Armed Avalonians?

[Zampano]

Hello there

A couple of days ago I had a discussion going on with 2 members on the chat. It was about owing guns.
I was confused, that both of them had guns at home.
I am quiet sure that the vast majority here on PA would love to live in a world without wars, violence and hurting one another.
Wouldnt it be the first step to live in a peaceful world to lay down your guns?

If we will face hard times, would guns be the answer?
Is this the only way to protect your family? To defend yourself?
To answer violence with more violence?

We have a gun just in case something happens...It is more common for US people to own guns, because they are easier accessible than over here in Europe. And I believe it is also a cultural thing. Personally, I would not feel safer having a gun at home.

What do you think?

[seantimberwolf]

Good question friend,
I personally believe in self defense, i know martial arts and am proficient in knife, sword and weapon training.
Do i think its relevant?
No, but its always nice to be sure, if my peace of mind brings me happiness then its good for my soul, also as stupid as this sounds but i "have" to own weapons its something in me, past life regression etc.
But i would never harm anyone undeserving, my view is this friend: If someone comes into my home to harm my loved ones then they have picked a "fight", once you pick a "fight" both partys should be willing to face the ultimate price, and we all know what that is, especially if the person in question has "evil" intentions of harming those you love.
It may be repugnant to some more enlightened Nuggets on here but too me it is natural.
Hope i dont come on as a thug lol :)
Sean

[RMorgan]

Well, this is indeed a complex subject.

I´m Brazilian. The laws here are very very rigid about gun ownership. Anyone older than 21 might buy a gun, to have it at home, and it´s a very bureaucratic and expensive process. The guns are VERY expensive as well. If you want to carry a gun with you on the streets, it´s a completely different process, in which you go to several psychological tests, pay a lot of fees and prove that your current situation (financial, risky profession, etc...) requires that you carry a gun for your own safety.

The problem is that the criminals often don´t carry legal, registered gun, and I ask myself why the criminals can have guns, while the regular honest citizen can´t? I mean, our police isn´t that good to protect us.

So, I have a gun at home indeed. A 12 shotgun. I keep it safe and with a biometric trigger locker. In the past few years, my house has been invaded 3 times. Luckily, the invaders were not professional bandits and couldn´t go past the reinforced main doors that lead to the bedrooms.

Would I shoot the invader if I came face to face with him? I don´t know. Probably I would just disable him and call the police.

However, every time I watch those guns being sold in supermarkets in the USA i find it to be very strange...

-Hey honey, do you want something from the grocery?
-Sure, baby! Bring me a diet coke and a pack of .45 hollow point ammunition!

Hahaha! It´s strange... :)

Would it improve the regular citizen life safety if gun ownership rules were changed in the USA? Probably not to much. Probably gun incidents in schools and this kind of stuff would occur less often, but the real crimes wouldn´t change much. It would be just like here in Brazil, where the regular citizens can´t carry guns, but the real bad guys can buy them freely (and cheaper) in the black markets...

Anyway, this is a very complex subject.

Cheers,

Raf.

[Magnus]

Personal defense is sometimes necessary, a gun might just be the right choice depending on the situation. Guns in itself isn't evil, it's the person using it who's responsible for his actions.

[D-Day]

An unarmed populace is a vulnerable populace, IMO.
I don't see TPTB putting down their guns any time soon.
The easiest way to control a population is to disarm them first.
This, in itself, greatly diminishes their ability to challenge the establishment.
As much as I hate to admit it I think guns are a necessary evil, for now at least.
That said, I look forward to the day when that is no longer the case.

[WhiteFeather]

We do need to protect ourselves and our family, its our given right. Family comes first. I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. I say no more peeps.

[STATIC]

Oh yes much debate on this one...
Personally I live in michigan and am surrounded by gun nut's (not meant to insult, it's true).
I understand wholeheartedly why someone feel the need for protection.
I personally do not believe that it is the end when I die, so I do not feel the need to protect myself with a weapon.
As the old saying goes, the pen is mightier than the sword.
Plus the statistics do not lie. Less guns and bullets, less gunshot wounds.

[Zampano]

I dont have a family-yes I have parents and a brother but not my own family with kids.
But if, I would still dont own a gun. Like the majority in Europe compared to other countries in the world. If it would be easier to get a gun in Europe, I dont think, that that many people would get one.
You dont miss what you dont know...

Yes Sean, it gives you confidence that you can defend yourself and your loved ones-you feel secure. "if my peace of mind brings me happiness then its good for my soul"
No doubt about that sentence

But if a country and I am quite sure that they are some-using fear to control their people ;-) wouldnt it be better to step out of this silly fear/protecting game?
I mean I live in a really neat neighbourhood, still 4 houses got broken into...it is a small street and I know this people and they were worrying all the time about people coming into their houses.
It wouldnt come into my mind to go and buy a gun (which is as well a long and expensive procedure)

I have to add that a friend of mine shot himself with a gun from another friend, which he stored in a safe. They were drunk and they were NOT CAREFUL and one killed himself. Suicide or not-we will never know.
Accidents...no guns no gun accidents. No cars no car accidents. No drugs no drug deads. Is it as simple as that?

[Cidersomerset]

Here in the UK we have been disarmed for years and on the whole we have a peacefull society . But weapons are on the streets in the cities and shotguns can be licenced.
Also during the troubles in Northern Irland weapons were avalable to all sides.....The Police on the whole have not been armed and there is still a unwritten rule that criminals
using weapons only fire them by mistake or if cornered....Gun crime does happen but it is nowhere near the percentage of other similar size countries. If civil insurrection
did kick off it would be back to the 'Pitch Fork' rebellion of my forebears.....Although some dealer would be quick to cease a oppertunity to make a proffit....

Its a cultural thing if I was in the US, I would probably own one as it is part of the countries heritage and a detterent, whether I fired it is another matter...
I don't know about other parts of the world it would be accessed country by country. I feel safe here but most people probably do in their own neighbourhood.

Cheers Steve

[RMorgan]

Oh yes much debate on this one...
Personally I live in michigan and am surrounded by gun nut's (not meant to insult, it's true).
I understand wholeheartedly why someone feel the need for protection.
I personally do not believe that it is the end when I die, so I do not feel the need to protect myself with a weapon.
As the old saying goes, the pen is mightier than the sword.
Plus the statistics do not lie. Less guns and bullets, less gunshot wounds.

That´s the complexity of this subject. Of course, less guns, less bullets, less gunshots wounds. It makes sense, at first.

However, if suddenly, in the USA (as an example), if they take all guns from the regular citizens, what would happen with crime? Would it be less crimes? Would it stay the same? Would it increase?

If you´re a criminal, in a place where almost everybody have guns, would you think twice before robbing someone? I would.

If you´re a criminal, in a place where nobody has guns, would this situation make you more secure to commit your crimes, without the risk of getting shot by a regular person? I would feel much more comfortable to do so.

Again, I repeat: The government can take the guns of the honest citizens, but it can´t take the gun out of the criminals, because most criminals use illegal, unregistered, cold guns already.

So, if the government can´t guarantee that they will also efficiently disarm the bad guys, and that it will have more correctly trained police officers on the streets, it better let the citizens have their own guns as well, at least at their homes.

Cheers,

Raf.

[Margi]

Hello,
I think it is also a personal choice, no matter how it looks in my in yours or someone else's eyes.
I have not and do not want to have or use guns. They saved me from what?
:angel:

[Zampano]

Most of the the criminals breaking in your house just want to steal your stuff and dont hurt anybody.
Is your property and your belongings worth it to maybe kill another person?
Does society creates criminals or are they born evil?
YES, it is a complex subject.

[Carolin]

We grew up with guns in our home, my Dad was a competative shooter, now both my brothers are too. I personally don't own a gun but know how to use one. I hope to God I never have to use a weapon of any kind in self defense. I would never choose to inflict that kind of karma on my soul or harm to another. However, humans still have animalistic tendancies, when fight or flight kicks in most of us would fight. So why should the criminals be the only ones with guns?

[Fred Steeves]

Zampano you son of a gun...:P You're still bothered by that chat conversation huh my friend? Being that I'm partially a cause of this conversation, allow me to toss a wild card into the mix. Although I sleep soundly with my trusty .45 on the nightstand, and with the Florida concealed permit if you see me in public it's in the old waistband, if/when the time actually materialized to use it,(which I highly doubt) I may just gently lay it on the ground and use the opportunity to up the "quickening" a notch or two and peacefully transcend that moment.

Or maybe not...Either way, me likes to have options.

Cheers Mate,
Fred

[etheric underground]

Im a true believer in protecting oneself and your family....
Currently here in Australia, we have been disarmed and left a little fragile
in defending against the true essence of a threat ( that being our own government)
But being ex military ive seen the other end of what weapons do ... and I choose
to use my higher self to protect me and my family.
When you take the gun out of the equation ....the risk of a horrible outcome is dissolved.

[STATIC]

All valid points morgan.
It's just that I think this will be the old paradigm.
Currently the majority of cause for crime and violence around the planet is manufactured lack.
So the question of gun control is a mute point once we solve the more important problems.
I will not kill someone out of fear of death. If they want to kill me for something that i have.
Then I will freely give what they want.
This response will sound like rubbish to most people, but historically nonviolence has been much more effective than force.
I want to love people, not kill them. Especially those that have lost there way.
More than ever now we need Love. I can't remember who said this, but we need to love our enemies to death. :)

[RMorgan]

Most of the the criminals breaking in your house just want to steal your stuff and dont hurt anybody.
Is your property and your belongings worth it to maybe kill another person?
Does society creates criminals or are they born evil?
YES, it is a complex subject.

Yes. Good point. That´s part of the complexity of this subject.

If a man invades your house, without carrying a gun, the possibilities that you shoot him in this moment of extreme adrenaline are big, very big. I went trough this situation and didn´t have to shoot. I just shout something like -Hey man, you better get out, I have a shotgun ready to shoot you - and he ran away.

However, what would happen if he carried a gun? Would he shoot me? Would he be more prepared than I to shoot me or someone of my family?

[Lazlo]

I have never shot anything that I didn't eat, except for one rattlesnake that decided to live in the tool shed and wouldn't come out on his own. (ETA: I guess that's not true, I have shot vermin)

I have never pointed a gun at another human being but I have had one pointed in my face.

Bottom line, I am not giving up on gun ownership until the government does the same. An armed populace is a bulwark against tyranny.

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

[daddy fishwick]

Hi all! I live in New Zealand where it is fairly easy to obtain a firearm's licence as long as you have no previous, are not crazy and have a good reason for wanting to own a firearm. You cannot provide a reason like "I want to own a firearm for personal protection", as this would provide you with a life ban from going near one and in my opinion rightly so, having said that if I lived in other countries such as South Africa where I used to live, then I would carry a weapon (firearms become weapons when used for personal protection) and be prepared to use it. I am a hunter and outdoorsman and survival expert, I also live on a farm and hence require a firearm for these reasons. I have lots of firearms, from heckler and koch sl-8 to a bunny busting .22. I enjoy using them, sighting them in and creating accuracy competitions for myself and friends. If the World goes to s**t and nutters are running a muck here in N.Z, looting and raping etc, then I would probably not think too much about using my firearms as weapons (in the most extreme of cases) A long complicated subject but that's my 10 cents, The best wishes to you all, Daddy.;)

[Zampano]

What would Chuck Norris do?

Of course if this happens to you, you are on high alert! You are in a stress situation and the robber is as well.
Who and what makes them? Nobody is born evil, me thinks!!

@ Fred: Yes I am, after countless hours without sleep, haha Good luck with the quickening thing ;-)

Taking arms away from criminals? Can you take away politicians guns? haha
well, I have no idea-no idea.
Getting a gun would probably cost more then what I own.
Guns are used to intimidate others.
If they want my property...sure take it.

How you start creating a better world?
Let nobody left behind...educate the youth
Long process

Does it mean we over here in Europe are not able to defend ourselves without having that many guns in private households?

[Maria Stade]

We can all protect our selves and will so do but one of the big therats to earth is this :

Called CERN


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDE9arihhII

They are right now building a big one in Sweden Skåne !

They are planing to move and make a sun out of this planet !

http://www.sydsvenskan.se/webbtv/webbtv_lund/article1546039/Se-Max-IV-ta-form.html

:chess:

So how do we play the game ?

[Orph]

I used to own a couple of guns and knives, but then my inner self showed me that it was my fear of violence or bad things happening to me that would actually attract that stuff to me. My inner self showed me that if I keep weapons around "just in case", I'm simply leaving the door open for that stuff to happen in my life. So I'll trust my inner self now, as it's telling me I'm safe and I have no need to be fearful. I'm not going to play the "what if" game. I'm going to trust my "inner love" game.

[jagman]

I own a lot of weapons! A over and under double barrel shot gun, a British 303, Single shot 12 gauge ,Russian Nagant rifle, A 357magnum
44 magnum and last but not least the 50 cal ! I have never shot a human being and dont plan on it! But these are strange times we live in!
I suggest every member of Avalon who feels comfortable with weapons buy one! We Must protect ourselves and families!

[Noble Hops]

If we will face hard times, would guns be the answer?
Is this the only way to protect your family? To defend yourself?
To answer violence with more violence?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. :cool:

[Khaleesi]

Here is what a few people with guns can do.

http://davekopel.org/2a/OthWr/Target_Switzerland.htm

"In World War II, the Swiss had defenses no other country had. Let's begin with the rifle in every home combined with the Alpine terrain. When the German Kaiser asked in 1912 what the quarter of a million Swiss militiamen would do if invaded by a half million German soldiers, a Swiss replied: shoot twice and go home."

[Maknocktomb]

Recent history has shown that when guns are outlawed for the populace governments take over and the people not only loose personal freedom but their lives as well. A good example is Germany in the early 1930's. After the Nazi's came into power they outlawed guns. Once they had control no one could stop them and they had a free hand in purging the local population (http://usa-the-republic.com/jurisprudentia/firearms_1.html). Other governments around the world have outlawed gun ownership and the people have suffered. Whether you agree or not, it's an interesting lesson in history. Something to think about...(http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1823003/posts)

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

In Switzerland every home has a firearm and the people are trained to use it. It is interesting that you do not hear much about gun violence or crime in Switzerland. The cities in the U.S. with the strictest gun control laws have the most violent crime. As a previous Avalon member mentioned, the criminals always seem to have a gun. I am all for non-violence and would not want to be in a position to have to use excessive force, I would try all the spiritual knowledge I know to prevent it. However, I will protect my family and myself. Would you go through the Serengeti unarmed with your family? Or would you protect yourself and family from the dangerous indigenous lifeforms (Lions etc...)?

[taurad]

it's a tough one to crack, this

i personally don't own one

i could have owned one, i didn't

chances are i never will

i will accept the cards i will be dealt with

all i have done so far in life, successfully i guess, it's based on prevention, anticipation, adaptation, steering through/away from trouble and minding my goddamn business...i intend to do this, and pass it on my children for the rest of my life

having said that, i also do fully support the self-defense, for anyone that feels comfortable enough with such

just bear in mind thou, owing a weapon, doesn't mean drop the preventative measures and reach for it...that will result in complete failure

my biggest problem in todays world is weapons around addicts...

and there's a lot of them...

everybody does suffer from one form or another...it's not getting better, simply worse

check on youtube of ppls behaviors under influence (any type, from too much sugar on Halloween to salvia smokers)

add weapons to this category (easily 80% of the worlds population!) and voila! a mega ****-storm

a great reason to ban all weapons

and also

a great reason to own one against'em


:confused: :confused: :confused:

cheers all

[Laurel]

The state I live in just passed the concealed carry law. This means that, with a permit you can legally carry a concealed gun into public places. People who back this law believe that it makes them safer...that those who will use their guns for crime, would do it with or without the law. So, in essence, the "good guys" with the guns can "protect" themselves. It just sounds like a huge accident waiting to happen.

I understand the reasoning behind the right to bear arms and being able to protect yourself. Still, carrying a gun, concealed or not, goes against my values. I couldn't do it.

[Maria Stade]

Its easy to make a weapon if needed.
A iron tip on this and it can make grea damage !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJLCB88Y5KM&feature=related

Or compaund bows it can even be useful if food is needed !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIXVR0MCc7E

Or mabe make a cross bow


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXpbJqYvsrY&feature=related

or why not a slingshot


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L28hnM5yyx8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLDE5D8E9B86C95477

[blufire]

A State Trooper friend of mine once said that the sound of a pump action shotgun will stop any thug in his tracks and the only thing more terrifying than the sound of a pump action shotgun . . . . is a woman holding said shotgun.

I have shot one man trying to break into our house. Gave him three warnings and he continued to break the door down so I shot through the door . . . . I thought I killed him . . . . he simply passed out. Sheriff came and carted him away and to jail.

Another instance I shot over the truck of a man who had been stalking and harassing me for months. I tried all the “right” things. Restraining orders . . . . police reports . . . .reasoning. Yeah right. He pulled down into my driveway (way out in country) to sit and watch and flash his lights on and off as he had done several times before. Fed up I walked outside right into his headlights pulled up my shotgun, aimed straight at him until he got the message . . . . he slammed the truck into reverse and started peeling out with gravel flying and I shot over his truck. He never bothered me or my babies again. Case Closed.

So yeah I have guns and know when and how to use them.

[ghostrider]

Guns can misfire, ammo runs out, a blade never misfires, never runs out of ammo. from about six feet away, a man with a pistol against a blade will take a celestial dirt nap. the knife will win. thats why they teach the police to draw their weapon if a person with a knife is six feet away. I am against any kind of violence. an intruder wants to kill me ? go ahead I want to go home anyway, and a parting gift a little karma left on you, just because you have the power, doesn't mean you have to use it. sidebar ( I'm cherokee and Irish, make me angry and I lose my temper and everyone is in danger. ) beating down a jerk won't cure him, in the aftermath , he will still be a jerk. in the end your actions gained you nothing but regret. my people lost their land and history because of white men and their guns and greed. with england's quest to put their flag everywhere , and make everyone live under the rule of england= look how the world ended up... a dam mess.

[jackovesk]

As an Australian, I have no problem with 2nd Amendment and why the Founding Fathers wrote it into the Constitution (Bill of Rights) that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms.


Definition: (Text)

"There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with slight capitalization and punctuation differences, found in the official documents surrounding the adoption of the Bill of Rights.[5] One version was passed by the Congress,[6] while another is found in the copies distributed to the States[7] and then ratified by them.

As passed by the Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.[8]
The original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights, approved by the House and Senate, was prepared by scribe William Lambert and resides in the National Archives."

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution


The 2nd Amendment was designed to provide the American people the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, but also...

Why is it still important?


There are those who would say, "The Second Amendment's not needed anymore. There's no threat of tyranny in our government." While it's fortunate that we've grown comfortable with our government, we need to remain aware that the only reason we have been able to grow comfortable with it is because the Second Amendment has prevented the government from posing a threat to us for all these years. History is littered with stories of unarmed citizens being taken over by dictators (Germany is one such example). Could that happen here? Not if we maintain the right to keep and bear arms. No other country has the freedoms that we have here in the United States. This is truly the most awesome place in the world to live, and I would like to keep it that way. When politicians take an anti-Second Amendment stance, we seriously need to wonder about their motives.

If you gun control advocates still dream of a day when the private ownership of guns is banned and the police are the only ones who are armed, feel free to relocate to the People's Republic of China, where your dream is a reality.

http://members.tripod.com/~waycool_dude/secondamendment.html

Each and every amendment in the Bill of Rights is important, but the the Second Amendment is the most important because it guarantees that the others will not be taken away. Think about it. Once the right to own firearms is eliminated, eliminating all other rights (such as the Freedom of Speech) will be a piece of cake. If that happens, what are you going to do? Protest? You certainly can't resist. All you can do is watch it happen.

The Second Amendment is the American peoples insurance policy against this. It's been working quite effectively for over 200 years, and as they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

My 2 cents worth...

Jack

[Seeker]

I am from Texas and we love our guns. Mostly for hunting. I own 7 hunting weapons but no pistols because I have no need for one. Pistols are only good for hunting people. However, if someone breaks into my house or poses a threat to my family, they will eat lead. I will not be shooting to wound.
If you want to know why the populace should be allowed to have guns, go to Mexico. There only the criminals have guns and the population is terrorized. There would be much less violence in Mexico if people could have guns. My wife is from Mexico city and used to be scared of guns. Now she wishes she could take a gun with her to Mexico when she visits home and is getting her concealed weapon permit so she can pack heat everywhere she goes.
I think gun safety should be taught in schools everywhere and the populace should be able to have guns. People who have guns without training are more dangerous to themselves than anyone else. Just google all the athletes that shoot themselves all the time trying to be cool by carrying around a pistol. The world would be a much better place and people would be much more civil with each other if everyone had guns. Guns are the great equalizer. In Texas, if there ever is martial law and guns are confiscated, they will never get all of the guns. They might control the cities, but they will never control the countryside.
Another thing, Houston has the most friendly drivers of any big city. You know why? Because it is assumed that everyone has a gun in their car. Nobody ever gives anyone the finger on the road in Houston because honestly, the odds are fairly high you will get shot if you do. I can honestly say I have not heard anyone honk their horn in 10 years. Like giving the finger, honking the horn is not a very smart thing to do here.

[Unified Serenity]

I read a rather alarming United States Department document years ago called "FREEDOM FROM WAR: The United States Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World". I will post it here, and you will see we are being moved throughout the world to the enactment of this plan. As you can see, ultimately we will be controlled by one group who decides what we do. It would work in theory if you had trust in those who were the leaders acting on mankind's benefit and not using their power to benefit a few at the cost of the many. I do not have such a faith in leaders at this time.

Some will be made to bear the burdens of supporting the world and others will be takers. There will be a very few well heeled elites who live life better than kings, and the rest who are told how to live.

I believe in gun control. For me it means hitting my target!


FREEDOM FROM WAR:
The United States Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World

DEPARTMENT OF STATE
PUBLICATION 7277
Disarmament Series 5
Released September 1961
Office of Public Services
BUREAU OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS

INTRODUCTION

The revolutionary development of modern weapons within a world divided by serious ideological differences has produced a crisis in human history. In order to overcome the danger of nuclear war now confronting mankind, the United States has introduced at the Sixteenth General Assembly of the United Nations a Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World.

This new program provides for the progressive reduction of the war-making capabilities of nations and the simultaneous strengthening of international institutions to settle disputes and maintain the peace. It sets forth a series of comprehensive measures which can and should be taken in order to bring about a world in which there will be freedom from war and security for all states. It is based on three principles deemed essential to the achievement of practical progress in the disarmament field:

First, there must be immediate disarmament action:

A strenuous and uninterrupted effort must be made toward the goal of general and complete disarmament; at the same time, it is important that specific measures be put into effect as soon as possible.

Second, all disarmament obligations must be subject to effective international controls:

The control organization must have the manpower, facilities, and effectiveness to assure that limitations or reductions take place as agreed. It must also be able to certify to all states that retained forces and armaments do not exceed those permitted at any stage of the disarmament process.

Third, adequate peace-keeping machinery must be established:

There is an inseparable relationship between the scaling down of national armaments on the one hand and the building up of international peace-keeping machinery and institutions on the other. Nations are unlikely to shed their means of self-protection in the absence of alternative ways to safeguard their legitimate interests. This can only be achieved through the progressive strengthening of international institutions under the United Nations and by creating a United Nations Peace Force to enforce the peace as the disarmament process proceeds.

There follows a summary of the principal provisions of the United States Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World. The full text of the program is contained in an appendix to this pamphlet.

SUMMARY

DISARMAMENT GOAL AND OBJECTIVES

The over-all goal of the United States is a free, secure, and peaceful world of independent states adhering to common standards of justice and international conduct and subjecting the use of force to the rule of law; a world which has achieved general and complete disarmament under effective international control; and a world in which adjustment to change takes place in accordance with the principles of the United Nations.

In order to make possible the achievement of that goal, the program sets forth the following specific objectives toward which nations should direct their efforts:

The disbanding of all national armed forces and the prohibition of their reestablishment in any form whatsoever other than those required to preserve internal order and for contributions to a United Nations Peace Force;

The elimination from national arsenals of all armaments, including all weapons of mass destruction and the means for their delivery, other than those required for a United Nations Peace Force and for maintaining internal order;

The institution of effective means for the enforcement of international agreements, and for the maintenance of peace in accordance with the principles of the United Nations;

The establishment and effective operation of an International Disarmament Organization within the framework of the United Nations to insure compliance at all times with all disarmament obligations.
TASK OF NEGOTIATING STATES

The negotiating states are called upon to develop the program into a detailed plan for general and complete disarmament and to continue their efforts without interruption until the whole program has been achieved. To this end, they are to seek the widest possible area of agreement at the earliest possible date. At the same time, and without prejudice to progress on the disarmament program, they are to seek agreement on those immediate measures that would contribute to the common security of nations and that could facilitate and form port of the total program.
GOVERNING PRINCIPLES

The program sets forth a series of general principles to guide the negotiating states in their work. These make clear that:

As states relinquish their arms, the United Nations must be progressively strengthened in order to improve its capacity to assure international security and the peaceful settlement of disputes;

Disarmament must proceed as rapidly as possible, until it is completed, in stages containing balanced, phased, and safeguarded measures;

Each measure and stage should be carried out in an agreed period of time, with transition from one stage to the next to take place as soon as all measures in the preceding stage have been carried out and verified and as soon as necessary arrangements for verification of the next stage have been made;

Inspection and verification must establish both that nations carry out scheduled limitations or reductions and that they do not retain armed forces and armaments in excess of those permitted at any stage of the disarmament process; and

Disarmament must take place in a manner that will not affect adversely the security of any state.
DISARMAMENT STAGES

The program provides for progressive disarmament steps to take place in three stages and for the simultaneous strengthening of international institution.
FIRST STAGE

The first stage contains measures which would significantly reduce the capabilities of nations to wage aggressive war. Implementation of this stage would mean that:

The nuclear threat would be reduced:

All states would have adhered to a treaty effectively prohibiting the testing of nuclear weapons.

The production of fissionable materials for use in weapons would be stopped and quantities of such materials from past production would be converted to non-weapons uses.

States owning nuclear weapons would not relinquish control of such weapons to any nation not owning them and would not transmit to any such nation information or material necessary for their manufacture.

States not owning nuclear weapons would not manufacture them or attempt to obtain control of such weapons belonging to other states.

A Commission of Experts would be established to report on the feasibility and means for the verified reduction and eventual elimination of nuclear weapons stockpiles.
Strategic delivery vehicles would be reduced:

Strategic nuclear weapons delivery vehicles of specified categories and weapons designed to counter such vehicles would be reduced to agreed levels by equitable and balanced steps; their production would be discontinued or limited; their testing would be limited or halted.
Arms and armed forces would be reduced:

The armed forces of the United States and the Soviet Union would be limited to 2.1 million men each (with appropriate levels not exceeding that amount for other militarily significant states); levels of armaments would be correspondingly reduced and their production would be limited.

An Experts Commission would be established to examine and report on the feasibility and means of accomplishing verifiable reduction and eventual elimination of all chemical, biological and radiological weapons.
Peaceful use of outer space would be promoted:

The placing in orbit or stationing in outer space of weapons of mass destruction would be prohibited.

States would give advance notification of space vehicle and military launchings.
U.N. peace-keeping powers would be strengthened:

Measures would be taken to develop and strengthen United Nations arrangements for arbitration, for the development of international law, and for the establishment in Stage II of a permanent U.N. Peace Force.

An International Disarmament Organization would be established for effective verification of the disarmament program:

Its functions would be expanded progressively as disarmament proceeds.

It would certify to all states that agreed reductions have taken place and that retained forces and armaments do not exceed permitted levels.

It would determine the transition from one stage to the next.
States would be committed to measures to reduce international tension and to protect against the chance of war by accident, miscalculation, or surprise attack:

States would be committed to refrain from the threat or use of any type of armed force contrary to the principles of the U.N. Charter and to refrain from indirect aggression and subversion against any country.

A U.N. peace observation group would be available to investigate any situation which might constitute a threat to or breach of the peace.

States would be committed to give advance notice of major military movements which might cause alarm, observation posts would be established to report on concentrations and movements of military forces.
SECOND STAGE
The second stage contains a series of measures which would bring within sight a world in which there would be freedom from war. Implementation of all measures in the second stage would mean:

Further substantial reductions in the armed forces, armaments, and military establishments of states, including strategic nuclear weapons delivery vehicles and countering weapons;

Further development of methods for the peaceful settlement of disputes under the United Nations;

Establishment of a permanent international peace force within the United Nations;

Depending on the findings of an Experts Commission, a halt in the production of chemical, bacteriological, and radiological weapons and a reduction of existing stocks or their conversion to peaceful uses;

On the basis of the findings of an Experts Commission, a reduction of stocks of nuclear weapons;

The dismantling or the conversion to peaceful uses of certain military bases and facilities wherever located; and

The strengthening and enlargement of the International Disarmament Organization to enable it to verify the steps taken in Stage II and to determine the transition to Stage III.
THIRD STAGE
During the third stage of the program, the states of the world, building on the experience and confidence gained in successfully implementing the measures of the first two stages, would take final steps toward the goal of a world in which:

States would retain only those forces, non-nuclear armaments, and establishments required for the purpose of maintaining internal order; they would also support and provide agreed manpower for a U.N. Peace Force.

The U.N. Peace Force, equipped with agreed types and quantities of armaments, would be fully functioning.

The peace keeping capabilities of the United nations would be sufficiently strong and the obligations of all states under such arrangements sufficiently far-reaching as to assure peace and the just settlement of differences in a disarmed world.

APPENDIX
DECLARATION ON DISARMAMENT
THE UNITED STATES PROGRAM FOR GENERAL AND COMPLETE DISARMAMENT IN A PEACEFUL WORLD

The nations of the world,

Conscious of the crisis in human history produced by the revolutionary development of modern weapons within a world divided by serious ideological differences;

Determined to save present and succeeding generations from the scourge of war and the dangers and burdens of the arms race and to create conditions in which all peoples can strive freely and peacefully to fulfill their basic aspirations;

Declare their goal to be: A free, secure, and peaceful world of independent states adhering to common standards of justice and international conduct and subjecting the use of force to the rule of law; a world where adjustment to change takes place in accordance with the principles of the United Nations; a world where there shall be a permanent state of general and complete disarmament under effective international control and where the resources of nations shall be devoted of man's material, cultural, and spiritual advance;
Set forth as the objectives of a program of general and complete disarmament in a peaceful world:

(a) The disbanding of all national armed forces and the prohibition of their reestablishment in any form whatsoever other than those required of preserve internal order and for contributions to a United Nations Peace Force;

(b) the elimination from national arsenals of all armaments, including all weapons of mass destruction and the means for their delivery, other than those required for a United Nations Peace Force and for maintaining internal order;

Nations to ensure compliance at all times with all disarmament obligations;

(d) The institution of effective means for the enforcement of international agreements, for the settlement of disputes, and for the maintenance of peace in accordance with the principles of the United Nations.
Call on the negotiating states:

(a) To develop the outline program set forth below into an agreed plan for general and complete disarmament and to continue their efforts without interruption until the whole program has been achieved;

(b) To this end to seek to attain the widest possible area of agreement at the earliest possible date;

(c) Also to seek - without prejudice to progress on the disarmament program - agreement on those immediate measures that would contribute to the common security of nations and that could facilitate and form a part of that program.
Affirm that disarmament negotiations should be guided by the following principles:

(a) Disarmament shall take place as rapidly as possible until it is completed in stages containing balanced, phased and safe-guarded measures, with each measure and stage to be carried out in an agreed period of time.

(b) Compliance with all disarmament obligations shall be effectively verified from their entry into force. Verification arrangements shall be instituted progressively and in such a manner as to verify not only that agreed limitations or reductions take place but also that retained armed forces and armaments do not exceed agreed levels at any stage.

(c) Disarmament shall take place in a manner that will not affect adversely thesecurity of any state, whether or not a party to an international agreement or treaty.

(d) As stated relinquish their arms, the United Nations shall be progressively strengthened in order to improve its capacity to assure international security and the peaceful settlement of differences as will as to facilitate the development of international cooperation an common tasks for the benefit of mankind.

(e) Transition from one stage of disarmament to the next shall take place as soon as all the measures in the preceding stage have been carried out and effective verification is continuing and as soon as the arrangements that have been agreed to be necessary for the next stage have been instituted.
Agree upon the following outline program for achieving general and complete disarmament:
STAGE I
A. To Establish an International Disarmament Organization:

(a) An International Disarmament Organization (IDO) shall be established within the framework of the United Nations upon entry into force of the agreement. Its functions shall be expanded progressively as required for the effective verification of the disarmament program.

(b) The IDO shall have: (1) a General Conference of all the parties; (2) a Commission consisting of representatives of all the major powers as permanent members as permanent members and certain other states on a rotating basis; and (3) an Administrator who will administer the Organization subject to the direction of the Commission and who will have the authority, staff, and finances adequate to assure effective impartial implementation of the functions of the Organization.

(c) The IDO shall: (1) ensure compliance with the obligations undertaken by verifying the execution of measures agreed upon; (2) assist the states in developing the details of agreed further verification and disarmament measures; (3) provide for the establishment of such bodies as may be necessary for working out the details of further measures provided for in the program and for such other expert study groups as may be required to give continuous study to the problems of disarmament; (4) receive reports on the progress of disarmament and verification arrangements and determine the transition from one stage to the next.
B. To Reduce Armed Forces and Armaments:

(a) Force levels shall be limited to 2.1 million each for the U.S. and U.S.S.R. and to appropriate levels not exceeding 2.1 million each for all other militarily significant states. Reductions to the agreed levels will proceed by equitable, proportionate, and verified steps.

(b) Levels of armaments of prescribed types shall be reduced by equitable and balanced steps. The reductions shall be accomplished by transfers of armaments to depots supervised by the IDO. When, at specified periods during the Stage I reduction process, the states party to the agreement have agreed that the armaments and armed forces are at prescribed levels, the armaments in depots shall be destroyed or converted to peaceful uses.

(c) The production of agreed types of armaments shall be limited.

(d) A Chemical, Biological, Radiological (CBR) Experts Commission shall be established within the IDO for the purpose of examining and reporting on the feasibility and means for accomplishing the verifiable reduction and eventual elimination of CBR weapons stockpiles and the halting of their production.
C. To Contain and Reduce the Nuclear Threat:

(a) States that have not acceded to a treaty effectively prohibiting the testing of nuclear weapons shall do so.

(b) The production of fissionable materials for use in weapons shall be stopped.

(c) Upon the cessation of production of fissionable materials for use in weapons, agreed initial quantities of fissionable materials from past production shall be transferred to non-weapons purposes.

(d) Any fissionable materials transferred between countries for peaceful uses of nuclear energy shall be subject to appropriate safeguards to be developed in agreement with the IAEA.

(e) States owning nuclear weapons shall not relinquish control of such weapons to any nation not owning them and shall not transmit to any such nation information or material necessary for their manufacture. States not owning nuclear weapons shall not manufacture such weapons, attempt to obtain control of such weapons belonging to other states, or seek or receive information or materials necessary for their manufacture.

(f) A Nuclear Experts Commission consisting of representatives of the nuclear states shall be established within the IDO for the purpose of examining and reporting on the feasibility and means for accomplishing the verified reduction and eventual elimination of nuclear weapons stockpiles.
D. To Reduce Strategic Nuclear Weapons Delivery Vehicles:

(a) Strategic nuclear weapons delivery vehicles in specified categories and agreed types of weapons designed to counter such vehicles shall be reduced to agreed levels by equitable and balanced steps. The reduction shall be accomplished in each step by transfer to depots supervised by the IDO of vehicles that are in excess of levels agreed upon for each step. At specified periods during the Stage I reduction process, the vehicles that have been placed under supervision of the IDO shall be destroyed or converted to peaceful uses.

(b) Production of agreed categories of strategic nuclear weapons delivery vehicles and agreed types of weapons designed to counter such vehicles shall be discontinued or limited.

(c) Testing of agreed categories of strategic nuclear weapons delivery vehicles and agreed types of weapons designed to counter such vehicles shall be limited or halted.
E. To Promote the Peaceful Use of Outer Space:

(a) The placing into orbit or stationing in outer space of weapons capable of producing mass destruction shall be prohibited.

(b) States shall give advance notification to participating states and to the IDO of launchings of space vehicles and missiles, together with the track of the vehicle. F. To reduce the Risks of War by Accident, Miscalculation, and Surprise Attack: (a) States shall give advance notification to the participating states and to the IDO of major military movements and maneuvers, on a scale as may be agreed, which might give rise to misinterpretation or cause alarm and induce countermeasures. The notification shall include the geographic areas to be used and the nature, scale and time span of the event.

(b) There shall be established observation posts at such locations as major ports, railway centers, motor highways, and air bases to report on concentrations and movements of military forces.

(c) There shall also be established such additional inspection arrangements to reduce the danger of surprise attack as may be agreed.

(d) An international commission shall be established immediately within the IDO to examine and make recommendations of the possibility of further measures to reduce the risks of nuclear war by accident, miscalculation, or failure of communication.
G. To Keep the Peace:

(a) States shall reaffirm their obligations under the U.N. Charter to refrain from the threat or use of any type of armed force - including nuclear, conventional, or CBR - contrary to the principles of the U.N. Charter.

(b) States shall agree to refrain from indirect aggression and subversion against any country.

(c) States shall use all appropriate processes for the peaceful settlement of disputes and shall seek within the United Nations further arrangements for the peaceful settlement of international disputes and for the codification and progressive development of international law.

(d) States shall develop arrangements in Stage I for the establishment in Stage II of a U.N. Peace Force.

(e) A U.N. peace observation group shall be staffed with a standing cadre of observers who could be despatched to investigate any situation which might constitute a threat to or breach of the peace.
STAGE II
A. International Disarmament Organization:

The powers and responsibilities of the IDO shall be progressively enlarged in order to give it the capabilities to verify the measures undertaken in Stage II.
B. To Further Reduce Armed Forces and Armaments:

(a) Levels of forces for the U.S., U.S.S.R., and other militarily significant states shall be further reduced by substantial amounts to agreed levels in equitable and balanced steps.

(b) Levels of armaments of prescribed types shall be further reduced by equitable and balanced steps. The reduction shall be accomplished by transfers of armaments to depots supervised by the IDO. When, at specified periods during the Stage II reduction process, the parties have agreed that the armaments and armed forces are at prescribed levels, the armaments in depots shall be destroyed or converted to peaceful uses.

(c) There shall be further agreed restrictions on the production of armaments.

(d) Agreed military bases and facilities wherever they are located shall be dismantled or converted to peaceful uses.

(e) Depending upon the findings of the Experts Commission on CBR weapons, the production of CBR weapons shall be halted, existing stocks progressively reduced, and the resulting excess quantities destroyed or converted to peaceful uses.
C. To Further Reduce the Nuclear Threat:

Stocks of nuclear weapons shall be progressively reduced to the minimum levels which can be agreed upon as a result of the findings of the nuclear Experts Commission; the resulting excess of fissionable material shall be transferred to peaceful purposes.
D. To Further Reduce Strategic Nuclear Weapons Delivery Vehicles:

Further reductions in the stocks of strategic nuclear weapons delivery vehicles and agreed types of weapons designed to counter such vehicles shall be carried out in accordance with the procedure outlined in Stage I.
E. To Keep the Peace:

During Stage II, states shall develop further the peace-keeping processes of the united Nations, to the end that the United Nations can effectively in Stage III deter or suppress any threat or use of force in violation of the purposes and principles of the united Nations:

(a) States shall agree upon strengthening the structure, authority, and operation of the united Nations so as to assure that the United Nations will be able effectively to protect states against threats to or breaches of the peace.

(b) The U.N. Peace Force shall be established and progressively strengthened.

(c) States shall also agree upon further improvements and developments in rules of international conduct and in processes for peaceful settlement of disputes and differences.
STAGE III

By the time Stage II has been completed, the confidence produced through a verified disarmament program, the acceptance of rules of peaceful international behavior, and the development of strengthened international peace-keeping processes within the framework of the U.N. should have reached a point where the states of the world can move forward to Stage III. In Stage III progressive controlled disarmament and continuously developing principles and procedures of international law would proceed to a point where no state would have the military power to challenge the progressively strengthened U.N. Peace Force (emphasis added) and all international disputes would be settled according to the agreed principles of international conduct.
The progressive steps to be taken during the final phase of the disarmament program would be directed toward the attainment of a world in which:

(a) States would retain only those forces, non-nuclear armaments, and establishments required for the purpose of maintaining internal order; they would also support and provide agreed manpower for a U.N. Peace Force.

(b) The U.N. Peace Force, equipped with agreed types and quantities of armaments, would be fully functioning.

(c) The manufacture of armaments would be prohibited except for those of agreed types and quantities to be used by the U.N. Peace Force and those required to maintain internal order. All other armaments would be destroyed or converted to peaceful purposes.

(d) The peace-keeping capabilities of the United Nations would be sufficiently strong and the obligations of all states under such arrangements sufficiently far-reaching as to assure peace and the just settlement of differences in a disarmed world.

[exchange student]

I believe that if we want to live in a better world, a better world would be a gunless one, for guns only provoke damage and bad intentions.

You should never kill anyone no matter the situation, if you do it will just creep right back on you and you will end up paying for your actions in this life or the next.

“Life is about learning lessons; hence everything happens for a reason”

Cheers,

Steve

[Virgo]

I was told by a friend that the Scarborough, Maine Cabelas store sells on average 4000 guns per week.

[sygh]

Unified Serenity,

1961, right? And we all know how that's been working out. Your post might just deserve a nugget award. Carrots.

[DNA]

Guns can misfire, ammo runs out, a blade never misfires, never runs out of ammo. from about six feet away, a man with a pistol against a blade will take a celestial dirt nap. the knife will win. thats why they teach the police to draw their weapon if a person with a knife is six feet away. I am against any kind of violence. an intruder wants to kill me ? go ahead I want to go home anyway, and a parting gift a little karma left on you, just because you have the power, doesn't mean you have to use it. sidebar ( I'm cherokee and Irish, make me angry and I lose my temper and everyone is in danger. ) beating down a jerk won't cure him, in the aftermath , he will still be a jerk. in the end your actions gained you nothing but regret. my people lost their land and history because of white men and their guns and greed. with england's quest to put their flag everywhere , and make everyone live under the rule of england= look how the world ended up... a dam mess.

No offense bro, but you are dreaming. I took kali escrima for years, I studied knife fighting, stick fighting, and you know what,,,,I would never call them martial arts,,,I would call them exercise routines,,,because the word martial means war,,,and if your going to war with a knife,,,your ass is as dead as fried chicken.
I have a laser mounted ak47, why? Because if the perverbial doo doo hits the fan, I want to be able to defend my loved ones.

I love eastern arts that devolop the mind body and spirit,,,,but they stopped being martial when the gun was invented. And to not realize that point makes you worse off than if you never studied them.



Recent history has shown that when guns are outlawed for the populace governments take over and the people not only loose personal freedom but their lives as well. A good example is Germany in the early 1930's. After the Nazi's came into power they outlawed guns. Once they had control no one could stop them and they had a free hand in purging the local population (http://usa-the-republic.com/jurisprudentia/firearms_1.html). Other governments around the world have outlawed gun ownership and the people have suffered. Whether you agree or not, it's an interesting lesson in history. Something to think about...(http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1823003/posts)


This is my favorite post. Folks who don't believe in guns trust their governments a whole lot more than I do.
Also,,,,you have to factor in the possibility your country could be attacked and over run.
Laugh if you want to, but a lot of countries out there are very vulnerable to invasion.
It's a lot more difficult for invading forces to take over your country if they have to earn every single block they take with blood.

[spiritguide]

When nations relinquish standing armies and armed police, then it will be acceptable for all to disarm. Until then the argument is mute. IMHO

[daddy fishwick]

Guns can misfire, ammo runs out, a blade never misfires, never runs out of ammo. from about six feet away, a man with a pistol against a blade will take a celestial dirt nap. the knife will win. thats why they teach the police to draw their weapon if a person with a knife is six feet away. I am against any kind of violence. an intruder wants to kill me ? go ahead I want to go home anyway, and a parting gift a little karma left on you, just because you have the power, doesn't mean you have to use it. sidebar ( I'm cherokee and Irish, make me angry and I lose my temper and everyone is in danger. ) beating down a jerk won't cure him, in the aftermath , he will still be a jerk. in the end your actions gained you nothing but regret. my people lost their land and history because of white men and their guns and greed. with england's quest to put their flag everywhere , and make everyone live under the rule of england= look how the world ended up... a dam mess.

No offence Brother, but I'd take that bet any day!

[161803398]

Not a good idea to give up your guns. There's a very good video I was looking for (but cant find yet) about what has happened to countries where people have given up their guns. Basically, its the first step to genocide.

[modwiz]

The fact we are such an armed country not only affords protection from domestic tyranny it is one reason we will never see any foreign country come to our shores. Up here in the mountains where I live if a some foreign army decided to helicopter or parachute soldiers into this area it would turn into a turkey shoot and every other country in the world knows that. Only the sheeple of this country can actually be duped into believing that we have to fight them 'over there' so we don't have to fight them over here. That is a line only a somnambulant population could believe.

Talk about not recognizing one's own power. The shackles and bars of our perceptions.

[Ivanhoe]

Even though I hate violence, if my home or my family or friends were threatened with violence I would respond in kind, even knowing the resultant karma.
If I thought I could resolve the situation with a words then that's what I would do,...talk, but if it required me to open a big can of whoop ass I can do that also.(I'm also Cheerokee/Scots-Irish)
To most people using deadly force is a horrible thing, it is to me also, but I would defend my home and family to the utmost.
I figure if an intruder is still committing or about to commit a crime to me after he hears me rack a round into a 12 gauge and I yell at him to get the bleep out, then he is either stupid or thinks he's bullet proof because I WILL shoot his ass.

[Lord Sidious]

Recent history has shown that when guns are outlawed for the populace governments take over and the people not only loose personal freedom but their lives as well. A good example is Germany in the early 1930's. After the Nazi's came into power they outlawed guns. Once they had control no one could stop them and they had a free hand in purging the local population (http://usa-the-republic.com/jurisprudentia/firearms_1.html). Other governments around the world have outlawed gun ownership and the people have suffered. Whether you agree or not, it's an interesting lesson in history. Something to think about...(http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1823003/posts)

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

In Switzerland every home has a firearm and the people are trained to use it. It is interesting that you do not hear much about gun violence or crime in Switzerland. The cities in the U.S. with the strictest gun control laws have the most violent crime. As a previous Avalon member mentioned, the criminals always seem to have a gun. I am all for non-violence and would not want to be in a position to have to use excessive force, I would try all the spiritual knowledge I know to prevent it. However, I will protect my family and myself. Would you go through the Serengeti unarmed with your family? Or would you protect yourself and family from the dangerous indigenous lifeforms (Lions etc...)?

Erm, no.
Guns were not forbidden in the Reich.
Where do you think all your ancestors were getting the lugers?
You think there were millions of officers and ncos carrying them?
There is so much smoke in the air with this topic it is hard to see where the smoke ends and the clouds begin.

[161803398]

this video is about what happened in several places and times when people gave up their guns:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/innocents-betrayed/

[sandy]

Seems to me by the majority of posts that guns are all about FEAR!! and most of it assumed ; -)

[161803398]

Here is another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTdphM-tUQ0

[music]

I would advise against going on to a public forum and declaring whether or not you are armed

[161803398]

Seems to me by the majority of posts that guns are all about FEAR!! and most of it assumed ; -)

sometimes a little negativity can be a wise thing.

[161803398]

I am from Canada too, you know. We are nice, quiet people. I used to look at the gun situation in America and think "those guys are all nuts". I asked an American guy one time "why do you guys want guns". He said it was to protect people from the government. OH MY GOD! I thought the Americans were even crazier than I thought they were. Well, that was before I knew anything about anything. Now, I say to the Americans: I am glad you are there with your guns because I understand what that guy was telling me now. I have watched our government become crazier as time goes on...influenced by a criminal element. Not to many people here see this..they still think everything is nice.

Our military wouldn't protect us. They are horrible and dangerous which is why I think they got a Canadian to head up Nato's attack on Libya. I think the American military would probably protect the people but I doubt the Canadian military would do that..they are different people...the kids no one liked at school. If anything ever happened here we would be in huge trouble because we are all living in a fantasy about how good and safe things are in Canada.

[GlassSteagallfan]

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution was not written for hunting purposes. When the Second Amendment was written, if you did not hunt, you did not eat.

[DarMar]

who lives by the sword, dies by the sword

[modwiz]

who lives by the sword, dies by the sword

That is a a quote that is sometimes bent out of shape. It is the government that is living by the sword. People owning guns for protection are not living by it. It is the aggressors who that quote is most applied to. An acknowledged well armed populace should not have to fire a shot. Like the cold war, it is a stand off that keeps the peace.

[DNA]

I am from Canada too, you know. We are nice, quiet people. I used to look at the gun situation in America and think "those guys are all nuts". I asked an American guy one time "why do you guys want guns". He said it was to protect people from the government. OH MY GOD! I thought the Americans were even crazier than I thought they were. Well, that was before I knew anything about anything. Now, I say to the Americans: I am glad you are there with your guns because I understand what that guy was telling me now. I have watched our government become crazier as time goes on...influenced by a criminal element. Not to many people here see this..they still think everything is nice.

Our military wouldn't protect us. They are horrible and dangerous which is why I think they got a Canadian to head up Nato's attack on Libya. I think the American military would probably protect the people but I doubt the Canadian military would do that..they are different people...the kids no one liked at school. If anything ever happened here we would be in huge trouble because we are all living in a fantasy about how good and safe things are in Canada.

In 1865, the civil war had taken the US's attention away from global affairs obviously, and France used that oppurtunity to invade Mexico, claiming it was theirs due to the fact Spain had bequiethed it to them when Napolean had conqueared them.

After the civil war, Lincoln told France to get the hell out of Mexico or he was going to open up a can of whip ass on them.
France got the hell out of Mexico.

Canada knows for all intensive purposes they do not even need a millitary right now due to the fact that there is no way the US would let anyone march on them.

As for the forseeable future, Canada's only worrys in global affairs in the realm of tyranical demands,,,,,,are the demands the US will make on her.

[skyflower]

let me tell you a little story:

on April 29, 1992 a jury acquitted LAPD officers responsible in the beating of Rodney King. The rest is history.

It was a Wednesday night. I stopped by a gas station to fill up on gas before I headed out to a church in the suburbs. My mom was supposed to meet a friend visiting from out of the country, so I agreed to drive her there.

As I waited for the tank to fill up, there passed a fleet of marked and unmarked police cars, about 40 of them, coming from the east (where LA city hall is located) heading westbound. I thought to myself, "wow, there must be a big crime happening somewhere". In retrospect, the police were actually fleeing to the westside.

The next day, while the destruction and looting was spreading in Koreatown, not one single police patrol car was visible in the streets. The media drummed up reports of a case where a Korean woman liquor store owner shot a black teenager the previous year. Meanwhile security was reinforced in Beverly Hills.

The looting spread also to South Central LA, and sporadic destruction of property in some other areas. But the hardest hit was Koreatown.

I lived in Koreatown while attending college, and let me tell you...on Thursday night, I could smell the smoke coming from all directions, from all the fires burning around me. I went out to rescue my mother's friend from downtown LA during the day, and on the way back home, some guy threw a brick into my windshield. I saw people raiding into stores, and carrying out whatever they could carry. Others were throwing little fire bombs into the stores. It was CHAOS.

I have seen "people" turn into crazed mindless animals that day.

Amongst the businesses that survived the attack of these "animals", were the ones that had the owners protecting their livelihoods with guns. Yes, the ones with the guns, the animals left alone.

Let me add that the national guard did not come in until Saturday IIRC to restore order. The destruction started Wednesday night. From Wed. to Sat., people were left to fend for themselves.

a gun is a tool, albeit, a powerful one. But it is not guns that kill people. It is the intention of the one using the gun that does.

I was against guns in my earlier days. After this event, I changed my mind. I don't own one. But I respect the right to own one, and I believe that right should not be taken away.

[DNA]

I would advise against going on to a public forum and declaring whether or not you are armed

When you buy a gun you have to pass a back ground check. So the government knows when you own a gun,,,,even in the good ol state of AZ, where it may be easier to own a gun than just about any where in the world. I can carry a hand gun here without a concealed weopons permit.
Hell,,,,,,,they used to stipulate that you couldn't take your gun in to the bar when you got drunk, but obviously some proud arizonian decided that was some bull,,,,so they over turned that,,,,now you can take your gun into the bar,,,as long as the establishment doesn't post a "no guns" sign. Crazy.

There isn't too much road rage going on here. Everyone knows not to do it. Everyone is packing. :)

[vibrations]

Reading all the posts in this thread, one question starting to emerge. All this people, gun lovers are the same people seeking for so called "ascension"? Everybody has a choice to choose the way of living and taking actions in a difficult situations. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, but over my life I went through some life threatening situations, being armed, being without it and the only conclusion it came from it is the old saying, violence creates more violence. Just holding a firearm (or knife, or slingshot...) is a dangerous thing, it's like a drug which clouds your mind, false feeling of power, all that very easily produce the situation so hard there is no way back.
Our evolution (IMHO) has a goal of recognizing others as a part of myself, so no harm for to anyone. We all put as a valuable reason the level of crime we are surrounded with but we forget that 95% of all crime is produced by the actual economic situation where there is more and more poor people and as a consequence more end more desperate situations. Instead of working on this, we buy guns. Ok, I understand that US has a long tradition in carrying guns (well, it's a half nanosecond in a human history clock), but I also thing this is an artificial sense of security, people think that they can defend themselves against unjust government intervention against them and all what is happened is they get killed. For the government it's very convenient if you are armed, it's easy to fabricate the "proof" they had to put you down, so all this thinking about freedom, I think it is just a desperate fear.
And when you are able to overcome it, than you do not need any weapon, your brain becomes the most effective defense system.
I am against arms and against any violence.

[DarMar]

That is a a quote that is sometimes bent out of shape. It is the government that is living by the sword. People owning guns for protection are not living by it. It is the aggressors who that quote is most applied to. An acknowledged well armed populace should not have fire a shot. Like the cold war, it is a stand off that keeps the peace.


pls, think again. when did you seen some goverment leader killing people? when did you see any president wearing gun?
if you was living far away from earth till now i can help you with few things arroud here.

See, goverment is making guns, and people buy them. So When they do that they even give more money to goverment for that as we all know goverments are poor.
There are those different kind of humans which join army and serve for his country! to protect and serve! yes, americans protected alots of people arround world, why can we see it?
So they go and die for "their" country which is not actually even close to theirs.
As a matter of fact it would be hilarious if such pain and suffering wasnt involved in wars .. hilarious i mean by human behaviours.

So.. no goverment isn't killing people!!!!!! people kills people!! or you missed that part really?
I can already imagine 100 congresmen running with guns on millions of people which are poor and cant defend themselves without any weapon, runnnn :D
no buying guns will ever resolve anything.
when people stop buyin weapon MADE to kill other human beign WILL resolve problem. Problem would dissapear if there would be no army.
Makin people poor and feeling unsafe is part of goverment plan, does that ring a bell?
if someone is poor and unsafe.... yoin the army \o/

There is a material to write several books on this topic how this programming of fear goes.

M8, im living on same planet as you and: Never EVER i would do something that someone directs to me if thats not resonating with me, nor goverment nor space alien.
GOVERMENTS DO is strong word my friend cause HUMANS DO! goverments are just suggesting, and decission is on us will we do it or not.
Its not their fault that some people have blindfolded eyes, neither is mine.

No one can ensure me that they hold guns to do gardening with it or protect himself on some or other way. ever.


Edit:

When you buy a gun you have to pass a back ground check. So the government knows when you own a gun,

of course they know, they want to know, they want people to buy them, that's why its legal!!!
they want someone to feel safer by the steel than by himself, they love illusions!
people are just buying that illusions!

[DNA]

Reading all the posts in this thread, one question starting to emerge. All this people, gun lovers are the same people seeking for so called "ascension"?

Just because some one owns a gun and believes in owning them doesn't per se make them a gun lover. This doesn't have to be us vs them. This doesn't need to be the lotus holding pacificsts versus the Kill em all and let god sort em out militia men.

If you feel gun owning does something to you that is undesirable, then I applaud your choice in not owning one.

I for one feel this is a predatory universe, and, though folks may not agree with this, I think war will always exist in mankind.
I believe many spiritual things, reincarnation being one of them, but, this world is a lesson, and in that lesson, there are no ascended buddhas, if anyone reaches that level, apparently they have better things to do than incarnate here.
I could personally give a rats ass about karma, because we have thousands upon thousands of lives to work that out, I live by the golden rule, and this is good enough for me.

Religion and philosophy aside, I think your best determiner for gun owner ship should reside in history, and what happens to cultures who are deprived of the ability to arm themselves.

[Tony]

I suppose I'll just have to shout...BANG!

[Lord Sidious]

I suppose I'll just have to shout...BANG!

When I was in the army, we used to joke that the australian army was a brown paper bag with the word BANG written on it.
That was back in the days when we used to mind our own business.

[Fred Steeves]

Reading all the posts in this thread, one question starting to emerge. All this people, gun lovers are the same people seeking for so called "ascension"?

Just because some one owns a gun and believes in owning them doesn't per se make them a gun lover. This doesn't have to be us vs them. This doesn't need to be the lotus holding pacificsts versus the Kill em all and let god sort em out militia men.

If you feel gun owning does something to you that is undesirable, then I applaud your choice in not owning one.


You beat me to it DNA. I find it rather amusing drinking my coffee this morning being referred to as a gun lover. Jeez, you would think I pull the old 12 gauge out every day just to lament on it's magnificence, then maybe fondle some various ammo for a while. I think not. For me, a gun is a tool, a defense tool for myself and possibly others, and nothing else. I've owned firearms since 2003, and other than those closest to me, no-one I encounter in daily life since then even has a clue. It's not something I go around flaunting or talking about, that would be ridiculous.

I own and drive a truck, but that doesn't make me a truck lover.

I own a wide display of carpentry tools, but I wouldn't consider myself a tool lover.

Please do be careful with labels vibrations, just because one makes a well thought out decision to own firearms to protect their family, does not not make them morally or spiritually inferior. It just is.

Cheers,
Fred

[taurad]

it is not black and white, ppl!!!

150% grey area!!!

and please, please do not draw your magnums out...yet...we can settle this peacefully

:rolleyes:

[mahalall]

Last night i sat in depth, and saw the chasing violent rage of Maul.
Faced with wrath,
but present in serenity.
I expanding out,
together we sat,
sharing truth.
q8TWPNUBafQ

[161803398]

Having said all that I had a friend whose brother was living in South America. They were an interesting family -- definitely each of them walked to a different beat. It was always mind expanding being around them, even for tea, because they never did anything normal. My friend told me that once her brother in South America was chased by a gang of men carrying machetes. He started running fast. He got tired. Then he just stopped, sat down and started to meditate. The gang caught up to him but didn't seem to know what to do and left him alone.

Now, not one of them would have even touched a gun saying it would be "bad Karma". To give an example, my friend had a bike without a lock for it. She rode it everywhere. She used to take it to Vancouver, leave it leaning unlocked up against a parking meter or a pole, and go shopping for a couple of hours. It never got stolen. Her boyfriend kept telling her to get a lock for it. Finally, one day she did....and you know what happened, right?

[Lost Soul]

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution was not written for hunting purposes. When the Second Amendment was written, if you did not hunt, you did not eat.

The Second Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights to reserve in the people the power to defend themselves against tyranny. It's not about duck hunting.

While all members of Avalon here believe in peace, that does not mean that one must sit idly by and be victimized. Anyone with any sense of self respect and dignity will want the means to protect themselves and their family - that is, unless they feel the lives of murderers and rapists are more important that the lives of their loved ones or themselves.

There has been at least one instance where a military medic picked up a gun to defend his patient. The medic had no desire to be a combatant and that is why he became a medic, but when the compelling need to defend a defenseless and injured patient arises, that medic overcame his own desire not to take a life.

A decent person would do the same for their spouse, children and parents. It's not about taking a life, it's about defending oneself and others.

Pray it doesn't happen and do your best to avoid it, but when violence comes your way, be prepared to deal with it.

[Calz]

Will do a "dangerous" thing here and post based on the OP without reading through the thread ...

I am an Avalonian.

I wish no one anywhere any harm.

I understand completely that we are all connected (not just humans).


....


Someone breaks into my home with the intent to harm my family will receive as many rounds of buckshot as necessary.

Knock on the door and say you need food or water ... then we shall talk :)

[Calz]

Even though I hate violence, if my home or my family or friends were threatened with violence I would respond in kind, even knowing the resultant karma.



No ... all about intent ... you have no karma to incure if you are defending you or your family.

IMHO

[Lazlo]

Let's be honest here, I stated in my previous post that I believe an armed populace is a bulwark against tyranny. That is true.

But, in a TEOTWAKI scenario, I expect to use my gun to feed myself and my family. I do not expect to die in an Alamo style blaze of glory fighting the good fight.

For all intents and purposes, my guns are fishing poles.

[1159]

Guns are for taking life, or causing exteme injury. They are outdated, technology that should never be used by enlightened people. If you need to prevent an agressor overpowering you, there are other methods and other devices that temporarly paralyse them without loss of life or injury. Killing one another for defense, or to gain supremacy is so ... passe and primative.

[Lord Sidious]

Guns are for taking life, or causing exteme injury. They are outdated, technology that should never be used by enlightened people. If you need to prevent an agressor overpowering you, there are other methods and other devices that temporarly paralyse them without loss of life or injury. Killing one another for defense, or to gain supremacy is so ... passe and primative.

I disagree totally.
I would carry the karma to protect those I love if I had no option other than to ''kill'' the aggressor.

[Jean-Marie]

Guns are for taking life, or causing exteme injury. They are outdated, technology that should never be used by enlightened people. If you need to prevent an agressor overpowering you, there are other methods and other devices that temporarly paralyse them without loss of life or injury. Killing one another for defense, or to gain supremacy is so ... passe and primative.

I completely disagree with the "Guns are for taking of Life, or causing extreme injury" I am an excellent shot with a 12 gauge! I spend all my free time up at boyscout camp at the shotgun range. For me it is a sport and I have only shot clay or skeet flying in the air.

[Zampano]

Why do you disagree on that? Would you prefer to kill someone instead of using a device, where a lethal end would not (or hardly) be possible?
Defending yes-killing no!

[Calz]

Guns are for taking life, or causing exteme injury. They are outdated, technology that should never be used by enlightened people. If you need to prevent an agressor overpowering you, there are other methods and other devices that temporarly paralyse them without loss of life or injury. Killing one another for defense, or to gain supremacy is so ... passe and primative.

I disagree totally.
I would carry the karma to protect those I love if I had no option other than to ''kill'' the aggressor.

My family means everthing to me.

I wish no harm to anyone ... but threaten my family and all bets are off.

[Lord Sidious]

Why do you disagree on that? Would you prefer to kill someone instead of using a device, where a lethal end would not (or hardly) be possible?
Defending yes-killing no!

I did six years in the army and I have training in the killing arts.
Whilst you are messing around trying to disable someone to stop them, they have already killed you.
Could you tell me what device you are going to use?

[Unified Serenity]

I don't think consensus will be reached here, and doubt many of us expect that to happen. There are those who will never support firearms and others who will stand by their firm belief that having a firearm for defense is a smart thing to do given the possibility of facing an assailant any given time who has no problem harming others. Had we never discovered gun powder, the power of the atom, metallurgy, we would probably be having the argument over the possession of dangerous rocks and sticks. Some within society choose to solve their problems by means of violence. Very few people are going to just let someone assault them or their friends and family nor do I believe they should.

The fact of the matter is men are generally stronger than women. A handgun is an amazing equalizer in the case of a man attacking a woman. Many men also do not want to get into physical confrontations with an attacker and they are protective of their children and families. What is he to do if several men are breaking into his home and threatening his family? Should he try to take them all on like he's Jackie Chan? It is sound to consider the possibilities and take precautions to protect your home and family in the best means possible. Whether you live out in the country or in the city there is a chance you will have to protect yourself from an attacker. I live in the country and we have bears, puma's, snakes, dogs, and people of all temperaments. Most people in the country do have a firearm and therefore there are few people breaking into homes out here. When I worked in law enforcement we talked about the lack of crime out in the county vs. the city. It was our clear viewpoint it was simply because everyone has a gun in the country while in the city a criminal is less likely to face an armed victim.

Cops who protect the public are wonderful, but sadly they are usually on scene after a crime is committed gathering information and writing a report. I agree with the person who said, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6". I pray I never have to harm another, but if I am confronted with that situation I will protect my friends and family to my dying breath.

[Zampano]

electric shock bullets, bean bags, rubber bullets, pepper pistol, rock salt shotgun...

It depends on the situation where you have to use the weapon. I think when somebody is in your house and you have to defend yourself, this devices mentioned above would be suitable.
If there is chaos on the streets and an angry mob wants to get you, well I guess you will not come far with a rubber bullet.

[Lord Sidious]

electric shock bullets, bean bags, rubber bullets, pepper pistol, rock salt shotgun...

It depends on the situation where you have to use the weapon. I think when somebody is in your house and you have to defend yourself, this devices mentioned above would be suitable.
If there is chaos on the streets and an angry mob wants to get you, well I guess you will not come far with a rubber bullet.

And what do you do when you meet someone like me who has a very high pain threshold and a high tolerance too?
Or someone on PCP?
My sensei used me as the guinea pig when the school got together for weekend training because he could actually hit and kick me without it hurting me.
And I can take a lot of damage without being taken down.
If you shot me with a bean bag round, even at point blank, if it didn't take out my eye or something like that, you would make me so angry I would feel nothing.
And I would probably turn your shotgun into a suppository. :p

[Unified Serenity]

electric shock bullets, bean bags, rubber bullets, pepper pistol, rock salt shotgun...

It depends on the situation where you have to use the weapon. I think when somebody is in your house and you have to defend yourself, this devices mentioned above would be suitable.
If there is chaos on the streets and an angry mob wants to get you, well I guess you will not come far with a rubber bullet.

I understand your point about not needing excessive force. I just don't think we live in a very sane time. We will see an increase in home invasions especially as the holidays get closer. Most of the home invasions have two or more assailants to deal with the people inside the home. They are also prepared for confrontation. I would not want to put my families life on the line with a bean bag gun. Now until I master my latest Jedi moves of telekinesis and molecular attacks, I think I will trust in the trusty shotgun or other home defense weapon. The punji sticks hidden in holes outside are also useful j/k.

[Calz]

All due respect ... and I mean that quite sincerely as I wish no harm to anyone ... if an "angry mob" (read hungry) mob is breaking into your home ... I don't think rubber bullets or other "non lethal" means will "save the day".

Let me be clear. I have never struck anyone in my life (much less killed or wounded them).

I will not give up that mark unless necessary.

6 rounds of buckshot can do a whole lotta damage to a whole lotta folks.

I will not go there unless given no choice.

Cal

[Zampano]

And I would probably turn your shotgun into a suppository.

Is this what you do, when you get really angry ;-)

If it doesnt work, well I have done my best-bad day.
But no guns for me...
Military service was enough.

[Lord Sidious]

And I would probably turn your shotgun into a suppository.

Is this what you do, when you get really angry ;-)

If it doesnt work, well I have done my best-bad day.
But no guns for me...
Military service was enough.

I totally comprehend where you are coming from.
The thing I am proudest of after my six years of army time is that I never pointed any weapon at anyone when it was loaded with anything other than blanks.
I am not a pacifist, but I prefer the mentality my sensei taught me, ''A fight avoided is a fight won'' and then if that doesn't work, ''Kill them where they stand asap'' if it is them or you.

[Calz]

And I would probably turn your shotgun into a suppository.

Is this what you do, when you get really angry ;-)

If it doesnt work, well I have done my best-bad day.
But no guns for me...
Military service was enough.

If you had miltary service then that is 100% understood.

Someone breaks into your house and is heading directly for you with mal intent (put aside family for now).

What do you do????

Are you awake???

Sending a love bomb and encasing them with a bubble of white light???

Click ... you die.

Just where in the heck was that ninja from Fulford's group again???

Unless they can do serious in between life healing what does it matter???

Oy ... rambling again ...

Cal

[Calz]

Forgive the hollywood (illuminati) images.

Have a taste ...


VZqkktcaxWQ

[eric charles]

Hello there

A couple of days ago I had a discussion going on with 2 members on the chat. It was about owing guns.
I was confused, that both of them had guns at home.
I am quiet sure that the vast majority here on PA would love to live in a world without wars, violence and hurting one another.
Wouldnt it be the first step to live in a peaceful world to lay down your guns?

If we will face hard times, would guns be the answer?
Is this the only way to protect your family? To defend yourself?
To answer violence with more violence?

We have a gun just in case something happens...It is more common for US people to own guns, because they are easier accessible than over here in Europe. And I believe it is also a cultural thing. Personally, I would not feel safer having a gun at home.

What do you think?

Zampano you sound like a Feminist yuppie ,

I own guns , many of them , old WW2 assault rifles , shotguns etc , I collect them , I also hunt and like to go down to the firing range with my buddies and have a good time , I use them for social interaction and hunting .
Never would i use them to harm anyone ! Ever

Pffff lay down our guns , yeah right , the minute that happens , our freedoms will no longer exist ! and we will be truely ruled by the Iron fist

[Lord Sidious]

Hello there

A couple of days ago I had a discussion going on with 2 members on the chat. It was about owing guns.
I was confused, that both of them had guns at home.
I am quiet sure that the vast majority here on PA would love to live in a world without wars, violence and hurting one another.
Wouldnt it be the first step to live in a peaceful world to lay down your guns?

If we will face hard times, would guns be the answer?
Is this the only way to protect your family? To defend yourself?
To answer violence with more violence?

We have a gun just in case something happens...It is more common for US people to own guns, because they are easier accessible than over here in Europe. And I believe it is also a cultural thing. Personally, I would not feel safer having a gun at home.

What do you think?

Zampano you sound like a Feminist yuppie ,

I own guns , many of them , old WW2 assault rifles , shotguns etc , I collect them , I also hunt and like to go down to the firing range with my buddies and have a good time , I use them for social interaction and hunting .
Never would i use them to harm anyone ! Ever

Pffff lay down our guns , yeah right , the minute that happens , our freedoms will no longer exist ! and we will be truely ruled by the Iron fist

Come on Eric, be nice.
By all means, we can debate the point of various different things, but we can't go insulting each other.
Uncle Sidious has a huge stock of carrots for naughty posters. :p

[Zampano]

Feminist yuppie...Thank you Mr. Eric Charles
nobody ever called me that

Ok I can top that:

You said: Never would i use them to harm anyone ! Ever

You go hunting, you are hurting our beloved animal friends! :o

What am I to you now?

[truth4me]

We do need to protect ourselves and our family, its our given right. Family comes first. I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. I say no more peeps.Your right. Protection of oneself and family is number 1. Without going into much detail a friend ask me this ." this guy spit in my wife's face at our house after being caught stealing,what you do?" I told him I would have clocked him as hard as I could. My friend was asleep when the spiting went down. He found out later after the police had cleared the scene.....

[Camilo]

I lived in the USA for 25 yrs., and Americans take very at heart the constitutional right to bear arms to protect their lifes and their families. Many of my closest and friends and co-workers had worked in the law enforcement field, and all of them owned arms. I never did.

[Fred Steeves]

Hey Zamps, I think this conversation is sort of winding up the way our 3-way chat one did that started this whole thing huh? How's this for a bridge builder? We live in a free will universe where we live and die, moment by moment, lifetime after lifetime, millenium after millenium, by the choices we make. I contend that EVERYONE living now on this planet is here based on "prior" decisions. There is/was/will be no right or wrong, good or bad, wise or unwise...There simply is...

We're all here in this sacred time doing our own things, in our own ways, and it's thrilling! We've all got a front row seat for the big freak show, and by GOD are we getting our money's worth!

No-one now is going to convince anyone else to see things their way about firearms, no more so than the pros and cons of being a vegetarian, or what have you. I'm thinking this is what we need to get through our thick skulls full of mush: UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL. It's a VERY old game, it's one that WE lose every time it's played, and it's one we're ALL guilty of perpetuating, so maybe we should stop playing it, and finally move on?

Does this make any sense?

Cheers,
Fred

[joelmags]

We can discuss ad nauseam.

Try living on a farm.

Here, we walk softly and carefully but carry big sticks.

We live. We do not discuss.

[jack]

Armed with peace a person will never have to defend themselves. An unwritten law of the universe.

[eric charles]

Feminist yuppie...Thank you Mr. Eric Charles
nobody ever called me that

Ok I can top that:

You said: Never would i use them to harm anyone ! Ever

You go hunting, you are hurting our beloved animal friends! :o

What am I to you now?

Hahahaha , most of you dont know that i am always sarcastic and joking hihihih albeit pretty hard to know when writing online

[Unified Serenity]

Hey Zamps, I think this conversation is sort of winding up the way our 3-way chat one did that started this whole thing huh? How's this for a bridge builder? We live in a free will universe where we live and die, moment by moment, lifetime after lifetime, millenium after millenium, by the choices we make. I contend that EVERYONE living now on this planet is here based on "prior" decisions. There is/was/will be no right or wrong, good or bad, wise or unwise...There simply is...

We're all here in this sacred time doing our own things, in our own ways, and it's thrilling! We've all got a front row seat for the big freak show, and by GOD are we getting our money's worth!

No-one now is going to convince anyone else to see things their way about firearms, no more so than the pros and cons of being a vegetarian, or what have you. I'm thinking this is what we need to get through our thick skulls full of mush: UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL. It's a VERY old game, it's one that WE lose every time it's played, and it's one we're ALL guilty of perpetuating, so maybe we should stop playing it, and finally move on?

Does this make any sense?

Cheers,
Fred

Great post Fred. You know I am pondering a time where the SHTF and we are gathered into small communities doing our best to rebuild our little worlds. We do the normal things, and end up having a nice farming community, some livestock, mill works, and things are going well. We gather and break bread from the flour we made from the grain we grew, and mixed with the milk we gained from the cows we care for and the eggs from the chickens we also care for. Our community is a happy place. We choose to not argue about guns, but some of us have them and some of us are very much against having them. Then one night a band of criminals who don't want to work and build a community, but find they can just rob and pillage from community to community comes into our happy group and attacks us. What I see happening is the wonderful peace and love no gun owning group approaches the animals attacking and says, "Can't we all just love one another and get along? We invite you to dine with us, and join our loving community." Out of the darkness a loud report is heard, and the loving member is shot between the eyes and the vandals run at our community. At this point, the non-gun owning weapon wielding individuals run behind the peace and love gun owners of the community for protection. These brave loving members stand their ground behind bulwarks and man the traps set up ahead of time and take out the criminals." It's a nice dream to believe mankind will live in peace and harmony, but when the SHTF as has happened vividly in the La riots, Hurricane Katrina aftermath which looks a lot like mad max society I want to protect my friends and family.

Peace through strength is not the same as Peace through subjugation and threatening your neighbors. When a criminal knows you will fight, they go to those who they know will not fight. To the victor goes the spoils is their attitude and why work when you can just pillage and live in your lowest base desires since law enforcement is gone and they can do what they will. Most of us don't live in that society, but right now there are woman and children being raped and killed by the strong who want to have their way. It's happening in some corners of our beautiful world, and it could happen here. I lived in Germany and love the Germans. I can tell you that prior to Hitler and the war, none of them could have imagined what what would happen in Germany to their friends and neighbors. I intend to speak up, to defend, and to live a life of honor. I do not intend to have anyone around me say:

"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."
by: Martin Niemöller

[NancyV]

Guns are useful tools but I guess my husband and I not only appreciate them as tools we probably qualify as "gun nuts". We really LIKE weapons and don't have nearly enough of them yet. We only have a few pistols, 3 or 4 rifles, a couple of shotguns, 2 or 3 crossbows, a compound bow, several swords and maybe 60 knives of all sizes and shapes. We also have hundreds of rounds of ammo (maybe a couple of thousand). We keep knives and guns in our bedside tables and in a couple of other rooms. I also carry 2 knives in my purse and my husband is never without a knife or two. If you're good with a knife it can offer a lot of protection but one would do well to remember the saying: never bring a knife to a gunfight.

Just because I have had years of meditation and travelling out of body and I know the power of love and how love can be used as a tool, especially on other planes of existence, doesn't mean I am silly enough to ignore the reality of this existence in this dimension. Humans can be very dangerous animals and having the best tools to deal with dangerous animals that might attack you is a wise thing to do. I would not hesitate to shoot anyone who was attacking me or my family and friends. If they die I would not feel guilty or overly upset. Physical death is not the worst thing that could happen, in fact we don't die we just go elsewhere. If someone makes the mistake of attacking us we will happily help them to move on into their next life.

Love can work here on the physical plane but everyone cannot use it effectively and many are resistant to receiving or being influenced by it. Yes there are stories where non violence works, but they are rare. Violence is a fact of life here on earth. I don't intend to get overly emotional about that reality. It's just the way things are.

[jagman]

The world is so close to being plunged into absolute chaos! Yesterday Israel Warned Iran with attack! Greece is in a state of financial crisis that
could bring down the Whole Worlds Economy! Syria is on fire! My government is using drones to kill people on a daily basis! Unprecedented
Earth quakes ! I could go on and on!

[Fred Steeves]

The world is so close to being plunged into absolute chaos! Yesterday Israel Warned Iran with attack! Greece is in a state of financial crisis that
could bring down the Whole Worlds Economy! Syria is on fire! My government is using drones to kill people on a daily basis! Unprecedented
Earth quakes ! I could go on and on!

That's exactly why cooler heads are needed to prevail during these trying times, to lead whatever fellow humans that are willing to listen to the lifeboats.

We are poised to snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat, and it's very likely no guns will be needed.

Let's think big!:)

THIS is why we are here. Let's roll...

[Maknocktomb]

Lord Sidious,

Germany in 1928 passed a law requiring gun registration. The German government at the time wanted to be able to control the Nazi''s and their gestapo that were causing trouble around the country. It worked to a point. When the Nazi's came into power they kept the law as they now knew where the guns were located. Around 1938 the Nazi's confiscated private firearms from the citizens of Germany first from their political rivals and than the Jews and anyone else they saw as a threat. Yes the guns were still made by the Germans but for the military.

[Hughe]

Canada knows for all intensive purposes they do not even need a millitary right now due to the fact that there is no way the US would let anyone march on them.

As for the forseeable future, Canada's only worrys in global affairs in the realm of tyranical demands,,,,,,are the demands the US will make on her.
U.S invaded Canada. Canadians kicked out U.S invaders thanks to the First Nations.
That's written in the history book. Before invention of the machine gun, the Native Americans were superior than the White newcomers in battle fields.

Peace and freedom comes from the power.

[taurad]

i'm sorry but i find a lot of posts here super-naive

also too black vs white (it's totally grey, again!)

also too pretentious, purposely so or unknowingly, by accident...


let's start with the later...whoever takes too much pride in hunting, unless u're using it as PRIMARY source of FOOD for your family in NEED (which i doubt, but won't exclude it!), stop it immediately...
mundane games are evil games...
the hunter-gatherer needed it, no farming or butcher-shop or Lablaws around, remember!!!
same with golfing, the biggest arable land-waster mundane-elitist bull**** game ever, that took an evil spin from poor shepherds hitting a rock in natural pasture highlands, without interfering/modifying it...
now you have rich pricks, buying off great arable lands, especially in the 3rd world countries, forcing the rest of the farmers on rice and potato lands...
it's ridiculous...

the concept of life is survival, right?...
well, when talking about weaponry as a defense mechanism in todays society, which one do you have in mind, 'cos it's a HUGE variable...
mine, where i used to live and come from, it's so rough, u have way better chances of survival if you just mind your business...
there's blood-vendetta societies, where u're just worsening the rate of survival, if you shot smn, even for self-defense or righteously defending your family...
that blood-code will haunt you and relatives for centuries...
and make no mistake, there's quite a lot of countries/societies on this thing...

the weapon, the way i see it, makes only sense in the mega-cities, metros, where the only person you know better is the mailman, mail-woman (even better ;))...
out, in the countryside, there's not supposed to be any animosity, small controlled environment...
yet, i do not know the stats, but would be surprised if it was the contrary...

to summarize, damned be the day an unbalanced human gets his hands on a weapon

(define UNBALANCED)

cheers

[modwiz]

i'm sorry but i find a lot of posts here super-naive

also too black vs white (it's totally grey, again!)

also too pretentious, purposely so or unknowingly, by accident...


let's start with the later...whoever takes too much pride in hunting, unless u're using it as PRIMARY source of FOOD for your family in NEED (which i doubt, but won't exclude it!), stop it immediately...
mundane games are evil games...
the hunter-gatherer needed it, no farming or butcher-shop or Lablaws around, remember!!!
same with golfing, the biggest arable land-waster mundane-elitist bull**** game ever, that took an evil spin from poor shepherds hitting a rock in natural pasture highlands, without interfering/modifying it...
now you have rich pricks, buying off great arable lands, especially in the 3rd world countries, forcing the rest of the farmers on rice and potato lands...
it's ridiculous...

the concept of life is survival, right?...
well, when talking about weaponry as a defense mechanism in todays society, which one do you have in mind, 'cos it's a HUGE variable...
mine, where i used to live and come from, it's so rough, u have way better chances of survival if you just mind your business...
there's blood-vendetta societies, where u're just worsening the rate of survival, if you shot smn, even for self-defense or righteously defending your family...
that blood-code will haunt you and relatives for centuries...
and make no mistake, there's quite a lot of countries/societies on this thing...

the weapon, the way i see it, makes only sense in the mega-cities, metros, where the only person you know better is the mailman, mail-woman (even better ;))...
out, in the countryside, there's not supposed to be any animosity, small controlled environment...
yet, i do not know the stats, but would be surprised if it was the contrary...

to summarize, damned be the day an unbalanced human gets his hands on a weapon

(define UNBALANCED)

cheers

Your comment on blood-vendettas is something few either know about or think about and you are 100% correct in pointing out the snowball turning into a life consuming beast in such societies. Thank you for bringing some perspective and allowing us to know that certain musings do not work in all situations. The big picture always enhances wisdom.

[Mandala]

Well guys, I guess the people who were wondering who owned guns, now knows.
If I were fishing for info, it is laid out pretty well right here to TPTB, or any alphabet agency.

[modwiz]

Well guys, I guess the people who were wondering who owned guns, now knows.
If I were fishing for info, it is laid out pretty well right here to TPTB, or any alphabet agency.

Yes. There are advantages to a "Mexican Stand Off". Nobody gets hurt. Underwear can be laundered. :p

[Arc]

Recent history has shown that when guns are outlawed for the populace governments take over and the people not only loose personal freedom but their lives as well. A good example is Germany in the early 1930's. After the Nazi's came into power they outlawed guns. Once they had control no one could stop them and they had a free hand in purging the local population (http://usa-the-republic.com/jurisprudentia/firearms_1.html). Other governments around the world have outlawed gun ownership and the people have suffered. Whether you agree or not, it's an interesting lesson in history. Something to think about...(http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1823003/posts)

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

In Switzerland every home has a firearm and the people are trained to use it. It is interesting that you do not hear much about gun violence or crime in Switzerland. The cities in the U.S. with the strictest gun control laws have the most violent crime. As a previous Avalon member mentioned, the criminals always seem to have a gun. I am all for non-violence and would not want to be in a position to have to use excessive force, I would try all the spiritual knowledge I know to prevent it. However, I will protect my family and myself. Would you go through the Serengeti unarmed with your family? Or would you protect yourself and family from the dangerous indigenous lifeforms (Lions etc...)?

Awesome post!!! ... and thanks for reading my thoughts. ;)

Actually, I wanted to contribute a similar themed post, but was not able to pull all the facts together so well, as you have.

The theme is - when people's rights to defend themselves are removed - genocides happen under the emboldened tyranny.

Hmmm.. how is that for a correlation?

[Lord Sidious]

Lord Sidious,

Germany in 1928 passed a law requiring gun registration. The German government at the time wanted to be able to control the Nazi''s and their gestapo that were causing trouble around the country. It worked to a point. When the Nazi's came into power they kept the law as they now knew where the guns were located. Around 1938 the Nazi's confiscated private firearms from the citizens of Germany first from their political rivals and than the Jews and anyone else they saw as a threat. Yes the guns were still made by the Germans but for the military.

Erm, no, the everyday German still had guns in 1945 when the allies took control of Germany.


History of firearms restrictions in Germany
[edit]
Restrictions imposed by the treaty of Versailles

In 1919 and 1920, to stabilize the country and in part to comply with the Treaty of Versailles, the German Weimar government passed very strict gun ownership restrictions. Article 169 of the Treaty of Versailles stated, "Within two months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, German arms, munitions, and war material, including anti-aircraft material, existing in Germany in excess of the quantities allowed, must be surrendered to the Governments of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers to be destroyed or rendered useless."[1]

In 1919, the German government passed the Regulations on Weapons Ownership, which declared that "all firearms, as well as all kinds of firearms ammunition, are to be surrendered immediately."[2] Under the regulations, anyone found in possession of a firearm or ammunition was subject to five years' imprisonment and a fine of 100,000 marks.

On August 7, 1920, the German government enacted a second gun-regulation law called the Law on the Disarmament of the People. It put into effect the provisions of the Versailles Treaty in regard to the limit on military-type weapons.

In 1928, the German government enacted the Law on Firearms and Ammunition. This law relaxed gun restrictions and put into effect a strict firearm licensing scheme. Under this scheme, Germans could possess firearms, but they were required to have separate permits to do the following: own or sell firearms, carry firearms (including handguns), manufacture firearms, and professionally deal in firearms and ammunition. This law explicitly revoked the 1919 Regulations on Weapons Ownership, which had banned all firearms possession.

Stephen Halbrook writes about the German gun restriction laws in the 1919-1928 period, "Within a decade, Germany had gone from a brutal firearms seizure policy which, in times of unrest, entailed selective yet immediate execution for mere possession of a firearm, to a modern, comprehensive gun control law."[3]
[edit]
The 1938 German Weapons Act

The 1938 German Weapons Act, the precursor of the current weapons law, superseded the 1928 law. As under the 1928 law, citizens were required to have a permit to carry a firearm and a separate permit to acquire a firearm. Furthermore, the law restricted ownership of firearms to "...persons whose trustworthiness is not in question and who can show a need for a (gun) permit." Under the new law:
Gun restriction laws applied only to handguns, not to long guns or ammunition. Writes Prof. Bernard Harcourt of the University of Chicago, "The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as well as ammunition."[4]
The groups of people who were exempt from the acquisition permit requirement expanded. Holders of annual hunting permits, government workers, and NSDAP party members were no longer subject to gun ownership restrictions. Prior to the 1938 law, only officials of the central government, the states, and employees of the German Reichsbahn Railways were exempted.[5]
The age at which persons could own guns was lowered from 20 to 18.[5]
The firearms carry permit was valid for three years instead of one year.[5]
Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing or ownership of firearms and ammunition.[6]

Under both the 1928 and 1938 acts, gun manufacturers and dealers were required to maintain records with information about who purchased guns and the guns' serial numbers. These records were to be delivered to a police authority for inspection at the end of each year.

On November 11, 1938, the Minister of the Interior, Wilhelm Frick, passed Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons. This regulation effectively deprived all Jews of the right to possess firearms or other weapons.[7]
[edit]
Current laws

After 1945, the Allied Forces commanded the complete disarming of Germany. Even German police officers were initially not allowed to carry firearms. Private ownership of firearms was not allowed until after 1956. The legal status returned essentially to that of the Law on Firearms and Ammunition of 1928. The regulation of the matter was thoroughly revised in 1972, when the new restrictive Federal Weapons Act (Bundeswaffengesetz) became effective, partly as a reaction to the terror of the Red Army Faction.[8] It was developed in the Federal Weapons Act of 2002 and by amendments in 2008 and 2009. These laws were the result of a chain of school shootings in Erfurt, Emsdetten and Winnenden. They led to a public debate, in which blame was attributed to various elements of youth culture and society, including violent computer games, television programs, rock music and private gun ownership.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany
And that is wiki, which is in no way friendly to the NSDAP.


Well guys, I guess the people who were wondering who owned guns, now knows.
If I were fishing for info, it is laid out pretty well right here to TPTB, or any alphabet agency.

Erm, they already know what you have in the way of guns.
You might be shocked at how much ''they'' can find out about you, if they want/need to.

[Maknocktomb]

Guns were given to the citizens to fight the allies in 1944 as the Nazi's realized they could not win the war.

After it became clear, by March 1945, that the remaining German forces had no chance of stopping the Allied advance, Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels seized upon the idea of Werwolf, and began to foster the notion, primarily through Nazi radio broadcasts, that Werwolf was a clandestine guerrilla organization comprising irregular German partisans, similar to the many insurgency groups which the Germans had encountered in the nations they occupied during the war. Despite such propaganda, however, this was never the actual nature of Werwolf, which in reality was always intended to be a commando unit comprising uniformed troops. Another popular myth about Werwolf is that it was intended to continue fighting underground even after the surrender of the Nazi government and the German military. In fact, no effort was ever made by the Nazi leadership to develop an insurgency to continue fighting in the event of defeat, in large measure because Adolf Hitler, as well as other Nazi leaders, refused to believe that a German defeat was possible, and they regarded anyone who even discussed the possibility as defeatists and traitors. As a result, no contingency plans to deal with defeat were ever authorized. However, as a result of Goebbels' efforts, Werwolf had, and in many cases continues to have, a mythological reputation as having been an underground Nazi resistance movement, with some even claiming that Werwolf attacks continued for months, or even years, after the end of the war. Its perceived influence went far beyond its actual operations, especially after the dissolution of the Nazi regime.[2]
Historian Perry Biddiscombe has also asserted that Werwolf represented a re-emergence of a genuinely radical, social-revolutionary current within National Socialism, something which had been present in the movement in its early days but which had been suppressed following the Nazi assumption of power in 1933.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

[Lord Sidious]

Guns were given to the citizens to fight the allies in 1944 as the Nazi's realized they could not win the war.

After it became clear, by March 1945, that the remaining German forces had no chance of stopping the Allied advance, Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels seized upon the idea of Werwolf, and began to foster the notion, primarily through Nazi radio broadcasts, that Werwolf was a clandestine guerrilla organization comprising irregular German partisans, similar to the many insurgency groups which the Germans had encountered in the nations they occupied during the war. Despite such propaganda, however, this was never the actual nature of Werwolf, which in reality was always intended to be a commando unit comprising uniformed troops. Another popular myth about Werwolf is that it was intended to continue fighting underground even after the surrender of the Nazi government and the German military. In fact, no effort was ever made by the Nazi leadership to develop an insurgency to continue fighting in the event of defeat, in large measure because Adolf Hitler, as well as other Nazi leaders, refused to believe that a German defeat was possible, and they regarded anyone who even discussed the possibility as defeatists and traitors. As a result, no contingency plans to deal with defeat were ever authorized. However, as a result of Goebbels' efforts, Werwolf had, and in many cases continues to have, a mythological reputation as having been an underground Nazi resistance movement, with some even claiming that Werwolf attacks continued for months, or even years, after the end of the war. Its perceived influence went far beyond its actual operations, especially after the dissolution of the Nazi regime.[2]
Historian Perry Biddiscombe has also asserted that Werwolf represented a re-emergence of a genuinely radical, social-revolutionary current within National Socialism, something which had been present in the movement in its early days but which had been suppressed following the Nazi assumption of power in 1933.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

Now you are getting a bit rediculous.
We were talking about normal guns, not arming resistance units with automatic rifles and anti tank weapons.

[Nasu]

In my opinion, mad max type daydreams of which or what implement may be better given an unknown and unsavory future confrontation is navel gazing at its worst. As always, we will use what we have, as will everyone else. Clearly, the more prepared you can be mentally, the more adaptable to future change you will be.

The true warrior never wants for weapons…. N

[toothpick]

Grew up with guns huntng trapping etc.
It wasn,t something i wanted to do, but, that,s the family i was born into so everything seemed normal to me.
My Dad passed in my 10th year and it was my job for the next 3 years to help my grandpa with his trap line, which he checked everyday regardless of situation, i could not let this man down.
After a few years grandpa had enough of life on the trap line and finally gave it up in his 79th year and never mentioned it again. Only man i ever looked up to.
Gave up hunting myself 25 years ago, didn,t make any sense when i could buy free range beef from the farm next door..
But it is still a good idea to have some protection in responsible hands, for looking out for you and yours and bad situations that mght arise.
Like my poor Jack Russel terrier Harley who was attacked by a pack of wolves and they litterally tried to tear her apart, the devils.
I don,t know how she got away, but she is all stitched up and on the mend.
There is more than one reason to have protection.

[RMorgan]

Oh man! Sorry for your dog! She surely is a brave one and I hope she´s ok! :)

[Unified Serenity]

In my opinion, mad max type daydreams of which or what implement may be better given an unknown and unsavory future confrontation is navel gazing at its worst. As always, we will use what we have, as will everyone else. Clearly, the more prepared you can be mentally, the more adaptable to future change you will be.

The true warrior never wants for weapons…. N

I look at reality, and don't spend my time seeking ways to insult other people's pov's. Mental preparation while is all n good, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I would rather have some supplies and skills that are useful should the shtf. I will return to naval gazing and have a happy day, you can do the same.

[toothpick]

Thanks RMorgan.
She had 3 ckunks missing on one side and 2 on the other plus a few deep punctures.
I will never know how she got away.
That picture was last sunday nov.6th so as all can see she will be ok, appreciate your concern.
Lee

[butcherman]

when the western worlds infrastructure breaks down what will we eat then will we need to arm against hungry aggressors what do you think ?

We will stop at nothing to feed our own !!

Butcherman

[Unified Serenity]

It could be a difficult time should there be a disaster where food and basics are difficult to come by. We would hope that communities would work together as they have in the past to help each other. Some will and some won't has been the case in the past. Some will be too busy stealing HD tv's and X box sets. There is 1 days food on the shelves at grocery stores. There will be a rush to get as much food and water or don't forget the beer and other alcohol. The best bet is to avoid stores and wait for the people to calm down. Get to know your neighbors now, and build a good relationship with them which besides being the neighborly thing to do, but in a time of crisis it's just easier to work with people you know and trust than people you have only noticed as you drive to work every day.

I think we could see a lot of heroic behavior as well as some of the lower base behavior. That of course is all based on some catastrophe which may or may not happen. There are signs of economic collapse, weird stuff on our paper money showing disasters yet to happen, and rumblings of wars. We have earthquakes happening all over, and USGS deleting some of them at the Hoover Dam. So, are we going to continue on the road to prosperity another fifty years or are we on the brink of an economic meltdown which in the past tptb have decided a nice big war to recover the suffering economy? I don't know, but I am not willing to sit back and twiddle my thumbs.

[RMorgan]

More food for this thread:

j-q2zHIovOE

What do you think?

The boy was right to shoot the invaders to protect his younger sister?

What would the invaders do with the boy and his sister if he was not armed?

Was his father irresponsible to keep a loaded AR-15 assault rifle at home at the reach of his kids?

Could this story have a different ending?

Cheers,

Raf.

[Lord Sidious]

More food for this thread:

j-q2zHIovOE

What do you think?

The boy was right to shoot the invaders to protect his younger sister?

What would the invaders do with the boy and his sister if he was not armed?

Was his father irresponsible to keep a loaded AR-15 assault rifle at home at the reach of his kids?

Could this story have a different ending?

Cheers,

Raf.

I wouldn't even debate right or wrong about this one, it is evident, it is what it is.
He protected himself and his sister.

[Nasu]

In my opinion, mad max type daydreams of which or what implement may be better given an unknown and unsavory future confrontation is navel gazing at its worst. As always, we will use what we have, as will everyone else. Clearly, the more prepared you can be mentally, the more adaptable to future change you will be.

The true warrior never wants for weapons…. N

I look at reality, and don't spend my time seeking ways to insult other people's pov's. Mental preparation while is all n good, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I would rather have some supplies and skills that are useful should the shtf. I will return to naval gazing and have a happy day, you can do the same.

Desperate people will do things outside of their normal morals, it is good to be prepared. You are right of course, hope for the best but always have a plan for the worst... N

[Lord Sidious]

In my opinion, mad max type daydreams of which or what implement may be better given an unknown and unsavory future confrontation is navel gazing at its worst. As always, we will use what we have, as will everyone else. Clearly, the more prepared you can be mentally, the more adaptable to future change you will be.

The true warrior never wants for weapons…. N

I look at reality, and don't spend my time seeking ways to insult other people's pov's. Mental preparation while is all n good, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I would rather have some supplies and skills that are useful should the shtf. I will return to naval gazing and have a happy day, you can do the same.

Desperate people will do things outside of their normal morals, it is good to be prepared. You are right of course, hope for the best but always have a plan for the worst... N

Always keep a fully charged lightsabre handy.

[Calz]

Always keep a fully charged lightsabre handy.


Or ... two ...


11218

[RMorgan]

It would be nice to have a light saber indeed. It would be even nicer if it had some kind of protection device to prevent you to cut yourself in half while practicing with it... ;)

Maybe some DNA recognition device that would make you immune to your own light saber or something like that... :)

:focus:

[Lord Sidious]

Aha!
Jedi have entered the building.


http://www.theforce.net/episode2/newspics/lightscimitar.jpg

[Zampano]

Burglars usually come to steal stuff, not to hurt people. What they are doing in a situation when people are at home?
a) run away
b) scare the people away and lock them in a room
c) hurt/kill them

Probably they would do a or b, but who knows.

Besides that...it its an enormous stress situation when somebody is breaking into your house. A place where you think you feel safe and fine.
They get a severe mental damage.
I think it takes a long time to recover from such an event.


This boy did the right thing in his situation, no doubt about that.

I am quite sure there are numerous other cases, where father shot son/son shot father/mother shot dog and so on ...by accident
There are by the way-google it

Was it responsible from the father to keep the gun and ammo in reach of his children?
I say no

Where do you actually get your light sabers from, Lord Sidious? And do you grow your carrots in your garden?

[Lord Sidious]

Burglars usually come to steal stuff, not to hurt people. What they are doing in a situation when people are at home?
a) run away
b) scare the people away and lock them in a room
c) hurt/kill them

Probably they would do a or b, but who knows.

Besides that...it its an enormous stress situation when somebody is breaking into your house. A place where you think you feel safe and fine.
They get a severe mental damage.
I think it takes a long time to recover from such an event.


This boy did the right thing in his situation, no doubt about that.

I am quite sure there are numerous other cases, where father shot son/son shot father/mother shot dog and so on ...by accident
There are by the way-google it

Was it responsible from the father to keep the gun and ammo in reach of his children?
I say no

Where do you actually get your light sabers from, Lord Sidious? And do you grow your carrots in your garden?

We have to construct our own lightsabres to pass one level of training.
And I get the carrots from people who have them, but no weapons. ;)

[DNA]

In my opinion, mad max type daydreams of which or what implement may be better given an unknown and unsavory future confrontation is navel gazing at its worst. As always, we will use what we have, as will everyone else. Clearly, the more prepared you can be mentally, the more adaptable to future change you will be.

The true warrior never wants for weapons…. N

I look at reality, and don't spend my time seeking ways to insult other people's pov's. Mental preparation while is all n good, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I would rather have some supplies and skills that are useful should the shtf. I will return to naval gazing and have a happy day, you can do the same.

Wow Serenity, this thread has shown me a hard core bad ass side to you I never knew existed. :)
And here I was thinking you would be doing a lotus position meditating in the internment camps. I didn't know you and your husband were going to be hunkered down in the mountains with me yelling "WOLVERINES",,,LOL,,,:)
.
.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoM6IFiyRjE&feature=related

[Zampano]

@ toothpick

I am sorry to hear the story from your harley.
I had to save the dog which is mine now from people who wanted to shoot him, when I was living in Southern Italy. That it is pretty common in some countries.
He was a puppy at that time and the people randomly killed dogs in that area, because they didnt feel safe.
So this puppy dog got shot with a shotgun in his torso and ran away and came to me.
So these man said: "If you want to take him, do it, if not we kill him.
Well he is my dog now.

[toothpick]

Hi Zampano.
Sorry to hear about your troubles, but what a lovely ending.
We are kindred spirits for sure, brother

[jagman]

This thread is so juicy,I gotta keep it going lol I wish I owned a tank! lol

[Zampano]

And I wish to have an army of white unicorns dancing on a rainbow ;-)

[Unified Serenity]

And I wish to have an army of white unicorns dancing on a rainbow ;-)

Right now I'm in love with alpacas. They are adorable, don't spit as much like llamas, have luxurious fur/hair stuff growing on them, and they hum! I want two alpacas for christmas, but my wife says that I can't have em until I win the lottery an fence off another two acres with lots of grass and a building to keep the buggers in at night! I found a rescue society and am making plans...... shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't tell Khaleesi WEG


nXSw0fKYuhU

[Maia Gabrial]

I owned a "Saturday Night Special" for about a month because I wanted something for protection. But when I got it home and I held it in my hands for awhile, it just didn't feel right. So, I sold it to a gun collector and felt the weight lifted off my shoulders. What was I thinking?
If you think this kind of fear, then you'll certainly attract it to you.

[Axman]

l
Lawyers Guns and Butter Two of these I like and own.

The Axman;)

[Fred Steeves]

I owned a "Saturday Night Special" for about a month because I wanted something for protection. But when I got it home and I held it in my hands for awhile, it just didn't feel right. So, I sold it to a gun collector and felt the weight lifted off my shoulders. What was I thinking?
If you think this kind of fear, then you'll certainly attract it to you.


Maia, I love you to death, but this kind of statement continues to frustrate me. Just because one may have a means of protection in this realm we all find ourselves in for various reasons, does NOT mean one is cowering in some corner of their house with a quivering pistol in fear. Nothing of the sort I can assure you.

This may sound like some alien jargon for those who harbor mis-conceptions of those who have guns, but I'll help a trapped wasp out of my house to be free before I will kill it.

I live very happily in a no fear household...

Cheers,
Fred

[Zampano]

Alpacas are great and really cute...especially when they look like this

http://www.picshag.com/pics/112009/alpaca-worm-big.jpg

[RMorgan]

Alpacas are great and really cute...especially when they look like this

OMG! If I saw a animal like this while walking on the woods I would run away at a million miles per hour!!!

[Zampano]

Haha---true...it looks...creepy...somehow.
Like a big fat hairy worm with the face of a seal

[Unified Serenity]

Sooooooooooo adorable, how could you not just wanna pet and cuddle up with an Alpace. My other really really fun pet to get is a hedgehog! I don't see a reason to have one, but they are very cute. To stay on topic, maybe I could line up hedgehogs as a deterrent to barefoot intruders:

nw-IAYxu5uo

[blufire]

Maia, I am not aiming this necessarily directly at you . . . it just what you have said here is a perfect example of a way of thinking that frustrates me. Again this is not directed at you because I see this quite often.

If owning this gun was such a negative or repulsive thing to you and if I’m interpreting correctly with what you said a “bad thing” . . . . . why did you sell it to a gun collector??

If the gun was such an evil or bad thing why not destroy and dispose of it??? Instead you “profited” from the sell it and promoted its continued existence. What if the gun collector turned right around and sold it to someone who would use it for evil or negative reasons?

One of the reasons my avatar is “blufire” is I’m very cool and level headed. I do not anger quickly and very pragmatic. I feel strongly it is my responsibility to take care of myself and my children and those who will brought within my circle of protection and care. I work very hard to think carefully through every possible scenario that I may face . . . now and in the very near future.

I also understand clearly that there are those who are very passive and work from more of an “emotional” place. If such a person is brought into my circle of care, then I will honor that person for who they truly are. I would never have the expectation that this type of person should be out front if an emergency were to happen. I would find a place for them to be effective and responsible and validated.

I have always felt I am the type of woman that would have been on the first boat coming to the Americas or the first woman on the first wagon exploring the great Out West. I am the type of woman that stands shoulder to shoulder with her man carving out a path for a more “civilized society”. This does not make me better or worse . . . it is just who I am

So, just as I honor and respect those who are more passive and emotionally based please respect and honor me and others who are more assertive and pragmatic. Just as we need you to complete the full realm of humanity . . . . . you need us.




I owned a "Saturday Night Special" for about a month because I wanted something for protection. But when I got it home and I held it in my hands for awhile, it just didn't feel right. So, I sold it to a gun collector and felt the weight lifted off my shoulders. What was I thinking?
If you think this kind of fear, then you'll certainly attract it to you.

[eric charles]

Guns were given to the citizens to fight the allies in 1944 as the Nazi's realized they could not win the war.

After it became clear, by March 1945, that the remaining German forces had no chance of stopping the Allied advance, Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels seized upon the idea of Werwolf, and began to foster the notion, primarily through Nazi radio broadcasts, that Werwolf was a clandestine guerrilla organization comprising irregular German partisans, similar to the many insurgency groups which the Germans had encountered in the nations they occupied during the war. Despite such propaganda, however, this was never the actual nature of Werwolf, which in reality was always intended to be a commando unit comprising uniformed troops. Another popular myth about Werwolf is that it was intended to continue fighting underground even after the surrender of the Nazi government and the German military. In fact, no effort was ever made by the Nazi leadership to develop an insurgency to continue fighting in the event of defeat, in large measure because Adolf Hitler, as well as other Nazi leaders, refused to believe that a German defeat was possible, and they regarded anyone who even discussed the possibility as defeatists and traitors. As a result, no contingency plans to deal with defeat were ever authorized. However, as a result of Goebbels' efforts, Werwolf had, and in many cases continues to have, a mythological reputation as having been an underground Nazi resistance movement, with some even claiming that Werwolf attacks continued for months, or even years, after the end of the war. Its perceived influence went far beyond its actual operations, especially after the dissolution of the Nazi regime.[2]
Historian Perry Biddiscombe has also asserted that Werwolf represented a re-emergence of a genuinely radical, social-revolutionary current within National Socialism, something which had been present in the movement in its early days but which had been suppressed following the Nazi assumption of power in 1933.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

Now you are getting a bit rediculous.
We were talking about normal guns, not arming resistance units with automatic rifles and anti tank weapons.


LMAO good one sith

[Carmody]

More food for this thread:

j-q2zHIovOE

What do you think?

The boy was right to shoot the invaders to protect his younger sister?

What would the invaders do with the boy and his sister if he was not armed?

Was his father irresponsible to keep a loaded AR-15 assault rifle at home at the reach of his kids?

Could this story have a different ending?

Cheers,

Raf.

I wouldn't even debate right or wrong about this one, it is evident, it is what it is.
He protected himself and his sister.

Yes, IMO and IME..this could be used as a political announcement for the given group(s) that seize upon this happenstance.

For it is only a happenstance. Nothing more.

If the rifle had been fully secured in a unreachable way, then it never would have made the news ..in the fashion it did. It would have been used and 'paraded about' differently.

In the same way that if a person ends up having a few dollars in a level that is out of their norm range... and thier slimier acquaintances show up in their life to help them spend it - - when any strong 'differential from the norm' like this occurs..the given groups line up to try and spin that energy peak or difference...for their desires and causes they associate with.

Parasites, for the most part.

[Lisab]

When my six year old was a toddler I rather pompously declared to everyone no toy guns please. The next day he shot me with a carrot.

[Calz]

When my six year old was a toddler I rather pompously declared to everyone no toy guns please. The next day he shot me with a carrot.

No doubt there has been some watching over your shoulder at Sid's posts??? :)

[Lisab]

When my six year old was a toddler I rather pompously declared to everyone no toy guns please. The next day he shot me with a carrot.

No doubt there has been some watching over your shoulder at Sid's posts??? :)

Courgettes and sticks too. I just gave him his guns back. It is light sabres these days tho. Lord Sid would be proud.

[Carmody]

When my six year old was a toddler I rather pompously declared to everyone no toy guns please. The next day he shot me with a carrot.

No doubt there has been some watching over your shoulder at Sid's posts??? :)

Courgettes and sticks too. I just gave him his guns back. It is light sabres these days tho. Lord Sid would be proud.

when I was 6 years old I had a Pair of colt peacemaker 6-shooter capguns made of metal. Double slung.

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/img/t/TwoGunKid.gif

and the rawhide jacket to match.