The dangers of seeing everything as an illusion.

[Tony]

The dangers of seeing everything as an illusion.

Though every thing is illusory, meaning they have no true existence, because they are impermanent, does not mean that they do not exists of a relative level.

The danger lies in misunderstanding the different between the two truth.
Relative truth is the seeming reality we live in.
Absolute truth is the Empty nature of self and all phenomena...
...and that they have to be seen as a unity. This is a very subtle business.

The danger is arriving at Nihilism. On the forum there are many capacities, understandings and experiences. Nihilism can lead to pointlessness, depression and even suicide.

The opposite to Nihilism is Eternalism, meaning things go on forever and that there is no Absolute truth. The union of these two truth is the middle way.

Phrases are banded about, and this only leads to more 'entertaining' confusion.

There is a sort of idea going around that WE are all beyond this, WE are one with the universe.....no WE are not! Not yet.

Merely repeating words does not make it so. To repeat, this a misdirection to stop people looking for themselves. Everything has to be genuinely taken apart and investigated, in an impartial way.

Just saying everything is an illusion can mess with people's minds. You may say, “Well, it's up to others to decide!” If you think that, you are negating any responsibility on your part.

This is what discipline is all about.

All the best,
Tony

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Aaaaaargh! Blast!
Does that mean I have to do :washing: again today?
I was hoping the wash baskets were just an illusion.
And it definitely ´aint empty, yet. :ohwell:

[Anchor]

Danger itself strikes me as a fear based illusion.

Being concerned if you are right or wrong is an interesting, subtle attachment that has a shade of fear in it.

Look what can happen...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[Tony]

Now that is an interesting point!
It is all about doing the laundry = karma!
Actually there is more to this, it is about emptying the 8th consciousness. This is the store house of habitual responses, or stuff on the hard drive. But the actual 8th consciousness itself, is very near, Empty Cognisance, or 9th consciousness. This can get complicated to explain here....just do not over react! Simple.

[Tony]

Danger itself strikes me as a fear based illusion.

Being concerned if you are right or wrong is an interesting, subtle attachment that has a shade of fear in it.

Look what can happen...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

We are not enlightened so there is bound to be some attachment.
There are beneficial actions and harmful actions, when dealing
with others. One would be wise to take note of this.

There varying levels of truth, though the same words may be used.
However the meaning can change, it all depend who one is talking to.

[mosquito]

Thank you Tony, this is a very well-timed post. I've been fretting over this myself for quite some time now - "if everything's an illusion, then what's the bloody point ?"

I still feel that trying to understand these concepts using language is frought with difficulty, which is why, as you so correctly say, discipline and contemplation need to be brought to play.

[Anchor]

Thank you Tony, this is a very well-timed post. I've been fretting over this myself for quite some time now - "if everything's an illusion, then what's the bloody point ?"

I still feel that trying to understand these concepts using language is frought with difficulty, which is why, as you so correctly say, discipline and contemplation need to be brought to play.

Try (re)reading this... Even if it doesnt answer the question for you, it may provide some interesting concepts to help attack the problem

This is the transcript (the actual video is the OP on that thread)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?23596-Bashar-What-you-are-creation-a-useful-framework&p=253063&viewfull=1#post253063

[Tony]

Thank you Tony, this is a very well-timed post. I've been fretting over this myself for quite some time now - "if everything's an illusion, then what's the bloody point ?"

I still feel that trying to understand these concepts using language is frought with difficulty, which is why, as you so correctly say, discipline and contemplation need to be brought to play.

Morning Mariposafe,
It's taken me forty year to even begin to scratch the surface of this.

The computer in front of you relatively exists, but it is a temporary
phenomena. The eyes looking at the computer are also a temporary
phenomena. The thoughts that translates what's on the screen, are
also a temporary phenomena.

In the normal run of things, we think that all this is real and solid.
So we live in a relative truth world, and it does not seem like a
illusion.

On investigation we find that things have no inherent existence of
their own - they rely on causes and conditions.

So the true nature of all phenomena its non-existence, or what is
called Emptiness.
The same is with our self identity, it is Empty of any true existence.

But, that which is aware of all this, in it's pure state DOES have true existence, our true nature.
(Though implying it exists, might translate as a being thing, which it is not.)
The Buddha said, it is beyond existing and non existing.

Anyway...now we can see that when truly investigating relative truth, we find absolute truth (which is a non finding). And, in realising absolutes truth, any thing an arise in it, which is relative truth - a seeming reality. The cosmic joke! So no worries!!!

There is no big deal. Big deals are for philosophers.

[transiten]

Hi!

"Nothing" is No Thing = POTENTIALITY in The Source Field, not yet manifested in this density of materia. There is no "emptiness" only less dense dimensions, life is teaming everywhere in the Uni-verse.

[Tony]

Hi!

"Nothing" is No Thing = POTENTIALITY in The Source Field, not yet manifested in this density of materia. There is no "emptiness" only less dense dimensions, life is teaming everywhere in the Uni-verse.

Hi back to you!
If you are about life teaming are you not talking about beings?
Emptiness here means pure, before manifestations.

Tony

[Fred Steeves]

It means nothing, and it means everything. We all choose our blend.

I prefer mine shaken, not stirred.

Cheers,
Fred

[music]

There are many different takes on this concept, and for all of us, the phrase "Merely repeating words does not make it so" applies. "Going on forever" is not the same as existing outside of time though. A physicist might describe time as the fourth dimension, I might say that the fourth dimension is the plane of all that has ever existed, does exist, will or even could ever exist, while a Buddhist might equate this to the Bardo if pushed, and nothing to do with time at all. Whatever we call it, it is something that exists outside of our 3D reality, yet at the same time has bearing on it. So we have the "unreal" affecting the "real", in a way that we will always be at a loss to fully explain philosophically. The unity of realative and absolute truth is indeed a subtle business :)

[grapevine]

Thank you Tony, this is a very well-timed post. I've been fretting over this myself for quite some time now - "if everything's an illusion, then what's the bloody point ?"

I still feel that trying to understand these concepts using language is frought with difficulty, which is why, as you so correctly say, discipline and contemplation need to be brought to play.

Me too .... I also have the worrying thought that as well as discipline and contemplation there is also a degree of intellect involved in the reasoning needed to get to the next question (and I might not have the necessary degree of it, that's my worry). But this would make ascension an exclusive and excluding journey and that can't be right . . . . can it?

[Eagle]

Danger itself strikes me as a fear based illusion.

Being concerned if you are right or wrong is an interesting, subtle attachment that has a shade of fear in it.

Look what can happen...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
I love this post, love it, love it, love it.

[Limor Wolf]

Aaaaaargh! Blast!
Does that mean I have to do :washing: again today?
I was hoping the wash baskets were just an illusion.
And it definitely ´aint empty, yet. :ohwell:


I am sorry,I simply can't resist it:

Ineffable Hitchhiker,always look on the bright side of life,you could have been doing that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl1Hqc1MGJk&feature=related



Thank you Pieneal,you always seem to find a unique way to express your thoughts,and they are right on to the point.

I managed to found a few very relevent sayings about illusion -

Oscar Wildw : ~ Illusion is the first of all pleasures. ~

Albert Einstein : ~ Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one ~

Iris Murdoch : ~ We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality. ~

and finaly -

Didier Cauwelaert :

~ It is our illusions that create the world ~



In a world of duality,we are in danger to be too much inclined towords one way or to the other.
Better balance bewtween the relative truth and the absolute truth. you named it unity.

[greybeard]

The thing is that spiritual understanding takes study to get the depth of it.
Tony and others here have obviously done this.
For example "non-attachment" properly understood, does not lead to indifference or lack of compassion.
Many expressions, if taken at face value, are really quite misleading--- without the original/appropriate context.
Just being and the action of non-action does not mean sitting doing nothing.
As always you bring interesting subjects to debate Tony.
Chris

Ps Saying it does not make it so.

Try leaping out a window saying Its all an illusion --I dont believe in gravity.

[Eagle]

My friend I am starting to understand you more and more now and what you have been trying to tell people. Ignoring the illusion doesn’t make it any less real to us in the 3D world, recognizing it as an illusion and then changing our focus in order to change the reality is critical for us to achieve everything in our lives that we are hoping for.

[jorr lundstrom]

The thing is that spiritual understanding takes study to get the depth of it.
Tony and others here have obviously done this.
For example "non-attachment" properly understood, does not lead to indifference or lack of compassion.
Many expressions, if taken at face value, are really quite misleading--- without the original/appropriate context.
Just being and the action of non-action does not mean sitting doing nothing.
As always you bring interesting subjects to debate Tony.
Chris

LOL As long as there is a doer, there is doing. Sitting, without anyone sitting is an

art in itself. LOL

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/babaji5.jpg

[Tony]

Thank you Tony, this is a very well-timed post. I've been fretting over this myself for quite some time now - "if everything's an illusion, then what's the bloody point ?"

I still feel that trying to understand these concepts using language is frought with difficulty, which is why, as you so correctly say, discipline and contemplation need to be brought to play.

Me too .... I also have the worrying thought that as well as discipline and contemplation there is also a degree of intellect involved in the reasoning needed to get to the next question (and I might not have the necessary degree of it, that's my worry). But this would make ascension an exclusive and excluding journey and that can't be right . . . . can it?

I see you point.
Intellect is important, but it's more a sense of merely unlearning,
and finding confidence in what is seen.
I have had the wool pulled over my eyes for such a long time,
that now I use logic to find my way back.

But this will not suit everyone. The actual experience through
meditation is so simple and ordinary. Just being aware of awareness.
It is pure and simple, but does take practice. It's more a sense of
being familiar, with one's natural nature.

Discussing it, gets messy, when other want to prove it wrong, that's ok.

For some the mind takes a lot of convincing, for others it is just there.
No one is better than another, it is merely an individual path. What is
thrown up at us, is our own karma. If we wish to continue going round in
loop...just keep on reacting!!! It is always our choice.

Believe nothing, merely be aware of what is seeing these words, and rest.
Of course the mind or consciousness will kick in to think, react and produce
any uncontrolled emotion, but that is just your minds habit. It has got used to
reacting that way.

Just let it go, and watch the breath. That is all. When the mind is quiet the next
question will arise...just watch, it may give you the answer!

The more the world throws at you, the more you smile.

It is said, that this is the age of strife.
So, one needs something more powerful to use as an antidote.
Intense intelligence.
Intense Passion.
Intense Compassion.

Just saying you do not feel intelligent, is intelligent!!!
I as thick a two short plank.

[Tony]

QrZI1PbVmbE

[Carolin]

While I do understand (as much as I can) that everything is an illusion, I also understand that I chose to be here in this life. Be it a game, school or karma. If we were meant to remember our true existence, past lives or life's purpose we would. While I'm here not quite remembering exactly who I am I might as well enjoy being me.

When I view our existence from a higher level it seems so utterly ridiculous. In general humanity is such a disappointment to me. In order to cope I try not to take my existence too seriously. I live the best I can and spread love and light as much as possible but most importantly I try to play and have fun.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHnl7jNK6us

[Tony]

It is always good to remember the way we were.

OX8DzVLVFxE

[another bob]

The dangers of seeing everything as an illusion.

Hehe, the dangers of over-thinking! Greetings, Friend! What's truly difficult for folks these days is just paying full attention to whatever they are currently occupied with. It's much more seductive, for example, to daydream about the two-truths doctrine from Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka musings rather than focusing on washing the dishes. What is really kind of amusing is how often we so-called spiritual practitioners spend so much time trying to liberate ourselves from the very situations we ourselves chose to be in when we initially contracted to appear in this production. Actually, just to be fully present is enough, the illusions can take care of themselves, eh.

Blessings!

[Tony]

If our understanding and outlook changes just a little bit,
then sometime miraculous has happened, our time line has changed.

The little inner conflicts we encounter, review and smile at, mean
means brain pathways have joined up differently....we just got a
Bit more intelligent.

Those that are born with great intelligence, might find themselves
stuck in a smug rut, and do not find a new time line.

Rejoice in the way we were, rejoice even more in the way we are now.
Perhaps you had a wicked childhood, perhaps you had a miserable youth,
But somewhere in that youth or childhood...you must have done something good!

[Tony]

The dangers of seeing everything as an illusion.

Hehe, the dangers of over-thinking! Greetings, Friend! What's truly difficult for folks these days is just paying full attention to whatever they are currently occupied with. It's much more seductive, for example, to daydream about the two-truths doctrine from Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka musings rather than focusing on washing the dishes. What is really kind of amusing is how often we so-called spiritual practitioners spend so much time trying to liberate ourselves from the very situations we ourselves chose to be in when we initially contracted to appear in this production. Actually, just to be fully present is enough, the illusions can take care of themselves, eh.

Blessings!

That's ok. If you want to wash dishes for a few more lifetimes! If that satisfies you that is your choice. Over-thinking...not at all. What is being expressed is merely what has been experienced.

Illusions do not take care of themselves, it is understanding the nature of the illusion that dissolves the illusion. if being fully present were enough, then people in extreme situations would be enlightened....they are not. They merely aware.
That is not enough.

[Tony]

This will be a little off the wall.
I was just considering over thinking, and laughing at it.
So I looked up laughing meditation.

I was just listen to a piece of music and discovered crying meditation.
Crying at a good song, or bit in a film or in another's actions creates
A sort of release.

Has anyone else experienced this?

[Lord Sidious]

This will be a little off the wall.
I was just considering over thinking, and laughing at it.
So I looked up laughing meditation.

I was just listen to a piece of music and discovered crying meditation.
Crying at a good song, or bit in a film or in another's actions creates
A sort of release.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I seem to feel that a lot myself these days Tony.
There was a video about the ten signs of a spiritual awakening.
One of them was emotions rising all of a sudden for no apparent reason. The video said it was exactly what you said, a release of old stored emotions.

[sshenry]

The danger is arriving at Nihilism. On the forum there are many capacities, understandings and experiences. Nihilism can lead to pointlessness, depression and even suicide.

The opposite to Nihilism is Eternalism, meaning things go on forever and that there is no Absolute truth. The union of these two truth is the middle way.



And yet combining the two does not make either of them 'right', it simply allows us to walk in this reality with a measure of balance and to maintain sanity.

Blame it on the human brain if you will, which, due to its fundamentally logical nature has to be able to put everything inside of a box to be labeled and understood. Defining the box (reality) allows us to 'understand' it inside of linear space and time as it relates to the reality in which we find ourselves.

But to be able to allow what is to be without having to define and label it; without having to have 'morals' and 'laws' to govern it and tell it how to be. That is the problem with those who turn to nilism; they are bemoaning the lack of governing laws and morals to keep the universe sane.

I would think being able to move beyond the need for that would be challenging, yes, but liberating as well. To be able to live in dual understanding; seeing what reality puts in front of us and understanding the true nature of reality simultaneously.

[Guest]

I am experiencing this thread as a good integration thread and a great thread too. To me if one just sees this as an illusion and goes into Nihilism then they are not experiencing the true Reality that it's an Illusion.

If one is going through a death layer (change layer) could they mistake it as being in Nihilism -become stuck or crisis?

At some point Pie'n'eal would expand on 8th to 9th consciousness?

Nora

we are all related

[sshenry]

This will be a little off the wall.
I was just considering over thinking, and laughing at it.
So I looked up laughing meditation.

I was just listen to a piece of music and discovered crying meditation.
Crying at a good song, or bit in a film or in another's actions creates
A sort of release.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I seem to feel that a lot myself these days Tony.
There was a video about the ten signs of a spiritual awakening.
One of them was emotions rising all of a sudden for no apparent reason. The video said it was exactly what you said, a release of old stored emotions.


I've been doing that with the old Beauty and the Beast Series (from the 1980's with Ron Perlman and Linda Hamilton). I don't care what episode I watch, I see the two of them together and I start bawling like a baby....I used to love that series, but it never made me cry like this. As if there is something stored up that this particular series is unearthing...weird, but there you are.

[Eagle]

This will be a little off the wall.
I was just considering over thinking, and laughing at it.
So I looked up laughing meditation.

I was just listen to a piece of music and discovered crying meditation.
Crying at a good song, or bit in a film or in another's actions creates
A sort of release.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I seem to feel that a lot myself these days Tony.
There was a video about the ten signs of a spiritual awakening.
One of them was emotions rising all of a sudden for no apparent reason. The video said it was exactly what you said, a release of old stored emotions.
Crying after watching a movie, angry at stupid people on the road, overwhelming fear of dying for no reason, arguing with family over small things, Head aches, sadness at seeing so many sleeping people, disgust at people leaving trash everywhere, joy at meeting strangers on the web who know what I feel and dont judge me because of it, just a few things that I have gone through over the past 6 months

[Tony]

Here is something so simple I dare you not to smile and cry!
It affected 4,500.000 on the spot

X9whxWNI7bE

[Guest]

This will be a little off the wall.
I was just considering over thinking, and laughing at it.
So I looked up laughing meditation.

I was just listen to a piece of music and discovered crying meditation.
Crying at a good song, or bit in a film or in another's actions creates
A sort of release.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I seem to feel that a lot myself these days Tony.
There was a video about the ten signs of a spiritual awakening.
One of them was emotions rising all of a sudden for no apparent reason. The video said it was exactly what you said, a release of old stored emotions.


Yes, I have and everybody around me asks if something is wrong or if I am OK, my reply is nothing is wrong.

Nora

we are all related

[Lord Sidious]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txTsbeuY5gM
This is the one avalonuggets.

[Tony]

It nice to be not alone!

[jorr lundstrom]

The saying that everything is an illusion is an idea that the rishis came up with.

But they didnt mean wot we mean by illusion. They didnt mean that it didnt exist.

They just meant that it existed in time. Temporarily, transitory. Wot they considered

real was eternal phenomenons. They made a clear distinction between the absolut ie

the unchanging and the relative ie the changing. They were in search for the absolute.

We are all sitting in the absolute/ in eternity watching time goes by. But time is a

creation of the mind, ie an illusion as mind belongs to the relative ie ever changing.

During the coming months those of us who havent already lost their mind, is gonna

lose it and then time goes bye bye tooooooo. So Jump to your hearts cos soon there

aint gonna be any mind to cling to. ROFLOL

Isnt this really interesting times to play around in??????? Lucky us. LOL

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/babaji4.jpg

[another bob]

If you want to wash dishes for a few more lifetimes! If that satisfies you that is your choice. Over-thinking...not at all. What is being expressed is merely what has been experienced.

Illusions do not take care of themselves, it is understanding the nature of the illusion that dissolves the illusion. if being fully present were enough, then people in extreme situations would be enlightened....they are not. They merely aware.
That is not enough.

Greetings, Friend!

You seem to imagine that there is something (illusion) obscuring reality and that it must be destroyed before the reality is freed. There's a good laugh for ya! What is there to realize? The real is always as it is. There is nothing new nor anything you do not already have which needs to be attained or acquired. The feeling that you have not yet realized is the sole obstruction to realization. In fact, you are already free, whether you are washing dishes, chopping wood, or carrying water. The only problem is that you want things to be other than they are. You don't feel complete, and so you go around searching for some view that will give you peace, trying out various mental equations that you've been told will free you. It's all nonsense. If we were to see things as they really are, we would instantly recognize that just to be is indeed enough.

"There is no greater mystery than this, that being the reality yourself, you seek to gain reality." ~Ramana Maharshi

Blessings!

[Tony]

If you want to wash dishes for a few more lifetimes! If that satisfies you that is your choice. Over-thinking...not at all. What is being expressed is merely what has been experienced.

Illusions do not take care of themselves, it is understanding the nature of the illusion that dissolves the illusion. if being fully present were enough, then people in extreme situations would be enlightened....they are not. They merely aware.
That is not enough.

Greetings, Friend!

You seem to imagine that there is something (illusion) obscuring reality and that it must be destroyed before the reality is freed. There's a good laugh for ya! What is there to realize? The real is always as it is. There is nothing new nor anything you do not already have which needs to be attained or acquired. The feeling that you have not yet realized is the sole obstruction to realization. In fact, you are already free, whether you are washing dishes, chopping wood, or carrying water. The only problem is that you want things to be other than they are. You don't feel complete, and so you go around searching for some view that will give you peace, trying out various mental equations that you've been told will free you. It's all nonsense. If we were to see things as they really are, we would instantly recognize that just to be is indeed enough.

"There is no greater mystery than this, that being the reality yourself, you seek to gain reality." ~Ramana Maharshi

Blessings!

Sorry Bob, but you are deliberately misunderstanding. Nothing was mentioned about destroying the illusion, in fact the opposite.
I make no claim to being enlightened, and still at a practice stage. If you are happy with your realisation stick with it.

I am happy with my own approach, it is of my choosing. Please do not keep telling me, what I imagine...I know my mind!

[music]

This will be a little off the wall.
I was just considering over thinking, and laughing at it.
So I looked up laughing meditation.

I was just listen to a piece of music and discovered crying meditation.
Crying at a good song, or bit in a film or in another's actions creates
A sort of release.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I no longer practice (except on friends for free), but I had a reflexology practice for many years, and spontaneous laughing and crying was fairly common. I worked on an a very energetic level, including meridians and chakras as represented on the foot, as well as the elements and their properties. I always saw this as a barrier being passed either physically or emotional, and occasionally spriritually. It was a truly beautiful and humbling thing to see.

I have and still do experience this. From good music, films, or books, hearing insirational tales, and with therapies. I had a very strong laughing fit after taking a flower remedy once. When the laughter subsidered I had this wonderful child-like energy for a long time, and indeed it was like I had passed a barrier.

Therapeutically speaking, there are signs that energy is moving within the system where before it had been blocked. A good thing :) Other signs of energy moving are tummy gurgles, burping, and cutting the cheese.

[Arrowwind]

I kind of see things differently
I so not see 3D as an illusion
but the illusion exists in the interpretation
of 3D though individual minds based
on false beliefs, fears, and programing

3D is a reality and is a part of all existence
Just as 4D and 5D and all the dimensions of possibility

We are here because we have signed up for this 3D teaching
like it or not.

When we get good at stuff we can move in and out of 3D.
That really sinches the nail on the head for me
You can enter and leave it.

We have come here to master physical reality
we are all at various levels of this understanding
When we get it right we won't be coming here much anymore
except for those of us who really happen to like it quite a bit

If you think it is not real I suggest that you drop an anvil on your toe
that should convince you.

Your pain will echo out though your reality
and you will be quite sure that that anvil should be taken seriously
and when your body is long gone, and your spirit has flown
you will probably remember not to drop anvils on your toe
the next time you visit 3D
and others who were around you will spread the word
about the inherent dangers of anvils for eons in 3D to come.

[another bob]

Illusions do not take care of themselves, it is understanding the nature of the illusion that dissolves the illusion.


Sorry Bob, but you are deliberately misunderstanding. Nothing was mentioned about destroying the illusion, in fact the opposite.


I've juxtaposed your two quotes above to indicate that you are indeed talking about eliminating the illusion, whether you are using the words "dissolve" or "destroy". My apologies for any other attributions you find erroneous.

Blessings!

[Tarka the Duck]

If you want to wash dishes for a few more lifetimes! If that satisfies you that is your choice. Over-thinking...not at all. What is being expressed is merely what has been experienced.

Illusions do not take care of themselves, it is understanding the nature of the illusion that dissolves the illusion. if being fully present were enough, then people in extreme situations would be enlightened....they are not. They merely aware.
That is not enough.

Greetings, Friend!

You seem to imagine that there is something (illusion) obscuring reality and that it must be destroyed before the reality is freed. There's a good laugh for ya! What is there to realize? The real is always as it is. There is nothing new nor anything you do not already have which needs to be attained or acquired. The feeling that you have not yet realized is the sole obstruction to realization. In fact, you are already free, whether you are washing dishes, chopping wood, or carrying water. The only problem is that you want things to be other than they are. You don't feel complete, and so you go around searching for some view that will give you peace, trying out various mental equations that you've been told will free you. It's all nonsense. If we were to see things as they really are, we would instantly recognize that just to be is indeed enough.

"There is no greater mystery than this, that being the reality yourself, you seek to gain reality." ~Ramana Maharshi

Blessings!


Hello AB

If I may, can I please make a suggestion?
The over-usage of the word "you" tends to make a contribution sound accusatory and confrontational.
There are many ways to avoid using this word - unless of course you actually wish to be accusatory or confrontational...!

Most of us on this forum are quite opinionated: sometimes we have to remember that we actually do not know the person to whom we are writing well enough to make any assumptions about what they may or may not be.

We all have to investigate in our own way: the important thing is that we are actually investigating.

Regards
Kathie

[Fred Steeves]

This will be a little off the wall.
I was just considering over thinking, and laughing at it.
So I looked up laughing meditation.

I was just listen to a piece of music and discovered crying meditation.
Crying at a good song, or bit in a film or in another's actions creates
A sort of release.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I seem to feel that a lot myself these days Tony.
There was a video about the ten signs of a spiritual awakening.
One of them was emotions rising all of a sudden for no apparent reason. The video said it was exactly what you said, a release of old stored emotions.

I've got a thread in the works concerning just that rattling around my fragile eggshell mind LS. Thing is, it takes playng a mental round of the old game Twister to morph the "idea" or "feeling", or whatever it is into words. The "symptoms" do seem to be making the rounds here at Avalon.

Cheers,
Fred

[Tony]

Illusions do not take care of themselves, it is understanding the nature of the illusion that dissolves the illusion.


Sorry Bob, but you are deliberately misunderstanding. Nothing was mentioned about destroying the illusion, in fact the opposite.


I've juxtaposed your two quotes above to indicate that you are indeed talking about eliminating the illusion, whether you are using the words "dissolve" or "destroy". My apologies for any other attributions you find erroneous.

Blessings!

If you would like more clarification... Ultimately the illusion does not exist, but as we are here we still believe the illusion to be true. By understanding its nature will naturally...melt away. It does not matter if we SAY it's all an illusion, this is still a concept, a theory at this moment. If you have gone beyond, this is truly marvellous and wonderful, and I bow to your superior being.

I refer you to a video posted a few days ago.

teMlv3ripSM

[Tony]

As I have said many times before, even in Buddhism there are variety of approaches, slight variations which are much debated. Individuals have every right to choose their path which suits their temperament. With respect and humour much can be learnt from one another.

[another bob]

If I may, can I please make a suggestion?
The over-usage of the word "you" tends to make a contribution sound accusatory and confrontational.

Greetings, Friend!

Yes, sometimes the rhetorical "you" can be misunderstood. Thanks for the reminder!

Blessings!

[jorr lundstrom]

Pie ´e ´eal wrote:
It is always good to remember the way we were.

Im sorry, I was never wot I imagined myself to be. That was and is an illusion. LOL

[another bob]

IUltimately the illusion does not exist, but as we are here we still believe the illusion to be true.

Actually, that is not always true. In fact, we may be very well aware of the illusory nature of this existence, but still choose to be here for a variety of reasons, chief among them being to have this human experience just as it is, rather than trying to enlighten some fictitious character we may have once taken ourselves to be.



I bow to your superior being.

Then you are bowing to the air. ;)

Blessings!

[Tarka the Duck]

I bow to your superior being.

Then you are bowing to the air. ;)

Blessings!

When we talk to each other, are we also talking to the air then?!

[another bob]

I bow to your superior being.

Then you are bowing to the air. ;)

Blessings!

When we talk to each other, are we also talking to the air then?!

As long as we are ranking each other's level of attainment, yes.

Blessings!

[RedeZra]

this world of dew

is a world of dew

and yet... yet


- Kobayashi Issa


http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu88/elelavi/dewrose.jpg





it is an illusion but it feels so real

so how can i immersed in illusion be aware of Reality


i need a guide and so do you

i need someone with little dust in the eyes to take me by the hand and lead me there


if you believe you can make it on your own

then you are either a fool or one with little dust in the eyes


i need a living relationship with a spiritual giant

and if you think you can read about it in a book or two


then you are just fooling yourselves

[Margi]

If our understanding and outlook changes just a little bit,
then sometime miraculous has happened, our time line has changed.

The little inner conflicts we encounter, review and smile at, mean
means brain pathways have joined up differently....we just got a
Bit more intelligent.

Those that are born with great intelligence, might find themselves
stuck in a smug rut, and do not find a new time line.

Rejoice in the way we were, rejoice even more in the way we are now.
Perhaps you had a wicked childhood, perhaps you had a miserable youth,
But somewhere in that youth or childhood...you must have done something good!

It seems written for me. :)
My life gave me a lot confirmations of your words. You know, after difficult childhood and not an easy life I had to go off the rails. It was painful, but glad that I did it. I had to rethink my life again, to release from negative emotions and the scars in my soul and move on. I changed my thinking and perception of the world... It's long process, but the world around me has changed beyond recognition.
And another thing ...
I am grateful for everything in my life, which woke me up. Well, had to shake me, but it is preferable to lullabies. :)
Thank you

[greybeard]

Following on from Redezra

From a question and answer session with Dr David Hawkins
Page 347 “I” Reality and Subjectivity.

“Q:One hears the statement that everyone is already enlightened : How is that to be understood?

A: It mean the Self is present and potentially discoverable as the basis of one's existence.
The statement is actually an impossibility because it incorrectly defines the understanding of enlightenment, and it also presents the fallacy of the hypothetical.
To be enlightened is to know the Truth, consequently, the statement that there is a knowingness of Truth in that which does not know the Truth is an incorrect statement

What could be said to be realistic about the statement is that ultimate Truth awaits within to be discovered.
If seen If seen for what it is , all languaging is a paradox because nothing can actually be said to be.

Revelation is revealed knowingness. It is understood without without words or concepts, such as meaning or significance which are merely abstractions.
Neither the Universe or anything in the Universe means anything
The mind is accustomed to obtaining getting deriving or discovering meaning or information
In the state of enlightenment all is self revealing of its essence as its existence.
Everything is already what it means.”



There are many authors who talk about enlightenment but are not in that state.
Talking about is not it. (though the information has value)
How can you take people some where you have not been?
If one is serious about the path of enlightenment, the the teaching flowing through such a one is essential as the words carry the energy of enlightenment.

The obstacles are removed and the state naturally shines forth.
Chris
Namaste

[Fred Steeves]

I rather like the way Johnny and the boys frame matters at hand. Personally speaking, after I attain "enlightnment" and if things get boring, that highwayman gig in the 1820's WAS a kicker now, exploiting those helpless fair young maidens and such, til they hung me that is...Perhaps I'll take a do over on that one, minus the neck stretching grand finale. Yes, the bastards shall certainly not hang me this time!

Then again, the simplicity in the existance of a single drop of rain has a certain allure also. Ahhh, decisions, decisions, and none of them real. Or are they?

uw1bHaUk1CM

[Anchor]

My friend I am starting to understand you more and more now and what you have been trying to tell people. Ignoring the illusion doesn’t make it any less real to us in the 3D world, recognizing it as an illusion and then changing our focus in order to change the reality is critical for us to achieve everything in our lives that we are hoping for.

Bin-freaking-go!

By jove!

:cheer2:

[RedeZra]

who is the Greatest spiritual giant alive ? yes the living Spirit of God

when the Spirit of God comes and lives within our hearts then He will guard and guide us all the way to Heaven and eventually to Reality

we need the Spirit of God within us to teach us how to be children of God


it is a world of difference living with or without the Spirit of God within

[wolf_rt]

But everything isn't an illusion... its a metaphor isn't it?

Everything might be made of energy, but it has to be made of something right?

I prefer to think of the 3D world as holographic.

[another bob]

I prefer to think of the 3D world as holographic.

Do the characters in a holographic scenario need to be saved, freed from illusion, enlightened?


Blessings!

[RedeZra]

Do the characters in a holographic scenario need to be saved, freed from illusion, enlightened?


yes Bob we want to preserve our characters for the sequel ; )

[mosquito]

But everything isn't an illusion... its a metaphor isn't it?

Everything might be made of energy, but it has to be made of something right?

I prefer to think of the 3D world as holographic.

Yes, I think this is a good point.

Recently, all the messages I've been getting from nature are about illusion, impermanence, reflection, ripples and waves. (It's difficult to verbalise some of what I've been experiencing), and I'm pursuing the idea that illusion is perhaps a misleading term. I get the sense that everything in our physical existence, including our bodies, is like a ripple on the surface of space-time. Everything we do or think creates a ripple, which moves out and affects every other ripple, creating multiple interference patterns which, as is human nature, we end up "believing in". These ripples can also travel backwards in time, providing the future cause for a present effect which needs to take place.
The other day I was observing the reflection of some overhead wires in a lake, watching the patterns change and dance, it was fascinating ! The message was to do with seeing through the illusion of the reflection and understanding exactly what it is that's being reflected. Maybe the venets in our lives, the people we meet are just reflections of our own true nature, which runs as a constant thread through our lives. The only way to see a true reflection of the overhead wire was to wait for the waves and intereference to pass, so the only way to see our true nature is through silence and stillness, ceasing the mental chatter.

I hope this thread stays alive, it's a great discussion !

Philip ;)

[Carmody]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
I love this post, love it, love it, love it.

xkcd: http://xkcd.com/


http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/trapped.png

[Carmody]

This will be a little off the wall.
I was just considering over thinking, and laughing at it.
So I looked up laughing meditation.

I was just listen to a piece of music and discovered crying meditation.
Crying at a good song, or bit in a film or in another's actions creates
A sort of release.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Can't remember the last time I didn't.

Empathy allows for recognition and catharsis.

The enabler of compassion.

[Anchor]

I love XKCD, its on my toolbar. New cartoon every few days.... some are classics. I'd love to post more but it would derail the thread.

The fantasy of a call center operator knowing about plato's cave is heartwarming :)

[panopticon]

G'day All,

Firstly thank you for the interesting thread.
I'm really enjoying the debates and insightful comments.
I loved the images used by Anchor and Carmody.
Please forgive me but this one seemed oddly appropriate to the thread...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/alternative_energy_revolution.jpg

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Addendum:
You're right Anchor, sorry. Who could resist the Don Quixote though?
:focus:

[Davidallany]

Tony, it's brave of you to open such a topic. I salut your bravery. It has been said that once disscussion among a group whos members are learned and insightuful through walking the path, moves from mundane things into conceptualities, communications becomes difficult, especially if those members are not of the same general group, have had a different teacher raising and teaching them, and are on different stages. I offer no arguments here.

o1VXyI9c9SU

[another bob]

Greetings, Friends!

As Tony indicated earlier, Buddhism is one tradition that welcomes debate. The famous "Dharma Combat" of the Rinzai Zen Sect is a popular example, while in Tibetan Buddhism, monks are formally trained in debating skills, with the very evolution of the Dharma often hinging on the outcome of historical confrontations.

Debating, the formal arguing or discussion of a thesis before an audience, has a long and distinguished history in Buddhism beginning with the Buddha himself. In text like the Sutta Nipata of the Pali Tipitaka, the Buddha says that the true monk argues with no one and keeps away from public debates. But in many other works in the Tipitaka he is portrayed as a vigorous and successful debater. It would seem therefore that at the beginning of his career the Buddha simply taught those who were interested in what he had to say, but later as his teachings came to be criticised or misinterpreted, he felt the need to explain, clarify and defend them. And this he did with remarkable virtuosity. So successful was he that he was accused of using magic to convert his opponents. In later centuries, Buddhist scholars success in debating played an important part in the winning of intellectuals to Buddhism. Sometimes the stakes were high. During certain periods those defeated in debate had to either become the victor's disciple or commit suicide. Different Buddhist schools also debated with each other. The Chinese Mahayana monk Hsuan Tsang debated with the Savakayana monk Pragnadea in front of a huge audience and won. However it is specifically mentioned that after it was all over the two men remained good friends.

The great Samye debate in Tibet in 792-4AD between the Chinese monk Hva-san and the Indian monk Kamalasida, which the latter finally won, meant that Tibet was to rely more on India than China for its Buddhism. Perhaps the most crucial modern debate took place in Panadura in Sri Lanka in 1873. Venerable M.Gunaranda took on the Reverend David de Silva in a two day debate and to everyone's astonishment, thoroughly defeated his opponent. The victory marked the halt in Buddhism's decline in the face of Christian evangelism and the beginning of a major revival.

J.N. Jayatilleke, The Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge, London, 1963


Blessings!

[Carmody]

So successful was he that he was accused of using magic to convert his opponents. In later centuries, Buddhist scholars success in debating played an important part in the winning of intellectuals to Buddhism.

After a certain level is reached, this becomes a 'given' (English slang for inevitable result) ... but time consuming task. One has to go through all the thought form layers of the individual in front of them. IMO and IME, all that is required is their interaction and attention. Then it can be done, to the point that the result is inevitable. (Mr. Anderson)

Specific knowledge of Buddhism is not the key, but knowledge of what it is about, is key. Then the given 'mind' can be helped to the place it is trying to go to.

[Tony]

Good morning,

The original theme of this post seems to have gone astray.
It is about the danger of calling everything an illusion,
without giving a fuller picture,
thus turning the mind into nihilism.
A bystander might misunderstand and become very depressed.
This has happened before, and it will happen here.

Every thing is an illusion, meaning it is impermanent,
but this should be tempered with what is not an illusion.
These things are so easy to misunderstand and need
further explanation is needed, rather than
...”Yes it is.” “No it isn't.”

This is like thinking that a vacant state is meditation.
Somethings are easy to misunderstand.

I am not debating anything here, for entertainment.

All the best
Tony

[greybeard]

Its beyond our understanding without full enlightenment.
In that state there is a knowing without concepts.
We tend to put things in boxes---- the question we have very often is really "Whats this like?"
We limit our understanding.

God (which we are) is the totality all of it.
Form and formless both and neither.
Its impossible for the human mind to grasp that.
We are not really human as thats temporary.
We are one consciousness having a human experience.
Ultimately awareness being aware of being aware.
Awareness does not need subject and object.

Namaste

[mahalall]

How to prevent ones breadcrumbs from being eaten when entering the forest of Known illusion?
Stay present of ones change.
If one can't, then have a friend with a big stick.

p.s
my friend is ken dodd (ha)

[Tony]

God (which we are) is the totality all of it.
Form and formless both and neither.
Its impossible for the human mind to grasp that.
We are not really human as thats temporary.
We are one consciousness having a human experience.
Ultimately awareness being aware of being aware.
Awareness does not need subject and object.


Hello Christ,
This is were we differ, and this is were the
words can have a different meaning,
because of our different backgrounds.
For me Awareness creates subject and object.

So then we may have to define what an
individual means by Awareness.

[Anchor]

Hello Christ

Close enough - LOL

[Tony]

Hello Christ

Close enough - LOL

Hello Anchor,
Do you mean, it is close enough for you?
For others it may be a huge difference.

I have change spiritual paths on account
of this very question. We all have a right
to be dissatisfied with answers, in doing
so we find the answer to 'our' creation.

The AHH!...is such a relief!

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Hi pie,
I think Anchor was referring to your spelling of Chris. :biggrin1:






Aaaaaargh! Blast!
Does that mean I have to do :washing: again today?
I was hoping the wash baskets were just an illusion.
And it definitely ´aint empty, yet. :ohwell:


I am sorry,I simply can't resist it:

Ineffable Hitchhiker,always look on the bright side of life,you could have been doing that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl1Hqc1MGJk&feature=related



Limor, that was hilarious! :lol:
Not a bad idea, actually.





How to prevent ones breadcrumbs from being eaten when entering the forest of Known illusion?
Stay present of ones change.
If one can't, then have a friend with a big stick.


:becky:
Yes!
I do love your analogy.
I guess that´s why we are all here. Helping each other along attempting to find out what the illusion is.
I really enjoy the discussion here, where everyone brings their own spice to make this a delicious journey.
If something is not to your taste, you leave it be. How lucky, to have that choice. :)

[Tony]

Me fool!!!!!!!!! I entirely agree Anchor....close enough. Laughter.....

[greybeard]

God (which we are) is the totality all of it.
Form and formless both and neither.
Its impossible for the human mind to grasp that.
We are not really human as thats temporary.
We are one consciousness having a human experience.
Ultimately awareness being aware of being aware.
Awareness does not need subject and object.


Hello Christ,
This is were we differ, and this is were the
words can have a different meaning,
because of our different backgrounds.
For me Awareness creates subject and object.

So then we may have to define what an
individual means by Awareness.

My understanding is that in ascending scale.
There is consciousness
Then awareness
Then being aware of being aware.

Being aware of being aware is what I would call the void--- no-thing.
Being aware of being aware does not need subject and object --- there is a Self aware that it is.
"I am that".---- sums it up.

We are not really in disagreement Tony though the paths and language differ.
According to Eckhart Tolle in the state called enlightenment there is neither subject or object as we would define or experience it
Subject and object are the illusion created by ego.
The egoless state is a True state where there is a knowing without though, concepts, belief systems or judgment.

Namaste

[Tony]

God (which we are) is the totality all of it.
Form and formless both and neither.
Its impossible for the human mind to grasp that.
We are not really human as thats temporary.
We are one consciousness having a human experience.
Ultimately awareness being aware of being aware.
Awareness does not need subject and object.


Hello Christ,
This is were we differ, and this is were the
words can have a different meaning,
because of our different backgrounds.
For me Awareness creates subject and object.

So then we may have to define what an
individual means by Awareness.

My understanding is that in ascending scale.
There is consciousness
Then awareness
Then being aware of being aware.

Being aware of being aware is what I would call the void--- no-thing.
Being aware of being aware does not need subject and object --- there is a Self aware that it is.
"I am that".---- sums it up.

We are not really in disagreement Tony though the paths and language differ.
According to Eckhart Tolle in the state called enlightenment there is neither subject or object as we would define or experience it
Subject and object are the illusion created by ego.
The egoless state is a True state where there is a knowing without though, concepts, belief systems or judgment.

Namaste

Well, it seems that we are at one!
Now all we have to do is discuss the map
of how to get there.

Oh no!! Someone's going to say..."We are already there!"... No, no, that is just hearsay. Find a map, start the journey, find the point and then dig deep...

[ulli]

Hello Christ

Close enough - LOL

Hello Anchor,
Do you mean, it is close enough for you?
For others it may be a huge difference.

I have change spiritual paths on account
of this very question. We all have a right
to be dissatisfied with answers, in doing
so we find the answer to 'our' creation.

The AHH!...is such a relief!

I always liked the AHA! better than the AHH!
The AHH! lasts only a couple of seconds
while the AHA was the rocket that catapulted me into new worlds of great clarity.

Everyone is born with a basic discomfort zone from which they seek to escape
and which varies from person to person.
Astrology sheds a lot of light here.
As a Capricorn I hate chaos and love order. I love patterns, mathematics, symmetry.
I used to assume that others were like myself and wanted the same things I was looking for.
This, I learnt, is not the case.
So why am I even writing?
Even though we are all different, yet we also are connected.

Once all twelve signs are studied and the larger pattern (here I go again)
is discovered, and the great awesome beauty and cosmic harmony
of the totality of eternity and infinity are glimpsed
then there is both: the Ahh! and the AHA!

At that moment the mind is no longer the observer, but something else is.
I call it Being.
Mind can only perceive fragments, never wholeness.

When the whole of one's being, from the toes up,
is sensing, when the heart is feeling, when the mind is racing and assimilating:
that I call awareness.

[ViralSpiral]

Being aware of being aware is what I would call the void--- no-thing.
Being aware of being aware does not need subject and object --- there is a Self aware that it is.
"I am that".---- sums it up.




I am not that..... yet!

The ego is still driving my bus. :)

Less stops along the way now though and less attachment to the "scenery"


Great thread Pie ♥♥♥♥



The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. Nietzsche

[Tony]

Being aware of being aware is what I would call the void--- no-thing.
Being aware of being aware does not need subject and object --- there is a Self aware that it is.
"I am that".---- sums it up.




I am not that..... yet!

The ego is still driving my bus. :)

Less stops along the way now though and less attachment to the "scenery"


Great thread Pie ♥♥♥♥



The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. Nietzsche

OH! My goodness this is such an important point.............on this forum!
We are not there yet. There is much personal work to be done.
No one is going to do it for us. It does not matter what books we have
read, what we cut and paste, we have to find out for ourselves.

The clue to which direction one is facing is the degree of ......compassion
one can muster.

If you can name all the things in the universe but lack love...what good will it do you?

Thank you young lady!

[Carmody]

Good morning,

The original theme of this post seems to have gone astray.
It is about the danger of calling everything an illusion,
without giving a fuller picture,
thus turning the mind into nihilism.
A bystander might misunderstand and become very depressed.
This has happened before, and it will happen here.

Every thing is an illusion, meaning it is impermanent,
but this should be tempered with what is not an illusion.
These things are so easy to misunderstand and need
further explanation is needed, rather than
...”Yes it is.” “No it isn't.”

This is like thinking that a vacant state is meditation.
Somethings are easy to misunderstand.

I am not debating anything here, for entertainment.

All the best
Tony

It's all fun and games, until someone gets their "I" poked out.

[Carmody]

God (which we are) is the totality all of it.
Form and formless both and neither.
Its impossible for the human mind to grasp that.
We are not really human as thats temporary.
We are one consciousness having a human experience.
Ultimately awareness being aware of being aware.
Awareness does not need subject and object.


Hello Christ,
This is were we differ, and this is were the
words can have a different meaning,
because of our different backgrounds.
For me Awareness creates subject and object.

So then we may have to define what an
individual means by Awareness.

Ah, but as 'mechanisms' go the awareness must form somewhere..and it does. It forms in the flow of the inner and outer vortex balancing act we call atomic particles. The vortexes form from the two dimensions blending together to create the discrete distinctions we call particles and across their differentials... appears... the 3d universe, with it's linear directional 'time'.

We exist as an energetic form across the flow of those given dual vortexes. It is both the flow, the reality, the door, the past, present, future, map, infinity, and singularity of the all and the local infinitesimal dot and the all that permeates. That is the mechanism of the discreteness/differential.... and the totality. Wave and particle. Discrete and infinite, in the moment of the flow of now. It is the door, the mechanism, the life, the existence. It is everything and nothing. The two are inseparable as they are one. Even though they are two.

For we exist where they flow..together ...and in that moment of discreteness creation, access to all and being of all is the one thing that 'is'. Differential is the one thing that allows existence.

To open the self, to 'evolve' ...is to move toward the singularity of the point of origin of the differential, but to retain the differential at a more involved level of awareness of all.

To quote the little point I came up with the other day, to help the engineering or linear side of mind, in order to 'get there':

'Any observable differential is encoded and translational in nature.'

To be circular, to begin and return, I quote Darren Arnovsky, from his seminal film, 'Pi': "When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun. So once... when I was six... I did."

Pi is an interesting number as it is both nothing and all, it has completeness and unending differential. Angularly speaking, regarding mathematical and 3d representation/reality it is a fundamental that has 'expression of all' within it. All numbers,and none of them. It is the mathematical expression of singularity-- all potential numbers... as one. Frequency, differential, angularity, representation by math and numbers. to go, to separate... and to return, as one. Frequency. Thus:

C5UBTGzLOQc

[ulli]

Good morning,

The original theme of this post seems to have gone astray.
It is about the danger of calling everything an illusion,
without giving a fuller picture,
thus turning the mind into nihilism.
A bystander might misunderstand and become very depressed.
This has happened before, and it will happen here.

Every thing is an illusion, meaning it is impermanent,
but this should be tempered with what is not an illusion.
These things are so easy to misunderstand and need
further explanation is needed, rather than
...”Yes it is.” “No it isn't.”

This is like thinking that a vacant state is meditation.
Somethings are easy to misunderstand.

I am not debating anything here, for entertainment.

All the best
Tony

It's all fun and games, until someone gets their "I" poked out.



..and adding to the spirit of paradox
I would say the fun and games start
AFTER the " I " has been removed.
But you are right too.

[Carmody]

Good morning,

The original theme of this post seems to have gone astray.
It is about the danger of calling everything an illusion,
without giving a fuller picture,
thus turning the mind into nihilism.
A bystander might misunderstand and become very depressed.
This has happened before, and it will happen here.

Every thing is an illusion, meaning it is impermanent,
but this should be tempered with what is not an illusion.
These things are so easy to misunderstand and need
further explanation is needed, rather than
...”Yes it is.” “No it isn't.”

This is like thinking that a vacant state is meditation.
Somethings are easy to misunderstand.

I am not debating anything here, for entertainment.

All the best
Tony

It's all fun and games, until someone gets their "I" poked out.



..and adding to the spirit of paradox
I would say the fun and games start
AFTER the " I " has been removed.
But you are right too.

I walked into this thread, today... with that line in my head. I was looking for a body to attach that to.... to form the joke. :p

[Tony]

Which map?
This will depend on which store you bought the map from.
This will depend on who you have met.
This will depend on where you think you want go.
This will depend on your question.

It is all dependent origination.

One starts one's journey with a question. The question may be limited because we may not be aware all the options. Most information is like Chinese whisper, it is hearsay. But one has to start somewhere with what one has. As one proceeds more information and knowledge is gained, and so ones question may change. The process is important, step by step one finds ones feet, and forms a firm foundation. Having travelled this way, one can then empathise and help others.

If enlightenment was that easy, we would all be enlightened now...but we are not.
However it is simple, and that is a big obstacle.
So many westerns hear material, and think they are enlightened.
It is only a glimpse at the map - we all go through this!

Gradually, through practice the awareness goes deeper,
till nothing is left or rather nothing to hold onto.

If you want to make a buddha laugh, tell him/her what you know!

[ulli]

well, my motto is "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

[Eagle]

well, my motto is "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."
Oh thats just plain cold and mean, LOL

[ulli]

well, my motto is "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."
Oh thats just plain cold and mean, LOL



AHHH, as Pie would say...BUT the RELIEF
that comes with irreverence....

[Tony]

well, my motto is "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

Just to clarify this statement ( we do not want mess up the roads!). If you meet what you think is the buddha, it is still a concept, so drop it!

Thanks Ulli.

[ulli]

well, my motto is "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

Just to clarify this statement ( we do not want mess up the roads!). If you meet what you think is the buddha, it is still a concept, so drop it!

Thanks Ulli.


so is the mess.

Even perceived clutter is only a projection of a cluttered mind....

[Carmody]

Which map?
This will depend on which store you bought the map from.
This will depend on who you have met.
This will depend on where you think you want go.
This will depend on your question.

It is all dependent origination.

One starts one's journey with a question. The question may be limited because we may not be aware all the options. Most information is like Chinese whisper, it is hearsay. But one has to start somewhere with what one has. As one proceeds more information and knowledge is gained, and so ones question may change. The process is important, step by step one finds ones feet, and forms a firm foundation. Having travelled this way, one can then empathise and help others.

If enlightenment was that easy, we would all be enlightened now...but we are not.
However it is simple, and that is a big obstacle.
So many westerns hear material, and think they are enlightened.
It is only a glimpse at the map - we all go through this!

Gradually, through practice the awareness goes deeper,
till nothing is left or rather nothing to hold onto.

If you want to make a buddha laugh, tell him/her what you know!

Of course......

Which is why 'we' offer up debate to the travelers of said road/path.

I know nothing.

That is the only thing that allows this one to understand anything at all.

[wolf_rt]

Every thing is an illusion, meaning it is impermanent,
but this should be tempered with what is not an illusion.
These things are so easy to misunderstand and need
further explanation is needed, rather than
...”Yes it is.” “No it isn't.”


'Reality' might not be quite as solid as we were taught at school...(still not that solid if i recall correctly), but that doesn't make it any less real..

What is it exactly that you do consider illusionary?

Meaning is impermanent??? because the significance we attach to it changes with time? and time is an illusion?

Linear time may be only one of the ways to experience reality, but that doesn't make it an illusion.

my experience here on earth, is certainly not an illusion.


Time and 'Reality' defiantly do seem to be more malleable than we have been lead to believe though :-)

[Eagle]

Every thing is an illusion, meaning it is impermanent,
but this should be tempered with what is not an illusion.
These things are so easy to misunderstand and need
further explanation is needed, rather than
...”Yes it is.” “No it isn't.”


'Reality' might not be quite as solid as we were taught at school...(still not that solid if i recall correctly), but that doesn't make it any less real..

What is it exactly that you do consider illusionary?

Meaning is impermanent??? because the significance we attach to it changes with time? and time is an illusion?

Linear time may be only one of the ways to experience reality, but that doesn't make it an illusion.

my experience here on earth, is certainly not an illusion.


Time and 'Reality' defiantly do seem to be more malleable than we have been lead to believe though :-)

To me the illusion is the stage which has been created by the PTB to keep control and power over us as a whole. Our true natures have been stripped away and we have been left with a script of lies and false perceptions.

[Fred Steeves]

The other day I was observing the reflection of some overhead wires in a lake, watching the patterns change and dance, it was fascinating ! The message was to do with seeing through the illusion of the reflection and understanding exactly what it is that's being reflected. Maybe the venets in our lives, the people we meet are just reflections of our own true nature, which runs as a constant thread through our lives. The only way to see a true reflection of the overhead wire was to wait for the waves and intereference to pass, so the only way to see our true nature is through silence and stillness, ceasing the mental chatter.


Often times when I'm contemplating reflections like that, I think of near death experiencers who speak of a reality much more real than this one. If we take the Hermetic axiom "As above so below, as below so above", it makes me wonder if this existance might then be a mere reflection of a higher reality, therefore seemingly the same, yet less real.

To further confuse the reflection analogy, there are some very vast, yet subtle differences to what is being reflected. Stick a broom handle straight down into clear calm water, and notice the odd angle it will suddenly appear to assume below the surface. Of course we all know of this phenomena in physics, but what if we didn't???

How long might it take us on our own to eventually figure out that what we are seeing in the water is an illusion? Just like the reflection of our own face is an illusion. It is us in a way, but then again it's nothing of the sort.

Here's one more: Ever try reading the hands of a clock in the mirror? Takes some practice doesn't it?

What am I trying to say here? I haven't a clue, but sure find it interesting.

Cheers,
Fred

[Lord Sidious]

Every thing is an illusion, meaning it is impermanent,
but this should be tempered with what is not an illusion.
These things are so easy to misunderstand and need
further explanation is needed, rather than
...”Yes it is.” “No it isn't.”


'Reality' might not be quite as solid as we were taught at school...(still not that solid if i recall correctly), but that doesn't make it any less real..

What is it exactly that you do consider illusionary?

Meaning is impermanent??? because the significance we attach to it changes with time? and time is an illusion?

Linear time may be only one of the ways to experience reality, but that doesn't make it an illusion.

my experience here on earth, is certainly not an illusion.


Time and 'Reality' defiantly do seem to be more malleable than we have been lead to believe though :-)

To me the illusion is the stage which has been created by the PTB to keep control and power over us as a whole. Our true natures have been stripped away and we have been left with a script of lies and false perceptions.

They are part of the illusion created, they didn't create it.

[Tony]

Every thing is an illusion, meaning it is impermanent,
but this should be tempered with what is not an illusion.
These things are so easy to misunderstand and need
further explanation is needed, rather than
...”Yes it is.” “No it isn't.”


'Reality' might not be quite as solid as we were taught at school...(still not that solid if i recall correctly), but that doesn't make it any less real..

What is it exactly that you do consider illusionary?

Meaning is impermanent??? because the significance we attach to it changes with time? and time is an illusion?

Linear time may be only one of the ways to experience reality, but that doesn't make it an illusion.

my experience here on earth, is certainly not an illusion.


Time and 'Reality' defiantly do seem to be more malleable than we have been lead to believe though :-)




Hello Wolf_rt,
These are great questions!
One will probably spend the rest of one's life getting an experiential answer to this.

Firstly one has appreciate that one's mind is set up in a certain way, due to nature and nurture. So, in general we see things as others around us do, and at a superficial level everything seems solid enough.
Things are just 'there', and if you bang your shin or head on them it will hurt!

But we also know that everything is made out of atoms and particles.
Things also have beginning and an end - they do not last, and therefore are impermanent.
But to us they still feel real enough.
However, if you take your computer in front of you and speeded up time so that one million years passed in one second, your computer...and your house...would have been long gone and buried. So,, in reality things are not constant.
If a thing is real - or truly exists - it can never NOT exist.
If a thing is true has to be true forever!
Then it is a constant.

So things have the illusion of reality, a seeming reality.
Time only relates to things that change. There is no such thing as time.

Now, this million years that we observed before, that passed in a second, with all this stuff dissolving and movement going on... there are two 'things' that do not change.
Space and the observation of that space.
Pure awareness = inner space and outer space.
Though there are theories that time and space bend, that is dealing with the physical: it all happens in space.

One of the effects of seeing things as being temporary is that one does not cling to them as being real. However, one certainly takes care of them, and respect them.....a bit like a friend!
Merely seeing everything as an illusion is rather cold and dry.
Care and respect.....and love is the juice!

That is why this thread was started.

(Of course, if Hoagland is right, the Annunaki will arrive in a couple of hours, so we can ask them...!!!)


All the best,
Tony

[Eagle]

Every thing is an illusion, meaning it is impermanent,
but this should be tempered with what is not an illusion.
These things are so easy to misunderstand and need
further explanation is needed, rather than
...”Yes it is.” “No it isn't.”

'Reality' might not be quite as solid as we were taught at school...(still not that solid if i recall correctly), but that doesn't make it any less real..

What is it exactly that you do consider illusionary?

Meaning is impermanent??? because the significance we attach to it changes with time? and time is an illusion?

Linear time may be only one of the ways to experience reality, but that doesn't make it an illusion.

my experience here on earth, is certainly not an illusion.


Time and 'Reality' defiantly do seem to be more malleable than we have been lead to believe though :-)




Hello Wolf-rt,
These are great questions!
One will probably spend the rest of one's life, getting an experiencial answer to this.

Firstly one has appreciate that one's mind is set up in a certain way, due to nature and nurture. So, in general we see things as others around us, at a superficial level everything seems solid enough. Things are just there, and if you bang your shin or head on them it will hurt.

But we also know that everything is made out of atoms and particles. Things also have beginning and an end, they do not last, therefore impermanent. But to us they still feel real enough. However, if you take your computer in front of you, speeded up time so that one million years past in one second, your computer...and house would have been long gone and buried. So in reality things are not constant. If a thing is real or truly exists, it can never NOT exist. If a thing is true has to be true forever! Then it is a constant.

So things have the illusion of reality, a seeming reality. Time only relates to things that change. There is no such things as time.

Now, this million years that we observed before that past in a second, all this stuff dissolving and movement going on, there are two 'things' that do not change. Space and the observation of that space. Pure awareness = inner space and outer space. Though there theories that time and space bend, that is dealing with the physical, it all happens in space.

One of the effects of seeing things as being temporary, is that one does not cling to them, as being real. But one certainly takes care of them, and respect them.....a bit like a friend! Seeing everythings as an illusion is rather cold and dry. Care and respect.....and love is the juice!

That is why this thread was started.

(Of course, if Hoagland is right, the Annunaki will arrive in a couple of hours, so we can ask them...!!!)


All the best,
Tony
Tony, you are a true Nugget arnt you!

[ROMANWKT]

Hi all

This is not a great explanation but easier to understand, why the illusion, why the matrix, why the mathematics, why the fractals,why resonating frequencies,and so on, there seem to be a lot of stuff to give a perspective of what is called the illusion on You Tube. I agree with Tony that we have to be careful that some younger people don't get the wrong idea about the illusion,because if so,then life could be pointless to them( like it is to me).

cEDIl7pqTYo

zKdoE1vX7k4

Zkox6niJ1Wc

oCmGjD9j9bU

regards to all
romam

[truthseekerdan]

Great to see you back Roman! :)

According to many spiritual teachers, all human beings are, in reality, spiritual beings on a human journey. We reincarnate as human beings in order to evolve as souls. Our ultimate aim is to become fully conscious and capable as unique individual expressions of All That Is. It is a long journey, but that’s okay because the soul is eternal.

The soul’s journey is really a process of evolving. This means growing in consciousness, steadily progressing through different levels or stages of consciousness. How do we grow in consciousness? Through taking on challenging experiences in physical form. These cause us to make important, “soul-searching” choices and call upon us to discover our inner resources.

But why in physical form? Why would a perfectly happy spiritual being decide to inhabit the physical realm with all of its limitations and difficulties? It is precisely so that we can experience the state of what feels like total separation from others and from the rest of reality. Only by going into this physically separated human form can we know ourselves as beings in our own right, and not just as… well… undifferentiated blobs of energy. Being physical throws our experiences and choices into extremely sharp relief in a way that is not possible otherwise.

This is how we learn who we are and how to become all that we are. Therefore from the soul's perspective this 'human reality' is a virtual illusion however, from a human point of view is really not...

Much Love & Wisdom ~ Dan

[ROMANWKT]

Great to see you back Roman! :)

According to many spiritual teachers, all human beings are, in reality, spiritual beings on a human journey. We reincarnate as human beings in order to evolve as souls. Our ultimate aim is to become fully conscious and capable as unique individual expressions of All That Is. It is a long journey, but that’s okay because the soul is eternal.

The soul’s journey is really a process of evolving. This means growing in consciousness, steadily progressing through different levels or stages of consciousness. How do we grow in consciousness? Through taking on challenging experiences in physical form. These cause us to make important, “soul-searching” choices and call upon us to discover our inner resources.

But why in physical form? Why would a perfectly happy spiritual being decide to inhabit the physical realm with all of its limitations and difficulties? It is precisely so that we can experience the state of what feels like total separation from others and from the rest of reality. Only by going into this physically separated human form can we know ourselves as beings in our own right, and not just as… well… undifferentiated blobs of energy. Being physical throws our experiences and choices into extremely sharp relief in a way that is not possible otherwise.

This is how we learn who we are and how to become all that we are. Therefore from the soul's perspective this 'human reality' is a virtual illusion however, from a human point of view is really not...

Much Love & Wisdom ~ Dan

Hi truthseekerdan

Your answer is understood, but it took somebody else to explain it to you, do you see what i mean?? did you not find it for yourself, all the answers we seem to put out are according to somebody, but not ourselves.

Thank you truthseekerdan
my regards as always
roman

[learninglight]

Hi all

This is my take on 'seeing everything as an illusion' plz bear with me i'm no interlect:)

Everything is enegy, a wave. a blip, a spot, a dot or what ever you want to call it, its all a mass of darkness but its not dark, it lives, it functions, it creates, it deletes. It's bigger than massive but smaller than dot because how big is nothing!! We are this, we can do anything IF we wake up...but...

I live in this bubble that has been created in this 3d existance and all the sh ite that goes with it, i get through as best i can and the end result will be better for all i hope! THIS IS MY REALITY...i look at it this way...i exist in this bubble whatevers 'out there' i have a knowing off but to get through every minute of each day i have to 'live' as of this reality or i will be sectioned lol
I am aware and awake to the fact that i am nothing in the big picture but if i am to live in the now as i know it i have to put that in its place and get on with living my 'life'

I hope somebody understands what i am trying to say

much love

[ViralSpiral]

I am aware and awake to the fact that i am nothing in the big picture but if i am to live in the now as i know it i have to put that in its place and get on with living my 'life'


much love

Good morning Learninglight.

Everyone is "something", not no-thing. The illusion may be grand, yet all "somethings" have their place, however small it is perceived. Participating positively in the collective is important. So THANK YOU for sharing.


((hugs)) n tings

[greybeard]

Hi Roman
Good to see you.
In my case it was the other way about.
I had a knowing, if some what "clouded" but the feeling and experience was confirmed by what I subsequently read or heard spoken directly.
I could not hurt anything or eat meat or fish right from the start.
I now do very occasionally but all food is thanked
If I join the dots of coincidences in my life I know that there is something of a higher nature guiding my lower self.
I had to have enough humility to ask for help in extreme situations and it came.
My physical life was saved.
Best wishes
Chris

[Tony]

Religions are merely travel brochures.
How would YOU recognise a realised being?

l3YfquGrHR0

[learninglight]

I am aware and awake to the fact that i am nothing in the big picture but if i am to live in the now as i know it i have to put that in its place and get on with living my 'life'


much love

Good morning Learninglight.

Everyone is "something", not no-thing. The illusion may be grand, yet all "somethings" have their place, however small it is perceived. Participating positively in the collective is important. So THANK YOU for sharing.


((hugs)) n tings

Good morning to you too :)

I am aware that something is not nothing...i'm just not good at using the right words to get over what i'm trying to say...I know what i am and thats ok with me, took me a long time to accept reality of existance overall, but to exist in this time i have to put things in their place and deal with the everyday living as i see it around me happening here and now... i tried a long time ago to exit this 'reality' but i didn't get out ffs lol....but i learnt something important for me and thats the here and now

much love

[Tony]

Hello learning light,
It's important to turn everything inside out.
You sound like an honest chick that has just cracked its shell open!
I cannot tell you how wonderful that is.

Love,
Tony

[ViralSpiral]

Religions are merely travel brochures.





Sorry Pie, you really do bring out the worst in me ,-)

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/sat0355l.jpg







and thank you for the link!

[learninglight]

Hello learning light,
It's important to turn everything inside out.
You sound like an honest chick that has just cracked its shell open!
I cannot tell you how wonderful that is.

Love,
Tony

Thankyou Tony and you are right i think..

I enjoy turning everything inside out and questioning the why, how and what for of it all, thats why i joined this great forum, i feel shall we say at home here amongst you all...
i'm no interlect and find it hard at times to find the right words, but i'm happy you got what i'm trying to express:
It's important to know everything we can possibly know..but we live in the here and now...i'll shut up now lol

love and hugs to all

[Tony]

This video that Roman put on, show matter being created and moved by sound, or rather thoughts! There is a suggestion here that this planet and our bodies were created, by the thoughts we carry = karma, we are constantly holding all this together. This is how strong our belief system is.

oCmGjD9j9bU

[Davidallany]

Even perceived clutter is only a projection of a cluttered mind
Ulli, next time I want you to be my mom. So I can clutter my room all I want without complaints.
:D

[truthseekerdan]

Great to see you back Roman! :)

According to many spiritual teachers, all human beings are, in reality, spiritual beings on a human journey. We reincarnate as human beings in order to evolve as souls. Our ultimate aim is to become fully conscious and capable as unique individual expressions of All That Is. It is a long journey, but that’s okay because the soul is eternal.

The soul’s journey is really a process of evolving. This means growing in consciousness, steadily progressing through different levels or stages of consciousness. How do we grow in consciousness? Through taking on challenging experiences in physical form. These cause us to make important, “soul-searching” choices and call upon us to discover our inner resources.

But why in physical form? Why would a perfectly happy spiritual being decide to inhabit the physical realm with all of its limitations and difficulties? It is precisely so that we can experience the state of what feels like total separation from others and from the rest of reality. Only by going into this physically separated human form can we know ourselves as beings in our own right, and not just as… well… undifferentiated blobs of energy. Being physical throws our experiences and choices into extremely sharp relief in a way that is not possible otherwise.

This is how we learn who we are and how to become all that we are. Therefore from the soul's perspective this 'human reality' is a virtual illusion however, from a human point of view is really not...

Much Love & Wisdom ~ Dan

Hi truthseekerdan

Your answer is understood, but it took somebody else to explain it to you, do you see what i mean?? did you not find it for yourself, all the answers we seem to put out are according to somebody, but not ourselves.

Thank you truthseekerdan
my regards as always
roman

Hi Roman,

That somebody else Is The Only One, and trust with my intuition and more...:nod:
We need to rely less on our minds (ego) and follow more our heart intuition. Every process begins with trust. Trust is a motivation directly relevant to self-healing. We need to trust ourselves. We need to trust others. We need to trust ourselves to trust others.

Once we begin to move towards trust, we start the healing process by connecting with our real feelings. When we make a connection with our real feelings we start to express and release our feelings. Only then are we able to find closure to unfinished events and only then can we start to move forward with more energy for forgiving and living a balanced life.

Namaste ~ Dan

[ROMANWKT]

Great to see you back Roman! :)

According to many spiritual teachers, all human beings are, in reality, spiritual beings on a human journey. We reincarnate as human beings in order to evolve as souls. Our ultimate aim is to become fully conscious and capable as unique individual expressions of All That Is. It is a long journey, but that’s okay because the soul is eternal.

The soul’s journey is really a process of evolving. This means growing in consciousness, steadily progressing through different levels or stages of consciousness. How do we grow in consciousness? Through taking on challenging experiences in physical form. These cause us to make important, “soul-searching” choices and call upon us to discover our inner resources.

But why in physical form? Why would a perfectly happy spiritual being decide to inhabit the physical realm with all of its limitations and difficulties? It is precisely so that we can experience the state of what feels like total separation from others and from the rest of reality. Only by going into this physically separated human form can we know ourselves as beings in our own right, and not just as… well… undifferentiated blobs of energy. Being physical throws our experiences and choices into extremely sharp relief in a way that is not possible otherwise.

This is how we learn who we are and how to become all that we are. Therefore from the soul's perspective this 'human reality' is a virtual illusion however, from a human point of view is really not...

Much Love & Wisdom ~ Dan

Hi truthseekerdan

Your answer is understood, but it took somebody else to explain it to you, do you see what i mean?? did you not find it for yourself, all the answers we seem to put out are according to somebody, but not ourselves.

Thank you truthseekerdan
my regards as always
roman

Hi Roman,

That somebody else Is The Only One, and trust with my intuition and more...:nod:
We need to rely less on our minds (ego) and follow more our heart intuition. Every process begins with trust. Trust is a motivation directly relevant to self-healing. We need to trust ourselves. We need to trust others. We need to trust ourselves to trust others.

Once we begin to move towards trust, we start the healing process by connecting with our real feelings. When we make a connection with our real feelings we start to express and release our feelings. Only then are we able to find closure to unfinished events and only then can we start to move forward with more energy for forgiving and living a balanced life.

Namaste ~ Dan

Yes truthseekerdan

A very good point made and accepted, thank you.

My Regards to you
roman

[TraineeHuman]

I still feel that trying to understand these concepts using language is frought with difficulty, which is why, as you so correctly say, discipline and contemplation need to be brought to play.

Me too .... I also have the worrying thought that as well as discipline and contemplation there is also a degree of intellect involved in the reasoning needed to get to the next question (and I might not have the necessary degree of it, that's my worry). But this would make ascension an exclusive and excluding journey and that can't be right . . . . can it?

W1ndmill, you have again made what I would say is a very observant observation. I would like to point out that in certain areas the ordinary people in ancient Asian cultures were nowhere near as dumbed down as, say, contemporary Americans are. Between the 6th or 7th centuries BC and for more than a thousand years after, the typical Asian peasant or farmer working in the fields all day was very familiar with certain types of knowledge. And it was customary to spend hours of every day discussing topics in this area with one’s fellow workers. Today those topics are familiar pretty much only to professional philosophers or certain types of psychologists.

I happen to know this because I have a postgrad degree in philosophy. One of many examples of such topics would be that they understood the free will / determinism paradoxes with which contemporary philosophers are familiar. But unfortunately I doubt whether many Forum members would be familiar with, say, the extent to which the multiverse does operate deterministically as a matter of fact (no, that’s not my opinion at all, it’s simple fact) – not that there’s anything the least bit wrong with seeking maximum ego-free empowerment.

In ancient Asian philosophy, all the philosophical concepts were tailored in such a way that they had big psychological implications as well. Basically, that meant that advanced intellect-understanding was completely tied to advanced heart-understanding.

Not only that, but for them all this was totally tied to action as well. There is probably nothing more central to Chinese thought then and now than pragmatism. Pragmatism means “walking your talk”. Pragmatism was also quite central to ancient Indian thought. OK, I know the Chinese have face-saving, which is an exception to what I’ve just said. We in the West, however, have advertising, diplomacy and politics, and we don’t even remember that all these are forms of lying pure and simple. We in the West are easily the biggest hypocrites on the planet. As Krishnamurti pointed out, Christianity has been by far the most murderous and bloodthirsty major world religion on the planet over the last two thousand years or so. Most of the killing through war and sabotage in that period has come from the countries which either had been Christian for centuries or still professed to be Christian countries.

So yes, W1ndmill, I suspect it would take a lot of slightly “advanced” understanding to make it. Of course, some people may have this naturally, without much formal education.