Amazing new documentary 180themovie.com

[Unified Serenity]

I came across this documentary just a half hour ago. It's only 33 minutes long, but those 33 minutes set off a firestorm of discussion with my partner. Not an argument, but just talking about all the implications of this subject and how emotionally tortured one of the women interviewed appeared to be.

The logic is hard to argue against. I don't buy all the information shared by the presenter, but it is a powerful message presented, as I say again excellent logic. I do love a solid debate, and I will state that I have always been pro-life. Please watch the video and discuss your feelings and thoughts.

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[Cidersomerset]

Thankyou Unified Serenity .....There is plenty to discuss over a beer in a bar, on a forum it is to difficult to interact, you really need to look each other in the eye when you are discussing such moral issues ,imho. I am shocked so many people had not heard of Hitler, but Stalin & Mau were responsible for just as many if not more deaths.. All thru history invaders have massacred indiginous peoples. Europeans desimated the peoples of the Americas. The Romans enslaved half of Europe, Ghengis Khan Ravaged Asia/Eastern Europe and so on. America/uk /Israel and others have been inflicting cruelties in the middle East in the name of oil for the past decade. The one subject that should be given greater significance in schools is 'despotic' history , or we will be destined to repeat the many stupid things we have already.

The abortion issue is completely different and depends on your indvidual outlook on life, and should be a personal thing nothing to do with any religion.The other point about killing Hitlers mother is ridiculous how does that make sence, from that logic the original Enlil should have shot Enki before he created us,so all these murderers thru history would not have existed. Cheers Steve

PS you are right it is an emotional issue and the holocaust footage still is distressing and I've seen it many times on TV and visited the Holocast exibition at the war museam in London a few years ago and how the Nazis managed to industrialise the precedure like a slaughter house is beyond sickening and yes , 'NO ONE' should forget it happened ,as I say difficult to convay here imho..

[Unified Serenity]

Thanks for your reply cider. I do not think the point of bringing up Hitler was about how he was the worst, but the ethical dilemma these people obviously faced regarding being put in the position of buring wounded people alive and/or the option of ending their suffering by directly shooting them so they would not be buried injured but alive. Then these same people dealing with the question of how to answer, "It's ok to kill a child in the womb when....". They obviously had a difficult time answering that question. If you take out the very few cases of the life of the mother or a horribly deformed child who can't survive outside of the womb then we are left with over 40 million abortions performed for convenience. I mean, as President Obama so aptly put it, "Who wants to be punished with a baby" or something close to that effect.

I liked how the people gave their honest feelings and opinions about what they would or would not do in regards to burying / shooting Nazi victims and they seeing the correlation and their apparent hypocrisy about abortion. Both issues are sanctioned killing that they had issues with when faced with their hypocrisy.

[Tarka the Duck]

I had no idea that such a "movement existed". I have had my eyes opened yet again as to some of the "stuff" that is out there...and I am shocked to the core, yet again. Wow. What a deeply disturbing film.

Ray Comfort starts by saying he is Jew yet he is a well known evangelical Christian (so I have since discovered!) Which is it, Ray?

I didn't know, when I started watching, what it was going to be about, and was initially horrified that so many younger Americans didn't appear to know who Hitler was.

I really couldn't decide where the film was going...and it was interesting watching their tortured expressions as the interviewer fired some "moral dilemmas" at them.

Then suddenly, the agenda became clear...

For me, comparing the life of a living, breathing person with emotions, feelings, opinions, thoughts etc with a foetus is utterly objectionable. It trivialises the suffering of all the victims of the Holocaust.

To compare the pre-meditated, systematic mass murder of 6 million Jews, along with the millions more who were killed because they did not fit the Nazis' obsession for Aryan domination to the right of a woman to make a reproductive choice is, to me, a shameful manipulation of emotions.

We have legal ways to in which to debate and decide issues such as abortion.
The victims of the Nazi regime had no such rights.

For Ray Comfort, morality is absolute, written in tablets of stone. It is an extreme doctrine that he is preaching.
I prefer to try and see morality as more flexible, depending on circumstances.

I don't see what this film brings to the complex legal, medical and moral debate about abortion.

[seantimberwolf]

I am pagan and believe in the Norse gods and Odin all father so where does that leave me?
Am i a bad person because i believe in gods that existed before the word of Christ?
Am i a bad person because i value action over in-action?
Or that i want to fight for my rights and my fellow man instead of weep on a cross!
I think too much pressure is placed on people if they do not believe in this "almighty" god, and if that guy was trying to get me to believe in his god i would flip out.
I do not believe in abortion and i would kill Hitler in a heartbeat, so could i be an equal to a god fearing christian?
Or would said christian still see me as a heathen. Of course he would.
Because i don't bend my knee to a god who wants all of your attention for an ounce of invisible solitude.
I am a heathen in the eyes of the christian but i can except that, why?
Because i realize there is no ONE TRUTH there is just THE TRUTH. and it takes all forms and creeds

[TargeT]

Ghengis Khan Ravaged Asia/Eastern Europe and so on..

FYI, this is a very disrespectful title for a man that had many many great acomplishments; it is a testiment to the re-writers of history however...

in the future, Chinggis khan is the correct title/spelling ;)



Holocast exibition at the war museam in London a few years ago and how the Nazis managed to industrialise the precedure like a slaughter house is beyond sickening and yes , 'NO ONE' should forget it happened ,as I say difficult to convay here imho..

forget what happend?

[RMorgan]

IMHO, what this man is doing is so wrong, in many ways. He´s manipulating people´s opinion using cheap logic tricks, ignoring that is not possible to judge any situation ignoring it´s context.

He´s not changing people´s mind with dialectics, he´s just cheating and tricking them to agree with him. There are so many flaws in his arguments, that I guarantee that any intelligent person that was tricked by him will change their minds back after a couple of minutes of reasoning.

This man is using the same strategies that a sales man, who knocks at your door, convinces you that his product is the best thing ever, and, just couple of minutes after you buy it, you just think: -Oh man! What have I done...

For me, when he presupposes that the christian god actually exists, and that the ten commandments were in fact delivered by a divinity, he´s already so wrong.

You can´t discuss facts using faith and beliefs as arguments. You discuss facts with facts and real, solid evidence.

Ok, it´s so easy to paint Hitler as a monster, for us, and us only, because our nations were his enemies. For Germany, and for the Nazis, he was right. So what? Who´s right and who´s wrong? Of course, Hitler was wrong, but only because he had officially lost the war. If Hitler had won, he would be right.

In this concept, the very definition of right and wrong is inconsistent, because it is just a matter of majority. If lots of people think it´s right, it´s right. If lot´s of people think it´s wrong, it´s wrong.

Everyday, thousands of people die because of war, mostly USA wars. Is it wrong? Is it right? Well, lots of people think it´s right.

The concepts of right and wrong can only be achieved trough rational, unbiased, neutral reasoning.

Ok. Abortion is wrong? Go tell it to the raped young woman! Tell her that´s her obligation to raise and take care of a child that will remind her everyday that she was a victim of a terrible crime, while the only thing she wants is to forget it forever and go on with her life!

How about of a fetus who is diagnosed with a very serious disease and he´ll die just after birth, offering serious risks to his mother´s life, in some cases?

How about the thousands of girls who die every year, victims of the butchers in clandestine abortion clinics?

How about "Thou shall not kill" stuff? Does it say "Thou shall not kill HUMANS"? Absolutely no!! But I bet that guy has no problem eating bacon on breakfast and a fat steak at lunch, right? Of course not.

I bet that he was confronted with consistent arguments while he was interviewing people, but you know, for him is more convenient just to portray every one as ignorant, so he can "prove" his point...That´s why edition is for, right?

I could go on forever, but as Bob Dylan used to sing, "I´d forever talk to you, but soon my words, will turn into a meaningless rain..."

Cheers,

Raf.

[westhill]

So how did we go from Hitler to abortion? Is this is what the film is really about????? This guy tricks people into moral corners using semantics, time pressures, leading the questions to where he wants to go. We don't get to ASK questions but only answer his questions!! When life starts in the womb has not been determined by science. I believe the mother knows. I knew with both my kids. Eden entered at 5 months and Ian at 1 month. Each was very different. Now he is calling everyone a sinner. Who the "hell" is this guy? Everyone needed to laugh and just walk away.
westhill

[seantimberwolf]

So how did we go from Hitler to abortion? Is this is what the film is really about????? This guy tricks people into moral corners using semantics, time pressures, leading the questions to where he wants to go. We don't get to ASK questions but only answer his questions!! When life starts in the womb has not been determined by science. I believe the mother knows. I knew with both my kids. Eden entered at 5 months and Ian at 1 month. Each was very different. Now he is calling everyone a sinner. Who the "hell" is this guy? Everyone needed to laugh and just walk away.
westhill

Your words are wise thank you for the contribution
Much love

[Tarka the Duck]

Who the "hell" is this guy? Everyone needed to laugh and just walk away.
westhill

I do agree...but unfortunately, he isn't a lone voice in the wilderness. It seems there is a huge movement in the US - and perhaps also in NZ as Ray Comfort is from there?? - have a look at the Genocide Awareness Project. Here is the opening paragraph from one of their websites:


The Genocide Awareness Project (GAP) is a traveling photo-mural exhibit which compares the contemporary genocide of abortion to historically recognized forms of genocide. It visits university campuses around the country to show as many students as possible what abortion actually does to unborn children and get them to think about abortion in a broader historical context.

Kathie

[RMorgan]

Who the "hell" is this guy? Everyone needed to laugh and just walk away.
westhill

I do agree...but unfortunately, he isn't a lone voice in the wilderness. It seems there is a huge movement in the US - and perhaps also in NZ as Ray Comfort is from there?? - have a look at the Genocide Awareness Project. Here is the opening paragraph from one of their websites:


The Genocide Awareness Project (GAP) is a traveling photo-mural exhibit which compares the contemporary genocide of abortion to historically recognized forms of genocide. It visits university campuses around the country to show as many students as possible what abortion actually does to unborn children and get them to think about abortion in a broader historical context.

Kathie


Personally, I see this movement as positive. IMHO, abortion shouldn´t be legalized in all cases.

People need to think before having sex, you know. If a man and a woman have sex, with the consent of both parties, they are directly responsible for whatever comes later. In this cases, giving the baby for adoption is a much wiser choice for me.

There are so many contraceptive methods largely available (at least on developed countries) , that is just pure ignorance and stupidity not to use them.

There´s even the ( I don´t know how to call it in English) next-day pill, that a woman can take if an accident with a condom comes to happen.

[Tarka the Duck]

Who the "hell" is this guy? Everyone needed to laugh and just walk away.
westhill

I do agree...but unfortunately, he isn't a lone voice in the wilderness. It seems there is a huge movement in the US - and perhaps also in NZ as Ray Comfort is from there?? - have a look at the Genocide Awareness Project. Here is the opening paragraph from one of their websites:


The Genocide Awareness Project (GAP) is a traveling photo-mural exhibit which compares the contemporary genocide of abortion to historically recognized forms of genocide. It visits university campuses around the country to show as many students as possible what abortion actually does to unborn children and get them to think about abortion in a broader historical context.

Kathie


Personally, I see this movement as positive. IMHO, abortion shouldn´t be legalized in all cases.

People need to think before having sex, you know. If a man and a woman have sex, with the consent of both parties, they are directly responsible for whatever comes later. In this cases, giving the baby for adoption is a much wiser choice for me.

There are so many contraceptive methods largely available (at least on developed countries) , that is just pure ignorance and stupidity not to use them.

There´s even the ( I don´t know how to call it in English) next-day pill, that a woman can take if an accident with a condom comes to happen.

I didn't realise that I was coming across as pro-abortion!
My concern is the link that is being made between genocide and abortion.
As you stated in your previous post, there are many differing individual circumstances.

[RMorgan]

I didn't realise that I was coming across as pro-abortion!
My concern is the link that is being made between genocide and abortion.
As you stated in your previous post, there are many differing individual circumstances.

Of course my friend! I share the same point of view! :)

[Violet]

Very interesting, thanks.

I have a few questions and remarks though:

- How do I know these people couldn't as easily change back their mind with another rhetoric interviewing them?

- How objective is this doc, stemming from a jewish interviewer?

- I agree with the point of view on abortion but I first thought it was merely a sidetrack. Later on I was actually confused to see he's made this advocating against abortion. I thought it was going to be wholly about Holocaust and brainwashing people.

Abortion just looked so forced into it.

[Cidersomerset]

Hi TargeT..........The Exibition is permanent.....The scale model of Auswitz 'Holiday camp' is very sickening....

http://london.iwm.org.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.1454

A party of my mates went on a 'Skittle outing' to Krakow last year, while there they visited
Auswitz in deadly silence and said there was a evil atmosphere, even some of the bubbly charectors that will take the p=== out of any situation were stunned to silence at the cramped sardine barracks the gas chambers and the ovens, just be thankfull we are to young to have experianced their fate...Cheers Steve..

[Cidersomerset]

As for Temujin later known as Chinggis Khan he was ruthless enough, it was his rival Jamuka who boiled some of Temujins generals alive after a battle . Although after his later capture Temujin had Jamukas back broken .Hulagu Khan in1258 led a mongol force who massacred the garrison of Bagdad and killed 100,000 people upwards some reports say upto a million were killed, although that does seem a bit high....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_%281258%29

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Genghis Khan was as bad as the rest for a month after a victory over the Chinese he let his army plunder,murder and rape.....

He did start the unification and culture of the Mongol nation though... Cheers Steve

[spiritguide]

From a materialistic point of view one can argue, from a spiritual point their is no debate at all. Look within and see who you really are!

:peace:

[xion]

Hi all !

I just watched this and with no disrespect to Unified Serenity who posted this I'm must say that this is the most manipulative public interview if you can call it, and the questions are dumb as they come from the interviewer, one after another.
Comparing holocaust with abortion. Yeah ok ! Aha ! Thats a really nice parallel to draw. Like there was hundred of babies laying down in front of bulldozer and asking people if they would bury them. I mean come on.
And whats with the 10 commandments story. All of human kind are thieves, fornicators, liers, blasphemers, no good sack of ****s, and who knows what. Commandments were written as a guide for a better society like any other law.
One thing on abortion (referring here only on couples). Don't make babies on accident. If people don't know when to pull it out, then don't have sex ! If they can't control it, wtf were they doing when they were kids, they had years and years of practice with their right of left hand or both.

Honestly I was shocked that only a few people in the states know about that nazi bastard. What do they teach in school? I mean wow.

[Unified Serenity]

The responses have been interesting for me to read. I want you all to know that one of the biggest problems I had with the video was the turn it took to witnessing and proselytizing at the end. I would much rather Mr. Comfort had stuck to the intellectual dilemma of answering simple ethical questions about what they would have done given the order to bury people alive or shoot them to end their suffering or "It's ok to kill a child/baby in it's mother's womb when...". He did not seem to judge or push for any particular answer.

He used their own answers about each situation to show them their own hypocritical thinking, and when shown they each said, "Wow, that is tough to deal with" sort of responses. If life begins at 1 month then the answer apparently would be, "It's ok to kill a baby in it's mother's women when it is less than a month old" or "It's ok to kill a baby in it's mother's womb when it is horribly disfigured and cannot survive out in the world" or "It's ok to kill a baby whenever the mother feels it's no longer convenient to carry the child". Each answer is that person's viewpoint, and it only became a dilemma for them when it was no longer just about a woman's right to choose, but rather when is it about protecting someone who cannot protect themselves based on their own words. Apparently, most of the respondents had some point at which the "thing" inside the mother was a real person. That that person has rights too. And thus, at that point it's not just about a woman's right to choose. For some people it will always be just a personal decision, but for others it is also about societies morality and ethics. Partial birth abortion has got to be one of the biggest disgraces and scars upon us. For those of you who do not know what Partial birth abortion is, it is done at the latest stage of pregnancy. The baby could be delivered at anytime and be a normal healthy baby.

In fact, here in America had that woman who was travelling on her way to have a partial birth abortion happened to get hit by some vehicle and the baby dies, the person responsible for hitting the woman could be charged with manslaughter for killing that unborn child despite the fact that the mother was on her way to kill the same child in a state sanctioned clinic. To make it legal the doctor just delivers the baby usually feet first and before the child's head can come out and it can take a breath, the doctor puntures it's skull and sucks his brains out. Otherwise if the child takes a breath then to kill it the doctor would be charged with premeditated homocide.

Some people say that's ok to do partial birth abortions, but most say at that point the mother has carried the child 9 months and should have the baby and give it up for adoption if she does not want to keep the child. So, there seems to be a timeframe most say abortions should not happen. I think bases on years of hearing others that most people believe if it's done in the first 3 months of pregnancy. After that then only in cases where the life of the mother is at stake. The rub here is those same people will use her mental health aspect as an ok reason to do partial birth abortion. I don't agree with that, but each has a right to their opinion. The biggest point is that there are laws. Hitler did everything he did within German law. Abortion today in America is ok all the way up to the 9th month legally. At what point do we say that people have to stop? Is there a legal stopping point? For me there is, and that is there the people have to answer, 'It's ok to end a pregnancy when......."

I answer it this way:

"It's ok to end a pregnancy when the life of the mother is at stake or when the baby is visibly grossly deformed to the point it cannot possibly survive outside the womb such as it's brain is outside of it's skull, it's organs are outside of it's body, it is physically impossible to fix the problem surgically, that sort of thing, not just a downs syndrome baby. I am torn but do believe that in the case of criminal sexual pregnancy (rape/incest) that the day after pill or early term abortion should be allowed.

I can throw in another subject along the abortion lines here. Any woman who has had repeated abortions because she is too irresponsible to use birth control should get a free operation to sterilize her, and any man who has fathered more than two children outside of marriage should get a free vasectomy. That would severely curtail the number of unplanned pregnancies and children born into poverty."

Oh, and being Jewish is not just a religion it is a race. One can be a Jew and a Christian, Buddhist, Athiest, X religion. So his saying he is a Jew I think was just as a matter of information and fact. He has a right to follow whatever spiritual path he desires.

[conk]

Ghengis Khan Ravaged Asia/Eastern Europe and so on..

FYI, this is a very disrespectful title for a man that had many many great acomplishments; it is a testiment to the re-writers of history however...

in the future, Chinggis khan is the correct title/spelling ;)

Yes, the "barbarians" that the Romans spoke of with such hatred, appear to have been more civilized than the Romans. History, ha!

[shadowstalker]

I was doin alright till they got heavy with the god thing,
I would rather go to hell for truly being me, then to go to heaven and make an insecure/threatening god feel better about himself, that is if I believed in the church god. But I don't so there's no real issue for me.

[Sierra]

Wow, that was a really sleazy interview protocol. I made it through 18 minutes before I gave up.

In the first place (in the monotheistic paradigm, Christian, Jewish, Muslim), the baby does not contain a soul until it takes it first breath, read your Bible and all your ascension/spiritual/shaman/ancient knowledge material. In the second place, when a mother is damaged and loses her baby, the person responsible, pays a fine that is much smaller than the fine for killing a person already born. If the baby really was a person already, the fine would be equal. But it is not. Read your Bible, if you insist on taking it as an authority on the subject ... not that I think any woman in her right mind should.

Seriously. NONE of the monotheistic religions are friends of women. None of them.

To raise someone in "His image", is a project of a minimum of twenty year's work, wham bam thank you ma'am, oh are you pregnant? Too bad. I guess as a female, historically one is supposed to eat the consequences, but logically, any woman forced into a VERY expensive 20 year sentence, is going to be an angry bitch about it and there are consequences to being THAT kind of a mommy as well... Just where do you think thugs/serial killers/rapists come from you stupid interviewer? Unwanted children by any chance?

I am the first generation with a choice, thanks to half assed birth control and half assed abortion procedures. I'll take what I can get.

You don't want abortion? Come up with better birth control. We refuse to be your cows anymore. We're people now, with people rights, yay. (Yeah, that there monotheistic religion over there, actually says it in their "sacred" scripture, women are as cattle, property.) (Sacred my ass.)

And WHY is it usually the white guys doing this garbage? From what I saw in the first 18 minutes, the non-white guys seem to get it. Why don't the white guys? Control issues? Mourning for the old days? Lady doesn't want your kid and has a choice about it now?

Excuse my rant. This has my blood boiling, it is wrong on so many levels.

[nearing]

If you believe that the body is only a vehicle for the spirit and that the spirit doesn't inhabit the body until just before birth, then the abortion issue becomes a non-issue.

Murder of a body with the spirit intact is another story completely.

The manipulation of others for your own agenda (as this guy does) needs to stop, it will stop if we ignore him and anyone else in this manipulative 'movement'.

[Tarka the Duck]

Oh, and being Jewish is not just a religion it is a race. One can be a Jew and a Christian, Buddhist, Athiest, X religion. So his saying he is a Jew I think was just as a matter of information and fact. He has a right to follow whatever spiritual path he desires.

Of course... My partner was born Jewish but has been practising Buddhism and other eastern philosophies for over 40 years. And there is a lively debate out there about the "race" issue in Judaism as Jews do not have a common ancestry - a complex issue that I can't really begin to comprehend...:o

My reason for raising that point is that I felt uncomfortable with the way that I felt Ray made use of his Jewish heritage at the very beginning of the film but doesn't offer any information about his choice of religion (Evangelical Christian). it felt a bit dishonest to me - that's all.

[Referee]

Unified Serenity, Thanks for posting this made me think. It is Shocking to me people do not know about Hitler. Great Post.

Like Buddha has said Respect All Living Things.

[modwiz]

The Dalai Lama refers to his many Jewish followers as Juddhists. He has a very developed sense of humor. He laughs a lot too.

[Limor Wolf]

There is a real wish in my heart that one day we (humans) will avoid puting any importance on races,colors,genders,religions in order to prove a point...I would like to have a cup of cofee with any external entity or an energy being and have our exchange of thoughts without taking any relations to those.

About this video,I think that Tarka the duck and Rmorgan (posts #4 & #7) have expressed it so clearly.
I agree with others here,that that was yet another kind of brainwashed prpoganda,an unnecessary compare between two totaly separate issues:holocaust and abortions ?? (wtf)

I felt it had a directed agenda trying to bias people in favour of a specific conclusion,it had no relations to the state of the souls,consciousness and emotions in victims compared to fetuses. so,to put it lightly,
I wasn't very much impressed by it.

[olddragon]

Just another religious netter pushing his own opinions on people.

[Cidersomerset]

Hi Conk your almost there...lol ..The Romans had trouble with the Huns , 800 years earlier in 451 AD, led by another famous barbarian, as you rightly say the Romans called anyone out of their sphere of influence 'Barbarian'.. 'Attila The Hun',The Huns were another asiatic nomadic people , similar to the later Mongals. After a period of raiding and plundering the Eastern & Western Roman empire.They were defeated at the battle of Chalons 451 AD. But they were driven out of the declining western empire and settled down and created a country that is still there today Hungary..

This is a interesting recreation of the battle of chalons and gives you an idea of the times...


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Cheers Steve..

[eric charles]

the whole holocaust tyhing is all B.S , i have a book here that is banned from many countries that debunk all of this !!

[Calz]

Sorry ... as much as I tied to watch this I had to shut it down 10 times in the first 4 minutes before giving up.

Only thing of interest (in those 1st 4 minutes) was the lack of understanding about our history.

That said ... if you take selected interviews from *anyone* regarding *anything* you get similar results if that is the intent of the producer of the the information.

[Cidersomerset]

Hi Eric it is probably banned from many countries because the Holocaust 'DEFINATELY' Happened, you don't have to believe it yourselfe . But the proof is all over Nazi occupied Europe. I know Stalin
was responcible for more deaths in the Ukraine in the 1930's, so human life has always been cheep to the elite of whatever persuasion, that bit is true..

http://www.faminegenocide.com/2003-competition/07-luhovy-famine-genocide.html

This Documentry made at the time by renown film maker Alfred Hitchcock gives you a feel of the evil inflicted on the helpless by sadistic SS guards under the direct leadership of Himmler,
Who had the complete trust of Hitler...

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There are numerous other film of the time,documentries , films, and survivors.The Soldiers who liberated the camp may beg to differ with you. I know we like a conspiricy, but in the end not everything is lies......Steve

[beyondmyctrl]

That said ... if you take selected interviews from *anyone* regarding *anything* you get similar results if that is the intent of the producer of the the information.

you mean like this forum ? :)

[Calz]

That said ... if you take selected interviews from *anyone* regarding *anything* you get similar results if that is the intent of the producer of the the information.

you mean like this forum ? :)

Not my intent but I see your point.

Alfred Hitchcock piece is rather "in your face".

[1159]

This documentary degenerates into dangerous religious propaganda. It is NOT logical, correct or complete. It preys on the age old trap of focussing guilt against isolated actions. If you tell a lie, that does not make you a lier any more than if you tell a story it makes you a story teller. In other words, creating an identity from isolated events is too extreme to be accurate.

I bet every one of thos interviewed have also done good deeds and shown exceptional kindness as well in their lives. Does that make them a saint? of course not Q.E.D

This is how the scourge of religion traps us into the pit of guilt. Am I qulaified to say this? You bet ya. I spent 15 years in the charismatic movement ... I've seen it all and believe me the deeper you go, the more it smells.

[Calz]

I agree regarding the 180 ... the added hitchcock piece is worth watching.

I expect no one can add cgi to these films depicting what happened???

[Cidersomerset]

The Alfred Hitchcock film was made as a historical evidence piece to never let the people of the world forget what happened. Sure many other atrocities happened, especially in Eastern Europe and Russia and China during WW11, and before and after, many with film evidence. There can be no doubt they happened. As to the reasons then there is more room for speculation..

One left field theory put forward by David Icke a few years ago when he was talking about, dimensional entities living off the essence given off humans, hightened when in a state of fear .ie war ,Torture the fear of anything. Like now for arguments sake people are kept in contol and fear, by financial collapse, Job loss , Terrorism etc...I could speculate all the major wars in human history have been to feed these bloodsuckers, whether they are alien entities or power crazy elites...Culminating in the massive loss of contrived frightened/Terrorfied deaths in the 20th century...

Remember it is natural to die and millions do peacefully everyday.But there is no 'High' from natural deaths I'm guessing.....Just a theory to throw in and it would explain why we are manipulated into wars all the time. Why would any sane human being sitting round a table, not know that war is ridiculous as a concept. We have been conditioned, and are still manipulted to believe its the only way to settle disputes, by the military ind complex and the 'Banksters' who fund them.....Who controls them/us is one of the main questions, we are looking for answers for..imho Steve..

[Limor Wolf]

the whole holocaust tyhing is all B.S , i have a book here that is banned from many countries that debunk all of this !!

I have a mother,grandmother,grandfather,aunts and uncles who participated in this..but what is that comparing to a book,ha?

[woodshreder]

I think George Carlin put it best. I think any organized religon is just another control mechanism bestowed on humanity ...I believe there's a little creator in all of us and if we hadn't been indoctrinated we could of heard loud and clear that little voice that tells us what's right and what's wrong . Trouble is we've been lied to for eons of time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Cidersomerset]

Thats right woodshreder I have put this up on a similar thread ,well worth repeating..

MeSSwKffj9o

This one reminded me of my 1st day at St.Josephs ,and Sister Legory was the reason
I found nunns scary ,and religion BS , I lasted until I was seven then made my parents
transfer me to a state school.....

jxo81Ok9Urk

I could put a load of these up but better not...back to thread....Steve

[Asyloth]

I didn't watch more than 5min of this doc, I'm just ****ing tired of all this jew-Holocaust ****!

[Mod-edit: Rest of rant deleted - this sample is sufficient to show what was in it.

Do not post rants against racial, ethnic or religious groups on this forum. The Bastards in Power on this planet would like nothing more than to set us one against the other. Don't let them.

Also, please don't post lots of blanked out cuss words.

-Paul.]

[Tarka the Duck]

I didn't watch more than 5min of this doc, I'm just ****ing tired of all this jew-Holocaust ****!


Shame that, because of your bigotry, you didn't have sufficient curiosity to watch the rest of the film...it wasn't actually about the horrors of the Holocaust at all.

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Asyloath: "I don't feel any compassion..."

I think that sums it up,
Thank you.

[Cidersomerset]

Hi Asyloth its the Zionists, Neo cons and other elites , secret societies that have been running the world for thousands of years . Thats who we are trying to expose!!!
The Jews, Christians ,muslims, aythiasts and any other human that has been, and still are sacrificed to complete their agendas are real.......The Holocaust Happened
The Nazis were evil at the top and they used fanatics and criminals mainly in the SS to commit most of the atrocoties. Like wise Stalin, Mau and a host of other leaders
have precided over massacres of people, The Japannese in China , The Allies dropping the atomic bomb..the list is unending as you go thru history.

But only the Nazis industrialised it to the degree of gasing & burning people 'in Terror' in ovens....The atomic bomb comes close...Anyway the question for me as I have already said.
Are we manipulatedby some external entity ??? or is the Human race just, Stupid, Evil and crazy?? I hope it is some form of the former or we are doomed to keep repeating
this horrific cycle indefinately !!!

Which is why it is importent not to forget what happened and try and change the mind set of violence !!!! I admit we as a species are doing a crap job as there are more conflicts
than ever. But hopefully with sites like avalon , the web and the host of enlightened Star children that have incarnated here in the last 50 years we may have a
chance to change things....At least more people around the world are waking up to the fact that the old paradigms are not working and we need change...Steve.

[Unified Serenity]

I am amazed that when a topic involving religion or abortion comes up people can't even watch to find out the purpose of the thread. No, they just go off on a tangent and rant about their personal issues with that issue despite their issue really having nothing to do with the thread at all. I wish the man had not gone off proselytizing and just left it at how we deal with our moral ethical views in one area and when asked about something that would correspond to one's own admitted views that they see how unintentionally hypocritical they are being. I really wish people would just deal with the idea of :

1. If an authority figure stuck a gun to your head and told you to bury X alive or you die would you do it?

2. If you had the option to just shoot X and end their suffering would you do it?

3. It's ok to kill a child in it's mother's womb when.....?

At what point do you draw a line? I gave my answer in an earlier post. I'd like to hear how other's whom I felt from other posts seem to be seeking spiritual enlightenment and growth would answer these issues, but instead most of the answers are going off on women's rights, religion is crap, and the Jews are making me sick. I really was expecting people to stick to the topic, but so far few have.

[Lord Sidious]

I didn't watch more than 5min of this doc, I'm just ****ing tired of all this jew-Holocaust ****!


Ok, well you fell for it.
They offered you the chance to pick from their choices and you picked the right one for them.
The reason all this crap continues on here on Earth is because people want to put things down to entire groups, with the exception of the one group that is the real cause, the controllers.
People speak of ''the jews'' as if they are the borg.


http://www.strategyplanet.com/sfc/images/sfc3/borg_picture.gif

Those who really run this planet wish to play us all off of each other and you took their bait, hook, line and sinker.

[Cidersomerset]

Sorry unified Senerity .....I did answer your questions on page one , since then I have felt abliged to try and answer a few worrying questions on the validity of the holocaust...

Cheers Steve..

[Unified Serenity]

Sorry unified Senerity .....I did answer your questions on page one , since then I have felt abliged to try and answer a few worrying questions on the validity of the holocaust...

Cheers Steve..

Hey Steve,

Yes, that's why I said "few have" not "none have" so I do appreciate what you have contributed. Granted it is hard to talk on a forum about such "hot" topics, but if we stick to what is on topic, deal with facts said, and not go off on emotional rants, we might actually all get something out of it. So, again, thank you for what you have shared, I have enjoyed it.

[Sierra]

I am amazed that when a topic involving religion or abortion comes up people can't even watch to find out the purpose of the thread. No, they just go off on a tangent and rant about their personal issues with that issue despite their issue really having nothing to do with the thread at all. I wish the man had not gone off proselytizing and just left it at how we deal with our moral ethical views in one area and when asked about something that would correspond to one's own admitted views that they see how unintentionally hypocritical they are being. I really wish people would just deal with the idea of :

1. If an authority figure stuck a gun to your head and told you to bury X alive or you die would you do it?

2. If you had the option to just shoot X and end their suffering would you do it?

3. It's ok to kill a child in it's mother's womb when.....?

At what point do you draw a line? I gave my answer in an earlier post. I'd like to hear how other's whom I felt from other posts seem to be seeking spiritual enlightenment and growth would answer these issues, but instead most of the answers are going off on women's rights, religion is crap, and the Jews are making me sick. I really was expecting people to stick to the topic, but so far few have.

I felt I was directly on topic re "3. It's ok to kill a child in it's mother's womb when.....? " as in, there is no child, no soul within the mother's womb, only an uninhabited fetus. I rely on the literature of both Jewish and Christian peoples (what did he call himself, a born again Christian?) to contradict this premise ... This is so obviously a document created by a pro-lifer who wants to create a non-existent connection between the holocaust and abortion.

According to religious monotheistic literature, it is simply not the case, so when "interviewers" attempt to say the opposite, of course I am going to speak up and say this is not true. Sorry, but it is not scriptural to say scripture is against abortion. Scripture is quite explicit on the subject both directly and indirectly. You cannot use scripture to support a pro-life position, it simply does not exist.

Some more evidence as to what was used instead of abortion during the time of Christ:

Sources:
Boswell, John The Kindness of Strangers - The Abandonment of Children in Western Eruope from Late Antiquity to the Renaissance , Pantheon Books, New York, 1988, 488 pp.

Norwich, John Julius, Byzantium The Early Centuries, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1989, 407 pp.

I also researched on a multi-volume set of books about the Roman Empire, which I don't have handy to give you references.

In essence, at the time of Christ, He said not one word, repeat, not one word about the abortion practices of the time. This alone, leads me to believe (along with scriptural support) that Jesus himself, did not believe a fetus in the womb contained a soul. What were the abortion practices of the time? I define abortion as a removal of a child from a family when the family cannot feed the child.


Put the baby out in wilderness to be eaten by the wild, alive. A common practice both in Europe and in the area of Palestine at the time
Put the child out in the market place square, by the pole, the symbolic pole of the phallus, where the child will be picked up and put to prostitution in the Roman temples of the time
Put the child out to work as a slave to work of the debts of the parents, if old enough at the time of his parent's deaths

It is not until centuries later, that mankind developed enough compassion to create orphanages, simply used to raise the child to adulthood with no agenda. (Yeah right, she says to the pedophile priesthood who continue their prostitution of children.)

So, what was the motive of Jesus to say not one word about abortion or birth control or the usage of children that could not be fed by their parents? Hmm? Not one word about the murder, prostitution, and enslavement of babies and children? Perhaps Jesus could see the economic realities of the time and did not attempt to lay further burdens that could not be borne in the first place by most of the population?

Gee, I wish likewise, that same understanding existed among the 33% of the anti-abortion population (67% of Americans support abortion) who still don't get it. The gap between the rich and the poor must be wider than it was back then ...

As for sticking to the topic, do you feel the interviewer did so? Do you see a relationship between the holocaust and abortion? Do you feel manipulated when you watch the video?

I'd rather we spent energy rescuing the children of our day, from pedophiles, rapists, murderers, than complaining about someone getting an abortion. Hello, lets take care of who is already here and suffering and dying at the hands of the Illuminati.

And yes, I do seek spiritual enlightenment and growth will all my heart, mind and soul.

[Unified Serenity]

I felt I was directly on topic re "3. It's ok to kill a child in it's mother's womb when.....? " as in, there is no child, no soul within the mother's womb, only an uninhabited fetus. I rely on the literature of both Jewish and Christian peoples (what did he call himself, a born again Christian?) to contradict this premise ... This is so obviously a document created by a pro-lifer who wants to create a non-existent connection between the holocaust and abortion.

According to religious monotheistic literature, it is simply not the case, so when "interviewers" attempt to say the opposite, of course I am going to speak up and say this is not true. Sorry, but it is not scriptural to say scripture is against abortion. Scripture is quite explicit on the subject both directly and indirectly. You cannot use scripture to support a pro-life position, it simply does not exist.

Some more evidence as to what was used instead of abortion during the time of Christ:

Sources:
Boswell, John The Kindness of Strangers - The Abandonment of Children in Western Eruope from Late Antiquity to the Renaissance , Pantheon Books, New York, 1988

Norwich, John Julius, Byzantium The Early Centuries, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1989

I also researched on a multi-volume set of books about the Roman Empire, which I don't have handy to give you references.

In essence, at the time of Christ, He said not one word, repeat, not one word about the abortion practices of the time. This alone, leads me to believe (along with scriptural support) that Jesus himself, did not believe a fetus in the womb contained a soul. What were the abortion practices of the time? I define abortion as a removal of a child from a family when the family cannot feed the child.


Put the baby out in wilderness to be eaten by the wild, alive. A common practice both in Europe and in the area of Palestine at the time
Put the child out in the market place square, by the pole, the symbolic pole of the phallus, where the child will be picked up and put to prostitution in the Roman temples of the time
Put the child out to work as a slave to work of the debts of the parents, if old enough at the time of his parent's deaths

It is not until centuries later, that mankind developed enough compassion to create orphanages, simply used to raise the child to adulthood with no agenda. (Yeah right, she says to the pedophile priesthood.)

So, what was the motive of Jesus to say not one word about abortion or birth control or the usage of children that could not be fed by their parents? Hmm? Not one word about the murder, prostitution, and enslavement of babies and children? Perhaps Jesus could see the economic realities of the time and did not attempt to lay further burdens that could not be borne in the first place by most of the population?

Gee, I wish likewise, that same understanding existed among the 33% of the anti-abortion population (67% of Americans support abortion) who still don't get it. The gap between the rich and the poor must be wider than it was back then ...

As for sticking to the topic, do you feel the interviewer did so? Do you see a relationship between the holocaust and abortion? Do you feel manipulated when you watch the video?

I'd rather we spent energy rescuing the children of our day, from pedophiles, rapists, murderers, than complaining about someone getting an abortion. Hello, lets take care of who is already here and suffering and dying at the hands of the Illuminati.

And yes, I do seek spiritual enlightenment and growth will all my heart, mind and soul.

Thanks for your reply. I am confused though as to why you go on and on about christian this or that as you don't apparently believe in anything christian. The bible actually does say that the life is in the blood, but you can debate breath equating spirit if you want, that still was not the point of my post. So for you, apparently it's ok to get rid of a baby even up to the natural delivery date, and if that is the case then so be it. I do appreciate your answer. I am wondering if your view of protecting the unborn is equally born out in regards to animals. Would you have any issue with a zoo / caretaker of a rare endangered species having the unborn animal in their host destroyed cause they didn't want to go through with the pregnancy?

[Sierra]

Thanks for your reply. I am confused though as to why you go on and on about christian this or that as you don't apparently believe in anything christian. The bible actually does say that the life is in the blood, but you can debate breath equating spirit if you want, that still was not the point of my post. So for you, apparently it's ok to get rid of a baby even up to the natural delivery date, and if that is the case then so be it. I do appreciate your answer. I am wondering if your view of protecting the unborn is equally born out in regards to animals. Would you have any issue with a zoo / caretaker of a rare endangered species having the unborn animal in their host destroyed cause they didn't want to go through with the pregnancy?

1. I only quote monotheist literature because that is what the video uses as a basis of their arguments imo
2. I am actually a Christian/Tibetan Buddhist, and Jesus, as he is described whether or not he actually existed, I love,adore and follow as my mentor. I believe him when he says I am also a god of God as he is, but enough with the Illuminati oppression part, ascension is the goal
3. Life is in the blood, but spirit is in the breath, can't get around it
4. No, I never set any date it is ok to get rid of a baby, and that is not the case, that was not my answer and I'd appreciate it if you'd go back and reread where you think I said that and correct your mind's initial impression.
5. An animal does in some cases reject a newborn and it dies, especially in captivity, and/or starvation, repeat starvation. So do humans.
6. Caretakers many times cull and kill animals to maintain an environment that can support those already alive
7. I don't really think the argument of a caretaker destroying the fetus of an endangered species because he didn't feel like helping with the pregnancy or the species didn't feel like being pregnant is an argument that makes a related point?

Unified Serenity, I thought this was a discussion on the merits of the argument. I am off this thread now, because I see you as personally offended by what I say. I do not want to offend you. I respect you. Not the video, not the interviewer on the video, you I respect. See you around :)

Sierra :wave:

[Unified Serenity]

Thanks for your reply. I am confused though as to why you go on and on about christian this or that as you don't apparently believe in anything christian. The bible actually does say that the life is in the blood, but you can debate breath equating spirit if you want, that still was not the point of my post. So for you, apparently it's ok to get rid of a baby even up to the natural delivery date, and if that is the case then so be it. I do appreciate your answer. I am wondering if your view of protecting the unborn is equally born out in regards to animals. Would you have any issue with a zoo / caretaker of a rare endangered species having the unborn animal in their host destroyed cause they didn't want to go through with the pregnancy?

1. I only quote monotheist literature because that is what the video uses as a basis of their arguments imo
2. I am actually a Christian/Tibetan Buddhist, and Jesus, as he is described whether or not he actually existed, I love,adore and follow as my mentor. I believe him when he says I am also a god of God as he is, but enough with the Illuminati oppression part, ascension is the goal
3. Life is in the blood, but spirit is in the breath, can't get around it
4. No, I never set any date it is ok to get rid of a baby, and that is not the case, that was not my answer and I'd appreciate it if you'd go back and reread where you think I said that and correct your mind's initial impression.
5. An animal does in some cases reject a newborn and it dies, especially in captivity, and/or starvation, repeat starvation. So do humans.
6. Caretakers many times cull and kill animals to maintain an environment that can support those already alive
7. I don't really think the argument of a caretaker destroying the fetus of an endangered species because he didn't feel like helping with the pregnancy or the species didn't feel like being pregnant is an argument that makes a related point?

Unified Serenity, I thought this was a discussion on the merits of the argument. I am off this thread now, because I see you as personally offended by what I say. I do not want to offend you. I respect you. Not the video, not the interviewer on the video, you I respect. See you around :)

Sierra :wave:

Sierra,

I do not invest myself in what the documentary interviewers goals or beliefs are in this. The interesting aspect for me was watching people give answers to ethical and moral dilemma's which they were presented. I found it interesting that some would find it easier and were willing to bury injured people alive vs. shooting them directly as if one action made them more directly responsible for their death. Then when asked various questions about unborn children and when it's ok to kill them.

Regardless of my personal beliefs and feelings, I accept each person has their own acceptable standard. I think it is very interesting how we separate ourselves given various moral dilemmas. I'm sorry if I have misunderstood your rant against this guys proselytizing and methodology. I also find the various positions people take very interesting such as many who are pro-choice are anti-death penalty or pro-life and pro-death penalty. So, if you want to leave the thread, I understand. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Dawn]

I couldn't even listen to the video once it turned into questions about abortion. It isn't that I am adverse to hearing viewpoints, it is that the movie was using manipulation to press a point the producers had come to believe in. When I am exposed to the energy of trickery and manipulation I become angry. This is a great tool to use in the world, because sometimes the manipulation is so subtle that I cannot pick it up with my logical mind, however my subconscious recognizes it anyway and creates anger as a warning for me.

Anyway.... history is always re-written by those in power. Are any of you aware that only 5,000,000 Jews were killed in the holocaust, whereas 15,000,000 Ukrainians were slaughtered at the same time in a genocide in the USSR? A movie was created about the Ukrainian genocide, however it was banned from being shown in the US after only one airing. In Canada it was not banned, which is how I became aware of it.

God knows how many other bloody wars and atrocities have happened in our history, or are happening now, that we are not even aware of. It is very surprising to me that the US schools are no longer teaching about Hitler and Nazi Germany. I wonder... is it because they are doing the same thing to the US Citizens that Germany did to their population? Hmmmmmm???????

Meanwhile, one of the most problematic things is that most of us are taught to believe that we are our bodies. All training of who and what we actually are is missing in most of the world, certainly in all education systems (should I say 'institution sanctioned programming systems'?) If we truly know who and what we are then fear of death would vanish, leaving perpetrators without any real effect on any of us.

If you take a look at the INTENT in mass murder, or any type of violence you can see the underlying hatred and joy of inflicting harm on another. It is my opinion that the sought after response is the frequency of fear this creates, and I believe that this fear is food for many dis-embodied entities who feed on it.

How does this compare to abortion? I don't think there is an intention to create and feed on the fear of the fetus. It certainly seems that some form of mandatory birth control would be helpful in cases where men and women don't seem to be able (or don't desire to) control their fertility.

What is not being looked at here is that consciousness is in charge of the whole show... both what we think of as 'good' and what we think of as 'bad'. Somewhere within consciousness there is agreement for all of this. Personally, I am really hoping that new exposure to the frequencies due to our alignment with the center of the galaxy does actually herald an evolution in consciousness. I am TIRED of all of this! And I know most of humanity feels the same way. Perhaps a change is coming... I hope so.

[truthseekerdan]

The problem is, "the holocaust" is still continuing today right under our noses, but of course under a different name, "terrorism"..?

[Hughe]

Asyloth,

Same here. What a garbage documentary film!

The Abundant Traveler,


Anyway.... history is always re-written by those in power. Are any of you aware that only 5,000,000 Jews were killed in the holocaust, whereas 15,000,000 Ukrainians were slaughtered at the same time in a genocide in the USSR? A movie was created about the Ukrainian genocide, however it was banned from being shown in the US after only one airing. In Canada it was not banned, which is how I became aware of it.

God knows how many other bloody wars and atrocities have happened in our history, or are happening now, that we are not even aware of. It is very surprising to me that the US schools are no longer teaching about Hitler and Nazi Germany. I wonder... is it because they are doing the same thing to the US Citizens that Germany did to their population? Hmmmmmm???????

Our people slaughtered three million people each other in 1950s. Both factions still justifies the war.
About quarter million people die every year in this country. People kill each other directly or indirectly. Drivers walk away killing innocent kids because the insurance will pay for it - $20,000.00 no charge of criminal. $20,000 to $30,000 is my price tag by the insurance companies.

Who has been the leaders of all the nations? Real criminals, serial killers.

I saw the documentary film. USSR slaughtered one hundred millions. China killed little move than USSR. China is good country?
So it fine or even heroic deed if people kill fellow humans for the benefit of government, ideology, or religious belief? It's all bull **** to me.

Many youths in countries voluntarily join the military to be a certified killing machine. Here young people are so fed up with slavery living, working hard without improvement of living nor bright future cause economy is destroyed systematically. They have one choice either working ass off to pay bill and taxes for supporting corrupted ruling class or live under poverty or becomes real criminals.

Is it pure insanity of human race or the inertia created by the system thousands years? Not a single person will have true peace and freedom when the mighty government tortures, kill innocent citizens under secrecy and laws.

Abolish military forces in each nation, take care their own people first.

[161803398]

Some people THINK they know what they will do in a situation like this but no one, in fact, does know. The person who thinks they will comply is possibly the one person who will not; and vice versa. No one ever knows what they will do.

[Ilie Pandia]

This is not an "Amazing new documentary" for me. For me, it is just a long manipulative ad, with all the really clever answers cut out at editing time. Drawing a parallel between the Holocaust and the abortion it's used as a tool to force the same conclusions and ideas about both. You cannot discuss one without insulting the other, or without accepting the label that you are a "hypocrite". You are not allowed that, in different contexts, to make different choices.

The most honest answer, I believe, was "I don't know what I would do!". And I think that is also the "right answer", as it makes you think about each situation separately, and not to become an automaton, following "the book of rules that some interviewer conjured up!" or else you'll burn in hell as the liar and hypocrite you are :biggrin:

And another point:

Every day I use cheap fuel made possible be the wars for oil. I use products made in China in what looks like horrible working conditions. I close my eyes to what I perceive not to be "just" around me, because I feel too "little" to do something about it. I buy foreign food contributing the to the erosion of local food production... So what is really the difference between me and the person using the bulldozer? I believe that, like it or not, we are all responsible for the situation we find ourselves in. And this is good news, because it means it is within our power to change it.

PS: Oh, and God looks into my heart.. and you know what She sees? She sees Herself! :P

[Calz]

I wanted to add something that struck me after watching the Hitchcock film (had errands so took me awhile to return).

Doesn't come from books, the net or any theories ... it just came to me.

Most of the people shown being thrown into mass graves had died of starvation and, in fact, they showed the scant portions of food being fed to those still alive.

The signs marking the burial sites all said 1945 (from what I could remember). End of the war.

Stop and think about that for just a minute.

Germany was surrounded and getting pounded from bombers above. *Logistically* speaking .... would it not make sense that there would have been great difficulty getting *any* supplies to *anywhere* within the country???

How long does it take for a human to starve??? Not long.

Would feeding those in the camps have been a top priority when everyone else was struggling to survive?

I suggest that many (if not most) of those dying in the camps were a consequence of the war itself and not necessarily intentional.

That does't mean bad things were not going on ... mind control experiments and such.

Just throwing a different possible lense to consider the situation with. Another "walk a mile in my shoes" sort of thing. Suspend your opinions about the war and what led up to that point in time and simple ask yourself what you would have (or could have) done.

IMHO

[Unified Serenity]

Some people THINK they know what they will do in a situation like this but no one, in fact, does know. The person who thinks they will comply is possibly the one person who will not; and vice versa. No one ever knows what they will do.

OMG I want to hug you and kiss your face all over! Kumbahyah Ohm and hi kudos to the one person who has responded to the direct reason for THIS thread. It's a great learning lesson for me because it is very easy to see a part of an opening thread, not completely get it and derail the thread with my own little issues. So, mr/ms numbers person thank you. THANK YOU!

[Unified Serenity]

I wanted to add something that struck me after watching the Hitchcock film (had errands so took me awhile to return).

Doesn't come from books, the net or any theories ... it just came to me.

Most of the people shown being thrown into mass graves had died of starvation and, in fact, they showed the scant portions of food being fed to those still alive.

The signs marking the burial sites all said 1945 (from what I could remember). End of the war.

Stop and think about that for just a minute.

Germany was surrounded and getting pounded from bombers above. *Logistically* speaking .... would it not make sense that there would have been great difficulty getting *any* supplies to *anywhere* within the country???

How long does it take for a human to starve??? Not long.

Would feeding those in the camps have been a top priority when everyone else was struggling to survive?

I suggest that many (if not most) of those dying in the camps were a consequence of the war itself and not necessarily intentional.

That does't mean bad things were not going on ... mind control experiments and such.

Just throwing a different possible lense to consider the situation with. Another "walk a mile in my shoes" sort of thing. Suspend your opinions about the war and what led up to that point in time and simple ask yourself what you would have (or could have) done.

IMHO

While your points are interesting and good for people to know, they have nothing to do with my thread. The Nazi's shot people who fell onto the ground and in pits. Not all of them died. Pretend their tractor broke down, and there is a farmer nearby with a working tractor. He and his family are pulled outside and the leading officer says to the farmer, "Push these people into the pit and cover them with dirt." The farmer hears their moaning. He sees them bleeding and hears them crying out for help. What does he do? Let's say the Officer even says he can shoot them first to finish them off. These are his neighbors, little children, women, young men and the old. What does he do? If he balks the officer points a gun at the farmers wife and children. What does he do?

Now, you are that farmer, what do you do? I know many German's. They never believed something like this could happen in their beautiful country. Don't sit back and believe you are removed from this ethical choice. It has happened all over the world, what do you in your heart of hearts believe you would do?

THAT IS THE QUESTION. IT'S SIMPLE. IT'S NOT ABOUT THIS GUYS METHODOLOTY OR MOTIVES IN FILMING THESE PEOPLE. I WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU WOULD DO AND WHY OR HOW YOU JUSTIFY IT EITHER WAY.

[Calz]

While your points are interesting and good for people to know, they have nothing to do with my thread.

Don't mean to go "off topic" in "your thread" ... simply responded to a video that was posted here.

Yes it was not the one in the OP ...

Carry on.

:offtopic:

[Cidersomerset]

Hi Abundant traveller the famine in the Ukraine was slightly earlier in 1931-32 and I mentioned it on page 2 , with the Alfred Hitchcock doc. Ref.. link below .

http://www.faminegenocide.com/2003-competition/07-luhovy-famine-genocide.html

Thats the problem there has, and still are far to many atrocities going on, while the vast majority of people have not got a clue as per the
original film put up by United serenity.....

[Cidersomerset]

Calz-.. I follow your logic and it is true many prisoners were starved to death and died of desease at the end , but that was because deportations were stepped up and they literally
could not gas enough people in the last months of the war. Look at any country in Nazi occupied Europe at there pre war Jewish/Gypsy/Homosexual/ intellectuals/political opponents/
mentally ill etc....and conpare them with after the war . They are simply missing, only a relitively few went to Palestine. Whole villages and jewish Suburbs were wiped out.....
There were a few exceptions like Denmark who did there best to save their Jewish population.

No they were shot,beaten,starved,gased and experimented on , remember Dr Mengeles horrific experiments......

If you have got the stomach.....

a6jnawYwm3E

[Unified Serenity]

Calz-.. I follow your logic and it is true many prisoners were starved to death and died of desease at the end , but that was because deportations were stepped up and they literally
could not gas enough people in the last months of the war. Look at any country in Nazi occupied Europe at there pre war Jewish/Gypsy/Homosexual/ intellectuals/political opponents/
mentally ill etc....and conpare them with after the war . They are simply missing, only a relitively few went to Palistine. Whole villages and jewish Suburbs were wiped out.....

No they were shot,beaten,starved,gased and experimented on , remember Dr Mengeles horrific experiments......

If you have got the stomach.....

a6jnawYwm3E

Please stop derailing my thread, there is another thread about the holocaust which I have participated. Take this whole side issue off my thread please.

[Cidersomerset]

I thought the thread was about Hitler and shooting him in the womb of his mother , i'l leave it now its up to you all, to make sure these millions are not forgotten cheers Steve..

[Lord Sidious]

Please remember one thing, when we are debating the massacres of people, that the suffering may not have ended for their descendants.
I am against massacres of anyone, anywhere, anytime for any reason.
The negativity surrounding the demise of people is not something I wish we attract to ourselves, but we must remember that this some people still suffer the effects of things that happened many years ago.
How to free them from that, now that is something I would like to know more about.

Afterthought.
One of the things I have seen done by people who really do hate ''the jews'' is to try and ''trade off'' other massacres that involved more people, such as the holodomor.
Not that I am suggesting this is what is being done here, I am just saying I have seen that done, by people I knew even.
I find that concept of ''we suffered more'' because of numbers to be outside comprehension.
People have suffered and/or died.
Enough said.
Sorry to derail the thread, I just had to put that in.

[Unified Serenity]

I thought the thread was about Hitler and shooting him in the womb of his mother , i'l leave it now its up to you all, to make sure these millions are not forgotten cheers Steve..

If you had read my recent posts you would know most definately that the point of THIS thread is to discuss how we handle moral / ethical dilemmas. Talking about atrocities around the world, no matter how noble that subject is, does not address the reason for THIS thread. I have not seen much discussion on the ethics of killing someone for pre-crime aspects. Do you think that we should kill/punish people if we "know" they are going to do something terrible and yet have not acted?

[58andfixed]

I am glad that was made clear, because it was clear to me, yet I only noticed cursory observations of the 'manipulative nature' [thankfully, by a few] of the "180" video.

That should be a cue to discover more precisely what contributes to people being so easily manipulated.

I would like to add some truths [not ALL truth, or THE truth - simply SOME] as I have discovered them, in the hope that these observations can enable us to be LESS manipulable.

First I would like congratulate all those that participated in this brutally emotionally charged topic that is so relevant today.

1. When 'framing' a choice, people can be 'pointed' to only seeing a 'duality' or 'selected' range of options. I encourage to read & discover more about these poor thinking patterns in a quite thorough "List of Cognitive Biases" to everyones long-lasting benefit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

"Framing effect – drawing different conclusions from the same information, depending on how that information is presented."

2. Another discovery is Heron Stone's "Five Stupidities of English." It is a slightly different perspective to Cognitive Biases, however even more subtle, and helps to keep people debating, arguing, divided, and spinning in rhetoric.

This is slightly over 1 hour of a talk show that I expect everyone to find quite enlightening.

There are two source that don't require registration to acquire.

Episode 648 of September 4, 2011 can be downloaded from here:

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=25018&pageNumber=1&pageSize=15

Download #81 of April 8, 2011 here:

http://www.realityunknown.com/linguistic-programming/

*****

"Those who know the least obey the best."
~~ George Farquhar

Critical thinking may require some time & contemplation to discern the deeper level that we often miss, and I hope I have directed people in a direction that will lead us all towards much more fruitful dialog & collaboration in discerning with more precision what "The Problem" is, and what are merely symptoms.

- 58





the point of THIS thread is to discuss how we handle moral / ethical dilemmas.

[daledo]

Honestly I was shocked that only a few people in the states know about that nazi bastard. What do they teach in school? I mean wow.

An interesting article that I found.

AUSTIN, Tex. — After three days of turbulent meetings, the Texas Board of Education on Friday approved a social studies curriculum that will put a conservative stamp on history and economics textbooks, stressing the superiority of American capitalism, questioning the Founding Fathers’ commitment to a purely secular government and presenting Republican political philosophies in a more positive light. .... Since January, Republicans on the board have passed more than 100 amendments to the 120-page curriculum standards affecting history, sociology and economics courses from elementary to high school.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html
They manipulate how history and many other subjects are portrayed in the educational books with specific agendas in mind.

[Tarka the Duck]

I thought the thread was about Hitler and shooting him in the womb of his mother , i'l leave it now its up to you all, to make sure these millions are not forgotten cheers Steve..

If you had read my recent posts you would know most definately that the point of THIS thread is to discuss how we handle moral / ethical dilemmas. Talking about atrocities around the world, no matter how noble that subject is, does not address the reason for THIS thread. I have not seen much discussion on the ethics of killing someone for pre-crime aspects. Do you think that we should kill/punish people if we "know" they are going to do something terrible and yet have not acted?

Hello U S!
I sense your frustration...;) If you want to discuss these moral dilemmas, perhaps you should consider starting another thread? It's just that the video you posted arouses such passion and complex questioning in those who watch it, that we are going off in all directions - and not in the one you intended:rolleyes: !!
Just a suggestion...
Kathie