Ancient Astronauts Debunked?

[last50cobra]

The "Alien" Elongated Skulls

I've blogged about these skulls over at PaleoBabble. The picture on the site is a facsimile of the elongated skulls you'll see promoted on ancient astronaut sites -- but the one I use comes from a medical supply company. That alone should tell you something. Yes,. Virginia, real scientists are aware of these skulls and don't think they are anything alien at all. For the company's website and a couple scholarly articles from peer-reviewed journals about those "alien" alongated Peruvian skulls. click here (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/07/ancient-elongated-skulls-alien-remains/) to go to my post.


* Alien Fetuses in King Tut's Tomb? (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/07/alien-fetus-in-king-tuts-tomb/) Nope
* Did aliens build Machu Picchu? (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/07/stone-masonry-and-engineering-at-machu-picchu-no-aliens-needed/) Nope
* Does Akhenaten's unusual physique prove he had alien DNA? (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/05/pharaoh-akhenatens-unusual-physique-proof-of-alien-dna/) Nope
* Did the Egyptians need aliens or alien technology to build the pyramids? Nope (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/01/did-the-egyptians-need-alien-technology-to-build-the-pyramids/) and Nope (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/03/the-construction-of-the-pyramids/)

UFOs in Medieval and Renaissance Art?

I'm not an art historian, but Diego Cuoghi is. He's taken a careful and lengthy look (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2008/05/ufos-in-religious-art-nope/)at the artwork promoted by Matthew Hurley and others to promote the idea that a range of artists were putting flying saucers in their works. Nope.

Qumran Scroll: Fragmentary Text of 4QAmram

The manuscript remains pictured on the homepage of the website is an Aramaic fragment of the book of Enoch (1 Enoch 6:4-8) known as 4Q201, fragment 1, col. iii (=4QEnocha aramaic). It's significance is that it is one of the few Aramaic texts from Qumran that mention giants. It also distinguishes the giants from the Watchers, 1 Enoch's term for the "sons of God" of Genesis 6:1-4. Sitchin equates the two groups, whereas the ancient texts do not.

Another Dead Sea scroll text about the same subject (the Genesis 6 story of the sons of God/Watchers and their offspring, the nephilim, is called the Genesis Apocryphon. Sitchin quotes from this text in his book Stairway to Heaven, on pages 110-112. In an effort to defend his idea that the nephilim and the sons of God are the same. As I discuss on the "Nephilim" page on this website (http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/nephilim/nephilim.htm), he mistranslates this text and fails to notice it is written in Aramaic, not Hebrew.

Cylinder Seal VA243 [what Sitchin based his theories on]

This cylinder seal is discussed in detail on this site (http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/VA243/VA243.htm). It does not show 12 planets, as Sitchin claims.

Post from: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/ancientastro/ancientastro.htm

[Bill Ryan]

-------


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmMwo1Xzgus

[Cidersomerset]

Hi Last50cobra now you have got that off your chest is there anywhere you want to go with this ?

I was going to put up the Claus Donna interview but Bill beat me to it...LOL...

Do you have anythoughts on pre ice age flood civilisations as Graeme Hancock And Robert Bauval put forward....before 10,000 BC....

nQZFS9Hij0M

[geoff]

Dead sea scrolls, book of Enoch. Genuine. nope
vZwAMAstnPk

[noprophet]

The problem with Skull Binding: Skull Binding can deform current bone tissue but not create more tissue than already formed.

Coin operated?

[jagman]

So you think with a few pieces of information, You have debunked the Ancient Astronaut Theory? Is this a Joke? You will have to do better than that
dude! I can match you scientific article for article!!!!! And so can many other fellow Avalonians!!! And I urge them too!

[DouglasDanger]

The problem with Skull Binding: Skull Binding can deform current bone tissue but not create more tissue than already formed.

Coin operated?

Loonies only Ha!..
( Canadian joke)

This type of disclosure is welcomed by me, even if unesisary debunking of its posibilities follows, it still had people in mainstream TV watching (with out knowledge of such great sites like project Avalon/Camelot) asking questions and begining to search for thier own enlightenment.
The show was brought to my attention by one of the most pompus pig headed closeminded family members I have,( I do not have cable or TV ) He is no longer as pig headed or close minded, he looks for answers himself now and even ignores his 30 years with the mainstream media information as useless and possibly fraudulent.. And he anchored CBC News on the east coast of Canada for over a decade.....

[161803398]

The Austrialia/Antarctica connection was interesting but I don't buy the "its just art" connection.

I saw a beautiful UFO over a total period of three days; about one half hour on each of the first two days and a short time the third day. If I saw one; then other people have seen them as well in the history of our world and I know the effect it had on me. So, to me, it is unlikely something that a painter interested in spiritual matters would ignore and its also a valid question.

[Arc]

The "Alien" Elongated Skulls

I've blogged about these skulls over at PaleoBabble. The picture on the site is a facsimile of the elongated skulls you'll see promoted on ancient astronaut sites -- but the one I use comes from a medical supply company. That alone should tell you something. Yes,. Virginia, real scientists are aware of these skulls and don't think they are anything alien at all. For the company's website and a couple scholarly articles from peer-reviewed journals about those "alien" alongated Peruvian skulls. click here (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/07/ancient-elongated-skulls-alien-remains/) to go to my post.


* Alien Fetuses in King Tut's Tomb? (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/07/alien-fetus-in-king-tuts-tomb/) Nope
* Did aliens build Machu Picchu? (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/07/stone-masonry-and-engineering-at-machu-picchu-no-aliens-needed/) Nope
* Does Akhenaten's unusual physique prove he had alien DNA? (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/05/pharaoh-akhenatens-unusual-physique-proof-of-alien-dna/) Nope
* Did the Egyptians need aliens or alien technology to build the pyramids? Nope (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/01/did-the-egyptians-need-alien-technology-to-build-the-pyramids/) and Nope (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/03/the-construction-of-the-pyramids/)

UFOs in Medieval and Renaissance Art?

I'm not an art historian, but Diego Cuoghi is. He's taken a careful and lengthy look (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2008/05/ufos-in-religious-art-nope/)at the artwork promoted by Matthew Hurley and others to promote the idea that a range of artists were putting flying saucers in their works. Nope.

Qumran Scroll: Fragmentary Text of 4QAmram

The manuscript remains pictured on the homepage of the website is an Aramaic fragment of the book of Enoch (1 Enoch 6:4-8) known as 4Q201, fragment 1, col. iii (=4QEnocha aramaic). It's significance is that it is one of the few Aramaic texts from Qumran that mention giants. It also distinguishes the giants from the Watchers, 1 Enoch's term for the "sons of God" of Genesis 6:1-4. Sitchin equates the two groups, whereas the ancient texts do not.

Another Dead Sea scroll text about the same subject (the Genesis 6 story of the sons of God/Watchers and their offspring, the nephilim, is called the Genesis Apocryphon. Sitchin quotes from this text in his book Stairway to Heaven, on pages 110-112. In an effort to defend his idea that the nephilim and the sons of God are the same. As I discuss on the "Nephilim" page on this website (http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/nephilim/nephilim.htm), he mistranslates this text and fails to notice it is written in Aramaic, not Hebrew.

Cylinder Seal VA243 [what Sitchin based his theories on]

This cylinder seal is discussed in detail on this site (http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/VA243/VA243.htm). It does not show 12 planets, as Sitchin claims.

Post from: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/ancientastro/ancientastro.htm

It is true that there is mis- and dis- information sprinkled about and so sometimes we must carefully sort through all of this (at least even the portions that are not hidden - miss-ing information) to find the real story.

However, this concept of "debunking" is often misused as a way to use the mis-/dis-/missing information to try to only discredit a point of view, true case study, or a reasonable conclusion. Debunking is often used to throw the baby out with the bath water. And, then, we should always consider the motives of those groups who purposely inject the bad information into the discussion in the first place, so that later, they can circle back and "debunk" something they don't want known.

I'm not interested in "debunking" because it comes off as a smear tactic, and not a means to find the truth.

But, we can certainly debate the details to ferret out the phony items, without losing sight of real information, no matter how strange.

[Lord Sidious]

You might find that our ''friend'' mr cobra is ''debunking'' everything.
I think he is in the wrong place.

[Arc]

You might find that our ''friend'' mr cobra is ''debunking'' everything.
I think he is in the wrong place.

I noticed that also. Perhaps he is in the right place but for the wrong reasons...

I was thinking about a recent insightful thread on how to manipulate a forum with different tactics, including sleeper type accounts created, aged, and then used to slide in dis-info or counter view points.

Mr Cobra, which agency are you working, err.. debunking for? I mean who is paying you? haha...

You may also want to consider that some members here have more intuitive and psychic discernment beyond the text and words on the screen. ;)

If you are just an innocent newbie, then cheers Friend. Come, join us and listen a bit more. And, you may want to keep more of an open mind.

[modwiz]

Welcome to Avalon last50cobra. We will be sure not to miss your offerings.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


You might find that our ''friend'' mr cobra is ''debunking'' everything.
I think he is in the wrong place.

A very busy snake, this one. I wonder if cobras live in aspholes and if the asphole is big enough can a weasel fit in it?

[Xenos]

Well...


The "Alien" Elongated Skulls

I've blogged about these skulls over at PaleoBabble. The picture on the site is a facsimile of the elongated skulls you'll see promoted on ancient astronaut sites -- but the one I use comes from a medical supply company. That alone should tell you something. Yes,. Virginia, real scientists are aware of these skulls and don't think they are anything alien at all. For the company's website and a couple scholarly articles from peer-reviewed journals about those "alien" alongated Peruvian skulls. click here (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/07/ancient-elongated-skulls-alien-remains/) to go to my post.


* Alien Fetuses in King Tut's Tomb? (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/07/alien-fetus-in-king-tuts-tomb/) Nope
* Did aliens build Machu Picchu? (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/07/stone-masonry-and-engineering-at-machu-picchu-no-aliens-needed/) Nope
* Does Akhenaten's unusual physique prove he had alien DNA? (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/05/pharaoh-akhenatens-unusual-physique-proof-of-alien-dna/) Nope
* Did the Egyptians need aliens or alien technology to build the pyramids? Nope (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/01/did-the-egyptians-need-alien-technology-to-build-the-pyramids/) and Nope (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/03/the-construction-of-the-pyramids/)

UFOs in Medieval and Renaissance Art?

I'm not an art historian, but Diego Cuoghi is. He's taken a careful and lengthy look (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2008/05/ufos-in-religious-art-nope/)at the artwork promoted by Matthew Hurley and others to promote the idea that a range of artists were putting flying saucers in their works. Nope.

Qumran Scroll: Fragmentary Text of 4QAmram

The manuscript remains pictured on the homepage of the website is an Aramaic fragment of the book of Enoch (1 Enoch 6:4-8) known as 4Q201, fragment 1, col. iii (=4QEnocha aramaic). It's significance is that it is one of the few Aramaic texts from Qumran that mention giants. It also distinguishes the giants from the Watchers, 1 Enoch's term for the "sons of God" of Genesis 6:1-4. Sitchin equates the two groups, whereas the ancient texts do not.

Another Dead Sea scroll text about the same subject (the Genesis 6 story of the sons of God/Watchers and their offspring, the nephilim, is called the Genesis Apocryphon. Sitchin quotes from this text in his book Stairway to Heaven, on pages 110-112. In an effort to defend his idea that the nephilim and the sons of God are the same. As I discuss on the "Nephilim" page on this website (http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/nephilim/nephilim.htm), he mistranslates this text and fails to notice it is written in Aramaic, not Hebrew.

Cylinder Seal VA243 [what Sitchin based his theories on]

This cylinder seal is discussed in detail on this site (http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/VA243/VA243.htm). It does not show 12 planets, as Sitchin claims.

Post from: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/ancientastro/ancientastro.htm

I "real" anthropologist (which is science) would tell you too, that those elongated skull are also aesthetically. You see what i mean ? The bump on the forhead is also because the skull is growing and the lateral side are pressed by stuff... Why those deformation ? To be like... the gods. It is what they say... so maybe as a "true" scientist you don't take a look on the natives traditions...

If it was a real deformation, the neck couldn't resist to the weight too... so the child should die very early, and the skull very small don't you think ?

Building human monster is easy and as a medical, you maybe know about it.

What i truly love with "true" scientist, is from a common thing, they do a generality... i love professionalism. This is why, our society dominate by "specialist" is false, because through "real science" (lol i love real) we have G R E A T manipulation.

I have a friend that traveled in Algeria once and he saw scripture with E.T in a cave... very old... should be natural for a "real" scientist isn't it ? Sometime nature is so weird lol :) But who is really weird ?

You should maybe read the report of the Rand Corporation "ufo what to do", because american gov and all the gov in the whole world are agree that their presence is very old and fit in our history... i add... their presence is so close, that many of us don't see it anymore, because they grew in this world...

But time are changing and many will feel very alone in their certitude... that will be vanished :)


You might find that our ''friend'' mr cobra is ''debunking'' everything.
I think he is in the wrong place.

I like different point of view, because we evolve with difference... and stand still with same opinion :)

If we have all to be agree, so why we should share in this individual world ? The refuse of sharing idea and maybe to change our mind it is a goal for a forum, which is to share idea in the real sense of the words ?

Argue gets stronger too, because we know... that's why i personally doesn't mind, because it has to be that way.



You might find that our ''friend'' mr cobra is ''debunking'' everything.
I think he is in the wrong place.

I noticed that also. Perhaps he is in the right place but for the wrong reasons...

In this subject, what is a good reason or wrong reason ? To doubt on the data ? And so what ? It is so bad ? Are we in a unique way of thought or what ? I don't understand ? If people refuse to share, so the dictatorship is very close... only one way has to be approved ?

[Bright Garlick]

Nice post last50cobra - so much crap from Icke, Mutwa and Sitchin and having a certain high profile ex military person supporting the whole Sitchin movement is so very amusing. This is a new mythology that unfortunately has grown feet and wings. This is not reality, just deception, confusion, delusion and for some - money. A new religion which is creating more harm than good, more division than unity.

Believe in ancient aliens but none of the Annunaki bs that supports the idea of stupid, malevolent, insidious aliens. That's totally stupid and against the arrow of evolution and bloody common sense. And incidently it's a nice mythology to set the populace against the reality that there is a benevolent alien presence on Earth that has been here from the beginning.

Here's another nice interview arguing against the mythology : http://www.gnosticmedia.com/prof-john-rush-intervew-pt-3-ancient-aliens-myth-in-the-making-121/

We are a product of alien interventionism but the aliens are not as many who are driving this movement, have portrayed them.

Signing off from PA, Bright. :banplease: :yawn:

[Bright Garlick]

So much criticism of last50cobra which seems to founded on the fact he has does not agree with the majority. It's the lack of critical thinking, which I think drives people away from PA. Just because this myth is popular doesn't mean it holds water and people like last50cobra any less of an intellect than any one here. I for one say many who follow this 'idea' are creating their own self protective myths that keep you all very comfortable.

Sometimes a person believes something that is a radical departure from the norm but for solid reasons, of which only he himself may be aware and although he would like to share this with others, he cannot. But how often do people become blind, without ever knowing they cannot see and they imagine they see what others cannot see ?

[johnf]

Ancient Astronauts Debunked ? Nope.

[Lord Sidious]

So much criticism of last50cobra which seems to founded on the fact he has does not agree with the majority. It's the lack of critical thinking, which I think drives people away from PA. Just because this myth is popular doesn't mean it holds water and people like last50cobra any less of an intellect than any one here. I for one say many who follow this 'idea' are creating their own self protective myths that keep you all very comfortable.

Sometimes a person believes something that is a radical departure from the norm but for solid reasons, of which only he himself may be aware and although he would like to share this with others, he cannot. But how often do people become blind, without ever knowing they cannot see and they imagine they see what others cannot see ?

If you had bothered to read his other posts, that is why he is here, to ''debunk'' everything.
But, it seems you didn't bother to do your homework, much like you insinuate some of us didn't.
Talk about a lack of critical thinking.

[RMorgan]

Hi everyone,

Well, first I´d like to say that I´m not proud of some bad attitudes here towards last50cobra.

How about the 1th amendment that you (at least the North-Americans here) love to evoke all the time?

We must know that it is fundamental for any scientific discovery, to have people who agree and people who don´t agree with it. This is the only way to achieve an accurate result.

The so called debunkers are essential for science. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong, but it doesn´t matter after all. The dialogue raised by their questions is always important.

Secondly, I´d like to say that, when it comes to history, specially ancient History, It´s literally impossible to prove anything. It´s always about assumptions generated by selecting the most probable.

The only way to actually prove if ETs visited us in the past, who built the pyramids, if Jesus actually existed and these kind of things is to invent a time traveling machine and go back there, or to find real physical evidence, like a really advanced piece of ET technology. We´re not there yet.

Let´s praise the good debates. They are essential to this community.

Cheers,

Raf.

[mosquito]

All my life I've been of the view that we aren't alone in this universe, but I can neither prove nor DISPROVE it. Despite my beliefs, I've never really been into UFOlogy as such, finding there to be so much fantasy and fallacy dressed up as fact.
Thanks to Avalon I've recently discovered the Ancient Aliens series and fortunately I've been able to watch it in China. That there were advanced civilizations on Earth in our distant past cannot be denied, except by the most narrow-minded. The question that instantly arises though is - what happened to them ? What I find so neat about the ancient astronaut theory is that it provides a clear and simple answer - they went home. But it doesn't end there, the theory also provides a framework within which we can explain all the religious literature, describing beings descending from the sky, beings flying around in chariots of fire.

Is any of it "proof" ? No. But just as the existence of a deformed skull doesn't prove the existence of alien visitors, neither does establishing it as vbeing a bound human head disprove anything.

[Bill Ryan]

Nice post last50cobra - so much crap from Icke, Mutwa and Sitchin


Signing off from PA, Bright.

Credo Mutwa? Please say more. My finger is poised to unsubscribe you, as per your request.

[Lord Sidious]

Hi everyone,

Well, first I´d like to say that I´m not proud of some bad attitudes here towards last50cobra.

How about the 1th amendment that you (at least the North-Americans here) love to evoke all the time?

We must know that it is fundamental for any scientific discovery, to have people who agree and people who don´t agree with it. This is the only way to achieve an accurate result.

The so called debunkers are essential for science. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong, but it doesn´t matter after all. The dialogue raised by their questions is always important.

Secondly, I´d like to say that, when it comes to history, specially ancient History, It´s literally impossible to prove anything. It´s always about assumptions generated by selecting the most probable.

The only way to actually prove if ETs visited us in the past, who built the pyramids, if Jesus actually existed and these kind of things is to invent a time traveling machine and go back there, or to find real physical evidence, like a really advanced piece of ET technology. We´re not there yet.

Let´s praise the good debates. They are essential to this community.

Cheers,

Raf.

Have you ever heard of trolls?
Cointelpro?
Because some of us have and if you think this forum doesn't attract them, you are very much mistaken.
Every single post by our friend Mr Snakebreath, is a debunking post.
You tell me, is that REALLY helpful?

[jagman]

Hi everyone,

Well, first I´d like to say that I´m not proud of some bad attitudes here towards last50cobra.

How about the 1th amendment that you (at least the North-Americans here) love to evoke all the time?

We must know that it is fundamental for any scientific discovery, to have people who agree and people who don´t agree with it. This is the only way to achieve an accurate result.

The so called debunkers are essential for science. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong, but it doesn´t matter after all. The dialogue raised by their questions is always important.

Secondly, I´d like to say that, when it comes to history, specially ancient History, It´s literally impossible to prove anything. It´s always about assumptions generated by selecting the most probable.

The only way to actually prove if ETs visited us in the past, who built the pyramids, if Jesus actually existed and these kind of things is to invent a time traveling machine and go back there, or to find real physical evidence, like a really advanced piece of ET technology. We´re not there yet.

Let´s praise the good debates. They are essential to this community.

Cheers,

Raf.

Hello RMorgan
I agree with your point that debate is essential! But It is clear to me that the Op
did not want to debate the issues! He wanted to make a provocative statements
and then run and hide! Does the Op lack the courage of his convictions?
He has let a few of you defend his point of view, but not a single word from him
since his original post!
I found his post to be incredibly Arrogant and Snarky, But he is entitled to his Opinion! What I take umbrage with is his inability to defend his position!

[Bill Ryan]

The so called debunkers are essential for science. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong, but it doesn´t matter after all. The dialogue raised by their questions is always important.

Hi, Raf: the problem is in language. The very word ''debunk' is arrogant, is hostile and destructively intentioned, and refers to a polarized position which the aggressor tries to defend.

I do subscribe to Bernie Haisch's definition of a skeptic (and I am one): :)





Skeptic: One who practices the method of suspended judgment, engages in rational and dispassionate reasoning as exemplified by the scientific method, shows willingness to consider alternative explanations without prejudice based on prior beliefs, and who seeks out evidence and carefully scrutinizes its validity.




... the whole Sitchin movement ... This is a new mythology that unfortunately has grown feet and wings. This is not reality, just deception, confusion, delusion and for some - money. A new religion which is creating more harm than good, more division than unity.

There is a lot of truth in that statement. The problem is again with language -- you are angry (with quite some reason), but are not being responsible with your expression of it. You come over as being dismissive and disrespectful. This does not engender intelligent dialog -- which is a good thing.

Given the chance, you might find myself agreeing with you on a few issues -- but this conversation might never happen simply because I’m not convinced I’d enjoy talking with you very much if you rant in derogatory, dismissive terms about David Icke and Credo Mutwa.

I spent two weeks with David and Credo last year, and earlier in 2010 spent a week with David when he visited Switzerland. He's a man of great courage and integrity, as is Credo.

I never knew Sitchin, but some of his information is certainly incorrect (the Anunnaki are not riding around the solar system on some frozen planetoid patiently awaiting to return to Earth: they have their own high-tech transportation, and can and do return here any time they please).

[Cidersomerset]

Hi All at least this gave me a chance to watch the Claus Donna presentation again and there is plenty on there to make anyone with an open mind question the possiblity
there are older civilisations than we are told by mainstream....

I love watching Time team on channell 4 and Tony Robinson often says if you get four archeologists on a site you will end up with four different theories on the
function of whatever they are digging up lol... as with all science so there is no real mainstream concensus just opinions and theories untill the next discovery !!

Back to Claus those lydite tools and objects looked very convincing as with the smaller version of the Easter Island head, the collections he and others have amassed are intriguing.
Michael Cremo another who has spent years looking at 'forbidden archeology'....There is something TPTB desperately do not want us to find out imho...

This is just part of a bigger picture, with peoples recollections of past lives , intuition and 101 other insticts that tell me we are a lot older and were more advanced than we are
led to believe ....You can look at the Annunaki , or follow Billy Meiers origins of the human from his material all of which is a thread on there own....Infact there
are many threads on all these subjects on the forum already....So as Sid said to drop a post and run is not on.......

If as others you feel that there is not enough evidence to sway you that there was a ancient alien connection or earlier earth human civilisation that is fine, thats why I joined
the forum to learn & discuss/debate ideas with people of a like mind, and to change my view on a particular subject if new evidence backs it, although by the nature of what we discuss a lot of speculation is part of the mix......

This I have done recently on the Hitler thread, when I thought in all probability he died in the bunker....now it looks far more likely he got away, Which Stalin Thought all along !!....

Steve

[Providence]

The so called debunkers are essential for science. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong, but it doesn´t matter after all. The dialogue raised by their questions is always important.

Hi, Raf: the problem is in language. The very word ''debunk' is arrogant, is hostile and destructively intentioned, and refers to a polarized position which the aggressor tries to defend.


I totally agree with Bill, this topic was not intelligently offered up to the Avalon community as an open discussion. It was obviously intended as more of an attack (debunking), and as much as I respect the members of this forum and their willingness to open the door to new information, the language insured that it would draw out very harsh criticisms, and rightfully so.

[MMA_Fan]

Have you ever heard of trolls?
Cointelpro?
Because some of us have and if you think this forum doesn't attract them, you are very much mistaken.
Every single post by our friend Mr Snakebreath, is a debunking post.
You tell me, is that REALLY helpful?

Judging by Last50Cobra's other contributions, particularly the youtube video's by Chris White and the sleep paralysis question, the poster in question is a Christian who takes the bible literally. So troll - yes, cointel - no. (IMHO);)

As for the opening post itself, I disagree that ancient astronauts have been debunked. Like another poster said, for every article linked, there is another article with a good counter argument.
The Klaus Dona video was great - I would love to see more. Certainly doesn't prove a case for AA's to me but a lost civilisation(s) sure.

All 'out of place artefacts' I have seen are derived natural materials. If someone had an i-Pad from 12,000 bc it would change my mind :)

[ceetee9]

I try not to get involved in these "debunker" debates because it is futile. Most, if not all, of the debunkers whom I have read, at least, cherry pick the data that can easily be attributed to more conventional explanations and ignore the data that can't--or, worse, they insult our intelligence with unbelievably absurd explanations. I welcome opposing opinions on any subject when they are provided with integrity and a genuine attempt to arrive at the truth--as evidenced by the arguments provided. But when it becomes clear the intent is to merely debunk a subject, damn the facts, at all costs, I chuck it in the same garbage heap as those who have an equal, but opposing agenda, in support of the subject.

I, for one, am seeking truth and not those who will merely support my opinions and beliefs. And I believe that is the goal of the majority of Avalonians.

[Xenos]

All 'out of place artefacts' I have seen are derived natural materials. If someone had an i-Pad from 12,000 bc it would change my mind :)

A working i-pad ? The idea sound very sexy ! And highly possible... not with an i-pad, but on different support.

Part of the Plan to get and to know what we've been in all our History...

[bodhii71]

Interesting. Usually when a Internet troll rears their head from under bridge they artfully (depending on skill level and target audience) they use misdirection, personal attacks, are usually backed by one or more other minions to keep the ruse going, spiraling the conversation into a completely pointless, time wasting, endevour, leaving everyone vibrating at a lower frequency. I have witnessed this time and again.
Jung described a " night sea journey", and coming out from such a thing, where I believe many of us might be, (where we unsubscribe to what the staus quo believes) can leave one on shifting sands, and a bit raw, sensitive and unsure of anything.
I believe because of this, some people may knee jerk react to any contradiction to newly form realizations.
Some of my reasons for joining Avalon, was to get a feel for those who frequent this site, to expand my understanding, meet like minded individuals, friendly debates, but also to get a feel for Bill Ryan himself. As amiable, forward thinking, genuine, and honest as he appeared, I feared being misled by a crafty charlatan. The initial impression I percieved from Project Camelot were sincere, intelligent, truth seekers, but as careful I tried to be, part of me questioned my own discernment.
I don't think I erred in putting trust in Bill or Kerry...
Perhaps this may or may not be he place to post this; I leave it to you to decide.

After watching an interview where Richard Hoagland addressed the United Nations, I was somewhat taken aback by a comment where he made a New World Order comment. Not entirely sure what he insinuated, I private messaged him via Facebook, asking if he would mind clarifying the statement, something I'm not keen doing. It bothered me.
I made the request several times, with no response, so I posted the question directly to his wall, trying to articulate as well as possible that it wasn't an attack, but a honest question.
The attacks came fast and exact,( leaving me even more suspect of the intent, especially never receiving a direct answer that might have taken but a few moments of RH time). I deflected those with a juvenile whip of wit, but no matter, no forthcoming answer. What I never expected, were the private messages from people who suffered from similar experiences.
Now it's not my intent to defame anyone, only to articule an experience of being someone on the other end of the spectrum.
I would consider myself a skeptic, but one who tries to utilize all my faculties to discern truth. But a holistic outlook is paramount as well as proper information.
Which directs my diatribe back to Bill Ryan. There are many who depend on his reporting to be as honest and sincere as possible, so that they my assimilate the information, separating the wheat from chafe. I would very much enjoy an interview of Bills impressions of guests he has hosted, spending time with them off camera, knowing them on a more intimate level. Maybe not possible or professional, but of great interest.
BTW, thanks for your efforts Bill.

So welcome the trolls, for they have a purpose, if nothing else but to either reaffirm your understanding or to shake a belief that may be groundless.

Namaste
Matthew

[onawah]

Bodhi, you might want to connect with TruthseekerDan, who has a similar complaint about Hoagland. See his post #83 the thread at
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?33697-Hoaglands-take-on-YU55-Nov-9th-onwards...&p=345404#post345404

In view of the good work Hoagland has done in the past, it would seem possible someone or something has "got" to him from the dark side, or else perhaps he is in the beginning stages of dementia.
Either of which would be very sad.
I hope we get some input from Bill on Hoagland as well.

Namaste

[Arc]

Nice post last50cobra - so much crap from Icke, Mutwa and Sitchin


Signing off from PA, Bright.

Credo Mutwa? Please say more. My finger is poised to unsubscribe you, as per your request.

I stand with Bill on this strongly! .. and so with Credo and David Icke.

Bright Garlick, look I like some of your past posts, but you better rethink this one, about leaving PA, for Icke, Mutwa, Sitchin... Look, leave then -

I read your blog linked from other posts. I just can't follow you here with any real belief or feeling...
(please, folks go read the posts about pig sounding creatures)
http://otherworldyencounters.wordpress.com/ .

If you think we should all be waiting for a "squealing pig" noise-making, clamoring ET's, that are charging at us in a remote area? are you kidding???

Well... I want no part of that man! The Off-world contacts I would like to engage are humans, and whether in another frequency or not, are not here to scare folks, but rather teach and coach them.
(please ask James Gilliland about those dark souled pig-like beings he was with briefly!)

I can't understand, nor resonate with your alien encounters... not saying you did not experience it. I'm just saying, I think you may be want to be careful who you are connecting with...

And, so to not also debunk everyone else here with "Other" contacts. I'm sorry if I am not interested in your health situation, BG, (I sympathize) but I seek truth.
Your possible response will indicate your true purpose - I will volunteer to accept unpopular responses.

Bright Garlick, I'm not the most popular one here, but I am calling you out!

Tell us why we should listen to your point of view and abandon David Icke, Creto Mutwa, Bill Ryan, and other very credible folks.... tell us-

Go -

[HaveBlue]

Lloyd Pye and the 'starchild' skull is not only very symetrical, it has and continues to undergo DNA tests to find out where the father came from.
The lack of public funding and the whispers from the scientists that have quietly shown interest, is indicative of the 'religion' of alot of mainstream science.

Real science is examination of all the evidence using the scientific method. The method used by over 1500 engineers and architects that say the US. Govts explanation of 911 is not just difficult to believe but 'impossible'.

Ancient Aliens is an excellent series very fitting for our time now, where more and more of us are doubting the long held beliefs of established universities (churches)
While I do not agree with everything put to us during the 3 seasons so far, it is still well worth a look.

[Bright Garlick]

Nice post last50cobra - so much crap from Icke, Mutwa and Sitchin


Signing off from PA, Bright.

Credo Mutwa? Please say more. My finger is poised to unsubscribe you, as per your request.

I stand with Bill on this strongly! .. and so with Credo and David Icke.

Bright Garlick, look I like some of your past posts, but you better rethink this one, about leaving PA, for Icke, Mutwa, Sitchin... Look, leave then -

I read your blog linked from other posts. I just can't follow you here with any real belief or feeling...
(please, folks go read the posts about pig sounding creatures)
http://otherworldyencounters.wordpress.com/ .

If you think we should all be waiting for a "squealing pig" noise-making, clamoring ET's, that are charging at us in a remote area? are you kidding???

Well... I want no part of that man! The Off-world contacts I would like to engage are humans, and whether in another frequency or not, are not here to scare folks, but rather teach and coach them.
(please ask James Gilliland about those dark souled pig-like beings he was with briefly!)

I can't understand, nor resonate with your alien encounters... not saying you did not experience it. I'm just saying, I think you may be want to be careful who you are connecting with...

And, so to not also debunk everyone else here with "Other" contacts. I'm sorry if I am not interested in your health situation, BG, (I sympathize) but I seek truth.
Your possible response will indicate your true purpose - I will volunteer to accept unpopular responses.

Bright Garlick, I'm not the most popular one here, but I am calling you out!

Tell us why we should listen to your point of view and abandon David Icke, Creto Mutwa, Bill Ryan, and other very credible folks.... tell us-

Go -

Hello my friend. Thanks for reading that post. Unfortunately you have read it out of context. I have had many alien encounters. This is one being that has follwoed me for 10 years and has never shown an ill intention. All other encounters have been entirely benevolent.

You should not listen to my POV, nor do I have any desire to get caught in the elastic pull of diatribe. I'm just tired of this 'malevolent alien' bull **** when I have met the real thing and know very well some one who worked with them on behalf of the British Government. The story's built by these myths make me sick. Bill has a good point about anger. Yeah I'm angry and pissed off and no longer care for any of this. I came back to PA to offer to take people's questions to real aliens I will encounter again this week. That has taken a lot of effort on my part.

I really would be quite happy to be kicked off PA. Many of you bought into Charles and some of you continue to buy into another powerful myth.

No doubt any comments by me here will elicit some kind of negative reaction. You are all my brothers and sisters. I mean no ill will but sometimes I feel great anger at the mass ignorance at the world. That is the recipe for me to cultivate compassion. I seek nothing from any human but I am happy to give all I can.

Bill please unsubscribe me and remove all my posts.

Thank you PA. May you all be well in 2011.

Bright.:fish:

[Lord Sidious]

Removing your posts is actually a form of forum sabotage.
If we are your brothers and sisters, why would you do that?
I bear you no ill will, I don't even know you, but I don't agree with that request.

[Cidersomerset]

Hi All on a personal note, as a boy attending a Catholic school briefly, I was exposed to religious dogma early on and this has continued ever since as I'm interrested in history.
I found 30/40 years ago that the theory Jesus was a astronaught and gods were extraterrestial beings had some truth to it for me, maybe influenced by watching Sar Trek as a boy and still enjoying Sci-fi.Everything is linked by our cultural and spiritual experiances whether in dreams/visions or direct contact with alians/ interdimensionals or some other form of contact.

The anciant alien theory for me seems only logical and very plausible. I dismiss the churches view we are 6,000 years old thats silly imho . Although if that reasonates with you
thats fine, we are all gods/human creators experiancing a journey and we are greater than the sum of the flesh and blood suite we wear for this experiance.
We incarnate all over the universe and thats where manipulation may occur when other galactic cultures may have manipulated our suits for benevolent or manevolent
purposes and brought our non =physical to incarnate on earth out of cinque so to speak, again this is only theory based on what I've read and feel.

I don't know what the truth is anymore than most of the people here, I'm continueing my search and education with like minded people.I evaluate what I learn
as I go along, and even if I dismiss something I store it in the library of my brain for reference. As a physical species we seem to have been manipulated for eons and
still are , only by seeing thru all this BS of the manipulated corporate world run by possible maneovlent blood lines, will we be able to get to our true purpose of
physical incarnation as part of experiancing the fabric of the universe as we are all 'Star Beings'......Cheers Steve

[Agape]

It's always good to incorporate knowledge, both and all sides of the coin ( each has 2 at least of equally important value ) , get familiar with related factography then call yourself an expert on one or another theory and decide what views can be discarded ..

For the opening post ...it's kind of well known fact that some ancient cultures practised skull binding in infants . Yes they did it .
The question is WHY, who or what was the reason . Tracing trans-cultural logic of ancient cultures in long profile suggests ..
that there had been two ( and more ) human ( or even non human ) civilisation archetypes meeting together , each on different level of morphological and cultural advancement in our history .
The tree of genome mutations , still being explored and discovered , suggests that there had been many such trans-cultural meetings, crossroads and melting point of humanoids with different biological signature .

The form that was the best adaptable to earthly environment won, in each case over the less adaptable features and forms of intelligence.

Biological signature survived while over millions of years ..even the smartest of smart phones happened to lose its character and run out of batteries.


Back to those elongated skulls ...

there is not enough research to prove or disprove if all of them are 'manmade' . And even if there's no immediate exemplary and proof at hand of 'natural one',
the probability that one ..or rather whole group of them existed belonging to certain race of people, call them human or non human ,
if you look at it without bias , the probability is high .


About 'Ancient Astronaut' theory ...most of the information circling around at the moment is insufficient, it's guesses and some of it can be even misguiding .

Yet ...it is encrypted to our biological, psychological and cultural heritage, not as a theory but as a memory and we are here precisely because some of us have the clues .

Searching for a proof outside of us may be futile as long as we can't recognize the clues in our 'selves' .

As in 'Know Thyself' and all shall be revealed.

It's like in the story of man trying to count a group of ten people forgetting himself so he sees only 9 .



Thanks

:yo: