Reality ... What is real ?

[Kiki]

Hello Avalonians,

I was conversating with an acquaintance a few moments ago, I was impressed with the fact that he considered himself a realist and admitted to be narrow minded. How does that happen? How can someone be a realist and not open to everything that can be going on around us on this planet and out of it. Shouldn't they be called unrealists??? I'm trying to find out what is real around me and still haven't got a clue but that's why I'm here ;-) !!

I would like to read some of your points of view on what is or isn't real!

If this topic has been discussed already sorry I missed it !

Please excuse me if my post isn't as great as some other ones I've read... I'm not to good with posting!

[music]

As soon as we have one single experience that doesn't equate to convential reality, our idea of what constitutes reality must be called into question. Is reality those things that are impermanent, and disolve with time (like our bodies), or is it those things which seem to exist independently of space and time? I offer one of many experiences I have had that are outside of convential reality.

When I was a teenager, my mother was dying of cancer. We were very close, but in the final two weeks of her life, when she went in to hospital to die, I was unable to go and visit her. I was scared, and I didn't want to see her full of tubes and maintained by machines. This was hard for me, and I felt incredibly guilty.

One morning I had a vision of my mother. She came to me, and held me, and told me that she understood. That she loved me. That everything was OK. I looked at the clock and it was 4.00 am. I knew that she was dead. At around 7.00 am, my grandmother came in to my room to tell me that my mother had died that morning at 4.00 am.

This was not "real" as many understand it, but to me (who was by now used to things like this) it was more real than the impermenent shells we inhabit.

[cheez_2806]

>>>> for someone to admit that they are narrowminded and is a realist and have no problem with it (I'm not saying there is a problem with it but like he doesn't view it to be a problem so that's good in a way...)

Is he arrogant and someone that is confident?...

In your conversations did you guys go through what he considered a realist to be and what he thinks real is??

[sdafnom]

Your mind makes it real...

Stavros

[another bob]

Greetings, Friend!

As our awareness changes, so too does that which we consider to be real. In this regard, everybody has a different interpretation about what's real, depending upon their angle of vision (which is directly related to their level of awareness). Consequently, there is no such thing as objective reality. What we call objective reality is more like consensus reality, and we've seen how over time that changes.
So, is there no absolute reality then? Well, this is something we must find out for ourselves, but here's the catch -- the mind that we rely on to tell us what's ultimately real is not equiped for the task, by its very nature. How can that which comes after (transient 3D mind) have any knowledge about that which pertains prior to its arrival? To experience what's real, what we need to do is to go directly to the source of mind and abide there. Our efforts can take us only that far. From there, what's real takes over and pulls us into itself. Then we have no question about what's real or not. Everything is transparently obvious, just as it is.

Blessings!

[Kiki]

Yes we did, in his opinion, what is real is the system we live in. That there is no way to changer this chaos we live in in Greece right now and that people can't change their ways into becoming better loving beings.

[Healthy Skeptic]

A 'realist' is what an 'idealist' calls a 'cynic'.

[Tony]

hello Kiki,
You will have to make your own mind up about this, as there are subtle differences of view.
So, what is real must be unchanging. All things change, all concepts change.
However what is aware of these things that change is PURE consciousness.

Pure consciousness does not change, it gradually gets revealed when our obscuration
Are peeled away. This take practice, it is in our own hands....or rather mind.

The date is immaterial. Pure consciousness is in timeless time.

Regards,
Tony

[Lord Sidious]

Yes we did, in his opinion, what is real is the system we live in. That there is no way to changer this chaos we live in in Greece right now and that people can't change their ways into becoming better loving beings.

Aha!
That isn't realism, that is nuggetry.

[Tony]

The physical reality was created because of our thoughts and emotions we carry around with us, and will not let go.
There are sneaky fellows who think they run this planet, utilise this cling we have to our thoughts and emotions.

These people know how to make you angry, sentimental or look in the wrong direction! They can make you worship anything.

Know your own mind, and what has been placed there!

[Camilo]

Each of us live in our own picture of reality, and the universe manifest what's real to us. So enjoy your reality, you created it.

[jessamy99]

What is real is that which creates the universe, that which watches the show.
When you experience something, what sees that experience and the reaction to it?
When you think something, what watches that thought?
When you speak, what is it that says "I"?

That is the consciousness within everything, so hard to keep in tune with but real nevertheless.

With love, Jessamy.

[eric charles]

Hmmmmm excellent question , after 31 years im still trying to figure that out hahahah

[mosquito]

Yup, 53 years down the road and I know less and less as the days go by. I'm inclined to the view that different things are real for different people.

Excellent question Kiki, and don't be too concerned about your posts, you express yourself clearly which, to me, is more important than trying to write like a university professor !;)

[Carmody]

The only thing that one can tend to know 'exists', is the personal aspect of being a point in observation. A floating observation deck, in the moment of now. A reaction and interaction, you be. The rest - is suspect.

[Carmody]

the third time I post this, in 48 hours. However, it fits, again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Max Planck. The father of Quantum Physics. This should clarify things a bit:

" I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness." -- Max Planck

and:

"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."

Which brings you to the analytical conundrum of Godel's Incompleteness theorem, as a social and human structure, pulled from it's mathematical world and paralleled into the life of humans.

More from Max:

"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."

Whoa.

Which is why I said, as simply as possible, in terms that such similar thinkers could 'take in':

'Any observable differential is encoded and translational in nature.'

[Kiki]

Yes we did, in his opinion, what is real is the system we live in. That there is no way to changer this chaos we live in in Greece right now and that people can't change their ways into becoming better loving beings.

Aha!
That isn't realism, that is nuggetry.

Thanks!!
Exactly what I thought!

[Kiki]

The physical reality was created because of our thoughts and emotions we carry around with us, and will not let go.
There are sneaky fellows who think they run this planet, utilise this cling we have to our thoughts and emotions.

These people know how to make you angry, sentimental or look in the wrong direction! They can make you worship anything.

Know your own mind, and what has been placed there!

Very nicely said Tony! Thank you!

[Kiki]

What is real is that which creates the universe, that which watches the show.
When you experience something, what sees that experience and the reaction to it?
When you think something, what watches that thought?
When you speak, what is it that says "I"?

That is the consciousness within everything, so hard to keep in tune with but real nevertheless.

With love, Jessamy.

Thank you very much Jessamy!!
More love back at you!!

[Kiki]

I think in time it'll be clearer to us!! Time helps ! we just keep searching and listening to our teachers!

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I think in time it'll be clearer to us!! Time helps ! we just keep searching and listening to our teachers!



Yup, 53 years down the road and I know less and less as the days go by. I'm inclined to the view that different things are real for different people.

Excellent question Kiki, and don't be too concerned about your posts, you express yourself clearly which, to me, is more important than trying to write like a university professor !;)

Thank you that helps me be more confortable!

best regards Kiki

[Centauro]

I believe with the first post in regards to the friend.... But to me what is real is what I feel inside, in the heart and in my soul, and due to that what I perceive of the world.

[NeverMind]

Kiki, if your acquaintance is philosophically inclined - or simply likes to reason in philosophical terms (not necessarily the same thing : )) - then he may have been using the term "realism" in a strictly philosophical sense, referring to what would be more accurately called "naive realism" (because there are several varieties of "realism" in philosophy).
I am pointing this out only because it does make a difference as far as your interpretation of his view is concerned.

As to what "realty" is - it would perhaps be more accurate to put the quotation marks like this: what reality "is" :) - I won't even go there, because it would be objectively useless.
There are as many views on reality as there are people.
Have your pick. ;)

[Centauro]

As to what "realty" is - it would perhaps be more accurate to put the quotation marks like this: what reality "is" :) - I won't even go there, because it would be objectively useless.
There are as many views on reality as there are people.
Have your pick. ;)



This makes so much sense, I won't say more

[Lord Sidious]

Kiki, if your acquaintance is philosophically inclined - or simply likes to reason in philosophical terms (not necessarily the same thing : )) - then he may have been using the term "realism" in a strictly philosophical sense, referring to what would be more accurately called "naive realism" (because there are several varieties of "realism" in philosophy).
I am pointing this out only because it does make a difference as far as your interpretation of his view is concerned.

As to what "realty" is - it would perhaps be more accurate to put the quotation marks like this: what reality "is" :) - I won't even go there, because it would be objectively useless.
There are as many views on reality as there are people.
Have your pick. ;)

Reality depends very much on which googles an individual is wearing at the time.

[jorr lundstrom]

Im not, and not wot I construct and imagine, but the entity, the force that precede I am

and dwells in eternity ie no time seems to be real enough. LOL

And this is certainly not a thing, its like a nothingness and still......... LOL

[Healthy Skeptic]

Reality depends very much on which googles an individual is wearing at the time.

Or 'hats'!

[TraineeHuman]

The question: "What is real?", or "What exists?", is one of the two fundamental questions that philosophy devotes its attention to answering properly.

To cut a very long story short, philosophers eventually proved the answer depends on what sorts of things you pre-suppose about what the entire universe is like. It depends entirely on what lens you choose to view the universe with. However, philosophers eventually discovered there are basically only two types of lenses that work.

One type of lens is the one that says that only what is measurable, or directly known through the five physical senses, is real. This is the lens used by science, except not by quantum physics.

The other type of lens is the one that says that what is real is essentially whatever makes the fullest sense in the given particular situation. That isn't nearly as arbitrary as it may sound.

One thing to notice with the second type of lens is that your choice of language, or your methods of communicating meaning in the broadest possible sense of "communicating", has a huge effect on, and strongly shapes, what it is you then see as real in any given situation. As Marshall McLuhan said, exaggerating more than a little: "The medium is the message." (Or maybe he also meant "the massage", if you like.)

Another thing to notice is that maybe there are different levels or flavours of reality. Maybe some things are more fully real than others, but those others aren't totally just illusions either. Even pure fantasies usually make at least some sense.

In the twentieth century it was also proved, by mathematicians and physicists and philosophers, that reality is often random or arbitrary in how it "chooses" to hang together;
that some questions about reality which make perfect sense can absolutely never be answered by anyone, ever;
that reality is full of huge ambiguities and incompleteness and indeterminacies, and paradoxes -- small contradictions -- everywhere;
and that reality is a story parts of which each one of us is always in the process of rewriting and making small additions to.

[sdafnom]

Reality depends very much on which googles an individual is wearing at the time.

Dark one, as usual right to the point.
But which goggles are you referring to? The external ones or the internal ones? Or both?
Which is stronger? My take is the internal ones, since perception shapes our reality.
Change your perception and automatically your reality is changed.
How to do that? Knowledge. This is what we all seek. Right?
This is why, we are on such forums as Avalon.

Educate ourselves via external input and use it to look within...

Stavros

[TraineeHuman]

Let me comment on the phrase “creating a reality”, or “creating a different timeline”. When Bill Gates invented MS-DOS, he created an addition to reality, but not “an” entire reality. And he only created something after a few months’ intensive work, followed by manufacture and marketing to make its impact tangible. He had created no partial reality when he initially conceived of DOS. Certainly, though, reality as a whole was changed on the planet because the PC became available as a result of his work and that of marketers.

Unfortunately, some people use the phrase “I’m creating a different reality” when they want to lie. Actually, denial is just a defense mechanism. It takes you – and anybody who believes your lie – further from reality. Again, some people like to imagine that if you decide to get out of bed one second later, -- hey presto! you’ve created a different timeline. Not true. Maybe the Rothschild family, or some group of sufficiently many powerful people could create a different timeline on the planet by their decisions, but not you when you choose to rest in bed for one second longer.