Meditation is giving thought its right place

[ktlight]

This is a questions and answers talk by Krishnamurti.

"K: The mind is part of love. Go very carefully into this, please. You think it out sir, go into it, dialogue.

Is love remembrance? Go into it madame, just look at it. I am asking you. Is love something that has happened and you remember it? Therefore I am asking, is love part of remembrance? You have been kind to me, I remember it and therefore I have affection for you. You know - remembering. Is love a remembrance? If it is not, is it then within the structure and nature of the mind? This is a very difficult question, please don't just slip it by. That is why I want to go into this carefully.

We have defined more or less - that definition can be changed - the nature of the mind, with all the senses so on, so on, and all this is predominated by thought. Right? That is the central activity - right? - that controls the senses, exaggerates the senses, gives importance to a certain sense and not to the others, that creates images, conclusions, aggressiveness, assertiveness. All that is the activity of thought. Right? So thought predominates all our activity, including the senses, dominating the intelligence of the body. You are following all this? So thought is the central factor that is constantly operating - controlling, deciding, changing, modifying, pursuing, establishing a goal and driving towards that, and the past, with all its memories, anxieties, all that, the whole of that is the activity of the mind, which is thought. Right? You are quite sure? Please discuss with me. Please!"

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-video/meditation-is-giving-thought-its-right-place-full-version.php

[ktlight]

Is no-one interested in discussing whether Meditation is giving thought its right place?

[Tony]

Well, i would have to kindly disagree but perhaps I've misunderstood. Perhaps that is where he is leading us!
Pure mind IS love or compassion. When one has realised the nature of mind which is Pure and Cognisant -beyond thought,
it finds true inner peace. This inner peace of joy looks out and sees 'beings' not noticing their inner peace, so sadness
arises = love and compassion.

Ones true nature is love and compassion for NO reason, it just is. Once established, no outside force can disturb this happiness.
But it is always tinged with sadness.

[ktlight]

Well, i would have to kindly disagree but perhaps I've misunderstood. Perhaps that is where he is leading us!
Pure mind IS love or compassion. When one has realised the nature of mind which is Pure and Cognisant -beyond thought,
it finds true inner peace. This inner peace of joy looks out and sees 'beings' not noticing their inner peace, so sadness
arises = love and compassion.

Ones true nature is love and compassion for NO reason, it just is. Once established, no outside force can disturb this happiness.
But it is always tinged with sadness.

K says, if one is aware of performing mediation, that is not mediation, because the effort is by thought. I can see that.

Here's a question for you, pie'n'eal, what is the difference between meditation and contemplation?

[FreeMyMind]

Having just returned from a meditation retreat this weekend I can share what I came to understand. Going into the weekend I believed that I had been meditating for years. I have a routine practice and sit everyday for a period of time and do my breathing etc. I always come out of it feeling calmer and more energised and I thought I was meditating. Over the years this practice has helped me with my spiritual journey as I receive much clarity during these times. What I came to understand this weekend was that what I was doing was learning to control my mind better but never did I transcend it. I was learning mindfulness, but it was more like quiet contemplation or even prayer than meditation. From what I now understand, truth and love and creative force are not mind they are beyond it, and only true stillness and one pointed focus can begin to allow access to this. When I can I will take a longer retreat and hopefully begin to experience a glimpse of this.

I am no expert only a fellow traveler and greatly appreciate this level of discussion. Thanks


I have a long way to go (longer than I thought :() , but hey it's a journey.

[Tony]

It's nice to chat...!
Contemplation is also known as analytical meditation. It is where you take a theme, and think about it.

There are various stages of meditation - we start with concentration on an object or the breath to give us focus. This is meditation with support.
Meditation without support is resting in a sense of 'nowness', just perceiving. But here, there is the perceiver and the thing that is perceived.
The final stage is just mere perception taking place. No notion of perceiver or thoughts about what is being perceived.

We can oscillate between all the types of meditation and they are all valid.

It is like when you suddenly come upon a flower...there is a moment of child-like perception - there is just a seeing.
Then the thought comes in, "How lovely!" and we start to want to find a name for it!
The initial mere perception, that pure experience before we start to express it, is maybe the non-meditation to which K is referring.

We need to express in order to convey information to somebody else - but there is a danger, of relying on sophisticated words that can obscure actual experience.

What a lovely, huge subject!

Best wishes
Tony

[FreeMyMind]

Thanks Tony

I guess based on those definitions the journey of meditation is meant to lead to the final stage where one can remain as an observer, in the world but not of it as they say. To simply BE, as a witness to the experience of living rather than allowing the mind to define life.
Yes a huge subject !

[grapevine]

Can I join in . . .? I am not an expert but I think the difference between meditation and contemplation is one of concentration. When you contemplate, you concentrate strongly on whatever it is that you're thinking about, whereas when you meditate you open yourself to receive and therefore other thoughts come through as well . . . . I have found that my thoughts during meditation are sometimes grounds for contemplation afterwards.

[ktlight]

It's nice to chat...!
Contemplation is also known as analytical meditation. It is where you take a theme, and think about it.

There are various stages of meditation - we start with concentration on an object or the breath to give us focus. This is meditation with support.
Meditation without support is resting in a sense of 'nowness', just perceiving. But here, there is the perceiver and the thing that is perceived.
The final stage is just mere perception taking place. No notion of perceiver or thoughts about what is being perceived.

We can oscillate between all the types of meditation and they are all valid.

It is like when you suddenly come upon a flower...there is a moment of child-like perception - there is just a seeing.
Then the thought comes in, "How lovely!" and we start to want to find a name for it!
The initial mere perception, that pure experience before we start to express it, is maybe the non-meditation to which K is referring.

We need to express in order to convey information to somebody else - but there is a danger, of relying on sophisticated words that can obscure actual experience.

What a lovely, huge subject!

Best wishes
Tony

Hi pie'n'eal, K says that where there is movement of thought, there is no meditation. So, any effort to meditate is movement of thought and therefore not meditation. Your description of the flower and seeing, is when there is no ego. Beautiful.

[vibrations]

Dear ktlight

In all this years I didn't find better (at least for me) definition of the way how to meditate, what to do and what can be achieved with it, than I find listening and reading the Esther and Jerry Hicks work on Abraham (the law of attraction is the most famous thing they came up with). So, just stopping every thought, every left brain mess, everything which distracts you to be you. Then, in that mind peacefulness, you start to be closer and closer to the real yourself, to your core, to your spiritual essence. Closer you are, more powerful is your connection with the Universe, more powerful is every desire you have and closer you are to cocreate the Universe.

[ktlight]

vibrations, do you mean that you have put thought in its place, or that you are following someone's method to meditate?

[Tony]

Thanks Tony

I guess based on those definitions the journey of meditation is meant to lead to the final stage where one can remain as an observer, in the world but not of it as they say. To simply BE, as a witness to the experience of living rather than allowing the mind to define life.
Yes a huge subject !

Hello FreeMyMind...great name!
I'm a bit of a stickler for being precise, mainly because I have been led down fluffy alleys. So I apologise for getting up your nose...and tugging on the hairs!

There is a stage where there is merely an observer or perceiver and the perceived, but the is still conceptual, there is a duality going on. This and that.
If in that duality one rests in an unmodified way, then mere perception occurs. No this and that. That is non-meditation, called the view.

Once the view is known, then meditation is the continuity of that in daily life, called conduct.

True it is helpful to just note what is going on in the world. This discerning whether to get involved or not, as there is much distraction surrounding us.

Tony

[ktlight]

Can I join in . . .? I am not an expert but I think the difference between meditation and contemplation is one of concentration. When you contemplate, you concentrate strongly on whatever it is that you're thinking about, whereas when you meditate you open yourself to receive and therefore other thoughts come through as well . . . . I have found that my thoughts during meditation are sometimes grounds for contemplation afterwards.

Contemplation is thoughtful observation or study, therefore not mediation. Mediation is without thought.

[Tony]

It's nice to chat...!
Contemplation is also known as analytical meditation. It is where you take a theme, and think about it.

There are various stages of meditation - we start with concentration on an object or the breath to give us focus. This is meditation with support.
Meditation without support is resting in a sense of 'nowness', just perceiving. But here, there is the perceiver and the thing that is perceived.
The final stage is just mere perception taking place. No notion of perceiver or thoughts about what is being perceived.

We can oscillate between all the types of meditation and they are all valid.

It is like when you suddenly come upon a flower...there is a moment of child-like perception - there is just a seeing.
Then the thought comes in, "How lovely!" and we start to want to find a name for it!
The initial mere perception, that pure experience before we start to express it, is maybe the non-meditation to which K is referring.

We need to express in order to convey information to somebody else - but there is a danger, of relying on sophisticated words that can obscure actual experience.

What a lovely, huge subject!

Best wishes
Tony

Hi pie'n'eal, K says that where there is movement of thought, there is no meditation. So, any effort to meditate is movement of thought and therefore not meditation. Your description of the flower and seeing, is when there is no ego. Beautiful.

Hello again,
You have brought up an interesting point, about thoughts in meditation, also called the moving mind. When our minds are excited with thoughts we need to calm it down.
(We have to remember the Buddha said,"not too tight and not too loose." )
So when the mind is excited we need to concentrate as W1ndmill said. But once it is sort of under control, we rest in awareness, being in the now.Thoughts will come but we just say "Hello, good bye!" Gradually the mind becomes more spacious, and as we do not cling to thoughts, they are allowed in because they have no effect on us.
This helps, as meditation can take place in daily life.

Different traditions may differ about this. It all depend on the individual temperament!

Tony

[vibrations]

vibrations, do you mean that you have put thought in its place, or that you are following someone's method to meditate?
No, I believe that you are the only one you have to listen to. All the methods are just a tools which are suitable or not for the way you feel comfortable. I feel comfortable with this method because it helps me to quiet the mind and start to be closer to my real self. It's just a way how to do it, not better nor worst than any other. We are all unique, and everybody has a bit different approach to himself.

When I first heard about the meditation, there was like I will never be able to do it. Like go to the mountain, stay there next 40 years looking in to the candle flame and if nothing happens stay there another 40 years. And I believe that was true than, but we are evolving, becoming more sensible, our pineal gland started to work little by little, so for me the meditation is a tool to clear out every mental process, make a STOP, like a computer restart, empty all the buffers and after this, the same problems are seen from the different perspective, with more calm, less fear, less stress, and are much more manageable.

This is basically why I love meditation (my way of it off course).
Cheers ktl

[Ernie Nemeth]

My favorite meditation is while riding on the train to work or where ever. The reason is that I welcome the distraction, even revel in it. I practice letting it all go there, going beyond the senses. Once I achieve that, there is no more thought. And then I just am. If I achieve this state I often feel a great sense of joy and peace when I become aware again. But while there I feel nothing at all, no sense, no feeling, no thought. And there, without ever knowing it - I AM.

Only when I return (could be 2 seconds or 12 subway stops) is when I feel the joy and analyze the experience.

[ktlight]

Thanks Tony

I guess based on those definitions the journey of meditation is meant to lead to the final stage where one can remain as an observer, in the world but not of it as they say. To simply BE, as a witness to the experience of living rather than allowing the mind to define life.
Yes a huge subject !

There is a stage where there is merely an observer or perceiver and the perceived, but the is still conceptual, there is a duality going on.

Where there is the observer, there is also the observed. Then comes the realisation that the observer is the observed - it is seen.

Interestingly, particles are observed before they exist in the Hadron Collider.

[Tony]

Thanks Tony

I guess based on those definitions the journey of meditation is meant to lead to the final stage where one can remain as an observer, in the world but not of it as they say. To simply BE, as a witness to the experience of living rather than allowing the mind to define life.
Yes a huge subject !

There is a stage where there is merely an observer or perceiver and the perceived, but the is still conceptual, there is a duality going on.

Where there is the observer, there is also the observed. Then comes the realisation that the observer is the observed - it is seen.

Interestingly, particles are observed before they exist in the Hadron Collider.

Right.............................!

[FreeMyMind]

Sorry had to run off to work so left this conversation and I was really enjoying it!

For me I guess the distinction is a meditation vs life philosophy. during meditation we can (although I haven't yet) fully transcend reality, be in no-time, no-space, pure nothingness. I don't' know about you but my daily life doesn't feel like that! So , during daily life it becomes a philosophy about the reality you inhabit that evolves with the experiences that are had while meditating .

I think the act of witnessing life rather than defining it still allows for this 3D illusion to exist. It brings the wave into particle form and therefore physical manifestation. As we reach a critical mass of people who can reach that stage of no longer being observer or the observed, is that when the reality disappears? Is that what this consciousness shift really is? No one pays any mind to the 3D illusion and it folds in on itself somehow?
Just a thought

With love and respect