Stop working and the system has to change

[woodshreder]

I have for many years been working a non-traditional job and had a major portion of my earnings taken from me and spent on things I have absolutley no say in
In essence "Feeding the Beast" In this system "WE" have allowed ourselves to be fooled beyond belief . Our own ignorance and gulibility has caused a countless amount of death, destruction ,famine, starvation and suffering to this planet and its inhabitants.
Would we be better off if everyone just stoped working, stop paying everything .Let the monetary system totally crash Put the brakes on all this illegal currency and the spending of it, stop being prisoners of their system and create our own humaintarian bartering system for whats needed to get by on, even if it meant we have nothing but ourselves and our fellow man in which to rely, rise from the depths, and finally create a self suffcient utopia and healed planet . Isnt it time to say STOP THIS MADNESS?... We are not slaves, we need to stop acting like we are... and then they just might get the message "Free at last"
What are your thoughts?

[Ernie Nemeth]

Although the idea is absolutely sound, this will not happen until we have a source of energy that is compact and cheap.
The masses are so immured, so hopelessly reliant on the system that until they wake up, they are our enemies. Sound familiar? Paraphrased from the movie, The Matrix.

Besides that, you are preaching to the choir, my friend. I suggest reading some of Wade Frasier's work on his website, A healed planet:
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/upcoming.htm

Another great avenue for changing the current paradigm is the "Freeman" campain. That is a concept that explores the nature of the legal system and methods to remove oneself from the morass of current legislative slight-of-hand perpetrated on the citizens. It is a fascinating subject that breaks the mesmerizing and corrupt use of legaleese to trick the people into abrogating their rights to their leaders who are nothing more than steering committees for the corporations that they call countries.

[transitionalman]

This is a really important issue, and the this thought has been weighing on my mind a lot recently.

[Peace4all]

I love this idea, wish it was more probable though. :)
I'm only 19, but I can't imagine myself in any career, going to work for $9 an hour everyday hurts my soul. Especially seeing everyone in my workplace stressing out over their job... It seems like none of them enjoy their lives or something:confused:
Maybe i could enjoy work a little more if it was doing something that impacted others positively, or perhaps made the earth a better place.
WE need a better system!

Peace to all :peace:

[Erich]

Bravo! I'm glad to read this. Stop participating in the systems that are corrupt or dishonest as much as you possibly can.

[daledo]

They have filtered out the community values that we once had and people have traded this for more working hours and in tern more money pumped into the gov't and corporations. I havn't bought anything new besides groceries that I can't grown in years. I barter all i can with people. If you can't find a group in your area that has many skilled laborers from all fields that help each other out ... start one. The Amish have been doing this for a very long time. Bring back the community and get rid of their money.

Great thread.

[Maia Gabrial]

I think that we're almost there. We work for money that isn't there, especially if it's direct deposited. So, in essence, we work for nothing. We pay with nothing if we use credit cards and debit cards. So, why not just eliminate all of that and just have everything free? People would be surprised at how much THEY DON'T NEED....
Besides, I like the idea of seeing the elites (TPTW) suddenly become "worthless" when money becomes obsolete. All their powers would become obsolete, too.... Eliminating currency is the best equalizer ever....

[kersley]

woodshreder...
You're absolutely right. my sentiments exactly..
I have recently joined a group called freeman on the land. It's only been 3 months since i joined,But i can feel the effects. I recently got fined for not having tax on my car. I don't own the car I'm just the registered keeper. So I'm not responsible for the tax on the car.. all they can do is threaten me. for the first time in my life I'm getting to see what freedom really is.
I have no fear of them anymore. What can they do to me? take away my material possessions? but can't take away the love and spirit that lives inside of me. Now it would seem that they are afraid of me.

Yes we should all bail out and become free once again. one day the people will take back the power we foolishly gave away. Don't fight for slavery. fight for freedom.

[motherlove]

The system would work fine in an abundance consciousness. With a complete change of belief and perspective there would be no class no usury no suppression of ideas or creativity. The idea of having to pay to live is what puts us in a maze and on the wheel it separates us from our compassion. The catalyst IMHO is to change your belief and dare to imagine a world of abundance, imagine it frequently with all the emotion you can possibly generate. It has been said you are a creator. We are not powerless. Best Wishes.

[PHARAOH]

This is a no brainer. Unfortunately, we are the minority. Many will hate and attack you for writing these truths so be at the ready. It is just this simple. However, many will rationalize why we need to wait, hold off until or better yet accuse you of starting trouble. Far too many do not want to give up thier cushie lifestyles for the betterment of humanity and the world; but what fools these mortals be. We are where we are by consent of the many, refusing to stand up or speak up and do the right thing. I myself have choosen to be that which I wish to see in this world and sad to say feel very alone. However it is my choice and I love it as opposed to having bad company. It is this simple:

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.)
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers.
3. Stop going to work.
4. Stop sending our children to school.
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes.
7. Stop paying any and all debts.
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID.
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government.

These are just to kick start this peaceful revolution.

[kersley]

This is a no brainer. Unfortunately, we are the minority. Many will hate and attack you for writing these truths so be at the ready. It is just this simple. However, many will rationalize why we need to wait, hold off until or better yet accuse you of starting trouble. Far too many do not want to give up thier cushie lifestyles for the betterment of humanity and the world; but what fools these mortals be. We are where we are by consent of the many, refusing to stand up or speak up and do the right thing. I myself have choosen to be that which I wish to see in this world and sad to say feel very alone. However it is my choice and I love it as opposed to having bad company. It is this simple:

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.)
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers.
3. Stop going to work.
4. Stop sending our children to school.
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes.
7. Stop paying any and all debts.
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID.
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government.

These are just to kick start this peaceful revolution.

Its not going to be easy, but the freedom at the end of the road is most definately worth it. Take back control of your life. Make it happen I say..
This video puts it nicely..
http://youtu.be/60DfpHyuuL0

[Lord Sidious]

This is a no brainer. Unfortunately, we are the minority. Many will hate and attack you for writing these truths so be at the ready. It is just this simple. However, many will rationalize why we need to wait, hold off until or better yet accuse you of starting trouble. Far too many do not want to give up thier cushie lifestyles for the betterment of humanity and the world; but what fools these mortals be. We are where we are by consent of the many, refusing to stand up or speak up and do the right thing. I myself have choosen to be that which I wish to see in this world and sad to say feel very alone. However it is my choice and I love it as opposed to having bad company. It is this simple:

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.)
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers.
3. Stop going to work.
4. Stop sending our children to school.
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes.
7. Stop paying any and all debts.
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID.
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government.

These are just to kick start this peaceful revolution.

Its not going to be easy, but the freedom at the end of the road is most definately worth it. Take back control of your life. Make it happen I say..
This video puts it nicely..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60DfpHyuuL0&feature=youtu.be

There ya go nugget.

[RMorgan]

Well, I´m 28 years old. As soon as I graduated, at 22, I got a job, at a Design Bureau. People there were very friendly, it was a nice work environment, and I´ve got promoted really fast, so I became Creative Director and got a pretty decent salary.

However, I started to get sick very often. I couldn´t stand the idea of having a boss, of selling my precious time on this planet for someone who was profiting millions over my creativity, and I couldn´t stand the fact that I was using my gifts to promote the work of all kinds of corporations.

Basically, my job was to create beautiful, astonishing costumes, to make wolves look like the most cute sheep.

I had two choices, then. Leave it or die. I swear to you I tried to get used to it, to look "normal", to be "normal", but I couldn´t. I really couldn´t.

You know, if there´s one thing I can say about becoming awaken and aware, is that there´s no turning back.

So I quit it, and today, I have my own Design Studio. All my employees work at home, and are free to do whatever they want with their time, as long as they meet the deadlines.

I don´t work for corporations anymore, in fact, I choose my clients, and that became a key point to my studio.

Whenever I get a meeting with some client, I ask everything about their company, and, in the end, I ask why they want me to design for them. If they can convince me, I get the job, if not, I don´t.

It´s kind of funny, because my work became some sort of rarity in the market and I was allowed to charge more for it.

But that´s not enough for me. I´m just making my reserves it and I´ll quit everything as soon as I can.

Cheers,

Raf.

[Nairnia]

Nice idea but before you think that, spend the next week doing completely without the things we use/need in everyday life which people work to provide us. Switch off your electricity, dont flush the toilet, dont put your garbage out on the street for collection, no more water from the tap. No driving to the store, nothing. Let us know after one week how you got on, like I said, nice idea but......

[RMorgan]

This thread reminds me of the Atlas Shrugged book, by Ayn Rand. Really good book, by the way, if you take off the idealistic capitalism stuff.

[Bryn ap Gwilym]

How far are you willing to go to oppose the monster?
Before anyone answers this, sit down & take a long good look of everything that is in your possession, from a paper clip to your house insurance. Now do a background check on all of the companies that have sold you these things. You will be shocked to see that at least 90/95% of what you have or are doing leads right back to the monster(s) over filled dinner plate.

A prime example is, if you are using either a Microsoft or Apple operating system you are in fact directly feeding the monster. How many will now change to a GNU os?

Things will only start to change when folk who want change do so themselves.

Some Free as in FreeDom operating systems
Distrowatch (http://distrowatch.com/)
gNewSense (http://www.gnewsense.org/Main/HomePage)
GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/)

Edit:



PHARAOH

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.) Done
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers. Done
3. Stop going to work. Done
4. Stop sending our children to school. Done
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out. Still needed in some area's.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes. Done
7. Stop paying any and all debts. Done
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID. Done-ish
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government. Done

[ponda]

Nice idea but before you think that, spend the next week doing completely without the things we use/need in everyday life which people work to provide us. Switch off your electricity, dont flush the toilet, dont put your garbage out on the street for collection, no more water from the tap. No driving to the store, nothing. Let us know after one week how you got on, like I said, nice idea but......

Well i can't go without everything but i have been hand washing my clothes using rain water collected in buckets and containers for 10 years.I use the collected grey water to flush the toilet.I throw my vegetable waste into the forest when i go walking and put the plastic/metal/glass stuff into recycle bins.I pick up papers and trash when i walk along the trails etc.I walk to the store (3k's) and cab it back.Hey i know it's not a lot but to me it's the least i can do.

[THIRDEYE]

ive often pondered if everybody in america didnt frive for one day...what would happen the gas prices and the sorage facilitys from exports...if every american went on srike for one day the corporations would be backlogged with there product...i like this post and most enjoyed what morgan had to say....poeple we can bring down this cabal and the rothchilds and we need to unite as one....just some food for thought ...light love and abundance ...thirdeye....

[RMorgan]

How far are you willing to go to oppose the monster?
Before anyone answers this, sit down & take a long good look of everything that is in your possession, from a paper clip to your house insurance. Now do a background check on all of the companies that have sold you these things. You will be shocked to see that at least 90/95% of what you have or are doing leads right back to the monster(s) over filled dinner plate.

A prime example is, if you are using either a Microsoft or Apple operating system you are in fact directly feeding the monster. How many will now change to a GNU os?

Things will only start to change when folk who want change do so themselves.

Some Free as in FreeDom operating systems
Distrowatch (http://distrowatch.com/)
gNewSense (http://www.gnewsense.org/Main/HomePage)
GNU (http://www.gnu.org/)
Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/)

Edit:



PHARAOH

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.) Done
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers. Done
3. Stop going to work. Done
4. Stop sending our children to school. Done
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out. Still needed in some area's.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes. Done
7. Stop paying any and all debts. Done
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID. Done-ish
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government. Done

Hey Bryn,

I try to use Linux more often, on my multi boot system, but the main problem is that some pretty essential software for my work aren´t available for it. There are some similar gnu based software out there, for sure, but they aren´t good enough for my needs.

As soon as you can install any windows software on Linux, I´ll quit windows forever.

However, for those who people use the computer only for internet, music, movies and general entertainment, I highly recommend installing Ubuntu, but you´ll have to be a little computer savvy to have a nice relationship with it, because command line is very often needed and updating the drivers can be pretty annoying sometimes.

[Bryn ap Gwilym]

RMorgan Hi.

GNU has nearly 40,000 free programmes. I know a good number of them are direct free alternatives to the monsters spyware products. I find it hard to imagine that you can not find a programme to replace the one you have.


recommend installing Ubuntu, but you´ll have to be a little computer savvy to have a nice relationship with it, because command line is very often needed and updating the drivers can be pretty annoying sometimes.
Not true.
Ubuntu is designed for non-programmers & to drag folk away from the corporate monster. There is no need no for noobs to use the command line for anything.
The terminal is still there for power uses & anyone who would like to see & learn how their rig works. Making the terminal a very powerful tool for folk to monitor & access any part of the rig.

Folk want change, but always use an excuse not too.

Edit:

As soon as you can install any windows software on Linux, I´ll quit windows forever.
You can with Wine (http://www.winehq.org/)

[Lord Sidious]

Not everything will run with WINE, or the other variants.

[RMorgan]

RMorgan Hi.

GNU has nearly 40,000 free programmes. I know a good number of them are direct free alternatives to the monsters spyware products. I find it hard to imagine that you can not find a programme to replace the one you have.


recommend installing Ubuntu, but you´ll have to be a little computer savvy to have a nice relationship with it, because command line is very often needed and updating the drivers can be pretty annoying sometimes.
Not true.
Ubuntu is designed for non-programmers & to drag folk away from the corporate monster. There is no need no for noobs to use the command line for anything.
The terminal is still there for power uses & anyone who would like to see & learn how their rig works. Making the terminal a very powerful tool for folk to monitor & access any part from the rig.

Folk want change, but always use an excuse not too.

Edit:

As soon as you can install any windows software on Linux, I´ll quit windows forever.
You can with Wine (http://www.winehq.org/)

Hey Bryn! :)

Well, for my profession, using the Adobe Suite is essential (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign). I know there are free alternatives, but they don´t get even close in therms of functions and resources. Believe me, I´ve tried them all.

Also, key 3D software like MODO 501 and 3D MAX are not available for Linux. We have Blender indeed, but it´s a very complicated software. I´ve tried it, but it´s not as good as it´s windows mates.

Wine doesn´t work for all applications. I´ve tried it and have experienced lots of bugs, specially bugs related to graphic cars.

This thing is like a cycle. The major software companies don´t invest in Linux versions, because Linux users don´t represent a big parcel of their users. The users don´t use Linux because major software companies don´t make Linux versions for their key software, and it goes on and on...

[Peace of Mind]

I had a discussion about this the other day, I can’t tell you how much it means to me to see it being discuss here and other places. I see this as one of the only true ways to get where we want to be. This will take commitment, courage and collective planning. We will need to assist others that are totally assimilated into the corrupt system, open their eyes. No one can stop this from happening but us. We have to stop thinking about the ways we can be stopped and think of the many ways we can succeed, and apply them.

We have to put on the armor/ thick skin and face the ridicule of those blinded by the darkness. Share love and Love will guild you by way of tactics. All you have to do is trust and believe in your untapped strength…that will grow more powerful by the second.Trust that the universe/your higher self will assist you, they can’t help to make this happen if you don’t put in the effort. The universe/higher self always has giving you what you wanted…you’ve just been asking for a world of misery and failure due to generations of clever conditioning to accept being a slave.

We can sit behind our monitors talking about this and that, but change only comes though action. We have been Knocked Out for so long that our senses are just starting to come back us. True champions never stay down. They pick themselves up, dust off the grit and grime, display their heart for all to see and never make excuses for failure. They learn, become wiser, tougher and finish the fight. As of now…we are not even fighting, our spirits have been broken, most people seem to be cowering in the corner for various (understandable) reasons. But this fight must happen because the opponent is moving in for the kill. What you hold dear and think you’re protecting will be used against you tomorrow if you don’t put in the honest work today. Form a few think tanks. Attend seminars, rallies and protests and stop cheering for others that have the valor to do this…join in and become the change you speak of.

It’s a FACT that Nothing will ever get done unless you actually do something…we need to stop waiting on that miracle and realize that miracle is us. Disempowerment is real, the characteristics is most evident in those that seek help instead of being the help. You are what you think you are. The sad thing is most people don’t think too highly of themselves, so they become familiar to failure and see no hope. It’s not entirely their fault… not if they were trained since birth to believe that. Howerever, the slumber is finally over; your vision/senses are coming back online. Now stretch, yarn/take a deep breath and make it happen…we all have been waiting on you to pick yourself back up.

There isn’t a soul on this planet that hasn’t faced more severe conditions. Conception to birth will be the hardest task any of us Gods will ever have to face. The simple fact that you were 1 out of billions to make it here should inspire you to be what you came here to be…and that’s a winner....

Peace

[Ernie Nemeth]

I watch my daughter trudge off to work every day. She is slowly having her soul sucked out through her "need to make money to live". It is sad beyond words. She got sick two years ago, anxiety attacks. They gave her pills! Oh, I'd like to burst out with a string of expletives:@#$!^&*% (um, feel better). But I have taught my daughter all I know since she was a baby. She is aware, and awake.
She went to group therepy (you cannot heal on your own, and of course pills don't cure) and within a few months she was starting to feel better.
I recently helped her redo her resume. I was outraged at the fact that to even get on the interview list she had to use "key" words - that some businesses use computer programs to search cover letters for those key words. What a load of bunk. It makes me want to - oh ya I already did that.
I only have one resume in which I put anything at all I think may grab a companies attention, its full of lies. Because I know that once I get an interview - I'm getting the job. The resume means nothing at all. Luckily, in my trade, although more and more request resumes, resumes are not always required. When a business needs a talented worker they just put out an advert in the paper or post on internet - with a phone number. If I need a job, I call that number and I'm working the following day, period. But that is because of my level of confidence in my field.
Those who need experience do not have that confidence and companies take advantage of that.
My daughter has extreme confidence in almost all she does but she still feels the need to placate the ignorance of the personelle resource departments of most companies. For shame.
Really good thread. There are many issues involved. I don't have all the answers, wish I did.
Luckily together we do!

[woodshreder]

First of all many thanks to all who share in this thread .There are some incredibly intelligent and determined folks, right here, in this forum, that could co-create a working plan to bring this from an concept to a working system
After I posted this thread the wheels began to turn.
My thoughts !
If there was a Barter co-op of sorts started in your community that would get local buisnesses to allow those who choose to trade & barter for goods and services with barter credit that you could create by
1. trading a service for some goods, or
2. trading some goods for services
It could be a very simple grassroots idea in the begining to help people who have very little money (seniors,the unemployed, families struggling) by allowing them to complete a task of their choosing for barter credit with the co-op
and eventually start a Coalition of Trade and Barter..... city by city ,state by state , and eventually internationally
There could eventually be standardized guidlines for what the value of the barter credits are
Say I own a bakery, If you provide a service for my bakery That service is worth x amount of credits in which you can barter with me or another member of the co-op, in essence you dont have to be bartereing with every buisness in the co-op for goods or services you need , you can barter with someone, doing something you enjoy or you are good at .Your credits would accrue and you could use them for goods or services within the Co-op
Its just an idea now,, but with enough support and ideas who knows Your thoughts PEACE ALWAYS PEACE

[Seikou-Kishi]

This is all well and good, but how do you intend to eat in the time between stopping working and the system changing? How do you intend to pay your council tax and your utility bills? If you have enough money put away, utility bills and council taxes, etc., can be dealt with, and if you have a sufficiently large amount of land you can grow your own food.

I had drafted a lot of suggestions for people who want to avoid buying into the system, but I wanted to avoid drifting off focus on Woodshredder's thread, so I provide a link to those suggestions here:

Self-Sufficiency (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?31600-Self-sufficiency-for-you&p=321984#post321984)

[risveglio]

This is a no brainer. Unfortunately, we are the minority. Many will hate and attack you for writing these truths so be at the ready. It is just this simple. However, many will rationalize why we need to wait, hold off until or better yet accuse you of starting trouble. Far too many do not want to give up thier cushie lifestyles for the betterment of humanity and the world; but what fools these mortals be. We are where we are by consent of the many, refusing to stand up or speak up and do the right thing. I myself have choosen to be that which I wish to see in this world and sad to say feel very alone. However it is my choice and I love it as opposed to having bad company. It is this simple:

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.)
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers.
3. Stop going to work.
4. Stop sending our children to school.
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes.
7. Stop paying any and all debts.
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID.
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government.

These are just to kick start this peaceful revolution.

But how? At least 6 of these suggestions are just going to get you arrested in the US.

[risveglio]

Well, I´m 28 years old. As soon as I graduated, at 22, I got a job, at a Design Bureau. People there were very friendly, it was a nice work environment, and I´ve got promoted really fast, so I became Creative Director and got a pretty decent salary.

However, I started to get sick very often. I couldn´t stand the idea of having a boss, of selling my precious time on this planet for someone who was profiting millions over my creativity, and I couldn´t stand the fact that I was using my gifts to promote the work of all kinds of corporations.

Basically, my job was to create beautiful, astonishing costumes, to make wolves look like the most cute sheep.

I had two choices, then. Leave it or die. I swear to you I tried to get used to it, to look "normal", to be "normal", but I couldn´t. I really couldn´t.

You know, if there´s one thing I can say about becoming awaken and aware, is that there´s no turning back.

So I quit it, and today, I have my own Design Studio. All my employees work at home, and are free to do whatever they want with their time, as long as they meet the deadlines.

I don´t work for corporations anymore, in fact, I choose my clients, and that became a key point to my studio.

Whenever I get a meeting with some client, I ask everything about their company, and, in the end, I ask why they want me to design for them. If they can convince me, I get the job, if not, I don´t.

It´s kind of funny, because my work became some sort of rarity in the market and I was allowed to charge more for it.

But that´s not enough for me. I´m just making my reserves it and I´ll quit everything as soon as I can.

Cheers,

Raf.

Can a US citizen work for you remotely? :)

[RMorgan]

Can a US citizen work for you remotely? :)

Yes, for sure. I have partners all over the world! Drop me a PM and I´ll see what I can do with your skills. :)

[risveglio]

This thread reminds me of the Atlas Shrugged book, by Ayn Rand. Really good book, by the way, if you take off the idealistic capitalism stuff.

Ok, I should have responded as a multi quote but I was not expecting to respond too many times. I kind of like some of the idealistic capitalist stuff but I am still studying. I only started seeing the obvious a few years ago so I am still a toddler. I just happened to come across this today and kind of just shrugged it off, but feel obligated to share it now.
http://www.isil.org/ayn-rand/childs-open-letter.html

[RMorgan]

This thread reminds me of the Atlas Shrugged book, by Ayn Rand. Really good book, by the way, if you take off the idealistic capitalism stuff.

Ok, I should have responded as a multi quote but I was not expecting to respond too many times. I kind of like some of the idealistic capitalist stuff but I am still studying. I only started seeing the obvious a few years ago so I am still a toddler. I just happened to come across this today and kind of just shrugged it off, but feel obligated to share it now.
http://www.isil.org/ayn-rand/childs-open-letter.html

Thanks! This is a very complex letter, with a very complex subject. I´ll take my time to read and think about it, so we can discuss it in a few days, right? :)

Cheers,

Raf.

[risveglio]

This thread reminds me of the Atlas Shrugged book, by Ayn Rand. Really good book, by the way, if you take off the idealistic capitalism stuff.

Ok, I should have responded as a multi quote but I was not expecting to respond too many times. I kind of like some of the idealistic capitalist stuff but I am still studying. I only started seeing the obvious a few years ago so I am still a toddler. I just happened to come across this today and kind of just shrugged it off, but feel obligated to share it now.
http://www.isil.org/ayn-rand/childs-open-letter.html

Thanks! This is a very complex letter, with a very complex subject. I´ll take my time to read and think about it, so we can discuss it in a few days, right? :)

Cheers,

Raf.

I did not read the whole thing yet either, it was just too random not to share.

[aranuk]

Well, I´m 28 years old. As soon as I graduated, at 22, I got a job, at a Design Bureau. People there were very friendly, it was a nice work environment, and I´ve got promoted really fast, so I became Creative Director and got a pretty decent salary.

However, I started to get sick very often. I couldn´t stand the idea of having a boss, of selling my precious time on this planet for someone who was profiting millions over my creativity, and I couldn´t stand the fact that I was using my gifts to promote the work of all kinds of corporations.

Basically, my job was to create beautiful, astonishing costumes, to make wolves look like the most cute sheep.

I had two choices, then. Leave it or die. I swear to you I tried to get used to it, to look "normal", to be "normal", but I couldn´t. I really couldn´t.

You know, if there´s one thing I can say about becoming awaken and aware, is that there´s no turning back.

So I quit it, and today, I have my own Design Studio. All my employees work at home, and are free to do whatever they want with their time, as long as they meet the deadlines.

I don´t work for corporations anymore, in fact, I choose my clients, and that became a key point to my studio.

Whenever I get a meeting with some client, I ask everything about their company, and, in the end, I ask why they want me to design for them. If they can convince me, I get the job, if not, I don´t.

It´s kind of funny, because my work became some sort of rarity in the market and I was allowed to charge more for it.

But that´s not enough for me. I´m just making my reserves it and I´ll quit everything as soon as I can.

Cheers,

Raf.

A great story Raf! You are some man indeed!

Stan

[RMorgan]

A great story Raf! You are some man indeed!

Stan

Thanks my friend!! It´s not that hard and I think most of us can do this.

You know, if you´re unhappy for a reason, it´s your moral obligation to find out what´s standing between you and happiness and eliminated it from your life.

(I´m not talking about the sales man standing between you and a Ferrari. There´s no such thing as material happiness.)

Of course, there are consequences, but the consequences of being unhappy are much worse.

Life is short. None of us want to spend our lives working in something that makes him sick, with a boss that he hates and things like that. Some people can get used to that, but I can´t.

Having a boss is not natural for me. No one can force me to do something I don´t want to do, specially for money.

[sshenry]

Good thoughts - good thoughts - but hard to take to completion. Why? Because we are imbedded in the system up to are backsides and most of us don't even realize it.

How many of you brush your teeth with toothpaste? How many of you use toilet paper? How many of you have a box of band-aids and some anti-backterial cream in the bathroom cabinet in case you get injured? All of these things and more have their roots firmly in "the system."

There is something that everyone seems to forget - and that is that the products themselves are not at fault here. It is not a bad thing to have hot water or electricity or toilet paper or a high speed internet connection. It is the OVER CONSUMPTION of all of these things that is the problem, and that, my friends, is where it has to start.

As I believe it was mentioned in post #26, self-sufficiency is the key, and it is not something that can be accomplished just by switching operating systems or out and out quitting your job. It takes time and planning and dedication to a cause and needs to be taken one step at a time.

Re-wiring your house for solar power, having an artesian well installed, moving to a location where the government is not as intrusive (yes, there are still some of those areas in the US). These are all ways to start weaning yourself off the system, as is cutting down on the EXCESS of purchases; not renewing the cable, trading the SUV in for a hybrid, purchasing local produce, dairy and meats instead of brand name. There are a million and one ways to get yourself out from under the system's thumb without giving up your toilet paper and your hot water and other annemities. We don't have to feel guilty about them, simply be smart about how we get them and how we use them.

While there are a good number of things that would get you arrested in the US (like not registering your chidlren or not paying taxes or debts), there are ways around a good number of things, and the more you can pare out, the better off you'll be. For example, while you can't get out of paying your taxes (at least here) you CAN arrange your work so that there is not so much income to report. You can hold two - or three jobs (some online work never gets taxed and by using multiple payment methods and bank accounts you can minimize the attention you draw to yourself).

You might not be able to get out of paying your debts - but you CAN arrange things so that your debtors come to you offering you a 'deal'. This works especically well with revolving credit accounts - if you go a specific length of time with not paying your bills (or paying very little - and not the full amount each time) after a while most creditors will come to you with an offer to 'settle' your account for a significantly lower amount (if you check out the amount of the 'offer' it is usually the amount of the principal - minus all those finance charges they so like to tack on). Of course you have to have the amount that they ask for, and it plays havoc with your credit scores, but if you don't ever plan on using credit again, then it won't much matter, and it IS honest, because you DID purchase the initial items on credit, and paying for what you received does make a sort of ethical sense (even if they are blood sucking corporate entities).

But if you can adjust your income to multiple income streams and reduce your outstanding debt, set up a seperate bank account for all government or 'system' transactions (such as property taxes, city taxes, water, sewer and trash removal as well as house, car and health insurance) then you can reduce the amount of attention you draw to yourself.

[Lord Sidious]

This is a no brainer. Unfortunately, we are the minority. Many will hate and attack you for writing these truths so be at the ready. It is just this simple. However, many will rationalize why we need to wait, hold off until or better yet accuse you of starting trouble. Far too many do not want to give up thier cushie lifestyles for the betterment of humanity and the world; but what fools these mortals be. We are where we are by consent of the many, refusing to stand up or speak up and do the right thing. I myself have choosen to be that which I wish to see in this world and sad to say feel very alone. However it is my choice and I love it as opposed to having bad company. It is this simple:

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.)
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers.
3. Stop going to work.
4. Stop sending our children to school.
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes.
7. Stop paying any and all debts.
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID.
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government.

These are just to kick start this peaceful revolution.

But how? At least 6 of these suggestions are just going to get you arrested in the US.

This is a common assumption, based on the bluff and threats from various agencies.
These aren't as hard to get out of as you might think, you know.

[Hughe]

We spend 70% to 80% of the income for energy, food, and housing. House isn't essential technically. It's supplement.

Free energy will liberate any individuals from slavery living. That's all I can say. Help others to bring out free energy technologies if you can. Spread the idea as wild file so that one day it will be true. There are two dedicated threads about free energy. Check them out. More and more people need to say about it.

We need energy to survive, make our living comfortable, have fun, and manifest one's dream in reality.
It's all based on energy manipulation. You have access to free energy forever, what's impossible?

Free energy is real? Nicola Tesla demonstrated one of technologies almost 80 years ago. Entire globe is depend on Tesla's electrical power generation and distribution system. He knew what he would up to: new civilization that everyone live free. Right after that he had been silenced by the capitalists and U.S government. Only because if it would ever come out, capitalism was going to be destroyed. "We can't put meter on this device! Damn it."

[Muzz]

This is a no brainer. Unfortunately, we are the minority. Many will hate and attack you for writing these truths so be at the ready. It is just this simple. However, many will rationalize why we need to wait, hold off until or better yet accuse you of starting trouble. Far too many do not want to give up thier cushie lifestyles for the betterment of humanity and the world; but what fools these mortals be. We are where we are by consent of the many, refusing to stand up or speak up and do the right thing. I myself have choosen to be that which I wish to see in this world and sad to say feel very alone. However it is my choice and I love it as opposed to having bad company. It is this simple:

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.)
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers.
3. Stop going to work.
4. Stop sending our children to school.
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes.
7. Stop paying any and all debts.
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID.
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government.

These are just to kick start this peaceful revolution.

But how? At least 6 of these suggestions are just going to get you arrested in the US.

This is a common assumption, based on the bluff and threats from various agencies.
These aren't as hard to get out of as you might think, you know.

Have faith. Stand up to them.

Still waiting for my £1000 fine for not filling out the census. :)

[risveglio]

This is a no brainer. Unfortunately, we are the minority. Many will hate and attack you for writing these truths so be at the ready. It is just this simple. However, many will rationalize why we need to wait, hold off until or better yet accuse you of starting trouble. Far too many do not want to give up thier cushie lifestyles for the betterment of humanity and the world; but what fools these mortals be. We are where we are by consent of the many, refusing to stand up or speak up and do the right thing. I myself have choosen to be that which I wish to see in this world and sad to say feel very alone. However it is my choice and I love it as opposed to having bad company. It is this simple:

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.)
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers.
3. Stop going to work.
4. Stop sending our children to school.
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes.
7. Stop paying any and all debts.
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID.
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government.

These are just to kick start this peaceful revolution.

But how? At least 6 of these suggestions are just going to get you arrested in the US.

This is a common assumption, based on the bluff and threats from various agencies.
These aren't as hard to get out of as you might think, you know.

Have faith. Stand up to them.

Still waiting for my £1000 fine for not filling out the census. :)

See I do not think that is an option for me. Though I am ready to unplug, I have too many that are plugged in that rely on me. I know we need to get out of this system but I am not sure if it is better to go cold turkey or ween off. Not all drugs are the same.

[christian]

I'm all for a shift.

This doesn't mean stop working, but stop working for a criminal system. It means shifting the focus of one's work, to working for humanity.

But I think instead of crushing on the old system, better create something else to leave the old one powerless and disintegrating. During that progress of disintegration, we can use whatever we can find among the remnants of the old system, that would help us in the transition time. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[DevilPigeon]

Have faith. Stand up to them.

Still waiting for my £1000 fine for not filling out the census. :)

Yep, me too...! :)

[Lord Sidious]

So you nuggets gonna come to Dublin?

[Billy]

So you nuggets gonna come to Dublin?

Living in Scotland I have been invited to Ireland many many times this last 40yrs or so and never managed it yet. Every time i manage to save money to travel, i end up in India.The cost was the same, I thought, Wet and windy or sunny, colourful, swimming in the sea, ancient temples. The best veggie food.

I think my invite to Ireland is overdue now, A pint of Guiness, great music and some Craic with kindred souls sounds good.

I will try hard Ma Lord

[woodshreder]

I guess you could take my title as misleading chiquetet, but that was not or would ever be my intention to suggest we all just stop working totally. I agree with you about stop working for the criminal system Instead we each start doing our part to insure the needs of the inhabitants of this planet are met, including being our own self governing society. Casting out greed, evil and keeping each other in check, being ego free as humanly possible. Smooth transition is usually a big part of any change unless there is a plan afoot that makes the previous structure obsolete. Would that be wise ? I guess how worse can it be? I am not living under a rock and do realize that any change ,other than a gradual , community by community type experiment to see if a well planned and organized "Humanitarian Coalition of Trade and Barter" would be feasable and workable in todays world, probably only if we were ready and fed up as a society! Me Personally , Im far beyond fed up and ready ..........Peace Always Peace...........

[Muzz]

Sorry cant make it LS but would loved to have come along.

[woodshreder]

Thanks Lord Sidious A friend of mine has been trying to get me to come to Ireland for the last year or so .Their family is in Letterkenny, not sure where that is from Dublin but if I head that way Ill PM you for advise on directions to a good pub for starters...

[anklebiter]

A few years ago a question came into my mind, and this thread reminded me of it.

If 1-million US Citizens changed their payroll deductions so no State or Federal taxes came out all year (Exempt) and did not pay income tax at the end of the year - what would happen?

They could not arrest 1-million people, our prison systems are horribly overcrowded as it is. That would put more money into the pockets of the working people and less would go to the gubment.

What kind of impact this would have on the US Financial System is unknown, but sure would make a statement.

This goes along with the teachings of Gandhi - 'Peaceful, Non-Violent, Non-Cooperation'.

[PHARAOH]

This is a no brainer. Unfortunately, we are the minority. Many will hate and attack you for writing these truths so be at the ready. It is just this simple. However, many will rationalize why we need to wait, hold off until or better yet accuse you of starting trouble. Far too many do not want to give up thier cushie lifestyles for the betterment of humanity and the world; but what fools these mortals be. We are where we are by consent of the many, refusing to stand up or speak up and do the right thing. I myself have choosen to be that which I wish to see in this world and sad to say feel very alone. However it is my choice and I love it as opposed to having bad company. It is this simple:

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.)
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers.
3. Stop going to work.
4. Stop sending our children to school.
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes.
7. Stop paying any and all debts.
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID.
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government.

These are just to kick start this peaceful revolution.

But how? At least 6 of these suggestions are just going to get you arrested in the US.

Re-read # 9. Once they have no name, D.O.B and address to see whom to charge after arrest, they will realize you are costing them too much time and money as it will cost them way too much to figure out who the hell you are and just let you out the back door with a stiff warning to watch yourself. Either way you'll be free once again.

P.S "Don't co-operate after arrest". Do not allow figer print taking (Scrape fingertips on concrete). Do no allow photography. Do not asnwer any questions. Remember they need your co-operation to screw you.

[Charlie Pecos]

It's nice to see a thread that requires thought and genuine participation instead of the obligatory Doom And Gloom threads that have been so popular of late. Thank you everybody, keep up the good work! :)

[Ernie Nemeth]

I'm sort of surprised Lord Sidious doesn't let the cat out of the bag. Perhaps because this is a public forum? ummmm?

In any case, there is a way to do each of those points 1 - 9! And there are many who already have.
Hint: What do you think your birth certificate and the SEC have to do with each other?
And how do you think our governments borrow their huge piles of money?

Nuff said. Dublin sounds like a good place to be if ya wanna find out...

How's that for a plug?

[galilava]

For those of us who are afraid of not having nothing to live on if we stop cooperating -
just to remind, that this NON action should be applied only on the actual system in order to make it collapse. It does not mean that we shall stop producing goods and services, but that we shall not sell them for PROFIT. Profit is the main column of the recent system and it exactly makes it opposite to our human nature. It relays on and fuels the Ego, hens leads to separation and hens to suffering. Humans can only be truly happy living in the oneness.

Humans need to self express and to give - that makes them happy - so we should have never be put in a situation to hate working. Working is our human right and this system takes it away from us.

Profit and Ever increasing profit is needed for this system to survive. But I've always asked myself a simple question (may be stupid) - OK, if I am working to produce a sauce pan,
I am paid a fraction of the cost for that sauce pan and than I am expected to buy the same sauce pan for three times (You wish!) the money I've been paid to produce it?! Why ?How can this work at all!
Well, to be working, this model needs constant expansion, which is created by
convincing me that I need 10 pans instead of 1 (advertising), that I need the pan used by Whoever famous (branding), by finding people to produce it for less (banana republics) etc. - all sort of financial and economic instruments ...

All these options for ever increasing profit are limited - simply because the Earth is as big as it is. Off course there is always space out there in Space - and soon the ETs (fake or real) will provide them with new markets to expand. On Earth this system is condemned to exhaustion.

Bartering credits looks good to me as long as we don't start giving credit credits or start printing them...

And also, humans need to be willing to stop wishing to have MORE than the other humans - we have to resign from power - I believe we are able to...

[Lord Sidious]

I'm sort of surprised Lord Sidious doesn't let the cat out of the bag. Perhaps because this is a public forum? ummmm?

In any case, there is a way to do each of those points 1 - 9! And there are many who already have.
Hint: What do you think your birth certificate and the SEC have to do with each other?
And how do you think our governments borrow their huge piles of money?

Nuff said. Dublin sounds like a good place to be if ya wanna find out...

How's that for a plug?

Not sure which cat you mean?

[Charlie Pecos]

I'm sort of surprised Lord Sidious doesn't let the cat out of the bag. Perhaps because this is a public forum? ummmm?

In any case, there is a way to do each of those points 1 - 9! And there are many who already have.
Hint: What do you think your birth certificate and the SEC have to do with each other?
And how do you think our governments borrow their huge piles of money?

Nuff said. Dublin sounds like a good place to be if ya wanna find out...

How's that for a plug?

Not sure which cat you mean?

(He has several)

[Erich]

Nice idea but before you think that, spend the next week doing completely without the things we use/need in everyday life which people work to provide us. Switch off your electricity, dont flush the toilet, dont put your garbage out on the street for collection, no more water from the tap. No driving to the store, nothing. Let us know after one week how you got on, like I said, nice idea but......

After I moved away from the US and started a farm in another country I learned, over a process of about 6 years, that everything you mention in your post can be changed, modified, and even eliminated. It's hard to explain, Nairnia. You build different relationships to the things you mentioned. And perhaps more importantly, the key is to disconnect as much as you possibly can.

[Asyloth]

That's surely a good way to cut the feet of the beast, but the question is how do we organize ourselves to make it happen in mass? Cause if we just do it one after another, we'll only make some small cuts to the beast's feet and fall one after another crushed by that beast.

[Darla Ken Pearce]

This is truth but it's too late. The systems, financial and government are too far gone to matter now. They have truly fallen and can't get up. We are in need of something totally different based on real values. Real values lie in people and their capacity for creating and being free to do this writ large.

Since so many have lost homes, dreams, jobs, and occupations ~ we are ready now to make a quantum leap into a whole new vista that offers something in return for our labor. It also must work in our benefit instead of just the few elites and controllers. The old systems simply ran a great thing they had going into the ground. Period. End of story for these dark agendas. Their time has passed and is gone forever. This new way of living has become possible for us to build something completely new and different based on freedom and individual and collective sovereignty. Like it was always meant to be from the beginning before it got derailed.

I left the system in 1992 but no one was interested then in this particular manner in which to clog up the gears of state and control by not supporting it through taxes and all the rest. It is no longer necessary, as the system was brought down by it's own excesses and absolute GREED. A New Golden Age is possible and will be forthcoming. Think of what you want your world to look like rather than how it may appear ~ and we can manifest something bright and shinning again. First we IMAGINE and then manifest it. All things have become possible. No longer does darkness rule over us. And so it is....

[Charlie Pecos]

This is truth but it's too late. The systems, financial and government are too far gone to matter now. They have truly fallen and can't get up. We are in need of something totally different based on real values. Real values lie in people and their capacity for creating and being free to do this writ large.

Since so many have lost homes, dreams, jobs, and occupations ~ we are ready now to make a quantum leap into a whole new vista that offers something in return for our labor. It also must work in our benefit instead of just the few elites and controllers. The old systems simply ran a great thing they had going into the ground. Period. End of story for these dark agendas. Their time has passed and is gone forever. This new way of living has become possible for us to build something completely new and different based on freedom and individual and collective sovereignty. Like it was always meant to be from the beginning before it got derailed.

I left the system in 1992 but no one was interested then in this particular manner in which to clog up the gears of state and control by not supporting it through taxes and all the rest. It is no longer necessary, as the system was brought down by it's own excesses and absolute GREED. A New Golden Age is possible and will be forthcoming. Think of what you want your world to look like rather than how it may appear ~ and we can manifest something bright and shinning again. First we IMAGINE and then manifest it. All things have become possible. No longer does darkness rule over us. And so it is....

The thank you button is not enough! Well said Darla. :)

[woodshreder]

Thanks Darla ,much appreciated. I would like some clarification ,you state "This is truth but it's too late" and then go on to say
"we are ready now to make a quantum leap into a whole new vista that offers something in return for our labor. It also must work in our benefit instead of just the few elites and controllers. The old systems simply ran a great thing they had going into the ground. Period. End of story for these dark agendas. Their time has passed and is gone forever. This new way of living has become possible for us to build something completely new and different based on freedom and individual and collective sovereignty. Like it was always meant to be from the beginning before it got derailed."
With all do respect arent you contradicting yourself? And why is it in your opinion, To Late ? If you refer to post # 44 I give a hypothesis for a Trade and Barter system that could possibly work in small communitys as a sort of pilot program to help those in need now . I think all ideas have some validity but to just say "its too late" does not resonate with me . Your thoughts are appreciated . Peace Always Peace

[Omni connexae!]

Pretend reality doesn't exist.

and everything goes hopefully to plan.

what next?

would you like to make progresss...?

or was the last 100 years just trial and error for you?

..?

[Darla Ken Pearce]

Ten years ago, yes, there was time for these changes but now a quantum leap is coming forth. Earth is ascending. We are ascending out of this illusion and fear matrix now. We been going through these processes for 13 million years or so we are being told now. Earth changes and our own biology is radically and forever changing by the day. Each of us can feel it happening as time speeds up and Seasons come and go more quickly than ever experienced. We are going out of linear time and into new realms.

A shift in consciousness is present and increasing day-by-day and hour-by-hour. If you notice your friends and family, they are all changing, too. They are more responsive to love and wellbeing. More open to new ideas and so forth. It has taken a very long time but our time has finally arrived for these great changes to occur and nothing can stop them now. Each day more of our DNA strands are being activated. It's why we came to Earth and what's it's been about. Soon, you will have the ability to remember who you are...

Our DNA strands are being activated, all is changing. There is no time for this slow process as you imagine and are discussing here. And this is a great blessing at this point in time or out of it. One thing it's time to let go of are these old ideas based in duality. We are graduating and must look to how we desire things to be rather than what we think we see in the matrix. It's not real, we are real and moving out of these holograms of illusion right now if we choose to do so. We make this choice as we choose how we think about what is happening around us. Imagine happy results and they manifest nearly instantly in comparison to the decades and longer prior to this specific time. Imagine negative and it hits you upside the head. Not recommended! We are finally in conscious control of our destiny.

[Omni connexae!]

Ten years ago, yes, there was time for these changes but now a quantum leap is coming forth. Earth is ascending. We are ascending out of this illusion and fear matrix now. We been going through these processes for 13 million years or so we are being told now. Earth changes and our own biology is radically and forever changing by the day. Each of us can feel it happening as time speeds up and Seasons come and go more quickly than ever experienced. We are going out of linear time and into new realms. A shift in consciousness is present and increasing day-by-day and hour-by-hour. If you notice your friends and family, they are all changing, too. They are more responsive to love and wellbeing. More open to new ideas and so forth. It has taken a very long time but our time has finally arrive for these great changes to occur and nothing can stop them now. Each day more of our DNA strands are being activated. It's why we came to Earth and what's it's been about. Soon, you will have the ability to remember who you are...

Our DNA strands are being activated, all is changing. There is no time for this slow process as your imagine. And this is a great blessing at this point in time or out of it.

...Gonna imagine your right, and I'm wrong.

Can you please try to explain how you know this?

[Darla Ken Pearce]

Sure. I've been posting updates on Avalon that are available for your own discernment in the Spirituality forum. Most I know from personal observations and experience. I have my own bell weathers all over and watch them closely and by this I mean my family, friends, networks, and animals who share my life and there are many of them. It's also something we can ask your guides. Each of us ~ well, we did not come to Earth alone, we were accompanied by Angels and guides. If you haven't yet met yours it will sound silly or unbelievable. I've had an opportunity to meet mine. If you are not able to believe it, it's okay. You will meet yours soon enough if you're open to it ~ as our consciousness rises we can sense, see and feel these others. They are here to assist us. They are parts of ourselves or so I believe. Maybe our future selves, or close to it.

We are not talking about right and wrong here ~ those concepts are a large part of duality and thinking polar opposites. We are leaving those illusions behind now if we wish. We came with duality looming large with good/evil, black/white and now we've created rainbows and new vistas to explore and create within. Those who get caught up in the negativity of what "seems" and "appears" to be happening in the matrix can become so fixated they are afraid to leave it. This would not be a good thing IMHO but I don't get to pick for anyone but myself and how we choose is through our thoughts and it requires quantum leaps to get out of the fear matrix.

So instead, don't think about right/wrong or duality but leave your options open to new ideas. This is important because before this year is out more technology improvements than we can fully absorb even to imagine will happen and it will be a great shock ~ to all of us. Fabulous beyond belief and so wonderful ~ more than you can possible imagine right now. If we continue to talk small about the changes that used to fit or seem possible as end results to try ~ is not really helpful. We must gear up our imaginations and prepare for quantum leaps! Countdown three months or less.

And we can't possibly imagine the leaps forward we are about to take according to those guides of ours who know and these are the higher realms of our own celestial beings and those who have come to assist Earth in ascension. Ask to remember but be very prepared to make some absolute leaps in technology that changes everything you now perceive.

There are only a few months left before this all comes about. This is why I say, it's too late to go back there now. Duality ends. Right and wrong ends and creativity begins anew and fresh without 3D limits. We are coming out of the matrix now and nothing can stop us. Be open to change. A wonderful world beyond your imagination unfolds now upon all of us. Surrender your old ideas quickly and move forward into a new day.

[jcocks]

You're right. I know you are. But the changes may be a little more gradual than we'd have hoped for... But still, that is to make sure as many as possible can make the leap.... Small steps, and not too much for the bulk of society to handle...

[mosquito]

A subject dear to my heart.
As I've said in other threads, I've attempted to get out of the system many times, only to get thrown straight back in again ! Money, or rather economic need, has always been the thing that's got me unstuck.
In 2006 I actually did 3 of the things on Pharaoh's list (not telling you which ones !) and quit the UK for good. The place I chose to go was Peru, which I soon discovered to be THE embodiment of a poverty consciousness. It was a great lesson fo me, as the place I lived was at the very back of the so-called rat race, and was like a black hole, sucking people out of their lives in the jungle with promises of a better life in the city. Capitalism is at work there bif time, conning people into thinking they need mobile phones even though they never have money to put on them; convincing people without jobs that it's really ok to take out a loan to buy a TV. etc. etc.
Anyway, when I quit the UK I gave away or threw away all of my possessions except for the contents of 2 suitcases, deciding that I didn't really need any of it. I'm happy to give up most things, just not toilet paper, decent razor blades and anything else related to hygiene. Cut throat razors are still available, there are companies in Germany who produce good quality ones.
I'm no longer in Peru but I haven't gone back into "the system". There is a different system here and, although far from perfect, it allows me far more freedom than I ever had in Britain. I don't pay any personal tax, my bank account is simply a repository for my savings, (cash is still king here), I have no credit cards, I pay no bills and the government dosn't hassle me in any way at all. Being a foreigner I obviously have to interact with them on some level, but it's very very basic stuff and they're totally unintrusive. My work gives me the wonderful opportunity of touching 1600 young lives per week, for which I'm truly grateful.
I'd love to believe that enough people in the UK and USA would just stop paying up, but fear holds a lot of people back while the vast majority just believe their lifestyle is normal and right, and that there's no alternative. Wouldn't it be nice to find a vast island somewhere, where all like-minded people could go and live in the way we know to be wholesome....? Sigh ;)

[Davidallany]

Nice idea but before you think that, spend the next week doing completely without the things we use/need in everyday life which people work to provide us. Switch off your electricity, dont flush the toilet, dont put your garbage out on the street for collection, no more water from the tap. No driving to the store, nothing. Let us know after one week how you got on, like I said, nice idea but......

Hi,

You are correct, but besides stating the obvious, any suggestions for an alternative way though? I am asking because I haven't one yet. Thank you.

[Davidallany]

Sure. I've been posting updates on Avalon that are available for your own discernment in the Spirituality forum. Most I know from personal observations and experience
Thank you so much Darla, I and many other Avalonian brothers and sisters do highly appreciate your experiences. I would much rather listen to your experiences than to a text book, TV or Mr. Obama.

[Davidallany]

After I moved away from the US and started a farm in another country
It is the goal of the banking system to spread everywhere and put everyone as an equity in the stock exchange market, just like they do in America and Europe.

[woodshreder]

Nice idea but before you think that, spend the next week doing completely without the things we use/need in everyday life which people work to provide us. Switch off your electricity, dont flush the toilet, dont put your garbage out on the street for collection, no more water from the tap. No driving to the store, nothing. Let us know after one week how you got on, like I said, nice idea but......

Hi,

You are correct, but besides stating the obvious, any suggestions for an alternative way though? I am asking because I haven't one yet. Thank you.
Nairnia Have you ever been camping? The things you are concerned with are very simple to remedy .
I would have absolutly no problem giving up the so-called comforts of home for the good of my fellow man and host planet
1. electricty off Use a solar shower ,start a fire to cook and heat water as needed,lanterns for light
2. Shovels and maple leaves work quite well in place of a toilet
3.Composting is a great way to recycle and you can bury all things that will decompose,recycle things that dont and for the rest burn it with your fire while your cooking a delicious meal under the stars.
4. My well has the ability to be pumped by hand so no elec no prob Or pack it in from the nearest water source
5. Have a nice Mtn bike to ride to the store or just walk its healthy
WEEK ONE WAS A BREEZE

[Davidallany]

Nairnia Have you ever been camping? The things you are concerned with are very simple to remedy .
I would have absolutly no problem giving up the so-called comforts of home for the good of my fellow man and host planet
1. electricty off Use a solar shower ,start a fire to cook and heat water as needed,lanterns for light
2. Shovels and maple leaves work quite well in place of a toilet
3.Composting is a great way to recycle and you can bury all things that will decompose,recycle things that dont and for the rest burn it with your fire while your cooking a delicious meal under the stars.
4. My well has the ability to be pumped by hand so no elec no prob Or pack it in from the nearest water source
5. Have a nice Mtn bike to ride to the store or just walk its healthy
I did most of that for 3 years in a refugee camp under appalling conditions and no available services whatsoever, some doctors volunteered to treat the sick, just because they wanted to make a difference and they like doing so.
For light, cooking and heating there was fire, for water there was a fresh river, for food there were trees with fruits and nuts, like walnuts and plenty of fish. for washroom we dug holes and used water to clean, we ate, slept and gathered in tents. The only thing is tooth care, with the absence of tooth brushes and paste, since there was no services, one has to pay very good attention to cleaning teeth.

[NeverMind]

Have you ever been camping? The things you are concerned with are very simple to remedy .
I would have absolutly no problem giving up the so-called comforts of home for the good of my fellow man and host planet
1. electricty off Use a solar shower ,start a fire to cook and heat water as needed,lanterns for light
2. Shovels and maple leaves work quite well in place of a toilet
3.Composting is a great way to recycle and you can bury all things that will decompose,recycle things that dont and for the rest burn it with your fire while your cooking a delicious meal under the stars.
4. My well has the ability to be pumped by hand so no elec no prob Or pack it in from the nearest water source
5. Have a nice Mtn bike to ride to the store or just walk its healthy
WEEK ONE WAS A BREEZE

But what do you do in winter time?
I mean, proper winter, with snow and sub-zero temperatures.

EDIT: Oh, I see. You weren't actually suggesting camping. Sorry, hasty reading.


The only thing is tooth care, with the absence of tooth brushes and paste, since there was no services, one has to pay very good attention to cleaning teeth.

As long as you have salt and/or baking soda and/or hydrogen peroxide, that's easily solved.
They work better than any tooth paste.
(I should know - I only use those.)

[Billy]

Nairnia Have you ever been camping? The things you are concerned with are very simple to remedy .
I would have absolutly no problem giving up the so-called comforts of home for the good of my fellow man and host planet
1. electricty off Use a solar shower ,start a fire to cook and heat water as needed,lanterns for light
2. Shovels and maple leaves work quite well in place of a toilet
3.Composting is a great way to recycle and you can bury all things that will decompose,recycle things that dont and for the rest burn it with your fire while your cooking a delicious meal under the stars.
4. My well has the ability to be pumped by hand so no elec no prob Or pack it in from the nearest water source
5. Have a nice Mtn bike to ride to the store or just walk its healthy
I did most of that for 3 years in a refugee camp under appalling conditions and no available services whatsoever, some doctors volunteered to treat the sick, just because they wanted to make a difference and they like doing so.
For light, cooking and heating there was fire, for water there was a fresh river, for food there were trees with fruits and nuts, like walnuts and plenty of fish. for washroom we dug holes and used water to clean, we ate, slept and gathered in tents. The only thing is tooth care, with the absence of tooth brushes and paste, since there was no services, one has to pay very good attention to cleaning teeth.

You were better off not using toothpaste David, toothpaste causes more damage to teeth than it does good. In India they use a small twig of a cetain tree to clean their teeth, chewing the end then rubbing it into their teeth, They have amazingly sparkling white healthy teeth.

[Lord Sidious]

After I moved away from the US and started a farm in another country
It is the goal of the banking system to spread everywhere and put everyone as an equity in the stock exchange market, just like they do in America and Europe.

And this is the REAL reason that ''they'' bring refugees into the western nations.
They don't give a stuff about their own people, why would they care about others?
Unless they are human collateral.

[Bollinger]

I have for many years been opposed to working a traditional job and having a major portion of my earnings taken from me and spent on things I have absolutley no say in
In essence "Feeding the Beast" In this system "WE" have allowed ourselves to be fooled beyond belief . Our own ignorance and gulibility has caused a countless amount of death, destruction ,famine, starvation and suffering to this planet and its inhabitants.
Would we be better off if everyone just stoped working, stop paying everything .Let the monetary system totally crash Put the brakes on all this illegal currency and the spending of it, stop being prisoners of their system and create our own humaintarian bartering system for whats needed to get by on, even if it meant we have nothing but ourselves and our fellow man in which to rely, rise from the depths, and finally create a self suffcient utopia and healed planet . Isnt it time to say STOP THIS MADNESS?... We are not slaves, we need to stop acting like we are... and then they just might get the message "Free at last"
What are your thoughts?

If you are talking to participants on Avalon, I'm sure they'll all hear and agree with you. If you're talking to the world, they won't. A few drops of lemon in the milk we produce and feed the elite, will not make any difference.

The game is rigged in such a way that, (just like in those gory Saw films) in order to save yourself you have to lose an eye, or an arm or a leg. We weren't put into this position in a few easy steps. It is the culmination of thousands of years of purposeful control and elitist ideas that have brought us here. If 1000 people did as you ask, nothing would happen. If 10,000 did as you ask still nothing would happen. If a million did as you ask, even that is no where near enough to make any real difference. The changes have to be at continent level to tip the balance and that is not going to happen because the mass media will nip it at the bud.

We are drugged, manipulated, mind controlled and made to work till we physically can't any more. Yes, there are those who have a little more than people immediately below them in the class structure; yes it is possible to be "rich" without necessarily being a part of the elite or even knowing anything sinister even exists, but these people are necessary for the billions beneath them to aspire to something. It is like the ever-hopeful millions who play the lottery every week knowing that there is next to no chance of winning anything substantial and yet they continue. Only the fact that it is "possible" will keep people beavering on. The advertisers keep telling us that we have to be "in it to win it". Yes we surely are "in it" alright!

The only way out of this mess, as some people have suggested, is a short cut to free energy. Mainstream science keeps telling us it is not possible and yet we keep hearing to the contrary from numerous independent and credible sources.

Do you know what really saddens me? It is the knowledge that billions have lived and died on this earth without seeing any kind of end to the tyranny. By all accounts, we ourselves will probably go the same way. And yet here we are; all the more in pain for knowing that our fate is perpetrated purposefully and knowingly by greedy elitist megalomaniacs who climax on control and are at the helm of a ship that is surely heading for the falls.

One way or the other, whether they know it or not, the elitist will fall but when and at what price? That is the real question to which no one seems to know the answer.

[Lord Sidious]

The only way out of this mess is to bring balance to our internal worlds.
Once that happens, the external world will become balanced as well.

[Eric J (Viking)]

I have for many years been opposed to working a traditional job and having a major portion of my earnings taken from me and spent on things I have absolutley no say in
In essence "Feeding the Beast" In this system "WE" have allowed ourselves to be fooled beyond belief . Our own ignorance and gulibility has caused a countless amount of death, destruction ,famine, starvation and suffering to this planet and its inhabitants.
Would we be better off if everyone just stoped working, stop paying everything .Let the monetary system totally crash Put the brakes on all this illegal currency and the spending of it, stop being prisoners of their system and create our own humaintarian bartering system for whats needed to get by on, even if it meant we have nothing but ourselves and our fellow man in which to rely, rise from the depths, and finally create a self suffcient utopia and healed planet . Isnt it time to say STOP THIS MADNESS?... We are not slaves, we need to stop acting like we are... and then they just might get the message "Free at last"
What are your thoughts?

If you are talking to participants on Avalon, I'm sure they'll all hear and agree with you. If you're talking to the world, they won't. A few drops of lemon in the milk we produce and feed the elite, will not make any difference.

The game is rigged in such a way that, (just like in those gory Saw films) in order to save yourself you have to lose an eye, or an arm or a leg. We weren't put into this position in a few easy steps. It is the culmination of thousands of years of purposeful control and elitist ideas that have brought us here. If 1000 people did as you ask, nothing would happen. If 10,000 did as you ask still nothing would happen. If a million did as you ask, even that is no where near enough to make any real difference. The changes have to be at continent level to tip the balance and that is not going to happen because the mass media will nip it at the bud.

We are drugged, manipulated, mind controlled and made to work till we physically can't any more. Yes, there are those who have a little more than people immediately below them in the class structure; yes it is possible to be "rich" without necessarily being a part of the elite or even knowing anything sinister even exists, but these people are necessary for the billions beneath them to aspire to something. It is like the ever-hopeful millions who play the lottery every week knowing that there is next to no chance of winning anything substantial and yet they continue. Only the fact that it is "possible" will keep people beavering on. The advertisers keep telling us that we have to be "in it to win it". Yes we surely are "in it" alright!

The only way out of this mess, as some people have suggested, is a short cut to free energy. Mainstream science keeps telling us it is not possible and yet we keep hearing to the contrary from numerous independent and credible sources.

Do you know what really saddens me? It is the knowledge that billions have lived and died on this earth without seeing any kind of end to the tyranny. By all accounts, we ourselves will probably go the same way. And yet here we are; all the more in pain for knowing that our fate is perpetrated purposefully and knowingly by greedy elitist megalomaniacs who climax on control and are at the helm of a ship that is surely heading for the falls.

One way or the other, whether they know it or not, the elitist will fall but when and at what price? That is the real question to which no one seems to know the answer.

Hi Bolly

You are right to a certain extent...But I do believe that more folk are waking up from this 'stupor' ...

But yes I know how you feel with regard to this mass suppression of humanity , boy have they got a lot to answer to!!

I don't know what it is, but I feel that these past few days we have had a sudden change in the reality we want to create... I feel the veil is lifting and things are becomming easier!!

viking

[noxon medem]

.....


why not just
- start off working differently ,
and it will allready have changed ...

.....

:fish2:

[galilava]

Free energy - coming soon:cool:


http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3124295.ece

[Davidallany]

Living in Scotland I have been invited to Ireland many many times this last 40yrs or so and never managed it yet. Every time i manage to save money to travel, i end up in India.The cost was the same, I thought, Wet and windy or sunny, colourful, swimming in the sea, ancient temples. The best veggie food.

I think my invite to Ireland is overdue now, A pint of Guiness, great music and some Craic with kindred souls sounds good

Ireland is a magical place to me, especially the pubs, I suspect it will be the first place to visit. It's also awesome because I love the rain and can't get enough of it since I grew up in a semi-desert area. I also have this fond of Irish people in Canada, they have been the best, all of the ones I've met.

[Davidallany]

And this is the REAL reason that ''they'' bring refugees into the western nations.
They don't give a stuff about their own people, why would they care about others?Unless they are human collateral

It's very true my Lord.

[Nairnia]

Nairnia Have you ever been camping? The things you are concerned with are very simple to remedy .
I would have absolutly no problem giving up the so-called comforts of home for the good of my fellow man and host planet
1. electricty off Use a solar shower ,start a fire to cook and heat water as needed,lanterns for light
2. Shovels and maple leaves work quite well in place of a toilet
3.Composting is a great way to recycle and you can bury all things that will decompose,recycle things that dont and for the rest burn it with your fire while your cooking a delicious meal under the stars.
4. My well has the ability to be pumped by hand so no elec no prob Or pack it in from the nearest water source
5. Have a nice Mtn bike to ride to the store or just walk its healthy
WEEK ONE WAS A BREEZE

Yes I have and after a week of it was bloody glad to be in my own bed!
Fair point, but why arnt you doing it now? Perhaps the draw of home comforts is too strong for you too!

[Nairnia]

As long as you have salt and/or baking soda and/or hydrogen peroxide, that's easily solved.
They work better than any tooth paste.
(I should know - I only use those.)

Thats fine if you live near the sea for salt but where would you get baking soda and hydrogen peroxide?

[Erich]

The monetary system is very powerful here as well and they will succeed if something huge doesn't happen. I haven't escaped completely, but only changed the circumstances more in my favor which helped me develop other areas I would never have developed if I had lived in the states. I'd much rather see Darla's ideas manifest. It's tiring to avoid from within the oppressive system they created. But I gained much by leaving. I have learned from the locals how to survive without any infrastructure or help from outside of the village or family. I know how to grow, catch and store food, build fires, collect plants, and prepare water. I am by no means a survivalist, but basic survival is common knowledge here. They even teach children in school how to garden and farm. I have no insurances, rents, licenses, or permits for anything nor do I need them. My name is on nothing. My signature nowhere. I cold go on and on, but I think you have the idea.

[galilava]

I also know that
Andrea Rossi
(see link above - http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3124295.ece))
was planning to open a plant for mass production of E-cats in Greece..
Does anybody know anything about that?
I wonder if the recent "bad fortune" of Greece may have something to do with its daring to encourage free energy....

P.S.
This is not a free energy thread but I also thing like some of you that free energy is the most important key for disconnecting from the system. Once this happens - everybody will be free to make choice with no major sacrifices.

[Davidallany]

Ok, I should have responded as a multi quote but I was not expecting to respond too many times. I kind of like some of the idealistic capitalist stuff but I am still studying. I only started seeing the obvious a few years ago so I am still a toddler. I just happened to come across this today and kind of just shrugged it off, but feel obligated to share it now.
http://www.isil.org/ayn-rand/childs-open-letter.html
Thank you, risvegleo, it's a good letter with solid reasoning, my favorite part was
it is the existence of the state itself which must be challenged by the new radicals. It must be understood that the state is an unnecessary evil, that it regularly initiates force, and in fact attempts to gain what must rationally be called a monopoly of crime in a given territory. Hence, government is little more, and has never been more, than a gang of professional criminals. If, then, government has been the most tangible cause of most of man's inhumanity to man, let us, as Morris Tannehill has said, "identify it for what it is instead of attempting to clean it up, thus helping the statists to keep it by preventing the idea that government is inherently evil from becoming known.... The 'sacred cow' regard for government (which most people have) must be broken!

[Bollinger]

The only way out of this mess is to bring balance to our internal worlds.
Once that happens, the external world will become balanced as well.

Yes, balance is a good word and the sentiment behind your statement is well understood. It strikes me though that with the best will in the world, even if we were allowed to find this balance individually and collectively, the learning curve is so steep as to be virtually impossible for all to achieve and I include myself in that statistic.

People need real change, not the one politicians refer to, but actual improvement in their daily lives. They need their basic needs to be fulfilled for free. We're not even talking about luxuries but just basic needs such as clothing, clean running water and proper shelter. Then, it is conceivable that the resources can be multiplied and brought to the masses at little or no cost to them without the greed-driven mindset that normally drives such initiatives.

It's the old chicken and egg situation. How does one persuade people to think about spirituality on an empty stomach living in filthy conditions under the constant threat of death and disease? I live in the hope that, perhaps in my own lifetime, this veil of tyranny will be lifted and our real nature will emerge. As it is, we are always competing, trying to beat the next person to that job, to that bargain, to that tiny morsel that the elite have delight in scattering around just to see how the poor helpless souls fight over it.

I am sure we all want an end to all of that sooner rather than later.

[Davidallany]

Yes, balance is a good word and the sentiment behind your statement is well understood. It strikes me though that with the best will in the world, even if we were allowed to find this balance individually and collectively, the learning curve is so steep as to be virtually impossible for all to achieve and I include myself in that statistic.

As long as on acts from the so called heart, out of concern for others, love, then one can effortlessly do what is believed to be impossible.

[Bollinger]

Yes, balance is a good word and the sentiment behind your statement is well understood. It strikes me though that with the best will in the world, even if we were allowed to find this balance individually and collectively, the learning curve is so steep as to be virtually impossible for all to achieve and I include myself in that statistic.

As long as on acts from the so called heart, out of concern for others, love, then one can effortlessly do what is believed to be impossible.

Of course I understand that and if one could control it, I dare say none of us would have it any other way. But we do not control the quantity of love others are willing to impart because love is left to our free will to distribute as we feel or see fit. If someone is beating you over the head with a stick, despite your best efforts to talk him into stopping, Mr love soon takes its leave and hands control over to survival to do whatever is necessary to save life and limb!

That is exactly the mode in which humanity finds itself. We are all in survival mode because of the constant threat, the stress, and the endless tedium that accompanies the regimental lifestyle most of us lead without any realistic hope of escape. The only "escape" out of this madness is to exit the survival mode and enter the mode of peace, tranquility and love.

If there was some miraculous change of "policy" at the top and the controllers decided they were going to let humanity have a significant portion of the huge cake that they don't even know what to do with any more, you will see how quickly that "love" will replace the dog-eat-dog atmosphere that is so thick in our world you can cut it with a knife.

[Lord Sidious]

The only way out of this mess is to bring balance to our internal worlds.
Once that happens, the external world will become balanced as well.

Yes, balance is a good word and the sentiment behind your statement is well understood. It strikes me though that with the best will in the world, even if we were allowed to find this balance individually and collectively, the learning curve is so steep as to be virtually impossible for all to achieve and I include myself in that statistic.

People need real change, not the one politicians refer to, but actual improvement in their daily lives. They need their basic needs to be fulfilled for free. We're not even talking about luxuries but just basic needs such as clothing, clean running water and proper shelter. Then, it is conceivable that the resources can be multiplied and brought to the masses at little or no cost to them without the greed-driven mindset that normally drives such initiatives.

It's the old chicken and egg situation. How does one persuade people to think about spirituality on an empty stomach living in filthy conditions under the constant threat of death and disease? I live in the hope that, perhaps in my own lifetime, this veil of tyranny will be lifted and our real nature will emerge. As it is, we are always competing, trying to beat the next person to that job, to that bargain, to that tiny morsel that the elite have delight in scattering around just to see how the poor helpless souls fight over it.

I am sure we all want an end to all of that sooner rather than later.

Not being a guru, I can't advise you on an answer, I only know what I am doing.
I can see that others are working on their own stuff in different ways too.
We will all get there, some of us were sent here to help.
Not just me, there are many more.

[Arrowwind]

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.)
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers.
3. Stop going to work.
4. Stop sending our children to school.
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes.
7. Stop paying any and all debts.
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID.
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government.

These are just to kick start this peaceful revolution.

This simple eh?
No dont register your children. Make them a total non-entity in the eyes of society. Make it so they can't go to shcool. cant have any choice in society... cant socialize with other children... Cant even find their parents if they get lost... cant get medical help if they need it, but heck, guess they do give medical help to illegal aliens. Anyway if it came to that they would likely take them away from you anyway so that they can have a structured environment until you get your head together.
what are you going to do when you get pulled over and you have no drivers license or insurance? you know you will end up in jail.
when you are in jail who will care for your kids? or perhaps your ill wife? or perhaps your elderly mother? or perhaps your chickens and goats?
what are you going to do when your wife has to deliver in a hospital because she needs emergency medical help?..although I myself was a homebirth midwife I myself needed two c-sections. Fortunatley we had insurance so I did not put my burden on the backs of the public, for that is what would have happened for they don't let mothers die due to lack of ability to pay.
How are you going to educate your children? will you have time when you are scraping to make a living?
What are the kids going to do when they haul you in for tax evasion? a foster home? live with your weak and feeble grandma?
what are you going to to when you want to purchase property but have no cash because you have not worked in a job
that pays a decent wage because you didn't want to pay taxes?
How can you live with yourself if you don't pay your debts? That is akin to thievery. You are stealing from someone else
if you have a debt it is because you agreed to terms on a loan. Where is your honesty and integrity? Why should someone else pay your debt?... some one like me? who is forced into higher rates due to your thievery?
How can you model thievery to your children?
Have no ID? forget that cell phone, forget that land line. Forget any connection to the system at all.
Forget educating your self in any profitable skill without an ID, you wont get into a college or a trade school.
You will not be able to set up a small business, but I guess you could grow pot for a while. until you get busted anyway.
You wont even get into highschool.
No don't keep your money in banks. Keep it under your mattress, if you can figure out how to pay rent to to keep a room to put a mattress in.
But don't worry, It wont be long before you have no money to put under a mattress anyway.
You could go live in a hippy commune for a while, if you can still find one, at least until they get fed up with your theivery.
or go live under a bridge

Yes, I can see how this is a path to sustainability in the USA... or UK.. or most nations in the world.

[Lord Sidious]

I know people who travelled in America with no form of ''license'' at all.
And they consistently managed to walk away.
There are many things you can do, if you know how.
Dean Clifford is doing it right now in soviet canuckistan.

[Davidallany]

If someone is beating you over the head with a stick, despite your best efforts to talk him into stopping, Mr love soon takes its leave and hands control over to survival to do whatever is necessary to save life and limb!

Love and avoiding harm do not oppose each other. There is no need to hate a falling rock that strikes the head, what if the rock has intentionally targeted you, what if it did not? Its all perception. Sometimes one sees a snake in the dark and fear with anger arises, then one realizes that it's just an old broken rope, but we created a scenario where it's a venomous snake, bent over on harming us.
If someone attacks then that's their business, we still love them while guarding our abode. My brother has gone mad and now he attacks me, I will avoid harm, I won't stop loving him and I will not think of retaliation, same thing with my mom, dad, sister. Since all people are related then i should and actually do have the same reaction with far relatives as my reaction with my near relatives.

[Davidallany]

No dont register your children. Make them a total non-entity in the eyes of society. Make it so they can't go to shcool. cant have any choice in society... cant socialize with other children... Cant even find their parents if they get lost... cant get medical help if they need it, but heck, guess they do give medical help to illegal aliens. Anyway if it came to that they would likely take them away from you anyway so that they can have a structured environment until you get your head together.
what are you going to do when you get pulled over and you have no drivers license or insurance? you know you will end up in jail.
when you are in jail who will care for your kids? or perhaps your ill wife? or perhaps your elderly mother? or perhaps your chickens and goats?
what are you going to do when your wife has to deliver in a hospital because she needs emergency medical help?..although I myself was a homebirth midwife I myself needed two c-sections. Fortunatley we had insurance so I did not put my burden on the backs of the public, for that is what would have happened for they don't let mothers die due to lack of ability to pay.
How are you going to educate your children? will you have time when you are scraping to make a living?
What are the kids going to do when they haul you in for tax evasion? a foster home? live with your weak and feeble grandma?
Since the whole problem revolves around wife needing hospital when giving birth and concern for children's well being, then the simple solution is not to have children.

[Davidallany]

Not being a guru, I can't advise you on an answer, I only know what I am doing.
I can see that others are working on their own stuff in different ways too.
We will all get there, some of us were sent here to help. Not just me there are many more

My Lord, the force is strong with you. From the lighting and the tempest emperor deliver us.

[mosquito]

The monetary system is very powerful here as well and they will succeed if something huge doesn't happen. I haven't escaped completely, but only changed the circumstances more in my favor which helped me develop other areas I would never have developed if I had lived in the states. I'd much rather see Darla's ideas manifest. It's tiring to avoid from within the oppressive system they created. But I gained much by leaving. I have learned from the locals how to survive without any infrastructure or help from outside of the village or family. I know how to grow, catch and store food, build fires, collect plants, and prepare water. I am by no means a survivalist, but basic survival is common knowledge here. They even teach children in school how to garden and farm. I have no insurances, rents, licenses, or permits for anything nor do I need them. My name is on nothing. My signature nowhere. I cold go on and on, but I think you have the idea.

Erich - Where are you ???

[Solstice]

In a purely Ayne Rand sort of way this makes sense.do we pay farmers overtime?

[woodshreder]

If I were a parent of a young child today ( I am my sons father and my grandsons grandpa) I would in no way subject my child to public schools and the indoctrnation they have to offer. I would much rather home school my child and encourage as much social after school programs that they needed so they wouldnt miss out on anything . As far as inaugulations are concerend, Havent we concluded most of the crap they insist we shoot up our children with cause life long conditions like autisum, just to name one.You want to poison your child who has no say thats something you would have to live with. And if people think with all the overcrowding in our incarceration system your going to be hauled off to jail for driving witthout a license they arent paying attention to that situation. Plus If the corrupt monetary system thats been forced down our throat is completley dismanteled, your debts would disappear. If you think for one minute their GAME has been played fair and equitably Then you have yet to awaken yourself
This is and idea to remove they old paradigm, Not for those trying to put down , belittle and ridicule us who know there is a better way of life ...PERIOD Peace Always Peace

[toothpick]

Woodshreder, hi, I couldn,t agree more with your remarks.
My wife and I have discussed are childrens schooling over the years many times.
We both agree now, (of couse hind sight being 20/20) that either one of us would have, ( should have) quit our job and home schooled our children.
The money we would have saved would have been substantcial and it would have been glorous to be at home everyday with our 3 kids.

I agree with most members that i,d like to see the system brought down ,but how is the best way, that, is the question for me.
everyone stops working sounds really promising but i,m afraid that you,d never get enough serious people to hold the line, so to speak.
People are partial to thier running water and other amenitys, and i don,t think enough people will make the stand, not, until they are forced to, and, then all bets are off as to what will aspire.

Galilava, hello, thanks for the link to Andrea rossi,s cold fusion alternative energy machine, very interesting, thanks sister.

[NeverMind]

Thats fine if you live near the sea for salt but where would you get baking soda and hydrogen peroxide?

Salt is enough (I did say "and/or" :-)).
It is a powerful bactericide, among other things.

(Chewing sage leaves - Salvia officinalis - is also excellent for oral health.
And honey can cure stomatitis and sore throat, aside from being an excellent remedy against burns).

Now, if someone tells me that salt would be difficult to obtain, I would predict grave problems for that environment. Historically salt has been one of the first and most valuable barter trade items. (The word "salary" comes from salarium, because the wages of Roman soldiers were at one time paid in salt.)

But then, I am not a proponent of such "unplugging".
I ignore censi, do not have any credit loans, no insurance etc. - simply because I do not like being in debt (and don't believe in a life of constant anticipation of threats) - but I also believe that social evolution - not revolution - works the best. History has proven that again and again.

I have written more extensively about this in a thread called "Let's make everything free" (or something like that).

[RMorgan]

Well, there´s another thing involved in it. It´s called modern slavery.

Here in Brazil, we hear news, from time to time, about workers being forced to work in a slavery regime in distant farms.

The farms take very poor persons to work for them, promising a lot of good things. When the workers get to the farms, which usually are very isolated, with no communication with the rest of the world, they are forced to buy everything they need (food, hygiene products, etc...) from the farmers themselves, who sell all products at very high and abusive prices.

So, after just a few weeks, the workers are in debt with the farmers, because they actually don´t earn enough money to buy what they need, so they have to ask the farmer for credits, which, of course, come with interest.

The same thing happens to all of us, right under our noses. We´re in constant debt, so we´re forced to work to pay the debt, and it goes on and on forever.

You know, I remember reading an article from the time when slavery was banished here in Brazil, and some farmers were very happy about it, in fact. The article said something like it (farmer´s words) :

-Well, I can´t wait for slavery to be banished, this way, we wont need to provide the slaves with food and shelter anymore. They will work for us just like they already do, we´ll pay them a few coins, and they will have to pay us back, for shelter and food. The good thing is that what we will pay them wont be enough for them to buy everything they need, so they will need to ask for credits, that we´ll be glad to give, of course, with interest. If some of them refuse to pay us back, they will be punished, but the state and the law will do it for us. Doesn´t it sounds wonderful? It´s a perfect business...

[PHARAOH]

1. Stop Registering our children at birth in the hospitals. (Most important as this is where the slavery and servitude begin.)
2. Stop renew any and all licenses including drivers.
3. Stop going to work.
4. Stop sending our children to school.
5. Close all bank accounts. Get your money out.
6. Stop paying any and all taxes.
7. Stop paying any and all debts.
8. Stop carrying any and all forms of ID.
9. Stop co-operating with any and all forms of government.

These are just to kick start this peaceful revolution.

This simple eh?
No dont register your children. Make them a total non-entity in the eyes of society. Make it so they can't go to shcool. cant have any choice in society... cant socialize with other children... Cant even find their parents if they get lost... cant get medical help if they need it, but heck, guess they do give medical help to illegal aliens. Anyway if it came to that they would likely take them away from you anyway so that they can have a structured environment until you get your head together.
what are you going to do when you get pulled over and you have no drivers license or insurance? you know you will end up in jail.
when you are in jail who will care for your kids? or perhaps your ill wife? or perhaps your elderly mother? or perhaps your chickens and goats?
what are you going to do when your wife has to deliver in a hospital because she needs emergency medical help?..although I myself was a homebirth midwife I myself needed two c-sections. Fortunatley we had insurance so I did not put my burden on the backs of the public, for that is what would have happened for they don't let mothers die due to lack of ability to pay.
How are you going to educate your children? will you have time when you are scraping to make a living?
What are the kids going to do when they haul you in for tax evasion? a foster home? live with your weak and feeble grandma?
what are you going to to when you want to purchase property but have no cash because you have not worked in a job
that pays a decent wage because you didn't want to pay taxes?
How can you live with yourself if you don't pay your debts? That is akin to thievery. You are stealing from someone else
if you have a debt it is because you agreed to terms on a loan. Where is your honesty and integrity? Why should someone else pay your debt?... some one like me? who is forced into higher rates due to your thievery?
How can you model thievery to your children?
Have no ID? forget that cell phone, forget that land line. Forget any connection to the system at all.
Forget educating your self in any profitable skill without an ID, you wont get into a college or a trade school.
You will not be able to set up a small business, but I guess you could grow pot for a while. until you get busted anyway.
You wont even get into highschool.
No don't keep your money in banks. Keep it under your mattress, if you can figure out how to pay rent to to keep a room to put a mattress in.
But don't worry, It wont be long before you have no money to put under a mattress anyway.
You could go live in a hippy commune for a while, if you can still find one, at least until they get fed up with your theivery.
or go live under a bridge

Yes, I can see how this is a path to sustainability in the USA... or UK.. or most nations in the world.

See folks here we have our in house Star Slave: "Arrowwind" making the case for staying right where we are. Not a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. Just love you state and condition, so I can continue living my cushie lifestyle. You see Arrowwind, you have spoken like the fool you be. You don't know me or my position of which I am speaking from. You are obvioulsy a good slave and anyone whom looks to distrupt your servitude, you will attack with claims of thievery. Notice how you didn't mention the wall street/ bank loan thievery that takes place daily. Or even the labor thievery. You are truly indoctrinated and proud of it. You see humanity has made it this far along before we had hospitals for childbirths, schools for indoctrination, ways of getting around by foot say; or horse and carriage sort of like the Ammish still do. How could a child be a non-entity in the eyes of anyone whom clearly sees a human child in thier presence. How foolish you truly are to speak such non-sense. I.D. is not whom you are or ever will be as you can only know whom you are through your experiances in life. You are not your name as that is a fiction much like your goverments, countires and states. But you wouldn't overstand that for you stand under all things taught to you. Children can learn more from the internet these days then they ever could in any classroom. If your wondering how you can record a childs birth and prove they are not illegals; just bring an affidavit to the hospital to be signed by the doctor, a wtiness and have a notary present. You see, you are just making excuses for serving the system and keeping everyone else in line because "YOU" don't want to come to the realization that you've been had all your life. FYI I have paid "ALL" my debts to society and the banksters and am who I say I am. Unlike you, I can do and say as I please without fear of retribution, loss of job or social status. I can just be, and am proud to be. Maybe one day you too can join the ranks although based on your thought patterns an logic, the odds are stacked heavily against you. For evey excuse you mention to maintain in this corrupt system there are ten better ways of doing things. If you don't beleive me, just ask yourself. Oh and btw; go easy on the pot smoking. It's clouding your judgement.

[Lord Sidious]

That is a bit harsh, even though I know why you feel like that man.

[thunder24]

what happened to come up with solutions and keeping the daggers to ourselves?

peace

[Peace of Mind]

Well, I haven’t paid income tax in over 7 years; I paid for my own schooling and never owned a credit card. I’ve gotten letters from the gov about not filing and I’ve send them a nice long threatening letter about their mis-handling of funds/ missing funds during 911/ unaccountability for funds/ bail outs/fake funds/promissory notes/ politicians not living up to the job they were elected to do, etc,etc… I haven’t heard from them since and I used to wonder if they were preparing themselves for the fight I have waiting for them. I’ am not one of the afraid is basically what I told them…in so many words.

I will not live my life worrying, God fears no evil. I stay with my positive thoughts and continue to create the future I want. Those that make excuses to keep cooperating with the wicked schemes of our blatantly corrupt governments are the very ones keeping it alive. I don’t give credence to their threats. Only the weak/afraid and co-operators second guess their powers. Worst case scenario…they will have to kill me before I give in. I don’t fear death, it’s inevitable and it might just be a good thing because I refuse to live in a world filled with deceit and people who have lost their way, heart, sense of self and righteousness. The only way to achieve freedom is to get rid of the crooked system, there is no other way. You either step up or bow down, no sense in talking about change, freedom, tptb if you’re not willing to see and deal with the obvious.

Learn how to live off the grid/land and teach others to do the same if need be…

Most people in my circle have done the same thing…as far as taxes. I don’t owe the fed anything… they owe me and I’m not afraid to let them know. If they want to go to court (which I know they don’t) I’m prepared with notes, documents and supporters willing to expose all of them…and they know this too. This is probably the very reason why it’s been so long since I’ve heard anything from them again. I’m not one of those guys that will sit back thinking about people shuffling me off to jail. I don’t give power to that notion so it will not happen, Simple. That’s something a defeated soul will keep in the back of their minds, not me.

Never doubt your abilities and always stand up to wickedness before it festers into something you’ll have a harder time dealing with later. Eventually you/your soul will rise up and fight against the immoral, so it’s better sooner than later… The people of the world are counting on you to be who you really are. The elites of the world are counting on you to be what they think you should be. So which is it? Deep down, I’m sure you already know what needs to be done. Just do it and put all doubts aside. I know the disempowerment has been lethal, but it will get worse if action isn’t taking soon.

Believe in yourself… or stay a frightened slave wasting away your precious time spending it supporting the devils plans. We can, and have done the impossible many times…maybe the real problem is most of us have trouble remembering this.

live well...always

Peace

[Lord Sidious]

Aha!
Someone with a backbone that does things and not talks about them!
My kind of people.
Good work nugget.

[dddanieljjjamesss]

start working on the new system and the system has to change

[woodshreder]

Agreed Thunder 24 , less banter and more solutions I know there are some brillant minds here,my hope when I started this thread was for everyone that chose to do so ,offer an idea on what they see as a viable option to the paradigm we are in. Darla expressed we are to late for a change because of the consiousness shift taking place now. I offered a hypothetical solution in post 44. Any ideas for a solution are welcome on this thread. Peace always Peace

[NeverMind]

If there was a Barter co-op of sorts started in your community that would get local buisnesses to allow those who choose to trade & barter for goods and services with barter credit that you could create by
1. trading a service for some goods, or
2. trading some goods for services
It could be a very simple grassroots idea in the begining to help people who have very little money (seniors,the unemployed, families struggling) by allowing them to complete a task of their choosing for barter credit with the co-op
and eventually start a Coalition of Trade and Barter..... city by city ,state by state , and eventually internationally
There could eventually be standardized guidlines for what the value of the barter credits are

My thoughts exactly. Goods - or services - in exchange for goods or services.
And it is doable NOW.
(Again, I explained this in more detail in another thread, "Let's make everything free".)

The problem appears to be that too many of those who are eager to change the current conditions seem to want a "revolution" - building on scorched land, so to speak - instead of evolution, re-building what we already have.
And those who do not think about the current social conditions at all don't give a damn either way, of course.

[the trojan]

there is a tie in to the wal street protests that are going on right now in regard to,'What do these protesters want?"
And i guarantee a political group will pop up and claim the right to whatever their agenda is.
I think i read on here or somewhere ,there is a link to a page to vote for demands or something,if it is not on here i apologise ,but it does exist.
well,i went and had a look and i thought fair enough...
but i like to break things down and down and down until i come to simple statements,
If the powers that be want to appease me in a massive way,they would have to provide me with no utility bills,completely free communications(mobiles wireless etc) And no more income tax or vat.And treble the minimum wage and free education for all.
that is it.oh and make it illegal to criticise someone for not having a job(Im a big believer in do what you like,or dont)
now some people may think that is a lot to ask of our leaders,and others may think its not enough,but i think that would be a fine start to a better future.

I stopped working and the system has not felt a thing by the way....just sayin'

[NeverMind]

If the powers that be want to appease me in a massive way,they would have to provide me with no utility bills,completely free communications(mobiles wireless etc) And no more income tax or vat.And treble the minimum wage and free education for all.

Who would pay for them, Trojan?
It's not a rhetorical question.

The socially most successful "welfare states" - Sweden, Denmark - were the ones who had the highest taxes.
I don't know how it works now, but I don't remember people complaining about them too much, especially not in Denmark.
Because they were blinded?
No, because it worked. Because they had excellent social care, free of charge.

[Arrowwind]

See folks here we have our in house Star Slave: "Arrowwind" making the case for staying right where we are. Not a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. Just love you state and condition, so I can continue living my cushie lifestyle. You see Arrowwind, you have spoken like the fool you be. You don't know me or my position of which I am speaking from. You are obvioulsy a good slave and anyone whom looks to distrupt your servitude, you will attack with claims of thievery.

No matter what two wrongs do not make a right. Because wall street has picked your pocket does not mean that you morally or ethically should pick pockets.


[Or even the labor thievery. You are truly indoctrinated and proud of it.

I managed to escape labor thievery by getting an education and providing service to humanity. Serving humanity, individuals with personal need has been my work. Yes, I am proud of it.


see humanity has made it this far along before we had hospitals for childbirths, schools for indoctrination, ways of getting around by foot say; or horse and carriage sort of like the Ammish still do.
How could a child be a non-entity in the eyes of anyone whom clearly sees a human child in thier presence.

So I assume that you walk everywhere or have a horse and carriage. How did you pay for that horse and carriage? yuu never ride in a car because that would be supporting the system you so distain.

a child becomes a non-entity to society when that child grows up and does not learn how to contribute to the world around them and becomes a sucker instead. If you haven't noticed there are an abundance of people who contribute nothing and take what they can for free. Too often they become this way because their family neglected to teach them properly to take responsibility for themselves. If a child is deprived of choices in a society they will have limited choices. If you don't have an ID in the USA its dam hard to make a living.... guess you could always chop wood, or work in a chicken slaugher house or pick cherries and enjoy the freedom that type of work brings to you. Am I to assume that you make a living without a job that requires an ID? or are you on food stamps? Perhaps you chop wood for a living. You can manage that off the books but for countless millions in the cities of the USA your plan is a dead end plan.


I.D. is not whom you are or ever will be as you can only know whom you are through your experiances in life. You are not your name as that is a fiction much like your goverments, countires and states.

I agree but only generally. Your ID enables you to function without hiding, without the state on your back.


Children can learn more from the internet these days then they ever could in any classroom.

and who is paying for that internet? and are the childrens parents contributing? and aside from monthly internet bills who paid for the whole internet infrastructure? Do parents pay tax to support the local library? Or are they working off the books on some job and letting the rest of the world tote the bill?.... I have absolutley no problem with home schooling. None what so ever. On the other hand my sons who went to public school are independent thinkers and make life happen as they see fit according to their own dream. I bet you went to public school somewhere.


If your wondering how you can record a childs birth and prove they are not illegals; just bring an affidavit to the hospital to be signed by the doctor, a wtiness and have a notary present. You see, you are just making excuses for serving the system and keeping everyone else in line because

so what the hell is the difference between this a a city birth certificate. A birth certificate does not connect you with a social security number anyway. It just states where and when you were born and who the parents were. Period.


But "YOU" don't want to come to the realization that you've been had all your life. FYI I have paid "ALL" my debts to society and the banksters and am who I say I am. Unlike you, I can do and say as I please without fear of retribution, loss of job or social status. I can just be, and am proud to be.

What the heck do you know about what realizations I've had in my life.

So good for you. You must be the free spirit de jour. Maybe you can enlighten us as to how you did it since your are enlighted one? You worked off the books I can only assume. Many people work off the books and avoid the tax system. They think that they are not contributing to the problem if they do so and that is correct. They are not economically paying for anything... they are users and feel that they deserve all things becasue someone else made life bad for them. ... When was the last time you used a public road?

Just like you I live without fear of retaliation, or loss of job. I am a free agent because I have choice... I was given choice because my family believes in choice. I have attained independence and our family is on our way to sustainability. This world is by no means perfect. There is corruption at every turn. But there is grand opportunity if your head is not clouded with anger and resentment. There is great opportunity to be of service to others and to live ethically... even if others, such as bankers, choose not to do so.

and btw, your assumptions are wrong. I dont smoke pot.

So far a lot of highminded bull Sh^t from you but no meat to your story.

So how do you live? how do you pay your bills? how do you pay your rent? how do you educate your children? how do you put food on the table? How do you pay for your internet service? Have you attained self sustainability? You ask people to get out of the system at great jeopardy to individuals and families yet you offer no pathway. Go tell your B.S. 9 point Stop mandate to someone who lives in suburbia on Long Island with 3 kids and a mortage and see how far you get, or in Atlanta, or in Dallas, or in any podunk town across the nation. Your are free! Tell us! expecially tell us how to care for the elderly, the infirmed, the handicapped, and the children. all the children.

I dont think you know how.

[Lord Sidious]

If the powers that be want to appease me in a massive way,they would have to provide me with no utility bills,completely free communications(mobiles wireless etc) And no more income tax or vat.And treble the minimum wage and free education for all.

Who would pay for them, Trojan?
It's not a rhetorical question.

The socially most successful "welfare states" - Sweden, Denmark - were the ones who had the highest taxes.
I don't know how it works now, but I don't remember people complaining about them too much, especially not in Denmark.
Because they were blinded?
No, because it worked. Because they had excellent social care, free of charge.

Taxes don't run the state.
They are converting every single asset they can to securities and selling them off to pay back the banksters.
The states run on credit from the central banks.

[the trojan]

The taxpayer pays for almost everything and shares in the profits of nothing.
I think that is fair to say,without looking at figures and percenatges and spreadsheets and opinion polls.
Here is my true dream,forget the one above,thats for the fragile ...
I honestly think if there was a cashless society where everything is free,no system of credit either,after a while people would see that having ten tellies is crazy,that people who genuinely wish to pursue a career would do so,some people would want to do as little as possible of course and they should be allowed to,factories products turn up at the shops and the people go and take their fair share,we are always being told there are not enough jobs well cut down the working week to three or four days per week,but make it flexible for those who wish to do more for whatever reasons and come up with some kind of reward system for workers,it does not need to be a financial reward to provide incentive,as long as the components and ingredients and metals and waste and distribution continues to meet demand then everything would be much the same after teething problems and when the world decides for themselves what they are going to do with their short time here ...breathe out.......Then we can start to sort out any problems,sensibly.

Right you can all sleep tight in the confidence that thetrojan has made it all right!

[PHARAOH]

See folks here we have our in house Star Slave: "Arrowwind" making the case for staying right where we are. Not a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. Just love you state and condition, so I can continue living my cushie lifestyle. You see Arrowwind, you have spoken like the fool you be. You don't know me or my position of which I am speaking from. You are obvioulsy a good slave and anyone whom looks to distrupt your servitude, you will attack with claims of thievery.

No matter what two wrongs do not make a right. Because wall street has picked your pocket does not mean that you morally or ethically should pick pockets.


[Or even the labor thievery. You are truly indoctrinated and proud of it.

I managed to escape labor thievery by getting an education and providing service to humanity. Serving humanity, individuals with personal need has been my work. Yes, I am proud of it.


see humanity has made it this far along before we had hospitals for childbirths, schools for indoctrination, ways of getting around by foot say; or horse and carriage sort of like the Ammish still do.
How could a child be a non-entity in the eyes of anyone whom clearly sees a human child in thier presence.

So I assume that you walk everywhere or have a horse and carriage. How did you pay for that horse and carriage? yuu never ride in a car because that would be supporting the system you so distain.

a child becomes a non-entity to society when that child grows up and does not learn how to contribute to the world around them and becomes a sucker instead. If you haven't noticed there are an abundance of people who contribute nothing and take what they can for free. Too often they become this way because their family neglected to teach them properly to take responsibility for themselves. If a child is deprived of choices in a society they will have limited choices. If you don't have an ID in the USA its dam hard to make a living.... guess you could always chop wood, or work in a chicken slaugher house or pick cherries and enjoy the freedom that type of work brings to you. Am I to assume that you make a living without a job that requires an ID? or are you on food stamps? Perhaps you chop wood for a living. You can manage that off the books but for countless millions in the cities of the USA your plan is a dead end plan.


I.D. is not whom you are or ever will be as you can only know whom you are through your experiances in life. You are not your name as that is a fiction much like your goverments, countires and states.

I agree but only generally. Your ID enables you to function without hiding, without the state on your back.


Children can learn more from the internet these days then they ever could in any classroom.

and who is paying for that internet? and are the childrens parents contributing? and aside from monthly internet bills who paid for the whole internet infrastructure? Do parents pay tax to support the local library? Or are they working off the books on some job and letting the rest of the world tote the bill?.... I have absolutley no problem with home schooling. None what so ever. On the other hand my sons who went to public school are independent thinkers and make life happen as they see fit according to their own dream. I bet you went to public school somewhere.


If your wondering how you can record a childs birth and prove they are not illegals; just bring an affidavit to the hospital to be signed by the doctor, a wtiness and have a notary present. You see, you are just making excuses for serving the system and keeping everyone else in line because

so what the hell is the difference between this a a city birth certificate. A birth certificate does not connect you with a social security number anyway. It just states where and when you were born and who the parents were. Period.


But "YOU" don't want to come to the realization that you've been had all your life. FYI I have paid "ALL" my debts to society and the banksters and am who I say I am. Unlike you, I can do and say as I please without fear of retribution, loss of job or social status. I can just be, and am proud to be.

What the heck do you know about what realizations I've had in my life.

So good for you. You must be the free spirit de jour. Maybe you can enlighten us as to how you did it since your are enlighted one? You worked off the books I can only assume. Many people work off the books and avoid the tax system. They think that they are not contributing to the problem if they do so and that is correct. They are not economically paying for anything... they are users and feel that they deserve all things becasue someone else made life bad for them. ... When was the last time you used a public road?

Just like you I live without fear of retaliation, or loss of job. I am a free agent because I have choice... I was given choice because my family believes in choice. I have attained independence and our family is on our way to sustainability. This world is by no means perfect. There is corruption at every turn. But there is grand opportunity if your head is not clouded with anger and resentment. There is great opportunity to be of service to others and to live ethically... even if others, such as bankers, choose not to do so.

and btw, your assumptions are wrong. I dont smoke pot.

So far a lot of highminded bull Sh^t from you but no meat to your story.

So how do you live? how do you pay your bills? how do you pay your rent? how do you educate your children? how do you put food on the table? How do you pay for your internet service? Have you attained self sustainability? You ask people to get out of the system at great jeopardy to individuals and families yet you offer no pathway. Go tell your B.S. 9 point Stop mandate to someone who lives in suburbia on Long Island with 3 kids and a mortage and see how far you get, or in Atlanta, or in Dallas, or in any podunk town across the nation. Your are free! Tell us! expecially tell us how to care for the elderly, the infirmed, the handicapped, and the children. all the children.

I dont think you know how.

Arrowwind just go away. This thread and this forum is not for you. You can make all the accuasations you want but your dead head is obvious. You love your indentured servitude and wish to keep everyone inline. You paid for your education as it was not free, as it should have been. Heck your probably still paying for it and are salty about it since you are one of the few who are prabably still paying for it and wish everyone to be on board your sinking ship. Let us, the new breed of humanity tend to solving humanities problems while you keep paying to live your dead life. BTW, how i've done it, and still do it, is none of your buisness. Figure it out yourself with your high priced education. Better yet, make like the "Arrow" and cut "wind".

[ceetee9]

First of all many thanks to all who share in this thread .There are some incredibly intelligent and determined folks, right here, in this forum, that could co-create a working plan to bring this from an concept to a working system
After I posted this thread the wheels began to turn.
My thoughts !
If there was a Barter co-op of sorts started in your community that would get local buisnesses to allow those who choose to trade & barter for goods and services with barter credit that you could create by
1. trading a service for some goods, or
2. trading some goods for services
It could be a very simple grassroots idea in the begining to help people who have very little money (seniors,the unemployed, families struggling) by allowing them to complete a task of their choosing for barter credit with the co-op
and eventually start a Coalition of Trade and Barter..... city by city ,state by state , and eventually internationally
There could eventually be standardized guidlines for what the value of the barter credits are
Say I own a bakery, If you provide a service for my bakery That service is worth x amount of credits in which you can barter with me or another member of the co-op, in essence you dont have to be bartereing with every buisness in the co-op for goods or services you need , you can barter with someone, doing something you enjoy or you are good at .Your credits would accrue and you could use them for goods or services within the Co-op
Its just an idea now,, but with enough support and ideas who knows Your thoughts PEACE ALWAYS PEACEThe problem with the barter system, IMO, is that it will eventually degrade into a system just like the Capitalist system because "someone" has to determine what the going "rate" or "credits" are for every product and service. And before long those rates will start escalating thus starting the class system all over again. The only system that I think might have a chance is a completely free system. Albeit, it can only work if a substantial number of people buy into it--particularly people who will provide the essential services and products (e.g., food, water, energy, medical, waste removal, etc.).

[Christine roby]

Last week would have agreed with you but today I'm in sappa Vietnam and with a family that works sixteen hours a day for one hundred and fifty us dollars a month they live in a shack with a dirt floor no running water and live on there produce and rice they sell for one dollar a kilo they only have one rice crop a year I have never seen such povety ever are they happy being self sufficient they have food shelter and clothes absolutely not they look miserable

[Christine roby]

Bravo totally agree with you and I do the same everybody stand up for yourselves you will be surprised

[Mod-edit: this reply appears to be in response to this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?31564-Stop-working-and-the-system-has-to-change&p=324165&viewfull=1#post324165). I recommend using "Reply With Quote", rather than "Reply", so other readers can determine which post you're responding to. :) -Paul.]

[Christine roby]

Actualy there is in Australia how it works is someone comes to your business and buys something it is the logged with this company they owe you so many credits then when u need something you go to there shop and use your credits problem is usually there is a difference and you may owe them a balance which you pay in money still in it's infancy will not work unless all companies come aboard so far fifty fifty

[Unified Serenity]

If the powers that be want to appease me in a massive way,they would have to provide me with no utility bills,completely free communications(mobiles wireless etc) And no more income tax or vat.And treble the minimum wage and free education for all.

Who would pay for them, Trojan?
It's not a rhetorical question.

The socially most successful "welfare states" - Sweden, Denmark - were the ones who had the highest taxes.
I don't know how it works now, but I don't remember people complaining about them too much, especially not in Denmark.
Because they were blinded?
No, because it worked. Because they had excellent social care, free of charge.

I am always amazed at those who would compare America and it's welfare system to countries like Sweden and Denmark. I have been to Sweden, Austria, Germany, Taiwan, and a couple dozen more and none of them were the "melting pot" that America is. If you look at the welfare recipients here, the percentage they make up of America and the percentage of them on foodstamps, housing, medical, and cash assistance, you will notice that for more are on welfare than is healthy and they have been on it for generations. It is another form of slavery. It is a way to make them dependent upon the government and thus ensure their continued votes which perpetuates the system. Corporations bribe the politicians. Laws are made that weaken our economy and we no longer find ourselves with the opportunities we used to have. We have lost our manufacturing base, we have ruined our education system, and we are purposefully made sick to have a patient for life.

You cannot compare America to Denmark or Sweden. The racial make-up is completely different. Please don't bring up that this has nothing to do with race. The race card is played here more often than any other card. Electing Obama did nothing to show how far we have come, because so many of those who feel disenfranchised still feel they are victimized by the evil white man running the country. It's not one political parties fault. It's about greed and power. If white people say anything negative about Obama it can't be because his policies are bad, it's obviously because he is black and we just can't accept a black president. (funny that he is actually half white).

There is a serious spiritual sickness in America. There is hatred so pulpible you feel it in the smallest of interactions. There is tension here. People who have worked all their lives have had their homes taken, their savings destroyed, watching their children not have the opportunities they had, and also watching those who have not worked as hard be given money, benefits, opportunities because of some political interest. We are NOT judged by the quality of our character, but by which victim class we fall under, and if you are white you do not count for the most part. I know this sounds racist. If you knew me, you would know that is not the case. I am speaking from what I have experienced and watched.

You say the solution is to get out of the system? There is so much to be done way before that happens. If the system just came down there would be immeasurable suffering and chaos. We have to cut the spending and stop corporate welfare as well. We have to bring back the opportunities to create and sell in a fair system. We cannot compete in the world market because of our rules and regulations. Imagine it's a 100 yard freestyle swimming competition. American business must not have 100 pounds of weights and one hand tied behind their backs while Nicaragua, Singapore and Chinese get a 30 second head start and flippers. Put a time limit on foodstamps and other welfare money. Generational welfare should scream that the system is broken. This is way more complex than just not participating in the system. It's a spiritual disease and we can only heal it spiritually one person helping another at a time. Not the government stealing from one and making another dependent.

[Ilie Pandia]

Arrowwind just go away. This thread and this forum is not for you. You can make all the accuasations you want but your dead head is obvious. You love your indentured servitude and wish to keep everyone inline. You paid for your education as it was not free, as it should have been. Heck your probably still paying for it and are salty about it since you are one of the few who are prabably still paying for it and wish everyone to be on board your sinking ship. Let us, the new breed of humanity tend to solving humanities problems while you keep paying to live your dead life. BTW, how i've done it, and still do it, is none of your buisness. Figure it out yourself with your high priced education. Better yet, make like the "Arrow" and cut "wind".

Please don't be rude to your fellow Avalonians. If you don't agree with their message then debate the message. If you think they are offensive then report the post with this button under each post http://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/buttons/report-40b.png.

I've sent Pharaoh on a 3 day vacation to clear his head and meditate a bit on his actions.

Later on the mod team may decide to remove the offensive post.

[Jay]

I thought about it ... too many dependents. Actually, in my house the result could be something like this... oKI-tD0L18A

[Lord Sidious]

If the powers that be want to appease me in a massive way,they would have to provide me with no utility bills,completely free communications(mobiles wireless etc) And no more income tax or vat.And treble the minimum wage and free education for all.

Who would pay for them, Trojan?
It's not a rhetorical question.

The socially most successful "welfare states" - Sweden, Denmark - were the ones who had the highest taxes.
I don't know how it works now, but I don't remember people complaining about them too much, especially not in Denmark.
Because they were blinded?
No, because it worked. Because they had excellent social care, free of charge.

I am always amazed at those who would compare America and it's welfare system to countries like Sweden and Denmark. I have been to Sweden, Austria, Germany, Taiwan, and a couple dozen more and none of them were the "melting pot" that America is. If you look at the welfare recipients here, the percentage they make up of America and the percentage of them on foodstamps, housing, medical, and cash assistance, you will notice that for more are on welfare than is healthy and they have been on it for generations. It is another form of slavery. It is a way to make them dependent upon the government and thus ensure their continued votes which perpetuates the system. Corporations bribe the politicians. Laws are made that weaken our economy and we no longer find ourselves with the opportunities we used to have. We have lost our manufacturing base, we have ruined our education system, and we are purposefully made sick to have a patient for life.

You cannot compare America to Denmark or Sweden. The racial make-up is completely different. Please don't bring up that this has nothing to do with race. The race card is played here more often than any other card. Electing Obama did nothing to show how far we have come, because so many of those who feel disenfranchised still feel they are victimized by the evil white man running the country. It's not one political parties fault. It's about greed and power. If white people say anything negative about Obama it can't be because his policies are bad, it's obviously because he is black and we just can't accept a black president. (funny that he is actually half white).

There is a serious spiritual sickness in America. There is hatred so pulpible you feel it in the smallest of interactions. There is tension here. People who have worked all their lives have had their homes taken, their savings destroyed, watching their children not have the opportunities they had, and also watching those who have not worked as hard be given money, benefits, opportunities because of some political interest. We are NOT judged by the quality of our character, but by which victim class we fall under, and if you are white you do not count for the most part. I know this sounds racist. If you knew me, you would know that is not the case. I am speaking from what I have experienced and watched.

You say the solution is to get out of the system? There is so much to be done way before that happens. If the system just came down there would be immeasurable suffering and chaos. We have to cut the spending and stop corporate welfare as well. We have to bring back the opportunities to create and sell in a fair system. We cannot compete in the world market because of our rules and regulations. Imagine it's a 100 yard freestyle swimming competition. American business must not have 100 pounds of weights and one hand tied behind their backs while Nicaragua, Singapore and Chinese get a 30 second head start and flippers. Put a time limit on foodstamps and other welfare money. Generational welfare should scream that the system is broken. This is way more complex than just not participating in the system. It's a spiritual disease and we can only heal it spiritually one person helping another at a time. Not the government stealing from one and making another dependent.

''They'' know that the race topic is an easy one to use to divide us all.
Trust me on this, I know this topic very well.
And I would say you are correct, it is another form of slavery, except this time, they have enslaved the souls of the people, not their bodies.

[Unified Serenity]

If the powers that be want to appease me in a massive way,they would have to provide me with no utility bills,completely free communications(mobiles wireless etc) And no more income tax or vat.And treble the minimum wage and free education for all.

Who would pay for them, Trojan?
It's not a rhetorical question.

The socially most successful "welfare states" - Sweden, Denmark - were the ones who had the highest taxes.
I don't know how it works now, but I don't remember people complaining about them too much, especially not in Denmark.
Because they were blinded?
No, because it worked. Because they had excellent social care, free of charge.

I am always amazed at those who would compare America and it's welfare system to countries like Sweden and Denmark. I have been to Sweden, Austria, Germany, Taiwan, and a couple dozen more and none of them were the "melting pot" that America is. If you look at the welfare recipients here, the percentage they make up of America and the percentage of them on foodstamps, housing, medical, and cash assistance, you will notice that for more are on welfare than is healthy and they have been on it for generations. It is another form of slavery. It is a way to make them dependent upon the government and thus ensure their continued votes which perpetuates the system. Corporations bribe the politicians. Laws are made that weaken our economy and we no longer find ourselves with the opportunities we used to have. We have lost our manufacturing base, we have ruined our education system, and we are purposefully made sick to have a patient for life.

You cannot compare America to Denmark or Sweden. The racial make-up is completely different. Please don't bring up that this has nothing to do with race. The race card is played here more often than any other card. Electing Obama did nothing to show how far we have come, because so many of those who feel disenfranchised still feel they are victimized by the evil white man running the country. It's not one political parties fault. It's about greed and power. If white people say anything negative about Obama it can't be because his policies are bad, it's obviously because he is black and we just can't accept a black president. (funny that he is actually half white).

There is a serious spiritual sickness in America. There is hatred so pulpible you feel it in the smallest of interactions. There is tension here. People who have worked all their lives have had their homes taken, their savings destroyed, watching their children not have the opportunities they had, and also watching those who have not worked as hard be given money, benefits, opportunities because of some political interest. We are NOT judged by the quality of our character, but by which victim class we fall under, and if you are white you do not count for the most part. I know this sounds racist. If you knew me, you would know that is not the case. I am speaking from what I have experienced and watched.

You say the solution is to get out of the system? There is so much to be done way before that happens. If the system just came down there would be immeasurable suffering and chaos. We have to cut the spending and stop corporate welfare as well. We have to bring back the opportunities to create and sell in a fair system. We cannot compete in the world market because of our rules and regulations. Imagine it's a 100 yard freestyle swimming competition. American business must not have 100 pounds of weights and one hand tied behind their backs while Nicaragua, Singapore and Chinese get a 30 second head start and flippers. Put a time limit on foodstamps and other welfare money. Generational welfare should scream that the system is broken. This is way more complex than just not participating in the system. It's a spiritual disease and we can only heal it spiritually one person helping another at a time. Not the government stealing from one and making another dependent.

''They'' know that the race topic is an easy one to use to divide us all.
Trust me on this, I know this topic very well.
And I would say you are correct, it is another form of slavery, except this time, they have enslaved the souls of the people, not their bodies.

Well said Lord Sidious. That's why I say it's a spiritual issue first and foremost. As they say, "How do you eat an elephant?"

[Lord Sidious]

Well said Lord Sidious. That's why I say it's a spiritual issue first and foremost. As they say, "How do you eat an elephant?"
An elephant can be eaten, but only in bite sized chunks. Not sure who made that quote.
This one is my addition, too bigger chunks or eaten too fast and you will choke.

[NeverMind]

Taxes don't run the state.
They are converting every single asset they can to securities and selling them off to pay back the banksters.
The states run on credit from the central banks.

Right.
But somebody would still have to pay for all those things - free services, free education, etc. - that some people would like free.


You cannot compare America to Denmark or Sweden.

I wasn't. The thought never occurred to me. (I am a European, currently living in Europe.)
I thought the proposals here were meant globally.

[Unified Serenity]

Well said Lord Sidious. That's why I say it's a spiritual issue first and foremost. As they say, "How do you eat an elephant?"
An elephant can be eaten, but only in bite sized chunks. Not sure who made that quote.
This one is my addition, too bigger chunks or eaten too fast and you will choke.


Yes, I agree completely. The issue of fixing our world, how we live and work is so complex that there are no simple solutions.

[Lord Sidious]

Taxes don't run the state.
They are converting every single asset they can to securities and selling them off to pay back the banksters.
The states run on credit from the central banks.

Right.
But somebody would still have to pay for all those things - free services, free education, etc. - that some people would like free.


You cannot compare America to Denmark or Sweden.

I wasn't. The thought never occurred to me. (I am a European, currently living in Europe.)
I thought the proposals here were meant globally.

The ENTIRE point of forming nations is to take care of the people, no?

[enrique]

I believe history is on our side here... most significant movements start with stopage:

We can't turn this ship around till we stop it.. Till then we are just galley slaves, oars in hand.. It is so simple it will work. That is why it is so dangerous. This very subject is the paper handcuff, our handlers fear this most, more than violent uprising and civil war combined.

The downside is you need critical mass, strength in numbers... that requires hitting a nerve. Generally speaking we in the west are way to fat, lazy and ignorant. Take the bucket of chicken or cable away and you got their attention.. TPTB know this, they know as long as we are fed and entertained we will continue to be usefull idiots, they dare not hit that nerve..

This will only succeed if its peer to peer.... any attempts to organize will be met with overwhelming force. One site, one community, one organization presents to easy of a target.. The movement would need to be faceless, nameless, free from financial ties... This would afford it a chance to gain critical mass below the radar...

If we can focus enough intent on this in the collective mind, we can make it happen... The genie is out.. We just need subtle thought and action to work the magic....

[NeverMind]

The ENTIRE point of forming nations is to take care of the people, no?


Of states - yes, of course.
(I feel I may be missing something here... or maybe I haven't expressed myself intelligibly enough. It happens. :))

Nations per se are, or were, driven together into more or less homogeneous conglomerates by other forces, but the basic purpose was, of course, still self-preservation, survival.

[woodshreder]

Enrique , This is the kind of bold approach that one would think, make the shift legitimate and significant. I think there is validity in a free society along with some trade and barter, a sort of hybrid approach .The critical services such as helping the sick and caring for those who couldn't care for themselves is the biggest challenge.I think people would be amazed how humanity would come together and help one another organize support systems to sort out the details of what would work best in their communitys Also many have expressed that free energy would make a shift more feasible I couldn't agree more and believe in my heart that technology has been suppressed from humanity by the cabal to keep humanity enslaved
Thanks for your participation in this debate .

I believe history is on our side here... most significant movements start with stopage:

We can't turn this ship around till we stop it.. Till then we are just galley slaves, oars in hand.. It is so simple it will work. That is why it is so dangerous. This very subject is the paper handcuff, our handlers fear this most, more than violent uprising and civil war combined.

The downside is you need critical mass, strength in numbers... that requires hitting a nerve. Generally speaking we in the west are way to fat, lazy and ignorant. Take the bucket of chicken or cable away and you got their attention.. TPTB know this, they know as long as we are fed and entertained we will continue to be usefull idiots, they dare not hit that nerve..

This will only succeed if its peer to peer.... any attempts to organize will be met with overwhelming force. One site, one community, one organization presents to easy of a target.. The movement would need to be faceless, nameless, free from financial ties... This would afford it a chance to gain critical mass below the radar...

If we can focus enough intent on this in the collective mind, we can make it happen... The genie is out.. We just need subtle thought and action to work the magic....

[Lord Sidious]

The ENTIRE point of forming nations is to take care of the people, no?


Of states - yes, of course.
(I feel I may be missing something here... or maybe I haven't expressed myself intelligibly enough. It happens. :))

Nations per se are, or were, driven together into more or less homogeneous conglomerates by other forces, but the basic purpose was, of course, still self-preservation, survival.

They exist for one purpose only, the good of the people.
Anything else is not relevant.
So what if people want the state to give them things if the state can ''afford'' to do it?
That is the only reason it is there.
Funny enough, Iraq under Saddam Hussein Abd Al Majid Al Tikriti and Libya under Muammar Al Qaddafi both used the state to do exactly that.

[enrique]

this is a useful link on bartering sites
http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tech-transport/online-bartering-websites-tips.html

this presents some bartering challenges
http://20somethingfinance.com/bartering-websites/

another incremental step
http://20somethingfinance.com/urban-homesteading-dervaes/

and for those of us that are ready to go all in, we have a spin on the commune...
http://directory.ic.org/iclist/

[enrique]

i have to say my favorite utopian project is this.
http://www.thevenusproject.com/

anyone who has seen the Zietgiest movies will recognize "The Venus Project", as the happy ending after 2 hours of in your face reality...

[nottelling]

i have to say my favorite utopian project is this.
http://www.thevenusproject.com/

anyone who has seen the Zietgiest movies will recognize "The Venus Project", as the happy ending after 2 hours of in your face reality...

Yep, resource-based economy. I like how they think.

Why do we work?

Answer -

To put food on the table
To pay our rent or mortgage
To pay for fuel and vehicle expenses
To pay for "stuff"

Here are my thoughts -

Food:

Mainstream food production as it stands today is being centralised and it is being controlled. Small farmers are being bought out or stood over by multinationals all over the First (lol) World. Seed stock for those farmers being genetically altered, not only to work more efficiently with the pesticides and fertilisers being forced upon the farmer by government regulations, but also to ensure that the seed stock is hybrid - i.e. barren/unable to reproduce. The multinationals have set up an addiction to this seed stock with full governmental backing - farmers who don't buy the corporate backed seeds are punished. Yes I'm talking about Monsanto. I heard about this a couple of years ago direct from a mate of mine who's a farmer in Minnesota. Tragedy is, he couldn't understand why I was so outraged.

I don't know if the sheep/cattle/poultry industry has similar dynamics, but with talk of antibiotics showing up in our food and then helping to create anti-biotic-resistant "super bugs" I have an inkling the livestock industry may be just as screwed up as the crop industry (and that's without even mentioning animal cruelty, etc.).

Solution -

Localised food production Each community/county/state/whatever becomes self-sufficient in food production as much as possible. If you've seen the organic city garden plots in Cuban cities, you'll already know that this works and works well. I'm not saying the Cuban government suddenly became all benevolent and eco-friendly because they're a great bunch of blokes - no, they did it because oil and oil-based products became unavailable in Cuba after the fall of the Soviet Union. It was their own post-peak oil event. They had to abandon soviet-style factory farming and use what works - in their dire situation, permaculture was the answer. Now more than 80% of Havana's salad vegetables are grown organically - in Havana. The city basically feeds itself. If such a thing is possible in a run-down and rotting urban environment, vibrant rural and semi-rural communities have no excuse. But what about payment for this fresh produce? One or more members of each household in the area works on the plots for maybe a full day per week. In return, they get all the fresh produce they need - for free. Food supply and distribution is effectively unplugged from the money system.

Rent or Mortgage:

This one is more difficult. Private ownership of land makes it almost impossible to unplug from the money game. Under the current paradigm, even most "intentional communities" require a substantial cash investment to join. That's just the way it is - if you live in someone else's house you have to pay rent. If you borrow stupid amounts of money to buy or build your own house, you have to pay it back.

I have no complete solution to this problem. I will however say that for those who are building their own home, the professional builder is ripping you off. The materials supplier is ripping you off. The government inspectors are ripping you off. The simple fact that building a house is universally seen as "the biggest investment of your life" means that you simply accept stupid prices for materials and building-related services.

Why is it that the Amish communities can come together to build beautiful houses? Why is it that some dude in the UK can build a gorgeous and functional "hobbit home" for GBP 3,000? The reason - they have both stepped outside the paradigm and removed the middle men who leech off the home buyer/builder.

Vehicles and Fuel:

A couple of thousand dollars worth of steel and, alloy and plastic costs upwards of $20K for a basic, family sedan? Why? Because it's the latest and greatest thing? What about last year's model of the same vehicle? Or the years' before? What about all those 10 year old vehicles out there which are on their last legs solely due to poor maintenance? Wasteful. Maybe older vehicles aren't "cool"? Maybe they are gas guzzlers? Maybe they don't convey "status"? Maybe, just maybe all these new cars feed the finance industry beast by ensuring YOU get into debt and stay there.

Here's a little case study...

I'm an avid outdoorsman. I hike, camp, travel in remote areas, kayak, rock climb, you name it - if it's outdoors I like it. I like the idea of a vehicle which can take me to out of the way places in comfort while still being useable on the roads of lego-land. I'm single with no kids, so obviously my needs in a vehicle are simple. So what vehicle to purchase? Shall I get myself a 2011 model JK Jeep like this one?:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_J3_liDBfbvs/TG-8gsVcyNI/AAAAAAAAx-Q/_7JHmEpIenA/s1600/2011-Jeep-Wrangler-Official-Pictures.jpg

That'd be cool yeah? Go anywhere, CRD diesel engine, soft top - great for summer. What's the cost? Answer (from www.carsales.com.au - accessed today) A$49,590 (plus dealer charges and on-road costs)

LOL Tell him he's dreamin'!

So did I purchase this uber-cool Jeep? Hell no.

Here's the vehicle I bought instead (yes it has doors and a soft top ;) ).

http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab126/craigwanderer/DSC_3705.jpg

It also goes anywhere, has a more powerful diesel engine than the Jeep, and is more reliable - for one thing it doesn't spontaneously combust. More than that however, the older, naturally-aspirated diesel engine is more fuel efficient, it has no computer control and therefore no costly trips to the mechanic for a code reset - and it's EMP resistant, and it can run on dino-diesel, any blend of biodiesel including 100%, where I live (warm here) it can start and run on waste vegetable oil and it can even run on an ATF hydraulic fluid blend if neccessary. Try doing that with a Jeep Wrangler CRD engine.

So how much did it cost me? A$5,000 paid in cash. No finance required, no debt, no feeding the Beast. My vehicle is cool. Believe it or not chicks dig it (in summer anyway lol), and it is 32 years old, but beautifully maintained. I've had it for two years now and if I were to sell it tomorrow, I would easily get around A$9,000 for it. Now that I've fed my ego a little over my awesome vehicle purchase, back to the point...

... which is that an older vehicle does not mean unreliable, crappy, a gas-guzzler or uncool.

Don't feed the beast. Buy a second hand vehicle - preferably a classic if you have an interest in resale value.

"Stuff":

What if you could quickly and easily manufacture gadgets/appliances/even synthetic clothing in your own home? Sounds kind of like a star trek replicator (matter converter)? It sure does. Such technology exists today and while it is still in its infancy, it has immense potential which is totally inline with the resource-based economy espoused by the Zeitgeist movies and the Venus Project. That technology is 3D printing.

Massive technological strides have been made over the past couple of years alone and the technology has evolved from simply being a means to create simple 3D prototypes, to a system which can produce items made from various plastics, nylons and metal alloys. The system is self-replicating, so if you know someone who has one, they can make one for you too. The only caveat is that you have to assemble it. The machines are a little expensive at the moment and separate systems are required for creating items out of plastics and items out of alloys, but the time will come very, very soon when prices will drop and the one machine will be able to create items made from all types of materials.

You download the "pattern" off the internet and feed it into the machine. A few hours later, or overnight, your item is ready to either use or assemble. The machines already have the capability to create "high-resolution" simple machines with moving parts which are spat out fully assembled, so as the technology develops, so will its potential to create complex machines and even electronic components such as circuitry, chips and processors. Atomic-level "resolution" is under development.

Items are recyclable, so when you no longer require it, you feed it back into the machine and simply make something else. No waste. A self-replicating manufacturing plant in each home. This is not science-fiction ladies and gentlemen, this is science-fact... and it's been open-sourced.

Here's a youtube vid on what is possible with the technology TODAY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lJ8vId4HF8

Thanks for reading my disjointed rant.

Cheers.

[Dawn]

I enjoyed hearing how some of you are stopping your participation in a peaceful way. I'd like to add something that, for some reason, has been overlooked. In the USA and Mexico (probably many other places as well) there is a fairly large section of the population living outside the matrix for the most part. They are known as 'the poor' and many here in the US get paid 'under the table' ... which means they are paid in cash or with services or a place to live.

I used to be a 'self-made' multi millionaire. I ran my own real estate business and held my standards high. I thought of myself as the 'hand over troubled waters' for the many clients I helped move. I balanced energies for them, supported the death of the 'old lives' they were leaving, and looked out for their best interests. However a time came when this life no longer called to me and I left it. I saw that the money that had come along with it could be a trap which fed addictions to the 'modern world'.

I developed friends who had become free of the system, and they taught me how to survive outside of it. I know many people who face life without fear and being with them has been an amazing lesson. These people do not have homes, or 'solid' jobs, or an idea of how they will survive in the next couple of days. They are amazing... and I have become one of them.

All that is required is to LIVE with utter abandon, guided only by my heart.... to follow it no matter where it leads. This takes a lot of guts because, when I do this there is NO PATTERN to follow. NO ONE tells me that 'doing my life' is RIGHT or WRONG. This means the inner guidance system of beliefs that I was programmed with will no longer guides me, and I never know if I am doing something safe or not... or even if I am doing something good or not.

I have moved away from a comfortable life that was financially set. I have left a beautiful home. My grown daughter does not approve of the way I live so she has decided I am not worth having a relationship with, which has set me free from the role of 'Mother' for now.

I live in a tiny trailer in a small poor park filled with other poor 'free' people
I have a wonderful garden which produces most of my food, and I dry crops that aren't available in winter
We removed the hot water heater and live with only cold water
90% of our food is eaten raw, so we seldom use the small electric stove we own
All of the clothes I use fit in 4 small drawers
I do most errands from my electric bicycle, or my friend's 45 year old car which has been converted with special free energy devices
We make small alternative healing devices which are sold on the internet and mailed all over the world, most of them are sold from unadvertised sites
We use quite a few devices available only from the 'system' such as computers, internet, cell phone... and we have hopes to move to a more rural area
We sun gaze each day and spend about an hour walking barefoot on most days
Most of our shopping is done in thrift stores and through an online barter community
When we are finished using something we barter it, or give it away because we know there are others out there who could use it.

But... the most important thing I do to separate from the matrix is to love and accept everything about myself... and everything about everyone else.

When there is truly love and acceptance it begins to align and balance everything it comes in contact with.

I am always open to new ways to let go.

[Arrowwind]

[So how do you live? how do you pay your bills? how do you pay your rent? how do you educate your children? how do you put food on the table? How do you pay for your internet service? Have you attained self sustainability? You ask people to get out of the system at great jeopardy to individuals and families yet you offer no pathway. Go tell your B.S. 9 point Stop mandate to someone who lives in suburbia on Long Island with 3 kids and a mortage and see how far you get, or in Atlanta, or in Dallas, or in any podunk town across the nation. Your are free! Tell us! expecially tell us how to care for the elderly, the infirmed, the handicapped, and the children. all the children.

I dont think you know how.

Arrowwind just go away. This thread and this forum is not for you. You can make all the accuasations you want but your dead head is obvious. You love your indentured servitude and wish to keep everyone inline. You paid for your education as it was not free, as it should have been. Heck your probably still paying for it and are salty about it since you are one of the few who are prabably still paying for it and wish everyone to be on board your sinking ship. Let us, the new breed of humanity tend to solving humanities problems while you keep paying to live your dead life. BTW, how i've done it, and still do it, is none of your buisness. Figure it out yourself with your high priced education. Better yet, make like the "Arrow" and cut "wind".

Hmm. so your response is to tell me to just go away. A very creative reply don't you all think?

You cannot stand up for your ideologies with practical advice and know how though your own experices, I must assume after a reply like this. You are pretty good at the insults though. Your pretty good at calling people dead heads.

BTW, I didnt pay one red cent for my eduation, that although didn't land me the highest paying job, at 24 dollars a hour for a good portion of my career, the work allowed me to move around quite a bit and be highly selective as to exactly what I would do. I am very proud of the quality of work I have done over the years and doing this work, although stressful at times has allowed us to get out of the city into a more sustainable life style.Too bad you didn't figure out how to swing it. During my educational process I was alos surrounded by very good people who believed that sharing and extending oneself to help the next generation was paramount. Consequently I didn't have to pay for room when I attended school either.

I am currently living on 8 acres high in the mountians learning how to live self sustainably. I work doing masage, clinical nutrition, teaching small classes on althernative medicine and I am a member of the the Farmers Market where I sell my garden produce and other homemade products... aside from all that is required to develop a sustainable situation here. We do barter frequently for food and services. When it comes to the kind of services we can do there is much opporunity for barter. We, my husband and I, are 100% debt free. My son also got though the University and has come out the other end fully debt free.

Our vehicles were all bought used over the 26 years of our marriage. The tractor that we now have was obtained though barter as well as much of the more difficult farm work that our place requries. I would say that a heck of a lot of barter goes on in these parts... but also in these parts people lend a hand quite freely in many situations. There are some that live off the grid or close to it. Generally going solar here does not pencil out when electiricy is so darn cheap here at under 8 cents a kilowatt hour. Payback for systems is well over 10 to 20 years depending on what your looking at. The house we are building has a strong passive solar component to it. We use wood for heat and cut it ourselves.


Sorry I didnt get back to the thread sooner, but I was busy today harvesting our corn and canning it as well as making cheese. ... and I had some homework for my sustainability class that is offered free to those who want it... it comes out of the county government. It addresses primarily sustainable agricultural methods.

My my. If your above paragraph is a reflection on how "the new breed of humanity communicates" I do believe we are in more dire straights than I thought.

[Unified Serenity]

Arrowwind, your community sounds wonderful! We just recently moved out of the suburbs and are doing a lot of repairs on my parents old place. We have some great neighbors who seem to work together. I think community is the key. I was wondering if you have any advice on building that network and how best to create a healthy bartering system. I have seen many start and fail. It seems so many confuse how much their service is worth compaired to someone else's service, skill etc.. Do you have any tips?

[Arrowwind]

Arrowwind, your community sounds wonderful! We just recently moved out of the suburbs and are doing a lot of repairs on my parents old place. We have some great neighbors who seem to work together. I think community is the key. I was wondering if you have any advice on building that network and how best to create a healthy bartering system. I have seen many start and fail. It seems so many confuse how much their service is worth compaired to someone else's service, skill etc.. Do you have any tips?

Oh, thats a hard one. Back when I lived in Eugene Oregon area they had a great barter bank... which I didn't use because at that time in my life I really lacked skills and know how worth bartering for.. but I remember many people were involved in it. If I remember correctly all service was worth equal and credits were put into the barter bank. For a system like this it takes a lot of solidarity on the part of a community.

One thing to look at is a tool sharing cooperative. This is an excellent start at community self sustainability. There are a number of these that are successful around the country. I think we are likely too small a town to pull that one off.

What I see is that good will and trust is essential. No one keeps account of anything here. We always try to give a little more than the service we received is worth. That builds good will. We gift neighbors too when we got exta to give away. I spend quite a bit of time counseling folks on health, pass stuff out from the garden. No one has insurance around here, not that its worth anything unless you break a leg or have an auto accident.

One barter I was involved in is trading massage for goats milk. We did the trade a number of times. Now it has evolved that I milk her goats when she is out of town and I get to keep the milk that day.. now I am trying to think of a way for her to keep getting massage cause I know she really liked it.... I may just gift her once in a while... as she does much for me on a personal level in showing me the ropes of the community and there is hardly a day that I go to her house and come home empty handed. .. thinking out loud here.

This community is not easy to move into and I would not say that it is "wonderful" and I do not mean to present it as some type of utopia. Most of the folks are long term residents and a bit redneck.. is that the word? well. lets just say not very culturally astute, many have never lived outside of this isolated area... and there is some distrust but we are doing Ok with those who we encounter the most helping them with their cattle drive at one time... they go right past our house, and calling them when we see their animals in trouble, helping them with their sick dog.... they gave us some hay when we really needed it. We have mostly made friends with other new folks to the area and more of the bartering has gone on with them. This is not a new age community by any means. Not like Santa Fe, or Santa Cruz or Eugene, or Northern California, Ithica or Boulder. This is deep Idaho and it is the wild west on many levels.

Getting out there and joining anything you can helps and be ready to offer a helping hand builds trust. I am a member of the Farmers Market and it gives great opportunity to meet the locals and chitchat, find out what they do. There is a section in the book called "The Prophet" that states when doing business, never let anyone go away empty handed because they have not the ability to pay... that gods sustenance is for all,even though you may seem to control a small part of it. I think there is a message in there for good business relations.. and bartering is a business, even if off the books and cashless.

Yet there is an interest in sustainability here and quite frankly these 'redneck' folks could teach us all a thing or two. Enough so that local government sponsors sustainablitly classes in agriculture so people are interested in advancing their skills. I think what I am dealing with here is maybe quite different that what many on this forum encounter in their community.

I am planning on joining the Women's Club. Its been in progress since 1908. The women in it currently are rather aged but they know everyone and hold a lot of respect in town. I think due to their age they are not doing so much these days.. so some new blood might be needed. My neighbor and I have talked about it and we think that it could be a solidifying group to really get some stuff going... personally I would like to see a tree planting endeavor in town so that is one of my goals. So many things could be done under the title of an organization like this.
I have also considered Eastern Star as I have rights to membership in that... although Masonic... and I have my doubts about all that Masonic paranoia, the local groups do huge amounts of charity work. When my dad died, he was a mason, and the group deliverd a nice check to my mom who was left with 3 kids... In towns like this they do stuff like feed and clothe the poor and just make sure people get what they really need. .. so Im still thinking on that one...

But do you see what I mean? You can isolate yourself off into small groups of like thinkers and thats what you will be. Isolated and not making change for the community at large. The more you interface, the better people know you, the more business can be done both in barter and cash. If your intent is good people can read that.

My neighbors are very churchy people. Thank god that does not get in our way between us. They do church stuff several times a week... not for me. But I see that it has been the backbone of developing solid relations for them in the community and they do much more bartering than we have.

I think bartering around here is a natural state of affairs between people who live off the land. You just got to get your foot in the door as a newbie. Not everything is bartered by any means. People sitll need cash... but it seems that even those we have done cash business with are there in a split second on a personal level if you need a hand, from neighbor to neighbor. It is really like nothing I ever experienced living in the big city... and in some ways it is much more like living in Eugene Oregon.

[woodshreder]

Great resources and links you provided in your post Enrique. Ironically the first groups site I visted was a from Oregon Aquarius They are in support of"Preservation, Conservation, Innovation, Equality, Cooperation, Respect, Service, Inspiration, Sustainability, Spirituality and Family" Unfortunatley their last update was in 2008 I haven't had time to look through all but thanks for the info
Peace Always Peace




this is a useful link on bartering sites
http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tech-transport/online-bartering-websites-tips.html

this presents some bartering challenges
http://20somethingfinance.com/bartering-websites/

another incremental step
http://20somethingfinance.com/urban-homesteading-dervaes/

and for those of us that are ready to go all in, we have a spin on the commune...
http://directory.ic.org/iclist/

[woodshreder]

Arrowwind I was wondring what year you were in Eugene when you were a part of that barter bank ?


Arrowwind, your community sounds wonderful! We just recently moved out of the suburbs and are doing a lot of repairs on my parents old place. We have some great neighbors who seem to work together. I think community is the key. I was wondering if you have any advice on building that network and how best to create a healthy bartering system. I have seen many start and fail. It seems so many confuse how much their service is worth compaired to someone else's service, skill etc.. Do you have any tips?

Oh, thats a hard one. Back when I lived in Eugene Oregon area they had a great barter bank... which I didn't use because at that time in my life I really lacked skills and know how worth bartering for.. but I remember many people were involved in it. If I remember correctly all service was worth equal and credits were put into the barter bank. For a system like this it takes a lot of solidarity on the part of a community.

One thing to look at is a tool sharing cooperative. This is an excellent start at community self sustainability. There are a number of these that are successful around the country. I think we are likely too small a town to pull that one off.

What I see is that good will and trust is essential. No one keeps account of anything here. We always try to give a little more than the service we received is worth. That builds good will. We gift neighbors too when we got exta to give away. I spend quite a bit of time counseling folks on health, pass stuff out from the garden. No one has insurance around here, not that its worth anything unless you break a leg or have an auto accident.

One barter I was involved in is trading massage for goats milk. We did the trade a number of times. Now it has evolved that I milk her goats when she is out of town and I get to keep the milk that day.. now I am trying to think of a way for her to keep getting massage cause I know she really liked it.... I may just gift her once in a while... as she does much for me on a personal level in showing me the ropes of the community and there is hardly a day that I go to her house and come home empty handed. .. thinking out loud here.

This community is not easy to move into and I would not say that it is "wonderful" and I do not mean to present it as some type of utopia. Most of the folks are long term residents and a bit redneck.. is that the word? well. lets just say not very culturally astute, many have never lived outside of this isolated area... and there is some distrust but we are doing Ok with those who we encounter the most helping them with their cattle drive at one time... they go right past our house, and calling them when we see their animals in trouble, helping them with their sick dog.... they gave us some hay when we really needed it. We have mostly made friends with other new folks to the area and more of the bartering has gone on with them. This is not a new age community by any means. Not like Santa Fe, or Santa Cruz or Eugene, or Northern California, Ithica or Boulder. This is deep Idaho and it is the wild west on many levels.

Getting out there and joining anything you can helps and be ready to offer a helping hand builds trust. I am a member of the Farmers Market and it gives great opportunity to meet the locals and chitchat, find out what they do. There is a section in the book called "The Prophet" that states when doing business, never let anyone go away empty handed because they have not the ability to pay... that gods sustenance is for all,even though you may seem to control a small part of it. I think there is a message in there for good business relations.. and bartering is a business, even if off the books and cashless.

Yet there is an interest in sustainability here and quite frankly these 'redneck' folks could teach us all a thing or two. Enough so that local government sponsors sustainablitly classes in agriculture so people are interested in advancing their skills. I think what I am dealing with here is maybe quite different that what many on this forum encounter in their community.

I am planning on joining the Women's Club. Its been in progress since 1908. The women in it currently are rather aged but they know everyone and hold a lot of respect in town. I think due to their age they are not doing so much these days.. so some new blood might be needed. My neighbor and I have talked about it and we think that it could be a solidifying group to really get some stuff going... personally I would like to see a tree planting endeavor in town so that is one of my goals. So many things could be done under the title of an organization like this.
I have also considered Eastern Star as I have rights to membership in that... although Masonic... and I have my doubts about all that Masonic paranoia, the local groups do huge amounts of charity work. When my dad died, he was a mason, and the group deliverd a nice check to my mom who was left with 3 kids... In towns like this they do stuff like feed and clothe the poor and just make sure people get what they really need. .. so Im still thinking on that one...

But do you see what I mean? You can isolate yourself off into small groups of like thinkers and thats what you will be. Isolated and not making change for the community at large. The more you interface, the better people know you, the more business can be done both in barter and cash. If your intent is good people can read that.

My neighbors are very churchy people. Thank god that does not get in our way between us. They do church stuff several times a week... not for me. But I see that it has been the backbone of developing solid relations for them in the community and they do much more bartering than we have.

I think bartering around here is a natural state of affairs between people who live off the land. You just got to get your foot in the door as a newbie. Not everything is bartered by any means. People sitll need cash... but it seems that even those we have done cash business with are there in a split second on a personal level if you need a hand, from neighbor to neighbor. It is really like nothing I ever experienced living in the big city... and in some ways it is much more like living in Eugene Oregon.

[Camilo]

I agree and did it myself 8 years ago. It hasn't been easy, but is doable. How many would be able to do it really?...

[Arrowwind]

Arrowwind I was wondring what year you were in Eugene when you were a part of that barter bank ?


Pretty long time ago now.. As I said, I was not a member but saw it in action though friends. it was about 1978.

Look at what I just found: http://www.u-exchange.com/memberlist/United%20States/Oregon/Barter-Items-and-Services

[woodshreder]

Very informative site.. Looks like a great idea , you offer what you have, and ask for what you need in return ....Or visa versa ....Good approach Thanks Arrowwind for your posts


Arrowwind I was wondring what year you were in Eugene when you were a part of that barter bank ?


Pretty long time ago now.. As I said, I was not a member but saw it in action though friends. it was about 1978.

Look at what I just found: http://www.u-exchange.com/memberlist/United%20States/Oregon/Barter-Items-and-Services