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Omni connexae!
30th September 2011, 23:06
Hello, please listen...

It is true that we experience that there are “things” external to us, for we perceive a background separating them from us and from each other. This may be a landscape or the walls of a room.

In such case, it is proper to say that the background is grounded, for it is attached to the earth. However, we can also experience separate birds when they fly, even though the earth and nothing attached to it is in view.

We experience their flight against the clouds and against each other. If there were only one bird in the sky, no clouds and no land in view, we could see the flapping of a bird’s wings but could not experience its movement through the sky.

Yet, even if we had never seen a bird before, we would know that it was a separate thing. We would know this, simply because a bird always has a recognizable character and not because we intuit a space through which it flies or even because it “emerges” from a background.

Empty space has no character and is nothing to the senses. A background with no character is, to us, no background at all.

Our experience of separate things cannot be purely a matter of spatial or temporal segregation. The “now” and “not-now,” like the “here” and “not-here,” are inextricably conjoined in reality.

They are only separate in the mind. The statement—“a thing cannot exist unless it exists at a certain time and place”—seems fine on its face. However, the expression, “a certain time and place” implies that the “time and place” we are talking about are unique, in the sense that they include no other time and place.

This means that “here” must be a point and “now” must be an instant. From this it follows that the extent of “here” is naught, and the duration of “now” is naught. Thus, the originally quoted axiom runs afoul of this one: “a thing that has no spatial extent and exists for no time at all does not exist.”

Further, the division of time into instants and space into points denies the reality of motion as a matter of logic; for nothing can move in increments of naught. This is the crux of Zeno’s paradox. As Bergson put it, such a view of motion “implies the absurd proposition that movement is made of immobilities.”

Reality does not consist of separate spatio-temporal existents (“beings”).

Rather, reality is all that happens.

What we recognize as a separate thing is not a “gestalt” in the sense that its identity is due to the fact that, as a “whole,” it contains qualities not found in the “parts”; for “whole” and “parts” are never fully determinable in terms of separate times and locations. Everything in the world is interrelated and interconnected.

Ultimately, separateness is a judgment and not something independent of the mind.

Nothing real is unchanging, and “being” is no more than recognition. The recognition process is able to identify that which is external to us, whether or not the sensory experience reveals “things as they really are”; for there is every reason to believe that what is similar, whenever encountered, will excite a similar sensory experience...

In this way, we are able to learn that “things are what they are and not something else.”

This inevitably occurs in the context of a thing doing us good or ill, for our memories tend to focus on “what matters.” It is not necessary to know what an experience “really is.” It is only necessary to recognize that things as experienced can have an effect on our wellbeing.

In fact, the expressions, “the thing as it really is” or “the being of beings” is really quite meaningless; for a thing has many aspects and is always subject to change.

The “essence of things” or “the being of beings” is a kind of illusion owing to our inability to perceive very gradual changes. Nothing really “is.” Everything “happens.”

Perceiving a thing cannot entail knowing all that may be predicated of it at any instant, for this is not only beyond our sensory powers but is also quite impossible to achieve.

aranuk
30th September 2011, 23:20
What are you smokin'? I want some o' that!

Well not really.

Stan

Omni connexae!
1st October 2011, 02:06
What are you smokin'? I want some o' that!

Well not really.

Stan

If only I was smoking something...

then it might not make sense...

Darla Ken Pearce
1st October 2011, 03:01
We have forgotten that we are multi-dimensional beings who have lived lives as that bird you watch in flight. Even that Panther laying in the sun. We are both observer and observed. We each live on many levels and beings and are not just the body, mind, spirit and soul we see in the mirror. Rest easy and ask your guides, as we all know these matters by heart. While in duality, it was necessary not to remember but those days have ended now.

The great black holes and voids are just our own playgrounds for creating new vistas. We do this even as humans daydreaming. Yes. Who knows what kingdoms we have already created that we just haven't realized. Once full consciousness returns ~ so will our full memories of past, present and future and we can continue filling up endless voids and black holes with our own great creations and with full consciousness. It is no joke that we are creators with wonders to behold. There is no end to our creative instincts and ability ~ as we go forth into a new day and dawn. And so it is...

Omni connexae!
1st October 2011, 03:24
'allo Darla!


We have forgotten that we are multi-dimensional beings

Wouldn't it be wonderful? =)


who have lived lives as that bird you watch in flight. Even that Panther laying in the sun. We are both observer and observed. We each live on many levels and beings and are not just the body, mind, spirit and soul we see in the mirror. Rest easy and ask your guides, as we all know these matters by heart. While in duality, it was necessary not to remember but those days have ended now.

Yhyh, nature is beautiful etc.

Just like that mosquito in flight... just like that 'wolf' who eats human flesh, laying in the sun.

I guess I observe... and have also been observed... shrug. You talk about beings and many levels etc... what? I dunno... perhaps your analogically talking about how our views and expiriences shape ourselves, how we are 'on a different wave' because all our views and expiriences are different etc... or perhaps your talking about something 'inherent' within the universe.... dunno.

Maybe you should make it clearer next time?


The great black holes and voids are just our own playgrounds for creating new vistas.

If I may push for elaboration...


We do this even as humans daydreaming. Yes. Who knows what kingdoms we have already created that we just haven't realized. Once full consciousness returns ~ so will our full memories of past, present and future and we can continue filling up endless voids and black holes with our own great creations and with full consciousness. It is no joke that we are creators with wonders to behold. There is no end to our creative instincts and ability ~ as we go forth into a new day and dawn. And so it is...

So goood news then?:confused:

Dunno, sounds like a long way of saying: we can create!

Perhaps society hasn't given, such like us who believe in 'creation' (or our ability to create), the proper voice?

or perhaps we is crazy?

who knows?

=)

TraineeHuman
1st October 2011, 03:24
Hi Omni connexae. Eastern philosophy and Western mysticism have always taught that, strictly speaking, the notion of a world "out there" is just an illusion. Sorry! These days, that's also maybe the most fundamental assumption of quantum physics and quantum cosmology, and it's even taught as a fact in sociology and social work courses, not to mention in Western philosophy. So I'm sorry, but nobody can really ever separate themselves completely from the rest of the world. Even the concept of being able to do so is ultimately nonsensical, and that's now been proved to be almost necessarily so.

In the history of Western philosophy, Immanuel Kant noted, much like you, that there appear to be things external to us, but that we never directly experience them in full (which he also proved). He then postulated that there must be "things in themselves" that exist all over the place even though we can never ever experience these. This assumption of his was eventually proved to be 100% wrong by the mid-to-late twentieth century in the world of philosophy. But only after lots of agonising over how can one tell the difference between what is "appearance" and what is "reality". Ancient Indian philosophy had already gone through a huge and similar enquiry in the sixth to fourth centuries BC, and reached a similar conclusion.

However, you deserve to be congratulated because your very insightful conclusion that "separateness is a creation of the human mind" was one of the big conclusions Kant came to when he considered these questions.

When you talk about "now" or "here" as just being "points", I'm afraid you're making the mistake of confusing the word with the thing it refers to. Again, sorry, but the truth is the truth. (Sorry if that sounds patronising or whatever, but I do have a postgrad degree in philosophy, and you can check on all this by doing enough reading and study in philosophy -- if you really want to. Particularly of the philosopher Martin Heidegger, who was one of the most influential on twentieth century philosophy.) If you fully see past thoughts/concepts/words to the meaning underlying them, you might discover one particular truth that certain all Western and Eastern philosophy agrees on. And that is that the eternal "now" (and "here") is all that exists. By the way, I'm not sure that "points" exist at all, because they're nothing but theoretically imagined concepts.

Omni connexae!
1st October 2011, 04:03
Hey Trainee,


Hi Omni connexae. Eastern philosophy and Western mysticism have always taught that, strictly speaking, the notion of a world "out there" is just an illusion.

Yeah... kinda. Pretty much an 'illusion'... that makes sense.


Sorry! These days, that's also maybe the most fundamental assumption of quantum physics and quantum cosmology

Well, no need to say sorry!... It's the most fundamental assumption of all science, philosophy and our own awareness itself... really and truly.


, and it's even taught as a fact in sociology and social work courses, not to mention in Western philosophy. So I'm sorry, but nobody can really ever separate themselves completely from the rest of the world. Even the concept of being able to do so is ultimately nonsensical, and that's now been proved to be almost necessarily so.

Well, not sure about what they teach, never had a lesson there. But I know a million ways one can 'seperate' myself from the rest of the world. (Whether or not I truly/really do, doesn't matter? (for we are talking about existence outside the mind, right?)).. hmmm (tricky) :S


When you talk about "now" or "here" as just being "points", I'm afraid you're making the mistake of confusing the word with the thing it refers to. Again, sorry, but the truth is the truth. (Sorry if that sounds patronising or whatever, but I do have a postgrad degree in philosophy, and you can check on all this by doing enough reading and study in philosophy -- if you really want to. Particularly of the philosopher Martin Heidegger, who was one of the most influential on twentieth century philosophy.) If you fully see past thoughts/concepts/words to the meaning underlying them, you might discover one particular truth that certain all Western and Eastern philosophy agrees on. And that is that the eternal "now" (and "here") is all that exists. By the way, I'm not sure that "points" exist at all, because they're nothing but theoretically imagined concepts.

Yeah, agree.

But that's my point (i beat around the bush alot). These things we can't be sure of, the things that we refer to, that are not things in themselves, but our view.... make sense. Logical sense. Logically correct, once one makes the assumtion of existence.

Like, my dreams can feel real once in a while... but they lack continuality.

Existence displays clear continuality.

Know what I mean?

(I don't know if the word continuality exists... imagine continue + ality... 'continues to continue'... or something lol)