Just a Shotgun ...

[Calz]

You're sound asleep when you hear a thump outside your bedroom door.
Half-awake, and nearly paralyzed with fear, you hear muffled whispers.

At least two people have broken into your house and are moving your way.

With your heart pumping, you reach down beside your bed and pick up your shotgun.

You rack a shell into the chamber, then inch toward the door and open it.

In the darkness, you make out two shadows.

One holds something that looks like a crowbar.

When the intruder brandishes it as if to strike, you raise the shotgun and fire.

The blast knocks both thugs to the floor.

One writhes and screams while the second man crawls to the front door and lurches outside.

As you pick up the telephone to call police, you know you're in trouble.

In your country, most guns were outlawed years before, and the few that are privately owned are so stringently regulated as to make them useless..

Yours was never registered.

Police arrive and inform you that the second burglar has died.

They arrest you for First Degree Murder and Illegal Possession of a Firearm.

When you talk to your attorney, he tells you not to worry: authorities will probably plea the case down to manslaughter.

"What kind of sentence will I get?" you ask.

"Only ten-to-twelve years," he replies, as if that's nothing.

"Behave yourself, and you'll be out in seven."

The next day, the shooting is the lead story in the local newspaper.

Somehow, you're portrayed as an eccentric vigilante while the two men you shot are represented as choirboys.

Their friends and relatives can't find an unkind word to say about them..

Buried deep down in the article, authorities acknowledge that both "victims" have been arrested numerous times.

But the next day's headline says it all:

"Lovable Rogue Son Didn't Deserve to Die."

The thieves have been transformed from career criminals into Robin Hood-type pranksters..

As the days wear on, the story takes wings.

The national media picks it up, then the international media.

The surviving burglar has become a folk hero.

Your attorney says the thief is preparing to sue you, and he'll probably win.

The media publishes reports that your home has been burglarized several times in the past and that you've been critical of local police for their lack of effort in apprehending the suspects.

After the last break-in, you told your neighbor that you would be prepared next time.

The District Attorney uses this to allege that you were lying in wait for the burglars.

A few months later, you go to trial.

The charges haven't been reduced, as your lawyer had so confidently predicted.

When you take the stand, your anger at the injustice of it all works against you..

Prosecutors paint a picture of you as a mean, vengeful man.

It doesn't take long for the jury to convict you of all charges.

The judge sentences you to life in prison.


This case really happened.

On August 22, 1999, Tony Martin of Emneth, Norfolk , England , killed one burglar and wounded a second.

In April, 2000, he was convicted and is now serving a life term...


How did it become a crime to defend one's own life in the once great British Empire ?


It started with the Pistols Act of 1903.

This seemingly reasonable law forbade selling pistols to minors or felons and established that handgun sales were to be made only to those who had a license.
The Firearms Act of 1920 expanded licensing to include not only handguns but all firearms except shotguns..

Later laws passed in 1953 and 1967 outlawed the carrying of any weapon by private citizens and mandated the registration of all shotguns.

Momentum for total handgun confiscation began in earnest after the Hungerford mass shooting in 1987.

Michael Ryan, a mentally disturbed man with a Kalashnikov rifle, walked down the streets shooting everyone he saw.

When the smoke cleared, 17 people were dead.

The British public, already de-sensitized by eighty years of "gun control", demanded even tougher restrictions.

(The seizure of all privately owned handguns was the objective even though Ryan used a rifle.)

Nine years later, at Dunblane , Scotland ,
Thomas Hamilton used a semi-au tom atic weapon to murder 16 children and a teacher at a public school.

For many years, the media had portrayed all gun owners as mentally unstable, or worse, criminals.
Now the press had a real kook with which to beat up law-abiding gun owners.
Day after day, week after week, the media gave up all pretense of objectivity and demanded a total ban on all handguns.
The Dunblane Inquiry, a few months later, sealed the fate of the few sidearms still owned by private citizens.

During the years in which the British government incrementally took away most gun rights, the notion that a citizen had the right to armed self-defense came to be seen as vigilantism.
Authorities refused to grant gun licenses to people who were threatened, claiming that self-defense was no longer considered a reason to own a gun.
Citizens who shot burglars or robbers or rapists were charged while the real criminals were released.


Indeed, after the Martin shooting, a police spokesman was quoted as saying,
"We cannot have people
take the law into their own hands."

All of Martin's neighbors
had been robbed numerous times,
and several elderly people were severely injured
in beatings by young thugs
who had no fear of the consequences.
Martin himself, a collector of antiques,
had seen most of his collection
trashed or stolen by burglars.

When the Dunblane Inquiry ended,
citizens who owned handguns
were given three months to turn them over
to local authorities.

Being good British subjects,
most people obeyed the law.
The few who didn't were visited by police
and threatened with ten-year prison sentences
if they didn't comply.

Police later bragged that they'd taken
nearly 200,000 handguns from private citizens.

How did the authorities know who had handguns?
The guns had been registered and licensed.
Kind of like cars. Sound familiar?


WAKE UP AMERICA ; THIS IS WHY OUR FOUNDING FATHERS PUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT IN OUR CONSTITUTION.


"...It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

If you think this is important, please forward to everyone you know.

You had better wake up, because Obama is doing this very same thing,
over here, if he can get it done.

And there are stupid people in congress and on the street that will go right along with him.

[Lord Sidious]

All of those laws are ultra vires as they contradict the Bill of Rights 1688 which says in part, ''The subjects that are protestants may have arms for their self defence, suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law'' and as this act is entrenched law, any act that contradicts it must be ultra vires.



BILL OF RIGHTS
[1689]
An Act Declaring the Rights and Liberties of the Subject and Settling the Succession of the Crown

Whereas the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons assembled at Westminster, lawfully, fully and freely representing all the estates of the people of this realm, did upon the thirteenth day of February in the year of our Lord one thousand six hundred eighty-eight [old style date] present unto their Majesties, then called and known by the names and style of William and Mary, prince and princess of Orange, being present in their proper persons, a certain declaration in writing made by the said Lords and Commons in the words following, viz.:
Whereas the late King James the Second, by the assistance of divers evil counsellors, judges and ministers employed by him, did endeavour to subvert and extirpate the Protestant religion and the laws and liberties of this kingdom;
By assuming and exercising a power of dispensing with and suspending of laws and the execution of laws without consent of Parliament; By committing and prosecuting divers worthy prelates for humbly petitioning to be excused from concurring to the said assumed power;
By issuing and causing to be executed a commission under the great seal for erecting a court called the Court of Commissioners for Ecclesiastical Causes;
By levying money for and to the use of the Crown by pretence of prerogative for other time and in other manner than the same was granted by Parliament;
By raising and keeping a standing army within this kingdom in time of peace without consent of Parliament, and quartering soldiers contrary to law;
By causing several good subjects being Protestants to be disarmed at the same time when papists were both armed and employed contrary to law;
By violating the freedom of election of members to serve in Parliament;
By prosecutions in the Court of King's Bench for matters and causes cognizable only in Parliament, and by divers other arbitrary and illegal courses;
And whereas of late years partial corrupt and unqualified persons have been returned and served on juries in trials, and particularly divers jurors in trials for high treason which were not freeholders;
And excessive bail hath been required of persons committed in criminal cases to elude the benefit of the laws made for the liberty of the subjects;
And excessive fines have been imposed;
And illegal and cruel punishments inflicted;
And several grants and promises made of fines and forfeitures before any conviction or judgment against the persons upon whom the same were to be levied;
All which are utterly and directly contrary to the known laws and statutes and freedom of this realm;

And whereas the said late King James the Second having abdicated the government and the throne being thereby vacant, his Highness the prince of Orange (whom it hath pleased Almighty God to make the glorious instrument of delivering this kingdom from popery and arbitrary power) did (by the advice of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and divers principal persons of the Commons) cause letters to be written to the Lords Spiritual and Temporal being Protestants, and other letters to the several counties, cities, universities, boroughs and cinque ports, for the choosing of such persons to represent them as were of right to be sent to Parliament, to meet and sit at Westminster upon the two and twentieth day of January in this year one thousand six hundred eighty and eight [old style date], in order to such an establishment as that their religion, laws and liberties might not again be in danger of being subverted, upon which letters elections having been accordingly made;

And thereupon the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons, pursuant to their respective letters and elections, being now assembled in a full and free representative of this nation, taking into their most serious consideration the best means for attaining the ends aforesaid, do in the first place (as their ancestors in like case have usually done) for the vindicating and asserting their ancient rights and liberties declare:
That the pretended power of suspending the laws or the execution of laws by regal authority without consent of Parliament is illegal;
That the pretended power of dispensing with laws or the execution of laws by regal authority, as it hath been assumed and exercised of late, is illegal;
That the commission for erecting the late Court of Commissioners for Ecclesiastical Causes, and all other commissions and courts of like nature, are illegal and pernicious;
That levying money for or to the use of the Crown by pretence of prerogative, without grant of Parliament, for longer time, or in other manner than the same is or shall be granted, is illegal;
That it is the right of the subjects to petition the king, and all commitments and prosecutions for such petitioning are illegal;
That the raising or keeping a standing army within the kingdom in time of peace, unless it be with consent of Parliament, is against law;
That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;
That election of members of Parliament ought to be free;
That the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament;
That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted;
That jurors ought to be duly impanelled and returned, and jurors which pass upon men in trials for high treason ought to be freeholders;
That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void;
And that for redress of all grievances, and for the amending, strengthening and preserving of the laws, Parliaments ought to be held frequently.

And they do claim, demand and insist upon all and singular the premises as their undoubted rights and liberties, and that no declarations, judgments, doings or proceedings to the prejudice of the people in any of the said premises ought in any wise to be drawn hereafter into consequence or example; to which demand of their rights they are particularly encouraged by the declaration of his Highness the prince of Orange as being the only means for obtaining a full redress and remedy therein.

Having therefore an entire confidence that his said Highness the prince of Orange will perfect the deliverance so far advanced by him, and will still preserve them from the violation of their rights which they have here asserted, and from all other attempts upon their religion, rights and liberties, the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons assembled at Westminster do resolve that William and Mary, prince and princess of Orange, be and be declared king and queen of England, France and Ireland and the dominions thereunto belonging, to hold the crown and royal dignity of the said kingdoms and dominions to them, the said prince and princess, during their lives and the life of the survivor to them, and that the sole and full exercise of the regal power be only in and executed by the said prince of Orange in the names of the said prince and princess during their joint lives, and after their deceases the said crown and royal dignity of the same kingdoms and dominions to be to the heirs of the body of the said princess, and for default of such issue to the Princess Anne of Denmark and the heirs of her body, and for default of such issue to the heirs of the body of the said prince of Orange. And the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons do pray the said prince and princess to accept the same accordingly.

And that the oaths hereafter mentioned be taken by all persons of whom the oaths have allegiance and supremacy might be required by law, instead of them; and that the said oaths of allegiance and supremacy be abrogated.

"I, A.B., do sincerely promise and swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to their Majesties King William and Queen Mary. So help me God."

"I, A.B., do swear that I do from my heart abhor, detest and abjure as impious and heretical this damnable doctrine and position, that princes excommunicated or deprived by the Pope or any authority of the see of Rome may be deposed or murdered by their subjects or any other whatsoever. And I do declare that no foreign prince, person, prelate, state or potentate hath or ought to have any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm. So help me God."

Upon which their said Majesties did accept the crown and royal dignity of the kingdoms of England, France and Ireland, and the dominions thereunto belonging, according to the resolution and desire of the said Lords and Commons contained in the said declaration.

And thereupon their Majesties were pleased that the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons, being the two Houses of Parliament, should continue to sit, and with their Majesties' royal concurrence make effectual provision for the settlement of the religion, laws and liberties of this kingdom, so that the same for the future might not be in danger again of being subverted, to which the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons did agree, and proceed to act accordingly.

Now in pursuance of the premises the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons in Parliament assembled, for the ratifying, confirming and establishing the said declaration and the articles, clauses, matters and things therein contained by the force of law made in due form by authority of Parliament, do pray that it may be declared and enacted that all and singular the rights and liberties asserted and claimed in the said declaration are the true, ancient and indubitable rights and liberties of the people of this kingdom, and so shall be esteemed, allowed, adjudged, deemed and taken to be; and that all and every the particulars aforesaid shall be firmly and strictly holden and observed as they are expressed in the said declaration, and all officers and ministers whatsoever shall serve their Majesties and their successors according to the same in all time to come.

And the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons, seriously considering how it hath pleased Almighty God in his marvellous providence and merciful goodness to this nation to provide and preserve their said Majesties' royal persons most happily to reign over us upon the throne of their ancestors, for which they render unto him from the bottom of their hearts their humblest thanks and praises, do truly, firmly, assuredly and in the sincerity of their hearts think, and do hereby recognize, acknowledge and declare, that King James the Second having abdicated the government, and their Majesties having accepted the crown and royal dignity as aforesaid, their said Majesties did become, were, are and of right ought to be by the laws of this realm our sovereign liege lord and lady, king and queen of England, France and Ireland and the dominions thereunto belonging, in and to whose princely persons the royal state, crown and dignity of the said realms with all honours, styles, titles, regalities, prerogatives, powers, jurisdictions and authorities to the same belonging and appertaining are most fully, rightfully and entirely invested and incorporated, united and annexed. And for preventing all questions and divisions in this realm by reason of any pretended titles to the crown, and for preserving a certainty in the succession thereof, in and upon which the unity, peace, tranquility and safety of this nation doth under God wholly consist and depend, the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons do beseech their Majesties that it may be enacted, established and declared, that the crown and regal government of the said kingdoms and dominions, with all and singular the premises thereunto belonging and appertaining, shall be and continue to their said Majesties and the survivor of them during their lives and the life of the survivor of them, and that the entire, perfect and full exercise of the regal power and government be only in and executed by his Majesty in the names of both their Majesties during their joint lives; and after their deceases the said crown and premises shall be and remain to the heirs of the body of her Majesty, and for default of such issue to her Royal Highness the Princess Anne of Denmark and the heirs of the body of his said Majesty; and thereunto the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons do in the name of all the people aforesaid most humbly and faithfully submit themselves, their heirs and posterities for ever, and do faithfully promise that they will stand to, maintain and defend their said Majesties, and also the limitation and succession of the crown herein specified and contained, to the utmost of their powers with their lives and estates against all persons whatsoever that shall attempt anything to the contrary.

And whereas it hath been found by experience that it is inconsistent with the safety and welfare of this Protestant kingdom to be governed by a popish prince, or by any king or queen marrying a papist, the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons do further pray that it may be enacted, that all and every person and persons that is, are or shall be reconciled to or shall hold communion with the see or Church of Rome, or shall profess the popish religion, or shall marry a papist, shall be excluded and be for ever incapable to inherit, possess or enjoy the crown and government of this realm and Ireland and the dominions thereunto belonging or any part of the same, or to have, use or exercise any regal power, authority or jurisdiction within the same; and in all and every such case or cases the people of these realms shall be and are hereby absolved of their allegiance; and the said crown and government shall from time to time descend to and be enjoyed by such person or persons being Protestants as should have inherited and enjoyed the same in case the said person or persons so reconciled, holding communion or professing or marrying as aforesaid were naturally dead; and that every king and queen of this realm who at any time hereafter shall come to and succeed in the imperial crown of this kingdom shall on the first day of the meeting of the first Parliament next after his or her coming to the crown, sitting in his or her throne in the House of Peers in the presence of the Lords and Commons therein assembled, or at his or her coronation before such person or persons who shall administer the coronation oath to him or her at the time of his or her taking the said oath (which shall first happen), make, subscribe and audibly repeat the declaration mentioned in the statute made in the thirtieth year of the reign of King Charles the Second entitled, An Act for the more effectual preserving the king's person and government by disabling papists from sitting in either House of Parliament. But if it shall happen that such king or queen upon his or her succession to the crown of this realm shall be under the age of twelve years, then every such king or queen shall make, subscribe and audibly repeat the same declaration at his or her coronation or the first day of the meeting of the first Parliament as aforesaid which shall first happen after such king or queen shall have attained the said age of twelve years.

All which their Majesties are contented and pleased shall be declared, enacted and established by authority of this present Parliament, and shall stand, remain and be the law of this realm for ever; and the same are by their said Majesties, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons in Parliament assembled and by the authority of the same, declared, enacted and established accordingly.

II. And be it further declared and enacted by the authority aforesaid, that from and after this present session of Parliament no dispensation by non obstante of or to any statute or any part thereof shall be allowed, but that the same shall be held void and of no effect, except a dispensation be allowed of in such statute, and except in such cases as shall be specially provided for by one or more bill or bills to be passed during this present session of Parliament.

III. Provided that no charter or grant or pardon granted before the three and twentieth day of October in the year of our Lord one thousand six hundred eighty-nine [old style date] shall be any ways impeached or invalidated by this Act, but that the same shall be and remain of the same force and effect in law and no other than as if this Act had never been made.

As that act also contains the coronation oath and the loyal oaths act, I would not want to mess with it, that is treason.

http://www.constitution.org/eng/eng_bor.htm

[dourpil]

Just my two cents, and this opinion only engages myself, but violence, even used for defense, is an attack. Transcendance of these polarities is how you go through such an event.

(Same thing is happening in Belgium.. A burglar got shot by a jewelry-owner. He died. Now there are demonstrations because of the "injustice" of getting shot. Cars were burnt. Molotov cocktails.. I'm not for that. I'm not for shooting burglars.)



- I'm here to rob you!
- Okay, I'll show you where my valuables are. I hope you will make good use of them and I wish you a happy life.

[buckminster fuller]

"How did it become a crime to defend one's own life in the once great British Empire ?"

Life and material property are really different things. This guy blindly shot at two others. He is a murderer since he acted violently when it was not in self-defense. How many accidentally killed children, parents would there be if everyone was so quick at unloading a shotgun (a really dirty gun really) in a dark corridor...

Things are not that black and white...

[ulli]

It's all about extremes, and about not being properly prepared, protected, informed.
There is outrage when the press abuse their power and turn predators and burglars into heroes...
as there is outrage at a thief being "executed" without recourse to the law.
All this serves to heat the debate further.
It's up to each person to find their own place in this debate and then make a stand, as impartially as possible.

[Lord Sidious]

Just my two cents, and this opinion only engages myself, but violence, even used for defense, is an attack. Transcendance of these polarities is how you go through such an event.

(Same thing is happening in Belgium.. A burglar got shot by a jewelry-owner. He died. Now there are demonstrations because of the "injustice" of getting shot. Cars were burnt. Molotov cocktails.. I'm not for that. I'm not for shooting burglars.)



- I'm here to rob you!
- Okay, I'll show you where my valuables are. I hope you will make good use of them and I wish you a happy life.

Sounds good in theory, try saying that when they knock on the door to rape your wife and daughter.
Self defense isn't just a right, it is an obligation.

[Unified Serenity]

"How did it become a crime to defend one's own life in the once great British Empire ?"

Life and material property are really different things. This guy blindly shot at two others. He is a murderer since he acted violently when it was not in self-defense. How many accidentally killed children, parents would there be if everyone was so quick at unloading a shotgun (a really dirty gun really) in a dark corridor...

Things are not that black and white...

I don't know this case, but in the example given it seemed plain to me that he knew no one should be in his house. He was charged at by someone carrying something in their hand. It seemed plain to me that he knew they did not belong there and his life was in danger.

This is all Hegelian dialectic again. They want an unarmed helpless people who cannot protect themselves from the power of a police state. So, let things happen in such a way to make the population want action to remove guns. Scare the last hold outs who won't turn in their guns by having a public example set of one of their good citizens who basically loses everything though he was the one who was victimized by two career criminals. One of them even gets to sue him and take what was left. So, the hold outs turn in their last guns and now the state can do as it pleases since the idea is "what are the people going to do?" The goal is a disarmed populace. America is the last stand and they want our guns. They will use stupid laws, examples set of anyone who dares to defend themselves. My guess is the next liberally controlled congress and Whitehouse will pass some law that the people do not want, just as in Obamacare, and there will be a push to take the guns. It might set a powder keg off or the people may be too boot licking and just let it happen.

[jorr lundstrom]

There is an old swedish movie called 491. Its about a young social worker who

should take care of a gang of young hooligans. He is a really nice guy and he

just stands there looking when they are emptying his home. He tries to talk to

them, but it is meaningless. But when they start to carry out his dead mothers

piano, he goes bananas. The title of the movie 491 is about wot it says in the

bible, that you shall forgive 7X70 times, which = 490. But the question is, wot

do you do when you have forgiven 490 times and it happens the 491 time.

Im not much for a lot of material possesions, but Im convinced I would be

P####d if Someone would break in to my home and probably reach for my

compound bow. Even if today our society and corporations have become the

robbers, that once upon the time was one of the reason we created society as a

means of protection against, I dont like when we try to picture burglary and

robbery as holy acts.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/pilgrimduva.jpg

[buckminster fuller]

Prolongating this idea... the necessary solution to all problems related to fascist corporatism would then be to grab the leaders and just get rid of them ... Since we're all getting used, poisoned, robbed, psychologically rapped... Then where does it stop ? Burglars are not murderers by definition.... Not to mention that robbery is often the result of a personal social collapse, there is no gene for robbery that I'm aware of.. The only remedies to it are education and social reconstruction.

Not saying that we can't defend ourselves if our lifes are being threatened, and accidents can happen, as well as this guy must have been in a state of fear that prohibited a fair assessment of the situation; nevertheless, advocating this case as unfair is a misjudgement imo. Prisons are not here only to punish people but to set examples for others. Unfortunately, this guy, by choosing to own a firearm and to use it in a situation where his life was not endangered, has made his own case...

Edit : taken from wikipedia :
"There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]"

... food for thoughts

[WhiteFeather]

I Will protect my children/family like a bear does in defending her cub, a bird guarding her nest... We are a part of nature as well as the animals in the natural law. We do what we need to defend oneself in this natural cycle.

[Lord Sidious]

If I recall correctly, the reason he got done for murder is that he chased them away and shot them when they presented no threat to him.

[Fred Steeves]

Indeed, after the Martin shooting, a police spokesman was quoted as saying,
"We cannot have people
take the law into their own hands."



Classic doublethink, as I'm sure this guy is entitled to have a gun, to not only defend himself, but his family. It's mind boggling how deep the indoctrination of individual helplessness runs. Breaking into someone's home in the middle of the night is serious business, and anyone contemplating doing such should be prepared for some potentially very serious consequences.

Even though America has fallen as well, good luck coming to get our guns fellas. The second ammendment was not an accident, or an after thought, and those wig wearing guys, warts and all, knew a thing or two about tyranny. The constitution as law may have slipped from our fingers long ago, but for many of us still, it's ideals have not.

This once great country may be over, but not her people...Not yet.

[dourpil]

Sounds good in theory, try saying that when they knock on the door to rape your wife and daughter.
Self defense isn't just a right, it is an obligation.

Maybe I'll look offendant, beleive me it's not my will, but until I have a life lesson to learn from this kind of situation, it will never happen to me. If it does, I really hope I will have the courage and the self-control needed to react the best way.
But if it happens, it only will be because I chose it. Everyone has a different life-view. Mine does not include violence. Ever. In theory at least. In practice, I've never used it and I've never been a victim of it. Guess I'm "lucky".


Love to all and Thank you

[Lord Sidious]

Sounds good in theory, try saying that when they knock on the door to rape your wife and daughter.
Self defense isn't just a right, it is an obligation.

Maybe I'll look offendant, beleive me it's not my will, but until I have a life lesson to learn from this kind of situation, it will never happen to me. If it does, I really hope I will have the courage and the self-control needed to react the best way.
But if it happens, it only will be because I chose it. Everyone has a different life-view. Mine does not include violence. Ever. In theory at least. In practice, I've never used it and I've never been a victim of it. Guess I'm "lucky".


Love to all and Thank you

One thing we need to learn is that the world doesn't revolve around us.
What if it is someones elses destiny/timeline/whatever that means you are now in a position not of your choosing?
Sometimes we are the one needing to learn the lesson, sometimes we are the one involved in someone elses lesson.
I hope that you never do get involved in violence and your luck continues.

And twice as much back at you.
Belgiumnugget.

[Limor Wolf]

What a horrific case. A similiar story happend in Israel about four years ago,only it ended with a much more common sense and happy end - a new law was formed on the defendant's name:

THE SHAI DROMI CASE

"Shai Dromi is an Israeli farmer who, in an act of self-defense, shot and killed a trespasser and wounded another on 13 January 2007 at 3am after discovering his dog had been poisoned, allegedly by four intruders.[1] On 15 July 2009, he was acquitted of manslaughter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter) but convicted on charges of illegal possession of weapons. The rifle he had used belonged to his father and not registered in Dromi's name.

Dromi's farm is near Meitar in southern Israel, an area plagued by property theft. In the months leading up to the incident, several other dogs had been killed and a tractor and horse stolen.

Dromi testified at his trial:

“I awoke at 3 AM to the barking of the guard dog that I acquired after my dogs were poisoned. Even though I was incredibly tired, I got out of bed and walked around the house. After I went back to bed, I again heard the dog barking irregularly. I went out with my weapon and didn’t see anything. I kept walking around [the perimeter of my] sheep pen, and noticed large metal wire-cutters. I panicked. I realized there were men around me.”

When police arrived, Dromi was administering first aid to the intruder, a Bedouin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedouin), Khaled el-Atrash, who later died. Dromi was arrested and imprisoned for a month and later restrained from returning to his farm afterwards requiring volunteers to continue its maintenance.

A public uproar drew much attention to Dromi's plight and a law was proposed by Member of Knesset Yisrael Katz and later passed by a large majority in the Knesset. The law, commonly known as the 'Dromi Law', considers opposition to intruders as self-defence."

-----------
Of course the news headlines shouted:"New law allows shooting burglars" (http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=105405),but Shai Dromi has been acquitted of Manslaughter,mostly because of strong public support and understanding of the difficult situation and dilemma in his case.

[buckminster fuller]

"How did it become a crime to defend one's own life in the once great British Empire ?"

Life and material property are really different things. This guy blindly shot at two others. He is a murderer since he acted violently when it was not in self-defense. How many accidentally killed children, parents would there be if everyone was so quick at unloading a shotgun (a really dirty gun really) in a dark corridor...

Things are not that black and white...

I don't know this case, but in the example given it seemed plain to me that he knew no one should be in his house. He was charged at by someone carrying something in their hand. It seemed plain to me that he knew they did not belong there and his life was in danger.

This is all Hegelian dialectic again. They want an unarmed helpless people who cannot protect themselves from the power of a police state. So, let things happen in such a way to make the population want action to remove guns. Scare the last hold outs who won't turn in their guns by having a public example set of one of their good citizens who basically loses everything though he was the one who was victimized by two career criminals. One of them even gets to sue him and take what was left. So, the hold outs turn in their last guns and now the state can do as it pleases since the idea is "what are the people going to do?" The goal is a disarmed populace. America is the last stand and they want our guns. They will use stupid laws, examples set of anyone who dares to defend themselves. My guess is the next liberally controlled congress and Whitehouse will pass some law that the people do not want, just as in Obamacare, and there will be a push to take the guns. It might set a powder keg off or the people may be too boot licking and just let it happen.

How does this guy's choice to use a weapon against other peoples has to do with gun policy at large (asside that his case might have been used to defend new policies) ? Owning a gun or not was not at stake here. Firing at unarmed people is. It is about personal choices. In case of a civil war, I don't think that guns owned by civilianss would make that a difference anyway.
In france, there are less than 700 murders a year for a population of 70 millions, almost none by firearm. (firearms are severly controlled and their possession is illegal here) In the USA, its 15000 (*20) murders for a population of 300 millions (*4), and more than 2 millions burglaries. By no mean am I trying to advocate my country as being any way better than any other. But there are markers here to tell us something really..

The path to changement has to be peacefull anyway. We all know what the outcome of battles are. I don't want that.

[buckminster fuller]

What a horrific case. A similiar story happend in Israel about four years ago,only it ended with a much more common sense and happy end - a new law was formed on the defendant's name:

THE SHAI DROMI CASE

"Shai Dromi is an Israeli farmer who, in an act of self-defense, shot and killed a trespasser and wounded another on 13 January 2007 at 3am after discovering his dog had been poisoned, allegedly by four intruders.[1] On 15 July 2009, he was acquitted of manslaughter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter) but convicted on charges of illegal possession of weapons. The rifle he had used belonged to his father and not registered in Dromi's name.

Dromi's farm is near Meitar in southern Israel, an area plagued by property theft. In the months leading up to the incident, several other dogs had been killed and a tractor and horse stolen.

Dromi testified at his trial:

“I awoke at 3 AM to the barking of the guard dog that I acquired after my dogs were poisoned. Even though I was incredibly tired, I got out of bed and walked around the house. After I went back to bed, I again heard the dog barking irregularly. I went out with my weapon and didn’t see anything. I kept walking around [the perimeter of my] sheep pen, and noticed large metal wire-cutters. I panicked. I realized there were men around me.”

When police arrived, Dromi was administering first aid to the intruder, a Bedouin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedouin), Khaled el-Atrash, who later died. Dromi was arrested and imprisoned for a month and later restrained from returning to his farm afterwards requiring volunteers to continue its maintenance.

A public uproar drew much attention to Dromi's plight and a law was proposed by Member of Knesset Yisrael Katz and later passed by a large majority in the Knesset. The law, commonly known as the 'Dromi Law', considers opposition to intruders as self-defence."

-----------
Of course the news headlines shouted:"New law allows shooting burglars" (http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=105405),but Shai Dromi has been acquitted of Manslaughter,mostly because of strong public support and understanding of the difficult situation and dilemma in his case.

Just more terrorism on the side of israel... What a convenient law for the colonialist zionists...

[Forevernyt]

I wonder if sword, dagger and mace sales went up?

[Lord Sidious]

Just more terrorism on the side of israel... What a convenient law for the colonialist zionists...

I must have read a different post than you.
How do you figure this?
You do know that there are actual terrorists in that area as well as plain old criminals, yes?
Whole families have been murdered in their beds, even babies and recently.
As per usual, there isn't any black or white with this.

[buckminster fuller]

I must have read a different post than you.
How do you figure this?
You do know that there are actual terrorists in that area as well as plain old criminals, yes?
Whole families have been murdered in their beds, even babies and recently.
As per usual, there isn't any black or white with this.

Yet.. This law does make the use of lethal violence in the colonies a legal thing.... Not black nor white indeed, still, I call it state sponsored terrorism.. And it does fit the zionist agenda for the colonies.

[Carmody]

In the microcosm of our complex lives, we must still be attentive and clear with our own children, so our issues do not create little budding monsters out of them. For their views and reach is smaller than our own, for we have greater experience than theirs, greater reach in our views and understandings, than theirs.

If a country, a government acted this way, then all would be fine. this would all work out.

however, they are not our parent. they are a false parent. and we have foolishly given them the 'right' to be our parent, as we remain in the limited view and reach as a child within ourselves - within their scope and reach.

The moment we fail to enlargen our view, we become like the child with the parent that encompasses us.

the PTB play on and into this instinct and ignorance of this particular aspect of childhood, which reaches into our adulthood, for many of us.

This is a natural bit of human body hard wiring, instinct in some ways. We need to overcome this instinctual bit that lies underneath our so-called human aged (older person 'adulthood') and understand that our responsibility lies with all, even that which is well outside of our native 'moment to moment awareness'.

For if we do not, the predators will willingly walk in and take position as that parent, that government.

This is where the heart of the situation, the core of the failure of the given individual lies.

Failure to recognize the need to evolve.

[Calz]

If someone broke into my home and was a threat to my family ... if I could get to *my* shotgun in time I wouldn't need to load.

It would take more than a couple nitwit nighttime nuggets.

I don't care if there are uniforms or badges ... because I have done nothing to warrant such an intrusion.

6 rounds of buckshot can hold off more than a few provided I can keep pumping long enough ...


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That said ... I have never harmed another in my entire life ... don't make me cross that line.

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by buckminter fuller: "The path to changement has to be peacefull anyway. We all know what the outcome of battles are. I don't want that."

Bf,I tend to agree with you here,my personal choice will be to not raise a gun to my attackers.However,in your words - "It IS about personal choices".
This man's farm was invaded a couple of times,his life was in immediate danger ,on top,his property was regularly vandalized and his cattle stolen.
One needs to practiclly be a saint in order to Give the other cheek.and lets suppose that someone is a saint,what energetic outcome will that bring? The people who chose to invade someone elses privecy will be able to coninue and expand their own doings,since short term jail will not provide the education required in such cases. shooting burglars mercilessly and using weapon is not a suitable solution as well,we all know what is the best solution - we need a change in this world,we need to feed the hungry,show the angry that there are different ways,transform society's mind to respect itself and the others and implement a more abundant style of living.it will happen.until than,a firm signalling of -No! and 'you are doing this at your own risk,know the consequences...' is a needed message.as been said- everyone needs to take self responsibility on their own deeds,this is of course also true in the case of an Inappropriate response towords the attacker.
This is the game of life that many are still chosing to play - Events,responses,results.


"Just more terrorism on the side of israel... What a convenient law for the colonialist zionists... "

I believe you took it a bit too far (that is a valid risk in our life as conspiracy exposers :)),lets hold our horses,this is a privet case and it was not 'hitchiked' by the state of Israel at any time.

According to the law:"a person will not be held criminally liable for "acts that are immediately necessary to shove off a burglar out of the house, intent to commit a felony" (my own limping translation : ),wich basically means - shooting is allowed in order to cause someone to flee. no mention of giving any permission to injure or kill or that this law is being used as a hidden agenda of the 'colonialist zionists' ;)
(not this time anyway..)

[Fred Steeves]

6 rounds of buckshot can hold off more than a few provided I can keep pumping long enough ...


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That said ... I have never harmed another in my entire life ... don't make me cross that line.

6 rounds in a pump action can spread a whole lot of lovin to home invaders in need of some, even from unevolved people like me.:wave:

[TWINCANS]

Let's take the issue of firearms out of this discussion just for academic purposes. This kind of case is not unusual bu here in Toronto recently a Chinatown shopowner David Chen caught a 48x thief and threw him into his delivery van parked nearby. Then he called the police. Chen was arrested and charged with assault and forcible confinemen

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/editorials/david-chen-hero-grocer-was-left-on-his-own/article1778679/

A long story later and the citizen's arrest laws have been changed.

http://openparliament.ca/bills/40-3/C-565/

The debate continues to be very heated whenever you talk about guns ('we don't want to become like the US where everyone has a gun') but Ottawa is about to end the Long Gun Registry which includes pretty much all guns.

[Limor Wolf]

In the microcosm of our complex lives, we must still be attentive and clear with our own children, so our issues do not create little budding monsters out of them. For their views and reach is smaller than our own, for we have greater experience than theirs, greater reach in our views and understandings, than theirs.

If a country, a government acted this way, then all would be fine. this would all work out.

however, they are not our parent. they are a false parent. and we have foolishly given them the 'right' to be our parent, as we remain in the limited view and reach as a child within ourselves - within their scope and reach.

The moment we fail to enlargen our view, we become like the child with the parent that encompasses us.

the PTB play on and into this instinct and ignorance of this particular aspect of childhood, which reaches into our adulthood, for many of us.

This is a natural bit of human body hard wiring, instinct in some ways. We need to overcome this instinctual bit that lies underneath our so-called human aged (older person 'adulthood') and understand that our responsibility lies with all, even that which is well outside of our native 'moment to moment awareness'.

For if we do not, the predators will willingly walk in and take position as that parent, that government.

This is where the heart of the situation, the core of the failure of the given individual lies.

Failure to recognize the need to evolve.

Thank you for this piece of enlarged view of awarness,Carmody


I have a question to all:

statistically,in your area,wherever you are located,how many of the burglars and attackers are actually woman?

(No hidden zionist agenda,I swear)

[buckminster fuller]

"Spokesman for the Jewish community in the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah said Wednesday that if the Palestinians try to organize a mass march and enter Jewish homes in the neighborhood, the Jews "would not hesitate to execute the Dromi Law."
The Dromi Law allows homeowners to shoot burglars without facing criminal charges. The legislation was introduced following the case of southern farmer Shai Dromi who shot and killed a Bedouin who broke into his farm. (Ronen Medzini) "

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4119164,00.html

... derailing... again

[Fred Steeves]

How bout we end the last word game here.

[Calz]

How bout we end the last word game here.

Been there ... done that ... 50 paces seem in order ...


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[Unified Serenity]

Sounds good in theory, try saying that when they knock on the door to rape your wife and daughter.
Self defense isn't just a right, it is an obligation.

Maybe I'll look offendant, beleive me it's not my will, but until I have a life lesson to learn from this kind of situation, it will never happen to me. If it does, I really hope I will have the courage and the self-control needed to react the best way.
But if it happens, it only will be because I chose it. Everyone has a different life-view. Mine does not include violence. Ever. In theory at least. In practice, I've never used it and I've never been a victim of it. Guess I'm "lucky".


Love to all and Thank you

I appreciate your viewpoint which sounds like you believe since you don't allow violence in your life, don't expect it in your life and have never experienced it that you are more than lucky, but proof that it works. I think you should consider yourself lucky. Many peaceful people who do not condone violence have discovered throughout the ages that just because they don't accept it, believe in using it, that there are those who do, and they got wiped out or enslaved. I think it's a nice theory but not very practical.

Some think if we would just disarm and throw away our guns that the world would be a better place. That sounds good and true. Let me paint the picture as I see what would happen. America disarms and shuts down the military. We destroy our missiles and means of fighting any wars. All our citizens turn in their guns. I give us 24 hours to be faced with the option of dying or surrendering to the Russians or Chinese or both because they would attack and give us the choice to die or be their servants or just die because we might decide to fight later. To me that is reality. Some people are only peaceful because they believe you will fight them and it's easier to be your friend than enemy.

[Limor Wolf]

I think that this is an achievement that we have no moderator trying to sooth us right now,why not make an effort to keep it cool? are we enemies of each other??


Originally posted by Buckminster fuller : ""Spokesman for the Jewish community in the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah said Wednesday that if the Palestinians try to organize a mass march and enter Jewish homes in the neighborhood, the Jews "would not hesitate to execute the Dromi Law."
The Dromi Law allows homeowners to shoot burglars without facing criminal charges. The legislation was introduced following the case of southern farmer Shai Dromi who shot and killed a Bedouin who broke into his farm. (Ronen Medzini) "

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...119164,00.html "

Buck,I seriously do understand what you are trying to say, but this news item (sad,I am so tired of this never ending conflict) that you quote,is only an example of a misuse of the "Dromi law" wich has no state of Israel hidden agenda behind it..

I believe this is an important discussion in itself,but maybe less fitting the talked about subject here.

[Carmody]

Thank you for this piece of enlarged view of awarness.


I have a question:

statistically,in your area,wherever you are located,how many of the burglars and attackers are actually woman?

(No hidden zionist agenda,I swear)

I'm not sure of your point. I said parent, which is indicative of either or both gender. Gender being irrelevant to the communication, in my ideas, ideals, and experience.

If you wish me to find an example of a woman attacking another, I can.

I used to drive cab at one time.

A friend of mine was stabbed repeatedly...to death.. in the throat, neck and upper chest.. by a woman/female passenger or fare. He left a young child behind.

In another situation it was a man who did such or similar to another friend.

I do not think such direction was your intent, at least I hope. :)

It does happen that women are the belligerent in the odd case -obviously less than men.

It lies in the wiring of men vs the wiring of the female of the species. It is a condition unrecognized by most, is all.

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Carmody: "I'm not sure of your point. I said parent, which is indicative of either or both gender. Gender being irrelevant to the communication, in my ideas, ideals, and experience.

If you wish me to find an example of a woman attacking another, I can.

I used to drive cab at one time.

A friend of mine was stabbed repeatedly...to death.. in the throat, neck and upper chest.. by a woman/female passenger or fare. He left a young child behind.

In another situation it was a man who did such or similar to another friend.

I do not think such direction was your intent, at least I hope.

It does happen that women are the belligerent in the odd case -obviously less than men.

It lies in the wiring of men vs the wiring of the female of the species. It is a condition unrecognized by most, is all. "

Carmody,I am sorry, with my rotten english I ment to compliment you on your well written post. the continuation of what I wrote is not about you, but only a general idea that popped up... if its arousing the 'gender war' again than please ignor it,as this was not my intention..

[jorr lundstrom]

Speaking about shotguns, yes I would like to have one.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/tomterenar3.jpg

[Calz]

Ping Pong anyone???

Now DAT is what I'm talkin' bout!!!

Checked Amazon ... bugger ... not available :cry:


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[Fred Steeves]

Speaking about shotguns, yes I would like to have one.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/tomterenar3.jpg

Good lord Jorr, where do you find this stuff? It's amusingly disturbing...

[jorr lundstrom]

Speaking about shotguns, yes I would like to have one.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/tomterenar3.jpg

Good lord Jorr, where do you find this stuff? It's amusingly disturbing...

When I was on Svalbard in july 2009 we where heading for King Karls Land

on an icebreaker. And I just took a snapshot of this scene on an iceberg we

passed. LOL

[Calz]

Speaking about shotguns, yes I would like to have one.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/tomterenar3.jpg

Good lord Jorr, where do you find this stuff? It's amusingly disturbing...

I know who is getting a lump of coal in their stocking *this* year!!!


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[Limor Wolf]

Speaking about shotguns, yes I would like to have one.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/tomterenar3.jpg

Good lord Jorr, where do you find this stuff? It's amusingly disturbing...


When I was on Svalbard in july 2009 we where heading for King Karls Land

on an icebreaker. And I just took a snapshot of this scene on an iceberg we

passed. LOL

And you did not finish of the task? there is one still alive! (I do not believe that I said that..I will deny it later)

[jorr lundstrom]

Speaking about shotguns, yes I would like to have one.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/tomterenar3.jpg

Good lord Jorr, where do you find this stuff? It's amusingly disturbing...

I know who is getting a lump of coal in their stocking *this* year!!!


11321

Well, summer is the hunting season for Santas in those areas. They mate around x-mas

and then they are protected. Not many letf Ive been told, so this problem is close to its solution.

[Lord Sidious]

Speaking about shotguns, yes I would like to have one.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/tomterenar3.jpg

Good lord Jorr, where do you find this stuff? It's amusingly disturbing...

I know who is getting a lump of coal in their stocking *this* year!!!


11321

Well, summer is the hunting season for Santas in those areas. They mate around x-mas

and then they are protected. Not many letf Ive been told, so this problem is close to its solution.

Wait a couple of weeks and there will be a HEAP of imposters around.
How do you figure out the real one from the others?

[jorr lundstrom]

Wait a couple of weeks and there will be a HEAP of imposters around.
How do you figure out the real one from the others?

Its just as with all other destroyers of peace of mind. Shoot em all. LOL

[Ilie Pandia]

Closing the thread for now to remove the unnecessary chit-chat.

Hang on.

[Ilie Pandia]

Thread is now back open.

Please stay on topic, and if you have a private argument, well, take it to private messages. Don't force everybody to bear with your back and forth...

Thanks.

[mosquito]

(firearms are severly controlled and their possession is illegal here)

????????? Are there 2 countries on this planet called "France" ?

I used to live in rural France, and from September onwards we were plagued by hunters. It was impossible to go walking in the woods without encountering some idiot hell bent on shooting anything that moved. Worst of all was that on several occasions, hunters actually fired in the direction of our house, once hitting the wall. They also regularly shot at animals in places where cows were grazing. We decided we need a chat with the leader of the local hunt, who was also a cattle farmer, and he told us that it's perfectly legal to fire in the direction of someone's house.

[jorr lundstrom]

Oh, you mean that France. Maybye its just an old tradion there to shoot in

as many directions as possible when its hunting season. It takes a lot of

lead but sooner or later you gotta hit something you can cook. Ive come

to understand that there are a lot of traditions out there in 3D that its

impossible to understand. LOL

[Carmody]

Where I'm from, we, and the moose...and the bear..we would all gather near the town (the people in the town proper, of course)....and let the hunters go into the woods and kill each other. Which they did, from time to time.

As for the moose hiding beside us, beside the town..from the hunters... I'm dead serious. About 30 would gather each year, in a swamp..about 2 miles out of town, where no hunter would ever be. they were 50-100 km/miles further north, where they thought the moose were. They'd come back empty handed. "Aw, so sad", we'd say.

You had to know the secret side road to the "Moose hunting season refuge".. We'd go and visit the moose brothers and sit with them. ok, I kid you slightly. we left them alone, as they were a bit skittish--for all the right reasons. But... we could see them and look at them, no problem.

[truth4me]

Just my two cents, and this opinion only engages myself, but violence, even used for defense, is an attack. Transcendance of these polarities is how you go through such an event.

(Same thing is happening in Belgium.. A burglar got shot by a jewelry-owner. He died. Now there are demonstrations because of the "injustice" of getting shot. Cars were burnt. Molotov cocktails.. I'm not for that. I'm not for shooting burglars.)



- I'm here to rob you!
- Okay, I'll show you where my valuables are. I hope you will make good use of them and I wish you a happy life.

Sounds good in theory, try saying that when they knock on the door to rape your wife and daughter.
Self defense isn't just a right, it is an obligation.can't argue with that Lord Sid.....you just can't.

[Axman]

I know when they ask us to turn in our guns the bad guys will be first in line.

I Pity the fool

The Axman

[modwiz]

In the microcosm of our complex lives, we must still be attentive and clear with our own children, so our issues do not create little budding monsters out of them. For their views and reach is smaller than our own, for we have greater experience than theirs, greater reach in our views and understandings, than theirs.

If a country, a government acted this way, then all would be fine. this would all work out.

however, they are not our parent. they are a false parent. and we have foolishly given them the 'right' to be our parent, as we remain in the limited view and reach as a child within ourselves - within their scope and reach.

The moment we fail to enlargen our view, we become like the child with the parent that encompasses us.

the PTB play on and into this instinct and ignorance of this particular aspect of childhood, which reaches into our adulthood, for many of us.

This is a natural bit of human body hard wiring, instinct in some ways. We need to overcome this instinctual bit that lies underneath our so-called human aged (older person 'adulthood') and understand that our responsibility lies with all, even that which is well outside of our native 'moment to moment awareness'.

For if we do not, the predators will willingly walk in and take position as that parent, that government.

This is where the heart of the situation, the core of the failure of the given individual lies.

Failure to recognize the need to evolve.

I broke from my home at an early age and have never depended financially or emotionally on my parents. As soon as I was an adult, I acted as one, at least as far as responsibilities and providing for myself went. I have always been uncomfortable around adults who still have umbilical like connections to their parents.

Carmody, I think you have just elucidated why that has been. It is at the core of our dysfunctional relationship with power, bosses and government. This dysfunction would appear to perpetuate the current broken system. It a major contributor to why things suck so much. Too few adults to go around.

You stated it more artfully.
I expect incoming and will go look for my fireproof cape.:target::flame::boom:

[jorr lundstrom]

Yes and like the axlotl, a blind newt from some caves in Mexico humans

reproduce in their larval stage. The newt never leave the water and sustains

their gills the whole life and most human beings will never reach adulthood.

How can we expect dysfunctional parents raising functional kids? :yo:

[Calz]

Nothing like developing a great relationship with your neighbor.

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