View Full Version : Older German Cars
Lord Sidious
31st October 2011, 06:30
Greetings communis.................oops, avalonuggets. :p
I have been looking for info on how German cars from the 30's were wired to resist rust.
I can't remember all the details and I am not an electrician, although force lightning is a handy skill.
Anyways, these cars had their electrical system and earth wired differently to resist oxidisation/rust.
Does anyone know about this?
Healthy Skeptic
31st October 2011, 07:00
Yes, these and a lot of British cars in the 50's and 60's were POSITIVELY Earthed.
The theory behind this was that, as the Earth is Positively charged, if the car was positively charged, then it would resist 'rust'.
Rust is produced due to the Positive and Negative charges reacting with each other, and if the car is positively charged, the 'Ions' in the car and the Earth would repel each other therefore little or no Rust.
The reason why cars are now NEGATIVELY Earthed (and susceptible to rusting) is due to 'Political' reasons.
Benjamin Franklin did a famous experiment. He rubbed a wool cloth and put it near a slab of wax. He observed 'static' electricity between them. He 'assumed' that the electricity was travelling from the block of wax (Positive) to the Wool cloth (Negative). This became the 'convention' for the path of Electricity. Electrical Engineers all believe this to be true. Their 'Lobbying' convinced car manufacturers to adopt Negative Earth for cars. It is due to this that we have 'Rusty Cars'. Ask any Chemist or Quantum Mechanics person and they will tell you that Electricity travels from NEGATIVE to POSITIVE !!!
Lord Sidious
31st October 2011, 07:21
Yes, these and a lot of British cars in the 50's and 60's were POSITIVELY Earthed.
The theory behind this was that, as the Earth is Positively charged, if the car was positively charged, then it would resist 'rust'.
Rust is produced due to the Positive and Negative charges reacting with each other, and if the car is positively charged, the 'Ions' in the car and the Earth would repel each other therefore little or no Rust.
The reason why cars are now NEGATIVELY Earthed (and susceptible to rusting) is due to 'Political' reasons.
Benjamin Franklin did a famous experiment. He rubbed a wool cloth and put it near a slab of wax. He observed 'static' electricity between them. He 'assumed' that the electricity was travelling from the block of wax (Positive) to the Wool cloth (Negative). This became the 'convention' for the path of Electricity. Electrical Engineers all believe this to be true. Their 'Lobbying' convinced car manufacturers to adopt Negative Earth for cars. It is due to this that we have 'Rusty Cars'. Ask any Chemist or Quantum Mechanics person and they will tell you that Electricity travels from NEGATIVE to POSITIVE !!!
Plus, if the cars don't rust, the car companies make nothing from replacement parts.
Thanks for that, I will look into this.
truth4me
31st October 2011, 07:39
Yes, these and a lot of British cars in the 50's and 60's were POSITIVELY Earthed.
The theory behind this was that, as the Earth is Positively charged, if the car was positively charged, then it would resist 'rust'.
Rust is produced due to the Positive and Negative charges reacting with each other, and if the car is positively charged, the 'Ions' in the car and the Earth would repel each other therefore little or no Rust.
The reason why cars are now NEGATIVELY Earthed (and susceptible to rusting) is due to 'Political' reasons.
Benjamin Franklin did a famous experiment. He rubbed a wool cloth and put it near a slab of wax. He observed 'static' electricity between them. He 'assumed' that the electricity was travelling from the block of wax (Positive) to the Wool cloth (Negative). This became the 'convention' for the path of Electricity. Electrical Engineers all believe this to be true. Their 'Lobbying' convinced car manufacturers to adopt Negative Earth for cars. It is due to this that we have 'Rusty Cars'. Ask any Chemist or Quantum Mechanics person and they will tell you that Electricity travels from NEGATIVE to POSITIVE !!!
Plus, if the cars don't rust, the car companies make nothing from replacement parts.
Thanks for that, I will look into this.You know it's sad that just about everything in this world is geared on money......
Lily de Cuir
31st October 2011, 07:58
Hi Lord Sid,
This may mean nothing or something, so just chiming in with my two cents worth.
Once upon a time I owned a 1968 AUTOMATIC VW Beetle. (Very rare). It was in great condition, but sadly had to sell it when I went on one of my overseas adventures.
The owner told me it was imported from Germany and was rust proof. And it indeed it had no rust. I bought it around early 1980's.
Cheers,:yo:
Lily de Cuir
Healthy Skeptic
31st October 2011, 08:17
Hi Lord Sid,
This may mean nothing or something, so just chiming in with my two cents worth.
Once upon a time I owned a 1968 AUTOMATIC VW Beetle. (Very rare). It was in great condition, but sadly had to sell it when I went on one of my overseas adventures.
The owner told me it was imported from Germany and was rust proof. And it indeed it had no rust. I bought it around early 1980's.
Cheers,:yo:
Lily de Cuir
I know it means nothing to you but I will BET it was POSITIVELY Earthed.
Sorry about you 'losing your dear VW friend'.
With Love, HS
Lily de Cuir
31st October 2011, 08:57
Hi Lord Sid,
This may mean nothing or something, so just chiming in with my two cents worth.
Once upon a time I owned a 1968 AUTOMATIC VW Beetle. (Very rare). It was in great condition, but sadly had to sell it when I went on one of my overseas adventures.
The owner told me it was imported from Germany and was rust proof. And it indeed it had no rust. I bought it around early 1980's.
Cheers,:yo:
Lily de Cuir
I know it means nothing to you but I will BET it was POSITIVELY Earthed.
Sorry about you 'losing your dear VW friend'.
With Love, HS
Hi Healthy Skeptic, hope this is not a double post, having probs with my net connection. Tried before and lost my post.
Yeah, it was a beauty alright, I actually sold it for more than I bought it for, wonder why?
My very first car was a 1963 VW Manual, with a heating pipe that came out under the driver's seat. Fond memories of that car, driving home from the local pub in the days of my youth, lol....
Cheers,
Lily
Healthy Skeptic
31st October 2011, 09:15
Hi Healthy Skeptic, hope this is not a double post, having probs with my net connection. Tried before and lost my post.
Yeah, it was a beauty alright, I actually sold it for more than I bought it for, wonder why?
My very first car was a 1963 VW Manual, with a heating pipe that came out under the driver's seat. Fond memories of that car, driving home from the local pub in the days of my youth, lol....
Cheers,
Lily
Isn't it Funny. How can us 'Old Farts' get so 'attached' to things?
I'm just an 'old guy' but I 'love' anything that I have come into contact with.
'No Hope for me' !! Oh, well, that is life. I hope things are working out for you.
Take Care, HS
Lily de Cuir
31st October 2011, 09:27
Hi Healthy Skeptic, hope this is not a double post, having probs with my net connection. Tried before and lost my post.
Yeah, it was a beauty alright, I actually sold it for more than I bought it for, wonder why?
My very first car was a 1963 VW Manual, with a heating pipe that came out under the driver's seat. Fond memories of that car, driving home from the local pub in the days of my youth, lol....
Cheers,
Lily
Isn't it Funny. How can us 'Old Farts' get so 'attached' to things?
I'm just an 'old guy' but I 'love' anything that I have come into contact with.
'No Hope for me' !! Oh, well, that is life. I hope things are working out for you.
Take Care, HS
Well, HS,
That is because we are the same age, lol....
Lily
Healthy Skeptic
31st October 2011, 09:45
[/QUOTE]
Well, HS,
That is because we are the same age, lol....
Lily[/QUOTE]
Thank you!! But we've gone WAY OFF TOPIC.
Lord Sid is talking about Old German Cars on this thread.
We'd better stick to it. Sorry MODS.
With Love, HS
Lily de Cuir
31st October 2011, 09:48
Back to the German cars of old....
Tony
31st October 2011, 10:11
I wonder if this has anything to do with the 'orgone' principle?
Healthy Skeptic
31st October 2011, 10:13
Back to the German cars of old....
Yes. 'Compost' Happens in Life!!
Healthy Skeptic
31st October 2011, 10:26
I wonder if this has anything to do with the 'orgone' principle?
Bite your tongue!! What is this word 'Orgone' ??
This does not exist in the PTB Dictionary. You repeat it again and you will have MIB at your place!!
Lily de Cuir
31st October 2011, 10:34
Well, I may be waxing lyrical at this late stage at night. But just can't help thinking the whole German/Nazi/Science/Project Paperclip thing, has had an impact on us somewhat.
Some things have slipped through the net - on purpose of course, to test things.
Sorry M'Lord to get off topic from your original question, but sometimes it's interesting to see how organically things can grow on a thread. Sometimes I think it's better to let threads go wherever they want instead of staying on topic.
It can get very interesting that way....
You can all slap me down if you want....lol....:party:
Love Lily
x
KiwiElf
31st October 2011, 10:45
I still have my German assembled '72 Super Beetle which has little rust and is currently being restored. (I've owned six, all German assembled, the earliest was a 1960 model 1200) and they are ALL NEGATIVE Earthed and they all eventually get rust.
The worst spot being where the brake fluid containers, mounted in the front luggage compartment, eventually leak and the corrosive fluid does the rest. Also the drip rails (seams where the sides meet the roof) and bottom of the doors, door pillars and where the runnng boards attach.
Has more to do with a good design (an old Beetle has few rust traps), the better assembly in Germany than other countries, and they used thicker gauge steel. The German assembled Beetles had a better standard of build than Rolls Royce. The Australian, Brazilian and Sth African Bugs being the worst and they rusted like crazy - largely because they weren't zinc dipped unlike the German vsns. Brazilian VWs didn't have the inside panels even painted - just bare metal - and would arrive on the docks here brand new with rust already right through them.
Early Porsches before 1973 were also rust buckets - talk to anyone who has restored them. Depends very much on whether the cars are garaged and the climate you live in. Old Mercs are usually very good.
As for English cars of old, some were POSITIVE earthed and they ALL rusted; from the early Mini, the worst being the MGBs which rusted because they WERE POSITIVE earthed, right the way through most of the entire British Leyland cars, Jaguars and *gasp* even Rolls Royces.
If you live in a wet, or snowy (particularly if they salt the roads) or salt air environment near the sea or coast, sooner or later these cars will rust.
Modern cars are galvanised (an electrostatic process) which resists rust much better. But if it's scratched off or accident damaged, they WILL rust.
Lord Sidious
31st October 2011, 10:56
Well, I may be waxing lyrical at this late stage at night. But just can't help thinking the whole German/Nazi/Science/Project Paperclip thing, has had an impact on us somewhat.
Some things have slipped through the net - on purpose of course, to test things.
Sorry M'Lord to get off topic from your original question, but sometimes it's interesting to see how organically things can grow on a thread. Sometimes I think it's better to let threads go wherever they want instead of staying on topic.
It can get very interesting that way....
You can all slap me down if you want....lol....:party:
Love Lily
x
Get back in your hole, nugget.
Oops, I meant, yeah, thanks for that.
Or some s**t. :p
Lily de Cuir
31st October 2011, 11:06
Hi Everyone,
Lord Sid has reactivated my memories of cars! My Dad had a 'Standard', racing car green when I think, I was 3 years old. After that we had an Austin A-40, had many adventures with that bloody thing, towing caravans throughout NSW and QLD.
I used to collect miniature cars as a little girl and my Dad encouraged me.
My parents are both gone now. I have very fond memories. And not so fond memories. (Nothing dramatic).;)
Cars are a funny thing. They are symbolic of travel, going somewhere, getting to a destination. I dream of driving every night.
Going fast, trying to drive up hills, getting stuck, being out of control, getting control of the car again.
Metaphor for life I suppose, lol...:wave:
Love to All.
Love Lily
x
Lily de Cuir
31st October 2011, 11:35
Well, I may be waxing lyrical at this late stage at night. But just can't help thinking the whole German/Nazi/Science/Project Paperclip thing, has had an impact on us somewhat.
Some things have slipped through the net - on purpose of course, to test things.
Sorry M'Lord to get off topic from your original question, but sometimes it's interesting to see how organically things can grow on a thread. Sometimes I think it's better to let threads go wherever they want instead of staying on topic.
It can get very interesting that way....
You can all slap me down if you want....lol....:party:
Love Lily
x
Get back in your hole, nugget.
Oops, I meant, yeah, thanks for that.
Or some s**t. :p
Good Evening, Lord Sid,
I know you don't mean that..:jester:
Love Lily
xxx
Healthy Skeptic
31st October 2011, 11:37
Hi Everyone,
Lord Sid has reactivated my memories of cars! My Dad had a 'Standard', racing car green when I think, I was 3 years old. After that we had an Austin A-40, had many adventures with that bloody thing, towing caravans throughout NSW and QLD.
I used to collect miniature cars as a little girl and my Dad encouraged me.
My parents are both gone now. I have very fond memories. And not so fond memories. (Nothing dramatic).;)
Cars are a funny thing. They are symbolic of travel, going somewhere, getting to a destination. I dream of driving every night.
Going fast, trying to drive up hills, getting stuck, being out of control, getting control of the car again.
Metaphor for life I suppose, lol...:wave:
Love to All.
Love Lily
x
We all have memories good or bad , I am very sorry about your Parents.
Things are never easy in life, but I always remind myself that it doesn't matter how 'bad things seem to be in life' that other people in this world have it '10 times worse'.
This seems to be an 'exaggeration' but I can assure you that it isn't. Unfortunately in my life I have experienced very 'tragic' things. I will not 'dwell' upon these things but I can assure people that there is a 'light at the end of the tunnel'. We must all 'battle on'' and in the end, we will 'get there'.
Sometimes, when 'tragedy' happens, It makes us stronger to face what life gives us in the future.
With Love, HS
Lily de Cuir
31st October 2011, 11:58
Hi Everyone,
Lord Sid has reactivated my memories of cars! My Dad had a 'Standard', racing car green when I think, I was 3 years old. After that we had an Austin A-40, had many adventures with that bloody thing, towing caravans throughout NSW and QLD.
I used to collect miniature cars as a little girl and my Dad encouraged me.
My parents are both gone now. I have very fond memories. And not so fond memories. (Nothing dramatic).;)
Cars are a funny thing. They are symbolic of travel, going somewhere, getting to a destination. I dream of driving every night.
Going fast, trying to drive up hills, getting stuck, being out of control, getting control of the car again.
Metaphor for life I suppose, lol...:wave:
Love to All.
Love Lily
x
We all have memories good or bad , I am very sorry about your Parents.
Things are never easy in life, but I always remind myself that it doesn't matter how 'bad things seem to be in life' that other people in this world have it '10 times worse'.
This seems to be an 'exaggeration' but I can assure you that it isn't. Unfortunately in my life I have experienced very 'tragic' things. I will not 'dwell' upon these things but I can assure people that there is a 'light at the end of the tunnel'. We must all 'battle on'' and in the end, we will 'get there'.
Sometimes, when 'tradgedy' happens, It makes us stronger to face what life gives us in the future.
With Love, HS
Amen....
Love Lily
x
Eric J (Viking)
31st October 2011, 12:46
Hi Sid slightly off topic... The older cars were made to last and always minimum expenditure...
If the economy does collapse and we have a complete breakdown of society, I would recommend an old diesel car without the updated technology ... chips/circuit boards ect etc ...
You want something that will last as long as possible without the need for diagnostic checks ect etc ... until other technology is introduced down the line! ;-)
I drive an old Mercedes 330d which is built like a tank and very simple technology...in fact you could even convert it to run on veggie oil ...
Also make sure you have a bike...
check here...
quote
"Roads will most likely be in disrepair, but not demolished. Gas will be scarce. And the have-nots will be really ticked off when they see you traveling in style. First off consider getting fuel. Diesel would likely be the best bet. It is a natural by-product of refining gasoline, so it will still be produced. You *can* make your own. Not the easiest thing in the world, but waste veggie oil should still be available for free. Diesels are generally more tolerant of different types and grades or cleanliness of fuel. Diesel engines are generally more simple in terms of mechanical parts, so they would be easier to repair. A small diesel, like an old Mercedes or VW Rabbit would probably do well. Other than that, you'd be looking for fuel efficiency, so a small car (4-6cyl) would be best. Toyota pickups, imports, econoboxes. Older would generally be better, as you can do repairs yourself and repairs will be too expensive for newer cars. A main problem I can see with small import cars (Honda, Kia) is that while long-lasting and durable, I would not use 'rugged' to describe them. Any mishap with an angry mob, or a fender bender (face it, there will be no car insurance) can leave you stranded and car-less. A small pickup would be your best bet out of these. Another idea would be a dual-sport motorcycle. These range from barely street legal dirt bikes to BMW street bikes with added ground clearance and knobby tires. They get great mileage, and can take you on shortcuts a car can't. Problems are no protection for you, and they might easily be stolen. Likely, however, most of us will be using whatever we have, because an economic collapse will hinder your ability to go out and purchase the perfect vehicle."
http://disastersurvivalwiki.wetpaint.com/thread/1916941/Best+vehicle+for+an+economic+collapse
viking
conk
31st October 2011, 14:06
...much like lightning travels from the ground to the sky, not as everyone imagines, from the sky downward.
I had a 1960s era MG. I bought a new tape deck for it and installed it. Turned it on and it went up in smoke. Hmmmm, defective? Took it back to the store and traded for a different one. Installed it and poof, more smoke. Hmmmm, finally I figured out that it was positively grounded.
crested-duck
31st October 2011, 14:25
HS can you give a crash course/cliff notes on how I can rewire my vehicles to not rust. Got way too much invested in a radical old 4x4 and would like to keep it for a long time. Maybe you could start a thread for mechanically inclined folks willing to take on the task at hand.
Lord Sidious
31st October 2011, 14:43
HS can you give a crash course/cliff notes on how I can rewire my vehicles to not rust. Got way too much invested in a radical old 4x4 and would like to keep it for a long time. Maybe you could start a thread for mechanically inclined folks willing to take on the task at hand.
Dats smart tinkin dere brudder. :p
Mad Hatter
31st October 2011, 14:52
WARNING All cars built in the UK have been wired by the 'Prince of Darkness' in other words they have been 'Lucas'ed...:p
PS I thought everyone knew that all things electrical run on smoke... let that out and it'll stop working every time!!
Davidallany
31st October 2011, 15:07
My Lord, our intelligence have been tracking old German cars, and found this model. We are attempting aggressive negotiations with the owner for he is a Jedi sleemo.
Truly,
Count Dooku
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/29/landspeeder.jpg
Lazlo
31st October 2011, 15:36
HS can you give a crash course/cliff notes on how I can rewire my vehicles to not rust. Got way too much invested in a radical old 4x4 and would like to keep it for a long time. Maybe you could start a thread for mechanically inclined folks willing to take on the task at hand.
DO NOT TRY THIS WITH A MODERN VEHICLE !!!!!!!
You will fry everything electronic: the starter, alternator, ignition, engine management system, anything you plug into the cigarette lighter, the fuel pump....You can not buy these modern electronic items in a positively grounded configuration. There are blocking diodes and resistors that are only configured for the current flow in a neg system.
The brits changed to negative grounding in 1968 because it was way cheaper to do so in that everyone else was making negatively grounded components.
Kiwielf is the only person on this thread who is making any sense.
Trust me, if you really could run some current through a system and positively ground it to prevent rust, industry would be doing it. I know firsthand that this is the case.
I am in the solar power biz and we build utility scale PV power plants. PV systems can either be positive, negative, or floating ground. If we could do the positive ground configuration and preclude the use of expensive aluminum, stainless, and galvanized components, WE WOULD. The costs are literally in the millions of dollars for a large power plant.
We are "behind the fence" in utility terminology and don't need to comply with the NEC (national electric code) so there is nothing to prevent us from doing it.
The whole concept that a positively grounded system will prevent rust is a persistent myth. Nothing more.
Carmody
31st October 2011, 16:58
SKODA cars were wired with positive ground.
Which was fun, when they had accidents with negative ground wired cars.
I was also electrocuted one day, when I was standing between a negative ground car and a Skoda, and it was raining. And I put a hand on each car. Only about 27 volts or so, thus no real current drive to lock my body up so I would be 'frozen'....but it was interesting.
Right now...Toyota is using a powered system (voltage drive/charge of the skin of the vehicle) to try and keep the rust away.
They are very quiet about it, but it is out there. They have reason for being quiet about it. They got hammered by Bush senior back in the 90's when they tried to bring 'Minato Motor (http://www.rexresearch.com/minato/minato.htm)' powered over unity electric cars into North America. (read other stuff at the minato link, one of the best on the net, if not the best)
http://www.squamishtoyota.com/diamond-kote-protection-for-your-car.htm
DK 9000 Corrosion Control Module
What is the DK 9000 Corrosion Management System?
Vehicle corrosion is an electrochemical process involving the deterioration of steel because of its reaction with the environment.
The DK 9000 Corrosion Management System combines electronically controlled pulse-impressed current and sacrificial anode technology to control the increased flow of electrons away from steel. [dk mODULE.jpg]
DK 9000 Dual Bodyguard Technology
The state-of-the art microprocessor module impresses a safe and controlled direct current pulse of electricity to polarize the steel and reduce corrosion.
In addition to the impressed current method of protection, the DK 9000 offers an extra level of corrosion prevention. The DK 9000 sacrificial anodes possess a lower corrosion potential than steel and a naturally higher positive charge than the vehicle body and thereby become consumed by corrosion, ahead of the vehicle's steel.
A connected technology:
http://www.r-charge.com/
It is not very often that industry sees a sudden, large leap forward when it comes to 100 year old technology. But once in a while, lightning strikes, and the effects on the industry's economy cannot be ignored. With a product line to cover anything from an "AAA" to an electric car battery, Renaissance Charge is pleased to bring to the marketplace the first radiant battery chargers that radically reduce battery replacement costs while dramatically increasing battery capacity.
conk
31st October 2011, 18:23
WARNING All cars built in the UK have been wired by the 'Prince of Darkness' in other words they have been 'Lucas'ed...:p
PS I thought everyone knew that all things electrical run on smoke... let that out and it'll stop working every time!! Yep, good ole Lucas wiring. My MG wiring harness went up in smoke one day, a block from my house. Had to replace the whole car's wiring. Costly!
Once saw a Jaguar on the side of the road with "F... You Lucas" written across the back windshield. ;)
Lord Sidious
31st October 2011, 18:27
My Lord, our intelligence have been tracking old German cars, and found this model. We are attempting aggressive negotiations with the owner for he is a Jedi sleemo.
Truly,
Count Dooku
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/29/landspeeder.jpg
Dooku you nugget, get back to working on finding and turning Skywalker, that isn't the speeder we are looking for.
crested-duck
31st October 2011, 18:41
Oh well nobody can say I did'nt try to think outside the box, at least now I'm living in the south and do'nt have to worry about road salt too much any more.
ThePythonicCow
31st October 2011, 22:41
DO NOT TRY THIS WITH A MODERN VEHICLE !!!!!!!
You will fry everything electronic: the starter, alternator, ignition, engine management system, anything you plug into the cigarette lighter, the fuel pump....
Everything but the lamps (lights). Those are pure resistive loads (unless you have some LED lamps in some positions on recent cars.) They shouldn't mind the electricity running backwards.
wolf_rt
1st November 2011, 02:38
Yeah heaps of cars have been positively earthed over the years... you don't see to many today, mostly because they have all rusted away, alongside there negatively earthed companions...
Of all the cars i have owned, all had some rust... the least rusty was a 1967 Chrysler Valiant, due to the fact that it was galvanized.
Also the 1969 Toyota Hi-Lux due to good design. (The plenum chamber that supplies fresh air to the cab, was not fed via the usual 'slots' in front of the windshield, but via a tunnel built into the structure of the bonnet... hence no leaves/mud/water/rust in the plenum!)
Davidallany
1st November 2011, 07:31
Dooku you nugget, get back to working on finding and turning Skywalker, that isn't the speeder we are looking for
It shall be done my Lord. Everything is proceeding as you have foreseen it.
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