how many are hypocrites?

[blake]

Hello All,

I don't know how anyone defines a hypocrite, but the Webster dictionary defines it as: "a person who pretends to be what he or she is not, one who pretends to be better than is really so. "

Whereever I go, people complain about the banks, and yet they feed the beast by using its services and rationalizing why they need to patronize the beast. The below article states as many writers have written before to STOP USING THE BANKS. I am in agreement that anyone protesting the banks and wallstreet, and yet uses their services, are cowardly hypocrites. The common human simply has to stop feeding the beast to get results. So as YOU look in the mirror, what is your rationalization for writing out checks, and using electronic banking? If you don't like the fraud of modern banking practices, why are you aiding and abeting their crimes by using their services? Or are banks, to the average human, just like celebrities and royalty are, no matter how corrupt they are, humans bow down to them in awe. So are you one of the many hypocrites "occupying" some city.
Where is your strength? It is always in the pocket book. Take your business away from the banks.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis


.........."The only practical strategy for combating the tyranny of centralized systems has been and always will be decentralization. Individuals must stop relying on the rules of a rigged game to see them through to the truth. This means that while mass protests are certainly a powerful tactic for voicing concerns on an international stage, they accomplish little to nothing in the way of meaningful change in the long run unless they are backed by individual actions to break away from dependency upon a poisoned political and economic framework.

The common assumption amongst Americans is that nothing can be done without mass action resulting in “compromise” from leadership. That the healing of our cultural dynamic is a “top down” process. That one person alone has little at his disposal for bettering the world. In fact, it is always self aware and self sustaining individuals who build better societies, not angry mobs without understanding or direction. Individuals blaze the path that the rest of the world eventually follows, and they do this through one very simple and effective act; walking away.

By walking away from the corrupt system, and building our own, we make the establishment obsolete. This philosophy could be summed up as follows:

Provide for yourself and others those necessities which the corrupt system cannot or will not, and the masses (even if they are unaware) will naturally gravitate towards this new and better way. Offer freedom where there was once restriction, and you put the controlling establishment on guard. Eventually, they will either have to conform to you, attack you, or fade away completely. In each case, you win. Even in the event of attack, the system is forced to expose its tyranny and its true colors openly, making your cause stronger.

The obvious question now is; how can each one of us use this strategy in our daily lives? Here are just a few easy applications:

1) Focus On The Federal Reserve

If you as an activist or the movement you support are not fully aware of the private Federal Reserve Bank and its primary role in the destruction of our economy, our currency, and our political dynamic, then your protests are a waste of time, and your movement will end in failure. Uneducated mass actions are easily manipulated, and can even end up serving the purposes of those oligarchs they seek to dethrone. G. Edward Griffin’s full analysis on the history of the Federal Reserve “The Creature From Jekyll Island” and similar materials should be handed to every OWS protester before it is too late.

2) Take Back Your Savings

Do you have a bank account with one of the so called “too big to fails”? Is the culmination of your savings currently in the hands of financial monstrosities like Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, etc? Well, take your money back! This has been done by a few protestors and the response from banks has been outlandishly oppressive, including new guidelines attempting to obstruct customer access to savings, and even calling the police! This tells me that they are afraid. Afraid of Americans catching wind of the idea that the money they place in the accounts of bad banks is still theirs to do with as they will. If you don’t like how these institutions operate, don’t let them have your money. It’s as simple as that. Not only is this an act of defiance that truly hurts the banking system, it also protects your hard earned wealth (at least initially) from the inevitable collapse of these fiscally insolvent blood leaching leviathans (watch Bank of America closely, folks!).

3) Use Alternative Currencies

After you take your savings away from the banks, you still aren’t quite free of their influence. You are now holding fiat dollars, which the Federal Reserve, the foundation of all banking fraud, is currently devaluing. The idea of walking away from the dollar sounds ridiculous or even frightening to those trapped in the centralization mindset, but it is a highly effective method for combating the system itself. The dollar is a sham, and has been since its future was handed over to the Fed in 1913. Alternatives exist, and they must be utilized. Communities across the country use various scripts as a means to diminish reliance on the dollar, but ultimately, the best currencies are those that cannot be created out of thin air unhindered. This means gold and silver.

Central banking proponents have been railing against even the concept of a return to gold and silver currencies for years, and the Department Of Justice has labeled the use of such alternatives in place of dollars as a form of “domestic terrorism”. This should tell you, quite clearly, that they are deathly afraid of activists organizing to drop the dollar to pursue metals. If the system is willing to use the law as a weapon to keep us from having sound money, then we should be rubbing their nose in it daily by trading without dollars. They should be forced to react, and in the process, forced to expose their true intentions for our economic futures.

4) Build Barter Networks

If a bunch of people can band together to huddle in parks with signs for weeks in cities across the nation, then they can band together to trade goods and services outside the establishment system as well. Barter networks grow spontaneously out of economic collapse regardless of what any group decides to do, but generally, they appear AFTER the worst has happened. Wouldn’t it be wiser to organize such markets now, before a full collapse takes place? By preempting disaster with a backup or failsafe free market barter economy in each town and city, we insulate ourselves from the effects of the crisis, and, we cut loose from our dependency on the controlled mainstream economy. Localized trade makes it possible to walk away from corporate chains and maintain the circulation of wealth within a community, while countering the increasingly higher taxes caused by austerity and inflation that we are likely to see in this country very soon. It really is a no-brainer.

5) Grow A Garden

I don’t know how to say this nicely; don’t be a jackass, learn to grow your own food. Don’t expect that our economy will continue to sustain you. Actually, you should have every expectation that it won’t! If every Wall Street or Fed protester had their own garden patch and some stored goods, we would all be much safer. Food dependence is the worst kind. It has been used by governments and despots for centuries to cull the masses and dissuade dissent.

Sharecropping should be common in every community. Neighborhood gardens should be standard. Every household should have a year’s worth of food. Period.

Imagine that you lose your job and every cent you have tomorrow. Imagine that mom and dad are broke and have no money to lend you. Imagine that food stamps are a thing of the past because the national debt has become so exponential that entitlement programs have been erased. Now, how do you live from day to day? Where do you get the nutrition required for you to continue holding up that sign or shouting that slogan? Think about it...

6) Start A Micro-Industry

If the U.S. economy is ever going to get on its feet again, it will be because average Americans bring it back through local industry. This means ending our community addictions to corporately produced goods and returning to specialized trade skills. It means coalitions of local farmers, craftsmen, and micro-industries providing goods and services with a city or county based market focus. Large manufacturers and business chains relying on the model of globalization will have absolutely no ability to rebuild mainstreet commerce, even if they wanted to, because their methods depend upon constant outsourcing and downsizing for survival. Private tradesmen will be the only people capable of filling the dark void these corporations leave behind.

7) Start An Activist Group

The establishment HATES when you do this. The spontaneous organizing of groups outside government or corporate purview has generated notoriously absurd responses from authorities, including accusations of “extremism”, infiltration, and wrongful arrest. If this sounds frightening, then I suggest you get over it quickly, because this is going to be the norm for many years to come. The evils of the world are not undone by apathetic naysayers anymore than they are undone by mindless mobs. Without the coordinated actions of aware individuals with a common focus, nothing is going to change.

This group could be something a simple as a local barter network or a political discussion forum, or, a complex national organization geared towards tangible political action. It doesn’t matter as long as it’s based on the promotion of Constitutional freedoms, and its leadership is decentralized. Just make it happen…

At bottom, if we want to fight back against a system we cannot take back through traditional means, then we must learn to walk away. If the system feeds us, clothes us, and shelters us at will, then ordinary protest is pointless. Our tender parts are in a rusty vice on the autocratic workbench and until we pull them out, no amount of screaming and pounding will improve our situation. Independence is won through the constant striving for self responsibility. Freedom is won through a position of personal strength, not weakness and self-enslavement.

Numbers alone do not make a movement, and the elites we currently work to supplant are not going to flinch at a few random protests. In all likelihood they will welcome these actions as a useful distraction. Tyrants don’t fear the torches and pitchforks anymore. What they do fear is balanced insight, self reliance, and exceptional force of will. A handful of men with these attributes are far more dangerous to a corrupt system than thousands of citizens driven only by insatiable anger. To overcome oppression, we must first overcome ourselves. The ability to step outside the paradigm, the ability to act without permission, and charge the gates without apprehension, is the key to toppling totalitarian systems and exposing the great lie of our age; that we cannot exist without the cage we were born into."

[Lord Sidious]

A big part of the problem is that most are like a rudderless boat, no direction.
They are not sure how to effect change without too much effort, so they just bumble on.

[Tarka the Duck]

I think the content of this thread is similar to the one entitled "Want to defeat the banks?"
Maybe the mods will choose to merge?

[blake]

I think the content of this thread is similar to the one entitled "Want to defeat the banks?"
Maybe the mods will choose to merge?



Hello Tarka the Duck,

It is amazing how stomy and I how used the same article to make a point. However, my focus is, as I have brought up many times in the past, if people are complaining about the fraud in our centralized banking system, why is it that it is more than likely that 99 percent of the Avalonians are still aiding and abetting the beast by using its services? I have little tolerance for people who complain but rationalize why they can't take action. I am curious as to how anyone can rationalize why they still are writing checks, doing electronic banking, using debit cards etc etc when they complain so loudly about the fraud. To me that is a hypocrite. That is a very harsh word to call anyone. But the problem we have is not the banking system, becasue that could easily be corrected by the majority of humans if they were not hypocrites. Most of the evil in our society stays a problem becasue of the hypocrisy of human nature, and combine that with lhuman laziness, and many humans who prefer the sweeping of uncomfortable facts under the rug, humans get the society that they deserve. It is Human Nature that is at the core of this banking fraud issue, not just the banksters themselves. The bankers couldn't have done it without you! Can anyone actually debate, logically, not emotionally that the people on this forum, who behave in a hypocritical fashion concerning banking, are they any better than the banksters themselves if they partake in the system that gives power to the very people who enslaves the majority of the population? Those who ,in this time period , writes checks, and does electronic banking etc knowing how the system works are just as corrupt as the banksters themselves in my opinion. But people don't like to look at themselves in that realistic light. They like to rationalize their contribution to the aiding and abetting of the banks. As I keep saying, human nature is the problem. Humans don't want any inconvenice; they want an easy out. Humans will blindly close their eyes to evil, if evil will give them a convenience, or add to their profits. Humans want the bankers to stop the fraud, yet they refuse to acknowledge their own part in keeping the fraud alive.

So anyone who is a hypocrite ,according to Webster's dictionary, concerning the support of the banking system, this thread is aimed at you. Unfortunately, that means 99 percent of the population. Do you think Avalonians would have a smaller percentage of humans not supporting the banking system? I think not.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[vibrations]

I am a hypocrite believe me, just look at my avatar. And His Highness the owner of the Dark star also. And many more. It's a small level of it, but in reality it's this:
"a person who pretends to be what he or she is not, one who pretends to be better than is really so. "

[13th Warrior]

My hypocrisy knows no bounds...

[blake]

I am a hypocrite believe me, just look at my avatar. And His Highness the owner of the Dark star also. And many more. It's a small level of it, but in reality it's this:
"a person who pre tends to be what he or she is not, one who pretends to be better than is really so. "

Hello Vibrations,

Thank you for your comments, but the focus of this thread is how are you a hypocrite concerning the banking system ruling this world?

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[PHARAOH]

Unfortunately for you blake; you won't make many friends here with this post. You will be attacked, scorned, riduclued and insulted to say the least. I love the thread and agree. Thanks for speaking the truth.

[Gardener]

Yes Blake I for one agree with you, I am also one of the hypocrites. And I agree that it would be really hard to extricate oneself say from on-line transactions, amazon for example and donations via paypal yea it goes on and on we are knotted into a hugh trap. I am old enough to remember getting my 'wages' in cash in an envelope, and counting it at the corner where the notes peeeped out. Now everything is paid into financial institutions, salaries, pensions etc. Do we have any choice or way round, idk.

One thing the banks are terrified of is a 'run on the bank' it is the one thing where we do have some power. Plus there are other institutions which are not as connected to banks, we use a 'building society' where profits go back to account holders. Also Asian communities run their own banks around here, even within families, that are not tied to anything. There are other ways.

We have been so atomised in our little boxes we have lost community, and every house has to have one of everything it boosts GDP, rather than a commmunity sharing.

There is one thing I envision a society of many societies, built around small groups of say two hundred integrated and functioning people, all pulling together, it could be self financing, self regulating, and have members in all the skills. then the prospect of a new form of energy can come forward unhindered.

Getting there may depend on a complete and utter breakdown in the financial institutions.

Banks in their current form evolved during the slave trade, they set up shop along the dockside in Liverpool UK as slave ships came in, the slaves were sold and shipped out again. They needed someone to take safe care of their money!!! And interest charging 'usury' was not permitted by christians, they needed someone to run this side of it, the talmud had no such rule so the jewish people ran that side of things, I think it is pretty much the same today. Anyway that is an aside....

Its root were rotten and it hasn't changed.

best wishes
g

[Jay]

The beast is the master of condescension (inter alia). It's no wonder the majority fall into hypocrisy.
It was said/written hundreds of years ago "Who can fight the beast?"
Maybe it's those of us who eat without feeding the global corporates (i.e. no more M&Ms, McDonalds Burgers or Kentucky Fried Chicken). While we are about cutting out the banks - we must cut out the elite pharma industry, hummers and Corn Flakes. :biggrin1:
Thanks for tips but for the time being TPTB have most of us in a rudderless boat (and, shamefully - they love it :( )

[the trojan]

Me me me!
I am a hypocrite.

[blake]

My hypocrisy knows no bounds...

Hello 13th Warrior,

If that is true, how very sad for you, your family, your friends, your community, your country. If that is true, then you are not a warrior. If that is true, you would never recognize the light of goodness , or have the courage to actively support that goodness in any bonafide way. If that is true, I sincerely send you healing energy so that you will not casue so much pain in the world, and instead help you to connect with goodness on a daily basis.

So, 13th Warrior, considering your post, I can assume you actively support the banks by using their services?

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[grapevine]

I - I am a hypocrite. I eat meat and yet I can't bear the farming methods that bring it to my plate. :(

[crosby]

perhaps many people feel that they are not in the inner circle of the trouble with the TBTF's. they separate the smaller banking institutions from the 'too big too fail' pantheon and get up every day and do their normal routine. which includes going to work, buying groceries, taking care of their families, etc. the majority of people just can't stop working, go out and protest, close their bank accounts. it would be cool if they could. most employers will not issue a pay check unless you have direct deposit. now, whether you let your funds sit in your account to be used by the bank is another question. times are changing, more people that can protest are, and more people are waking up..... some if not most average americans are just now getting their feet wet with what is actually happening. and believe it or not, there are the people who receive ssi/ssd - welfare; they are not going to do anything to jeopardize what they have coming in. imagine the number of people who are receiving these services under falsehoods: they are definitely not going to do anything. they don't care if they're called hypocrits.......

some people just can't stop doing their lifes' business because of what they're reading in the press or seeing on television. they find most of it an annoyance anyways.

i do agree, if everyone could/would stop catering, the walls will fall and the TBTF's will only become small memories. but, as with everything, there has to be a catalyst to prompt the majority into action.
great thread, thanks.
regards, corson

[vibrations]

I am a hypocrite believe me, just look at my avatar. And His Highness the owner of the Dark star also. And many more. It's a small level of it, but in reality it's this:
"a person who pre tends to be what he or she is not, one who pretends to be better than is really so. "

Hello Vibrations,

Thank you for your comments, but the focus of this thread is how are you a hypocrite concerning the banking system ruling this world?

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Hello,
I understand you perfectly, but my thinking goes deeper. I consider that the monetary system does not have place in an advanced society. Blaming bankers is ok, they are the lowest possible scum, but it won't help. The society has to change in it's core, the value of any individual is the same as the other people value. MD does the exactly same job as carpenter does. Architect has no more value than simple builder. The house is not there if any of them is not finishing their job. We tend to hang on old values, and by my opinion it's wrong. If there is no one who knows cooking, architect or lawyer or whatever can starve to death. This is my humble point and sorry, I didn't mean to undermine your valuable expose.

[Lettherebelight]

Does anyone get paid with cash anymore? Most employers insist on your bank details so that when they do their payroll, your wages go straight into your account. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has persuaded their employers to pay them directly rather than through the bank.

[lake]

My hypocrisy knows no bounds...


Tombstone if I'm correct?

A lot could be learnt!

[crosby]

Does anyone get paid with cash anymore? Most employers insist on your bank details so that when they do their payroll, your wages go straight into your account. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has persuaded their employers to pay them directly rather than through the bank.


where i live, it can't be done unless you are working under the table. and if that's the case, if they pay you by check, it leaves a paper trail, and you have the added insult of finding someone to cash it for you.

what i find valuable is the same day or the next after my paycheck has entered my account i take the majority of it out of the bank. i pay my rent and utilities with money orders. cash for everything else. it isn't much, but it makes me feel better.
regards, corson

[13th Warrior]

My hypocrisy knows no bounds...

Hello 13th Warrior,

If that is true, how very sad for you, your family, your friends, your community, your country. If that is true, then you are not a warrior. If that is true, you would never recognize the light of goodness , or have the courage to actively support that goodness in any bonafide way. If that is true, I sincerely send you healing energy so that you will not casue so much pain in the world, and instead help you to connect with goodness on a daily basis.

So, 13th Warrior, considering your post, I can assume you actively support the banks by using their services?

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Hello Mr. Davis,

I appreciate your concern; my comment is an exaggeration that simply states i am well aware that i am not perfect...plus i thought it a pithy statement by Doc Holiday in the move "Tombstone".

Regards

[blake]

Unfortunately for you blake; you won't make many friends here with this post. You will be attacked, scorned, riduclued and insulted to say the least. I love the thread and agree. Thanks for speaking the truth.

Hello Pharaoh,

Thank you for your comments and the compassionate warning. I haven't been posting for a while, but I have a fair amount of posts and have been following Avalon long enough to agree, especially from some of the responses so far, that you are probably correct. Lucky for me, I am not looking for friends. I am just attempting to get at least some people to look in the mirror and be honest with themselves.

Some of Avalon's threads have been rather crude. But when someone is not polite, but instead, attacks, scorns ridcules, insults or whatever nasty communicating they choose to express themselves, it is their issue to solve not mine, and adds to the problem of bringing people together. People do have a right to their perspective and opinion. But if people can not debate and share different perspectives without becoming bullies then they have ugly power issues, and are usually too insecure to be brave enough to maybe, just maybe widen their perspective and learn something. You would think Avalonains would be more evolved than your average human, but alas some of their postings and responses speaks for where they are in life.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Fred Steeves]

I reckon I'm a hypocrite too, just like everyone else to varying degrees.

Cheers,
Fred

[crosby]

I reckon I'm a hypocrite too, just like everyone else to varying degrees.

Cheers,
Fred


everyone is a hypocrite to one extent or another. we are all working on changing our lives and the lives of those that we love.
regards, corson

[Davidallany]

the fraud in our centralized banking system

I didn't know that the banking system was ours. I thought it was the cracker, and we belonged to it.

[Davidallany]

The reason for being a hypocrite is knowing the conventional rights and wrongs belonging to a matrix system on an intellectual level, thus doing what is perceived as good for oneself only. If this knowing is taken to spiritual level, then all hypocrisy vanishes, because on the spiritual level beyond any local matrix, one realizes that oneness, where there are no secrets in the collective conciousness. One can not realize onenesss by mere logic or intellect.

[jorr lundstrom]

I see it as we all are in the scene from Deerhunter where they are waiting

for the right moment to get out of the cage. Right now we are in a world

with a banking system and money, so wot. Everyone have to find his or her

right moment to get out. We can call ourselves hypocrites or wot we like.

It wount change the situation anyhow.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPi2AetitZc

[blake]

Yes Blake I for one agree with you, I am also one of the hypocrites. And I agree that it would be really hard to extricate oneself say from on-line transactions, amazon for example and donations via paypal yea it goes on and on we are knotted into a hugh trap. I am old enough to remember getting my 'wages' in cash in an envelope, and counting it at the corner where the notes peeeped out. Now everything is paid into financial institutions, salaries, pensions etc. Do we have any choice or way round, idk.

One thing the banks are terrified of is a 'run on the bank' it is the one thing where we do have some power. Plus there are other institutions which are not as connected to banks, we use a 'building society' where profits go back to account holders. Also Asian communities run their own banks around here, even within families, that are not tied to anything. There are other ways.

We have been so atomised in our little boxes we have lost community, and every house has to have one of everything it boosts GDP, rather than a commmunity sharing.

There is one thing I envision a society of many societies, built around small groups of say two hundred integrated and functioning people, all pulling together, it could be self financing, self regulating, and have members in all the skills. then the prospect of a new form of energy can come forward unhindered.

Getting there may depend on a complete and utter breakdown in the financial institutions.

Banks in their current form evolved during the slave trade, they set up shop along the dockside in Liverpool UK as slave ships came in, the slaves were sold and shipped out again. They needed someone to take safe care of their money!!! And interest charging 'usury' was not permitted by christians, they needed someone to run this side of it, the talmud had no such rule so the jewish people ran that side of things, I think it is pretty much the same today. Anyway that is an aside....

Its root were rotten and it hasn't changed.

best wishes
g

Hello Gardener,

Thanks for all that you shared. It is very difficult to side step the knot they have entangled humans in. But if you are trying to side step, trying to brain storm ways around their evil system than that is a big plus. I have never heard of a "building society" sounds interesting. But you are right, we do have other options. And it would be a good thing if people shared what they are doing to break free of the system even if the steps are just small steps to begin with. So as you come across practical options please share them.

Yes, cash was nice to get paid with. But soon cash will be illegal, it is already illegal if you have too much of it. So unless the humans start using cash for their daily transactions, they are making it ever so easy to cut that privacy and power tool from us. Everytime you write a check or use a debit card or electronic banking you are adding to the power of central banking. Everytime you decide to use cash, or a postal money order you are destroying their system. And if you take most, if not all your money, out of their banks, you will contribute to killing the system.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[blake]

The beast is the master of condescension (inter alia). It's no wonder the majority fall into hypocrisy.
It was said/written hundreds of years ago "Who can fight the beast?"
Maybe it's those of us who eat without feeding the global corporates (i.e. no more M&Ms, McDonalds Burgers or Kentucky Fried Chicken). While we are about cutting out the banks - we must cut out the elite pharma industry, hummers and Corn Flakes. :biggrin1:
Thanks for tips but for the time being TPTB have most of us in a rudderless boat (and, shamefully - they love it :( )

Hello Jay,

What you say about the pharmaceutical industry, I couldn't agree more. My perspective is that dishonest money is what helps feed that industry too. So if we take back control of the money supply, then that will weaken other monsters like the pharmacuetical industry, in my opinion. So what can the everyday human do to take down the banks which would eventually weaked the other monsters, stop writing checks, stop using debit cards, stop electronic banking, or at least wean yourself from it. Take your money out of the bank, and you will quickly see how powerful the majority can be. Practical action is necessary. Taking down the banks doesn't need large crowds of protesters. It just needs common sense everyday humans demanding cash transations as much as possible, and taking most if not all your money out of the banks. Don't look at the next human to do what you yourself can do.



Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Me me me!
I am a hypocrite.

Hello the trojan,

Is that something to be proud of that you are teaching the younger generation to model your ethics on? So I assume, by your response, that you too help enslave the majority of people by patronizing the banks?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

I - I am a hypocrite. I eat meat and yet I can't bear the farming methods that bring it to my plate. :(

Hello w1ndmill,

Thank you for your response. However, the issue of this thread is not meat, but the banking system. Are you also a hypocrite concerning the enslavement of the majority of the people by contributing to the bank's power by using the sevices of a bank, while at the same time complaining about the economy, or the fraud in the monetary system, or by actively participating in the "occupy" movement or the support of that movement?

The animal issue and the processing of meat is a huge concern, but again, it is not the topic in this thread.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

perhaps many people feel that they are not in the inner circle of the trouble with the TBTF's. they separate the smaller banking institutions from the 'too big too fail' pantheon and get up every day and do their normal routine. which includes going to work, buying groceries, taking care of their families, etc. the majority of people just can't stop working, go out and protest, close their bank accounts. it would be cool if they could. most employers will not issue a pay check unless you have direct deposit. now, whether you let your funds sit in your account to be used by the bank is another question. times are changing, more people that can protest are, and more people are waking up..... some if not most average americans are just now getting their feet wet with what is actually happening. and believe it or not, there are the people who receive ssi/ssd - welfare; they are not going to do anything to jeopardize what they have coming in. imagine the number of people who are receiving these services under falsehoods: they are definitely not going to do anything. they don't care if they're called hypocrits.......

some people just can't stop doing their lifes' business because of what they're reading in the press or seeing on television. they find most of it an annoyance anyways.

i do agree, if everyone could/would stop catering, the walls will fall and the TBTF's will only become small memories. but, as with everything, there has to be a catalyst to prompt the majority into action.
great thread, thanks.
regards, corson

Hello Corson,

Your points are very real ,and ones that the majority of people probably can relate too. It is a crime, in my opinon, when a company refuses to give you a check and demands direct deposit. But we have to remember that we all allowed that to happen by our percieved helplessness, or laziness, or bad habits that humans tend to have. And, as you are well aware, soon we won't even have direct deposit but something a lot more sinister, and we will allow that to happen too. So while we still can use cash, in a case like that, I would withdraw every penny, in cash, as soon as it was deposited into the account. I suppose using a local bank is better than using the monster banks, yet the smaller,local banks still use the same corrupt system, so even if it feels better, you are still contributing to the enslavement of society.

I don't believe in public protests. I think it is a waste of time and resources. I beleive in quiet, informed, private action. The protests are only good if it brings awareness that private action is necessary. Action is the key word. Protest without action is an empty threat against the bad guys and they know it!

Yes, corson, we all go about our daily life, but it sounds like you go about it by keeping as little money in the bank as possible. I sure hope you don't have a credit card, or write checks or do electronic banking.

I understand that those who make a living with the internet and electronic transactions are caught between a rock and a hard place, becasue how can they make a living without contributing to the enslavement of society? So they rationalize what they do, or they don't care about what they are doing, or they stick their heads in the sand hoping SOMEONE ELSE will find a solution to this nasty system that we all swim in.

So many good community based bookstores going out of business but the online bookstores are thriving. People all want community, but do they support their community business? Obviously not or our local bookstores wouldn't be closing. But, sorry that is another thread. Maybe the online stores can have mail in payments with postal money orders. It will slow the pace down, slow the profits down, but what are your priorties if you have such a business? What are your ethics? Ever talk to someone who makes a living becasue of perpectual war. Their paycheck depends on war. I was tallking to a lovely young woman the other night. if the wars stop, she is out of a paycheck. I assured her she was bright enough to earn a living without perpetual war, and all the nasties involved with that. She seems to think she couldn't have a paycheck over a hundred thousand without war. Is war good? Do you want to contribute to war to keep the money machine working? Well, the same thing has to be asnwered by those who have choosen to make their living through the assistance of pay pal and electronic banking. Either you want to be free, or you are prepared to be a slave, and that includes being prepared to enslave your children.

Humans need to start THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX TO STOP FEEDING THE BEAST THAT IS ENSLAVING THEM, while they go about the activities of their daily lives. For those who started earlier, its not as difficult as for those who are waking up late. But in one's everyday life, one must develop habits that put them on the road to freedom and not enslavement. And simply to stop writing checks is so simple, in the fight against tryanny.

I don't beleive we need everyone to become aware, just that critical mass they talk about. And I beleive we alreay have that critical mass, unfortunatey the majority appear to be hypocritcs concerning the banking situation. Such a pity. for you, for me, for our children. I am wondering what steps everyone could do to at least stop using the banks a little less than they did before they read this thread. Going cold turky on purchases at Wal mart is sometimes painful for some humans, so some wean themselves by only spending half of what they use to spend, and they keep cutting the amount down until they completely wean themselves off wal mart. How long would it take the average human to wean themselves off banking services and electronic transactions? I think a good way to start, after withdrawing all your funds from the bank, is to simply refuse to write any checks! Cash and postal money orders only!

Sincerley,
Mr. Davis

[blake]

I am a hypocrite believe me, just look at my avatar. And His Highness the owner of the Dark star also. And many more. It's a small level of it, but in reality it's this:
"a person who pre tends to be what he or she is not, one who pretends to be better than is really so. "

Hello Vibrations,

Thank you for your comments, but the focus of this thread is how are you a hypocrite concerning the banking system ruling this world?

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Hello,
I understand you perfectly, but my thinking goes deeper. I consider that the monetary system does not have place in an advanced society. Blaming bankers is ok, they are the lowest possible scum, but it won't help. The society has to change in it's core, the value of any individual is the same as the other people value. MD does the exactly same job as carpenter does. Architect has no more value than simple builder. The house is not there if any of them is not finishing their job. We tend to hang on old values, and by my opinion it's wrong. If there is no one who knows cooking, architect or lawyer or whatever can starve to death. This is my humble point and sorry, I didn't mean to undermine your valuable expose.

Hello Vibration.

Thank you for sharing. This is a bit off topic but I agree with much of what you wrote. To me, without people training to be good cooks or bakers, what a drab world this would be. We all do important work and all should rewarded for the industry that we have choosen to serve our community with. Throw the hierarchy of professions out! All professions are needed to have a safe, comfortable, enjoyable community. In my opinion good cooks and good muscians are worth their weight in gold, a banker working in a dishonest monetay system has less then no value. The playing field of life needs to be leveled. The only way I know how to do that is to support my local baker, my local bookstore, my local markets and shun banks, and big business. I sincerely wish people would spend less time talking about the nightmare system we live in and instead take concrete action to make choices to daily support and connect with goodness, and to disconnect with tryanny. I can grow my own food. I can support my local farmer, but I can also always use cash and refuse to write any checks and withdraw my funds from the banks. I don't have all the answers, but one thing I know for sure, bring down the banks and the average human, no matter what they do for a living will have more of a chance to be compenstated for their true worth.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[NancyV]

Your conclusion that one who uses banking services is a hypocrite is basically a flawed and inaccurate statement based on a non holistic and limited outlook. It is your view and judgment, but not mine. You get to play this game here on earth any way you choose to play it. You get to choose what is good and evil for you. You get to choose what is important to you, but no matter how hard you try to impose your chosen beliefs on others and get them to agree with you there will always be many with different ideas and judgments.

I do not accept the shame and guilt you are implying one should feel for using banks. This is how our present social and economic structures here on planet earth are set up at the moment. I have no problem using banking services as long as they are around. If the system changes or falls apart... I will adapt. There are many things I consider to be a lot more important than getting my panties in a bunch worrying about what's going on with banks and bankers.

I see and understand what is going on but I won't be spending my time and energy participating in protesting banks. I neither support nor condemn them. They are just one facet of this reality matrix we're living in now. Of course I see how the wealthy elite use banks as a method of control. I see the greed, the corruption and the usurious practices. This goes on in all large industries, in governments and even in small businesses. The problem is people...not banks, not governments....corrupt and greedy humans. Good luck attempting to change human nature.

I use and will continue to use banks as a tool of convenience without one bit of guilt, so I am not a hypocrite in this area.

[another bob]

I use and will continue to use banks as a tool of convenience without one bit of guilt, so I am not a hypocrite in this area.

Greetings, Friend!

I like the credit card checks they sent me with nominal fees and no interest due until late December, 2012. They've enabled me to fully stock up and complete all my preparations for the coming economic collapse of the banks that issue such checks.

Blessings!

[Lord Sidious]

I am a hypocrite believe me, just look at my avatar. And His Highness the owner of the Dark star also. And many more. It's a small level of it, but in reality it's this:
"a person who pretends to be what he or she is not, one who pretends to be better than is really so. "

Not one atom of pretending on my side of the forum, let me tell you.
I never have, there is no need for me to do so.

[58andfixed]

It is a touchy topic indeed, forcing a look into a mirror.

For me, there was a recognition some time ago, however societal changes are quite different than individual changes.

For a personal change, first one needs to become aware of a different way, then recognize how the present way is desired less that the alternate, and then the process of change is underway.

For a societal change, simply making an individual change doesn't manifest a change in the system.

Sometimes the best next step is something akin to what we do here on PA, which is sharing and growing in awareness.

Then, such as happened with OWS, as one gains a sense that others will participate, "suddenly" there gather quite a few who participate in the change.

Catherine Austin Fitts has been offering alternative options, with good explanations for people not familiar with the Financial Structure, going back years in time.

http://www.askbutwhy.com/2009/03/catherine-austin-fitts-fraud-and.html

"Move to a small and local bank."

I believe without people knowing it is what they are doing, I believe this process is ongoing -- the process of learning, understanding, and watching for signals from others jointly participating in making a change in a similar time-frame, for a much larger effect on the system.

Let's go easy on ourselves. There are a lot of things we are participating in that causes many grief, and we are mostly ignorant [simply not aware -- not an issue of how smart we are].

We shall get to a better point.

Dialog & collaboration are necessary steps for changes that encompass more people.

Yes, I have been and continue to be a hypocrite, however I have 'switched on my patience mechanism,' and have been participating in cultivating awareness in other people for some time.

I must say, for the number of people that I could chat with like this 10 years ago, it seemed like very hollow sounding halls when the few gathered. Now, it's much more of a 'gathering.' :)

A lot of progress has been made.

- 58

[mosquito]

As Corson said - most people are too busy tending to the need of their loved ones to be able to fully ditch the system, so most of us are probably not living the way we'd truly like to.

One question for you Blake (or Mr Davis as you rather pretentiously call yourself) : Do you still pay tax to your corrupt, murdering government ?
If, as I suspect the answer is "yes", that makes you a hypocrite too.

The majority of people on this forum still support their government financially, but I'm not accusing them of hypocrisy as I fully understand that everyone makes the best decision they can under the circumstances, and not everyone is either able or willing to uproots and stick their fingers up at the government of their homeland, as I've done. But that's fine, that doesn't make them hypocrites in my book. So maybe you ought to look at yourself and your life before you start criticising the people here.

[grapevine]

I - I am a hypocrite. I eat meat and yet I can't bear the farming methods that bring it to my plate. :(

Hello w1ndmill,

Thank you for your response. However, the issue of this thread is not meat, but the banking system. Are you also a hypocrite concerning the enslavement of the majority of the people by contributing to the bank's power by using the sevices of a bank, while at the same time complaining about the economy, or the fraud in the monetary system, or by actively participating in the "occupy" movement or the support of that movement?

The animal issue and the processing of meat is a huge concern, but again, it is not the topic in this thread.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis


I take your point Mr D but a hypocrite is a hypocrite. I go out to work - some days I work like a dog - to bring home the readies to feed, clothe and support my family AND TO PAY OFF CRIPPLING CREDIT CARD DEBT. My money goes straight into a bank account and then straight out again. I cannot see that not doing this and starving my family and living on the street will benefit them at all, so yes, I am a hypocrite.

[crested-duck]

Unfortunately I find myself, along with many others, stuck having to use the bank system. If no bank account-no electronic deposit-no funds to survive ! That being said, here's my solution: the very day it's put in the account I remove all but $1.00 and use only cash . If I need to buy something on internet I'll deposit enough to cover transaction and then use debit card. That's my way of rebelling the system and making myself feel good-but I conciously know that I'm still a hypocrite to a small extent not by choice but by necessity.

[blake]

Does anyone get paid with cash anymore? Most employers insist on your bank details so that when they do their payroll, your wages go straight into your account. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has persuaded their employers to pay them directly rather than through the bank.

Hello Lettherebelight,

I would love to hear about that too, if anyone ever succeeded doing so. Some people do still pay in cash, but they are the exception and not the rule unfortunately. Thanks for your comment


Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[blake]

My hypocrisy knows no bounds...


Tombstone if I'm correct?

A lot could be learnt!

Hello simgaz,

I am not much of a movie buff, so thanks for pointing that out.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Does anyone get paid with cash anymore? Most employers insist on your bank details so that when they do their payroll, your wages go straight into your account. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has persuaded their employers to pay them directly rather than through the bank.


where i live, it can't be done unless you are working under the table. and if that's the case, if they pay you by check, it leaves a paper trail, and you have the added insult of finding someone to cash it for you.

what i find valuable is the same day or the next after my paycheck has entered my account i take the majority of it out of the bank. i pay my rent and utilities with money orders. cash for everything else. it isn't much, but it makes me feel better.
regards, corson

Hello Corson,

If only everyone would do that, it would help quite a bit. Plus you are protecting your privacy more. And without privacy, one will never have freedom, let alone control over their money.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[blake]

My hypocrisy knows no bounds...

Hello 13th Warrior,

If that is true, how very sad for you, your family, your friends, your community, your country. If that is true, then you are not a warrior. If that is true, you would never recognize the light of goodness , or have the courage to actively support that goodness in any bonafide way. If that is true, I sincerely send you healing energy so that you will not casue so much pain in the world, and instead help you to connect with goodness on a daily basis.

So, 13th Warrior, considering your post, I can assume you actively support the banks by using their services?

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Hello Mr. Davis,

I appreciate your concern; my comment is an exaggeration that simply states i am well aware that i am not perfect...plus i thought it a pithy statement by Doc Holiday in the move "Tombstone".

Regards

Hello 13th Warrior,

Thank you for clarifying. I don't watch too many movies. We all have different ways of getting our point across. So sometimes there is a misunderstanding, as in this case, so sorry.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

I reckon I'm a hypocrite too, just like everyone else to varying degrees.

Cheers,
Fred

Hello Fred,

Its been quite a while since we exchanged posts. So glad you posted. Yes, it is only human nature to be a hypocrite to varying degrees, but hopefully they are few and superficial. But this thread is focused on the money issue I am wondering how much of a hypnocite you are in that department? Of course that is me thinking out loud, and I don't expect an answer. There are some people who have been engulfed by the system, like they are held hostage and can barely breath. So if they are trying to do even the littlest thing like paying in cash, then I wouldn't call them a hypnocrite. But when people have a choice to work outside the banking system but chooses to use the credit cards, the debit cards, the electronic banking, writes a lot of personal checks, pays everyone with paper, keeps the majority of their funds inthe bank, etc etc etc, and yet they are supporting "occupy wallstreet", those are who I consider the real hard core hypocrites. I think human nature is great becasue we can make choices. I am just frustrtaed by the lazy ones who love convenience over what is right. And feel so bad for the ones who so easily go after the carrots.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

the fraud in our centralized banking system

I didn't know that the banking system was ours. I thought it was the cracker, and we belonged to it.

Hello Davidallany,

I am not quite sure what you mean.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

The reason for being a hypocrite is knowing the conventional rights and wrongs belonging to a matrix system on an intellectual level, thus doing what is perceived as good for oneself only. If this knowing is taken to spiritual level, then all hypocrisy vanishes, because on the spiritual level beyond any local matrix, one realizes that oneness, where there are no secrets in the collective conciousness. One can not realize onenesss by mere logic or intellect.

Hello Davidallany,

I am sorry but I am having a hard time understanding your point. I consider my self to be a very spiritual person. I also am impressed when a person's spirtual persuasions allows them to be a better human in this drama of life. However, this is not a thread on spiruality; it is a thread about the banking issue. And perhaps I am not understanding what you are conveying correctly, but my working definition of hypnocrite, for this thread, appears to be different from what you are expressing. And since hypocrisy vanishes on the spiritual level, according to your post, perhaps we can keep it on the mundane level where hypocrisy has cause deep injuries, and physical difficulties for many families who often are not able to even provide a peanut butter sandwich for their family at dinner time, becasue of banking practices that may have deprived families of their money.

I beleive there is a time for spirituality, and there is a time for dealing with the dramas of life. Somehow I can't see an eight-year-old being helped by "spiritual oneness" at dinner time when his hardworking parents can't provide him dinner. And I am sure that is a gentle example considering what some children in this world are facing everyday becasue of the hypocrisy of the adults in this world.
I am sure you have great spiritual wisdom. I am wondering how you bring that spirituality into the world of money and banking in this matrix system where people have physical needs.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

I see it as we all are in the scene from Deerhunter where they are waiting

for the right moment to get out of the cage. Right now we are in a world

with a banking system and money, so wot. Everyone have to find his or her




right moment to get out. We can call ourselves hypocrites or wot we like.

It wount change the situation anyhow.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPi2AetitZc

Hello jorr lundstrom,

I understand that is a perspective and a strategy for many people. And to some extent it is true, and right depending, of course, on one's situation. Sometimes, for some people, all they can do is wait out the storm and look for their opportune moment to escape the trap. I did not see the movie you are referring to, so I may be misunderstanding your point. However, sometimes that strategy, in my opinion, is the lazy way out, or a way to rationalize a person's desire to put their head in the sand, or simply justify their lack of decent action becasue its inconvenient; especially if a person has the means to be pro active, and do their part to make a difference.

Sincerley,

Mr. Davis

[PHARAOH]

Here's one way to use the system. Sign up for direct deposit. Leave only the amount required so as not to be charged any fees. Once paid, withdraw your money. If your write checks, go to the nearest Amscot and the money orders are free. Great thing about this one is your debtors will love the fact that the money order clears alot faster then the check as it has already been paid in full. Follow??? No need to pay for checks now.

[blake]

Your conclusion that one who uses banking services is a hypocrite is basically a flawed and inaccurate statement based on a non holistic and limited outlook. It is your view and judgment, but not mine. You get to play this game here on earth any way you choose to play it. You get to choose what is good and evil for you. You get to choose what is important to you, but no matter how hard you try to impose your chosen beliefs on others and get them to agree with you there will always be many with different ideas and judgments.

I do not accept the shame and guilt you are implying one should feel for using banks. This is how our present social and economic structures here on planet earth are set up at the moment. I have no problem using banking services as long as they are around. If the system changes or falls apart... I will adapt. There are many things I consider to be a lot more important than getting my panties in a bunch worrying about what's going on with banks and bankers.

I see and understand what is going on but I won't be spending my time and energy participating in protesting banks. I neither support nor condemn them. They are just one facet of this reality matrix we're living in now. Of course I see how the wealthy elite use banks as a method of control. I see the greed, the corruption and the usurious practices. This goes on in all large industries, in governments and even in small businesses. The problem is people...not banks, not governments....corrupt and greedy humans. Good luck attempting to change human nature.

I use and will continue to use banks as a tool of convenience without one bit of guilt, so I am not a hypocrite in this area.

Hello Nancy V,

I agree that you are not a hypocrite concerning the banking system. You write that you willingly use and will continue to use a fraudulent system that has transferred (stolen) the wealth of the many to the bankrolls of the few. Just because it is legal theft, doesn’t make it clean and shiny or healthy, or that society, as a whole, has not been greatly damaged by it And I assume, since you are a member of this forum, that you are well schooled on how the system works since the monetary changes took place. I am talking about how we went from a real money, based economy, to a complete debt based, fiat system. And I am sure you understand the metaphorically razor sharp financial bleeding that this has done to so many families, especially to those who never understood what inflation is and why we have it. But since you understand all that, and still choose to use the services of the bank you are not a hypocrite. We just have different ethics. You write that you neither support or condemn the banks. I find that to be a faulty statement. If you use the banks, you are supporting them.

You convey that you feel no guilt in using the current banking system. Whatever I may write cannot make you feel guilty or not. What makes someone feel guilty is when they knowingly take an action that is contradictory to their intellectual ethics. Perhaps you are looking in the mirror and you don’t like what you see, and therefore you rationalize rationalize, rationalize. You have appeared to have let more of your emotions respond to this post than your intellect.

If it’s legal for some people to be stolen from, assuming that you believe stealing is wrong, and that stealing is a large part of the present monetary system, do you also choose to steal from those people as well, by patronizing those who do, since it is part of the present societal system? And one more question. When a company uses slave child labor to produce its goods, and because the product is something you may want, maybe because of its convenience, do you patronize that company as well? I am just trying to understand where your measure of ethics is drawn.

Human nature is the problem, I agree. But as humans, we have the tools of our mind to overcome many of the emotional rationalizations that people use to do less than ethical things. Human nature, makes it easy to fall into the trap of an undisciplined mind and lifestyle, which often results in a lack of healthy ethics. Then again, some humans simply don’t care about ethics, or they go along to get along regardless of what people are doing. Some people feel powerless to do anything about the corruption, so they rationalize…. “why not support the bad guys” since they have all the power and then let the chips fall where they may. Others may feel powerless, so they strategize that they can be like a chicken, and hide in the flock hoping someone else will be picked on, or eaten, while basking in illusionary safety as they get fed by their predators.

I would be surprised if you are not familiar with the idea that who ever controls the money, control the laws. Money, whether it is right or wrong, in the world of humans, is the foundation of all things. In this present society that we live, if you don’t have money, you can’t eat. If you can’t eat, you die. Some say that they will grow their own food, or hunt. Obviously they have not been keeping up with farming and hunting laws. Until the average folks level the financial playing field, they will have less and less choices in life. Sadly we are in a run away cart to having no choices at all, or have you not flown recently. Sometimes people can only cope with the world by not looking at reality, and yet those people usually are the first to be metaphorically hung.


So many people on Avalon preach goodness and community; but it is human nature that often keeps goodness and community from happening. How can we have goodness and community without disciplining our mind to live our ethics. Some people believe in ethics, and honoring unalienable rights. Others believes in going along, to get along thinking that they will never get eaten.

The founders of America acknowledged the issue of human nature. The acknowledgement of unalienable rights and the creation of a government to secure those rights clearly defines the foundation of American ethics. Unfortunately, the emotional rationalizations of undisciplined minds, over the decades, have eroded that ethical foundation, the same way our honest monetary system has been eroded by people willing to accept and support corruption as the norm in our montary system.

What we are struggling with today, humans have struggled with for centuries. Humans have not learned their lessons. They continue to do what is easy, and not always what is right. They continue to be hypocrites by sometimes pretending to be loving and good while they close their eyes to bad things. What is that quote…. Bad things happen when good humans do nothing. It is human nature to sweep unpleasant and inconvenient facts under the rug. It is human nature to be lazy and trade freedom for convenience, while closing their eyes and mind as to what is just around the corner. It is human nature to use the services of criminals as long as it can be somewhat whitewashed. And it appears , to me, that you might be choosing to use your human trait of rationalization to continue using a banking system, in which you knowingly are aware of all the obscene harm it is causing to the many, while you look the other way. From my perspective, as long as you willingly patronize the banks, you are choosing to close your eyes to theft and do business with criminals.


You write, “Your conclusion that one who uses banking services is a hypocrite is basically a flawed and inaccurate statement based on a non holistic and limited outlook” It would appear to me that your statement is based on emotion and not logic. Plus it is an inaccurate statement. I did not write that one who uses the banking system is a hypocrite. It is my observation, based on the Webster Dictionary definition of hypocrite, that one who knowingly does the opposite of what they preach, is a hypocrite. So anyone who complains or protests against the banks, and yet continues to use them would be, by Webster’s definition be a hypocrite. You write that you do not protest the banks, or complain about the system. You publicly wrote that you will continue to use the banking system until it falls apart. So if you read my post correctly, you would have comprehended that I didn’t mean you. I am not sure what you mean about a non holistic and limited outlook. I understand of course, what holistic means and what limited outlook means, but not in this context; could you say more about what you mean by choosing those words to express your thoughts.

When you write: “ You get to choose what is good and evil for you.”

Nancy V, I agree with that. Everyone gets to chose what is good and evil for them. From a human perspective people can convince themselves, that is rationalize, what is good and evil. Some people can chose to believe that stealing is good; that is why I think we have very different ethics. You see I don’t believe in stealing from people. Webster’s Dictionary defines stealing as : “ to take or appropriate (another’s property, ideas etc) without permission. Dishonesty, or unlawfully, especially in secret or surreptitious manner….. to get, take, or give slyly, surreptitiously, or without permission….to take or gain insidiously …theft”

I suppose some people can rationalize or choose to believe that stealing is good. Is that what you choose – at least when it is convenient? Because we can have a thread on how the banks steal from us everyday. But then you already are well schooled on that. So it would appear to me that you rationalize the theft the banks are doing, so you won’t feel bad about yourself doing business with a thieves. Of course, that is my perspective, and I am wondering how you rationalize it to be anything different? I am simply taking the definition of “steal” and applying it to how the present banking system works, that you willingly patronize.

I understand this is a predatory society. I just chose not to help the predators take what is not theirs. And I do so simply by not patronizing them. I have no need to protest. I take action by not patronizing them. Shunning is a very effective tool, as all humans know.

Humans rationalize everyday so they won’t feel bad about themselves. The tragedy happens when rationalization become the norm, casting out objectivity.

I am not attempting to change human nature. I am merely watching my own ethics like a hawk.
Unfortunately society affects all of us one way or another. So it is good to talk and communicate and share perspectives. When humans are able to side step their defensive reactions, sometimes, just sometimes, some people will get brave enough to look in the mirror and say “ what have I done, and how am I going to correct it. But that is only if they have ethics, and choose to think logically an dnot emotionally.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

I use and will continue to use banks as a tool of convenience without one bit of guilt, so I am not a hypocrite in this area.

Greetings, Friend!

I like the credit card checks they sent me with nominal fees and no interest due until late December, 2012. They've enabled me to fully stock up and complete all my preparations for the coming economic collapse of the banks that issue such checks.

Blessings!

Hello another bob,

Well, I suppose that is one survival strategy. Good luck to you.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[Sidney]

Ok, Im a hypocrite. But I don't like it and I m not proud of it. I am ashamed to be a pert of this system we call life. Some things are out of our control. (every family has different circumstances) remember that before you pounce with all of the "well you can do this or that", because no one knows what other peoples situations allow them to do.
I am awake and aware, I grow food, I am kind to people and animals, I am not mean spirited, and I would die if it meant leaving a better world for my children.

I am guilty of eating meat, (sometimes),having a bank account,and I contribute garbage to the landfills. But not a day (or hour) goes by without shame and remorse for my participation of the sickness of our beautiful earth.

My definition of hypocracy is knowing and saying something is bad, but you do it anyway.

Hypocracy ....By Proxy ..doesn't make it right.:behindsofa::sorry:

[Fred Steeves]

Here's how I see this. The more I realize just how imperfect I really am, the more I want to be encouraging to my also highly imperfect brothers and sisters on this planet. We all have our strengths, we all have our weaknesses, and we all suffer. If we want to change the tide, I think it's more productive to point out, compliment and encourage the good points in others, not belabor their bad points.

Fred steps down off of his portable soap box to grab another frosty cold Budweiser out of the fridge.:)

Cheers,
Fred

[Lochinvar]

Blake, do you protest against your government (I'm not sure which country you are in) by paying no tax at all?

[music]

Perhaps it's less about being a hypocrite, but more a matter of expediancy or practicality. I personally bank, and always have banked, with local building societies, which are a lesser evil. I would be interested to hear your suggestions as to how most people could obtain a mortgage, however, when they wish to buy a home without resorting to a bank, building society, or other large institution?

Let's think more about changing things for the better, than railing at victims of the system.

[Thinking Allowed]

Mr Davis. How old are you? 80? I am 40 now, and I don't sign off my comments as Mr Lister, which is my real surname. Is that a sign of wanting respect by signing off as Mr. Davis or am I missing a sense of irony from your post? I hope so. By the way, I agree with your message, but we all have to live inside the matrix for now. It's not practical to ask our employers to pay us in cash; that will never happen in today's society. We must think of a grander scale. But, alas, I can't think of a way to stop the power of the banks. Too many people are totally indebted to the bank (mortgage, loans,etc) to have a chance to change things. The bankers know this and that's why they have such power. Unless everybody who is indebted to the bank gives them the two fingers, we are f***ed. That needs a revoltion to start the process you desire. Who's going to be first to get things rolling? Fortunately, I have no debt, so I am all ears, but the vast majority of us are steeped so deep in debt, we need a fantastic plan so we all revolt together to make the change. Suggestions please Mr Davis (Blake).

[jorr lundstrom]

Blake wrote:

Hello jorr lundstrom,

I understand that is a perspective and a strategy for many people. And to some extent it is true, and right depending, of course, on one's situation. Sometimes, for some people, all they can do is wait out the storm and look for their opportune moment to escape the trap. I did not see the movie you are referring to, so I may be misunderstanding your point. However, sometimes that strategy, in my opinion, is the lazy way out, or a way to rationalize a person's desire to put their head in the sand, or simply justify their lack of decent action becasue its inconvenient; especially if a person has the means to be pro active, and do their part to make a difference.

Sincerley,

Mr. Davis

You do not know me, nor how I live my life, nor how I have been living my life.

You dont know my plans or anything else about me. You may call me lazy, you

may call me stupid, or deluded or anything else you like. I live my life in the best

way I can and as I suppose you are not gonna live my life for me I prefer that you

dont try to master me, as all attempts in that way are totally useless both for you

and me.

Best regards,

Jorr

[Thinking Allowed]

Mr Davis, I have re-read my last post and realized it was way too harsh. I apologize for my harsh tone and should not have posted it. I am sorry. I try not to offend, generally, but realize that my words were offensive. Jack Daniels were to blame (no, it was me!)

[blake]

It is a touchy topic indeed, forcing a look into a mirror.

For me, there was a recognition some time ago, however societal changes are quite different than individual changes.

For a personal change, first one needs to become aware of a different way, then recognize how the present way is desired less that the alternate, and then the process of change is underway.

For a societal change, simply making an individual change doesn't manifest a change in the system.

Sometimes the best next step is something akin to what we do here on PA, which is sharing and growing in awareness.

Then, such as happened with OWS, as one gains a sense that others will participate, "suddenly" there gather quite a few who participate in the change.

Catherine Austin Fitts has been offering alternative options, with good explanations for people not familiar with the Financial Structure, going back years in time.

http://www.askbutwhy.com/2009/03/catherine-austin-fitts-fraud-and.html

"Move to a small and local bank."

I believe without people knowing it is what they are doing, I believe this process is ongoing -- the process of learning, understanding, and watching for signals from others jointly participating in making a change in a similar time-frame, for a much larger effect on the system.

Let's go easy on ourselves. There are a lot of things we are participating in that causes many grief, and we are mostly ignorant [simply not aware -- not an issue of how smart we are].

We shall get to a better point.

Dialog & collaboration are necessary steps for changes that encompass more people.

Yes, I have been and continue to be a hypocrite, however I have 'switched on my patience mechanism,' and have been participating in cultivating awareness in other people for some time.

I must say, for the number of people that I could chat with like this 10 years ago, it seemed like very hollow sounding halls when the few gathered. Now, it's much more of a 'gathering.' :)

A lot of progress has been made.

- 58

Hello 58andFixed,

Nice to hear from you. Thanks for the comments. I understand that there is sometimes safety in numbers. You write, " For a societal change, simply making an individual change doesn't manifest a change in the system." I can't disagree with that generally, but I don't think it is always true. Sometimes someone speaks up, they take action, they are persistent, and that person becomes the leader to who others follow. Their individual action eventually spirals into a societal change. Perhaps if people were not so insecure in their ethics, perhaps if people were less hypocritcal, perhaps if people were less defensive, we would have more individuals willing to risk being the leaders in our communities to bring about ethical change. But getting back to the monetary system, why would any indiviual need a leader or a group of people to stop patronzing banks. In a case like that, all they have to do is use their brain and their conscience. How easy is it to just stop writing personal checks, and start using cash. Start paying people in cash for their services; most of them will just love it. And as my granddaddy use to say, " if they don't take the cash, they are either stupid or they're crooks! "

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

As Corson said - most people are too busy tending to the need of their loved ones to be able to fully ditch the system, so most of us are probably not living the way we'd truly like to.

One question for you Blake (or Mr Davis as you rather pretentiously call yourself) : Do you still pay tax to your corrupt, murdering government ?
If, as I suspect the answer is "yes", that makes you a hypocrite too.

The majority of people on this forum still support their government financially, but I'm not accusing them of hypocrisy as I fully understand that everyone makes the best decision they can under the circumstances, and not everyone is either able or willing to uproots and stick their fingers up at the government of their homeland, as I've done. But that's fine, that doesn't make them hypocrites in my book. So maybe you ought to look at yourself and your life before you start criticising the people here.

Hello mariposafe,

I agree with you when you write that many people are not living how they would like to live. And it is my opinion that the monetary system oftens stands in their way, at least on some levels. And please note that I have not talked about how to "fully ditch" the system. This thread has been aimed at not patronizing the banking system.


You write: "One question for you Blake (or Mr Davis as you rather pretentiously call yourself)". I looked up pretentiously in Webster Dictionary . It is defined as " making claims, explicit or implicit to show some distinction, importance, dignity or excellence, affectedly grand, ostentatious" Oh my, all that for just signing my name. People have different customs, different ways of doing things. I always sign my name that way. Perhaps, if we knew each other, I would sign Blake. That is how I was brought up. I never call anyone by their first names unless I know them. As to your question, that is another thread.

I didn't realize I was being critical of anyone. Perhaps the topic of not patronzing the banks just hit a personal nerve? How can I accuse people of anything who I don't know? This is just a general discussion about humans in general, and the difference between what they may say about the monetary system, and how they actually choose to act toward the system. So please do not take it personally; we are just sparing idea and opinions. Although, it appears that you are not the only one who has taken the discussion too personally. My apologies if I upset you in any way.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[58andfixed]

Thanks Blake. Valid points, and there may be some missing perspectives.

I won't and cannot cover all the alternative perspectives, however here are some.

1. Most people are not schooled in the mechanics of marginal banking, nor of the financial markets and financial instruments.

2. Individuals may be 'walking wounded,' and would have cried out for help in the past, didn't get help when then needed, and have disconnected from society.

3. Emotional issues, particularly internal head injuries [aka PTSD], and other health issues that keeps individual preferring to stay socially isolated due.

4. Social engineering devices such as the public education system and television -- choice & action are foreign concepts that people are not familiar with.

This would be but a sampling of the broad perspective of many reasons why people don't immediately come to action when Paul Revere comes riding through town.


I believe it helps to be accepting of how people are, including their reluctance for action, challenging authority, and defensiveness.

It is how people are, in contradistinction to how we would like them to be.

For people 'squeezed out of the system' the argument comes a lot easier, however there are many who are on the fringe of the system, and they are hanging on for dear life, hoping that everything will hand together, and there is tremendous peer pressure for them to segregate themselves from those who are willing to take action.

They don't know it yet, but they are soon to be on the other side of the divide. If we help prepare them for what is coming, during their process of change, they will stay in denial a far shorter period of time.

I think it more realistic to count on that a 2nd, 3rd or 4th mile is yet to be walked before the finish line is to be crossed, and prepare for surviving a longer battle, as well as prepare those that believe them to still 'have a chance' for the current system to survive and benefit them.

We can do them, ourselves, our children, our children's children, spouses of our children's children, and their friends all a favor for taking a softer, slower & longer approach.

Looking back into history is where we get the clue. They cycles have come and gone for eons. This issue isn't going to get fixed by the 5th of November.

There may be some memorable dates for some activities and actions taken, and the morning after needs to be considered.

Much can be learned from "The Art of War" where one suggestion is to be close to your friends, and closer to your enemy.

I believe understanding, patience, dialog and collaboration will go further as a tool for change than any one petition or any one action.

- 58


Perhaps if people were not so insecure in their ethics, perhaps if people were less hypocritcal, perhaps if people were less defensive, we would have more individuals willing to risk being the leaders in our communities to bring about ethical change.

But getting back to the monetary system, why would any indiviual need a leader or a group of people to stop patronzing banks.

In a case like that, all they have to do is use their brain and their conscience.

[NancyV]

Your conclusion that one who uses banking services is a hypocrite is basically a flawed and inaccurate statement based on a non holistic and limited outlook. It is your view and judgment, but not mine. You get to play this game here on earth any way you choose to play it. You get to choose what is good and evil for you. You get to choose what is important to you, but no matter how hard you try to impose your chosen beliefs on others and get them to agree with you there will always be many with different ideas and judgments.

I do not accept the shame and guilt you are implying one should feel for using banks. This is how our present social and economic structures here on planet earth are set up at the moment. I have no problem using banking services as long as they are around. If the system changes or falls apart... I will adapt. There are many things I consider to be a lot more important than getting my panties in a bunch worrying about what's going on with banks and bankers.

I see and understand what is going on but I won't be spending my time and energy participating in protesting banks. I neither support nor condemn them. They are just one facet of this reality matrix we're living in now. Of course I see how the wealthy elite use banks as a method of control. I see the greed, the corruption and the usurious practices. This goes on in all large industries, in governments and even in small businesses. The problem is people...not banks, not governments....corrupt and greedy humans. Good luck attempting to change human nature.

I use and will continue to use banks as a tool of convenience without one bit of guilt, so I am not a hypocrite in this area.Hello Nancy V,

I agree that you are not a hypocrite concerning the banking system. You write that you willingly use and will continue to use a fraudulent system that has transferred (stolen) the wealth of the many to the bankrolls of the few. Just because it is legal theft, doesn’t make it clean and shiny or healthy, or that society, as a whole, has not been greatly damaged by it And I assume, since you are a member of this forum, that you are well schooled on how the system works since the monetary changes took place. I am talking about how we went from a real money, based economy, to a complete debt based, fiat system. And I am sure you understand the metaphorically razor sharp financial bleeding that this has done to so many families, especially to those who never understood what inflation is and why we have it. But since you understand all that, and still choose to use the services of the bank you are not a hypocrite. We just have different ethics. You write that you neither support or condemn the banks. I find that to be a faulty statement. If you use the banks, you are supporting them.
Thank you, blake. I’m glad you understand that I’m not a hypocrite in my use of banks. As far as your statement that by using banks I am supporting them…well, in the same vein….when you eat any food that contains Genetically Modified Organisms then you are supporting Monsanto. If you pay taxes you are supporting a corrupt system of government and taxation and the corrupt IRS. Just about anything we do in society contributes to the way society is run. If you use the dollar or the euro or almost any currency you are also contributing to the debt based fiat system. I am not going to totally drop out of society and stop using all the tools that are there to be used. Anyone who chooses to totally opt out of everything will find it very difficult to live in this world, but anyone may do that if they wish to.

You convey that you feel no guilt in using the current banking system. Whatever I may write cannot make you feel guilty or not. What makes someone feel guilty is when they knowingly take an action that is contradictory to their intellectual ethics. Perhaps you are looking in the mirror and you don’t like what you see, and therefore you rationalize rationalize, rationalize. You have appeared to have let more of your emotions respond to this post than your intellect.
It’s difficult to feel people’s emotions in writing and in this case I am not very emotionally involved. I thought my original post was rather emotionless. I truly don’t care if anyone uses banks or doesn’t use banks, or uses banks and feels guilty because they are using a system that is corrupt so they think they are hypocritical. I don’t have any major emotions involved in people doing what they want to do. I suppose I can react with what sounds like a touch of annoyance, so maybe that’s the emotion you detected. I did laugh while reading this thread and then felt irritated as I occasionally get slightly annoyed at what I see as illogical and limited (non holistic) thinking.

If it’s legal for some people to be stolen from, assuming that you believe stealing is wrong, and that stealing is a large part of the present monetary system, do you also choose to steal from those people as well, by patronizing those who do, since it is part of the present societal system? And one more question. When a company uses slave child labor to produce its goods, and because the product is something you may want, maybe because of its convenience, do you patronize that company as well? I am just trying to understand where your measure of ethics is drawn.
If I stopped buying products from Walmart would that stop child labor in China? I understand the philosophy of protesting companies and banks you think are engaging in evil/unethical practices, but if you’re going to be honest about not being a hypocrite you would probably have to stop buying the majority of everything you buy. I’m sure we could find something evil and unethical about any large business that was selling goods; food, gas, electricity, electronics, medicines, clothing, automobiles, etc.

Your statements about banks and our usage of them seem to be based on a logical fallacy argument wherein
A. banks are bad and unethical
B. Anyone who uses a bank is supporting bad guys who are unethical
C. If you agree with A and B and feel guilty about your continued use of banks you are a hypocrite.

Regarding A: It is your opinion that banks are bad and unethical. Your opinion is not an absolute fact. I think many of us know that many banks engage in unethical practices and we also know that our debt based society is not the most ethical way to conduct our economic system, but that does not mean that all banks are completely unethical.

Regarding B: First I would have to agree with A (your opinion - not a proven fact for all banks) and I would also have to think that I could perhaps catch the disease of being unethical merely by association with others who are unethical and using tools (banking services) that may be run by unethical people.

Regarding C: Now that we feel like sh*t because we’re using a system that we view as unethical, we can feel guilty and admit we are hypocrites…thus becoming more frustrated, more angry and more disempowered!

It’s sort of like Alcoholics Anonymous! “My name is Nancy and I am a bankaholic. I cannot stop using banks because I am addicted to them but I constantly feel guilty about violating my ethics! So I am a HYPOCRITE!!” Then we could beat our chests a bit, say a few mea culpas, shed a few tears and feel a lot better for admitting our addictions and ethical failings. Hopefully we will at least get absolution for our sins. (tongue in cheek intended).

Human nature is the problem, I agree. But as humans, we have the tools of our mind to overcome many of the emotional rationalizations that people use to do less than ethical things. Human nature, makes it easy to fall into the trap of an undisciplined mind and lifestyle, which often results in a lack of healthy ethics. Then again, some humans simply don’t care about ethics, or they go along to get along regardless of what people are doing. Some people feel powerless to do anything about the corruption, so they rationalize…. “why not support the bad guys” since they have all the power and then let the chips fall where they may. Others may feel powerless, so they strategize that they can be like a chicken, and hide in the flock hoping someone else will be picked on, or eaten, while basking in illusionary safety as they get fed by their predators.
You have left out some important categories of people: those who recognize that they are infinite consciousness merely playing a temporal game here on earth and will not take sides just because someone wants them to play the game their way. Another category of people might believe that whatever we think about most or fight against most…is strengthened and made more powerful. Another category of people might think that even if we have crappy systems now, the systems that would replace them might be worse! Since you understand that human nature is the problem, what makes you think that many so called spiritually aware people won’t give into the human desire for power and control and as soon as they tear down the present system they will design one of their own that will inevitably become as or more corrupted than the one in place now?

I would be surprised if you are not familiar with the idea that who ever controls the money, control the laws. Money, whether it is right or wrong, in the world of humans, is the foundation of all things. In this present society that we live, if you don’t have money, you can’t eat. If you can’t eat, you die. Some say that they will grow their own food, or hunt. Obviously they have not been keeping up with farming and hunting laws. Until the average folks level the financial playing field, they will have less and less choices in life. Sadly we are in a run away cart to having no choices at all, or have you not flown recently. Sometimes people can only cope with the world by not looking at reality, and yet those people usually are the first to be metaphorically hung.
I agree that whomever controls the most money controls the governments and laws to a large extent. If the present system falls and the banks fail, what will you replace it with? Egypt is finding out right now that perhaps Mubarak was not as bad as what is going to replace him. over 100,000 Christians have had to leave the country since their churches are being burned and they are being attacked by Muslims now, with no one to stop the attacks. Revolution does not always bring happy outcomes because even humans who seem to have high ideals are still subject to their basic human nature unless they put in a LOT of effort to overcome it.

So many people on Avalon preach goodness and community; but it is human nature that often keeps goodness and community from happening. How can we have goodness and community without disciplining our mind to live our ethics. Some people believe in ethics, and honoring unalienable rights. Others believes in going along, to get along thinking that they will never get eaten.I have disciplined my mind to live my ethics…not your ethics, not anyone else’s ethics and I assume you do too, unless you think there is a set of universal ethics that applies to us all. I also don’t subscribe to the idea of “unalienable rights”. Your “rights” are whatever you can create, earn and are able to keep. It’s a question of personal responsibility. Try asserting your unalienable rights if you’re captured by a tribe of cannibals. We could be protesting about our unalienable rights until we turn red while getting hotter and hotter in the cooking pot.
The founders of America acknowledged the issue of human nature. The acknowledgement of unalienable rights and the creation of a government to secure those rights clearly defines the foundation of American ethics. Unfortunately, the emotional rationalizations of undisciplined minds, over the decades, have eroded that ethical foundation, the same way our honest monetary system has been eroded by people willing to accept and support corruption as the norm in our montary system.

What we are struggling with today, humans have struggled with for centuries. Humans have not learned their lessons. They continue to do what is easy, and not always what is right. They continue to be hypocrites by sometimes pretending to be loving and good while they close their eyes to bad things. What is that quote…. Bad things happen when good humans do nothing. It is human nature to sweep unpleasant and inconvenient facts under the rug. It is human nature to be lazy and trade freedom for convenience, while closing their eyes and mind as to what is just around the corner. It is human nature to use the services of criminals as long as it can be somewhat whitewashed. And it appears , to me, that you might be choosing to use your human trait of rationalization to continue using a banking system, in which you knowingly are aware of all the obscene harm it is causing to the many, while you look the other way. From my perspective, as long as you willingly patronize the banks, you are choosing to close your eyes to theft and do business with criminals.I would only need to rationalize my behavior if I agreed with your code of ethics and your arguments about what constitutes a violation of those ethics. Since I apparently have a different understanding of ethics, I willingly continue to use banking services.

You write, “Your conclusion that one who uses banking services is a hypocrite is basically a flawed and inaccurate statement based on a non holistic and limited outlook” It would appear to me that your statement is based on emotion and not logic. Plus it is an inaccurate statement. I did not write that one who uses the banking system is a hypocrite. It is my observation, based on the Webster Dictionary definition of hypocrite, that one who knowingly does the opposite of what they preach, is a hypocrite. So anyone who complains or protests against the banks, and yet continues to use them would be, by Webster’s definition be a hypocrite. You write that you do not protest the banks, or complain about the system. You publicly wrote that you will continue to use the banking system until it falls apart. So if you read my post correctly, you would have comprehended that I didn’t mean you. I am not sure what you mean about a non holistic and limited outlook. I understand of course, what holistic means and what limited outlook means, but not in this context; could you say more about what you mean by choosing those words to express your thoughts.
I stand corrected. You didn’t say that one who uses the banking system is a hypocrite but one who knowingly does the opposite of what they preach is a hypocrite. So you are right here and I was incorrect.

I am using the word “holistic” to mean a combination of a microcosmic view (earth planet banking, politics, governments, etc) and a macrocosmic view (unlimited consciousness playing a game). If you concentrate largely on the so called “negative” and unpleasant things happening here on the physical plane you may inadvertently increase their power. You may also disempower yourself somewhat because what you think about most must be attracted to you more. If you think about how powerless you are you will be more powerless. If you think you are a slave, you are a slave. If you are always sad because of all the death and destruction around you, you will often miss the love and the beauty. It's not that you need to ignore it either. You can observe what goes on, make your judgments about your preferences and remain fairly detached. “Energy goes where attention flows”.

When you write: “ You get to choose what is good and evil for you.”

Nancy V, I agree with that. Everyone gets to chose what is good and evil for them. From a human perspective people can convince themselves, that is rationalize, what is good and evil. Some people can chose to believe that stealing is good; that is why I think we have very different ethics. You see I don’t believe in stealing from people. Webster’s Dictionary defines stealing as : “ to take or appropriate (another’s property, ideas etc) without permission. Dishonesty, or unlawfully, especially in secret or surreptitious manner….. to get, take, or give slyly, surreptitiously, or without permission….to take or gain insidiously …theft”

I suppose some people can rationalize or choose to believe that stealing is good. Is that what you choose – at least when it is convenient? Because we can have a thread on how the banks steal from us everyday. But then you already are well schooled on that. So it would appear to me that you rationalize the theft the banks are doing, so you won’t feel bad about yourself doing business with a thieves. Of course, that is my perspective, and I am wondering how you rationalize it to be anything different? I am simply taking the definition of “steal” and applying it to how the present banking system works, that you willingly patronize.
That is definitely a view I agree with on a microcosmic level. It is easy for us to see that much of what the banks do looks evil to us on this human level. But there are many other levels besides this one. Not to say I won’t fight what looks like evil if it is in my face, but I won’t be searching it out in every corner and taking a stand against it. There is too much of it going on in this temporal plane of existence. A battle with banks is not one of the ones I intend to join. I would rather save my energy for battles with those who think they are controlling this matrix and not just with banks which are only a symptom of the disease…..but ultimately all the battles on all planes of existence are with SELF.

I understand this is a predatory society. I just chose not to help the predators take what is not theirs. And I do so simply by not patronizing them. I have no need to protest. I take action by not patronizing them. Shunning is a very effective tool, as all humans know.

Humans rationalize everyday so they won’t feel bad about themselves. The tragedy happens when rationalization become the norm, casting out objectivity.

I am not attempting to change human nature. I am merely watching my own ethics like a hawk. Unfortunately society affects all of us one way or another. So it is good to talk and communicate and share perspectives. When humans are able to side step their defensive reactions, sometimes, just sometimes, some people will get brave enough to look in the mirror and say “ what have I done, and how am I going to correct it. But that is only if they have ethics, and choose to think logically an dnot emotionally.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

I like your ideas and you certainly express yourself well. It’s good that you’re doing what you believe in. Even when I haven’t agreed with you in some of your past posts I always appreciate that you have your own set of ethics and that you attempt to live up to them with great passion.

Nancy :)

[blake]

I - I am a hypocrite. I eat meat and yet I can't bear the farming methods that bring it to my plate. :(

Hello w1ndmill,

Thank you for your response. However, the issue of this thread is not meat, but the banking system. Are you also a hypocrite concerning the enslavement of the majority of the people by contributing to the bank's power by using the sevices of a bank, while at the same time complaining about the economy, or the fraud in the monetary system, or by actively participating in the "occupy" movement or the support of that movement?

The animal issue and the processing of meat is a huge concern, but again, it is not the topic in this thread.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis


I take your point Mr D but a hypocrite is a hypocrite. I go out to work - some days I work like a dog - to bring home the readies to feed, clothe and support my family AND TO PAY OFF CRIPPLING CREDIT CARD DEBT. My money goes straight into a bank account and then straight out again. I cannot see that not doing this and starving my family and living on the street will benefit them at all, so yes, I am a hypocrite.

Hello W1ndmill,

The parents that go out and work day in, and day out to support their families are the unsung heros of society in my opinion. And it is familes like yours who are caught up in a corrupt monetary system who suffer the most from the corruption. Do they have bankruptcy laws in the UK to give relief from the jaws of the sharks? I wish I had answers for you, but I don't. All I can suggest, if you can, pay cash for everyting or at least as much as you are able; but I understand, in your case, you might be so trapped by the system that even that is an impossibity for you.

I wish you well. And keep the faith that life will get easier. I don't beleive you are a hypnocrite as far as the banking industry is concerened. It just sounds like you got trapped by the system. And the system is designed to trap you. That is why I think it is so important for all individuals to stop using the banks or at least stop using them as much as possible until they can wean themselves off them completely.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Unfortunately I find myself, along with many others, stuck having to use the bank system. If no bank account-no electronic deposit-no funds to survive ! That being said, here's my solution: the very day it's put in the account I remove all but $1.00 and use only cash . If I need to buy something on internet I'll deposit enough to cover transaction and then use debit card. That's my way of rebelling the system and making myself feel good-but I conciously know that I'm still a hypocrite to a small extent not by choice but by necessity.


Hello crested duck,

My hat off to you for withdrawing it all and using cash! Maybe one day you will even be able to do more.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Here's one way to use the system. Sign up for direct deposit. Leave only the amount required so as not to be charged any fees. Once paid, withdraw your money. If your write checks, go to the nearest Amscot and the money orders are free. Great thing about this one is your debtors will love the fact that the money order clears alot faster then the check as it has already been paid in full. Follow??? No need to pay for checks now.

Hello PHARAOH,

What is Amscot?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Referee]

I think we are all hypocrites from time to time. We all just realize it and try our best to adjust!

[PHARAOH]

Here's one way to use the system. Sign up for direct deposit. Leave only the amount required so as not to be charged any fees. Once paid, withdraw your money. If your write checks, go to the nearest Amscot and the money orders are free. Great thing about this one is your debtors will love the fact that the money order clears alot faster then the check as it has already been paid in full. Follow??? No need to pay for checks now.

Hello PHARAOH,

What is Amscot?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

It is a check cashing/ money lending insitution. It's big in the states.

[Lochinvar]

I'm all in favour of "action" threads rather than "idle theory" threads.

Bitcoin may provide a solution although I'm not in favour of a cashless society.

The "Crash JP Morgan buy Silver" campaign is a worthwhile one. I am with you Max Keiser.

I would say that if you are involved in one of those activities whilst protesting the banks and yet still using their services I think calling someone a hypocrite would be a bit harsh.

[Mad Hatter]

Curious about the ethics involved in promoting and advancing a methodology of bringing about a deliberate collapse of the existing system upon a largely unsuspecting and under prepared majority of people.

So if my use of the current system, whilst holding out for a smarter solution which avoids post collapse chaos for the majority, means I'm a hypocrite...I think I can live with that.

[blake]

Ok, Im a hypocrite. But I don't like it and I m not proud of it. I am ashamed to be a pert of this system we call life. Some things are out of our control. (every family has different circumstances) remember that before you pounce with all of the "well you can do this or that", because no one knows what other peoples situations allow them to do.
I am awake and aware, I grow food, I am kind to people and animals, I am not mean spirited, and I would die if it meant leaving a better world for my children.


I am guilty of eating meat, (sometimes),having a bank account,and I contribute garbage to the landfills. But not a day (or hour) goes by without shame and remorse for my participation of the sickness of our beautiful earth.

My definition of hypocracy is knowing and saying something is bad, but you do it anyway.

Hypocracy ....By Proxy ..doesn't make it right.:behindsofa::sorry:

Hello Starchild111,

In my opinion, I think it is good when we can look in the mirror and see who we really are, and what we really do, many times it is not a pretty sight. But I think that is the first step in becoming better humans and gaining a more disciplined mind so that we can wean off being hypocritcal in many areas of our life. So my hat is off to you that you are looking at yourself with a critical eye, and I hope you were, and continue to be, gentle on yourself with what you see, as you figure out, what, if anything, you want to change about your behavior, thinking, goals, relationships, situation etc. I am sorry to read that you are ashamed to be part of this system of life. I think nature is a beautiful thing and that life can be a beautiful thing if we as individuals can better disciple the hypocrisies that tend to creep into our behavior and learn to become independent thinkers rather than having our thinking controlled by society at large, which often has limted, faulty and mind controlled thinking. But I think what you really are conveying is that you are ashamed to be part of the systems of civiliazation, in which the monetary system is one. And you are so right about some things being out of control, and I think the government is out of control; but alas, that is another thread. But for sure, the monetary system, and the banks are out of control; and are nothing more than metaphorical shark infested waters.

And you are right, everyone is free to hand out advice to another because it may have worked for them, but every human, every family has not been dealt the same playing hand. So your best advice comes from your own thinking and planning, with maybe the help of understanding friends who may, but hardly always, know all the factors and challenges involved. Life is hard on so many levels, and the monetary system makes it harder.

Being guilty of eating meat is a judgement call, between you and your conscience. It is not a crime to eat meat and there are many valid points for doing so. But this thread is about the ugly results of patronizing the banking system. I don't know why you have a bank account, and that too is between you and your conscience. And only by understanding how the monetary system works since we have switched to a full fiat currency; and how that switched has stolen the weath and the security of the many, by the banks, to the few,is something you may be wise to ponder. The monetary system today is meant to trap the majority of people financially; so the banking and monetary systems today are designed to takes choice away from most Americans and control what they can or cannot do. So you, sadly, may already be in a position where you can't survive without that bank account without very careful planning, if at all.
I like your last statement: "Hypocracy .....By Proxy....doesn't make it right. I wish you well.

Sincerely,
Mr, Davis

[DeDukshyn]

To make an alternative view on the definition of Hipocracy ... (my opinion)

In my opinion everyone is a hypocrite - it is just the degree to which that is expressed that varies. But it also may indicate the mental desire to be more, to be better, where the behaviours have not quite caught up yet. For me it is not really a black and white concept and is actually caused by behaviour induced by the delta between perceived "reality" and expressed "reality" (lying to oneself). My 2 cents ;)

[shamanseeker]

Dear Mr Davis,
I'd like to thank you for this interesting thread and for the valuable advice that you gave us in your first post. I am sorry that the emphasis here though has been on hypocrisy. As has already been stated, we are all hypocrites to a degree. We are all at a different stage of our awakening. Some of us are only just realizing what is happening in the world, some of us started waking up years ago and have done a lot to move out of the matrix, some of us woke up a long time ago and have been a bit lazy or maybe unable to move out of the control of the matrix because of the need to support our families or just to survive.
Could we move away from the word 'hypocrisy' and stop shouting 'mea culpa' and feeling guilty. We fall into the hands of the PTB when we feel guilty and helpless. This is just what they want and what their religions have been brainwashing us to do for thousands of years.
Could we, please, start talking about the practical ways in which we can beat the present system? It would be really helpful if members of the forum who have set up their own cooperatives for cultivating food and bartering could give us some practical advice or inspiration from their experiences, or on how to live without the banks or to limit our exchange with them, for example. This, in my opinion, would do much more for us and society than calling each other hypocrites or feeling guilty. We need to feel responsible, not guilty, and start doing something practical to change this situation. Can we change the title of the thread to "What can we do to get out of the clutches of the banks" for instance?
Thanks again for the valuable information that you gave us in your first post. I hope that we will be able to expand on what you advised us to do and not waste this opportunity.
As I addressed you as Mr Davis, I feel I should finish with "yours sincerely" but will just say "Bye" :-)

[blake]

Here's how I see this. The more I realize just how imperfect I really am, the more I want to be encouraging to my also highly imperfect brothers and sisters on this planet. We all have our strengths, we all have our weaknesses, and we all suffer. If we want to change the tide, I think it's more productive to point out, compliment and encourage the good points in others, not belabor their bad points.

Fred steps down off of his portable soap box to grab another frosty cold Budweiser out of the fridge.:)

Cheers,
Fred

Hello Fred,

I was a bit perplexed why many posts were not staying on topic, which I thought I had made clear in the first few posts. However, the name of the thread, "how many are hyprocrites" clearly points out why. I should have had a better title like: "how many are hypnocrites concerning the monetary and banking system." I seemed to repeatedly refer each post back to the monetary system, and yet posts kept bringing up how they are hypnocritcs in all areas of life. So I just want to officially clarify that this thread is not about all hypocrisies, just the ones, if any, relating to one's relationship with the monetary and banking system.

Thanks for your comments, and my apologies for not being more specific in the title of the thread.

Sincerely,
Mr Davis

[blake]

Blake, do you protest against your government (I'm not sure which country you are in) by paying no tax at all?

Hello Lochinvar,

That is a very interesting subject but is off topic. The topic of this thread is the monetary and banking system and one's relationship with that system. If one is protesting the banks, or complaining about the banks, and yet still use the banks services ,when they have choices, no matter how inconvenient some of those choices may be, are they not being hypocritcal?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Snowbird]

In this one particular area of life, I am not a hypocrite. Because of the banks, I changed over to a local neighborhood credit union years ago.

I also have been a vegetarian for decades because I can take this quiet and open stand against abusive animal farming....besides, I can no longer chew the flesh of my friends.:sad:

[Praxis]

I am going to have to politely disagree with blake. The point of not using the banks is not the real issue. The real issue is determining is humanity should be directed and manipulated by a small group(s) of people with the majority getting to have a say in the discussion, if there even is a discussion being had be these groups. Everybody believes, well not most people who think critically, that capitalism is a good thing. The reason for this is because they see the accomplishments the Leviathan makes and it makes them happy to see things "moving forward."

People do not openly protest the wars en masse because once again they love to see the arm of the Leviathan smash things with such efficacy. Some, indeed many, might argue that we need to take a step backwards and return to a simpler life style, much like that of the tribes of the past and some tribes today. I for one do not care to partake in this reality. It would be a step in a direction I prefer not to go. I have been part of a tribe and it would not suit me to do so again.
I, in fact I would bet that most of us, incarnated on this planet at this time for the sole/soul purpose of helping move this Leviathan into what it is supposed to be used for: something simliar to what we know as the Federation. Im not talking wishy washy, soonists that Nidle is supposedly in contact with in talking Jean Luc Picard.

Smashing Corporations should not be the goal. Smashing banks should not be the immediate goal. Banks should be run by the people for the benefit of the people, with NO USURY.Just like out government it might need dismantling and the putting back together once it is clean of the certain influences. Eventually, banks should not exist because we should realize that we all own nothing and the resources we share are finite in certain terms. We need to (re)discover the ability of being able to stretch finite into infinite. Switching to a credit Union is not helping because it only shifts power minimally. Honestly, you need to open accounts up with the banks and help feed the beast. The only way withdrawing works is if everybody does it. Even if, which is highly unlikely, you got all the people on this website to do as you ask it would not effect the banks. It would require corporate persons doing this as well to truly achieve what you hope. I prefer the opposite. I will keep my account, which really does not have all that much in it, and I will feed it. The banks are almost fat enough to be constantly in everyones view. They need more food not less to maintain the visibility they have achieve in the last several years. Do you really want to undo the damage they did to themselves with the bailouts?

You are playing a game in which the system is totally under control by the opponent. No actions you take against that system will do anything to it at this point. Lets say Gary McKinnon is telling the truth. Look what his actions achieve him. Yeah he knows certain items but it does not matter because most humans do not. Shifting your money from Banks to credit unions is re arranging the deck chairs on the titanic and wondering why the Rock 'e' fellars have not been seen on the ship. Your time would be far better spent on other humans thoughts and the gravity they create. Ideas have weight, not in the Newtonian sense, but attraction is a characteristic that they have. When another person thinks a thought it generates a vibration. The more people with this vibration the higher the intensity of this vibration. Eventually enough people will realize how ridiculous our current system is and they will no longer desire it. When most people, which is currently the case espcially in other countries that are not "Western", stop wanting this system we will have a change. However, with this manner it will require little to no destructive creation. We should not destroy banks, we should use them to feed and clothe the world. We should use them for good as long as people think banks are neccessary. The very second people realize that we can share resources of this planet and not have to worry about ownership then the banks will no longer be needed.

I would be careful throwing blame on other people blake, because I am willing to bet that you are not in true alignment at all times. By this I mean alignment of thought, action, word, and reflection. If you are, then more power to you and keep up the good work. The vibrations you are creating are doing far more than moving assets around the system would ever do. If not, work on the gravity wells of the ideas you wish to manifest, and not ridicule others for hypocrisy.

[Lord Sidious]

Blake is ok people, you might think he is being a nugget, but he is a decent member here.
So don't go attacking the messenger, ok?

[Mad Hatter]

Welcome to Avalon 9ofClubs...

Great post, but could you do these old eyes a favour and maybe put a blank line between the odd paragraph !!

cheers

[Lochinvar]

Blake, do you protest against your government (I'm not sure which country you are in) by paying no tax at all?

Hello Lochinvar,

That is a very interesting subject but is off topic. The topic of this thread is the monetary and banking system and one's relationship with that system. If one is protesting the banks, or complaining about the banks, and yet still use the banks services ,when they have choices, no matter how inconvenient some of those choices may be, are they not being hypocritcal?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis
I see you have dodged the question.

Staying truly on topic would involve an answer with a number (in response to "How many..?"). Nobody has done that yet and as such are all off topic.

If you can't see the connection between government and banking then not only are you living in the dark but you are missing the point of your protest (as well as putting people off with your wording of it).

Out of interest, do you use an internet cafe for these posts or do you pay your internet service provider in cash?

Glad you started a thread about doing things though. Maybe the thread on "Forms of action" can be re-ignited.

Yours sincerely

T. Geithner

Ps My answer is 10. Am I close?

[blake]

Perhaps it's less about being a hypocrite, but more a matter of expediancy or practicality. I personally bank, and always have banked, with local building societies, which are a lesser evil. I would be interested to hear your suggestions as to how most people could obtain a mortgage, however, when they wish to buy a home without resorting to a bank, building society, or other large institution?

Let's think more about changing things for the better, than railing at victims of the system.

Hello Music,

I don't believe in mortgages. I believe easy mortgages are part of what skyrocketed the housing industry. I believe in paying cash. And many times that might mean that people might have to save up money to be able to purchase land first, and then continue to save until they have enough to build a foundation, and then the rest of the house. That would certainly make many people more responsible, with how they do spend the money they have. I think the younger generation needs to prioritize more, and plan for their basics needs. Some may be lucky to inherit a home. Some may be lucky to have their relatives help them get into a home. I understand this is outside of the box of conventional thinking, and against the norm of how society manages to have people buy homes. But it keeps your freedom and gives you more control over your lives.

Some people may want to play the system until they can free themselves. I know people who have flipped houses until they had enough money to buy a modest home outright, and then have it eventually updated, and enlarged as they had the cash means to do so. It always gave them a sense of freedom that the thirty or more percent of their incomes that use to go to the banks, now goes into their savings, or rather silver. Several young couples I know, desperately wanted out of the two family income; so when they had children, financially they could swing a stay- at- home parent, or at least a stay- at- home parent that just worked part time. Well, they worked hard, were hawks with their income, bought land, built beautiful homes, and now they all are easily living on one income, and have beautiful families.

I understand that everyone is dealt a different deal in life. So the challenge is to figure out a plan to get a safe and beautiful house outright without the dead deed of the bank. The word mortgage means dead deed. It's a challenge. Maybe a thread could be devoted as to how people have done it, or are trying to do it. Or start a community in which people help people do it by practical means and brainstorming. I am not talking about permaculture groups, or bartering groups, I am talking about people getting together to specifically strategize and brainstorm, then take the practical steps needed to help everyone in their group get a mortgage- free home. It can be done; but it takes brainpower, commitment, compassion, and discipline.

We are taught, and are mostly marketed into getting mortgages. The average person goes along with that because it is the conventional structure of society, even if it is harmful to the average families, and eventually deathly to the basic foundation of the economy. In my opinion, any patronizing of the banks, in a debt base economy, as we now have , can easily lead to the average human's financial enslavement, while contributing to the financial enslavement of others. There are other ways to make financial transactions or getting money to buy a house without selling your soul to the corrupt financial system. But the bottom line is responsibility. How responsible are people with their money so they are not seduced out of it by the marketers who are highly trained to get the average person to buy what either they can't afford, or don't need, or perhaps really don't even want. The banks complete the seduction, of the marketers, by giving the credit to give the people, which is just a carrot of illusionary fiscal power, to purchase what they have been sold to believe they need, until people are working night and day just to pay the interest on that credi, let alone paying down the principle. I don't need to go into that story. Most of you know it by heart. But because credit cards, and easy mortgages can easily complete the seduction of the professional marketers, the average family have lost their soul to the bankers. Sadly, it was an unfair fight. The average family had to put in real hours to make the money to pay the interest on "money" lent to them, while the bankers essentially created that credit/money out of thin air by a simple computer entry, and then poof, purchasing power is provided with loan shock details. Actually, at least the old loan sharks, did lend bonafide money, and not the empty air of a computer entry. What real working hours, or hard assets did the banks put into the deal of lending any human purchasing power? Maybe kiting some checks, and computer accounts ? Did real money, or hard assets ever leave the bank vaults, or worse yet, were they ever in the bank vaults for this lending of money to occur? No. But that is accepted banking practices today, and is how our society works. And since some people think that is okay, and since the majority of people use, or are forced to use the system, and therefore supports the system, the system grows and grows eating up people’s freedom along the way, until the whole system collapses from the wealth that the one percent was able to steal from the 99 percent from such banking practices that had been structured and accepted into our society. I have to ask, if the mafia was structured into our financial society, how many humans would rationalize that they can adapt to that too, and would use their system also? Or would humans, use their brain, and ethics to shun the system? Our present financial system is designed to collapse. But when it is rebuilt, by the same mentality that put it in place, it will be a much more sinister system, which includes at least eventually a cashless society. Cash is a human’s only line of defense from being raped by the corrupt monetary system. The more cash you use, the more weight to the side of freedom you contribute. Using cash everyday is a statement; a very strong statement, as well as other practical results. Because when we enter this cashless society, any power or options that may have existed will be gone, resulting in the financial and freedom checkmate on the humans who are not part of running the financial show, aka now running everything.

I would honestly like to know why it is okay with some humans, for most humans, to pay interest on money that never existed. How do humans rationalize patronizing an institution that is causing so much unnecessary pain and theft in this world simply because it convenient to do so and society seduces us into it, until we are locked into it.


By using their system now, humans are contributing to an even more sinister system when the collapse happens.. The marketers sold the idea, and the bankers had you pledge to put real time in working long hours to pay back what they never actually gave out, and on top of that collect interest on funds that never existed. There are hundreds of videos and books that explain this in detail. I especially highly esteem Dr. Edwin Vieria, and G. Edward Griffen for their outstanding research, and scholarly, chilling conclusions. And I think most people on Avalon are probably quite versed in this; so it puzzles me why people seem to talk and write about it while they appear to only sit on the bench and watch the drama as entertainment. Or perhaps, many humans like to be the victim and have an emotional need to be saved?

Most humans can make the decision to use cash rather than write personal checks or use debit cards. Perhaps it is a little inconvenient sometimes to do that, but what a statement one is making about freedom, choices and privacy. No need to be in crowds protesting, just using cash as a part of your daily life. How powerful!

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Mr Davis. How old are you? 80? I am 40 now, and I don't sign off my comments as Mr Lister, which is my real surname. Is that a sign of wanting respect by signing off as Mr. Davis or am I missing a sense of irony from your post? I hope so. By the way, I agree with your message, but we all have to live inside the matrix for now. It's not practical to ask our employers to pay us in cash; that will never happen in today's society. We must think of a grander scale. But, alas, I can't think of a way to stop the power of the banks. Too many people are totally indebted to the bank (mortgage, loans,etc) to have a chance to change things. The bankers know this and that's why they have such power. Unless everybody who is indebted to the bank gives them the two fingers, we are f***ed. That needs a revoltion to start the process you desire. Who's going to be first to get things rolling? Fortunately, I have no debt, so I am all ears, but the vast majority of us are steeped so deep in debt, we need a fantastic plan so we all revolt together to make the change. Suggestions please Mr Davis (Blake).

Hello Thinking Allowed,

Well that gave me quite a chuckle. No, I am not eighty, far from it. No irony about how I sign my name; it's simply how I was brought up. I always sign my name like that with people I don't know. If I knew, you I would sign: sincerely, Blake.

When you write that the bankers have too much power that is key; becasue that power, in this debt-based economy is totally unethical, corrupt, and devastating to millions of people. The people need to take their financial power back. How do they do that? There are many ways but to me, a foundational way would be to wean themselves from the banks quickly, or slowly, whatever one can manage.

Oh, and by the way, congratulations on having no debt. That alone is a strong point for the side of freedom!

You are right about the chances of convincing your employer to pay you in cash are slim to none. But you don't have to follow suit, you can pay those who do work for you ,or provide you with a service in cash. How wonderful it is when people can pass on what is good and ethical instead pass on the corrupt action of financial paper. And for all you business people out there, you will just have to weigh what is important to you, and make as many changes as you can. I know it is hard for the small businessman to use cash becasue of his records for uncle sam. That is a different thread. But still, the businessman can use cash, at least sometimes. I know of a small business owner of a seasonal business. One year he told me that in one summer his company had to pay out thirtyfive thousand in credit card fees for accepting credit cards in his business transactions. He made the decison not to accept credit cards any more, and his company was thirtyfive thousand dollars richer the following summer. Now he doesn't even take checks, simply cash only.

So good to hear you have no debt. But are your writing checks, using debit cards, using credit cards, using ATMs, doing electronic banking, or transactions? You seem to have many more choices than others. I hope you choose to use cash, if for nothing else but to make a strong statement about freedom, choices and privacy.

Do we need a revolution? Of course we do! But who wants blood on the streets. How about a quiet one where people tell the government what they want by using cash only!!!!

I think it was tragic when they changed the bankruptcy laws. I wish humans would NOT feel guilty about bankruptcy in this debt based economy we have supported all these years with little protest. I think everyone should just walk away from their debt, connected to the finanacial system if they can have a solid plan, to stay safe and thrive.

I support Ron Paul, becasue at the very least he is getting the word out about a sound economy. And without a sound economy, and an honest monetary system ninetynine percent or more of the population will be slaves to the rest. People love choices, and choices give us power. But if we stop using our choice to use cash, soon we won't have that option, and then what tool will we have left except for blood on the streets. I don't want it to get to that point, do you? Keep the people's choices open, use cash or lose it!

Sincerely,

Mr Davis

[Lochinvar]

Mr Davis. How old are you? 80? I am 40 now, and I don't sign off my comments as Mr Lister, which is my real surname. Is that a sign of wanting respect by signing off as Mr. Davis or am I missing a sense of irony from your post? I hope so. By the way, I agree with your message, but we all have to live inside the matrix for now. It's not practical to ask our employers to pay us in cash; that will never happen in today's society. We must think of a grander scale. But, alas, I can't think of a way to stop the power of the banks. Too many people are totally indebted to the bank (mortgage, loans,etc) to have a chance to change things. The bankers know this and that's why they have such power. Unless everybody who is indebted to the bank gives them the two fingers, we are f***ed. That needs a revoltion to start the process you desire. Who's going to be first to get things rolling? Fortunately, I have no debt, so I am all ears, but the vast majority of us are steeped so deep in debt, we need a fantastic plan so we all revolt together to make the change. Suggestions please Mr Davis (Blake).

Hello Thinking Allowed,

Well that gave me quite a chuckle. No, I am not eighty, far from it. No irony about how I sign my name; it's simply how I was brought up. I always sign my name like that with people I don't know. If I knew, you I would sign: sincerely, Blake.

When you write that the bankers have too much power that is key; becasue that power, in this debt-based economy is totally unethical, corrupt, and devastating to millions of people. The people need to take their financial power back. How do they do that? There are many ways but to me, a foundational way would be to wean themselves from the banks quickly, or slowly, whatever one can manage.

Oh, and by the way, congratulations on having no debt. That alone is a strong point for the side of freedom!

You are right about the chances of convincing your employer to pay you in cash are slim to none. But you don't have to follow suit, you can pay those who do work for you ,or provide you with a service in cash. How wonderful it is when people can pass on what is good and ethical instead pass on the corrupt action of financial paper. And for all you business people out there, you will just have to weigh what is important to you, and make as many changes as you can. I know it is hard for the small businessman to use cash becasue of his records for uncle sam. That is a different thread. But still, the businessman can use cash, at least sometimes. I know of a small business owner of a seasonal business. One year he told me that in one summer his company had to pay out thirtyfive thousand in credit card fees for accepting credit cards in his business transactions. He made the decison not to accept credit cards any more, and his company was thirtyfive thousand dollars richer the following summer. Now he doesn't even take checks, simply cash only.

So good to hear you have no debt. But are your writing checks, using debit cards, using credit cards, using ATMs, doing electronic banking, or transactions? You seem to have many more choices than others. I hope you choose to use cash, if for nothing else but to make a strong statement about freedom, choices and privacy.

Do we need a revolution? Of course we do! But who wants blood on the streets. How about a quiet one where people tell the government what they want by using cash only!!!!

I think it was tragic when they changed the bankruptcy laws. I wish humans would NOT feel guilty about bankruptcy in this debt based economy we have supported all these years with little protest. I think everyone should just walk away from their debt, connected to the finanacial system if they can have a solid plan, to stay safe and thrive.

I support Ron Paul, becasue at the very least he is getting the word out about a sound economy. And without a sound economy, and an honest monetary system ninetynine percent or more of the population will be slaves to the rest. People love choices, and choices give us power. But if we stop using our choice to use cash, soon we won't have that option, and then what tool will we have left except for blood on the streets. I don't want it to get to that point, do you? Keep the people's choices open, use cash or lose it!

Sincerely,

Mr Davis

I find it amusing that you see the use of fiat currency as the ultimate protest against the bankers.

I'm also amused by the fact you think voting changes things.

Peace and love.

[blake]

Blake wrote:

Hello jorr lundstrom,

I understand that is a perspective and a strategy for many people. And to some extent it is true, and right depending, of course, on one's situation. Sometimes, for some people, all they can do is wait out the storm and look for their opportune moment to escape the trap. I did not see the movie you are referring to, so I may be misunderstanding your point. However, sometimes that strategy, in my opinion, is the lazy way out, or a way to rationalize a person's desire to put their head in the sand, or simply justify their lack of decent action becasue its inconvenient; especially if a person has the means to be pro active, and do their part to make a difference.

Sincerley,

Mr. Davis

You do not know me, nor how I live my life, nor how I have been living my life.

You dont know my plans or anything else about me. You may call me lazy, you

may call me stupid, or deluded or anything else you like. I live my life in the best

way I can and as I suppose you are not gonna live my life for me I prefer that you

dont try to master me, as all attempts in that way are totally useless both for you

and me.

Best regards,

Jorr

Hello jorr lundstrom,

I don't know if I am understanding you correctly, but you seem a bit miffed? I am not trying to "master you". Neither have I accused you of being stupid, lazy, or deluded. I agree, I do not know you, so how could I judge you, or even offer advice to you on how you live your life? I am so sorry if that is how you interpreted my posting. We are all captains of our own ship to decide how we live our lives. I am only sharing my opinions on the banking and present monetary systems, and doing intellectual sparing on the idea of the alledged hypocrisy that some may have with their relationship within theses systems. Nothing I post is directed personally to any other poster. It is all just intellectual sparing at the situations we all find ourselves in. It is not a personal attack, or judgement on ANY poster.

My apologies for any misunderstanding,

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[blake]

Mr Davis, I have re-read my last post and realized it was way too harsh. I apologize for my harsh tone and should not have posted it. I am sorry. I try not to offend, generally, but realize that my words were offensive. Jack Daniels were to blame (no, it was me!)

Hello Thinking Allowed,

Apology accepted, but really no offense was taken. But thank you for wanting to clear it up anyways.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[sygh]

A big part of the problem is that most are like a rudderless boat, no direction.
They are not sure how to effect change without too much effort, so they just bumble on.

That's because they are still thinking linearly, and not holistically. We must begin to think in terms of interlocking circular systems. In order to study a system, it must be defined. Prior to now, most ppl thought no further about say, the electricity they used than the light switch that made it available to them. It didn't matter to them that the turbine, or generator creating the energy they were using was only 33% efficient with 63% of the input energy it took to create electricity wasted in the form of heat exchanged to thousands of gallons of potable water used to cool the generator. The end user flicks on his/her incandescent light bulb -totally unaware of the fact it is merely 10 % efficient in the use of the energy it recieves, which means that 90% of the energy used to light the room is wasted in heat. But then, if I am a brain surgen, or a trash collector, why should I be overly concerned with how much energy it takes to run a refrigerator, other than the bill I pay every month?

And isn't that also the truth? What about morals? What about ethics? A Doctor swears and oath to care for the sick. A trash collector must be there every week. What makes those who work in the energy field any different? Maybe it's because one has to go ten layers down in the profit market before they actually find an electrical engineer doing the work?

And what about not listening to the idiot who says, in order to grow an economy, we must contiunue to make things with short shelf lives? Do most know that 80% of the stuff we make is tossed in the dump?

Has anyone seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLBE5QAYXp8&feature=player_detailpage

[Oreamis333]

Hello, new here, but I would just like to propose, that wether we want to or not, we are all hypocrite. At some level or not, we are lying to ourselves, about our comfort, the world we live in, and the world of tommorrow.

We will watch with shock horror and amazement at the various un-endable wars in the middle east, then hop into our "top-fuel dragsters" to take the kid's to school.

Don't wanna be deppressing, but the trap has been sprung, the bank's are not the overall problem. They feed it, with amazing power, but it us, the hypocrites that oil the machine, with our fear of not having enough fuel to come home again, ooh I could go on for hours on the subject.

It is also a trap of "hierarchy", no one element of the banking system with the education and reasoning that they have will back down and say "oh, let's take a break, drop the interest rate, scrap this abolish that" because it is fundamental to the socio-
political power-mongering that they don't, and that votes are won. We are part of a tribal system for the time being wether we chose it or not, and for the time being all victims of those with, supposedly, the biggest ball's.

As Douglas Adams wrote about Jesus, "until a man two thousand years ago was nailed to a tree , because he said 'wouldn't it be good if we were all nice to each other' "

Won't work, ever, until a real power crisis, and I'm not talking about fifty dollars the gallon. Then people will start standing up to the monetary system, or just the system in general.

I sooo wish to be self sufficient, I try, re-utilisation and recovery of the maximum so as not to be held by the "buy stuff to be happy" ethos, but it is almost impossible here in France, where banks are amongst the sneakiest in the world....

There's about five different subjects in my rambling post, but the best way to stop the banks power over us, is "don't bank." Bet you we can't...

[fox.mulder]

Blake is ok people, you might think he is being a nugget, but he is a decent member here.
So don't go attacking the messenger, ok?

I think ur right lord, but he is yet another frustrated player in the game wondering why it is so hard for people to see the "truth". ('Truth' being a relative and non precise term and very individual).

I wish you well Mr Blake.

[blake]

Thanks Blake. Valid points, and there may be some missing perspectives.

I won't and cannot cover all the alternative perspectives, however here are some.

1. Most people are not schooled in the mechanics of marginal banking, nor of the financial markets and financial instruments.

2. Individuals may be 'walking wounded,' and would have cried out for help in the past, didn't get help when then needed, and have disconnected from society.

3. Emotional issues, particularly internal head injuries [aka PTSD], and other health issues that keeps individual preferring to stay socially isolated due.

4. Social engineering devices such as the public education system and television -- choice & action are foreign concepts that people are not familiar with.

This would be but a sampling of the broad perspective of many reasons why people don't immediately come to action when Paul Revere comes riding through town.


I believe it helps to be accepting of how people are, including their reluctance for action, challenging authority, and defensiveness.

It is how people are, in contradistinction to how we would like them to be.

For people 'squeezed out of the system' the argument comes a lot easier, however there are many who are on the fringe of the system, and they are hanging on for dear life, hoping that everything will hand together, and there is tremendous peer pressure for them to segregate themselves from those who are willing to take action.

They don't know it yet, but they are soon to be on the other side of the divide. If we help prepare them for what is coming, during their process of change, they will stay in denial a far shorter period of time.

I think it more realistic to count on that a 2nd, 3rd or 4th mile is yet to be walked before the finish line is to be crossed, and prepare for surviving a longer battle, as well as prepare those that believe them to still 'have a chance' for the current system to survive and benefit them.

We can do them, ourselves, our children, our children's children, spouses of our children's children, and their friends all a favor for taking a softer, slower & longer approach.

Looking back into history is where we get the clue. They cycles have come and gone for eons. This issue isn't going to get fixed by the 5th of November.

There may be some memorable dates for some activities and actions taken, and the morning after needs to be considered.

Much can be learned from "The Art of War" where one suggestion is to be close to your friends, and closer to your enemy.

I believe understanding, patience, dialog and collaboration will go further as a tool for change than any one petition or any one action.

- 58


Perhaps if people were not so insecure in their ethics, perhaps if people were less hypocritcal, perhaps if people were less defensive, we would have more individuals willing to risk being the leaders in our communities to bring about ethical change.

But getting back to the monetary system, why would any indiviual need a leader or a group of people to stop patronzing banks.

In a case like that, all they have to do is use their brain and their conscience.

Hello 58andfixed,

Many good and valid points, thank you for posting them.

I agree with you that it is impossible for one person to bring up all views, and perspectives on this topic. And I think that is true with most topics. Sometimes the interesting tangents wash over the heart of the original discussion or point. During a brainstorming session that is great, but I have tried to keep very narrow perimeters on the topic at hand, so that perhaps we might be able to dig more deeply into it, without losing it to other very interesting, and valid tangents.

It is my opinion that enough people have awakened to the workings of the present corrupt
monetary system to bring forth change, but choose not to take action with their knowledge. This is not just a phenomena limited to the topic at hand. Perhaps some of the points you listed may very well be the reason why.

It appears that this thread has occasionally upset a few posters. We all interpret the same words differently some times. I am sharing my opinions and perspective on this topic with other humans who choose to read this thread. And I look forward not to just reading the opinions and perspectives of others, but learning something new in the process.

And I always learn something new from you, 58and fixed.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[blake]

Hello Nancyv
You wrote"

“As far as your statement that by using banks I am supporting them…well, in the same vein….when you eat any food that contains Genetically Modified Organisms then you are supporting Monsanto. If you pay taxes you are supporting a corrupt system of government and taxation and the corrupt IRS.”

Yes, NancyV , in my opinion, that is all true. I do think that if you choose not to avoid GMOs,the best you can, then you are supporting the poisoning of our food and thereby the destruction of the health of our society. But all that is for another thread.

“Just about anything we do in society contributes to the way society is run.”


I believe you are correct, so I suggest choosing action that will promote goodness, honesty, and health as much as one can, like being aware enough to avoid buying processed foods as much as one can in order to better avoid GMOs. But that is another thread.



“If you use the dollar or the euro or almost any currency you are also contributing to the debt based fiat system.”


Of course, real money is preferred, but the fiat cash dollar, still is a tool for now that can be used in a limited way in favor of the 99 percenters, if they used it! And is not nearly as poisoness as writing checks, using debit and credit cards, using electronic banking etc etc; And NancyV, I think you are pulling my leg, because I know you know the difference.

"I am not going to totally drop out of society and stop using all the tools that are there to be used. Anyone who chooses to totally opt out of everything will find it very difficult to live in this world, but anyone may do that if they wish to."


And that is your choice too, no reason to defend it, but it is nice to understand where you are coming from. I would venture to guess that during the American Revolution, I would be in the character of Thomas Jefferson and you, dear lady, would be a tory?
…


"I did laugh while reading this thread and then felt irritated as I occasionally get slightly annoyed at what I see as illogical and limited (non holistic) thinking."


Please, share what you thought you saw as illogical, after all aren’t we all reading this thread to learn something? And as far as the non holistic thinking, I am trying to limit the perimeters to keep focused on the point of discussion. This is something that doesn’t happen in real life but is such a learning tool when one has the opportunity to dissect ideas before bringing them out into everyday life. So please do share.


"Regarding A: It is your opinion that banks are bad and unethical. Your opinion is not an absolute fact."


What do you mean “not an absolute fact”? Could you please explain where the funds come from when a bank processes a loan or mortgage?


"I think many of us know that many banks engage in unethical practices and we also know that our debt based society is not the most ethical way to conduct our economic system, but that does not mean that all banks are completely unethical.
Our debt based society is not the most ethical way to conduct our economic system”


Could you say more on that? And forgive me for the cliché, but do you also believe in just being a little bit pregnant?

"Regarding B: First I would have to agree with A (your opinion - not a proven fact for all banks)"


Why? They all use the same accepted banking practices.

"and I would also have to think that I could perhaps catch the disease of being unethical merely by association with others who are unethical and using tools (banking services) that may be run by unethical people."


How about the accepted banking practices?


"Regarding C: Now that we feel like sh*t because we’re using a system that we view as unethical, we can feel guilty and admit we are hypocrites…thus becoming more frustrated, more angry and more disempowered!"


I would think facing the truth is a big step towards empowerment. You know the saying that you can’t fix something until you identify the problem.


"It’s sort of like Alcoholics Anonymous! “My name is Nancy and I am a bankaholic. I cannot stop using banks because I am addicted to them but I constantly feel guilty about violating my ethics! So I am a HYPOCRITE!!” Then we could beat our chests a bit, say a few mea culpas, shed a few tears and feel a lot better for admitting our addictions and ethical failings. Hopefully we will at least get absolution for our sins. (tongue in cheek intended)."


You jest, but wouldn’t it feel freeing to acknowledge it all, and then taking action to change the course of your addiction (tongue and check of course”)


"…..You have left out some important categories of people: those who recognize that they are infinite consciousness merely playing a temporal game here on earth and will not take sides just because someone wants them to play the game their way. Another category of people might believe that whatever we think about most or fight against most…is strengthened and made more powerful."


Yes, I am quite aware of those belief systems. Interesting as they are, they are another thread.


"Another category of people might think that even if we have crappy systems now, the systems that would replace them might be worse! Since you understand that human nature is the problem, what makes you think that many so called spiritually aware people won’t give into the human desire for power and control and as soon as they tear down the present system they will design one of their own that will inevitably become as or more corrupted than the one in place now? "


So you rather work with the devil you know than the devil you don’t know . Sorry about another cliché. I do believe the next financial system will be much more sinister. And if humans do not demand better, do not raise the bar to insist upon an honest monetary, and banking system now, by taking simple action to keep freedom and privacy breathing, by using cash now, then we are all doomed. But that is merely my opinion. At least, for the moment we might have a chance if humans can look squarely in the mirror and understand that one can not be just a little bit pregnant. There is a huge problem right in all our faces for those brave enough to look.


"I agree that whomever controls the most money controls the governments and laws to a large extent. If the present system falls and the banks fail, what will you replace it with?"

That appears to be up to the humans. Will they carve out their future by being pro active, taking action now; or will they go along with the lies and corruption, and take the implanted chip that will be eventually injected into them. Oh excuse me, that is outdated technology now.


"Egypt is finding out right now that perhaps Mubarak was not as bad as what is going to replace him. over 100,000 Christians have had to leave the country since their churches are being burned and they are being attacked by Muslims now, with no one to stop the attacks. Revolution does not always bring happy outcomes because even humans who seem to have high ideals are still subject to their basic human nature unless they put in a LOT of effort to overcome it."


As much as I would love to discuss what is happening in the Middle East, since my son is a senior policy consultant expert, in the area, and we get into the most invigorating discussions, sadly, that tangent too is off topic and most be another thread.


"I have disciplined my mind to live my ethics…not your ethics, not anyone else’s ethics and I assume you do too, unless you think there is a set of universal ethics that applies to us all."


Actually I think there are foundational ethics that are bound to us all. I think most decent people will agree that stealing is wrong, hurting people is wrong, cheating on your spouse is wrong, sexual abuse or any type of abuse is wrong….. need I go on, or perhaps your fundamental ethics are different?


"I also don’t subscribe to the idea of “unalienable rights”.


I knew it!!! You are a Tory!!!  You can’t be an American and not support unalienable rights!!!


"Your “rights” are whatever you can create, earn and are able to keep."


Well, according to the Declaration of Independence governments are created to secure our unalienable rights. But again, that is another thread. Forgive me if you are not American. I am assuming you are.


"It’s a question of personal responsibility. Try asserting your unalienable rights if you’re captured by a tribe of cannibals."

Well with our present police state, underminding what the repsonsibilty of the government is, you can’t even assert your unalienable rights in your home, or at the airport. But America did die a long time ago. But that too is another thread.


"We could be protesting about our unalienable rights until we turn red while getting hotter and hotter in the cooking pot."


Sad isn’t it. Do you know what happened to America? Oh, sorry that is another thread.

'
"I would only need to rationalize my behavior if I agreed with your code of ethics and your arguments about what constitutes a violation of those ethics. Since I apparently have a different understanding of ethics, I willingly continue to use banking services. "


So are you suggesting that based on your ethics, stealing is okay? Sorry, that is another thread too!


“Energy goes where attention flows”.


So with all your attention on writing checks, and using all the banks tools on a daily basis, your energy is flowing in the direction of the banks, helping the banks grow stronger and more powerful as they steal from the ninety-nine percent and give to the one percent.

" It is easy for us to see that much of what the banks do looks evil to us on this human level. But there are many other levels besides this one. Not to say I won’t fight what looks like evil if it is in my face"


I don’t understand how it is not in your face, unless you choose to look the other way.

"I like your ideas and you certainly express yourself well. It’s good that you’re doing what you believe in. Even when I haven’t agreed with you in some of your past posts I always appreciate that you have your own set of ethics and that you attempt to live up to them with great passion"

Thank you, NancyV, always a pleasure to exchange perspectives with you too.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

I think we are all hypocrites from time to time. We all just realize it and try our best to adjust!

Hello Referee,

Yes, I do agree. But sometimes, being a hypocrite on somethings, at certain times, can be quite devastating to yourself and others.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Here's one way to use the system. Sign up for direct deposit. Leave only the amount required so as not to be charged any fees. Once paid, withdraw your money. If your write checks, go to the nearest Amscot and the money orders are free. Great thing about this one is your debtors will love the fact that the money order clears alot faster then the check as it has already been paid in full. Follow??? No need to pay for checks now.

Hello PHARAOH,

What is Amscot?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

It is a check cashing/ money lending insitution. It's big in the states.

Hi PHARAOH,

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[mosquito]

A lot of people have said that we are all hypocrites. Without wishing to be pedantic, I beg to difer.

I agree (as I've already said) that most, if not all of us find it hard to truly walk the talk and live as we'd wish to, that's not quite the same as being an out-and-out hypocrite, who preaches to others about what they should and shouldn't do while flagrantly violating their own stated "principles". Quite a lot of our law makers fit into this category, no need to name names.

So don't be so hard on yourselves folks, you use the tools that are there because there is little opportunity to do otherwise; you play by "their" rules for the simple reason that there is as yet no other game to play.

Opting out is not an easy thing to do, especially if you have others to think about, so take it one step at a time, and do what you feel comfortable doing. ;)

[jorr lundstrom]

Blake wrote:

Hello jorr lundstrom,

I understand that is a perspective and a strategy for many people. And to some extent it is true, and right depending, of course, on one's situation. Sometimes, for some people, all they can do is wait out the storm and look for their opportune moment to escape the trap. I did not see the movie you are referring to, so I may be misunderstanding your point. However, sometimes that strategy, in my opinion, is the lazy way out, or a way to rationalize a person's desire to put their head in the sand, or simply justify their lack of decent action becasue its inconvenient; especially if a person has the means to be pro active, and do their part to make a difference.

Sincerley,

Mr. Davis

You do not know me, nor how I live my life, nor how I have been living my life.

You dont know my plans or anything else about me. You may call me lazy, you

may call me stupid, or deluded or anything else you like. I live my life in the best

way I can and as I suppose you are not gonna live my life for me I prefer that you

dont try to master me, as all attempts in that way are totally useless both for you

and me.

Best regards,

Jorr

Hello jorr lundstrom,

I don't know if I am understanding you correctly, but you seem a bit miffed? I am not trying to "master you". Neither have I accused you of being stupid, lazy, or deluded. I agree, I do not know you, so how could I judge you, or even offer advice to you on how you live your life? I am so sorry if that is how you interpreted my posting. We are all captains of our own ship to decide how we live our lives. I am only sharing my opinions on the banking and present monetary systems, and doing intellectual sparing on the idea of the alledged hypocrisy that some may have with their relationship within theses systems. Nothing I post is directed personally to any other poster. It is all just intellectual sparing at the situations we all find ourselves in. It is not a personal attack, or judgement on ANY poster.

My apologies for any misunderstanding,

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Mr Davis, it was my mistake to participate in your thread from the beginning.

Lesson learned. Your way of handling my response really awoke sacred anger

in me. If I there after should have written wot I felt, I had been banned in

notime. There are a limit for honesty on the forum you know. I´ll stay away

from your threads. No problem.

Regards

Jorr

[Isthatso]

So don't be so hard on yourselves folks, you use the tools that are there because there is little opportunity to do otherwise; you play by "their" rules for the simple reason that there is as yet no other game to play.

Opting out is not an easy thing to do, especially if you have others to think about, so take it one step at a time, and do what you feel comfortable doing. ;)

Isn't that what they want us to think - there is no other game to play? Life is becoming less comfortable by the day - inching forward in the wrong direction. Maybe a greater effort is a pretty good option right now. Withdrawing from the system as much as possible seems to be the most effective response.

You are right.... it isn't easy, but each time I make a change I feel a little more comfortable.

Warm wishes...

[sygh]

I - I am a hypocrite. I eat meat and yet I can't bear the farming methods that bring it to my plate. :(

Hello w1ndmill,

Thank you for your response. However, the issue of this thread is not meat, but the banking system. Are you also a hypocrite concerning the enslavement of the majority of the people by contributing to the bank's power by using the sevices of a bank, while at the same time complaining about the economy, or the fraud in the monetary system, or by actively participating in the "occupy" movement or the support of that movement?

The animal issue and the processing of meat is a huge concern, but again, it is not the topic in this thread.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis


I take your point Mr D but a hypocrite is a hypocrite. I go out to work - some days I work like a dog - to bring home the readies to feed, clothe and support my family AND TO PAY OFF CRIPPLING CREDIT CARD DEBT. My money goes straight into a bank account and then straight out again. I cannot see that not doing this and starving my family and living on the street will benefit them at all, so yes, I am a hypocrite.

Hello W1ndmill,

The parents that go out and work day in, and day out to support their families are the unsung heros of society in my opinion. And it is familes like yours who are caught up in a corrupt monetary system who suffer the most from the corruption. Do they have bankruptcy laws in the UK to give relief from the jaws of the sharks? I wish I had answers for you, but I don't. All I can suggest, if you can, pay cash for everyting or at least as much as you are able; but I understand, in your case, you might be so trapped by the system that even that is an impossibity for you.

I wish you well. And keep the faith that life will get easier. I don't beleive you are a hypnocrite as far as the banking industry is concerened. It just sounds like you got trapped by the system. And the system is designed to trap you. That is why I think it is so important for all individuals to stop using the banks or at least stop using them as much as possible until they can wean themselves off them completely.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Mr Davis,
I am by no means perfect. There are many things that get by me of a day. Sometimes, I feel at a loss as to how to go about changing the world around me. I actually agree that a person shouldn't use a bank, if that person understands the total consequence of using their service as unacceptable. I have little to no problem doing that; I don't have enough money in this world to worry about such lofty financials. I can simply remove the little I have, and close my account. Any bill I have to pay will cost me a pretty penny because I've found sending money through the US Postal Service is no longer protected from theft, as morals and ethics have run from the building. Catch-22 money orders are issued from banks. And, now that I know the US Postal Service is corrupt, I don't think I should use their services either. Well, now I will have to travel to pay any bill I have, unless I purchase strictly from local sources,. My world gets smaller and smaller as I type. Just one problem...

Money (i.e. the dollar) is fiat currency, not much more than an electrical buzz. The dollar is worth approximately $0.05 at this writing. Paying one's bills with the dollar is rather like cheating someone of their worth. I would suggest that when giving advise to others, it would be a good idea to follow through with the point you are trying to make by covering the bases of your arguement.

I will stress this point, I can quit the bank but I can't print my own money without getting arrested, even though I think my money would be worth more than what the dollar is worth today.

[crosby]

the timeline is already set for total failure. it doesn't matter if anyone is a hypocrite anymore. there is no stopping what has already been set in place. we can all do our part, we can all feel bad, we can all share responsibility for the total failure of a democracy, the fact is: the economy is going to fail, it is already set in stone. there is nothing that any of us can do to stop it.
corson

[Lord Sidious]

the timeline is already set for total failure. it doesn't matter if anyone is a hypocrite anymore. there is no stopping what has already been set in place. we can all do our part, we can all feel bad, we can all share responsibility for the total failure of a democracy, the fact is: the economy is going to fail, it is already set in stone. there is nothing that any of us can do to stop it.
corson

Raganorok is not the beginning of the end, it is the end of the beginning.
The end of the age of the gods and the beginning of the age of man.
So, everything ends, something new begins.
I welcome the end of this stupidity, now we will have the chance to have something for US, not THEM.

[58andfixed]

Wot if there is something that can be done, and it is simply that you don't know that you don't know ?

Wot if I knew some good steps, but know that people would have difficulty recognizing, liking or grasping the suggestions ?

Wot if all I could do -- like I recognize a lot of other doing -- is pepper PA and other places with little pieces that people could digest ?

Then it would simply be a matter of time, some patience for ppl to digest these little nuggets of truth.

I'm mostly patient. I'm mostly calm. I'm still willing to pay attention to discover more dots. I'm used to preparing for the 2nd mile.

I believe most people would like to do the 'good thing,' just that what that 'good thing' is so foreign as to be unrecognizable.

Would ppl be willing to pay attention ? Would ppl be willing to pay more attention, if there was hope ?

How many times have I tripped over truths because I didn't see them ? -- 2 many times to count.

- 58



there is nothing that any of us can do to stop it.
corson

[learninglight]

I think the content of this thread is similar to the one entitled "Want to defeat the banks?"
Maybe the mods will choose to merge?



Hello Tarka the Duck,

It is amazing how stomy and I how used the same article to make a point. However, my focus is, as I have brought up many times in the past, if people are complaining about the fraud in our centralized banking system, why is it that it is more than likely that 99 percent of the Avalonians are still aiding and abetting the beast by using its services? I have little tolerance for people who complain but rationalize why they can't take action. I am curious as to how anyone can rationalize why they still are writing checks, doing electronic banking, using debit cards etc etc when they complain so loudly about the fraud. To me that is a hypocrite. That is a very harsh word to call anyone. But the problem we have is not the banking system, becasue that could easily be corrected by the majority of humans if they were not hypocrites. Most of the evil in our society stays a problem becasue of the hypocrisy of human nature, and combine that with lhuman laziness, and many humans who prefer the sweeping of uncomfortable facts under the rug, humans get the society that they deserve. It is Human Nature that is at the core of this banking fraud issue, not just the banksters themselves. The bankers couldn't have done it without you! Can anyone actually debate, logically, not emotionally that the people on this forum, who behave in a hypocritical fashion concerning banking, are they any better than the banksters themselves if they partake in the system that gives power to the very people who enslaves the majority of the population? Those who ,in this time period , writes checks, and does electronic banking etc knowing how the system works are just as corrupt as the banksters themselves in my opinion. But people don't like to look at themselves in that realistic light. They like to rationalize their contribution to the aiding and abetting of the banks. As I keep saying, human nature is the problem. Humans don't want any inconvenice; they want an easy out. Humans will blindly close their eyes to evil, if evil will give them a convenience, or add to their profits. Humans want the bankers to stop the fraud, yet they refuse to acknowledge their own part in keeping the fraud alive.

So anyone who is a hypocrite ,according to Webster's dictionary, concerning the support of the banking system, this thread is aimed at you. Unfortunately, that means 99 percent of the population. Do you think Avalonians would have a smaller percentage of humans not supporting the banking system? I think not.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Hi Mr Davis

I totally agree...and yes i and my partner are hypocrites too as we use the banking system still but what choice do we have as his wages are paod straight in...ask for wages to be paid in cash and you're told 'sorry no can do' so what option do we have?
One thing we do as soon as he's paid is get the money out so they have less time to use it...but that makes no difference really because as soon as we spend it it goes back into the system!!...so at the moment they have got us on a string

I would love to be in a position to get out this system like many here i think, but like many i'm trapped to a degree and 'awoke' to late to make the changes, if i could do it all over no way would i be living this way

much love

[blake]

I'm all in favour of "action" threads rather than "idle theory" threads.

Bitcoin may provide a solution although I'm not in favour of a cashless society.

The "Crash JP Morgan buy Silver" campaign is a worthwhile one. I am with you Max Keiser.

I would say that if you are involved in one of those activities whilst protesting the banks and yet still using their services I think calling someone a hypocrite would be a bit harsh.

Hello Lochinvar,

I wonder why you are not in favor of a cashless society? I am totally opposed to one, so I am in agreement with you. Now, the bankers would love a cashless society, but what would everyday humans give up by going along with the CONVENIENCE of a cashless society? What will life be like when we have NO CHOICES left?

Silver is good. Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone bought a silver dollar or two! The winter holidays are coming up; guess what I am buying everyone on my gift list! Well, it won't be much of a surprise for them, I have been gifting silver dollars for a while; and some of them are now getting my point.

Lochinvar, I can not judge you or anyone else. It is up to all of us to take information, or not; and look in the mirror, or not, to see how, if in anyway, if that information, observation, idea, or situation may, or may not, be applied to their action, or behavior.

I quoted a definition from a dictionary on the word, hypocrite. Taking that definition, I have been applying it to what people write compared to their daily actions.

To me, if one understands the corruption of the monetary system, and continues to patronize it while being in a position to STOP using some, if not all of the banking services than that human fits the description of a hypocrite as described by Webster's Dictionary.

People rationalize for many reasons. It is very sad when humans choose to support what they know is wrong because it’s CONVENIENT. Many things worth having, like freedom and privacy, is not always CONVENIENT, it take extra effort. Having children is not always easy or convenient, they take extra effort; but aren’t they the treasures of the world.

To me, the bottom line, IN MY OPINION and FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, while REMEMEBRING THAT your OPINION and YOUR PERSPECTIVE is equally valid in this discussion, is that if a human buys silver, protests wall street, because they understand the foundational corruption of the monetary and banking system, and yet they still use all of the banks services, while they are in position to stop using some, if not all banking services, then I will call it as defined in the dictionary, that human is a hypocrite in the area concerning the monetary system.

IF ON THE OTHER HAND, that human has been totally trap, and cannot even take cash out of his/her account to buy the groceries, then that Human has had all choices taken away from them, and is being dictated to, until that human figures out how to slowly extract him/herself from this sinister system. It is a system that so many recognize as corrupt, but go along with it and patronizes it because it is SO COVENIENT, and in the process of basking in that CONVENIENCE, they too have lost choisces along the way. So the person who is trapped, and has no choice ,is not a hypocrite, they were just sucked into the system, help along by all humans who use the system for their CONVENIENCE when they KNOW how corrupt it is, and how it is taking people's choices away, taking people's wealth away, taking people's privacy away. taking people's dignity away, let alone knowing that it is destroying the stability of OUR country or shall we say THE WORLD! These are Big consequences for a little CONVENIENCE. So to repeat, if a human is trapped, my heart goes out them, if a human is not trapped, yet understands and complains, and yet does nothing but continues to use all of the banking system servics......those are the people that need to look in the mirror and see their part in enslaving those who are stuck in the system and can' t get out.

A dictionary definition is not harsh.... it is simply is.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Lochinvar]

I'm all in favour of "action" threads rather than "idle theory" threads.

Bitcoin may provide a solution although I'm not in favour of a cashless society.

The "Crash JP Morgan buy Silver" campaign is a worthwhile one. I am with you Max Keiser.

I would say that if you are involved in one of those activities whilst protesting the banks and yet still using their services I think calling someone a hypocrite would be a bit harsh.

Hello Lochinvar,

I wonder why you are not in favor of a cashless society? I am totally opposed to one, so I am in agreement with you. Now, the bankers would love a cashless society, but what would everyday humans give up by going along with the CONVENIENCE of a cashless society? What will life be like when we have NO CHOICES left?

Silver is good. Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone bought a silver dollar or two! The winter holidays are coming up; guess what I am buying everyone on my gift list! Well, it won't be much of a surprise for them, I have been gifting silver dollars for a while; and some of them are now getting my point.

Lochinvar, I can not judge you or anyone else. It is up to all of us to take information, or not; and look in the mirror, or not, to see how, if in anyway, if that information, observation, idea, or situation may, or may not, be applied to their action, or behavior.

I quoted a definition from a dictionary on the word, hypocrite. Taking that definition, I have been applying it to what people write compared to their daily actions.

To me, if one understands the corruption of the monetary system, and continues to patronize it while being in a position to STOP using some, if not all of the banking services than that human fits the description of a hypocrite as described by Webster's Dictionary.

People rationalize for many reasons. It is very sad when humans choose to support what they know is wrong because it’s CONVENIENT. Many things worth having, like freedom and privacy, is not always CONVENIENT, it take extra effort. Having children is not always easy or convenient, they take extra effort; but aren’t they the treasures of the world.

To me, the bottom line, IN MY OPINION and FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, while REMEMEBRING THAT your OPINION and YOUR PERSPECTIVE is equally valid in this discussion, is that if a human buys silver, protests wall street, because they understand the foundational corruption of the monetary and banking system, and yet they still use all of the banks services, while they are in position to stop using some, if not all banking services, then I will call it as defined in the dictionary, that human is a hypocrite in the area concerning the monetary system.

IF ON THE OTHER HAND, that human has been totally trap, and cannot even take cash out of his/her account to buy the groceries, then that Human has had all choices taken away from them, and is being dictated to, until that human figures out how to slowly extract him/herself from this sinister system. It is a system that so many recognize as corrupt, but go along with it and patronizes it because it is SO COVENIENT, and in the process of basking in that CONVENIENCE, they too have lost choisces along the way. So the person who is trapped, and has no choice ,is not a hypocrite, they were just sucked into the system, help along by all humans who use the system for their CONVENIENCE when they KNOW how corrupt it is, and how it is taking people's choices away, taking people's wealth away, taking people's privacy away. taking people's dignity away, let alone knowing that it is destroying the stability of OUR country or shall we say THE WORLD! These are Big consequences for a little CONVENIENCE. So to repeat, if a human is trapped, my heart goes out them, if a human is not trapped, yet understands and complains, and yet does nothing but continues to use all of the banking system servics......those are the people that need to look in the mirror and see their part in enslaving those who are stuck in the system and can' t get out.

A dictionary definition is not harsh.... it is simply is.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis
Sadly your responses are riddled with contradiction and this makes the condescension harder to bear. Like Jorr above I will be trying to avoid your threads in future.

[blake]

Curious about the ethics involved in promoting and advancing a methodology of bringing about a deliberate collapse of the existing system upon a largely unsuspecting and under prepared majority of people.

So if my use of the current system, whilst holding out for a smarter solution which avoids post collapse chaos for the majority, means I'm a hypocrite...I think I can live with that.

Hello Mad Hatter,

I would say if that were true. If you could really hold out for a smarter and more ethical system, and that wasn't just wishful thinking, then my hat off to you. However, from what I have witnessed personally, this economic problem has been in the face of everyone, for decades, for those who have not had their heads in the sand. Ron Paul was talking about these issues over twentyfive years ago. The derviative issue was known about years ago. So if no one came up with a solution in the last thrity, twenty or even ten years, what makes you think a last minute solution can be manifested, in favor of freedom and for the average human? Have the bankers, and polticians suddenly taken on a new menatlity and lost all their greed and need for power? If everyday humans do not take action to take back their financial power, and become part of the restructuring of the new economy, humans will be in the pains of agnony that has been not seen in the United States since on the battle fields of the Civil War. No matter how this new economy is played out, there is going to be pain. How we can limit that pain, all depends if the average human is going to take action or sit back and let those who have been making the decisons for the past twenty years or so continue to make the decisions. We need a revolution of the people. I am hoping for a bloodless revolution. But as long as people like CONVENIENCE. That CONVENEINCE is leading most humans into the perpetual pain of being locked into the metaphorical ball and chain. Your papers please!

I really would like to know what you are seeing that I don't see. Is this all wishful thinking on your part, or is your statement based on any concrete evidence that a REAL ethcal solution is in the wings and the humans just have to sit and be patient until the power that be announce it to them?

SIncerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

To make an alternative view on the definition of Hipocracy ... (my opinion)

In my opinion everyone is a hypocrite - it is just the degree to which that is expressed that varies. But it also may indicate the mental desire to be more, to be better, where the behaviours have not quite caught up yet. For me it is not really a black and white concept and is actually caused by behaviour induced by the delta between perceived "reality" and expressed "reality" (lying to oneself). My 2 cents ;)

Hello Dedukshyn,

Well said and I agree. I am wondering if you could be just as eloquent in saying more on hypocrisy but relating it to human behavior and how humans use the present monetary system?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[learninglight]

Hi again Mr Davis....we are all friends here so would it be possible to call you by your first name as Mr Davis sounds rather formal to me :)

My ideal way of living would be something along the lines of how they live in the film 'The Green Beautiful', a wonderful film where evryone is equal, evrything is shared and ALL are loved and cared for...and NO they don't have money

Here is a clip for those who haven't seen it i highly recommend it :)

b8m3Vy8bto4

much love

[Dennis Leahy]

Hello All,

I don't know how anyone defines a hypocrite, but the Webster dictionary defines it as: "a person who pretends to be what he or she is not, one who pretends to be better than is really so. "

Whereever I go, people complain about the banks, and yet they feed the beast by using its services and rationalizing why they need to patronize the beast. The below article states as many writers have written before to STOP USING THE BANKS. I am in agreement that anyone protesting the banks and wallstreet, and yet uses their services, are cowardly hypocrites. ...

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis


... if people are complaining about the fraud in our centralized banking system, why is it that it is more than likely that 99 percent of the Avalonians are still aiding and abetting the beast by using its services? I have little tolerance for people who complain but rationalize why they can't take action. I am curious as to how anyone can rationalize why they still are writing checks, doing electronic banking, using debit cards etc etc when they complain so loudly about the fraud. To me that is a hypocrite.

...

Humans want the bankers to stop the fraud, yet they refuse to acknowledge their own part in keeping the fraud alive.

So anyone who is a hypocrite ,according to Webster's dictionary, concerning the support of the banking system, this thread is aimed at you. Unfortunately, that means 99 percent of the population....

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

I simply do not have the time to spend at Avalon that I did before, and have become very reluctant to jump into a thread and offer an opinion - especially an opinion in opposition to the OP's - because I do not have the time to come back and make it into an ongoing conversation.

But every so often, I feel compelled to make some noise, offer an opposing viewpoint "for what it's worth" and not really intend to babysit this thread to see if the OP or anyone is expecting a conversation.

Observations:
Blaming the victim: citizens are victims of banks and banker's scams. Very few people have the knowledge to have been immune for a lifetime to the professional psychology employed in advertising/marketing banks and banking services. In fact, if the banks and bankers hadn't gone from greedy to astoundingly, amazingly, apocalyptically greedy, everyone would be numb to their scam. It would be business as usual.

Banks perform a service. Money has a function. This is the paradigm that we were born into. It never seemed strange, or wrong, or evil to most people - dare I say 99% of us had no clue of the "money as debt" or "debt as money" scam. There are few Andrew Jacksons, and fewer still that listen to them.

I agree with pretty much everything in the article cited, and find it odd that after reading that article that someone would take a leap from strategies to minimize the oligarchical power of banks, to declaring someone a hypocrite if they do not completely divorce from banks. This is a complex problem, interwoven with society. This isn't McDonald's, and not something we can simply dismiss with a wave of the hand. The way the system is set up right this moment and tomorrow, and the day after (until extreme banking reform occurs) some functions of society have been rendered impossible or cost prohibitive without the use of credit cards (the plastic representation of a bank.) For example, try flying, booking a hotel, or renting a car without a credit card. Will an airline even take cash? (hotels and car rental agencies will not) If an airline will take cash, and unless you want to pay $800 (for a $400 ticket) the day you walk into an airport, then you'd have to buy the ticket in advance. For me, that a 5 hour round trip to the regional airport - an extra 5 hour round trip in addition to the trip to the airport on the day of the flight.

If you live in a small to medium-sized city, it is likely that some of the goods that you want are simply not locally available, or where locally available are priced so high they are not affordable. Some of this (most of this) is frivolous consumerism, but some non-frivolous examples might be specific vitamins, organic food that cannot be grown in my climate, a water filtering setup that could supply safe drinking water in case of a disaster. In some cases (for example the vitamins) you may find a local mom-and-pop store that will sell a bottle of vitamins for $35 that you can buy from a cooperative elsewhere for $15. (So, this isn't about comparing Walmart to locally-owned small businesses.) Virtually all "mail order" shopping and Internet shopping is credit card only.

I would recommend to people looking for a home loan or a car loan to go to a credit union, not a bank. But what do you say to people who are barely making ends meet and who already have a bank loan? Do you recommend to them that they immediately apply at the credit union, to switch the loan from the bank to the credit union, incurring thousands in closing costs and appraisal fees? How about the fact that right now, many people's homes will not appraise high enough to get a loan without tens of thousands of dollars of additional down payment?

The article cited left me feeling empowered, gave me strategies to make a transition away from big banks. Having a finger wagged at me and being called a hypocrite is a shame-based psychological ploy that is dis-empowering and negative. I suspect that the OP's intent may have been to underscore the article, but if so, it missed its mark.

Dennis

[blake]

Dear Mr Davis,
I'd like to thank you for this interesting thread and for the valuable advice that you gave us in your first post. I am sorry that the emphasis here though has been on hypocrisy. As has already been stated, we are all hypocrites to a degree. We are all at a different stage of our awakening. Some of us are only just realizing what is happening in the world, some of us started waking up years ago and have done a lot to move out of the matrix, some of us woke up a long time ago and have been a bit lazy or maybe unable to move out of the control of the matrix because of the need to support our families or just to survive.
I am glad you thought my opening post was interesting. However, it is not my intention to give anyone advice. In this thread I am merely sharing my opinions and my perspectives, and responding to the opinions and perspectives that are shared with me.

Communication, is interesting, but can be complex as many factors come into play as we each use our own filters of life experiences to interpret what another is conveying. Some are offended by the same words that may be inspiring to another. Some may read a post and have it trigger unpleasant memories, or feelings when the actual words of the post are objectively not offensive at all. This thread, probably because of its title, as forecast by one of the earlier posters on this thread, said that with this thread I would not make me any friends. I understand it is a touchy topic for many. And as I wrote that poster I wasn’t looking for friends, just a polite sharing of opinions and perspectives.

It appears that some posters only like to superficially look at a topic, and are not comfortable with my more persistent digging, in trying to get deeper into the topic. So please understand, I do understand that everyone is at a different stage. But it would be good if posters could read the post with a stronger objective filter, rather than an emotional filter which can occasionally lead to some posters taking the posts personally, instead on taking it in the spirit of a friendly debate or sharing of perspectives.


Could we move away from the word 'hypocrisy' and stop shouting 'mea culpa' and feeling guilty.


Perhaps another thread needs to be start by another poster. This thread is focused on the monetary system and how “aware” people still use the system, and how that behavior may, or may not align with Webster’s dictionary of the word hypocrite within this limited focus.

I understand some people are not ready to look at their behavior in a mirror, and perhaps those are the people “feeling” guilty. To them, I apologize that they had that reaction, and I would suggest that they should pick a different thread to follow. I am disappointed that posters, just don’t automatically do that. There are so many threads to follow. Why read a thread that makes them uncomfortable.

I have been very consistent and forthright about the parameter of the discussion. I am sorry if anyone missed the point of the thread, or was offended by anything I may have written. This thread is simply polite, intellectual sparing about a very real issue. Those who are uncomfortable need only pick another thread to read. Just as I suggest shunning banks, posters can shun my threads. I take no offense with any poster who decides this thread just isn’t where they want to spend their valuable time on. I, personally, plan to stay within the parameters of the discussion, in hopes that the discussion could get deeper .


We fall into the hands of the PTB when we feel guilty and helpless. This is just what they want and what their religions have been brainwashing us to do for thousands of years.
Could we, please, start talking about the practical ways in which we can beat the present system?


I gave my opinion and perspective on what we can do. What are your’s within the parameters of this thead?


It would be really helpful if members of the forum who have set up their own cooperatives for cultivating food and bartering could give us some practical advice or inspiration from their experiences, or on how to live without the banks or to limit our exchange with them, for example. This, in my opinion, would do much more for us and society than calling each other hypocrites or feeling guilty. We need to feel responsible, not guilty, and start doing something practical to change this situation. Can we change the title of the thread to "What can we do to get out of the clutches of the banks" for instance?

I think that would be a great title for another thread. Although, those thoughts would be welcomed on this thread. I hope you start the thread, as I will not have too much time to do another thread for a while. Personally I think we all know of many ways to do this already. It is my opinion that a main barrier is not having discipline to take action. I do urge you to start that thread



Thanks again for the valuable information that you gave us in your first post. I hope that we will be able to expand on what you advised us to do and not waste this opportunity.
As I addressed you as Mr Davis, I feel I should finish with "yours sincerely" but will just say "Bye" :-)
Thank you, for taking your valuable time to share your views. I do appreciate your comments

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

In this one particular area of life, I am not a hypocrite. Because of the banks, I changed over to a local neighborhood credit union years ago.

I also have been a vegetarian for decades because I can take this quiet and open stand against abusive animal farming....besides, I can no longer chew the flesh of my friends.:sad:

Hello Snowbird,

Good to hear of your decison. Such decisive action is good for freedom. I personally think that if everyone just took that one step of moving their account into a local credit union, it would send a huge message. I also hope you pay in cash as much as possible :)!

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Tony]

I don't think you really understand banker.


YUhb0XII93I

[mosquito]

Thank you Dennis - I for one miss your intelligent and eloquent posts.

[learninglight]

Hi MR D

Quote....It appears that some posters only like to superficially look at a topic, and are not comfortable with my more persistent digging, in trying to get deeper into the topic. So please understand, I do understand that everyone is at a different stage. But it would be good if posters could read the post with a stronger objective filter, rather than an emotional filter which can occasionally lead to some posters taking the posts personally, instead on taking it in the spirit of a friendly debate or sharing of perspectives.

Quote....I understand some people are not ready to look at their behavior in a mirror, and perhaps those are the people “feeling” guilty. To them, I apologize that they had that reaction, and I would suggest that they should pick a different thread to follow. I am disappointed that posters, just don’t automatically do that. There are so many threads to follow. Why read a thread that makes them uncomfortable.

Qoute....I have been very consistent and forthright about the parameter of the discussion. I am sorry if anyone missed the point of the thread, or was offended by anything I may have written. This thread is simply polite, intellectual sparing about a very real issue. Those who are uncomfortable need only pick another thread to read. Just as I suggest shunning banks, posters can shun my threads. I take no offense with any poster who decides this thread just isn’t where they want to spend their valuable time on. I, personally, plan to stay within the parameters of the discussion, in hopes that the discussion could get deeper


After reading this i for 1 am off this condescending thread!!!!..........Condescension is a show of disdain and superiority in which the condescending person patronizes, or considers him/herself superior and "descends" to the level of, the disdained person.[

much love

Ms King

[blake]

I am going to have to politely disagree with blake. The point of not using the banks is not the real issue. The real issue is determining is humanity should be directed and manipulated by a small group(s) of people with the majority getting to have a say in the discussion, if there even is a discussion being had be these groups. Everybody believes, well not most people who think critically, that capitalism is a good thing. The reason for this is because they see the accomplishments the Leviathan makes and it makes them happy to see things "moving forward."


People do not openly protest the wars en masse because once again they love to see the arm of the Leviathan smash things with such efficacy. Some, indeed many, might argue that we need to take a step backwards and return to a simpler life style, much like that of the tribes of the past and some tribes today. I for one do not care to partake in this reality. It would be a step in a direction I prefer not to go. I have been part of a tribe and it would not suit me to do so again.
I, in fact I would bet that most of us, incarnated on this planet at this time for the sole/soul purpose of helping move this Leviathan into what it is supposed to be used for: something simliar to what we know as the Federation. Im not talking wishy washy, soonists that Nidle is supposedly in contact with in talking Jean Luc Picard.

Smashing Corporations should not be the goal. Smashing banks should not be the immediate goal. Banks should be run by the people for the benefit of the people, with NO USURY.Just like out government it might need dismantling and the putting back together once it is clean of the certain influences. Eventually, banks should not exist because we should realize that we all own nothing and the resources we share are finite in certain terms. We need to (re)discover the ability of being able to stretch finite into infinite. Switching to a credit Union is not helping because it only shifts power minimally. Honestly, you need to open accounts up with the banks and help feed the beast. The only way withdrawing works is if everybody does it. Even if, which is highly unlikely, you got all the people on this website to do as you ask it would not effect the banks. It would require corporate persons doing this as well to truly achieve what you hope. I prefer the opposite. I will keep my account, which really does not have all that much in it, and I will feed it. The banks are almost fat enough to be constantly in everyones view. They need more food not less to maintain the visibility they have achieve in the last several years. Do you really want to undo the damage they did to themselves with the bailouts?

You are playing a game in which the system is totally under control by the opponent. No actions you take against that system will do anything to it at this point. Lets say Gary McKinnon is telling the truth. Look what his actions achieve him. Yeah he knows certain items but it does not matter because most humans do not. Shifting your money from Banks to credit unions is re arranging the deck chairs on the titanic and wondering why the Rock 'e' fellars have not been seen on the ship. Your time would be far better spent on other humans thoughts and the gravity they create. Ideas have weight, not in the Newtonian sense, but attraction is a characteristic that they have. When another person thinks a thought it generates a vibration. The more people with this vibration the higher the intensity of this vibration. Eventually enough people will realize how ridiculous our current system is and they will no longer desire it. When most people, which is currently the case espcially in other countries that are not "Western", stop wanting this system we will have a change. However, with this manner it will require little to no destructive creation. We should not destroy banks, we should use them to feed and clothe the world. We should use them for good as long as people think banks are neccessary. The very second people realize that we can share resources of this planet and not have to worry about ownership then the banks will no longer be needed.

I would be careful throwing blame on other people blake, because I am willing to bet that you are not in true alignment at all times. By this I mean alignment of thought, action, word, and reflection. If you are, then more power to you and keep up the good work. The vibrations you are creating are doing far more than moving assets around the system would ever do. If not, work on the gravity wells of the ideas you wish to manifest, and not ridicule others for hypocrisy.



Hello 9ofclubs,

Thank you for your thoughts and perspectives, some I agree with, some I don’t. But that is pretty natural in the realm of humans, and it does help keep the circulating of ideas, that sometimes, eventually lead to better ideas and solutions, and keeps them energized and moving.

The fact that the banks are imploding by their own weight of greed is true; and from my understanding it was designed to imploded under its own weight since the Jekyll Island meeting, back in the early 1900s; with the goal, that by time the banking system imploded, all the wealth of the people and the hard assets of the world would have been transferred into the hands of the few, giving them total dictatorship over the rest of us. I believe that to be true.

Yet, some humans believe , as I am sure you are aware of, that it was really only since the eighties that they decided to go full steam ahead and use the ever expanding credit system to get infrastructure in place, and feed the world, until the system crashed. Then with the crashing of the monetary system they would create a new economic system designed to bring financial security and equality to all. Perhaps it is true, but I wouldn’t structure my life on that premise. It sounds like a fairy tale to me. And that is something, I think, that many humans would like to believe, because it takes all the responsibly out of their hands, and for those who have locked themselves into being a perpetual victim, it helps them to believe that the knight in shining armor, who shows up in fairy tales only, will break the chains of their financial enslavement.

I agree with you that when people start using a local credit union instead of the bank, that it is like rearranging chairs on the Titanic. My perspective on supporting people doing that is at least, they are psychologically taking a step away from the banks, and are starting to think local business. I am a huge supporter of supporting my community, even if its costs me a few more dollars to buy an item in my community rather than another county, state or country. For example, I think many people love to hang out in bookstores. But, at least where I am, all the local, independent bookstores went out of business years ago, primary to their lost of local customers to the big chains. And now the big chains are going out of business due to online business. I miss my local bookstores. I hear people now complaining about how there is no bookstore within an hours distance. Do I have to explain why they are responsible for this loss in our community? Will these humans ever look in the mirror to see how their choices added to the destruction of the local business in our community? These people are not stupid people, but they often limit their focus to their immediate need, and many times greed, without thinking about their loyalty to the community that they live in that supports them is so many ways they just take for granted. So, I do agree changing to a local credit union isn’t doing much of anything to hurt the beast, per se. It is exactly as you wrote, it is merely arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

But I do believe psychological moves can give strength to eventually understand the bigger picture. And the bigger picture might be, and probably is different for you than it is for me. I believe in freedom. I believe in the ethics of unalienable rights. I believe you can’t have wealth without out privacy. I believe the world is an entangled mess. I believe we all are controlled by money. I believe a small group of humans have commandeered our power over money. I do not believe in war. And yet that is where we are all headed, and, I believe, it will not just be in a far away land that few of us ever visit in the flesh.

America, at least how I was raised, was suppose to represent freedom for humans to live their lives as they saw fit, without doing harm to their neighbor. So to me, using a cash dollar, fiat or real, is the only way left for humans to choose to be free, while sending a strong message to those who do rule, that the ninety-nine percent are not going to just be sheep while blindly and willingly abide by their corrupt and often humiliating rules. Plus it does affect the banks somewhat. And at the very least, the banks has less control of that cash, in tracking it, or your access to your purchasing power. The banks can shut down your digital accounts. They can deny a human access to their accounts for any false security threat, and call on a fraud investigation that could deny you your money indefinitely. While, if you have cash and acess to your cash, you always have the purchasing power to at least buy food and what you need when you need it. Humans have been trained to believe that their money is safe in the bank and that they will be able to have that money when they want it. And maybe at one time that was true, but it is not true any more. I do believe that those with mega dollars in the bank will starve when the crash comes, because they will not have access to their accounts. Banks have changed their perspective: when we were on a gold standard, the banks thought of the money in your account as your money. Today, the banks think that once you deposit your money into the bank, it is now the bank’s money until they decide to release it back to you. So the cash thing is psychologically important as well as practically important, as well as making a huge political statement.

I believe, the next economic system will be cashless, and some say they will adapt to whatever system emerges. But has anyone ever thought through what happens to the last of our freedoms, and choices after a cashless society is imposed on us? I think not by a lot of the responses that have appeared on this thread. But then again, some humans believe they need only to sit on the sidelines, keep playing by the rules by those who control their lives, and when the world economic crash comes, magically the new system will level the economic playing field, and be loving and good. I just can’t see ANY hard core evidence of that happening.

I agree with you in the strength of thoughts. And I believe if one associates cash with freedom, and one uses cash in their daily transaction, how many times is the thought of freedom being resonated through a person’s psyche into the world, while at the same time doing other very good things

Enjoyed your post,

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Ps I am not sure on what basis you think I have ridiculed others for hypocrisy. A discussion on hypocrisy, of those who might still be using the banking services while complaining about the banks and the monetary system, is not ridiculing anyone. This thread was and is a general discussion. No finger was pointed at anyone. Perhaps, unfortunately, there might have been some posters who were experiencing psychological triggers, beyond my control, that may have manifested to something like the old saying: “that if the shoe fits”. But I can not see how I ridiculed anyone. But then again, humans do interpret words and gestures differently, and for those who did interpret any post as offensive to them, I have apologized.

[blake]

Blake, do you protest against your government (I'm not sure which country you are in) by paying no tax at all?

Hello Lochinvar,

That is a very interesting subject but is off topic. The topic of this thread is the monetary and banking system and one's relationship with that system. If one is protesting the banks, or complaining about the banks, and yet still use the banks services ,when they have choices, no matter how inconvenient some of those choices may be, are they not being hypocritcal?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis
I see you have dodged the question.

Staying truly on topic would involve an answer with a number (in response to "How many..?"). Nobody has done that yet and as such are all off topic.

If you can't see the connection between government and banking then not only are you living in the dark but you are missing the point of your protest (as well as putting people off with your wording of it).

Out of interest, do you use an internet cafe for these posts or do you pay your internet service provider in cash?

Glad you started a thread about doing things though. Maybe the thread on "Forms of action" can be re-ignited.

Yours sincerely

T. Geithner

Ps My answer is 10. Am I close?

Hello Lochinvar/ T. Geithner

I see you have a sense of humor.
Of course government is in bed with banking. And that is a huge topic with so many tangents to delve into so it is not within the parameters of this discussion.

Do you remember when you were in high school, and were required to come up with a topic to research and write about? I assume you had that experience, maybe not. But if you did, you may have expereinced telling your teacher you wanted to write about, let say, "the connection between banking and government". Your teacher may have suggested to you that the topic needed to be narrowed down becasue what you wanted to write about was too broad to get deeply into any one aspect of it. So you had to choose one aspect of govenrment and banking to write about. I guess, in a way, that is what I am doing with this thread. So many posters have brought up great ideas that I would love to discuss becasue they are relevant to the topic as a side tangent, or they are so interesting. But I am trying to keep the focus very limited so we all can get deeper into it, and not get lost on other tangents no matter if they are are somewhat connected ,or extremely interesting. This is not a thread on the connection between government and banking as I have explained before.

I have not asked any poster any personal question about their behavior. We can not have a polite, and candid discussion if posters were asked to disclose their specific behaviors. Some have voluntered and disclosed some, at their discreetion. However, we all are entitled to our right to our privacy when discsussing such sensitive topics. We are discussing the behavior of humans at large, not individual humans, where they might be targeted with unsavory comments by other posters, who may forget their manners from time to time.

So not only did I dodge your personal questions that were directed to me and not at the other hundreds of Avalonians, I chose not to answer you becasue my personal behavior and personal action, like everyone elses, is between me and my conscience; and is none of your business;nor is it condusive to a polite debate.

Forgive me for directing my frankness, regarding your questions, directly at you,

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Lochinvar]

Blake, do you protest against your government (I'm not sure which country you are in) by paying no tax at all?

Hello Lochinvar,

That is a very interesting subject but is off topic. The topic of this thread is the monetary and banking system and one's relationship with that system. If one is protesting the banks, or complaining about the banks, and yet still use the banks services ,when they have choices, no matter how inconvenient some of those choices may be, are they not being hypocritcal?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis
I see you have dodged the question.

Staying truly on topic would involve an answer with a number (in response to "How many..?"). Nobody has done that yet and as such are all off topic.

If you can't see the connection between government and banking then not only are you living in the dark but you are missing the point of your protest (as well as putting people off with your wording of it).

Out of interest, do you use an internet cafe for these posts or do you pay your internet service provider in cash?

Glad you started a thread about doing things though. Maybe the thread on "Forms of action" can be re-ignited.

Yours sincerely

T. Geithner

Ps My answer is 10. Am I close?

Hello Lochinvar/ T. Geithner

I see you have a sense of humor.
Of course government is in bed with banking. And that is a huge topic with so many tangents to delve into so it is not within the parameters of this discussion.

Do you remember when you were in high school, and were required to come up with a topic to research and write about? I assume you had that experience, maybe not. But if you did, you may have expereinced telling your teacher you wanted to write about, let say, "the connection between banking and government". Your teacher may have suggested to you that the topic needed to be narrowed down becasue what you wanted to write about was too broad to get deeply into any one aspect of it. So you had to choose one aspect of govenrment and banking to write about. I guess, in a way, that is what I am doing with this thread. So many posters have brought up great ideas that I would love to discuss becasue they are relevant to the topic as a side tangent, or they are so interesting. But I am trying to keep the focus very limited so we all can get deeper into it, and not get lost on other tangents no matter if they are are somewhat connected ,or extremely interesting. This is not a thread on the connection between government and banking as I have explained before.

I have not asked any poster any personal question about their behavior. We can not have a polite, and candid discussion if posters were asked to disclose their specific behaviors. Some have voluntered and disclosed some, at their discreetion. However, we all are entitled to our right to our privacy when discsussing such sensitive topics. We are discussing the behavior of humans at large, not individual humans, where they might be targeted with unsavory comments by other posters, who may forget their manners from time to time.

So not only did I dodge your personal questions that were directed to me and not at the other hundreds of Avalonians, I chose not to answer you becasue my personal behavior and personal action, like everyone elses, is between me and my conscience; and is none of your business;nor is it condusive to a polite debate.

Forgive me for directing my frankness, regarding your questions, directly at you,

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

I'd like to change my answer from 10 to 11. Thanks.

[blake]

Mr Davis. How old are you? 80? I am 40 now, and I don't sign off my comments as Mr Lister, which is my real surname. Is that a sign of wanting respect by signing off as Mr. Davis or am I missing a sense of irony from your post? I hope so. By the way, I agree with your message, but we all have to live inside the matrix for now. It's not practical to ask our employers to pay us in cash; that will never happen in today's society. We must think of a grander scale. But, alas, I can't think of a way to stop the power of the banks. Too many people are totally indebted to the bank (mortgage, loans,etc) to have a chance to change things. The bankers know this and that's why they have such power. Unless everybody who is indebted to the bank gives them the two fingers, we are f***ed. That needs a revoltion to start the process you desire. Who's going to be first to get things rolling? Fortunately, I have no debt, so I am all ears, but the vast majority of us are steeped so deep in debt, we need a fantastic plan so we all revolt together to make the change. Suggestions please Mr Davis (Blake).

Hello Thinking Allowed,

Well that gave me quite a chuckle. No, I am not eighty, far from it. No irony about how I sign my name; it's simply how I was brought up. I always sign my name like that with people I don't know. If I knew, you I would sign: sincerely, Blake.

When you write that the bankers have too much power that is key; becasue that power, in this debt-based economy is totally unethical, corrupt, and devastating to millions of people. The people need to take their financial power back. How do they do that? There are many ways but to me, a foundational way would be to wean themselves from the banks quickly, or slowly, whatever one can manage.

Oh, and by the way, congratulations on having no debt. That alone is a strong point for the side of freedom!

You are right about the chances of convincing your employer to pay you in cash are slim to none. But you don't have to follow suit, you can pay those who do work for you ,or provide you with a service in cash. How wonderful it is when people can pass on what is good and ethical instead pass on the corrupt action of financial paper. And for all you business people out there, you will just have to weigh what is important to you, and make as many changes as you can. I know it is hard for the small businessman to use cash becasue of his records for uncle sam. That is a different thread. But still, the businessman can use cash, at least sometimes. I know of a small business owner of a seasonal business. One year he told me that in one summer his company had to pay out thirtyfive thousand in credit card fees for accepting credit cards in his business transactions. He made the decison not to accept credit cards any more, and his company was thirtyfive thousand dollars richer the following summer. Now he doesn't even take checks, simply cash only.

So good to hear you have no debt. But are your writing checks, using debit cards, using credit cards, using ATMs, doing electronic banking, or transactions? You seem to have many more choices than others. I hope you choose to use cash, if for nothing else but to make a strong statement about freedom, choices and privacy.

Do we need a revolution? Of course we do! But who wants blood on the streets. How about a quiet one where people tell the government what they want by using cash only!!!!

I think it was tragic when they changed the bankruptcy laws. I wish humans would NOT feel guilty about bankruptcy in this debt based economy we have supported all these years with little protest. I think everyone should just walk away from their debt, connected to the finanacial system if they can have a solid plan, to stay safe and thrive.

I support Ron Paul, becasue at the very least he is getting the word out about a sound economy. And without a sound economy, and an honest monetary system ninetynine percent or more of the population will be slaves to the rest. People love choices, and choices give us power. But if we stop using our choice to use cash, soon we won't have that option, and then what tool will we have left except for blood on the streets. I don't want it to get to that point, do you? Keep the people's choices open, use cash or lose it!

Sincerely,

Mr Davis

I find it amusing that you see the use of fiat currency as the ultimate protest against the bankers.

I'm also amused by the fact you think voting changes things.

Peace and love.

Hello Lochinvar,

It weakens one arguements when one makes assumptions, and does not read carefully. Perhaps this is a way of fishing for more information?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

A big part of the problem is that most are like a rudderless boat, no direction.
They are not sure how to effect change without too much effort, so they just bumble on.

That's because they are still thinking linearly, and not holistically. We must begin to think in terms of interlocking circular systems. In order to study a system, it must be defined. Prior to now, most ppl thought no further about say, the electricity they used than the light switch that made it available to them. It didn't matter to them that the turbine, or generator creating the energy they were using was only 33% efficient with 63% of the input energy it took to create electricity wasted in the form of heat exchanged to thousands of gallons of potable water used to cool the generator. The end user flicks on his/her incandescent light bulb -totally unaware of the fact it is merely 10 % efficient in the use of the energy it recieves, which means that 90% of the energy used to light the room is wasted in heat. But then, if I am a brain surgen, or a trash collector, why should I be overly concerned with how much energy it takes to run a refrigerator, other than the bill I pay every month?

And isn't that also the truth? What about morals? What about ethics? A Doctor swears and oath to care for the sick. A trash collector must be there every week. What makes those who work in the energy field any different? Maybe it's because one has to go ten layers down in the profit market before they actually find an electrical engineer doing the work?

And what about not listening to the idiot who says, in order to grow an economy, we must contiunue to make things with short shelf lives? Do most know that 80% of the stuff we make is tossed in the dump?

Has anyone seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLBE5QAYXp8&feature=player_detailpage

Hi sygh,

Thanks for posting and sharing your thoughts. I have not seen the video, and unfortunately I don't have time to watch it. But the title says a lot. We do live in a throw away society, unfortunately. And how has that even entrapped us more with the monetary system? But then again, that is off topic; but would be a very interesting discussion.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Hello, new here, but I would just like to propose, that wether we want to or not, we are all hypocrite. At some level or not, we are lying to ourselves, about our comfort, the world we live in, and the world of tommorrow.

We will watch with shock horror and amazement at the various un-endable wars in the middle east, then hop into our "top-fuel dragsters" to take the kid's to school.

Don't wanna be deppressing, but the trap has been sprung, the bank's are not the overall problem. They feed it, with amazing power, but it us, the hypocrites that oil the machine, with our fear of not having enough fuel to come home again, ooh I could go on for hours on the subject.

It is also a trap of "hierarchy", no one element of the banking system with the education and reasoning that they have will back down and say "oh, let's take a break, drop the interest rate, scrap this abolish that" because it is fundamental to the socio-
political power-mongering that they don't, and that votes are won. We are part of a tribal system for the time being wether we chose it or not, and for the time being all victims of those with, supposedly, the biggest ball's.

As Douglas Adams wrote about Jesus, "until a man two thousand years ago was nailed to a tree , because he said 'wouldn't it be good if we were all nice to each other' "

Won't work, ever, until a real power crisis, and I'm not talking about fifty dollars the gallon. Then people will start standing up to the monetary system, or just the system in general.

I sooo wish to be self sufficient, I try, re-utilisation and recovery of the maximum so as not to be held by the "buy stuff to be happy" ethos, but it is almost impossible here in France, where banks are amongst the sneakiest in the world....

There's about five different subjects in my rambling post, but the best way to stop the banks power over us, is "don't bank." Bet you we can't...

Hello Oremis333,

Thank you for your post with all your thoughts. Each one worthy of its own thread that would lead to great discussions.
I did appreciate your opening lines. Your wrote:

" I would just like to propose, that wether we want to or not, we are all hypocrite. At some level or not, we are lying to ourselves, about our comfort, the world we live in, and the world of tommorrow.

We will watch with shock horror and amazement at the various un-endable wars in the middle east, then hop into our "top-fuel dragsters" to take the kid's to school. "

That is all sadly so true, in my expereince and in my opinion.

It will be interesting to watch, if it ever happens, the straw on the camel's back that ignites the masses into standing against the monetary system. I hope it is before gas is fifty dollars at the pump. What is it now in France?

You last line: "the best way to stop the banks power over us, is "don't bank." Bet you we can't..." Yes, that is a challenge for many; but I beleive that people can at least reduce their use of the bank as much as possible, and that just might have an impact on what they think they can do to us in the future. Maybe...maybe not.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Davidallany]

I am sorry but I am having a hard time understanding your point. I consider my self to be a very spiritual person. I also am impressed when a person's spirtual persuasions allows them to be a better human in this drama of life. However, this is not a thread on spiruality; it is a thread about the banking issue. And perhaps I am not understanding what you are conveying correctly, but my working definition of hypnocrite, for this thread, appears to be different from what you are expressing. And since hypocrisy vanishes on the spiritual level, according to your post, perhaps we can keep it on the mundane level where hypocrisy has cause deep injuries, and physical difficulties for many families who often are not able to even provide a peanut butter sandwich for their family at dinner time, becasue of banking practices that may have deprived families of their money.

I beleive there is a time for spirituality, and there is a time for dealing with the dramas of life. Somehow I can't see an eight-year-old being helped by "spiritual oneness" at dinner time when his hardworking parents can't provide him dinner. And I am sure that is a gentle example considering what some children in this world are facing everyday becasue of the hypocrisy of the adults in this world.
I am sure you have great spiritual wisdom. I am wondering how you bring that spirituality into the world of money and banking in this matrix system where people have physical needs.

It's quite alright blake.
Every person is responsible for creating reality and for recognizing that spiritual is the true essence of life, which is what people contemplate more and more as they get older and hopefully, wiser but especially when dying. Most people still don't get this, because they identify with what the matrix tells them, they worry too much about the physical body.

Being spiritual means having compassion for other, wanting to see them succeed, not digging a trap for them, and hoping they would fall. The Buddha said why do what you'll regret? Why bring tears upon yourself? Do only what you won't regret and fill yourself with joy.Everything starts by acceptance and forgiving one's self. Thoughts not harbored are just thoughts, but thoughts harbored are a sign of falling into wrong views. This can cause great confusion, suffering and hindrance on the path to realization. I think this will help you understand.

[blake]

Blake wrote:

Hello jorr lundstrom,

I understand that is a perspective and a strategy for many people. And to some extent it is true, and right depending, of course, on one's situation. Sometimes, for some people, all they can do is wait out the storm and look for their opportune moment to escape the trap. I did not see the movie you are referring to, so I may be misunderstanding your point. However, sometimes that strategy, in my opinion, is the lazy way out, or a way to rationalize a person's desire to put their head in the sand, or simply justify their lack of decent action becasue its inconvenient; especially if a person has the means to be pro active, and do their part to make a difference.

Sincerley,

Mr. Davis

You do not know me, nor how I live my life, nor how I have been living my life.

You dont know my plans or anything else about me. You may call me lazy, you

may call me stupid, or deluded or anything else you like. I live my life in the best

way I can and as I suppose you are not gonna live my life for me I prefer that you

dont try to master me, as all attempts in that way are totally useless both for you

and me.

Best regards,

Jorr

Hello jorr lundstrom,

I don't know if I am understanding you correctly, but you seem a bit miffed? I am not trying to "master you". Neither have I accused you of being stupid, lazy, or deluded. I agree, I do not know you, so how could I judge you, or even offer advice to you on how you live your life? I am so sorry if that is how you interpreted my posting. We are all captains of our own ship to decide how we live our lives. I am only sharing my opinions on the banking and present monetary systems, and doing intellectual sparing on the idea of the alledged hypocrisy that some may have with their relationship within theses systems. Nothing I post is directed personally to any other poster. It is all just intellectual sparing at the situations we all find ourselves in. It is not a personal attack, or judgement on ANY poster.

My apologies for any misunderstanding,

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Mr Davis, it was my mistake to participate in your thread from the beginning.

Lesson learned. Your way of handling my response really awoke sacred anger

in me. If I there after should have written wot I felt, I had been banned in

notime. There are a limit for honesty on the forum you know. I´ll stay away

from your threads. No problem.

Regards

Jorr

Hello Mr Lundstrom,

I am still quite puzzled what could have possibly brought about such intensity of anger. Different cultures, life styles etc? I really don't know. But I admire people who can control their tempers, and not let their anger control them. Obviously, you are such a man.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[blake]

So don't be so hard on yourselves folks, you use the tools that are there because there is little opportunity to do otherwise; you play by "their" rules for the simple reason that there is as yet no other game to play.

Opting out is not an easy thing to do, especially if you have others to think about, so take it one step at a time, and do what you feel comfortable doing. ;)

Isn't that what they want us to think - there is no other game to play? Life is becoming less comfortable by the day - inching forward in the wrong direction. Maybe a greater effort is a pretty good option right now. Withdrawing from the system as much as possible seems to be the most effective response.

You are right.... it isn't easy, but each time I make a change I feel a little more comfortable.

Warm wishes...

Hello Isthatso,

I agree.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

I - I am a hypocrite. I eat meat and yet I can't bear the farming methods that bring it to my plate. :(

Hello w1ndmill,

Thank you for your response. However, the issue of this thread is not meat, but the banking system. Are you also a hypocrite concerning the enslavement of the majority of the people by contributing to the bank's power by using the sevices of a bank, while at the same time complaining about the economy, or the fraud in the monetary system, or by actively participating in the "occupy" movement or the support of that movement?

The animal issue and the processing of meat is a huge concern, but again, it is not the topic in this thread.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis


I take your point Mr D but a hypocrite is a hypocrite. I go out to work - some days I work like a dog - to bring home the readies to feed, clothe and support my family AND TO PAY OFF CRIPPLING CREDIT CARD DEBT. My money goes straight into a bank account and then straight out again. I cannot see that not doing this and starving my family and living on the street will benefit them at all, so yes, I am a hypocrite.

Hello W1ndmill,

The parents that go out and work day in, and day out to support their families are the unsung heros of society in my opinion. And it is familes like yours who are caught up in a corrupt monetary system who suffer the most from the corruption. Do they have bankruptcy laws in the UK to give relief from the jaws of the sharks? I wish I had answers for you, but I don't. All I can suggest, if you can, pay cash for everyting or at least as much as you are able; but I understand, in your case, you might be so trapped by the system that even that is an impossibity for you.

I wish you well. And keep the faith that life will get easier. I don't beleive you are a hypnocrite as far as the banking industry is concerened. It just sounds like you got trapped by the system. And the system is designed to trap you. That is why I think it is so important for all individuals to stop using the banks or at least stop using them as much as possible until they can wean themselves off them completely.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Mr Davis,
I am by no means perfect. There are many things that get by me of a day. Sometimes, I feel at a loss as to how to go about changing the world around me. I actually agree that a person shouldn't use a bank, if that person understands the total consequence of using their service as unacceptable. I have little to no problem doing that; I don't have enough money in this world to worry about such lofty financials. I can simply remove the little I have, and close my account. Any bill I have to pay will cost me a pretty penny because I've found sending money through the US Postal Service is no longer protected from theft, as morals and ethics have run from the building. Catch-22 money orders are issued from banks. And, now that I know the US Postal Service is corrupt, I don't think I should use their services either. Well, now I will have to travel to pay any bill I have, unless I purchase strictly from local sources,. My world gets smaller and smaller as I type. Just one problem...

Money (i.e. the dollar) is fiat currency, not much more than an electrical buzz. The dollar is worth approximately $0.05 at this writing. Paying one's bills with the dollar is rather like cheating someone of their worth. I would suggest that when giving advise to others, it would be a good idea to follow through with the point you are trying to make by covering the bases of your arguement.

I will stress this point, I can quit the bank but I can't print my own money without getting arrested, even though I think my money would be worth more than what the dollar is worth today.

Hello sygh,

What is money is really another thread. If you are not familiar with the writings of Dr. Edwin Vieira on this topic, you might enjoy his work. He is not only a brilliant constitutional lawyer, who writes volumes about what has happened to America, but by far is one of, if not the authority on the history of American money. He has been active in some states, writing up the model legislation for state legislators to pass bills making gold and silver coins legal tender in their states in order to protect the citizens of those states against the crash of paper currency.

Currently, even though it is illegal to have a fiat currency, since the United States Constitution clearly states that only silver and gold can be used as money, all Americans have been locked into using this fiat money. We have lost our choice to use real money. Our only other choice if we do choose to use real money, is to be thrown in jail. And unfortunately this has been the fate of some Americans who have attempted to use silver to purchase items or pay debts.

Reading the writings and other literature of the founders of America, one can read for themselves why the founders chose to make only gold and silver coin legal tender, and why they vehemently opposed the fiat, debt based system that those in contemporary power reverted to, as good, but nonthinking Americans wanted to be saved, instead of being awake to the wolves stealing their wealth and liberty for a few convenient carrots.

Right now, as hard as it is, Americans still have a CHOICE as to whether to support the banking system or not. Presently, Americans no longer have a CHOICE to what they can use as legal tender. And soon Americans will not have a choice as to use the banking system or not. As the old saying goes, "use it or lose it"

Is it hard to try to avoid using the banking system as much as possible? Yes it is. They make it hard. First they wine and dine you with the carrots of convenience, and then once anestheizised to the pain of lost of privacy and freedom, they start blocking all choices to do with banking until everyone is trapped. So many are so happy munching on the carrots of CONVENIENCE, they have not only forgotten that they no longer have a choice, they have forgotten what liberty and being American means, and they hardly care about the freedom of choice for others.

So as long as we still have some choice, no matter how hard it is to follow through on, we had better use whatever choices that promote freedom that are still not yet illegal, before everyone is anesthetized into a drunken state of slavery. Think a while about what the alternative by is by not using our choices to make a strong political statement about liberty and freedom, while perhaps keeping a little bit of our privacy while helping others start thinking about the what freedom and having choices means. The alternative, by not saying no to the carrots of CONVIENCE, and the lack of choice to use or not use the banking system, is saying yes to the chains of a cashless society. And I do hope, at least the one thing that all freedom loving people can agree on and understand , is what the results would be on their personal lives and the lack of control over any wealth, no matter how meager it might be, once the cashless society become mandated to all.

I am sure you heard many times that freedom is not free. It takes hard work to build the muscles of courage, wisdom, and integrity to prevent tyranny from slowly encroaching upon your life until it has you totally checkmated with no choices at all.

I don't have to list all the choices we no longer have. So, in my opinion, short of a bloody revolution, in which we are all headed, it is better to use your choices now, in the name of perpetual liberty, before the average person has no choices at all with this coming cashless society already waiting in the wings.

And to those who think they will be saved, and can just continue to do what is convenient, instead of what is good and right for their freedom and that of posterity’s, perhaps those are very people who need to ponder deeply about where they are spiritualy.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

the timeline is already set for total failure. it doesn't matter if anyone is a hypocrite anymore. there is no stopping what has already been set in place. we can all do our part, we can all feel bad, we can all share responsibility for the total failure of a democracy, the fact is: the economy is going to fail, it is already set in stone. there is nothing that any of us can do to stop it.
corson

Hello corson,

That may be true indeed; but there is still, what is next? And if humans haven't willingly become responsible for how they contributed to the failing of this economy and the lost of our freedom and privacy, becasue of the carrots of conveniences and turning their attention away from inconvenients truths, how will they be any different for the fight of of getting freedom back? Or are these same humans going to blindly accept not having choices, becasue they haven't exercised their muscles of freedom for such a very long time. No matter what happens, it will be those who have become strong, those who have exercised their muscles of liberty and privacy and intergrity who survive to thrive once again. Those who have not built up their muscles of integrity, who want to be saved by a knight in shining armour, it will be those who will continue to be slaves and contribute to all human slavery, in my humble opinion.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Wot if there is something that can be done, and it is simply that you don't know that you don't know ?

Wot if I knew some good steps, but know that people would have difficulty recognizing, liking or grasping the suggestions ?

Wot if all I could do -- like I recognize a lot of other doing -- is pepper PA and other places with little pieces that people could digest ?

Then it would simply be a matter of time, some patience for ppl to digest these little nuggets of truth.

I'm mostly patient. I'm mostly calm. I'm still willing to pay attention to discover more dots. I'm used to preparing for the 2nd mile.

I believe most people would like to do the 'good thing,' just that what that 'good thing' is so foreign as to be unrecognizable.

Would ppl be willing to pay attention ? Would ppl be willing to pay more attention, if there was hope ?

How many times have I tripped over truths because I didn't see them ? -- 2 many times to count.

- 58



there is nothing that any of us can do to stop it.
corson

Hello 58andfixed,

All very eloquent and beautiful as usual. And I wish we all had time to discover those truths that we may have tripped over and ignored, however, there comes a time when time is no longer a luxury. In my opinion, time has run out. Either one moves in liberty and freedom, while supporting choices, or they continue on as a slave, while contributing to the slavery of others.

I do not see good things in the near future. People have run out of time. Those who have not supported freedom and choices, will now perpetuate us all into a bloodly revolution, simply because they bought into the conveniences of tryrany. It is sad, but this is how humans have played their options over and over throughout history. For centuries, humans never seem to learn their lessons of what is good and right, they always fall into the hands of the tryants because of their own personal greed, not becasue of the greed of the tryants.

For those who haven't learned the value of privacy, freedom and choices, they are all contributing to the coming terror in their own back yards. I do wish we all didn't have to go through this yet another time. But alas, it appears that we will.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Lord Sidious]

Hello 58andfixed,

All very eloquent and beautiful as usual. And I wish we all had time to discover those truths that we may have tripped over and ignored, however, there comes a time when time is no longer a luxury. In my opinion, time has run out. Either one moves in liberty and freedom, while supporting choices, or they continue on as a slave, while contributing to the slavery of others.

I do not see good things in the near future. People have run out of time. Those who have not supported freedom and choices, will now perpetuate us all into a bloodly revolution, simply becasuse they bought into the conveneinces of tryrany. It is sad, but this is how humans have played their options over and over throughout history. For centuries, humans never seem to learn their lessons of what is good and right, they always fall into the hands of the tryants becasue of their own personal greed, not becasue of the greed of the tryants.

For those who haven't learned the value of privacy, freedom and choices, they are all contributing to the coming terror in their own back yards. I do wish we all didn't have to go through this yet another time. But alas, it appears that we will.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

We will indeed have to go through it.
Again.
Because people are both lazy and think they are comfortable.
When this all turns to crap, the same people will cry out for someone to rescue them.
Yet we have been trying to show them how to catch their own fish for some time.
They didn't have the time or money then.
Too bad, how sad.
Next.

[Eagle]

Wot if there is something that can be done, and it is simply that you don't know that you don't know ?

Wot if I knew some good steps, but know that people would have difficulty recognizing, liking or grasping the suggestions ?

Wot if all I could do -- like I recognize a lot of other doing -- is pepper PA and other places with little pieces that people could digest ?

Then it would simply be a matter of time, some patience for ppl to digest these little nuggets of truth.

I'm mostly patient. I'm mostly calm. I'm still willing to pay attention to discover more dots. I'm used to preparing for the 2nd mile.

I believe most people would like to do the 'good thing,' just that what that 'good thing' is so foreign as to be unrecognizable.

Would ppl be willing to pay attention ? Would ppl be willing to pay more attention, if there was hope ?

How many times have I tripped over truths because I didn't see them ? -- 2 many times to count.

- 58



there is nothing that any of us can do to stop it.
corson

Hello 58andfixed,

All very eloquent and beautiful as usual. And I wish we all had time to discover those truths that we may have tripped over and ignored, however, there comes a time when time is no longer a luxury. In my opinion, time has run out. Either one moves in liberty and freedom, while supporting choices, or they continue on as a slave, while contributing to the slavery of others.

I do not see good things in the near future. People have run out of time. Those who have not supported freedom and choices, will now perpetuate us all into a bloodly revolution, simply because they bought into the conveniences of tryrany. It is sad, but this is how humans have played their options over and over throughout history. For centuries, humans never seem to learn their lessons of what is good and right, they always fall into the hands of the tryants because of their own personal greed, not becasue of the greed of the tryants.

For those who haven't learned the value of privacy, freedom and choices, they are all contributing to the coming terror in their own back yards. I do wish we all didn't have to go through this yet another time. But alas, it appears that we will.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis
Tme to get off the couch turn off the TV, plant your garden, batten down the hatches and help the old man cross the road. Ignorance and "all is well" is no longer applicalbe(never was)

[Dennis Jonathan]

The real question should be "who amongst us is not a hypocrite?"

It is my firm belief that hypocrisy is a myth. A way we have been trained to find fault in the ever changing dynamics of existence.

By the common definition, growth = hypocrisy, and stagnation = reliability.

This is not to justify or endorse lying, or intentional misdirection.

It is an important process to recognize our own hypocrisies and double standards, and choose to forgive them in others.

[58andfixed]

One perspective Blake:

There is quite a list of expected apocalypses. Here is but one link:

http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm

"According to Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts (1979), an Assyrian clay tablet dating to approximately 2800 BC was unearthed bearing the words "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common." "

Can you see how you are moving into fear ?

There is value in seeing and cutting each other much more slack.

There is time.

Yes, the coming changes are going to be nasty, uncomfortable and unjust.

Older generations could have paid better attention, however there is a very great awakening of late.

Just that more dots need to be discovered, comprehended and understood -- if we are to recognize sustainable, equitable solutions for future generations, and not simply REACT and grab what we simply believe.

Hang in there. Take a break. Heal within.

Pace yourself.

These are going to be very necessary tools to continue collaborating with others, examining more information, discerning through these coming events, and continue expanding our wisdom.

There will be a solution.

The problem has been eons in the making, and a solution won't be complete by this 5th of November.

We have to impliment tools to avoiding the self-divisive process first.

Solutions will come after.

I don't see this happening just yet.

- 58




In my opinion, time has run out. Either one moves in liberty and freedom, while supporting choices, or they continue on as a slave, while contributing to the slavery of others.

I do not see good things in the near future. People have run out of time.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

I think the content of this thread is similar to the one entitled "Want to defeat the banks?"
Maybe the mods will choose to merge?
Hello Tarka the Duck,

It is amazing how stomy and I how used the same article to make a point. However, my focus is, as I have brought up many times in the past, if people are complaining about the fraud in our centralized banking system, why is it that it is more than likely that 99 percent of the Avalonians are still aiding and abetting the beast by using its services? I have little tolerance for people who complain but rationalize why they can't take action. I am curious as to how anyone can rationalize why they still are writing checks, doing electronic banking, using debit cards etc etc when they complain so loudly about the fraud. To me that is a hypocrite. That is a very harsh word to call anyone. But the problem we have is not the banking system, becasue that could easily be corrected by the majority of humans if they were not hypocrites. Most of the evil in our society stays a problem becasue of the hypocrisy of human nature, and combine that with lhuman laziness, and many humans who prefer the sweeping of uncomfortable facts under the rug, humans get the society that they deserve. It is Human Nature that is at the core of this banking fraud issue, not just the banksters themselves. The bankers couldn't have done it without you! Can anyone actually debate, logically, not emotionally that the people on this forum, who behave in a hypocritical fashion concerning banking, are they any better than the banksters themselves if they partake in the system that gives power to the very people who enslaves the majority of the population? Those who ,in this time period , writes checks, and does electronic banking etc knowing how the system works are just as corrupt as the banksters themselves in my opinion. But people don't like to look at themselves in that realistic light. They like to rationalize their contribution to the aiding and abetting of the banks. As I keep saying, human nature is the problem. Humans don't want any inconvenice; they want an easy out. Humans will blindly close their eyes to evil, if evil will give them a convenience, or add to their profits. Humans want the bankers to stop the fraud, yet they refuse to acknowledge their own part in keeping the fraud alive.

So anyone who is a hypocrite ,according to Webster's dictionary, concerning the support of the banking system, this thread is aimed at you. Unfortunately, that means 99 percent of the population. Do you think Avalonians would have a smaller percentage of humans not supporting the banking system? I think not.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Hi Mr Davis

I totally agree...and yes i and my partner are hypocrites too as we use the banking system still but what choice do we have as his wages are paod straight in...ask for wages to be paid in cash and you're told 'sorry no can do' so what option do we have?
One thing we do as soon as he's paid is get the money out so they have less time to use it...but that makes no difference really because as soon as we spend it it goes back into the system!!...so at the moment they have got us on a string

I would love to be in a position to get out this system like many here i think, but like many i'm trapped to a degree and 'awoke' to late to make the changes, if i could do it all over no way would i be living this way

much love

Hello learninglight,,

I wish I had great words of wisdom for you, but I don't. I am glad that you at least withdraw it all as quickly as possible. You probably will figure out other ways to promote freedom, privacy and choice, even though you are feeling quite trap by the system As I have said before the system is designed to trap people. I am sure you are aware of the saying: thought follow action, and energy follows thought, therefore the mere fact that you are taking the funds out early could eventually give you more opportunities to take more action to increase your freedom.
I think by your action of withdrawing the funds from the bank, and I assume using cash as much as you can, is sending a clear message to your own subconscious and as well as the collective conscious that freedom is fundamental and a good thing to have while living life here on earth.

I wish you well. And as the old saying goes better late than never. You never know how twenty four hours can change one's circumstances. I wonder how your life will change now that you have "awaken"?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

I'm all in favour of "action" threads rather than "idle theory" threads.

Bitcoin may provide a solution although I'm not in favour of a cashless society.

The "Crash JP Morgan buy Silver" campaign is a worthwhile one. I am with you Max Keiser.

I would say that if you are involved in one of those activities whilst protesting the banks and yet still using their services I think calling someone a hypocrite would be a bit harsh.

Hello Lochinvar,

I wonder why you are not in favor of a cashless society? I am totally opposed to one, so I am in agreement with you. Now, the bankers would love a cashless society, but what would everyday humans give up by going along with the CONVENIENCE of a cashless society? What will life be like when we have NO CHOICES left?

Silver is good. Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone bought a silver dollar or two! The winter holidays are coming up; guess what I am buying everyone on my gift list! Well, it won't be much of a surprise for them, I have been gifting silver dollars for a while; and some of them are now getting my point.

Lochinvar, I can not judge you or anyone else. It is up to all of us to take information, or not; and look in the mirror, or not, to see how, if in anyway, if that information, observation, idea, or situation may, or may not, be applied to their action, or behavior.

I quoted a definition from a dictionary on the word, hypocrite. Taking that definition, I have been applying it to what people write compared to their daily actions.

To me, if one understands the corruption of the monetary system, and continues to patronize it while being in a position to STOP using some, if not all of the banking services than that human fits the description of a hypocrite as described by Webster's Dictionary.

People rationalize for many reasons. It is very sad when humans choose to support what they know is wrong because it’s CONVENIENT. Many things worth having, like freedom and privacy, is not always CONVENIENT, it take extra effort. Having children is not always easy or convenient, they take extra effort; but aren’t they the treasures of the world.

To me, the bottom line, IN MY OPINION and FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, while REMEMEBRING THAT your OPINION and YOUR PERSPECTIVE is equally valid in this discussion, is that if a human buys silver, protests wall street, because they understand the foundational corruption of the monetary and banking system, and yet they still use all of the banks services, while they are in position to stop using some, if not all banking services, then I will call it as defined in the dictionary, that human is a hypocrite in the area concerning the monetary system.

IF ON THE OTHER HAND, that human has been totally trap, and cannot even take cash out of his/her account to buy the groceries, then that Human has had all choices taken away from them, and is being dictated to, until that human figures out how to slowly extract him/herself from this sinister system. It is a system that so many recognize as corrupt, but go along with it and patronizes it because it is SO COVENIENT, and in the process of basking in that CONVENIENCE, they too have lost choisces along the way. So the person who is trapped, and has no choice ,is not a hypocrite, they were just sucked into the system, help along by all humans who use the system for their CONVENIENCE when they KNOW how corrupt it is, and how it is taking people's choices away, taking people's wealth away, taking people's privacy away. taking people's dignity away, let alone knowing that it is destroying the stability of OUR country or shall we say THE WORLD! These are Big consequences for a little CONVENIENCE. So to repeat, if a human is trapped, my heart goes out them, if a human is not trapped, yet understands and complains, and yet does nothing but continues to use all of the banking system servics......those are the people that need to look in the mirror and see their part in enslaving those who are stuck in the system and can' t get out.

A dictionary definition is not harsh.... it is simply is.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis
Sadly your responses are riddled with contradiction and this makes the condescension harder to bear. Like Jorr above I will be trying to avoid your threads in future.

Hello Lochinvar,

I am wondering why you don't use actual examples to show what you perceive as contradictions and the condescention to back up what you say.

But it is best for the forum at large to avoid my threads if you are uncomfotable with my writing.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Hi again Mr Davis....we are all friends here so would it be possible to call you by your first name as Mr Davis sounds rather formal to me :)

My ideal way of living would be something along the lines of how they live in the film 'The Green Beautiful', a wonderful film where evryone is equal, evrything is shared and ALL are loved and cared for...and NO they don't have money

Here is a clip for those who haven't seen it i highly recommend it :)

b8m3Vy8bto4

much love

Hello learninglight,

I have not seen the movie. The idea of everyone being equal, cared for, and everything being shared is a beautiful thought, but humans, as a species, has not been able to obtain such beautiful and loving goals, at least not for any significant time that I am aware of. Sometimes during a crisis, I may see it a bit, but it doesn't last long. Of course that doens't mean it doesn't exist, I just haven't come across it, maybe you have? Yet, from what I have expereinced and read so many have tried. I wrote the following in an earlier thread sometime in February this year in reply to another poster:

********************

We both agree on personal responsibility and how important that is from our health, to all our relationships, and everything in between. But why is it that some people don’t naturally practice personal responsibility? Of course, I don’t have that answer, and for sure, there is more than one reason why humans are the way they are. I remember reading long ago about one particular colony in the 1600 or 1700s; I can’t remember which colony, but it was in the south, maybe North Carolina or Virginia. This particular plantation started off with the concept that everyone would farm, and then pool all their harvested crops to be divided equally between all community members. That sounds good and loving; however, human nature was not added into this equation. They discovered that some people decided not to work so hard; they reasoned, why should they since they would get an equal share of the crops regardless of how much they did or didn’t produce. Yup, even back then, some people, in a small community that depended on each other for survival, still took advantage of other people who worked hard. The shocking thing is that the attitude had a domino like effect on others as time went on. When other people saw some being lazy, more and more people thought the same thing, “why should I work hard when he isn’t working hard, and we will still all share equally in the bounty anyway?” Well, it got so bad that only a few were really producing, and as a result the colony almost starved. So they changed the rules. They decided as a group that people could keep whatever they grew, and trade the excess if they wanted to, but they didn’t have to share their crops. The colony then flourished.
Personal responsibility, civic responsibility, morality, honesty, egalitarian relationships and attitudes are wonderful qualities that I wish everyone possessed, but they don’t. Why is it that humans are the way they are? I don’t know what the ratio is between inherent traits, and socially engineered traits to keep us addicted, weak, and under the thumbs of TPTB. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if all humans practiced personal and civic responsibility; and that as a community we nurtured strength, honesty and ethics instead of control and weakness? But alas, it would appear that group dynamics usually follows the same bell curve, of many communities, by having a lot of nice people with the same ratio of not so nice people. Humans do such atrocious things to

themselves and each other, yet every once in a while a miracle happens and they do something amazingly good. I just wish the miracles happened more often.”

**************************************

But that is not the only human group that experimented and failed in such matter that you write of. The literature abounds with examples. And in America again, Bronson Alcott’s, “Fruitlands”, come to mind, such a tragedy that was. Such greed and brutality there, in my opinion especially while reading biographies of Louise May Alcott’s life. The father thought he was developing such a beautiful lifestyle, but what was the experience of those around him, because he didn’t take on personal responsibility?

The other day I was reading a book about Edwin Hubble.
In the book, they quote from the dairies of his wife, Grace Hubble, and this was in the 1920s, she write: “ I believe that the first step in European civilization was taken when homosapiens discovered that it was easier to coerce a weaker not so intelligent homosapien to wait on him than to invent labor-saving devises for himself” Pretty ugly thinking, in my part, but such are the thoughts of many humans.

If one wants such an ideal life where everyone is equal by shareing equally and lovingly, should such behavior first happen in one’s family? And yet how does the average family relate and respond to each other? If families took care of each other, would we have the issues that we faced today? Have you ever expereince many familyies dealing with a will? How many families have been destroyed becasue of the fighting over a will? Why do you think famlies can't be loving and kind to each member? Perhaps you have a loving family that truely watches out for each other and would never fight over a will? No need to answer. That is just a question for all readers to ponder over.

Another book I read, quite some time ago that left a huge impression on me, was one written before I was born. I do like reading books written in different time periods. Anyway, the book was a banker; memoirs. He wrote not only his views on his employees, but that of his banker friends in general. He described how the bank tellers were so important to the bank, and in many ways worked much harder than his well paid executives, with their lofty vacations and generous vacation days that the tellers did not get. He came right out and said the tellers were not paid what they were worth. But he rationalized that if people were so “stupid” as to work for less than they are worth, then that is their lost, and the bank’s gain in profits. He felt no guilt in taking advantage of these young people, and rather had little respect for them because they were willing to do the work for money that they couldn’t possibly make ends meet with, the working poor.

So as I read about these attitudes through the ages, as I see that many humans are still willing to work for less than what they are worth, when I see the same behavior within families, then I ponder and have to ask, if what you want so much is just out of the reach of the average human? And seeing how easy humans allow themselves to get trapped in the banking and monetary system, I just can’t see the ideas of your what you would like to happen, happen in what we call the civilized world. The people themselves will not alow it to happen in my opinion.

As to my name, you seem to be more comfortable with informality. I am more comfortable with formality. You write that, “ we are all friends here” If that were true, why would an earlier poster of this thread inform me:
“ Unfortunately for you blake; you won't make many friends here with this post. You will be attacked, scorned, riduclued and insulted to say the least. I love the thread and agree. Thanks for speaking the truth.”

Perhaps we have different definitions of what a friend is. However, I have been a member of this forum long enough, and have seen quite a lot of “ unfriendly" bantering going on, to put it mildly, simply because people had a different opinion. I am sure the mods know exactly of what I refer to.

So to answer your question, since I sign my name, "Mr. Davis", what do you think is the respectful thing to do?

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[Cartomancer]

Check this out Anonymous is calling for everyone to close their bank account and open one at a Credit Union:

di3lxRhuzsE

[blake]

Hello All,

I don't know how anyone defines a hypocrite, but the Webster dictionary defines it as: "a person who pretends to be what he or she is not, one who pretends to be better than is really so. "

Whereever I go, people complain about the banks, and yet they feed the beast by using its services and rationalizing why they need to patronize the beast. The below article states as many writers have written before to STOP USING THE BANKS. I am in agreement that anyone protesting the banks and wallstreet, and yet uses their services, are cowardly hypocrites. ...

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis


... if people are complaining about the fraud in our centralized banking system, why is it that it is more than likely that 99 percent of the Avalonians are still aiding and abetting the beast by using its services? I have little tolerance for people who complain but rationalize why they can't take action. I am curious as to how anyone can rationalize why they still are writing checks, doing electronic banking, using debit cards etc etc when they complain so loudly about the fraud. To me that is a hypocrite.

...

Humans want the bankers to stop the fraud, yet they refuse to acknowledge their own part in keeping the fraud alive.

So anyone who is a hypocrite ,according to Webster's dictionary, concerning the support of the banking system, this thread is aimed at you. Unfortunately, that means 99 percent of the population....

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

I simply do not have the time to spend at Avalon that I did before, and have become very reluctant to jump into a thread and offer an opinion - especially an opinion in opposition to the OP's - because I do not have the time to come back and make it into an ongoing conversation.

But every so often, I feel compelled to make some noise, offer an opposing viewpoint "for what it's worth" and not really intend to babysit this thread to see if the OP or anyone is expecting a conversation.

Observations:
Blaming the victim: citizens are victims of banks and banker's scams. Very few people have the knowledge to have been immune for a lifetime to the professional psychology employed in advertising/marketing banks and banking services. In fact, if the banks and bankers hadn't gone from greedy to astoundingly, amazingly, apocalyptically greedy, everyone would be numb to their scam. It would be business as usual.

Banks perform a service. Money has a function. This is the paradigm that we were born into. It never seemed strange, or wrong, or evil to most people - dare I say 99% of us had no clue of the "money as debt" or "debt as money" scam. There are few Andrew Jacksons, and fewer still that listen to them.

I agree with pretty much everything in the article cited, and find it odd that after reading that article that someone would take a leap from strategies to minimize the oligarchical power of banks, to declaring someone a hypocrite if they do not completely divorce from banks. This is a complex problem, interwoven with society. This isn't McDonald's, and not something we can simply dismiss with a wave of the hand. The way the system is set up right this moment and tomorrow, and the day after (until extreme banking reform occurs) some functions of society have been rendered impossible or cost prohibitive without the use of credit cards (the plastic representation of a bank.) For example, try flying, booking a hotel, or renting a car without a credit card. Will an airline even take cash? (hotels and car rental agencies will not) If an airline will take cash, and unless you want to pay $800 (for a $400 ticket) the day you walk into an airport, then you'd have to buy the ticket in advance. For me, that a 5 hour round trip to the regional airport - an extra 5 hour round trip in addition to the trip to the airport on the day of the flight.

If you live in a small to medium-sized city, it is likely that some of the goods that you want are simply not locally available, or where locally available are priced so high they are not affordable. Some of this (most of this) is frivolous consumerism, but some non-frivolous examples might be specific vitamins, organic food that cannot be grown in my climate, a water filtering setup that could supply safe drinking water in case of a disaster. In some cases (for example the vitamins) you may find a local mom-and-pop store that will sell a bottle of vitamins for $35 that you can buy from a cooperative elsewhere for $15. (So, this isn't about comparing Walmart to locally-owned small businesses.) Virtually all "mail order" shopping and Internet shopping is credit card only.

I would recommend to people looking for a home loan or a car loan to go to a credit union, not a bank. But what do you say to people who are barely making ends meet and who already have a bank loan? Do you recommend to them that they immediately apply at the credit union, to switch the loan from the bank to the credit union, incurring thousands in closing costs and appraisal fees? How about the fact that right now, many people's homes will not appraise high enough to get a loan without tens of thousands of dollars of additional down payment?

The article cited left me feeling empowered, gave me strategies to make a transition away from big banks. Having a finger wagged at me and being called a hypocrite is a shame-based psychological ploy that is dis-empowering and negative. I suspect that the OP's intent may have been to underscore the article, but if so, it missed its mark.

Dennis


Hello Mr. Leahy,
It appears that you were writing about what can’t be done instead of what can be done. What does say about your perspective on this matter? I think as long as people keep focusing on what can’t be done, then they shut down their brainstorming capability, while tieing the noose even tighter.
It is true, many humans are the victims of the fraudulent banking and monetary system. But is it healthy to be a perpetual victim? When does the victim choose to stop being prey for the predators? Or do most trapped humans have a similar psychological syndrome like that of an abused wife who will not leave her abusive husband, despite the very real danger of being killed? When does the victim say enough, and takes pro active steps to free themselves. I quoted this old saying before, but I think it is worth pondering some more: “fool me once and shame on you, but fool me twice and shame on me. When are awake humans going to start restructuring their lives? Or, are they going to continue to play into the hands of their abusers?
The challenges that you write of are very real for many. And yet humans have the choice, and those choices are not always easy to do. As they saying goes, “freedom isn’t easy”, it takes an honest look in the mirror, brain power, courage, plans, discipline and a high dosage of commonsense. The bottom line is, will a victim let go of victim mentality and take steps in freedom, or will they to continue to support a corrupt and hurtful system because it is convenient, and the steps toward freedom are just too inconvenient? If I were a victim, I would ask myself, what did I contribute to the situation that allowed myself to get trapped to begin with, then I would start some serious strategizing on how to get out of the situation, weather it could be done in one move, or a hundred moves. I just don’t believe in volunteering for the role of the perpetual victim. I agree, let us not blame the victim, but if a human went to an abuser’s house and got abused, then what do you call those humans that continue to visit the abuser’s house on a daily basis?

Perhaps you were asleep, until recently with the monetary system, but are you asleep with TSA? Are you prepared to sit back and watch the progression of the aggressive invasiveness of their enhanced pat downs, until a human doesn’t even have a choice of weather their wives or seventeen- year- old daughter, will be subject to body cavity searches before they board a plane to visit grandma across the country, or even worse are pulled over on the highway while driving to grandma’s house and coming across a random check point? Where do you draw the line. What has to happen before human states, “NO, I am not going to contribute to this by participating in it.”
Ma and Pops stores have to charge more money to survive, because their community didn’t support them. Humans turned their backs on their communities and took the carrots of the big chains and online shopping. I wonder how many humans can now see the consequences of not putting their dollars back into their community.
I am wondering if humans can now see the consequences of choosing to participate in the convenience of credit cards? Once credit cards were just a convenience, until they were manipulated into a necessity with the help of the victims taking the bait.
Humans are greedy by nature. Humans like the idea of a loving supportive community, but how many humans actually contribute to the community that they are now living in? Where do most of a human’s fiat dollars flow, into their local community, or outside of their community? A human can rationalize all they want to, but if a trapped human wants power and change, they need to look hard in the mirror, see clearly where society is, and at least acknowledge how they were trapped by the carrots because of personal greed and convenience and not from doing what was right and good. After acknowledging how they got trapped, then they at least have to make a decision that they will not continue to do more harm. The Powers That Be know that everyone can be bought. And they know that the general public can be bought very cheaply until they hang themselves with their own laziness and personal greed. That is a hard mirror to look into, and so I am sure many humans will rationalize why that isn’t true in their case. And if they do, then, in my opinion there will be a lot of perpetual victims waiting for a white knight to come along and save them.
For those awake, you all know you don’t have worry about the credit cards too much longer that most humans bought into, therefore contributing to the closing of convenient options and choices for Americans; we always didn’t need credit cards to rent cars etc. Oh no, all humans who choose to participate in the corrupt system, and then rationalized why they became perpetual victims are now currently contributing to the more sinister system in which humans will be allowed to make purchases, if at all, or be allowed travel, if at all. All awake humans know that system is just around the corner.
You write:

“dare I say 99% of us had no clue of the "money as debt" or "debt as money" scam.”
But you understand it now, but did that awakening changed your life style? You don’t need to answer that question. It is a question that those who are awake might want to ponder. Most humans don’t do what is right and good. It is just not in their nature. Most humans will go along to get along, simply for personal greed or convenience, at least in my opinion.

You write:
“There are few Andrew Jacksons, and fewer still that listen to them.”

Well, I am not talking about the poor souls who still feed the system because they don’t know any better. I am talking about humans, like the humans who are on this forum who already know better, whether they have recently educated themselves about the monetary system or if they have known about it for decades. And what does it say about basic human nature if it is true what you write about there are few Andrew Jacksons and fewer who want to listen to them? Does not one need to take pro action to protect themselves and their family from such ignorant or fool hearty humans, or is it easier to complain and rationalize that there is nothing you can do?

Why is it that many humans don’t want to hear the truth? And who on this forum is a human like that? Why is it that most humans like convenient lies over inconvenient truths? And what convenient lies, relating to the monetary system, are some Avalonians preferring to over inconvenient truths? Do Avalonians rationalize as much as the rest of the population, relating to the monetary system. and freedom? Or, do they apply their knowledge while making choices and in the structuring of their life?
Why are humans so easily controlled? What is it about marketing that the average humans so willingly allows themselves to be manipulated that they willingly buy into scams that in the end they know are not good for them or their community. As the old say goes, it does take two to tangle. Are humans’ critical thinking skills so atrophied ? And if they are how, can humans ever have a realistic expectation of being free? We are in this mess, because the average human did not want to say no. These questions to ponder are not directed to those still asleep. These questions are directed to those humans who have been following the corruption, and yet still rationalize why they are trapped and can do anything to change their relationship with the system.

Is what I write making anyone feel uncomfortable? Only if the shoe fits, I would imagine. I have not accused anyone of anything. I have simply stated the way it is, and implied where it is all going, because those who are awake know where it is all rapidly going.

How do you talk to a addict? Do they not have to face what type of a life style that their addiction has trapped them into, and how that is affecting their family and their community? Does one sugar coat it if they know that the next overdose just might mean their death? And who are they taking down with them during that last ugly act?

Every action has a reaction. What are the consequences when humans continue to choose to fully participate in an, corrupt ugly game especially when their choices dying out ?
Would you get involved with the mafia? Why not?

So a human can complain and rationalize all they want, or they can start using their brain and taking pro active steps. I can guarantee this. No one is coming to save you.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[blake]

I don't think you really understand banker.


YUhb0XII93I

Hello pie' n' eal.

Thanks so much for posting that short video. I had a very good chuckle as I am sure most who watched it did. The sad part is why did we all laugh so hard. We laughed becasue it is all so very true. And if we all acknowledge that it is very true by laughing at it, Why do humans continue to participate in making it possible for such a corrupt system to exist?

Thoroughly enjoyed the video, thanks again,

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Hi MR D

Quote....It appears that some posters only like to superficially look at a topic, and are not comfortable with my more persistent digging, in trying to get deeper into the topic. So please understand, I do understand that everyone is at a different stage. But it would be good if posters could read the post with a stronger objective filter, rather than an emotional filter which can occasionally lead to some posters taking the posts personally, instead on taking it in the spirit of a friendly debate or sharing of perspectives.

Quote....I understand some people are not ready to look at their behavior in a mirror, and perhaps those are the people “feeling” guilty. To them, I apologize that they had that reaction, and I would suggest that they should pick a different thread to follow. I am disappointed that posters, just don’t automatically do that. There are so many threads to follow. Why read a thread that makes them uncomfortable.

Qoute....I have been very consistent and forthright about the parameter of the discussion. I am sorry if anyone missed the point of the thread, or was offended by anything I may have written. This thread is simply polite, intellectual sparing about a very real issue. Those who are uncomfortable need only pick another thread to read. Just as I suggest shunning banks, posters can shun my threads. I take no offense with any poster who decides this thread just isn’t where they want to spend their valuable time on. I, personally, plan to stay within the parameters of the discussion, in hopes that the discussion could get deeper


After reading this i for 1 am off this condescending thread!!!!..........Condescension is a show of disdain and superiority in which the condescending person patronizes, or considers him/herself superior and "descends" to the level of, the disdained person.[

much love

Ms King

Dear Ms King,

I am puzzled by your reaction.

Thank you for all your postings

I wish you well.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

I am sorry but I am having a hard time understanding your point. I consider my self to be a very spiritual person. I also am impressed when a person's spirtual persuasions allows them to be a better human in this drama of life. However, this is not a thread on spiruality; it is a thread about the banking issue. And perhaps I am not understanding what you are conveying correctly, but my working definition of hypnocrite, for this thread, appears to be different from what you are expressing. And since hypocrisy vanishes on the spiritual level, according to your post, perhaps we can keep it on the mundane level where hypocrisy has cause deep injuries, and physical difficulties for many families who often are not able to even provide a peanut butter sandwich for their family at dinner time, becasue of banking practices that may have deprived families of their money.

I beleive there is a time for spirituality, and there is a time for dealing with the dramas of life. Somehow I can't see an eight-year-old being helped by "spiritual oneness" at dinner time when his hardworking parents can't provide him dinner. And I am sure that is a gentle example considering what some children in this world are facing everyday becasue of the hypocrisy of the adults in this world.
I am sure you have great spiritual wisdom. I am wondering how you bring that spirituality into the world of money and banking in this matrix system where people have physical needs.

It's quite alright blake.
Every person is responsible for creating reality and for recognizing that spiritual is the true essence of life, which is what people contemplate more and more as they get older and hopefully, wiser but especially when dying. Most people still don't get this, because they identify with what the matrix tells them, they worry too much about the physical body.

Being spiritual means having compassion for other, wanting to see them succeed, not digging a trap for them, and hoping they would fall. The Buddha said why do what you'll regret? Why bring tears upon yourself? Do only what you won't regret and fill yourself with joy.Everything starts by acceptance and forgiving one's self. Thoughts not harbored are just thoughts, but thoughts harbored are a sign of falling into wrong views. This can cause great confusion, suffering and hindrance on the path to realization. I think this will help you understand.

Hello Davidallany,

Thank you for posting. Wise words for sure. However, the focus of this thread is on the mundane level, and the very earthly experience of civilized systems trapping humans so that they will fail, and the part humans contribute to the traps that are set for them.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

The real question should be "who amongst us is not a hypocrite?"

It is my firm belief that hypocrisy is a myth. A way we have been trained to find fault in the ever changing dynamics of existence.

By the common definition, growth = hypocrisy, and stagnation = reliability.

This is not to justify or endorse lying, or intentional misdirection.

It is an important process to recognize our own hypocrisies and double standards, and choose to forgive them in others.

Hello Mr. Jonathan,

I think humans first need to forgive themselves, which they can not do if they continue to rationalize their hypocrisies, instead of aknowledging them. But it often appears that so many humans just don't have the courage to look honestly in the mirror. As a result we all are living in the society that their hypocrisies contributived to. Is Freedom really important to the average human? Does the average human have the courage to support freedom and avoid entrapment?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

One perspective Blake:

There is quite a list of expected apocalypses. Here is but one link:

http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm

"According to Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts (1979), an Assyrian clay tablet dating to approximately 2800 BC was unearthed bearing the words "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common." "

Can you see how you are moving into fear ?

There is value in seeing and cutting each other much more slack.

There is time.

Yes, the coming changes are going to be nasty, uncomfortable and unjust.

Older generations could have paid better attention, however there is a very great awakening of late.

Just that more dots need to be discovered, comprehended and understood -- if we are to recognize sustainable, equitable solutions for future generations, and not simply REACT and grab what we simply believe.

Hang in there. Take a break. Heal within.

Pace yourself.

These are going to be very necessary tools to continue collaborating with others, examining more information, discerning through these coming events, and continue expanding our wisdom.

There will be a solution.

The problem has been eons in the making, and a solution won't be complete by this 5th of November.

We have to impliment tools to avoiding the self-divisive process first.

Solutions will come after.

I don't see this happening just yet.

- 58




In my opinion, time has run out. Either one moves in liberty and freedom, while supporting choices, or they continue on as a slave, while contributing to the slavery of others.

I do not see good things in the near future. People have run out of time.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Dear 58and fixed,

Is the question really: am I moving in fear, or is it that I move without my head being stuck in the sand?

If I see a tornado coming, directly at my neighborhood, do I rest and think we have time knowing how swiftly and deadly it hits? Do I move in fear when I alert others that a tornado is in sight, and headed directly at us?

Fear is only bad when it is routed in falsehood and intended manipulations. We have the emotion of fear as we have the emotion of anger, to alert us that something is wrong and that conscious action is needed to rebalance either physically or emotionally, or more importantly to protect us.

I often hear the Fire Chief of our town say that he never allows a “fearless firefighter” into a burning building, because the odds are that his lack of fear will not allow his senses to be acute enough see sudden oncoming threats quickly enough, thereby get himself or someone else killed while trying to rescue victims. Healthy fear, not paralyzing, in dangerous situation will keep people alive. How do you know if your fear is healthy, or paralyzing? I suppose to the degree that one does not have their head stuck in the sand.

Have you ever heard the saying, “never follow a fearless human, they will get you killed”?

I have been following the economic decline for decades. I have seen changes in the system that horrified me, knowing where it was leading, while society at large never acknowledged these changes or actually thought they were good. While many have been slowly entrapping themselves, I have watched the moves of wolves guarding the hen house.

What I know, is that there are no more hens in the public hen house. Is that a fearful statement, or is that a statement based on fact? Best to have your own hen house at this point in time, because the public one, humans soon will discover, is empty, and they are going to be angry.

From my conversations, “new agers”, and those in the “spiritual communities” often talk of “fear mongering,”, and for sure, such strategizes of control do exist. Unfortunately those humans who often talk about “fear mongering” have not learned the difference between fear as a manipulation, and fear as a healthy warning system. I think the Powers That Be, prefer that humans never learn to use fear as a healthy warning system.

I use to tell my one-year-old……………”don’t put your hands on the oven door or you will burn them”………………

So was I fear mongering, or teaching a healthy fear to consciously stay away from oven doors that were opened with a blast of hot air coming out so the baby wouldn’t burn their hands out of curiosity, ignorance, or inexperience?

Fear mongering will entrap you and paralyze you. A healthy fear will keep you alert and safer. I look at a situation, study it with all tools that are available to me, and take appropriate steps to protect my family and my community. But how many humans have been watching the financial system for any length of time? Many times it looks like the only attention humans have been paying attention to the financial system is when they notice that their credit card has been maxed out. But one needs to go deeper that that in order to use fear to protect, rather than to move in aimless fear, or fearmongering. Another way of putting it, is that fearmongering , or moving in fear is due to ignorance. Ignorance often comes about by putting one’s head in the sand. Power goes to those who understand and applies the difference to the structuring of their life..

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Check this out Anonymous is calling for everyone to close their bank account and open one at a Credit Union:

di3lxRhuzsE

Hello Cartomancer,

Thank you for posting.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[sygh]

Oh, I think the video makes quite a point concerning hypocracy, and exactly what hypocracy is. We know what we are doing, we understand there are consequences, we warble for a change but seemingly, the average man is not willing to anything about itt. It's not that we don't care, just so long as the money flows. We bury our better senses under the rug, turn our headfs the other way, etc... I say "we' because what I am talking about is on a larger scale of hypocracy, a sort of mass hypocracy.

CG Jung "a few times referred to the hypocrisy of people who are not aware of the dark or shadow-side of their nature."

In the larger picture, being awake, or aware is being aware of our own hypocritical shortcomings. Many try to do what they can within themselves. We also try to look at the bigger picture. It doens't mean we have all the answers, it doesn't mean we can be the end-all-be-all for everyone.

Do you have a cure for hypocracY? Aside fron getting people to admit they are hipocrites, most on Avalon know they are hipocrits, even when they do their best to focus on not being hypocritical. What is the point of this thread?

Hypocritical quotes:
“How inexpressible is the meanness of being a hypocrite! how horrible is it to be a mischievous and malignant hypocrite.”

“And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? / Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.”

HYPOCRITE, n. One who, profession virtues that he does not respect secures the advantage of seeming to be what he depises.”

[Dennis Jonathan]

The real question should be "who amongst us is not a hypocrite?"

It is my firm belief that hypocrisy is a myth. A way we have been trained to find fault in the ever changing dynamics of existence.

By the common definition, growth = hypocrisy, and stagnation = reliability.

This is not to justify or endorse lying, or intentional misdirection.

It is an important process to recognize our own hypocrisies and double standards, and choose to forgive them in others.

Hello Mr. Jonathan,

I think humans first need to forgive themselves, which they can not do if they continue to rationalize their hypocrisies, instead of aknowledging them. But it often appears that so many humans just don't have the courage to look honestly in the mirror. As a result we all are living in the society that their hypocrisies contributived to. Is Freedom really important to the average human? Does the average human have the courage to support freedom and avoid entrapment?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Well put sir.

I agree that the first step on the road to personal growth is to forgive oneself. And the next is to then forgive others.

That includes forgiving those who contribute to (and participate in) a corrupt system, out of necessity for survival.

[58andfixed]

Good points and issues raised Blake.

I'm not into the 'right & wrong' modality, and perhaps I could have noted that "fear is being overstated with an emphasis on speed, yet caution is a well advised response."

I'd simply like to have you consider perspectives outside the range of what is firmly limited by your personal bias.

So consider that maybe the issue isn't so much of a tornado about to arrive within hours, but a winter that approaches within months.

Two years ago would have been a good time to have taken then action. Now would work as well. Maybe by the end of December will still be worthwhile considering.

Time will be the best test.

Maybe people see that they are embroiled with too many strings -- loans, credit cards, mortgages, regular digital transfers and such. There may be much that needs to be unraveled. And the process of being re-examined again by another financial institution for what one qualifies for could be a very intimidating process.

If this is slowly & steadily contemplated, considered and acted upon, then the final act is the most important of all, and not how much of a rush the act of account transfer is acted upon.

Rolfe Winkler was encouraging such an action way back in December 2009, and he wasn't the first.

http://blogs.reuters.com/rolfe-winkler/2009/12/30/move-your-money/

The "Move Your Money Project" is about one perspective of a very large gorilla, and is but one contribution.

http://moveyourmoneyproject.org/

- 58



One perspective Blake:

There is quite a list of expected apocalypses. Here is but one link:

http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm

"According to Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts (1979), an Assyrian clay tablet dating to approximately 2800 BC was unearthed bearing the words "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common." "

Can you see how you are moving into fear ?

There is value in seeing and cutting each other much more slack.

There is time.

Yes, the coming changes are going to be nasty, uncomfortable and unjust.

Older generations could have paid better attention, however there is a very great awakening of late.

Just that more dots need to be discovered, comprehended and understood -- if we are to recognize sustainable, equitable solutions for future generations, and not simply REACT and grab what we simply believe.

Hang in there. Take a break. Heal within.

Pace yourself.

These are going to be very necessary tools to continue collaborating with others, examining more information, discerning through these coming events, and continue expanding our wisdom.

There will be a solution.

The problem has been eons in the making, and a solution won't be complete by this 5th of November.

We have to impliment tools to avoiding the self-divisive process first.

Solutions will come after.

I don't see this happening just yet.

- 58




In my opinion, time has run out. Either one moves in liberty and freedom, while supporting choices, or they continue on as a slave, while contributing to the slavery of others.

I do not see good things in the near future. People have run out of time.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Dear 58and fixed,

Is the question really: am I moving in fear, or is it that I move without my head being stuck in the sand?

If I see a tornado coming, directly at my neighborhood, do I rest and think we have time knowing how swiftly and deadly it hits? Do I move in fear when I alert others that a tornado is in sight, and headed directly at us?

Fear is only bad when it is routed in falsehood and intended manipulations. We have the emotion of fear as we have the emotion of anger, to alert us that something is wrong and that conscious action is needed to rebalance either physically or emotionally, or more importantly to protect us.

I often hear the Fire Chief of our town say that he never allows a “fearless firefighter” into a burning building, because the odds are that his lack of fear will not allow his senses to be acute enough see sudden oncoming threats quickly enough, thereby get himself or someone else killed while trying to rescue victims. Healthy fear, not paralyzing, in dangerous situation will keep people alive. How do you know if your fear is healthy, or paralyzing? I suppose to the degree that one does not have their head stuck in the sand.

Have you ever heard the saying, “never follow a fearless human, they will get you killed”?

I have been following the economic decline for decades. I have seen changes in the system that horrified me, knowing where it was leading, while society at large never acknowledged these changes or actually thought they were good. While many have been slowly entrapping themselves, I have watched the moves of wolves guarding the hen house.

What I know, is that there are no more hens in the public hen house. Is that a fearful statement, or is that a statement based on fact? Best to have your own hen house at this point in time, because the public one, humans soon will discover, is empty, and they are going to be angry.

From my conversations, “new agers”, and those in the “spiritual communities” often talk of “fear mongering,”, and for sure, such strategizes of control do exist. Unfortunately those humans who often talk about “fear mongering” have not learned the difference between fear as a manipulation, and fear as a healthy warning system. I think the Powers That Be, prefer that humans never learn to use fear as a healthy warning system.

I use to tell my one-year-old……………”don’t put your hands on the oven door or you will burn them”………………

So was I fear mongering, or teaching a healthy fear to consciously stay away from oven doors that were opened with a blast of hot air coming out so the baby wouldn’t burn their hands out of curiosity, ignorance, or inexperience?

Fear mongering will entrap you and paralyze you. A healthy fear will keep you alert and safer. I look at a situation, study it with all tools that are available to me, and take appropriate steps to protect my family and my community. But how many humans have been watching the financial system for any length of time? Many times it looks like the only attention humans have been paying attention to the financial system is when they notice that their credit card has been maxed out. But one needs to go deeper that that in order to use fear to protect, rather than to move in aimless fear, or fearmongering. Another way of putting it, is that fearmongering , or moving in fear is due to ignorance. Ignorance often comes about by putting one’s head in the sand. Power goes to those who understand and applies the difference to the structuring of their life..

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

[QUOTE=sygh;348418]Oh, I think the video makes quite a point concerning hypocracy, and exactly what hypocracy is. We know what we are doing, we understand there are consequences, we warble for a change but seemingly, the average man is not willing to anything about itt. It's not that we don't care, just so long as the money flows. We bury our better senses under the rug, turn our headfs the other way, etc... I say "we' because what I am talking about is on a larger scale of hypocracy, a sort of mass hypocracy.

CG Jung "a few times referred to the hypocrisy of people who are not aware of the dark or shadow-side of their nature."

In the larger picture, being awake, or aware is being aware of our own hypocritical shortcomings. Many try to do what they can within themselves. We also try to look at the bigger picture. It doens't mean we have all the answers, it doesn't mean we can be the end-all-be-all for everyone.

Do you have a cure for hypocracY? Aside fron getting people to admit they are hipocrites, most on Avalon know they are hipocrits, even when they do their best to focus on not being hypocritical. What is the point of this thread?




Hello sygh,


Usually the first step in solving a problem is identifying what the problem is. Once the problem is identified, steps can be taken, if desired, towards restructuring of the problem so one can begin to improve their situation, in a well thought out plan, or at least get off the merry-ground so that the energy once given to the problem has nothing to sustain it. Those who choose to wait to be saved, instead of taking action to start correcting self defeating behavior, usually wither away while waiting to be saved. Or, if they are saved, they usually revert immediately back to similar behavior that put them in trouble to begin with….. And what is that called?

If people easily admit they are being hypocritical concerning the monetary and banking system, and yet they perpetually complain about the system, while rationalizing why they can’t take concrete steps to stop supporting the system, it would appear that they are, perhaps, being more than just hypocritical. And that is the point of my thread: Are the majority of people complaining, just waiting to be saved? And is it just the minority of people who will take some action? Which leads to the bigger question…. Does the majority always rely on the minority?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Mad Hatter]

Hello Mr Davis,

Thank you for the thread and to all who have responded to date, it certainly has been thought provoking.

So if no one came up with a solution in the last thrity, twenty or even ten years, what makes you think a last minute solution can be manifested, in favor of freedom and for the average human?
The solution is as old as the civil war in your country. Currency backed by precious metals using notes printed by the government ie No Fed. So the question becomes can the population peacefully replace the current crop of lawmakers with honest individuals and have them carry out the will of the people? Do you have more than one politician that thinks like Ron Paul? Technically this could be carried out in a relatively painless way and perhaps it is wishful thinking on both our parts that this eventuates in such a manner. From my perspective it is more a question of how bad will it have to get before the average person will make an effort to change things. Right now it seems to me we have nothing more than a vaguely myopic awareness that something isn't right...


I really would like to know what you are seeing that I don't see.
To be honest it would only be an insiders glimmer of the fact that a cashless system will be upon us a lot faster than most people realise. It is the very same CONVENIENCE you mention that has seen the introduction of such via the ability to pay by waving a mobile phone at a cash register as proof of concept and the only real argument amongst the banks seems to be niggling over how foreign exchange transactions will be settled.

What no phone? No worries have a chip instead... it's here now courtesey of idiot yuppies in Amsterdam wanting VIP nightclub access being a human test bed for the tech and your own governments recent FDA approval of such tech does not bode well for the future of the US population.

Believe me I have a very dark side which has on numerous occasions over the decades thought through survival techniques for the Orwellian nightmare that is upon us. For example if you consider most banks will do nothing about an untoward transaction on a credit card that amounts to less than twenty dollars it would be relatively easy to sit outside a busy supermarket with a scanner and cream more than enough to keep me comfortable in a couple of hours. Thus it is, in a sense, only the hypocritical wishful thinking that stops me going completely feral...

What will you do when cash is made illegal??

cheers

[blake]

The real question should be "who amongst us is not a hypocrite?"

It is my firm belief that hypocrisy is a myth. A way we have been trained to find fault in the ever changing dynamics of existence.

By the common definition, growth = hypocrisy, and stagnation = reliability.

This is not to justify or endorse lying, or intentional misdirection.

It is an important process to recognize our own hypocrisies and double standards, and choose to forgive them in others.

Hello Mr. Jonathan,

I think humans first need to forgive themselves, which they can not do if they continue to rationalize their hypocrisies, instead of aknowledging them. But it often appears that so many humans just don't have the courage to look honestly in the mirror. As a result we all are living in the society that their hypocrisies contributived to. Is Freedom really important to the average human? Does the average human have the courage to support freedom and avoid entrapment?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Well put sir.

I agree that the first step on the road to personal growth is to forgive oneself. And the next is to then forgive others.

That includes forgiving those who contribute to (and participate in) a corrupt system, out of necessity for survival.




Hello Mr. Jonathan,

Forgiveness, is always an interesting word. Some people even have their own “spiritual” or “psychological” definition of forgiveness. Since I don’t know how you are defining “ forgiveness,” I will look up how Webster’s Dictionary defines it and go from there.

“To give up resentment against or the desire to punish, stop being angry with; pardon. To overlook. To cancel a debt.”

Shall we forgive each other for our hypocrisies that made it so easy for TPTB to kill freedom before ,or after our families are bused to different camps?

This is not a thread for therapy. This is not a thread about spirituality. This is a thread of what every human will be forced to witness in a very short time. In a situation where the global fires are quickly reaching all out backyards, perhaps discussing forgiveness needs to be put further down on the priority list. When a fire is coming at the house, one is foolish to take precious time to discuss forgiveness of whom may have casued the fire. Usually the victims will be happy with people around them with clear heads who are taking action to save lives.


Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[sygh]

Wot if there is something that can be done, and it is simply that you don't know that you don't know ?

Wot if I knew some good steps, but know that people would have difficulty recognizing, liking or grasping the suggestions ?

Wot if all I could do -- like I recognize a lot of other doing -- is pepper PA and other places with little pieces that people could digest ?

Then it would simply be a matter of time, some patience for ppl to digest these little nuggets of truth.

I'm mostly patient. I'm mostly calm. I'm still willing to pay attention to discover more dots. I'm used to preparing for the 2nd mile.

I believe most people would like to do the 'good thing,' just that what that 'good thing' is so foreign as to be unrecognizable.

Would ppl be willing to pay attention ? Would ppl be willing to pay more attention, if there was hope ?

How many times have I tripped over truths because I didn't see them ? -- 2 many times to count.

- 58



there is nothing that any of us can do to stop it.
corson

Hello 58andfixed,

All very eloquent and beautiful as usual. And I wish we all had time to discover those truths that we may have tripped over and ignored, however, there comes a time when time is no longer a luxury. In my opinion, time has run out. Either one moves in liberty and freedom, while supporting choices, or they continue on as a slave, while contributing to the slavery of others.

I do not see good things in the near future. People have run out of time. Those who have not supported freedom and choices, will now perpetuate us all into a bloodly revolution, simply because they bought into the conveniences of tryrany. It is sad, but this is how humans have played their options over and over throughout history. For centuries, humans never seem to learn their lessons of what is good and right, they always fall into the hands of the tryants because of their own personal greed, not becasue of the greed of the tryants.

For those who haven't learned the value of privacy, freedom and choices, they are all contributing to the coming terror in their own back yards. I do wish we all didn't have to go through this yet another time. But alas, it appears that we will.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis
Tme to get off the couch turn off the TV, plant your garden, batten down the hatches and help the old man cross the road. Ignorance and "all is well" is no longer applicalbe(never was)

This I do on a daily basis. Have known of this coming for years. Have tried to do everything that was in my power to do. And that is all anyone can do. Maybe, what I did 5 years ago was exactly what I was supposed to do. To finish something very important, educate so that I too could better help others. And I did this as there was a hurricane on my heels.

If I die tomorrow, I die but I will have accomplished what I came for. Doing this all over again doesn't apply to what I see. Get to work, there's a lot to be done. If we don't survive physically, someone else will, and they will remember. Don't get too upset, we all open a new door and walk through it.

[blake]

Good points and issues raised Blake.

I'm not into the 'right & wrong' modality, and perhaps I could have noted that "fear is being overstated with an emphasis on speed, yet caution is a well advised response."

I'd simply like to have you consider perspectives outside the range of what is firmly limited by your personal bias.

So consider that maybe the issue isn't so much of a tornado about to arrive within hours, but a winter that approaches within months.

Two years ago would have been a good time to have taken then action. Now would work as well. Maybe by the end of December will still be worthwhile considering.

Time will be the best test.

Maybe people see that they are embroiled with too many strings -- loans, credit cards, mortgages, regular digital transfers and such. There may be much that needs to be unraveled. And the process of being re-examined again by another financial institution for what one qualifies for could be a very intimidating process.

If this is slowly & steadily contemplated, considered and acted upon, then the final act is the most important of all, and not how much of a rush the act of account transfer is acted upon.

Rolfe Winkler was encouraging such an action way back in December 2009, and he wasn't the first.

http://blogs.reuters.com/rolfe-winkler/2009/12/30/move-your-money/

The "Move Your Money Project" is about one perspective of a very large gorilla, and is but one contribution.

http://moveyourmoneyproject.org/

- 58


[QUOTE=58andfixed;346686]One perspective Blake:

There is quite a list of expected apocalypses. Here is but one link:

http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm

"According to Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts (1979), an Assyrian clay tablet dating to approximately 2800 BC was unearthed bearing the words "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common." "

Can you see how you are moving into fear ?

There is value in seeing and cutting each other much more slack.

There is time.

Yes, the coming changes are going to be nasty, uncomfortable and unjust.

Older generations could have paid better attention, however there is a very great awakening of late.

Just that more dots need to be discovered, comprehended and understood -- if we are to recognize sustainable, equitable solutions for future generations, and not simply REACT and grab what we simply believe.

Hang in there. Take a break. Heal within.

Pace yourself.

These are going to be very necessary tools to continue collaborating with others, examining more information, discerning through these coming events, and continue expanding our wisdom.

There will be a solution.

The problem has been eons in the making, and a solution won't be complete by this 5th of November.

We have to impliment tools to avoiding the self-divisive process first.

Solutions will come after.

I don't see this happening just yet.

- 58

[QUOTE=blake;346482]

In my opinion, time has run out. Either one moves in liberty and freedom, while supporting choices, or they continue on as a slave, while contributing to the slavery of others.

I do not see good things in the near future. People have run out of time.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Hello 58 and fixed,

I think the point of this financial issue is not whether it is arriving as a tornado or a winter storm, and whether there will be a solution or not, the point is the hypocrisy of humans and their lack of self discipline, and their lack of solid ethics.

The financial and political issue we are facing has been around for thousand of years. The never ending saga of the ninety nine percent allowing the one percent to financially and politically oppress them, while complaining about them is a vicious cycle that follows us through time. Humans have failed repeatedly, century after century, to break this cycle. And since humans nature hasn’t changed, those living today will also fail.

It is said by many that Americans get the Congress they deserve, meaning the average American is no better then the average politician. There seems to be Avalonians who willingly announce that they are hypocrites, even stating that we all are hypocrites in all areas of our lives. I believe that is true. And until humans start disciplining themselves with fundamental ethics, get their head out of the sand, stop rationalizing, and are not proud to say they are hypocrites, the play between the one percent and the ninety-nine percent, might change players and scenes, but essentially it will always revert back to the the one percent oppressing and controlling the ninety-nine percent, as it has for thousands of years. Human nature doesn't change. The vast majority of humans, no matter how much love and light they speak of, are just hypocrites creating the world that we live in, that they complain about so much.

I forget who wrote this, but from what I have witnessed my entire life it appears to be true. because what I see is that ninety percent or more of humans who complain the most, are the sheeple:

"Your father made a mistake common to many educated men. He forgot that people are lazy. They need to be led"

So when the crash happens, and it soon will, anyone thinking they will get a free lunch, their perceived justice, or a mystical beautiful world will be ever so disappointed to see the same old same old, as human nature continues running the show.

So one needs to make sure they understand what is happening, so they can make the best chess moves possible to protect themselves as much as they can, not just from those who control the money and rules, but from this enormous ocean of hypocrisy in that we all live.


Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Daren]

Most are born, and registered into the banking system from birth, Birth certificate we may not just be using the banks but might be at its very heart. we must never forget we are in there system, but at least we are coming to that point of understanding it.
We can try and balance things out by using a bit of I help you if you help me, taking a bit out of the bank and putting it into silver. and may be getting a better understand of the Roman laws of the sea.
We must remember they have great under standing passed down to them, most of us are coming in to see the system and are looking for the small stick that can be placed in the biggest clock and grind it to a stop. Remember even a piece of dust in the wrong place in an accurate watch will stop it. The point is, we are now with eyes opened looking at ways to may be just remove our self from there game altogether and use the power of NO.

[Lord Sidious]

Most are born, and registered into the banking system from birth, Birth certificate we may not just be using the banks but might be at its very heart. we must never forget we are in there system, but at least we are coming to that point of understanding it.
We can try and balance things out by using a bit of I help you if you help me, taking a bit out of the bank and putting it into silver. and may be getting a better understand of the Roman laws of the sea.
We must remember they have great under standing passed down to them, most of us are coming in to see the system and are looking for the small stick that can be placed in the biggest clock and grind it to a stop. Remember even a piece of dust in the wrong place in an accurate watch will stop it. The point is, we are now with eyes opened looking at ways to may be just remove our self from there game altogether and use the power of NO.

Your legal entity might be in the system, but you are not, that is the whole reason it exists.

[Dennis Jonathan]

The real question should be "who amongst us is not a hypocrite?"

It is my firm belief that hypocrisy is a myth. A way we have been trained to find fault in the ever changing dynamics of existence.

By the common definition, growth = hypocrisy, and stagnation = reliability.

This is not to justify or endorse lying, or intentional misdirection.

It is an important process to recognize our own hypocrisies and double standards, and choose to forgive them in others.

Hello Mr. Jonathan,

I think humans first need to forgive themselves, which they can not do if they continue to rationalize their hypocrisies, instead of aknowledging them. But it often appears that so many humans just don't have the courage to look honestly in the mirror. As a result we all are living in the society that their hypocrisies contributived to. Is Freedom really important to the average human? Does the average human have the courage to support freedom and avoid entrapment?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Well put sir.

I agree that the first step on the road to personal growth is to forgive oneself. And the next is to then forgive others.

That includes forgiving those who contribute to (and participate in) a corrupt system, out of necessity for survival.




Hello Mr. Jonathan,

Forgiveness, is always an interesting word. Some people even have their own “spiritual” or “psychological” definition of forgiveness. Since I don’t know how you are defining “ forgiveness,” I will look up how Webster’s Dictionary defines it and go from there.

“To give up resentment against or the desire to punish, stop being angry with; pardon. To overlook. To cancel a debt.”

Shall we forgive each other for our hypocrisies that made it so easy for TPTB to kill freedom before ,or after our families are bused to different camps?

This is not a thread for therapy. This is not a thread about spirituality. This is a thread of what every human will be forced to witness in a very short time. In a situation where the global fires are quickly reaching all out backyards, perhaps discussing forgiveness needs to be put further down on the priority list. When a fire is coming at the house, one is foolish to take precious time to discuss forgiveness of whom may have casued the fire. Usually the victims will be happy with people around them with clear heads who are taking action to save lives.


Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

I agree of course, but what would your assessment be of someone throwing buckets of water on a house that "may" catch fire one day?

[blake]

Most are born, and registered into the banking system from birth, Birth certificate we may not just be using the banks but might be at its very heart. we must never forget we are in there system, but at least we are coming to that point of understanding it.
We can try and balance things out by using a bit of I help you if you help me, taking a bit out of the bank and putting it into silver. and may be getting a better understand of the Roman laws of the sea.
We must remember they have great under standing passed down to them, most of us are coming in to see the system and are looking for the small stick that can be placed in the biggest clock and grind it to a stop. Remember even a piece of dust in the wrong place in an accurate watch will stop it. The point is, we are now with eyes opened looking at ways to may be just remove our self from there game altogether and use the power of NO.

Hello Daren,

What may be new information and new understanding to you, was once new information and new understanding to others of pervious generations throughout the ages. The information, and/ or understanding didn't break the cycle in the past hundred years or hundred of centuries, and it won't break the cycle in this generation, unless someone discovers how to change human nature, and, it would seem, only mother nature can do that. Your new knowledge and understanding can only help you change your own choices to protect yourself, and sidestep, not only the sea of corruption that surrounds us by the one pecent, but also protect yourself in the larger Ocean of hypocrisy that humans, the sheeple, those who complain the loudest, created for thesmselves to live in. The one percent didn't trap the sheeple; mostly,the ninetynine percent trapped themselves. It is how it has always been.




Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Daren]

They are masters of control and most hear can see this or are starting to see it, banks, religion, even down to the letter we use to communicate in the material world, all put in place to keep us locked in our cell and trained from birth, to be a bee to be in the hive. so we get the Question to bee or not to bee that is the Question . do we feed the royal jelly to a new queen or do we no longer bee a Bee and just become a spiritual beeing, in a material world.

[blake]

They are masters of control and most hear can see this or are starting to see it, banks, religion, even down to the letter we use to communicate in the material world, all put in place to keep us locked in our cell and trained from birth, to be a bee to be in the hive. so we get the Question to bee or not to bee that is the Question . do we feed the royal jelly to a new queen or do we no longer bee a Bee and just become a spiritual beeing, in a material world.

Hello Daren,

Thanks for posting again. From my perspective, the "Masters" do locks us in; but it does takes two to tangle; and it would seem looking through history that most humans have helped turn the key that keeps most humans trapped by the system. Since humans have more or less cooperated with the "Masters" throughout time in keeping them trap by their own hypocrisy, unless there is something new to factor into the equation, most humans do not seem capable of being an evolved spiritual being in a material world because of their lack of discipline and solid ethics. In my opinion, before humans can be spiritual beings in a material world, they do need to get rid of their hypocrisy. Some say we already are spiritual beings in a material world. To them I say most humans have not earned their "angel wings yet" Perhaps learning ethics and living ethics is part of gaining ones spiritual angel wings? But this is not a thread on spirituality, so I will stop there.


Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Dennis Jonathan]

They are masters of control and most hear can see this or are starting to see it, banks, religion, even down to the letter we use to communicate in the material world, all put in place to keep us locked in our cell and trained from birth, to be a bee to be in the hive. so we get the Question to bee or not to bee that is the Question . do we feed the royal jelly to a new queen or do we no longer bee a Bee and just become a spiritual beeing, in a material world.

The term "nailed it" comes to mind.

Well put. You sir are a warrior poet.

[58andfixed]

This is a truth.

We Move to Amend:

http://movetoamend.org/

http://movetoamend.org/sites/default/files/occupy-the-courts.jpg

"On January 21, 2010, with its ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, the Supreme Court ruled that corporations are persons, entitled by the U.S. Constitution to buy elections and run our government."

"Human beings are people; corporations are legal fictions."

"We, the People of the United States of America, reject the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Citizens United, and move to amend our Constitution to:"

* "Firmly establish that money is not speech, and that human beings, not corporations, are persons entitled to constitutional rights."

* "Guarantee the right to vote and to participate, and to have our vote and participation count."

* "Protect local communities, their economies, and democracies against illegitimate "preemption" actions by global, national, and state governments."

"The Supreme Court is misguided in principle, and wrong on the law."

"In a democracy, the people rule."

****

More accurate to note that the United States of America is a "Democracy fashioned as a Constitutional Republic," however this is hair-splitting in relation to the much larger issue that requires correcting.

- 58





Your legal entity might be in the system, but you are not, that is the whole reason it exists.

[Lord Sidious]

This is a truth.

We Move to Amend:

http://movetoamend.org/

http://movetoamend.org/sites/default/files/occupy-the-courts.jpg

"On January 21, 2010, with its ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, the Supreme Court ruled that corporations are persons, entitled by the U.S. Constitution to buy elections and run our government."

"Human beings are people; corporations are legal fictions."

"We, the People of the United States of America, reject the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Citizens United, and move to amend our Constitution to:"

* "Firmly establish that money is not speech, and that human beings, not corporations, are persons entitled to constitutional rights."

* "Guarantee the right to vote and to participate, and to have our vote and participation count."

* "Protect local communities, their economies, and democracies against illegitimate "preemption" actions by global, national, and state governments."

"The Supreme Court is misguided in principle, and wrong on the law."

"In a democracy, the people rule."

****

More accurate to note that the United States of America is a "Democracy fashioned as a Constitutional Republic," however this is hair-splitting in relation to the much larger issue that requires correcting.

- 58





Your legal entity might be in the system, but you are not, that is the whole reason it exists.

People can't be persons either.
But at least people are out there doing something.

[161803398]

Nobody ever mentions drugs. What would happen to the banks, the government, the military if no one bought cocaine or heroin. That might make all the little bank charges look like pretty small change.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs

http://disquietreservations.blogspot.com/2009/01/banking-on-drugs.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8c1_1307274367

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Fortunes-Money-Cartels-Elite/dp/0966996801