The case for Christ

[Krullenjongen]

This is for all people who would like to know some more about the christian faith and about the Man who's name everyone knows.
It will give you some answers about why the new testament is reliable, did Jesus really live, is there any truth to the stories of miracles and the claim Jesus made of being the Son of God.

If you are open minded and like to follow this atheistic lawyer on his journey of discovery, this is for you.
-----------------------------------------

The case for Christ

Has anybody ever compiled the evidence to determine the case for Christ? As a matter of fact, Lee Strobel, an atheist at the time he undertook this endeavor, decided that he would prove Jesus Christ to be a fraud by the weight of the evidence. Strobel was certainly qualified to undertake such a task, compiling the case against Christ. He has a Master of Studies in Law degree from Yale Law School and was an award-winning journalist at the Chicago Tribune. Strobel's area of expertise was Courtroom Analyst and he rose to the rank of Legal Editor of the Chicago Tribune. Furthermore, Strobel was not biased towards defending Christ - he was an atheist!


http://vimeo.com/20330908

[ROMANWKT]

HI Krullenjongen

It does not matter what degrees Lee Strobel has, most of the time it means that they are deeper in the rabbit hole than most of us, secondly, you are dealing with a Jewish theology, which quite plainly says that we are waiting for a messiah named EMMANUEL, so who is Jesus??? the west had to have their own hero,as Jesus, isn't also funny that the only historical evidence of a man called Jesus was mentioned 300 years after his death. It has also been noticed that he is mentioned it the Quran from Islam which is 1'400 + years old , as he, Jesus is mention by Mohamed, and that is still 600 years after Jesus death. what Jesus taught to the people, nobody has any arguments about that, the work is good and of spiritual value, the only argument is that there is no proof that such a person named Jesus existed.
kindest regards
roman

[truthseekerdan]

...what Jesus taught to the people, nobody has any arguments about that, the work is good and of spiritual value, the only argument is that there is no proof that such a person named Jesus existed.
...

Is there any more proof or evidence that Buddha existed? ;)

[ROMANWKT]

...what Jesus taught to the people, nobody has any arguments about that, the work is good and of spiritual value, the only argument is that there is no proof that such a person named Jesus existed.
...

Is there any more proof or evidence that Buddha existed? ;)

Hi truthseekerdan

We'll we need to ask a Buddhist on both of our behalf, as I was brought up as a Christian??
Regards to you, and I like many of your posts here.
roman

[truthseekerdan]

Hi Roman,

As for myself, don't need to ask anyone, except for the divine within to find 'my answers'. :)

Much Love & Wisdom ~ Dan

[RedeZra]

if the New Testament is true


then heaven and hell is real

and sudden destruction will come upon the earth just as in the days of Noah

and only the righteous will supernaturally be lifted up to safety

at the end of the age


if it is true

[GCS1103]

Hi, Krullenjongen-

I'm happy to see you are still with us and I like your thread. I think many people will post here because there is such a diverse group of members with so many beliefs. I respect them all. A world with lots of different beliefs is an interesting place, I think. As you know, I'm a Christian too, having strayed from the standard Jewish thought regarding Jesus. I keep Him in my heart and have personal peace because of Him. I don't ever push my views on anyone, they're just my own.

I hope lots of members post here- it will be interesting to read how everyone feels about this. One interesting side story- when I was at the Awake and Aware conference last month, someone asked Bob Dean if he believed in God. He said he gets that question all the time. His answer was "No, I don't believe in God. I know there is a God." I will have to ask him how he defines God because the conversation ended with his answer.

Anyway, my friend, I hope you are well.

[Camilo]

Christ is a state of conciousness not a person.

[RedeZra]

Christ is a state of beingness/conciousness not a person.

i am in a state of being or consciousness and i'm also a person ; )

[another bob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e64eatdoOzg&feature=related

Blessings!

[Lifebringer]

The bits and pieces of "the books" as Revelation tells make up the whole religion of Christ, at least that is what another Holy book supposedly written by celestial on the full life of Christ. It was found during the 40's ina pyramid and was a blue book. I have read all that has been translated into English as this is my language and I have to rely on the translation from other ethnicities. I found the Urantia Book was quite enlightening and bought together all the religions. It took me five months to read the whole thing, as it started with the "brackish waters" that mammilian life evolved from and up until the right moment, to install the essence and reincarnated soul of God on this world to know and live amongst men and women of the planet that under his will was created. Sorta chilling with the creation to see if all he did was substancial and to join all as a human family on the planet, not tethered to religious ideology, but the teachings for peace, love and to tell of His Father's kingdom, NOT of this world.

With this material world being only in the 3rd, and so low down the vibration was barely heard, until man/woman called upon him for help during times of distress. I was never an athiest, but did seek the truth from all the books combined and that is my reasoning for my understanding that even though his name is called in different languages, he is still the one God on this planet. Lucifer and his fallen band were jealous not just of Jesus/Emmanuel/Michael's creation, but of the very works he did to enlighten man. He also had respect for the female of humanity, as they too are part of the creative mind in which he used for the planet. Before Adom, there was another homosapien female that was instilled with the holy spirit among the tribes of smarter mammals, and ergo the reason for the history channels discovery of the first EVE which looked like simian. If you delve into looking for truth, it will come. It may not be what you thought it was, and amazingly tough to accept after so many have changed or omitted the text to suit their own purpose, and NOT Jesus. The reason for turning over the money changers tables and everything was in there, so the detail in which the celestials explained it, was for "this generation" to utilize. It said so. I understood it perfectly, while they did say at the time of it's discovery, some would not understand it as it wasn't for them or their time.

It was a very good read and to this day, I remember the many names before the re-incarnation among man to know them. Some were Emmanuel, Jesus, and Michael, the original name on other planets he created life on. You see a God has to create on 7 planets before he can sit beside the Father. Earth/Urantia, was Jesus/Michael's 7th planet, according to the text.

[Amysenthia]

I just wrote a very long reply to this post about my personal perspectives about "Jyeshua" and when I was just about finished it was all wiped out. This has happened before and don't understand what is going on with this. I am not going to retype everything again but just want to post my personal experience of having had a very expensive past life regression with a very reputable hypnotherapist in which I found myself living among the Essences as a male in that life being taught by the master called Jyeshua", about healing. He was opening up our chakras,( much like a Reiki session today), and telling us about the power to control our vibrational fields. How interesting that I am in medicine in this life.) Although a very unorthodox member of it. However, I would also say that people should not confuse that Jesus of the Bible or "Jyeshua", would only agree with the Golden rule, Mathew Chapter 7. "Do not judge, Do onto others as you would have done to you, and Love your neighbor." The rest of the bible and chrisianity is religulous, ( to use a Bill Maher pun), and not to be followed.

People need to do their research about the origins of the Bible and realize that it is an ancient product of the NWO that even then was positioning their power to control the masses. Does anyone that has traveled Europe not wonder how the giant, expensive Cathedrals were built with the money of working peasants if not through the fear and guilt of giving over their hard earned money to the church. The "CHRISTIANS" were owned from birth to death by the church. Not what the real Master would have wanted.

If anyone is interested in starting a post about the real Master: Post an answer to start the discussion and lets do it. If not I assume most people that come to this site are not leaning toward this subject.

[Godiam]

Christ is a state of conciousness not a person.

Yes, Yes, Yes!!!

Jesus was the man on the cross,
Christ is the ENERGY,
This loving peaceful feeling,
Is available to You and Me

[Amysenthia]

To answer the recent posts Christ or Christos is a vibrational field but was and has been at certain times incarnated in a person. The christ state is a state of being that all of us can and should ascertain.

[Mu2143]

Christ is not a state of conciousness ,but a being of love. He represents what we normaly are. Because of our condition we ether return to what we always have been or NOT.

This Christ Conciousness is another religion which does not focus on the solution everyhting we are as A HU-Man Being is what the spirit is not.

Remember Satan is a Master Deceiver and Manipulator, so it is not obvious your being deceived.

RSPBtuPPjYo
For some reason the video does not start in the begining

[Davidallany]

Is there any more proof or evidence that Buddha existed?
Only through books, written by Allah knows who.

[another bob]

The christ state is a state of being that all of us can and should ascertain.

Greetings, Friend!

For the benefit of the consideration: if one is not already aware of what the so-called christ state feels like, then they must be dreaming. In fact, we are all intimately familiar with this state, since we are not now, nor have we ever been, separate from it. We generally understand this, except when we assume a human birth (itself of the same nature as a dream) which comes with a built-in amnesia factor, just so that we can grant a sense of reality to the creation (for obvious reasons).

Being raised a devout Catholic, I took a big interest in the concept of becoming "Christ-like". It just seemed like the right program, especially considering the alternatives. I even signed up for the seminary at 13, and spent the next 7 years doing my best at the project of trying to turn myself into what I already am and always have been. I realized along the way that you can't become Christ, you can only stop acting like anything other than that. We like to think in our naivety that Jesus always acted Christ-like, but I doubt it. Part of the deal with being here is screwing up, failing. That's how we discover what we're made of, and how to determine what's real from what's false.

Blessings!

[Amysenthia]

Christ is a state that is only recognized through LOVE!! Not Allah, or anything else, God bless and all! REALLY. Don't start Dogma here

[Tony]

There is an unbroken lineage from the Buddha until now.
Padmasambhava (the second Buddha)was predicted by Shakyamuni Buddha:
Fifteen years after my death, one will come with greater capacity than myself – one with the power to establish the teachings of Vajrayana in the world.


An authentic lineage in Buddhism is the uninterrupted transmission of the Buddha's Dharma from teacher to disciple. The transmission itself can be for example oral, scriptural, through signs, or directly from one mind to another. Several branches of Buddhism, including Zen and Tibetan Buddhism maintain records of their historical teachers. These records serve as a validation for the living exponents of the tradition.

The proof is always in the teachings, of any master.

[another bob]

There is an unbroken lineage from the Buddha until now.
Padmasambhava (the second Buddha)was predicted by Shakyamuni Buddha:
Fifteen years after my death, one will come with greater capacity than myself – one with the power to establish the teachings of Vajrayana in the world.

Greetings, Friend!

Shakyamuni Buddha and Padmasambhava appeared nearly 1600 years apart.

Blessings!

[johnf]

the only real value of a persons story in the teaching of a spiritual practice is too get the student to identify with the teaching on a spiritual basis.
To make this work the story has to be of a human, not a superhuman, and it has to include examples of admirable behavior that the student would like to make a part of his life. Once I found the story of christ to be a story about a normal human being who was also a spiritual being, it's value for me rose, because now I had
an attainable goal. If the story of a buddha or whatever you want to call it claims them to be a special being, it detracts from the value of the teaching, and renders it useful only to those who desire to pretend to be special and to be heirs of a special right to take rights from others.
Most spiritual teachings devolve into something like this sometime after their beginnings. Using a lawyer to "Prove" the existance of somebody doesn't help anyone but the false rulers.

[grapevine]

If anyone is interested in starting a post about the real Master: Post an answer to start the discussion and lets do it. If not I assume most people that come to this site are not leaning toward this subject.

Do you mean Maitreya ...?

[Snowbird]

If anyone is interested in starting a post about the real Master: Post an answer to start the discussion and lets do it. If not I assume most people that come to this site are not leaning toward this subject.

To whom do you refer? Krishna? Buddha? Jesus? Each one of us?

Just a note about posting on these threads, Amysenthia, I learned some time ago to use a NotePad or WordPad for long posts and then copy/paste them in. Also, sometimes when we type something into these posting fields, what has been typed appears to disappear until you click once in the posting field and your post pops back. I have no idea why this happens.

______________

This afternoon, I started watching the video in the opening post. Let me add here that I was once a Christian who tried very hard to make sense of Christianity and failed. I think that Lee Strobel is sincere as he relates his story. I did not get too far into the video because I had to run some errands and I may or may not finish watching it.

One thing that caught my immediate attention was the fact that the experts that he chose to determine the validity of Christianity were all Christians. There were no other Atheists or believers from other and varying religions and faiths. This, sent up a red flag. This so called quest to learn the truth, became the equivalent of a biblical course in Christianity by learned Christians. And, I might add that I only saw men and no women. This was a very biased group who would never utter a word against the religion that they supported or supported them.

I was hoping that Lee would reach out to people of both genders from religions that could offer some unbiased information, such as those listed below.

I think that for many people, joining a religion is a stepping stone into coming into the knowledge of their own personal power and stature. But I've often wondered when I hear someone from a religion, any religion, state that their system of belief is the truth and the only truth, what would happen if we put all of these differing religious people into a room to come to a conclusion as to who is right and who is wrong.

Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents

There are twelve classical world religions.

Baha'i
Buddhism
Christianity
Confucianism
Hinduism
Islam
Jainism
Judaism
Shinto
Sikhism
Taoism
Zoroastrianism


http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

[Lord Sidious]

Christ is a state that is only recognized through LOVE!! Not Allah, or anything else, God bless and all! REALLY. Don't start Dogma here

If you are replying to Davidallany, then he was being sarcastic/ironic.

[modwiz]

Christ is a state that is only recognized through LOVE!! Not Allah, or anything else, God bless and all! REALLY. Don't start Dogma here

If you are replying to Davidallany, then he was being sarcastic/ironic.

Woof woof. I hear a dogma barking.:rolleyes:

[Ellisa]

I thought Jesus was the Hebrew form of Joshua (someone else has mentioned this.)
Emmanuel means something like "God is with us" and was used to denote the coming messiah, not a personal name, as we sometimes see it now.
Christ, as a term, has been defined by many already. I will not add another interpretation and merely say that it was a term used after Jesus' death.

Perhaps people who believe Jesus was the incarnation of a god do not need to worry about the name too much. They themselves believe in his divinity and recognise it through their faith, and often throughout the whole universe.

[RedeZra]

if the New Testament is true


then Satan has tricked almost all

in some way or the other


and for the vast majority

Jesus died in vain


if it is true

[jorr lundstrom]

I just got here. Who are you talking about?

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/vitknlval.jpg

[Heyoka_11]

Here is my experience, and it's a personal one:

I used to suffer from one of the worst headache conditions known to medical science, and over a nine year period had multiple thousands of attacks, each of which would develop, peak, and subside in exactly the same manner.

The one and only time that I called out to Jesus Christ to take the f***ing pain out of my head, the pain disappeared as the words left my mouth.

Whilst not in and of itself proof of anything, it was enough for me.

When you pray to Jesus Christ, your words are heard. :)

[Tony]

There is an unbroken lineage from the Buddha until now.
Padmasambhava (the second Buddha)was predicted by Shakyamuni Buddha:
Fifteen years after my death, one will come with greater capacity than myself – one with the power to establish the teachings of Vajrayana in the world.

Greetings, Friend!

Shakyamuni Buddha and Padmasambhava appeared nearly 1600 years apart.

Blessings!

Apologies...I was on my way to bed when I wrote this last night and seem to have lost a few noughts somewhere!

Tony

[Lord Sidious]

if the New Testament is true


then Satan has tricked almost all

in some way or the other


and for the vast majority

Jesus died in vain


if it is true

And if it is not?
In the jewish tradition, from which yours is descended, ha satan is not an individual, but a title, or description.

[Davidallany]

if the New Testament is true


then Satan has tricked almost all

in some way or the other


and for the vast majority

Jesus died in vain


if it is true

Satan is powerful, but still, he is no match for the Dark side of the Force. his worship Lord Sidious is the main man. Satan is my buddy and teacher.

[Davidallany]

When you pray to Jesus Christ, your words are heard
I remember seeing this in Bruce Almighty.

There must be something wrong with middle-east Christians, for no matter how many time they prayed for peace, there was no divine intervention, not in a couple of thousand years.

iplfWUtKMzI

[Tony]

All prayers are answered...we are receivers, and there are blessings from transmitters, good and bad. It all depend on one's inner intention.

[Anchor]

When you pray to Jesus Christ, your words are heard. :)


There must be something wrong with middle-east Christians, for no matter how many time they prayed for peace, there was no divine intervention, not in a couple of thousand years.

Big difference, one was a powerful single minded call for individual healing under freewill, the other...

...is complicated :)

[RedeZra]

And if it is not?
In the jewish tradition, from which yours is descended, ha satan is not an individual, but a title, or description.

if the New Testament is not true

then we find Mara and narakas in Buddhism

as equivalents to Satan and hell


we don't believe in heaven and hell because we have no experience of it yet or perhaps we just don't recollect it

we only believe our experiences or rather memories and those we trust


i guess we will have to wait to find out where we go with our last breath


so if the New Testament is not true

we might wind up in naraka or hell anyway

[RedeZra]

Satan is powerful, but still, he is no match for the Dark side of the Force. his worship Lord Sidious is the main man. Satan is my buddy and teacher.

so it's like a trinity

Sith Satan and yourself ; )

[truthseekerdan]

...then we find Mara and narakas in Buddhism

as equivalents to Satan and hell...



http://www.youaretrulyloved.com/enlightenment/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/homer-devil-angel-shoulders.gif

Let's see how they line up... Devil & Satan = Ego? You decide for yourself! :rolleyes: :)

If the ego is the separation between us and the divine, then the "fall" would be divinity coming into the dense matter and separating from the oneness it had in the unmanifest. Satan (adversary) is related to density - and bodily desire, greed, hate, and gluttony.

In Buddhism Satan is basically equivalent to "Mara" the god of delusion (Mara tempts the Buddha with desire and anger during an all night meditation, and the Buddha resists and becomes enlightened).

In Hinduism Mara is the Goddess of Death. Maya is a more prominent goddess who rules illusion and the duality of existence. Even though illusion and duality are to be overcome - she's not seen as evil per se, just doing her job keeping us in the dark.

In Judaism (old testament) Satan is "the accuser".
In Islam, Satan is called Iblis and refused to bow before Adam at the beginning of humanity. And he's not an angel at all. In Islam angels do not have free will - but a Jinn (genie) who like a human has free will.

If the ego is delusion, that separates us from the divine, tempt us with desire, delude us, refuse to bow to us, and seems to have free will -- then sure Satan = Ego.

Hope this explanation helps, and I don't have to be right. We already live in hell... :wink:

Dan ~ :wub:

[WhiteFeather]

This is for all people who would like to know some more about the christian faith and about the Man who's name everyone knows.
It will give you some answers about why the new testament is reliable, did Jesus really live, is there any truth to the stories of miracles and the claim Jesus made of being the Son of God.

If you are open minded and like to follow this atheistic lawyer on his journey of discovery, this is for you.
-----------------------------------------

The case for Christ

Has anybody ever compiled the evidence to determine the case for Christ? As a matter of fact, Lee Strobel, an atheist at the time he undertook this endeavor, decided that he would prove Jesus Christ to be a fraud by the weight of the evidence. Strobel was certainly qualified to undertake such a task, compiling the case against Christ. He has a Master of Studies in Law degree from Yale Law School and was an award-winning journalist at the Chicago Tribune. Strobel's area of expertise was Courtroom Analyst and he rose to the rank of Legal Editor of the Chicago Tribune. Furthermore, Strobel was not biased towards defending Christ - he was an atheist!


http://vimeo.com/20330908

The awakened ones, spiritually evolved and meek persons will become the 2nd coming of Christ Consciousness thus inheriting this earth.

[Lord Sidious]

...then we find Mara and narakas in Buddhism

as equivalents to Satan and hell...



http://www.youaretrulyloved.com/enlightenment/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/homer-devil-angel-shoulders.gif

Let's see how they line up... Devil & Satan = Ego? You decide for yourself! :rolleyes: :)

If the ego is the separation between us and the divine, then the "fall" would be divinity coming into the dense matter and separating from the oneness it had in the unmanifest. Satan (adversary) is related to density - and bodily desire, greed, hate, and gluttony.

In Buddhism Satan is basically equivalent to "Mara" the god of delusion (Mara tempts the Buddha with desire and anger during an all night meditation, and the Buddha resists and becomes enlightened).

In Hinduism Mara is the Goddess of Death. Maya is a more prominent goddess who rules illusion and the duality of existence. Even though illusion and duality are to be overcome - she's not seen as evil per se, just doing her job keeping us in the dark.

In Judaism (old testament) Satan is "the accuser".
In Islam, Satan is called Iblis and refused to bow before Adam at the beginning of humanity. And he's not an angel at all. In Islam angels do not have free will - but a Jinn (genie) who like a human has free will.

If the ego is delusion, that separates us from the divine, tempt us with desire, delude us, refuse to bow to us, and seems to have free will -- then sure Satan = Ego.

Hope this explanation helps, and I don't have to be right. We already live in hell... :wink:

Dan ~ :wub:

Ha Satan isn't an individual in judaism, it is a title that can be applied to many things/people, much like shaitan in islam.

[kreagle]

The Jewish people had it totally right when they were taught to believe in ONE GOD and were adament in their devotion to Him and Him only. Deuteronomy 6:4-7 states 4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

The problem with the Jewish people is that they failed to recognize that this SAME GOD came to earth in the form of man, and became the Sacrificial LAMB for all of humanity.
John 1:1 states: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 states also : 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Ellisa wrote, in part.....Emmanuel means something like "God is with us" and was used to denote the coming messiah, not a personal name, as we sometimes see it now..This statement is true and backed up by Matthew

Matthew 1: 21-23 states: 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us

[I]Note: this post was written in an attempt to identify who this Christ really was,....and why He came here to begin with. I'm afraid it may contradict what some here may personally believe. The concepts I've read here are indeed spread out in many directions.

[Davidallany]

Sith Satan and yourself ; )

I am not sure if you're asking a question or just making a comment. What's with the winky face?

[13th Warrior]

Religion sure can be confusing can't it?

This is the thought that helps me see more clearly the trees from the forest..."There is only one God but, he has many faces"

[9eagle9]

Hi Roman.

Well...whoever Christ is or whoever the Lord is...(a talisman word there) ...and I can't deny there are some interesting debates concerning the Christ Archetype....I'm certain it doesn't matter in the present.

Most of it can be summed up by :

The Lord is not my shepherd....cause I'm not a sheep.



HI Krullenjongen

It does not matter what degrees Lee Strobel has, most of the time it means that they are deeper in the rabbit hole than most of us, secondly, you are dealing with a Jewish theology, which quite plainly says that we are waiting for a messiah named EMMANUEL, so who is Jesus??? the west had to have their own hero,as Jesus, isn't also funny that the only historical evidence of a man called Jesus was mentioned 300 years after his death. It has also been noticed that he is mentioned it the Quran from Islam which is 1'400 + years old , as he, Jesus is mention by Mohamed, and that is still 600 years after Jesus death. what Jesus taught to the people, nobody has any arguments about that, the work is good and of spiritual value, the only argument is that there is no proof that such a person named Jesus existed.
kindest regards
roman

[RedeZra]

Ha Satan isn't an individual in judaism, it is a title that can be applied to many things/people, much like shaitan in islam.

Satan is a son of God (ben elohiym) and a spirit in Judaism and Adam is a son of God and a man

Satan is depicted as a spiteful spirit roaming the earth in the book of Job

and when God praises Job for his righteousness Satan is eager to afflict him with misery


Satan is a most fitting name for a spiteful spirit and a hint as it means Adversary or Enemy


Ego does not exist at all... it's just another word for being selfish

which we can change


we can't change Satan but he can change us and so can Christ



---



Sith Satan and yourself ; )

I am not sure if you're asking a question or just making a comment. What's with the winky face?

i'm just jokin makin a winky joke bro

[58andfixed]

I concur with where you are going.

I don't want to distance myself from others here at PA. I do not want to divide ourselves into sub-groups.

There are three major issues, and they are frequently blended into something that some believe shouldn't be separated: Organized Religion, The Bible, and Jesus/God.

Jesus is a great teacher and master. Organized Religion has caused much grief, and apologetic material acknowledges over 33,000 denominations in Christianity.

There has been centuries of blow-back, due to the negative features of Organized Religion [historical track-record] and The Bible [conflicts, contradictions, contextual errors.]

I have repeated this same message in various threads over a dozen times, and it sure upsets people who are biased for the need to rely on The Bible for an understanding of Jesus, and to pick some one of the 33,000 denominations, but the one they pick is the right one --- while everyone else has made the wrong denominational choice.

With the 'normal & lower golden rule; = "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" seems to be cited to the exclusion of John 13:34 ""A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." - The 'Higher' Golden rule aka WWJD, but found so infrequently.

I am with you too. If people say they are seekers of truth, are you willing to examine any Organized Church Doctrine, or contextual issues in The Bible, to fully test and examine to see if there could be a bias you have not recognized ?

I don't want to start an argument, with defensive positions. I would like a dialog with referenced material to substantiate claims, especially the assumed one.

- 58

... only agree with the Golden rule, Mathew Chapter 7. "Do not judge, Do onto others as you would have done to you, and Love your neighbor."

People need to do their research about the origins of the Bible and realize that it is an ancient product of the NWO that even then was positioning their power to control the masses.

Does anyone that has traveled Europe not wonder how the giant, expensive Cathedrals were built with the money of working peasants if not through the fear and guilt of giving over their hard earned money to the church.

The "CHRISTIANS" were owned from birth to death by the church.

Not what the real Master would have wanted.

[Anchor]

Sometimes when one goes on a journey, just for fun, you can make some wrong turns, the road signs might not be so good, but the journey ends up fun.

Sometimes you see agreeable things, sometimes you see disagreeable things.

All the time you *can* learn from those things.

Not everyone does though.

But I like to see it when more and more people do.

And I love it when those people teach what they learn.

And I do see that these days.

So I respect all the paths.

Truth is a pathless land. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?12377-Krishnamurti-Truth-Is-A-Pathless-Land)

:)

[Lettherebelight]

Wow, this discussion fills me with renewed faith in humanity. Thanks be to all you wise souls.

http://ritafontes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/let-there-be-light.jpg

[9eagle9]

The thing about distance and one's beliefs is not what the belief is. It can be Christianity , Judaism, Atheism or the Cult of the Flying Spaghetti monster.


It's the ATTACHMENT to the belief that causes conflict. The Self Identification with it. One invests their self identification, their personal importance, in a belief. And when the belief is challlenged like it nearly always can be..... People take it personally. Because they made the belief personal.

A belief is reallly like an opinion, opinions are personal, and when they are disagreed with or not undertaken with the gravity that the holder desires, then conflict erupts.

It's the way we hold our beliefs that make distance.

Truth doesn't contradict itself.

Most beliefs systems do. There's a reason for that. We are historicallly conditioned to rationalize contradictions. That conditioning from our various religious systems that state that God Loves us, God will punish us, God is all Powerful but God allows evil to run rampant because God loves us, God is peaceful God is vengeful, God loves his children but gave his ONLY son up to be tortured and murdered.

Those are opposing values and they all contradict themselves. Somehow the conscious mind rationalized these conradictions but the unconscious mind is in a state of turmoil and conflict.

Most of our 'new age' beliefs have these same values but they just sound fluffier or their masked. Painted over with a veneer of light but the core value of the beleif remains the same. Karma dispensing reward and punishment is basically the God of the Old Testament. A ufo coming to save us is basically another version of Christ coming to bail us out. Different stories holding the same core value.

The conflict is present in the person holding these beliefs long before they encounter anyone who may have an challenging opinion about them.

A belief is an idea and a concept. It's not people and its not personal. However people who personally invest their self identity in a belief system will take it personally, and emotionally, when that belief system is found to have a whole lot of contradictions and opposing core values in it. The person percieves THEY are faulty because they've wrapped so much of themselves up in the belief system. They can't separate from it and think "I'm okay; the belief is faulty."

Whose fault is it? The observer who notices the contradiction?

Or is it the fault of the contradiction held in the belief system?

Its actually in the belief system but the observer who notices , who is AWAKE and AWARE, enough to notice the contradictions and opposing values, is usually the one who is blamed.


I concur with where you are going.

I don't want to distance myself from others here at PA. I do not want to divide ourselves into sub-groups.

There are three major issues, and they are frequently blended into something that some believe shouldn't be separated: Organized Religion, The Bible, and Jesus/God.

Jesus is a great teacher and master. Organized Religion has caused much grief, and apologetic material acknowledges over 33,000 denominations in Christianity.

There has been centuries of blow-back, due to the negative features of Organized Religion [historical track-record] and The Bible [conflicts, contradictions, contextual errors.]

I have repeated this same message in various threads over a dozen times, and it sure upsets people who are biased for the need to rely on The Bible for an understanding of Jesus, and to pick some one of the 33,000 denominations, but the one they pick is the right one --- while everyone else has made the wrong denominational choice.

With the 'normal & lower golden rule; = "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" seems to be cited to the exclusion of John 13:34 ""A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." - The 'Higher' Golden rule aka WWJD, but found so infrequently.

I am with you too. If people say they are seekers of truth, are you willing to examine any Organized Church Doctrine, or contextual issues in The Bible, to fully test and examine to see if there could be a bias you have not recognized ?

I don't want to start an argument, with defensive positions. I would like a dialog with referenced material to substantiate claims, especially the assumed one.

- 58

... only agree with the Golden rule, Mathew Chapter 7. "Do not judge, Do onto others as you would have done to you, and Love your neighbor."

People need to do their research about the origins of the Bible and realize that it is an ancient product of the NWO that even then was positioning their power to control the masses.

Does anyone that has traveled Europe not wonder how the giant, expensive Cathedrals were built with the money of working peasants if not through the fear and guilt of giving over their hard earned money to the church.

The "CHRISTIANS" were owned from birth to death by the church.

Not what the real Master would have wanted.

[58andfixed]

It IS refreshing to discover someone who has essentially come to a similar conclusion about "The Problem" on this Planet, where everything else are simply symptoms of this issue, of how we cause so much grief for one another.

I have oversimplified it into the list on Wikipedia:

It is a "List of Cognitive Biases:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

"A cognitive bias is a pattern of poor judgment, often triggered by a particular situation."

"Identifying "poor judgment," or more precisely, a "deviation in judgment," requires a standard for comparison, i.e. "good judgment"."

"In scientific investigations of cognitive bias, the source of "good judgment" is that of people outside the situation hypothesized to cause the poor judgment, or, if possible, a set of independently verifiable facts."

"Belief bias – an effect where someone's evaluation of the logical strength of an argument is biased by the believability of the conclusion."

****

Everything on this Planet has been engineered to get the 99% to limit their thinking to that of what I refer to as "mere belief."

Ancient archeology is finally uncovering the remnants of systems that have covered thousands of years, and all that remains are the temples made for the 1%, perhaps some of the mummified remains of those 1%, and nothing of the 99%.

Archaeologists may get caught up in creating more complexity out of the symbols or details, however the essentials are: the 99%, the 1%, and the temples used to create belief systems.

What happens is that these civilizations come to an end, and all that remains are the temples. And the people who discover them wonder what they are reflections of. They are reflections of failed civilizations that depended on belief systems.

It is my 'belief' that once I began to elevate my quality of thinking by questioning and discovering 'truths' and discerning their validity by the 'test of time,' I could become better at discernment.

I cannot, however, communicate to anyone who has not experienced a sense of 'notions' that comes with this elevated, evolved quality of thinking that transcends "mere belief."

Some will *know* and others would simply be guessing.

The task, it seems to me, it to use the "List of Cognitive Biases" to assist ourselves with our inner path, so that we can first unwind our own biases about what we like to believe.

Further down the road, it also seems to me, that it will become much easier to collaborate, accept one another for our differences, and find a UNITY that avoids UNIFORMITY.

At that point we can set to the tasks of ridding ourselves of division, war, polarizing politics, polarizing organized religion, stacked judicial systems, stacked financial systems, and a biased media.

I think that until we can improve our quality of thinking, we are deluding ourselves into 'believing' we can deal with all these above mentioned symptoms without understanding the core "Problem."

- 58



It's the ATTACHMENT to the belief that causes conflict. The Self Identification with it. One invests their self identification, their personal importance, in a belief. And when the belief is challenged like it nearly always can be..... People take it personally. Because they made the belief personal.

A belief is really like an opinion, opinions are personal, and when they are disagreed with or not undertaken with the gravity that the holder desires, then conflict erupts.

It's the way we hold our beliefs that make distance.

Truth doesn't contradict itself.

Most beliefs systems do.

The conflict is present in the person holding these beliefs long before they encounter anyone who may have an challenging opinion about them.

A belief is an idea and a concept. It's not people and its not personal.

Whose fault is it? The observer who notices the contradiction?

Or is it the fault of the contradiction held in the belief system?

Its actually in the belief system but the observer who notices , who is AWAKE and AWARE, enough to notice the contradictions and opposing values, is usually the one who is blamed.

[RedeZra]

it begins as a belief

and if it's true

then faith and patience will reveal it

to the believer


but the unbeliever will still call it a belief ; )

[RedeZra]

It is my 'belief' that once I began to elevate my quality of thinking by questioning and discovering 'truths' and discerning their validity by the 'test of time,' I could become better at discernment.

I cannot, however, communicate to anyone who has not experienced a sense of 'notions' that comes with this elevated, evolved quality of thinking that transcends "mere belief."

Some will *know* and others would simply be guessing.



you have a fine mind

but this is a spiritual struggle

and we are souls


the problem of this planet is the spiteful spirits and the people who serve them


such spirits are on a long time line but time is up and this is the end of the line

this is the end of an age


we need to get straight with God yesterday

[another bob]

we need to get straight with God yesterday

Greetings, Friend!

Consider, if you will, the possibility that we can never get unstraight with God. We never have been and we never will be. This very life, however it appears to be, is actually exactly right from the point of view of God. The fact that we might have some problem with it is purely a function of our temporary amnesia, which is in turn necessary in order for God to experience the illusion of being unstraight with God-ness, for goodness sake! Don't ask me why -- just curiosity, it seems, but in any case, all is well with that, and all is well with the planet (if one can qualify a virtual reality game as such).

Blessings!

[RedeZra]

we need to get straight with God yesterday

Greetings, Friend!

Consider, if you will, the possibility that we can never get unstraight with God. We never have been and we never will be. This very life, however it appears to be, is actually exactly right from the point of view of God. The fact that we might have some problem with it is purely a function of our temporary amnesia, which is in turn necessary in order for God to experience the illusion of being unstraight with God-ness, for goodness sake!

hi bro Bob

sure i can consider intellectual acrobatics and in fact i like to debate

but i have to include the Jesus piece of this puzzle in my understanding of the Big picture

because i know He is real and so i have to deal with it


the reasoning that everything is fine circumvents Jesus Christ and i can't do that and i don't want to do that

Blessings too

[Seikou-Kishi]

To my mind, Jesus has been betrayed by every church which has ever professed his name. The personal Christianity, so far as I have witnessed, is unassuming, reserved and contemplative, but Christianity the brand is bombastic, boisterous and dictatorial. True Christians have as much reason to resent the impositions of His Holiness and all other hierarchs. To quote John 14:6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" though those hierarchs would have you believe it were "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me and blind obedience to my bishops.'"

[another bob]

we need to get straight with God yesterday

Greetings, Friend!

Consider, if you will, the possibility that we can never get unstraight with God. We never have been and we never will be. This very life, however it appears to be, is actually exactly right from the point of view of God. The fact that we might have some problem with it is purely a function of our temporary amnesia, which is in turn necessary in order for God to experience the illusion of being unstraight with God-ness, for goodness sake!

hi bro Bob

sure i can consider intellectual acrobatics and in fact i like to debate

but i have to include the Jesus piece of this puzzle in my understanding of the Big picture

because i know He is real and so i have to deal with it


the reasoning that everything is fine circumvents Jesus Christ and i can't do that and i don't want to do that

Blessings too

Greetings, Friend!

It's fine that you've got Christ to help light your way, at least until you realize that it's been fine all along, that you and Christ have never been two, and there's nothing about that in need of debate.

Blessings!

[realitycorrodes]

“Christianity is a great idea…when are they going to start

putting it into practice?”- Jacque Fresco

Distraction, distraction, distraction.

No-one outside is needed. The ingredient is us plus awareness directed within us - instead of outside (at external distractions)

When is this delusional power game going to end. Talk about viruses.

Its all about us going within and finding out who we are so we can behave harmonically like the metaphors of all spiritual teachers alert us to. Everything else is

just egotistical nit picking.

[Ellisa]

9eagle9-- Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is a lack of belief. Atheists do not believe in Atheism, because there is nothing to believe in. Atheists have no belief in the existence of the divine or the supernatural, preferring instead to trust in the innate goodness and sense that is present in us all.

There are bad people in the world. Some are disgusting, some are just unkind, most are somewhere in the middle. Some are believers in some form of god, some have no belief, they are no worse or better than each other. On the other hand some people are good, kind, loving and help others. Some of these are believers in god and some are atheists.

We are all human and can choose to believe or not. Goodness is not in any way a prerogative of belief.

[58andfixed]

A valuable lesson in discernment to be had between belief and faith.

I have used the lack of evidence for the basis of faith. There is no evidence for God. There are stories about Jesus, and other masters, but nothing to go to, to look at, to photograph, to weigh, as evidence for them.

Belief is not faith. Faith, or the lack of faith, can be the basis for belief.

I have interfaced with many over decades of time, that interchange the use of belief and faith to their loss of clarity of either.

Yet, there is an experience that transcends mere belief, and the experience requires involvement and commitment.

It is the process of which OWS, the "We Move to Amend" 'movements,' and likely more are using. They are deeply involved and committed to an idea, and ideas like that don't just come and go -- they are the stuff that social transitions are made of, because all of a sudden, people get it and become the change as well.

This is where the "self-revealing" occurs, for if a functional response has been initiated, the response will evolve because there is potential for improvements due to a higher commitment yet undiscovered.

Patience has a reward.

This is not a wide-spread understanding of belief and faith, yet it is mine, and for me has stood the test of time very well. :)

- 58


it begins as a belief

and if it's true

then faith and patience will reveal it

to the believer

but the unbeliever will still call it a belief ;)

[meeradas]

- edited -
:bored::angel::suspicious::shocked::twitch::dizzy::biggrin1:

[shamanseeker]

I just wrote a very long reply to this post about my personal perspectives about "Jyeshua" and when I was just about finished it was all wiped out. This has happened before and don't understand what is going on with this. I am not going to retype everything again but just want to post my personal experience of having had a very expensive past life regression with a very reputable hypnotherapist in which I found myself living among the Essences as a male in that life being taught by the master called Jyeshua", about healing. He was opening up our chakras,( much like a Reiki session today), and telling us about the power to control our vibrational fields. How interesting that I am in medicine in this life.) Although a very unorthodox member of it. However, I would also say that people should not confuse that Jesus of the Bible or "Jyeshua", would only agree with the Golden rule, Mathew Chapter 7. "Do not judge, Do onto others as you would have done to you, and Love your neighbor." The rest of the bible and chrisianity is religulous, ( to use a Bill Maher pun), and not to be followed.

People need to do their research about the origins of the Bible and realize that it is an ancient product of the NWO that even then was positioning their power to control the masses. Does anyone that has traveled Europe not wonder how the giant, expensive Cathedrals were built with the money of working peasants if not through the fear and guilt of giving over their hard earned money to the church. The "CHRISTIANS" were owned from birth to death by the church. Not what the real Master would have wanted.

If anyone is interested in starting a post about the real Master: Post an answer to start the discussion and lets do it. If not I assume most people that come to this site are not leaning toward this subject.


Spot on, Amysenthia! Agree with you 100%. Until people realize that what you say is true, this planet will remain deeply entangled in the matrix.

[Krullenjongen]

HI Krullenjongen

It does not matter what degrees Lee Strobel has, most of the time it means that they are deeper in the rabbit hole than most of us, secondly, you are dealing with a Jewish theology, which quite plainly says that we are waiting for a messiah named EMMANUEL, so who is Jesus??? the west had to have their own hero,as Jesus, isn't also funny that the only historical evidence of a man called Jesus was mentioned 300 years after his death. It has also been noticed that he is mentioned it the Quran from Islam which is 1'400 + years old , as he, Jesus is mention by Mohamed, and that is still 600 years after Jesus death. what Jesus taught to the people, nobody has any arguments about that, the work is good and of spiritual value, the only argument is that there is no proof that such a person named Jesus existed.
kindest regards
roman

Well it is clear that you haven't watched the video otherwise you would not have made such silly remarks.
There is a lot of writing about Jesus before 300 AD, in fact some of the apostles writings are dated before 300 AD so please look at the evidence first before you comment.

And about the name emmanual (which means God with us) it is a TITLE and NOT a name. He is also called Sons of God, Son of men, the second Adam (but we were not waiting for a guy named Adam), light of the world and the king of the Jews...........so????

[Krullenjongen]

Christ is a state of conciousness not a person.

And this state of consciousness was named after......???

Don't get me wrong i am not saying you cannot be "Christ like".
But if this state of consciousness is named after Christ and He did not exist than this expression has no meaning.

[Krullenjongen]

I just wrote a very long reply to this post about my personal perspectives about "Jyeshua" and when I was just about finished it was all wiped out. This has happened before and don't understand what is going on with this. I am not going to retype everything again but just want to post my personal experience of having had a very expensive past life regression with a very reputable hypnotherapist in which I found myself living among the Essences as a male in that life being taught by the master called Jyeshua", about healing. He was opening up our chakras,( much like a Reiki session today), and telling us about the power to control our vibrational fields. How interesting that I am in medicine in this life.) Although a very unorthodox member of it. However, I would also say that people should not confuse that Jesus of the Bible or "Jyeshua", would only agree with the Golden rule, Mathew Chapter 7. "Do not judge, Do onto others as you would have done to you, and Love your neighbor." The rest of the bible and chrisianity is religulous, ( to use a Bill Maher pun), and not to be followed.

So your source of information was a hypnotic regression?
And you find that reliable?

I would be much the same if i started this thread and said the information came to me in a dream.

Both in my opinion are unreliable, that's why i started this thread with a video that looks at real evidence.

[Krullenjongen]

To answer the recent posts Christ or Christos is a vibrational field but was and has been at certain times incarnated in a person. The christ state is a state of being that all of us can and should ascertain.

Again how can there be a Christ state of being if Christ did not exist to define what this state would look like?

Why is it so hard for some people to believe God incarnated in the flesh while they claim that there is a vibrational filed that can incarnate into a human being? In my opinion this is much more far fetched.
Is there any evidence to support such claims???

[Krullenjongen]

If anyone is interested in starting a post about the real Master: Post an answer to start the discussion and lets do it. If not I assume most people that come to this site are not leaning toward this subject.

To whom do you refer? Krishna? Buddha? Jesus? Each one of us?

Just a note about posting on these threads, Amysenthia, I learned some time ago to use a NotePad or WordPad for long posts and then copy/paste them in. Also, sometimes when we type something into these posting fields, what has been typed appears to disappear until you click once in the posting field and your post pops back. I have no idea why this happens.

______________

This afternoon, I started watching the video in the opening post. Let me add here that I was once a Christian who tried very hard to make sense of Christianity and failed. I think that Lee Strobel is sincere as he relates his story. I did not get too far into the video because I had to run some errands and I may or may not finish watching it.

One thing that caught my immediate attention was the fact that the experts that he chose to determine the validity of Christianity were all Christians. There were no other Atheists or believers from other and varying religions and faiths. This, sent up a red flag. This so called quest to learn the truth, became the equivalent of a biblical course in Christianity by learned Christians. And, I might add that I only saw men and no women. This was a very biased group who would never utter a word against the religion that they supported or supported them.

I was hoping that Lee would reach out to people of both genders from religions that could offer some unbiased information, such as those listed below.

I think that for many people, joining a religion is a stepping stone into coming into the knowledge of their own personal power and stature. But I've often wondered when I hear someone from a religion, any religion, state that their system of belief is the truth and the only truth, what would happen if we put all of these differing religious people into a room to come to a conclusion as to who is right and who is wrong.

Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents

There are twelve classical world religions.

Baha'i
Buddhism
Christianity
Confucianism
Hinduism
Islam
Jainism
Judaism
Shinto
Sikhism
Taoism
Zoroastrianism


http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Thanks for the effort! At least you gave it a try to see what was being said.
I can see your objection and i partly agree that i would be better to include comments from any other view but i have to say that the questions the other views pose are being asked and investigated.
Besides that, if i wanted to know more about Islam wouldn't i talk to a Imam of if i wanted to know more about Buddhism wouldn't i talk to a Buddhist?

[Lord Sidious]

You know what would be great?
If you would learn to multipost.

[Krullenjongen]

Here is my experience, and it's a personal one:

I used to suffer from one of the worst headache conditions known to medical science, and over a nine year period had multiple thousands of attacks, each of which would develop, peak, and subside in exactly the same manner.

The one and only time that I called out to Jesus Christ to take the f***ing pain out of my head, the pain disappeared as the words left my mouth.

Whilst not in and of itself proof of anything, it was enough for me.

When you pray to Jesus Christ, your words are heard. :)

Thanks for this testimony.
I have experienced similar things happen under the power of prayer in the name of Jesus.

[Krullenjongen]

Hi Roman.

Well...whoever Christ is or whoever the Lord is...(a talisman word there) ...and I can't deny there are some interesting debates concerning the Christ Archetype....I'm certain it doesn't matter in the present.

Most of it can be summed up by :

The Lord is not my shepherd....cause I'm not a sheep.

That's like saying " .......is not my father........cause i am not a child ;)

[Krullenjongen]

Ha Satan isn't an individual in judaism, it is a title that can be applied to many things/people, much like shaitan in islam.

Satan is a son of God (ben elohiym) and a spirit in Judaism and Adam is a son of God and a man

I have to disagree with you here RedeZra.
Satan is not a son of God, he was an angel and after his rebellion he was a fallen angel.
To my knowledge nowhere in the bible is it said that satan was a son of God or are angels classified as sons of God.
If you know of any biblical texts that say otherwise please let me know.

[Krullenjongen]

we need to get straight with God yesterday

Greetings, Friend!

Consider, if you will, the possibility that we can never get unstraight with God. We never have been and we never will be. This very life, however it appears to be, is actually exactly right from the point of view of God. The fact that we might have some problem with it is purely a function of our temporary amnesia, which is in turn necessary in order for God to experience the illusion of being unstraight with God-ness, for goodness sake! Don't ask me why -- just curiosity, it seems, but in any case, all is well with that, and all is well with the planet (if one can qualify a virtual reality game as such).

Blessings!

If we never can get unstraight with God then why did God have to sent Jesus?

[Krullenjongen]

To my mind, Jesus has been betrayed by every church which has ever professed his name. The personal Christianity, so far as I have witnessed, is unassuming, reserved and contemplative, but Christianity the brand is bombastic, boisterous and dictatorial. True Christians have as much reason to resent the impositions of His Holiness and all other hierarchs. To quote John 14:6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" though those hierarchs would have you believe it were "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me and blind obedience to my bishops.'"

I agee that there is much wrong with "the church" but does that mean that Christ isn't real?
There is much wrong with capitalism also but does it mean that the whole system is wrong?
The thing people make of their religion or do in name of their religion does not mean that is what this religion stands for.

[Krullenjongen]

we need to get straight with God yesterday

Greetings, Friend!

Consider, if you will, the possibility that we can never get unstraight with God. We never have been and we never will be. This very life, however it appears to be, is actually exactly right from the point of view of God. The fact that we might have some problem with it is purely a function of our temporary amnesia, which is in turn necessary in order for God to experience the illusion of being unstraight with God-ness, for goodness sake!

hi bro Bob

sure i can consider intellectual acrobatics and in fact i like to debate

but i have to include the Jesus piece of this puzzle in my understanding of the Big picture

because i know He is real and so i have to deal with it


the reasoning that everything is fine circumvents Jesus Christ and i can't do that and i don't want to do that

Blessings too

Greetings, Friend!

It's fine that you've got Christ to help light your way, at least until you realize that it's been fine all along, that you and Christ have never been two, and there's nothing about that in need of debate.

Blessings!

If it is true that a person and Christ have never been two but are in fact one then why is it that not all people are perfect as Christ?

[ROMANWKT]

HI Krullenjongen

It does not matter what degrees Lee Strobel has, most of the time it means that they are deeper in the rabbit hole than most of us, secondly, you are dealing with a Jewish theology, which quite plainly says that we are waiting for a messiah named EMMANUEL, so who is Jesus??? the west had to have their own hero,as Jesus, isn't also funny that the only historical evidence of a man called Jesus was mentioned 300 years after his death. It has also been noticed that he is mentioned it the Quran from Islam which is 1'400 + years old , as he, Jesus is mention by Mohamed, and that is still 600 years after Jesus death. what Jesus taught to the people, nobody has any arguments about that, the work is good and of spiritual value, the only argument is that there is no proof that such a person named Jesus existed.
kindest regards
roman

Well it is clear that you haven't watched the video otherwise you would not have made such silly remarks.
There is a lot of writing about Jesus before 300 AD, in fact some of the apostles writings are dated before 300 AD so please look at the evidence first before you comment.

And about the name emmanual (which means God with us) it is a TITLE and NOT a name. He is also called Sons of God, Son of men, the second Adam (but we were not waiting for a guy named Adam), light of the world and the king of the Jews...........so????

Initially when I made this reply I did state that I did not watch this video, the post blacked out and I had to rewrite it again, and forgot to put it in, this argument has been going on for more that a hundred years as far as I know, if Jesus really did exist, I had done my home work many,many years ago, and on every attempt to prove the point that a Jesus existed is slowly coming closer that 300 years after his death, If this Jesus was that important to all, then there would not be any discrepancy in a continual date, and there is even discrepancy with the gospels, as they were not written by who you think, but by the Greeks, the 12 apostles are the 12 star signs of the zodiac, and the son of god Jesus is the SUN god. this is the reason they are very hard at work trying find false data for historical connection. its that important to keep this as a bona fide info for their ( controlers) theology, a myth. Good Luck.

My regards to you
roman

[Krullenjongen]

“Christianity is a great idea…when are they going to start

putting it into practice?”- Jacque Fresco

Distraction, distraction, distraction.

No-one outside is needed. The ingredient is us plus awareness directed within us - instead of outside (at external distractions)

When is this delusional power game going to end. Talk about viruses.

Its all about us going within and finding out who we are so we can behave harmonically like the metaphors of all spiritual teachers alert us to. Everything else is

just egotistical nit picking.

People who think they are "enlightened" and say that the truth is in them and they know right from wrong why do they too make the wrong choices and hurt others?
Again the fact that peope don't practice what they preach does not say anything about the truth of their faith it only says something about how they practice it.

And i guess that Jacque Fresco has never paid any attention to all the good things christians have done.
I guess it was easier for him to not take off his bias glasses.

[Krullenjongen]

9eagle9-- Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is a lack of belief. Atheists do not believe in Atheism, because there is nothing to believe in. Atheists have no belief in the existence of the divine or the supernatural, preferring instead to trust in the innate goodness and sense that is present in us all.

If you cannot prove that God exists (and you can't) than Atheism is a belief.
Because you cannot prove that God does not exist and thus you believe that he doesn't.

[9eagle9]

If we have experience instead of belief , then belief becomes unneccessary.

We can then trust in what is known through experience.

A belief is just a thought. Nothing more. An experience is direct knowledge .



it begins as a belief

and if it's true

then faith and patience will reveal it

to the believer


but the unbeliever will still call it a belief ; )

[ROMANWKT]

“Christianity is a great idea…when are they going to start

putting it into practice?”- Jacque Fresco

Distraction, distraction, distraction.

No-one outside is needed. The ingredient is us plus awareness directed within us - instead of outside (at external distractions)

When is this delusional power game going to end. Talk about viruses.

Its all about us going within and finding out who we are so we can behave harmonically like the metaphors of all spiritual teachers alert us to. Everything else is

just egotistical nit picking.

People who think they are "enlightened" and say that the truth is in them and they know right from wrong why do they too make the wrong choices and hurt others?
Again the fact that peope don't practice what they preach does not say anything about the truth of their faith it only says something about how they practice it.

And i guess that Jacque Fresco has never paid any attention to all the good things christians have done.
I guess it was easier for him to not take off his bias glasses.

You don't have to have a label to do good work, I myself practise nothing ,I am to busy getting rid of crap that has been put inside me, you judge people by their religion, I sincerely hope you find peace with what you believe in
my regards to you
roman

[9eagle9]

You're right Atheism is a BELIEF that God doesn't exist. No one has the experience of GOD not existing , how could they if they didn't even know through experience what God is. Atheist may have several expereinces with God but believes otherwise. How could they know without knowledge or experience of what God is.

Beliefs will never serve the way expeirience does. None of them will. But that's what people think 'awakening' is. It's opening to experience, not accumulating vast libraries of belief systems.



9eagle9-- Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is a lack of belief. Atheists do not believe in Atheism, because there is nothing to believe in. Atheists have no belief in the existence of the divine or the supernatural, preferring instead to trust in the innate goodness and sense that is present in us all.

If you cannot prove that God exists (and you can't) than Atheism is a belief.
Because you cannot prove that God does not exist and thus you believe that he doesn't.

[Krullenjongen]

You know what would be great?
If you would learn to multipost.

Yes that would be great, can you point the way where someone explains this?

But i did it this way otherwise my post would have taken up almost a page and i thought i would be better readable this way.

[Krullenjongen]

HI Krullenjongen

It does not matter what degrees Lee Strobel has, most of the time it means that they are deeper in the rabbit hole than most of us, secondly, you are dealing with a Jewish theology, which quite plainly says that we are waiting for a messiah named EMMANUEL, so who is Jesus??? the west had to have their own hero,as Jesus, isn't also funny that the only historical evidence of a man called Jesus was mentioned 300 years after his death. It has also been noticed that he is mentioned it the Quran from Islam which is 1'400 + years old , as he, Jesus is mention by Mohamed, and that is still 600 years after Jesus death. what Jesus taught to the people, nobody has any arguments about that, the work is good and of spiritual value, the only argument is that there is no proof that such a person named Jesus existed.
kindest regards
roman

Well it is clear that you haven't watched the video otherwise you would not have made such silly remarks.
There is a lot of writing about Jesus before 300 AD, in fact some of the apostles writings are dated before 300 AD so please look at the evidence first before you comment.

And about the name emmanual (which means God with us) it is a TITLE and NOT a name. He is also called Sons of God, Son of men, the second Adam (but we were not waiting for a guy named Adam), light of the world and the king of the Jews...........so????

Initially when I made this reply I did state that I did not watch this video, the post blacked out and I had to rewrite it again, and forgot to put it in, this argument has been going on for more that a hundred years as far as I know, if Jesus really did exist, I had done my home work many,many years ago, and on every attempt to prove the point that a Jesus existed is slowly coming closer that 300 years after his death, If this Jesus was that important to all, then there would not be any discrepancy in a continual date, and there is even discrepancy with the gospels, as they were not written by who you think, but by the Greeks, the 12 apostles are the 12 star signs of the zodiac, and the son of god Jesus is the SUN god. this is the reason they are very hard at work trying find false data for historical connection. its that important to keep this as a bona fide info for their ( controlers) theology, a myth. Good Luck.

My regards to you
roman

I see you have been heavily influenced by Zeitgeist, you should also watch Zeitgeist refuted to balance that!

There are lots of writings before 300 AD that talk about Jesus, almost the whole new testament can be pieced together by quotes from letters from the early church fathers that have all been written before 300AD and still remain to this day.
There are also pieces of original scripture that have been dated before 300AD and those are still here too.
Besides that there are also many extra biblical sources for this like Josephus Flavius a historian at that time.

But anyone has the right to dismiss evidence as they see fit for their world view.

Good luck and blessings to you too.

[Seikou-Kishi]

To my mind, Jesus has been betrayed by every church which has ever professed his name. The personal Christianity, so far as I have witnessed, is unassuming, reserved and contemplative, but Christianity the brand is bombastic, boisterous and dictatorial. True Christians have as much reason to resent the impositions of His Holiness and all other hierarchs. To quote John 14:6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" though those hierarchs would have you believe it were "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me and blind obedience to my bishops.'"

I agee that there is much wrong with "the church" but does that mean that Christ isn't real?
There is much wrong with capitalism also but does it mean that the whole system is wrong?
The thing people make of their religion or do in name of their religion does not mean that is what this religion stands for.

If I didn't think Jesus were real, I couldn't believe he had been betrayed ;-)

[ROMANWKT]

HI Krullenjongen

It does not matter what degrees Lee Strobel has, most of the time it means that they are deeper in the rabbit hole than most of us, secondly, you are dealing with a Jewish theology, which quite plainly says that we are waiting for a messiah named EMMANUEL, so who is Jesus??? the west had to have their own hero,as Jesus, isn't also funny that the only historical evidence of a man called Jesus was mentioned 300 years after his death. It has also been noticed that he is mentioned it the Quran from Islam which is 1'400 + years old , as he, Jesus is mention by Mohamed, and that is still 600 years after Jesus death. what Jesus taught to the people, nobody has any arguments about that, the work is good and of spiritual value, the only argument is that there is no proof that such a person named Jesus existed.
kindest regards
roman

Well it is clear that you haven't watched the video otherwise you would not have made such silly remarks.
There is a lot of writing about Jesus before 300 AD, in fact some of the apostles writings are dated before 300 AD so please look at the evidence first before you comment.

And about the name emmanual (which means God with us) it is a TITLE and NOT a name. He is also called Sons of God, Son of men, the second Adam (but we were not waiting for a guy named Adam), light of the world and the king of the Jews...........so????

Initially when I made this reply I did state that I did not watch this video, the post blacked out and I had to rewrite it again, and forgot to put it in, this argument has been going on for more that a hundred years as far as I know, if Jesus really did exist, I had done my home work many,many years ago, and on every attempt to prove the point that a Jesus existed is slowly coming closer that 300 years after his death, If this Jesus was that important to all, then there would not be any discrepancy in a continual date, and there is even discrepancy with the gospels, as they were not written by who you think, but by the Greeks, the 12 apostles are the 12 star signs of the zodiac, and the son of god Jesus is the SUN god. this is the reason they are very hard at work trying find false data for historical connection. its that important to keep this as a bona fide info for their ( controlers) theology, a myth. Good Luck.

My regards to you
roman

I see you have been heavily influenced by Zeitgeist, you should also watch Zeitgeist refuted to balance that!

There are lots of writings before 300 AD that talk about Jesus, almost the whole new testament can be pieced together by quotes from letters from the early church fathers that have all been written before 300AD and still remain to this day.
There are also pieces of original scripture that have been dated before 300AD and those are still here too.
Besides that there are also many extra biblical sources for this like Josephus Flavius a historian at that time.

But anyone has the right to dismiss evidence as they see fit for their world view.

Good luck and blessings to you too.

This knowleadge is before zeitgist, I would like to know what you think of this. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15834-Its-all-nonsense-part-1

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?32896-MANIFESTING-IN-THE-MATRIX-its-all-nonsense-part-2
Kindest regards
roman.

[13th Warrior]

It seems to me that these religious debates are an effort to convince oneself of the viability of ones chosen religion and these arguments to convince others is a veiled effort to convince oneself.

[Lord Sidious]

It seems to me that these religious debates are an effort to convince oneself of the viability of ones chosen religion and these arguments to convince others is a veiled effort to convince oneself.

Very astute observation there nugget.

[13th Warrior]

It seems to me that these religious debates are an effort to convince oneself of the viability of ones chosen religion and these arguments to convince others is a veiled effort to convince oneself.

Very astute observation there nugget.

I just like to observe; i don't profess to know...

[another bob]

If we never can get unstraight with God then why did God have to sent Jesus?

Greetings, Friend!

Source does not send people anywhere, nor is Source obligated to manipulate events. People dependently originate based on the ripening of causes and conditions, and Source in turn enjoys each human experience from the vantage point of the indwelling principle (ie "soul").



If it is true that a person and Christ have never been two but are in fact one then why is it that not all people are perfect as Christ?

All persons (human formations) are dream-like virtual reality creations (projections of mind), one no less perfect (or empty) than the other. From the divine vantage point, Jesus and Hitler are equally loveable mind forms. It is only the unawakened mind's tendency to pick and choose (creating artificial hierarchies) based on ignorance, fear and desire that complicate things in the dream. From the perfect comes the perfect. Take the perfect away, and only the perfect remains.

Blessings!

[Amysenthia]

Hi Krullenjongen

I felt the need to answer several replies to statements that I made. First thank you for your suggestion of using notepad to answer so that the info doesn’t get lost. I am doing that this time because this will be a long post. The reference you made about my talking about my past life regression. This was not the SOURCE of my opinions. I merely added that to explain my personal views of master Jeshyua the man, that the bible was based on.

The source of my opinions comes from over 35 years of studying every major religion and some non-major, through reading and practice. Perhaps it would add more credence if I started with a video. If I were to choose one it would be Bill Mahers, Religulous movie. Part of all major religions are that they give just enough truth to get you to believe, but not enough to realize that you do not need the “middle man” of the church, priest, rabbi, reverend, to experience “christ consciousnous”, (the vibrational state not a religion). If you are praying to the true Jesus for the truth you will get it as I did once. You will start to question in yourself how the church controls people from birth to death. You will start to see the hypocrisy with which so called christians say they follow the beliefs of the bible but seem to forget the most important parts. Such “Do unto others as you would have done unto you”, as was previously stated. I recommend that you start as I did by studying the origins of the bible. Look at the material about the meeting of the council Nicaea in 325AD. At the meeting they decided that the bible must be changed, (just one of many, 13 at last count), to include the Jesus was the only son of God. The NWO powers of that time that started the corporation church did not want people to confuse the Jesus of their book with the Buddist, (Buddha), or Hindu (Krishna) which far predated their religion, and were also said to be descended into human bodies from divine sources. You are taught to fear that you must be baptized at birth and have a “proper” ceremony at death to be accepted into a life of God or go to God after death. Do YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS???? God, or “THE SOURCE”, does not care about such things. We are looked upon as you would look a children playing in some ridiculous way. You would not hold something a child did against them for an eternity because they did not know better. This is how we are viewed by the GODSOURCE. We have been sent spiritual teachers throughout the ages to try to teach us better ways. Confucius, Taos, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, to name a few. About every 1500 years of so. We are just about due for another incarnation of the Christos, which yes in GODSOURCE incarnate. You do not have to be any certain religion to experience this blessed state. However, you do have to live in a way that causes you to have a higher vibrational field. Live in LOVE and service to others every day.

Studying eastern religions gave me a much greater understanding of the christian bible about the true Jesus. This is where you will gain understanding of the Christ Consiousness state. Also, did you know that there is great evidence that during the missing years of the christ in the bible that the true Jesus was off studying the healing arts in India and Persia.

Best of luck to you in your path. I hope that when you pray for the TRUTH you stay open minded to what you receive and have not already conformed your life so much dogma thinking that there is no room for other truths.

Oh and by the way I was answering MU2143 not Davidallany when I stated lets not start Dogma. Sorry Davidallany for any confusion.

[RedeZra]

Satan is a son of God (ben elohiym) and a spirit in Judaism and Adam is a son of God and a man

I have to disagree with you here RedeZra.
Satan is not a son of God, he was an angel and after his rebellion he was a fallen angel.
To my knowledge nowhere in the bible is it said that satan was a son of God or are angels classified as sons of God.
If you know of any biblical texts that say otherwise please let me know.


in the Book of Job chapter 1 there is a scene where the sons of God (ben elohiym) came to present themselves before Yehovah and Satan was one of them

spirits don't procreate so God is the source of their existence and they came into being because of God

human beings are called sons and daughters of Man because human beings procreate

Adam the first man came into being because of God and he is therfore called a son of God


but spirits or sons of God did procreate with the daughters of men back then which gave birth to a hybrid race of Nephilims the heroes of old

[passiglight]

Christ consciousness is a group being, as is our consciousness,,,,,,,,

he/she they,,,,,,,,is easily 25 thousand years on this planet,,,,,

and imo has nothing whatsoever to do with the bible which is just pure Illuminati fantasy and outright lies,,,,,,,,,

cosmic love energy

[RedeZra]

Source does not send people anywhere, nor is Source obligated to manipulate events. People dependently originate based on the ripening of causes and conditions, and Source in turn enjoys each human experience from the vantage point of the indwelling principle (ie "soul").


All persons (human formations) are dream-like virtual reality creations (projections of mind), one no less perfect (or empty) than the other. From the divine vantage point, Jesus and Hitler are equally loveable mind forms. It is only the unawakened mind's tendency to pick and choose (creating artificial hierarchies) based on ignorance, fear and desire that complicate things in the dream. From the perfect comes the perfect. Take the perfect away, and only the perfect remains.



when Buddha achieved enlightenment he could see all his previous incarnations

so there is a soul up to the point of enlightenment

he saw he had overcome countless of ages because he had been on the right path not deviating too much from it

so if there is a right path then there must be a wrong path

it's even imperative in Buddhism to be on the right path


what happens to souls who pursue the wrong path and refuse to change or receive help and healing from God

will such souls still exist into the new age ?


Jesus came for this reason that no soul should perish

and all it takes for the most vile sinner of sinners is to accept Jesus Christ

and that soul will be healed and make it to the next level

[Lord Sidious]

Source does not send people anywhere, nor is Source obligated to manipulate events. People dependently originate based on the ripening of causes and conditions, and Source in turn enjoys each human experience from the vantage point of the indwelling principle (ie "soul").


All persons (human formations) are dream-like virtual reality creations (projections of mind), one no less perfect (or empty) than the other. From the divine vantage point, Jesus and Hitler are equally loveable mind forms. It is only the unawakened mind's tendency to pick and choose (creating artificial hierarchies) based on ignorance, fear and desire that complicate things in the dream. From the perfect comes the perfect. Take the perfect away, and only the perfect remains.



when Buddha achieved enlightenment he could see all his previous incarnations

so there is a soul up to the point of enlightenment

he saw he had overcome countless of ages because he had been on the right path not deviating too much from it

so if there is a right path then there must be a wrong path

it's even imperative in Buddhism to be on the right path


what happens to souls who pursue the wrong path and refuse to change or receive help and healing from God

will such souls still exist into the new age ?


Jesus came for this reason that no soul should perish

and all it takes for the most vile sinner of sinners is to accept Jesus Christ

and that soul will be healed and make it to the next level

If you read what you put in this post, it all makes sense, until you get to the last paragraph, that defeats the other paragraphs.

[RedeZra]

If you read what you put in this post, it all makes sense, until you get to the last paragraph, that defeats the other paragraphs.

it makes perfect sense to me

also the the last paragraph

and it is the punch line ; )

[Lord Sidious]

If you read what you put in this post, it all makes sense, until you get to the last paragraph, that defeats the other paragraphs.

it makes perfect sense to me

also the the last paragraph

and it is the punch line ; )

So what is the point of being on the right path for your whole existence, if all you have to do is accept jesus at some point in the future?
That sounds like silver bullet logic to me.

[RedeZra]

So what is the point of being on the right path for your whole existence, if all you have to do is accept jesus at some point in the future?
That sounds like silver bullet logic to me.

being on the right path is a source of joy in itself

being on the wrong path is a source of worry


but don't worry God has fixed it

just accept it

[Tarka the Duck]

@ Redezra:


when Buddha achieved enlightenment he could see all his previous incarnations

so there is a soul up to the point of enlightenment

he saw he had overcome countless of ages because he had been on the right path not deviating too much from it

so if there is a right path then there must be a wrong path

it's even imperative in Buddhism to be on the right path



Interestingly, Milarepa, who was of the most respected and revered yogis of ancient Tibet, and the main teacher of the founder of one of the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism, was, in his youth, a sorcerer. He killed many people in violent acts of revenge before renouncing 'black' magic.

Would you consider that he had been on the "wrong" path?
Or was he on the "right" path for his own particular journey?

How do you define " right" and "wrong" paths? Particularly if one doesn't have a theistic viewpoint.

[Tony]

Obstacles to enlightenment...there aren't any!

So what are these so-called obstacles to enlightenment?

Our Essence, our pure being, prisms into three aspects:
Emptiness, Consciousness and Compassion.

Can we be anything else?

So how do obstacles occur?

Well, the three pure aspects of being Emptiness, Consciousness and Compassion became distorted, into three poisons – Ignorance, Desire and Aversion.

This is how it works:
If our empty essence does not recognise itself, this is ignorance.
If our consciousness gets attracted, this is desire.
If our compassion does not like what it sees, this is aversion.

The poisons do not actually exist!

From this distortion came the whole of our creation, which is maintained from moment to moment.
This is not at all bad news, as we can use these disturbing emotions to find our way back to essence.

We can give Essence any name you wish, but Essence is beyond words or description. It is because we now know or get an inkling of essence, that we can now deal, with the emotions in the correct way.

This is how Relative truth and Absolute truth work as a unity, each reflects the other.
Remember Relative truth is seeming reality, and Absolute truth is actual reality.

[another bob]

when Buddha achieved enlightenment he could see all his previous incarnations

so there is a soul up to the point of enlightenment


Greetings, Friend!

You won't find many Buddhists who hold to your theory. In point of fact, for Buddhists, the doctrine of anatta (no-self or soul) is one of the 3 intrinsic characteristics of all phenomena.

Encyclopedia Brittanica: anatta, ( Pali: “non-self” or “substanceless”) Sanskrit anatman , in Buddhism, the doctrine that there is in humans no permanent, underlying substance that can be called the soul. Instead, the individual is compounded of five factors (Pali khandha; Sanskrit skandha) that are constantly changing. The concept of anatta, or anatman, is a departure from the Hindu belief in atman (“the self”). The absence of a self, anicca (the impermanence of all being), and dukkha (“suffering”) are the three characteristics of all existence (ti-lakkhana).



what happens to souls who pursue the wrong path and refuse to change or receive help and healing from God

will such souls still exist into the new age ?


This is like asking about the fate of the characters who appear in dreams at night. Where do they go when we wake up?

Blessings!

[laughs-last]

@ Redezra:


when Buddha achieved enlightenment he could see all his previous incarnations

so there is a soul up to the point of enlightenment

he saw he had overcome countless of ages because he had been on the right path not deviating too much from it

so if there is a right path then there must be a wrong path

it's even imperative in Buddhism to be on the right path



Interestingly, Milarepa, who was of the most respected and revered yogis of ancient Tibet, and the main teacher of the founder of one of the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism, was, in his youth, a sorcerer. He killed many people in violent acts of revenge before renouncing 'black' magic.

Would you consider that he had been on the "wrong" path?
Or was he on the "right" path for his own particular journey?

How do you define " right" and "wrong" paths? Particularly if you don't have a theistic viewpoint.

good point Tarka, some of us wander paths others don't, until we come back to ourselves. Jesus was a dude, as was all them other spiritual figures; let's not stop there we are all cool, just some of us choose to ignore this fact. :)

ONE LOVE, BIG HUGZ and TOUCHING INFINITY :jester:

[Sebastion]

Blessed Pie

You might wish to start a separate thread on how one distinguishes the difference between that which you call "essence" and consciousness as I am sure that I am not the only one who would like to know.

[RedeZra]

Interestingly, Milarepa, who was of the most respected and revered yogis of ancient Tibet, and the main teacher of the founder of one of the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism, was, in his youth, a sorcerer. He killed many people in violent acts of revenge before renouncing 'black' magic.

Would you consider that he had been on the "wrong" path?
Or was he on the "right" path for his own particular journey?

How do you define " right" and "wrong" paths? Particularly if one doesn't have a theistic viewpoint.

Milarepa made a choice at a crossroad

he renounced a path and embraced another


Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path which is all about right this and that

so i don't define right and wrong


i leave that to God and the masters of the art of righteousness

[RedeZra]

when Buddha achieved enlightenment he could see all his previous incarnations

so there is a soul up to the point of enlightenment


You won't find many Buddhists who hold to your theory. In point of fact, for Buddhists, the doctrine of anatta (no-self or soul) is one of the 3 intrinsic characteristics of all phenomena.


i have no problem with Advaita becuse God is One and there is no other

but until we realize this by direct experience

we have to play the game and follow the rules


Buddha could perceive all his previous incarnations when he achieved enlightenment

so bro he had a soul up until that point

where only God Is and there is nobody else

[another bob]

i have no problem with Advaita becuse God is One and there is no other


Greetings, Friend!

If you appreciate Advaita, then you would recognize that God is because you are.

Of course, there are other schools that do hold to some idea of there being "no other", but then there are also some who indicate that the literal creator of this universe, typically known as God, is actually one of a number of such beings, and that there are even greater beings further on up the scale. Buddhists would generally subscribe to that cosmology, for example. They are not so big into the one God-idea, but a lot of this just boils down to terminology, so best to skip the comparative religion head-trip and instead find out who and what we really are directly.



....we have to play the game and follow the rules

If Buddha had played the game and followed the rules, he would not be remembered today as an awakened one.



Buddha could perceive all his previous incarnations when he achieved enlightenment

so bro he had a soul up until that point

Not according to him.

;)


Blessings!

[58andfixed]

Thank you, and I concur.

However, understanding the depth & breadth of the blow-back caused from centuries of coercion is a very necessary stage of the change that is underway.

Using the tools of Organized Religion from the past, as the basis for change for a new future is like expecting an athlete to run a sprint while shackled to a ball and chain.

I think it is well worth looking much closer at the current tools and acknowledging flaws, and work with them instead of denying them.

I trust in truth, and my experience.

In authority that commands obedience, my hackles stand up. It began at a very early age, and I expect it won't change soon.

The process of time, learning & discovering much, value can be gained from close examination of everything, for truth can withstand close scrutiny.

- 58



but this is a spiritual struggle

and we are souls

the problem of this planet is the spiteful spirits and the people who serve them

such spirits are on a long time line but time is up and this is the end of the line

this is the end of an age


we need to get straight with God yesterday

[58andfixed]

Ole Anthony on CNN Exposing False Teachers


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzQyXe8BKMQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzQyXe8BKMQ

4m 47s 4,734 views

Posted January 3, 2010

****

Ole Anthony's foundation:

http://www.trinityfi.org/contact.html

Trinity Foundation Inc. offices
5622 Columbia Ave., Dallas Texas, 75214.

"An early skepticism about the way religious programming was bought and sold prompted Trinity to conduct a controversial research project on the audience demographics and ratings of religious broadcasting."

"This preceded the scandals that rocked the religious television industry in the 1980s."

"In 1987 after supplying testimony to congressional hearings about the religious TV industry, the foundation began full-time monitoring of religious programming and reporting abuses of the public trust."

***

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_involving_evangelical_Christians

List of scandals involving evangelical Christians

****

The mechanism of Organized Religion is too easily subverted because our thinking lacks the critical thinking required.

The school system prepares us this way.

Politics takes advantage of it.

So does MSM. The Military Industrial Complex, the Medical Industrial Comples, Corporatism, ....

"They" are not "The Problem." Our thinking is "The Problem."

We need to look in the mirror for the solution.

- 58

[RedeZra]

They are not so big into the one God-idea, but a lot of this just boils down to terminology, so best to skip the comparative religion head-trip and instead find out who and what we really are directly.


hi Bob

sure we need direct experience to figure out who we really are

and we do not have to compare religions


but when you bring up the teachings of Buddha to a topic of Christ

then you make an invite for a comparison between them


so how to explain the Buddha perceiving all his previous lives ?

surly the practical reality of a soul would solve and settle that question

[RedeZra]

Using the tools of Organized Religion from the past, as the basis for change for a new future is like expecting an athlete to run a sprint while shackled to a ball and chain.



the transition to a new era has never been smooth

and if God does not step in and save the day

then many and much will fall away


we will not recognize the future and the future will wonder about the past


an end of an age does not come with peace and security but with war worry and cataclysms

it happened before and if God does not step in then it will happen again


question is if God has any reason to stop the cyclical purification of the earth

[58andfixed]

What if God has never intervened, other than to start life ?

What if God expects us to exercise Free Will Choice to fix our own problems ?

What if people have been misled to expect things to be 'fixed for us,' before we can be functional ?

Did Jesus "fix" anything when He was here 2,000 years ago ?

It seems to me that there is plenty of evidence of no intervention, and that the Planet has always been in our own hands, to fix or destroy as we permit.

Even for the promise of return, was there any suggestion that Jesus would also come to "fix" things ?

If these are your assumptions, perhaps you could reference it with a citation that is selected in manner appropriate to contextual material.

I would like to know why is it that call themselves Christians have an expectation that the solution is outside of themselves.

Maybe you might be able to help me out with this understanding.

- 58





Using the tools of Organized Religion from the past, as the basis for change for a new future is like expecting an athlete to run a sprint while shackled to a ball and chain.



and if God does not step in and save the day

then many and much will fall away

it happened before and if God does not step in then it will happen again

question is if God has any reason to stop the cyclical purification of the earth

[ROMANWKT]

As far as I am concerned, you are spot on 58andfixed
, this is where most of us are mislead that things are out of our hand, they are not, we all have to be responsible, and that the biggest thing that stands out, when will we realise that all responsibility rest always with us, there is nothing outside of ourself, we are responsible,, nobody is going to save us, because there is only us, you all remember the saying, the one you seek is you, its us, all responsibility lies with us.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15834-Its-all-nonsense-part-1

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?32896-MANIFESTING-IN-THE-MATRIX-its-all-nonsense-part-2

Regards to all
roman

[another bob]

so how to explain the Buddha perceiving all his previous lives ?

surly the practical reality of a soul would solve and settle that question

Greetings, Friend!

Various Buddhists proffer various explanations, though some sort of enduring, unchanging entity is not one of them.

Here's an ever-popular little read on that topic:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits048.htm

Blessings!

[RedeZra]

What if God expects us to exercise Free Will Choice to fix our own problems ?

Did Jesus "fix" anything when He was here 2,000 years ago ?

Even for the promise of return, was there any suggestion that Jesus would also come to "fix" things ?


I would like to know why is it that call themselves Christians have an expectation that the solution is outside of themselves.



we are free to choose and pursue our paths

from the day we are born til the day we die

who knows what happens after that


the life of Jesus is an example of a particular path

which we are free to follow or not


it's impossible to understand Jesus and His mission if one doesn't believe in God heaven and hell sins souls and spirits

therefor what Jesus accomplished on the Cross sounds like fiction to many

but it is very simple and there is no need to complicate it


the Creative Heart of God Jesus Christ was crushed and pierced at Calvary

as a Perfect Sacrifice for all the wrong in the world

because the wages of wrong or sin is death and life and soul is in the blood


so God has bought His souls back from Satan and the world by the Passion of Christ or His Creative Heart

we just have to accept His Sacrifice in which we are redeemed and relate to Him through Jesus Christ


at the end of the age the true followers of Jesus Christ and a remnant of the righteous will be lifted up above the cataclysmic changes that are coming to the earth


and a new beginning under the reign of Christ will follow in the world


it sounds like science fiction i know but according to the words of Jesus Christ this is what is coming soon

[passiglight]

as i have it,,,,,,,,,,,,

Buddha was the first human being from earth to "ascend",,,,,,,,,

And i think you'll find that was quite a few eons ago

we are energy,,,,,,,,

that i am,,,,,,,,,

[another bob]

as i have it,,,,,,,,,,,,

Buddha was the first human being from earth to "ascend",,,,,,,,,


Greetings, Friend!

Again, not according to Buddha, who spoke of previous Buddhas in earlier epochs.

Blessings!

[58andfixed]

Hindu Timeline

http://ompage.net/Text/hindutimeline.htm

****

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah

"Elijah was a prophet in the Kingdom of Samaria[3] during the reign of Ahab (9th century BCE), according to the Books of Kings."

" .. ascended into heaven in a whirlwind ."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Kings+2&version=NKJV

2 Kings 2

"And it came to pass, when the LORD was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal."

****

Genesis 5:24 KJV

"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

****

There are hints that mortals can avoid what most experience as death. Who was first is splitting hairs.

Being open to ideas that are different than most humans follow, are exploratory paths that are likely to discover what is necessary to avoid what the herd endures.

- 58

[truthseekerdan]

we are free to choose and pursue our paths

from the day we are born til the day we die

who knows what happens after that


the life of Jesus is an example of a particular path

which we are free to follow or not


it's impossible to understand Jesus and His mission if one doesn't believe in God heaven and hell sins souls and spirits...



A great video presentation for those with "ears to hear"... :)

gIzZuuRpd6k

[Krullenjongen]

It seems to me that these religious debates are an effort to convince oneself of the viability of ones chosen religion and these arguments to convince others is a veiled effort to convince oneself.

Very astute observation there nugget.

I just like to observe; i don't profess to know...

I'm sorry to say that both your observations are wrong.
I don't need to convince myself i have done that by research and experience a long time ago.

This argument is in my opinion a bit silly because it can be said of everyone who defends a religious belief or even a opinion. It doesn't add anything to the discussion it just ends the discussion.
I don't like these kinds of discussion "tricks"
It's like me saying to this remark above "that's just your projection"
With that i would accomplish the same as described above.


Instead could it be that i think i have found something really good and wonderful in my life that i would like to share that with the members here???

[Krullenjongen]

If we never can get unstraight with God then why did God have to sent Jesus?

Greetings, Friend!

Source does not send people anywhere, nor is Source obligated to manipulate events. People dependently originate based on the ripening of causes and conditions, and Source in turn enjoys each human experience from the vantage point of the indwelling principle (ie "soul").



If it is true that a person and Christ have never been two but are in fact one then why is it that not all people are perfect as Christ?

All persons (human formations) are dream-like virtual reality creations (projections of mind), one no less perfect (or empty) than the other. From the divine vantage point, Jesus and Hitler are equally loveable mind forms. It is only the unawakened mind's tendency to pick and choose (creating artificial hierarchies) based on ignorance, fear and desire that complicate things in the dream. From the perfect comes the perfect. Take the perfect away, and only the perfect remains.

Blessings!

It never ceases to amaze me that someone can put forth these new age theosophical views without any substantial evidence and be so skeptical of another faith that at least has some scientific validity.

[Krullenjongen]

You are taught to fear that you must be baptized at birth and have a “proper” ceremony at death to be accepted into a life of God or go to God after death. Do YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS???? .

No i don't!
This is what the catholic church has made of it, it has no basis in the bible.
All people are saved by faith and the grace of God and no ritual can replace that.

"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Efez 2:8)
And
"...everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (acts 2:21, Rom 10:13)

Blessings to you too and may you also stay open minded.

[Krullenjongen]

Satan is a son of God (ben elohiym) and a spirit in Judaism and Adam is a son of God and a man

I have to disagree with you here RedeZra.
Satan is not a son of God, he was an angel and after his rebellion he was a fallen angel.
To my knowledge nowhere in the bible is it said that satan was a son of God or are angels classified as sons of God.
If you know of any biblical texts that say otherwise please let me know.


in the Book of Job chapter 1 there is a scene where the sons of God (ben elohiym) came to present themselves before Yehovah and Satan was one of them

spirits don't procreate so God is the source of their existence and they came into being because of God

human beings are called sons and daughters of Man because human beings procreate

Adam the first man came into being because of God and he is therfore called a son of God


but spirits or sons of God did procreate with the daughters of men back then which gave birth to a hybrid race of Nephilims the heroes of old

I stand corrected, thanks!
Angels are called sons of God in Job 2 times but i do no see this include satan?
The text says "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them"
So it was the sons of God that came to God AND satan.
So in this verse the sons of God do not include satan.

But this is a bit beside the current discussion, if you want to discuss this PM me oke.
Blessings to you

[Krullenjongen]

Obstacles to enlightenment...there aren't any!

So what are these so-called obstacles to enlightenment?

Our Essence, our pure being, prisms into three aspects:
Emptiness, Consciousness and Compassion.

Can we be anything else?

So how do obstacles occur?

Well, the three pure aspects of being Emptiness, Consciousness and Compassion became distorted, into three poisons – Ignorance, Desire and Aversion.

This is how it works:
If our empty essence does not recognise itself, this is ignorance.
If our consciousness gets attracted, this is desire.
If our compassion does not like what it sees, this is aversion.

The poisons do not actually exist!

From this distortion came the whole of our creation, which is maintained from moment to moment.
This is not at all bad news, as we can use these disturbing emotions to find our way back to essence.

We can give Essence any name you wish, but Essence is beyond words or description. It is because we now know or get an inkling of essence, that we can now deal, with the emotions in the correct way.

This is how Relative truth and Absolute truth work as a unity, each reflects the other.
Remember Relative truth is seeming reality, and Absolute truth is actual reality.

According to david Icke and the new age and theosophical teachings the obstacle to global enlichtenment are the people who do not want or cannot change with or adapt to the new "vibrations".
They hold back humanity from global enlichtenment and will need to be taken care of (if you know what i mean)
This in my opinion is a great threat.
But this seems to go into another direction as this thread is intended.
I am happy to discuss this in some other thread.

[Krullenjongen]

If you read what you put in this post, it all makes sense, until you get to the last paragraph, that defeats the other paragraphs.

it makes perfect sense to me

also the the last paragraph

and it is the punch line ; )

So what is the point of being on the right path for your whole existence, if all you have to do is accept jesus at some point in the future?
That sounds like silver bullet logic to me.

The right path will bring joy and goodness and Gods blessings in your life and i would rather have that sooner than later.
And the fact that you can turn to God at any point in your life doesn't make it foolish it just shows us how great the grace of God is.

[Fred Steeves]

The text says "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them"




Hi there, just bopping in as a friendly reminder not to forget the "s" behind god.:)

Cheers,
fred

[Lord Sidious]

If you read what you put in this post, it all makes sense, until you get to the last paragraph, that defeats the other paragraphs.

it makes perfect sense to me

also the the last paragraph

and it is the punch line ; )

So what is the point of being on the right path for your whole existence, if all you have to do is accept jesus at some point in the future?
That sounds like silver bullet logic to me.

The right path will bring joy and goodness and Gods blessings in your life and i would rather have that sooner than later.
And the fact that you can turn to God at any point in your life doesn't make it foolish it just shows us how great the grace of God is.

It still sounds contrary to the whole point of being here.

[another bob]

If we never can get unstraight with God then why did God have to sent Jesus?

Greetings, Friend!

Source does not send people anywhere, nor is Source obligated to manipulate events. People dependently originate based on the ripening of causes and conditions, and Source in turn enjoys each human experience from the vantage point of the indwelling principle (ie "soul").



If it is true that a person and Christ have never been two but are in fact one then why is it that not all people are perfect as Christ?

All persons (human formations) are dream-like virtual reality creations (projections of mind), one no less perfect (or empty) than the other. From the divine vantage point, Jesus and Hitler are equally loveable mind forms. It is only the unawakened mind's tendency to pick and choose (creating artificial hierarchies) based on ignorance, fear and desire that complicate things in the dream. From the perfect comes the perfect. Take the perfect away, and only the perfect remains.

Blessings!

It never ceases to amaze me that someone can put forth these new age theosophical views without any substantial evidence and be so skeptical of another faith that at least has some scientific validity.

Greetings, Friend!

Direct personal experience, thoroughly supported by the Vedas as well as the Sutras, and confirmed by realizers down through the ages, carries a lot more weight in my book than the corrupted mishmash of social control mechanisms based on fear and guilt assembled at the Council of Nicea by politicians with temporal agendas, and now being passed off here as a religion with "scientific validity". In fact, Christianity has stood the test of time only as the most oppressive system that humans have yet fabricated to abuse and dominate each other, and all in the name of God.

Blessings!

[RedeZra]

Satan is a son of God (ben elohiym) and a spirit in Judaism and Adam is a son of God and a man

Angels are called sons of God in Job 2 times but i do no see this include satan?



Satan is an angel ; )


Blessings too

[58andfixed]

I think that this 'belief,' is misled, and here is my collected perspective.

The Goddess initiated life on this Planet, and granted us the gift & responsibility of Free Will Choice -- which includes no intervention at all.

Sacrifies, contributions to the temple, nor prayer -- individual neither collective -- brings Gods intervention.

Because of the confusion at the collective level of civilization, specifically with small, concentrated cabals of elite, there are systems in place that will create injustice.

It will take a lot of study and questioning just how many mechanisms for injustice there are, how they work, and what sustainable alternatives will be just.

No fault of our own to have the highly probable experience of injustice, that has nothing to do with our intention and effort of being caring, peaceful, aware people.

Eventually, somewhere in eternity, I am comforted that there will be a re balancing of these injustices.

On this planet though, good intentions side-swipe a lot of people, and the worst one is not doing anything, under the mistaken belief that doing nothing isn't as bad as getting involved.

I don't doubt that many have heard that the "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

It is why I suspect every belief system has truths in them, but not every belief they collect are accurate, coherent, or 'on the mark.'

Matthew 5:45: KJV

".. for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

And yes, there are contradictory passages, if one wants to examine any Bible closely. I am simply raising the issue that this idea has been around for a long time, and can be a divisive issue depending on what people want to 'believe.'

If one looks at the amount of people that are living a minimal existence, their innocent eyes and young ages -- the expectation that "God sends grace to those that live good lives" is not realistic.

I encourage people to look at a much longer time-line, and continue to bring the highest morals and ethics that they can muster. Just don't expect that such intentions will manifest in joy and goodness, not that these are impossible feats.

Hope for the best, and still plan for the worst, and cut one another a lot of slack, for many are walking wounded.

Genesis 4:8-10 KJV:

"And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him."

"And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? "

Yes we are our brother's keeper. We are all connected. Living a connected life is a selfless life.

Life isn't really about what the individual 'gets out' of it. Life is what we collectively 'get out" of it, which would be the consequences of our collective choices.

I welcome you to point me to a better understanding of why & how wearing a halo and doing well, will manifest in a life experience of joy and goodness in our lives, and in the lives of those around us -- if you can.

- 58





The right path will bring joy and goodness and Gods blessings in your life and i would rather have that sooner than later.

And the fact that you can turn to God at any point in your life doesn't make it foolish it just shows us how great the grace of God is.

[58andfixed]

Satan and Lucifer are angels, both fallen.

Isaiah 14:12-15 & Luke 10:18.

Stories in a Bible, and if we are led to 'believe' that angels can be deceived, cannot mortals all be deceived ?

How would one know ?

Does one simply take another man's word ? 'Believe' thus, because this is what some else 'believes' ?

Has one done his duty simply to 'believe' another man ?

Are there more than one perspective one can glean from Romans 14:13 ?

Is there no value in questioning everything, for the truth can stand the closest of examination ? 2 Corinthians 13:5.

- 58




Satan is an angel

[RedeZra]

Stories in a Bible, and if we are led to 'believe' that angels can be deceived, cannot mortals all be deceived ?




"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." - Revelation 12:9

the whole world is in a state of deception


so i cling to Christ as hard as i can

til He is born in me

then i can see through it all


for God is not deceived

[58andfixed]

If all one clings to, is a desire to *know* truth through discernment, then it is only a matter of when one get there.

In the meantime, I could be mistaken by my subjective evaluation of having the widest possible perspective, as if I am there now. Could I not ?

I think that is where humility can be a useful tool. Maybe ?

And if 58 can lead someone else to discern, with their own devices, to a more accurate reality of their perspective, and it winds up being of greater wisdom - is that not a good thing ?

In dialog a person can risk nothing, test the validity of their own perspective and gain a lot, when trying on other peoples' shoes.

I have yet to be led back into the idea that Organized Religion has any functionality as a method for inner discovery.

Some choose Christ as a guide, and some choose others. Still others are so confused as to take no steps in any direction.

I think it is having a desire is one of many useful tools. So are prayer, contemplation, meditation and other tools.

Words on a page ? Those who stand in a position of authority, telling me deliver they deliver "the truth" -- I doubt that.

Ideas shared with one another, steel tested against steel -- can be a valuable exercise.

- 58



so i cling to Christ as hard as i can

til He is born in me

then i can see through it all

[Lord Sidious]

Stories in a Bible, and if we are led to 'believe' that angels can be deceived, cannot mortals all be deceived ?




"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." - Revelation 12:9

the whole world is in a state of deception


so i cling to Christ as hard as i can

til He is born in me

then i can see through it all


for God is not deceived

This makes you sound like a barnacle! :p

[jorr lundstrom]

When we are about one year we learn to stand up and walk, mum or dad

support us by holding our hands. When we can walk there is no reason to

cling to our parents when we walk, some years later we learn to drive a bike

in the beginning we might need training wheels to keep the bike straight up.

When we can balance our bike the training wheels are removed because they

are not needed anymore. And so on. When we are grown ups we shall be able

to think and feel and make our own decisions with the help of the discernment

we hopefully have aquired during the earlier years. We will of course still make

a lot of mistakes but we can always correct ourself so we dont do the same

mistake over and over again. As grown ups we might have an ability to believe

in our own ability to take care of ourself. The controllers on this planet hate

when people have the skills it takes to make their own decisions. They really

appreciate when people are dependent, because then they can be manipulated

through the channel between the individual and wot he or she is dependent on.

Many people cant get to the point where they have evolved an ability to go on

a ride without training wheels. One really cant say anything about it, its just the

way things are.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/stdhjul.jpg

[Lord Sidious]

Well I never!
Jorr Lundstrom the plagiarist! :p

[58andfixed]

Nicely said !

A wonderful apron, however ... "cling" ?

Reliance on something outside of our Creator given talents leaves too much room for subversion and manipulation.

Not to be disparaging, simply a direction to contemplate on.

John 20:17 - not in the KJV, however other versions use "cling," apparently in an effort to make a point.

- 58





so i cling to Christ as hard as i can

til He is born in me

then i can see through it all


for God is not deceived

This makes you sound like a barnacle! :p

[RedeZra]

there is a spark of Spirit within us

dormant like an ember


it flares up when we seek God

and when close to Christ

who is the Creative Heart of God

the spark bursts forth from within


like a full blown flame

for God is Spirit and fire

[another bob]

there is a spark of Spirit within us

dormant like an ember


it flares up when we seek God

and when close to Christ

who is the Creative Heart of God

the spark bursts forth from within


like a full blown flame

for God is Spirit and fire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ShQmZ7VJAM

Blessings!

[58andfixed]

There is no 'clinging' to this mechanism.

Connect with it, grow it, contemplate on it, commit to it, and take away all that stops from oxygen fanning it.

This is a mechanism I have a lot of trust in, for it has guided me through much deception and distraction.

- 58


there is a spark of Spirit within us

dormant like an ember

it flares up when we seek God

and when close to Christ

who is the Creative Heart of God

the spark bursts forth from within

like a full blown flame

for God is Spirit and fire

[Xenos]

The Bible is nice but it is right ? Jesus he is really human inside the book ? Personnaly I prefer the Catharism, the french christianism, very close to the orient christianism. It is a gnosis approach, very, very different that the mainstream way of seeing Jesus and Life in general.

As a Cathare, Christ is a dimensional being, it is Love. The third born. Because we have to know how a Universe etc born, and all of that, because "God" is not only Love... Love is part of "God". "Satan" work for him, things that religious people doesn't understand, they are living in a "black and white world" without shadow or subtility. Right vs Wrong or Good vs Bad, but never Good with Bad lol :) That we are treated with what we express in our mind and soul. We get what we give.

Jesus teaching, invisible in the Bible (curious isn't it ;) ) say that the jewish god is not the real "God" and that we depend on the Holy Spirit. After, it is technic. Because we have all the cosmogony etc. The Angel of Matter and the Angel of Energy... someway.

Their is thousands of tracks showing that "God" didn't created us, the texts speak about it, many philosopher too.

"God" is great, but behind the word do we find the real one ? ;) And so on with Jesus... because the Bible present the "God man" and not the man and Jesus was first of all, a man. To see him as a god put our conscience in a corner that we are not like him ! But we are ! And if he was here, like Buddha, they can say the same thing that I'm saying.

Last point, funny one :) Jesus won't come back... it is Adam. The man by whom everything started and will finish. A man blessed by the spirit of the instructor, he will explain the world and will be red, silent and great ! With him, Legion of the sky and all the Man race, the true and reall on... because we are actually a piece of history... not the beginning :) The end :)

[Fundy Gemini]

First: I believe that if Jesus brings you peace daily and strength in times of need, than that is all you need to know. It's a gift to be cherished ~

I don't want to offend anyone, but as this is a search I've been on I thought I'd share ..

For myself, my strict Christian upbringing never brought me peace and happiness. It brought me lots of fear- and guilt - and inflexible doctrine. So I was always full of questions about this mismatch of messages. Why do I need to live in fear for my mortal soul throughout my life - never living up to the perfection that is required? Why the different religions? Why would God go through all the trouble to create an entire universe so grand and beautiful - and then decide to plant some little humans on a little planet to pick-on so inflexibly? Who was Jesus, and why were there so many similarities to his story and some previous pagan beliefs .. and later .. why were some of the books of the Bible deleted/omitted (and meant to be destroyed?) Why so much manipulation around the whole story and - do we really know the whole story now? What do we NOT know?

I have to say that I I wanted to search until something made sense - and I am much happier for it.

Personally, I do believe Jesus was here. I believe he also was most likely crucified for his teachings, came close to death but did recover (and it was an amazing covert operation for the day!). I believe he then went back to India (where he grew up during his "missing years" studying under great masters there) and eventually after a long and pious life as a spiritual master, died in Kashmir India. I do not know if he had ET blood or bloodline?

If you have an hour I do recommend a most interesting documentary titled: The Truth of Jesus in Kashmir by the Film Division of the Government of India, it certainly did help to answer some of my questions.
W8FiKC7FYxE

[lightseeker]

For those who are interested I would recommend reading "Jesus and The Riddle of The Dead Sea Scrolls" written by Doctor Barbara Thiering who is a bibilical scholar, theologian and Dead Sea Scrolls Expert. The dead sea scrolls provide a much fuller picture of Jesus than can be found in the New Testament. Clearly Dr. Thiering has created some controvery, but the truth often does.

[Xenos]

I would like to try to answer to your question Fundy.


For myself, my strict Christian upbringing never brought me peace and happiness. It brought me lots of fear- and guilt - and inflexible doctrine. So I was always full of questions about this mismatch of messages. Why do I need to live in fear for my mortal soul throughout my life - never living up to the perfection that is required?

A Chritistian education is not strict... if it is, it is because they don't understand a word... and they are manipulated by the "others"... The Gnosis say that ""God" created every path, because all the path brings to Him". In reality, you can do whatever you want, it is a matter of understanding things, how you live things.

In France we have a very Holy christianism that has been destroyed by the roman catholic... Mary, Mary Magdalena and many apostles came in France with the Holy Graal and others things and gave it to us. In the world, and in the path, truth is destroyed because truth is dangerous... The real teaching say that "truth is cover, but lies are spread". I can tell everyday that is true, even if it is getting slower now and things seem to reverse slowly slowly.

It is the same all over the world and with buddhism too for exple... a lot of people forgot the real buddhism and only speak about tibetan... which are liars. I can tell you on many point.


Why the different religions?

I think that we can separate religion and philosophy, because a philosophy can be a religion but in realty, it is not.

They're is a plan in the semitic religion, and maybe one day, you'll understand. But, for now, what i can tell is that human are creation and they has been hurt so bad, that they need help... but they are handicapped race and the the "daemon" are always here changing people mind to modify the truth... the point is, truth is inside you and nobody can take you that...

Religion confuse your sense. "God" it is religious or not ?


Why would God go through all the trouble to create an entire universe so grand and beautiful - and then decide to plant some little humans on a little planet to pick-on so inflexibly?

Are you sure that "God" is responsible of that ? Don't you think that their is a greater plan ? The world is not "humano centric"... we live in a world full of people as it is hard to believe, and human are their for a meaning.

Are you sure to want to take the responsabilty of charging "God" ? And the others ? "God" is not a dictator...


Who was Jesus, and why were there so many similarities to his story and some previous pagan beliefs .. and later .. why were some of the books of the Bible deleted/omitted (and meant to be destroyed?) Why so much manipulation around the whole story and - do we really know the whole story now? What do we NOT know?

The similarities with pagan beliefs is for convert the pagans... so it is manipulation... almost all the official christianism is corrupted. And many books disappear to hide the truth... they are hide somewhere.


I believe he also was most likely crucified for his teachings, came close to death but did recover (and it was an amazing covert operation for the day!).

The Gospel of Peter say that Jesus has been killed by jewish... because it was in fact a war religion. Christianism is an evolution of judaism and Yahweh or Allah (which is "the matrix" indeed) didn't want that Jesus deliver his people.

Inside they're is a project too.

His resurrection is in the Gospel of Peter, and Jesus didn't recover and went in India smoking good weed (lucky guy !), he went in the sky, under the eyes of the great rabbi of Jerusalem and all the perpetrator and guards around the tomb, because they didn't want that Christian hebrew come to the tomb...


I believe he then went back to India (where he grew up during his "missing years" studying under great masters there) and eventually after a long and pious life as a spiritual master, died in Kashmir India. I do not know if he had ET blood or bloodline?

As some indian told when i was in India, Jesus came during his teenage age... at this time at 12 you were a man and almost married... so... not a problem to travel in the world, especially with all the trad and ancient roads from west to east.

Edit : The truth has never been heard before... normally... because truth destroy lies so easily that we give a chance to them to play the game lol... we are sweet :)

Edit 2 : Gospel of Peter in english : http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelpeter-brown.html

[RedeZra]

sense the intelligence in nature

see how perfect everything is


who's intelligence is it ?


who is working day and night to uphold it all


we can call it Tao or God

it doesn't matter


but since it is intelligent it is not impersonal

so God or Tao is Being


not cold and emotional but calm and loving


The Being

in whom everything ceases and from whom everything arises


The Being is not only energy force or love but The Whole Being


don't depersonalise God ; )

[Fundy Gemini]

Thank you Xenos ♥

[Xenos]

If you have other question Fundy Gemini, i'll try to answer with the greatest honesty :angel: and my limited english lol ;)

RedeZra, can you explain to how we can depersonalize "God" ? Are you a confessional person ? Muslim for exple ?

[shamanseeker]

sense the intelligence in nature

see how perfect everything is


who's intelligence is it ?


who is working day and night to uphold it all


we can call it Tao or God

it doesn't matter


but since it is intelligent it is not impersonal

so God or Tao is Being


not cold and emotional but calm and loving


The Being

in whom everything ceases and from whom everything arises


The Being is not only energy force or love but The Whole Being


don't depersonalise God ; )



Hi RedeZra,

During the Golden Age, animals and humans lived in perfect harmony: they did not prey on one another; they did not eat each other's flesh in order to gain the energy they needed to survive.

Then, the same beings who brought the religions to the earth to control us set up the matrix and everything changed. The cruel, so-called laws of nature became the 'norm' and the distance between God (which I would call love) and us became enormous.

God is love and love is God. It is as simple as that. There is no doctrine, no dogma: that is all illusion.

Soon, another Golden Age is coming and the lion will lie down with the lamb again and nature will become love once more.

Best wishes

[RedeZra]

RedeZra, can you explain to how we can depersonalize "God" ?

when we view God as energy love source or whatever then we limit and depersonalise God according to our own misunderstandings

God is Aware ; )

[RedeZra]

God is love and love is God. It is as simple as that. There is no doctrine, no dogma: that is all illusion.


true God is love too


the Golden age will not come before the uprooting of evil

[Xenos]

RedeZra, can you explain to how we can depersonalize "God" ?

when we view God as energy love source or whatever then we limit and depersonalise God according to our own misunderstandings

God is Aware ; )

So... as i understand... it is a personalization of "God" which is the problem right now ? Saying that "God" is aware, it is not the same that saying that "God" is love ? Awareness and love aren't part, or some faces of what is "God" ?

I don't understand how we can depersonalize "the One"... everything IS The Source... so... it is much a religious point of view "of sacred stuff" which doesn't exist. As Buddha said, "nothing is sacred because everything it is". Religious people compartmentalizes "God"... "this is good", "this is wrong, bad ! Bad boy !"

[RedeZra]

So... as i understand... it is a personalization of "God" which is the problem right now ? Saying that "God" is aware, it is not the same that saying that "God" is love ?

love is a facet and an expression of being aware

[Xenos]

So... as i understand... it is a personalization of "God" which is the problem right now ? Saying that "God" is aware, it is not the same that saying that "God" is love ?

love is a facet and an expression of being aware

Love could be blind too as the proverb says :)

To love isn't to be aware... doesn't fit in the real world.

What do you think ?

[shamanseeker]

RedeZra, can you explain to how we can depersonalize "God" ?

when we view God as energy love source or whatever then we limit and depersonalise God according to our own misunderstandings

God is Aware ; )

Hi RedeZra,

I didn't say that God was not aware. Just because I say God is Love does not mean God is unaware.

I think we would all (including myself) do well to 'think' more with the heart and less with the mind.

Best wishes

[RedeZra]

To love isn't to be aware... doesn't fit in the real world.


our world is just a shadow of the real world ; )

[another bob]

our world is just a shadow of the real world ; )

Greetings, Friend!

After some investigation, it appears that nobody has quite the same experience of this so-called "our world", much less anything even remotely approaching the "real world". The reason for this seems to be that (even in low-level psycho-physical realms this dense) experience itself is as endless as thought, and can be viewed moreover from any number of angles. How else to account for so many eyes, if not for the mere fact that there's simply so much to see?
Within the totality of the universal functioning, consciousness assumes a particular form to precisely fit each experience, and thus a unique viewer appears in order to experience the scene. However, as fades the scene, so too the viewer. The viewer was a only temporary expediency created by consciousness to experience itself in just that way, whatever it happened to be.
The only "problem" comes when we mistakenly assume that the temporary viewer is our actual identity, and the scene our "real" location. This case of mistaken identity is also called attachment, and is there at the root of our chronic dissatisfaction and restless head-banging. We believe ourselves to be implicated somehow by experience, and this belief spins itself into an increasingly tangled mess, until it seems that we're disturbed in one way or another just about all the time.
We've tied our fate to that of a fictional character, a creation, and so wring our hands at what may befall if the pole were to shift or mean aliens arrive, and so some pray to this or that Savior to intervene and get us out of the shadow world and into the light.

There is no greater mystery than this -
that being the Reality ourselves,
we seek to gain Reality.

We think that there is something binding
our reality and that it must be destroyed
before the reality is gained.

It is ridiculous!

A day will dawn when you will yourself
laugh at your effort.

That which is on the day of laughter
is also now.

~Ramana Maharshi


Blessings!

[Xenos]

To love isn't to be aware... doesn't fit in the real world.


our world is just a shadow of the real world ; )

I'm not "humano centric" RedeZra :) This world is not my border.

Just have love and we'll see how you can manage with beings, nasty ones :) Jacques Vallée and an other "ufolog" (don't remember, Cynthia Luce ?) show up that they can putt off your love... and yes, they can... they can destroy you in your inside... and control... so you have to know who you are. Truly, because when you are in the story... times are pretty hard.

So, theory are nice, but in the arena... you dance in a different way. If you try you'll understand... if you survive. No joke here.



our world is just a shadow of the real world ; )

Greetings, Friend!

After some investigation, it appears that nobody has quite the same experience of this so-called "our world", much less anything even remotely approaching the "real world". The reason for this seems to be that (even in low-level psycho-physical realms this dense) experience itself is as endless as thought, and can be viewed moreover from any number of angles. How else to account for so many eyes, if not for the mere fact that there's simply so much to see?
Within the totality of the universal functioning, consciousness assumes a particular form to precisely fit each experience, and thus a unique viewer appears in order to experience the scene. However, as fades the scene, so too the viewer. The viewer was a only temporary expediency created by consciousness to experience itself in just that way, whatever it happened to be.
The only "problem" comes when we mistakenly assume that the temporary viewer is our actual identity, and the scene our "real" location. This case of mistaken identity is also called attachment, and is there at the root of our chronic dissatisfaction and restless head-banging. We believe ourselves to be implicated somehow by experience, and this belief spins itself into an increasingly tangled mess, until it seems that we're disturbed in one way or another just about all the time.
We've tied our fate to that of a fictional character, a creation, and so wring our hands at what may befall if the pole were to shift or mean aliens arrive, and so some pray to this or that Savior to intervene and get us out of the shadow world and into the light.

There is no greater mystery than this -
that being the Reality ourselves,
we seek to gain Reality.

We think that there is something binding
our reality and that it must be destroyed
before the reality is gained.

It is ridiculous!

A day will dawn when you will yourself
laugh at your effort.

That which is on the day of laughter
is also now.

~Ramana Maharshi


Blessings!

Interesting, but maybe one another reason for why their is different way of seeing the "real world" is based on our awareness. We are all have the same potential, but we don't use it equally and we are not evolving at the same speed... and we don't have to forget that our path are different in present life and past life also. Some of us are very old... even in a body of a child... form doesn't matter.

[RedeZra]

our world is just a shadow of the real world ; )

After some investigation, it appears that nobody has quite the same experience of this so-called "our world", much less anything even remotely approaching the "real world".

sure there are most likely many layers of illusion

some more refined and long lasting than others


it is hard to reach Heaven and even harder to achieve Reality

but Righteousness is the Royal road to both of them





Just have love and we'll see how you can manage with beings, nasty ones

... they can destroy you in your inside... and control... so you have to know who you are.

So, theory are nice, but in the arena... you dance in a different way. If you try you'll understand... if you survive. No joke here.


i know from experience that the world is infested with ethereal evil entities

who can manifest and manipulate both matter and mind


i eat them for breakfast ; )

[another bob]

maybe one another reason for why their is different way of seeing the "real world" is based on our awareness. We are all have the same potential, but we don't use it equally and we are not evolving at the same speed... and we don't have to forget that our path are different in present life and past life also. Some of us are very old... even in a body of a child... form doesn't matter.

Greetings, Friend!

Thank you for your comments.

Form is just form, which is a child of emptiness. Emptiness is pure potential.

Although an intriguing concept, time is not applicable in reality. Hence, speedy or slow, old or young, does not have any enduring meaning except what the conditioned mind grants in fantasies of interpretation on perception.

Likewise, past lives, present lives, and future lives are all children of a barren woman.

Awareness is indivisble, since there is only Source. Nevertheless, there appears to be multiplicity. That is the game of Source, to examine experience from every angle. This is where we come in -- each one of us provides Source with a slightly different viewpoint, and so just to BE is enough, as far as Source is concerned. It really doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

Blessings!

[Xenos]

Just have love and we'll see how you can manage with beings, nasty ones

... they can destroy you in your inside... and control... so you have to know who you are.

So, theory are nice, but in the arena... you dance in a different way. If you try you'll understand... if you survive. No joke here.


i know from experience that the world is infested with ethereal evil entities

who can manifest and manipulate both matter and mind


i eat them for breakfast ; )

You eat them for breakfast ? On a big piece of arrogance or what ? Allow me to doubt on your words. Arrogance is not a matter in the World... and arrogance is a weapon that they can turn on you.

Most of the time they like to test you with words like yours... to play.



maybe one another reason for why their is different way of seeing the "real world" is based on our awareness. We are all have the same potential, but we don't use it equally and we are not evolving at the same speed... and we don't have to forget that our path are different in present life and past life also. Some of us are very old... even in a body of a child... form doesn't matter.

Greetings, Friend!

Thank you for your comments.

Form is just form, which is a child of emptiness. Emptiness is pure potential.

Although an intriguing concept, time is not applicable in reality. Hence, speedy or slow, old or young, does not have any enduring meaning except what the conditioned mind grants in fantasies of interpretation on perception.

Likewise, past lives, present lives, and future lives are all children of a barren woman.

Awareness is indivisble, since there is only Source. Nevertheless, there appears to be multiplicity. That is the game of Source, to examine experience from every angle. This is where we come in -- each one of us provides Source with a slightly different viewpoint, and so just to BE is enough, as far as Source is concerned. It really doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

Blessings!

Right, i'm agree. But i would say Space and Time... Space is form don't you think ?

I don't think that The Source is playing... it is creating... revealing.

When you speak about "each one of us provides Source with a slightly different viewpoint" you mean human ?

After, it depend of what you want to be. Have a simple life or to enter in the World... because you can't have a life in your corner if you choose really The Source... it is pure denial or ignorance.. why ? Because The Source IS 1. That's why. So, how can you live in your corner with the whole Creation at your door ? Sounds weird.

[another bob]

Right, i'm agree. But i would say Space and Time... Space is form don't you think ?


Greetings, Friend!

From what I can tell, space and time are concepts. Form itself is a mental fabrication. How so? Space and time appear as thoughts in the mind of Source, hence you will hear the likes of the magnificent Huang Po elucidating the principle of One Mind. If you try to find anything outside of this One Mind, you cannot. Matter is mind energy vibrating at certain frequencies, and from the very no-beginning there is only this energy. This energy we can call Source, which takes all the forms and plays all the roles, but is only always Itself, which is why I say "play", in the same sense that a child playfully constructs their own dreamy universe. When tired of it all, the child takes a nap and the universe disappears. The Vedas call it the Sleep of God.




I don't think that The Source is playing... it is creating... revealing.

Realize that "creating", "revealing", "playing" are all words describing the same activity (which is unalloyed bliss beyond comprehension).




When you speak about "each one of us provides Source with a slightly different viewpoint" you mean human ?

In this context, but keep in mind not exclusively human. Humanity is but one drop of water in an infinite sea of being.



how can you live in your corner with the whole Creation at your door ?

There is no corner to creation -- if I have to say something, it's more like a circle without center or circumference.

Blessings!

[RedeZra]

You eat them for breakfast ? On a big piece of arrogance or what ? Allow me to doubt on your words. Arrogance is not a matter in the World... and arrogance is a weapon that they can turn on you.

Most of the time they like to test you with words like yours... to play.



doubt does not appease my appetite

and by the way it's not arrogance but confidence

[music]

Quoting the basic book-keeping of any sacred text to prove that your God is better than anyone else's God, or that your God is more likely to have historically existed, is a waste of time, and quite frankly, tiresome. The only point of any sacred text are the sublime moments when we reach those places that are common to us all. The moments when we see that we are one, and the only thing that matters is Love. Now, you can paint any face you like on to your God, that is fine by me, but it really is time to move beyond this childish game of my God is bigger than your God, like children in a schoolyard, appealing to a higher power to fight their battle for them.

I have had visions of Jesus, and "he" exists for me, but I have had visions and wondrous experiences with many avatars and aspects of divine consciousness, and the one thing that is common to all these energies is that they Love and cherish all of us, regardless of our faith or belief in them. The biblical "nobody comes unto the father but through me", as far as my seeing tells me, means "nobody approaches the divine until, like me, they realise that they are one with "God"."



Love and Blessings to you all

[Lord Sidious]

Quoting the basic book-keeping of any sacred text to prove that your God is better than anyone else's God, or that your God is more likely to have historically existed, is a waste of time, and quite frankly, tiresome. The only point of any sacred text are the sublime moments when we reach those places that are common to us all. The moments when we see that we are one, and the only thing that matters is Love. Now, you can paint any face you like on to your God, that is fine by me, but it really is time to move beyond this childish game of my God is bigger than your God, like children in a schoolyard, appealing to a higher power to fight their battle for them.

I have had visions of Jesus, and "he" exists for me, but I have had visions and wondrous experiences with many avatars and aspects of divine consciousness, and the one thing that is common to all these energies is that they Love and cherish all of us, regardless of our faith or belief in them. The biblical "nobody comes unto the father but through me", as far as my seeing tells me, means "nobody approaches the divine until, like me, they realise that they are one with "God"."



Love and Blessings to you all

All of the texts are training wheels to get us to learn how to ride the bike ourselves.
But most never take the training wheels off.

[music]

Quoting the basic book-keeping of any sacred text to prove that your God is better than anyone else's God, or that your God is more likely to have historically existed, is a waste of time, and quite frankly, tiresome. The only point of any sacred text are the sublime moments when we reach those places that are common to us all. The moments when we see that we are one, and the only thing that matters is Love. Now, you can paint any face you like on to your God, that is fine by me, but it really is time to move beyond this childish game of my God is bigger than your God, like children in a schoolyard, appealing to a higher power to fight their battle for them.

I have had visions of Jesus, and "he" exists for me, but I have had visions and wondrous experiences with many avatars and aspects of divine consciousness, and the one thing that is common to all these energies is that they Love and cherish all of us, regardless of our faith or belief in them. The biblical "nobody comes unto the father but through me", as far as my seeing tells me, means "nobody approaches the divine until, like me, they realise that they are one with "God"."



Love and Blessings to you all

All of the texts are training wheels to get us to learn how to ride the bike ourselves.
But most never take the training wheels off.

haha, I'll pay that :)

[RedeZra]

how can we have a relationship with God if we never relate to Him

if we don't hear His voice nor see His form then we don't know God




Everybody ignores Jesus

GfSVOqmv3Qc

[music]

how can we have a relationship with God if we never relate to Him

if we don't hear His voice nor see His form then we don't know God



I said this somewhere else, so excuse me for repeating, but it is pertinent here:

On the 31st of October 2011, a monumentous event occurred, but unfortunantly it went largely unnoticed. On the this day, the 7 billionth current religion was ushered onto this planet. Though most of these religions choose to aggregate under a number of umbrella orginisations, causing great strife and confusion, certain facts remain.

Religion or spirituality is an intensely personal thing.

All religions and spirituality are fundamentally looking for, and saying, the same thing.

Every school of religious or spiritual thought is diluted by the aggregation process, because the only valid spiritual experience for each of us is our own.

Good and evil are concepts that only pertain to duality-based ego-consciousness.

Our true nature is unity.

Our true nature is Love.

[jorr lundstrom]

So, I guess from wot you say that you see religion as a genetic

defect that everyone is born with. Im not soooo sure about that.

[music]

So, I guess from wot you say that you see religion as a genetic

defect that everyone is born with. Im not soooo sure about that.

Sorry, but I must admit, I am completely at a loss to see where you get that idea from my words. Religion, in the sense it is used here, is that innate desire to be reunited with source - the quest for the sublimity of Love - that is expressed in a unique way within us all. Hardly a defect, and hardly genetically based since its origin lies outside of mundane reality. Many people turn away from that which is actually real, in favour of this playground we call "reality", and that is their choice to make. We each have our own journey, and as we travel, we should be ever-mindful to respect the paths chosen by others.

[music]

To illustrate a point, please let me draw everyone's attention to the "tag cloud" at the bottom of this thread: atheist, christianity, discovery, jesus, journey. I mean you no disrespect Krullenjongen, and this may well have been unconscious on your part, but what you are saying here is that there is the journey of Jesus discovery that is Christianity, and there is atheism. Now you may well believe that, and that is your right, which I respect, but from there, it is but a short philosophical step to the worst excesses of intolerance.

Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus, and anyone who can't see that, does not know Jesus.

[58andfixed]

It seems to me that Jesus was against fixed dogma, hypocrisy (not walking the talk), rules and a hierarchal structure of Organized Religion, according to most Bibles.

Mark 12:38-40 (KJV)

And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,
And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:
Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Luke 20:45-47 (KJV)

Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Matthew 23:1-36 (KJV)

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
... <more from the chapter> ...

It's why I encourage people who refer to what they 'believe' Jesus was about or said, actually be familiar with at least some one of the various Bibles, and preferably examined the many contextual errors. Reading some of the non-traditional material, beginning with the various Apocrypha wouldn't hurt either.

A belief can be the basis for tolerance, that one then chooses to put into action and live, not merely believe.

DOGMA can be the core for intolerance and division, which should not be simply accepted.

An environment of asking questions would seem to be that most conducive to acceptance and different choices for a way of living, and I don't see that happening as a result of Organized Religion.

- 58




[B]Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus, and anyone who can't see that, does not know Jesus.

[RedeZra]

Religion or spirituality is an intensely personal thing.


Good and evil are concepts that only pertain to duality-based ego-consciousness.

Our true nature is unity.

Our true nature is Love.

yes it is personal and there is nothing wrong with coming together in communion


evil is not a concept to be taken lightly for it will lead us to hell

do not pretend to be above good and evil

when you're not there yet

[music]

Religion or spirituality is an intensely personal thing.


Good and evil are concepts that only pertain to duality-based ego-consciousness.

Our true nature is unity.

Our true nature is Love.

yes it is personal and there is nothing wrong with coming together in communion


evil is not a concept to be taken lightly for it will lead us to hell

do not pretend to be above good and evil

when you're not there yet

Please explain what you mean by "there".

[58andfixed]

Hi RedeZra:

Where do you believe "evil" comes from, and why do you believe "evil" exists ?

There seems to be a lot of perspectives on "hell," so when you use the term, I'm not clear what your understanding is.

I'm curious to see any references of "hell," including books outside of any Bible, to sustain your perspective as well.

Personally, "hell" doesn't fit in with a First Source that is loving and trusts us to make uncoerced Free Will Choices.

- 58






evil is not a concept to be taken lightly for it will lead us to hell

do not pretend to be above good and evil

[RedeZra]

Where do you believe "evil" comes from, and why do you believe "evil" exists ?

There seems to be a lot of perspectives on "hell," so when you use the term, I'm not clear what your understanding is.

it is better to look and listen to testimonies from people who have experienced evil

before we start an intellectual debate about it




please take 7 min of time to watch this testimony from a massage therapist


OCldsyeZQgs









evil is not a concept to be taken lightly for it will lead us to hell

do not pretend to be above good and evil

when you're not there yet

Please explain what you mean by "there".


That would be Reality


and also if filled with the Spirit of God

for then we could not do evil or wrong

even if we wanted to

[music]

evil is not a concept to be taken lightly for it will lead us to hell

do not pretend to be above good and evil

when you're not there yet

Please explain what you mean by "there".


That would be Reality


and also if filled with the Spirit of God

for then we could not do evil or wrong

even if we wanted to

No, not sure what you mean by that, but never mind.

Though you are in agreement with Alistair Crowley there:

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

The knee-jerk reaction to this is, horror of horrors, the Beast says it's OK to do anything!

This is wrong

Crowley speaks from the perspective of the enlightened soul - true awareness - where one is at one with the universe, and is of such perfection of nature, that one has no need of the feeble laws of man because an enlightened being will act always to the highest principle.

"Love is the Law, Love under will".

These are in accord with you, and also with the St Augustine of Hippo: "Love, and do what thou wilt"

We don't need the fear of a bogeyman to be good, we just need to be Love.

Love

[Lord Sidious]

Well, I think it should be ''Do what thou wilt, harm no one, damage no property.''
That isn't as broad a brush as it sounds.
But then, when you start whatever we are going through, a lot of the things that people want to do aren't attractive anymore.
I have very simple tastes and needs.

[music]

It's all about perspective. If we really "are" Love, we can do no harm to person or property.

Simplicity is freedom.

[58andfixed]

Hi RedeZra:

Watched the video.

Didn't help me to understand what you understand.

Also, not interesting in arguing. Not interested in a debate. I don't want to get intellectual.

So....

Where do you believe "evil" comes from, and why do you believe "evil" exists ?

There seems to be a lot of perspectives on "hell," so when you use the term, I'm not clear what your understanding is.

I'm curious to see any references of "hell," including books outside of any Bible, to sustain your perspective as well.

Personally, "hell" doesn't fit in with a First Source that is loving and trusts us to make uncoerced Free Will Choices.

- 58

[jorr lundstrom]

Its perfectly ok for me wot so ever people want to believe in. But when a believe

system think their own followers to be righteous and everyone who refuse to

believe the same is unaccepted and should be killed, I think there is something

very wrong with that believesystem. And when followers of such a believesystem

speaks about love, my advice is, watch up for the dagger.

[RedeZra]

Though you are in agreement with Alistair Crowley there:

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

The knee-jerk reaction to this is, horror of horrors, the Beast says it's OK to do anything!

This is wrong



Peace be upon you child of God


you have read me wrong up there

painted a picture of me

which is your own imagination


God bless you

[RedeZra]

Where do you believe "evil" comes from, and why do you believe "evil" exists ?

I'm curious to see any references of "hell," including books outside of any Bible, to sustain your perspective as well.

Personally, "hell" doesn't fit in with a First Source that is loving and trusts us to make uncoerced Free Will Choices.


Peace be upon you child of God


evil is God's devil and a Cherub who chose to fall

hell is mentioned by the Buddha and in the Vedas

and hell fits with a a First Source that is loving and just as well


God bless you

[music]

Though you are in agreement with Alistair Crowley there:

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

The knee-jerk reaction to this is, horror of horrors, the Beast says it's OK to do anything!

This is wrong



Peace be upon you child of God


you have read me wrong up there

painted a picture of me

which is your own imagination


God bless you

Bless you too, but all I was saying is that the fundamental message is the same, regardless of which seeker of spirit it comes from, or from which tradition.

Oh, and I have peace already, thank you :)

[modwiz]

I have to admire the civility here. Much more important than cosmology, IMHO.

[58andfixed]

Thanks RedeZra:

So, aside from "hell" being mentioned in the Vedas, the OT, but not in the NT, and nothing Jesus said gave any specifics about what "hell" is, it seems to me that anything anyone 'believes' about "hell" is more than likely just an opinion.

I had purposed to gain insight on your understanding of "evil," yet you digress into entities: "God's devil" and "a Cherub." I do make distinction between "evil" and "beings that are evil."

I lack a comprehension of your perspective on "evil" alone, and perhaps you could relate "evil" to humans, if you care to.

Also, I'd be interesting in a narrative of how a "First Source that is loving" when building The Universe, designs in a place or process called "hell." It has never fit to me, and while I do know people refer to "hell," not one single person has been capable of any narration of any kind of rhyme nor reason that hasn't been a concoction, much less with any reference to some scriptural source anywhere.

You might be the first, and I am open to it. Just that I doubt it, given the history of my attempts.

- 58






Where do you believe "evil" comes from, and why do you believe "evil" exists ?

I'm curious to see any references of "hell," including books outside of any Bible, to sustain your perspective as well.

Personally, "hell" doesn't fit in with a First Source that is loving and trusts us to make uncoerced Free Will Choices.


evil is God's devil and a Cherub who chose to fall

hell is mentioned by the Buddha and in the Vedas

and hell fits with a a First Source that is loving and just as well

[Krullenjongen]

To illustrate a point, please let me draw everyone's attention to the "tag cloud" at the bottom of this thread: atheist, christianity, discovery, jesus, journey. I mean you no disrespect Krullenjongen, and this may well have been unconscious on your part, but what you are saying here is that there is the journey of Jesus discovery that is Christianity, and there is atheism. Now you may well believe that, and that is your right, which I respect, but from there, it is but a short philosophical step to the worst excesses of intolerance.

Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus, and anyone who can't see that, does not know Jesus.

No offence taken.
I just wanted to describe what this video was all about.
It is about an ATHEIST who comes in contact with CHRISTIANITY, he goes on a research mission of DISCOVERY about JESUS and this is his JOURNEY.

I totally agree that Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus.
Did i somewhere display these traits?

[music]

To illustrate a point, please let me draw everyone's attention to the "tag cloud" at the bottom of this thread: atheist, christianity, discovery, jesus, journey. I mean you no disrespect Krullenjongen, and this may well have been unconscious on your part, but what you are saying here is that there is the journey of Jesus discovery that is Christianity, and there is atheism. Now you may well believe that, and that is your right, which I respect, but from there, it is but a short philosophical step to the worst excesses of intolerance.

Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus, and anyone who can't see that, does not know Jesus.

No offence taken.
I just wanted to describe what this video was all about.
It is about an ATHEIST who comes in contact with CHRISTIANITY, he goes on a research mission of DISCOVERY about JESUS and this is his JOURNEY.

I totally agree that Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus.
Did i somewhere display these traits?

No, I think you have initiated a useful discourse on the similarities of faith, rather than the differences. Thank you.

[58andfixed]

Thanks again Krullenjongen for having made the OP, introduced this video and offering your summary.

I don't agree with the selective manipulation of the argument in the video, however having been down this road so many times in so many other places, I know the excessive amount of time & energy it consumes from me to point out the weakness of the argument, flaws of logic, and disconnect of the conclusions made from the issues raised.

I initially chose the perceived path, for this thread, of selecting from the posts in reply to the OP, those OPINIONS that do not reflect the tie between an 'accurate Bible,' the obvious need for an 'Organized Religion,' [aka Church], and the variant list of Doctrines that goes with each of the 33,000+ Denominations of Christianity, hidden under the guise of 'whether Christ existed.'

However, these beliefs that I hold, which came about through the paths of having walked the pits of fire myself, including both reading and studying various Bibles, belonging to two ideologies, as well as studying material that delves into the contextual problems. I have read and studied much material outside of Bibles as well, so I have a rather unique bias to offer here.

I recognize that this is a highly emotionally charged issue, and from one instant where I use certain words and accumulate friends, it takes but one more post where I use other words and people REACT with strong emotion, most likely only because it simply conflicts with some particular belief they cling onto, and there is often little to support that, other than that sacred belief is common to the circle of people that congregate together.

So in the one instance, where there are meaningful values to extract from the social benefit in the local sense, that same set of beliefs will be counter to another, and the entire 'Judeo-Christian' mind-set is so subdivided as to bring serious question to the validity of any Bible, or any one of the various denominations of Christianity.

The why of this ease of divisibility seem to be rooted in tools of social engineering for conformity, even though a good thought that would counter the "Intolerance and disrespect of another's belief is counter to the Love of Jesus" argument could be extracted from any number of citations. Here's just four:

1. Proverbs 27:17 (KJV) "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."


2. Mark 12:38-40 (KJV)

And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

3. Luke 20:45-47 (KJV)

Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples, Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

4. Matthew 23:1-36 (KJV)

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
... <more from the chapter> ...

I select these point of reference, because I make an assumption from the bias of the material, these are points of reference that have meaning for you that are simply missing from the argument made. I prefer to avoid other points of reference that would sustain my perspective, because this would entertain a much longer dialog and likely introduce yet additional points of resistance.

*****


What I summarize from the video, is that a couple who were ATHEIST at the time of marriage, appeared to be headed towards division, because the wife had a change of heart for what she wanted to believe. The husband, a journalist and Biblical skeptic, finally found reasons to accept a belief that was similar enough to his wife to bring about harmony in their relationship.

The husband rationalized his discoveries, just as many ordinary humans do, and the process of examining evidence and conclusion does not anywhere near approach process of peer-reviewed science publications, or what one would expect in a court of law, although the video makes a strong implication that this is what is done.

The bias is so thorough, that in other arenas would be called propaganda -- the framing of a conclusion to be reached is done by the selection of issues to be considered, and excluding relevant opposite perspectives.

Peppered throughout the video, other people interject their opinions from a variety of sources that supports the belief for Jesus, and in this process assume some DOCTRINE peculiar to their denomination, that many of which would run counter to a secular scholar on any one of a number of beliefs.

So I would expect anyone who has already decided to believe in Jesus, and is leaning towards going to a Church, will "buy the storyline." Anyone who has already decided that they have experiences of division, hypocrisy under the guise of Organized Religion, perhaps even revulsion from studying history of Religious Wars, won't even bother watching the entirety of the video.

Thus this would be standard Church propaganda that only supports continued division under the banner of "We Are For Christ," but any newcomers must also accept these additional doctrines -- which conflict with other people's opinions.

I take the time to do these very extended posts, which I normally have a distaste for, to detail much more the distinction that is best to make between "God, Bibles and Organized Religion."

I take it as an assumption in life that there is a First Source [aka God] for this explains much for me, and purposes me to live life like few others.

After a most thorough examination of Bibles, Organized Religion and some additional Doctrines that seem to reflect more the contrivance of mens minds than anything that reflects a much more simple, harmonious, nondivisive reality that was likely intended by The First Source, are more likely either a subversion of Lucifer, malevolence on the part of mortals and simple ignorance [people don't know what they don't know].

I think there is an innate desire to socialize for people that is a very good function indeed. Where the problem arises, particularly under the guise of some good intent, is when division is instigated. Particularly more repulsive to me, is when false ideas are contrived that keeps us divided.

I think much is to be gained, particularly during these troubling days, from understanding the advantages for the removal of created lines of division, and examining the past as well as current structures that contribute to dis-functionality, and to resolve to choose unity over conformity. The pursuit of truth over the letting go of false personal ideas that divide us, and the letting go of which causes great emotional grief.

In this perspective, I must be respectful, however I will not allow for the misdirection of my intent to challenge poorly vetted beliefs that appear faulty to simply call my efforts "Intolerant and Disrespectful" when what my efforts are more accurately described as a challenge to someone else's loose & sloppy thinking -- and either adds to, or creates a divide between men that would be best to be eliminated, and not clung to in a sacrosanct manner at all costs.

I hope this helps to counter the insinuating posts, and propensity for onlookers to spin my intent in a direction I had not intended.

My intent is to not develop an argument and win it.

My intent is to help posters examine ideas and beliefs that I deem faulty, from past examination for my own satisfaction, to a point where either I learn and broadened my beliefs that will reflect less division, or perhaps the other may reflect a belief that will reflect less division -- and that may not happen for years, if ever.

There is everything to gain from deep examination, and nothing to be lost for sharpening the countenance of each other.

Certainly, being able to comfortably socialize under the context of a "First Source" as a given, with the least potential for divisibility, I believe, to be a latent and potential force that will blow the minds of any Organized Religion -- however that will require a lot of 'unlearning' of faulty ideas.

Labeling countering opinions as intolerant and disrespectful simply to endorse 'the method of Political Correctness,' is itself a false idea that disrespects the potential for removing lines drawn in the sand.

The socially engineered idea that "you can believe what you want to believe, and I can believe what I want to believe" is a core seed to the current paradigm of divisibility.

One idea that can break this log-jam of division will be to be willing to deeply examine all of our individual beliefs, to determine which ones contribute to division. After this becomes a widespread and acceptable perspective, I believe civilization then has the potential to collaborate on solutions for "The Problem" and the symptoms that have been created out of division.

- 58






I just wanted to describe what this video was all about.
It is about an ATHEIST who comes in contact with CHRISTIANITY, he goes on a research mission of DISCOVERY about JESUS and this is his JOURNEY.

I totally agree that Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus.

[RedeZra]

Also, I'd be interesting in a narrative of how a "First Source that is loving" when building The Universe, designs in a place or process called "hell." It has never fit to me, and while I do know people refer to "hell," not one single person has been capable of any narration of any kind of rhyme nor reason that hasn't been a concoction, much less with any reference to some scriptural source anywhere.


free will is a fantastic gift but it comes with a catch


God is Holy and has Standards

and we are not without advice or warning

about the consequences of our choices


hell was designed for the devil and his angels

but those who do the work of the devil will have to spend time with him in hell


which is a place for evil as real as heaven and earth

because Jesus spoke of it and Buddha too and all the saints

besides there are testemonies from Near Death Experiences


the Ten Commandments are for us to know the difference between right and wrong

so nobody can play idiot and say "i didn't know"


we do know right from wrong

and right goes up while wrong goes down

[58andfixed]

Thanks RedeZra.

One things most embroiled in any one of the Organized Religions seem to enjoy, is focusing on FEAR, and are complicit in a "hell" on Earth.

"You're Gonna Get Your Mind Right"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPOebwXI0gA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPOebwXI0gA

2m 5s 3,936 views

Clip from "Cool Hand Luke."

BTW.... in your congregation, does God hate fags too ?

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

http://static.godhatesfags.com/images/logo.png

As I have it, they use the same book.

- 58





hell was designed for the devil and his angels

but those who do the work of the devil will have to spend time with him in hell

which is a place for evil as real as heaven and earth

[RedeZra]

BTW.... in your congregation, does God hate fags too ?



i belong to the Christ and not a church


if it is not found in the Ten Commandments then it is maybe a minor offense


anyway we all fall short of the Glory of God

but we just have to keep our hearts warm with Him in our minds

and He will speak manifest guide and guard

[Centauro]

I Can't figure this one out....

The majority of Christian's (not all) are so obsessed within their rituals, symbolism, repetitive prayers, and their narrow minds in understanding the meaning of Chris's presence that they get lost in their own view. The Atheists, well I won't even go there, and then is the rest of us. When one mentions Christ you are look at like if you a carrying a decease or some crap like that.

All I see is the message.

Isn't that enough?

An open mind is a estate of being, and if you put barriers at its core you are cheating yourself.


Roland

[panopticon]

i belong to the Christ and not a church
if it is not found in the Ten Commandments then it is maybe a minor offense
anyway we all fall short of the Glory of God
but we just have to keep our hearts warm with Him in our minds
and He will speak manifest guide and guard


G'day RedeZra,

I see no glory in the God you revere.
As an individual you are free to proclaim reverence for the male personification of your choice if you so wish.
I disagree with your statements, however support your right to express them.
I await your usual succinct reply.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[panopticon]

G'day Centauro,

I agree with much that you have said.
The reliance on ritual, the lack of understanding, the glorification of a patriarchal figure, the reliance on a collection of texts of dubious origins...
I too see nothing wrong with messages like "care for others" and many other statements that are useful for co-existence, norm regulation, and cohesion in society. It is when these messages are taken and twisted (as 58andfixed expressed above) that control and power manipulation come into play.

Many Australians have an aversion to what is colloquially referred to here (and else where I believe) as "God Botherers". I reckon this comes from a healthy distrust of authority in general. I, however, have spent many happy hours in discussion with pastors, priests, Mormon and JW Elders, and persons from many other beliefs and learnt much from them all. I must confess that I have never had the opportunity to speak with a Mufti or Imam so I am largely ignorant of the subtleties of the Islamic traditions.

I completely agree with your statement:
'An open mind is a estate of being, and if you but barriers at its core you are cheating yourself.'

Beautifully said.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Lord Sidious]

G'day Centauro,

I agree with much that you have said.
The reliance on ritual, the lack of understanding, the glorification of a patriarchal figure, the reliance on a collection of texts of dubious origins...
I too see nothing wrong with messages like "care for others" and many other statements that are useful for co-existence, norm regulation, and cohesion in society. It is when these messages are taken and twisted (as 58andfixed expressed above) that control and power manipulation come into play.

Many Australians have an aversion to what is colloquially referred to here (and else where I believe) as "God Botherers". I reckon this comes from a healthy distrust of authority in general. I, however, have spent many happy hours in discussion with pastors, priests, Mormon and JW Elders, and persons from many other beliefs and learnt much from them all. I must confess that I have never had the opportunity to speak with a Mufti or Imam so I am largely ignorant of the subtleties of the Islamic traditions.

I completely agree with your statement:
'An open mind is a estate of being, and if you but barriers at its core you are cheating yourself.'

Beautifully said.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

If you want to discuss islam, go to one of the mosques and speak with the imam.
They are usually happy to talk to you.
Don't be surprised if they try hard to convert you.

[panopticon]

G'day Lord Sidious,

When I had the chance I was too busy.
There ain't no Mosques in Tassie, at least not within 100k of here anyway.
Close as I could get is a prayer hall (not the same).
I usually enjoy nattering with "moderates" as they tend to be able to hold a conversation without conversion.
I don't bother with conservatives (fundamentalists) as it tends to end in their raised voices.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Centauro]

Hey Panopticon, thank you for your comments on my post...was gonna do it through your page, but you don't allow messages. Anyway, love your point of view as well.

"If all the eyes could see..."


Roland el Centauro

[Beren]

I Can't figure this one out....

The majority of Christian's (not all) are so obsessed within their rituals, symbolism, repetitive prayers, and their narrow minds in understanding the meaning of Chris's presence that they get lost in their own view. The Atheists, well I won't even go there, and then is the rest of us. When one mentions Christ you are look at like if you a carrying a decease or some crap like that.

All I see is the message.

Isn't that enough?

An open mind is a estate of being, and if you put barriers at its core you are cheating yourself.


Roland

Message is the core.

And message is ~Love your neighbor as yourself~Love God with all your heart ,soul ,mind and strength~

What ever people do in effort to discredit Christ in any conceivable way will just make things wrong for them since you can`t beat the message!

We hear bashing and trashing, was he there or not, did he didn`t he, an impostor ,liar,demon worshiper,NWO puppet, an ET, Maitreya ,Sananda, and might be a little Johnny from the corner...

Message still stands clear as a bright sunny day, engraved into consciousness field of eternity and us- Love your neighbor as yourself and before all Love God with all your heart,soul,mind and strength~

While we as humanity quarrel about above quoted things , our world is suffering and we along with it. Animal and plant realms are dying rapidly because of our fallen conscience and all that Christ was doing was and is lifting up our consciousness to remember that we are of God just like he is.

Now go ahead and doubt in Christ , he wouldn`t mind ...BUT for your own sake do love a little...
:)

[Centauro]

Message is the core.

And message is ~Love your neighbor as yourself~Love God with all your heart ,soul ,mind and strength~

What ever people do in effort to discredit Christ in any conceivable way will just make things wrong for them since you can`t beat the message!

We hear bashing and trashing, was he there or not, did he didn`t he, an impostor ,liar,demon worshiper,NWO puppet, an ET, Maitreya ,Sananda, and might be a little Johnny from the corner...

Message still stands clear as a bright sunny day, engraved into consciousness field of eternity and us- Love your neighbor as yourself and before all Love God with all your heart,soul,mind and strength~

While we as humanity quarrel about above quoted things , our world is suffering and we along with it. Animal and plant realms are dying rapidly because of our fallen conscience and all that Christ was doing was and is lifting up our consciousness to remember that we are of God just like he is.

Now go ahead and doubt in Christ , he wouldn`t mind ...BUT for your own sake do love a little...



Thank you for your beautifully put point Baren....

Here is another thing that I don't understand....

As far as I know he is the only one in history who accomplished that thing that you all talk about here and want... A complete and total ascension in to a higher estate of being, physically and spiritually by the resurrection of his body (I call it spontaneous evolution) .

Isn't that what we all want?
Then why deny the story and the message?
Has any other man in history died for all us to show us by example on what needs to be given?

Please enlighten me ? :)


Roland

[58andfixed]

Thanks for collaborating on this thread Beren:

That message is the one most often repeated and seems to drown out another message that brings to bear a much elevated standard, ignored or forgotten for some reason.

John 13:34 (KJV) "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." aka the WWJD idea.

This reference suggests a more humbler approach of ones' judgment of self, and what to expect of ones' own level of tolerance or self-expectation for a standard of morals and ethics.

Maybe the subjective level of my (our) quality of standard creates division, and if humbly approaching what to do to another was a standard I required to explore, study and contemplate to discover the quality of a Master, perhaps my judgment may come to a slower conclusion ?

I find it odd that the "average Christian" most often refers to the lower standard "as you would expect yourself to be treated," versus the rarely refereed to "As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

The next question could be: "are Church Authorities cherry picking through a Bible to deceive the congregation of a lower standard of acceptance - a malevolent intent, or mere theological ignorance" ?

I'm interesting in adding this seemingly forgotten passage to resurrect an awareness of the higher standard set by Jesus, one of many Masters.

I believe as a non-Church going, anti-Organized Religionist, anti-Biblical reliant, fully accepting of a First Source, truth seeker and desiring the erasing of division among ourselves, that this is a key discernment.

To fulfill my self-description in terms that could be commonly understood, I refer to my belief as Gnostic.

I'd be interested in your feedback.

- 58





And message is

~Love your neighbor as yourself~

Love God with all your heart ,soul ,mind and strength~

[Centauro]

Can't resist but to post again hehe....

Posted by 58andFixed

Where do you believe "evil" comes from, and why do you believe "evil" exists ?
I'm curious to see any references of "hell," including books outside of any Bible, to sustain your perspective as well.
Personally, "hell" doesn't fit in with a First Source that is loving and trusts us to make uncoerced Free Will Choices.

I tend to believe that at the time of creation or big bang or whatever you wanna call it, all opposites were created as well. Why do I say this? Well look at the universe Light/Dark - Matter/Antimatter - Creation/Destruction Good/Evil etc. and also that anything is possible in this universe of ours. Don;t we imagine and create all the time? Look at art for example.

As far as Hell is concern, you are right 58andfixed, it doesn't fit with the first source at all. But to me Hell is not a place that you are sent to for the "punishment of your sins". Hell is also a estate of being that anyone can choose to go to because of our free will. Christ did talk about it a few times, but I believe he was referring at that choice. One has to be very careful with the bible because all the translations and the manipulations that were done to it by the so call church around 300A.D. and in the middle ages in order to manipulate the masses. History is full of them.

If a person chooses to be destructive, evil, enjoying the hurt he/she inflicts on others, then that is the estate of being that he/she will have forever, and not because a punishment from the source.

Well this is my view


Roland el Centauro

[panopticon]

Here is another thing that I don't understand....
As far as I know he is the only one in history who accomplished that thing that you all talk about here and want... A complete and total ascension in to a higher estate of being, physically and spiritually by the resurrection of his body (I call it spontaneous evolution) .
Isn't that what we all want?
Then why deny the story and the message?
Has any other man in history died for all us to show us by example on what needs to be given?
Please enlighten me ? :)


G'day Centauro,

I'm short on time at the moment so please excuse my brevity.
In the "immortality traditions (http://all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html)" of Daoism the practice of attaining similar as what is represented in the biblical stories by the Christ figure is well known.
Similar practices are also known within Buddhist traditions (notably some Tibetan sects use dzogchen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen) (atiyogic) practices to attain the "rainbow body (http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Rainbow_body)") amongst others.
An interesting article comparing the Daoist Immortality tradition and the Christian transfiguration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus)/resurrection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_Jesus)/ascension (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascension_of_Jesus) tradition is found here (http://taoism.about.com/od/immortality/a/Immortality.htm).

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Daughter of Time]

Christ is a consciousness and Jesus was the embodiment of such consciousness. Thus, Jesus Christ!
His message to this very troubled planet he decided to visit for while, was to become aware, to forgive and to love.

[58andfixed]

Thanks for collaborating Roland:

My simplest perspective, after very much examination, is that "hell" isn't a place so much as the consequence of a choice made in ignorance - in the lower-case sense of 'truth.'

I believe it helps to explain why some people experience NDE "hell," and others a welcoming "tunnel of light."

Now, if there are consequences in the much larger sense, as in "Truth" as set by a "Universal Tribunal," there could very well be eternal consequences for a soul -- however, on the reasonable speculation that eternal consequences are not permitted to be made in ignorance, I don't think it unreasonable to plead "mens rea" [lack of evil intent] at that point. At least I did more than prefer denial, and avoided the effort to become aware.

I believe that the further down the path of eternity we all go, there will be less room to deny what cannot be proven, and every mortal will be given multiple chances to cease their ignorance.

The question that arises for me, is that after some soul has been granted some huge amount of forgiveness, and still choose 'evil,' what then ? Extinction of that soul ? --- I don't *know* that either, however would be a reasonable speculation in a Universe that is organized in a just way. I very much doubt pits of eternal pain and revenge.

This 'great latitude' is the root of evil & injustice. There may be some kind of reward for having endured injustices -- however, that isn't anything that I can say I *know.*

I'm more concerned about my contribution towards an aware and functional civilization here and now, to do the best I can, and take effort to be aware. So my contributions need to be well studied if they are to be of any value to by fellow sisters and brothers, not simple casual opinions.

The "hell" used by Organized Religion seems to me to be contrived for the frightening of the plebes into the pews for the purposes of collecting tithes, and permitting the giving up of our sovereign authority over our free will, in deference to some authority as the 'truth.'

This is my oversimplified version. I have no evidence for my belief, other than a studied approach to various writings available to all, and my personal challenge is to vet the ideas available to a point that I have a clear basis for the way I will live life.

- 58


As far as Hell is concern, you are right 58andfixed, it doesn't fit with the first source at all.

But to me Hell is not a place that you are sent to for the "punishment of your sins".

Hell is also a estate of being that anyone can choose to go to because of our free will.

If a person chooses to be destructive, evil, enjoying the hurt he/she inflicts on others, then that is the estate of being that he/she will have forever, and not because a punishment from the source.

Roland el Centauro

[Centauro]

Hey thanks for the response to my last post 58and Fixed, I agree completely to what you said... read it twice and makes a lot of sense as well. I could no find anything the contrary to what my views are.

Thanks again

Roland el Centauro

[58andfixed]

Thanks for the feedback Roland.

I have been known to pontificate, and for this thread I've erred on the side of 'extra' -- a delicate topic indeed.

Would like to encourage independent critical examination, cleaned up of rhetoric, as best I can --- reflecting the best that I could discern over my decades of effort.

- 58



read it twice and makes a lot of sense as well.

[RedeZra]

I see no glory in the God you revere.


i see Satan ruling our world in this Age because Adam and Eve let him

and i see 6000 years of bloody history


i see Satan as the Controller of controllers and the Head of high society

and we all have been brought up to believe lies


i see Jesus Christ as the Creator on the Cross on a soul rescue mission

so those that trust in Him may not perish at the end of the Age

[panopticon]

i see Satan ruling our world in this Age because Adam and Eve let him
and i see 6000 years of bloody history
i see Satan as the Controller of controllers and the Head of high society
and we all have been brought up to believe lies
i see Jesus Christ as the Creator on the Cross on a soul rescue mission
so those that trust in Him may not perish at the end of the Age

G'day RedEzra,

I'm sorry but I'm having difficulty following your logic.

Are you saying that the Bible is a divine text written by prophets anointed in the name of YHWH and as such is an accurate representation of historical events and translation (though limited by words) of divine purpose?
Are you also saying that the 10 Commandments are the divine Law "handed" to Moses by YHWH and as such any who contravene these (that is "break the covenant") will spend an eternity burning in a sulphurous fire (Hades/Hell), spend a time in sheol or go to Gehinnom?
Finally I would ask what it is you see as being the reward in the afterlife having led a "good and virtuous" life in the light of YHWH and Jesus the Christ.

If this is not the case can you please explain your perspective further.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

G'day RedEzra,

I'm sorry but I'm having difficulty following your logic.

Are you saying that the Bible is a divine text written by prophets anointed in the name of YHWH and as such is an accurate representation of historical events and translation (though limited by words) of divine purpose?

Are you also saying that the 10 Commandments are the divine Law "handed" to Moses by YHWH and as such any who contravene these (that is "break the covenant") will spend an eternity burning in a sulphurous fire (Hades/Hell), spend a time in sheol or go to Gehinnom?

Finally I would ask what it is you see as being the reward in the afterlife having led a "good and virtuous" life in the light of YHWH and Jesus the Christ.



hi panopticon

i know it's not exactly what we've been thought in school for the last 300 years or so

but why believe the establishment when you see the liars they are


yes i believe the Bible is true and factual and mostly written or dictated by the Holy Spirit through the pens of men


the Ten Commandments are for us to know what is right and wrong and when the Israelites broke any of them back then

they had rituals of sin offerings so YHWH would forgive their sins


now we have repentance and confessions to Jesus Christ

who save souls from sins hells and satans


the point is to have a living relationship with God while we live in this world governed by Satan

[panopticon]

i know it's not exactly what we've been thought in school for the last 300 years or so but why believe the establishment when you see the liars they are yes i believe the Bible is true and factual and mostly written or dictated by the Holy Spirit through the pens of men the Ten Commandments are for us to know what is right and wrong and when the Israelites broke any of them back then they had rituals of sin offerings so YHWH would forgive their sins now we have repentance and confessions to Jesus Christ who save souls from sins hells and satans the point is to have a living relationship with God while we live in this world governed by Satan.

G'day RedeZra,

Thank you for the response.
You forgot to answer this question:
What do you anticipate the afterlife to be like for those who dwell in Heaven with YHWH?

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Centauro]

I believe that the world was a paradise once, and humans lived in a world without fear of death, I also believe that someone or something f^*^ up our DNA, the bible says it was Satan ( falling of man) , I think there is more to that story for sure. crap forgot why I put this on this thread, sorry if it don't belong ...hehehe


Roland el centauro

[Beren]

I believe that the world was a paradise once, and humans lived in a world without fear of death, I also believe that someone or something f^*^ up our DNA, the bible says it was Satan ( falling of man) , I think there is more to that story for sure. crap forgot why I put this on this thread, sorry if it don't belong ...hehehe


Roland el centauro


If you examine what is written in current Bible is that man was :
1. perfect in body and soul
2. had everlasting life
3. no sickness whatsoever ,physical or mental
4. ability to tune in to high frequencies and understand animal kingdom aswell as plant kingdom
5. ability to openly talk with Creator
6. on high level of conscience without realization of the body nakedness (it was perfect and not shameful to look upon)
7. was beyond good and evil for it didn`t exist in his and hers world for they were in state of bliss or oneness with all that is
.
.
.

All that is lost. Hence Christ`s arrival to return mankind to that first estate and even higher.
Really that`s it.
"Fallen ones" are among else WE.

P.S.
old testament is a chronology of how to return a man from deeply disturbing primitiveness into oneness with God.
All their deeds and sacrifices were NOT asked by God ,they were allowed for they desire to do that in their fallen understanding what would be appealing to God.
God allowed it but then after some time Christ came to say :"It`s ok now, stop that and grow up, leave primitiveness and grow in oneness and Love."

When you honestly and carefully look upon you will see a process of returning mankind to its former glory. It was bloody and dirty but is it better now?

We type on computers and eat steaks and drink French wines and our brothers and sisters die of malnutrition somewhere in this world...
More people are being killed daily by greed and sheer evil than then.

SO instead of cherry picking from Bible and accusing ,it`s better to look the whole picture in it. It`s a holy book,just as many are holy too for God used many ways to bring people back.

If you don`t understand it or never read it or got hurt by religions in the name of God - please don`t spit on it. God is not the one to blame for deeds of free will of church men. They kill and steal and rule over mankind in the name of God but can`t you see that FREE WILL is allowing them that?

We are allowing them that too.

How can we blame our Father for giving us the most magnificent gift of free will?
DO we blame him for making us in his image - Gods ourselves?

DO we not realize that we are creators in making?
Universes are waiting to be born from us , so let us grow up. Let us be Love ,just like our heavenly Creator is .

[RedeZra]

What do you anticipate the afterlife to be like for those who dwell in Heaven with YHWH?


i relate to God in the Name and Form of Jesus Christ who is Spirit


the earth is soon to go through a trial by fire which is the wrath of God and the end of an Age

those that make it to heaven will live on like spirits and see a new earth form and a new man and woman in another Age

and so it goes and we are alive with our Lord God in heaven

like the angels whom we are

[Centauro]

If you examine what is written in current Bible is that man was :
1. perfect in body and soul
2. had everlasting life
3. no sickness whatsoever ,physical or mental
4. ability to tune in to high frequencies and understand animal kingdom aswell as plant kingdom
5. ability to openly talk with Creator
6. on high level of conscience without realization of the body nakedness (it was perfect and not shameful to look upon)
7. was beyond good and evil for it didn`t exist in his and hers world for they were in state of bliss or oneness with all that is
.
.
.

All that is lost. Hence Christ`s arrival to return mankind to that first estate and even higher.
Really that`s it.
"Fallen ones" are among else WE.

P.S.
old testament is a chronology of how to return a man from deeply disturbing primitiveness into oneness with God.
All their deeds and sacrifices were NOT asked by God ,they were allowed for they desire to do that in their fallen understanding what would be appealing to God.
God allowed it but then after some time Christ came to say :"It`s ok now, stop that and grow up, leave primitiveness and grow in oneness and Love."

When you honestly and carefully look upon you will see a process of returning mankind to its former glory. It was bloody and dirty but is it better now?

We type on computers and eat steaks and drink French wines and our brothers and sisters die of malnutrition somewhere in this world...
More people are being killed daily by greed and sheer evil than then.

SO instead of cherry picking from Bible and accusing ,it`s better to look the whole picture in it. It`s a holy book,just as many are holy too for God used many ways to bring people back.

If you don`t understand it or never read it or got hurt by religions in the name of God - please don`t spit on it. God is not the one to blame for deeds of free will of church men. They kill and steal and rule over mankind in the name of God but can`t you see that FREE WILL is allowing them that?

We are allowing them that too.

How can we blame our Father for giving us the most magnificent gift of free will?
DO we blame him for making us in his image - Gods ourselves?

DO we not realize that we are creators in making?
Universes are waiting to be born from us , so let us grow up. Let us be Love ,just like our heavenly Creator is .


Dear Baren,

As always I completely agree with you and as always you make see things that I didn't see before. Pleas never stop. Your eloquence and the ability to see and to forward what you see is a gift that has value beyond anything. It is so clear to me why Christ came to earth... the logic behind that is impossible to deny, no matter how many arguments are made to deny its validity.

Again thank you for such inspiring words


Love much to all

Roland el Centauro

Please never stop

[Centauro]

i relate to God in the Name and Form of Jesus Christ who is Spirit
the earth is soon to go through a trial by fire which is the wrath of God and the end of an Age
those that make it to heaven will live on like spirits and see a new earth form and a new man and woman in another Age
and so it goes and we are alive with our Lord God in heaven
like the angels whom we are

Dear RedeZras,

Please forgive me, but I just can see the logic behind your words and statements. I Can't see God or Christ as a Gods of destruction and vengeance. They are creators and no destructors. That wrath that you talk about if it happens or whatever, is going to be not because punishment from god. I know, I know the bible talks about that just about in very other chapter, I don't buy for a second. The Bible has been manipulated so many times that it is almost impossible to take its words at face value. The only thing that is valid to me from this so called "Holy Book" is Christ message of Love, Kindness and Forgiveness to all. All the events that had happened or will happen here on earth are because of the choices we make or will make. Free will explains this with no other argument as for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.

I do however agree with you in that Satan ( whatever he is or whatever he represents) is what rules the world hence the logic behind of God's plan of redemption buy sending his personification in Christ to us

Roland el Centauro