The Bible

[greybeard]

I agree with RedeZra.
There is a hell.
Dr David Hawkins said that at the final door to full enlightenment there is the Luciferic temptation "Now that you are beyond personal karma claim your power"
It was non verbal very clever temptation and he was aware of those who had refused the temptation and walked through the door.
He did and said that the final death of the ego was excruciating, terror, fear filled and its the only time that death is actually experienced in this way.
Hawkins says that you must love God more than you love life at that moment.
You are prepared to give up what you call life out of Devotion to God.
That is egoic life which seems the core of your very existence. ( Its not)
(Die that you may have eternal life) thats from memory so may not be an exact quote from the Bible.
Jesus was tempted but refused.

Chris

[Lettherebelight]

Yes, I understand...I have heard it said that the last snare of Maya (illusion), is to think that 'I am God'.

[Kindred]

do you seriously think that Jesus came to suffer our sins and die an excruciating death on the Cross

without a damn good reason ?

Red... this will be my last posting on Your thread...

You only want to know about Your interpretation of 'the Bible'... whatever version that happens to be, but you don't disclose this information.. (I counted 32 versions on this site: http://www.biblegateway.com/ ) and this doesn't account for the various books that have been removed by various powers over the millennia.

I KNOW that 'Jesus' was Real... and DID Do miraculous things while here. His message was simple. The Soul/Spirit is Eternal, and this 'life' is but One of Many that Everyone will have so as to Evolve One's Spirit (Soul) - that Each of Us has the Spark of Divinity from God/Source/Creator.

He came to Earth to teach/preach Love and Spirituality. He had to contend with people who were not highly evolved, speaking to them in parables. His message was Simple - to impart a lesson of Love and Goodness; "Love One Another".

I realize that you probably won't read it given your choice to believe Only 'the Bible' (whichever version you choose), but (again) I'll suggest reading Thiaoouba Prophecy. Read it and understand that it was given in the Spirit of Love for Humanity to teach us these same lessons as Jesus has.

Quote John 8:23: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.”

http://www.lanuovaumanita.net/files/tp-typeset.pdf

In finishing my last post on this thread, I'll simply say that "I KNOW" as I have a 'connection' with this piece, and the providers of this knowledge.

In Unity, Peace and Love

[RedeZra]

I am not here to argue with your faith in the Bible, Red. I can see it is strong and of a noble nature. Just make sure you don't put anyone off following Jesus...

I don't think He would be very pleased about that.


tnx light... but this is what prosperity preachers in mega churches are concerned about

give the people what they want and keep the money flowing


Jesus was not concerned about that and He put a lot of people off

Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" - John 6:67


i do not cherry pick from the Good book

but give a complete report of what Jesus said and did


so if i put people off then so be it

at least i'm in good company ; )

[Lettherebelight]

Ok, then...:)

[gripreaper]

I agree with RedeZra.
There is a hell.
Dr David Hawkins said that at the final door to full enlightenment there is the Luciferic temptation "Now that you are beyond personal karma claim your power"
It was non verbal very clever temptation and he was aware of those who had refused the temptation and walked through the door.
He did and said that the final death of the ego was excruciating, terror, fear filled and its the only time that death is actually experienced in this way.
Hawkins says that you must love God more than you love life at that moment.
You are prepared to give up what you call life out of Devotion to God.
That is egoic life which seems the core of your very existence. ( Its not)
(Die that you may have eternal life) thats from memory so may not be an exact quote from the Bible.
Jesus was tempted but refused.

Chris

There have been discussions on other threads about the godspark being enfolded back into source, and the individuation memory dissolved. Energy can neither be created or destroyed, but only formed and transformed. One can transform their energy into another frequency and resonance, but I do not believe that one can eliminate this energy, or permanently sever it from the whole. So, some transformations may be hellish, but that would be by free will choice, just as choosing to be in joy is a free will choice.

In duality this hellish state cannot exist without the opposite counterpart as all things are always in balance, so the co-creation which is being formed requires both polarities.

I don't understand the idea that one chooses to sequester certain energies from the whole, label them with symbols and archetypes and beliefs, and judge them to where they create perturbations in one's energy field, all the while claiming they are outside of themselves and are evil and satanic and can be cast off to hell forever.

[deridan]

I don't know that J talked much about hell,
but clearly there is a price for falling bellow a mark.

the people i would spend time with in a quantum eternity are not those who were anywhere near the pews,
but those who thought ethics as from themselves, choosing to fill the path towards, rather then reading a book and making a verbal confession (somehow something remains behind),

enjoy a teaching much emphasized by K.Copeland (the primary evangelical theologist), if they knew mistep or sin they would not do, oh but open eyes.

the whole doctrine of the churhc fallls into an illuminati agenda/propoganda mechanism, its asif the whole is being given rickets (i.e. people tend to be immoral, and then sometime these ignorant people would just make it a leaning pillar of empty word)... the whole...that is people are being made immoral, and being forced to concentrate on the immoral, the church seems to move where psychology would not have it move (paul but discusses this in romans, ...why does the church not cease therefore)

[greybeard]

According To Dr Hawkins--- we choose Heaven or Hell by our actions.
Each thought word or deed raises or lowers our personal frequecy and on death we go to the place that has the same frequency as that indivdual has.
An attractor field.
There are levels of hell as there are "Many mansions in Heaven"
God does not send you to hell or judge its a natural consequence of your own actions.
However if you find you are hell bound then calling on Jesus to be your saviour will save you.

Now perhaps muddying the water.
If your level of consciousness/belief system/ experience is dualistic then the aforesaid applies.
If you are in non-duality conciousness "One without a second" then the aforesaid is irrelevant.
The enlightened wear this world like a loose garment.
Higher realms they go to on the death of the body.

Chris

[Beren]

Chris , brother you said it well.
It`s always our choice. And by our choice we create heaven or hell.

Jesus warned us that WE choose where we want to dwell.
If it`s hell you want - sure you got it!

Though it might get hot in there so you might wanna back up...

If it`s heaven you want- sure you got it!

And you will see how your thoughts are materialized.

It`s all about thoughts and soul creations.

[sirdipswitch]

My heart goes out to those poor souls, who desperately try to attain wisdom, by reading just one book. hmm. chucklechuckle.

love and peace
sirdipswitch

[Beren]

Again ,for those who are against Bible or pro Bible , don`t we all see that Bible is just a collection of various works from various people?
And VARIOUS people interpret it as they wish, hence we got confusion in the name of God.

And God laughs merrily watching his children...
Don`t get in another round regarding "his" or "hers"

God is a spirit.

I choose to call IT a he ... or I might decide to call IT a she...

AGAIN it`s all about MY choice. My filter ,my way.
But God is a spirit and can be whatever it chooses to be. I am that I am. Or I am who I am. Or I will be whomever I choose to be.

Simple this phrase is writen in English as I just wrote it.
On Serbian is - Ja jesam onaj koji jesam.
On Hebrew i YHWH or modern variations or rendering as Yahweh ,Jehovah etc.
On French would be ...(you add it)
On Italian would be ... (you add it)

See?

Are we playing dumb here?
Or we imagine it`s something more?

If it is - so what?

We`re I am `s kids. Meaning we can be whomever we can be!
Better get use to it!
:cool:


Simple as that.

And we`re God`s kids.

Better get use to this!
;)

Again- better get use to this... :)

Some responsibility could walk in here... responsibility for words,thoughts,actions...since we manifest those all the time, I am kinda tired of collective manifestation of hell on Earth... Aren`t we all?

Let`s take some responsibility for our thought,word and deed.

Or should we continue quarreling of who`s right here and who`s building walls?
Or who imagines this or that?

[GCS1103]

Again ,for those who are against Bible or pro Bible , don`t we all see that Bible is just a collection of various works from various people?
And VARIOUS people interpret it as they wish, hence we got confusion in the name of God.

And God laughs merrily watching his children...
Don`t get in another round regarding "his" or "hers"

God is a spirit.

I choose to call IT a he ... or I might decide to call IT a she...

AGAIN it`s all about MY choice. My filter ,my way.
But God is a spirit and can be whatever it chooses to be. I am that I am. Or I am who I am. Or I will be whomever I choose to be.

Simple this phrase is writen in English as I just wrote it.
On Serbian is - Ja jesam onaj koji jesam.
On Hebrew i YHWH or modern variations or rendering as Yahweh ,Jehovah etc.
On French would be ...(you add it)
On Italian would be ... (you add it)

See?

Are we playing dumb here?
Or we imagine it`s something more?

If it is - so what?

We`re I am `s kids. Meaning we can be whomever we can be!
Better get use to it!
:cool:


Simple as that.

And we`re God`s kids.

Better get use to this!
;)

Again- better get use to this... :)

Some responsibility could walk in here... responsibility for words,thoughts,actions...since we manifest those all the time, I am kinda tired of collective manifestation of hell on Earth... Aren`t we all?

Let`s take some responsibility for our thought,word and deed.

Or should we continue quarreling of who`s right here and who`s building walls?
Or who imagines this or that?

Beren-

You're a very smart man. :kiss:

[RedeZra]

Jesus comes with a package

His words


oh but we don't know what He said

so we're gonna close the Book and philosophise

about what He was saying


do the adults here understand the insanity in this ?

[Unified Serenity]

I will also add that there is a huge difference in reading the bible seeking illumination with a sincere heart, and reading the bible to know what it says, and not give a damn about truth. Sincerity and purity of heart lead to wisdom and love. Being a scholar just leads to information, and really no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.

[RedeZra]

I will also add that there is a huge difference in reading the bible seeking illumination with a sincere heart, and reading the bible to know what it says, and not give a damn about truth. Sincerity and purity of heart lead to wisdom and love. Being a scholar just leads to information, and really no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.


Jesus cared

and they strung Him up on a cross


something is very wrong with this world

but i digress


without the Holy spirit we would be following our own minds

but isn't that a good thing to do our own thinking ?


it sounds good but compared to God's thinking it's no good at all

look at the world our minds have made


God is not gonna force Himself on us

but He will shake us up big time

[greybeard]

Another difference is that the seeking of enlightenment is radically different from being a "good" Christian/Buddhist/Moslem/Hindu etc.
All personal identification has to be released-- all belief systems/ opinions/ concepts/ labels/fundamentalism etc have to go.
Only desire for Truth remains.
I am a this I am a that is duality.
Yes the Jesus words point to Truth.
"I" am the way.
So the spiritual question is "What am I?"
Following Jesus leads to salvation--- realising the Truth of spiritual teaching is enlightenment.
Salvation a very worth while, important goal (essential) and within the reach of all.
Realisation of Self -- Buddha nature -- enlightenment as yet a rare event.
All religions separate (duality) enlightenment is True nature--- One with the Father.
Jesus pointed to enlightenment as well as salvation.

Chris

[RedeZra]

Another difference is that the seeking of enlightenment is radically different from being a "good" Christian/Buddhist/Moslem/Hindu etc.
All personal identification has to be released-- all belief systems/ opinions/ concepts/ labels/fundamentalism etc have to go.



humanity is divided by religions or ideologies

but i doubt God has a Multiple Personality Disorder


so where do all these religions come from ?

now that is a can of worms

[Beren]

Another difference is that the seeking of enlightenment is radically different from being a "good" Christian/Buddhist/Moslem/Hindu etc.
All personal identification has to be released-- all belief systems/ opinions/ concepts/ labels/fundamentalism etc have to go.



humanity is divided by religions or ideologies

but i doubt God has a Multiple Personality Disorder


so where do all these religions come from ?

now that is a can of worms

It is but it's not.
It comes from various people, entities and such.

Everybody interprets truth on their own way without realizing that THIS is their interpretation.
All would be good and evolutionary unless or save the ones who think they are right and want to fight about it.

This is the prime reason behind wars and such. Ego at work.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I will also add that there is a huge difference in reading the bible seeking illumination with a sincere heart, and reading the bible to know what it says, and not give a damn about truth. Sincerity and purity of heart lead to wisdom and love. Being a scholar just leads to information, and really no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.


:amen::angel:

[kreagle]

I will also add that there is a huge difference in reading the bible seeking illumination with a sincere heart, and reading the bible to know what it says, and not give a damn about truth. Sincerity and purity of heart lead to wisdom and love. Being a scholar just leads to information, and really no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.

Unified Serenity,

What a very "wise" observation you've made, here. I mean this with complete sincerity! Jesus gave a very simple lesson on this very "topic" you are speaking on,....namely "obtaining truth"!

Matthew 5:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

"Most" people today are so busy trying to gather together a "head knowledge" of God's Word, that they eliminate the most "key ingredients" of all,....faith, hunger, and thirst. These "three" ingredients only come from a sincere heart,....as you have pointed out.

You'll notice that I "highlighted" the last sentence of your post.

Very profound,......and very, very true!

Thank you!,.....Love and Peace,........kreagle

[RedeZra]

humanity is divided by religions or ideologies

but i doubt God has a Multiple Personality Disorder


so where do all these religions come from ?

now that is a can of worms


It is but it's not.
It comes from various people, entities and such.

Everybody interprets truth on their own way without realizing that THIS is their interpretation.



this is the main reason for denominations within religions

but who is behind all these highly divergent religions


sure we can choose a religion or none

but why do we have so many


can they all be true ?

[greybeard]

Ha!!! the path of enlightenment is not allied to any sect or religion.
No enlightened sage was or is of any religion.
They do not say my way (teaching) is the only one that leads to Truth.
The essence of Truth can be found in any religion if you ignore the dogma.
Enlightenment excludes none.
The sages may have different forms and persona but formless they are One.
Jesus did not seem to be specifically of a religion--- for sure he was not a Christian.

Chris

[Unified Serenity]

Christianity was sidelined when Paul came in and decided he was an Apostle and started twisting the truth Yeshua had revealed. The Roman's took over and removed the foundation which was Judaism. It's not Judah's fault that the other 10 tribes got divorced from God and sent packing over the caucus mountains to forget their roots. They were a stiff necked rebellious people then and it appears we still are. Yeshua came to bring back the lost sheep of the house of Israel, those 10 tribes and any who would want to join along the way.

There is only one way, and that is the path of love. Yeshua spelled it out to love God and to love your neighbor and in doing that you fulfill all of the law. But he also observed the Feasts of the Lord and the laws prescribed in Torah as pertaining to Statutes and Precepts and was the final blood sacrifice in his death on the cross. Only two churches were approved of in Revelation 2:10 and 3:10 and those are Philadelphia and Shmyrna who both taught who the Kenites were. The Kenites claim to be Jews and are not, they are of the synagogue (church / House) of Satan. I'll not go into the Kenite teaching again, but if you want to search I have written plenty of times about those who kill the prophets from Abel to Zacharias, and who killed Abel? Come on folks, this is kindergarten stuff.

Jesus told them boldly who they were and they killed him for it. The apostles spread the truth, and by god, Satan knew he had to shut them the hell up! So, he joined them in the guise of a turn cloak, Paul. Once Rome was "converted" and took over, Christianity was nothing but another tool to herd mankind. Now that it's done it's part, it's time to dismantle it, tear it down, and bring in the new and improved christianity, that there was no crucified Christ, but that he was an example of the Godman, and you are too. What a crock of crap! The oldest lie in the universe, that "I am God". Yes, it works every time.

The bible is inerrant, but only if you read it in context and not take a scripture from one place and another and make up what suits your itching ears to hear! There is not one truth that is not revealed in the bible. It's ignorant "teachers" who unrightly divide the word and sew confusion amongst the children and there is a special warning for them. Woe unto you who causes the least of my children to stumble, it would be better had you never been born.

[deridan]

well said Chris

dogma tries to deal with the fallen state of men,
anyone enlightened has to drop dogma, much like one has to let go of a rope which has brought one from somewhere below the precipitous,
the plateau needs different co-ordinates,

where do all the religions come from, ... well i wish i could speak as an expert who has taken all things in, but one has also to know that christianity (the central tale, of triune, and a dieing and resurrecting hero) seems to follow a blue-print that was around in ancient eqyptian mystery religions, and that not being the only one,
came across the Zoroastrian and even a Nazarenne blue print (will see what that yields if i have the time {the zoroastrians were the first to see a pure man as being able to defeat evil, and the Nazarenes, well, as said, none of the great figures, even Jesus is/was of a religion,...so it would be to see how the Nazarene system affected what we perceived as his teachings__or atleast what the church has made it up to be})...{i've found redice to be a great resource on these many aspects, yet it should not influence our decision to make contact with the divine [it would seem asif the 'helper levels' which dalores canon has accessed has substantiated that we do infact make contact with something, from that pure state of joyjubilation let us then move, for the mechanizations which influence blind society are not our concern]}..

[RedeZra]

The sages may have different forms and persona but formless they are One.



yes the Impersonal Self as they say

but if we trust Jesus then God is Personal


two different doctrines

about the point purpose and destiny of life

[gripreaper]

Jesus comes with a package

His words

oh but we don't know what He said

so we're gonna close the Book and philosophise

about what He was saying

do the adults here understand the insanity in this ?

Does anyone else think that this is quite presumptuous to speak for others and claim to know what is in another's heart? Claiming to know whether or not they feel what Jesus said? So it's insane to not follow the dogma prescribed by Red?

Oh come on gripreaper, he's just trying to save you and is coming from the only place he knows how, he's harmless, right?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m68xypzZKl1rqmqv3.gif
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m68xvfRMbY1rqmqv3.gif

[RedeZra]

Jesus comes with a package

His words



Claiming to know whether or not they feel what Jesus said?


you feel what Jesus really said and meant

and so the written words must be wrong

when you don't feel it's right


http://www.funmazalive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Funny-gifs-3.gif

[greybeard]

The sages may have different forms and persona but formless they are One.



yes the Impersonal Self as they say

but if we trust Jesus then God is Personal


two different doctrines

about the point purpose and destiny of life

Ah but is it a different end result?
"The Father and I are One" is the word of Jesus.
Jesus said we can do what he has done.
Enlightenment is a state where there is no person left.
The caterpillar has become the butterfly so to speak.
The seeming individual has realised that duality is Maya (illusion), it is not True, and reality is One without a second.
The enlightened sage throughout history has reported from direct experience exactly the same Truth.
Only God is.
The sage can truthfully say " I am the totality, all of it"
God became all without diminishing Himself.
So God is formless, form, both and neither.
This is beyond human comprehension.
The sage seems human because persona remains but is actually not in the human state of duality.
The full realised enlightened state is non location-- timeless--not personal etc.
There are degrees of enlightenment.
That is the best I can do to explain the unexplainable.

Regards Chris

[Wiremu2011]

RedeZRA. My first post on this thread and I'm glad it's thrown around for others to question the Bible because it's a very viable subject that should be scrutinized like anything else. But I cant help notice you have a very cocky tone in your response to those giving you a fair, decent and intelligent debate about it.
Do you think Jesus would approve of the smirk you often portray in your remarks as part of the humility expected of you, as one who claims to be a wholehearted believer?

[RedeZra]

RedeZRA. My first post on this thread and I'm glad it's thrown around for others to question the Bible because it's a very viable subject that should be scrutinized like anything else. But I cant help notice you have a very cocky tone in your response to those giving you a fair, decent and intelligent debate about it.
Do you think Jesus would approve of the smirk you often portray in your remarks as part of the humility expected of you, as one who claims to be a wholehearted believer?



who are you ?

do you come to my thread to insult me ?


repent

[RedeZra]

yes the Impersonal Self as they say

but if we trust Jesus then God is Personal




Enlightenment is a state where there is no person left.




yes this is the state of enlightenment as reported by sages

no person left


but according to Jesus we will still be persons in Heaven or hell

[Wiremu2011]

"I AM" Wiremu2011 :). This thread is part of the PA forum thank you, and I'm just voicing my observation of this thread and some of your responses to those who challenge your thinking about the Bible - which IMO doesn't display the humility expected of one who so passionately believes in it (as far as we can ascertain). And you still didn't answer my question.

[SKIBADABOMSKI]

What is wrong with inciting intense dislike of a religion if the activities or teachings of that religion are so outrageous, irrational or abusive of human rights that they deserve to be intensely disliked?

[greybeard]

yes the Impersonal Self as they say

but if we trust Jesus then God is Personal




Enlightenment is a state where there is no person left.




yes this is the state of enlightenment as reported by sages

no person left


but according to Jesus we will still be persons in Heaven or hell

That is true when there is a seeming individual to go to heaven or hell.
Jesus was not speaking to enlightened sages.

The moment something is taken out of context it looses its original meaning.
Chris

[RedeZra]

"I AM" Wiremu2011 :). This thread is part of the PA forum thank you, and I'm just voicing my observation of this thread and some of your responses to those who challenge your thinking about the Bible - which IMO doesn't display the humility expected of one who so passionately believes in it (as far as we can ascertain). And you still didn't answer my question.


hello Wiremu


perhaps you're a psychiatrist

since you're more concerned about my personality traits

then discussing the topic in this thread


i hope you understand that it's kinda cocky of you to come and characterize me in a not so positive way in your first post here


not even i am pleasing to everyone


and btw what you think is intelligent does not necessarily make it so

and i am a humble warrior ; )

like you maybe ?



¤=[Post Update]=¤









yes the Impersonal Self as they say

but if we trust Jesus then God is Personal




Enlightenment is a state where there is no person left.




yes this is the state of enlightenment as reported by sages

no person left


but according to Jesus we will still be persons in Heaven or hell


That is true when there is a seeming individual to go to heaven or hell.
Jesus was not speaking to enlightened sages.




but Jesus is God

the Creator


i think He knows what He is talking about

[RedeZra]

What is wrong with inciting intense dislike of a religion if the activities or teachings of that religion are so outrageous, irrational or abusive of human rights that they deserve to be intensely disliked?


well what is so outrageous with Christianity ?


i agree that today the Vatican and many churches are taken over by the ptb

but the foundation is still sound and strong

Christ

[Wiremu2011]

What is wrong with inciting intense dislike of a religion if the activities or teachings of that religion are so outrageous, irrational or abusive of human rights that they deserve to be intensely disliked?


well what is so outrageous with Christianity ?


i agree that today the Vatican and many churches are taken over by the ptb

but the foundation is still sound and strong

Christ

And where is the hard core evidence for the so called "FOUNDATION" to which you refer RedEzra? Where do you start? Perhaps at the Council of Nicea or some other place? ...which upon now there are 660 versions trolling the earth with supposedly the same meaning/interpretation..hello??? Now all those (Catholic, Protestants and all the denominations created within..) that hold dear to their own versions create nothing but division and separation. DIVISION AND SEPARATION and one more time SEPARATION AND DIVISION"
Cant you smell a rat bro???

[RedeZra]

well what is so outrageous with Christianity ?


i agree that today the Vatican and many churches are taken over by the ptb

but the foundation is still sound and strong

Christ


And where is the hard core evidence for the so called "FOUNDATION" to which you refer RedEzra? Where do you start? Perhaps at the Council of Nicea or some other place? ...which upon now there are 660 versions trolling the earth with supposedly the same meaning/interpretation..hello??? Now all those (Catholic, Protestants and all the denominations created within..) that hold dear to their own versions create nothing but division and separation. DIVISION AND SEPARATION and one more time SEPARATION AND DIVISION"
Cant you smell a rat bro???


sure i smell sulphur

satan has been struggling with the Church for a long time

and he has been successful in separating and subverting much of Christianity


but this is no surprise as it is foretold in the Bible


and if you take the time to compare the versions

then you will see there is little or no differences in the verses


the ptb who take their orders from the devil has debunked the Bible

and that ought to be if not proof then at least evidence that the bible is true


then we got thousands of testimonies about the living reality of Jesus

and artifacts and facts backing up the Bible

censored and suppressed by the ptb of course

but still available to the public at large if they bother to look for it

[gripreaper]

Claiming to know whether or not they feel what Jesus said?

you feel what Jesus really said and meant

and so the written words must be wrong

when you don't feel it's right

Quit playing semantics with my words and even slightly suggesting that you have any idea whatsoever what is within the content of my heart. I find your judgmental attitude quite disturbing, and your condescending attitude that you are the purveyor of absolute truth because you have "found" it and YOU understand it and the rest of us don't, because we don't UNDERSTAND what Jesus said? The height of arrogance is absolutely appalling to me and does not represent love and compassion at all..

If your intent is to incite others, then you have succeeded. If your intent is to reach out with love and compassion then you have failed miserably. At least with ME and my personal opinion. I guess I better be clear about that.

[Unified Serenity]

Most versions of the bible offer small nuance changes. For instance, I cut my teeth on the New International Version Study bible. You see, there is a a NIV that is not a Study bible and there is one that also is a study bible in that it offers a chain method to trace a word throughout the bible. It has commentary notes etc.. There are versions of the KJV that are straight bible, then there are study bibles, then group study bibles, then inspirational reading, child versions etc.. The biggest differences I think come when one contains the Apocrypha and another does not. The Latin Vulgate vs. the Septuagint. My second study bible was called the Open bible, I loved that one, but I kept my NIV study bible as my favorite. I love looking back at all the notes I wrote in the margins, underlines, and key thoughts on back pages. It's like a year book from days gone by.

Another great version is called the Companion bible with the studies and notes of EW Bullinger. It's a must for any serious student imho.

Afterwards, I found out about the Jewish New Testament which was AWESOME! It put things back into perspective. The names of the apostles and various other peoples were anglicized and in the JNT they were put back. John was Yochanon, Mary was Miriam, Jesus was Yeshua, Peter was Kefa, Matthew was Mattityahu or something like that. The high priest was the Cohen ha gadol, the Holy Spirit was the Ruach ha Koddesh, Samuel was Shmuel, David was David. The author, David Stern, has since done the complete bible, and incorporated the JNT into it. Here is the explanation of why he embarked on this journey.

About the Complete Jewish Bible
Why is this Bible different from all other Bibles?

"Because it is the only English version of the Bible fully Jewish in style and presentation that includes both the Tanakh ("Old Testament") and the B'rit Hadashah (New Covenant, "New Testament"). Even its title, the Complete Jewish Bible, challenges both Jews and Christians to see that the whole Bible is Jewish, the B'rit Hadashah as well as the Tanakh. Jews are challenged by the implication that without it the Tanakh is an incomplete Bible. Christians are challenged with the fact that they are joined to the Jewish people through faith in the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua (Jesus) -- so that because Christianity can be rightly understood only from a Jewish perspective, anti-Semitism is condemned absolutely and forever. In short, the Complete Jewish Bible restores the Jewish unity of the Bible. Also for the first time the information needed for the synagogue readings from the Torah and the Prophets is completely integrated with similar use of the B'rit Hadashah. "

http://www.onlinebible.org/html/eng/bible-info/complete-jewish-bible.html http://www.onlinebible.org/grap/cjb_cover.jpg



Why does this matter? Well, understanding idioms, names, and Jewish thought of a Jewish Messiah who lived in Judea and practiced Judaism just makes sense. Of course they have some changes that are more deeply explained passages and how one can read the same passage written two different ways and get a different meaning, but what is important is what did the known texts really say? For instance, in Romans, we read, Jesus is the end of the law. Yet in the Jewish New Testament we read, "Yeshua is the goal to which the Torah aims." It says the same thing, but people will interpret one a certain way and another a completely different way. Since the Gentiles took over Messianic Judaism and turned it into Christianity of course they want to abolish the Jewish roots, Jewish festivals etc.

My point is you can use the bible to say what you want it to say, or you can read it with a heart seeking truth and in a moment of confusion ask God to help you to understand, and guide you to the means to understand. One of the best means I found was going back to the source. Get a King James Version of the Bible and a comprehensive Strong's Concordance and JP Green's Interlinear Lexicon. There you will have definitive proof of what a text is saying. That is how I found out that in Genesis, there was no snake even talked about. The word in Hebrew can be written in three ways depending on the "jots and tittles" and each way has a slightly different meaning, one of which is snake, but the earliest known texts it is not snake, but shining one. If the sun hits the scales of a snake just right they glisten. If the sun hits brass it glistens. The word was Nachash, but again it has 3 meanings depending on the marks.

Here is another lie as it is said, "Do not suffer a witch to live" is in the bible, but it's a lie. The bible does not condemn witches. It condemned people who practiced making potions as in pharmaceuticals to poison others. The word witch is not in the bible, well it's not in the manuscripts. It was quite handy to have it in the English version when those misogynistic men wanted to steal the women's land and stop them from being healers. So, they made sure that a witch was to be killed in the bible, but the word witch is not there in the real manuscripts.

I encourage you to examine your complaints about the bible and find out if they are well founded or just things some person told you that you logically and rightly said, "That's nuts". The problem is, the evil one wants you to not only say "That's nuts" but by all means necessary to never ever read the bible again, and if you do, it is only to try to prove it wrong. Why not investigate what it really says. Download the E-sword program, it's free. You can do your own searches, readings, it has a built in Strong's concordance. You can add various other versions of the bible as well. It's really an amazing program. There is only one question I have not found the answer to at this point in my search. Some that used to bug the bejeeeezus out of me I finally got my answers to, and yep, it had to do with customs of the ancient times. This last one, well, I don't really think it can be defended on it's face value, but I am still searching.

http://www.e-sword.net/

http://www.e-sword.net/images/screenshot.jpg

[Lettherebelight]

Another difference is that the seeking of enlightenment is radically different from being a "good" Christian/Buddhist/Moslem/Hindu etc.
All personal identification has to be released-- all belief systems/ opinions/ concepts/ labels/fundamentalism etc have to go.




humanity is divided by religions or ideologies

but i doubt God has a Multiple Personality Disorder


so where do all these religions come from ?

now that is a can of worms

God is way beyond the sectarian religions of this planet, or any other. Unlimited. We can't box Him/Her in to fit our little version of reality.

Like Unified Serenity said, God can only be realised through sincerity and devotion. I think most here understand this?

There is a nice chapter in the Bhagavada Gita called 'Divisions of Faith' which explains how everyone worships according to their own Nature...very interesting. Please don't take that as advertising one scripture over another...lol

...I think the Bible is great, if it helps one become closer to God and if you can find an authentic version...it has been changed a lot. Thank you ,Unified Serenity, for the previous post regarding the meaning of words and their usage in the Bible. Very interesting!

[lookbeyond]

:happy:Hello, thankyou for this great post Unified Serenity, I am also interested in biblical interpretation.

Kind Reguards, lookbeyond

[RedeZra]

I find your judgmental attitude quite disturbing, and your condescending attitude that you are the purveyor of absolute truth because you have "found" it and YOU understand it and the rest of us don't, because we don't UNDERSTAND what Jesus said? The height of arrogance is absolutely appalling to me and does not represent love and compassion at all..


i do not judge and i don't mind if you do not see things my way

but i will discuss it with you and especially if you voice them here in this thread


and i don't like your cheap characterisation of me

so if you are not able to debate like an adult

then be still




If your intent is to incite others, then you have succeeded. If your intent is to reach out with love and compassion then you have failed miserably. At least with ME and my personal opinion. I guess I better be clear about that.


my intent is to let the Bible speak about God and our place and purpose in this creation of God

and i repeat and report the written words as literal as possible

and try not to fall for fancy interpretations not called for in the Book itself


so if you don't like what the Bible says then what can i do about that

[RedeZra]

humanity is divided by religions or ideologies

but i doubt God has a Multiple Personality Disorder


so where do all these religions come from ?

now that is a can of worms


God is way beyond the sectarian religions of this planet, or any other. Unlimited. We can't box Him/Her in to fit our little version of reality.




i agree light


but do we live once or many times ?

where will we be when we die ?

what is the age and end this world ?

what is the point purpose and destiny of humanity ?


these are important questions

and depending on the religion or ideology

we got different answers


and that is just not good enough for serious seekers of truth

[RedeZra]

if you believe...


- there is no Almighty God

- there is no Son of God

- there is no angels nor demons

- there is no Heaven and hell

- and the devil is not god of this age

- or Jesus is not coming back to Judge


then you don't believe the Bible

[heyokah]

if you believe...


- there is no Almighty God

- there is no Son of God

- there is no angels nor demons

- there is no Heaven and hell

- and the devil is not god of this age

- or Jesus is not coming back to Judge


then you don't believe the Bible

RIGHT !!

So what ......


Please DON'T answer RedeZra !
That will be wasted energy.

[RedeZra]

RIGHT !!

So what ......


Please DON'T answer RedeZra !
That will be wasted energy.


if you don't want me to answer

then why did you post ?


so what ?

your enemy has tricked you


nothing more nothing less

[Lettherebelight]

humanity is divided by religions or ideologies

but i doubt God has a Multiple Personality Disorder


so where do all these religions come from ?

now that is a can of worms


God is way beyond the sectarian religions of this planet, or any other. Unlimited. We can't box Him/Her in to fit our little version of reality.




i agree light


but do we live once or many times ?

where will we be when we die ?

what is the age and end this world ?

what is the point purpose and destiny of humanity ?


these are important questions

and depending on the religion or ideology

we got different answers


and that is just not good enough for serious seekers of truth

That is good enough. I understand that people have different conceptions of the Absolute Truth. No problem. The Prime Minister, or King (whatever) is approached differently by his wife, his children, other Heads of State, the public...they will all have different relationships with him. But that doesn't mean he's not in charge, he is still the boss.

You get as much information as you can process, or accept. I have answers to the above questions, but I know you think we differ in understanding. To me however, there is no conflict between the two perspectives. No conflict at all. Jesus said (paraphrasing here) ' I have so much more to tell you, but you could not bear it'.

I am not referring to you of course, I can see you have a great devotion for God! just saying that none of us know absolutely everything about God...would you agree?

[SKIBADABOMSKI]

The Egg
By: Andy Weir

You were on your way home when you died.
It was a car accident. Nothing particularly remarkable, but fatal nonetheless. You left behind a wife and two children. It was a painless death. The EMTs tried their best to save you, but to no avail. Your body was so utterly shattered you were better off, trust me.
And that’s when you met me.
“What… what happened?” You asked. “Where am I?”
“You died,” I said, matter-of-factly. No point in mincing words.
“There was a… a truck and it was skidding…”
“Yup,” I said.
“I… I died?”
“Yup. But don’t feel bad about it. Everyone dies,” I said.
You looked around. There was nothingness. Just you and me. “What is this place?” You asked. “Is this the afterlife?”
“More or less,” I said.
“Are you god?” You asked.
“Yup,” I replied. “I’m God.”
“My kids… my wife,” you said.
“What about them?”
“Will they be all right?”
“That’s what I like to see,” I said. “You just died and your main concern is for your family. That’s good stuff right there.”
You looked at me with fascination. To you, I didn’t look like God. I just looked like some man. Or possibly a woman. Some vague authority figure, maybe. More of a grammar school teacher than the almighty.
“Don’t worry,” I said. “They’ll be fine. Your kids will remember you as perfect in every way. They didn’t have time to grow contempt for you. Your wife will cry on the outside, but will be secretly relieved. To be fair, your marriage was falling apart. If it’s any consolation, she’ll feel very guilty for feeling relieved.”
“Oh,” you said. “So what happens now? Do I go to heaven or hell or something?”
“Neither,” I said. “You’ll be reincarnated.”
“Ah,” you said. “So the Hindus were right,”
“All religions are right in their own way,” I said. “Walk with me.”
You followed along as we strode through the void. “Where are we going?”
“Nowhere in particular,” I said. “It’s just nice to walk while we talk.”
“So what’s the point, then?” You asked. “When I get reborn, I’ll just be a blank slate, right? A baby. So all my experiences and everything I did in this life won’t matter.”
“Not so!” I said. “You have within you all the knowledge and experiences of all your past lives. You just don’t remember them right now.”
I stopped walking and took you by the shoulders. “Your soul is more magnificent, beautiful, and gigantic than you can possibly imagine. A human mind can only contain a tiny fraction of what you are. It’s like sticking your finger in a glass of water to see if it’s hot or cold. You put a tiny part of yourself into the vessel, and when you bring it back out, you’ve gained all the experiences it had.
“You’ve been in a human for the last 48 years, so you haven’t stretched out yet and felt the rest of your immense consciousness. If we hung out here for long enough, you’d start remembering everything. But there’s no point to doing that between each life.”
“How many times have I been reincarnated, then?”
“Oh lots. Lots and lots. An in to lots of different lives.” I said. “This time around, you’ll be a Chinese peasant girl in 540 AD.”
“Wait, what?” You stammered. “You’re sending me back in time?”
“Well, I guess technically. Time, as you know it, only exists in your universe. Things are different where I come from.”
“Where you come from?” You said.
“Oh sure,” I explained “I come from somewhere. Somewhere else. And there are others like me. I know you’ll want to know what it’s like there, but honestly you wouldn’t understand.”
“Oh,” you said, a little let down. “But wait. If I get reincarnated to other places in time, I could have interacted with myself at some point.”
“Sure. Happens all the time. And with both lives only aware of their own lifespan you don’t even know it’s happening.”
“So what’s the point of it all?”
“Seriously?” I asked. “Seriously? You’re asking me for the meaning of life? Isn’t that a little stereotypical?”
“Well it’s a reasonable question,” you persisted.
I looked you in the eye. “The meaning of life, the reason I made this whole universe, is for you to mature.”
“You mean mankind? You want us to mature?”
“No, just you. I made this whole universe for you. With each new life you grow and mature and become a larger and greater intellect.”
“Just me? What about everyone else?”
“There is no one else,” I said. “In this universe, there’s just you and me.”
You stared blankly at me. “But all the people on earth…”
“All you. Different incarnations of you.”
“Wait. I’m everyone!?”
“Now you’re getting it,” I said, with a congratulatory slap on the back.
“I’m every human being who ever lived?”
“Or who will ever live, yes.”
“I’m Abraham Lincoln?”
“And you’re John Wilkes Booth, too,” I added.
“I’m Hitler?” You said, appalled.
“And you’re the millions he killed.”
“I’m Jesus?”
“And you’re everyone who followed him.”
You fell silent.
“Every time you victimized someone,” I said, “you were victimizing yourself. Every act of kindness you’ve done, you’ve done to yourself. Every happy and sad moment ever experienced by any human was, or will be, experienced by you.”
You thought for a long time.
“Why?” You asked me. “Why do all this?”
“Because someday, you will become like me. Because that’s what you are. You’re one of my kind. You’re my child.”
“Whoa,” you said, incredulous. “You mean I’m a god?”
“No. Not yet. You’re a fetus. You’re still growing. Once you’ve lived every human life throughout all time, you will have grown enough to be born.”
“So the whole universe,” you said, “it’s just…”
“An egg.” I answered. “Now it’s time for you to move on to your next life.”
And I sent you on your way.

[RedeZra]

these are important questions

and depending on the religion or ideology

we got different answers


and that is just not good enough for serious seekers of truth


That is good enough. I understand that people have diferent conceptions of the Absolute Truth.

just saying that none of us know absolutely everything about God...would you agree?


yes of course

i do not question God but i do question religions since they pretend to be teachings from God


i do not think God taught different doctrines to different people

so something is seriously not right here

[greybeard]

The eye that is looking at God is the same eye that is looking back.
Enlightened ones are uniform in what they say for thousands of year.
That is their "personal" knowing--- not learned from anyone else, not out of any book, culture, or conditioning.
Its a direct realisation of Truth.

Chris

[Unified Serenity]

I encourage those who are interested in line upon line dividing of the word to be willing to listen to this lecture from Arnold Murray. Avail yourself of this information, and decide if what he is sharing line upon line is accurate:

Speaking in Tongues - 1

MZ87yEuG6xA

Speaking in Tongues - 2

OFIpiNiyn6s

I could have done this in a post, but why repeat what another has done so well as above.

[SKIBADABOMSKI]

Hey Red,

This should cheer you up.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4400172/I-found-Jesus-on-door-of-Chinese-takeaway-in-Sunderland.html

[Unified Serenity]

One of the problems many face is that they are left to listen to others who have researched and do not know how to verify what is taught for themselves. Many have been turned away from the bible because of traditions of man that make no sense to even a child, but they go along for years until they finally say, "It's just man's words, and its a prison. I am not going to be a prisoner and thus I am going to never read the bible or go to church or listen to a christian again."

This is all done by accident and by purpose as we get wolves in sheeps clothing sewing confusion by misapplying the bible texts. So, how do you study for yourself? Well, first note I said, study. A student must want to learn from a hunger and thirst for truth which hopefully comes from a hunger and thirst to know the one who loves each soul so much so as to send messengers to impart truth to us here. This video shows how you can study for yourself to know what is really said, and not trust what some person says. Dennis Murray tends to be a bit dry, but I think this video is pretty useful for the beginning student.

c1ppHeUlZf0

[RedeZra]

Glory to God


because His blood

bought us back


to God and goodness

from the devil and evil


He paid the price for our sins

so we would live and not die


eternally


http://thetheologicalbrute.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/christ-crucified.jpg


don't you dare let the devil trick you down with him

if you don't want to crucify the Son of God again

just to spill His blood for nothing

[RedeZra]

The eye that is looking at God is the same eye that is looking back.
Enlightened ones are uniform in what they say for thousands of year.
That is their "personal" knowing--- not learned from anyone else, not out of any book, culture, or conditioning.
Its a direct realisation of Truth.

Chris


the enlightened are probably possessed

not by the Holy spirit but by the spirit of shakti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti)





test the spirits


Uq59KQV9wgY



feet don't fail me now

run back to the Cross

[Unified Serenity]

Uq59KQV9wgY



feet don't fail me now

run back to the Cross [/CENTER]

This man's testimony seems sincere, but it's sad that is does not line up with the actual word of God. I posted the video going line upon line regarding tongues. Show me where this Pastor who is a bible scholar made one mistake. The word "unknown" is not in the manuscripts when it says they spoke in an unknown tongue. The Greek word regarding tongues in the passages where Paul is talking about going to other churches and you speak in an unnaturally acquired tongue means one you did not get growing up. I have a naturally acquired tongue of English and have unnaturally acquired French and Hebrew. I am not fluent in them and thus if I were to wish to share a message at a church / synogogue that the predominant language was French or Hebrew, then it's best I take a translator who can impart the message with anointing so it does not lose it's effect in translation.

[RedeZra]

This man's testimony seems sincere, but it's sad that is does not line up with the actual word of God.


For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands [him]; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. - 1 Corinthians 14:2

[greybeard]

A lot of Sai Baba devotees were badly hurt when the stories began to surface,
I have no opinion on this but the advice I follow is ---put no head above your own (God/Jesus an exception).
Its the teaching not the teacher that points the way.
Seek ye first the Kingdom of God
The Kingdom of God is within.
Its not to be found externally ie in any book or teaching though they point to it.
Heaven is found within, it is your true Self.
The enlightened say God is Love and very few have even mentioned Shakti or Kundalini for that matter.
Quite a few Dr David Hawkins just one example have pointed out that Jesus is the Saviour.
Eckhart Tolle quotes Jesus as do many Western enlightened teachers.
So while there is a history of fallen gurus-- you cant lump all enlightened into that basket.


Chris

[RedeZra]

So while there is a history of fallen gurus-- you cant lump all enlightened into that basket.

Chris


if enlightenment is actually possession by a powerful lying spirit

then the enlightened need an exorcism

to stop the possession and the lies

[Unified Serenity]

This man's testimony seems sincere, but it's sad that is does not line up with the actual word of God.


For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands [him]; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. - 1 Corinthians 14:2

Nice cherry picking of scripture there Red. The fact is Paul is speaking about the fact that if you go into a church and speak English and all they understand is Russian then of course God understands you, but none of the people there would understand the wonderful message you are trying to share with them about all you have discovered in the mysteries of God and therefore he says you would be better to speak 5 words they do understand than a thousand they don't understand.

Again, the video I posted doesn't seem to be of interest to you, did you watch it?

[RedeZra]

This man's testimony seems sincere, but it's sad that is does not line up with the actual word of God.




And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples

he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."

Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. - Acts 19:1-6



what language the Spirit of God

spoke through this adopted son Ron

i don't know and he doesn't know

God knows




"God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - Jhn 4:24


For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. - 1Cr 14:14


He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. - 1Cr 14:4


Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us [fn] with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit [is], because He makes intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God. - Rom 8:26-27

[Beren]

"God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - Jhn 4:24

This is crucial.
Always!

Everything depends upon this one feature or action.

If not having this or being "in this"- meaning in spirit of truth - then you 're not aligned with God.
For God is a spirit.

Here everything is explained about God - for those who will see it , namely God is energy of life and Love. God is.
God is spirit hence neither man or woman, he or she and IS everything.

Everywhere,every time,above time,below time,here and there.

And here we find this gem in Bible. But aswell in other works too.

This tells us that we cannot be closed minded to say that God uses exclusively one way to communicate with his beings or all life.
Who is the one who can tell God how to speak?

Very rock would speak if God wants so.
Again this also tells us that everything is alive too.

Nature and animals and energies invisible to human eyes.

[RedeZra]

"God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - Jhn 4:24


If not having this or being "in this"- meaning in spirit of truth - then you 're not aligned with God.
For God is a spirit.

God is spirit hence neither man or woman, he or she and IS everything.

This tells us that we cannot be closed minded to say that God uses exclusively one way to communicate with his beings or all life.
Who is the one who can tell God how to speak?



the Son of God spoke what God told Him

so we don't have to guess what God wants

it is written in red ink in the Bible

protected by the Blood of the Word


who spoke the world into being

hung the earth on nothing and put a plasma ball in thin air

we are living within a work of God

called the creation

and nobody else can create an earth


God is Spirit

but so are angels fallen or not

little finite spirits

compared to and created by

God the Spirit


satan is just a finite spirit

who bases his deceptive work in the world on two big lies


you will not surely die

you will be like God


read reincarnation and God realisation


huge lies which will trick many into not seeking the redemptive Blood of the Son of God

and so not receive an inheritance in the Kingdom of God

[Beren]

"God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - Jhn 4:24


If not having this or being "in this"- meaning in spirit of truth - then you 're not aligned with God.
For God is a spirit.

God is spirit hence neither man or woman, he or she and IS everything.

This tells us that we cannot be closed minded to say that God uses exclusively one way to communicate with his beings or all life.
Who is the one who can tell God how to speak?



the Son of God spoke what God told Him

so we don't have to guess what God wants

it is written in red ink in the Bible

protected by the Blood of the Word


who spoke the world into being

hung the earth on nothing and put a plasma ball in thin air

we are living within a work of God

called the creation

and nobody else can create an earth


God is Spirit

but so are angels fallen or not

little finite spirits

compared to and created by

God the Spirit


satan is just a finite spirit

who bases his deceptive work in the world on two big lies


you will not surely die

you will be like God


read reincarnation and God realisation


huge lies which will trick many into not seeking the redemptive Blood of the Son of God

and so not receive an inheritance in the Kingdom of God

I know this but here`s the point Red,

Deceiver stated that WHEN they try the fruit they will be as God or become God and eyes will be open.
Deceiver simply brushed out the fact that they were already God`s children thus by inheritance Gods themselves so why the need to become one that you already are?

Here we see the deceiver- twister of truth.

Secondly surely you will not die was a deep statement and a lie.
At that point humans didn`t know what is death while in body.

Later one we saw through Bible and Jesus that death is a stage of life , inevitable sign of change.
By stating that they will not die , deceiver lied about the natural circles of Universe where everything moves on continuously, there cannot be a stop.

Hencefore they died but Jesus returned us to life by his blood ( life force from God).
So believing in literal blood is nonsense but believing or knowing the life force in blood of lamb or Jesus (all this is a figure of speech) is the life.

All that we saw written in Bible and other works is always multileveled.

From beginners in understanding to the grown ups in knowing.

Why Jesus came from spirit realm in the first place?
To elevate the consciousness by all means.

This is the crux of the matter, stories about blood,service,sacrifice,preaching and else are there as tools for lower and various consciousnesses to be lifted up.

Anyone who cries about bloodthirsty God should look deeper into things and above bias of religion and dogma of various sects and people from all continents aswell as spiritual beings with their influences.

Bible is a good tool but eventually you have to either raise up into God`s embrace and Love or be boggled down with need for written word as the last stand in your level of consciousness.
No good tool should be wasted or thrown ,just used properly.

[RedeZra]

Deceiver stated that WHEN they try the fruit they will be as God or become God and eyes will be open.
Deceiver simply brushed out the fact that they were already God`s children thus by inheritance Gods themselves so why the need to become one that you already are?


Adam and Eve were not God and will never ever be nor become God

and neither will we


satan wanted to be God

and so he fell with our first parents


pride is a powerful deception










Secondly surely you will not die was a deep statement and a lie.
At that point humans didn`t know what is death while in body.

Later one we saw through Bible and Jesus that death is a stage of life , inevitable sign of change.
By stating that they will not die , deceiver lied about the natural circles of Universe where everything moves on continuously, there cannot be a stop.

Hencefore they died but Jesus returned us to life by his blood ( life force from God).
So believing in literal blood is nonsense but believing or knowing the life force in blood of lamb or Jesus (all this is a figure of speech) is the life.


Jesus spilt literal blood

because it takes the Blood of God to pay the price for the sins of humanity


if Jesus did not spill His blood

not figuratively but very literal

then our souls would be condemn to death and damnation by our own sins


so sin is not just serious

it is a matter of life and death

and only the Blood of God can forgive our sins and so atone for our souls

not figuratively but literal


it is done and it is shed

so no need to go to hell


Just accept Jesus

and stop sinning

He is the only bridge across Hades



"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." - John 14:21

[GCS1103]

Does anyone have an opinion about the following:

Assume there is a kind-hearted and loving person...this person has never been exposed to the teachings of Jesus or the Bible, because he/she was never made aware of his existence. (someone living in a small village outside of society). If this person is totally unaware of Jesus, will they be denied entrance to the eternal kingdom? I've asked this question of many people and there is always a split of opinion. Personally, I can't imagine God denying an innocent, unaware human being of their place in heaven, because they were never exposed to this knowledge.

What are your thoughts about a situation like this?

[modwiz]

Does anyone have an opinion about the following:

Assume there is a kind-hearted and loving person...this person has never been exposed to the teachings of Jesus or the Bible, because he/she was never made aware of his existence. (someone living in a small village outside of society). If this person is totally unaware of Jesus, will they be denied entrance to the eternal kingdom? I've asked this question of many people and there is always a split of opinion. Personally, I can't imagine God denying an innocent, unaware human being of their place in heaven, because they were never exposed to this knowledge.

What are your thoughts about a situation like this?

I can't imagine denial into the place a good spirit belongs in. I think it is sad that we even have such a denial of entry scenario anywhere in our programming. I'm pretty sure I know how Red feels about this and I have no problem with it as a personal belief. Such beliefs affect the believer only, unless that believer has the power to affect others. Red's efforts are appreciated for what they are. He believes his information is crucial for us to to experience the best outcome. Can't fault that motivation.

[RedeZra]

What are your thoughts about a situation like this?


this is a compassionate question

but it assumes that God is not aware of every heart

and so not able to guide and guard those who want to do right and good


life is all about loving compassion and righteous conduct

and if we want that then God wants us in His kingdom

[Unified Serenity]

I believe God does not judge the ignorant harshly, but those who willfully deny truth when presented and lift themselves above and say they are God and know what is best.

I grew up with a lot of people where the truths presented in the bible are never allowed and they were beautiful souls who lived a life of love and giving to one another. I cannot judge anyone, and thus I must just trust that God is loving and compassionate in all decisions.

[greybeard]

The core of Jesus message is love all--- without exception.
He said "God forgive them for they know not what they do"
So Jesus asked God to forgive those who lacked knowledge or understanding of his teaching.
He wasn’t just limiting it to his followers-- then or now.
God being all wise loving and compassionate understands that there are different cultures and to each gave a suitable way/teachers for their situation.

Whatever Sai Baba was, I think most of his teaching was valid--- Love all serve all--- Go home and be a better Christian-- Buddhist, Moslem, Hindu etc
Just two of his sayings.

The Paradox is that the enlightened sage can say I am God yet see that God as Creator is of an infinite spiritual energy while their energy, while the same is not to be compared with the Creator.
Its like comparing a 40watt bulb to the sun.
Dr David Hawkins whom I believe to be fully enlightened starts and ends his talks with Gloria in Excelsus Deo (glory to God in the Highest.)
Jesus said "You are Gods" open to misinterpretation fair enough.
There is no where that God is not so he is is within all.
The Indian culture realises this and their greeting is Namaste --- " I greet the God within you"
I think it is a big mistake to preach that only Christian go to heaven. ( thats the cause of many wars)
To imply that denies the verry essence of the teaching of Jesus.
Jesus said " In my Fathers house are many mansions"

Every hair on your head is counted -- therefore no act of kindness goes unnoticed.

Chris

[Beren]

Chris,

You said the core matter.
This is hard to grasp for all who are deliberately limited.

Jesus gave freedom but with freedom comes responsibility .

This is bugging us all - all around universe-responsibility.

You are free to do whatever you so please but every choice brings repercussions- good or bad.
Wisdom is to recognize this and act accordingly.

In previous ages on Earth nations were so primitive that they couldn`t grasp any other concept but blood.
Blood of the sacrificed animals or humans , blood as life force of the body, blood as the life `s archetype.

Hence Jesus`s blood for those who are loved beyond comprehension of their minds.
Looking from God`s view point nothing is ever wasted so if they want blood - they got it.

Just that three days afterwards Jesus comes back and says I`m alive and well ,follow me and live as I am.
This way you are united with God.

Thomas was the doubting one and an archetype of all doubtful humans everywhere .

Unless he sees flesh and blood he would not believe.
What happened ? Thomas saw for three and a half years all the force and power of God at work and he still didn`t believe...

A typical human condition of low conscience.

Jesus gave his doubt a reproval by allowing him to touch the wounds and feel the flesh and blood but said that lucky and blessed are the ones who don`t NEED flesh and blood to know, to believe ,to be.

Same is happening again .
How much more evidence we would need to embrace living Christ and God?

P.S.
Red, I think you should re examine this that we are Gods.

"Let us make man according to our image"
"Ye are gods"
"I don`t call you servants anymore but brothers"
"If you are the children you are inheritors of the blessings"

If we are God`s kids- then we are God`s flesh and blood in this realm and his essence in spirit.

By pretending that we`re not and without a desire for responsibility we make chaos.
If we would accept that God is our Father and Mother and all to us- our Creator we should accept responsibility of power of God.
Because we`re God`s own.

Future Gods each and everyone of us.

"Father and I are one"
"If you are united with me - you are with Father"

One means one.

But focus is upon acknowledging who we are and taking responsibility.
One who is branded as Satan (adversary) is the one who couldn`t take responsibility for its actions and shifted the blame upon others.

He lied that we need to become as Gods.
We were already Gods.

But our actions strayed us from this realization and we imagined that we`re lowly form of life.
United with God makes you as powerful as he is.


Sure it`s a long way towards this but eventually there it leads.

[Krullenjongen]

Does anyone have an opinion about the following:

Assume there is a kind-hearted and loving person...this person has never been exposed to the teachings of Jesus or the Bible, because he/she was never made aware of his existence. (someone living in a small village outside of society). If this person is totally unaware of Jesus, will they be denied entrance to the eternal kingdom? I've asked this question of many people and there is always a split of opinion. Personally, I can't imagine God denying an innocent, unaware human being of their place in heaven, because they were never exposed to this knowledge.

What are your thoughts about a situation like this?

I think this relates to your question.

Rom 2:12-16 (KJV)
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


I think that if someone does not have the law or any knowledge of Jesus Christ he still can be welcomed into heaven if his deeds are righteous.

[greybeard]

St Teresa (india) when asked how she managed to help the many that she did, People that many would cross the street to avoid-- lepers--untouchables) replied. " I see them all as Christ in disguise"
That is Love in action and is of the same sentiment as Namaste though many may say it without realising the truth of it.
Jesus said He was one with the Father and that we could do the same as Him and more.
That seems clear to me.

Chris

Ps from that I get that Jesus was saying in essence we are the same as He or at the very least having the same potential as He

[RedeZra]

P.S.
Red, I think you should re examine this that we are Gods.

"Let us make man according to our image"
"Ye are gods"
"I don`t call you servants anymore but brothers"
"If you are the children you are inheritors of the blessings"

If we are God`s kids- then we are God`s flesh and blood in this realm and his essence in spirit.




to me God with a capital G is the Trinity

the Father Son and the Holy spirit

the Creator


i am a creation with a potential

to do good and evil


i believe God told us in the Bible

and put it in our hearts


the knowledge of good and evil


so the promise of God is eternal life to the good

but the bad still got a life line in Jesus


there is a distinction between the Creator and all the created

so no matter how glorious we will be

God is still God alone


let us not compare ourselves to Jesus

but instead try to imitate Him

[RedeZra]

it's all true


every word we read in the Book

is preserved and protected by the Blood


this is how it is

was and will be


if we doubt the inerrancy of the Book of God

then we doubt the power of the Blood of God


spilt to save us from sin

so we would live


people this is no time for pride

this is no time to talk


Get to know God

who is waiting

wondering

why we don't seek Him


we got to take the first step

this is how it works


we got to seek Him if we want to find Him

[kreagle]

Does anyone have an opinion about the following:

Assume there is a kind-hearted and loving person...this person has never been exposed to the teachings of Jesus or the Bible, because he/she was never made aware of his existence. (someone living in a small village outside of society). If this person is totally unaware of Jesus, will they be denied entrance to the eternal kingdom? I've asked this question of many people and there is always a split of opinion. Personally, I can't imagine God denying an innocent, unaware human being of their place in heaven, because they were never exposed to this knowledge.

What are your thoughts about a situation like this?

GCS1103,

This is an "excellent question" and presents a superb opportunity to get to know our Lord God,....."even better" than we previously did. First, we need to realize that God knows "exactly what our progress report is",........whether it is "zero", (as in the scenario you have presented here),......or perhaps one might have "marginal understanding" of God's Word,....just "not enough,...or lacking". Finally, there are "those" who may have acquired a "great deal of Biblical knowledge",.....but still require an enlightening from God before they will be in total "harmony with His Gospel Message".

Regardless of the "individual's" progress report,.....whether it stands at,....."zero",....."marginal",.....or "substantial",......we can assuredly know that it's the desire of God for us to ultimately arrive at a "state of completion" in our lifetime!

2 Peter 3:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Scriptures "clearly teach us" that He is "no respecter of persons",.....so we can rest assured that "He has a plan for everyone"!

While it is fully commendable to "fret over" the isolated individual you have spoken of, GCS1103,.....let us not forget about "who" we are dealing with here,....namely our GOD,.....and His "unlimited mental capabilities"!!!

Psalm 147:3-5
King James Version (KJV)

3 He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.

4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

(point)

"If" God can tell the number of the stars. (approx. 500 billion in "our galaxy", alone.,......with 100's and 100's of billions "additional" galaxies "out there") (How many times have we "revised" our numbers,......while He already knows "exactly"?)

"If" God can even call them by their names ( "every",......last......one.....of......them!!!)

"Then" God certainly won't have "any difficulty" keeping up with a "kind-hearted, loving person" who is somewhat isolated in a remote area of our meager planet!

What a mighty God we serve!!!!

It's with "this comfort in knowing" that He has us "all accounted for",.....and knows "exactly where we are",.....that we can move on to the "next promise of God".

Ephesians 4:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

It's with "this passage" that we have the promise,.....(His Word cannot fail),......that God "will call you",........wherever you are!

You'll notice that we are "promised",.....at least,......"one calling".

No one will be able to stand,.....on the Day of Judgment,....and accuse God,......"you never called me!!!,......For He did!!!,.......He will be able to "show us our past",.....and the moment,.....of our "calling".

Once a person "answers their personal calling",....God "will then send you a "teacher", who will then "expound the way" of salvation to you!,.....He "always" does!

Note the following accounts....... (please read!)

A "marginal understanding" of God's Word.......the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-40)

.....an angel "dispatches" the Apostle Philip to this "hungry soul",......the "eunuch" doesn't understand the passage he is reading from the Book of Isaiah,........Philip "expounds" and teaches Jesus,........"eunuch" is baptized and Spirit filled,.......God "miraculously" whisks Philip away!!!!


A "great deal of Biblical knowledge"........Cornelius ("and" his household) (Acts 10:1-48)

.....an angel appears to Cornelius and "instructs him" to send his servants for the Apostle Peter,.....Peter obeys and comes to his household,......met by Cornelius and his "entire household",......Peter "expounds" and teaches Jesus,.......Cornelius and his "entire household" are baptized and Spirit filled.

....and finally....

A "zero understanding" of God's Word.........a remote "kind-hearted, loving person"

God has "plenty of angels,.....teachers,.......servants"......to send!!!!

Repentance,........Water Baptism, in Jesus' name,........Filled with the Holy Ghost!!!

......and "NOW",......they've obeyed the Gospel Message (Acts 2:38)

What a mighty God we serve!!!


Love and Peace,.........kreagle

[Beren]

P.S.
Red, I think you should re examine this that we are Gods.

"Let us make man according to our image"
"Ye are gods"
"I don`t call you servants anymore but brothers"
"If you are the children you are inheritors of the blessings"

If we are God`s kids- then we are God`s flesh and blood in this realm and his essence in spirit.




to me God with a capital G is the Trinity

the Father Son and the Holy spirit

the Creator


i am a creation with a potential

to do good and evil


i believe God told us in the Bible

and put it in our hearts


the knowledge of good and evil


so the promise of God is eternal life to the good

but the bad still got a life line in Jesus


there is a distinction between the Creator and all the created

so no matter how glorious we will be

God is still God alone


let us not compare ourselves to Jesus

but instead try to imitate Him


See, here you said "to me".
It's natural for us humans to make images of God according to our level of consciousness.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all part of Creator.
Since God is a spirit and function outside and beyond the laws of physics and above total understanding of incarnated beings for their very nature cannot grasp higher form of life, unless they themselves grow higher.
Since God is a spirit it is everywhere,omnipotent and Love itself aswell as Life itself.

It can manifest in any imaginable way since it simply can.

Thus the words in Bible that "no one seen the Father but only begotten son".

Jesus "saw" Father in its pristine form - all powerful intelligent and loving spiritual energy. Jesus saw Father when he tuned in to this frequency.

So in essence no one can see God unless they tune in this frequency.
Jesus is God embodied and God who has flesh.

But real and utter nature of God is a spirit.

Our aim is to be God embodied as Jesus was and is for his nowadays level is that he can also be whatever he wants to be and now he isn't a "he" anymore but a spirit.

Jesus came to lead us there to that stage showing us that we are God's kids thus God itself in the process of manifestation.

And yes as you say there is a distinction between God and creation but and I repeat BUT when you look through God's point of view- there isn't really.
So from our point of view when a man comes and proclaims "I am God" - he is telling the truth from ultimate point of view but from current human and other (say ET) point of view that person isn't God for they do not do the things God does.

So should we condemn this person or should we elevate him or her to better understanding of God?

God doesn't need to brag how he is God for everything around it says that God is God.
Only lower levels of consciousness brag about this.

That's why this much need road toward becoming a God.
Here lies the wisdom of Christ and how to become like God by loving God and all others.

Also comparing ourselves with Christ isn't necessary for we are each and everyone of us unique so why comparing with others?
We can tune in to Christ and let that Christ is shaped in us. We should grow in this awareness and being as Christ is. Then we become his brothers and sisters.

Then we are God embodied.

[greybeard]

So true Beren
We are consciousness (spirit) evolving to know itself as it is in True reality.
In order to know itself subject and object are needed--- time being--- duality.
Manifestation of form was necessary--- we consciousness/spirit are the in-dweller in the various forms
In reality only God is.
He became all without diminishing Himself.
Lift a stone and I am there.
That is why the truly enlightened (free from ignorance) can truthfully say "I am the totality all of it"
God is formless --- the mystic/sage/enlightened are both form, formless and beyond that concept.
That has been known for many thousands of year--- its in the ancient vedic texts.
As far as I can see Jesus said much the same thing.
Truth is Truth
Chris

[RedeZra]

And yes as you say there is a distinction between God and creation but and I repeat BUT when you look through God's point of view- there isn't really.
So from our point of view when a man comes and proclaims "I am God" - he is telling the truth from ultimate point of view but from current human and other (say ET) point of view that person isn't God for they do not do the things God does.



yes this is the eastern enlightenment view

but it is not Biblical


even i used to put the enlightened on pedestals

but they are probably just possessed by a powerful spirit



and so the argument... the enlightened says so

is like saying the colorblind have a problem with colors


true but we are not all colorblind lol

[greybeard]

Dear Red
It is definitely best not put anyone’s head above your own---The Buddha said that.
You are entitled to your opinion but that’s what it is.
Ramana Mharshi and others were speaking from a direct realisation of Truth not an opinion which can be tainted by emotionalism.
Trust not the heart.
Ramana's teaching was in my lifetime and the words were taken down verbatim not years after from memory.
Its worth looking at his life story if you haven’t already Red.
Love poured out of him.
If that's possessed well I really don’t know!!!
Please Red don’t throw the baby out with the bath water just because you no doubt had good reason to be disillusioned.
Im coming from love for you, love of Truth and I think you know that Red.
Truth is eternal and therefore existed before the Bible.
God would not have left us pre Jesus/pre Bible with out access to Truth.
Rational common-sense would point to that would it not?

Chris

St Teresa wrote a very positive resume of Dr Hawkins book and she was nobody’s fool.

[RedeZra]

Dear Red
It is definitely best not put anyone’s head above your own---The Buddha said that.
You are entitled to your opinion but that’s what it is.
Ramana Mharshi and others were speaking from a direct realisation of Truth not an opinion which can be tainted by emotionalism.
Trust not the heart.
Ramana's teaching was in my lifetime and the words were taken down verbatim not years after from memory.
Its worth looking at his life story if you haven’t already Red.
Love poured out of him.
If that's possessed well I really don’t know!!!



i know Chris and i don't like to say it

but Ramana like all the enlightened are at odds with the Bible

so something is seriously not right


as you say we should not put the head of anyone above our own

but are we not doing that with the enlightened ?


oh he is enlightened so he must know

[Beren]

And yes as you say there is a distinction between God and creation but and I repeat BUT when you look through God's point of view- there isn't really.
So from our point of view when a man comes and proclaims "I am God" - he is telling the truth from ultimate point of view but from current human and other (say ET) point of view that person isn't God for they do not do the things God does.



yes this is the eastern enlightenment view

but it is not Biblical


even i used to put the enlightened on pedestals

but they are probably just possessed by a powerful spirit



and so the argument... the enlightened says so

is like saying the colorblind have a problem with colors


true but we are not all colorblind lol


Well I don't know is it eastern or not because I can here say openly that I've never read anything from Eastern philosophy.
Didn't read Vedas, Hindu or Buddhism works,didn't went to India on holy trips, didn't visited any shaman,didn't practiced any rituals,didn't used any psychedelic substance (David Icke & ayahasca prim. out ),didn't invoke spirits form other realms, didn't followed cults of personalities, didn't do anything which many people do... I speak from what I know and understand inspired by holy spirit of God.
If I tell you that my prime source of understanding is coming directly from God by holy spirit, would you believe me?

Anyways it is so but this can be achieved by anyone on Earth. The thing is that you need to trust God and Christ deeply and grow in awareness willingly and NOT be stumbled by temporarily blockage in understanding the ways of the Lord.
Ways of the Lord are weird for humans but are full of Love and wonders along the way.
I am simply allowing the holy spirit to guide me wherever for I trust God as my Father and Christ as my Lord and brother.

Now,

didn't Jesus said that after one of the apostles wanted to bring fire down from heaven and tell others who teach in his name or similar that they couldn't?

Jesus replied that who ever isn't against him actually IS for him.

So step outside of any frame and think like God would.
Put yourself in God's shoes (we're all called to do this and it's called compassion or looking through eyes of others), and walk a bit.
You 'd see how life is.

And everybody is aligned with some spirit hence an advice in Bible that we should test all spirits so we may see which one is God's or belonging in God's family.

If you want to use the argument of something being Biblical, well in Jesus times it wasn't biblical to help your neighbor on sabbath because it would be considered work thus the breaking of God's law.
It wasn't Biblical to heal anyone in Sabbath though Jesus knew all this he didn't cared for this rule.
It was man made so he brushed it out.

Spirit is above written law.
Law of God is law of Love and is written on human hearts and souls, reconnecting with soul and heart is reconnecting with the law of God and God itself.

So you can freely put enlightened on pedestal for you are giving them an honor but they will be responsible for being united with God or not.
By elevating them you're not worshiping them just honoring - sharing love and IF THEY ARE really enlightened they will recognize this and return the same to you.

So no idolatry or false worshiping of anyone.

If enlightened says so and so - you be the wise one and test those words by the law of God which is law of Love and highest purity.
If they pass then why not listen those words form those who are enlightened?

Don't worry about people ,just be connected with God and Christ in spirit and Love and everything will sort itself out.

[Beren]

Bless you Kreagle!

[RedeZra]

If I tell you that my prime source of understanding is coming directly from God by holy spirit, would you believe me?

Anyways it is so but this can be achieved by anyone on Earth.


i would go Biblical on you ; )

[Beren]

If I tell you that my prime source of understanding is coming directly from God by holy spirit, would you believe me?

Anyways it is so but this can be achieved by anyone on Earth.


i would go Biblical on you ; )

And I would smile as Jesus would and gave you five :)
and possibly say "chill out" ...

And after some lounge on the Earth somewhere would ask you to come and carry on with aiding souls in greater understanding of God...

[truthseekerdan]

Thought is appropriate to include this link here for those that have "eyes and ears" ready to be open, and are sincere in finding 'their truth'...

iON answers the question of who is God and what is God’s name.

http://halkinnaman.com/ed/audio_rr/ion_who_is_god.mp3

Link: http://informationfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/ion-who-is-god.html

Much Love & Wisdom

[greybeard]

Its good to have in mind that those who are enlightened ancient and modern, are of all cultures --- all races-- not allied to any dogma/religion.

Once again Jesus said The Father and I are One-- you can do the same is what he said in essence.

The enlightened of the world say--- you and God are One in your very essence and can know that.
That is your true natural condition when all the ignorance has gone.
It takes the Grace of God for that to happen.
Where is the difference then between the root of the teaching of Jesus and what is taught by those enlightened.
Love is the essence.

So many sages over thousands of years are reporting the same as Jesus said "The Father and I are One"

I dont mind being wrong.
I just want to realise the Truth for myself.

I dont see much love, outside their own following, inherent in the various fundamentalist groups/religions.
Bible study groups fall out with each other over the small print.
Perhaps they do not see the wood for the trees.
Look to the essence of the word of Jesus I doubt if that is the same as the essence of the Old Testament.
I believe Jesus came to correct misunderstandings of the true nature of God which is Love

Chris

[truthseekerdan]

Each One Of Us is The Great I AM. Either you are aware of IT or not...

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr82/marianinia2008/spiritual/be_still.jpg

Psalm 46:10

[Unified Serenity]

I dunno, all this spirit talk. I hope we keep tata's in the next age.

[RedeZra]

The enlightened of the world say--- you and God are One in your very essence and can know that.



the enlightened imply that Christ did not have to come and die on the Cross

as we can do it on our own


that we can somehow become God because we already are God

so we don't need Jesus


is this true or is it a seductive snare ?


satan is so very cunning

[greybeard]

Red look at the teaching
"Seek you first the Kingdom of God (and all things will be given to you
Heaven lies within"
It does not say get into the small print then seek.
It is saying look deeply within.
How many Christian group advocate meditation?
Most seem to point to God out there as in not really part of you.

The world needed Jesus because the majority had failed to listen to enlightened teachers.
The ones who were no longer ignorant were already in the Presence of God--- united with.

If you want you can totally ignore all that happened before Jesus and put your trust totally in Him and that is a safe place to be.
Anyone putting their faith in any religious organisation particularly a fundamentalist one can test the love of the group by leaving and going ones own way. Then see what happens.
The fundamentalist say or at least imply--- everyone got it wrong but us --- we are the elite, we are the elect, the chosen ones, the ones going to heaven.

The truly enlightened do not mind if you come and listen to the teaching or go they have no agenda.
Some teach in silence.

Yes the Satan is very clever he likes to divide to make wrong to confuse.

As a child and at other times I had spiritual experiences being Loved before I even picked up a spiritual book.
The teachings just confirmed what I already knew.
I know God is Love.


With Love Chris

Ps you cant make enlightenment happen---- it is by the Grace of God

[RedeZra]

Red look at the teaching
"Seek you first the Kingdom of God (and all things will be given to you
Heaven lies within"


what do the Kingdom of God mean ?

it means God is King in Heaven


where is Heaven ?

somewhere


how can we see and enter the Kingdom of God ?

by being born again of water and the Holy spirit


but who will send us the Holy spirit ?

Jesus

[RedeZra]

If you want you can totally ignore all that happened before Jesus and put your trust totally in Him and that is a safe place to be.



who is this Jesus ?


in Hebrew He is Yahushua which means Yahweh is Salvation

so whether we like it or not

Jesus and the New Testament is intrinsically linked with Yahweh and the Old Testament


Jesus was born 2000 years ago and yet He existed before Abraham

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58


so Who is He ?

GOD


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He was in the beginning with God.

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. - John 1:1-3

[greybeard]

Red if you have become a Born again Christian that's fine.
Seems each Christian group claims only their baptism is valid.
No religion has a monopoly on God.
I was baptised Catholic.

The only suggestion is why not leave the rest of us to the Love of God?

He got me this far--- saved my life on four occasions so I have complete faith in that Love.

I was born alone and will die alone--- I belong to none other than God who looks after me with every breath I am given.

With Love Chris

[RedeZra]

The only suggestion is why not leave the rest of us to the Love of God?

He got me this far--- saved my life on four occasions so I have complete faith in that Love.

I was born alone and will die alone--- I belong to none other that God who looks after me with every breath I am given.

With Love Chris


God is good and long-suffering


but we got so many gods

and God do not like idols


God got a Name

[greybeard]

The only suggestion is why not leave the rest of us to the Love of God?

He got me this far--- saved my life on four occasions so I have complete faith in that Love.

I was born alone and will die alone--- I belong to none other that God who looks after me with every breath I am given.

With Love Chris


God is good and long-suffering


but we got so many gods

and God do not like idols


God got a Name

All true and do you know the biggest idol Red?
Its the focus on Dogma and our church has got it right out of all the 30 thousand Christian Organisations.
The one valid baptism.
The Church the idol and worshipped oh so subtly---- God sidelined.
If you disobey the the dogma you are outcast.

There is only one God there is only One.
He made heaven and earth.
Anyway we could go round and round for ever Red
I wish you well on your path.

With love Chris

[RedeZra]

There is only one God there is only One.
He made heaven and earth.



why is it extremely important to know who God is ?

because we will follow the teachings of whom we think is God


so when we pick a fake god then we will walk a fake way


God is not just nice to know but need to know

[kreagle]

The only suggestion is why not leave the rest of us to the Love of God?

He got me this far--- saved my life on four occasions so I have complete faith in that Love.

I was born alone and will die alone--- I belong to none other that God who looks after me with every breath I am given.

With Love Chris


God is good and long-suffering


but we got so many gods

and God do not like idols


God got a Name

All true and do you know the biggest idol Red?
Its the focus on Dogma and our church has got it right out of all the 30 thousand Christian Organisations.
The one valid baptism.The Church the idol and worshipped oh so subtly---- God sidelined.
If you disobey the the dogma you are outcast.

There is only one God there is only One.
He made heaven and earth.
Anyway we could go round and round for ever Red
I wish you well on your path.

With love Chris

greybeard,....."and",......RedeZra,

I'd like for "both" of you to give your "interpretation" of "one valid baptism"

Expound, if you will.

Love and Peace,........kreagle

[truthseekerdan]

so when we pick a fake god then we will walk a fake way


God is not just nice to know but need to know

The only "fake god" is one's false (illusionary) identity a.k.a. the ego mind.

Don't let it deceive you... ;)

[Unified Serenity]

The fact is what's in the heart is what matters, and what you believe the word teaches. If one becomes a believer and cannot get baptized before they die, then it is believed had they not died they would have been baptized and thus are seen as baptized by desire. Those who are not able to immerse as that is what a mikvah is which is what John the Baptist did was a mikvah which is full immersion. However, if you are near an area and all there is is a sink, grab some water and profess your faith in Yeshua the Messiah and be baptized in his name. There is not reason for separation. I see no reason for division. Why not enjoy a free flowing river with your spiritual leader dunking you and you getting the opportunity to confess your faith and praise the Lord? We have too little free praise of the Lord. Michal mocked David for his praising of God, and she was unapproved. We need a lot more joy and love freely expressed and too many are bottled up with fear of the spirit of man. There is nothing more beautiful than singing and dancing to the Lord with a pure heart with your brothers and sisters. It is pure and it's near child like. When did we learn to be so stolid?

I say, if it was good enough for Jesus / Yeshua and I follow in his steps then it is good enough for me. I have been blessed to baptize a handful of people. I hold that as one of the greatest honors I have ever had. There is no greater joy than being present at someone's day of declaration and freedom in the Lord!

[GCS1103]

The fact is what's in the heart is what matters, and what you believe the word teaches. If one becomes a believer and cannot get baptized before they die, then it is believed had they not died they would have been baptized and thus are seen as baptized by desire. Those who are not able to immerse as that is what a mikvah is which is what John the Baptist did was a mikvah which is full immersion. However, if you are near an area and all there is is a sink, grab some water and profess your faith in Yeshua the Messiah and be baptized in his name. There is not reason for separation. I see no reason for division. Why not enjoy a free flowing river with your spiritual leader dunking you and you getting the opportunity to confess your faith and praise the Lord? We have too little free praise of the Lord. Michal mocked David for his praising of God, and she was unapproved. We need a lot more joy and love freely expressed and too many are bottled up with fear of the spirit of man. There is nothing more beautiful than singing and dancing to the Lord with a pure heart with your brothers and sisters. It is pure and it's near child like. When did we learn to be so stolid?

I say, if it was good enough for Jesus / Yeshua and I follow in his steps then it is good enough for me. I have been blessed to baptize a handful of people. I hold that as one of the greatest honors I have ever had. There is no greater joy than being present at someone's day of declaration and freedom in the Lord!

Hey, U.S.-

It's a real pleasure having you add your voice here. I've long believed that "The Bible" thread posters are some of the wisest and most compassionate members on this forum. I love coming here to read some of the posts by Red, Beren, Kreagle, Greybeard, Modwiz and so on. Now you're here and you obviously bring a lot of knowledge to the subject. I truly believe that many of the answers as to what is going on today, in this dysfunctional world, are to be found in the analysis right here on this thread.

[greybeard]

Hi Kreagle
I think all Christian baptism is valid for Christians--- as said the problem is some churches denounce other churches baptism as invalid.
As Dan has said the ego is the cause of all the misery in this world.
This need to be right--- make other wrong be special is pure ego
see here.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.

chris

[greybeard]

To Be clear I love Jesus the only difference between my path and the teaching portrayed by the various Christian denominations is, I believe that Jesus pointed to enlightenment in a lifetime also to Heaven after death.

Heaven lies within to be found during or after earthly life.
Be still and know that I am God is for me is an indication to meditate and know/find God within.
There is nowhere God is not so it is possible to find God both within and out with the human body.
Inament and transcendent.
Namaste
Chris

[RedeZra]

imagine what God our Creator must think and feel

when He came to die on the Cross for a bloody good reason


while we go around after other gods or hoist ourselves up as one

and so shut our ears to His message


oh but we don't think Jesus is God


that is fine and what this thread is all about

to investigate the Divinity of Jesus Christ and check the believability of the Bible

[RedeZra]

this is an interesting talk from a former kundalini teacher

who got a good grip on both the doctrine of enlightenment and the dogma of salvation






Mike Shreve 60 min 8 parts


lzt9n13AfHs

[RedeZra]

I'd like for "both" of you to give your "interpretation" of "one valid baptism"



the point of baptism

is to receive the Holy spirit whom the Father will send in the Name of Jesus


"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26



"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

"teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, [even] to the end of the age." So be it - Matthew 28:19-20



the Holy spirit is crucial for our salvation

and we only receive Him in the Name of Jesus

[RedeZra]

I believe that Jesus pointed to enlightenment in a lifetime also to Heaven after death.




Salvation is simple and instant


today is the day to be born again

to receive the Holy spirit in Jesu Name


eternal life is easily achieved and yet... yet

[greybeard]

I think it important to look at the essence of Jesus teaching and the literal.
" Of myself I do nothing it is the Father within"
So God is within. (all)
"The Father and I are One."
"You can do all that I have done and more"

These teachings lead me to believe that we can do the same as Jesus-- He said so did He not?

So If Jesus can be One with God and He is, so can we.

Enlightenment is by the Grace of God--- you cant earn it you cant make it happen-- it is as yet a very rare event.

Chris

[RedeZra]

I think it important to look at the essence of Jesus teaching and the literal.
" Of myself I do nothing it is the Father within"
So God is within. (all)
"The Father and I are One."
"You can do all that I have done and more"

These teachings lead me to believe that we can do the same as Jesus-- He said so did He not?

So If Jesus can be One with God and He is, so can we.




yes we can

if we got the Holy spirit within us


but we are not born with the Holy spirit

we must be born again



Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

[RedeZra]

a short conversation between God and a dead guy


Hello did you receive My Son ?

no i didn't know i was supposed to


so what did you do with your life ?

well pretty much what i wanted


do you not know the ways of the world is not My way ?

i thought it was all about me


No it is all about My Son and His kingdom

[greybeard]

a short conversation between God and a dead guy


Hello did you receive My Son ?

no i didn't know i was supposed to


so what did you do with your life ?

well pretty much what i wanted


do you not know the ways of the world is not My way ?

i thought it was all about me


No it is all about My Son and His kingdom

"Its all about me is ego"
Im right your wrong is classic-- there has to be an enemy.
Thats why removal of ego is important.
The whole purpose of work on transcending ego is to let go of the me and my will.
Letting go of ego is all about Thy will be done not mine.

A lot of wars were fought in the name of God but they were really doing the bidding of the ego.
I know the will of God and if your religion/belief is different from mine then I kill you, that was their belief.
The Bible is open to misinterpretation.
Scholars who have spent their whole lives deeply studying the word cant agree.
Jesus was speaking to ordinary people with probably average intellect--- He kept it simple.
Love and forgiveness thats it.


The Moslem killed the Christian in the name of God--- the Christian did the same.
Christians killed each other in the name of God--- my view is the only right one, those are all ego positions.

Yet God gave the commandment Thou shalt not kill---- love they enemy.

Thats simple.

Religion makes an enemy out of other faiths and that includes other branches of the same faith.


Love Chris

[RedeZra]

"Its all about me is ego"


it's not about me and not about you

it is not about us

but all about Christ our Creator


we have no business but obeying Him who made us

else we will end up with the devil

who is the only warmonger

[gripreaper]

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7016/692899pa6.gif



http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg62/scaled.php?server=62&filename=disappointment.gif&res=landing

[greybeard]

Guess what Im saying is that the Christian faith does not have a monopoly in loving God and surrendering to His will.
Moslems are very much into the will of God but to name one other faith.
Jesus said "In my Fathers House are many Mansions" --- Could it be that there are different Mansions for different faiths?

Obviously you are guaranteed a place in Heaven because of Christian Baptism and the love of Jesus.
In that case it would appear that I qualify under those terms also.
It bothers me the insinuation that only Christians go to Heaven

If there is only one incarnation then there is only one chance to get it right.

So what about those who have no opportunity to know Jesus through no fault of their own?
I believe everyone who accepts God into their life is Heaven bound
Chris

[HORIZONS]

"Its all about me is ego"


it's not about me and not about you

it is not about us

but all about Christ our Creator


we have no business but obeying Him who made us

else we will end up with the devil

who is the only warmonger

Hey Red - you should study the - SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES - by J. P. Eby. I think it would be good for you.
Part 1 is http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm


GOD HAS A PLAN!

AMONG all the questions that men have asked, there is one that is of supreme interest and importance. Why are we here? What is our destiny? What lies beyond the grave for the Christian, for the unbeliever? For old, for young? For our fellow citizens, and for the teeming masses in far-away lands serving strange gods? These questions were raised by one of the great poets of all times. I am speaking now of that American genius of letters, Edgar Allen Poe - an incomparable genius, and yet a man whose life was destroyed by unbelief. Millions of people have read his masterpiece, "The Raven," but few, I am afraid, have ever grasped the real spiritual significance of the struggle that was going on in the soul of this man. He asked four very significant questions - questions which every living soul, at one,' time or another, must raise to God. First, Is there a God who comforts? Is there a God who can assuage the pain of life? (In this case it is the poignant pain of the loss of a loved one, his beloved Lenore.) Is there "some water from the river of paradise, the water of Nephenthe," which can take away the heartache that is driving him insane? Secondly, he asks, Is there really a Christ? Does He live? Is there a balm in Gilead? Is there One who can smoothie the wrinkled brow and soften the hard heart? Thirdly, he asks, Is there some place, some heaven, some distant Eden or future world where we shall be joined again with our loved ones? And, finally, Is there any hope that the darkness and hopelessness and despair of this life will be lifted? But always he directs his questions to his own unbelief which is personified in that grim and ghastly raven, a picture of doubt and unbelief. A few years after writing those chilling words, Poe became insane. Regaining his sanity, he drank himself to death, and this genius was found dead in the gutter.
Untold billions of human beings have lived and died without hearing the gospel of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. What has become of them? Is there no hope? For more than six thousand years generations of men, like the grass, have appeared and in a few fleeting years withered and vanished. Whence came those countless billions of human beings, and where do they go? This is the problem which has preoccupied the world's thought since the dawn of history. This is the question about which philosophers have theorized and theologians have dogmatized. Unquestionably the problem of the eternal destiny of mankind is the question of questions! It concerns every individual and touches everything of enduring interest. Life is a vapor that appears for a while and vanishes away. But there is a beyond! What is that beyond to be?
God has a plan I Indeed, God has a wonderful plan for this world! It is a plan of which the architectural drawings were made in eternity. It encompasses the minutest detail of all of creation. I assure you that when time has run its course, and the veil is dropped upon the final scene, we shall discover that that plan has been worked out to its very tiniest detail, just as God had planned it in eternity - that His will has been done!

That is an amazing thought because it often seems as if the world is flying off unattended, like a chariot where the driver has fallen off, the horses are running wild, the reins are flapping in the breeze, and it is threatening to go over the precipice at any moment. Yet the Scriptures would have us know that God, the sovereign Lord of history, has His hands firmly upon those reins and that His plan is coming to pass. Think about it! Our God is perfect in all His attributes. He is perfect in His power. He is perfect in His holiness and justice. He is perfect in His love and mercy. He is perfect in His wisdom and in His omniscience. Therefore, His plan must be perfect. Indeed it is a perfect plan!

This is not to deny that the world is filled with many evils; that all about us we see that sin and evil and disease and death cling to man. It is not to shut our eyes to those realities, but it is to open our eyes to the realization that God sovereignly overwhelms all these things to bring about His own will. God has created this world. Even though Satan let chaos loose into the midst of the creation, God created Satan and God knew precisely what this angel of destruction would contribute. He knew of the chaos and the sin that would be introduced into the peaceful calm of those Elysium fields. Yet God created him anyway. God knew that with sin would come the perfect judgment of God upon that sin, which means sickness, death, judgment, disillusionment and decay. Yet, God ordained all these things so that He might overcome them for good.

Central to the whole plan of God is Jesus Christ and His greater glory, but even more amazing is the realization that God has planned for us to share His glory and to work out for us our good as well. God has a perfect plan. My friends, I want you to understand one thing. This plan needs no human support! In Madrid, Spain, there exists the Escorial, one of the greatest cathedrals ever built by man. For centuries the kings of Spain have been buried there. When that magnificent structure was under construction, the architect designed a vast arch, perhaps bigger than anything that had been built before. However, that arch was so flat at the top that the reigning king was frightened by the prospect of the tremendous weight of the roof collapsing on his head. He commanded the architect to build a column from the floor all the way to the center of that arch to hold it up. The architect protested vehemently that it was not needed, but the king insisted and, over the laments of the architect, the column was built. The king worshipped contentedly in the vast structure, having seen to it himself that the ceiling would not fall. The years went by, the church stood, and the king finally died. Only then did the architect reveal that between the top of the column and the bottom of the arch there was a quarter of an inch of space. In all these hundreds of years that have passed the arch has not sunk so much as a quarter of an inch. Today a board is still passed over the column and under the arch for all to see. So it is with the plan of God - that over-arching plan that encompasses all of reality and all of life. It needs no human support to hold it up. God is the LORD OF ALL and He is working out His purposes in our lives, in all of the world, and through the whole universe.

Read the words of that magnificent hymn: "God moves in a mysterious way His wonders to perform; He plants the footsteps in the sea, And rides upon the storm." What a beautiful hymn! Many people may not know how William Cowper was brought to write that hymn. His life was in shambles. He was not a Christian. He was filled with despair and discouragement. In fact, so overcome with despair was he that he determined to take his life by taking poison. Instead of dying, he became deathly ill. He bought a gun and tried to shoot himself, but the gun would not go off. In great anger, he threw the gun away, got a rope and tried to hang himself. The rope broke. So then, in utter desperation, he hired a carriage in London and instructed the driver to take him to the Thames River. The driver could not find the Thames River! The fog had settled in so thickly on the town that even a London cabdriver got lost! After several hours he brought Cowper back to his apartment. He went up to his room, totally dismayed, and his eyes fell upon a Bible. He opened that Bible and began to read. He read of the love of a heavenly Father who loved even William Cowper. Astonished by the events that had just taken place, he read of the sovereign providence of God working all things after the counsel of His own will. He embraced Him as his Saviour and wrote the wonderful words of that great hymn.

Perhaps I ought to state here for the benefit of some of my readers, that the idea that God HAS a plan may be to them a new one. According to the view of most Christians, God has no definite, prearranged plan, but is simply endeavoring to do the best He can through human instrumentality to repair the ruin that sin has made, and, though thus far the majority of the race have been overwhelmed in that ruin, yet in the end truth will triumph and sin will be confined in an eternal prison house.

As some ignorantly misjudge the skill and wisdom of a great architect and builder by his unfinished work, so also many in their ignorance now misjudge God by His unfinished work; but by and by, when the rough scaffolding of sin, death, and redemption has been removed, and the rubbish cleared away, God's FINISHED WORK will universally declare His infinite wisdom and power; and His plans will be seen to be in harmony with His glorious character.

Since God tells us that He has a definitely fixed purpose, and that all His purposes shall be accomplished, it behooves us, as His children, to inquire diligently what those plans are, that we may be found in harmony with them. Notice how emphatically the Lord affirms the fixedness of His purpose: "The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand." "The Lord of hosts has purposed, and who shall disannul it?" "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me... My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure ... Yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it" (Isa. 14:24-27; 46:9-11). Therefore, however haphazard or mysterious God's dealings with men may appear, those who believe this testimony of His Word must acknowledge that His original and unalterable plan has been, and still is, progressing systematically to completion.

When we think of a plan, we think of something involving more than just a single element. An architect's plan for a building consists of drawings and specifications descriptive of its several floors, including styles of plumbing, decoration, arrangement of rooms, etc. Unless each floor of the building is to be identical to every other floor, necessarily the drawings and specifications for any given floor do not harmonize with the details of the other floors. No one, however, would construe this to mean that the architect is incompetent, nor that his plans and specifications are contradictory. God's plan, like the plan of a building, is also made up of many parts. Instead of different floors, however, it embraces EPOCHS AND AGES. Through each of these ages the divine plan has steadily progressed toward completion. Only when it is complete, and mankind sees the result, will they all be able to appreciate the wisdom, justice, love and power of the Divine Architect. -Ps. 72:1-20

[and continues from there]

[HORIZONS]

Part 2 begins thusly ~
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW2.htm


THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY

Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
How Men Are Saved
The Law of Circularity

WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER?

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator and Sustainer of ALL things and ALL people. He either does or allows everything that is done in heaven or on earth. If one hundred billion helpless human beings are being tortured, then Jesus is doing it. Satan has brought suffering and death to the whole human race. However, if eternal torment IS TRUE, then Jesus Christ will torture forever the whole human race, except the small handful who will be saved. In one hour, in a hot searing hell, our Lord will inflict more pain and agony on each person than Satan inflicted on that person during his entire life.

If this torture lasts throughout eternity, then each unsaved person will suffer more than all the suffering of all the people that ever lived on earth. Think of it! Billions have suffered horrible pain for hours, days, weeks, months, and years, during the time they were alive. And yet, after they die, EVERY unsaved person will suffer more agony than all the suffering of the whole race PUT TOGETHER from Adam until now. This is so horrible, so frightful, that it is difficult for our minds to grasp. Except Satan himself, Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler were among the most horrible killers of men this world has ever known. Yet, the doctrine of eternal torture makes Jesus a million times more vicious and vindictive than these three put together. You see, these brutal murderers killed their victims. Death brought sweet relief in a moment of time. However, that Man of Galilee, that Man whom we love, praise, and worship, that Man who taught that we should forgive four hundred and ninety times a day, that Man who told us that we should love our enemies and bless them that curse us, that Man who died for all men, will never, never forgive ANYONE who has rejected Him in this frail life, or, worse yet, who merely failed to believe on Him during this brief time. Instead of torturing them for a season and then ending their suffering with death, He will torture them through all eternity.

Even the hardest, cruelest, most brutal men cannot torture their fellow men for more than two or three hours without growing weak, faint, and sick (see Fox Book of Martyrs). However, Christian leaders teach that our Lord will torture His victims through endless ages. The Scripture reveals that Christ Jesus is the kindest, the most tender-hearted and merciful Person this world has ever known. His mercy endures forever, or to all generations of time. The doctrine of eternal torment pictures Him to be the most horrible monster, the most beastly, brutal, cruel, vicious Person this world has ever known. The governments of this world, ruled by unregenerated men, put their rebels in prisons, and the very worst offenders they put to death. But our Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator and Redeemer of the world, will mercilessly torture those who offend Him to the most hideous and incomprehensible degree. Surely, this pagan and Romish doctrine of eternal torture does NOT glorify HIM!

One of the theologians of the Church of England (Jeremy Taylor) speaks of the fate of the wicked in the following terms: "In hell every sense and organ shall be assailed forever with its own appropriate and most exquisite sufferings. We are amazed at the inhumanity of Phalaris who roasted men in his brazen bull, but THAT WAS A JOY IN COMPARISON WITH HELL." And here is what the renowned evangelist, C. H. Spurgeon, said on the same subject: "There is real fire in hell. The body shall be suffused with agony; your head tormented with racking pains; your eyes starting from their sockets; your ears tortured with horrid sounds; your pulse rattling with anguish; your limbs crackling in the flame; every vein a pathway for the fire to tread; every nerve a string on which the devil shall forever play the diabolical tune of hell's unutterable lament."

If it were true, it is so awful that it should never be spoken without tears and a broken heart. How does the mother of a murderer speak of the corning execution of her boy? Yet the prospect to her is only one of time, and in the limits of the physical. If the people believe it, then their attitude about the whole thing reveals that they could care less if the creation burns forever. The fact is, NO ONE really believes in an eternal burning hell if we are to judge by their actions. If they saw a person in a burning building, they would put forth every effort to save them; they would cry and scream for help; they would be late for work; they would not rest until the victims were rescued. Yet, those who teach eternal torment can spend their hours relaxing in front of the television screen, visiting and feasting upon rich dainties with their friends, and whole days in camping, vacationing, fishing, and playing, and then lay their heads upon a pillow every night and sleep soundly, while, according to their own teaching, countless millions are going to a place a million times worse than a burning building!

If they believed what they teach, they would never cease, day and night until they dropped, and others came to take their places, in their efforts to save men from such a place! They excuse themselves by saying, "All we can do is warn." But if they were standing before a burning building would they preach a thirty-minute sermon, then turn and walk away, saying, "All we can do is warn!" And how many do they meet day after day, and never mention their danger? Ah, precious friend of mine, if my concept of hell were what modern Christendom's is, then it is my conviction that I would not be able to wait for God to send me to preach the Gospel! I would have to spend my every wakened hour pleading, working, struggling, fighting to save men from such a fate. I would be compelled to spend hours upon hours in the chronic wards of hospitals, in rest homes, with the elderly and those working on dangerous jobs, begging men to repent and turn to Jesus before they die. And I am convinced that anyone with the love of God in his heart would do the same IF HE REALLY BELIEVED the fables that are being taught today about hell. I will say this, either those who teach eternal torture are EXTREMELY CALLOUSED or they do not believe what they teach!

George Hawtin has so aptly written: "Is it any wonder that in the face of such sadistic humbug there has been a wholesale manufacture of infidels? All these statements (by eternal hell-fire preachers) may be a show of oratorical eloquence, but they are nothing more. They hold no part of truth. They deny every attribute of God. They make wisdom foolishness, turn eternal love into exasperated hate, make omnipotence helplessness, and make the justice of God the grossest injustice in the universe. To say that I believe in such repugnance would be a lie of the first order. I do not believe it because it is contrary to the nature of God. It is contrary to the love of God. It is contrary to the justice of God. It is contrary to the power of God. It is contrary to the Word of God and it puts God in the ridiculous position of being the almighty King of kings and Lord of lords yet having dominion a vast pocket of hate and resistance that even He cannot overcome. Further than this it makes the mighty sacrifice of Christ that was made for all the world to be almost impotent in its power and scope. Worst of all, it frustrates the purpose of God laid down in the beginning when He said, 'Let us make man in our image and after our likeness.' Some will immediately ask me whether I do not believe in hell. My answer is very definite on this point. I most certainly DO BELIEVE in hell, but the hell of the Bible and the hell of human tradition are not the same thing at all. The hell of tradition is hopeless and eternal, while the hell of the Scripture like every judgment of God is corrective, remedial, and restorative." -end quote.

I do not like to differ, even in minor things, from those whom I esteem for their devotion to Christ and their valuable service in the cause of His Kingdom. But in the immortal words of the great Martin Luther, "Here I stand - I can do no other. So help me God!" Long centuries ago the faithful apostle Peter penned these inspired words, "Who by the power of God are kept through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (I Pet. 1:5). My conviction before God is that the extent of the salvation of Jesus, the Christ, our Lord, is to be known only in the last time. Jesus Himself said to His disciples, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now." But He said when the Holy Spirit should come, He would lead his people step by step - patiently lead them into the way of All Truth; so that when the last time (end of the age) came, the full revelation of that salvation would be made. I believe that I am writing in the last time. Writings of this kind do not endear the hearts of many people. I fear that enemies are made instead. Every time a truth is spoken, many become offended and many are filled with wrath. People always astonish me. It is never possible to know what attitude they will take under any given circumstance. They will believe and trust you and feed from your table, and for many years, only to become suddenly offended because of some point upon which they disagree, and often become hostile and sometimes even vicious, calling you a heretic and a false prophet, cutting you off from an fellowship and spiritual communication, and warning other saints near and far not to have anything to do with you.

I am also perfectly aware that these profound truths will be misapplied by another class, and some will twist and wrest them to their own destruction in their carnal and wicked endeavor to set aside all repentance of sin and annul all holiness of life, as some men in their zeal to display the grace of God have done, ridiculously living in sin and turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 4). These beautiful truths are not now written to men of corrupt minds who have no desire to walk in the Spirit, but to all who walk in the whole counsel of God, serving God because they love and know Him and not in fear of some dreadful judgment that hangs like a horrible terror before their eyes. I do not address those who would pervert the right ways of the Lord, using God's gracious plan and His great mercy as an excuse for careless living or unconcern for lost men, but to those children of the Most High God who, seeing their infinite identity in Christ, are consumed with the holy passion of becoming the very instrument of God to fight the good fight of faith, destroying sin and death and hell, and bringing all men back into the loving embrace of their God and Redeemer. So be it!

I recognize that there will be some still unanswered questions in some minds, but there is neither time to write nor finances to print a treatise dealing with every small point. How can we put the ocean of eternal truth into the limited pages of one small book? If God will have all men to be saved, and the Scripture is very clear on this point, then there must be a way by which this truth falls into perfect harmony with every other Scripture which seems to teach otherwise. We do ourselves much injury when we seize upon every Scripture which proclaims the salvation of all men, but carefully avoid all Scripture which speaks of the fearful judgment of the wicked. Yet even greater harm is done when people insist upon taking the other point of view, as almost the entire Church system has done for centuries, emphasizing only those Scriptures which seem to teach the unending doom of those unfortunate creatures who never once heard that God had a Son and skillfully avoiding every direct statement of Scripture which indicates that God has reconciled all things to Himself, and that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess to God of things in heaven and things in earth and under the earth. There is always a place of harmony if we look for it, and it is not usually difficult to find. Otherwise we will be forced onto that untenable ground of having to say that the Bible contradicts itself - which, of course, it never does. Whenever you find two Scriptures that seem to set forth conflicting views, there is always a simple explanation, and, if we will diligently inquire of the Lord, He will give us a definite answer. Human understanding is almost always prone to seize upon one side of a statement and will cling to that with the grip of death, refusing to even investigate or seek the wisdom of God to harmonize the truth. Worldly wise men are forever saying that the Bible contradicts itself.

I have never believed that by teaching the ultimate salvation of all men we were pitting one group of Scriptures against another, for it is my conviction that the solution can only be found in the correct HARMONIZATION of all the Scriptures, not ignoring one group while advancing the other. I believe I speak by the Spirit of God when I assert that the only sensible harmonization of all the Scriptures lies in the fact that Jesus is indeed THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, that He is in very fact THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD, and that HE WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come to the knowledge of the truth, DRAWING ALL MEN UNTO HIMSELF. To me this is a most glorious and wonderful fact! I find all the judgments of God to be correctional and disciplinary rather than vindictive and final. Therein lies the harmonization of which I speak. This leaves us free to believe ALL of God's Word. It magnifies the cross. It glorifies God. It honors the atonement. It gives meaning to the ministry of the Sons of God. It gives purpose to the ages yet to come, all planned and arranged beforehand by our wonderful Creator. Sin, judgment, and death are temporary, all to be dealt with by the mighty power of God invested in His saints. The entire universe will be reconciled to God through the blood of Christ's cross. God will become All-in-All. Here is a God worthy of your worship and adoration!

Several brethren have written or discussed this subject with me through the years, adamant against the truth I see. But their arguments are shallow and twisted and their spirits generally harsh against men whom God loves and for whom the Christ died, as though they wanted to make CERTAIN that everybody gets every thing they "deserve." Their theology is lopsided, distorted, out of balance, and it will be smashed in the end! Those who walk in that attitude know but little of the love of Him who is at the same time the JUDGE OF ALL and the SAVIOUR OF ALL. He is not the Judge of some and the Saviour of some, but both Judge and Saviour of ALL! If "Judge of ALL" means that He judges all, then "Saviour of ALL" must mean that He saves all, for the Scriptures plainly make both statements. Within that one fact again can be seen the HARMONIZATION of the justice and the love of God - His judgment leading to repentance and a knowledge of His mercy. Praise His wonderful name!

[and continues from there]

[HORIZONS]

Part 3 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW3.htm
Part 4 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW4.htm
Part 5 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW5.htm
Part 6 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW6.htm
Part 7 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm
Part 8 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW8.htm
Part 9 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW9.htm
Part 10 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW10.htm
Part 11 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW11.htm
Part 12 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW12.htm
Part 13 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW13.htm
Part 14 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW14.htm
Part 15 http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW15.htm

God is LOVE not hate

[RedeZra]

Guess what Im saying is that the Christian faith does not have a monopoly in loving God and surrendering to His will.

It bothers me the insinuation that only Christians go to Heaven



Christians do not go to Heaven nor Muslims or Hindus not even Buddhists

religion is not the ticket


it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of God if not for God letting us in

so we are back at Who is God ?


and what the requirements are for acceptance and admittance into Heaven

[RedeZra]

God is LOVE not hate


i agree

and if we do the work of the devil

we will reap his reward

[HORIZONS]

The works of the devil were destroyed in the resurrection. Unbelief is the only thing holding people back from God, and that will be removed too.

[RedeZra]

The works of the devil were destroyed in the resurrection. Unbelief is the only thing holding people back from God, and that will be removed too.

well what is the works of the devil

is it not his religious lies or doctrines ?

[Unified Serenity]

There is an idiom in the bible about suffering eternally, and it is not burning in hell. The imagery is in:

Psa 37:1 A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
Psa 37:3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
Psa 37:4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
Psa 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
Psa 37:6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.
Psa 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
Psa 37:8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psa 37:12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
Psa 37:13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
Psa 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psa 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psa 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psa 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psa 37:21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.
Psa 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Psa 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
Psa 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
Psa 37:26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.
Psa 37:27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psa 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
Psa 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
Psa 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
Psa 37:32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
Psa 37:33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.
Psa 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
Psa 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
Psa 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
Psa 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
Psa 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psa 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
Psa 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

This particular line is the image of it being an eternal judgment, but it does not mean eternal suffering:

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Picture the fat dropping and hitting a hot coal. It turns to smoke immediately and the smoke rises forever. It's a complete action. They are destroyed and never to return. Just as Satan has already been judged and is the only one judged presently completely to turn to ashes from within:

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

We see two things here. He is judged and HE will be the one on earth and all shall see him, and in the millenium they will be astonished as they look into the pit and wonder that he caused so much trouble:

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Then at the end of the millenium he will be loosed for a season again, and man will decide whom they shall love and follow, and then there will be the great judgment. The one factor that is different in the millenium (Day of the Lord) is that all men will know the truth and no one will need to be taught the truth. It will be completely about obedience.

Revelation tells us about that event:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Wow, that seems to say there is torment forever and ever, but how could we enjoy heaven hearing the screams and agony of our loved ones and the fallen angels forever? Fear not, it's again the idomatic thought. Let's continue:

We know our God is a consuming fire.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

We come to understand that all things will be made new, and the old is done and finished:

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

When Hell and death are put in the lake of fire, who do you think that lake of fire is? The purpose of this age will have been completed. This age is for us to learn and mature spiritually so we will not be as spiritual babies, but mature souls. All those who have chosen to walk in love having experienced the myriad of things that temper the soul which we thus learn mercy, love, patience, kindness to be in a true relationship with the creator have no more use of this 3d experience. There is no everlasting torment. The lake of fire consumes all, and as God is a consuming fire and all things come from God, he can easily reabsorb all that was, and we won't even have a remembrance of those lost.

Life after the Millenium:

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

[HORIZONS]

Compelling scriptures US, but it could be said that it is everything of Adam - the natural self - is what is destroyed, so that everything of the Christ - the spiritual Self - will be made complete. The two seeds, wheat and tares, planted in the field - hello field, you are God's garden - grow until the end of the age, then the harvest takes place. That which is of God - Christ - is brought into the Kingdom and that which is of the Adversary is destroyed. But all this takes place within us - in our own consciousness - in this realm of duality.

Here are a few scriptures to consider as well:


112 REASONS TO BELIEVE IN GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY AND THE SALVATION OF ALL
(Scriptures compiled by Elwin R. Roach)

(Old Testament listings)

1) Is 46:10.............God will do ALL His pleasure
2) Dan 4:35...........God's will done in heaven & earth, none can stop Him
3) Prov 16:9...........Man devises, but God directs his steps
4) Prov 19:21.........Man devises, but God's counsel stands
5) Prov 16:33.........THE WHOLE DISPOSING thereof is of the Lord
6) Ps 37:23............The steps of man are ordered of God
7) Psa 33:10.....The LORD brings the counsel & devices of the heathen & the people to nought
8) Ps 33:15...........God fashions ALL hearts
9) Job 5:1718.......God wounds then He makes whole
10) Hos 6:12........God tears, but in the third day He heals
11) Deut 32:39......God kills & makes alive, He wounds but then heals
12) Ps 90:3............God turns man to destruction, then says return
13) Jer 18:26........God mars vessels & then remakes them
14) Lam 3:3132…..God will not cast off forever
15) Ps 102:1820….God will loosen those appointed to death
16) Is 2:2...............ALL nations will flow to the Lord's house
17) Joel 3:21.........God will cleanse blood not cleansed
18) Gen 18:18.......ALL families of the earth will be blessed
19) Is 45:22..........ALL the earth commanded to look and be saved
20) Is 45:23..........Unto God ALL will bow & every tongue swear
21) Is 40:35.........Highway of God enables ALL flesh to see His glory
22) Ps 138:4.........ALL kings will praise God
23) Ps 72:17.........ALL nations will call Him blessed
24) Ps 86:9...........ALL nations will worship God & ALL men blessed
25) Is 52:10..........ALL earth will see the salvation of God
26) Ps 65:24........ALL flesh will come to God
27) Is 11:9.............The earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
28) Ps 66:34.........Enemies will submit & ALL earth will worship
29) Is 19:1425......Egypt & Assyria will be restored
30) Ezek 16:55.......Sodom will be restored
31) Ps 68:18...........God will lead (all) captivity captive to dwell in man
32) Is 54:5..............He will be called the God of THE WHOLE EARTH
33) Ps 22:2529......ALL will remember & turn unto the Lord
34) Ps 145:910......God is good to ALL & merciful to His works
35) Ps 145:14.........Raises ALL that fall & ALL that be bowed down
36) Ps 145:15.........Eyes of ALL wait upon God & He will and gives them meat in due season
37) Ps 145:16.........Will satisfy desire of ALL living
38) Ps 145:9...........The Lord is good to ALL
39) Ps 145:10.....ALL Thy works shall praise thee
40) Ps 24:1...The Earth is the Lord's and the FULNESS thereof, and they who dwell therein
41) Is 25:6..............The Lord will make unto ALL people a feast
42) Is 25:7..............He will destroy the veil that's cast over ALL
43) Is 25:8..............He will swallow up death (ALL death) in victory
44) Is 25:8..............He will wipe away tears from ALL faces
45) Jer 32:35 ....It never entered His mind to pass sons & daughters through the fire of Molech
46) Ps 135:6..The Lord did what pleased Him in heaven, earth, & the sea
47) Is 26:9...When God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants will learn righteousness
48) Is 53:1......He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied.
49) Gen 12:3..........All families of the earth shall be blessed.


112 REASONS TO BELIEVE IN GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY AND THE SALVATION OF ALL
(New Testament listings)

1) Eph 1:11..........God works ALL things after counsel of His will
2) Jn 8:29.............Jesus ALWAYS does which pleases His Father
3) I Tim 2:4.........God will have ALL to be saved
4) I Jn 4:14..........Jesus sent to be the Saviour of the world
5) Jn 4:34............Jesus to do the will of God who sent Him
6) Jn 12:47..........Jesus came to save ALL
7) I Tim 2:6.........Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL
8) Jn 5:36 ...........He will finish the works He was sent to do
9) Jn 4:42............Jesus is the Saviour of the world
10) Jn 12:32.........Jesus will draw ALL to Himself
11) Heb 7:25........Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
12) Col 1:15.........Jesus the first born of ALL creation
13) Col 1:16.........By Him ALL things were created
14) Rm 5:1521....In Adam ALL condemned, in Christ ALL live
15) I Cor 15:22....In Adam ALL die, in Christ ALL live
16) Eph 1:10........ALL come into Him at the fulness of times
17) I Cor 15:26....Death, the last enemy, will be destroyed
18) Phil 2:911.....EVERY TONGUE shall confess Jesus is Lord
19) I Cor 12:3......Cannot confess except by THE HOLY SPIRIT
20) Rm 11:26.......ALL Israel will be saved
21) Act 3:2021....Restitution (Reconstitution) of ALL
22) Lk 2:10...........Jesus will be the joy to ALL people
23) Eph 2:7...........His grace to be shown in the ages to come
24) Heb 8:1112...ALL will know God
25) Lk 3:6.............ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God
26) Titus 2:11.......Grace has appeared to ALL
27) Rm 8:1921....Creation freed from corruption
28) Col 1:20..........ALL reconciled unto God
29) I Cor 4:5..........ALL will have praise of God
30) James 5:11..........End of the Lord is full of mercy
31) Rev 15:4..........ALL Nations worship when judgments seen
32) II Cor 5:17.......ALL becomes a new creation in Christ (Eph 1:10)
33) Rm 11:32.........ALL subjected to unbelief, mercy on ALL
34) Rm 11:36.........ALL out of God, thru Him, and into Him
35) Eph 4:10...........Jesus will fill ALL things
36) Rev 5:13...........ALL creation seen praising God
37) I Cor 15:28.......God will be ALL in ALL
38) Rev 21:45........No more tears, ALL things made new
39) Jn 5:25..............ALL dead who hear will live
40) Jn 5:28..............ALL in the grave will hear & come forth
41) Jn 6:39.............And this is the Father's will that...I should lose nothing
43) I Cor 3:15.........ALL saved, yet so as by fire
44) Mk 9:49...........Everyone shall be salted with fire
45) II Cor 5:15........Jesus died for ALL
46) I Jn 2:2..............Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world
47) Rm 11:15..........Reconciliation of the world
48) Heb 2:2.............He is the heir of ALL things
49) Jn 3:35..............ALL has been given into His hand
50) Jn 17:2..............Jesus will give eternal life to ALL that His Father gives Him
51) Jn 6:4445.........ALL to be taught of God and will come
52) I Tim 4:911......Jesus is the Saviour of ALL
53) Acts 13:47.........Salvation unto the ends of the earth
54) Gal 3:8 ...............All nations shall be blessed.
55) Mt 18:11 ............. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost 
56) Mt 18:14 ............. Not the will of your Father...that one of these...should perish (rf. 1)
57) Jn 1:29 ............... Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of THE WORLD
58) Jn 1:7 .................. That ALL through him *might believe (The word ίσως  for *might is omitted in the Greek text.)
59) Jn 3:17 ................ That THE WORLD through him *might be saved. (The word ίσως  for *might is omitted in the Greek text.)
60) Jn 6:51................. The bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of THE WORLD
61) Col 1:28 .............. That we may present EVERY MAN perfect in Christ Jesus 
62) 2 Ptr 3:9 ............. The Lord is...not willing that ANY should perish (rf. 1 & 2)
63) 1 Jn 2:2............... And he is the propitiation...for the WHOLE WORLD

Note: None of the scriptures will mean a thing to those who are not willing to concede to the truth, regardless of what it is. Granted, some of these scriptures may seem not to be in total context of the subject matter, but looking at the whole picture they will in fact support the thought very well. In order to get a complete and balanced view of GOD’S SALVATION OF ALL, we suggest searching out all the scriptures (preferably in the Hebrew & Greek) concerning the wicked being eternally judged, condemned, destroyed, etc. No doubt, there will seem to be conflicting verses, and it may involve many soul searching hours, but continue on with a genuine desire to know the truth, and with dedication and prayer until the Spirit of Christ settles it firmly in your spirit with immutable clarity.
We rejoice In the light of the above scriptures, however, never forsake the truth of God’s judgments upon man’s rebellion, for men must stand accountable for their thoughts, words, and deeds. But it is clear that God’s judgments and man’s torment are not forever. There is an end to both, else His pleasures would be frustrated and never be seen throughout all eternity. Let every soul know that God has always had a wonderful plan for all. Moreover, no one and no thing can hinder it, and He will fulfill it according to His good pleasure.
Now, the test for those who do not embrace the truth of this matter, and they say if it is in the Bible—they will believe and teach it. The above are 112 verses are in the Bible. So what about it? Do they believe it? If so—will they teach it, and with joy share it to any and all? To bring this forth will cost something; but that is often the price for truth. The Valley of Decision is a hard place; but hopefully they don’t abide there long, break the ties of tradition lest they reason their way back to the well-beaten path of viewing God in man’s image of being eternally feeble and uncaring after people have died.

[Unified Serenity]

That fact is there are 3 ages spoken of in the bible. The age that was (before the fall of Lucifer), the age that is (current age), and the age that is to come (post Millenium). There is a reason for all 3, and had the fall not happened then we would not be here to learn truth and love so we would be fit partners in the next age.

[RedeZra]

In order to get a complete and balanced view of GOD’S SALVATION OF ALL, we suggest searching out all the scriptures (preferably in the Hebrew & Greek) concerning the wicked being eternally judged, condemned, destroyed, etc.


there is Salvation of all

if all give God a chance


God has done His part

and now it is up to us


Salvation is simple

eternal life easy


nobody needs to go to hell

still hell enlarges herself


nations are marching to the pit

[RedeZra]

Christ our Creator on the Cross

Spirit Salvation Victory


http://adbaptistchurch.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/jesus_christ_cross_black_background2.jpg

[RedeZra]

the Living Word and His written words

are competing with a thousand theories


so we really need to keep a cool head here

or it will be hot later

[Beren]

What is Bible ?

It is but a dead word on paper, when people care about whatever they care.
It's worthless if people do not pay attention to it.

Ah people... ever willing to twist and play with whatever they touch.
So when they touch Bible they twist it and claim it means certain things.
But then you get another group of people who claims another... and then we have quarreling groups while life...passes by.

This still shows that collectively we are not grown into Christ.
Alas for written words in any deed and in here spoken Bible when no one pays attention .

It takes courage and fearless attitude to live like Christ did.
He didn't needed to read Bible daily or to be present to festivals and such.
He chose when and where he would read or be present.

Why, well simply he owned Bible , he owned knowledge thus wasn't in need for any written law.
He knew God personaly.

How many of us does today?
This is the strive we aught to do, to know God with all our hearts,souls ,strengths,minds.

Knowing God in every level.

This is Christ's message.
Know God and love God thus you will love yourself.

[RedeZra]

the Word of God wrote the words

written in the Bible


but it was not the Bible that was crucified on the Cross

and so the Book will not save us


the devil is an expert scholar of Scripture

but he doesn't have the Holy spirit


and so he can't unravel the deep levels of the bible

but more than that he can't be saved


no Holy spirit no salvation

[RedeZra]

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, [that is], the Son of Man who is in heaven.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. - John 3:13-19



God told Moses to make a snake of brass which would supernaturally heal the Israelites bitten by snakes in the wilderness walk

just by looking at it


the same supernatural power of God heals us from the sting of sin

just by coming to the Cross

[kreagle]

I'd like for "both" of you to give your "interpretation" of "one valid baptism"



the point of baptism

is to receive the Holy spirit whom the Father will send in the Name of Jesus


"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26



"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

"teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, [even] to the end of the age." So be it - Matthew 28:19-20



the Holy spirit is crucial for our salvation

and we only receive Him in the Name of Jesus


RedeZra,....."and"......greybeard,

Thank you,....."both of you",......for your response to my post on "one valid baptism"

I had previously "promised",....back in post #1169 of this thread,.....to get back with everyone here with my personal "Revelation".

"Here" is where I will "prayerfully,....and carefully" endeavor to do just that.

In "connection" with that "Revelation" I quoted the following Scripture.......

Ephesians 4:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

God,....through His Word,....has "thoroughly convinced" me that He is "no respecter of persons"(Acts 10:34), in that He,...."loves",....."treats",......and "deals",....with "each of us" in the exact same manner,.....without favoritism. "This basic concept" of "equal consideration" was in full display in the response I gave to GCS1103, back in post #1326 of this same thread. There I describe "three different types of individuals",.......1) those with "zero understanding" of God's Word,......2) those with a "marginal understanding" of God's Word,.......and....3) those with a "substantial understanding" of God's Word. The "steps" each of these "three individuals" took, in order to achieve completion of the "Gospel Message",.....were the "exact same" steps,......and "results".

I'd like to "address" one of those major steps, here.

One valid baptism

Let's "start" by looking at "The Great Commission" that our Lord, Jesus gave.....

Matthew 28:16-20
King James Version (KJV)

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Gospel of Mark speaks of this "same Great Commission" in Mark 16:14-18,......and the Gospel of Luke references it, also, in Luke 24:45-49. Matthews account and rendition of this event is more "commonly used" and quoted,.....particularly because of the "wording" that Jesus used in verse 19,....which will be addressed,....in "greater detail" shortly.

It should be noted, here, that no "actual baptism event" is recorded in "these" passages on "The Great Commission" that Jesus gave,......just the "actual planning" for this Holy ceremony being "commissioned" to His "eleven remaining disciples".

In "dealing with" and "instructing" His disciples,.....Jesus found that it "routinely required" for Him to "take His disciples to the side",.......and "expound" to them His teachings,.....Parables, etc. In His wisdom,.....Jesus wanted to "make sure" that they "understood perfectly" what His directions were in "all matters"! Jesus,.....consequently,......took "measures" to insure that His disciples were "fully instructed in His Word". The follow passages clearly show that He "left nothing to chance", in that, He made sure to it that when the World "heard from His disciples/Apostles",........they were, indeed,....."hearing from Him"!!!

Mark 4:34
King James Version (KJV)

34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Luke 24:45
King James Version (KJV)

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,



Now,.....let's see,.....how the disciples "used their understanding" that Jesus game them.


The disciples/Apostles in "action"....Implementing the Great Commission,....that our Lord, Jesus gave....

Again,.....let's look at Matthew 28:19........

Matthew 28:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:



Did the disciples/Apostles "obey" Jesus,....correctly,.....in the "Implementing of the Great Commission"?

Did the disciples/Apostles "recite the passage", by Jesus,....as they performed baptismal services, in the Book of Acts, which ushered in the "Church" age, as we know it?,.........OR........did the disciples/Apostles "fulfill the passage", by Jesus,....as they performed these "same" baptismal services?

"Again",..... recite the passage,....exactly as Jesus had spoken it,......OR.......fulfill the passage,.......as Jesus would have wanted them to do?

(notes of consideration)

1. Baptisms carried out by John the Baptist were "all" entirely prior to the Resurrection, and the ushering in of the "Church" age,....first defined and mentioned in Acts 2:47. As such,....no formula was uttered by John the Baptist in the performance of these baptisms,.....other than being "baptized unto repentance".

2. From this point on,....I will refer to the disciples/Apostles,.....as "Apostles",..only. The word "disciples" means followers of Jesus,.......whereas "they" became "Apostles",....meaning "doers" of the Works/Words of Jesus.

As Apostles, "doers", of Jesus' Works/Words,......let's see what they "actually DID"!


(Actual Baptisms performed by the Apostles)

1) Acts 2:37-38,....the "Day of Pentecost"....3,120 souls,...."Church began"!

Acts 2:37-38
King James Version (KJV)

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


2) Acts 8:14-17,....."Church" established in Samaria

Acts 8:14-17
King James Version (KJV)

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.


3) Acts 10:43-48,......."gentile believers"....Cornelius and household added to "Church"

Acts 10:43-48
King James Version (KJV)

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

(note.....while it may be pointed out, the KJV, .....does not specifically mention "a name", here,....."all" of these Bible versions,......The New International Version, Revised Version, Amplified Version, Living Bible, Greek Interlinear (the "original" text), Common English Version, Contemporary English Version, English Standard Version, GOD'S WORD Translation, Good News Translation, Holman Christian Standard Bible, J.B. Phillips New Testament, Lexham English Bible, The Message, Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament, New American Standard Bible, New Century Version, Worldwide English (New Testament), and Wycliffe Bible,.....DO ALL state,......"in the name of Jesus Christ"!,......It is equally noteworthy to recognize that the Complete Jewish Bible has it recorded, as follows........"48 And he ordered that they be immersed in the name of Yeshua the Messiah. That's "JESUS",.....to you and me!)


4) Acts 19:1-7,......The 12 disciples of John the Baptist re-baptized

Acts 19:1-7
King James Version (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.


We've just now observed "four actual baptismal accounts", in the Scriptures,....by the Apostles,....who "had their understanding opened, that they might understand the scriptures."

Now,.....let's look, again,....at "The Great Commission", given by Jesus, in Matthew Chapter 28.

Matthew 28:16-20
King James Version (KJV)

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


It should be especially noted,.....and recognized, here, .....that Jesus wanted "more" out of His Apostles than for them to "merely recite the words", that He spoke and directed to them in this passage! He wanted them to "specify the NAME",......His NAME,.....JESUS,......and "they DID just that",.....they baptized "exclusively" in the name of Jesus,.......EVERY SINGLE TIME !!!.


Look at verse 19, one more time,.......He said,...."in the name,......of the Father,....and.....of the Son,......and......of the Holy Ghost".

A "single" name was to used and "implemented" here,.......AND IT WAS,......by "those who understood Him",......they "exclusively" baptized in the name, (singular), of Jesus!,......."fulfilling what Jesus meant in the Great Commission",.....and not "just reciting His words".

The Apostles "fully understood",.....that the "name", (singular),.....of the Father,...Son,....and Holy Ghost,......was.......JESUS!


There is absolutely "no baptismal accounts",......ZERO,.......where the Apostles,.....or anyone else,......EVER baptized,.......using "or" reciting,......the phrase,......"in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" To do so would have meant to "exclude" the "actual NAME"!

(In conclusion)

Sadly, in the "face of Scriptural proof",.....there are many who say that it really doesn't matter,.......that "as long as your heart is right",.......any "baptismal formula" will suffice.

"If" that's correct,......why don't we see,....."EVER",..... the Apostles "ever using" an "alternative formula"?

Could it be that "they" understood there was only one way to "correctly" perform Baptisms?

Could it be that "they" understood that there would only be "ONE NAME" that could possibly be used in the act of "obtaining one's salvation"?


Could it be that "they" understood "that name" to be,.........JESUS???

Acts 4:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


I think "they" must have understood the scriptures,..........don't you?

I think that "they" fully understood,......that there was only "one valid baptism"

What do you think?


Love and Peace,.........kreagle

[RedeZra]

I think that "they" fully understood,......that there was only "one valid baptism"

What do you think?


Love and Peace,.........kreagle


tnx i think you got it right ; )


"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. - John 14:26


"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." - Act 4:12


And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. - Mat 28:18

[Unified Serenity]

I'd like for "both" of you to give your "interpretation" of "one valid baptism"



the point of baptism

is to receive the Holy spirit whom the Father will send in the Name of Jesus


"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26



"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

"teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, [even] to the end of the age." So be it - Matthew 28:19-20



the Holy spirit is crucial for our salvation

and we only receive Him in the Name of Jesus


RedeZra,....."and"......greybeard,

Thank you,....."both of you",......for your response to my post on "one valid baptism"

I had previously "promised",....back in post #1169 of this thread,.....to get back with everyone here with my personal "Revelation".

"Here" is where I will "prayerfully,....and carefully" endeavor to do just that.

In "connection" with that "Revelation" I quoted the following Scripture.......

Ephesians 4:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

God,....through His Word,....has "thoroughly convinced" me that He is "no respecter of persons"(Acts 10:34), in that He,...."loves",....."treats",......and "deals",....with "each of us" in the exact same manner,.....without favoritism. "This basic concept" of "equal consideration" was in full display in the response I gave to GCS1103, back in post #1326 of this same thread. There I describe "three different types of individuals",.......1) those with "zero understanding" of God's Word,......2) those with a "marginal understanding" of God's Word,.......and....3) those with a "substantial understanding" of God's Word. The "steps" each of these "three individuals" took, in order to achieve completion of the "Gospel Message",.....were the "exact same" steps,......and "results".

I'd like to "address" one of those major steps, here.

One valid baptism

Let's "start" by looking at "The Great Commission" that our Lord, Jesus gave.....

Matthew 28:16-20
King James Version (KJV)

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Gospel of Mark speaks of this "same Great Commission" in Mark 16:14-18,......and the Gospel of Luke references it, also, in Luke 24:45-49. Matthews account and rendition of this event is more "commonly used" and quoted,.....particularly because of the "wording" that Jesus used in verse 19,....which will be addressed,....in "greater detail" shortly.

It should be noted, here, that no "actual baptism event" is recorded in "these" passages on "The Great Commission" that Jesus gave,......just the "actual planning" for this Holy ceremony being "commissioned" to His "eleven remaining disciples".

In "dealing with" and "instructing" His disciples,.....Jesus found that it "routinely required" for Him to "take His disciples to the side",.......and "expound" to them His teachings,.....Parables, etc. In His wisdom,.....Jesus wanted to "make sure" that they "understood perfectly" what His directions were in "all matters"! Jesus,.....consequently,......took "measures" to insure that His disciples were "fully instructed in His Word". The follow passages clearly show that He "left nothing to chance", in that, He made sure to it that when the World "heard from His disciples/Apostles",........they were, indeed,....."hearing from Him"!!!

Mark 4:34
King James Version (KJV)

34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Luke 24:45
King James Version (KJV)

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,



Now,.....let's see,.....how the disciples "used their understanding" that Jesus game them.


The disciples/Apostles in "action"....Implementing the Great Commission,....that our Lord, Jesus gave....

Again,.....let's look at Matthew 28:19........

Matthew 28:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:



Did the disciples/Apostles "obey" Jesus,....correctly,.....in the "Implementing of the Great Commission"?

Did the disciples/Apostles "recite the passage", by Jesus,....as they performed baptismal services, in the Book of Acts, which ushered in the "Church" age, as we know it?,.........OR........did the disciples/Apostles "fulfill the passage", by Jesus,....as they performed these "same" baptismal services?

"Again",..... recite the passage,....exactly as Jesus had spoken it,......OR.......fulfill the passage,.......as Jesus would have wanted them to do?

(notes of consideration)

1. Baptisms carried out by John the Baptist were "all" entirely prior to the Resurrection, and the ushering in of the "Church" age,....first defined and mentioned in Acts 2:47. As such,....no formula was uttered by John the Baptist in the performance of these baptisms,.....other than being "baptized unto repentance".

2. From this point on,....I will refer to the disciples/Apostles,.....as "Apostles",..only. The word "disciples" means followers of Jesus,.......whereas "they" became "Apostles",....meaning "doers" of the Works/Words of Jesus.

As Apostles, "doers", of Jesus' Works/Words,......let's see what they "actually DID"!


(Actual Baptisms performed by the Apostles)

1) Acts 2:37-38,....the "Day of Pentecost"....3,120 souls,...."Church began"!

Acts 2:37-38
King James Version (KJV)

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


2) Acts 8:14-17,....."Church" established in Samaria

Acts 8:14-17
King James Version (KJV)

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.


3) Acts 10:43-48,......."gentile believers"....Cornelius and household added to "Church"

Acts 10:43-48
King James Version (KJV)

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

(note.....while it may be pointed out, the KJV, .....does not specifically mention "a name", here,....."all" of these Bible versions,......The New International Version, Revised Version, Amplified Version, Living Bible, Greek Interlinear (the "original" text), Common English Version, Contemporary English Version, English Standard Version, GOD'S WORD Translation, Good News Translation, Holman Christian Standard Bible, J.B. Phillips New Testament, Lexham English Bible, The Message, Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament, New American Standard Bible, New Century Version, Worldwide English (New Testament), and Wycliffe Bible,.....DO ALL state,......"in the name of Jesus Christ"!,......It is equally noteworthy to recognize that the Complete Jewish Bible has it recorded, as follows........"48 And he ordered that they be immersed in the name of Yeshua the Messiah. That's "JESUS",.....to you and me!)


4) Acts 19:1-7,......The 12 disciples of John the Baptist re-baptized

Acts 19:1-7
King James Version (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.


We've just now observed "four actual baptismal accounts", in the Scriptures,....by the Apostles,....who "had their understanding opened, that they might understand the scriptures."

Now,.....let's look, again,....at "The Great Commission", given by Jesus, in Matthew Chapter 28.

Matthew 28:16-20
King James Version (KJV)

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


It should be especially noted,.....and recognized, here, .....that Jesus wanted "more" out of His Apostles than for them to "merely recite the words", that He spoke and directed to them in this passage! He wanted them to "specify the NAME",......His NAME,.....JESUS,......and "they DID just that",.....they baptized "exclusively" in the name of Jesus,.......EVERY SINGLE TIME !!!.


Look at verse 19, one more time,.......He said,...."in the name,......of the Father,....and.....of the Son,......and......of the Holy Ghost".

A "single" name was to used and "implemented" here,.......AND IT WAS,......by "those who understood Him",......they "exclusively" baptized in the name, (singular), of Jesus!,......."fulfilling what Jesus meant in the Great Commission",.....and not "just reciting His words".

The Apostles "fully understood",.....that the "name", (singular),.....of the Father,...Son,....and Holy Ghost,......was.......JESUS!


There is absolutely "no baptismal accounts",......ZERO,.......where the Apostles,.....or anyone else,......EVER baptized,.......using "or" reciting,......the phrase,......"in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" To do so would have meant to "exclude" the "actual NAME"!

(In conclusion)

Sadly, in the "face of Scriptural proof",.....there are many who say that it really doesn't matter,.......that "as long as your heart is right",.......any "baptismal formula" will suffice.

"If" that's correct,......why don't we see,....."EVER",..... the Apostles "ever using" an "alternative formula"?

Could it be that "they" understood there was only one way to "correctly" perform Baptisms?

Could it be that "they" understood that there would only be "ONE NAME" that could possibly be used in the act of "obtaining one's salvation"?


Could it be that "they" understood "that name" to be,.........JESUS???

Acts 4:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


I think "they" must have understood the scriptures,..........don't you?

I think that "they" fully understood,......that there was only "one valid baptism"

What do you think?


Love and Peace,.........kreagle

Kreagle,

I respect your right to express yourself however you want to do so, but your wild color code writing is not pleasant for me to read and therefore I have stopped reading your responses. It's not that I do not want to read what you have to say, it's that it is very chaotic for me and disturbs my spirit. I guess it would be as if I were trying to listen to a musician and all they hit were discordant notes. I would never pull up a seat to hear them again.

[kreagle]

Unified Serenity,

Would you "care" for a "black and white" version? Would "that" cause you to read it,.....or are you just looking for an excuse?

Love and Peace,.........kreagle


For Unified Serenity,.......


RedeZra,....."and"......greybeard,

Thank you,....."both of you",......for your response to my post on "one valid baptism"

I had previously "promised",....back in post #1169 of this thread,.....to get back with everyone here with my personal "Revelation".

"Here" is where I will "prayerfully,....and carefully" endeavor to do just that.

In "connection" with that "Revelation" I quoted the following Scripture.......

Ephesians 4:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

God,....through His Word,....has "thoroughly convinced" me that He is "no respecter of persons"(Acts 10:34), in that He,...."loves",....."treats",......and "deals",....with "each of us" in the exact same manner,.....without favoritism. "This basic concept" of "equal consideration" was in full display in the response I gave to GCS1103, back in post #1326 of this same thread. There I describe "three different types of individuals",.......1) those with "zero understanding" of God's Word,......2) those with a "marginal understanding" of God's Word,.......and....3) those with a "substantial understanding" of God's Word. The "steps" each of these "three individuals" took, in order to achieve completion of the "Gospel Message",.....were the "exact same" steps,......and "results".

I'd like to "address" one of those major steps, here.

One valid baptism

Let's "start" by looking at "The Great Commission" that our Lord, Jesus gave.....

Matthew 28:16-20
King James Version (KJV)

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Gospel of Mark speaks of this "same Great Commission" in Mark 16:14-18,......and the Gospel of Luke references it, also, in Luke 24:45-49. Matthews account and rendition of this event is more "commonly used" and quoted,.....particularly because of the "wording" that Jesus used in verse 19,....which will be addressed,....in "greater detail" shortly.

It should be noted, here, that no "actual baptism event" is recorded in "these" passages on "The Great Commission" that Jesus gave,......just the "actual planning" for this Holy ceremony being "commissioned" to His "eleven remaining disciples".

In "dealing with" and "instructing" His disciples,.....Jesus found that it "routinely required" for Him to "take His disciples to the side",.......and "expound" to them His teachings,.....Parables, etc. In His wisdom,.....Jesus wanted to "make sure" that they "understood perfectly" what His directions were in "all matters"! Jesus,.....consequently,......took "measures" to insure that His disciples were "fully instructed in His Word". The follow passages clearly show that He "left nothing to chance", in that, He made sure to it that when the World "heard from His disciples/Apostles",........they were, indeed,....."hearing from Him"!!!

Mark 4:34
King James Version (KJV)

34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Luke 24:45
King James Version (KJV)

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,



Now,.....let's see,.....how the disciples "used their understanding" that Jesus game them.


The disciples/Apostles in "action"....Implementing the Great Commission,....that our Lord, Jesus gave....

Again,.....let's look at Matthew 28:19........

Matthew 28:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:



Did the disciples/Apostles "obey" Jesus,....correctly,.....in the "Implementing of the Great Commission"?

Did the disciples/Apostles "recite the passage", by Jesus,....as they performed baptismal services, in the Book of Acts, which ushered in the "Church" age, as we know it?,.........OR........did the disciples/Apostles "fulfill the passage", by Jesus,....as they performed these "same" baptismal services?

"Again",..... recite the passage,....exactly as Jesus had spoken it,......OR.......fulfill the passage,.......as Jesus would have wanted them to do?

(notes of consideration)

1. Baptisms carried out by John the Baptist were "all" entirely prior to the Resurrection, and the ushering in of the "Church" age,....first defined and mentioned in Acts 2:47. As such,....no formula was uttered by John the Baptist in the performance of these baptisms,.....other than being "baptized unto repentance".

2. From this point on,....I will refer to the disciples/Apostles,.....as "Apostles",..only. The word "disciples" means followers of Jesus,.......whereas "they" became "Apostles",....meaning "doers" of the Works/Words of Jesus.

As Apostles, "doers", of Jesus' Works/Words,......let's see what they "actually DID"!


(Actual Baptisms performed by the Apostles)

1) Acts 2:37-38,....the "Day of Pentecost"....3,120 souls,...."Church began"!

Acts 2:37-38
King James Version (KJV)

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


2) Acts 8:14-17,....."Church" established in Samaria

Acts 8:14-17
King James Version (KJV)

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.


3) Acts 10:43-48,......."gentile believers"....Cornelius and household added to "Church"

Acts 10:43-48
King James Version (KJV)

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

(note.....while it may be pointed out, the KJV, .....does not specifically mention "a name", here,....."all" of these Bible versions,......The New International Version, Revised Version, Amplified Version, Living Bible, Greek Interlinear (the "original" text), Common English Version, Contemporary English Version, English Standard Version, GOD'S WORD Translation, Good News Translation, Holman Christian Standard Bible, J.B. Phillips New Testament, Lexham English Bible, The Message, Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament, New American Standard Bible, New Century Version, Worldwide English (New Testament), and Wycliffe Bible,.....DO ALL state,......"in the name of Jesus Christ"!,......It is equally noteworthy to recognize that the Complete Jewish Bible has it recorded, as follows........"48 And he ordered that they be immersed in the name of Yeshua the Messiah. That's "JESUS",.....to you and me!)


4) Acts 19:1-7,......The 12 disciples of John the Baptist re-baptized

Acts 19:1-7
King James Version (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.


We've just now observed "four actual baptismal accounts", in the Scriptures,....by the Apostles,....who "had their understanding opened, that they might understand the scriptures."

Now,.....let's look, again,....at "The Great Commission", given by Jesus, in Matthew Chapter 28.

Matthew 28:16-20
King James Version (KJV)

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


It should be especially noted,.....and recognized, here, .....that Jesus wanted "more" out of His Apostles than for them to "merely recite the words", that He spoke and directed to them in this passage! He wanted them to "specify the NAME",......His NAME,.....JESUS,......and "they DID just that",.....they baptized "exclusively" in the name of Jesus,.......EVERY SINGLE TIME !!!.


Look at verse 19, one more time,.......He said,...."in the name,......of the Father,....and.....of the Son,......and......of the Holy Ghost".

A "single" name was to used and "implemented" here,.......AND IT WAS,......by "those who understood Him",......they "exclusively" baptized in the name, (singular), of Jesus!,......."fulfilling what Jesus meant in the Great Commission",.....and not "just reciting His words".

The Apostles "fully understood",.....that the "name", (singular),.....of the Father,...Son,....and Holy Ghost,......was.......JESUS!


There is absolutely "no baptismal accounts",......ZERO,.......where the Apostles,.....or anyone else,......EVER baptized,.......using "or" reciting,......the phrase,......"in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" To do so would have meant to "exclude" the "actual NAME"!

(In conclusion)

Sadly, in the "face of Scriptural proof",.....there are many who say that it really doesn't matter,.......that "as long as your heart is right",.......any "baptismal formula" will suffice.

"If" that's correct,......why don't we see,....."EVER",..... the Apostles "ever using" an "alternative formula"?

Could it be that "they" understood there was only one way to "correctly" perform Baptisms?

Could it be that "they" understood that there would only be "ONE NAME" that could possibly be used in the act of "obtaining one's salvation"?


Could it be that "they" understood "that name" to be,.........JESUS???

Acts 4:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


I think "they" must have understood the scriptures,..........don't you?

I think that "they" fully understood,......that there was only "one valid baptism"

What do you think?


Love and Peace,.........kreagle

[Unified Serenity]

Unified Serenity,

Would you "care" for a "black and white" version? Would "that" cause you to read it,.....or are you just looking for an excuse?

Love and Peace,.........kreagle

Kreagle, I am insulted at this minute by your insinuating I would

A. Look for an excuse
B. Need an excuse
C. Want an excuse

I believe I said exactly what I desired. You can do whatever the eff you want, I will do what I want at this point.

[kreagle]

Unified Serenity,

I am at a loss on what to say to you. Quite frankly, your "response" back to me does nothing but "confirm" my suspicions. I have never been "harsh" to you,.....or anyone else on this board. I intend to keep it that way. If you "feel" that you been "insulted",......I profoundly apologize! Are you sure it's the "color" of my text that "really bothers you",.......or........is it the "content"? I guess I should have the equal right to feel "insulted",.....with your blatant choice of "language",......but I choose to be more mature in the matter.

Love and Peace,........kreagle

[Unified Serenity]

Kreagle,

I said exactly what was bothering me with your style of writing. You showed that you can't understand that sometimes people say what they mean and mean what they say. It was an insult for you to suggest that I need some excuse to not interact with you, and yet on your subsequent posts I notice you are no longer acting like a kindergardener grabbing a new crayon for every other word. Now, is that a coincidence that you KNEW what I meant and just wanted to pick a fight or did you get some rhema between my telling to to do what the eff you want and your next post? Note, you edited your short post to add all that afterwards.

Your original post said only this:


Unified Serenity,

Would you "care" for a "black and white" version? Would "that" cause you to read it,.....or are you just looking for an excuse?

Love and Peace,.........kreagle


When you do a sizable edit and not just a typo correction it is best to make a note that you are adding to your post so as to not leave others with a different impression. I simply add a new post which puts in a nice red "edit" note and the readers can understand I have added thoughts. I do appreciate your not using multiple colors now, and I think you knew what I meant when I typed my rather nice note about it to begin with. You chose to throw out an insult by insinuating I was looking for an excuse to not interact with you. I think most people on this forum know by now that I don't look for excuses to not interact with those I disagree with.

[kreagle]

Unified Serenity,

Two of your "recent posts",........#1289........and.........#1372,.........gave me the "previous impression" that you really didn't have a problem with "colors", so I consequently felt that you had "other issues" with my post.

In post #1289, by you, you promote the "Complete Jewish Bible" and then go on to suggest that we download the e-sword,.....which was "very colorful" to say the least. How do you use this site, if "colors" bother you that much? (note: the "same" identical reason this commentary uses "colors",.....is "why"......I use colors, too!)

In post #1372, by you,.....(which is nicely done, I might add),.....you don't seem to mind using a "good deal" of "blues" and "purples"

Surely you don't mean that "colors" are meant........only for you!!!

(note.......I repeat, again, I'm sorry if you are offended!)

Let's not spend any more time on this "off colored" topic.

Love and Peace,.....please!,......kreagle

[Unified Serenity]

I use one color on an entire sentence. I use bold to emphasize, and I use say purple to really emphasize and it again is in a single block. I do not change colors throughout a sentence the way you do, and most of my writing is not as yours has been with constant color changes. I only do this on quoting a larger biblical passage and change the color of the sentences of direct relation to the point I was making. It is entirely different from your style. I will go so far as to say, if anyone agrees with me regarding what I have said here, please speak up. If you disagree, by all means do that as well. I simply said your constant color changes are disquieting to my spirit to read, and confusing. I therefore won't read those posts any longer if you choose to keep up that style.

If my changing the entire color of one or two sentences is an immense problem and someone tells me, then I will consider changing that for them if I wish have them participate in my threads. Please go back over the plethora of posts I have made and not you and I have very different styles, even when I use colors. [Edit to add this sentence] This post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35019-the-Bible&p=516086&viewfull=1#post516086) is how I emphasize. [end edit]

It's not back and forth back and forth red blue green one bold one not bold like this example of your writing:


18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


It should be especially noted,.....and recognized, here, .....that Jesus wanted "more" out of His Apostles than for them to "merely recite the words", that He spoke and directed to them in this passage! He wanted them to "specify the NAME",......His NAME,.....JESUS,......and "they DID just that",.....they baptized "exclusively" in the name of Jesus,.......EVERY SINGLE TIME !!!.


Look at verse 19, one more time,.......He said,...."in the name,......of the Father,....and.....of the Son,......and......of the Holy Ghost".

A "single" name was to used and "implemented" here,.......AND IT WAS,......by "those who understood Him",......they "exclusively" baptized in the name, (singular), of Jesus!,......."fulfilling what Jesus meant in the Great Commission",.....and not "just reciting His words".

The Apostles "fully understood",.....that the "name", (singular),.....of the Father,...Son,....and Holy Ghost,......was.......JESUS!


There is absolutely "no baptismal accounts",......ZERO,.......where the Apostles,.....or anyone else,......EVER baptized,.......using "or" reciting,......the phrase,......"in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" To do so would have meant to "exclude" the "actual NAME"!

(In conclusion)

Sadly, in the "face of Scriptural proof",.....there are many who say that it really doesn't matter,.......that "as long as your heart is right",.......any "baptismal formula" will suffice.

"If" that's correct,......why don't we see,....."EVER",..... the Apostles "ever using" an "alternative formula"?

Could it be that "they" understood there was only one way to "correctly" perform Baptisms?

Could it be that "they" understood that there would only be "ONE NAME" that could possibly be used in the act of "obtaining one's salvation"?


Could it be that "they" understood "that name" to be,.........JESUS???

Acts 4:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


I think "they" must have understood the scriptures,..........don't you?

I think that "they" fully understood,......that there was only "one valid baptism"

What do you think?Your last sentence of "What do you think"" is leaving me going, "what the hell did you just say?" I find it very hard to follow that style of writing. Again, if you wish to have me interact, then stop doing it. The judicious use of color is to emphasize, but if every other word is emphasized via a different color then nothing is emphasized really, and it's just hard to read. You decide, I will respond accordingly by either participating or not.

[kreagle]

Unified Serenity,

The saddest thing about all of this is that "instead" of you absorbing the "content" of this post,.....as it was intended for,......it has developed into something entirely different.

Just recently, in your post #1350, you testify about the "blessing you received" by being able to participate in the baptizing of a few people. You even go a "step further", by indicating that you understand the proper way to do this,......and that's in the name of Jesus,.......not His Titles,.....of Father,...Son,....and Holy Ghost. To that I say,......God Bless You,....immensely!! This was the "whole purpose" of my post,......to bring out the declaration of the Scripture, in that,......there is "one valid baptism".

I will honestly "attempt" to cut down on my usage of so many colors in the future. As I readily admitted, earlier,.......as in the case of the "e-sword commentary" you advised us about,.....I was "equally" highlighting passages in an effort to "point out" the many "hidden gems" that are contained in the Word of God. It is extremely frustrating to observe so many people "overlooking" some of the most beautiful concepts in His Word. I confess I am completely guilty of "going to the extremes" in an attempt to "show" someone the truth. Maybe you won't hold this against me, forever!

Your servant and friend,.......kreagle

[Lettherebelight]

I agree with Unified Serenity in that multi coloured posts are unpleasant to read, not because of the content, just the colour changing and then changing and then changing....Why! Does the author think it makes the message more attractive? Or understandable?

Remember, females generally do not suffer from colour blindness and have a keener perception of colours, textures, etc.

Anyhoo, I usually skip over those multi coloured posts as I find them nerve jangling. But I always read the 'Love and peace.......kreagle' !

[RedeZra]

look the children of God is not above quarreling about colors

isn't that cute ; )

[greybeard]

Regardless kreagle went to a lot of time and effort to produce the work of art and I appreciate both the black and whit and the other version.
Chris

[kreagle]

Regardless kreagle went to a lot of time and effort to produce the work of art and I appreciate both the black and whit and the other version.
Chris

greybeard,

Your kind words mean a great deal to me. You are "correct", in that, a good deal of time was expended in "gathering my thoughts" and submitting this. Regardless,.....there is no amount of time that is not worth spending on "lifting up the name of Jesus."

I am mortified when I think of the multitude of people who wind up "spending a lifetime rubbing elbows" with Jesus,......but actually never progress to the "next stage" of knowing Him! This is compounded by the fact that "most" feel that this is perfectly "acceptable",.....to only have a "casual" acquaintance with Him. Nothing could be further from the truth!

Matthew 7:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


This passage of Scripture should be "extremely sobering" to those who read it. It fully indicates that it will definitely take more than just a "casual acquaintance" with God. If we truly want to be "known by God",........than we better make sure that "we" get to know Him!! It "is" a two-way street,.....if you catch my drift!

Did I go "overboard" in my presentation on "who He is"?,......YES!

Would I do it "again"?,.........YES!,.....I would!

"Someone",......just might,.......be "eternally grateful",......for it,....one day!!

"NOT",.....to me, kreagle,........but,....to HIM,.......for He is the only one that matters!!!


Once again,.....thank you, my friend

Love and Peace,...........kreagle

[HORIZONS]

I was going to post this idea on another thread, but alas, it was closed - so I will post it here as it relates to my understanding of the Bible.

I feel that the Bible is a spiritual book, and that it is in the light of revelation and spiritual understanding that I receive the most from it. I personally think that there are several ways people can understand the Bible, to some level, but for me it is the spiritual interpretation of the scriptures that makes the most sense. I seek the revelation knowledge of what is being said, and try not to get bogged down in the letter of it all, but I still try and listen to everyones POV. With that being said, I would like to address this issue from my understanding of the Bible. I realize that there are MANY things going on in the earth today - some we know of and some we do not - but I am still always drawn back to my roots, and my spiritual understanding of who I am.

Acts 17:24-28 "GOD who made the universe and everything in it--He, being Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in sanctuaries built by men. Nor is He ministered to by human hands, as though He needed anything--but He Himself gives to all men life and breath and all things. He caused to spring from one forefather people of every race, for them to live on the whole surface of the earth, and marked out for them an appointed span of life and the boundaries of their homes; that they might seek God, if perhaps they could grope for Him and find Him. Yes, though He is not far from any one of us. For it is in closest union with Him that we live and move and have our being; as in fact some of the poets in repute among yourselves have said, `For we are also His offspring.'". -Weymouth.

If God has created all the races of mankind from one forefather then who are the true Children of Abraham, and heirs of the promise of God?

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."(Matthew 1:1, KJV).

The first thing that must be understood is that Jesus is recorded as one of the sons of Abraham. In fact He is the last son listed in Abraham's genealogy. Jesus, the Christ, is the last person listed in the generations of Abraham. Why is that, and what happened to the lineage after Christ Jesus?

Abraham is the father of faith, and everything about him pointed to Christ. The Abrahamic covenant is summed up in the Christ. " In you all the families of the earth will be blessed," is the declaration about God's covenant with Abraham. This covenant is fulfilled in the person and work of Christ – for it is in Him that all the families of the earth receive their blessing. For salvation from this world of sin and darkness comes to us by no other name/nature than that of Christ Jesus.

So, Christ Jesus is the last one listed in the lineage of Abraham, and it is in Christ that the genealogy continues.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ." (Galatians 3:16, KJV).
It is important to notice that the promise was made to "Abraham and his seed " and that the seed is Christ. The promise is transferred from a natural people in the Old Covenant, to a spiritual people in the New Covenant. Now, no one is excluded from the promises made to Abraham. Christ is the seed of Abraham, and it is now the people in Christ that are the children of Abraham.

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."(Galatians 3:7, KJV).

My NKJ renders it this way, "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham." It is only those who of faith and are born of the Spirit of God that are the true children of Abraham. This is how the New Covenant works. The natural nation of Israel is no longer the “chosen people” – the people of faith are now the true Israel.
In Christ the Genealogy changed from a natural people to a spiritual people. There are Jews over in Israel, and around the world, but God is working out His covenant in a spiritual people, born of the spirit; who are now the true Israel of God. It matters not what nationality you are, it is weather you are in Christ or not.

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."(Galatians 3:27-29, KJV).

You are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise if you are in Christ. The true church is the children of Abraham, the Israel of God. We are of the Jerusalem which is above, that which is of the Spirit, which is the mother of us all; but this is not according to the flesh of man, but according to the Spirit of God. ( Gal. 4:21-31 & 5:6 & 6:15,16. Rom. 4:11. )

So, who then is the Jew?

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28,29, KJV).

From a Biblical New Covenant understanding the true Jew is the individual that has been born of the Spirit into the spiritual Kingdom of God, that is, the one that has had the circumcision of the heart – the cutting away of the ways and means of this natural world. It is the cutting away of the man of flesh, the old Adamic nature. Again, what was natural to Abraham has become spiritual to us. The natural circumcision of Abraham's covenant with God is but a type and shadow of God's covenant with us. Circumcision of the heart is the new birth experience; it's God's covenant with us that we are saved from the realm of death and translated in to a realm of Life. You are spiritually dead before you get born from above, but at that point you leave the race of the dead, all those in Adam, and enter a brand new race, those who are in Christ. Your heart is changed; you are now a new creation in Christ, a spiritual Jew – God's chosen people. This is the true Israel today, and anyone can be in this spiritual nation – as “flesh and blood profits nothing”.

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. "(1 Peter 2: 9,10, KJV).
God's chosen people are not a natural people over in the Middle East somewhere, but a spiritual people, the true church of Christ Jesus. This spiritual Israel is people for a purpose, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, that they might show forth the grace, mercy and love of God to all people. This is not a nation of elitists, but is a people that show forth the goodness of God.

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. (Exodus 19:5,6, KJV).

The true church is now the children of Israel, we are the children of the promise, and the holy nation Peter was talking about. The church is to be a kingdom of priest's showing forth the praises of God to the rest of the world. This is what God has been after all along when He spoke to Abraham. It's why Christ Jesus died. His death and resurrection is the entrance into you to becoming something you had know way of becoming in your own personal self. The true Israel of God is a spiritual nation, and can be found in all nations of the world.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:6-8, KJV).
Paul had a longing for the natural nation of Israel to be involved in the New Covenant. All they would have to do is believe in Christ Jesus whom God had sent. So it doesn't matter what your natural birth is, but rather what your spiritual birth is. Are you in Christ or not? It's who your in, not where you come from. It's not where you were born in the flesh, but whom you’re born in after the Spirit. ( Eph. 2:11-22 & Heb. 12:22-24 & Rev. 21:2,3. )

The true Church - which is a spiritual people, not a building on the corner - is the true Israel of God. We, the spiritual people of God, are the Holy city New Jerusalem. We are kings and priests of God, a people for a purpose. We are the children of Abraham. We are called to show forth the praises of our God. We are a Royal Priesthood. Why? - "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." (Eph.2:7 NKJ).

There is much more to this, but this is the basic understanding presented in the New Covenant according to the Pauline revelation in the Bible.

[kreagle]

HORIZONS,

Thank you for this "excellent" post! Truly we have become "a holy nation",....the "Spiritual Israel"!

I am extremely limited by time, right now, but had to respond to the content of your message.

Great,.......my friend!

Love and Peace,..........kreagle

[GCS1103]

Horizons- What a beautiful and profound post you made. I find myself in agreement with you, but could never write it down as well as you did.

[crested-duck]

November 18, 1302





AntiPope Boniface VIII of the Roman Cult





Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.





We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.





However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.









































Key Facts







Other names

Ba'al



Year of origin

1136 CE



Location

Rome



Material

Human skin, usually from sacrificed children and/or famous heretics.



List of Bulls

List of Papal Bulls














Background





A Papal Bull is a formal document issued by a Roman Cult Pontiff upon a major act of law, curse or claim to extend the power of the Cult over its claimed domination of the world, all nations, all people, all law and all religions. All legitimate Papal Bulls were issued on human skin, usually the skin of a sacrificed child, or some famous heretic. Forgeries are on calf skin or some other lesser medium.





The first legitimate Papal Bull is probably around 1136 called Ex commisso nobis by Pope Innocent II in the claimed excommunication of the Saxon (German) Pope at Magdeburg.





Unfortunately, many of the key Papal Bulls are missing (such as 1249) and most have been deliberately forged over the centuries onto calf or sheep skin, to re-write history and hide their original form on human skin. However, it is unlikely the originals on the skin of those murdered by the Cult - especially children - have been destroyed as they remain the foundation of the Roman Cult and a core source of their supernatural power.





Any claimed Papal Bulls prior 1136 must be viewed as suspect and any alleged Papal Bulls prior to 1079 are complete frauds as the Roman Cult did not claim Rome as quasi-christians until Gregory VII against the founders of the Catholic Church, the Franks.





Original source and concept of Papal Bulls





The claim that Papal Bulls are named after the bulla of ancient Roman documents is a complete absurdity - they are dedications to the Dark Lord or Ba'al Satan to whom the Roman Cult dedicate their works in secret.





The use of human skin is a fundamental prerequisite for a Papal Bull to have power as this is a concept of necromancy inherited through the Rabbi of Venice, the successors of the Sarmatians, themselves the successors of the Scythians and Tarsus, the successors of Mari and the amurru, the city founded itself from exiles of Ur.





The Latin word vellum from vellus means not only a fleece or hide but also “human” skin, indicating that at the Roman times the meaning of this form of writing material was still known.





In fact it was the Roman Cult itself through the formation of the College of Abbreviators that create the word "Parchment" to describe the fundamental form for legitimate Papal Bulls- “parchment” meaning parca = one of the three fates - the fate of death, h = letter of binding and ment/mentis = mind, thought, intention, intellect or in other words “mind/soul bound to the fate of death”.





Official Papal Method for creating Vellum/Parchment for Bulls





The awful ritual of murdering children for using their skin for Papal Bulls and other Spells was first outlined in the Grimoire of Pope Honorius III at the beginning of the 13th Century. But instead of explicitly using the word "human child", the word "kid" is used. Today, the word kids is accepted as a word for children.





The same ritual appears as standard procedure in subsequent Grimoires of black magic published by the Popes and the introduction to the specifics of the ritual may be viewed in Arthur Edward Waite's Book of Ceremonial Magic Pg 171:





Concerning the Victim of the Art





Take your kid (child); place it on a block with the throat turned upward, so that it may be easier for you to cut it; be ready with your knife, and cut the throat with a single stroke, pronouncing the name o the Spirit whom you wish to invoke. For example, say: "I slay thee, N. (name of child) in the name and to the honor of N. (name of spirit)". Have a care that two blows not be needed, but let it die at the first; then skin with the knife and while skinning it make the following Invocation...





The highest form- succession of form





Under all western law, the highest form of law and literally the highest form upon which any writing exists is a Papal Bull- based on parchment, being the skin of sacrificed children. In the system devised by the Roman Cult, no other document can claim higher standing.





This is a key reason why all legitimate Bulls were written on the skin of sacrificed innocent children, cursed, sodomised and then brutally butchered- because the Roman Cult did not publicly permit any documents to be written on parchment from human skin, no other documents could claim "human personality" and therefore real spiritual life.





Under the perverse and corrupt system of law that dominates the world today, the Roman Cult has convinced all jurisdictions to consider documents as devoid of life, except for those granted limited powers to resurrect the "dead paper" of a document to limited life, through the form of certain seals. Yet under this wholly evil and wicked system, no document has higher "life" that a Papal Bull being a satanic curse and binding usng the flesh of innocents to "trap their soul" to the form.





Regardless of this perversity, under Western law, legally Papal Bulls technically stand as the highest form of original law - therefore what they say (always written in Latin) is technically the law.





Forgeries and fraudulent Bulls on display





Unfortunately, the published and "official" version of most Papal Bulls prior to the 19th Century are deliberate fakes, with the words hardly representing anything like the original content.





This is especially significant for Papal Bulls representing historic Deeds and Wills in that such frauds when clearly noted constitutes fundamental and fatal breach in the very trust laws first created by the Papacy.





Therefore, such deliberate and conscious fraud of alterting key Papal Bulls has resulted in the collapse of all the major Trusts and Testamentary Trusts of the Papacy. The continuation of obeyance to such claimed authority itself is a fraud against the rules of Trusts and Property by which the whole world allegedly adheres and such organizations as the United Nations, the Bank for International Settlements are guilty of fundamental and gross fraud in recognizing the Vatican has any effective authority.











---------------------------------------------------



Year

Bull (Incipit)

Translation

Issued By

Description



1136

Ex commisso nobis



Innocent II

Excommunicates Saxon Pope at Magdeburg



1155

Laudabiliter

Laudably

Adrian IV

Gives English King Henry II lordship over Ireland



1179

Manifestis Probatum



Alexander III

Recognition of the kingdom of Portugal and Afonso Henriques as the first king



1187

Audita tremendi

Hearing what terrible

Gregory VIII

Calls for the Third Crusade



1198

Post Miserabile



Innocent III

Calls for the Fourth Crusade



1213

Quia maior



Innocent III

Calls for the Fifth Crusade



1216

Religiosam vitam

The religious life

Honorius III

Established the Dominican Order



1223

Solet annuere



Honorius III

Approves the Rule of St. Francis



1232

Ille humani generis



Gregory IX

Creation of Inquisition under Dominicans



1233

Vox in Rama

A voice in Ramah

Gregory IX

Creates fear of witchcraft in Germany (Saxony)



1235

Cum hora undecima

Since the eleventh hour

Gregory IX

First bull authorizing pagan friars to preach to pagan nations



1245

Cum simus super



Innocent IV

Rome claimed primacy over Eastern Churches- creating new orthodox church.



1252

Ad exstirpanda

For the elimination

Innocent IV

Authorizes the use of torture



1296

Redemptor mundi

Redeemer of the world

Boniface VIII

Named James II of Aragon as standardbearer, captain-general, and admiral



1296

Clericis Laicos

Lay clerics

Boniface VIII

Excommunicates all members of the clergy who refuse allegience to the Holy See



1300

Antiquorum fida relatio



Boniface VIII

Creates the Jubilee Years, granting indulgences



1302

Unam Sanctam

The One Holy

Boniface VIII

Creates 1st Express Trust in history for whole Planet.



1307

Pastoralis praeminentiæ



Clement V

arrest of the Knights Templar and the confiscation of their possessions



1455

Romanus Pontifex

The Roman pontiff

Nicholas V

1st Testamentary Deed & Will & 1st Crown over Land



1481

Aeterni regis

Eternal Crown

Sixtus IV

2nd testamentary Deed & Will & 2nd Crown of People as Permanent Slaves



1537

Convocation

Assembly

Paul III

3rd Testamentary Deed & Will & 3rd Crown over Souls



1540

Regimini militantis ecclesiae

To the Government of the Church Militant

Paul III

Creation of Jesuit Order



1550

Exposcit debitum

The Duty demands

Julius III

Additional powers of Jesuits


For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontif
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © One-Evil.org 2011. All Rights Reserved

[kreagle]

crested-duck,......or "anyone"?

What are the "intentions" of your previous post,..... #1398? Obviously you have "copied and pasted" this entire article from a "source" on www.One-evil.org. , as indicated at the bottom of your post. Furthermore, you have made no attempt to add any words of your own. Upon visiting this website, it is easy to tell that their main purpose is to be a "whistle-blower", of sorts, in reference to EVIL, in general. Catholicism is prominently mentioned here with a long, long, list of their ancient church history. Is this an attempt to expose, further, the many "sins" of the Catholic Church, by you?

Am I missing something here?

Love and Peace,..........kreagle

[Beren]

It is an error premise to connect Bible with any Christian religion.
Why ?

Because they claim to follow it and to be Christian churches but in fact their doctrines ,deeds, words are complete evidences against their claims.
Anyone who has attempted ,even more actively studied (as many of us are) Bible has found out that no one follows Christ and God (I mean organized religion).

There are beautiful people everywhere in any religion that claims Christ stamp on it, but as groups not a single one.

Why?

Power-lust and money reasons.
Throughout history.

Also today we find out how many other forces intermingles their fingers here. Their nature is spirit and they can take any form they like.
They were called demons and such in the past and now are called ET's.

Anyways studying Bible is a multi level task and as more you grow in awareness you find more layers in it and more gems.
Nothing is as it seems and everything is depending upon our own very will.

Jesus taught in parables because high concepts of spirit were not understandable then, even today are weakly understood.

I call everyone here that reads this thread to leave quarrel behind and delve deep into God's word.
Let us not impose our own point of view upon others forcefully for it is AGAINST spirit of Love ,thus Spirit of God ,thus spirit of Christ.

I for one can attest of the glory of Father and Son and Holy spirit for I've seen it in my life and I've living it daily in growing in understanding of God.
Only one word of caution- stay away from embodiment of fear (whomever and whatever that may be) and closed mind.
Otherwise you will not move a single step forward.

[crested-duck]

crested-duck,......or "anyone"?

What are the "intentions" of your previous post,..... #1398? Obviously you have "copied and pasted" this entire article from a "source" on www.One-evil.org. , as indicated at the bottom of your post. Furthermore, you have made no attempt to add any words of your own. Upon visiting this website, it is easy to tell that their main purpose is to be a "whistle-blower", of sorts, in reference to EVIL, in general. Catholicism is prominently mentioned here with a long, long, list of their ancient church history. Is this an attempt to expose, further, the many "sins" of the Catholic Church, by you?

Am I missing something here?

Love and Peace,..........kreagle

What was posted was for purpose of your awareness to this reality which directly effects us all daily still today... I highly suggest you take the time and put forth the effort to read : The Journey of UCA (universal conscious awareness", and The journey of Self, written by Frank O Collins....Sincertely Rob

[truthseekerdan]

http://cdn.tdfimg.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/who-wrote-bible.jpg

Robert Beckford learned the Bible at his mother’s knee and grew up believing that it was literally true. But, 20 years on from his Baptist upbringing, Beckford is no longer so sure that ‘the good book’ is the pure, unadulterated word of God untouched by human hand.

For Beckford, who wrote the Bible matters more today than perhaps at any other moment in living memory. His journey takes him from Birmingham to the West Bank, from Jerusalem to Turkey, and from Rome to Bible Belt America.

2061773048178434620

Link: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/who-wrote-bible/

[observer]

http://cdn.tdfimg.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/who-wrote-bible.jpg

2061773048178434620

Link: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/who-wrote-bible/

It's been posted before, in this thread, truthseekerdan.

Thanks for bringing it back up.


Click-on forwarding arrow to see content of comment #875.

Beckford's work goes a long way in presenting evidence the Bible is the clever manipulation by hyperdimensional entities, through the skillful use of mental telepathy for the purpose of enslaving the soul of the Human species - an objective interpretation of the mass of evidence to this conclusion.

It's a matter of 'bait-and-switch'. Yeshua ben Joseph never subscribed to Yahweh being the 'One True God'. The concept that Yahweh is that God is all a manipulation of men who were telepathically influenced by hyperdimensional entities.

Read the Nag Hammadi Library (http://http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/nag_hammadi/contents.htm)!!! These are the books that should be included in the Bible, but were rejected by those hyperdimensionally influenced to reject this material so many thousand years ago.

But.... will those already so hypnotized ever make this realization??? .... or will they even look at the evidence???

[truthseekerdan]

It's been posted before, in this thread, truthseekerdan.

Thanks for bringing it back up.

Sorry observer my bad, did not read the whole thread to know that it has been posted... :)


Read the Nag Hammadi Library (http://http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/nag_hammadi/contents.htm)!!! These are the books that should be included in the Bible, but were rejected by those hyperdimensionally influenced to reject this material so many thousand years ago.

But.... will those already so hypnotized ever make this realization??? .... or will they even look at the evidence???

Good point, observer!
For those that only follow the bible for their spiritual progress -- what happened to these verses that are overlooked so often? "Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil." -- 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205:19-22&version=NKJV)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGBc5h7vRJE

Playlist of all 10 parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGBc5h7vRJE&feature=channel&list=UL

[kreagle]

crested-duck,......or "anyone"?

What are the "intentions" of your previous post,..... #1398? Obviously you have "copied and pasted" this entire article from a "source" on www.One-evil.org. , as indicated at the bottom of your post. Furthermore, you have made no attempt to add any words of your own. Upon visiting this website, it is easy to tell that their main purpose is to be a "whistle-blower", of sorts, in reference to EVIL, in general. Catholicism is prominently mentioned here with a long, long, list of their ancient church history. Is this an attempt to expose, further, the many "sins" of the Catholic Church, by you?

Am I missing something here?

Love and Peace,..........kreagle

What was posted was for purpose of your awareness to this reality which directly effects us all daily still today... I highly suggest you take the time and put forth the effort to read : The Journey of UCA (universal conscious awareness", and The journey of Self, written by Frank O Collins....Sincertely Rob

crested-duck,

Oh, I can assure you that I am "fully aware" of the long, long, history of the Catholic Church. I was just not fully persuaded what your "intentions" were,....so consequently my post.

As you have "alluded to", in your post,......there seems to be an "alarming number of individuals" who are oblivious to what has taken place in the past.

In my "very recent post",......(#1381,....on the previous page),.....the Word of God reveals that baptism was "exclusively performed" by the Apostles in the name of God, which is Jesus,........and "not" in His titles of ,......Father,....Son,.....and Holy Ghost!

The "horror" behind all of this is that multitudes, upon multitudes of "churches" are,.....and have been,.....falling prey to this "blatant" error, in the performing of this Holy Christian Ceremony,....(vital to the salvation of one's soul),......and are "still" baptizing in His titles of ,......Father,......Son,.....and Holy Ghost!

Any "seeker of truth",.....who becomes made aware of this kind of monumental discrepancy,......should immediately ask themselves,......."How did this happen?,.......When and where did this "first" happen and occur in Church history?,..........Where did "this train" come off the tracks?"

Somewhere along the line,.....this "diversion" was brought into existence,.......or given "birth" to,......and, as such, a "birth certificate" exists,.....somewhere!

If you, as a "seeker of truth", are willing to do,......just a nominal search of "Church history",.......you will find who is the "Father" of this "diversion",......and where this "birth certificate" resides!

The "birth certificate",...(doctrine of the trinity,....with "its" message of baptizing in His titles,......Father,......Son,.....and Holy Ghost),....resides in Rome, at the Vatican,.........and its "Father",.........is the Catholic Church.


The "trinity doctrine",.....first defined, by Catholicism, at the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., changed the "original" baptismal formula , used by the Apostles, in the Book of Acts. They changed the baptismal formula from the name of Jesus Christ,......to,.......Father, Son and Holy Ghost. (World Book Encyclopedia, 1984, Vol. T, p. 363. Also Chaney Encyclopedia p. 53)


(in conclusion)

Train "derailments" are a horrible thing to witness and observe. Church history has become "filled with carnage" over similar "spiritual derailments". Woe unto those who are responsible for the "derailments". Through all of this,.....I'm happy to report,.....there remains,....and always has remained,....a "glorious Church",.....washed in His blood,......and "on track". Glory to God!


Love and Peace,.......kreagle

[crested-duck]

The following can be found here:http://www.ucadia.com/uca/u23/231200.htm

The "end of time" as we know it







A revelation spoken of in all cultures is the end of time. A point where we cease to exist. In todays modern world, we consider this to be the extinction of life on planet Earth. Yet to those that wrote prophecies 2000 and 3000 years ago, the end of time could even have been as simple as the end of a civilization and its culture.







Such an event- the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, the abolition of the Jewish calendar of Time and the imposition of the Caesarian calendar of time (basically what we have today) would have certainly represented the "end of time" for ancient Jews. It is in the preceding years of this period, that the prophecies of John and the Apocalypse of the Essenes at Qumran (the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls) were written. It is certain by the Dead Sea Scrolls and the basic architecture of the book of revelation that these texts were written. They were not written for, nor meant to be interpreted as prophecies of events yet to come 2000 years on.







The end of time can be seen not only as a physical event, but an associated cultural event as one cultures system of time is lost to another, or all cultures are lost together.







Interpreted this way, the "end of time" has been occurring in different parts of the planet for thousands of years. Even as recently as fifty years ago, the "end of time" was occurring in parts of Sth America, SE Asia and the Nth America as ancient indigenous cultures perished under Roman Time Law.





23.12.1

The nature of Time







The measurement of time is an essential part of an civilized system of organized settlement. Civilizations have designed their own calendars for thousands of years. The Aztecs, the Mayans had their own calendar of counting the days, weeks and months.







The Romans, under Julius Caesar were the first to implement an international calendar of measuring time. If we still used the calendar of Julius Caesar, this would be year 2300 something. As it is, we record this year as being 1997.







Year 0 of our present day Western calendar is supposed to link back to the year of Birth of Jesus Christ ( hence the historical usage of BC and AD). In other words, the year 1997 has its identification because it is regarded as 1997 years since Jesus was born.







In hindsight, the year in which Jesus was supposed to be born is now regarded as 3BC, as 3 years were somehow "lost" between 0AD and 1997AD. Therefore, if we took the original intention of the calendar to accurately list how many years since the birth of Jesus, then 1997 is in fact year 2000!





23.12.2

The pervasiveness of Roman Christian Time Law







The Roman Christian Calendar as devised by Pope Gregory IX has been a powerful weapon for that organisation and those that it supports. It has become the dominant method of calculating time and therefore in most people's mind "time itself".







We talk of Mondays, Tuesdays, Friday. We talk of hours, minutes and seconds and March, May and June. To us, this is time material. Yet time material is in fact a "working model" as structured and phrased by Roman Christian Politics 1600 years ago.







Yet what other value does this Christian calendar provide? For instance, does the calendar enable us to understand from say March 1997 that the 1st of each month= the cycle of the moon? or does the calendar assist in understanding the regular seasons of the Suns rotation around other Stars, then around the galaxy? More to the point, could we devise a calendar that simply could provide us an accurate measure of time AND position?







The answer is yes. The Christian calendar does nothing more than to entrench in the mind of every person that uses the calendar that 0 = Jesus' birth.





23.12.2

The power of controlling time







Could you imagine it- controlling time. Time itself in your hands- where you decide the calendar for managing 6 billion people's lives. This is the jewel in the crown of the most modern Roman Christian Empire- the Roman Catholic and associated Christian Churches. They control time across the planet and have done for hundreds of years.







It is a powerful weapon of reinforcement and politics that has existed within the Vatican armory for most of modern history. It has defined and redefined history to its own ends. It has set mind maps from which we rarely escape and consider- such as what about a 5 day week? or a four day weekend?





23.12.3

The stubbornness of the "end of time" Christian mindset







In spite of the original texts being quoted being written for ancient history and in spite of the Roman Christian Calendar being a made up human concept- many hundreds of millions of humans alive today believe that one day armageddon will appear, time will end as we know it when the revelation of ALL appears.







No matter how you try, the "end of time" images and reinforcement of Roman Christian Culture is virtually impossible to shift. Like ten tonnes of lead, it shuts peoples minds to possibilities and breeds internal ill and paranoia.







Therefore, repudiating the end of time as a figment of Roman Christian Mind Manipulation, the only was to overcome is push forward and say YES- NOW IS THE END OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT.





23.12.4

NOW IS THE END OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT







Supporting the prophetic belief that a messenger will come to reveal ALL at the end of time, is the recognition of a superior means of measuring time- a system that takes into account the orbit of the moon, the sun and its neighbours and a great cycle- the time of OPUS- ( as described in the section of this site called OPUS).







But from the true perspective of the creator, from the perspective of ALL, the highest ideal is life. And the greatest and most precious example of life is unique life forms that are self aware and geared to experience life in all its diversities.







The human being is such a lifeform. To UCA and to the ALL, we are the crowing glory of existence, for we are so alive and so unique (whether we sometimes understand this or not).







To UCA, intelligence is not the ultimate prize, nor are answering all the questions that have ever been asked. It is all knowledge, it is everything. That you are human 1st is the most prestigious of gifts and highest of honours. Unique, diverse life, forever is what ALL means.







That for all the knowledge you have read, for all that you are, what makes you most special is that you are human first. Being ALL is nothing special. Having a unique perspective, feeling emotions, feeling alive is.







It is time to come home to the underlying truth and understanding that ALL brings. You are you, yet you are more (LLA). But you are only more because you are you (ALL).







It is time to return to what it feels like to be human. Not to worry about how much or how little we know. To be happy. To be human first. To truly be yourself.

[Unified Serenity]

I humbly disagree duck. There were specific prophetic events that had to occur in a sequence. One of them was the complete removal of Israel as a nation, then for it to come back as if from the dead, that happened in 1948 after nearly 2000 years of not being a nation. That is a miracle. Then there are the last generation prophecies which are all falling into place. Of course Christians throughout the ages have been looking for the last days because they want to go home and sadly this world is not a great place for most Christians spiritually speaking. It's far easier to enjoy this world if one is of this world and doing well in it. Once someone is reborn with a heart of Messiah, they are no longer of this world, and it's quite an uncomfortable place to be, but one can learn to adapt.

I appreciate your sharing, we just disagree on some stuff.

[HORIZONS]

70 AD was the end of the world - end of the Age - for the natural nation of Israel, the Old Covenant was now over, and a New Covenant - a New Age - began. Many prophetic events - that many people are still looking for to happen - were in fact fulfilled at this time in history ... but that is another story.

A search and study of "70 AD" and what all happened then is a good place to start if you want to know more about this.

[greybeard]

I suppose where I have a concern is that is implied that The Bible is the only book that carries the word of God.
What about the Bagavadgita and the Koran just to mention two?
I feel that the assumption, if that be the case, that The Bible is the only valid place where the word of God can be found actually is a limited view of That which is without limit- God.
Human attributes are also put on God which I feel are limiting.
The God of the Old Testament seems vindictive-- showing favouritism--- my will or else and other all too human characteristics.

The God I believe in is a God of unconditional love.
I have experienced that Love when death came close.

Unconditional love in my understanding means exactly that ---that is without condition.
If you love God with all your heart in any non Christian tradition I believe that is enough.
If you love God then obviously you also love Christ as He is God.

"Call my name and you will be saved."
Various cultures have different names for God but I believe it is exactly the same God they are calling on.
To be clear I have no problem with Jesus the Christ being Saviour.

Chris

[Unified Serenity]

Truth is truth no matter the book one finds it in. There are a lot of great books that the Jew hating council of Nicea threw out. I have studied some and not others. I think before someone tries to denigrate another writing which others hold as important, sacred, spiritual that one read it with an open heart and not a mind devoted on proving it wrong.

[ROMANWKT]

I humbly disagree duck. There were specific prophetic events that had to occur in a sequence. One of them was the complete removal of Israel as a nation, then for it to come back as if from the dead, that happened in 1948 after nearly 2000 years of not being a nation. That is a miracle. Then there are the last generation prophecies which are all falling into place. Of course Christians throughout the ages have been looking for the last days because they want to go home and sadly this world is not a great place for most Christians spiritually speaking. It's far easier to enjoy this world if one is of this world and doing well in it. Once someone is reborn with a heart of Messiah, they are no longer of this world, and it's quite an uncomfortable place to be, but one can learn to adapt.

I appreciate your sharing, we just disagree on some stuff.

Hi Unified Serenity
I would not call that " A miracle " I would call that genocide and mass murder.

Regards
roman

[GCS1103]

I humbly disagree duck. There were specific prophetic events that had to occur in a sequence. One of them was the complete removal of Israel as a nation, then for it to come back as if from the dead, that happened in 1948 after nearly 2000 years of not being a nation. That is a miracle. Then there are the last generation prophecies which are all falling into place. Of course Christians throughout the ages have been looking for the last days because they want to go home and sadly this world is not a great place for most Christians spiritually speaking. It's far easier to enjoy this world if one is of this world and doing well in it. Once someone is reborn with a heart of Messiah, they are no longer of this world, and it's quite an uncomfortable place to be, but one can learn to adapt.

I appreciate your sharing, we just disagree on some stuff.

Hi Unified Serenity
I would not call that " A miracle " I would call that genocide and mass murder.

Regards
roman

Roman-
I'm not surprised that you would categorize this as genocide and mass murder. I believe you have always made it quite clear what your feelings about Israel and Jews are. As the saying goes..."whatever floats your boat", Roman.

[truthseekerdan]

The world we live in is not the world we know. There is another world hidden behind the reality of the world we manifest within our consciousness. If we penetrate one, we must penetrate both in order to find meaning and balance. And if we have found meaning and balance in our lives, we have found unconditional love. Unconditional love is incapable of asking for anything. It can be defined as a dynamic force that embraces and transforms all things. It is a profound feeling of benevolence in the deepest and most unconditional sense, not as an emotional connection but as an energy that intrinsically unifies the mind and spirit to embrace within its transforming power, the complete spectrum of human experience.

Once we experience an unconditional quality of love directly, it is not contingent upon anything external or separate from our essential self. To know our essential self we must be able to release all negative energy patterns, including fear, into an unconditional quality that will allow us to feel balanced. This is an inner kind of balance that cannot be described; it must be experienced for there is a gap between what we can experience and what can be understood and conveyed in words.


...
Unconditional love in my understanding means exactly that ---that is without condition.
If you love God with all your heart in any non Christian tradition I believe that is enough.
If you love God then obviously you also love Christ as He is God.
...

Chris

Hi Chris,

To love God in any belief, tradition or denomination is actually to love others as much as you love yourself. :nod:

-- Galatians 5:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5:14&version=CEV)

Much Love To All

[ROMANWKT]

Hi GCS1103

You must be Jewish then, and the answer to you is that what would really float my boat is the Jewish people look hard and fast as to how they got the state of Israel in the first place, dump 40 million people into the desert take over and then slowly eliminate them, does that sound like a biblical miracle to you???? I have nothing against Jews, thats your view of me perhaps.

Regards as ever

roman

[GCS1103]

Hi GCS1103

You must be Jewish then, and the answer to you is that what would really float my boat is the Jewish people look hard and fast as to how they got the state of Israel in the first place, dump 40 million people into the desert take over and then slowly eliminate them, does that sound like a biblical miracle to you???? I have nothing against Jews, thats your view of me perhaps.

Regards as ever

roman

Yes, Roman, I am Jewish. Did you forget about the enslavement of the entire nation of ancient Israel around 721 B.C.? Would you characterize that as mass genocide, or is that just an historical event that's acceptable. I learned a while ago that arguing and debating with certain people about this subject is a total waste of time. There is no winner. You will never convince me, nor will I ever convince you, that our thinking is faulty. That's the beauty of this forum, anyone can spout out whatever they want. Agreed?

[ROMANWKT]

Hi again GCS1103

Most of history and the bibles chronology is a lie, its been proven over and over, what was done at that time was not right, it was wrong, and such thing done to a nation and its people is wrong and that's it period. there is no argument between you and me because I am not arguing, I am telling of what we know.

To say to me what had happened to people so long ago, and to do the same thing yourself is what I am bringing up here, and you had it done to you in WW2, does not mean you do to others as they did to you, that's where we here on this forum find acceptable. this is not a matter of making me understand you, or a misunderstanding on my or your part. that not how we as a human race should be, but event are made this way without your permission, and here we are. Do not take this personal, its has nothing to do with that, this is an ongoing process world wide with all countries involved, without our permission and support, you and me have very little to do with going on, but its going on, I don't care who you are or what country you come from, my questioning the behavior of its doing would be the same, think what is right, don't support wrong.

regards
roman

[observer]

The major problem within this thread is this:


Most of the Biblical supporters are commenting from a faith-based perspective.

While most of those speaking against the validity of the Bible are commenting from a factual perspective.

The point that very little of what the Bible reflects as factual history can be verified by actual historic events, as revealed in archaeological discoveries, is the basis for any critically thinking individual to question the factual accuracy of the Bible.


Allowing faith to guide your belief systems IS NOT what Avalon is about.
Following the evidence - regardless of where it leads - is the purpose of the Avalon Forum.


I will offer several more links, beyond the many I've already offered, for those wishing to follow the evidence.

What was the Persian Empire, and what were they all about?
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/08/iran-archaeology/del-giudice-text/1
Take careful note of the first paragraph of this article. (By all means, read the entire article)
Try to imagine how and where there was any mistreatment of Hebrews within the context of this Persian empire.


Watch, further, this documentary on the history of the Persian Empire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP9bmTstvR4
Pay particular attention to what is said at 6 min: 11 sec. Keep in mind this Persian Empire is the very Empire depicted in the Old Testament as the Babylonian Captivity.


And, finally, with regard to the current off-topic debate regarding the validly of the "right" of the Israeli State to exit, watch this video regarding the source and heritage of the Zionist movement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66zOgVAnIgE&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLD1C9CBE40E6FCFDC
Allow the playlist to continue thru to the end.

[RedeZra]

Watch, further, this documentary on the history of the Persian Empire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP9bmTstvR4
Pay particular attention to what is said at 6 min: 11 sec. Keep in mind this Persian Empire is the very Empire depicted in the Old Testament as the Babylonian Captivity.



the Babylonian captivity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Captivity) ended because Cyrus the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great) the founder of the Achaemenid Persian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire) conquered a successor of Nebuchadnezzar II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II) and the Neo-Babylonian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Babylonian_Empire)

Cyrus the Great let the Jews go home and rebuild the Second Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_temple)

[RedeZra]

I suppose where I have a concern is that is implied that The Bible is the only book that carries the word of God.

What about the Bagavadgita and the Koran just to mention two?


good question Chris

who was the inspiration behind the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran ?


spirits

they are playing with us

[RedeZra]

Beckford's work goes a long way in presenting evidence the Bible is the clever manipulation by hyperdimensional entities, through the skillful use of mental telepathy for the purpose of enslaving the soul of the Human species - an objective interpretation of the mass of evidence to this conclusion.



every major and minor religion has been inspired by hyperdimensional entities or spirits

also the Bible

which is inspired by the Spirit or God

[crested-duck]

The following found here: http://www.ucadia.com/uca/u01/010400.htm

The journey of UCA







On so many levels humans live such isolated lives from one another. Separate houses, separate friends, neighborhoods, jobs, titles, and incomes. Separate seats, separate cars, train carriages. Separate desks, separate beliefs, separate ideas.







Yet what if we could find common ground? What if I could find unity between the belief systems that separate Moslem and Jew? What if you could re-discover the unity between the ideas of the East and west?, the links between Science and Religion?, the common genetic heritage between Caucasian and Negro?







Such unity presents such hope, yet remains so unrealistic in the isolated world in which we live.







The undeniable common sense hidden under labels







Yet what if re-looked at the wisdom embedded in the combined knowledge and ideas of humanity, the undeniable common sense? Then what if the labels that surround and cloud common sense were removed? such as the labels Science and Philosophy and then brought it together in one document?







This is the purpose of this web site, a collection of the common sense of humanity regarding answers to the timeless and essential questions of who, or what created the Universe? Why was the Universe created? For what purpose does it operate?







This web site answers these questions and links these answers from the beginning of the Universe, the formation of galaxies and planets, the beginning of the first life forms on Earth, through to you the individual reading this book.







Ucadia.com describes the synergies and beautiful simplicity that exists between objects all around us, that cycles and patterns occur at every level- that they are the same patterns







Bringing people together







When removed from their ownership and their labels, these pieces of wisdom shine when connected to the wisdom and common sense of former enemies. The wisdom of the East helps make sense of the common sense of the west. The philosophy helps understand the science.







That is why this web site does not label each and every piece of common sense as "mine", "yours" or "theirs". There is no line drawn between what understandings emerge now, versus common sense and wisdom that is thousands of years old.







For rather than seeking to isolate certain people and ideas, this web site seeks to highlight the common sense that exists between all of humanity- common sense that once revealed and structured shows that everyone is right and wrong to some degree

[RedeZra]

there will be peace and unity

when the devil and his spirits

are cast into the lake of fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_of_fire)

together with his human servants


but before that

the Great tribulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Tribulation)


the devil is defeated already

he just doesn't know it yet

[RedeZra]

the problem of evil

will vanish with the devil


and so will we if we are part of this problem


God did not destroy the devil right away

as God do not annihilate angels at the moment of mistake


God is good and long-suffering

and would want all to stop sinning


since sin separates us from God

[crested-duck]

Red, and all members----I have no axe to grind, just showing the other side of the coin and laying all the cards on the table for each to decide for themselves what they want to accept or believe as fact or fiction !!---Rob

[greybeard]

I suppose where I have a concern is that is implied that The Bible is the only book that carries the word of God.

What about the Bagavadgita and the Koran just to mention two?


good question Chris

who was the inspiration behind the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran ?


spirits

they are playing with us


Respectfully you are giving a personal opinion Red with no way of giving some evidence that this is so.

I could say the same of the Bible though I believe some parts of it escaped "alteration"
There is plenty evidence it has been changed by intent and mistranslation.

The early Vatican has a history of violence and was in charge of The Bible so commonsense would say that they were well up to portarying the word in a way that suited them, they used it to promote fear and control the population.

Honestly Red you sound as though you have been brainwashed by a fundamentalist group.
Obviously you have researched and read deeply but so do fundamentalists and they have caused a lot of friction and worse in the world.

Even approaching the whole subject with a rational, open mind would lead one to say of other non Christian paths Well I dont know the truth of it, they may or may not be correct in their belief, but at least they teach love of God and fellow man.

I have no doubt of your love and integrity Red I just think your view is a trifle narrow.

With love for you
Chris

[kreagle]

The major problem within this thread is this:


Most of the Biblical supporters are commenting from a faith-based perspective.

While most of those speaking against the validity of the Bible are commenting from a factual perspective.
The point that very little of what the Bible reflects as factual history can be verified by actual historic events, as revealed in archaeological discoveries, is the basis for any critically thinking individual to question the factual accuracy of the Bible.


Allowing faith to guide your belief systems IS NOT what Avalon is about.
Following the evidence - regardless of where it leads - is the purpose of the Avalon Forum.

I will offer several more links, beyond the many I've already offered, for those wishing to follow the evidence.

What was the Persian Empire, and what were they all about?
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/08/iran-archaeology/del-giudice-text/1
Take careful note of the first paragraph of this article. (By all means, read the entire article)
Try to imagine how and where there was any mistreatment of Hebrews within the context of this Persian empire.


Watch, further, this documentary on the history of the Persian Empire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP9bmTstvR4
Pay particular attention to what is said at 6 min: 11 sec. Keep in mind this Persian Empire is the very Empire depicted in the Old Testament as the Babylonian Captivity.


And, finally, with regard to the current off-topic debate regarding the validly of the "right" of the Israeli State to exit, watch this video regarding the source and heritage of the Zionist movement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66zOgVAnIgE&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLD1C9CBE40E6FCFDC
Allow the playlist to continue thru to the end.



observer,


Let's see,........"Faith-based" Perspective.....vs......"Factual" Perspective


Factual Perspective,.......from "whose" standards?,....."mankind's"? Are we talking about the same "mankind",.....(ie. scientists, astronomers, physicists,.....and the list goes on....), that "constantly" has to "update and revise" their information every "decade or so"? You want me,.....and others,......to unconditionally rely on "facts" that are constantly "evolving"?

(note to readers......)

Don't you just love it when the "intellectuals of this world" have "once again",......painted themselves into a corner,......and forced to admit that their "latest calculations,....or information" are wrong,....or need to be "updated,....or revised"?

And they do it with such impunity! Evidently they must have spent too much time on the "golf course",.......for they "expect" us to even grant them a "mulligan" in this "latest error",.....also!!

Of course,....."wisdom" tells us that,....."we all make mistakes",....right? Consequently, in wisdom,....we forgive them. We are then grateful to have "updated information" that hopefully is more reliable than the "former information". That' just the way it is folks! It's been that way since the "dawning of time",......and it's going to remain that way. Like it, or not,......that's "our lot in life",.....and we better just get use to it!


Now,....let's see, again,........Faith-Based,......or.......Factual based,......"perspective"?


Hebrews 11:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Also.......


Hebrews 10:37-39
King James Version (KJV)

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

(in conclusion)

observer,.......you sir,.....miss the point "entirely".

You declare that you perceive to know what "Avalon is about,.....and it's purpose"

My,....and other Avalonians, understanding is that,........Avalon is a place to "search out Truth",......and to share and discuss "all" avenues pertaining to this quest for Truth.

There are "areas and topics" on Avalon that I, personally, have no interest in,.....so consequently I stay away from them,.....and have "no comments" on them.

The "Bible" is NOT one of those topics. I have a great interest in IT!

You need to realize that "facts",.....do indeed,.....crumble, fall,.....and need to be periodically updated. It's because they are "manufactured",......man-made. There are "those" who say,......"Well science proves,......this, etc.",.....to which I reply,......NO,....it's our perception of science,....at that "current moment of time",.....that convinces us it "proves" the point. At another "point in time",.....down the road,......we come to the realization that "updated information",.....now,....."proves otherwise".

"Facts",......eventually require altering!

"Faith",......properly placed!,......will never let you down!!!


Love and Peace,........kreagle

[truthseekerdan]

“All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.”

-- Albert Einstein

One of the greatest fact that quantum physicist has discovered is the concept of oneness or of one being. Oneness is not actually a concept, which to be more accurate, it is being, the highest level of consciousness. If you can truly grasp this, you will understand that there is truly only one being, the Oneness which has chosen to individualize itself for the purposes of experiencing the differences.

So the difference between you and the person sitting next to you is just an illusion. The One individualized itself so that it could experience and discover itself; it couldn’t do it if it stays as one. We are all connected and that’s why before you hurt someone, think of the consequences; you are the very next person beside you. And this is how cause and effect comes into the scene, through interconnectedness. Understanding this concept will enable you to see how all things are connected and instead of seeing them as coincidence, you will accept them as miracle. You synchronize all the things that happen in your life even things that does not seem to please you.

Read more here (http://www.abundancedecoded.com/quantum-physics-back-to-the-cause.html)

[RedeZra]

I suppose where I have a concern is that is implied that The Bible is the only book that carries the word of God.

What about the Bagavadgita and the Koran just to mention two?


good question Chris

who was the inspiration behind the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran ?


spirits

they are playing with us


Respectfully you are giving a personal opinion Red with no way of giving some evidence that this is so.




yes but it is an informed opinion


God sent His Son for the whole world

and it is always Jesus who comes through to help and heal people today


where are the testimonies about Allah Krishna Buddha ?

[greybeard]

The ultimate Truth is "Only God is"

Jesus pointed to it when he said "I am the way"
Each seeming individual can say without fear of contradiction "I am" as in I exist.
As Dan and others pointed to, there is no division all are One.

Without disregarding Holy books including the Bible--- you will not find God in them -- they can only point to the Truth.
God is found within as testified to by Jesus--- The Father and I are One.
I cant debate the Bible but from personal experience I can say that the Love arose with me when healing others.
I did not do it but I felt it within before the healing happened.
Of myself I do nothing.
Every healing was asked for through the Grace of God.
I am Kundalini awakened by that Grace ( The Devil does not do healing, why would he. He likes pain and misery)

Its possible to know the Bible or other Holy books off by heart but "Even the wisest of my disciples enter the kingdom by faith alone. Jesus said if I remember correctly.
Millions of all faiths got sober in AA by surrendering their will to the will of God-- I know Im one.
Step 3 of AA "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him"
11th step of AA
"Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will and the power to carry that out."
12th step
"Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps we tried to carry the message to alcoholics and to practise these principals in all our affairs."

Every sober alcoholic is a walking miracle and by the Grace of God I am sober a day at a time.

Chris

[heyokah]

****

Truth - Believe .... Fact - Faith


What is Truth? .... Or when is something Truth?
When just one individual believes something to be true, that alone does not make it false.


Is Religion a positive or necessary force in our lives, or a dangerous and outmoded delusion?
Succinctly put, religion can be defined as hope without evidence.... Faith without Fact


"... in science there is no 'knowledge', in the sense in which Plato and Aristotle understood the word, in the sense which implies finality; in science, we never have sufficient reason for the belief that we have attained the truth. ...
This view means, furthermore, that we have no proofs in science (excepting, of course, pure mathematics and logic).
In the empirical sciences, which alone can furnish us with information about the world we live in, proofs do not occur, if we mean by 'proof' an argument which establishes once and for ever the truth of a theory."

Sir Karl Popper, The Problem of Induction, 1953



"To Believe or Not To Believe....That Is The Question...."

****

http://i46.tinypic.com/11cba6r.jpg

[greybeard]

I suppose where I have a concern is that is implied that The Bible is the only book that carries the word of God.

What about the Bagavadgita and the Koran just to mention two?


good question Chris

who was the inspiration behind the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran ?


spirits

they are playing with us


Respectfully you are giving a personal opinion Red with no way of giving some evidence that this is so.




yes but it is an informed opinion


God sent His Son for the whole world

and it is always Jesus who comes through to help and heal people today


where are the testimonies about Allah Krishna Buddha ?

Respectfully Red
I think everyone who has contributed to your thread has an informed opinion.
It is always God who heals or saves--- so as Jesus and God are one there is no contradiction on those who call on another name of God for healing or saving--- its all One.

With Love
Chris

[observer]

Watch, further, this documentary on the history of the Persian Empire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP9bmTstvR4
Pay particular attention to what is said at 6 min: 11 sec. Keep in mind this Persian Empire is the very Empire depicted in the Old Testament as the Babylonian Captivity.



the Babylonian captivity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Captivity) ended because Cyrus the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great) the founder of the Achaemenid Persian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire) conquered a successor of Nebuchadnezzar II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II) and the Neo-Babylonian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Babylonian_Empire)

Cyrus the Great let the Jews go home and rebuild the Second Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_temple)

As a note to the historic record, it was a Babylonian King, Amel-Marduk, the son and successor of Nebuchadnezzar II, who released King Jeconiah from prison in Babylon, and, after his release, Jeconiah never return to Judah

Once again, Red, you missed the point completely....

The Babylonian Empire occupied much of the same territory as the Persian Empire. In fact, many scholars include the Neo-Babylonian Empire (sometimes called the Chaldean Empire) into the early period of the Persian Empire. We're only speaking of a span of fourty years, here.

It would be similar to saying National Socialism began in Germany with Hitler. We all know and understand the National Socialist movement has its roots in the German elite culture in the mid eighteen hundreds, long before Hitler.

What were the principals and philosophies of the Persian Empire? Were they the same well accepted philosophies within the Chaldean (Babylonian) Empire?

[See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoiachin) - scroll-down to Jeconiah's reign]
"The intention was to take high class Judean captives and assimilate them into Babylonian society. On March 15/16th, 597 BCE, Jeconiah, his entire household and three thousand prestigious Jews, were exiled to Babylon."
The Hebrews brought the Babylonian Captivity on themselves by revolting. In the beginning, it was only King Jeconiah and some of the elite of Judah.

I'm not saying the captivity was the right thing to do, I'm saying the Bible got the understanding twisted. The Babylonian Captivity turned ugly for the nation of Judah because the populace revolted. That's what happens to populations in Empire Building. It's not about the "poor suffering Jews". It's about what they brought onto themselves.

And thus, because you can only see the Biblical side of the story, your perspective is all misconstrued, also....

I keep showing you the evidence that the Old Testament is a fabrication of reality, and you continue to reject that evidence because it doesn't fit your paradigm.

Faith v. Fact.... fact prevails every time.

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Beckford's work goes a long way in presenting evidence the Bible is the clever manipulation by hyperdimensional entities, through the skillful use of mental telepathy for the purpose of enslaving the soul of the Human species - an objective interpretation of the mass of evidence to this conclusion.


every major and minor religion has been inspired by hyperdimensional entities or spirits

also the Bible

which is inspired by the Spirit or God


EXACYLY my point, Red.


....and, that Spirit of God represented in the Old Testament is not who you think he is:



"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."


You've been hoodwinked, Red....

[GCS1103]

I think everyone here makes good points and arguments for their beliefs, based on their studies and research. Spirituality is such a personal and sensitive subject, yet I find that everyone who contributes here does so with respect for each other. Well, maybe some get a little frustrated by Red,;) but he comes here with love and what better motive is there than that? Personally, I have great respect for the posts that you all take time to write and I read them all. There is something about this thread that I find gratifying- even with all the different belief systems we have. Maybe because at the heart of it all, there is a common theme that loving and caring about one another is of the utmost importance.

[gripreaper]

I keep showing you the evidence that the Old Testament is a fabrication of reality, and you continue to reject that evidence because it doesn't fit your paradigm.

Which is why I no longer engage Red. He wont look at the facts. His paradigm is absolute, and there is no room in an absolute belief paradigm for the truth.

[Unified Serenity]

Oh, I dunno, I think Red is a good representative of a large portion of bible believers. He and I are rarely in a lot of agreement, but I respect him and appreciate our exchanges. It's rather pleasent to have a discussion with him even if we disagree.

[kreagle]

observer,

Either you haven't read my post, (#1426),.... and reply to you,.....or you've chosen to ignore it.

If you have chosen the latter,......that will be "your" loss,.......not mine.



I have not always agreed with "RedeZra" on certain Biblical issues,....and I've made that perfectly clear to him on this particular "thread". However,....on "this issue",.....where he has proclaimed that,....."the Bible is inspired by the Spirit, or God",.....I will stand solidly in his corner, in complete agreement. (note: RedeZra's post is #1420, regarding this,......and I, kreagle, stand as the lone "thank you" to his short proclamation.)



2 Peter 1:20-21
King James Version (KJV)

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

First, and foremost, observer,.....God does not give you,...or your "theologian of choice" His permission to "privately interpret" His Word,....to fit YOUR "paradigm"!


You, observer, and your "theologian of choice" claim that,..... either "portions", or perhaps "all",.....of the Old Testament have proven to be,...." a fabrication of reality",....and that someone, other than God,.....is It's author. You go on to say that you've got,......."facts"!

This would be an "excellent place" for you to read my post (#1426),.....concerning the "constantly evolving nature",......of "facts". If you say that "they" don't evolve,....and periodically require "updating",.....then you have been an extremely "poor student" involving the "observation" of mankind.

Here is "another" Scriptural warning for mankind to "not" get too carried away with "his facts"


Proverbs 14:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.


observer,.....I have shared,...(on more than one occasion),.....my personal "experience" in "my own upper room" 31 years ago,.....where I, too, was filled with the Holy Ghost and "born again" of the water and the Spirit. You and your "theologian" have come entirely too late,.....to tell me that His Word is "faulty" and altered. My "experience" has made me a "new creature", in Christ Jesus. Since then,.... My understanding of His Word has "blown away", even, my wildest imagination. His Spirit is an excellent Teacher,....."if" you will allow Him to teach you!


(in conclusion)


"Observers",.......elevate themselves,......they watch,........they "observe"

"Believers",........"abase" themselves,......they "obey",.......then they "experience"


It's always been that way!,.......I sincerely hope you don't "watch" your "experience",....."slip away"!


Love and Peace,.......kreagle

[kreagle]

error in posting,......deleted by kreagle

[observer]

observer,

Either you haven't read my post, (#1426),.... and reply to you,.....or you've chosen to ignore it.


kreagle, my delusional friend,

I have read your post #1426, along with most of your other comments in this thread, and I have chosen to ignore them.

Your point regarding science being in an ever changing flux is exactly the point of science.

The world was once flat and the center of the universe. Anyone who didn't believe that was burned at the stake by the very church that created this false dogma, the Bible.

....Which is the impression I get when I read one of your comments - that if you had your way, anyone who speaks-out as I am doing in this thread, should be burned at the stake.

Your ranting-on, much like a zealot priest at an inquisition, bears no evidence other than the hear-say of your personal testimony. Which, by the way, looks very much like the parking lot down at Al the Appliance King's annual blow-out sale day, with an overabundance of red, white, and blue pennant flags. After reading one of your comments, I'm left with the question, "what is this guy trying to sell"?

My debate with Red is regarding the validity of the Bible as "God's Word".

The evidence I provide is proof enough the words in this book have been cleverly manipulated to enslave the Masses. This is the agenda of the Bible. Have you even listened to any of the videos I've posted?

Your continued rambling-on espousing Bible verses is no proof, or evidence that those verses were not the clever manipulation of an hyperdimensional telepathic thought control agenda.

Other than your faith in this dogma, what proof do you offer that these words are the word of God.... And, what proof do you offer the God of the Old Testament is not some sort of demigod, as Yeshua ben Joseph taught in his mission? Have you studied the books that were banned from the Bible. They were discovered in the desert of Egypt at Nag Hammadi in 1945 after nearly two thousand years of unmolested rest.

How many translations, transliterations, edits, redactions, modifications, deletions, rewrites, does the book you call "The Word of God" have attached to it?

When you have reviewed the evidence I have offered in the past, and when you have calmed-down your writing style, I may pay some attention to what you have to say....

[kreagle]

observer,

Either you haven't read my post, (#1426),.... and reply to you,.....or you've chosen to ignore it.


kreagle, my delusional friend,

I have read your post #1426, along with most of your other comments in this thread, and I have chosen to ignore them.

Your point regarding science being in an ever changing flux is exactly the point of science.

The world was once flat and the center of the universe. Anyone who didn't believe that was burned at the stake by the very church that created this false dogma, the Bible.

....Which is the impression I get when I read one of your comments - that if you had your way, anyone who speaks-out as I am doing in this thread, should be burned at the stake.

Your ranting-on, much like a zealot priest at an inquisition, bears no evidence other than the hear-say of your personal testimony. Which, by the way, looks very much like the parking lot down at Al the Appliance King's annual blow-out sale day, with an overabundance of red, white, and blue pennant flags. After reading one of your comments, I'm left with the question, "what is this guy trying to sell"?

My debate with Red is regarding the validity of the Bible as "God's Word".

The evidence I provide is proof enough the words in this book have been cleverly manipulated to enslave the Masses. This is the agenda of the Bible. Have you even listened to any of the videos I've posted?

Your continued rambling-on espousing Bible verses is no proof, or evidence that those verses were not the clever manipulation of an hyperdimensional telepathic thought control agenda.

Other than your faith in this dogma, what proof do you offer that these words are the word of God.... And, what proof do you offer the God of the Old Testament is not some sort of demigod, as Yeshua ben Joseph taught in his mission? Have you studied the books that were banned from the Bible. They were discovered in the desert of Egypt at Nag Hammadi in 1945 after nearly two thousand years of unmolested rest.

How many translations, transliterations, edits, redactions, modifications, deletions, rewrites, does the book you call "The Word of God" have attached to it?

When you have reviewed the evidence I have offered in the past, and when you have calmed-down your writing style, I may pay some attention to what you have to say....


observer, my "unbelieving friend",

I won't spend a great deal of time, here, with my response,......for it is painfully clear to me that you've pretty much "made up your mind" and convinced yourself that there is NO GOD. Before you charge me with,....."putting words in your mouth",......you need to take a look, again, at your overall statements. When you proclaim that we are all being deceived by this,......"false dogma, the Bible",......then you are, in reality, denying the very existence of God. To deny one,....."His Word",.....is to deny the other,......"HIM",.......for the "TWO are inseparable".

I was not speaking of "science", only,.....in reference to its "changing flux". I've made that clear in my post. "All" facts,......ultimately "crowned so by man",......are subject to being "periodically updated" as deemed necessary. I fully understand that there a "few" classifications of "facts" that have stood firm for a great deal of time. However,.....as soon as "we" are foolishly inclined to "set them in granite",.....("they" have reached the infallible state in "our" minds),....suddenly,....."new data" appears on the horizon,.....and we are, once again, required to "alter our thinking" and update our files. We,.....are human,.....after all!

"If" you are feeling any "potential heat" from an "imaginary burning at the stake",.....then you might want to seek out the "source" of where this heat is "coming from"! I have never belonged to,.... or a member of,.... the "church" who has such a documented history of such atrocities against mankind,....so it's not me. It certainly sounds more plausible that the "heat" you may be currently feeling is in "direct correlation" to your stance,.....that being the elimination of God and His Word. I "prayerfully" hope that you will "wake up" soon and take advantage of the "mercy of God",.....NOW,.....before the "heat" becomes a reality,.....LATER!

The "just" shall live by "faith".


As "always",......Love and Peace,.........kreagle


Edit: (point for consideration)

observer,

Unfortunately,....we all have "foxhole" moments in life, where things really go awry in our personal lives. That's just life,.....and it's during "those times" that we really,.....desperately need,.....deep down help that can be totally relied upon. I have supplied a link from a "previous post", here on Avalon,.....dealing with this very same subject. I prayerfully request that you click on it,.....read it,.....and simply to consider it.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43906-Do-you-believe-in-God&p=470618#post470618


I am "not" your enemy, my friend!


I am your "servant",...........kreagle

[trenairio]

[edit][edit][edit]

[Beren]

I used to be a devout Catholic, even an altar server. But then I decided it wasn't for me.


:)

There is a profound difference being a devoted Catholic or any other church on Earth member -from being Christian.
Being Christian is not belonging to religion...

Your decision that it`s not for you has probably been the best thing to happen to you regarding finding God...
Just be strong and develop the relationship with God and Christ,allow holy spirit to change you on better and grow in love and understanding.

Against Love there is no law.

Test every spirit.

[observer]

[....snip]
observer, my "unbelieving friend",

I won't spend a great deal of time, here, with my response,......for it is painfully clear to me that you've pretty much "made up your mind" and convinced yourself that there is NO GOD.
[....snip]


Nor, kreagle, will I spend a great deal of time. Presumption is the father of delusion.

Simply because I have presented evidence showing Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament is not the "One True God" of Yeshua ben Joseph, you presume that I have no faith in God. It would be more accurate to state, I have no faith in your god.

I believe in the God of Unconditional Love as ministered to by Yeshua and the Nazarene Essenes and later understood by the Cathar as Amor.

The Cathar also believed your god of the Old Testament, Yahweh, was what they referred to as Rex Mundi, The King of the World.

You see kreagle, I've studied far beyond the limits of your Roman sponsored Bible. That's something Fundamentalist Christians will not do. "Eating from the Tree of Knowledge" is explicitly prohibited by the dogma of the Roman sponsored Bible, and expressly forbidden by Rex Mundi.

The early Christians were annihilated from the planet for possessing a knowledge taught by Yeshua ben Joseph and his Nazarene Essene followers. As a self proclaimed believer in the Word of Jesus, you should do yourself a favor and seek-out the knowledge the individual behind the Jesus Story actually taught.

I've studied the branches of true Christianity that followed the words of Yeshua ben Joseph. Those are the documents that were excluded from the Roman Bible.

As I've stated, the God of the Old Testament is ol'Rex Mundi himself. Your Un-holy bible is the true heresy.

The God I believe in is the God of Unconditional Love who makes no such promise of an eternal lake of fire....

[gripreaper]

When you proclaim that we are all being deceived by this,......"false dogma, the Bible",......then you are, in reality, denying the very existence of God. To deny one,....."His Word",.....is to deny the other,......"HIM",.......for the "TWO are inseparable".

..kreagle

This absolutely astounds me. The Archonic, murderous, controlling, earthly demigod's of the bible are somehow the unconditional loving creator god of the cosmos? And this god is inseparable from the Archon's playbook of terror the bible?

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg62/scaled.php?server=62&filename=disappointment.gif&res=landing

I'm sorry. I don't know why I come to this thread at all...

[greybeard]

[....snip]
observer, my "unbelieving friend",

I won't spend a great deal of time, here, with my response,......for it is painfully clear to me that you've pretty much "made up your mind" and convinced yourself that there is NO GOD.
[....snip]


Nor, kreagle, will I spend a great deal of time. Presumption is the father of delusion.

Simply because I have presented evidence showing Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament is not the "One True God" of Yeshua ben Joseph, you presume that I have no faith in God. It would be more accurate to state, I have no faith in your god.

I believe in the God of Unconditional Love as ministered to by Yeshua and the Nazarene Essenes and later understood by the Cathar as Amor.

The Cathar also believed your god of the Old Testament, Yahweh, was what they referred to as Rex Mundi, The King of the World.

You see kreagle, I've studied far beyond the limits of your Roman sponsored Bible. That's something Fundamentalist Christians will not do. "Eating from the Tree of Knowledge" is explicitly prohibited by the dogma of the Roman sponsored Bible, and expressly forbidden by Rex Mundi.

The early Christians were annihilated from the planet for possessing a knowledge taught by Yeshua ben Joseph and his Nazarene Essene followers. As a self proclaimed believer in the Word of Jesus, you should do yourself a favor and seek-out the knowledge the individual behind the Jesus Story actually taught.

I've studied the branches of true Christianity that followed the words of Yeshua ben Joseph. Those are the documents that were excluded from the Roman Bible.

As I've stated, the God of the Old Testament is ol'Rex Mundi himself. Your Un-holy bible is the true heresy.

The God I believe in is the God of Unconditional Love who makes no such promise of an eternal lake of fire....


Hi Observer
I find this post of yours to be spot on, concise and to the point.

I suspect that most fundamentalists did not come to their conclusions on their own but as part of a Bible study group where they were guided to their conclusions--- subtly brain washed.
Then being part of a group that claims to know the truth it is very hard not to dismiss any evidence that you believe a fallacy.
Its typical ego--- We are superior we are Gods chosen, we are the elect etc---powerful stuff but very divisive.

The little I know I found out for myself through many books and teachers--- always careful to cross check and to look for a core message that transcended time and the various teachers.

My researched, tried and tested belief is that God is "Unconditional Love "

Chris

[truthseekerdan]

Most religions preach love, and yet, their purpose is to confuse and misinform people for two reasons: money and the power of manipulating people. Their tool is frequently fear, which they induce to get control. For example, the Catholic Church removed reincarnation from the Bible and included Satan, so they could murder and torture people in the name of God and love, apparently 'fighting' Satan. Most wars are a direct consequence of religious 'brainwashing'.

All religions, cults, sects etc. are 'truly deceiving'. They have been created after great men (Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, etc.) died, by people with only 2 things in mind: 'money and power'. Religions are a 'true curse' on Earth, because they are the source of spiritual misinformation. They constipate people with fear, propaganda and rituals to the point that people stop thinking and follow the flock.

When you seek true love you do not go to a prostitute. When you truly seek God, you do not go to an institution that makes business by claiming to represent God. Do you think that God needs a proxy?
The most beautiful temple of man is within and has always been. To reach it you should meditate, and then concentrate (pray), which is different, although the two are usually confused by teachers. We should grow up, drop ridiculous rituals and stop following the flock, lead by those who take advantage of us.

The best physicists on Earth agree that everything material is just vibration, and it is actually temporary. The real stuff is our consciousness. People need a lot of effort to comprehend the Reality of the Universe. The evidence is overwhelming. We have eyes - but do we see?
There is no problem with duality: we are really eternal light beings undergoing lessons in physical bodies. The sole purpose of our physical existence is spiritual development. Anything that happens around us is a part of the lesson.

Our learning tool is our free will. We should use it to make a continuous series of choices in our life and watch their consequences. The aim is to understand the effects of our choices. If we mess up the lesson (don't learn) then we have to repeat the lesson in the next lifetime. If we are absolutely stubborn and do not want to learn, we eventually get destroyed and re-cycled as everything in nature.

"The Kingdom of God is within you" as it says in the Bible, which once upon a time contained lots of other good information. Unfortunately, many essential things were removed by priests who feared that people might become enlightened, fully independent and impossible to brainwash and control. Just imagine what would happen if people discovered that God doesn't need a proxy...

Read more here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?3079-Spirituality-vs-Religion

[heyokah]

observer, my "unbelieving friend",

I won't spend a great deal of time, here, with my response,......for it is painfully clear to me that you've pretty much "made up your mind" and convinced yourself that there is NO GOD. Before you charge me with,....."putting words in your mouth",......you need to take a look, again, at your overall statements. When you proclaim that we are all being deceived by this,......"false dogma, the Bible",......then you are, in reality, denying the very existence of God. To deny one,....."His Word",.....is to deny the other,......"HIM",.......for the "TWO are inseparable".

I was not speaking of "science", only,.....in reference to its "changing flux". I've made that clear in my post. "All" facts,......ultimately "crowned so by man",......are subject to being "periodically updated" as deemed necessary. I fully understand that there a "few" classifications of "facts" that have stood firm for a great deal of time. However,.....as soon as "we" are foolishly inclined to "set them in granite",.....("they" have reached the infallible state in "our" minds),....suddenly,....."new data" appears on the horizon,.....and we are, once again, required to "alter our thinking" and update our files. We,.....are human,.....after all!

"If" you are feeling any "potential heat" from an "imaginary burning at the stake",.....then you might want to seek out the "source" of where this heat is "coming from"! I have never belonged to,.... or a member of,.... the "church" who has such a documented history of such atrocities against mankind,....so it's not me. It certainly sounds more plausible that the "heat" you may be currently feeling is in "direct correlation" to your stance,.....that being the elimination of God and His Word. I "prayerfully" hope that you will "wake up" soon and take advantage of the "mercy of God",.....NOW,.....before the "heat" becomes a reality,.....LATER!

The "just" shall live by "faith".


As "always",......Love and Peace,.........kreagle


Edit: (point for consideration)

observer,

Unfortunately,....we all have "foxhole" moments in life, where things really go awry in our personal lives. That's just life,.....and it's during "those times" that we really,.....desperately need,.....deep down help that can be totally relied upon. I have supplied a link from a "previous post", here on Avalon,.....dealing with this very same subject. I prayerfully request that you click on it,.....read it,.....and simply to consider it.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43906-Do-you-believe-in-God&p=470618#post470618


I am "not" your enemy, my friend!


I am your "servant",...........kreagle


Dear Mr. Kreagle,

I have to admit, your arrogance is astonishing.....


I'm a woman without religion who believes in a God, out there and within ....

A God of Unconditional Love.

****

As I'm not a native speaker, nor a good writer I'll reply to you, for once and for all, with a blog posted by Austin Cline, called:




http://i48.tinypic.com/35l6jkl.jpg



Have you ever seen Christian bumper stickers that says something like "not perfect, just saved"? I suppose the owner imagines that this is an expression of humility for admitting that one isn't perfect, but the attempted humility fails because of the smug expression of superiority: "even if I'm not perfect, I'm still going to spend eternity in paradise while the rest of you losers will suffer an eternity of torment. So there!" Yet, it's atheists who are accused of being arrogant.

Some religious theists like to complain that atheists are increasingly arrogant towards religion and theism, but there is little conscious recognition of how arrogant religious theists themselves can be. This arrogance seems to stem from the belief that one is not only in possession of the Truth, but of a divinely provided Truth — these religious theists know the Truth and are convinced that part of their job is to help poor, deluded atheists find God's love for them.

Granted, everyone can be like this when they think they are right — even atheists — but there is a difference between simply thinking that you're right while others are mistaken and thinking that you possess an unmistakable, divinely provided truth such that others are willfully disobedient, in denial, or in league with Satan. Even the most arrogant possessor of a mundane truth about the natural world pales in comparison to a self-righteous religious believer convinced that they not only know the Will of God, but that everyone else would as well if they were only equally good and righteous.

In the process of such thinking, religious theists develop a tendency to make all sorts of arrogant assumptions about atheists, what atheists think, why they are atheists, and how best to approach atheists. Instead of asking questions and considering that they have good reasons for disbelieving in gods, atheists are treated as objects for evangelization whose own perspectives are unworthy of being heard.

Some believers don't seem to give any thought to the concerns of others:; their way is The Only Way, and even people who do not accept it are necessarily ruled by it, whether they like it or not. If they don't think that they are, then it is simply because they fail to acknowledge the existence or the sovereignty of the One True God. It's amazing that religious theists can accuse atheists of being "arrogant" even while having tolerated far more extreme arrogance in their own ranks for decades — if not millennia.

http://atheism.about.com/od/liberationatheology/ig/Unapologetics-Posters/Unapologetics--Arrogance-.htm

****

To me, a man/woman without religion is like a fish without bicycle ....

[kreagle]

[....snip]
observer, my "unbelieving friend",

I won't spend a great deal of time, here, with my response,......for it is painfully clear to me that you've pretty much "made up your mind" and convinced yourself that there is NO GOD.
[....snip]


Nor, kreagle, will I spend a great deal of time. Presumption is the father of delusion.

Simply because I have presented evidence showing Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament is not the "One True God" of Yeshua ben Joseph, you presume that I have no faith in God. It would be more accurate to state, I have no faith in your god.

I believe in the God of Unconditional Love as ministered to by Yeshua and the Nazarene Essenes and later understood by the Cathar as Amor.

The Cathar also believed your god of the Old Testament, Yahweh, was what they referred to as Rex Mundi, The King of the World.

You see kreagle, I've studied far beyond the limits of your Roman sponsored Bible. That's something Fundamentalist Christians will not do. "Eating from the Tree of Knowledge" is explicitly prohibited by the dogma of the Roman sponsored Bible, and expressly forbidden by Rex Mundi.

The early Christians were annihilated from the planet for possessing a knowledge taught by Yeshua ben Joseph and his Nazarene Essene followers. As a self proclaimed believer in the Word of Jesus, you should do yourself a favor and seek-out the knowledge the individual behind the Jesus Story actually taught.

I've studied the branches of true Christianity that followed the words of Yeshua ben Joseph. Those are the documents that were excluded from the Roman Bible.

As I've stated, the God of the Old Testament is ol'Rex Mundi himself. Your Un-holy bible is the true heresy.

The God I believe in is the God of Unconditional Love who makes no such promise of an eternal lake of fire....


observer,

I think it's safe to say that you are alluding to the "fact" that....."your god",......is not the same as......"my God",.......to which I concur completely.

"My God",....whose name is Jesus,......went to the cross,....died for "our" sins,.....resurrected in 3 days,.....and, consequently, dwells "in me" as the Comforter.

"Your god",...certainly didn't do that for you!,.....nor anyone else!


You state, that, you are a "believer, of sorts", in that you proclaim,......."I believe in the God of Unconditional Love". I believe you refer to him as,......"Amor".

To this I ask,..(as Paul "equally asked" in Acts 19:1-7),....."have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?"

Does your,....."unconditional loving god....Amor",......make that available to you?

Oh, I'm sure there is a "spirit" that guides you, my friend,......but in what "direction"?

observer,....you asked me earlier in post #1438,......"Other than your faith in this dogma, what proof do you offer that these words are the word of God...."

I've already alluded to this "proof" earlier,.....when I stated.......

"Observers",.........."observe"

"Believers",..........."experience"

My "experience", in receiving the Holy Ghost,......was "all the proof I needed"!

Malachi 3:10,....God informs us that it's acceptable to,...."prove Me".....as in "put Me to the test". If we will put our "faith" in Him,....He will "prove Himself" to you within "no question of doubt"!! Be not deceived, though,....for it will necessitate the deployment of "your faith",......which we "all have",...."as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" (Romans 12:3)

When "we" do our part and......show up, by faith,....."He" will do His part and.......show up, in His Spirit. He will not be a "no show"!!


In an effort to be......."perfectly clear".......let me say "this" about the infilling of the Holy Ghost,.......

I am, in no way,.....talking about a "mind over matter" situation here when I refer to being filled with God's Spirit,....the Holy Ghost. I say "this" because that's how a lot of people see, or view, this Spiritual phenomena. I'm sad to say that many "seekers", (present and past), satisfy themselves with a "mind over matter" version of this. In reality,... they can receive the "genuine experience" of being filled with the Holy Ghost,.....by simply surrendering totally to God,....and then applying their "faith" in His Word.

A "genuine experience" of being filled with the Holy Ghost involves "speaking in other tongues",.....as the Spirit gives the utterance,....."every time"!

A full discourse is given in James 3:1-11,....about the deadly "power of the tongue",..and it's destructive "nature". No one, amongst us, can make the claim that their "tongue", (or mouth), hasn't gotten them in more trouble than they could possibly get out of! This is why,....in the wisdom of God,....we must "surrender our tongue" to Him. "Unconditional surrender",.....(and that involves the "tongue", too!),....are the "terms of true Biblical repentance". The "tongue" will be the last thing you will "turn over to Him",.......that's "if" you are "ALL IN",....or "sold out" to God!!


I, kreagle,....."unconditionally surrendered" to God,...on Jan. 30, 1981,....(at the age of 26 years old),.......and was baptized in the name of our God,...JESUS,...for the remission of my sins.(see post#1381)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35019-the-Bible&p=516670#post516670

Twenty-three days later,....on Feb. 22, 1981,.....I received the Holy Ghost,....with the evidence of speaking in "other tongues",.....( another language I never had previously known or learned),....(whether it was Spanish,...German,....French,....I don't know).

I, now,....had finally learned and "experienced" what it was like to be "genuinely filled" with God's Spirit,....the Holy Ghost. I was, now,...truly "born again"......of the water and the Spirit! Jesus even spoke about this "event",....that I was now experiencing,.....from a prophetic standpoint.

John 7:37-39
King James Version (KJV)

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


(in conclusion)

observer,

When I, kreagle,.....showed up by "faith",.....and "unconditionally surrendered" to our God......

Then our God, whose name is Jesus,.......showed up in "His Spirit",.....and "unconditionally became my God"!!

He,......lovingly and anxiously,.....awaits for the "next",......"unconditional surrender"

I was "instructed" to ,......"prove Me",.....and I "did"!,....and He's proven to be everything and more than I could ever hope for!

Herein lies my "proof" that you've asked me to supply!


Love and Peace,....your servant,.........kreagle

[kreagle]

observer, my "unbelieving friend",

I won't spend a great deal of time, here, with my response,......for it is painfully clear to me that you've pretty much "made up your mind" and convinced yourself that there is NO GOD. Before you charge me with,....."putting words in your mouth",......you need to take a look, again, at your overall statements. When you proclaim that we are all being deceived by this,......"false dogma, the Bible",......then you are, in reality, denying the very existence of God. To deny one,....."His Word",.....is to deny the other,......"HIM",.......for the "TWO are inseparable".

I was not speaking of "science", only,.....in reference to its "changing flux". I've made that clear in my post. "All" facts,......ultimately "crowned so by man",......are subject to being "periodically updated" as deemed necessary. I fully understand that there a "few" classifications of "facts" that have stood firm for a great deal of time. However,.....as soon as "we" are foolishly inclined to "set them in granite",.....("they" have reached the infallible state in "our" minds),....suddenly,....."new data" appears on the horizon,.....and we are, once again, required to "alter our thinking" and update our files. We,.....are human,.....after all!

"If" you are feeling any "potential heat" from an "imaginary burning at the stake",.....then you might want to seek out the "source" of where this heat is "coming from"! I have never belonged to,.... or a member of,.... the "church" who has such a documented history of such atrocities against mankind,....so it's not me. It certainly sounds more plausible that the "heat" you may be currently feeling is in "direct correlation" to your stance,.....that being the elimination of God and His Word. I "prayerfully" hope that you will "wake up" soon and take advantage of the "mercy of God",.....NOW,.....before the "heat" becomes a reality,.....LATER!

The "just" shall live by "faith".


As "always",......Love and Peace,.........kreagle


Edit: (point for consideration)

observer,

Unfortunately,....we all have "foxhole" moments in life, where things really go awry in our personal lives. That's just life,.....and it's during "those times" that we really,.....desperately need,.....deep down help that can be totally relied upon. I have supplied a link from a "previous post", here on Avalon,.....dealing with this very same subject. I prayerfully request that you click on it,.....read it,.....and simply to consider it.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43906-Do-you-believe-in-God&p=470618#post470618


I am "not" your enemy, my friend!


I am your "servant",...........kreagle


Dear Mr. Kreagle,

I have to admit, your arrogance is astonishing.....


I'm a woman without religion who believes in a God, out there and within ....

A God of Unconditional Love.

****

As I'm not a native speaker, nor a good writer I'll reply to you, for once and for all, with a blog posted by Austin Cline, called:




http://i48.tinypic.com/35l6jkl.jpg



Have you ever seen Christian bumper stickers that says something like "not perfect, just saved"? I suppose the owner imagines that this is an expression of humility for admitting that one isn't perfect, but the attempted humility fails because of the smug expression of superiority: "even if I'm not perfect, I'm still going to spend eternity in paradise while the rest of you losers will suffer an eternity of torment. So there!" Yet, it's atheists who are accused of being arrogant.

Some religious theists like to complain that atheists are increasingly arrogant towards religion and theism, but there is little conscious recognition of how arrogant religious theists themselves can be. This arrogance seems to stem from the belief that one is not only in possession of the Truth, but of a divinely provided Truth — these religious theists know the Truth and are convinced that part of their job is to help poor, deluded atheists find God's love for them.

Granted, everyone can be like this when they think they are right — even atheists — but there is a difference between simply thinking that you're right while others are mistaken and thinking that you possess an unmistakable, divinely provided truth such that others are willfully disobedient, in denial, or in league with Satan. Even the most arrogant possessor of a mundane truth about the natural world pales in comparison to a self-righteous religious believer convinced that they not only know the Will of God, but that everyone else would as well if they were only equally good and righteous.

In the process of such thinking, religious theists develop a tendency to make all sorts of arrogant assumptions about atheists, what atheists think, why they are atheists, and how best to approach atheists. Instead of asking questions and considering that they have good reasons for disbelieving in gods, atheists are treated as objects for evangelization whose own perspectives are unworthy of being heard.

Some believers don't seem to give any thought to the concerns of others:; their way is The Only Way, and even people who do not accept it are necessarily ruled by it, whether they like it or not. If they don't think that they are, then it is simply because they fail to acknowledge the existence or the sovereignty of the One True God. It's amazing that religious theists can accuse atheists of being "arrogant" even while having tolerated far more extreme arrogance in their own ranks for decades — if not millennia.

http://atheism.about.com/od/liberationatheology/ig/Unapologetics-Posters/Unapologetics--Arrogance-.htm

****

To me, a man/woman without religion is like a fish without bicycle ....


My dear heyokah,

You did not completely specify in "your words" that you were an atheist,.....but your directive to me to "view your blog by Austin Cline,.....an avowed atheist",.....and the consequent "defense of atheism",....leaves me no choice but to believe that you are, indeed, an atheist,....too.

Prior to our conversation, here,.....which is a "first" between you and I,......you would be able to say,....with authority,....that there "is no such thing as a....."kreagle"! In your mind, you could justify that stance,....because you've,....never heard of me,....never seen me,.....so consequently I don't, or must not, exist! Of course, that "theory" would completely evaporate,....and has,....with our "meeting" here, hasn't it? You can no longer say that "kreagle" doesn't exist,.....for now you've officially met him!!

This "exact same scenario" applies to the atheist and his/her view of God,...the Lord Jesus Christ. My dear,...dear,...friend,....."you simply have not formally met, or been properly introduced, to Him,....yet. If you will simply get to the point in your life,....and activate the "faith" that God has place within you,.....you will find our Lord God, Jesus,...eagerly looking forward to "making your acquaintance"! Once you do,.....like I did,....you'll never,...ever,.....deny Him again! I promise!

I have no doubt, that the "link" I enclosed, dealing with "there are no atheists in foxholes",....has inflamed you. But dear,....the account and story I've shared there is "completely true",.......it "did" really happen,.....exactly as I reported! The "soul" knows who to call on in a desperate time of need. It will, indeed, call upon it's Maker!!

I hope things are going well with you in Holland.


With much love and peace,.....your servant,......kreagle

[greybeard]

Dear Kreagle I dont doubt your experiences.
The only point I and others are consistently making is that there is more than one way to God.
I could site examples in my life where through prayer to God the miraculous happened.
I prayed to God not to Jesus but as the two are one it does not make any difference in the end result.

Chris

[heyokah]

My dear heyokah,

You did not completely specify in "your words" that you were an atheist,.....but your directive to me to "view your blog by Austin Cline,.....an avowed atheist",.....and the consequent "defense of atheism",....leaves me no choice but to believe that you are, indeed, an atheist,....too.

Prior to our conversation, here,.....which is a "first" between you and I,......you would be able to say,....with authority,....that there "is no such thing as a....."kreagle"! In your mind, you could justify that stance,....because you've,....never heard of me,....never seen me,.....so consequently I don't, or must not, exist! Of course, that "theory" would completely evaporate,....and has,....with our "meeting" here, hasn't it? You can no longer say that "kreagle" doesn't exist,.....for now you've officially met him!!

This "exact same scenario" applies to the atheist and his/her view of God,...the Lord Jesus Christ. My dear,...dear,...friend,....."you simply have not formally met, or been properly introduced, to Him,....yet. If you will simply get to the point in your life,....and activate the "faith" that God has place within you,.....you will find our Lord God, Jesus,...eagerly looking forward to "making your acquaintance"! Once you do,.....like I did,....you'll never,...ever,.....deny Him again! I promise!

I have no doubt, that the "link" I enclosed, dealing with "there are no atheists in foxholes",....has inflamed you. But dear,....the account and story I've shared there is "completely true",.......it "did" really happen,.....exactly as I reported! The "soul" knows who to call on in a desperate time of need. It will, indeed, call upon it's Maker!!

I hope things are going well with you in Holland.


With much love and peace,.....your servant,......kreagle


Dear Mr. Kreagle,

Exactly this kind of talk will make me stay away as far as I can from any fundamentalist Christian, Muslim or Jew, or their religions.


This has nothing to do with the Unconditional Love my God has shown me when He brought me back from death and gave me my life again many years ago.

You know nothing about me, yet you arrogantly label me as an atheist (as if that would be something unworthy...... ever heard of "Love Thy Neighbour" ....?)
Yes, if there would only be YOUR angy god, I would prefer to be an atheist.

Thank God, there is a God of Undonditional Love, for us all to be found.....

So please stop preaching.

[Beren]

Dear Kreagle I dont doubt your experiences.
The only point I and others are consistently making is that there is more than one way to God.
I could site examples in my life where through prayer to God the miraculous happened.
I prayed to God not to Jesus but as the two are one it does not make any difference in the end result.

Chris


I know that you will understand this Chris but when you delve deeper or go higher you will always realize that there are only one way to God (Creator AKA Conscience of all life etc..) and the other way -away from God.
In reality all ways are ways to God since you cannot escape God for God is everywhere but for the sake of understanding soul , the only way towards God is the way of Love.

And it is rarely threaded path while the other one is broad .
Simply because when on Love path , you learn that you need to surrender everything on it, to give up all preconceived opinions and thoughts ,to basically give up life and die... and die in your old thought pattern since nothing really dies ,only transforms.

You then embrace Love as your guide towards God .

This is Christ's way.
And it rarely walked upon since majority cannot give up their ego and thought patterns of fear.

As Dr. Hawkins experienced ,he was at threshold of choice to fall into abyss of fear or let go ... He chose to let go and experienced life at fullest!
He chose to cast away Maya and embrace Love.

Christ was teaching this by saying "I am the way, follow me and I and Father are one".

Christ didn't say follow the people and their preconceived opinions,religions,groups and such. He said plain and clear- "Follow me".

This new way of being is hard to grasp for many in all epochs.
For it means that one should leave old ways and walk upon new ones, freshly built under their very feet...walking on water eh?
The perfect symbol of new ways even where the old ones couldn't go .

With new conscience one can go anywhere BUT! I repeat BUT one has to be not afraid.
One has to really create all the time this new path way of Love.

Peter started to create it but then got afraid of what he saw around him ,thus he begun to sunk.
"Ye of little faith"

Meaning you who are afraid.

In conclusion , there is only one life, one baptism ,one God ,one Lord - when you look from the high point of view.

When one soul chose to go towards its Creator, along the way this soul realizes finally those words about One this or One that.

Some call this Unity consciousness.
And they have a right to do so for we are all united in God on the highest realm of eternity.
Down here we forgot who we are and play this games of who is right and who is wrong.

Alas for decades of research of someone has took, if those persons didn't do the only required thing ,an ultimate thing - to experience the Love, to share it and to be it.
All knowledge falls down as worthless and all science and all that any particular soul in whole existence in whole Universe has done- IF they do not let themselves to experience the Love.

In the Love one can do anything they so please above all laws of physics,spirituality, material universes, dimensions and all that exist currently.
And finally here Bible quotes that "God is Love"...

We are Love too ,it's time to embrace this fact. To leave quarreling aside- it does do no good.
Heaven, Hell, Death,Life ... we are all above this if we embrace the Love.

[kreagle]

My dear heyokah,

You did not completely specify in "your words" that you were an atheist,.....but your directive to me to "view your blog by Austin Cline,.....an avowed atheist",.....and the consequent "defense of atheism",....leaves me no choice but to believe that you are, indeed, an atheist,....too.

Prior to our conversation, here,.....which is a "first" between you and I,......you would be able to say,....with authority,....that there "is no such thing as a....."kreagle"! In your mind, you could justify that stance,....because you've,....never heard of me,....never seen me,.....so consequently I don't, or must not, exist! Of course, that "theory" would completely evaporate,....and has,....with our "meeting" here, hasn't it? You can no longer say that "kreagle" doesn't exist,.....for now you've officially met him!!

This "exact same scenario" applies to the atheist and his/her view of God,...the Lord Jesus Christ. My dear,...dear,...friend,....."you simply have not formally met, or been properly introduced, to Him,....yet. If you will simply get to the point in your life,....and activate the "faith" that God has place within you,.....you will find our Lord God, Jesus,...eagerly looking forward to "making your acquaintance"! Once you do,.....like I did,....you'll never,...ever,.....deny Him again! I promise!

I have no doubt, that the "link" I enclosed, dealing with "there are no atheists in foxholes",....has inflamed you. But dear,....the account and story I've shared there is "completely true",.......it "did" really happen,.....exactly as I reported! The "soul" knows who to call on in a desperate time of need. It will, indeed, call upon it's Maker!!

I hope things are going well with you in Holland.


With much love and peace,.....your servant,......kreagle


Dear Mr. Kreagle,

Exactly this kind of talk will make me stay away as far as I can from any fundamentalist Christian, Muslim or Jew, or their religions.


This has nothing to do with the Unconditional Love my God has shown me when He brought me back from death and gave me my life again many years ago.

You know nothing about me, yet you arrogantly label me as an atheist (as if that would be something unworthy...... ever heard of "Love Thy Neighbour" ....?)
Yes, if there would only be YOUR angy god, I would prefer to be an atheist.

Thank God, there is a God of Undonditional Love, for us all to be found.....

So please stop preaching.



heyokah,

My dear friend,......if you wish to not be "labeled" as an "atheist",....I would certainly advise you to not use such a "heavily laden-ed" atheistic view for any such "future post" that you might submit. There are no less than "ten" specific references to "atheism" on the blog that you advised me to read,......by an "avowed atheist", to boot. I promise you that I wouldn't be the "only one" who would arrive at the "same conclusion" I came up with,....by simply reading the material you presented. Are you, indeed, saying that you do not ascribe to be an Atheist?

Have you ever heard of the saying,....."Birds of a feather,......flock together"?

Now it appears that I have misunderstood what I thought was obvious. To that I profoundly apologize,......but I do hope you fully understand where I arrived at my "deduction", or outlook.


I wish you well,.....and I am equally grateful that our God has previously saved you from a "close call" with death.

Love and Peace,......kreagle

[greybeard]

I agree with Beren.
The path narrows or various seeming paths converge into one--- and eventually there is only one way to God
The first two commandments sum it up---- Love
Surrender surrender to the Love.

Chris

[crested-duck]

[....snip]
observer, my "unbelieving friend",

I won't spend a great deal of time, here, with my response,......for it is painfully clear to me that you've pretty much "made up your mind" and convinced yourself that there is NO GOD.
[....snip]


Nor, kreagle, will I spend a great deal of time. Presumption is the father of delusion.

Simply because I have presented evidence showing Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament is not the "One True God" of Yeshua ben Joseph, you presume that I have no faith in God. It would be more accurate to state, I have no faith in your god.

I believe in the God of Unconditional Love as ministered to by Yeshua and the Nazarene Essenes and later understood by the Cathar as Amor.

The Cathar also believed your god of the Old Testament, Yahweh, was what they referred to as Rex Mundi, The King of the World.

You see kreagle, I've studied far beyond the limits of your Roman sponsored Bible. That's something Fundamentalist Christians will not do. "Eating from the Tree of Knowledge" is explicitly prohibited by the dogma of the Roman sponsored Bible, and expressly forbidden by Rex Mundi.

The early Christians were annihilated from the planet for possessing a knowledge taught by Yeshua ben Joseph and his Nazarene Essene followers. As a self proclaimed believer in the Word of Jesus, you should do yourself a favor and seek-out the knowledge the individual behind the Jesus Story actually taught.

I've studied the branches of true Christianity that followed the words of Yeshua ben Joseph. Those are the documents that were excluded from the Roman Bible.

As I've stated, the God of the Old Testament is ol'Rex Mundi himself. Your Un-holy bible is the true heresy.

The God I believe in is the God of Unconditional Love who makes no such promise of an eternal lake of fire....


Hi Observer
I find this post of yours to be spot on, concise and to the point.

I suspect that most fundamentalists did not come to their conclusions on their own but as part of a Bible study group where they were guided to their conclusions--- subtly brain washed.
Then being part of a group that claims to know the truth it is very hard not to dismiss any evidence that you believe a fallacy.
Its typical ego--- We are superior we are Gods chosen, we are the elect etc---powerful stuff but very divisive.

The little I know I found out for myself through many books and teachers--- always careful to cross check and to look for a core message that transcended time and the various teachers.

My researched, tried and tested belief is that God is "Unconditional Love "

Chris Here is a novel idea to try and make everyone understand::instead of saying "god"or"love" relace the word god/love with"universal conscious awareness", and start looking at this thread without biased religious dogma. And if your serious about learning truthful facts about the real history of humans and who created them and why---go read" the journey of UCA, and the journey of Self" by frank O'Collins. He had extensive access to the vatican library full of the hidden truth that's been used by religion to keep humans unaware and enslaved to their system of control.Or you can stay stagnent and unevolveing, and remain ignorant by your own choice by believing what someone else told you was truth without researching and investigateing for yourself. The choice is for each of us to personally make, become aware or die ignorant believing lies and deciet and enjoy your personal enslavement to the system created by man, who was created by more advanced"universally consciously aware" creatures than ourselves that told their creation that they are the gods that created them, and therefore the gods personal slaves--Rob

[crested-duck]

Willful ignorance,popular opinion, and religious dogma are the only enemy and "devil in action". They are/were specifically and intentionally designed by man to be the enemy of CRITICAL THINKING & CONSCIOUS AWARENESS !!! All for the control of many by very few creative thinkers with the ability to think critically, come up with a plan of action, and just do it putting it in action, with the threat of force and death to get their way. We all instinctually knew this when we were born, but many are too brainwashed to realise exactly what is happening to them. And others know this is true ,but don't want to face criticism from the rest of the brainwashed. I call that lack of spine and lack of self respect, and willful ignorance. If this post enflames you, you better take a look inside yourself and realise why. It's really all right to admit you've been lied to and decieved by religion, it's not the end of your world, it's the beginning of CONSCIOUS AWARENESS about yourself and the universe.--Rob Exactly how religion takes control of you: From a very early age people are presented with something that the mind doesnt know about yet,
but they dont have the learned abilities to process or to reason their way out of it at that point in life
so they go along with it, even though the gut says no. Hundreds of years, and many generations of brainwashed ignoramous's later---well just look around, look around. Where exactly do you fit into this ugly picture that is the reality we are currently living in.

[heyokah]

My dear heyokah,

You did not completely specify in "your words" that you were an atheist,.....but your directive to me to "view your blog by Austin Cline,.....an avowed atheist",.....and the consequent "defense of atheism",....leaves me no choice but to believe that you are, indeed, an atheist,....too.

Prior to our conversation, here,.....which is a "first" between you and I,......you would be able to say,....with authority,....that there "is no such thing as a....."kreagle"! In your mind, you could justify that stance,....because you've,....never heard of me,....never seen me,.....so consequently I don't, or must not, exist! Of course, that "theory" would completely evaporate,....and has,....with our "meeting" here, hasn't it? You can no longer say that "kreagle" doesn't exist,.....for now you've officially met him!!

This "exact same scenario" applies to the atheist and his/her view of God,...the Lord Jesus Christ. My dear,...dear,...friend,....."you simply have not formally met, or been properly introduced, to Him,....yet. If you will simply get to the point in your life,....and activate the "faith" that God has place within you,.....you will find our Lord God, Jesus,...eagerly looking forward to "making your acquaintance"! Once you do,.....like I did,....you'll never,...ever,.....deny Him again! I promise!

I have no doubt, that the "link" I enclosed, dealing with "there are no atheists in foxholes",....has inflamed you. But dear,....the account and story I've shared there is "completely true",.......it "did" really happen,.....exactly as I reported! The "soul" knows who to call on in a desperate time of need. It will, indeed, call upon it's Maker!!

I hope things are going well with you in Holland.


With much love and peace,.....your servant,......kreagle


Dear Mr. Kreagle,

Exactly this kind of talk will make me stay away as far as I can from any fundamentalist Christian, Muslim or Jew, or their religions.


This has nothing to do with the Unconditional Love my God has shown me when He brought me back from death and gave me my life again many years ago.

You know nothing about me, yet you arrogantly label me as an atheist (as if that would be something unworthy...... ever heard of "Love Thy Neighbour" ....?)
Yes, if there would only be YOUR angry god, I would prefer to be an atheist.

Thank God, there is a God of Unconditional Love, for us all to be found.....

So please stop preaching.



heyokah,

My dear friend,......if you wish to not be "labeled" as an "atheist",....I would certainly advise you to not use such a "heavily laden-ed" atheistic view for any such "future post" that you might submit. There are no less than "ten" specific references to "atheism" on the blog that you advised me to read,......by an "avowed atheist", to boot. I promise you that I wouldn't be the "only one" who would arrive at the "same conclusion" I came up with,....by simply reading the material you presented. Are you, indeed, saying that you do not ascribe to be an Atheist?

Have you ever heard of the saying,....."Birds of a feather,......flock together"?

Now it appears that I have misunderstood what I thought was obvious. To that I profoundly apologize,......but I do hope you fully understand where I arrived at my "deduction", or outlook.


I wish you well,.....and I am equally grateful that our God has previously saved you from a "close call" with death.

Love and Peace,......kreagle

Dear Mr. Kreagle,

I was raised in a happy family, without any religion and with lots of love and common sense.
Although the word God or Jesus Christ was never mentioned, I used to talk to some kind of entity (God, Jesus, Mr. Bean....?) every night from an early age.
It might have been 'someone' outside or inside myself and sometimes I even thought it was a part of myself I was talking to.

As I grew up, heard and experienced what Religions had done and were still doing to humanity, I decided to stay as far away as I could from any of them.

Of course, being a very curious person, I followed lectures on all kinds of religious traditions, philosophies and other ethical systems for living, without being "captured" by any.

I have always been at ease and very happy being me, here and now, in this universe, knowing that I had 'all and everything' within me.

If all this will make me, in your eyes, an atheist, .... ok, if that will make you feel happy.
Will I be burning in (your) hell when my path will have come to an end ?.... I don't think so, even more.... I'm sure I won't !

Love and Peace to you too Mr. Kreagle


HOWEVER......


Being a heyokah, I can't help asking you this:

"Did Jesus come here to save us or was it to teach us to save ourselves?"

"Saving or taking care of people is a high purpose but teaching people to save or take care of themselves and each other is an even higher one.
Jesus tried to teach people to think for themselves and care for each other but Christianity twisted his words around to say that we have to always rely on a single supreme ruler to take care of us and save us whenever we screw up."


. Love is the desire and ability to make someone happy and joyful every minute of every day
. Love is unconditional acceptance of someone no matter what they choose to believe or do
. Love is promising someone something good and then surprising them with something ten times better the very next day
. The god of the bible ought to try using love some time instead of just bragging about it


From :
"The horrible truth about religion" (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_18.htm)
by Andrew Werner



****

Now you will surely label me as an atheist, Mr Kreagle. So be it.

I know better.

[kreagle]

greybeard,


I suspect that most fundamentalists did not come to their conclusions on their own but as part of a Bible study group where they were guided to their conclusions--- subtly brain washed

I can name a "few" occasions,....in the Bible,.....where there were many "individuals" who were "eternally grateful" that they were not......"left alone to find out the truth, by themselves".


1) Acts 2:38-42....."3,000 souls" were "schooled" by their Teacher, Peter.....and when "class was adjourned",.....they were "baptized in Jesus' name, received the Holy Ghost,.......and "likewise were added to the original Church"!, (v. 47)


2) Acts 8:1-17....."City of Samaria, both men and women" were "schooled" by their Teachers, Philip and Peter......and when their "class was adjourned",.....they were "baptized in Jesus' name, received the Holy Ghost,.....and the original Church grew larger!


3) Acts 10:1-48....."Cornelius and his household" were "schooled" by their Teacher, Peter,......and "before class could be adjourned",......they "received the Holy Ghost, "first",....and then were consequently baptized in Jesus' name,.....and the original Church grew,....even larger!


4) Acts 19:1-7....."12 Disciples of John the Baptist" were "schooled" by their Teacher, Paul,....."class was adjourned",.....they were "re-baptized,...this time in Jesus' name, received the Holy Ghost,.....and the Church grows again!


5) Acts 8:26-40....."Ethiopian eunuch", (1 man), was "schooled" by his Teacher, Philip,.....and when "class was adjourned",......he was baptized and "born of the water and the Spirit",....and the Church grew, this time, by "1" more!!!


greybeard,....I apologize for the "redundancy" above, but it should be especially noted that God,.....in "every case" here,.....had a Teacher(s),.......with various amounts of "students" present for these "classroom sessions".

Regardless if the "classroom" consisted of a city,... (as in the case of Samaria),... with multitudes of "students",.....OR......if the "classroom" only consisted of "1" student, as with the Ethiopian eunuch,......a valuable lesson was to be taught,...absorbed by the student(s),....and then applied. ( I'm also elated to report that these "students",....ALL.....passed with "flying colors"!!!)

greybeard,.....more often than not,....it "requires" a Teacher, ( a "seasoned" saint of God), to show someone else the "way" to salvation. No greater example of this can possibly be shown than in the case of the, lone, Ethiopian eunuch. After an angel of God had directed Philip to "meet" this "lone student" in the desert,.....Philip caught up with the Ethiopian eunuch, at his chariot, just as he was attempting to read out of his Bible, the passage from Isaiah 53:7. As Philip watched the eunuch "reading" he, no doubt, recognized that a problem existed. The eunuch, (student), was "struggling to understand".

Acts 8:30-31
King James Version (KJV)

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.


It's here, greybeard,.....that, quite frankly,.....a "Bible study" broke out!

After reading, together, the passage of Isaiah 53:7,....the eunuch questioned Philip.....

Acts 8:34-35
King James Version (KJV)

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.


From this point, just look back above, to #5, for the "results of this Bible study"



greybeard,.....I, "too", love to periodically study "alone",.....in the "quiet of night". It's there that I have accumulated many "priceless gems' from the contents of God's Holy Word! Consequently I have equally realized the "priceless moments" that I've been privileged to experience in the "seat of a student". I've proudly sat in "both seats",.....as a "student",.....and now as a "teacher". I shudder to think where I would be "if" I had never "humbled myself" and accepted the "seat of a student",....not only like the "eunuch" did,......but every one of the individuals that I described above!!!

Victorious Christians,......never leave,...or omit,....the "seat of a student"!!!

Bible studies,....with others,.....in Church,.....are vital to your "Christian survival"


(in conclusion)


2 Timothy 2:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


and......

Hebrews 10:24-25
King James Version (KJV)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


These passages tell me how "vitally important" it is to "study His Word",......so that we might "rightly divide",.....(or "properly interpret"),....It's content,.....and then apply! In connection with this,....we are then exhorted to "gather together",.......assemble ourselves together! ("This",....quite frankly, means......"go to Church",......attend and give,.... (as a "student",....and a "teacher"),...... "Bible studies").


This is no time to,.....maroon yourself on your own little "Christian island"!,....and attempt to,......"wing it on your own!!"


And, yes......greybeard,.....believe it or not,.....I did not need,( or require),.....a "collection of minds", (Bible study group),.....to write this,.....or any other posts that I've share here on Avalon.


"He",......is my "teacher",......and I,.....the "student"!!!

(hint:........"He" let's me type,......though!)


God bless you, my friend,.......your servant,.......kreagle

[greybeard]

Hi Kreagle
respectfully read post 1454.
I have been on my own path for 35 years and have sat with enlightened masters.
Yes I was influenced by them but there was no dogma ever involved.
Im not against you path Kreagle its just not mine--- mine works beautifully for me.
Im sure yours works beautifully for you.
With Love Chris

[gripreaper]

Hi Kreagle
respectfully read post 1454.
I have been on my own path for 35 years and have sat with enlightened masters.
Yes I was influenced by them but there was no dogma ever involved.
Im not against you path Kreagle its just not mine--- mine works beautifully for me.
Im sure yours works beautifully for you.
With Love Chris

There was a man who met another man on a trail walking up a mountain. The one man asked if he was going to turn right or left at the next fork, as they did not go the same direction. One man took the left fork, and the other man took the right fork. When they both wound up at the summit, the one man asked: "I thought you took the other trail?" to which he replied: "It does not matter which trail you take on the mountain, all trails eventually lead to the summit.

Trying to say there is only one path and your path is absolute, is not consistent with nature or truth.

[Unified Serenity]

Observer,

I am curious as it seems from your post that you believe in Yeshua? What was the New Covenant he established with those following him and all who would come after because of their testimony?

[Beren]

Understanding is the key in this matter. Without it there will be no harmony, only racket among in essence-good friends.
Good friends- all of us here.

To really understand a person who becomes a Christian (of any denomination) and with an honest heart proclaims its new life and God - is to understand a soul who wishes to share deepest riches with others. A very life of God.

A true Christian wants that everyone be saved from sin and death and moral degradation.
Concepts as sin or death or moral degradation are debatable but nevertheless exist in many forms.

Aim of a true Christian is to help others be free of these negative concepts and live in high realms of spirit.
True Christian will not be a fear based person who will threat others with imaginary hell or Devil and such claiming that God will do so.

True Christian will embrace a spirit of Christ and become "Christed" meaning to grow into Christ`s image as he is an image of God.
"To Love" is the essence of Christian - meaning a call to action- TO LOVE.

It`s not a call to wait and see what`s going to happen so acting accordingly , it`s THE call to action - to create new reality from nothing with the power of Love-God`s power.

"Many will call me in that day saying Lord ,Lord, but I will say depart from me , I never knew you"

Above words are paraphrased from Bible.

It sends clear message of a need to know Christ personally. Only then your service and life will have meaning .
Why?

Because you meet God then,through Christ as God is a never changing principle of Love. God is Love - an ultimate reality which created everything and sustains everything.

So who is true Christian?
One who reads:
1.Bible
2.Nag hammadi texts
3.Koran
4.Hindu works
5.Buddhism works
6.All eastern works
7.Scientific works
8..........

???

True is one who knows Christ,thus received holy spirit-an all powerful force in Universe -God`s creative power with all knowledge.

Dear people all around, if you want to know the real deal, real person - go ask for yourself,search and you will find.
He is here this very moment. Everywhere we are .

Why wasting time in reasoning of who`s right and who`s tool (book) is right or not, when you can directly ask God in your own personal relationship with it.
At the end tools won`t matter,only the connection will.

And tool is just a tool (books) ,you can use kitchen knife to cut cheese and you can kill your neighbor with it...Knife isn`t guilty of an action.
Who wield it?

Who`s conscience used it to cut a loaf of bread and cheese on top of it?
Who`s conscience used it to slay a man next door?

Yours and mine`s.

So use tools (books,texts,speeches,people etc...religions) wisely and don`t blame God for your own absence of knowledge of how to wield it.

Grow up and see the power of whom we are children.
I bless you all.

[observer]

Observer,

I am curious as it seems from your post that you believe in Yeshua? What was the New Covenant he established with those following him and all who would come after because of their testimony?

It depends on what Yeshua you are referring to Serenity.

I believe in Yeshua ben Joseph, the enlightened man.

A man of peace and love, filled with the spirit of the God of Unconditional Love - as is possible for any one of us, if we follow our heart.

I infer from most of your comments, you are referring to the "Trinity Yeshua", otherwise known as Jesus of the Bible.

I believe I have offered enough evidence throughout my comments in this thread to draw 'reasonable doubt' as to the claims of the false apostle, Saul, that this Trinity Jesus represents - in any way - the mission of Yeshua ben Joseph and the Nazarene Essenes (http://essenes.net/index.php?Itemid=841&id=591&option=com_content&task=view). Thereby, nullifying any of the fabrications attributed to this Jesus of the Bible as hearsay/heresy.

The Roman Empire created the Bible and thereby created the Holy Roman Empire.

The entire Biblical story, from the rewriting of the Old Testament (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCXlFWBcxBo&list=PL3804C3592B453048&index=5&feature=plpp_video), to the fairytale of the New Testament (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_piso.htm)is all a manipulation of the facts - just ask a Cathar (http://www.cathar.info/1201_beliefs.htm), or here (http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/gnostic_files/cather.htm), or here (http://www.cathar.info/).

Oh! I nearly forgot, the only remnant of the Cathar is the word catharsis - which defines to: "a total purging".

This is what your unholy bible did to the truth. Hypnotic belief in this dogma is a direct path to Rex Mundi.

update
BTW to Serenity:
A "covenant" is a pact a Satanist makes with Satan. That's why they call a group of them a Satanic Coven.

Note to Beren:
You are missing my point completely, Beren.

What you are saying regarding the power of Love is true within a certain context.

What I'm saying is: the book we know as the Bible is a total fabrication, filled with just enough truth to 'hook' its believers into a path to Rex Mundi.

Take some time and research what I'm showing regarding the Cathar, or the Nazarene Essenes.

These reptiles....
They are very clever at what they do....

[truthseekerdan]

...

I believe in Yeshua ben Joseph, the enlightened man.

A man of peace and love, filled with the spirit of the God of Unconditional Love - as is possible for any one of us, if we follow our heart.
...

These reptiles....
They are very clever at what they do....

This is an account of what Yeshua ben Joseph called the "religious leaders" of his time, and it is also found in the canonical bible of today in this paragraph: Matthew 12:34-38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:34-38&version=CEV)

[Unified Serenity]

I am just wondering Observer, are you referring to Messiah ben Yosef vs. Messiah ben David in regards to the known Midrash that there is a suffering Messiah and a Conquering Messiah or are you referring to Yeshua's earthly father named Yosef who was the husband of his mother Miriam?

[greybeard]

Krishna said " Even those running in the wrong direction are mine"
He is believed to have been a Divine incarnation by many.
I think the God of unconditional love the Creator of all that is seen and unseen would say much the same
Chris

[Beren]

Observer,
I understand your zeal but you might completely misunderstood me.
Chris can tell you in PM about what I am saying since you cannot grasp beyond of what I say here.

It seems like you are polarized and prefer Gnosticism and Cathars.
That's OK but not the ultimate truth. Roman church did persecute Gnostics but what is that have to do with my words about Love and Christ?

Your view and posts are filled with this negativity and open hatred towards a -tool- Bible.
Is the tool bad because people abused it? Have you read my knife story here?

Same can be said to Gnostic teachings aswell. They are another tool for humanity.
Not good or bad ,just a tool.

Nazarenes or Cathars or Essenes or Catholics or Protestants or whomever are just religious groups of people devoted to understand God.
Trouble is that each and everyone claims exclusive right to perfect understanding of God.

And if it's not according to them - then it must be evil disguised in truth...then it is reptiles or such as you claim.
I am saying why are you so bitter if you claim that you believe in Christ?

Somehow I don't feel spirit of Love behind your posts in this thread and YET you claim you know much ,you know Christ or Yeshua (doesn't matter), so much bitterness and accusation of all who does not agree with you.
Why is that?

What is behind your anger?
Don't you remember that story of speck in the eye and trunk aswell?

I ask you this honestly as a brother not as your opponent.

This is the very premise of division. Religious attachments towards certain groups.
I wonder what would happen if we as humans would attach to God with this zeal .. what miracle would emerge
:)

Christ wasn't a follower of any group or religion.

He created a path not a division towards God.

[kreagle]

observer,

You and I have,....shall we say,...."crossed swords", several times as of late. I want you to know that I, in no way, feel that you are a "bad, or evil," person. You've brought something up in your latest post, here,....that intrigues me,.....and makes me genuinely interested. I submit a "portion" of this recent quote by you.


I infer from most of your comments, you are referring to the "Trinity Yeshua", otherwise known as Jesus of the Bible.

I believe I have offered enough evidence throughout my comments in this thread to draw 'reasonable doubt' as to the claims of the false apostle, Saul, that this Trinity Jesus represents - in any way - the mission of Yeshua ben Joseph and the Nazarene Essenes. Thereby, nullifying any of the fabrications attributed to this Jesus of the Bible as hearsay/heresy.

The Roman Empire created the Bible and thereby created the Holy Roman Empire.



It might surprise you to know that I "completely concur'" with what appears to be a "complete disdain" held by you for the Catholic Church and what they have adamantly attempted to "shove down our throats",.....over the last several hundred years. I, too, despise what "they" have forced upon "true Christianity" with their many "atrocities" and "deceptive lies". Please correct me if I am wrong about your outlook, here.

Consequently,.....I can now, somewhat, better understand how, and why, you might feel the way you do,.....which has ultimately led you down the "path" you have chosen. It shouldn't take a "genius" to figure out that a "different path of enlightenment" is needed,.....when being faced with,....and given the choice of,......Catholicism,.......OR.........just about anything else!

You and I,.....just "might" have,.....more in common,.....than you might think! I have provided a link to a "recent" post that I made, here, at Avalon. Please view it, at your convenience,....and offer any comments you might have.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35019-the-Bible&p=518042#post518042


Love and Peace,..........your friend,.........kreagle

[observer]

I am just wondering Observer, are you referring to Messiah ben Yosef vs. Messiah ben David in regards to the known Midrash that there is a suffering Messiah and a Conquering Messiah or are you referring to Yeshua's earthly father named Yosef who was the husband of his mother Miriam?

Just as with any form of Fundamentalism, you are referring to literal interpretations of Jewish biblical text. This all becomes a personal experience as any interpretation is purely within the mind of the interpreter. Theologians refer to this process as exegesis. It is very often, quite possible to become delusional subscribing to some other person's interpretations of any theology.

A very long time ago, (I don't recall the source, this recollection is all from memory) I read where the Roman biblical story of Jesus was actually an amalgamation of the life story of several individuals.

One of these individuals migrated to the South of France with Mary Magdalene.

Another of these individuals eventually ended-up living in Tibet.

Again, the source eludes me, however, this story is just as plausible as the story created by the Piso (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_piso01.htm) of the Roman Empire.

Take it for what it's worth.

This I can say with a certainty from the available evidence:


The book known as the Torah didn't exist before the reign of King Hezekiah, some 800 (or so) years after the alleged Moses supposedly existed.

The evidence shows, the man known as Moses was most likely the adopted brother of Pharaoh Akhenaton, known as Tuthmosis IV.

The Egyptian record, a history carved into stone and not even discovered until the mid eighteen hundreds, does not mention Hebrews ever living as slaves in the land of Egypt.

That same record does document several dynasties of immigrants from the land of Canaan known as the Hyksos pharaohs.

The book known as the New Testament didn't even exist as in a complete form until more than three hundred years after the entity known in that book as Jesus.

The earliest known copies of all of the Gospels found in the New Testament were written well after the death of the individuals to whom these gospels were ascribed.

Let's not even go to the scientific evidence documenting the age of the universe.


As you can clearly see there is an abundance of evidence (the few mentioned here, and the many more mentioned throughout this thread) to create a 'reasonable doubt' regarding the validity of the bible as the unquestionable 'Word of God'. That is the topic in this thread.

One could glean as much moral understanding from a fairytale like "The Pet Goat" as one can obtain from accepting - without question - this Bible as the Word of God.

[truthseekerdan]

Christianity, Islam & Judaism are from The Holy Science

Food for thought...

hUAEFKg25Jw

[Beren]

Thanks Dan!

Similar findings that we can relate to this which is shown in the video here is from this YouTube channel :

LadyoftheLabyrinth `s channel.

She elaborates in 61 videos about old Norse Edda poetic and prose and how she found the exact same connection as in Dan`s video here- holy science.

All in allegories and hidden meanings about the higher knowledge of high science of God.
How for example Thor as God of thunder was the actual force of lightning or electricity.

All in all when united with Christ ,thus with God ,we finally see, hear and live fully.
We understand the creation and the process of it.
We grasp the power of God that is in us for we are one with god ,his children.

This is the meaning of reconnecting with God to be able to experience fullness again and forever.

Thanks Dan again for this gem!

Beren

P.S.

I thank now the dear soul of Nikola Tesla for showing us all the electricity of the universe.
He was the devoted man and true Christian for he knew God on a different level, closer to the truth than most of the people ever.

[greybeard]

Hi Kreagle
The tradition path of enlightenment ---tried and tested for thousand of years existed long before Jesus.
Its a pure path as it has lineages which can be traced back to the first enlightened being in that tradition.
The teaching is unadulterated.
The way of climbing the spiritual mountain might have been different depending on the era and culture--- the end result always the same.
The awareness of being One without a second. (The Father and I are One)--- in other words non-duality.

The Tao states That which can not be spoken of--- its not understandable to the human mind.
All enlightened teachers say that it can only be known directly in awareness.
Its not a concept it is reality.
Anything that comes and goes is not Truth.
Truth is eternal and unchanging.

The enlightened teacher points the way but there is no dogma --- there is no middle man as such, its between you and God--- no other.
Religion does not promote meditation--- yet where is God to be found but in the stillness of meditation?
"Be Still and know that I am God."

Prayer is good but that's about you and your wants and needs in the main---in the silence of meditation God has a chance to get through to you directly.
You have to get out of the way.
You have to surrender to Gods will and Gods time.

Just sitting quietly, no technique, that brings the peace beyond all understanding--- that is my direct experience.

Respectfully
Chris

[observer]

[....snip]
It might surprise you to know that I "completely concur'" with what appears to be a "complete disdain" held by you for the Catholic Church and what they have adamantly attempted to "shove down our throats",.....over the last several hundred years. I, too, despise what "they" have forced upon "true Christianity" with their many "atrocities" and "deceptive lies". Please correct me if I am wrong about your outlook, here.
[....snip]


You have only gotten it partly correct, kreagle. (....And, I might add, this applies to RedeZra, Beren, Unified Serenity, GCS1103, and any other of the members who are finding "anger" in my comments. I'm simply the messenger....)

The foundations of my disdain are far greater than what the Roman Empire did in creating the theology known as Trinity Christianity.... Or, what the Holy Roman Empire has done in the name of that theology since they 'created' Trinity Christianity, some two thousand years ago.

You see, my friends, I am a pilgrim, on a search for what really occurred to cause this third density to be a place of such indecent, obscene, disgusting human suffering.

Finding new understanding is the true purpose of the Avalon Forum. This thread is supporting the tool that has been historically used by those that set-up and run this vile system.

The historic state of world affairs - up to the present conditions - can only be described as a Satanic Blood Sacrifice Ritual.... the result of a dogmatic belief in one, or another of the major Yahwist religions.

In my journey, I have discovered evidence that has given me an understanding shared by few other individuals, here.

My disdain is with all Yahwist religions. It is embedded in the fact that Yahweh is a 'False God' impersonating the "One True God, my Father in Heaven" of the man known as Yeshua ben Joseph.


John 8:44 - KJV
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

The Nazarene Essene known as, Yeshua ben Joseph, did not endorse Yahweh/Jehovah as the "One True God", or the God of Unconditional Love. This is part of the corruption perpetrated by the Roman Empire in creating the entity known as Jesus out of the life story of Yeshua ben Joseph.

The evidence is clear on this point. One must be willing to look outside of the dogma into what was rejected by the early church fathers, those individuals who had the most influence on the creation of the Bible. Those who were 'sainted' by the Holy Roman Empire Church.

From the cumulative evidence, it is my interpretation that we all are fallen, here, into this particular density. We are here to learn how to get back out. We do this over many cycles of incarnations.

Few of us remember our former existence - by design.

None of the Yahwist religions will tell you this Truth - by design.

The evidence will show, there is a Demiurge who feeds on the essence of our soul-matter. The best part of the energies we grow - both negative and positive - are used as food in an hyperdimensional dominion - outside of our three dimensional perceptions.

A 'seed' of our former Soul-Matter is than replanted into another incarnation and sent back to grow more energy as food for those controlling this farming operation - these Elohim of the Old Testament.

This place.... this particular density.... is a soul farm, and the Mass of Humanity is the crop. It's been this way since the Dawn of Man. Humanity was created by this Demiurge.... this Rex Mundi of the Cathar.... for the sole purpose of feeding on energies.... the soul-matter of the crop.

So you see, my friends, as in the day when Yeshua ben Joseph overturned the tables of the 'money changers' in the temple, I am filled with a similar rage toward anyone who - out of hypnotized ignorance - refuses to look at the evidence.... refuses to eat from the Tree of Knowledge out of a blind fear of what Yahweh will do to them....


They are very clever at what they do....

[truthseekerdan]

Researching, understanding and accepting is everything... (1 Thessalonians 5:21) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205:21&version=CEV)

BObrQGUtjkw


4EvrG40qXjM


4yRRkOtiJEo

[greybeard]

The Bible is fine and uplifts many.
However life is levels of consciousness.
Different classes -- no one better than another just different levels.
The ultimate truth---Only God is.

Jesus pointed to it.
The Father and I are One-- every enlightened sage says the same.

Look under a stone and you will find me there.
God is everywhere without exception.

Namaste ( I greet the God within you)

Chris

[GCS1103]

[....snip]
It might surprise you to know that I "completely concur'" with what appears to be a "complete disdain" held by you for the Catholic Church and what they have adamantly attempted to "shove down our throats",.....over the last several hundred years. I, too, despise what "they" have forced upon "true Christianity" with their many "atrocities" and "deceptive lies". Please correct me if I am wrong about your outlook, here.
[....snip]


You have only gotten it partly correct, kreagle. (....And, I might add, this applies to RedeZra, Beren, Unified Serenity, GCS1103, and any other of the members who are finding "anger" in my comments. I'm simply the messenger....)

The foundations of my disdain are far greater than what the Roman Empire did in creating the theology known as Trinity Christianity.... Or, what the Holy Roman Empire has done in the name of that theology since they 'created' Trinity Christianity, some two thousand years ago.

You see, my friends, I am a pilgrim, on a search for what really occurred to cause this third density to be a place of such indecent, obscene, disgusting human suffering.

Finding new understanding is the true purpose of the Avalon Forum. This thread is supporting the tool that has been historically used by those that set-up and run this vile system.

The historic state of world affairs - up to the present conditions - can only be described as a Satanic Blood Sacrifice Ritual.... the result of a dogmatic belief in one of the major Yahwist religions.

In my journey, I have discovered evidence that has given me an understanding shared by few other individuals, here.

My disdain is with all Yahwist religions. It is embedded in the fact that Yahweh is a 'False God' impersonating the "One True God, my Father in Heaven" of the man known as Yeshua ben Joseph.


John 8:44 - KJV
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

The Nazarene Essene known as, Yeshua ben Joseph, did not endorse Yahweh/Jehovah as the "One True God", or the God of Unconditional Love. This is part of the corruption perpetrated by the Roman Empire in creating the entity known as Jesus out of the life story of Yeshua ben Joseph.

The evidence is clear on this point. One must be willing to look outside of the dogma into what was rejected by the early church fathers, those individuals who had the most influence on the creation of the Bible. Those who were 'sainted' by the Holy Roman Empire Church.

From the cumulative evidence, it is my interpretation that we all are fallen, here, into this particular density. We are here to learn how to get back out. We do this over many cycles of incarnations.

Few of us remember our former existence - by design.

None of the Yahwist religions will tell you this Truth - by design.

The evidence will show, there is a Demiurge who feeds on the essence of our soul-matter. The best part of the energies we grow - both negative and positive - are used as food in an hyperdimensional dominion - outside of our three dimensional perceptions.

A 'seed' of our former Soul-Matter is than replanted into another incarnation and sent back to grow more energy as food for those controlling this farming operation - these Elohim of the Old Testament.

This place.... this particular density.... is a soul farm, and the Mass of Humanity is the crop. It's been this way since the Dawn of Man. Humanity was created by this Demiurge.... this Rex Mundi of the Cathar.... for the sole purpose of feeding on energies.... the soul-matter of the crop.

So you see, my friends, as in the day when Yeshua ben Joseph overturned the tables of the 'money changers' in the temple, I am filled with a similar rage toward anyone who - out of hypnotized ignorance - refuses to look at the evidence.... refuses to eat from the Tree of Knowledge out of a blind fear of what Yahweh will do to them....


They are very clever at what they do....

I think your post was very thought-provoking and I read it a few times. I agree that this world is full of evil and depravity. I attribute that to the "prince of this world", Satan. Am I understanding you correctly, that you're saying who we refer to as "Jesus" is the same individual being described in Mark 8:44? Understand, I am not a Bible expert, so I'm asking you this question seriously and with no sarcasm, at all. Is it your belief that Yeshua ben Joseph is the true Christ and Yahweh is actually an imposter or demonic entity? Am I correct that you believe there is a "God", but that the being that many people believe is God's son, is actually someone other than that?

Finally, I want you to know that I respect your journey and what you obviously have found as the answer for you. Maybe I should be putting this in a PM to you, but how did you come to your answers? Where did you begin your study that brought you to where you are?

I thanked your post, because I respect your beliefs and your right to express them. (which you did very well)

[Beren]

Observer,
thank you for now clearer understanding of your stance.

I hope you will be able to see where I am coming from and look beyond of what you currently understand and you do understand- a lot.
But let us explore this further, shall we?

In your quest for deeper meaning and origins of our situation ,which is btw our quest here on this forum and elsewhere where people honestly seek truth, you came to one conclusion and that is the Gnostic premise that Roman empire set up trap for world.

It`s true to an extent.

You` re mostly right but what does that have to do with Jesus Christ whom the Roman procurator executed?
Let`s not get again into name pronunciation since on:
English -Jesus Christ
Hebrew - Yeshua
Serbian- Isus Hrist
Croatian- Isus Krist
Afrikaans- Jesus Christus
Checz-
Ježíš Kristus

etc...

Different language - different pronunciation.
It doesn`t matter the vocal name, it does matter who he is.

Now Garden of Eden and tree of knowledge...
First of all who was serpent, or Satan as he was named by Christ?


"Consuming and destroying snake that surrounds the whole of life"

See this :
-kJNYCmLQ60

That is the translation from Hebrew.


So this force wants to absorb all life in itself or to be able to contain it or to rule it as it pleases.
This cannot be since God is Life itself and its giver hence that spirit no matter how powerful is just a creation.

And this spirit upon seeing the potential of humans to become God itself wanted to usurp their inherent power and steer it towards itself in hope that it will become all powerful and claim its desire.
Now maybe this sounds as oversimplified but it is how it is.

Now watch closely about this:

There are many trees in the garden and among those tree of life and tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Trees represent possibilities in vastness of the existence.

Garden of Eden was outside of time and space as we know it today.

So by partaking with any tree ,one would venture into many possibilities from this timeless Garden .
One of the possibility was tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Mind you that this is the only tree that man was warned off.
He would die if he partake of it.

Why and what it means to die?

The man was already perfect and deathless and in perfect unity with God on highest level.
Man was God`s child thus God itself .

Now by eating the tree`s fruit of knowledge of good and evil , this perfect man would venture out in this possibility or dimension of existence of duality .
In his then current state he was in unity with God or should we say Unity Consciousness at work all the time as well as singular expression in man itself all at once.

And since nothing can be destroyed ,only transformed as it is energy , man would transform- die in common tongue.
Thus a warning from Creator that if he try the fruit , he will die- transform -experience duality and its fruits.

God didn`t stopped man`s arms when reaching to the fruit and didn`t guarded it and not allowing his free will to do what he wants- simply God told him that he would experience the consequence of his choice- DUALITY thus death (which is absent in other realms of existence where man was before ).

Now comes serpent (spirit) and first lies man that he isn`t God already and that he needs to become one.
How?
By partaking the fruit of the knowledge of the good and evil.

Secondly serpent lies again by telling that he will not experience consequence of his choice- death or energy transformation.
Also serpent implies that God hid this new awesome power from man.

How can God hide something from man when they are united thus a man has access to the knowledge of all?


But in its cunning ,serpent(spirit known as Satan) deceived and tricked a man. Man believed that he lacks something.
Satan created a perfect illusion of should we say a hologram or presentation in man`s head.

Man swallowed it all.

Thus by believing this set up, man made a choice to venture in duality realm.
But quickly man saw that every choice has a consequence.

Satan wasn`t relieved as well.

He could snail out by saying that man actually chose and wasn`t forced...

Yes but who created the illusion and led the man to moment where the man thought that this is the only way?
Who has set the stage for the fall?

Satan.

Sure man chose, but also man could have chose not to venture out in duality.
But since God cannot be mocked everyone will face the consequences of their actions.

Satan was then fully revealed into the light of who he is.
His biggest punishment is the knowledge that he cannot be whom he wants to be, that his trick and game is destroyed utterly.
All his later actions can be repaired since God can do anything.

Despite his punishment in the lake of fire- the utter truth which will burn his image of Satan (but his essence will return to God as everything is energy and returns to its maker), despite this, Satan still works his holograms of lies and illusions.

Many are fooled today.

But there are ones who aren`t and who are united with God and Christ.


Now Observer, dear friend, are you united with God or you still believe to Gnostics who believe what they believe?
Forget the Bible, Gnostics, and all other movements on Earth from Asia to Africa, those are all tools.

Do you want to elevate yourself to the next level of understanding?

Do you want to see from high view point?

Or you are still down here and still turning tables?
Jesus turned tables but then Jesus didn`t only turned tables, he gave his life for us.

He gave something which is too precious to think of.
He gave his life and really didn`t lost it since energy cannot be lost.
He gave us the prime force. God`s power.

I bless you my dear friend and I bless your spirit and soul to expose truth and stand for it.
Now raise up and see with your own eyes of what I am speaking of.

In God`s Love ,

Beren

[greybeard]

Thats a powerful post Beren.

Its really simple.
Enlightenment reveals the truth--- always spoken of by the sages from their own experience.
Not hidden.

In India they were called Godrealised -for good reason--- they knew that they were One.
They could truthfully say "I am the totality all of it."

In the beginning God said "I am that I am"

That is the whole truth which is found in what is true of every seeming individual "I am"

Jesus pointed to it literally. "I am ( is) the way"

The sages say find the answer to the question "What am I?)

You can repeat Bible text till you are blue in the face and that may well bring some peace but will it answer the question "What am I?"
Will it bring you to the ultimate purpose of life?
The ultimate as I understand is to release "one" from ignorance -- the thought that you are a separate individual.
The truth as shown by Jesus is you are one with God-- not separate in anyway.
He said it "The Father and I are One"
He said also what He had done we could also and more.
He did not set himself up as different in anyway.
He was Humility Love and Forgiveness--- surrendered to the will of the Father.

All the knowledge of the world will not get you through the gates of Heaven which after all lies within. (Jesus said so)

Honest its simple.
What do you need to know?
You already are "I Am"
Uncover that Truth and you are home.

With love Chris

[Beren]

Exactly Chris, exactly!

Eventually the soul that masters the certain task , stops needing a tool to perform the same.
Ever going bickering about tools shows that one is not ready or able to master the task that he/she chose in time before time.

[GCS1103]

I need to say this and hope I don't sound like a fool.....I come to this thread often, because I get a feeling of peace here and I enjoy reading what everyone has to say. I say from my heart, that I respect everyone's truth. But I want to also say that when I read a post from Beren, Greybeard and Kreagle I feel that I have been blessed to find my way here and meet them.

As things are getting worse in the world and all we hear about is wars, tainted food, population reduction, etc. it's wonderful, to me, to be able to sit here after a lousy day at the office and read their posts. So I want to thank you guys, because you've made my life a little bit better.

[greybeard]

I need to say this and hope I don't sound like a fool.....I come to this thread often, because I get a feeling of peace here and I enjoy reading what everyone has to say. I say from my heart, that I respect everyone's truth. But I want to also say that when I read a post from Beren, Greybeard and Kreagle I feel that I have been blessed to find my way here and meet them.

As things are getting worse in the world and all we hear about is wars, tainted food, population reduction, etc. it's wonderful, to me, to be able to sit here after a lousy day at the office and read their posts. So I want to thank you guys, because you've made my life a little bit better.

You certainly are no fool and obviously open minded---- a rare quality.
May you find the Truth for your own self--- there in lies "The peace that passeth all understanding."
Fear not we are in Divine hands.



Much love
Chris

[Beren]

I need to say this and hope I don't sound like a fool.....I come to this thread often, because I get a feeling of peace here and I enjoy reading what everyone has to say. I say from my heart, that I respect everyone's truth. But I want to also say that when I read a post from Beren, Greybeard and Kreagle I feel that I have been blessed to find my way here and meet them.

As things are getting worse in the world and all we hear about is wars, tainted food, population reduction, etc. it's wonderful, to me, to be able to sit here after a lousy day at the office and read their posts. So I want to thank you guys, because you've made my life a little bit better.

You certainly are no fool and obviously open minded---- a rare quality.
May you find the Truth for your own self--- there in lies "The peace that passeth all understanding."
Fear not we are in Divine hands.



Much love
Chris


:amen:

Honesty is precious and more worthy than gold :)

Be blessed GCS1103 !

[kreagle]

I need to say this and hope I don't sound like a fool.....I come to this thread often, because I get a feeling of peace here and I enjoy reading what everyone has to say. I say from my heart, that I respect everyone's truth. But I want to also say that when I read a post from Beren, Greybeard and Kreagle I feel that I have been blessed to find my way here and meet them.

As things are getting worse in the world and all we hear about is wars, tainted food, population reduction, etc. it's wonderful, to me, to be able to sit here after a lousy day at the office and read their posts. So I want to thank you guys, because you've made my life a little bit better.


GCS1103,

My sister, and dear friend,.....I thank you from the depth of my heart for your kind and gracious words. I am very grateful that you are blessed with His Word. "Truth" has a distinct and certain "ring to it" that ultimately sets It apart from everything else,.....doesn't it? Keep your heart open, my dear friend and sister, and continue to allow God to lead you into the "full revelation" of His Word,....and the intention of His direction for you. He will not fail you!!

Always remember to stay,......."hungry and thirsty",.....for God's Word and enlightenment! We, humans, are a very funny and peculiar lot, in that, we never really reach out and obtain the "next,....or shall we say.....ultimate level, in life",.......UNTIL.......we recognize that we are "hungry and thirsty" for it!

The "Prodigal son" would have never "returned to his father's house",.....had he not been "gripped with hunger",....first! It was only after recognizing that,......1) "the pigs he was feeding were eating better than him",......and......2) "remembering that his father's servants had plenty to eat and to spare, also",.....that.......3) "he then resigned himself to be a servant to his father,....instead of a son". Why a "servant",....and not a "son"? Because at that particular "time in his life",.....the only thing he could see and "relate to",......was "his overpowering hunger". His "hunger" was the driving force behind him,......"returning to his father's house"!!! (Luke 15:11-32)

GCS1103,......did you "realize" that we,........("all of humanity"),........are "Prodigals"? (The "fall of Adam & Eve" made us "all" Prodigals!)

......did you "realize" that in order to "return to our Father's House",........that "hunger" is going to "dictate whether we make it back,...or not?"

......can you "hear" the dinner bell ringing?,....my dear friend, GCS1103,.....and "all" fellow Avalonians?



Matthew 5:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.


What an awesome God we serve!

God bless and keep you!......Love and Peace,......kreagle

[heyokah]

Hallelujah ....




What is God?
Is there a white bearded old man up there creating and presiding over everything?


If there is then what are all the zillions of other smart and creative souls doing in the cosmos besides sitting on their hands?
For millennia people have been asking this question but there is one thing that some have thought might be the answer, and that is that maybe collectively WE are God.


God might be like a computer CPU and we might be the millions of transistors inside it.


There is no master transistor (God) which gives life to all the others and on which all the others depend. We each function independently and also as one. One of the transistors (Jesus) did possibly emerge briefly to show us an example of a better way to operate but we are all equally part of the CPU as was he.


Essentially we could be God's guts.

Why would we need a big master when in the higher realms (which could be our destination), we will know everything and we will be able to govern ourselves?

We really have no real need to be ruled and dictated to.





What is worship?

Worship is the act of sending/offering love, devotion and gratitude to a deity or idol.


They say that love is understanding and yet no one really understands God at all. How can you love something or someone whom you can neither understand or communicate with properly?


Love and worship is also about admiration, adoration and gratitude but how can one feel these things towards someone whom they've never seen or spent time with?

No God has ever asked anyone to worship him so man's desire to worship a deity is nothing more than an ego based need to make himself feel useful to a god who otherwise probably has no real use for anything man has to offer.


There is no evidence that whatever or whoever created us needs us to worship them because the probability is that if we were created by a god or an advanced race then they were doing it for their own purpose and agenda. Why would you worship someone just for carrying out their own agenda? Would an all powerful creator create a dysfunctional bunch of lemmings just for the purpose of worship? Why then give us intelligence, free choice, diversity, individuality and a strong will and then threaten to disown or terminate us as soon as we try to use them?


If a single true God does exist then creating a race of selfish, sinful, ignorant, arrogant, egotistical, money hungry and sex obsessed beings for the sole purpose of worshiping him would have to be the stupidest thing he's ever done.

It's fairly clear that some people have allowed themselves to become ignorant and dumbed-down by the pompous tradition of religion.




Probably the worst is the commandment "Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,
and with all thy strength."

The problem with this one is that love that is commanded can never be true love because it hasn't come naturally. It has come from a place of fear and/or obedience and not from the heart. If that's the kind of love the Christian god wants then that's all he's going to get.

The fact that the god of the bible feels the need to command us to give him love indicates that he's not entirely confident that the splendour of his works and creations are going to be enough to gain our love so he makes it a commandment just in case.

Read more if you're brave:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_18.htm


May you all find the God of Unconditional Love in yourself and all around you.

Love and Peace to all and everything from the bottom of my heart.

Aho, Mitakuye Oyasin.

****

Probably my last post on this thread
as I don't want to be of any threat,
nor do I want to disturb anyone's bliss.


****

[Beren]

Well Heyokah ,
I can only concur with you here and thank you honestly for this article.
Higher understanding has nothing to do with lower understanding,simple as that.

Quantum fields where we dance upon as intelligent energy is our nature or one of our natures.
Hence all that miracles of the past from Christ and others - to show people who they are.
To show us that we create all in this quantum field of life.

But Bible and all other works on Earth are subjected to allegories ,stories, examples and such so that lower conscience can grasp the higher ways and paths of higher knowledge.

"I and Father are one"
"Ye are gods"

This is oversimplification but the most accurate one of unity consciousness in quantum fields.

A part of Creator ,that as a single unit, experience particular thing and by experience's end it automatically sends the signal by invisible strings of spiritual energy to God Creator .
Thus God has the knowledge of that particular experience , thus God experienced through this single unit a particular thing.

Single unit can experience whatever so desires meaning that God is experiencing through single unit and units.

Totality is God .

"I and Father are one"

Meaning Christ is aware that he is single unit but also one with Father so he can claim the power of God.
Power of God can only and I repeat ONLY be claimed when having the highest level of conscience.

Sure on lower levels aswell as in higher levels you can manifest many,many things and energies but the highest--- only with highest awareness of conscience.
Then you are truly one with Father ,you are Love then.

[kreagle]

heyokah,

Your "article", by Andrew Werner, is filled with information that ranges from,....."complete disrespect for God",......"blatant misquoting and understanding of God's relationship with mankind",........and......"total ignorance of God's Word."


Instead of "dissecting every part" of your "article",.....I am going to only address one particular point,....which I have "highlighted".


No God has ever asked anyone to worship him so man's desire to worship a deity is nothing more than an ego based need to make himself feel useful to a god who otherwise probably has no real use for anything man has to offer.



Let's see what God,....REALLY,....has to say about this.........


Matthew 4:9-11
King James Version (KJV)

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.


This "one passage", alone,.....(and there are "many" more),....completely refutes what your "expert/friend",.....
falsely and ignorantly......accuses God of!


Now for the "second half" of your quote,.....which I, once again,...."highlight".


to a god who otherwise probably has no real use for anything man has to offer.


Just so you'll know,.....when I, or other fellow Christians,......worship "our" God,.....it is NOT A ONE WAY EVENT!!


How about informing your "expert/friend",.......that GOD PARTICIPATES, ALSO!!!


When I, and "others",....worship and praise "our God",.....the love and adoration that "we" send to Him,......is "indeed",.....returned to us in an AGAPE fashion. AGAPE is the "pure love of God",...(TRUE LOVE),....that He gives to his children!


Notice what this passage relates.......


Psalm 22:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.


(note: Don't get "hung up" on the "term",....Israel,....for a "simple study" of the Scriptures will reveal that the "New Testament Church", founded on the Day of Pentecost, in Acts chapter 2,.....is that "holy nation",....the "spiritual Israel",......and certainly, as such,....."our praises" are, likewise,.....inhabited by God!!)


To "this point",....I'm quite certain that a "good deal" of what I have endeavored to relate to you, here,......has simply "gone over your head". For those of "us" who have experienced the "beauty of worshipping and praising God",.....it makes perfect sense!!!


In closing, I will say this to you.......

You might want to take a "closer look" at the "experts/friends" you've been around!!

The "sample" you've provided from your "expert/friend" is full of errors, my friend.

You really need a "true Friend",....who will not lie to you,....or mislead you!


Proverbs 18:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.


Hopefully,....somewhere in your life,....you will "really" come to know "this Friend" that I am talking about.


I genuinely wish you well,.........your servant,.......kreagle

[heyokah]

Dear kreagle and others who are interested.


Thank you for your concern and your Bible texts, which have shown me again that this god of your Bible will not be my friend. Sorry.
Nor do the words in the bible mean more to me than the myths and legends belonging to the ancient Greeks.
This Rex Mundi of your Bible will only love us when we'll worship him, serve him and follow his rules. Under His Conditions.......

My true Friend is the God of Unconditional Love who resides above man made religions and their gods, but can also be found inside All and Everything.
This Friend doesn't ask me to serve Him,.... like I will not ask anybody to serve me. (So you don't need to be my servant, dear kreagle)

* He doesn't set rules, as He allows me to make my mistakes and learn from them, as a gift or a present....

* He will forgive me my "sins" without condition, as I will forgive myself.... so I can forgive others.

* He is honest with me, as I will be honest with myself,.... so I can be honest with others.



Through self-forgiveness and self-honesty one will be able to release one's fear and become Free - Love - God - Pure Light - the Energy of all Matter and beyond....
There will even be no Death.



Love and Peace to all and everything from the bottom of my heart.

Aho, Mitakuye Oyasin

****

This is the best I can offer, as I'm not a native speaker, nor a good writer.

I did my best to explain where I come from.

[truth4me]

The bible is filled with lies and truth. Now for all the Jesus worshippers,no disrespect intended, Answer me this. You have to accept Jesus as your savior and that he died on the cross for our sins. Most church going people I know will tell you what I just stated yet, if that is the case tell me where Moses is or where is Daniel or Job ,Ruth,Soloman plus other Old Testament figures for they all were dead before "Jesus" was even born. How could you accept someone as your savior if you are dead before he was even born?


Now I will use the King James version of the bible for my next question. If Jesus was/is God would he lie? certainly not! If God Jesus told you there was a being greater then him would you believe it? yes,I would. Let's look at this verse from the KJV of the bible--John 14:28.......my Father is greater then I-- God Jesus is telling that there is a God that is greater then him so wouldn't logic dictate that you worship the Father for Jesus himself did and told the people AND Satan himself that his father is the only one you worship--Matthew 4:10


Let's backtrack to the Old Testament and look at this verse--Isaiah 7:14---Now since God gave us a sign that "Jesus" would be born of a virgin and his name would be called Immanuel then why is Jesus called Jesus??? They would have been calling Jesus Immanuel back then don't you think? unless someone has tampered with the bible.....hmmm Saul/Paul maybe ? but that's another story.

The first verse in the bible is a lie ....in the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth

Creation itself is above all IMHO.

The God of the bible was an E.T
Jesus never existed but <J> Immanuel did--I questioned that Isaiah verse before I ever heard of Billy Meier or the Talmud of Jmmanuel
John 1:1 is a lie - thought comes before a word


It's not a question of who's right or wrong it's a question of truth and as "Jesus" himself said in John 8:32--And ye shall know the truth,and the truth shall make you free."-- that is if people aren't scared to let it ,the truth, set them free.......

[Unified Serenity]

The bible is filled with lies and truth. Now for all the Jesus worshippers,no disrespect intended, Answer me this. You have to accept Jesus as your savior and that he died on the cross for our sins. Most church going people I know will tell you what I just stated yet, if that is the case tell me where Moses is or where is Daniel or Job ,Ruth,Soloman plus other Old Testament figures for they all were dead before "Jesus" was even born. How could you accept someone as your savior if you are dead before he was even born?

I hope you will accept a bible answer since you are using the bible to raise questions. Questions are good, because with proper study, answers are found. I happen to think a lot of what some churches teach is not biblical, and things that are biblical they don't teach. There are lots of issues that come up in the bible like your question and it's not a reason to throw the bible out in my opinion, it is an opportunity to study it more deeply and get to know our father a little bit better. Actually, the bible does address this very point:

Prior to Messiah, the place the dead went was split into two areas. One area was the abode of the righteous and the other was the abode of the wicked. We see in 1 Peter,


1Pe 3:18 For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit;
1Pe 3:19 and in this form he went and made a proclamation to the imprisoned spirits,
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The word sin there means to miss the mark of perfection. You could be close, but no bullseye, and you are thus not perfect.


ph 4:8 This is why it says, "After he went up into the heights, he led captivity captive and he gave gifts to mankind."
Eph 4:9 Now this phrase, "he went up," what can it mean if not that he first went down into the lower parts, that is, the earth?
Eph 4:10 The one who went down is himself the one who also went up, far above all of heaven, in order to fill all things.
Thus those who had passed were waiting in paradise for the coming Messiah to take them home.


Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now I will use the King James version of the bible for my next question. If Jesus was/is God would he lie? certainly not! If God Jesus told you there was a being greater then him would you believe it? yes,I would. Let's look at this verse from the KJV of the bible--John 14:28.......my Father is greater then I-- God Jesus is telling that there is a God that is greater then him so wouldn't logic dictate that you worship the Father for Jesus himself did and told the people AND Satan himself that his father is the only one you worship--Matthew 4:10This subject has several interesting aspects to it. One, Jesus was very mindful of the belief within that culture that the son can never be greater than the father he came from. Without the father there is no son. Second, he was putting himself in the position of being God's son. This was a point that drove the Pharisees nuts. One can claim to be a prophet, teacher, student, but never the "son" of God. So, by Jesus claiming God as his father, he is saying a whole lot there. Now, let's deal with this whole "greater" aspect and look at the issue of the body, soul and spirit. The body houses the spirit which is the intellect of the soul. Jesus says he and the father are one, and always is obedient to the father. The Soul is the foundation which gives unction to the Spirit and is manifested in the body. The body can only be in one place at a time while the spirit is unlimited and the soul again is the foundation.

Also, the body can only do what the mind and soul desire. Thus, Yeshua was the perfect being in example of the mind and heart of God the father.


Was Yeshua / Jesus worshiped?


Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.


Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
The Greek for worship is:

G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

Did Jesus accept worship:


Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
Mat 14:32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
What about others worshiping him?


Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Luk 24:53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
As for the verse you quote, what was happening? Satan was testing Yeshua and said:


Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Satan loves to use the word to make people mess up. Jesus can't worship himself, he worships his Father. Satan was offering Jesus all power on earth as the King of Earth if he would worship him! Jesus quoted bible back to Satan to reproach him and thus we have verse 10. Since Jesus and the father are one, and he accepted the worship of his followers, I do not see an issue here. If you have an issue with it then don't do it, but do you believe Jesus is the living son of God or just some man or teacher with a good conscience?


Let's backtrack to the Old Testament and look at this verse--Isaiah 7:14---Now since God gave us a sign that "Jesus" would be born of a virgin and his name would be called Immanuel then why is Jesus called Jesus??? They would have been calling Jesus Immanuel back then don't you think? unless someone has tampered with the bible.....hmmm Saul/Paul maybe ? but that's another story.Called is:

H7121
קרא
qârâ'
kaw-raw'
A primitive root (rather identical with H7122 through the idea of accosting a person met); to call out to (that is, properly address by name, but used in a wide variety of applications): - bewray [self], that are bidden, call (for, forth, self, upon), cry (unto), (be) famous, guest, invite, mention, (give) name, preach, (make) proclaim (-ation), pronounce, publish, read, renowned, say.

The word Immanuel is:

H6005
עמּנוּאל
‛immânû'êl
im-maw-noo-ale'
From H5973 and H410 with suffix pronoun inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel, a name of Isaiah’s son: - Immanuel.

His name was Yeshua, meaning God's salvation, and are you implying that people did not proclaim that in the person of Yeshua, the people did not say, "God is with us?" I dare say, that they said it often that God sent Yeshua, was present with them in Yeshua, and it's the very reason the religion lawyers / word smiths called Pharisees and scribes hated him.



The first verse in the bible is a lie ....in the beginning God created the heaven and the EarthWoe, that's a pretty strong statement. You have already demonstrated to me your lack of biblical scholarship. I would seriously reconsider claiming anything in the bible is a lie if I were you. Go ahead, but I highly recommend no one stand within 10 feet of you for a while.


Creation itself is above all IMHO.

The God of the bible was an E.T
Jesus never existed but <J> Immanuel did--I questioned that Isaiah verse before I ever heard of Billy Meier or the Talmud of Jmmanuel
John 1:1 is a lie - thought comes before a wordFirst of all, Yeshua is the word made flesh. God spoke and there was light. What did God speak? Words. Have a nice day!



It's not a question of who's right or wrong it's a question of truth and as "Jesus" himself said in John 8:32--And ye shall know the truth,and the truth shall make you free."-- that is if people aren't scared to let it ,the truth, set them free.......

Well, it does matter who's right and who's wrong, the question is who is the judge.

[truth4me]

The bible is filled with lies and truth. Now for all the Jesus worshippers,no disrespect intended, Answer me this. You have to accept Jesus as your savior and that he died on the cross for our sins. Most church going people I know will tell you what I just stated yet, if that is the case tell me where Moses is or where is Daniel or Job ,Ruth,Soloman plus other Old Testament figures for they all were dead before "Jesus" was even born. How could you accept someone as your savior if you are dead before he was even born?

I hope you will accept a bible answer since you are using the bible to raise questions. Questions are good, because with proper study, answers are found. I happen to think a lot of what some churches teach is not biblical, and things that are biblical they don't teach. There are lots of issues that come up in the bible like your question and it's not a reason to throw the bible out in my opinion, it is an opportunity to study it more deeply and get to know our father a little bit better. Actually, the bible does address this very point:

Prior to Messiah, the place the dead went was split into two areas. One area was the abode of the righteous and the other was the abode of the wicked. We see in 1 Peter,


1Pe 3:18 For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit;
1Pe 3:19 and in this form he went and made a proclamation to the imprisoned spirits,
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The word sin there means to miss the mark of perfection. You could be close, but no bullseye, and you are thus not perfect.


ph 4:8 This is why it says, "After he went up into the heights, he led captivity captive and he gave gifts to mankind."
Eph 4:9 Now this phrase, "he went up," what can it mean if not that he first went down into the lower parts, that is, the earth?
Eph 4:10 The one who went down is himself the one who also went up, far above all of heaven, in order to fill all things.
Thus those who had passed were waiting in paradise for the coming Messiah to take them home.


Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now I will use the King James version of the bible for my next question. If Jesus was/is God would he lie? certainly not! If God Jesus told you there was a being greater then him would you believe it? yes,I would. Let's look at this verse from the KJV of the bible--John 14:28.......my Father is greater then I-- God Jesus is telling that there is a God that is greater then him so wouldn't logic dictate that you worship the Father for Jesus himself did and told the people AND Satan himself that his father is the only one you worship--Matthew 4:10This subject has several interesting aspects to it. One, Jesus was very mindful of the belief within that culture that the son can never be greater than the father he came from. Without the father there is no son. Second, he was putting himself in the position of being God's son. This was a point that drove the Pharisees nuts. One can claim to be a prophet, teacher, student, but never the "son" of God. So, by Jesus claiming God as his father, he is saying a whole lot there. Now, let's deal with this whole "greater" aspect and look at the issue of the body, soul and spirit. The body houses the spirit which is the intellect of the soul. Jesus says he and the father are one, and always is obedient to the father. The Soul is the foundation which gives unction to the Spirit and is manifested in the body. The body can only be in one place at a time while the spirit is unlimited and the soul again is the foundation.

Also, the body can only do what the mind and soul desire. Thus, Yeshua was the perfect being in example of the mind and heart of God the father.


Was Yeshua / Jesus worshiped?


Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.


Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
The Greek for worship is:

G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

Did Jesus accept worship:


Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
Mat 14:32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
What about others worshiping him?


Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Luk 24:53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
As for the verse you quote, what was happening? Satan was testing Yeshua and said:


Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Satan loves to use the word to make people mess up. Jesus can't worship himself, he worships his Father. Satan was offering Jesus all power on earth as the King of Earth if he would worship him! Jesus quoted bible back to Satan to reproach him and thus we have verse 10. Since Jesus and the father are one, and he accepted the worship of his followers, I do not see an issue here. If you have an issue with it then don't do it, but do you believe Jesus is the living son of God or just some man or teacher with a good conscience?


Let's backtrack to the Old Testament and look at this verse--Isaiah 7:14---Now since God gave us a sign that "Jesus" would be born of a virgin and his name would be called Immanuel then why is Jesus called Jesus??? They would have been calling Jesus Immanuel back then don't you think? unless someone has tampered with the bible.....hmmm Saul/Paul maybe ? but that's another story.Called is:

H7121
קרא
qârâ'
kaw-raw'
A primitive root (rather identical with H7122 through the idea of accosting a person met); to call out to (that is, properly address by name, but used in a wide variety of applications): - bewray [self], that are bidden, call (for, forth, self, upon), cry (unto), (be) famous, guest, invite, mention, (give) name, preach, (make) proclaim (-ation), pronounce, publish, read, renowned, say.

The word Immanuel is:

H6005
עמּנוּאל
‛immânû'êl
im-maw-noo-ale'
From H5973 and H410 with suffix pronoun inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel, a name of Isaiah’s son: - Immanuel.

His name was Yeshua, meaning God's salvation, and are you implying that people did not proclaim that in the person of Yeshua, the people did not say, "God is with us?" I dare say, that they said it often that God sent Yeshua, was present with them in Yeshua, and it's the very reason the religion lawyers / word smiths called Pharisees and scribes hated him.



The first verse in the bible is a lie ....in the beginning God created the heaven and the EarthWoe, that's a pretty strong statement. You have already demonstrated to me your lack of biblical scholarship. I would seriously reconsider claiming anything in the bible is a lie if I were you. Go ahead, but I highly recommend no one stand within 10 feet of you for a while.


Creation itself is above all IMHO.

The God of the bible was an E.T
Jesus never existed but <J> Immanuel did--I questioned that Isaiah verse before I ever heard of Billy Meier or the Talmud of Jmmanuel
John 1:1 is a lie - thought comes before a wordFirst of all, Yeshua is the word made flesh. God spoke and there was light. What did God speak? Words. Have a nice day!



It's not a question of who's right or wrong it's a question of truth and as "Jesus" himself said in John 8:32--And ye shall know the truth,and the truth shall make you free."-- that is if people aren't scared to let it ,the truth, set them free.......

Well, it does matter who's right and who's wrong, the question is who is the judge.IF there is a resurrection of the dead then how can the people of the old testament be in paradise? So if your already in paradise you still get brought back to be judged and sent back to paradise? What about the people who died while Jesus was 10 years old before he started preaching the word and who never heard him? Yes ,I will stand by my statement that the 1st verse in the bible is a lie and no one will change my view of it. God of the bible is an malevolent E.T who loves to be worshipped. Creation is above any enitiy. Last but not least ,you or no one on this forum or anywhere is better then I nor am I better then anyone else.

[Unified Serenity]

I already answered you, but your mind is made up. There is a story of a gulf in sheol between the righteous and unrighteous, and those on the unrighteous side desire just a drop of water. Well, believe what you want to believe, that's fine. I just hope anyone reading the difference of your cherry picking scriptures verses what I shared can see one of us actually studies the bible for truth and not because we seem to have an axe to grind. I have not seen you really offer proof. You seem to have something against a God who has standards. I guess we will know eventually who is correct.

[kreagle]

Dear kreagle and others who are interested.


Thank you for your concern and your Bible texts, which have shown me again that this god of your Bible will not be my friend. Sorry.
Nor do the words in the bible mean more to me than the myths and legends belonging to the ancient Greeks.
This Rex Mundi of your Bible will only love us when we'll worship him, serve him and follow his rules. Under His Conditions.......

My true Friend is the God of Unconditional Love who resides above man made religions and their gods, but can also be found inside All and Everything.
This Friend doesn't ask me to serve Him,.... like I will not ask anybody to serve me. (So you don't need to be my servant, dear kreagle)

* He doesn't set rules, as He allows me to make my mistakes and learn from them, as a gift or a present....

* He will forgive me my "sins" without condition, as I will forgive myself.... so I can forgive others.

* He is honest with me, as I will be honest with myself,.... so I can be honest with others.



Through self-forgiveness and self-honesty one will be able to release one's fear and become Free - Love - God - Pure Light - the Energy of all Matter and beyond....
There will even be no Death.



Love and Peace to all and everything from the bottom of my heart.

Aho, Mitakuye Oyasin

****

This is the best I can offer, as I'm not a native speaker, nor a good writer.

I did my best to explain where I come from.


heyokah,


One thing is "certain", in that, the time is rapidly approaching when we will "all" be faced with......"the conclusion of the whole matter" (My signature)


It will then be time for us "all" to......."gather up our purchases,....(whatever we've accumulated over our lifetime),......and make our way to the front for "checkout".


There will be "those" who will eagerly take what they've "accumulated" to the "checkout counter",.....for they have "spent a lifetime" of building, wisely on the "foundation of the apostles and prophets,....Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone". Ephesians 2:20


Ephesians 2:19-21
King James Version (KJV)

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:


"Others" will also make their way to the front,....with their "buggy" filled with a variety, and assortment, of things that they, too, have "accumulated in their lifetime". Unfortunately, though,...."the fulfillment of Ephesians 2:20 in their own personal lives",......won't be included in their "buggy". Some will look down into the "contents of their buggy",.....and perhaps see this.....


Austin Cline ( avowed atheist author/leader)
http://i48.tinypic.com/35l6jkl.jpg


(note: a personal "friend/business associate", of mine,......(who readily "admits" that he is an atheist,....and doesn't beat around the bush about it),.....looked at "this picture", also, and agreed with me that the very appearance of this was "evil".)


I would certainly suggest that if you don't see the "experience of Ephesians 2:20" in your "buggy" as....."check out time approaches",.......that it's probably "high time" for you, the shopper, to "put some,.... "certain things",... back on the shelf",.....and to "shop around some more"!!!


Shop wisely, my friend(s),.........Love and Peace,.......kreagle

[heyokah]

Good luck to you too....



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-452228146235353070


Love and Peace to all and everything from the bottom of my heart.

Aho, Mitakuye Oyasin

[truth4me]

I already answered you, but your mind is made up. There is a story of a gulf in sheol between the righteous and unrighteous, and those on the unrighteous side desire just a drop of water. Well, believe what you want to believe, that's fine. I just hope anyone reading the difference of your cherry picking scriptures verses what I shared can see one of us actually studies the bible for truth and not because we seem to have an axe to grind. I have not seen you really offer proof. You seem to have something against a God who has standards. I guess we will know eventually who is correct.I don't have no axe to grind AND I respect your belief. I live a moral life. I will not lie,nor cheat nor kill knowly. I do my best not to swear. I'm not cherry picking anything IMHO . The bible has been altered thru time to trap people in religion by entites who reincarnate. You already have judged me in your mind because I say Jesus wasn't real. Just like this forum there's info-truth disinfo-lies threw in to fool us. If you really seek truth then read the Talmud of Jmmanuel and if your God is who you think he is then you won't be scared to read it. I do believe in a Creator God who created humans but did not create Creation. Spirituality is the key not religion for religion keeps people apart. Peace be with you....

[observer]

[....snip]
I think your post was very thought-provoking and I read it a few times. I agree that this world is full of evil and depravity. I attribute that to the "prince of this world", Satan. Am I understanding you correctly, that you're saying who we refer to as "Jesus" is the same individual being described in Mark 8:44? Understand, I am not a Bible expert, so I'm asking you this question seriously and with no sarcasm, at all. Is it your belief that Yeshua ben Joseph is the true Christ and Yahweh is actually an imposter or demonic entity? Am I correct that you believe there is a "God", but that the being that many people believe is God's son, is actually someone other than that?

Finally, I want you to know that I respect your journey and what you obviously have found as the answer for you. Maybe I should be putting this in a PM to you, but how did you come to your answers? Where did you begin your study that brought you to where you are?

I thanked your post, because I respect your beliefs and your right to express them. (which you did very well)

You have only slightly confused the message, GCS1103.

1. I am saying that these words found in John 8:44 are among some of the few actual words that the mortal man, Yeshua ben Joseph spoke during his lifetime. No fundamentalist theologian can give a reasonable explanation to this New Testament verse.

2. That these words were recorded as the fictional character, Jesus' words, and were included in the corrupted version of his lifework, the New Testament.

3. I am suggesting, this was a mistake on the part of the early church fathers, who were responsible for deleting most of the words of the mortal man, Yeshua ben Joseph, and re-editing his words to make him appear to be a part of the Trinity. The actual words of Yeshua ben Joseph can be found in the fifty (or so) books that were excluded from the New Testament by agent provocateurs of the Roman Empire, the likes of Saint Irenaeus, and others.

4. I am saying, Yeshua ben Joseph, was a mortal man. He lived and he was filled with the Holy Spirit, as have many other mortal men.... as is possible for every one of us. He was one of many 'Christed' figures from all sorts of theological understanding found throughout antiquity.

5. I am saying, this mortal man, Yeshua's, life story was corrupted into a theology known as Trinity Christianity. This was done through the clever manipulation of telepathic thought from hyperdimensional entities.

6. I am saying, these entities, herein referred to as reptilian aliens, or archons, are one-in-the-same with Yahweh/Jehovah.

And in conclusion, Satan/The Devil/Yahweh/Jehovah/Rex Mundi/The King of this World, is not the "One True God" referred to by the mortal man, Yeshua ben Joseph. Yeshua was ministering to a "God of Unconditional Love".

This fact can be verified by looking-up the original New Testament text written in Greek. Wherever Yeshua ben Joseph referred to a God of Love, the word 'agape' is used. Agape means unconditional love, as in the love a mother has for her child. There are several words that could have been used in Greek, but the authors of the text chose the word 'agape'.


The rest of your question will require many hours of research on your part, and a true desire to follow the evidence as I have. You could start by going back through this thread and following all the links that have been provided. Then, follow the links that are provided on those links.

This Biblical manipulation business spans a period of more than a thousand years. It begin around the year 800 BCE with the Old Testament and with a question, who were the Israelites, actually? Why was it necessary for them to creat a false history for themselves.

The manipulation continues for nearly a four hundred year period of time, beginning at the turn of the common era, between the 'alleged' crucifixion of the man known as Yeshua ben Joseph and the final canonization of the Bible, sometime around the year 390 CE. A period in which every bit of knowledge regarding the man Yeshua ben Joseph was destroyed, including all of his devout followers through genocide, and replaced with a fictitious version of his life - as documented in the New Testament. This was all done by elite elements within the Roman Empire with the design purpose of creating a universally accepted religion and to continue the control wielded by the Empire into the present era.

The evidence on this is all available. Anyone can follow the links. You must have the desire to do so.

[observer]

[....snip]
There are many trees in the garden and among those tree of life and tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Trees represent possibilities in vastness of the existence.

Garden of Eden was outside of time and space as we know it today.

So by partaking with any tree ,one would venture into many possibilities from this timeless Garden .
One of the possibility was tree of knowledge of good and evil.
[....snip]


If it is accurate, as you say, the Garden was an experience outside of third density reality, i.e. something that happened within another dimension, than where did the "good and evil" part of the fruit of knowledge come from.

It is only within third density that duality occurs.

So, who added the part about good v. evil? Could that possibly have been something added by man?

Is it possible the God of Unconditional Love isn't concerned with good and evil?
Is it possible that duality was created by Yahweh - the Rex Mundi of the Cathar - in order to keep souls locked into this place of the 'fallen' ??? To feed on energies, like a crop???
Is it possible that once one has released their self from this matrix of control - this farming operation of Rex Mundi - and ascended into the higher realms of existence, all knowledge will be viewed without conditions attached? .... as in 'unconditional'?

[observer]

[....snip]
......can you "hear" the dinner bell ringing?,....my dear friend, GCS1103,.....and "all" fellow Avalonians?
[....snip]


I find it ironic, kreagle, that in the middle of a debate where I have suggested this particular third density is a soul-farming operation, with the design purpose of feeding hyperdimensional entities, you should make a statement suggesting something positive regarding the ringing of the "dinner bell".

My impression of your agenda is that you consider yourself an agent of this Yahweh/Rex Mundi, almost as if you are luring the little children into the car with the promise of candy....

My caution to all reading this thread:

At the time any of you may find your eternal spirit gathered around the feet of Yahweh in another dimension, perhaps singing kumbayah in a state of hypnotized delusion, please, be cautious when asked to be the "guest of honor" at the grand banquet - your eternal soul may just be the 'main course'.


Post #1485:
"You really need a "true Friend",....who will not lie to you,....or mislead you!"


I ask, what exactly is your agenda, sir?

You are selling tickets to a failed theology in nearly every comment you make.
This theology has been used by the elite of the species - in one form or another - for the best part of three thousand years (if you include the times of the Old Testament into this picture) - to cause the most obscene suffering on his fellow man.
Yet, you persist to insist this theology is all about Love, and that it has been man who misinterpreted the word - with the full knowledge that most of the text has been manipulated by man.


It is my suggestion, this manipulation has been through the skillful process of telepathic thought communication, from an hyperdimensional species, designed to enslave the Mass of Humanity into a cleverly designed feeding process.

It is time for a NEW theology.... a NEW understanding....

It is time to cast-out Rex Mundi, free one's self from the matrix, and go with the God of Unconditional Love - the accurate translation of the Greek work 'agape'.

[lookbeyond]

Hello, I would like to share something.
This is personal but I think probably everyone on a site such as this has a story/experience/yearning for truth and the more information we share, the clearer (hopefully) the picture becomes.

I was brought up christian, rarely went to church but prayed daily myself (from a very small girl).

Ten years ago I feared for my childs life, I prayed in a desperation that words cannot express
Almost instantly above my sleeping childs head were black hands not touching but protectively over her head, forearms extending downwards.
These hands and arms were black as I mentioned, there were brightly coloured bands/bangles on each forearm 2 on one arm and 3 on the other.
They were neither male nor female but looked- Divine. They were outlined in a platinum light.
These hands remained for a prolonged period of time-as I made myself look away and back again, they were still there.

Iam sharing this to provide Hope for those who may need some, there is Goodness/Love for us

Love, lookbeyond

[Beren]

If it is accurate, as you say, the Garden was an experience outside of third density reality, i.e. something that happened within another dimension, than where did the "good and evil" part of the fruit of knowledge come from.

It is only within third density that duality occurs.

So, who added the part about good v. evil? Could that possibly have been something added by man?


Is it possible the God of Unconditional Love isn't concerned with good and evil?
Is it possible that duality was created by Yahweh - the Rex Mundi of the Cathar - in order to keep souls locked into this place of the 'fallen' ??? To feed on energies, like a crop???
Is it possible that once one has released their self from this matrix of control - this farming operation of Rex Mundi - and ascended into the higher realms of existence, all knowledge will be viewed without conditions attached? .... as in 'unconditional'?




Alright now we're talking here!

God as Creator of all that is encompasses all.
I mean everything that exist even duality of good and evil.

Duality is allowed to exist as a stage where soul goes though to experience aspects of existence.

Eventually soul outgrows need to dwell in duality dimensions.

God is totality of all that is and all that isn't since God is Creator ,an ultimate power of life.
Everything that came from God is part of God despite partial misunderstandings of those parts.

So even Satan or Dark enemy or evil itself is within God, since nothing can operate if God pulls out life force.
Question is WHY God allowed this?

Simply God is all powerful and all can be changed and altered or perfected. All.
Many things are beyond our understanding and maybe we currently cannot grasp this.

The need of life to grow and expresses itself is ever present driving force.
Evil was not directly created by God but by singular units of God - spirits ,souls and such.
God allowed them to create this vortex of energy loaded with negativity that became evil as we know it .

Since the first imperative of God is free will , by this it is allowed to each personification of God to perform free will and do as it so pleases.

Second thing is to set up the law of cause and effect.
You can do all that you want but for every choice there comes according effect.

Now some souls tried to play to avoid effect of their choices but this cannot be.
Hence we have evil.
Evil can be explained as eternal desire of avoidance the consequences that turned bad.

By constant effort of avoiding the consequence - you build up tangled web of choices with all of the effects they carry and thus you have a mess or chaos.
Also by constant strife against this primal law of God of cause and effect ,you waste your energy of life, your inner life spark of flame, thus you change your inner beauty into ugliness since you are devolving yourself of life force of original intent- beauty and love.

Hence we have demons and monsters in many forms - beings devoided of their inner beauty.

Remember they were once beautiful souls and spirits but their current self creation became ugly because of their previous choice ,some lasted eons...

Now back to the Garden of Eden and trees.

Since everything exist in God continually ,this possibility of evil and duality of good and evil was a possibility of manifestation that eventually became alive.
We enacted it.

I mean we as souls and spirits of God.
By our free will we activated this reality and dimension in Universe.
Not just on Earth, whole universe.

But in God's reality this is a speck of existence, in the size of one atom Vs. whole Universe.

This is not an exaggeration but true portrait of who big is God, endless is a concept hardly imaginable by finite beings in body though their essence is endless.


So now we have this man and woman in perfect unity with God but as a new experience in flesh and spirit joined on Earth in this moment- without experience and judgement.

Then comes at stage a spirit named later on Satan or Lucifer or Shaitan or Devil or Serpent of deceiver or Dragon...

Now this spirit tries ( successfully) to make it happen that man and woman venture into this duality. To by tasting the fruit , open the portal and go down the rabbit hole.

Now observe carefully here, man and woman see this tree in the Garden as well as they see all other trees BUT are not attracted towards it!

They do not have a desire to venture into duality.
Now comes serpent and does what it does.

Observe further and see that this serpent ALREADY fell to the rabbit hole and live already in duality but as its nature remained spiritual unlike man's who is spirit joined with flesh, serpent is able to be independent from physical ills but spiritually is infected by dimension of duality.

If this serpent (now ) didn't tasted or created this still dormant possibility for evil , it would not tried to lure anyone into duality.
Since it would stay in Love with God and in unity conscience.

So this now infected spirit lures this new creation into duality.
Creation accepts ,thus chooses this game hence accepts effects of choice ...

P.S.

I will continue is second post in an hour or so...

[greybeard]

Sharing is good.
When I was 15 we were racing from Findhorn to Cromarty in open sea--it had ben calm for hours suddenly a storm blew up.
The Dinghy capsized upside down, we climbed on top- the waves crashing over us, the dinghy was sinking. It was that bad that the rescue boat ran for home towing as many boats as it could. A fishery protection boat passed in the distance, it did not see us. I prayed to God for help. A crewman went to the back of his boat, a thing he did not normally do and at the distance of about a half mile saw us, We were rescued.
I survived alcoholism through prayer to God and AA arrived.
That started me on the spiritual path, I have not had alcohol for 37 years
Coincidences led me to India three times to be in the presence of enlightened
The last visit there I was swimming in the Indian ocean--calm water-- then out of no where a wave crashed me to the bottom- I surfaced winded --same again, down I went, twice more and I knew that was that--- I surrendered to the will of God --- I surfaced and the sea was still and rescuers in sight.

As a child I had a sledging accident and burst my spleen--- the prayer of my parents and family saved me.

I did not pray to Jesus but to God.

I believe anyone who prays to God will receive help--- regardless of their religion or lack of it.

Respecting those of any faith or none.

Chris

[greybeard]

Following on from Beren
Yogananda said " The darkness came from the same place as the light"

Chris