Letting go ......of what?

[Tony]

Letting go....of what?

We are all going to the same destination, but via different route, so I apologise for any confusion.
If you continue to read on, and are still confused, be aware that it may not be reality that is a fault...it may be you! (thank you Douglas Adams)

Experiencing something takes a moment.
Explaining it takes time.
As we cannot stand still on our journey, we must move on.
It is always difficult on an open forum to gauge whether something is timely or not...

Letting go of thoughts, emotions and attachment to phenomena is, of course, a skilful action.

Letting go is still an act of 'doing'.
I let go.
In truth, there is nothing to let go, as it never existed in the first place.
Here we are talking something very subtle. There is nothing to do: just realise.

If we agree that all phenomena, thoughts and emotions are temporary occurrences - they rely on causes and conditions – then they have no inherent existence of their own. They do not truly exist.

This will take time to assimilate, as we are used to relating to things as truly existing.
It is just a matter of analysing and living with it for a while (if you are interested in this aspect, you would find in-depth analysis in the Madyamika system of Buddhist philosophy...but it's likely you will end up even more confused!).

The most important situation is when emotions arise.
It is not a matter of the emotions NOT arising: it is a matter of how we deal with them!
Gradually, with observation of what is going on internally, the emotions will subside naturally.

The process of letting go is an antidote - it releases.
Then realise that the emotion does exist at all.

There three traditional descriptions of the dissolving of thoughts and emotions:

1. Knot in a snake - it unties itself.
2. Writing on water - it disappears as soon as written.
3. A thief entering an empty house - nothing there to take.

These are merely tools to gauge our progress.

We may be told all this, but still we are attached to our clinging.
We can also be attached to OUR letting go!

Be aware of being a duck, calmly moving through the water...but paddling like the clappers underneath. In human terms, be aware of tension in the mind which can manifest in facial muscles....relaaaax!

Until enlightenment, we will have emotions.
We are work in progress.



Tony

[ROMANWKT]

Hi Tony

One must use will to undo will, one must do to undo, and so is the process.

My regards to as always
roman

[Tony]

Hi Tony

One must use will to undo will, one must do to undo, and so is the process.

My regards to as always
roman

You are right, first we need to make effort. Then we find effortlessness.

[Tarka the Duck]

Hi Tony

One must use will to undo will, one must do to undo, and so is the process.

My regards to as always
roman

Hello Roman:hug:

Would you agree with the metaphor that we need to use soap in order to clean, but once clean, we then need to wash away the soap?

Kathie

[Tony]

I sometimes wonder if total confusion is the goal...totally nothing to hold on to.
There is a saying...My dreamlike form, appeared to dreamlike beings, to show them the dreamlike path, that leads to dreamlike enlightenment.

[ROMANWKT]

HI Tarka the Duck

I absolutely agree and understand.

My regards to you Kathie
roman

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I sometimes wonder if total confusion is the goal...totally nothing to hold on to.
There is a saying...My dreamlike form, appeared to dreamlike beings, to show them the dreamlike path, that leads to dreamlike enlightenment.

That's why I call it " Its all nonsense".

Regards to you
roman

[another bob]

I sometimes wonder if total confusion is the goal...totally nothing to hold on to.


Greetings, Friend!

No, not confusion, but not knowing, which is non-dwelling.

Q: Whereon should the mind settle and dwell?

A: It should settle upon nondwelling and there dwell.

Q: What is this nondwelling?

A: It means not allowing the mind to dwell upon anything whatsoever.

Q: And what is the meaning of that?

A: Dwelling upon nothing means that the mind is not fixed upon good or evil,
being or nonbeing, inside or outside, or somewhere between the two,
void or nonvoid, concentration or distraction.

This dwelling upon nothing is the state in which it should dwell;
those who attain to it are said to have nondwelling minds -
in other words, they have Buddha-minds!


~Hui Hai,
THE ESSENTIAL GATEWAY TO TRUTH
BY MEANS OF INSTANTANEOUS AWAKENING

Blessings!

[Tony]

I sometimes wonder if total confusion is the goal...totally nothing to hold on to.


Greetings, Friend!

No, not confusion, but not knowing, which is non-dwelling.

Q: Whereon should the mind settle and dwell?

A: It should settle upon nondwelling and there dwell.

Q: What is this nondwelling?

A: It means not allowing the mind to dwell upon anything whatsoever.

Q: And what is the meaning of that?

A: Dwelling upon nothing means that the mind is not fixed upon good or evil,
being or nonbeing, inside or outside, or somewhere between the two,
void or nonvoid, concentration or distraction.

This dwelling upon nothing is the state in which it should dwell;
those who attain to it are said to have nondwelling minds -
in other words, they have Buddha-minds!


~Hui Hai,
THE ESSENTIAL GATEWAY TO TRUTH
BY MEANS OF INSTANTANEOUS AWAKENING

Blessings!

It depends how one defines confusion. Here it is meant in the sense of a break down of order.
Words can have many meanings.

[EileenCookies]

Hi Pie, just talking from your own experience is refreshing...as the first paragraphs you wrote above prove. Keep to it and avoid lecturing, preachiness is vastly different than being with what you are writing. It isn't from the mind. Take the time to luxuriate in what you communicate. Is it your words or something you learned (from the head) is the best questing device (for communicating in written contextual ways).

lv
eh

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I didn't make sense to others for the longest period...or so it feels now. And it was worth it. NOW I communicate freely and the words find me (rather than me focusing on the past and projecting into the future my ideas, judgements and pre-occupations).

[Tony]

hello Bob,
In buddhism some things are not too precisely defined, so as to allow the practitioner to experience in their own way.
In Tibetan one word can have many meanings.

[EileenCookies]

I would throw out your ideas and focus intent on the present Pie, unless you just like to repeat something said and hence dead (in value).

Finding the cherish traditions of Tibetan nationals (through their practices) isn't relevant (as much as we like to believe it is).

Finding your way is the plan of action by focusing (your intent) on presence circumstances.

Tragically, traditional English cultures (which is us ...and Canada, etc.) are valueless in this realm of endeavors.

They (tend to) focus on the past and make (plans...past ideas projected onto supposed 'futures'...but really just stories we tell each other to keep each of us more in stuckness than in realities greatness) or generate complex solutions for non-existent realities. Why plan for a tomorrow that you are trying to avoid anyway? YOu could be here and present with reality and it will treat you as an awake aware being, verses a dead automaton.

Shifting into a reality perspective, where each moment is the treasure is my personal path. I don't make up information just to please someone's egoic mind projections.

[Tony]

Dear Eileen

I can tell you are starting to like me...!

Love
Tony

[vibrations]

Letting go....of what?

We are all going to the same destination, but via different route, so I apologise for any confusion.
If you continue to read on, and are still confused, be aware that it may not be reality that is a fault...it may be you! (thank you Douglas Adams)


Marvin said (from the same Adams) "People talk obvious things"

OK, joke apart let go is a huge business. You'll say just let go and it's done, but each of us has a big backpack of beliefs, a huge box of fears and a lot of other huge things, so it's like digging the hole from somewhere you don't know where is to somewhere you also don't know where it is. Normally then we walk (or dig) in circles for many many lives and now we came here to the graduation party, and we are not sure if we pass the final exam or not. Let go would mean I passed.
But let go what. An hour ago I was meditating a bit and after relaxation, calming the mind grinder at last, I started to walk among people in some city or town, listening their thinking, knowing what is happening but without understanding it. Waiting for a signal to be able to say aha, that's what I am here and nothing. It's happening all the time. And what I really want is some clue to be able to let go. To find a way to throw away the backpack, the box and all the other stuff. Well, it's called acceptance.

You see, Douglas Adams was right. Nothing is confused, just me.

[EileenCookies]

Hi vibrations, didn't understand if you like to go further and not just think 'acceptance'. It is a word and doesn't have any authority to make the changes you are mentioning going for. Suffering is a key to your experience of self. I would recommend sitting further and blinding yourself to the knowledge that you know anything. Then perhaps you will see you are fooling yourself further with utter nonsense.

eileen (spiritual teacher)

[ROMANWKT]

Letting go....of what?

We are all going to the same destination, but via different route, so I apologise for any confusion.
If you continue to read on, and are still confused, be aware that it may not be reality that is a fault...it may be you! (thank you Douglas Adams)


Marvin said (from the same Adams) "People talk obvious things"

OK, joke apart let go is a huge business. You'll say just let go and it's done, but each of us has a big backpack of beliefs, a huge box of fears and a lot of other huge things, so it's like digging the hole from somewhere you don't know where is to somewhere you also don't know where it is. Normally then we walk (or dig) in circles for many many lives and now we came here to the graduation party, and we are not sure if we pass the final exam or not. Let go would mean I passed.
But let go what. An hour ago I was meditating a bit and after relaxation, calming the mind grinder at last, I started to walk among people in some city or town, listening their thinking, knowing what is happening but without understanding it. Waiting for a signal to be able to say aha, that's what I am here and nothing. It's happening all the time. And what I really want is some clue to be able to let go. To find a way to throw away the backpack, the box and all the other stuff. Well, it's called acceptance.

You see, Douglas Adams was right. Nothing is confused, just me.

Hi vibrations

You know , letting go could be as easy as acceptance.

Regards to you
roman

[vibrations]

Hi vibrations, didn't understand if you like to go further and not just think 'acceptance'. It is a word and doesn't have any authority to make the changes you are mentioning going for. Suffering is a key to your experience of self. I would recommend sitting further and blinding yourself to the knowledge that you know anything. Then perhaps you will see you are fooling yourself further with utter nonsense.

eileen (spiritual teacher)

Yes, I told you the text is confusing (my text) but I let go the thoughts to flow and suddenly I realized that simple acceptance of ourselves is the key (or one of them). When you accept yourself as you are, the perspective changes. Accept it (whatever it is) and you can let it go. And one thing I don't believe in is suffering. Long ago I made an inner move and see that nothing bad ever was done to me - if it was painful it was because I allowed it. Having false expectations about other people behavior.
But reading your words I would like to know more about what you are talking. As you didn't get what I was trying to say (maybe nobody did) I know just don't get everything from your words.

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Letting go....of what?

We are all going to the same destination, but via different route, so I apologise for any confusion.
If you continue to read on, and are still confused, be aware that it may not be reality that is a fault...it may be you! (thank you Douglas Adams)


Marvin said (from the same Adams) "People talk obvious things"

OK, joke apart let go is a huge business. You'll say just let go and it's done, but each of us has a big backpack of beliefs, a huge box of fears and a lot of other huge things, so it's like digging the hole from somewhere you don't know where is to somewhere you also don't know where it is. Normally then we walk (or dig) in circles for many many lives and now we came here to the graduation party, and we are not sure if we pass the final exam or not. Let go would mean I passed.
But let go what. An hour ago I was meditating a bit and after relaxation, calming the mind grinder at last, I started to walk among people in some city or town, listening their thinking, knowing what is happening but without understanding it. Waiting for a signal to be able to say aha, that's what I am here and nothing. It's happening all the time. And what I really want is some clue to be able to let go. To find a way to throw away the backpack, the box and all the other stuff. Well, it's called acceptance.

You see, Douglas Adams was right. Nothing is confused, just me.

Hi vibrations

You know , letting go could be as easy as acceptance.

Regards to you
roman

Thank you Roman, and you see "people talk obvious things"

regards

[EileenCookies]

Hi vibrations,
I did understand you (down to the bare bones)...much more than you even know yourself...only due to extensive research/training/education in this matter (to help prepare the way for our evoluationary change happening concurrently with our own self-evolutionary knowledge base....so hence the use of words verses just telepathically or even minor empathically (which I finally just got gifted).

You suffer. It is a fact. Wouldn't waste energy on searching or seeking. This is about being. For a change. Just feel the upliftment (and you are fine). Not feeling it? Stop and feel. Repeat (as long as necessary...whole year? ...took me that long).

eileen

[vibrations]

Hi vibrations,
I did understand you (down to the bare bones)...much more than you even know yourself...only due to extensive research/training/education in this matter (to help prepare the way for our evoluationary change happening concurrently with our own self-evolutionary knowledge base....so hence the use of words verses just telepathically or even minor empathically (which I finally just got gifted).

You suffer. It is a fact. Wouldn't waste energy on searching or seeking. This is about being. For a change. Just feel the upliftment (and you are fine). Not feeling it? Stop and feel. Repeat (as long as necessary...whole year? ...took me that long).

eileen

Thank you Eileen. It's one of my problems, I try to understand everything with a logic of my own. I feel, but there is no click yet. Impatiens? Yes. But believe me, it's not serious. I love to participate in a discussions, sometimes just put another point of view. And about suffering, I would really doubt. Love.

[EileenCookies]

Yes, suffering. Don't believe or disbelieve. Rather just be and sit with 'stuff' as it happens. Then you see your are suffering all the time, just repressing. I can attest it happens. Regularly in your life, just from your words and the lack of enthusiam you have for living (it ways or preys on you). You suffer so much I am afraid you are on the verge of some bad times.

If this is the case, then rather than let the suffering be a way (of living), break from the old (habits) and find new avenues of expression (self awareness) to break old addictive habits....like naysaying.

[vibrations]

Yes, suffering. Don't believe or disbelieve. Rather just be and sit with 'stuff' as it happens. Then you see your are suffering all the time, just repressing. I can attest it happens. Regularly in your life, just from your words and the lack of enthusiam you have for living (it ways or preys on you). You suffer so much I am afraid you are on the verge of some bad times.

If this is the case, then rather than let the suffering be a way (of living), break from the old (habits) and find new avenues of expression (self awareness) to break old addictive habits....like naysaying.

I won't say that I agree with everything you are saying, but there are accurate things in it. Thank you.

[another bob]

It depends how one defines confusion. Here it is meant in the sense of a break down of order.
Words can have many meanings.

Confusion arises as a conflict of ideas, whereas not knowing is prior to ideas.

Blessings!

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Hi Eileen,

I read this statement...


I would throw out your ideas and focus intent on the present Pie, unless you just like to repeat something said and hence dead (in value).


... and wondered why you are so persistent in telling Tony to leave his chosen path?

If you have been following Tony´s threads, he is actually asking people do exactly that :- to throw out ideas and find out what is beyond mind.
What he is suggesting is not dead in value, if you have not yet mastered being completely empty, in the present moment.
He has always emphasised that he is not a teacher, merely a doorman and is still learning.
Everyone has their very own way of reaching their inner realms of being and I, for one, am grateful for Tony´s presence and the lessons he has to offer.

You mention that you have done extensive research/training/education in a topic that interests YOU.
Why not allow a space for others to discuss what they have found is useful to them?
You have ended one post with eileen (spiritual teacher) and another with eileen (healer)
What sort of work do you?
Why not start your own thread with what you have learnt, to help others?



I do think that if we were all "enlightened", we would not be participating on a forum. :P
But swapping ideas on how to get there, certainly is fun! :becky:


I lke what Roman says .- "It´s all nonsense." :dance:

[another bob]

hello Bob,
In buddhism some things are not too precisely defined, so as to allow the practitioner to experience in their own way.
In Tibetan one word can have many meanings.

Not just Tibetan.

The mind was originally a tool in the struggle for biological survival. It had to learn that the laws and ways of Nature working hand-in-hand can raise life to a higher level. But, in the process the mind acquired the art of symbolic thinking and communication, the art and skill of language. Words became important. Ideas and abstractions acquired an appearance of reality, the conceptual replaced the real, with the result that man now lives in a verbal world, crowded with words and dominated by words.
Obviously, for dealing with things and people words are exceedingly useful. But they make us live in a world totally symbolic and, therefore, unreal. To break out from this prison of the verbal mind into reality, one must be able to shift one’s focus from the word to what it refers to, the thing itself. Words are pointers, they show the direction but they will not come along with us. Truth is the fruit of earnest action, words merely point the way.

Maurice Frydman


So with the teachings in all the sutras: They are intended for the consideration and guidance of the discriminating minds of all people, but they are not the Truth itself, which can only be self-realized within one's deepest consciousness. Mahamati, you and all the Bodhisattvas must seek for this inner self-realization of Noble Wisdom, and not be captivated by word-teaching.

~Lankavatara Sutra

Blessings!

[EileenCookies]

Ineffable Hitchhiker says:
"I like what Roman says .- "It´s all nonsense.""
I would say that indeed is the case, if you are spreading your ideas and not facts.

You ask that I leave Tony to his own devices and not write to him or anyone on his threads. A big request. Are you a moderator? Or are pre-tending you hold power?

And who decided to make threats a common part of Project Avalon? As indeed you are being threatening....in a veiled type of way.

[jjjones]

self realization of who you are and who you are not ,is the foundation, and the first step to the path into transformation. everything that each of us need to experience and learn will always be brought before us. you do not even need to search and wonder. don't worry be happy! namaste, peace and love universally. :)

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Good morning Eileen,
thank you for replying to my post.


I
You ask that I leave Tony to his own devices and not write to him or anyone on his threads. .

Where did I say that? What I said was :-

Why not allow a space for others to discuss what they have found is useful to them?




Are you a moderator? Or are pre-tending you hold power?


Nope.
And what do you mean by pre-tending to hold power?
I am not pretending anything, I´m just puttng a point of view across, like almost everyone else here.





And who decided to make threats a common part of Project Avalon? As indeed you are being threatening....in a veiled type of way.

I apologise if my post was construed as threatening.
That was absolutely not my intention and I am truly sorry if you perceived it as such.







everything that each of us need to experience and learn will always be brought before us.
Yes! Thank you for that.
It seems quite appropriate for me here.
I can see how my thoughts and emotions are getting entangled here. I have much to learn, especially in letting go. :)

[Tony]

er......nothing is real....and nothing to get hung up about.....strawberry fields forever....:behindsofa::kiss::behindsofa:

[music]

I would throw out your ideas and focus intent on the present Pie, unless you just like to repeat something said and hence dead (in value).

I don't make up information just to please someone's egoic mind projections.

By this logic, once I have said "I Love You" to someone, the phrase instaneously holds no value?

I offer no comment on the second statement.

Love

[Tony]

I have been told that Eileen has left the building.
I wish you well Eileen.
If you want to chat the mods have my email address.

[music]

She was a good lesson. I thank her for that, and send her Love.

[Lord Sidious]

Damn.
Eileen has a lot of anger and this is where she will learn to lose it.
I know I have learned a lot here and lost a stack of anger.
Pity that she won't have that chance.

[jorr lundstrom]

The clinging is the action. Clinging to something non existing is a wierd action. LOL

Non cling can be seen as , letting go. Letting things evolve and leave without interfering

is a way to handle this time of transition. LOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf9w2hJIqUk

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

As an afterthought, I would like to say that I was wrong when I said I am not pretending to be anything.
Do we not "pretend" or play roles every single day?
I am a wife, a mother, a sister. I am this and I am that.
I believe this , I think that.
I am consciousness, awareness, ignorance, all and nothing.

Aren´t we all the ring master and clown in our own little universal circus?


I, too, am sorry to see that she has retired.
I hope she takes Tony up on his offer to chat via email.

[Tony]

I feel, though uncomfortable, inner conflict is meaningful.
It means that for a moment we stop going round in circles.

This is why this forum can act as a support for one another.
This forum can be a good space...a little frustrating at times,
but a good space.

Respect:rockon:

[Lord Sidious]

I feel, though uncomfortable, inner conflict is meaningful.
It means that for a moment we stop going round in circles.

This is why this forum can act as a support for one another.
This forum can be a good space...a little frustrating at times,
but a good space.

Respect:rockon:

This forum is the most useful forum I have ever seen.
Thanks to people like you pinealnugget.
Thanks for your posts, I have learned much from you.

[music]

Damn.
Eileen has a lot of anger and this is where she will learn to lose it.
I know I have learned a lot here and lost a stack of anger.
Pity that she won't have that chance.

I agree, but to play Devil's advocate, we are all to a greater or lesser extent, vulnerable. I feel that she had the capacity to be really damaging to certain kinds of vulnerability, and to use this to her own end. There is no doubt she has some kind of psychic ability, and I certainly felt she was trying to get into my head at one point. I'll allow this may even have been unconscious on her part, or maybe even my own projection, or a combination of the two. I did as I do always in this situation. I sent her Love.

Those reservations aside though, you are right-minded, and I feel as you do, that with the right mix of thought and Love, she could learn to follow her own path while respecting the path of others.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


As an afterthought, I would like to say that I was wrong when I said I am not pretending to be anything.
Do we not "pretend" or play roles every single day?
I am a wife, a mother, a sister. I am this and I am that.
I believe this , I think that.
I am consciousness, awareness, ignorance, all and nothing.

Aren´t we all the ring master and clown in our own little universal circus?




Knowing that we pretend is a great awareness :)

[music]

I feel, though uncomfortable, inner conflict is meaningful.
It means that for a moment we stop going round in circles.

This is why this forum can act as a support for one another.
This forum can be a good space...a little frustrating at times,
but a good space.

Respect:rockon:

we live, we learn

[jorr lundstrom]

I feel, though uncomfortable, inner conflict is meaningful.
It means that for a moment we stop going round in circles.

This is why this forum can act as a support for one another.
This forum can be a good space...a little frustrating at times,
but a good space.

Respect:rockon:


Tony, I too experience frustation now and then. Its when I have expexted others

to understand wot Im writing and I realize they dont. But I also realize its me

expecting that is the bandit. To me the mother of frustation is expectations.

And it certainly is a tricky one. LOL

[ThePythonicCow]

To me the mother of frustation is expectations.
Yes, indeed.

I got a lesson in this when I used to commute to work. I noticed that if traffic was its usual slow self during normal commute hours, I calmly poked along, comfortable in my expectation that it would take me an extra hour to get to work. But if the same traffic showed up off-hours, I quickly became frustrated and angry, shouting at the world.

It was all in my expectations.

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Hello, here I am again. :becky:

I listened to an interesting talk by Alan Watts last night, which may, perhaps, lend some more insight into "letting go"

I loved his description of "The house that Jack built" meditation.


There is a wonderful meditation called 'The House that Jack Built Meditation,' at least that's what I call it, that the Southern Buddhists practice. He walks, and he says to himself, 'There is the lifting of the foot.' The next thing he says is 'There is a perception of the lifting of the foot.' And the next, he says 'There is a tendency towards the perception of the feeling of the lifting of the foot.' Then finally he says, 'There is a consciousness of the tendency of the perception of the feeling of the lifting of the foot.'



The transcript of the entire talk can be read here (http://deoxy.org/w_world.htm).





"Out of Your Mind" Lecture on "The World As Emptiness"

Here Watts puts on display his wide-ranging knowledge about Eastern and Western philosophy. Whether exploring the myth of ourselves based on our separation from others, the nature of selfishness, the fallacy of misplaced concreteness, or the illusion of the ego, Watts takes delight in demolishing the traps of conventional thinking. He asserts that we miss too much of the diversity and majesty of our experience when we close ourselves off to mystery, playfulness, and improvisation.



jORSR4cazwQ


Momento mori = Remember your mortality :)

[Anchor]

To me the mother of frustation is expectations.
Yes, indeed.

I got a lesson in this when I used to commute to work. I noticed that if traffic was its usual slow self during normal commute hours, I calmly poked along, comfortable in my expectation that it would take me an extra hour to get to work. But if the same traffic showed up off-hours, I quickly became frustrated and angry, shouting at the world.

It was all in my expectations.

There is so much in this that is good to understand.

Its such a good observation. It explores the time illusion and the notion that what we see in the reflected world is very much what is going on inside us.

I do think that we experience what we project, unfortunately for our waking minds some of that projection comes from a part deep within us that we don't even know about it.