Grow your own — Food Self-sufficiency for you

[Seikou-Kishi]

I thought I'd make this thread offering a few suggestions about how to become self-sufficient in terms of food. There seems to be an idea that self-sufficiency means scrimping and scraping and having a thoroughly unpleasant experience, but there are many ways we can live abundantly without buying into the system.

I would be greatly pleased if this thread could turn into a place in which people share their ideas and experiences, and also where people propose new ideas and those with experience are able to guide those seeking it. If we pool our experiences and know-how, there is very little we can't do :-)


Plant fruit trees. They might not fruit for the first few years (depending on the stage of development at which they're purchased). Fruit can be grown as plants like strawberries, raspberries, etc., but I find trees more efficient since they usually take no looking after. I have quite a few fruit trees of different types and a few nut trees as well. The harvest from them all is very large and so I'd recommend it highly. A little brewer's yeast is a very good way of dealing with the excess; just press out the juice and innoculate with the yeast. Vinegar can then be made from the country wine by innoculating with acetobacter bacteria.
Grow bushes. Bushes which fruit are very useful. I grow blueberries, red, white and black currants, gooseberries, tayberries and gojiberries. I also have raspberries and blackberry bushes, but I tend to allow only a few stalks of them because of the way they propagate; they send large stalks upwards until they bend over and reach towards the ground, at which point they start growing roots into the ground. You can avoid this by allowing only a few stalks to grow and then using canes and strings to train them to grow in the right direction (i.e., to stop them touching the soil). They produce an awful lot for their size.
Grow Vegetables. Vegetables are very easy to grow and given only a little care and attention they will produce large amounts. For things like beans, the plants can be harvested many times before they stop producing food. When they are approaching the end of their productivity, allow them to go to seed so that you have beans you can plant for next year. Be careful about 'choking' the soil with hay; it will prevent weeds but it will attract rats.
Use your compost heap. Your compost heap is a very useful way of getting rid of all the uncooked garden waste and any uneaten (and uncooked) vegetables, fruit, etc.. The compost heap is also the perfect place to grow fennel, which requires no attention whatsoever. Throw a few fennel seeds on your compost heap and in no time at all you'll have huge fennel hearts ready to eat — and what's more, any you don't eat are in the right place ;-)
Use your walls. Many people forget about their walls when they are thinking of where to plant their crops, but many plants thrive when grown against a wall and their usefulness can be maximised. The elder is considered a weed, and in structure falls half way between a tree and a bush. It grows a few central stems which give it the appearance of a willow which has been copsed. These stalks can be trained to travel along trellises in such a way that they can be made to cover a wall the way ivy covers buildings. This flexibility makes it a very useful plant, since it can turn an otherwise unused wall space into fruiting canvas. The flowers can be used for making country wine and the berries can be used for wine, syrups, jams and jellies. The tree is poisonous, though, so the fruit should be heated before it is used (heat breaks down the poison). The berries are very good as a health tonic because they contain components which inhibit viral replication, so made into a syrup either on their own or with other tonics like Rowan berries (Americans, read Mountain Ash berries) or rosehips they are a great way of bolstering one's defences during the winter months. It has become a common thing now for me to make elderberry, rowan and rosehip syrup in the autumn and distribute it around my family and friends and it's the perfect way to sweeten and flavour porridge.
Don't be afraid to be decorative. I often encounter the opinion that any space that isn't used for vegetables is wasted space, and so people will be disinclined to plant decorative flowers. If you are of this opinion, you can in fact have the best of both worlds. Plant sunflowers around the house and any other buildings on the land up against walls for the protection and support it provides. When they mature you can collect their seeds, set a few aside to grow more next year, and use the rest as a healthy snack. Try planting roses on trellises as archways over paths for both their decorative purposes and for their edible petals. They can brighten up a salad, be used in confectionery, or dried and used sprinkled amply in wardrobes and clothes draws for the natural smell.
Don't be scared of weeds. Some weeds are only weeds because they're prolific. Others are only weeds because people have decided they don't like them. Do the lawns of your gardens really look better for being uniformly green? I enjoy looking out over the gardens of yellow during the summer when the dandelions are in full bloom. The flower heads can be used in salads or made into wine, the leaves can be used in salads, the roots can be roasted and ground into a coffee substitute and the stalks can be split open and wrapped soothingly on sore or burnt skin — much more useful than grass. Nettles too provide quite a good array of vitamins and minerals. Held since ancient times to be a blood cleanser, it contains hefty amounts of iron and vitamin c, making it a great food for those with anaemia (the body can't absorb iron without vitamin c, making most 'just iron' supplements ineffective). They can be fried up with onions, shallots or garlic (or a combination) and puréed to make something which is great as a garnish, as an addition to soups and also just great spread on dry toast.
Don't be scared of keeping animals. Most people aren't blessed with the space which I am lucky to have, but most people do have enough space to keep a few animals. Overlook this if you're offended by the thought of using animals for meat. Rabbits can be kept for their meat and over a few generations they can provide a great deal — selectively breed those rabbits which mature the quickest and which fatten up the most and your rabbits will produce a lot of meat very quickly. If you do not think you could bring yourself to prepare the animal for food, reassure yourself that your rabbits will have had great lives with you and will have lived free-range lives. Never kill anything you intend to eat in front of the others — they do notice and it's not fair to alarm them. Rabbits can be fed with vegetable surpluses (if you are gardening right, you'll run a surplus nearly all the time). Keep chickens for their eggs and also for their meat. Chickens can be fed on the seeds of whatever plants you are growing. Pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds -- even the seeds of the dandelions come their time (they take little gathering). I haven't yet branched out into keeping my own animals, though my cousin has and I relay here his experience. When it comes to chickens, a single rooster is necessary to breed the next generation (he should be removed from the chickens for the rest of the time so that the eggs do not develop). Since a rooster's work is minimal, quite a few self-sufficient households can share a single rooster. If you make use of another's rooster, it might be nice to contribute towards his food. To get your chickens and rabbits, speak to somebody who already keeps them or buy them new and breed them yourself. Once you get into the swing of it, it won't seem half as hard. My cousin is considering also taking on ducks, but remember the larger the bird the more space you'll need. They will take an initial investment in terms of creating their enclosures — just remember that any enclosure should be as good at keeping things out as in.
Buy some good books. Buy books which talk about free food. There are many places in the country where you can get food for free. These books are obviously specialised to certain regions; what is good for the UK probably won't help an American and what is good for the US probably won't help a Briton, and so on. You can find many books online pointing out where to get food for free, such as what wild plants are edible (and which parts) and where to find them. Then there are books like the Vicomte de Mauduit's "They Can't Ration These" — a WWI era book written by a French nobleman with a forward by the Prime Minister David Lloyd George which details various recipes using free food, talks about how to prepare caught animals for cooking (such as skinning and gutting), gives recipes for a few different country wines and even cosmetics such as making soap, shampoo.
Make good use of fire. Fire is a useful way of reinvigorating soil with nutrients. When burning fires for the purpose of nutrients, make sure to burn only natural things — logs, wood that's only been naturally treated, etc.. When the fire has burnt down the ashes can be mixed into soil or added to the compost heap as a way of raising the PH of the soil and increasing potassium content. You can also create tar by smoking wood and using this as a natural way of protecting your wooden fences against rot and rain.

[Seikou-Kishi]

When it comes to planting seeds and bulbs for growing, people can find all the requirements daunting. They say plant your seeds so far apart and plant them so many inches beneath the soil. Water them so often and feed them every week or so. All of these different demands can mean that planting becomes as tricky and as intricate as brain surgery, but you know it really doesn't have to be that difficult and gardening doesn't have to become a full-time job.

There is one simple thought to keep in mind when planting seeds, etc., and that is that plants are living things; it is their nature to survive and they have a vested interest in surviving. They're not fussy celebrities who are going to storm off if you don't pander to them — they want to live and will survive. I'm often surprised when people act as though they're great gardeners because their plants are growing so well and I think aren't they forgetting the tiny part the plants themselves played in it?

Plants survive and thrive perfectly well without human intervention. They're not babies that need constant attention or they'll wither up. If the weather is exceptionally dry, water them a little. If you've planted quite a bit in the same patch without leaving it fallow, give it a little food. Otherwise, though, put your confidence in the plants' own ability to survive. It's much easier to have a green thumb than people think. The trick is in not smothering them and letting them get on with it. I'm surprised by how often people manage to kill plants and most of the time it is because they water and feed excessively.

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Now, very often plants will attract pests. You absolutely do not need to use pesticides to protect your crops. It should hardly need to be said at Avalon that pesticides are not good products. Many plants that you will grow have developed their own defences against pests. The most common are aphids, which break through the stems and drain the sap, starving the plants. There are quite a few ways to deal with such in ways that won't introduce unnatural chemicals into your garden.

Most gardens will grow onions, since they're a staple foodstuff and they have developed defences against pests. Other plants like chilli peppers and garlic have very obvious defences. Two herbs which are known for the ability to drive away pests are mint and lemon balm (commonly called balm; melissa officinalis).

To make a wash to deal with pests like aphids, finely dice a large onion or two, a handful of chilli peppers, a couple of garlic bulbs and a bunch of mint or lemon balm (or both). Bring some water to a rolling boil in a stew pan and add the ingredients. Put the lid on and allow the ingredients to macerate in the hot water for a few minutes, then sieve and bottle into a spray bottle. Spray the plants wherever the aphids collect and they will be driven away.

Another remedy is to finely dice a whole onion and to place it in a jar thinly layering diced onion with granulated sugar. Leave it over night and the sugar will have extracted all the liquid from the onion. Sieve the remnants of the onion from the syrup and using a paintbrush paint it lightly onto plants such as roses (which are prone to aphids) at the joints where stems branch (which is where aphids strike). The consistency of the syrup provides protection on a longer basis than the spray and the syrup is far too "oniony" to be an appetiser for the pests. Not only will the syrup keep for a very long time, a little goes a long way. I make a jar and keep it with a brush in case I ever need it, but I don't use it at all if it doesn't seem necessary — but when something is necessary, one of these two will nearly always do the trick :-)

[Lord Sidious]

Anyone going to start doing this I would suggest that they study what they want to grow, how it would fit into their local ecosystem and what that crop needs in the way of water etc.

[christian]

Anyone going to start doing this I would suggest that they study what they want to grow, how it would fit into their local ecosystem.

However, there is room for innovation, Sepp Holzer planted southern plants next to a mountain cliff, that acted as an oven, as the stones saved heat, so he could grow those crops in the Swiss mountains. His book "Permaculture" (http://www.amazon.com/Sepp-Holzers-Permaculture-Small-Scale-Gardening/dp/160358370X) is a classic.

[Lord Sidious]

Anyone going to start doing this I would suggest that they study what they want to grow, how it would fit into their local ecosystem.

However, there is room for innovation, Sepp Holzer planted southern plants next to a mountain cliff, that acted as an oven, as the stones saved heat, so he could grow those crops in the Swiss mountains. His book "Permaculture" (http://www.amazon.com/Sepp-Holzers-Permaculture-Small-Scale-Gardening/dp/160358370X) is a classic.

I was thinking more along the lines of planting things that require a lot of water in an area that doesn't have it to spare.

[sshenry]

Ideally you would want to have acerage in order to be properly self-sufficient, but for those who are stuck in smaller or suburban neighborhoods in the US, you don't have to give up on your dreams of taking steps towards self-sufficiency!

For those US based members, keep in mind that many home owners associations have regulations against growing 'agricultural crops' or doing anything that will 'adversely affect' your own or your neighbor's property values (infringing on these bylaws can come with some hefty fines; money which can be taken out of your bank account via garnishment since many of the associations use credit collection agencies for their fees and dues).


That being said, there are a good number of ways to get around the bylaws. Some suggestions:


Create 'ornamental beds' that incorporate vegetables and edible flowers. Sunflowers, lavender, roses of course are always good choices. But also consider combining some standard 'decorative' ornamental plants and shrubs with tomatoes, cucumbers, green beans, peas, strawberries, and other low-growing foods. Herbs are a no-brainer as most people wouldn't know the difference between, say, sage and any other ornamental plant. Just keep your beds to a 'decorative' style (curved and rounded, leaving good sections of grass) and chances are it will go entirely overlooked.

Plant fruit trees when at all possible instead of decorative alternatives.

Use a metal (odor-free) composter. You can get these in some interesting decorative styles - I have an aquaintance who purchased a black, annodized worm composter and then arranged it into a "zen" corner of their garden - she gets tons of complements, and no one ever suspects even though her home association will fine home owners $500 for having a composter or compost heap.

Use a 'standard' shed for raising your animals. If you want to raise rabbits or chickens (I suggest rabbits in a suburban area as chickens will soon make their presence known), convert a standard wooden 'garden shed' into a hutch. This will prevent nosy neighbors from reporting your rabbit hutch. If you structure it right, you can put a run for your rabbits between your house and the shed, construct it behind your decorative/edible plant boarder so that it can't be seen so that your rabbits can get fresh air and sunshine.

[Seikou-Kishi]

I'd heard Home-Owners Associations were tin-pot dictators but I didn't realise they were that bad.

Your suggestions about raising rabbits is excellent sshenry, a great bit of foresight there. I read a book about people who had converted their cellar into their rabbit den. It had small windows at the top which allowed natural light in and they had the run of the place. Such cellars/basements can easily be converted into "rabbiteries" or vegetable gardens and they're out of sight of prying eyes. They also have the benefit of sharing the house's warmth and providing year-round shelter.

[Seikou-Kishi]

I will tell a little about the usefulness of having a coppiced tree or two, since they really are very useful. A coppiced tree is one which is continually cut down to the base and which then sprouts many stalks rather than being a tall tree with a single trunk. For our purposes, it is best to use a fast-growing tree like a willow or a poplar.

Because of the way coppiced trees grow, they produce many long and slender branches which can be taken and used as supports for growing beans and any other plant which requires support. In addition, the bark of the willow tree can be made into a useful string by peeling the bark from a branch (slice it once along its length and peel it off circumferentially) and removing the inner bark from the outer bark like peeling a tissue into its layers. Once you have the inner bark, cut it into thin strips and boil it in a mixture of ash and water over night, then leave it to dry hanging on a branch and you will have tough, sturdy and almost leather-like string for tying plants to their supporting canes — and all of it perfectly biodegradable and easily replaced.

Now the size of some gardens may mean the space used by a coppiced tree or two could be sorely missed, but it is also true that coppiced trees are frequently found in woods and can be gone to as needed.

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For those of you wondering about food for plants, there are a few cheap and easy methods you can try.

The first is a simple putrefaction of nettles in water. Take as many nettles as your container will readily accommodate and roughly chop them up. Pour on enough water to cover them to the top and put a lid loosely on the top to stop anything falling in (if it's kept outside). This mixture stinks to high heaven, so I'd not suggest keeping it in the house, though the putrefaction process would be aided by the heat. The best place to keep it is in a greenhouse where its smell won't be intrusive but where it can benefit from the heat of the greenhouse (and add to it; as bacteria and fungi break down the nettles they raise the temperature to about human body heat). This mixture can be used for things like tomatoes, which have a high nutrient demand. You may want to dilute this as it can be very strong.

The second is coffee grounds. If you drink a lot of coffee, save your grounds and allow them to dry, then add them to soil around your acid-loving plants. Coffee grounds are rich in nutrients necessary for good plant growth (but lower the PH of the soil so are only useful for the acid-lovers).

Another good plant food can be found in Epsom salts. Epsom salts are magnesium sulphate and plants thrive on these.

Many commercial plant foods actually only promote leafy growth. That's all well and good when a plant is first germinating, since leafy growth is basically all it's doing. They can really help a new plant get established, but when they're a bit bigger and you expect to reap a good harvest of fruits or vegetables, switch to something high in potassium like the putrified nettle liquid which will give the plants the nutrients they need to create really nourishing food for you :-)

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Food production is very important. So is food preservation, water access, water filters, solar energy, composting toilets and so much more. There is much useful information in my blog Ideas For Self Sufficient Living During Financially Turbulent Times (http://ronmauer.net/blog/).

[Seikou-Kishi]

Hey Rmauersr, I'd love to hear your experiences of preserving food. The closest I get to preserving things are turning them into wines and jams. I usually end up giving away any surplus I have, but it would be interesting to read your techniques and I'm sure other readers would be grateful for your experience on the thread :-)

[risveglio]

I'd like to start trying to produce my own food, though my two attempts at house plants have gone miserably wrong. Winter is approaching here, is there something that can be done before the winter or do I have till spring to plan my garden?

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Dehydration is my choice for preserving food. The best instructional videos I've found are on Youtube by Dehydrate2Store, or go to Tammy's website http://www.dehydrate2store.com/. It is not wise to depend upon uninterrupted electricity to power a freezer. Some dehydrated food will last more than 30 years.

Purchase frozen veggies from your local supermarket. No pre-processing (blanching, lemon juice, etc.) is required when using frozen veggies. Dry the veggies using an electric dehydrator. Excalibur (http://excaliburdehydrator.com/) is one of the best but an inexpensive American Harvester (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Snackmaster-Express-Food-Dehydrator/1120727) will work. Set the temperature no higher than 125 degrees F for veggies, or higher for jerky (dried meat).

Pre-packaged dehydrated foods (just add boiling water) can be purchased at some places where camping supplies are stored. Mountain House (http://beprepared.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_FC%20M195_A_name_E_Mountain%20House%C2%AE%20Best%20Seller%27s%20Kit) is a popular brand, and it tastes good.

Complete meals and meal components are available online from Emergency Essentials (http://beprepared.com/).

The enemies of long term food storage are primarily moisture, oxygen and temperature. Darkness is also helpful. Store the dried veggies in Mason jars or mylar bags that have had most of the oxygen removed with a Foodsaver (http://www.foodsaver.com/category.aspx) or with oxygen absorbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_absorber). Store veggies at room temperature or less.

It is said that the average person can live 3 weeks without food but only 3 days without water. So make sure you have access to water.

The Berkey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylh9N9OOhxU&feature=player_embedded#!) water filters seem to be the most popular but there are many others. The AquaPak (http://www.solarsolutions.info/aquapak/aquapak.html)is a solar powered water pasteurizer designed for use in 3rd world countries.

Ron Ideas For Self Sufficient Living During Financially Turbulent Times (http://ronmauer.net/blog/)

[Lord Sidious]

The only problem with dehydrated foods is that it needs our most valuable resource, water, to rehydrate again.
This isn't practical in a situation where you have low supplies.
I couldn't believe it when I saw the MREs that the USMC carried had a lot of dehydrated junk in it.
It is all well and good when the supply chain is working well, when it is not, you are using the water you can't afford to use.
You should see the amount of water you use daily in the field, just for drinking, even in the cold.

[Marianne]

I'd like to start trying to produce my own food, though my two attempts at house plants have gone miserably wrong. Winter is approaching here, is there something that can be done before the winter or do I have till spring to plan my garden?

Hi Risveglio -- I don't know which weather zone you are in so will generalize ... you can plant cold hardy greens in a cold frame well into cold weather, really until a hard frost and a bit beyond depending on where the cold frame is, etc. (southern exposure is best).

If you have a garden or space to plant a few things, plant lettuces and leafy greens. Many of them can be partially harvested so they keep growing and extend your harvest time.

Hope this helps you a little. PM me if you want to chat more about specifics. :)

[Davidallany]

However, there is room for innovation, Sepp Holzer planted southern plants next to a mountain cliff, that acted as an oven, as the stones saved heat, so he could grow those crops in the Swiss mountains. His book "Permaculture" is a classic.Thank you chiquetet.

Free media 40 hours video on premaculture.
http://permaculture-media-download.blogspot.com/2011/09/introduction-to-permaculture-40-hours.html

[nearing]

Not sure why you would feel the need to rehydrate. Everyone, including myself, I know that dehydrates food eats it that way. It is nutritionally exceptional even if some things are chewy. ;)

[nearing]

I'd like to start trying to produce my own food, though my two attempts at house plants have gone miserably wrong. Winter is approaching here, is there something that can be done before the winter or do I have till spring to plan my garden?

Lots of great info on web and YT about hydroponic gardening - growing without soil.

[GCS1103]

This is a great thread. Everyone here is giving constructive advice to help us all for some possible trying times to come. I learned a lot from reading the posts and I want to thank you all.

[Lord Sidious]

Not sure why you would feel the need to rehydrate. Everyone, including myself, I know that dehydrates food eats it that way. It is nutritionally exceptional even if some things are chewy. ;)

If you eat it that way, it will leach the moisture out of you when you attempt to digest it.
That is a quick way to go down with heat exhaustion/dehydration out in the field.

[nearing]

Not sure why you would feel the need to rehydrate. Everyone, including myself, I know that dehydrates food eats it that way. It is nutritionally exceptional even if some things are chewy. ;)

If you eat it that way, it will leach the moisture out of you when you attempt to digest it.
That is a quick way to go down with heat exhaustion/dehydration out in the field.

Ah, well in a world where huge municipalities are no longer pumping water from the rivers and reservoirs (at least in my part of the world) there will be more water to fetch. It just won't come out of a tap.

Personally, I'd rather leave the body than worry about keeping it alive. But I know that I am not in huge company here.

[Marianne]

Oh! I just remembered, Muzz started a couple of good threads on farming and getting the most from your land, even if you don't have any!

here:
The Urban Farming Guys
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?29548-The-Urban-Farming-Guys

and here:
How 1 Million Pounds of Organic Food Can Be Produced o 3 Acres
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?31064-How-1-MILLION-Pounds-Of-Organic-Food-Can-Be-Produced-On-3-Acres.

[ThePythonicCow]

If you eat it that way, it will leach the moisture out of you when you attempt to digest it.
That is a quick way to go down with heat exhaustion/dehydration out in the field.
Wouldn't it work to drink some water if you're thirsty?

One does not have to pre-mix these things, by for example re-hydrating the food.
The stomach and digestive organs are a pretty good "mix master."

[Mod-edit: toned down attitude a notch. -Paul.]

[Ron Mauer Sr]

One would be missing a pleasant experience if one ate dehydrated food that had been packaged as meal (spaghetti and meat sauce, chili mac, chicken ala king, scrambled eggs, etc.) without adding water.

I would suggest visiting a local store that caters to campers, hikers, etc. and purchase some Mountain House brand meals packaged in Mylar. You might be pleasantly surprised how good it tastes by removing the oxygen absorber, adding boiling water to the bag, sealing the zip top, then waiting for 10 minutes.

If you like the samples, consider purchasing the same food packaged in #10 cans from one of the many online sources. I can recommend beprepared.com. The #10 cans are more economical than the mylar bags, but more bulky.

Water is critical. Make sure you have a supply. Fortunate are those who have a well and a very skinny well bucket. A lake or stream can be used if a quality water filter is used.

A plan to get and store water (http://ronmauer.net/blog/?page_id=178) should be at the top of the preparation list.

[Lord Sidious]

If you eat it that way, it will leach the moisture out of you when you attempt to digest it.
That is a quick way to go down with heat exhaustion/dehydration out in the field.
Wouldn't it work to drink some water if you're thirsty?

One does not have to pre-mix these things, by for example re-hydrating the food.
The stomach and digestive organs are a pretty good "mix master."

How much water do you think an infantryman or hiker can carry?
How much do they need per day in average conditions walking?

[Mod-edit - removed objections to my (now mod-edited out) attitude. -Paul.]

[Arrowwind]

A hydrophonic growing system is something to consider if you have no land or are an apartment dweller. Just think of all the pot thats been grown this way.. well you can grow veggies also... just need lots of buckets, water lines, minerals for the water and grow lights, ph test strips.

Meat rabbits can be grown inside or on a balcony. We're having rabbit for dinner tonight that our neighbor raised.

[GlassSteagallfan]

Recommended book - Square Foot Gardening by Mel Bartholomew

On ebay right now for $1.00

[EileenCookies]

I thought I add some notes for those unable to garden (for whatever reason). First I recommend getting good at savings. A book called "Your money or your life" assisted me by pointing out (in a likeable fashion) where my expendures were focused (thus allowing me to pick and choose what I wanted to have (what is important) in my life)...without feeling a sense of loss (since I felt good just noticing what I was spending on, without guilt....then later choose what to not spend on). I noticed lots of gidgets (unneccessary items I was filling my life with). I cut my expenses in half.

I kind of left that structure after that point (as spending half of what I was was very helpful...but the rest of the ideas in the book didn't help me...still looking as to the reasons....not that revelent...obviously).

Now, after several years, I like to put aside food, hygiene products, toilettrees and so forth. How to do that? I have extremely limited storage (I felt) and I didn't have money to buy products. Then I saw the series on TV called "Extreme couponing". As most of these ideas didn't help me (I could see that if I had a car, for example, they might), I at first just let it go, but watched it anyway. Then ideas started coming to me as to what I could do. One step each day seems to come to me. Where I could put a few extra items in my room (go up). Where I could store items successfully in a filthy overused already garage (use boxes, label with my name (other people use it indescrimately) and so on. In terms of not being able to use a computer (and watch out for those viruses please!...I bought a second computer, used cheap and portable to take care of this issue....), as I have EMF sensitivies (so I limited my useage,...alot), how could I use couponing to help? Then I realized I could get a book on how to do it (there are several) and learn to write letters to manufactures I liked for free stuff (ever hear of a pen and pencil and a stamp?). Now I am on my way. One tiny step, every day, moves me forward. So can everyone save this way. Watch the show and learn how.

lv
eh

[Seikou-Kishi]

The only problem with dehydrated foods is that it needs our most valuable resource, water, to rehydrate again.
This isn't practical in a situation where you have low supplies.
I couldn't believe it when I saw the MREs that the USMC carried had a lot of dehydrated junk in it.
It is all well and good when the supply chain is working well, when it is not, you are using the water you can't afford to use.
You should see the amount of water you use daily in the field, just for drinking, even in the cold.

People could always stockpile water. I can't help thinking dehydrated food might have just a slight edge on no food at all lol :P

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Good thread. Thanks!

I live in a tiny studio apartment while I pay down debts and save up to buy some land near Shasta. I'm interested in tips and techniques for apartment dwellers with little space. I've been interested in indoor gardening for years, but have never tried it.

[Lord Sidious]

The only problem with dehydrated foods is that it needs our most valuable resource, water, to rehydrate again.
This isn't practical in a situation where you have low supplies.
I couldn't believe it when I saw the MREs that the USMC carried had a lot of dehydrated junk in it.
It is all well and good when the supply chain is working well, when it is not, you are using the water you can't afford to use.
You should see the amount of water you use daily in the field, just for drinking, even in the cold.

People could always stockpile water. I can't help thinking dehydrated food might have just a slight edge on no food at all lol :P

If you are stationary, possibly.
If you are mobile, much harder.
I have watched the supply echelons working on bringing water out and you guys might be surprised how much 10 guys need per day.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Good thread. Thanks!

I live in a tiny studio apartment while I pay down debts and save up to buy some land near Shasta. I'm interested in tips and techniques for apartment dwellers with little space. I've been interested in indoor gardening for years, but have never tried it.

Wheatgrass and sprouts are nutritious supplements easily grown in an apartment that can be added to a food production program if water is available. All you need is a Mason jar, a porous lid, water and seeds. If water is not available you must move. Have a water plan.

Here are links from the Food Production (http://ronmauer.net/blog/?page_id=176) page:

Sproutman (http://sproutman.com/sprouters?zenid=776cd2005f5a83686f08412373e5ff15)
SproutPeople (http://sproutpeople.org/)
Sprouting Guide (http://www.survival-spot.com/survival-blog/ultimate-sprouting-guide/)
Sprouting (http://www.simplyprepared.com/sprouting.htm)
Mumm’s Sprouting Seeds (http://www.sprouting.com/)
Good Sprout New (http://www.isga-sprouts.org/)s

[onawah]

For indoor gardening where sunlight is scarce, Full Spectrum light bulbs are very useful.
Also good for counteracting the effects of Seasonal Affective Disorder.
I've been using bulbs I order from Dr. Mercola's website.
Another PA member who is knowledgeable on the subject, on a thread about the dangers of ordinary CFLs checked them out and said they are good.
I emailed Dr. Mercola's site to inquire about mercury in the bulbs and was told that mercury was used in the manufacturing process, but these Full Spectrum bulbs do not contain a lot of mercury like the ordinary CFLs do, though there may be very minute traces.
They lift my mood in the winter and my indoor plants and wheat grass trays, sprouts, etc. do well since I started using them.
Also very good value, as they last a long time.

[EileenCookies]

Onawah, thanks for the bulb advice. I will pass it along tonight to my former brother in law in washington state (he seems to be suffering from this...S.A.D. too).

On sprouting:
I like the idea of growing plants indoors (though I am not able to as I don't actually have a place). I did do sprouting for a while in a cupboard, but the sprouts often rotted. Too much dampness? Hard to fix weather related issues. Didn't come up with a solution myself. Any ideas anyone?

[EileenCookies]

On "extreme couponing" there are various issues. My mother just pointed out that in California it isn't legal for the stores to double the coupons (I did notice there were none in my area, santa cruz, doing it any longer). But I did just order a book from amazon on how to do it (took my own advice). As just watching the show didn't give enough clues to just do it (without getting frustrated). But as I am having luck now doing it, I can give my own version on how it really works (no hype).

I did just save $8 on shipping by buying an additional product on amazon (and the book at full price, ...there were no cheaper used ones) and using the 'free super shipping' program. So savings already!

lv
eh

[sshenry]

Container gardening is great for anyone who has limited space (no yard or very little yard). Especially for apartment dwellers (if you have good, sunny windows) or on balconies or patios.

I lived in a townhouse with a pocket-handkerchief sized (north facing) yard for 3 years, but practiced container gardening on my miniscule (south facing) front porch/patio. For three of us I was able to harvest enough lettuce, tomatoes, greenbeans, carrots and summer squash to last us all year by preserving/freezing etc. AND it didn't interfere with the homeowner by-laws (since they were in containers, not planted).

There are tons of websites/books etc. on Container gardening :)

[Ron Mauer Sr]

On sprouting:
I like the idea of growing plants indoors (though I am not able to as I don't actually have a place). I did do sprouting for a while in a cupboard, but the sprouts often rotted. Too much dampness? Hard to fix weather related issues. Didn't come up with a solution myself. Any ideas anyone?

Copied from http://www.survival-spot.com/survival-blog/ultimate-sprouting-guide/#4 (http://www.survival-spot.com/survival-blog/ultimate-sprouting-guide/#4)

Uh oh!!!!!

If you see mold on your sprouts, or notice any other odd things DO NOT eat them. If you do have mold on your sprouts here are a few things you might consider doing differently next time to prevent it.Sprout Mold

-Improve air circulation. Although cabinets work most of the time, sometimes you will not have enough fresh air flowing to your seeds. If this is the case try some other dark location, or add a small fan to improve circulation.
-Make sure your seeds are properly drained. Poor drainage is a leading cause of mold, that’s why we angle our jars.
-Clean your sprouter and any equipment used in the process (including your hands)
-Try using colder water during rinses and consider adding an additional rinse per day
-Consider switching to a different sprouter

[onawah]

Hi EileenCookies in Santa Cruz
(I used to live there-miss the mountains, redwoods and ocean! )
If you are using jars for sprouting things like alfalfa or clover, I would recommend getting some kind of sprouting device that affords more ventilation.
Heat definitely makes sprouting the smaller seeds a problem, but ventilation and air circulation will help.
The fan idea from rmauersr is a good one and all his other suggestions.


Onawah, thanks for the bulb advice. I will pass it along tonight to my former brother in law in washington state (he seems to be suffering from this...S.A.D. too).

On sprouting:
I like the idea of growing plants indoors (though I am not able to as I don't actually have a place). I did do sprouting for a while in a cupboard, but the sprouts often rotted. Too much dampness? Hard to fix weather related issues. Didn't come up with a solution myself. Any ideas anyone?

[Arrowwind]

Good thread. Thanks!

I live in a tiny studio apartment while I pay down debts and save up to buy some land near Shasta. I'm interested in tips and techniques for apartment dwellers with little space. I've been interested in indoor gardening for years, but have never tried it.

I think hydrophonic gardening is the way to go if you have little space in an appartment. You can do it outside in the summer and inside in the winter.
Food storage is critical. You must store food and not rely on what you grow for at least 3 years! Do you really think you can figure out growing stuff fast enough to survive? Let me tell you . Its not easy.

Throw that dining room table away. Get 9 or 12 five gallon bucket (depending on how big your dining room is) filled with dried food that you think you can eat. I store red beans, pintos, white rice, lentals, white beans, cornmeal, oat meal and wheat.. On top of the 9 buckets you have placed in the middle of your dinnig room get some 3 gallon buckets and store food in those also. They are smaller buckets and can set on top of the 9 larger buckets. Now you have a pedestal for a table. Place plywood on top and cover with a table cloth. Now you have enough dried food to last 2 people about 2 years. Now get about 12 small buckets with gamma lids and I find all this stuff at Walmart in the food department, they usually have an Emergency Essentials section. These hold about 2 gallons. Just stack them up and put them in a closet for that rainy day. When you are ready to use your stored food you pull out the storage buckets and fill the small buckets. These are what you will be taking food out of on a a daily basis. The large buckets go back under the table. Another option is to make like a sideboard, in the dining room. just stack your buckets two high. place a board on top and cover with a table cloth.


Purchase a small chest freezer and hope to god that what ever happens that you will have electricity. This can also be decorated as a table. Put it in a bedroom is you must. Find a local farmer and request to purchase a half or quarter side of beef. This is where you will keep it. If your not into meat put frozen veggies in there. You can look on craigs list under farm supplies. People who sell beef often list on there. Purchasing a quarter is harder than a half. You will have to find some one to go in on it with you most times.

We have a large box top loading freezer. Never get an upright as they melt down twice as fast. I know it is a risk if we loose electiricty. But in my neck of the woods for 7 months we are froze in anyway. If the electriciy goes out that time of the year the freezer gets moved from the garage to outside.

Learn how to can. Have canning suppies and a dehydrater. Dont wait for a crisis to purchase this stuff because you will never find it then and now you still have time to look around for used stuff. I bought a used bath canner for $6.50. A really large one. New your looking at $50. Even if you dont can you may find someone who has access to food but no canning supplies. Store mason jars under the bed. You can even raise your bed 10 or 12 inches to store more stuff. There are places on the net to order extra long bedskirts or you can make one so your not looking at that stuff all the time.

If you do not still have sufficient space find someone to go in on renting a storage unit who is into survival also. You can store lots of stuff for about $20 a month each. Hold out for a storage space in walking distance. ... or perhaps a freind with a garage that can be locked, or a basement.

You could raise rabbits in a rented storage unit or in your own house or on a balcony. They do not require to be inside when it is cold. The cage should be protected from wind and rain though. In time you can fill up a freezer with rabbit. Its really good. Tastes much like chicken but much easier to raise. If your handy you can make rabbit cages yourself.

All this tuff that you have purchased will be stuff you want to have on your land when you get there so there really is no waste. This will be about a $1,000 investment and let me tell you the cost of dried beans and rice is going nowwhere but up.

Start collecting seed. Put it in ziplock bags. Press all the air out when closing. Store in fridge is best but not absolutley necessary. Dry and out of heat and light is essential. An old shoe box in the back of the closet is good enough if there are no mice around... or in Mason jars.

Shasta area is beautiful and I have fond memories of it.

[Seikou-Kishi]

Earlier, I spoke a little about making washes to drive away pests but I feel remiss in that I neglected to mention nature's own pest control detail.

Ladybirds are a very welcome sign for gardeners, since they eat aphids and other common garden pests on a huge scale and there are certain things a gardener can do to attract them to his garden. There are three key things that a gardener can do to maximise his ladybird population:


Attractive plants. Dandelions and nettles are the two top plants for attracting ladybirds. Nettles especially are beloved by ladybirds as places for laying eggs, which is exactly the kind of behaviour gardeners want to encourage: the more ladybird eggs that are laid in the garden, the greater the population next summer.
Provide shelter. This maybe sounds like a weird one, but ladybirds are well known for infesting human habitations because of the warmth and shelter they provide. I've never known anybody complain about such infestations, though, because I think most people have fond thoughts of ladybirds. You don't have to give up house room to these gardenwolves, though; you can create comfortable habitats for them in the garden. Small wooden tubes with holes in them provide shelter, as do any installations which provide corners and nooks and crannies. Such shelter provides a much better environment for hibernation than leaving them to their own devices beneath clumps of grass. (Ladybirds often don't survive the winter, but if they can (by finding suitable accommodation) they overwinter very successfully — such overwintering populations allow for a more resilient ladybird population from year to year).
Provide food. Now, this somewhat goes against the grain as gardeners, but allow and even encourage aphids to grow on a few plants. As my least useful plant, I tend to let the roses bear the brunt of this. Ladybirds feed on aphids and by allowing a few aphid colonies to amass on certain plants, you provide the food and incentive for a sturdy population of ladybirds — which will then protect your other, probably more important plants.
Learn to identify them. Ladybirds are unmistakable little things, even children can point out a ladybird with surety. The larval forms are less obvious. They appear as somewhat flattened caterpillars with six insect legs and the reverse of the adult pattern (mostly black with a few orange-red spots). The eggs you might never notice, since they are about 2mm big. They are laid in clusters on the undersides of leaves (nettle and dandelion being the most common places). If you see their larval forms, remember not to squash them. Strange though they seem, they are just the baby forms of your garden hands :-)


In addition to their useful role as crowd control, ladybirds also play a role in pollinating flowers. As for that role, though, I'm looking into keeping bees. I'll let you know how that works out, unless they take me out and then you're on your own ;-)

[Ilie Pandia]

This is a most useful thread! Even if I can't contribute much I'd like to know more so please keep it up!

[Muzz]

THanks for this thread, this is one simple way we can all unplug from one part of the control system.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=659155658226666080


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzRzJRiUylg


Cooperate with nature, dont confront it - Sepp Holzer


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl9rkXifxrw&feature=related

Joy Larkcom's book Grow Your Own Veg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Grow-Your-Own-Vegetables-Larkcom/dp/071121963X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317629962&sr=8-1) is very helpfull. :)

[taizen]

Another person keeps posting about the importance of water. Quite right, he is. I've done extensive research is this area and found out many disturbing facts. One fact-did you know after the year 2006, there has been an annual conference concerning the shortage of fresh water? Did you know fresh water lakes, aquifers, and other under ground lakes are being purchased en mass by the wealthy (businesses and other entities) globally? Once I found this out, I was more concerned about how to have a water supply which I could control instead of someone else. My research led me to save for aquaculture, personally designing a water filtration system which recycles all water from the household, cistern creation; this all led to my designing a self contained/ sustainable small community - water/electricity/food/shelter - are not issues. One general contractor looked over the construction dubbed it 'the hobbit homes'. :)
Food is one thing, if you do not have the water, clean&purified, life will not be sustained. Once your water supply is intact, then, IMHO, people should design their way of life around the cycle of water.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Depression era cooking with 93 year old Clara. She is delightful and shares a little of her valuable experience during times of scarcity.
Clara will warm your heart.

Pasta and peas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuMkW35BwK8&feature=player_embedded#!)
Egg Drop Soup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yREFkmrrYiw&feature=player_embedded)
The Poorman's Meal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OPQqH3YlHA&feature=player_embedded)
Peppers and Eggs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4IjNV3lZkQ&feature=player_embedded)
Fresh Bread (Peppers and Eggs Part 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IEWJmm4Tms&feature=player_embedded)
Cooked Bread (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qptfhu9R0WI&feature=player_embedded)
Depression Breakfast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zXqkHvs0po&feature=player_embedded)
Poorman's Feast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXpouL9Q1iY&feature=player_embedded)

[Seikou-Kishi]

RMauerSr (I think I've got that right) those videos were excellent! That's exactly what people need to know to learn how to make nutritious and satisfying food. It reminds me of what I said in my first post about self-sufficiency not having to be a chore.

When I gather the nut harvest from my hazel trees, I grind a number of them to a paste and add a little cocoa powder (with no exact measures; I play it by ear). It's much healthier than commercial things like nutella, has a better consistency and the children love it (one of them wouldn't even touch nuts before). Admittedly, in terms of self-sufficiency cocoa powder might be harder to come across, but it's a good way of making those hazelnuts into something the kids will enjoy :-)

[leavesoftrees]

Earlier, I spoke a little about making washes to drive away pests but I feel remiss in that I neglected to mention nature's own pest control detail.


Hello SK, thanks for this thread - very informative. I try to grow vegetables each year, but don't have too much luck. Rats get into my vegetables, so I only get to eat a few from each crop. Do you have any suggestions for keeping rats and possums out. I guess the way to go is good fencing, but can be expensive

[Seikou-Kishi]

Earlier, I spoke a little about making washes to drive away pests but I feel remiss in that I neglected to mention nature's own pest control detail.


Hello SK, thanks for this thread - very informative. I try to grow vegetables each year, but don't have too much luck. Rats get into my vegetables, so I only get to eat a few from each crop. Do you have any suggestions for keeping rats and possums out. I guess the way to go is good fencing, but can be expensive

Hi, I'm sorry to hear of your bad luck and while I have no experience with possums (wrong tectonic plate ;)) I do have some experience with rats. Fortunately for me, I have wild cats and owls on my land, and they do a great job in that regard. With anything like rats it's the opposite equation compared to things like ladybirds, but essentially the same thought process. Two questions here are the crux of the issue: what is it that attracts rats and possums to your land, and what is there that could dissuade them? All we really have to do is swing the balance so far that the disadvantages to ransacking your crops outweigh the benefits and we can do that in several ways.

The first is to sour the milk. Rats and possums are attracted to the food in your garden, so make that food unpalatable. Garlic is a very good at keeping things like rats away because the plant has pegged its survival on being repugnant to most animals. Many friends with gardens of a certain size find garlic powder useful; depending on the size of your garden, you may find it beneficial to sprinkle garlic powder around the perimeter as a deterrence. At speciality outlets, garlic powder can be bought by the kilogram as though it were sugar or flour. I'm not sure what the efficacy of garlic salt would be, though.

My best suggestion though would be to create a natural barrier. In many English country houses, the garden has a small trench to keep 'wild' animals like sheep and deer away from the house while not harming them and not disrupting the view. They're called ha-has, and a problem with rats and possums would require only a very small ha-ha to be dug. It is essentially a ditch which slopes down on the outer side (the side facing away from your growing area) with a steep perpendicular wall on the other. Animals are allowed into the ditch and out again by the shallow incline (and so aren't harmed), but are prevented from passing any further by the wall. This solution does not cause any harm at all — not even discomfort, it just makes your crops unavailable.

I include a link to the wikipedia entry on ha-has (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha-ha), which include a diagram which will no doubt help you implement the design in your garden.

I'll ask around my like-minded friends and see if anybody has any other ideas which might help.

I hope these do it for you though :-)

[GCS1103]

This is a most useful thread! Even if I can't contribute much I'd like to know more so please keep it up!

I agree- It's a very productive thread for everyone. I can't contribute anything either, but I sure have learned a lot from all the posts. There are some really ingenious members here and I want to thank you all again.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

A homemade hand pump for retrieving well water has been designed Keith Hendricks who lives in northwestern Ohio. Keith has distributed thousands of copies to folks attending survival expos because he believes we are all in for rocky times and that personal preparedness is our best defense. In an effort to make a contribution, he has made his easy-to-assemble pump available to all who wish it. If you have any further questions, or wish to express personal thanks, Keith can be contacted at patriot@ohio.tds.net

Keith states he built this hand pump in 20 minutes for about US$20. It can be used in water wells that have no existing feed lines, wiring or submersible pumps in place, or in water wells with them in place

Parts List and Assembly Instructions (http://www.thefoodguys.com/handpump.htm)

If electric power becomes intermittent water will be a critical resource. A plan for getting water should be top priority. Such a plan may be impossible in the cities.

[Seikou-Kishi]

Hi Goldie, the very purpose of this thread is for those who have experience and know-how to be able to share it with those who do not. You and Ilie have both said that you do not have much to contribute, but that is what this thread is for: if we were only talking about things everybody knew, this thread would have been redundant for the first post. This thread is your thread.

Hi RMauerSr, you're right that water is very essential but I was hoping that this thread be more of a grow-your-own discussion. As it happens, I'm not one of those who believe that disaster will strike any day and I have to be prepared with stockpiles of everything I can think of, and I am much more inline with the thinking espoused on Ilie's great Free Energy thread (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?29372-What-technologies-activities-or-concepts-will-be-made-obsolete-by-Free-Energy)) and on Wade Frazier's enormous thread (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10672-WADE-FRAZIER-A-Healed-Planet)); I am not a fan of the scarcity-based mindset of ferreting away for a rainy day because it's really got that awful sort of soul-decaying 'life has to be endured' flavour. I'm not one who wants to eke out my living at all costs — my living isn't all that important to me :-)

[Guest]

Hi,

Here is my little contribution about Cacti and arid plants. First I'll post some links. Our pal Google has pages of information about Cacti. Here are some links to get you started.

Nopales: www.localharvest.org

www.motherearthnews.com cacti in general

Edible Desert Plants:

www.tucsoncitizen.com/wry/heat/.../edible-desert-plants-cactusfruit
article barrel cactus

www.wilderness-survival.net edible cactus


I lived in the desert for 6 1/2 years in America. The high desert for 5 yrs. and in a low desert region 1 1/2 yrs. -one of hottest and most arid in the US.

Here is a little bit about what I know of some Cacti:

All edible Cacti are very high in Vitamins A & C. All if the fruits. commonly known as apples are edible. Rough off spine/stickers/ or scrape skin, peel skin or open -inside pulp & seed are edible, all fruits from Cacti can be made into jellies and are delicious.

Pulp/water inside of some Cacti are edible (caution diuretic raw) eat/drink in small doses w/long intervals in between.

Edible Cacti

Nopales: Pads -peel skins cook or eat raw good in anything/ pulp can be made into jelly. (caution diuretic raw)

Barrel Cactus: Cut open drink/eat pulp (caution very diuretic) eat in small doses w/long intervals.

Prickly Pear: Pads peel skins cook or eat raw good in anything. Pulp can be made into jelly. (caution diuretic raw)
The pads of the Prickly Pear Cactus are one of natures best healers. They are good for any Staphylococcus infections -open or closed wounds; spider/insect bites, poisonous/toxic bites or any kind of of infection, bite or wound. If you can try and find the very dark green thick pads. Cut off pad from plant, rough off/cut off spines/stickers, peel/slice off skin of one side of pad -leave skin on other side of pad. Gently place pulp side of pad onto wound/infection. Firmly wrap (not to tight) with gauze or bandage to keep pad in place. Leave pad on for 12 to 24 hrs -then check wound/infection. Place pad back on or refresh pad & wrap again.
After/within 4 days infection/wound should be on its way to healing. Note: Wound/infection may swell or become worse within 12 -24 hrs. sometimes this is part of the healing process and will go down after 24 hrs. If you are able to always wash the infected area/wound thoroughly before application.

Yucca Tree/Plant: White flowers edible used a lone, salads or soups. Base of plant pulp just above root of plant can be scraped out and used as wash for hair.

Aloe Barbadensis: Aloe Vera, Aloe Ferox Pulp can be eaten (again diuretic) also good for the skin. Grows all over the world. Subtropical and arid lands.


Most Cacti grow well in pots/ use light porous sandy soil (no clay). Also don't over water, if your cactus starts to turn yellowish/reddish/orangish in color back way off of the water- it can drown or cause moldy roots & die.

Another note about cactus they thrive in a southerly direction and if for some reason someone finds themselves lost in the desert -find a cactus they always grow leaning to the south.

When working with cactus it's always a good idea to have a very good thick/heavy pair of leather or rubber gloves, very sharp knife and a pair of tongs is always nice to have around when removing pads.

I hope I contributed something good to this thread and anyone who has knowledge or suggestions or info knows about a good book about arid plants please share.

Nora

we are all related

[Ammit]

I have to agree with the Mr Lord Sid on this one, If you eat dehydrated foods then it has to re-hydrate from somewhere, YOU!!!.
Once your de-hydrated food is re-hydrated from you then you are pretty much screwed.

If you do not believe that a good supply of water is or will be available, then, dont use re-hydrateable food.

[Lord Sidious]

I have to agree with the Mr Lord Sid on this one, If you eat dehydrated foods then it has to re-hydrate from somewhere, YOU!!!.
Once your de-hydrated food is re-hydrated from you then you are pretty much screwed.

If you do not believe that a good supply of water is or will be available, then, dont use re-hydrateable food.

Even though I learned that in the army and they only tell you what they want you to know, they don't particularly want you to go down with heat exhaustion/dehydration.
And bearing in mind that I served in the Australian outback, water is something they teach us about a lot.

[leavesoftrees]

Thanks for your reply SK. My land is only little more than a courtyard garden ( about an 1/8th of an acre) in an inner urban suburb. Still I can grow a lemon, lime, fig and plum tree, tomatoes, cucumber, beetroots, zucchini , strawberries , rhubarb, corn and lots of herbs. I have never heard of garlic powder but will see if i can source it. Given space constraints, a haha is not so practical.

the best thing I have done for my garden is spray 500 twice a year. I've only done it for a couple of years, but the difference is extraordinary. People are amazed at my rhubarb crop. Biodynamic gardening rocks.

http://backyardbiodynamics.com/

[nearing]

Thanks for your reply SK. My land is only little more than a courtyard garden ( about an 1/8th of an acre) in an inner urban suburb. Still I can grow a lemon, lime, fig and plum tree, tomatoes, cucumber, beetroots, zucchini , strawberries , rhubarb, corn and lots of herbs. I have never heard of garlic powder but will see if i can source it. Given space constraints, a haha is not so practical.

the best thing I have done for my garden is spray 500 twice a year. I've only done it for a couple of years, but the difference is extraordinary. People are amazed at my rhubarb crop. Biodynamic gardening rocks.

http://backyardbiodynamics.com/

What is 500?

[thunder24]

Earthships seem to be an easy way to have a continueal abundance of goods for everyhome...

I watched this dudes video...he grew bannanas and pineapple in his canadian home...
BWeFVvLPUsU
Highrise farms across globe would solve theworld food "shortage".

however there is nothing like getting back to the greatoutdoors and sinking your hands in the dirt.

peace

[Ammit]

What we all need is to grow using heritage seed, its not hard, but your crops will be the best you ever saw..... I am awaiting my second delivery of heritage seed and then next years crops are solved.

Heritage seeds:http://www.realseeds.co.uk

[Seikou-Kishi]

Great link Ammit; we should definitely be growing organic food without foreign genes :D

I think I'm going to scour that site now :D

[Ammit]

My garden was mainly lawns, 120feet long by about 40 feet wide, I have slowly been stripping away the lawn to make growing patches. As my shoulders are buggered I have just invested in a cultivator. I can recomend these lovely tools as for less then 1/2 litre of fuel, it made ready my ground in 45 mins and this was a piece 40 feet by 18 feet.

The soil now resembles a seed bed and now it is done, I will never have to dig again just run the Mantis over it every now and then.
Considering I cook a lot and have kept my eyes on supermarket prices, I think it wise to invest in your available land to grow your own food.. Frozen veg has risen by 65p - 1.10 in the last 2 months.........

I have to add that the ground was hard lumps of freshly turned soil, this was under the lawn yesterday.

[leavesoftrees]

What is 500?

500 is what is used in Biodynamic gardening. It is cow ****, that has been put into cow horns along with herbs, and buried in the ground for 6 months over winter. When it is unearthed it is quite changed. This is then mixed into warm water and stirred for an hour and then applied to the garden. This is usually done in spring and autumn

It doesn't sound as though this would do anything, but as soon as you walk into a biodynamic garden you know that there is something different about it.

[Arrowwind]

Seikou- I think you mean lady bugs.. they are good but I found that they were not sufficiently helpful when a berry bush of mine got attacked by a godzillion aphids. There were about 15 lady bugs on the bush too... and not a very big bush., 18 inches tall. But a spay of dish soap got rid of them.

So this is the second year of vegetable gardening for me. I do it for the joy of it and I do it to create self sustainablity in our increasingly unstable world. http://illiweb.com/fa/i/smiles/icon_flower.png

Because I am no longer a spring chicken when I approached the idea of gardening at first all I could think of was the annual pain that weed pulling brings on. If I was to garden and to really garden meaningfully I must find an easier way.

So along came the idea of Lasagana gardening, also known as layered gardening. I quickly saw the benefit and reduced labor the concept presents.
But of course the setting up stage is always the hardest.

When we moved to the mountains 2 years ago we settled upon a fully undeveloped acreage. If we wanted anything done we had to do it. There was no house waiting for us, no warm retreat, no gardens waiting to be spaded.

Once I determined the location of the garden to be I solicited the help of my dear husband, I explained to him the need for raised beds as I did not want to spend the next 20 on my knees, although I realize that in the long term this might be great for the body, in the short term it lends to quite a bit of pain... but recent life experience has shown me that the short term seems to have no limits or bounds... there is always pain from excessive gardening and overdoing it can be a daily event.

The raised bed were constructed to contain the lasagna beds. We purchased some cedar planks that were on special because they had too many faults in them. The 2 large beds are 18 inches high and 12 feet by 4 feet. The two smaller beds are 4x4.

Becasuse we have a terrible problem with volls here who will dig up from the bottom and eat all your efforts we lined the bottom of the beds with 1/2 inch wire mesh, stapled onto the frame.

A lasagna bed is self composting. Once you have it in place the process requires little physical work. You will never have to turn a compost pile again. Your plants will rise up out of fluffy mulch that absorbs water well and is refuge to the fattest worms.

To start your bed you need the essential ingredients on hand.
a pile of leaves
a bale of straw
a pile of goat, horse,steer or chicken maneur
a pile of grass clipping
a bale of alfalfa hay

Enough cardboard or newspaper to fully line your bed in a one inch layer.
Layer this first. It will keep all grass and other perinneal weeds from coming up
and you will have an essentially weed free bed, except for the few stragglers that blow in
or came in in your compost.

you will notice that I have green elements here and brown elements. You need at least one green element, one brown element and one maneur.

It does not matter much which order that you layer your bed, but always encase a green element between two brown elements. Your maneur should be placed on top of your green element. Most often I have had 4 elements to work with. Simply make layers in your bed about 2 inches thick and repeat the pattern until your bed is about 3 inches from the top of your frame. The one exception is in green grass and chicken maneur. Grass should only be one inch thick and chicken maneur should be scattered about no more than 1/2 inch thick and it does not need to cover every square inch. Both grass and chicken maneur can get very hot and the roots of your plants may not like it. For the other maneurs use stuff that has been sitting in the stall or in a pile for at least one year.

Once your bed is filled it is time to creat your planting layer. For this I mix some top soil with an aged maneur to create a 2 inch top layer where my seeds will go. You can also used a purchased planting mix if you are inclined. I mixed a planting mix into the topsoil and maneur the first year but didn't bother the second year.

Now your bed is ready for seed. The bed will be spongy feeling. As time goes by over the summer the bed will sink as it composts and turns into rich mulch and soil. You can add your favorite earth worms at any time. Buy the end of the season the soil will only be about 5 or 6 inches thick but still thick enough to nourish all your plants.

Once your layers are in you never till it or turn it. It is very easy to weed as the soil is so light the roots of the weeds just come right out. Of course the framed beds are great because you can sit on the frame and do your work, and you don't have to bend down so far. It is also easy to cover the beds with plastic or netting if needed to protect from frost or sun or even insects like grasshoppers

After your harvest you can rebuild your bed in the fall or wait till next spring. I also have a lasagna bed in a giant old tractor tire that holds my more sensitive eggplants. They like it warm and there is no guaranteed warm even in the summer around here. They are doing great.

Building the frames for raised beds was great but a little spendy. Cedar or redwood is not cheap. Some people use plain old pine and line the bed walls with black plastic before filling it. The plastic keeps the wetness from working on the pine and composting that too. If you use a treated wood or OPC board you certainly want to line it to keep the chemicals out of your soil. The bottom of the bed does not need to be lined. Using lessor woods of course costs less but presents these other problems. Do not nail your bed frame together but use 2 or 3 inch wood screws for a tigher more durable hold.

Because I enjoyed my garden so much, over the winter I had fantasy of increasing my growing area but dh said no more money was to go to building frames with cedar and I just didn't want plastic lined beds... so guess I was to be forced to my knees. I decided that if a lasagna bed could be built in a frame it could also be built on plane old land. I had a low spot in the earth near the beds so I decided I could fill it up.

Following the same procedure for the beds I built up the land with first cardboard because there was a lot of grass to kill, then layers. Eventually it raised about four inches above the surrounding land becasue the land was a low spot. Right now I have a multitude of vegetables in there... 5 zuccini plants, 14 cabbage, 16 broccoli, 6 cauliflower 2 butternut, 2 cucumber, 3 borage, 2 acorn, and a few unknown squash and a row of giant sunflower. Since it took me so long to make this bed in the spring as it is fairly large, my planting was late and hence my harvest too. Butternuts are here now but Im not sure they will fully develop before the first frost which could be any day now.

I did make some errors with this large bed. I put too many grass clippings in. We had such an abundance of grass and no place to keep it it all ended up in there and some plants really didn't like it. It took out almost all of my green cabbage and a couple of broccoli in areas where it was thickest. Red cabbage didnt seem to mind... so this is why I say only one inch of green grass per grass layer. Afer harvest I am considering running a the plow through it to mix all that grass in. We are fortunate to have a tractor but a small roto tiller or even by hand with a pitchfork could mend my error as the soil is light and easy to work.

I also used lasagna method for my potatoes. I have an 18 foot row of piled layers about 3 feet wide. The potatoes loved it last year. This year I learned about not watering potatoes from above too frequently. They got watered more than they should have because they are right next to my new bed. This caused potato blight, black spots on the leaves towards the end of the season. The potatoes are still good but should not be used for seed next year. A deep freeze kills blight in the soil.

This fall I will be constructing a new smaller lasagna bed... one designed specifically for garlic. This too will not be in a frame but flat on the land.

So far I have managed to sell produce at the farmers market, supply some neighbors with veggies, and put away 95 veggie portions via canning or freezing. I still may be able to eek out a few more before the deep freeze hits... and this does not include the potatoes or carrots which I haven't dug up yet. Almost sustainable for the winter, but not quite. Next year bigger and better is on its way.

So here's to my favorite time and place... sunset in the garden will my favorite wine, cats chasing the butterflies, husband working on the roof in the cool of the evening, dog asleep in the grass, neighbors bicycling by, rabbits scurrying though the sage, eagle calling in the distance, sky alive with clouds of fire http://r24.imgfast.net/users/2411/23/55/04/smiles/291147.gif

[Carmen]

Great thread, useful and practical. I am storing fresh water in old wine barrels. Mms will be used to rid them of any nasties. I am fortunate in being an ex vinyard owner so have barrels available but they are available in wine making areas as barrels can only be reused a couple of times.

Lord Sid, you have obviously experienced some harrowing outback experiences from the comments of your posts! As far as water goes in a dry land, there is no better advice than permaculture offers for conservation of water. Heavy mulching of growing things helps considerably in conserving water. Also contouring and humping and hollowing. The more trees we plant, the more moisture we attract. There is a great video I watched on a thread the other day that was so inspiring. I'm pffto find it now. (or soon!)

Other way of conservation of food is to stop wasting it. The amount of food that people throw out, especially young people, is mind boggling! Maybe a bit of hunger would stop this nonsense! What is wrong with your nose to check a use by date. Works for me.

Thank you Seikou Kishi, a great thread.

Okay, I found it. It's called greening the desert and it is post nineteen of ulli's I love this, thread. It's well worth watching. Sorry I can't get it up for you. Maybe some helpful soul here will do it.

[Lord Sidious]

Great thread, useful and practical. I am storing fresh water in old wine barrels. Mms will be used to rid them of any nasties. I am fortunate in being an ex vinyard owner so have barrels available but they are available in wine making areas as barrels can only be reused a couple of times.

Lord Sid, you have obviously experienced some harrowing outback experiences from the comments of your posts! As far as water goes in a dry land, there is no better advice than permaculture offers for conservation of water. Heavy mulching of growing things helps considerably in conserving water. Also contouring and humping and hollowing. The more trees we plant, the more moisture we attract. There is a great video I watched on a thread the other day that was so inspiring. I'm pffto find it now. (or soon!)

Other way of conservation of food is to stop wasting it. The amount of food that people throw out, especially young people, is mind boggling! Maybe a bit of hunger would stop this nonsense! What is wrong with your nose to check a use by date. Works for me.

Thank you Seikou Kishi, a great thread.

Okay, I found it. It's called greening the desert and it is post nineteen of ulli's I love this, thread. It's well worth watching. Sorry I can't get it up for you. Maybe some helpful soul here will do it.

Yeah, I have suffered heat exhaustion in the bush on a few occasions.
One occasion resulted in a neck injury that I still have.

[Carmen]

Hmm, I could feel you going back there in you mind and reliving it!! Maybe it's best to 'make home' somewhere safe and not to be traveling. In Aussie I would be doing what they do in Coober Peedi (spelling!!) and going underground. Safe from bush fires. I don't know why people in Aussie, especially in high fire risk areas,don't build underground. Any comments on this from other Aussies?

[Muzz]

Here’s an excellent example of what can be accomplished with a year round greenhouse in cold weather climate. This particular greenhouse is in Colorado which is cold for much of the year, but inside this cozy dome greenhouse, the plants are growing happily.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hAX0A6yfb0k#!

[nottelling]

Hmm, I could feel you going back there in you mind and reliving it!! Maybe it's best to 'make home' somewhere safe and not to be traveling. In Aussie I would be doing what they do in Coober Peedi (spelling!!) and going underground. Safe from bush fires. I don't know why people in Aussie, especially in high fire risk areas,don't build underground. Any comments on this from other Aussies?

It's not feasible to build underground in many of the populated areas of Australia - see the recent Brisbane floods for more information. Also, there seems to be a long-standing official disdain for it. An interesting case from the 19th century comes to mind immediately -

Source: http://www.broadfordhistorical.org.au/photo-gallery/


“Henricke Neslen came to Australia in 1861 and was not long in the colony before he began to live a secret life in Victoria’s Tallarook ranges. There he built a secret underground dwelling and this mountain hideaway became his home for more than a decade. If he had chosen to, he could have been employed on any of the stations, or at the railway, tannery, paper or flour mills, he could have lived in Tallarook and gained work there – the record shows that he was a capable man. But instead he chose a secret, solitary life unnoticed by anyone on the plains below.

In 1880 his underground abode was discovered and Nelsen was arrested. Upon investigation, the authorities found he possessed ‘every item necessary for a well-kept home’ including one or two books in English, a torn Bible, and, nearby in a deep cave a well-stocked larder. Nelsen denies living there, but the evidence found on site was overwhelming and included a dated train timetable with his name on it. Nelsen was charged with vagrancy and sentenced to six months’ hard labour.”

Keep in mind that this was the same timeframe and same area where people were allowed to happily live in slab huts in the middle of nowhere all around Victorian ranges. Strange.

But despite any lingering official disdain for living underground in Australia due to fears of "clandestine marijuana setups" or "survivalist bunkers", it does make good sense. Underground dwellings are warm in winter and cool in summer, due to the excellent insulation provided by mother earth. They are bushfire resistant. So long as the design is well drained, they don't suffer groundwater incursion. They are low-profile which makes them an excellent choice of dwelling to maximise the natural beauty of an area and with appropriate thought and design they can be the centrepiece of a comfortable and functional eco-friendly, off-grid home.

Here's one which was advertised for sale in South Australia a couple of years back:

http://images.realestateview.com.au/pics/705/Lot-202-Brooks-Road-Clarendon-SA-5157-Real-Estate-photo-1-large-2009705.jpg
http://images.realestateview.com.au/pics/705/Lot-202-Brooks-Road-Clarendon-SA-5157-Floorplan-2009705.gif
http://www.realestateview.com.au/Real-Estate/lot-202-brooks-road-clarendon/Property-Details-buy-rural-2009705_S.html

I'd definitely live in that.

So long as they meet official building standards, there shouldn't be too many legislative or regulatory problems building an earth-mounded or underground home in Australia, but there ight be some bias against it by the local council.

Personally I like some of the design concepts in the "$50 and Up Underground Dwelling" by Mike Oehler (http://www.undergroundhousing.com/index.html)

EDIT: I found a document which details planning/specifications in Australia. It was written specifically for Coober Pedy (which are usually tunnelled underground structures), but the specs it contains conform to Australian building standards, making it useful for someone who wants to build an earth mounded structure as well.

http://www.cooberpedy.sa.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/Dugout_Guidelines_amended_17July07.pdf

[Seikou-Kishi]

Seikou- I think you mean lady bugs...

No no, I definitely meant ladybirds, but it's nice of you to translate me for those who don't speak English ;-)

[Calz]

Free to view for two more days ... of interest to this thread:

http://foodmatters.tv/screeningeventcinema

[Arrowwind]

Seikou- I think you mean lady bugs...

No no, I definitely meant ladybirds, but it's nice of you to translate me for those who don't speak English ;-)

Well you certainly did mean Ladybirds, but here in the USA they are called Ladybugs... as I just found out there are two popular names depending on where you live. We have so many this year that I have them in my house too!
Still, how to get them onto the infested plant in sufficient quantity? I spent a few days moving ladybirds onto the plants but it was never enough. For infestations the soap worked really well. But I have no doubt that they do help quite a bit generally keeping the aphid population down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccinellidae

[Arrowwind]

Here’s an excellent example of what can be accomplished with a year round greenhouse in cold weather climate. This particular greenhouse is in Colorado which is cold for much of the year, but inside this cozy dome greenhouse, the plants are growing happily.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hAX0A6yfb0k#!

We are now looking at building a green house. My husband, who is an architect, built a couple of geo. greenhouses a long time ago back in Eugene. Now he is not that interested in it now and Im trying to pick his brain as to why. I love the feeling of these kinds of structures!

Part of it may have to do with cost. Certainly the greenhouse in this video cost a fair amount to put together.
We live at 6,000 feet also... as I just found out... I had been thinking we were at 6,500

They seem to grow year round in this model but I wonder if they go for weeks on end at 20 below zero like we do here?
We are in a particularly cold and windy valley between two mountain ranges and cloud cover can go on for days as storms go through.

So our plan is a rectangular greenhouse,, about 10 x 16 and we have a fair amount of building scraps around from the construction of our house so that eliminates some cost, as it is already pain for. Our back north wall will be insulated and solid and lined with 55 gallon black water drums that have already acquired. There will be a solid roof covering about 3/4 of the ceiling. We will use the same kind of polycarbonate plastic for windows. I think in the long run it will be as efficient as possible for our weather conditions... just dont think we will be able to grow anything in Dec, Jan, Feb and half of March... We could heat it like our neighbors do but what they pay for heating their green house just doesn't pencil out. They gotta be loosing money and you just cant grow enought stuff nor market enough stuff around here to make it pay. ...

I wonder how a 16 foot diameter geo greenhouse would function... compared to what he is currently thinking.

That geo green house is a dream come true! for someone...

[Seikou-Kishi]

Seikou- I think you mean lady bugs...

No no, I definitely meant ladybirds, but it's nice of you to translate me for those who don't speak English ;-)

Well you certainly did mean Ladybirds, but here in the USA they are called Ladybugs... as I just found out there are two popular names depending on where you live. We have so many this year that I have them in my house too!
Still, how to get them onto the infested plant in sufficient quantity? I spent a few days moving ladybirds onto the plants but it was never enough. For infestations the soap worked really well. But I have no doubt that they do help quite a bit generally keeping the aphid population down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccinellidae

I read (on the page you link, actually) that entomologists prefer not to call them ladybugs because they're not bugs, but I'd say they're certainly not birds either :D

[Cjay]

Recommended video of Bill Mollison, one of the originators of permaculture.

In Grave Danger of Falling Food Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGc2OMzD1lg
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGc2OMzD1lg

In Grave Danger of Falling Food Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_HO8qmAeSA
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_HO8qmAeSA

In Grave Danger of Falling Food Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbAznelIUaM
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbAznelIUaM

In Grave Danger of Falling Food Part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv0LRyFrdiQ
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv0LRyFrdiQ

[Arrowwind]

[I read (on the page you link, actually) that entomologists prefer not to call them ladybugs because they're not bugs, but I'd say they're certainly not birds either :D

They're not bugs? Well I'll be danged.

[nearing]

[I read (on the page you link, actually) that entomologists prefer not to call them ladybugs because they're not bugs, but I'd say they're certainly not birds either :D

They're not bugs? Well I'll be danged.



Where I come from all insects are bugs. It's just slang. It doesn't mean they necessarily 'bug' us (though al lot do!). And ladybugs/birds are certainly insects.

[Calz]

UDDERLY RIDICULOUS

:cow:

Judge: Americans do not have right to choose food
Decision in farm dispute bars families from drinking milk from their own cows

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: October 06, 2011
12:50 am Eastern

By Bob Unruh
© 2011 WND

A Wisconsin judge has decided – in a fight over families' access to milk from cows they own – that Americans "do not have a fundamental right to consume the milk from their own cow."

The ruling comes from Circuit Court Judge Patrick J. Fiedler in a court battle involving a number of families who owned their own cows, but boarded them on a single farm.

The judge said the arrangement is a "dairy farm" and, therefore, is subject to the rules and regulations of the state of Wisconsin.

"It's always a surprise when a judge says you don't have the fundamental right to consume the foods of your choice," said Pete Kennedy, president of the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund, which worked on the case on behalf of the farmers and the owners of the milk-producing cows.

The judge's original ruling came in a consolidation of two cases that presented similar situations: Cows being maintained and milked on farms for the benefit of non-resident owners. He refused to grant a summary judgment declaring such arrangements legitimate, deciding instead to favor the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection, which opposed them.

(Story continues below)

"Plaintiffs argue that they have a fundamental right to possess, use and enjoy their property and therefore have a fundamental right to own a cow, or a heard (sic) of cows, and to use their cow(s) in a manner that does not cause harm to third parties. They argue that they have a fundamental right to privacy to consume the food of their choice for themselves and their families and therefore have a fundamental right to consume unpasteurized milk from their cows," the judge wrote.

Bunk, he concluded.

"They do not simply own a cow that they board at a farm. Instead, plaintiffs operate a dairy farm. If plaintiffs want to continue to operate their dairy farm then they must do so in a way that complies with the laws of Wisconsin."

He cited an earlier consent decree involving one of the farm locations, which had been accused of being the source of a "Campylobachter jejuni infection" and said there are state reasons to require standards and licenses.

Identifying the cases as the "Grassway plaintiffs" and the "Zinniker plaintiffs," the judge said both were in violation of state rules and regulations.

It was, however, when the plaintiffs petitioned the judge for a "clarification" of his order that he let fly his judicial temperament.

"The court denied plaintiffs' motion for summary judgment, which means the following:


"(1) no, plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to own and use a dairy cow or a diary (sic) herd;
"(2) no, plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to consume the milk from their own cow;
"(3) no, plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to board their cow at the farm of a farmer;
"(4) no, the Zinniker plaintiffs' private contract does not fall outside the scope of the state's police power;
"(5) no, plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to produce and consume the foods of their choice; and
"(6) no, the DATCP did not act in an ultra vires manner because it had jurisdiction to regulate the Zinniker plaintiffs' conduct."
"It is clear from their motion to clarify that the plaintiffs still fail to recognize that they are not merely attempting to enforce their 'right' to own a cow and board it at a farm. Instead, plaintiffs operate a dairy farm," he wrote.

Kennedy said the ruling is outlandish.

"Here you have a situation where a group of people, a couple of individuals, boarded their cows which they wholly owned, with Zinniker farms, and paid them a fee for the boarding."

He continued, "The judge said people have no fundamental right to acquire, possess and use your own property."

The dispute is part of a larger battle going on between private interests and state and federal regulators over just exactly who makes the decision on the difference between a privately held asset and a commercial producer.

The Los Angeles Times recently profiled a case in which prosecutors had arrested the owner of a health food market and two others on charges of allegedly illegally producing unpasteurized dairy products.

The arrests of James Cecil Stewart, Sharon Ann Palmer and Eugenie Bloch just a few weeks ago advanced the government's crackdown on the sale of so-called raw dairy products.

But Fiedler's arguments weren't unique.

Attorneys for the federal government have argued in a lawsuit still pending in federal court in Iowa that individuals have no "fundamental right" to obtain their food of choice.

The brief was filed early in 2010 in support of a motion to dismiss a lawsuit filed by the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund over the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's ban on the interstate sale of raw milk.

"There is no 'deeply rooted' historical tradition of unfettered access to foods of all kinds," states the document signed by U.S. Attorney Stephanie Rose, assistant Martha Fagg and Roger Gural, trial attorney for the U.S. Department of Justice.

"Plaintiffs' assertion of a 'fundamental right to their own bodily and physical health, which includes what foods they do and do not choose to consume for themselves and their families' is similarly unavailing because plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to obtain any food they wish," the government has argued.

WND has reported several times on fed crackdowns on producers of raw milk for friends and neighbors, including when agents arrived to inspect a private property belonging to Dan Allgyer in Pennsylvania at 5 a.m.

The Iowa case alleges the federal restrictions on raw milk are a violation of the U.S. Constitution, according to a report at Natural News.

The federal attorneys want the case dismissed.

"The interest claimed by plaintiffs could be framed more narrowly as a right to 'provide themselves and their families with the foods of their own choice,'" the government document states. But the attorneys say that right doesn't exist.

"The FDA essentially believes that nobody has the right to choose what to eat or drink," said the Natural News site, which explains it covers topics that allow individuals to make positive changes in their health, environmental sensitivity and consumer choices.

"You are only 'allowed' to eat or drink what the FDA gives you permission to. There is no inherent right or God-given right to consume any foods from nature without the FDA's consent."

The Natural News report continued, "The state, in other words, may override your food decisions and deny you free access to the foods and beverages you wish to consume. And the state may do this for completely unscientific reasons – even just political reasons – all at their whim."

The report blames the aggressive campaign against raw milk on large commercial dairy interests, "because it threatens the commercial milk business."

The reason cannot be safety, the report said, since a report from the Weston A. Price Foundation revealed that from 1980 to 2005 there were 10 times more illnesses from pasteurized milk than from raw milk.

The federal government attorneys say the FDA's goal is to prevent disease, and that's why the "ban on the interstate sale of unpasteurized milk" was adopted.

The attorneys conceded that states ordinarily are expected to regulate intrastate activity but noted, "it is within HHS's authority … to institute an intrastate ban as well."

Natural News reported the ban could be seen as violating the 10th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which leaves to states all powers not specifically designated in the Constitution for the federal body.

Read more: Judge: Americans have no right to choose food http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=352249#ixzz1aCcDBwVs

[nottelling]

OMG... no, OMFG!

I'm stunned, shocked, flabbergasted. If the families in question lawfully (lol) own their cows, then decide to lawfully (lol) drink the milk from those cows, that is "not a fundamental right"? Somebody remove these clowns. Fair dinkum - that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Corporatism influencing the legislature and the judiciary, regardless of how covert or indirect that influence may be? Bureaucracy gone stupid? ...And all because they want everyone to drink their milk from the same source? I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist, but there's something a little off here - by off, I mean like a bucket of prawns in the hot sun.

Codex ailementarycanalus (whatever) in pure, vivid, living colour.

[Calz]

OMG... no, OMFG!

I'm stunned, shocked, flabbergasted. If the families in question lawfully (lol) own their cows, then decide to lawfully (lol) drink the milk from those cows, that is "not a fundamental right"? Somebody remove these clowns. Fair dinkum - that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Corporatism influencing the legislature and the judiciary, regardless of how covert or indirect that influence may be? Bureaucracy gone stupid? ...And all because they want everyone to drink their milk from the same source? I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist, but there's something a little off here - by off, I mean like a bucket of prawns in the hot sun.

Codex ailementarycanalus (whatever) in pure, vivid, living colour.

Takes things another step beyond *selling* fresh cows milk ...

[Dawn]

I LOVE this thread! I'd like to include some info on underground solar greenhouses. Although I don't have my own at the moment I've been studying this plan and it is really efficient... and workable in very cold climates. The author developed it based on the food storage cave his local gophers created near his garden. Here's the link:
http://www.undergroundhousing.com/greenhouse_book.html And here is a video tour of his original design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hV8Teiskfo

[Dawn]

Here is a really interesting idea for a basement or insulated room without light. You can grow plants in total darkness with a metal rod connected to a metal sheet somewhere in the sunlight. In fact, if the plants growing in total darkness are too close to the metal rod they will 'sunburn'! This could be a potential solution to really cold climates or apartment dwellers who have no space with sunlight to grow plants. No electricity is required;
http://rexresearch.com/agro2/0agro1.htm#elxplntgrowth

[Flash]

Anyone going to start doing this I would suggest that they study what they want to grow, how it would fit into their local ecosystem and what that crop needs in the way of water etc.

Thank you for reminding us. Everytimes I see a thread like this one, I have a tendency not to read it because most of the suggestions are for warm or temperate climates and are not relevant in a very cold climate.

What I would like to find is how to make small greenhouses in basements for example to start seeds growing and how to plant earlier in the season to avoid the seeds to freeze. And how to heat the whole stuff without any gaz or oil.

Finally, may be how to handle a rifle to be able to hunt.......lol, rifles are forbidden in Canada unless you are a registered hunter, and it takes time to get the permit.

[Strat]

This may be offtopic, but I don't want to start a new thread for this. Here is my second broccoli harvest so far (maybe the last, I'll know in a week or so):

2nd Harvest (http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv43/jamesphotobucket3/random/broc1.jpg)

Here is what a broccoli looks like when it is getting ready to flower. See the bulbs/heads separating? Maybe next week it will flower. I purposely left it so that I could show this to you folks. (http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv43/jamesphotobucket3/random/broc2.jpg)

[nearing]

This may be offtopic, but I don't want to start a new thread for this. Here is my second broccoli harvest so far (maybe the last, I'll know in a week or so):

2nd Harvest (http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv43/jamesphotobucket3/random/broc1.jpg)

Here is what a broccoli looks like when it is getting ready to flower. See the bulbs/heads separating? Maybe next week it will flower. I purposely left it so that I could show this to you folks. (http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv43/jamesphotobucket3/random/broc2.jpg)

Gorgeous! You are lucky to be in an area where you can get broccoli in February!

[Strat]

Thanks! That was my first try at broccoli and they definitely exceeded my expectations.

In about a month I'll start tomatoes, they grow really well in FL. The vines can exceed 8' in length. It's actually a bit of an issue finding ways to keep them off the ground.

[Arrowwind]

AnThank you for reminding us. Everytimes I see a thread like this one, I have a tendency not to read it because most of the suggestions are for warm or temperate climates and are not relevant in a very cold climate.

What I would like to find is how to make small greenhouses in basements for example to start seeds growing and how to plant earlier in the season to avoid the seeds to freeze. And how to heat the whole stuff without any gaz or oil.

Finally, may be how to handle a rifle to be able to hunt.......lol, rifles are forbidden in Canada unless you are a registered hunter, and it takes time to get the permit.

We are in planning stages for our green house. You would love it. we are in a very cold climate with a 60 tp 70 day growing season. The green house will be about 20 x 10. The north wall will be solid and could be constructed into a earthen slope if desired but we dont have that so it will be a solid insulated wall lined with 50 gallon drums filled with water. Facing south it will have 2 doors one in the east and one in the west for good cross ventilation in the summer as I will want to grow in there in the summer as well as spring and fall. We will have an electric heater for those few days or nights in may and june and september when it may be needed. on the south side we are thinking of putting in a passive solar air panel... made out of coke cans in a about a 5 x 12 frame painted black. The heat up during the day even if its cold out, from the sun and blow with a small fan hot air up to 100 degrees into the greenhouse, heating up the soil and drums etc. Heres a site about them.. lots of videos on their construction available.. the panel may stand vertical with only storage behind it in the green house or it may go on the roof
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KL35Z4_VFs We are hoping to extend our growing season by 6 weeks on each end of the summer.,, but I think I may be able to grow some greens up until thanksgiving... end of november.

We will not use glass but a double thick poly carbonate. One fan will also go in above a door to help keep it cool in the summer.

[Bo Atkinson]

Here is an update: Yet another experimental "insulating" of a greenhouse.... The main feature is that it kept soil well above freezing (in zone 5a). Though reduced sun angle here begs for some LED lights. Yet this size provided kale and mustard greens all winter. The point is that without added insulation, greenhouses freeze dry the plants.

I've added the concept of insulating a skirt around the greenhouse.... To help 'annualize' the summer energy, kinda. My eye lid currently is a crudely welded steel frame with two layers of bubble pack sheets, hand-rolled-seams-stapled. The rest of structure is ferrocement arches, with cardboard and scrap foam, all covered with rubber-roof-sheet. The minimum R value is maybe 2 or 3.

http://harmoniouspalette.com/EyelidGreenhouse/EyelidGreenhouse.html

The doubled layer poly carbide is a form of insulation. I had clad a big dome with that in 1995. Before the end of the 10 year 'guarantee' it was developing opacity (hazing-yellowing, which reduces sunlight entry). It's a shame that the plastic industry refuses advanced development of greenhouse materials. Owned buy big oil, no doubt they don't want more-durable greenhouses for the people. Ultimately i' might upgrade insulation further.

[Strat]

I thought the frost killed my broccolis but they are strong. Here is that pic I promised, a broccoli when it is flowering:

Flowering broccoli (http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv43/jamesphotobucket3/random/broc3.jpg)

The flowers are edible. Actually the whole plant is edible, not sure about the roots though.

The rebar in the background is one of several. When it freezes I lay plastic over the broccolis to protect them from frost. I put rebar in key points to hold the plastic up. The PVC elbow piece keeps the rebar from poking holes in the plastic.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Bump.................

[seleka]

ok I saw this earlier. Did a search on PA for walipini which showed none and then greenhouses and I think this is the right thread for this, if not, let me know. This can be made for $300 it says.
http://www.bensoninstitute.org/Publication/Manuals/Walipini.pdf
http://www.trueactivist.com/build-a-300-underground-greenhouse-for-year-round-gardening/

qB8AE_H_YTc

[risveglio]

ok I saw this earlier. Did a search on PA for walipini which showed none and then greenhouses and I think this is the right thread for this, if not, let me know. This can be made for $300 it says.
http://www.bensoninstitute.org/Publication/Manuals/Walipini.pdf
http://www.trueactivist.com/build-a-300-underground-greenhouse-for-year-round-gardening/

qB8AE_H_YTc

This is pretty sweet, thanks.

[Conchis]

Ok...so this is probably going to make some of you guys think that I've lost it, but I encourage all of you to read a book called The Humanure Handbook by a guy named Joseph Jenkins. (I have NO financial interest in this thing.) I starting reading it because I am interested in building a super-adobe home on a little piece of land that I design using permaculture techniques. Of course, one of the tenets of permaculture is to work with the process and not against it. The use of a composting toilet is a part of that whole concept. After reading this book I have to say that I've become convinced that this is indeed a necessary change that everyone should consider in their own lives.

[sunflower]

http://humanurehandbook.com/instructions.html

This is a valuable site if you want to watch videos, download the book and get instructions on how to proceed to build your own "lovable loo"!

[Ron Mauer Sr]

http://humanurehandbook.com/instructions.html

This is a valuable site if you want to watch videos, download the book and get instructions on how to proceed to build your own "lovable loo"!

The sawdust toilet would become very valuable when electricity is not available for pumping water.

Although I've not tried this experiment, only heard that it worked, this may be a way to avoid building compost bins. Place a trash compactor bag (it is heavy duty plastic) inside the holding bucket. When removed, place the full bags in direct sunlight next to the garden for a few months. Composting is done inside the bag. No odor when complete.

[Carmen]

I've built a glasshouse on to my verander, enclosing a large patch of garden. It's brilliant. I got two big windows from a friend and the rest is glasslike plastic. Sorry can't remember the proper name for it. I got the idea from a book called Solviva. At the moment I have about forty tomatoes plants, several rows of potatoes, (I had those already in the ground, the glasshouse was built around them) grape, cucumbers, peppers, lemon, lime and egg plant. So, my harvest should be good. It's also so handy having everything at my fingertips. The verander is brilliant for propagating and seed nursery. A warm, sunny, sheltered spot to work in.

[Conchis]

http://humanurehandbook.com/instructions.html

This is a valuable site if you want to watch videos, download the book and get instructions on how to proceed to build your own "lovable loo"!



The sawdust toilet would become very valuable when electricity is not available for pumping water.

Although I've not tried this experiment, only heard that it worked, this may be a way to avoid building compost bins. Place a trash compactor bag (it is heavy duty plastic) inside the holding bucket. When removed, place the full bags in direct sunlight next to the garden for a few months. Composting is done inside the bag. No odor when complete.

Ron I haven't done this either, yet, but I think it's in my future. I've watched multiple videos on youtube and read this book and it appears that if this is done correctly (which everyone says is simple), there is no odor at any point in the process. I like your idea though because it would get the temps up and hold them there for a period which would be beneficial. The guy that writes the book says that this step is not necessary, he does say, that people act like they should don a hazmat suit to perform the tasks associated, but in reality, wiping one's ass proves to be more direct contact than any of the associated tasks and he doesn't advocate that people avoid that chore.....hahahaha....he's pretty funny.

[Conchis]

I've built a glasshouse on to my verander, enclosing a large patch of garden. It's brilliant. I got two big windows from a friend and the rest is glasslike plastic. Sorry can't remember the proper name for it. I got the idea from a book called Solviva. At the moment I have about forty tomatoes plants, several rows of potatoes, (I had those already in the ground, the glasshouse was built around them) grape, cucumbers, peppers, lemon, lime and egg plant. So, my harvest should be good. It's also so handy having everything at my fingertips. The verander is brilliant for propagating and seed nursery. A warm, sunny, sheltered spot to work in.

Hi Carmen, is the plastic, plexiglass? I'd love to have a greenhouse. I have a little sort of lean to kind of plastic seed starter. I'd love to see a photo of what you put together.

[Tigger]

Bumping this thread. It’s way more important than tracking political shenanigans ;)