Poll - Can any being create something that God/Source does not already possess?

[The Mad spirtualist]

Can any being in known creation create something that God/Source does not already possess? Please vote and give reason for your answer.

[Sierra]

Hi Mad!

Can you please define your term, "possess" first?

Thanks, Sierra :wave:

[Xenos]

Can any being in known creation create something that God/Source does not already possess? Please vote and give reason for your answer.

Interesting :)

In vote "no", because a creation cannot exist outside his Creator... if it try... he will die or disappear in other words.

[TraineeHuman]

An example of such a "something" might be war, or a warlike nature.

[jorr lundstrom]

Are you kidding?????

[Lord Sidious]

Yes, they can.
Dolly the sheep is my reason.

[christian]

Everything is latent potential before it becomes manifest. All latent potential comes from the Source, hence, it's not possible to create something not already created by the Source.

If one would argue, that the source just delivered potential and no manifest stuff whatsoever, then everything is not created by the Source, but by infinite potential/consciousness, which we are, acting upon itself.

[Mad Hatter]

Yes...

Assumption being the mother of all f#%k ups... who is to say there is not more than one source field...

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

The other day I watched a discussion here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?33362-Carl-Sagan-Stephen-Hawking-and-Arthur-C.-Clarke-God-The-Universe-and-Everything) and would like to repeat what Stephen Hawkin said:-


"Your question of whether God is bound by the laws of science is a bit like the question... Can God make a stone that is so heavy that he can not lift it?"

When I heard that, it sure did boggle the mind. :becky:

Can we ever really know for sure? As an absolute?
If some of the greatest minds are still questioning, then there is no absolute answer up until this date.
All we can do is assume with our own inner "knowing".

But to answer your question, Mad spiritualist, I assume God/Source (or whatever other you would call it), doesn´t possess, it just is.

[wolf_rt]

Yes, Humans can create things that are new to 'God'... I believe this is our purpose. The meaning of life, if you will.

We are how 'God' experiences new things, The 'Source' can run any 'Simulation' it has data for, to answer a question. I believe it is up to us to provide that data.

Remember we are part of the Source too... when we create, God creates... :-)

The source isn't something external... Nor is 'Nature', we have to be careful to remember this.

[Tony]

What an interesting thread!

What if God creates nothing?
God being pure, empty.
Then no-thing can be beyond emptiness.
However, anything can arise in Emptiness.

So, what creates?
Deluded consciousness!
There is no end to deluded consciousness.
There is no end to Emptiness.

The result = we muck around in emptiness!

God does not exist.
The very nature of God does...
...radiant Emptiness!

[The Mad spirtualist]

Possess meaning ability, thought, or anything that could possibly be. Must it come from source first or can it come from creation or.....

[Zillah]

There is nothing outside of Source and nothing outside of Us - no beginning and no end - and if you can see everything existing simultaneously and infinitely at all times - there is no chicken or egg.

I feel that all things already do exist in <here> and <out there>, but what creates the illusion of "new forms of creation" is creative expression, which would be unique to itself. Like, if we all were told to pick 10 objects out of 100 out of a hat (source) - and told to combine these objects in a certain way to define ourselves, we'd surely come up with very unique forms of expression - but still, it all came from that hat (source). But there is a paradox too - is there anything truly unique? Or is it that there are soooo many possibilities and probabilities (infinite) that we feel that there are "new" and "original" forms of creation, when really we are just expressing one of the infinite forms that already exists, and with our finite minds, feel its new to this world/universe/etc?

[The Mad spirtualist]

Reason for my question is to prove that everyone individually has complete and total responsibility for everything that they experience cause NOTHING happens outside of them. People want to believe the the evil in the world is not their fault but I'm sorry it is YOUR fault! It is my fault. Even better there is no fault only experiences that are negative and positive. You choose everything that you experience! Even if you are not aware of it. YOU ARE GOD. You are the Source there is NOTHING outside you!

If you believe in a creator then you must believe he created ALL things, the negative and the positive. God is love but he is also hate! We are God. Thus what we create we have total responsibility for it. If there is a creator then he/she must take total responsibility for it's creation!

Many say God is pure he can do no wrong and he did not create evil. I say that is impossible! The mirror does not lie! If we are the image of God then we can ONLY reflect back what God projects out! We also experience exactly what we project outward. There is no exception!

[The Mad spirtualist]

Existence is! The only thing you can absolutely be sure of is that you exist! Anything beyond that is belief.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


There is nothing outside of Source and nothing outside of Us - no beginning and no end - and if you can see everything existing simultaneously and infinitely at all times - there is no chicken or egg.

I feel that all things already do exist in <here> and <out there>, but what creates the illusion of "new forms of creation" is creative expression, which would be unique to itself. Like, if we all were told to pick 10 objects out of 100 out of a hat (source) - and told to combine these objects in a certain way to define ourselves, we'd surely come up with very unique forms of expression - but still, it all came from that hat (source). But there is a paradox too - is there anything truly unique? Or is it that there are soooo many possibilities and probabilities (infinite) that we feel that there are "new" and "original" forms of creation, when really we are just expressing one of the infinite forms that already exists, and with our finite minds, feel its new to this world/universe/etc?

If nothing is new then the word create has no meaning.

[1159]

Can my hands create something that my mind has not already created?

[TraineeHuman]

It all depends on what you understand Source to be. I would say "understand", not "believe". My definition of Source is that any action of the multiverse where the entire multiverse acts as one, in total unity and harmony, is an action of Source.

Another way to tell what is Source and what isn't is that all the qualities of Source are their own opposite -- or, if you like to put it that way, they have no opposite. For instance, all the actions of Source are good. But they are necessarily good, because they are actions of everything there is, acting as one. The reason why they are necessarily good is that Source includes everything there is, even all "emptiness". Because there’s absolutely nothing else than the multiverse, there’s literally nothing that you could produce that’s in opposition. (There is only relative opposition, not true opposition.)

I claim it’s obvious that whenever the multiverse acts in such a way, that is an act of pure freedom.

Why? Because there’s literally nothing and nobody outside the multiverse to question or repress or restrict that action. Therefore, it’s a totally free action. And at least to whatever extent we can find the true God (or the multiverse) within ourselves and act from there, we also can act in pure freedom. And we (at least some of us) sometimes certainly do. Now that's creativity. That’s what true spirituality is all about.

Yes, it's also ultimately true that there's nothing but Source. However, we are all currently living mostly in illusion and playing the game that we haven't fully realised yet that it's an illusion.

It's also very unfortunate that the word "Source" is a noun. Source certainly isn't a thing or an object or a what. Languages from Lemuria, such as most Polynesian languages and Tibetan and Eskimo and many Red Indian languages, don't have any nouns in them. Instead they use verbs, which are at least an improvement in the right direction.

[DevilPigeon]

-----

I've been interested in the "ego" very recently, and am contemplating this currently... Books such as "the power of now" (which I'm a quarter way through), "freedom from the known" (which to this day is probably the most profound book I've ever read, an absolute classic) plus films such as "fight club" & "revolver" (revolver is probably my favourite film, it didn't receive the attention it deserves in my eyes...). All of these I take snippets from, hopefully to get to a consensus view on the subject.

Based on the above, I'm contemplating that "the devil" may indeed be something that was not created by "god". My sense is that "the devil" exists in each of us, created by ourselves, tricking us into believing "he's us"... How did "he" get created? My thought is through the trauma of birth, the trauma being so great that the "mind" splinters, the "ego" of which assumes automatic control.

[Tony]

Pure essence.....is!
Along came 'ignorance' and turned "is" into God.

So because a 'GOD" was created, guilt appeared.
Once you can make someone feel guilty, you can
control them....simple!

Why are God people so aggressive?
It is part of the control mechanism!

Last night I watched Derren Brown
convince someone that they had committed a murdered.

How did he do this?
By first making the man feel guilt!

Come on people, wake up!

[jimbojp]

Aren't we all just going round and round in circles with all this?
Isn't there something else to do.
:p

[Tony]

Ok, now you have woken up,
love like you have never loved
before....unconditionally!

Don't go back to sleep!

¤=[Post Update]=¤

When we are asleep,
we are in our own
created universe.

Wake up and you are,
free!.....'is'

[Eagle]

Pure essence.....is!
Along came 'ignorance' and turned "is" into God.

So because a 'GOD" was created, guilt appeared.
Once you can make someone feel guilty, you can
control them....simple!

Why are God people so aggressive?
It is part of the control mechanism!

Last night I watched Derren Brown
convince someone that they had committed a murdered.

How did he do this?
By first making the man feel guilt!

Come on people, wake up!
A higher Source, Intelligence either outside of us or in us is very real, how and if I receive that communication is the important part of it. Good and Evil could have very well been created as a way to control, but it also has allowed us to question everything and think outside of the Religious jail.

[Tony]

Hello Dig,
We have free will, nobody can take that away.
But that is only if one is conscious of consciousness.

Most people do not know that they have free will.
They are merely re-acting, and so can be controlled.

It does not matter if one is in a religion or not,
everyone has their beliefs.

Therefore everyone has something to defend,
therefore they get aggressive.

We have to break out of the our created jail.
It is easy to find fault with others,
It is more difficult to find fault,
in oneself.

(Don't mind me, I'm still sad at Roman going...laughter!!!)

[panopticon]

Reason for my question is to prove that everyone individually has complete and total responsibility for everything that they experience cause NOTHING happens outside of them. People want to believe the the evil in the world is not their fault but I'm sorry it is YOUR fault! It is my fault. Even better there is no fault only experiences that are negative and positive. You choose everything that you experience! Even if you are not aware of it. YOU ARE GOD. You are the Source there is NOTHING outside you!

If you believe in a creator then you must believe he created ALL things, the negative and the positive. God is love but he is also hate! We are God. Thus what we create we have total responsibility for it. If there is a creator then he/she must take total responsibility for it's creation!

Many say God is pure he can do no wrong and he did not create evil. I say that is impossible! The mirror does not lie! If we are the image of God then we can ONLY reflect back what God projects out! We also experience exactly what we project outward. There is no exception!

G'day The Mad spiritualist,

I would say "both" as an answer.
Your above statement seems based on a belief in an intelligent creator yet your question was not so constructed.
I don't have that dogmatic belief so am not flustered by saying "both".
I also do not see myself as a (or the) "God".

I agree with the intent of what you're saying in the below quote, though question the value judgement you seem to place on "negative and positive":

there is no fault only experiences that are negative and positive.

By way of example here's one of my favourite Daoist tales (paraphrased from an Alan Watts audio):


A farmers horse ran away one night and joined the wild horses.
His neighbours gathered and said "what bad luck".
The farmer said "maybe".

The next night the horse returned and was accompanied by some of the wild horses.
His neighbours gathered and said "what good fortune".
The farmer said "maybe".

The farmers son tried to "break in" one of the wild horses, was thrown and the son broke his leg.
His neighbours came to commiserate with the farmer and said "what bad luck".
The farmer said "maybe".

The next day the army conscription officers came to take the young able bodied men and the farmers son was rejected because of his broken leg!
His neighbours gathered and said "what amazingly good fortune".
The farmer just said "maybe".

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[The Mad spirtualist]

"Your above statement seems based on a belief in an intelligent creator yet your question was not so constructed."

First I don't have ANY particular belief in a Creator/God/Source. The question was constructed as IF you or I believed in a Creator. Because if you believe traditionally in a Creator then the usual belief is that that Creator created ALL things YET people will say that the so called creator they believe in is not responsible for ALL things but only the good which to me is complete BS! Yet they will agree with the law of attraction which states that YOU are responsible for everything you create! That whatever your thoughts and beliefs are that is what you will experience outwardly. You can't have it both ways! If the law of attraction is a absolute law of the Universe then it applies to ALL even Source/God/Creator.

[lightning23]

:closed::closed:

[Zillah]

Aren't we all just going round and round in circles with all this?
Isn't there something else to do.
:p

But haven't you ever played with Spirograph?!?!! Circles are the building blocks of the universe - not to mention, oodles of fun!! ;)
xoxox


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbvmKzf_wr4

[58andfixed]

The First Source knows the end before we began, for The First Source always was.

The First Source desires that we do good to all else in The Universe, with no constraint, no intervention and with Free Will.

Good exists because some choose good. Evil exists because some choose to NOT do good, and are selfish.

Evil was not 'designed' in The Universe as some balancing force, but permitted because error comes out of ignorance.

What we 'create,' is simply manifesting what we become aware of, and that potential was already known.

So no, we don't create something that hasn't already been known as a potential.

We simply get to learn the consequences of our choices, and the consequences of permitting & allowing others to make choices that are not good, in ignorance of choices that would be better for them and everyone else.

The simple answer is, the evolutionary process of civilization is more about us and for us.

We could get to a civilization of "Light & Life" faster or slower, and the choice is up to us. The answer is already known in the stars, simply for us to discover.

The First Source simply desires more company, and to discover Her Way, through the potential of making errors.

- 58

[Anchor]

The option I need is not there :)

The question is unanswerable as written, the reason for this is that it relies on the notions of past and future, also it seems to deal in finite terms.

I'd like to ask The Mad Spirtualist what is the REAL question.

[panopticon]

"Your above statement seems based on a belief in an intelligent creator yet your question was not so constructed."

First I don't have ANY particular belief in a Creator/God/Source. The question was constructed as IF you or I believed in a Creator. Because if you believe traditionally in a Creator then the usual belief is that that Creator created ALL things YET people will say that the so called creator they believe in is not responsible for ALL things but only the good which to me is complete BS! Yet they will agree with the law of attraction which states that YOU are responsible for everything you create! That whatever your thoughts and beliefs are that is what you will experience outwardly. You can't have it both ways! If the law of attraction is a absolute law of the Universe then it applies to ALL even Source/God/Creator.

G'day The Mad spiritualist,

I am somewhat confused now.

'First I don't have ANY particular belief in a Creator/God/Source. The question was constructed as IF you or I believed in a Creator. Because if you believe traditionally in a Creator then the usual belief is that that Creator created ALL things YET people will say that the so called creator they believe in is not responsible for ALL things but only the good which to me is complete BS! '
-- Ok, if I understand you the question was not based on your understandings, but rather on how you perceive others do and that their understanding is flawed.
I appreciate your perspective and candour.

'YOU are responsible for everything you create'.
-- Well, yes I am. I thought that was self evident.

'That whatever your thoughts and beliefs are that is what you will experience outwardly.'
-- Okay I understand that many here believe in a "Law of Attraction", I view it more as a "Law of Distraction" but moving on...

'If the law of attraction is an absolute law of the Universe then it applies to ALL even Source/God/Creator.'
-- I don't believe that the "Law of Distraction" is an absolute law so does that mean it doesn't apply?
-- If someone believes there is a creator being, or personified deity, who "created all" does this not imply that their creator is beyond time and petty "Laws of"?

I think I understand what you are saying but it seems based on a need for identifying something called "good" and something called "evil", which in turn is based on value/belief systems created either by social consensus (norms) and/or by the control mechanisms of religious dogma. This isn't a flaw in your argument, in my opinion, rather an example of how groups construct methods of control and self regulation for continued co-existence.

As Anchor rightly points out, if I am interpreting correctly, the question is framed to ignore "time" and the obvious dilemma that if a creator exists then s/he would, by definition, be outside of temporal and spatial boundaries.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Fundy Gemini]

I simply don't know - because - in my vision we actually CAN create any number of new realities, but the building blocks are all supplied by 'The One' --- My analogy would be that we can all create something unique with our Lego set - but in the end, the Lego's come from God who delights in the many things we can do with them ;)

Fun question - Thanks!

[jimbojp]

Aren't we all just going round and round in circles with all this?
Isn't there something else to do.
:p

But haven't you ever played with Spirograph?!?!! Circles are the building blocks of the universe - not to mention, oodles of fun!! ;)
xoxox



NKEItegftb8

;).

[The Mad spirtualist]

This is what I'm talking about! See you in paradise!

http://www.idreamcatcher.com/lester-levenson/

[58andfixed]

Nice !

Miracles are a potential.

Science calls it the "placebo effect."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=placebo-effect-a-cure-in-the-mind

- 58



This is what I'm talking about! See you in paradise!

http://www.idreamcatcher.com/lester-levenson/

[shadowstalker]

If we are already part of the creator then all things thought as and will be created has already been done,(hence all things in the NOW) we just haven't realized it in this confined box of knowledge that we as spiritual beings on this planet have seen or encountered.
The question it self has already been asked on so many different levels but we are blind to see or notice it.

[TraineeHuman]

Shadowstalker,

I don't agree with what you say, because many (in fact, nearly all) things that Source creates are indefinite, or undetermined or ambiguous. Think of a variable in math, for instance. That's the kind of stuff that the multiverse is made out of. Indeed, quantum physics tells us that that's the kind of stuff even the physical universe is made of -- not to mention randomness, chaos theory, and fractals, all of which tell us this in different ways.

Also, within Source there is no such thing as a distinction between subject and object. Therefore, Source doesn't act like some Headmaster-in-the-sky, or like an individual being of any kind at all. So "creates" isn't a very accurate verb to use when you're talking about Source. Source is more like deep silence, perhaps, which is somehow not nothing but is in everything.