Seeking a thread in Legal style on Proof from evidence of Alien Existence

[Unified Serenity]

EDIT NOTE: Several have said I should change the title of the thread because some are not clear on the style of thread I am looking for, so I have changed the thread title from "Proof as required of Alien encounters" to "Seeking a thread in Legal style on Proof from evidence of Alien Existence". This is not a common discussion thread like most are used to. GCS has already taken up the cause and is a lawyer. I am looking forward to what she puts together as proof, and she may need some help gathering data, so if you already have data compiled just pm her and see what happens. I am not saying she needs any help, but who knows. This is not to say GCS is the only one who can take up this task. Lawyers are trained in how to present a case based on evidence as they see it, and I would like to see a case as it were presented to us the reader aka jury to read and ponder, discuss etc after the case is presented. So, if you are a data gathering type on the UFO subject, and don't want to actually put together the case so to speak but someone else wants to work on the case and is not the holder of the "proof or evidence" then maybe this is a chance at collaboration. I am working on different things. I want to say that I am not a UFO doubter, I just have never seen the information presented in such a way and believe it would be a good read. I wish I had posted this first before all the bantering got started. I hope we can make something positive out of this and that when GCS is ready that she makes a new thread for all to enjoy.

Original post:

Roman's "I'm back" thread just spurred this thought in my mind, and I would like to hear from those familiar with the legal system and it's requirement of the burden of proof when presenting one's case.

Roman pointed out how threads go off message when people start questioning why someone asked a question and start demanding proof of an experience or basis of thoughts. I agree with Roman that an answer is an answer and if it helps the OP that's great. If it doesn't then they can ask more questions if they so choose.

In regards to the discussion of 'Do aliens exist" I would like someone who is either a lawyer or understands how to present a case for a court of law to take the "Proof" side that we have been visited in a myriad of ways by aliens. That this Proof thread would lay out a clear case beyond a reasonable doubt based on said evidence.

I am sure there will be an opposing side who will try to bring into question said evidence and that's ok. We, the jury of peers can look at the clear cut evidence and arguments and decide if it meets the necessary "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold.

[Sidney]

What would a lawyer say if you wanted proof of God. Where is the proof. Majority of the population doesn't need proof, yet God dictates what they do every Sunday morning of their life. When it comes to proof, its a very sticky and controversial subject for sure.

[Unified Serenity]

I appreciate that nuance starchild, but this is not a thread about the proof of the existence of God. It's a thread about the existence of Aliens and their visiting us on earth. I can point to historical images and depictions such as those in Sumeria, great paintings, and even the book of Ezekiel gasp! So, I would like to stay on topic and not pick it apart with regards to religion.

Thanks

[STATIC]

I personally think the proof card is a total Kop out. The proof of ET contact is vast.
If you took a skeptic demanding proof of ET's and teleported him to a planet with green people on it he'd come back and still not admit defeat.
This is the nature of a "total" skeptic. It is kind of like a religious conviction. I also would say that this type of behavior is born out of the materialistic paradigm that we find ourselves in.
I can't see it therefore it does not exist FULL STOP.

[mojo]

Wouldn't it be cool if the courts did take the case? We hold the trial against the powers that be in a place like Ecuador, a country promoting open disclosure. There is already enough evidence to support contact we just need a court system that can stand against them.

[Operator]

I've shortly worked behind the scenes and was granted a peek behind the curtain. It was long enough to
see that the legal system in reality is in fact as illegal and corrupt as hell as can be.

It's only there to separate 2 groups: those above the law and those that are made to abide the law.

Why use such a system and their rules to prove anything ?
Those above the law already know for a very long time how things are done. The system will be twisted
and bend to keep those to comply with the law totally in the dark.

We need other 'weapons' and tactics to win this battle.

[Xenos]

In a subtle subject it is always a matter of spirit... people will always deny... other not.

Taken in my apartment "by chance" trying my camera with night shot...


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=11035&d=1320233385

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=11034&d=1320233382

In every disk we have being also... don't you think ?

[Leon]

The proof we have been show to date, is meteorites with living organisms... this is proof of alien life in space... nasa finding 20 or was it 60 earth like planets recently... do you need more?

[Tony]

Are we not all aliens?
We have just forgotten.
Can anyone here claim,
to have been here for
A few billion years?

Can you remember what
socks you wore last Tuesday?

No! So how do you know you are
not an alien?

Have you seen the shape of my toes?!

[Unified Serenity]

OMG, this is why I tend to hate lawyers, well talking with them. I tell my children who all think they are lawyers in training as they start to parse words with me to not play legalistic games with me! Then I send them outside to dig holes for a half hour all while saying, "I am not a lawyer"! First of all, I don't give a flying PH*** if you think there is merit to presenting a case. How's that for direct communication? I asked to have a lawyer or someone familiar with the aspects of presenting a legal case to do so as advocating the PROOF of alien contact here on earth. I did not ask for a discussion on the validity of the legal system, or the likelihood of anyone believing the proof given. I asked for someone WITH understanding how a case is put together and present said proof to US the jury to ponder and then I guess in the jury room we can have our circle jerks of whether or not it is valid and proven beyond a reasonable doubt and cast our freaking vote.

THIS IS WHY ROMAN stated he left this freaking forum. Too many people judging the validity of why a post is made. If you do not want to be the lawyer to do the work to present a case, then until the case is presented if ever, stay off my post.

[onawah]

Interesting open letter to Obama following re proof of ET existence (though I question the wisdom of including channeled info in such a letter):

An Open Letter to President Barack Obama in Reply to Your Disclosure Petition Response

President Barack Obama
White House, Washington, D.C.

Dear Mr. President,

It’s with a sense of disappointment that I reply to your response to our petition asking you to disclose the presence of extraterrestrials on and around our planet. (1) I reply as one of the organizations (The 2012 Scenario) that promoted this petition even though I, as a Canadian, did not sign it.

I state from the outset that I am friendly to your presidency and have been your supporter since the beginning of your campaign and remain so, as a cursory examination of my Internet site will show. (2) I urge you to hear these comments therefore as coming from a friendly source, and not from someone who wishes you ill.

I’m aware of the situation you face as President. For instance, I’m aware of the tsunami of partisan and unjustified criticism that your opponents have leveled against you since the day of your election, criticism that has unjustifiably lost you a great number of friends.

As one example of it, while you established to my satisfaction your own birth in the United States, your opponent in the last election, John McCain, was born in Panama and a previous President, George H.W. Bush, appears most likely to have been born in Germany. But nothing is made of these facts and allegations although they’ve been repeatedly made publicly. This is just one indication from many that the flood of propaganda against you is simply designed to cripple your Presidency. (3)

I’m also aware of the threat of assassination from such quarters as the CIA “black operations” unit or certain units of the U.S. Armed forces that has hung over those who publicly acknowledged the ET/UFO presence. (4)

I’d remind you that we in the Disclosure community who press for acknowledgement of the friendly ET presence have in the past willingly faced that threat of assassination as well as the risk of government harassment and loss of employability. But we continue to speak out because we know that disclosing the presence of peaceful extraterrestrial civilizations is of such importance to humanity that the risk to us is acceptable. We look to you to show the same courage and willingness to bear risk.

I’d remind you as well that your government routinely asks the men and women of America to face death in Iraq, Afghanistan and other theaters of war. The failure of members of your Administration to face that risk as well would seem to me to be a contradiction.

To say that I understand the reasons for your lack of transparency is not to say that I support them. I’m saddened that an opportunity such as this has been missed to reveal to the world that friendly extraterrestrials exist and are visiting the Earth for peaceful reasons at the present time. I’m especially saddened because you yourself initiated the device of petitions to the White House and yet your response seems to belie a lack of serious intent in addressing the issues therein raised.

I’m disappointed because we believe, on reasonable grounds, that Presidents like Dwight D. Eisenhower met with extraterrestrials (5) and that the Government of the United States has made treaties with them as well. (6)

I’m disappointed because the evidence of a UFO cover-up has been presented so broadly that I’d think it impossible for the United States Government to prolong its policy of denial and cover-up without losing all public credibility. (7) I think it not far-fetched to assert that an entire generation knows the details of your cover-up. Those of us who know the truth will no longer be silent or support your silence.

I’m disappointed as well because we’re reasonably convinced that the United States operates a secret space fleet called “Solar Warden,” (8) routinely flies spacecraft to Mars and back (the TR3-B Aurora), (9) has bases on Mars and the Moon as well, and regularly meets with extraterrestrials there. We know as well the existence of jump rooms to Mars, (10) of teleportation devices to terrestrial bases, (11) and of time travel. (12)

I’m disappointed also because it’s a matter of public knowledge that your armed forces and contractors have back-engineered materials like Kevlar and Teflon and devices like the silicon chip, laser, fiber-optics, anti-gravity technology, and stealth technology from downed spacecraft such as that which crashed at Roswell. (13)

The response of your science adviser to our petition seems to reflect a desire by your administration to continue the deception of the public. We’d like to point out that the response of the public generally, through mass demonstrations like the Occupy Together movement, signals a rejection of such a policy of opaqueness and deception. We’d also like to remind you that you yourself rejected such a policy upon running for and assuming your office.

Let me review some of the evidence that reveals the truth of the situation, the extent of public knowledge of the ET/UFO presence, and the friendly actions of the ETs to encourage us to disclose without forcing the situation.

Increasing numbers of former government employees are breaking the enforced policy of silence on the matter of ETs and UFOs. The Disclosure Project and the Hastings Panel (14) are comprised of military officers, former government personnel, and contractors who know that UFOs exist and who, sometimes at the risk of their careers and sometimes at the risk of their lives, come forward to confront the Government’s policy of denial.

Routinely, hundreds of videos of UFOs appear on YouTube. So as not to frighten us, the peace-loving extraterrestrials, most of whom are human in appearance and are in fact our forebears, usually maintain a respectful distance from us.

But they’ve appeared in fleets, distantly seen, above such cities as New York, London, Seoul, Mexico City, Lima, and elsewhere. (15) They’ve appeared in dramatic circumstances such as the sighting above the Dome on the Rock. (16) They’ve appeared around catastrophes like the Japanese earthquake and tsunami, the Icelandic volcanic eruption, etc. There are even photographs circulating of them appearing at your political rallies. (See the photo at the top of this story.)

Routinely as well, representatives of galactic civilizations issue messages to terrestrials and have been doing so since a British TV station was interrupted on Nov. 26, 1977 to carry a message from the Galactic Federation. (17)

While SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) trains its linked arrays of radiotelescopes on outer space listening for clicks and beeps, the rest of us regularly read extraterrestrial messages from representatives of the Galactic Federation, which is currently around the planet in millions of cloaked space vehicles. (18) They won’t interfere with us until invited. Unlike us they respect the universal laws, including the Law of Freewill. (That having been said, they are here on a mission and will decloak at some point if no response is forthcoming from us.)

To us, it seems more than anachronistic that all contemporary scientists deny the existence of intergalactic life and claim to have no knowledge of its nature. We’d be happy to enlighten them on those matters if they’d ask us. Our knowledge of galactic culture and technology is growing by leaps and bounds which all will enjoy once the ET presence is disclosed and their ships can land among us. There is nothing to fear from their presence and much to be gained by everyone on Earth.

That the extraterrestrial fleet here to assist us at this time is friendly has been shown by their actions: they’ve prevented nuclear bombs from being exploded on this planet; they’ve prevented wars from breaking out such as American and Israeli attempts to start a war with Iran; they’ve neutralized the toxic components of nuclear bombs, depleted-uranium weapons, chemtrails, and pandemics (manufactured at Fort Detrick); they’ve prevented numerous wars and false-flag operations from being perpetrated; they’ve moderated the impact of storms, hurricanes, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions which have been deliberately triggered by rogue military elements who themselves received the weather-warfare technology from equally-rogue extraterrestrial civilizations.

These rogue civilizations such as the little Greys and others have been responsible for the many abductions of the past fifty years, which could only have come about because of treaties with primarily the American government which allowed the acts to occur in return for ET technology. The benign fleet that surrounds the Earth at the present time has delivered this planet from the little Greys, who can no longer approach the Earth.

Had the Galactic Federation wished to do us harm, they could have done so at any time in the past several decades during which they’ve protected this planet against others who meant us harm, including many in our own governments.

You can see then that an entire generation is growing up that’s well aware of the UFO cover-up and gaining knowledge every day of all aspects of space civilizations and cultures. It’s impossible for you to pretend that extraterrestrials don’t exist and foolhardy of your government to try.

Your Administration missed this opportunity to abandon the cover-up by responding in an intelligent and wise manner to our petition. But we won’t let up in our attempts to convince you – that is, before the extraterrestrials themselves disclose their presence. Our position is simple: honesty is the best policy and the population at large no longer can be deceived in the same way it has up until now without the Government experiencing the consequences.

Sincerely yours,

Steve Beckow
Editor
The 2012 Scenario

http://stevebeckow.com
Footnotes

(1) Our petition can be found at http://wh.gov/gKC . Your response can be found there as well, entitled “Searching for ET, But No Evidence Yet” by “Phil Larson who works on space policy and communications at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy,” dated Nov. 4, 2011. It says in part:

“The U.S. government has no evidence that any life exists outside our planet, or that an extraterrestrial presence has contacted or engaged any member of the human race. In addition, there is no credible information to suggest that any evidence is being hidden from the public’s eye.”

(2) “This Site is Pro-Obama” at http://stevebeckow.com/this-site-i-pro-obama/

(3) On John McCain, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_mccain . On George H.W. Bush, Born George H. Scherff, Jr, see “This President Was Not Born an American Citizen,” at http://stevebeckow.com/2011/04/this-president-is-not-an-american-citizen/ ; for examples of other sites posting these reports, see www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_bush19.htm ;http://educate-yourself.org/cn/familythatpreystogethercompared24aug07.shtml ; www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1191060/pg1; etc.

(4) I allege that the following people were assassinated in whole or in part because of their desire to disclose the ET/UFO presence: Secretary of Defence James Forrestal, President Kennedy, Phil Schneider, Billy Cooper, and CIA Director William Colby.

(5) Michael E. Salla, PhD, “Eisenhower’s 1954 Meeting With Extraterrestrials:
The Fiftieth Anniversary of First Contact?,” Research Study #8, Revised February 12, 2004, first published January 28, 2004, at http://www.exopolitics.org/Study-paper-8.htm

(6) “From the Book: Behold A Pale Horse Published in 1991 By Milton William Cooper, former United States Intelligence Briefing team member. (Born the 5th of May 1943 and killed on the 6th of November de 2001)” at http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/world/cooper.html ; “SECRET TREATY [between] The United States Government and Extra-terrestrial Entities by Richard K. Wilson and Sylvan Burns” at http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/alien-treaty.htm.

(7) For instance, see “A Wall of UFO Secrecy since the Earliest Days” at http://stevebeckow.com/world-disclosure-day/the-ufo-cover-up/a-wall-of-ufo-secrecy-since-the-earliest-days/ or “Fred Burks: Astronauts, Admirals, CIA Chief Reveal UFO Cover-up” at http://stevebeckow.com/world-disclosure-day/the-ufo-cover-up/fred-burks-astronauts-admirals-cia-chief-reveal-ufo-cover-up/ . These are just two of the round-ups of the U.S. Government’s UFO cover-up.

(8) See “ Ed Komarek: More Background on Solar Warden” at http://stevebeckow.com/2010/07/ed-komarek-more-background-on-solar-warden/; “Ed Komarek: Four Major ET/UFO Issues” at http://stevebeckow.com/2010/07/ed-komarek-four-major-etufo-issues/; “Ed Komarek’s Round-up on ET and UFO Topics” at http://stevebeckow.com/2010/07/ed-komareks-round-up-on-et-and-ufo-topics/ . Also: Michael Salla, Ph.D., “Star Trek vs. Solar Warden – The Real Space Fleet,” Honolulu Exopolitics Examiner, May 8, 2010, at http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m5d8-Star-Trek-vs-Solar-Warden-the-real-Starfleet ; “DoD confirms reality of secret SOLAR WARDEN space project to UFO researcher” at http://thetruthbehindthescenes.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/dod-confirms-reality-of-secret-solar-warden-space-project-to-ufo-researcher/.

(9) Here is a video of the TR3-B: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLdfTMPZcyM

(10) “A conversation with Andrew D. Basiago about the hidden history of his discovery of life on Mars” at http://www.gatheringspot.net/news-article/ufosets/conversation-andrew-d-basiago-about-hidden-history-his-discovery-life-mars (this is just one of many references to the matter, which Andrew Basiago has discussed in videos and radio shows as well). Also see “An Important New Statement From Henry Deacon [Arthur Neumann],” 17 December 2007
from ProjectCamelot Website, at http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_henrydeacon04.htm

(11) Basiago at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ6qeOyob9w

(12) Donna Anderson, “Andrew D. Basiago discusses time travel and the Pegasus Project,” Coast to Coast Radio Examiner, Nov. 13, 2010, at http://www.examiner.com/coast-to-coast-radio-in-national/andrew-d-brasiago-discusses-time-travel-and-the-pegasus-project Also “Coast 2 Coast PROJECT PEGASUS, U.S. Space Time Program and Teleportation” at http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_obama85.htm

(13) Some of these inventions like the silicon chip and fiber-optics are discussed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENzqYCR_djg&feature=related . See also Philip J. Corso,” Wikipedia, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_J._Corso; Richard Boylan, “ET Base on Earth Sanctioned by Officials Since 1954 Confirmed” at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread61318/pg1 ; Nick Pope, “Roswell officer’s amazing deathbed admission raises possibility that aliens DID visit,” Telegraph, Jun 30, 207, at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-465276/Roswell-officers-amazing-deathbed-admission-raises-possibility-aliens-DID-visit.html#ixzz1crGWwkEz A simple Google search will reveal many more sources. I personally heard from two engineers at Hughes Aircraft that Hughes had back-engineered the silicon chip from materials salvaged from the Roswell spacecraft. My own account has been reproduced here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/prepare4contact/message/51347 Here is another indication of the accuracy of that story: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/dayafterroswell/dayafter13.htm

(14) See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk on the Disclosure Project and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud49Gh9yYLs&feature=related , Part 1 (four hours of witness testimony are contained in this series of videos), and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtmpaM0PqyI on the Hastings Panel.

(15) Videos of fleets can be seen at “Compendium of Fleets,” at http://stevebeckow.com/world-disclosure-day/et-ufo-disclosure/compendium-of-ufo-fleets/

(16) Dome of the Rock video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suJlDRoahLA&feature=player_embedded

(17) The broadcast can be heard here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQA0_FmevQM The points it makes are consistent with numerous other messages from space nations.

(18) The best galactic messages, in my opinion, come from the Galactic Federation and are found on websites such as http://www.treeofthegoldenlight.com/First_Contact/Channeled_Messages_by_Mike_Quinsey.htm , http://wandererodtheskies.blogspot.com and http://www.onenessofall.com/Welcome2.html .

[Lefty Dave]

Greetings UnifiedSerenity
Might be better to use logic and scientific evaluations... or even tactics of debate...rather than the law...IMO juris prudence is a far cry from truth or rightiousness (sp)

[Unified Serenity]

Greetings UnifiedSerenity
Might be better to use logic and scientific evaluations... or even tactics of debate...rather than the law...IMO juris prudence is a far cry from truth or rightiousness (sp)

I am simply looking for someone with the understanding of how to present a case in the classic legal sense to do so without all the "I thinks" and "I feels", but evidence to share and thus have a simple presentation that clearly shows the "proofs" so many say they want in one nice neat package. I am not interested in just rambling on no matter how much we like to here on the forum about our experiences which I think are wonderful to share. It's an exercise in a simple presentation which we can then ponder in our jury forum of avalon then start our ramblings based upon the case presented. We could also open this to someone who wants to present the "There is no proof" side, but proving a negative is impossible, though I am sure someone here could give it a good college try.

[vibrations]

In a valid law systems (all over the world the law system is very similar with a little differences) there are normally two ways to prove a claim. One of them is based in a witness testimony (more witnesses, more credibility) and the other is presenting physical, forensically backed up proof or proofs. Going by the book any of them would do the thing. Then we stumble on a real situation. Only by memory I can tell you about at least 100 cases of ET sightings where there was more than one witness and non of them was accepted as something real. I think this is because we are all just human, framed inside the beliefs which determine our acceptance of what could be real and what no.
The same thing is with a physical proofs. Let's say you bring a ET pilot helmet made from unknown material, metal or mineral, with unknown gadgets included, far beyond our technological level. As I can imagine, after a period of waiting if the court will accept the proof or not, there would be suddenly some government agency confiscating the item and you would be ridiculed in front of the public as a fraud.
The hardest evidence would be an EBE, so biological proof in form of a body, it's remains or even living creature. My bet for outcome would be, very happy if you come alive from the situation.
We all want something to lean on, like a independent court, blind justice which weight the facts and decide. As I know judges, we are talking about people influenced by the politics, religion, fears and stupidity (this comes to live a long time between other lawyers).
As a conclusion I would say the only possible way to present any proof and hope for some outcome would be having a big, very known law firm behind you in a form of a team of lawyers fighting for you. And this means a few containers of money just for them. Even than our system would maybe find something to discredit you. Remember the justice is blind only in the statue which represents.

[Unified Serenity]

In a valid law systems (all over the world the law system is very similar with a little differences) there are normally two ways to prove a claim. One of them is based in a witness testimony (more witnesses, more credibility) and the other is presenting physical, forensically backed up proof or proofs. Going by the book any of them would do the thing. Then we stumble on a real situation. Only by memory I can tell you about at least 100 cases of ET sightings where there was more than one witness and non of them was accepted as something real. I think this is because we are all just human, framed inside the beliefs which determine our acceptance of what could be real and what no.
The same thing is with a physical proofs. Let's say you bring a ET pilot helmet made from unknown material, metal or mineral, with unknown gadgets included, far beyond our technological level. As I can imagine, after a period of waiting if the court will accept the proof or not, there would be suddenly some government agency confiscating the item and you would be ridiculed in front of the public as a fraud.
The hardest evidence would be an EBE, so biological proof in form of a body, it's remains or even living creature. My bet for outcome would be, very happy if you come alive from the situation.
We all want something to lean on, like a independent court, blind justice which weight the facts and decide. As I know judges, we are talking about people influenced by the politics, religion, fears and stupidity (this comes to live a long time between other lawyers).
As a conclusion I would say the only possible way to present any proof and hope for some outcome would be having a big, very known law firm behind you in a form of a team of lawyers fighting for you. And this means a few containers of money just for them. Even than our system would maybe find something to discredit you. Remember the justice is blind only in the statue which represents.

I bet we have a few lawyers who read this forum who are into this topic. There is plenty of inculpatory evidence that would be presented by such a legal mind. I am simply asking for someone of such a bend to take up this cause and present the case. Heck, it could turn into a book maybe with the title, "Aliens exist beyond a reasonable doubt" or something like that. I just wanna see the case presented succinctly.

[vibrations]

I bet we have a few lawyers who read this forum who are into this topic. There is plenty of inculpatory evidence that would be presented by such a legal mind. I am simply asking for someone of such a bend to take up this cause and present the case. Heck, it could turn into a book maybe with the title, "Aliens exist beyond a reasonable doubt" or something like that. I just wanna see the case presented succinctly.

I understand your point. I studied law but hated it for many years now (seeing how it is), I've turned to other profession so, no practice. maybe you should make a direct call "any lawyer here, need help" or something. Good luck.

[Unified Serenity]

I bet we have a few lawyers who read this forum who are into this topic. There is plenty of inculpatory evidence that would be presented by such a legal mind. I am simply asking for someone of such a bend to take up this cause and present the case. Heck, it could turn into a book maybe with the title, "Aliens exist beyond a reasonable doubt" or something like that. I just wanna see the case presented succinctly.

I understand your point. I studied law but hated it for many years now (seeing how it is), I've turned to other profession so, no practice. maybe you should make a direct call "any lawyer here, need help" or something. Good luck.

My dear vibrations, are you implying that no lawyer would take this case pro bono?

[Lord Sidious]

In a valid law systems (all over the world the law system is very similar with a little differences) there are normally two ways to prove a claim. One of them is based in a witness testimony (more witnesses, more credibility) and the other is presenting physical, forensically backed up proof or proofs. Going by the book any of them would do the thing. Then we stumble on a real situation. Only by memory I can tell you about at least 100 cases of ET sightings where there was more than one witness and non of them was accepted as something real. I think this is because we are all just human, framed inside the beliefs which determine our acceptance of what could be real and what no.
The same thing is with a physical proofs. Let's say you bring a ET pilot helmet made from unknown material, metal or mineral, with unknown gadgets included, far beyond our technological level. As I can imagine, after a period of waiting if the court will accept the proof or not, there would be suddenly some government agency confiscating the item and you would be ridiculed in front of the public as a fraud.
The hardest evidence would be an EBE, so biological proof in form of a body, it's remains or even living creature. My bet for outcome would be, very happy if you come alive from the situation.
We all want something to lean on, like a independent court, blind justice which weight the facts and decide. As I know judges, we are talking about people influenced by the politics, religion, fears and stupidity (this comes to live a long time between other lawyers).
As a conclusion I would say the only possible way to present any proof and hope for some outcome would be having a big, very known law firm behind you in a form of a team of lawyers fighting for you. And this means a few containers of money just for them. Even than our system would maybe find something to discredit you. Remember the justice is blind only in the statue which represents.

I bet we have a few lawyers who read this forum who are into this topic. There is plenty of inculpatory evidence that would be presented by such a legal mind. I am simply asking for someone of such a bend to take up this cause and present the case. Heck, it could turn into a book maybe with the title, "Aliens exist beyond a reasonable doubt" or something like that. I just wanna see the case presented succinctly.

This would be a civil case, so the standard of proof required would be ''the balance of probabilities'' not ''beyond reasonable doubt'' as that is in the criminal jurisdiction.

[161803398]

you'd need expert witnesses.

You'd also need to figure out who are the Plaintiff's; who are the Defendant's; what is the cause of action? Then who are the witnesses you want to call.

You are wrong if you think a bunch of lawyers are going to answer your thread. They get the same treatment at parties, outings, picnics etc etc etc.

[vibrations]

My dear vibrations, are you implying that no lawyer would take this case pro bono?

If I would be the lawyer I surely would, and our Lord is absolutely right, Anglo-Saxon way of treating the cases is as he is pointing out. This are also main differences between Common Law and Administrative one more widely expanded over the planet.

[Fundy Gemini]

The circumstantial evidence is already VERY strong yet receives nothing but ridicule. In this light I am very happy that shows like "Ancient Aliens" help to expand at least the possibility in the minds of the general public so that some day all evidence will be weighed without prejudice. The real trouble is that no body of proof will ever negate the fear of 'Devine' retaliation -until- ...

[Unified Serenity]

This would be a civil case, so the standard of proof required would be ''the balance of probabilities'' not ''beyond reasonable doubt'' as that is in the criminal jurisdiction.

See, lawyers parsing words, but in this case it is justified. Thanks for the distinction Sid. So the book title might be, "Aliens above the balance of probabilities" wow not a very catchy title, but ok.

[Kindred]

U-S... As has been Well pointed out by 'vibrations', it is the nature of our systems of law that ultimately will cause such a submission to 'fail the test', for they will only acknowledge what they've been Allowed To Acknowledge. Unfortunately, the 'law' only goes as far as previous legal precedence, which thus entails having to go all the way up the legal ladder, to the Supreme Court, whether it be in a Regional, or Federal jurisdiction.

I will make a point of this issue by offering a simple observation: It is 'commonly' acknowledged in scientific and engineering circles (and enforced by the Patent & Trademark Office) that there is No Such Thing as 'Perpetual Motion'. However, lets think about this for a moment... If perpetual motion is Impossible, then HOW is it Possible for Electrons to orbit the nucleus of an Atom INDEFINITELY???

I think you see the (lack of) logic at work here. For the Gov't to acknowledge an 'alien presence', it would then be required to admit All Kinds of heretofore Unaccepted and Unacceptable Ideas - tptb thus maintain an Irrational stranglehold on Logic.

For Now.

But, don't give up Hope, for Hope Springs Eternal.

[araucaria]

I think you are looking for someone to do what Victor Zammit is doing for life after death:
http://www.victorzammit.com/
Can't think of anyone offhand but this link is worth a look

[Unified Serenity]

U-S... As has been Well pointed out by 'vibrations', it is the nature of our systems of law that ultimately will cause such a submission to 'fail the test', for they will only acknowledge what they've been Allowed To Acknowledge. Unfortunately, the 'law' only goes as far as previous legal precedence, which thus entails having to go all the way up the legal ladder, to the Supreme Court, whether it be in a Regional, or Federal jurisdiction.

I will make a point of this issue by offering a simple observation: It is 'commonly' acknowledged in scientific and engineering circles (and enforced by the Patent & Trademark Office) that there is No Such Thing as 'Perpetual Motion'. However, lets think about this for a moment... If perpetual motion is Impossible, then HOW is it Possible for Electrons to orbit the nucleus of an Atom INDEFINITELY???

I think you see the (lack of) logic at work here. For the Gov't to acknowledge an 'alien presence', it would then be required to admit All Kinds of heretofore Unaccepted and Unacceptable Ideas - tptb thus maintain an Irrational stranglehold on Logic.

For Now.

But, don't give up Hope, for Hope Springs Eternal.

Kindred, I am not thinking of a bureaucratic court case, but just the presentation of a case in a clear cut was as Lawyers are taught in school. I am not hoping for this to take part in society in some court room. It's an exercise in presentation beyond anecdotal stories, but a case based on evidence as applies to most logical thinking humans. I think some of you are really over thinking my OP.

[another bob]

Greetings, Friends!

The kind of proof/disclosure people are looking for will not be generally available until we as a species venture out into the solar system in great numbers. Then of course the truth will be unavoidably obvious. It will be many decades from now when this unfolds.

Blessings!

[Lord Sidious]

Kindred, I am not thinking of a bureaucratic court case, but just the presentation of a case in a clear cut was as Lawyers are taught in school. I am not hoping for this to take part in society in some court room. It's an exercise in presentation beyond anecdotal stories, but a case based on evidence as applies to most logical thinking humans. I think some of you are really over thinking my OP.

Clear cut?
You never studied law, did you? :p

[Unified Serenity]

Clear cut?
You never studied law, did you? :p

Sid, you are a lawyer or should be. Can you present the case that best portrays the proof of alien contact here?

[Lord Sidious]

Sid, you are a lawyer or should be. Can you present the case that best portrays the proof of alien contact here?

It is possible.
If you can put all the details together in some type of format, I can look at it.
I won't bill you by the hour either. :p

[Kindred]

Clear cut?
You never studied law, did you? :p

I'm reminded of Don Henley's song, "In the Garden of Allah"...

"Today I made an appearance downtown
I am an expert witness, because I say I am
And I said, "Gentlemen",... and I use that word Loosely
I will testify for you
I'm a gun for hire, I'm a saint, I'm a liar
Because there are no facts, there is no truth
just data to be manipulated
I can get you any result you like
What's it worth to ya?
Because there is no wrong, there is no right
and I sleep very well at night
No Shame, No solution
No Remorse, No retribution
Just people selling T-shirts
Just opportunity to participate in the pathetic little circus
and winning, winning, winning."

Truly, one of the saddest commentaries on the lowest actions of our species.

[Unified Serenity]

Sid, you are a lawyer or should be. Can you present the case that best portrays the proof of alien contact here?

It is possible.
If you can put all the details together in some type of format, I can look at it.
I won't bill you by the hour either. :p

Oh, so let me do all the work and you supply a few words connecting them? I am looking for someone who has the proof through lots of research who can present it. I don't have it compiled, but I bet someone who is a lawyer does have it. Or who is much like a lawyer and understands how to present it as a case.

[Lord Sidious]

Oh, so let me do all the work and you supply a few words connecting them? I am looking for someone who has the proof through lots of research who can present it. I don't have it compiled, but I bet someone who is a lawyer does have it. Or who is much like a lawyer and understands how to present it as a case.

Well, you don't seem to realise how this works.
You want help, or do you want someone to do it all for you?
I am happy to do my bit, but I am not going to do it all.

[Unified Serenity]

Well, you don't seem to realise how this works.
You want help, or do you want someone to do it all for you?
I am happy to do my bit, but I am not going to do it all.

Then I guess you are out LS. I am waiting for someone who has both capabilities and feels called thusly.

[Lord Sidious]

Well, you don't seem to realise how this works.
You want help, or do you want someone to do it all for you?
I am happy to do my bit, but I am not going to do it all.

Then I guess you are out LS. I am waiting for someone who has both capabilities and feels called thusly.

I doubt you will find anyone to help you with your attitude, but good luck.

[Unified Serenity]

Well, you don't seem to realise how this works.
You want help, or do you want someone to do it all for you?
I am happy to do my bit, but I am not going to do it all.

Then I guess you are out LS. I am waiting for someone who has both capabilities and feels called thusly.

I doubt you will find anyone to help you with your attitude, but good luck.

Hey LS, I just put out the request. I don't know where "attitude" comes from. I think the idea is worth putting out here, and if someone of such skill is reading the forum and wishes to put together the case, then that's great. I never said I was going to be involved in putting together the information. I am interested in Alien and UFO stuff, but would not consider myself an avid researcher of that area, more curious than a compiler of data.

Think of me what you want, but you seemed to want me to put together the data and you would put together the case. Maybe there is someone else reading who wishes to take up the data part and send it to you to put together the case. I am all for that happening.

[Kindred]

U-S, & Lord Sid... If I may...

As the Disclosure Project has found (http://disclosureproject.org/), having Hundreds of eye-witnesses and first hand testimony from military personnel, pilots and professionals from all walks of life, and presenting documented evidence to Many 'politicos' to the highest official offices in the land has resulted in NADA. No Official Acknowledgment whatsoever. They Just Don't Care, because of the previously established refusal to acknowledge Anything that challenges the Status Quo.

U-S I mean you no disrespect whatsoever. But, I feel this is a legitimate question:
What do you hope to establish or accomplish with your actions?
Not that I don't feel and think the same as you, because I do. But, I've come to realize that there is Plenty of evidence for each of US to make our Own determination. If you haven't already done the homework, perhaps now is the time to start. Seek the knowledge yourself, so that you KNOW. All the facts are 'Out There'...

I'll offer this item. A rather short read, and, yes, I know I've been 'promoting' this piece of late. There is a Reason I do this. After you read it, you are welcome to ask, and I'll offer you the reason Why I KNOW that this IS the Truth. http://www.galactic-server.net/rune/thaoeng.html

[Unified Serenity]

U-S, & Lord Sid... If I may...

As the Disclosure Project has found (http://disclosureproject.org/), having Hundreds of eye-witnesses and first hand testimony from military personnel, pilots and professionals from all walks of life, and presenting documented evidence to Many 'politicos' to the highest official offices in the land has resulted in NADA. No Official Acknowledgment whatsoever. They Just Don't Care, because of the previously established refusal to acknowledge Anything that challenges the Status Quo.

U-S I mean you no disrespect whatsoever. But, I feel this is a legitimate question:
What do you hope to establish or accomplish with your actions?
Not that I don't feel and think the same as you, because I do. But, I've come to realize that there is Plenty of evidence for each of US to make our Own determination. If you haven't already done the homework, perhaps now is the time to start. Seek the knowledge yourself, so that you KNOW. All the facts are 'Out There'...

I'll offer this item. A rather short read, and, yes, I know I've been 'promoting' this piece of late. There is a Reason I do this. After you read it, you are welcome to ask, and I'll offer you the reason Why I KNOW that this IS the Truth. http://www.galactic-server.net/rune/thaoeng.html

Thanks for the response Kindred,

I am an avid reader and do have enough "proof" in my mind of what the truth is. I think the disclosure project while being an excellent endeavor is not presented in the way in which my post suggests. What is wrong with a formal presentation of facts as we have them presented without the non-evidential aspects? It was a suggestion and only a suggestion. If you don't think it would bear any fruit so be it. I do believe it is just one more tool which some will see if presented in a clear means and be hard to refute.

It's really a fairly simple idea that it seems many want to debate the validity of my OP. I imagine someone has compiled such a file and maybe if they read this they will put it together in such a way. I know the information is out there, I have seen a lot of it, I simply put out the request and again believe someone just needs the request to have it presented. If you don't want to go on record with it, you can pm me and I will post it giving credit to anonymous.

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

As the Disclosure Project has found (http://disclosureproject.org/), having Hundreds of eye-witnesses and first hand testimony from military personnel, pilots and professionals from all walks of life, and presenting documented evidence to Many 'politicos' to the highest official offices in the land has resulted in NADA. No Official Acknowledgment whatsoever. They Just Don't Care, because of the previously established refusal to acknowledge Anything that challenges the Status Quo.



I beg to differ. They do care. VERY MUCH.
They care that the public doesn´t find out the truth.
Why?
Because they have a lot "invested" in the "GOD" business. GOD = Guns, oil and drugs.
They couldn´t "afford" a mass awakening ie. that we have been lied to for so many years.
If the masses were to find out about free energy and that we have been visited, what do you think would happen to all their businesses?

[Lord Sidious]

U-S, & Lord Sid... If I may...

As the Disclosure Project has found (http://disclosureproject.org/), having Hundreds of eye-witnesses and first hand testimony from military personnel, pilots and professionals from all walks of life, and presenting documented evidence to Many 'politicos' to the highest official offices in the land has resulted in NADA. No Official Acknowledgment whatsoever. They Just Don't Care, because of the previously established refusal to acknowledge Anything that challenges the Status Quo.

U-S I mean you no disrespect whatsoever. But, I feel this is a legitimate question:
What do you hope to establish or accomplish with your actions?
Not that I don't feel and think the same as you, because I do. But, I've come to realize that there is Plenty of evidence for each of US to make our Own determination. If you haven't already done the homework, perhaps now is the time to start. Seek the knowledge yourself, so that you KNOW. All the facts are 'Out There'...

I'll offer this item. A rather short read, and, yes, I know I've been 'promoting' this piece of late. There is a Reason I do this. After you read it, you are welcome to ask, and I'll offer you the reason Why I KNOW that this IS the Truth. http://www.galactic-server.net/rune/thaoeng.html

The problem is, it is all well and good to hand over testimony, but did anyone ask for a remedy?
Otherwise, why would you expect them to do something if you didn't ask them to do anything?
Try that in a court and they will dismiss the case, on the spot for not asking for a remedy.

[Kindred]

I beg to differ. They do care. VERY MUCH.
They care that the public doesn´t find out the truth.
Why?
Because they have a lot "invested" in the "GOD" business. GOD = Guns, oil and drugs.
They couldn´t "afford" a mass awakening ie. that we have been lied to for so many years.
If the masses were to find out about free energy and that we have been visited, what do you think would happen to all their businesses?

I-H... you are quite correct, but I hadn't bothered to point that out, as I felt is was both implied and well known...

I do hope everyone is aware of the upcoming presentation happening on 11-11-11 - Thrive...
http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=thrive+11-11-11

I've signed up and will be getting some people together to watch it here where I live. I feel it will be well worth it.

And, perhaps, THIS will be the Beginning of Humankind's movement into a True Civilization.

This is My Hope...

[Unified Serenity]

The problem is, it is all well and good to hand over testimony, but did anyone ask for a remedy?
Otherwise, why would you expect them to do something if you didn't ask them to do anything?
Try that in a court and they will dismiss the case, on the spot for not asking for a remedy.

I beg to differ LS. In my OP, I said,In regards to the discussion of 'Do aliens exist" I would like someone who is either a lawyer or understands how to present a case for a court of law to take the "Proof" side that we have been visited in a myriad of ways by aliens. That this Proof thread would lay out a clear case beyond a reasonable doubt based on said evidence.

While that might not be clear enough for you (and you do sound like a lawyer, are you?) I do believe I have made it crystal clear throughout this thread that I was looking for someone who has the information of evidential proof and can present the case in a clear manner. Now, if that is not something you wish to do or your paralegal has time for, then I leave the request out here for someone else who already has started compiling said evidence. I think I am done word crunching with you on this. My request and idea stands, and I will leave it at that.

Unified Serenity in recess

[Kindred]

The problem is, it is all well and good to hand over testimony, but did anyone ask for a remedy?
Otherwise, why would you expect them to do something if you didn't ask them to do anything?
Try that in a court and they will dismiss the case, on the spot for not asking for a remedy.

Good Point... But, what would be the remedy? How about Truth and Acknowledgment of the known facts? Yah... that's a bit much to expect from the likes of them.

But, realistically - issuance of all previously submitted patents for over unity devices, based on applicable patent law, release of all government held data on extraterrestrial encounters involving treaties and exchanges, not impacting 'national security' (yah, right!)...

In all honesty, it's hard to find a 'remedy' for Truth, and it's acknowledgment, for Truth IS the remedy.

In Unity and Peace

[Lord Sidious]

The problem is, it is all well and good to hand over testimony, but did anyone ask for a remedy?
Otherwise, why would you expect them to do something if you didn't ask them to do anything?
Try that in a court and they will dismiss the case, on the spot for not asking for a remedy.

I beg to differ LS. In my OP, I said,In regards to the discussion of 'Do aliens exist" I would like someone who is either a lawyer or understands how to present a case for a court of law to take the "Proof" side that we have been visited in a myriad of ways by aliens. That this Proof thread would lay out a clear case beyond a reasonable doubt based on said evidence.

While that might not be clear enough for you (and you do sound like a lawyer, are you?) I do believe I have made it crystal clear throughout this thread that I was looking for someone who has the information of evidential proof and can present the case in a clear manner. Now, if that is not something you wish to do or your paralegal has time for, then I leave the request out here for someone else who already has started compiling said evidence. I think I am done word crunching with you on this. My request and idea stands, and I will leave it at that.

Unified Serenity in recess

Differ as much as you like, you aren't seeking a remedy.
I suggest you go look that up before you chuck your toys out of the pram.

[Unified Serenity]

Differ as much as you like, you aren't seeking a remedy.
I suggest you go look that up before you chuck your toys out of the pram.

Howling with laughter here Sid! Ok, you are right, I am not suing for anything. I already said that this idea is not for a real world court case, but simply to have someone of gifted legal mind to take the evidence and present it for those in the world and on this forum as it is part of the world to ponder and discuss, and as most of us are believers we can enjoy the presentation and share it with others. The remedy I guess is to hear the case, and withhold judgement until evidence is presented. I just want the case presented and have it done as stated. No takers? Fine, I will live with it..... toys soundly in my pram sir.

[Carmody]

I appreciate that nuance starchild, but this is not a thread about the proof of the existence of God. It's a thread about the existence of Aliens and their visiting us on earth. I can point to historical images and depictions such as those in Sumeria, great paintings, and even the book of Ezekiel gasp! So, I would like to stay on topic and not pick it apart with regards to religion.

Thanks

It does not matter if you are asking about god, aliens, over-unity technology or anti-gravity.

You are at that moment in the asking for proof, with regard to getting it....one is firmly down the road of 'touching the face/edge of the forbidden'.

All those doors are closed. All those roads are blocked.

Purposely.

IMO, until enough of us have come to understand such things in a level (quantity and most specifically quality of individuals, critical mass) and way that surpasses and extends fully and completely beyond your fear of death for pursuing it....until then..you will receive nothing.

it's not about planning, or meeting, or grouping, or talking, or even belief. It's about Knowing, it's about being, it's about walking into the face of it with no fear, as a hard reality that is within one and is unbreakable. NOT faith. The definition of faith is 'believing'... but no proof. A major difference.

But knowing, knowledge, and all that such a thing implies.

You are also going to have to get your hands dirty, at the same time such a proposition and act......has no effect on your balance.

A note to those who are 'evil'. Egocentric, narcissistic and vicious.

They say that 'everything is permitted'. And it is.

Foolish Human, you should have asked about cost.

[Unified Serenity]

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/299751_240365436012956_223611297688370_590227_1723535218_n.jpg

How easy it is for the message to get lost in the false images and others interpretations of the information.

[mosquito]

If you want legal advice and you consult a lawyer, you'd be well advised to follow their advice, as they know the legal system far better than you do. It seems you still hold the airy-fairy notion that your legal system is somehow concerned with justice, which it isn't.

It's been hilarious for me to come to this thread and witness you arguing tooth and nail with the person you claim to be seeking, i.e. a lawyer. I know you're intelligent enough to work out who I mean ! ;)

If I may be permitted to add my views, without wishing to hijack your thread, and I'm not merely quibling about semantics - you need to be clear on what you wish to achieve, if what you want is "proof", then you're not very likely to get it, be it for the existence of aliens or virtually anything else. Philosophers have been trying for centuries to prove the existence of God, and none has succeeded ! All I believe you can successsfully achieve is a summation of the evidence, (most of which is ambiguous anyway) allowing the people, the jury if you prefer, to reach their own decision. But then we have another problem, how many of our fellow men and women are actually capable of reaching an intelligent decision without being told what to believe ?

I certainly don't want to disrupt your thread, I understand your reasoning, and agree that it would be nice to be able to summarise the data and leave an open verdict. I have to go and teach aclass fairly soon, but later on I'd lilke to make a suggestion about how to tackle this. I'm not a lawyer, but most of my working experience has been as a problem solver, so I have a good idea how to go about dealing with certain issues.

[raregem]

OK U-S...Let me see if I understand what you want...A lawyer (specifically) who has already or is willing to compile "proof" of Alien exsistence. Then, you want that person - who has compiled the research -to present it formally as if, it were a court of law. Then, perhaps, make it into a book...??... Correct?

What will you be doing -while every bit of work is done by someone else -pro bono, no less ?

You have not made yourself clear in your initial post...after reading through this thread - I conclude what my initial paragraph states.
I appreciate the posters comments that seemed to you to go off topic. The posts were valid -considering your first post. And they showed concern.
You have been snippy to people who gave a d***. Unreasonable.
There is so much info and books concerning Alien Beings, as well, the ancient pictographs and paintings.

What do you bring to the table that has not been done before?
(Expecting others to do all the work and presentations has been done before )
Perhaps, that could be the jumping point for your endeavor... IMO..

[Unified Serenity]

OK U-S...Let me see if I understand what you want...A lawyer (specifically) who has already or is willing to compile "proof" of Alien exsistence. Then, you want that person - who has compiled the research -to present it formally as if, it were a court of law. Then, perhaps, make it into a book...??... Correct?

What will you be doing -while every bit of work is done by someone else -pro bono, no less ?

You have not made yourself clear in your initial post...after reading through this thread - I conclude what my initial paragraph states.
I appreciate the posters comments that seemed to you to go off topic. The posts were valid -considering your first post. And they showed concern.
You have been snippy to people who gave a d***. Unreasonable.
There is so much info and books concerning Alien Beings, as well, the ancient pictographs and paintings.

What do you bring to the table that has not been done before?
(Expecting others to do all the work and presentations has been done before )
Perhaps, that could be the jumping point for your endeavor... IMO..

Quite frankly, I have stated an idea and been very clear about what I want. Now, whether you like it or not I really don't care. Very few of you can stay on topic. You'd rather tear the topic apart, criticize the OP, and go off topic on some tangent that has little or nothing to do with the purpose of someone's original post. You have no clue what I work on and we each have our callings. Mine is not to put this sort of thing together, and yes there are many books and efforts have been made presenting evidence and stories, and I enjoy them all.

My idea was simple. If someone wants to take up my idea that's great. I myself am working on something very different which is my calling. I will not be bullied, backed into some pseudo arguments or go off topic which is what so many as I said before seem to want to do on posts. We just had a wonderful post started by Pineal (Tony) about Roman leaving. Roman came back and said one of the main reasons he left was this sort of behavior that happens so often on threads. I think he worded it very well. Many expressed their regret for Roman leaving, and he came back gracefully.

I am not so easily discouraged or bullied into leaving. I don't agree with everyone here or their ideas, but I respect their right to share and post their topics. If I don't like a topic or OP then I avoid it. I don't berate the person for writing it or disagree with their methods of questioning something. I'm amazed at the vitriol expressed because some of you don't like my idea. If you don't feel called to do this work, then don't do it, but don't berate me for bringing up an idea.

ps. much of the banter in the beginning was jovial. The whole "book" idea was a joke for god's sake. I have not seen evidence of alien visits presented clearly as a lawyer would. Why is a lawyers time worth more than anyone else if that is something a lawyer is interested in doing. The whole pro bono was a joke too. Everyone shares info here pro bono. I am sure there are some gifted writers and authors here who have shared much and not charged us for their input.

[Lord Sidious]

No one is bullying you.
Part of the problem is that you don't know enough about the legal field to realise that what you want is not practical.
You won't take advice, you want to give people a hard time.
I tried to put some things to you and your attitude was insulting, that you would do all the work and I would ''add a few words'' here and there.
If you came to me for help in a real legal case like this, I would tell you to fix it yourself.
If there is hostility in some posts, that is because you are putting that out, probably without realising it.

[modwiz]

All personalities aside. This thread has demonstrated the trouble for many people to walk a straight and narrow path where required or requested, as the OP has done here. Tangential musings work and are great in many threads and provide enrichment. This is not one of those threads. This should be a simple slam dunk. You have something or you don't.

Lord Sid, as usual, brings the goods. Not the goods wanted, but completely on topic.

I apologize to the OP, and all, for proving my own point by being off topic, but I will own it.

[Khaleesi]

Before I make any reply to the responses on this thread, I want to disclose the fact that Serenity and I are partners. This does not mean I will defend her when I think she is wrong (ducking a swipe at my head) but I may at times try to clarify. I believe Serenity was quite clear in the OP that some responses tend to go off topic. No offense to the poster but the first response to this thread proved her point. The idea for the post, as Serenity stated, came from another thread. Her request was simple. Is there anyone on this forum that has already done the research on this topic? Serenity is certainly not adverse to putting in the time and effort to research a topic of interest. At the moment she is researching in other areas. She simply thought, with the number of people on this forum with such a wide variety of interest, surely there must be someone that has already gathered this information or at least a portion of this information. She finds the topic interesting and would enjoy reading a compilation of 'factual' data but as I said, she is researching other things at the moment. Gathering the data would take time. She is not asking anyone here to take on this task. She simply considers it highly possible that someone has already DONE the research and wonders if they would like to share. Somehow the thread has devolved into "Do your own work" and "Your attitude is insulting." If you find the topic interesting but do not have a lot of research to contribute, just say so and move on. No need for insults.

[Carmody]

Observationally speaking, it apparently has always been a question of human frailty and internal design parameters..and how much work the individual has done to be aware of such and to change the internal wiring of the given self.

To me, legalities have never been part of the issue other than having the possibility of being an extra nail or similar, when it comes to hammering or hobbling together some sort of an evidential trail - into anything that is functional for the given desired situation.

A legal solution may provide some proffered position/answer for some of the human race, but the individual will very likely need some form of intense personal and direct influence from said alien or whatnot, regarding both capacity and reality to 'believe', no matter what any legal situation (regarding methodology of proofing) may bring to the given individual.

As a General or member or the joint chiefs of staff for the military Was reported to say to Hal Puthoff (in the Jim Marrs book: PSI Spies), regarding the psychic spy and work programs that the military enacted in earlier years (Hal was the head of this program at the time), "It does not matter WHAT proof you bring to me, I will simply refuse to believe it."

Essentially, an example could be: if one is trying to tell someone that a family member is dead, and refusing to provide a body. the person with the missing family member WILL REFUSE to believe until the body is provided for direct inspection. And one could go from person to person to person, to present each individual with the same situation... and a very large number of people would refuse to believe in any way, shape, or form, until a body is provided, directly, for full personal inspection and handling.

We each have similarities in our response to stimuli, but we also have individual response patterns. Thus the requisite answers or presented situations would need to be coming from multiple avenues and multiple directions, in order to provide 'proof' to the overall group. 'Legal' is only one area of proofing.

We seem to be getting to a position where more and more of the requisite avenues for proofing to travel down and reach the general population...it seems as if those doors, paths and methods are being used.

[GCS1103]

All right....I will take on the task of presenting proof of alien existence, as if I was presenting this case to a court of law. I'll use my best trial skills to present my side of this issue. The original topic meandered off a little bit, I guess. So, Unified Serenity, I will try the case, like they did in that famous movie, "Inherit The Wind", where I will present evidence of alien existence. Of course, there will always be an "adversary", since I have no physical evidence that I can bring to you, but I'm guessing some of our fellow members will have opposing views that will make this interesting.

This reminds me of something my law partner, Ed, used to do on a TV show, in the late 1980's. It was called "The Morton Downey, Jr Show" and Mort would have people on who had opposing points of views and they would discuss them. Sometimes it got very heated and once there was a physical altercation between Al Sharpton and another guest. My partner was told he HAD to be "anti-death penalty" and this particular episode was being filmed live in Philadelphia. There was about 400 people in the audience when they taped and they were almost all "pro-death penalty". The police had to be called to take us back to the hotel, because we would not have made it back alive. So, I'm happy I'm presenting this case on the internet with just my computer in the room.;)

[Unified Serenity]

All right....I will take on the task of presenting proof of alien existence, as if I was presenting this case to a court of law. I'll use my best trial skills to present my side of this issue. The original topic meandered off a little bit, I guess. So, Unified Serenity, I will try the case, like they did in that famous movie, "Inherit The Wind", where I will present evidence of alien existence. Of course, there will always be an "adversary", since I have no physical evidence that I can bring to you, but I'm guessing some of our fellow members will have opposing views that will make this interesting.

This reminds me of something my law partner, Ed, used to do on a TV show, in the late 1980's. It was called "The Morton Downey, Jr Show" and Mort would have people on who had opposing points of views and they would discuss them. Sometimes it got very heated and once there was a physical altercation between Al Sharpton and another guest. My partner was told he HAD to be "anti-death penalty" and this particular episode was being filmed live in Philadelphia. There was about 400 people in the audience when they taped and they were almost all "pro-death penalty". The police had to be called to take us back to the hotel, because we would not have made it back alive. So, I'm happy I'm presenting this case on the internet with just my computer in the room.;)

Thank you so very much for taking on this task. I look forward to reading what you share when you are ready. I believe it will be most interesting.

US

[LisAlien]

There is obviously a reason for which we do not understand, as to why these off-world entities are not presenting themselves to everyone.

Are some people chosen? Possibly.
Does that include but not limited to government agents? Probably.

But OP (like everyone else) wants proof or a good argument as to their existence. Perhaps this phenomena is not for you to know at this time. Because to me, truth doesn't need to be proven. It's realized.

Like love. You can't prove love. You known it. Although we're talking about two different sensations: emotions verses tangible. However, they are still both 'felt'.

We're too programmed from living in a world that requires tangible proof. Those are the instructions in our manual in order to render something 'real'. (ask a blind person what THEIR requirements are and I'm sure they are much deeper)

So in other words; if science or math can't prove it, it doesn't exist. And that's a primitive (but understandable) shame. Because I don't believe the Universe works by our(limited) laws of principle.

So all I can surmise is, those who need proof, aren't ready. Those who realize, don't require proof.

And as dear old Clifford Stone once said: The absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

I know this isn't what you wanted OP but it's from my heart. Not my head.

[Khaleesi]

Serenity has become frustrated with some of the responses she is receiving. Let me try, once again, to clarify what she is saying. Serenity does not want a discussion on the merits (or lack of merit) of presenting the material in a legal manner. She does not want a dissertation on the legal system and why this is not the correct manner to present the data. She chose that form because she has not seen it presented that way in the past. She also does not need to be told "No amount of proof will make you believe if you do not want to believe." She has no problem believing. I can personally attest to the fact that she sits on our deck every night gazing at the stars and contemplating the stars and the immense possibilities of life 'out there' in the universe. Quite frankly, she is tired of this post being picked apart. Why do people need to question her motives or the form she requested the information be put into? GCS, thank you for your response and willingness to put together the info Serenity requested.

[Lord Sidious]

Serenity has become frustrated with some of the responses she is receiving. Let me try, once again, to clarify what she is saying. Serenity does not want a discussion on the merits (or lack of merit) of presenting the material in a legal manner. She does not want a dissertation on the legal system and why this is not the correct manner to present the data. She chose that form because she has not seen it presented that way in the past. She also does not need to be told "No amount of proof will make you believe if you do not want to believe." She has no problem believing. I can personally attest to the fact that she sits on our deck every night gazing at the stars and contemplating the stars and the immense possibilities of life 'out there' in the universe. Quite frankly, she is tired of this post being picked apart. Why do people need to question her motives or the form she requested the information be put into? GCS, thank you for your response and willingness to put together the info Serenity requested.

For me, I find the whole thing confusing.
It is ok for US to say what she wants, even to demean other posters, but if we post something she doesn't like, that is frustrating for her?
I offered my help, to be put down as if my time is worth jack, but hers is more important.
And now, she has a thread with a disclaimer not to post if you don't know about the topic and have studied it!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KIzbktgJk

[Peace of Mind]

I have yet to see any proof/evidence of ET’s existing. I only see people who either can’t describe what they experience or are attempting to brainwash others with lies. You would be a fool to believe in such things when there is absolutely no evidence of it. Why do so...and then use unproven facts you may have learned from the enemy to support your (claimed) truths? Humans are in a bad situation now because they believe in those they can’t trust. I think most of the ET hype is cleverly done by agents looking to start this project blue beam scenario as soon as possible…but people like me have always been a thorn in their side. I refuse to give away my power to fiction. I refuse to let the masses get used without a fight. Everything real has some form of validity….so where is it? The reason subjects like this exist in the mind is due to media and systematic conditioning. Get the masses to ponder on the ideas of unseen/unproven beings will weaken them by keeping them pre-occupied with (lack of a better word, atm) nonsense.

I would never ask someone to believe something I can’t explain or prove to be true. "Why would anyone do this?" is a question EVERYONE should be asking. A very good answer awaits...

To beleive in the unproven will always cause more confusion and keep people guessing…therefore preventing them from focusing on the more pressing issues. So knowing that this happens all the time…I’ll just keep it to myself until ridicule can be met with actual facts. Simple as that. TBH, many times this subject matter looks totally like a set up.

Hears my question...

I sure would like to know exactly what any of the Alien talk here and/or abroad has done for us?

All I ever see it do is delay our own arrival...day after day. As a species...we don't seem to know what's really important and can be easily manipulated to focus on trivial non issuses and lies. We are better than this!!

Peace

[Carmody]

my suggestion is to have the thread retitled to something like:

"PROOF as required of Alien encounters: building the legal case".

That should help cut down on the spurious.

[Khaleesi]

My dear Lord Sidious, my apologies if I have offended you. Of course your time is valuable, as is everyone's! As I said in my original post on this thread, Serenity is interested in this subject but is currently researching in other areas. With the wide variety of interests of the people on this forum, it is quite possible that someone has already done the research. If they have saved the info it becomes a simple matter of cut/paste data and/or links. She asked if anyone already had a compilation they would like to share. She did not ask anyone to take their valuable time and start digging for the data if they did not already have it at hand. Let's just cut to the chase here. I believe we all 'ask' for info or help on the forum, LS so yes Serenity can ask for what she wants, too. You refer to 'demeaning' comments by Serenity. I believe she specifically stated in the OP a tendency for threads to go off topic. Quite a few responses have done just that, so yes she has pointed this out. Your help came in the form of a critique of the form she requested the material. While we may all question the form that she has asked for I think I have already addressed her reasoning. So, I do thank you for the help you have previously offered, but she has her reasons and they are sound and that is the end as far as I am concerned.

[Lord Sidious]

My dear Lord Sidious, my apologies if I have offended you. Of course your time is valuable, as is everyone's! As I said in my original post on this thread, Serenity is interested in this subject but is currently researching in other areas. With the wide variety of interests of the people on this forum, it is quite possible that someone has already done the research. If they have saved the info it becomes a simple matter of cut/paste data and/or links. She asked if anyone already had a compilation they would like to share. She did not ask anyone to take their valuable time and start digging for the data if they did not already have it at hand. Let's just cut to the chase here. I believe we all 'ask' for info or help on the forum, LS so yes Serenity can ask for what she wants, too. You refer to 'demeaning' comments by Serenity. I believe she specifically stated in the OP a tendency for threads to go off topic. Quite a few responses have done just that, so yes she has pointed this out. Your help came in the form of a critique of the form she requested the material. While we may all question the form that she has asked for I think I have already addressed her reasoning. So, I do thank you for the help you have previously offered, but she has her reasons and they are sound and that is the end as far as I am concerned.

You didn't offend me, so no apology needed.

[Fundy Gemini]

Since this thread has gone somewhat off-topic - I thought I'd add a thought ...

To repost my original response in other words:

What currently exists is circumstantial evidence! All concrete indisputable evidence has been tampered with, subverted or destroyed. Any real court case would start by showing THAT connection - followed by the full body of profound circumstantial evidence that corroborates/discredits the plaintiffs case to which there is a plethora of proof (easily found)

So - the question is; can a case be made and tried on circumstantial evidence alone? Answer, yes occasionally (just consider the case of Scott Peterson as an example - rightly convicted IMHO)

However: The circumstantial burden of proof of alien interaction on earth has been made over and over and over - problem is we're left with a split jury. Therefore the case remains unresolved UNTIL concrete evidence comes to light BEFORE it is destroyed/tampered with or subverted.

THUS most of us here remain convinced/unconvinced respectively, but HOPEFUL that the irrefutable evidence will eventually be forthcoming. Until then we simply have to pick sides.

Since the topic was proof of alien existence in court alone, I won't go into the obvious inequity of the predominate religion-based prejudice.

[MiguelQ]

My argument is this.
If there are no aliens or treat, why us and many other gov agencies have the need to cover up alien craft, or crashes. What is the point about having a confidential folder for ufo sights. If there is no aliens why records and cases are confidential ... whats the point to hide such things with secrecy under national security if they dont exist?

Saying that, i would assume they have something to hide, which indicates that there is proof of something.
The secret ufo files turned public by the white house shows censured words etc that means they hide something. When intention is to be open, there is no need for a confidential category for aliens, ufos whatsoever. They are hidding something, i conclude.

[jorr lundstrom]

1977 At the island of Colares, in the Amazon delta in Brazil was the best well documented

UFO event ever. The Brazilian military studied the UFOs and aliens for 4 months.

And has disclosed a lot of the material. There is a lot of very good vids on youtube

on the event and google has several articles. If you need evidens, be my guest.

I´ll just sit on the fence giggeling at my beloved friends possesed by a phony need

for evidence for something you already know in your heart. LOL

[jorr lundstrom]

My argument is this.
If there are no aliens or treat, why us and many other gov agencies have the need to cover up alien craft, or crashes. What is the point about having a confidential folder for ufo sights. If there is no aliens why records and cases are confidential ... whats the point to hide such things with secrecy under national security if they dont exist?

Saying that, i would assume they have something to hide, which indicates that there is proof of something.
The secret ufo files turned public by the white house shows censured words etc that means they hide something. When intention is to be open, there is no need for a confidential category for aliens, ufos whatsoever. They are hidding something, i conclude.

There are two distinct kinds of hallucinations. First seeing things that doesnt exist

this first is called positive hallucination.

And second not seeing things that do exist this is called negative hallucinations. LOL

[jorr lundstrom]

Once upon the time there was a man who wrote a book on 500 pages to

prove that gnomes dont exist. Why?? Who was he trying to convince??? LOL

[Khaleesi]

Once upon the time there was a man who wrote a book on 500 pages to

prove that gnomes dont exist. Why?? Who was he trying to convince??? LOL

I see some people just can NOT help posting off topic. Or perhaps picking a fight by deliberately ignoring a request to stay on topic. ~sigh~

[Lord Sidious]

Once upon the time there was a man who wrote a book on 500 pages to

prove that gnomes dont exist. Why?? Who was he trying to convince??? LOL

I see some people just can NOT help posting off topic. Or perhaps picking a fight by deliberately ignoring a request to stay on topic. ~sigh~

Some people don't react so well to other members being authoritarian with them on a thread.
And as the pair of you are new, that isn't such a good thing either.

[Khaleesi]

Once upon the time there was a man who wrote a book on 500 pages to

prove that gnomes dont exist. Why?? Who was he trying to convince??? LOL

I see some people just can NOT help posting off topic. Or perhaps picking a fight by deliberately ignoring a request to stay on topic. ~sigh~

Some people don't react so well to other members being authoritarian with them on a thread.
And as the pair of you are new, that isn't such a good thing either.

Yes, LS I am 'new' but Serenity is not. She has been a member since March 2010 and was on the old forum before it changed. So in all, she has been a 'member' since this was a paid site several years ago. For the record, LS, I DO take offense at your assumption that we are 'newbies' based on the number of posts we have. While I have not been registered for very long, I have been quite aware of the site and the posts through Serenity and her activity on the site. Lack of posting does not denote lack of intelligence. I am 46 years old and was taught to respond politely to requests. Obviously some were not taught politeness and prefer to be rude instead.

[Lord Sidious]

Once upon the time there was a man who wrote a book on 500 pages to

prove that gnomes dont exist. Why?? Who was he trying to convince??? LOL

I see some people just can NOT help posting off topic. Or perhaps picking a fight by deliberately ignoring a request to stay on topic. ~sigh~

Some people don't react so well to other members being authoritarian with them on a thread.
And as the pair of you are new, that isn't such a good thing either.

Yes, LS I am 'new' but Serenity is not. She has been a member since March 2010 and was on the old forum before it changed. So in all, she has been a 'member' when this was a paid site several years ago. For the record, LS, I DO take offense at your assumption that we are 'newbies' based on the number of posts we have. While I have not been registered for very long, I have been quite aware of the site and the posts through Serenity and her activity on the site. Lack of posting does not denote lack of intelligence. I am 46 years old and was taught to respond politely to requests. Obviously some were not taught politeness and prefer to be rude instead.

I never insinuated anyone was lacking intelligence.
All I see is the two of you being demanding and when you don't get things your way, you start making strawman arguments.
I will leave your thread be now, I was trying to point some things out to the pair of you and you both react very similarly.

[Unified Serenity]

Asking for people to stay on topic, to not word crunch on my thread was not unreasonable. Too many threads get derailed debating on the efficacy of a given topic or reasons why someone want's to know thus and such. This forum could be a lot more interesting if more people participated. Right now there are 167 members and 1,126 guests online. As far as I can tell, it appears we have less than two dozen regular posters! That's ridiculous for a forum of this quality.

I would bet many would love to get involved, but realize they don't need the headaches nor want to word crunch with those who do this to 90% of the threads. I don't like to debate with people. I don't like to even have a conversation with people who respond from a purely emotional pov on threads dealing with factual information which it's often plain to see they have not even bothered to take the time to investigate said information before their word crunching begins. This sort behavior is negative and not helpful in having real conversations with people who do care.

This is quite enough derailing of my thread, and I request that it stops.

[Agape]

The point is not a lack of evidence ..

The meanest of mean issues is when Truth as Comodity is losing value . Moral degradation of society and no, it's not happening just in the middle of the homeless narcotized beggers on the streets of cities, it's happening among those who call themselves noble and educated people .
This society is like pack of wolves but WHY because THE TRUTH has lots its credentials.

You gave the power to competition, politics and cleverness . On the tops, the truth is missing ..


What is Court else than a place where Truth is to reclaim its right ?



No matter what has been said ......it's your human court ...


as an E.T. entity I never want to be part of that process ..




Peace to you :angel:

[Peace of Mind]

Until indisputable evidence is at hand I will continue to see this as a convenient distraction (as you can see). The government is very skilled at fooling the masses and the Alien agenda has been one of their weapons for a while now. They act like they are hiding something while their agents act like they are uncovering their secrets… when in fact nothing has ever been disclosed, has it?

The only revelation is our denial and admittance to being taken for a ride. I would love to believe in life outside of this world but seeing that there is nothing to verify it...I just can’t do it. That would be totally irresponsible of me…especially when I can easily see the consequences. It forces us to neglect our responsibilities to self and the human race. It separates us by way of mockery and seclusion. Any other off world being should be dealt with (in a friendly or non friendly manner) when they actually reveal themselves. As of now, the whole thing seems more like an agenda to further divide those that seek to unite.

If they really did exist…I’m inclined to think the governments would have shut down all outlets leaking this information (especially the Net since they own it). Instead the net is steadily increasing with this stuff and the results of the matter just can’t be denied. How can I/we not notice the neglect?

I’m not going to force myself to believe aliens even if I really want to (deep down I do). But, I have to be a realist; I owe it to my close ones and the future of the species. There are just way too many trickers out here looking to capitalize on the weak minded. I only want to be in the presence of the truth. So If I can help stop the spread of lies I will give every effort to do so simply because others actions and their inactions will eventually effect me in some way. We all need to be on the same page in order to move forward…you just can’t state a fact if there isn’t anything of substance to support it. Why do we do this to ourselves…all the time? I just don’t get it…

This is what I see...

Person 1: I had an experienced with ET
Person 2: oh, really tell me about it...
person 1: well it did blah, blah, blah, and now I'm blah, blah, blah...
person 2: wow! thats fascinating, any proof?
person 1: no, i have none but it was very real...
person 2: well, the story sounds real and very very interesting... can you elaborate more?
Person 1: sure, no problem *continues with tale*
Person 2: wow, I never thought or heard of that, you may be on to something...
ME reading in the background: what?
----

the next thing you know the topic is all over the board for the next couple of weeks and in the thoughts of person 2 (and others reading along). So, my friends... what actually transpired here? hmmm...exactly.

I write this out of full respect for my brothers and sisters, thinking perhaps they might not see what I see....

Peace

[Khaleesi]

The point is not a lack of evidence ..

The meanest of mean issues is when Truth as Comodity is losing value . Moral degradation of society and no, it's not happening just in the middle of the homeless narcotized beggers on the streets of cities, it's happening among those who call themselves noble and educated people .
This society is like pack of wolves but WHY because THE TRUTH has lots its credentials.

You gave the power to competition, politics and cleverness . On the tops, the truth is missing ..


What is Court else than a place where Truth is to reclaim its right ?



No matter what has been said ......it's your human court ...


as an E.T. entity I never want to be part of that process ..




Peace to you :angel:

You are correct that Truth as Comodity is losing value. I may eventually start a thread based on this statement and thank you in advance for the idea. Please remember, Serenity does not want this to actually be tried in court, just for the information to be compiled and set forth in that format! So if you wish to participate with some information, it will not actually 'go to trial.' LOL

[jorr lundstrom]

Khaleesi and Unified Serenity, Im sorry that went off topic. I´ll try not to do it again.:hail:

[onawah]

The whistleblower Andrew Basiago is well known and has provided lots of proof of ETs presence here and on Mars.
He is also an attorney who wants to hasten Disclosure.
Maybe someone should get in touch with him and see if he has any input to offer, or if he knows of a similar project that has made some progress along these lines.
There is a current thread with Basiago as the subject matter at:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34223-DARPA-CIA-Jump-Room-To-Mars......Andrew-Basiago-28th-Oct-2011...&p=349926#post349926

[mosquito]

This is also going to be my last post:
Serenity - you insist on saying people are derailing your thread, a lot of us came here to offer help, but your response has been either indifference or insults. I fully understand your reason for starting the thread, but you need to be clear about your requirements. Raising questions about the meaning of "proof" and even "aliens" isn't word crunching, as you call it, it's a necessary stage in defining the task and being realistic about your objectives. And as the word "proof" is an essential part of the thread title, I fail to see how discussing proof is going off-topic. Let me give you an example of off-topic -

The other day a thread was started with the title "Was Jesus a Mushroom" in which the OP presented a video (which I'm unable to view) about the use of psychoactive mushrooms. The thread wasn't about Christianity and yet YOU felt the need to complain about feeling insulted ! So it seems it's OK for you to hijack threads, but when others dare to join in your discussions, offer advice and help, you don't like it !!

[Khaleesi]

This is also going to be my last post:
Serenity - you insist on saying people are derailing your thread, a lot of us came here to offer help, but your response has been either indifference or insults. I fully understand your reason for starting the thread, but you need to be clear about your requirements. Raising questions about the meaning of "proof" and even "aliens" isn't word crunching, as you call it, it's a necessary stage in defining the task and being realistic about your objectives. And as the word "proof" is an essential part of the thread title, I fail to see how discussing proof is going off-topic. Let me give you an example of off-topic -

The other day a thread was started with the title "Was Jesus a Mushroom" in which the OP presented a video (which I'm unable to view) about the use of psychoactive mushrooms. The thread wasn't about Christianity and yet YOU felt the need to complain about feeling insulted ! So it seems it's OK for you to hijack threads, but when others dare to join in your discussions, offer advice and help, you don't like it !!

off topic and insulting ... you got a twofer! As I recall, Serenity complained about people making fun of Christianity on that thread, NOT the OP itself. She specifically stated the OP didn't offend her because it was dealing with the USE of mushrooms while the responding posts were just making fun of Christianity. How is that hijacking a thread? If you don't know the definition of proof, pick up a dictionary! THIS is word crunching. You sound like Bill Clinton saying "It depends on what the definition of is is." It's lawyerese, parsing words, splitting hairs! What is the definition of proof? OMG

[Mad Hatter]

how threads go off message...

Umm, Law of Attraction... QED :p

[OnyxKnight]

I was wondering whether I should reply to this thread or not, but seems that the basic idea the OP suggests is something I find curious, so I decided to engage.

Unified Serenity, I apologize in advance for my post - but I'm still confused about certain things. Were you just suggesting that we do this here, on the thread, in a manner as if we were in court (forum members playing the roles of jury, witnesses, prosecution and defense)? Of course, with all seriousness when dealing with that, or were you talking about opening and engaging in an ACTUAL real-life court case?

As a few people have pointed out, even if we have enough material to go with, in terms of evidence/proof, if we are to defend our case, we need to know who we are up against. So far, those people are anonymous. We can't win a case against anonymous people. The judge (no matter how well-meaning) will not even look up the case if the identity of the accused is not known.

Second, whoever is going to be involved in this case (if its an actual one), if the body of proof is as big as it should be to kill any disbelief, would mean that the people involved will be putting their life in danger, from whoever is going to present the material, to their lawyer, and anyone else involved with that side of the court case.

The reason I ask if this is to be played out here, is because a few times you mentioned this as the place to present the proof, and the subsequent debate on the matters. This thread.

Another confusing thing is whether you wanted somebody who has this proof, or data, to confirm something, and have a lawyer to help out the case (if its court case), or just a lawyer who himself/herself has the proof? Since you also insinuated that version as well.

Im not sure if its areal court case, how a lawyer can be at the same time a witness and prosecution?

I dunno the legal details of this. Those who know, please help me out with this confusion lol.

This is not meant to ridicule you US, and is not an off topic post. Just a simple request for better understanding on what we are engaging in. So I know what to discuss further.

I have (IMO) enough data and research regarding the "Ancient Astronaut" theory. That itself has enough evidence for the extraterrestrial presence on Earth, at least in our past.

I can also offer some research on various undeniable anomalies (starting from our own backyard - the Moon and Mars, continuing with the rest of the Solar System, and beyond in distance) that are confirmation of present-day extraterrestrial activity, not only in space in general, but in proximity to Earth as well. Well, confirmation if one has enough open mind, and enough understanding of technical details regarding the matters discussed.

I'm asking for clarification because I'm not a lawyer, nor am I familiar with the legal system at all. But I can offer the above mentioned for this case.

[OnyxKnight]

What would a lawyer say if you wanted proof of God. Where is the proof. Majority of the population doesn't need proof, yet God dictates what they do every Sunday morning of their life. When it comes to proof, its a very sticky and controversial subject for sure.

Well, the thing is, between the religious notion of God and ETs, only the latter actually exists, and is possible to prove.


The proof we have been show to date, is meteorites with living organisms... this is proof of alien life in space... nasa finding 20 or was it 60 earth like planets recently... do you need more?

This is another confusion I have. Are we building a case for extraterrestrial intelligence present on Earth today, or just extraterrestrial life in general? Even microbial form?


Greetings UnifiedSerenity
Might be better to use logic and scientific evaluations... or even tactics of debate...rather than the law...IMO juris prudence is a far cry from truth or rightiousness (sp)

I can go Science noozey about this topic ....

[Buck]

Really U/s - You are concerned about participation on this forum?
You are wondering how we can encourage more members to participate?
You think this forum would be a lot more interesting if more people joined in?

Gee, I wonder why no one wants to jump in and play with you.

Well, since you ASKED the question, as one of the as one of the voices on here who probably does not even rate to be included in the "two dozen souls who dare to speak out loud", I can offer you that from my perspective the tone of this thread, and your own energy here, is off the charts antagonistic. You clearly have difficulty respecting that people are offering you help and responding to your initial post in a sincere manner. Notice that I did not say I FEEL you are having difficulty. That would be patronizing, because it is my conviction, based on the evidence of your own words and reactions as recorded in the thread that you are unable to fully comprehend what is being offered here.

You say things like you don't want to "even have a conversation with people who respond from a purely emotional pov". Oh, sorry, the brave representatives of the active "two dozen" who have responded to you dared to imagine it was appropriate to speak from their own truthful place. Just state the facts and nothing but the facts, about an absurd topic about things that defy measure or documentation. uh huh.

Your response to the gift of our attention (all of us here at Avalon) is to go toe to toe with anyone who dares to question the foundational premise of your thread.

What you DID bring was the introduction of a little WWF into our little corner of the internet.[] Now the drama can ratchet up another few notches too, your partner can sweep into the fray, laying waste to anyone who has the gall to question you or your profoundly serious mission.

And what is this sacred work? NONE of our concern, NONE. But when we persist with our nosy questions, you say it is to gather factual evidence about a topic that exists at the very fringes of our consensual reality.

God help anyone who dares to question your mission.

[Anchor]

Presenting a compelling case and proof are different things.

That is why proof has to meet a certain standard. The courts set various standards in various contexts (and states and countries). Thus proof in one court is not always proof in another.

ALSO Carmody hit the nail very squarely on the head earlier. For things that have no measurable standard, things that will change paradigms, proof is not the issue.

You can try, and you can polish your presentation until its the best it can be, but you still wont satisfy everyone.

Your not allowed to.

There are freewill dynamics to this that trump the powers of logic and linguistic skill.

If you feel the need, please do report this post and let the moderators decide if its off topic or not.

[OnyxKnight]

I have yet to see any proof/evidence of ET’s existing.

Trillions of galaxies is not enough proof for you?


I only see people who either can’t describe what they experience or are attempting to brainwash others with lies.

When people stay off from attempts at proving anything to anyone, when it comes to alien contact, they are accused of being "shady".

When the same said people also try their best to describe what they saw or experienced, and they do a good job at it, they are also accused of being "too detailed and data-abundant" to be taken seriously and as factual. In other words, too good to be true.

How about you naysayers make up your mind on what characteristics of testimony are favorable to be considered more factual than others, hm?


You would be a fool to believe in such things when there is absolutely no evidence of it.

No evidence for you personally. Don't speak in general terms.


Why do so...and then use unproven facts you may have learned from the enemy to support your (claimed) truths? Humans are in a bad situation now because they believe in those they can’t trust. I think most of the ET hype is cleverly done by agents looking to start this project blue beam scenario as soon as possible…but people like me have always been a thorn in their side. I refuse to give away my power to fiction. I refuse to let the masses get used without a fight. Everything real has some form of validity….so where is it? The reason subjects like this exist in the mind is due to media and systematic conditioning. Get the masses to ponder on the ideas of unseen/unproven beings will weaken them by keeping them pre-occupied with (lack of a better word, atm) nonsense.

Believing in the existence of alien life or even alien visits to our planet, either in the past , present or future, is not fiction, my dear confused fellow, its a matter of pure logic.

Ever since humanity has had a pair of eyes and the ability to look up the sky and the stars, the same questions were present back then as well. The 'ET Hype' has risen in intensity as the visits started to become more overt, and as our understanding of the universe became better.

And it may be nonsense for you, and that's perfectly fine, but let the masses decide for themselves on this issue. You say you don't like when views are forced down upon you. So why would you force your views down upon the masses?

What makes you more right than the next person?


I would never ask someone to believe something I can’t explain or prove to be true. "Why would anyone do this?" is a question EVERYONE should be asking. A very good answer awaits...

Can you explain or prove how ETs do not exist, or they have never been here?

Usage of the "lack of evidence to the contrary" argument is not proof. You will have to take another approach.

And why would YOU do this? Convince people this is just a fam (the whole ET topic)?


Hears my question...

I sure would like to know exactly what any of the Alien talk here and/or abroad has done for us?

All I ever see it do is delay our own arrival...day after day. As a species...we don't seem to know what's really important and can be easily manipulated to focus on trivial non issuses and lies. We are better than this!!

Peace

Yes, this is not the most important topic presently to be discussed or dealt with. But are we doing something about the topics that are more serious?

My question to you is - what has discussion of more pressing matters done for us?

Discussing them is not solving them or dealing with them in real life now, is it?

Besides, this is one of the most important matters in history (if it weren't for other problems) that humanity will ever deal with. You don't share the same enthusiasm, nor do you share the same views, and as I said, that's perfectly fine. But it seems the majority of the world does see them as important, and logically so.

Things change when official contact with another extraterrestrial species is established. Beings from an entirely different world, that may have solutions for the problems we have faced, and we, having solutions to the problems they have faced, or are facing. An entire myriad of cultures exchanging information and experience.

Understanding how they came to be will shed light on how we came to be as a species too. Maybe confirm or rewrite the theories of origins of life and evolution.


Until indisputable evidence is at hand I will continue to see this as a convenient distraction (as you can see). The government is very skilled at fooling the masses and the Alien agenda has been one of their weapons for a while now. They act like they are hiding something while their agents act like they are uncovering their secrets… when in fact nothing has ever been disclosed, has it?

Their agenda has nothing to do with actual aliens. The only one fooled here is you, thinking that aliens are an inventions of the PTB to more easily amuse the masses with "nonsense".


If they really did exist…I’m inclined to think the governments would have shut down all outlets leaking this information (especially the Net since they own it). Instead the net is steadily increasing with this stuff and the results of the matter just can’t be denied. How can I/we not notice the neglect?

Because they know that if they shut it down, the present-day 'Occupy' movement will look like a breeze compared with the storm that will arise globally with people protesting to the killing of the internet.

Even if they did that in the early 90s, the outcome would have been dire. For them.

Imagine if they did that today. Taking away something that many generations have grown up with their entire life. Many, many people actually base their businesses online, and are dependent on the net. Take away the net, and you have taken a lot of jobs away in the time of an economic crisis.

What will they offer as an explanation for the termination of the internet? There's nothing that they can say that justifies that action.

If they eliminate particular websites dealing solely with information about this topic, then it would be even more clear as to who and why is doing it.

This why the net is as intact as it is possible to be.


But, I have to be a realist;

Then be one and find your evidence by doing a simple math alone, by looking at the sky above you.

[ktlight]

All right....I will take on the task of presenting proof of alien existence, as if I was presenting this case to a court of law. I'll use my best trial skills to present my side of this issue. The original topic meandered off a little bit, I guess. So, Unified Serenity, I will try the case, like they did in that famous movie, "Inherit The Wind", where I will present evidence of alien existence. Of course, there will always be an "adversary", since I have no physical evidence that I can bring to you, but I'm guessing some of our fellow members will have opposing views that will make this interesting.

This reminds me of something my law partner, Ed, used to do on a TV show, in the late 1980's. It was called "The Morton Downey, Jr Show" and Mort would have people on who had opposing points of views and they would discuss them. Sometimes it got very heated and once there was a physical altercation between Al Sharpton and another guest. My partner was told he HAD to be "anti-death penalty" and this particular episode was being filmed live in Philadelphia. There was about 400 people in the audience when they taped and they were almost all "pro-death penalty". The police had to be called to take us back to the hotel, because we would not have made it back alive. So, I'm happy I'm presenting this case on the internet with just my computer in the room.;)

Goldie, I look forward to what you will present. It will probably be great if you start out with a new thread possibly called something along the line of "Alien Encounters -legal presentation".

[GCS1103]

All right....I will take on the task of presenting proof of alien existence, as if I was presenting this case to a court of law. I'll use my best trial skills to present my side of this issue. The original topic meandered off a little bit, I guess. So, Unified Serenity, I will try the case, like they did in that famous movie, "Inherit The Wind", where I will present evidence of alien existence. Of course, there will always be an "adversary", since I have no physical evidence that I can bring to you, but I'm guessing some of our fellow members will have opposing views that will make this interesting.

This reminds me of something my law partner, Ed, used to do on a TV show, in the late 1980's. It was called "The Morton Downey, Jr Show" and Mort would have people on who had opposing points of views and they would discuss them. Sometimes it got very heated and once there was a physical altercation between Al Sharpton and another guest. My partner was told he HAD to be "anti-death penalty" and this particular episode was being filmed live in Philadelphia. There was about 400 people in the audience when they taped and they were almost all "pro-death penalty". The police had to be called to take us back to the hotel, because we would not have made it back alive. So, I'm happy I'm presenting this case on the internet with just my computer in the room.;)

Goldie, I look forward to what you will present. It will probably be great if you start out with a new thread possibly called something along the line of "Alien Encounters -legal presentation".

ktlight- that's a good idea. I could start by having the "Judge" summarize the case for the jury (avalon) and then have opening arguments next. Maybe Lord Sid could be the opposing side?:fencing:

[Lord Sidious]

Goldie, I look forward to what you will present. It will probably be great if you start out with a new thread possibly called something along the line of "Alien Encounters -legal presentation".

ktlight- that's a good idea. I could start by having the "Judge" summarize the case for the jury (avalon) and then have opening arguments next. Maybe Lord Sid could be the opposing side?:fencing:

Me?
Well, thanks, but I decided to bow out.

[OnyxKnight]

Maybe Lord Sid could be the opposing side?:fencing:

Only Peace of Mind seems to portray the opposing side of this argument. Maybe he should be considered that role?

[Peace of Mind]

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
I have yet to see any proof/evidence of ET’s existing.

Trillions of galaxies is not enough proof for you?

Of coarse this would be logical when using knowledge obtained in controlled learning institutions, but have you actually travel outside of the planet yourself? How do you know what’s out there? The facts you’re basing all this on comes from the very people we don’t trust. Do you trust what NASA says? I don’t because they are way to secretive…they don’t even allow public tours and poorly fudge their public access material...when they'e supposedly so advance. It seems like they are baiting us.

You was taught that most of the lights you see in the skies come from stars, in addition, their illuminations took anywhere from minutes (our sun) to thousands of years ago (galaxies). We can’t even access the full spectrum of light and most of what we see from the infrared/gamma and beyond requires instrumentation. Do you state your assumptions on this? So, how do we determine anything such as time, distance, or what planets actually look like in other star systems when most of our info comes from telescopes… and probes (so they say)?

Maybe you can explain to me why the stars aren’t seen as a blur in the sky…because according to our knowledge… the planet spins very fast…and where would you base the reference points for your measurements? If space is said to be infinite how do you measure anything where there isn’t a reference point and by using light from a star that is probably long extinct? Can we accurately determine where point A and Point B is? Any data obtained in this fashion is highly probable to have flaws…not to mention growing interest in dark matter and dark energy…we’re still figuring out how and why it distorts light. For all we know, we probably can time travel as soon as we leave Earth’s atmosphere. In these times…I don’t expect anyone to admit that (true or not). All of this knowledge comes from controlled learning institutions...the same institutions currently debating over rewriting certain aspects of physics and mathematics.

So, saying all of that…my hesitance in believing such subject matter requires experience. This is nothing disrespectful, just the obvious that should always be expected. It’s hard for me to believe in what was taught to us about the cosmos…. not until I’m able to fly in a spaceship.

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
I only see people who either can’t describe what they experience or are attempting to brainwash others with lies.

When people stay off from attempts at proving anything to anyone, when it comes to alien contact, they are accused of being "shady". Why talk about such things you know will be questioned?

IMO, if you feel free to talk about such a subject you should be prepared to offer something of substance, or you risk the chance of being looked at as either an attention seeker and/or a deceiver. Some do take more offense to unproven facts then those facing ridicule. How can anyone be upset if what they speak is true?

When the same said people also try their best to describe what they saw or experienced, and they do a good job at it, they are also accused of being "too detailed and data-abundant" to be taken seriously and as factual. In other words, too good to be true.

This is what I’m talking about. What’s the point of putting yourself thru that. Why do you expect people to believe something like this? Maybe they will if they shared the same ideas about “Space”. Get me…

How about you naysayers make up your mind on what characteristics of testimony are favorable to be considered more factual than others, hm?

I’m not so much of a naysayer, just don’t like playing the fool. If the universe is so vast… I find it very strange that “dosayers” can’t even provide one slither of physical proof/evidence. It’s been said that there are more galaxies in the universe then there are grains of sand on this planet. If true, you would think there is other life out there……..but none of it has made any presence here. I find this very strange. No disrespect, but I really do feel like all the Alien hype is either a distraction and/or a hugh deception to divide and conquer the masses thru alien false flags by baiting them with tidbits here and there.

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
You would be a fool to believe in such things when there is absolutely no evidence of it.

No evidence for you personally. Don't speak in general terms.

If you are talking about sightings and abductions…are you so sure it wasn’t the government performing wicked deeds/tests on people... and by using the front of aliens they’ll be able to get away with it? have the thought of preparing the masses for invasion ever crossed your mind?


Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
Why do so...and then use unproven facts you may have learned from the enemy to support your (claimed) truths? Humans are in a bad situation now because they believe in those they can’t trust. I think most of the ET hype is cleverly done by agents looking to start this project blue beam scenario as soon as possible…but people like me have always been a thorn in their side. I refuse to give away my power to fiction. I refuse to let the masses get used without a fight. Everything real has some form of validity….so where is it? The reason subjects like this exist in the mind is due to media and systematic conditioning. Get the masses to ponder on the ideas of unseen/unproven beings will weaken them by keeping them pre-occupied with (lack of a better word, atm) nonsense.

Believing in the existence of alien life or even alien visits to our planet, either in the past , present or future, is not fiction, my dear confused fellow, its a matter of pure logic.

Is it true logic, is it beliefs or myths? How do YOU determine without self confirmation? Where do you get your facts from… and where do they get their facts from…. Follow the trail and See what I See…

Ever since humanity has had a pair of eyes and the ability to look up the sky and the stars, the same questions were present back then as well. The 'ET Hype' has risen in intensity as the visits started to become more overt, and as our understanding of the universe became better.

And we still are learning...or still being dumb down...either way the subject matter is grander than the cosmos itself....thats why I feel it should be discuss responsibly. Not as if we actually know whats going on. As of now, it's a distraction until proven other wise.

And it may be nonsense for you, and that's perfectly fine, but let the masses decide for themselves on this issue. You say you don't like when views are forced down upon you. So why would you force your views down upon the masses?

I’m not forcing views, just expanding the perspective.

What makes you more right than the next person?

Finding “what’s right” is the sole point I’m making. Check my above text for your other answers. I’m not the one confused my friend…I’m extremely focused.

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
I would never ask someone to believe something I can’t explain or prove to be true. "Why would anyone do this?" is a question EVERYONE should be asking. A very good answer awaits...

Can you explain or prove how ETs do not exist, or they have never been here?

All the so called facts I’ve seen came off of the “Idiot Box”/TV, controlled schooling, scholars of controlled schools, and the internet. I’m simply stating if I don’t have first hand knowledge/experience and if no one else can provide evidence of their own… I’m not going to trust it. To expect anyone to do that you may not think very highly of their wit. The lack of facts and the steady saturation of indefinable facts suggests to me that our ideas of space is inaccurate. The world is corrupt now because too many trusted the wrong people...and we probably still are. This is why I question everything.


Usage of the "lack of evidence to the contrary" argument is not proof. You will have to take another approach.

So what approach do you suggest? I've always found the upfront and genuine approach to be the best...

And why would YOU do this? Convince people this is just a fam (the whole ET topic)?

Because the wicked governments can gain total control through disarming and depopulating….How? Simply by creating an entity/s that is supposedly stronger than us. This will create fear and make people give more power to the crooked system. This is a perfect way for them to destroy the economy without accountability. Yeah I see all the alien hype, I smell a set up too.

My intention is to assist people in concentrating on the real issues at hand, not the distractions. I don’t see anything in any of the alien talk benefiting mankind, do you? If so… what?

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
Hears my question...

I sure would like to know exactly what any of the Alien talk here and/or abroad has done for us?

All I ever see it do is delay our own arrival...day after day. As a species...we don't seem to know what's really important and can be easily manipulated to focus on trivial non issuses and lies. We are better than this!!

Yes, this is not the most important topic presently to be discussed or dealt with. But are we doing something about the topics that are more serious?

My question to you is - what has discussion of more pressing matters done for us?

They have done a lot. Not only is word of mouth very effective…the good ideas are flowing. Plus, there is plenty of inspiration from seeing others making attempts…this goes a long way.

Discussing them is not solving them or dealing with them in real life now, is it?

I beg to differ. I’ve seen many people waking up over the last couple of years, even formed a few links to further strengthen the cause. Do you find it more beneficial to discuss the unproven/aliens in a time like this? If so…Why?

Besides, this is one of the most important matters in history (if it weren't for other problems) that humanity will ever deal with. You don't share the same enthusiasm, nor do you share the same views, and as I said, that's perfectly fine. But it seems the majority of the world does see them as important, and logically so.

This is what bothers me. The majority doesn’t consider that they could be taking for a ride. The majority doesn’t see their logic to be part of the conditioning. Where do we get our info from? Why are we being selective when digesting any of the data giving to us by TPTB? If you reject some you should be willing to reject it all…the undeniable truth is vital to our existence.

Things change when official contact with another extraterrestrial species is established. Beings from an entirely different world, that may have solutions for the problems we have faced, and we, having solutions to the problems they have faced, or are facing. An entire myriad of cultures exchanging information and experience.

That sounds wonderful, truly….but I’m sure you’re getting my point by now, hopefully.

Besides, even more reason why we should be focusing more on our own species… first impressions hold a lot of weight. Why sit around waiting, when we can be planning on how to roll out the welcome mat? If they do come… what will they think about us? Will they see us as a savage bunch of parasites…or, a bunch of frighten beings waiting for the unknown to come and save them from a handful of beings cowardly hiding on their own planet? The irony is there… Hopefully, ET has a sense of humor we can relate to…

Understanding how they came to be will shed light on how we came to be as a species too. Maybe confirm or rewrite the theories of origins of life and evolution.

Yes, but first we need to verify their existence and make sure they are not some hologram and/or sophisticated puppets/robots made by our governments.

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
Until indisputable evidence is at hand I will continue to see this as a convenient distraction (as you can see). The government is very skilled at fooling the masses and the Alien agenda has been one of their weapons for a while now. They act like they are hiding something while their agents act like they are uncovering their secrets… when in fact nothing has ever been disclosed, has it?

Their agenda has nothing to do with actual aliens. The only one fooled here is you, thinking that aliens are an inventions of the PTB to more easily amuse the masses with "nonsense".

You’re starting to sound like someone with the proof/evidence I’ve been looking for. Care to share? I no longer want to be fooled…

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
If they really did exist…I’m inclined to think the governments would have shut down all outlets leaking this information (especially the Net since they own it). Instead the net is steadily increasing with this stuff and the results of the matter just can’t be denied. How can I/we not notice the neglect?

Because they know that if they shut it down, the present-day 'Occupy' movement will look like a breeze compared with the storm that will arise globally with people protesting to the killing of the internet.

Even if they did that in the early 90s, the outcome would have been dire. For them.

Imagine if they did that today. Taking away something that many generations have grown up with their entire life. Many, many people actually base their businesses online, and are dependent on the net. Take away the net, and you have taken a lot of jobs away in the time of an economic crisis.

What will they offer as an explanation for the termination of the internet? There's nothing that they can say that justifies that action.

If they eliminate particular websites dealing solely with information about this topic, then it would be even more clear as to who and why is doing it.

This why the net is as intact as it is possible to be.

And not once did it cross your mind that this could be exactly what they want, after all…there still isn’t any proof just hearsay, am I right? The stuff propaganda is made from…and distraction commence…
War tactics has advance far beyond blades, bullets and bombs.

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)

But, I have to be a realist;

Then be one and find your evidence by doing a simple math alone, by looking at the sky above you.

I looked up and nothing happen…what do you see, and are you sure of what you see? Where’s your proof of what you see? I already know what the school curriculums and conspiracy theorist have to say. No need to bring them into this…we admitted our lack of trust for them plenty times on this board…it’s time for the real deal to be revealed. where is it?


Maybe Lord Sid could be the opposing side?
Only Peace of Mind seems to portray the opposing side of this argument. Maybe he should be considered that role?

Every single post of mines on this forum exhibits my passion for the advancement of our species. There is nothing I’ve written here you should feel threatened by… or assume to be deceitful. Yet, you accuse me of being on the opposing side. Hmmm…what side are you pulling for?

My ideas of space are inconclusive… as should be everyone’s. My optimism for the people here is very strong. I’ll rather see them wasting their energy on matters we already know exist. Of coarse this is not my decision, I'm just pointing out the obvious...

Peace

[Dennis Jonathan]

All right....I will take on the task of presenting proof of alien existence, as if I was presenting this case to a court of law. I'll use my best trial skills to present my side of this issue. The original topic meandered off a little bit, I guess. So, Unified Serenity, I will try the case, like they did in that famous movie, "Inherit The Wind", where I will present evidence of alien existence. Of course, there will always be an "adversary", since I have no physical evidence that I can bring to you, but I'm guessing some of our fellow members will have opposing views that will make this interesting.

This reminds me of something my law partner, Ed, used to do on a TV show, in the late 1980's. It was called "The Morton Downey, Jr Show" and Mort would have people on who had opposing points of views and they would discuss them. Sometimes it got very heated and once there was a physical altercation between Al Sharpton and another guest. My partner was told he HAD to be "anti-death penalty" and this particular episode was being filmed live in Philadelphia. There was about 400 people in the audience when they taped and they were almost all "pro-death penalty". The police had to be called to take us back to the hotel, because we would not have made it back alive. So, I'm happy I'm presenting this case on the internet with just my computer in the room.;)

If you are looking for source documents and detailed historical reference, I would spend some time on Richard Dolan's website. The disclosure project has some strong testimony as well, however it also has some that are easy to dismiss.

Richard Dolan's site: www.keyholepublishing.com
Disclosure project: disclosureproject.org

Lastly, in regard to the propensity for topic derailment:

The title of a thread has a large impact on the readers it attracts. With your title, I am not surprised that you attracted some of the more philosophical posters. "Need qualified legal advice for proof of ET existence trial" or something along those lines would have been more clear.

[Unified Serenity]

I have edited the original post to an updated thread title and this edit message:

EDIT NOTE: Several have said I should change the title of the thread because some are not clear on the style of thread I am looking for, so I have changed the thread title from "Proof as required of Alien encounters" to "Seeking a thread in Legal style on Proof from evidence of Alien Existence". This is not a common discussion thread like most are used to. GCS has already taken up the cause and is a lawyer. I am looking forward to what she puts together as proof, and she may need some help gathering data, so if you already have data compiled just pm her and see what happens. I am not saying she needs any help, but who knows. This is not to say GCS is the only one who can take up this task. Lawyers are trained in how to present a case based on evidence as they see it, and I would like to see a case as it were presented to us the reader aka jury to read and ponder, discuss etc after the case is presented. So, if you are a data gathering type on the UFO subject, and don't want to actually put together the case so to speak but someone else wants to work on the case and is not the holder of the "proof or evidence" then maybe this is a chance at collaboration. I am working on different things. I want to say that I am not a UFO doubter, I just have never seen the information presented in such a way and believe it would be a good read. I wish I had posted this first before all the bantering got started. I hope we can make something positive out of this and that when GCS is ready that she makes a new thread for all to enjoy.

[Ellisa]

Some of the confusion here is because no definition has been made of the terms of the question.

What is meant by evidence of alien existence? Is 'evidence' some trace of microbes in a meteorite, or will only humanoid ETs do? Similarly do these aliens appear in spaceships, ie are UFOs real? Yes in a way they are. Until an explanation is found of unusual objects flying around, they are indeed UFOs, that is flying objects that are unidentified as yet. And there are, of course, some of them that are never explained. There's only just so many weather balloons floating around.

The existence of aliens is a matter of belief at the moment. There is no solid evidence for their existence that could be produced in a court. Some anecdotal and circumstantial evidence exists, but it is without legally recognised proof. Just as we cannot prove the existence of god (or indeed the non-existence of god) so we (at the moment) cannot prove the existence of aliens. In my view we will never prove god's existence, but I think one day we will find out if we humans are 'alone' or live as part of the teeming community of planets that logic indicates should exist.

I think it is true to say that the sort of alien most of us would imagine we are discussing would be an ET-ish entity rather than a microbe, and I do not think that there is yet any proof of the former, sadly! Please would someone correct me! And also possibly define "alien". At the moment there is a lot of baggage attached to the term.

[Unified Serenity]

Ellisa,

I think there is available scientific evidence which may or may not be acceptable for some. There are thousands of radar images, video images from MIR and the shuttle, carved images from eons ago, strange energy signatures, and of course our famous Roswell information which became a probable cover-up among just a few things. I am looking forward to what will be presented, and think that's really all I asked for in my OP. Then we can play jury and debate the evidence.

Basically, I am waiting on the presentation and think it will be interesting.

[Peace of Mind]

If my posts was seen as off topic, pardon me. =)

Good luck looking into the legalities…truly. It'll be interesting to see what can be done. However, I’m just a bit weary of blind justice…. as that’s just what it is.
I/we/all just want truth, that’s all it’s ever been. Bewilderment will only die a slow death when beating it around the bush.

Since I bumped this topic to apologize.... May I also make a suggestion or add on to the OP/idea? Maybe linking this topic with another one that displays the content of what’s deemed official evidence/proof (stories, pictures, vids, sounds, science, etc…)? And have both stickied.

...would love to do it myself but I don't have the time to support it (bumping it), nor boast anything I can’t shed light on myself/or debunk. I'm thinking such a topic along with this one will help in various ways...

Again, pardon me.

this place just sucks you in, have you reading topics for 7 pages filled with enthusiasm…ending with the realization of a hoax…and now this one ... then off to the next one, and so on…


Peace

[Unified Serenity]

I want to reiterate that I do not, never have, and don't intend this to be an actual law suit to prove the existence of Aliens. I am simply asking for the known evidence to be presented as "proof" as best as can be presented as proof in the style a lawyer would present a case for a jury to decide. Once it is presented we can have all kinds of discussions on said evidence. I am very thankful that GCS has taken up the task, and I look forward to seeing what she presents when she is ready. I don't know when she will be ready to do so, but when she is ready it should be in a new thread imho and I think it will be quite interesting to read. Again, anyone else who wants to give it a go, please feel free to do so.

[mosquito]

Thanks for amending the title U.S., and I'd like to say that I really admire you for being accountable for your thread and the direction it takes, very laudable. Now we can move forward !

[GCS1103]

All right....I will take on the task of presenting proof of alien existence, as if I was presenting this case to a court of law. I'll use my best trial skills to present my side of this issue. The original topic meandered off a little bit, I guess. So, Unified Serenity, I will try the case, like they did in that famous movie, "Inherit The Wind", where I will present evidence of alien existence. Of course, there will always be an "adversary", since I have no physical evidence that I can bring to you, but I'm guessing some of our fellow members will have opposing views that will make this interesting.

This reminds me of something my law partner, Ed, used to do on a TV show, in the late 1980's. It was called "The Morton Downey, Jr Show" and Mort would have people on who had opposing points of views and they would discuss them. Sometimes it got very heated and once there was a physical altercation between Al Sharpton and another guest. My partner was told he HAD to be "anti-death penalty" and this particular episode was being filmed live in Philadelphia. There was about 400 people in the audience when they taped and they were almost all "pro-death penalty". The police had to be called to take us back to the hotel, because we would not have made it back alive. So, I'm happy I'm presenting this case on the internet with just my computer in the room.;)

If you are looking for source documents and detailed historical reference, I would spend some time on Richard Dolan's website. The disclosure project has some strong testimony as well, however it also has some that are easy to dismiss.

Richard Dolan's site: www.keyholepublishing.com
Disclosure project: disclosureproject.org

Lastly, in regard to the propensity for topic derailment:

The title of a thread has a large impact on the readers it attracts. With your title, I am not surprised that you attracted some of the more philosophical posters. "Need qualified legal advice for proof of ET existence trial" or something along those lines would have been more clear.

I will start with Rich Dolan (whose books I have read) and a few others that I find very credible. I don't think we can "prove" anything, but I am asked to only present one side of the argument, which I will do. This is similar to the argument for evolution- can anyone "prove" that we evolved from fish, etc.? We can only make our case for one side of the issue. If anyone would like to supplement what I am going to write, or have any books you can point me to (like Rich Dolan), please feel free to send me a PM. I might add a little fun to the presentation by doing an interview of someone who is credible in this field. I will have to ask Paul if I have his permission to interview Bob Dean, or someone along those lines, and post the interview here. Any suggestions as to anyone else for me to interview would be much appreciated.

Goldie

[Dennis Jonathan]

Another great source is Henrick Palmgren (spelling?) from Red Ice Radio.

I have great respect for him, and believe he is one of alternative medias most insightful interviewers.

His website - www.redicecreations.com has archives of hundreds of interviews with many accomplished researchers, experts and experiencers.

I wish I could be more specific, but if you are digging for sources, his website is a treasure trove of quality research.

[Unified Serenity]

All right....I will take on the task of presenting proof of alien existence, as if I was presenting this case to a court of law. I'll use my best trial skills to present my side of this issue. The original topic meandered off a little bit, I guess. So, Unified Serenity, I will try the case, like they did in that famous movie, "Inherit The Wind", where I will present evidence of alien existence. Of course, there will always be an "adversary", since I have no physical evidence that I can bring to you, but I'm guessing some of our fellow members will have opposing views that will make this interesting.

This reminds me of something my law partner, Ed, used to do on a TV show, in the late 1980's. It was called "The Morton Downey, Jr Show" and Mort would have people on who had opposing points of views and they would discuss them. Sometimes it got very heated and once there was a physical altercation between Al Sharpton and another guest. My partner was told he HAD to be "anti-death penalty" and this particular episode was being filmed live in Philadelphia. There was about 400 people in the audience when they taped and they were almost all "pro-death penalty". The police had to be called to take us back to the hotel, because we would not have made it back alive. So, I'm happy I'm presenting this case on the internet with just my computer in the room.;)

If you are looking for source documents and detailed historical reference, I would spend some time on Richard Dolan's website. The disclosure project has some strong testimony as well, however it also has some that are easy to dismiss.

Richard Dolan's site: www.keyholepublishing.com
Disclosure project: disclosureproject.org

Lastly, in regard to the propensity for topic derailment:

The title of a thread has a large impact on the readers it attracts. With your title, I am not surprised that you attracted some of the more philosophical posters. "Need qualified legal advice for proof of ET existence trial" or something along those lines would have been more clear.

I will start with Rich Dolan (whose books I have read) and a few others that I find very credible. I don't think we can "prove" anything, but I am asked to only present one side of the argument, which I will do. This is similar to the argument for evolution- can anyone "prove" that we evolved from fish, etc.? We can only make our case for one side of the issue. If anyone would like to supplement what I am going to write, or have any books you can point me to (like Rich Dolan), please feel free to send me a PM. I might add a little fun to the presentation by doing an interview of someone who is credible in this field. I will have to ask Paul if I have his permission to interview Bob Dean, or someone along those lines, and post the interview here. Any suggestions as to anyone else for me to interview would be much appreciated.

Goldie

Excellent ideas and plans Goldie! I am really looking forward to reading what you put together. It looks like my title of the thread is the same still. If a moderator is reading this can you change it as I indicated that I thought I had on post 92? Thanks.

[Sidney]

U/S.... Just curious, Have you seen the Disclosure Project. You can easily access it via youtube. Its a good watch.

[Unified Serenity]

U/S.... Just curious, Have you seen the Disclosure Project. You can easily access it via youtube. Its a good watch.

Yes, I have watched it as well as countless other vids and read many accounts. I have stated this several times, but I guess it needs to be said again regarding my pov on the subject. I am not a ufo / alien doubter. I am simply interested in seeing the "evidence" presented in a particular style which I believe would be interesting to read. I don't think the disclosure project does this although it is an excellent work in an of itself.

[Kindred]

While slightly 'off topic', but not really - are you familiar with the Serpo.org (project serpo?). One of Bill's 'first projects'... great reading.

[Agape]

yxZZ6qDmX6Y

So and then ...we are here ..how does anyone prove he speaks truth unless you watch them over long time ?

How many things do you know already ..and how many number of times , infinite times more are there things you don't know yet ..
in all directions.

How do you know what lies beyond the border of your current knowing ?


Is that yes or no , behind and beyond that imaginary border ?


But is there any border at all ?


In the net of neural connections, how many intelligent assumptions can you make within one second ?

Infinite .

How many of them die out, how many have you forgotten .


What is the difference between YOU and I ?





:yo:

[Fundy Gemini]

well..

I think the presentation is already together and more - just two more days!

screening 11.11.11

OibqdwHyZxk

http://thrivemovement.com/

[Unified Serenity]

While slightly 'off topic', but not really - are you familiar with the Serpo.org (project serpo?). One of Bill's 'first projects'... great reading.

No, I am not familiar, let me go look it up in a bit, thanks!

[1derer]

U/S.... Just curious, Have you seen the Disclosure Project. You can easily access it via youtube. Its a good watch.

I have stated this several times, but I guess it needs to be said again regarding my pov on the subject. I am not a ufo / alien doubter. I am simply interested in seeing the "evidence" presented in a particular style which I believe would be interesting to read. I don't think the disclosure project does this although it is an excellent work in an of itself.


I would start with reviewing the recently disclosure documents from world governments across the world, then get sworn testimonials from individuals and respected professionals. In addition I would write Freedom of Information requests to various sources, but I do not think that there is a legal position in this area as any proof would have been suppressed as it has been for at least 60 years, if not thousands!

Good luck in your endeavours and I would love to see what has been collated as a result.

:popcorn:

forgot to add that I suppose some form of visual reference might be important, both in terms of testimony and evidence, though this is a grey area!

Here is a good example of evidence, and a great option for a testimonial...

[161803398]

Lawyers don't actually prove things in a scientific way. They deal with resolution of conflicts; interpretation of statutes; raising doubts as to guilt or credibility; challenges to legislation. Sometimes they do good work in areas of social justice and environmental issues. But I think asking a lawyer to prove a scientific question...well it reminds me of when some lawyer friends of mine first got a computer in their office and some technician came over to show them how to operate it. They all watched the demo and when he left they realized they didn't know how to turn it on. I don't think you are going to get a lawyer to do more than make a list of expert witnesses. Why not just go straight to the experts and forget the lawyers.

[NeverMind]

To PROVE, beyond a reasonable doubt, that there have been (numerous) UFO -- meaning unidentified flying objects -- would be very easy. In fact, proving the opposite should be next to impossible.

To PROVE, beyond a reasonable doubt, that any of them were "alien" (which is what you specified), meaning extra-terrestrial in origin.... that would be impossible, in my opinion.