'm out:closed:

transiten

[TargeT]

I was actualy hinting at the use of drugs for extreme alteration of perception and concious... I have nothing to say about posession and by my very nature I think I am too guarded to be effected by it. In fact (and ironically?) I have STRONG opinions about the loss of self-control, and I see possession as the ultimate expression of this... I have what I feel to be a natural aversion to it.

social stigma still has me hesitant when I support topics like this.

[Agape]

In Buddhist and Hindu scriptures , and tantras in particular that were originally purely lineage teachings passed from individual master to individual disciple ( much has changed over the centuries ..) meditative trance of any sort ..there are hundreds of them ..was understood as a method of attaining 'union' with the deity , extra-dimensional entity , beings otherwise invisible to human eyes .

So the state is not understood as much as unwilling posession but a means of communication, union of two differently calibrated living frequencies .

There's a lots of misunderstanding attached to it even among people who actually follow some of these traditions, in either of the old cultures . 'A wreathful deity ' exhibiting unusual strenght is for one .

I've studied some of these deities personally and quite in depth and what I found through my meditation practice is finally the same what lies hidden on the bottom of the teachings.
The surface view can be misguiding ..

I doubt that even some Tibetan lamas know what they speak about ..and if they do, they don't tell ..because the way it looks is 'made for public' .
The public show has its own life ..its own legend , meant to satisfy simple folks needs , fears and hopes . It's been so for millenia and I don't think it 's easy to change overnight .


To the point .. There's traditional description of the 'deities' ( Bodhisatvas , in another words 'wisdom beings' ) , iconic description of how they look, what kind of attire they're dressed in, language they speak , their names and realms are depicted in various imaginary ways .

Some are depicted with animals heads for example ..there's of course, lenghty explanation why it is so behind each . Some are considered peaceful, other rather 'wreathful protectors' of dharma , beautiful or ugly , male, female , and so on.

These are living archetypes planted in global human subcoscious through association with certain historical events and occurences .

In reality they are non of that .


It may be yet in time to come that more of the oracles and shamans , if they have a chance ..come out and speak about who are the deities .


From my own experience and understanding ..

all these 'wisdom beings' , deities , and I speak specifically of Tibetan tradition ..are pure love and intelligence .

They're sought for , called in, attracted ..in similar way as SETI uses telescopes to search for intelligent beacon in space , asked for communication.

It's actually not easy to do , unless the 'deity' choose to do it by themselves , originally of course ..they were the initiators of the contact .

The problem is that communication can occur on certain frequencies alone, not all of them are usual 'human' frequencies, not ones we use to chat among ourselves in human world .
But if you do meditation and explore what other frequencies are to your disposal, in your own brain, you may find out . That's how old yogis and meditators and shamans often experience some kind of communication with the 'other entities' even if they never searched for it.
For example Buddhist meditation in essence has nothing together with 'speaking to deities' , the base of Buddhist meditation is taught to be 'shamatha' and 'vipassana'. That is 'silence of mind' and 'self-inquiry' meditations respectively .
But if you follow them for long enough you accidentally discover that your body-mind intelligence exhibits much more capabilities than you were aware of previously .

So in a gist, instead of using some complicated technical equipment and telescopes ..you do long ritual and chant mantras and beat drums and blow trumpets in order to manifest a 'signal' . Frequency that is not exactly human .

If you have good luck and do all the technique with precision, you are in fact using the most intelligent hardware and software available and that is human body ...so if you have good luck , someone can hear you on that frequency .


Then , many times nothing else is going on, rituals are conducted daily to preserve the technique and the communication channel . They're so preserved for centuries together and the hard core fact is that mostly ..nothing happens ;)

And then sometimes , you may experience genuine communication with the other realm, one of them ..and the information is pretty cloaked, ciphered . Similar way as if you receive some complicated code .

You may have vision or hear words in your or another language during that time or experience physical energy in your body .


The communication was dressed to a ritual, ritual dance , ritual talk. Most of it is the 'method' , the 'receiving end' , system . Use of certain tools that help to facilitate the process and receive the message . No one can see from first glance what in it is 'for real'.

Because the 'intelligence' you receive is very subtle. So the medium often speaks in poetic language or makes a gesture to show what is the communication about .


At the same time ...there is lots of chaos and misunderstanding that goes along with 'questioning the oracle' .
Unless the message is expressed clearly and in its own will and accord and people rise questions about their individual problems or what will be the political situation next year ..the 'deity' may simply refuse to answer .
Or it speaks actually of something else than being asked about :)


It's more often the case ..you ask about one thing and get another ..because the questions may not be fitting well .


That's for the 'high end' and old tradition . Then , you have many trance states that look similar to this state but in fact , it's just the trance and 'channeling' one or another subcoscious archetype .


Guess it sounds complicated but hope I'm still explaining it well .



One basic rule I found about is that 'further' the entity is from human realm, more time-space distortion is involved.

What it means is getting 'weird looking picture' , sometimes frightening energy. In its true nature, the signal and the entity is non of it , it's just so different from human reality that rarely you can see it in its naked form .



From very old times, certain tribes of people had what is called SAMAYA in sanskrit, a commitment , today we would say ..they had an agreement .

The agreement said : be a good people, don't kill, don't steal, don't lie , keep as may purity vows as you can , preserve your abilities , train yourself and your children , protect knowledge and protect the technique and WE WILL COME BACK if you call us. Or at least, we will come back when you need us . Or simply...sometimes we will come back and give you a hand again.


Many old lamas say that the reason why Tibet was finally attacked by China is that many SAMAYAS , the agreements were broken .

Because there was lots of corruption , similarly to this modern society ...people conducting the rituals should have been pure .

Can't say if this is the truth or not , difficult to judge but it sounds logical . It's not easy for human society to remain pure at all times even if you give promise for it .


And as the saying goes in Buddhism again, there are two truth : relative , ordinary truth and absolute truth . Absolute truth is like 'the big picture' ,
and the two are like a cup and its content, the milk.

Of course, milk is the more important one, we all need the 'big picture' truth, the 'real knowledge', the 'big truth''. And the cup is the ordinary , relative, small everyday truth(s) that have seemigly nothing to do with the milk.

But if the cup is broken, if your ordinary purity of everyday is affected you can't hold the 'big truth' well either .


So..there has to be a resonance between the two ...







:hand:

[onawah]

That makes a lot of sense, Agape. Thanks.

[Agape]

Watch Cry of The Snow Lion movie posted here in another thread today by The One to understand more about what is happening in Tibet ..

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?31044-Cry-of-the-Snow-Lion


:angel:

[Mark]

Some years ago in Brazil a friend and I were snuck into a candomble ceremony and we were the only "tourists" there. It was a fascinating experience and the build up of energy as the ceremony progressed was huge. I was riveted by what was going on around me - people screaming, people fainting, people being dragged out, etc. as they were possessed by these deities. It appeared to be reaching a point out of control and our "guide" deemed it unsafe at that time and we were told to leave. I often wonder what could have potentially happened if we had stayed. There would have been a good probability of us becoming possessed as well and this is apparently something that has happened a number of times to visitors in the past. It seems that when we enter these altered states there are often cracks in our fields where these entities can get through and if we are not familiar with methods of sealing and protection, they can enter and really mess us up.

In ceremonies like that, only those who are capable of being "ridden by the dieties" are susceptible to such. These are ancient spirits who have had "relationships" with the ancestors of the people engaging in these practices for millenia, often, the ability runs in families. What your friend was probably meaning with that type of warning and precaution was that one of you might be genetically susceptible and didn't know it, as that is often how it is first discovered these days, when the lines of tradition have been blurred through migration, the imposition of the universal religions that broke the continuous line of descent, as families and practitioners seeking to get away from those lifestyles tried to forget it, not realizing that it was in the blood. This of course applies in all spiritual systems, as seen here in Tibet, Africa and also in Europe and middle and south America.

As far as sealing and protection, entities entering and messing you up, being exposed to those particular energies would not have brought you anything negative, BUT, all such exposures open up those who are susceptible to them. in Ifa and other possession-type traditions descended from it, the "gods and goddesses" are like family members. They are not seen as the actual "god" of creation. They are venerated and respected, given their due tribute for their help, but they are known not to be the overarching creative force. They are seen more like non-corporeal honored uncles and aunts, like family members. The predictions they make and suggestions for life are listened to, but not always followed, there is little fear involved in the process for those who are ridden and those who are the petitioners.

As far as messing you up goes, it's like all of a sudden you start to glow brighter in the astral realm, which draws entities to you in curiosity. In those cases you can be messed up if you have only cultivated low vibrations during your life, which allows low-4D-vibratory entities to actually become attached to you and live through you vicariously, adding another voice to the chorus of entities that are generally already attached to us. So it's dependent upon your own personal spiritual evolution, really, not just a general 'this is a bad thing and i'm in danger' kind of vibe. If you are protected, if your spiritual force is strong, you will always be fine.

:rapture:

[Eva2]

Some years ago in Brazil a friend and I were snuck into a candomble ceremony and we were the only "tourists" there. It was a fascinating experience and the build up of energy as the ceremony progressed was huge. I was riveted by what was going on around me - people screaming, people fainting, people being dragged out, etc. as they were possessed by these deities. It appeared to be reaching a point out of control and our "guide" deemed it unsafe at that time and we were told to leave. I often wonder what could have potentially happened if we had stayed. There would have been a good probability of us becoming possessed as well and this is apparently something that has happened a number of times to visitors in the past. It seems that when we enter these altered states there are often cracks in our fields where these entities can get through and if we are not familiar with methods of sealing and protection, they can enter and really mess us up.

In ceremonies like that, only those who are capable of being "ridden by the dieties" are susceptible to such. These are ancient spirits who have had "relationships" with the ancestors of the people engaging in these practices for millenia, often, the ability runs in families. What your friend was probably meaning with that type of warning and precaution was that one of you might be genetically susceptible and didn't know it, as that is often how it is first discovered these days, when the lines of tradition have been blurred through migration, the imposition of the universal religions that broke the continuous line of descent, as families and practitioners seeking to get away from those lifestyles tried to forget it, not realizing that it was in the blood. This of course applies in all spiritual systems, as seen here in Tibet, Africa and also in Europe and middle and south America.

As far as sealing and protection, entities entering and messing you up, being exposed to those particular energies would not have brought you anything negative, BUT, all such exposures open up those who are susceptible to them. in Ifa and other possession-type traditions descended from it, the "gods and goddesses" are like family members. They are not seen as the actual "god" of creation. They are venerated and respected, given their due tribute for their help, but they are known not to be the overarching creative force. They are seen more like non-corporeal honored uncles and aunts, like family members. The predictions they make and suggestions for life are listened to, but not always followed, there is little fear involved in the process for those who are ridden and those who are the petitioners.

As far as messing you up goes, it's like all of a sudden you start to glow brighter in the astral realm, which draws entities to you in curiosity. In those cases you can be messed up if you have only cultivated low vibrations during your life, which allows low-4D-vibratory entities to actually become attached to you and live through you vicariously, adding another voice to the chorus of entities that are generally already attached to us. So it's dependent upon your own personal spiritual evolution, really, not just a general 'this is a bad thing and i'm in danger' kind of vibe. If you are protected, if your spiritual force is strong, you will always be fine.

:rapture:

Thank you for your very perceptive interpretation of this. It certainly gives clarity to my experience. I am rather uncomfortable sharing my experiences on an open forum so am holding back lots of questions based on personal encounters and observations. I was recently told that I needed to "learn" how to clear on a daily basis as these entities (perhaps self-created thought forms) once aware of your light are very attracted to this and want to shut you down. These attachments seem to really feed and grow once anchored and can leave one in a state of confusion and fear. I have experienced altered states where I am free (I believe) of them and it feels so liberating, kind of eurphoric. I sometimes wonder if allowing something to enter, however well-intentioned, is setting us up to be followers of that consciousness instead of blazing our own path. I'm not sure - you seem to have a clearer grasp of this concept.

[Mark]

[QUOTE=Rahkyt;315899]Thank you for your very perceptive interpretation of this. It certainly gives clarity to my experience. I am rather uncomfortable sharing my experiences on an open forum so am holding back lots of questions based on personal encounters and observations. I was recently told that I needed to "learn" how to clear on a daily basis as these entities (perhaps self-created thought forms) once aware of your light are very attracted to this and want to shut you down. These attachments seem to really feed and grow once anchored and can leave one in a state of confusion and fear. I have experienced altered states where I am free (I believe) of them and it feels so liberating, kind of eurphoric. I sometimes wonder if allowing something to enter, however well-intentioned, is setting us up to be followers of that consciousness instead of blazing our own path. I'm not sure - you seem to have a clearer grasp of this concept.

I certainly understand that. Personally, I have been on the Net so long (1993) that there is no separation between my electronic and physical worlds. Being who I am, with my family connections, my life has pretty much been lived within the military industrial complex and the public sphere anyway so I have no illusions that anything I say or do, or anywhere I go, is secret or private. I'm kind of like the "black sheep" of my family because I didn't follow the prescribed pattern for my life but hey, gotta do me as you gotta do you, right? So it's all good.

1) Clearing is an excellent way of staying present, of keeping a Now-mentality at the forefront of your consciousness. Alongside clearing a daily meditative practice is also useful, because, through it you become very clear about who YOU are. When you know who YOU are, you know who YOU are not, and so you become able to quickly discern what "voices" "speaking" in your head originate with you, and which ones do not. As wild as this may sound, it's not, really. According to many sources, many traditions, we are all accompanied through our life path by many spirits. Some that came with us, some that we pick up along the way. These include the traditional discarnate entities who have never been embodied and also the "hungry ghosts" of lore and modern movie-making magic, who have not moved on yet. I have a friend who insists that there are really no ghosts or anything external, that it is all some manifestation of "self-created thought forms" which I really have no serious argument for or against. In fact, it's kind of logical and also fateful, since humanity creates gods and goddesses out of nothing. The attention gives them form and a sort of consciousness. By clearing, by making it a habit to exert your free-will choice to remain sovereign and banish anything not "of you" you are declaring your conscious awareness of your innate spiritual qualities to the multiverse.

2) Regarding entities wanting to shut you down, well, that is the crux of the matter, it seems. There are so many who believe love and light is the way and that the darkness can be banished by not even thinking about it, but our reality seems to prove that is not fully true at a material level. The world around us is filled with darkness and so it must be exist within us too. By ignoring it we don't banish it, we give it more power. The shadows in the corner of your mind grow when they sense fear, they feed off of it, and so these self-created entities or external discarnate beings begin to insist upon influencing your life, usually in a negative way and usually when you are weakened through emotional trauma, physical pain or drug usage, to include alcohol. My experience and studies have shown me that there is indeed a control system, but many do not believe it because they have not seen it at work in their lives. They have not "noticed" the small things that give it away. The strange coincidences that lead to negativity, the strange and inconsistent behavior of friends and family who sometimes seem "possessed", the way life paths can go awry when certain events occur to derail them at seemingly coincidental and opportune crossroads moments. Clearing and constant mindfulness are excellent ways to combat this influence as well as being aware of your environment. Empathy towards others, 'feeling' who others are gives you the ability to discern when they are not acting consistently, thereby warning you that you are in the middle of a control play by external entities. Even things that seem "too, good to be true", or coincidences that are "too perfect" can be suspect.

3) We are never alone. I don't know who you are, but I am an African-American, which means I'm mixed up. I've got African, European, Asian, and American Indian in me, which gives me claim to all traditions, everywhere, I ain't shamed ta claim it. ;) I know for a fact that I am protected, that my Honored Ancestors, both ancient and historical, are with me, every moment of every day. I've had some wild, strange experiences. Things and places where I should have died or had serious injury, synchronicities and help from strange quarters that moved me from one frame of mind to another, all kinds of things, as I'm sure so many on this forum have had as well. You may have Guardian Angels protecting you as well. Whatever the case may be, trumping all of this, is your own internal power. Your own capacity to claim your spiritual strength, cultivate it and manifest it in your own defense and growth. NOTHING can happen to you without your free will choice in the matter. But to manifest this, some say you have to make sure to shut down all pre-life agreements, as well as those you were tricked into or that you made before you were old enough to know better, with other entities - which may include those who came to help you, so you have to be careful in this, how you phrase it - which is a difficult proposition, as most of our best lessons seem terrible in our egoistic frameworks. Things that happen to us that we think are bad are usually good, in the long run, proving the old truism that anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

For me, it's all about claiming the highest intention, the highest potentiality (http://rahkyt.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/conscious-living-seeking-the-highest-potentiality/) for each instance. That way you learn to accept the things that happen to you in life, for good or bad, as something essential to your spiritual growth. This is the essence of "blazing your own path" as you put it so well. I hope this helps a bit. Sorry for going on so long. LOL

[TargeT]

I certainly understand that. Personally, I have been on the Net so long (1993) that there is no separation between my electronic and physical worlds. Being who I am, with my family connections, my life has pretty much been lived within the military industrial complex and the public sphere anyway so I have no illusions that anything I say or do, or anywhere I go, is secret or private. I'm kind of like the "black sheep" of my family because I didn't follow the prescribed pattern for my life but hey, gotta do me as you gotta do you, right? So it's all good.


Haha, my brother! (you just described the "african-american" version of me :P )

this is the right aproach also, it denies the fear mongering that prevents us from sharing on an "open forum", not that anyone can become comfortable before their time; those who are not yet comfortable, take heart, you can share online and nothing bad will happen! (other than people knowing who you actually are, and how is that bad?!)

Thanks for your posts, I'm trying to break into this subject myself from a research point of view & perhaps am starting to realise that these things are happening to me as well (possibly,, maybe not.. lots of doubts still). Facinating topic either way; I'm especialy glad the concept that not all extra-dimensional entitties are "negative", but seem to be ballanced, like the rest of the universe (or at least ballanced in their duality; which is sad, I figured duality was conquirable out side of 3d..)

[Mark]

Haha, my brother! (you just described the "african-american" version of me :P )

I knew I wasn't alone. LOL You a military brat?


this is the right aproach also, it denies the fear mongering that prevents us from sharing on an "open forum", not that anyone can become comfortable before their time; those who are not yet comfortable, take heart, you can share online and nothing bad will happen! (other than people knowing who you actually are, and how is that bad?!)

Nah, we're not at the time yet when they're going to come beating down doors to get the dissidents. And when and if that day ever comes, the rest of the population will probably be in just as bad a shape as those of us who will be enjoying a vacation at government expense and the taxpayer's dollar, if that's even still the currency at that time.


Thanks for your posts, I'm trying to break into this subject myself from a research point of view & perhaps am starting to realise that these things are happening to me as well (possibly,, maybe not.. lots of doubts still). Facinating topic either way; I'm especialy glad the concept that not all extra-dimensional entitties are "negative", but seem to be ballanced, like the rest of the universe (or at least ballanced in their duality; which is sad, I figured duality was conquirable out side of 3d..)

I like to employ a scientific framework because that is how I have been trained for years, and also the best way to describe and discuss these issues without appealing to sentimentality, emotion, belief and uncorroborated and subjective perception. People tend to pay a bit more attention when you can back up what you say not only with personal experience but with some sort of greater and more "objective" framework. It is fascinating. I really appreciated this Tibetan video because I'm all about synthesis and bringing things together. Spirituality is, really, a world-wide, probably universe-wide constant. If that is truly so, then what we experience on one part of the planet is the same as other parts, just described differently by different cultures. I was happy to recognize this video from my own personal cultural experiences and see that the traditions in dealing with it are the same.

As long as these entities are not worshiped, in my experience and opinion, all is well. In the African traditions, even Ancestors can become "gods and goddesses", if they are honorable enough, much like in the Christian tradition certain people can become Saints and become venerated because of that. Saints and Angels correspond to "gods and goddesses" in the African syncretic religions such as Vodun, Candomble and Santeria, that is how the enslaved-Africans were able to mask their traditional worship using Christianity, which, in its practices and rituals, mirrors almost exactly ancient Egyptian religions and structure. If you doubt this, please examine the Kabala and the Egyptian Tree of Life ... as well as look at the Eucharist and the whole "Solar Diety" construct and its prevalence in the ancient world.

NO FEAR. lol Now is the time where all secrets are revealed. It's good to participate in that Revelation ...

[Agape]

As long as these entities are not worshiped, in my experience and opinion, all is well. In the African traditions, even Ancestors can become "gods and goddesses", if they are honorable enough, much like in the Christian tradition certain people can become Saints and become venerated because of that. Saints and Angels correspond to "gods and goddesses" in the African syncretic religions such as Vodun, Candomble and Santeria, that is how the enslaved-Africans were able to mask their traditional worship using Christianity, which, in its practices and rituals, mirrors almost exactly ancient Egyptian religions and structure. If you doubt this, please examine the Kabala and the Egyptian Tree of Life ... as well as look at the Eucharist and the whole "Solar Diety" construct and its prevalence in the ancient world.

NO FEAR. lol Now is the time where all secrets are revealed. It's good to participate in that Revelation ...


Worshiped ...no, I don't think it's the correct term but I'd say ..respected . Respected for who they are . It's a way of course how to teach people to respect each other and all forms of life , respect their differences .

I think it's where 'the West' run into trouble for long periods of time with their extreme skepticism and forced equality ..not that there would be existentially anything wrong with equality should it also mean discernment based on knowledge . We knew, we have forgotten so we have to le-learn.

I've experienced 2 or 3 distinct cultures and upbringings during my life and though I love people here as there the same, and though this so called 'modern' civilisation seems to have lots of advantages ,
I fear that it has lost its roots long ago and links to real knowledge , the feel of it even .

That has very nothing to do of course with discrimination based on caste, birth, wealth or position of authority . It's about the ability to tune into the other and discern about his/her qualities even before you ever start to speak .

People were too long treated as biological entities, advanced animals..so called sheeple that can be measured , scaled against each other , given treats and brought to their knees .
The uniquenness of individuality does not seem to play role in 'modern cultures' unless it's used as a tool to produce money . The inner abilities were traded for material goods and achievments long ago here ..and now the same people, well some of them, complain that they 'can't see' .

How could they see if they were taught not to.

The same way , there was 'higher ethics' and purity rules preserved in almost all advanced old cultures, with respect to the communication with 'other worlds' .

Without being actually initiated to those , what do most people respect here is money and material miracles. They laugh off everything that is labeled 'higher ' or different .

Play strong to kill the subtle and at the end ...they feel they lost the way.

Despite those many physical hardships Tibetan or Indian people get in their daily lives they've always mantianed good spirits.

Even if it's so hard to preserve in todays world ..from my own side and it's not matter of decision but necessity , I can't do well here, can't trade the deeper truth for some sort of outer sense of satisfaction.


Namaste :pray:

[Sierra]

Spirituality is, really, a world-wide, probably universe-wide constant. If that is truly so, then what we experience on one part of the planet is the same as other parts, just described differently by different cultures. I was happy to recognize this video from my own personal cultural experiences and see that the traditions in dealing with it are the same.

NO FEAR. lol Now is the time where all secrets are revealed. It's good to participate in that Revelation ...

Shamanism is a universal constant across all living cultures :) though I really couldn't say about off-world cultures ...

I don't view shamanic communication as possession or unnatural to a human being or as beings to be worshipped. It is just communication. It is practiced universally by all human cultures not suppressed by TPTW, which really does point to this form of communication or information access, as intrinsic to the nature of a human.

No fear indeed :)

"All is a manifestation of one law" is a good way to put it.

[modwiz]

What a wonderful thread this is that speaks to me so deeply and touches my essence. Agape you are a treasure to this forum and I am glad that you never seem to tire of sharing what you can with us even though sometimes your voice may be overwhelmed by 'louder' post(er)s.

Rahkyt, you are relatively new here but it is a great pleasure to be taking this ride with you.

The many others here also complete and fill in the picture here and I thank you all.

[Mark]

Worshiped ...no, I don't think it's the correct term but I'd say ..respected . Respected for who they are . It's a way of course how to teach people to respect each other and all forms of life , respect their differences .

Exactly. Because of the long-term relationship with these energetic entities, their properties are quite well known. How they will act, what they like, what they do not like. Because they are not human, but because they seem to be able to exert some form of power over humans and this world, they are to be respected, if only out of an unwillingness to be on their bad side. LOL


I think it's where 'the West' run into trouble for long periods of time with their extreme skepticism and forced equality ..not that there would be existentially anything wrong with equality should it also mean discernment based on knowledge . We knew, we have forgotten so we have to le-learn.

Not sure what you mean here by "forced equality" but I do know what you mean by extreme skepticism. The West has been the lens through which the extra-dimensional powers-that-be have focused their intent to control and limit humanity. Through what inherent properties, propensities or limitations found or inculcated in that civilization - the presence or absence of which was the dominant factor in them making this decision - I am hesitant to speculate, but the application of force has certainly been a liberal aspect of the control system in its self-maintenance within and systemic maintenance without.


That has very nothing to do of course with discrimination based on caste, birth, wealth or position of authority . It's about the ability to tune into the other and discern about his/her qualities even before you ever start to speak .

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think that the material and spiritual aspects are separate. Meaning, I don't think that discrimination based upon whatever marker is separate from being able to tune in to others. Compartmentalization, segregation, have been major tools in the domination of the West over other civilizations, and has resulted in the individual 'tamping down' of these inherent abilities. I think one leads to the other and you can look at nothing in isolation. Everything is related, everything is connected.


People were too long treated as biological entities, advanced animals..so called sheeple that can be measured , scaled against each other , given treats and brought to their knees .
The uniquenness of individuality does not seem to play role in 'modern cultures' unless it's used as a tool to produce money . The inner abilities were traded for material goods and achievments long ago here ..and now the same people, well some of them, complain that they 'can't see' .

The culmination of the perfect control system, yes. It has one more large stage to move into, but its formulation is complete, its parameters set.


Even if it's so hard to preserve in todays world ..from my own side and it's not matter of decision but necessity , I can't do well here, can't trade the deeper truth for some sort of outer sense of satisfaction.

Excellent point. It is a matter of necessity that we look beyond the external to find what is true and real.


I don't view shamanic communication as possession or unnatural to a human being or as beings to be worshipped. It is just communication. It is practiced universally by all human cultures not suppressed by TPTW, which really does point to this form of communication or information access, as intrinsic to the nature of a human.

Very well said. That there are certain rituals that have been followed is in part cultural detritus and in part necessary energetic work, the employment of logos in the invocation of energies designed to thin the veil between worlds. But superstitions and stereotypes abound, sometimes, for good reason. Over time people do get caught up in the pomp and circumstance and 'put on airs'. What was living becomes ossified and even if the original relationship is maintained, there is always the element of human nature to consider as well as the nature of these entities who, to my understanding, LOVE to be loved. LOL Bottom line is that you've got to be careful, ego ever threatens, and when you're dealing with non-physical egos, the parameters of consciousness are, literally, beyond imagining.


"All is a manifestation of one law" is a good way to put it.

I like that! :first:


What a wonderful thread this is that speaks to me so deeply and touches my essence. Agape you are a treasure to this forum and I am glad that you never seem to tire of sharing what you can with us even though sometimes your voice may be overwhelmed by 'louder' post(er)s.

Rahkyt, you are relatively new here but it is a great pleasure to be taking this ride with you.

I feel this way constantly about some of the discussions I find here in the PA. I'm honored by the company, thank you for your kind words Modwiz, the pleasure is reciprocated!