The Bible

[RedeZra]

let the Bible speak

to inform and explore what the Book says about our origin history and purpose


i am convinced that the Creator or rather Projector is the Source and Sustenance of the Creation or Projection

and furthermore that this Almighty Spirit interferes and intervenes with His world whenever He wants

which is probably much more often than we think


i believe the Bible paints a true if not complete picture about our Creator in this Age

and the Book tells us that mankind has an Adversary who is a finite fallen spirit

and that this fallen spirit is 'the god of this age'



"In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2 Corinthians 4:4

[Apex]

If only the bible included all the original text (there are over 48 books missing/are very condensed) like the "missing years of Jesus", "psalms of Sodom", etc. Notice how no books are written by women in the bible. Also in the bible gods create man in less than a paragraph, so I am sure there was a book about that. So your 'bible' was edited severely in 400AD when they made the one book for the whole Roman empire to have one simple religion. So most of the spiritual connection has only limited description and so is separate so people can never understand it and have to look to priest's and bishops for this knowledge.

[RedeZra]

If only the bible included all the original text (there are over 48 books missing/are very condensed) like the "missing years of Jesus", "psalms of Sodom", etc. Notice how no books are written by women in the bible.

So your 'bible' was edited severely in 400AD when they made the one book for the whole Roman empire to have one simple religion.

the Bible is a Big book composed of several smaller books and there is nothing wrong in reading and researching the books that didn't make it into Canon

but the important 'red thread' in the Bible is Jesus Christ


i am sure there are also books authored by the Adversary to cast doubts and confusion and i am confident that none of them made it into Canon

[Daughter of Time]

The Bible is very selective. It is not the pure word of God. The men who wrote it expounded their own belief systems and incorporated them into the works. Thus, there's only so much that can be trusted in the Holy Book.

[RedeZra]

The Bible is very selective. It is not the pure word of God. The men who wrote it expounded their own belief systems and incorporated them into the works. Thus, there's only so much that can be trusted in the Holy Book.

the Bible is a written recollection and a record of events as witnessed by those who wrote it

the point is that we should not rest in the trust of book knowledge but seek Him whom the Book speaks about

The Spirit Almighty

[Loveisall21]

It's all about the Sun and our solar system. The bible is a very special book but it is not meant to be taken literally. I know saying that will ruffle some feathers . I get that. Reading that would have made me upset many years ago. The truth is sometimes a bitter pill to swallow, but it always sets you free in the end.

But hey no worries, it's just my opinion.

Z-17BNU7L6g

BkkbUqfAjCk

[Lord Sidious]

The Bible is very selective. It is not the pure word of God. The men who wrote it expounded their own belief systems and incorporated them into the works. Thus, there's only so much that can be trusted in the Holy Book.

the Bible is a written recollection and a record of events as witnessed by those who wrote it

the point is that we should not rest in the trust of book knowledge but seek Him whom the Book speaks about

The Spirit Almighty

What is funny, is that not one included gospel is written by an eyewitness, but those not included were written by eyewitnesses.
And FYI, I doubt that your wordsmithery and general evasion of questions is helping your cause.

[RedeZra]

What is funny, is that not one included gospel is written by an eyewitness, but those not included were written by eyewitnesses.

the author of the gospel of Mark was Mark the Evangelist - the companion of the apostle Peter - according to tradition and the early church fathers

the author of the gospel of Matthew was the apostle Matthew - the tax-collector and disciple of Jesus - according to tradition and the early church fathers

the author of the gospel of Luke and Acts was Luke the Evangelist - the companion of the Apostle Paul - according to tradition and the early church fathers

the author of the gospel of John was 'the disciple whom Jesus loved' - John 20:2 and he was none other than the the Apostle John

most if not all the letters of Paul was written by Paul himself and nobody argues this


i could go on and on but it's not my point to convince those who have made up their mind

for them no amount of evidence will change their believes



And FYI, I doubt that your wordsmithery and general evasion of questions is helping your cause.

im sorry but i can't care less what you think about me or my words

i find joy in sharing truth for truth's own sake for truth shall set us free

[Lord Sidious]

According to someone I trust who was a priest, no, they are not the authors.
How could they have written them if they were not written until around 100 years after jesus was meant to have left?
And your lack of care is at odds with what you claim you are and stand for.

[RedeZra]

It's all about the Sun and our solar system. The bible is a very special book but it is not meant to be taken literally. I know saying that will ruffle some feathers . I get that. Reading that would have made me upset many years ago. The truth is sometimes a bitter pill to swallow, but it always sets you free in the end.



im sure the Bible speaks on several levels but you have formed this opinion by trusting men

or perhaps wolves in sheeps clothing


the establishment decides what we will think and so supress truths and propagate lies

we cannot longer distinguish truth from false without the Spirit of Truth guiding us

[RedeZra]

According to someone I trust who was a priest, no, they are not the authors.
How could they have written them if they were not written until around 100 years after jesus was meant to have left?
And your lack of care is at odds with what you claim you are and stand for.

i dont see how you can put your trust in modern men living 2000 years after the events


there is no date on the scrolls which make up the Bible so it is just a modern guess as to when they were written down

but remember the establishment is against the Christ and the Bible


i care about you but i dont care what you think of me

[Lord Sidious]

According to someone I trust who was a priest, no, they are not the authors.
How could they have written them if they were not written until around 100 years after jesus was meant to have left?
And your lack of care is at odds with what you claim you are and stand for.

i dont see how you can put your trust in modern men living 2000 years after the events


there is no date on the scrolls which make up the Bible so it is just a modern guess as to when they were written down

but remember the establishment is against the Christ and the Bible


i care about you but i dont care what you think of me

Well, I don't know how they date the writings, as I never cared enough to find out.
But, knowing my friend and how thorough he is, he checks everything out.
He told me that the church knows far more than they are allowed to say.
And no, the establishment isn't against your bible or your jesus, they ARE the establishment, or haven't you noticed?

[DevilPigeon]

.
.
.
i am sure there are also books authored by the Adversary to cast doubts and confusion and i am confident that none of them made it into Canon

But surely a book that is comprised mostly of "the good bits" can't be trusted or relied on, never mind the fact that it's been the foundation of a major religion for the past 2000 years...

The concept is comparable to having a book on Hitler that only mentions stuff like he didn't eat meat, he was kind to his mum and he liked cats....

[travellor]

What I have pondered on many times is what time span does the bible cover. I believe the world was probably "created" in 6 periods days I don't think is right. As for a creator of all things I do think the Earth can create with out the help, maybe hindrance of and outside force. As for the book its self a very good guide but like all written words can be interpreted by the individual as they see fit.
If you wish to believe in a creator of all things then fair enough but the excuse we have free will, when asked why the creator does not do more for the suffering of his/her/its children is wearing a little thin.

[TruseEthker]

I wonder, what is the original language of the "original bible"? Please think about it...
If we understand the original one, there wont be any confusing things such as "the 6 peroids days" thing, etc.

[Mu2143]

What the Bible is teaching is what you need to do to get it right only its teachings has been hijacked by the church and turned it in to a religion. And since Religion is a replacement for relationship it will not get you in to the kingdom of heaven!

Most of everything I have been reseaching is releated back to the bible, but because of many closed minded Christians who have been led by the church a stray. Does with a closed mind rejected the truth when it presented in other form then what is written right in front of them in the Bible.
Does Luke Warm Christian claim they can see when they are blind!!

I also know that some things don't belong in the Bible and some thing are left out ,because of the works of the Vatican.
But like I said If you try to have a relationship with jezus Christ(Yeshua) true the holy spirit(GOD) you will be showen what is true and what is realy written in the Bible.

Because god is love and he can't lie ,but if you do not have this relationship and your not willing then you will get the half trued which leads you where you do not want to go!!

I know A lot of people being turned away from the word "Sinner", but it simple means NO LOVE. If you have no Love in you then it is the spirit of fear and fear leads to addictions because thats what it is.
Then you realize that DRUGS ,ALCOHOL,SEX,PORN,COMPUTER GAMES, TV and all does other thing of this world has NO LOVE in it.

Thats why the saying is If you love the things of this world then the LOVE of GOD is not in you. "Love the things of this world"=Addictions

The next step "Jezus Christ died for our sins" Well now we know what is written here, its because we had NO LOVE in us we nailed him to the cross. Because we hated the truth!
Then you start to understand what you realy are reading. We killed him ,because we did not knew what we where doing. Only small groupe of people knew what was going on ,but they could not do anything about it. Because of Free will!

Forgive them for they do not know what there doing!

[meeradas]

Man, i'm addicted to god, but i just can't follow books. What now?
All this talk here is completely superfluous.
That said, i's 'leaving the building'.

Good luck on your mission.

[TruseEthker]

"Love the things of this world"=Addictions

The next step "Jezus Christ died for our sins" Well now we know what is written here, its because we had NO LOVE in us we nailed him to the cross. Because we hated the truth!
Then you start to understand what you realy are reading. We killed him ,because we did not knew what we where doing. Only small groupe of people knew what was going on ,but they could not do anything about it. Because of Free will!

Forgive them for they do not know what there doing!

Love the things of this world is not the same with or equal to (=) addictions.
He died for our sin? Really?
Babies that haven't born already have sin then. and I born after many years He died, and He died because of my sin.
Ummm, maybe i'm wrong here, sorry...
But, I didn't kill Him. I'm honest in saying that.
Which are the one that is close minded anyway? the christians? or the people? or maybe you?:confused:
no offense ;)

[Beren]

Let us just be fair in observation and see that everything in this reality is hijacked.
Bible is a s hijacked as other works from God were. God worked and works through many forms and people ,God can't be limited but we are limiting it towards our understanding and through our filters.

How could a shepherd or fisherman from some thousands years ago explain frequencies, teleportation,telekinesis , telepathy ...?

What Ezekiel saw ... how possibly he could grasp what he was seeing???

Why angels appeared as humans - otherwise they would never comprehend their true form in that low level of consciousness.

So many questions... but before we judge so readily the Bible as well as many other books and works ,let us realize that we will judge ourselves for after all we allowed that establishment through time to become as it is now.

They forged every work that leads people back to God but that didn't stop God for calling us back.
God is still calling us back and Bible is one of the many invitations for the core message is intact.

[Mu2143]

"Love the things of this world"=Addictions

The next step "Jezus Christ died for our sins" Well now we know what is written here, its because we had NO LOVE in us we nailed him to the cross. Because we hated the truth!
Then you start to understand what you realy are reading. We killed him ,because we did not knew what we where doing. Only small groupe of people knew what was going on ,but they could not do anything about it. Because of Free will!

Forgive them for they do not know what there doing!

Love the things of this world is not the same with or equal to (=) addictions.
He died for our sin? Really?
Babies that haven't born already have sin then. and I born after many years He died, and He died because of my sin.
Ummm, maybe i'm wrong here, sorry...
But, I didn't kill Him. I'm honest in saying that.
Which are the one that is close minded anyway? the christians? or the people? or maybe you?:confused:
no offense ;)

I forgot to tell that the cause of our sin is because every person on the planet is demon possessed. The all seeing eye is the colective conscienceness of lucifer. Thats how we have build this civilization true demons without we nowing it. Because we do not now what we are doing.
Everyone on this planet is demon inspired and does the works of satan unless you have been saved from this.

Its like unpluging out of the Matrix like in that movie then your set free only your stilll in this world.
And you are thinking saving you from what , well what you can't see what is realy there.
There demons every where

I suggested to check out this site
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheJonathankleck?gl=US#g/u

[pharoah21]

A word from God teaching us about Christianity: "I AM JAHOVA. WORSHIP ME, OR ELSE! I HAVE CONSTRUCTED THE WORST IMAGINABLE TORTURE FOR THOSE WHO DISOBEY MY COMMANDS, AND THIS TORTURE WILL LAST FOR.........ETERNITY! NOW WORSHIP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yeah right go f*ck your dictating self

[Seikou-Kishi]

A word from God teaching us about Christianity: "I AM JAHOVA. WORSHIP ME, OR ELSE! I HAVE CONSTRUCTED THE WORST IMAGINABLE TORTURE FOR THOSE WHO DISOBEY MY COMMANDS, AND THIS TORTURE WILL LAST FOR.........ETERNITY! NOW WORSHIP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yeah right go f*ck your dictating self

Ah, but Pharoah, that's just God's Love...

[pharoah21]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SQ44FCDzSHY/TBMgWx1U_NI/AAAAAAAAAiE/WNQOh5MgFu4/s1600/contrajesuslovehell.jpg

[Fred Steeves]

God love ya RedeZra! I've gotta hand it to you, you are one tenacious son of gun. :thumb: Winning over souls for Jesus at Avalon must be like trying to pull teeth without a pair of pliers. Any converts yet that I've missed?

Carry on mate, go get em...:cheer2:

Cheers,
Fred

[Mu2143]

Going to hell of your own free will

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_7mvQ2mO9s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_7mvQ2mO9s

[RedeZra]

God love ya RedeZra! I've gotta hand it to you, you are one tenacious son of gun. :thumb: Winning over souls for Jesus at Avalon must be like trying to pull teeth without a pair of pliers. Any converts yet that I've missed?

Carry on mate, go get em...:cheer2:

Cheers,
Fred

thnx Fred ; )

soul fishing is bad business so i dont recomend it

but i actually believe this stuff so i cant help myself


---

that is one funny poster Pharoah21

and i mean that

but it's not really true

and i will explain

[Mu2143]

To Just add to this video what she is trying to say is when you have no love in you then your empty of it. GOD = pure energy = LOVE
So because thats is the way things work and your a being of energy and the energy is LOVE also known as the "I AM" your result of recreating your new self every day becomes ether LOVE or NOT at all

Thats the choice your making
Anger is only going to make things worse not better for your self

[Mu2143]

O BTW when you have made the choice then you become a demon or a son or daugther of the most high.
Just think about this !!

Why do you think SATAN can not speak the truth and only lie even if he wants to speak the truth for the same reason GOD can only speak the truth!!!

[kathymarie]

I must be foolish for entering a discussion on religion or politics.....but I'm compelled to do so. I grew up in a Christian family,loved and believed in God from an early age (from being read a Bible story book as a toddler), made an early (and sincere) decision to accept Jesus as saviour at 8 years old; grew up in church; led youth in church; was church pianist from age 12 on; re-dedicated myself as a teenager and was baptized by immersion in the local river; continued in the church during my thirties while raising my children and MAKING THEM MISERABLE WITH MY LEGALISM. You don't know my heart, RedEzra, so I understand that you will not take my words as truth. Something happened during my early forties that can only be described as a crisis of faith. Even though I was adamant in my faith, I studied science and tried to reconcile the two. Whenever there was a conflict I allowed my "faith" to win. Just blindly ignoring what my heart said to believe what WAS WRITTEN. Every time objectivity tried to get me to THINK I merely invoked the thought that this must be the "enemy of my soul" trying to defeat me. I've bound that sucker "in the Name of Jesus" so much...I spoke THE WORD---prayed THE WORD....AT my lowest and most questioning period of fasting and praying...the words of Jeremiah 31:33 came alive to me.....THAT HE WOULD WRITE HIS LAWS IN THEIR MINDS AND IN THEIR HEARTS ....I believe in a creator/source....I believe that entity is LOVE. The things that always bothered my heart, that I ignored, were the instances where the god of the Old Testament did and said things that were inconsistent with "his" personality/spirit. Those words of Jeremiah were like a beacon to me....that the truth will be written on our hearts...on the INSIDE....so that we don't have to rely on a written word which may be manipulated/rewritten/ or even misinterpreted without intention. Without going into too much detail and boring you with my journey here, let me just say that the truth that radiates and resonates with me is that there is a basic, underlying truth in the Bible. That thread of truth is love. I do believe that the creation story probably is a re-telling of the alien astronaut theory. I believe the truth about everything has been hi-jacked for our misinformation, manipulation and bondage. I will admit that I have regrets about "Jesus"....you're absolutely correct that there is a red thread throughout the Bible...from Genesis through the story of Rahab through the Old Testament prophecies and into the New Testament. But if everything else has been tainted why not that too? I can only go by what Spirit has revealed to me. Some days I would tell you I am envious of your strong belief in what I USED to believe. If I could go back to blind belief I would...some days...but not all. I feel like Neo after he
"awakens" on the ancient ship, in grubby clothes to a gray...but free...world. I wish you peace and love and blessings...not only for you but for all of us.

I might also add, though, that if you do due diligence in your research you will find the Gospels were written nearly a century after Jesus was supposed to have lived. Because they are "named" Matthew, Mark, Luke and John one shouldn't make the assumption they were the authors. The best and brightest of Bible scholars will tell you this....as well as additions later added...especially to the last chapter of Mark. Check it out for yourself with an open mind. There no harm in that....even the Old Testament says ( and I'll paraphrase because it's speaking about tithing) "prove Me and see...." If God really is God He can stand up to some scrutiny. I failed to mention that I actually went to seminary for awhile.

[RedeZra]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SQ44FCDzSHY/TBMgWx1U_NI/AAAAAAAAAiE/WNQOh5MgFu4/s1600/contrajesuslovehell.jpg

this is a fun poster

but truth be told it is not enough to believe Jesus is the Son of God to escape hell


so the poster could as well read

"I love you so much that even if you believe I am the Son of God you will go to hell"


why ? because even the demons in the Bible know that Jesus is the Son of God


"And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, "You are the Christ, the Son of God!" And He, rebuking, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ." - Luke 4:41

"And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" - Matthew 8:29


i know this is so radically different to what we have been brought up to believe

but again a fallen spirit is the god of this world in this age


the only solution or salvation is to seek Jesus with all our strength heart and mind

we have the free will to do so but will we ?


besides Jesus as the Living God is already working miracles and revivals in the world

touching many millions of souls and changing them on the spot


take one serious step towards God and He will take 100 steps towards us

[vibrations]

What can we do. It's everybody's believe system. So if you believe something, that's truth for you and period. And my truths comes from my believe system, no better, no worst than any other, but different. If I am tolerant enough to accept other people's opinion and try not to impose mine, than the things flow quite nicely. When something produce anger in me (like the bible is true story etc) then is the time, to work on me, to try to understand that everybody is free to believe what he wishes.

Trying to proof something which is impossible to proof (a bit too long ago) just by my opinion, has no sense.

[pharoah21]

Why do you think SATAN can not speak the truth and only lie even if he wants to speak the truth for the same reason GOD can only speak the truth!!!

You speak as if you're saying Satan is real and you had coffee with him and 'GOD' recently

[Mu2143]

Why do you think SATAN can not speak the truth and only lie even if he wants to speak the truth for the same reason GOD can only speak the truth!!!

You speak as if you're saying Satan is real and you had coffee with him and 'GOD' recently

In my dream I stood next to SATAN in forgiveness and I posted this dream here on avalon and yes I have been working to have a relationship with GOD by repenting or go back to the heart. this takes time and hardship

[Fred Steeves]

Some days I would tell you I am envious of your strong belief in what I USED to believe. If I could go back to blind belief I would...some days...but not all. I feel like Neo after he
"awakens" on the ancient ship, in grubby clothes to a gray...but free...world. I wish you peace and love and blessings...not only for you but for all of us.



Hi kathymarie, that reminds me of this: "Sometimes I wish to God I didn't know now, the things I didn't know then". It's too late of course to go back now, it can never be the same. Thank God, because at that point is where things really start to get interesting.

Cheers,
Fred

[DevilPigeon]

O BTW when you have made the choice then you become a demon or a son or daugther of the most high.
Just think about this !!

Why do you think SATAN can not speak the truth and only lie even if he wants to speak the truth for the same reason GOD can only speak the truth!!!

Surely an omnipotent god would have the ability to speak anything....??? :P

[RedeZra]

AT my lowest and most questioning period of fasting and praying...the words of Jeremiah 31:33 came alive to me.....THAT HE WOULD WRITE HIS LAWS IN THEIR MINDS AND IN THEIR HEARTS ....I believe in a creator/source....I believe that entity is LOVE.

Those words of Jeremiah were like a beacon to me....that the truth will be written on our hearts...on the INSIDE....so that we don't have to rely on a written word which may be manipulated/rewritten/ or even misinterpreted without intention.

hi Kathymarie


i believe as well that the laws are written in our minds and our hearts

so we shall know right from wrong

and conscience is a still small voice that tells us when we're wrong

still many carry on ignoring this gentle voice


but it is the laws and not the truths that are written in our minds and our hearts

to know the truth we need the Spirit of Truth or the Holy Dove Of God

the Comforter and the 3rd person in the Trinity


science is supressing much truths and planting fictions

but hello it is part of the establishment run by Satan


Jesus says "if you love Me then follow My commandments"

so if we by our own free will can walk in accordance with His commandments

then this is how we show our love to God

and surly most assuredly God loves those that walk in righteousness

[TruseEthker]

I have understood "something" here.
a little happy and then sad but,
Thank You All! :)

[RedeZra]

I have understood "something" here.
a little happy and then sad but,
Thank You All! :)

tell us ; )

[RMorgan]

I´ve read the Bible many times. It´s a great Sci-Fi book, a true best-seller. The thing supposedly happened more than 2000 years ago. There´s no way to prove it really happened.

If our civilization is completely extinguished and, some day in the far future, someone finds a Harry Potter book, he could very well claim that it was all real and convince people to follow this book and worship Harry Potter as the son of god.

[Mu2143]

Sci-Fi does not exsit there have been telling you the truth all along, but because people are spiritual blind and claim that they can seen. They will simple remain in the dark.
let put me it this way

If you can't find out what happened 2000 years ago then how are you going to figure out that you have been lied to. Where do you get the truth from!

How do you know what is truth. The Internet ??? if you can't discern what is true then your lost

[Seikou-Kishi]

Lol, it's the same here as it always has been with Chrisitianity "We've decided only we can see the truth, believe as we believe or you're blind. Oh, your arguments are no good, because you're blind" It really does you no credit to use such a disingenuous argument.

[RedeZra]

As for a creator of all things I do think the Earth can create with out the help, maybe hindrance of and outside force.

If you wish to believe in a creator of all things then fair enough but the excuse we have free will, when asked why the creator does not do more for the suffering of his/her/its children is wearing a little thin.

an Almighty Spirit is both an internal and external force

meaning there is no limit to this Spirit


i think that the Almighty is the Projector

and that He also has projected an Image of Himself in Heaven

which appearantly acts as an external God to us

but in all reality is an internal Spirit as well as external



here is much suffering in the world

but i hear all the time stories about how God has helped or healed someone

so we are not without watch or care

[Mu2143]

time to take this to the studio and do it professionally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkHn4MCV6_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkHn4MCV6_Y

[Fred Steeves]

go f*ck your dictating self

Thank you for the good laugh pharaoh. I think the true Creator holds great appreciation for that kind of spirit!

Cheers,
Fred

[RMorgan]

Sci-Fi does not exsit there have been telling you the truth all along, but because people are spiritual blind and claim that they can seen. They will simple remain in the dark.
let put me it this way

If you can't find out what happened 2000 years ago then how are you going to figure out that you have been lied to. Where do you get the truth from!

How do you know what is truth. The Internet ??? if you can't discern what is true then your lost

Actually, I don´t think we could get the truth from anywhere but from inside ourselves.

I also think that the so called truth is just incompatible with our minds. It´s just like trying to run a modern computer software inside a 386 computer.

In my opinion, our hardware is not advanced enough to run the truth program.

Who knows...Maybe we are only able to have a glimpse of the truth at the exact moment when we born and when we finally die.

However, it´s important for our evolution to keep looking.

Anyway, I´ll never allow anyone to push me external simplified notions of the truth. Along history, we have had our greatest and most brilliant minds working on it, and no one could get even close.

No book will tell me what to do, specially a book that was mostly used to control, instead of to enlighten.

You know...Things are not that simple. No man can say: - Hey, I´m the son of god. You´ll have to believe me. If you believe me you´ll be saved. - End it gets even worse, when another man say: - Hey, I represent the son of god, you have to believe me, and give me your money, and only then I´ll think about if I´ll save you or not - End it gets pretty nasty when another group of men say: - We represent god. You are pagans, so we will kill you and conquer your people and your land....

Please, don´t get me wrong...I´m just expressing my opinion. You can believe whatever you want and I´ll still respect you. Respect is the key here. If everyone really respected each other, we wouldn´t need any religion or any book to follow.

I´m not against the bible or christianity , I´m totally against all religions. IMO, religion is a man made think, orchestrated since the beginning to control.

Anyway, I can always change my mind. However, I´ve talked about this subject with many religious people and no one was able to change my mind yet.

Cheers,

Raf.

[Mu2143]

Thats what i'm trying say your only going to get the truth from the spirit and with the spirit of discernment you will get the bigger picture!!

I was only making a point , because we live in a hologaphic matrix of time and the real you is in the spirit realm holding a book etc.
The more spiritual light your shinning the better you see what is really written in a book or from the internet.

But if you have no love in you then there is no light and you will remain blind.
The more things you do out of love the more you see what you realy
are doing, but the trouble is that we started in darkness more or less
when we are born in this ages.

The closer your are with GOD the better you see. GOD is projecting this reality and when you get closer to him you realy see it for what is.

[Lord Sidious]

Sci-Fi does not exsit there have been telling you the truth all along, but because people are spiritual blind and claim that they can seen. They will simple remain in the dark.
let put me it this way

If you can't find out what happened 2000 years ago then how are you going to figure out that you have been lied to. Where do you get the truth from!

How do you know what is truth. The Internet ??? if you can't discern what is true then your lost

I don't need some book cobbled together by an emperor in 326 ad.
I am the truth.

[Mu2143]

http://duncanofinioan.wordpress.com/
Title "The Holiday Days"



Until the human race can care about itself, care about each other, truly care about those in need, it will stay covered in darkness. No matter how much love and light you believe you are projecting, it will not matter. You can have love and light coming out your ass. But until you are ready to physically, emotionally, and spiritually ” take care of each other” you will have nothing but darkness masquerading as love and light.

[eaglespirit]

Prompted to bring Montalk's current update here...seems rather relevant.

...
Over 80% of the Gospel of Thomas can be found distributed throughout the New Testament, but padded and deviated with the aforementioned artifices. The Gospel of Thomas contains all the meat and none of the dressing found in the New Testament. It is fundamentally subversive to the religious power structure, and it is of Gnostic disposition, including the 80% that are in the Bible. Thus the New Testament contains a Gnostic nucleus. The rest contains a mix of genuine wisdom from other sources and corruption with malicious intent.

The historical context and timing of these teachings, as well as their spiritual content and direction, says something about the role of the original Jesus Christ. It’s very similar to the role of other avatars such as Gautama Buddha. As I proposed in my Gnosis series, Jesus was an advanced soul who incarnated as a human in order to become a living vessel for a higher divine intelligence. There is a difference between Jesus the man and Christ the higher consciousness that became active in him, and can become active in us. The end goal of his legacy was for each of us to do likewise, and that is the basis of Gnostic belief. It was his intent that we follow in his example and succeed him, whereas the corrupted version of Christianity demands we remain in his shadow on our knees.

The Gnostics, more than any other sect in history, have suffered the greatest and harshest persecution by the Church. It is both ironic and expected that those who were closest to the original Christian teachings would become the greatest targets of those who hijacked the teachings. The greatest threat to any simulacrum is the original.

http://montalk.net/notes/on-the-historicity-of-jesus

[RMorgan]

http://duncanofinioan.wordpress.com/
Title "The Holiday Days"



Until the human race can care about itself, care about each other, truly care about those in need, it will stay covered in darkness. No matter how much love and light you believe you are projecting, it will not matter. You can have love and light coming out your ass. But until you are ready to physically, emotionally, and spiritually ” take care of each other” you will have nothing but darkness masquerading as love and light.

I agree 100%, my friend. I´ve seen many love and light hippies creating their own communities just to end up showing themselves as really selfish and egocentric bastards.

[kathymarie]

AT my lowest and most questioning period of fasting and praying...the words of Jeremiah 31:33 came alive to me.....THAT HE WOULD WRITE HIS LAWS IN THEIR MINDS AND IN THEIR HEARTS ....I believe in a creator/source....I believe that entity is LOVE.

Those words of Jeremiah were like a beacon to me....that the truth will be written on our hearts...on the INSIDE....so that we don't have to rely on a written word which may be manipulated/rewritten/ or even misinterpreted without intention.

hi Kathymarie


i believe as well that the laws are written in our minds and our hearts

so we shall know right from wrong

and conscience is a still small voice that tells us when we're wrong

still many carry on ignoring this gentle voice


but it is the laws and not the truths that are written in our minds and our hearts

to know the truth we need the Spirit of Truth or the Holy Dove Of God

the Comforter and the 3rd person in the Trinity


science is supressing much truths and planting fictions

but hello it is part of the establishment run by Satan


Jesus says "if you love Me then follow My commandments"



There's only one commandment He gave...and Jesus said "You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself....one these hinge the Law and the Prophets."
We don't show God we love God by doing anything...that's what the Pharisee's did....a relationship based on works. God doesn't have to see us "do"anything to know if we love or not.

Someone else posted a comment that it was hard work to get back to God....it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be a hard thing to be restored to a relationship with our Creator/Source---and that's assuming we can be out of relationship.

This isn't directed to RedEzra but to those of us who believe humanity may very well be the product of alien genetic manipulation (and believing that doesn't negate that one can believe in a Creator/Source)......but what if the idea of religion isn't peculiar to Earth....what if our religions are screwed up versions of alien beliefs as well. Truth mixed with myth.??????

[RedeZra]

There's only one commandment He gave...and Jesus said "You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself....one these hinge the Law and the Prophets."

yes and if everyone lived by this loving precept then the earth would be another heaven




We don't show God we love God by doing anything...that's what the Pharisee's did....a relationship based on works. God doesn't have to see us "do"anything to know if we love or not.

i believe God wants us to actively help and look after each other

like the big family we are

but we fall hopelessly short on this most of the time




Someone else posted a comment that it was hard work to get back to God....it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be a hard thing to be restored to a relationship with our Creator/Source---and that's assuming we can be out of relationship.

Jesus serves as an Example and an Ideal which we can copy in our lives

it's not too hard but it takes a humble heart and a discipline mind




This isn't directed to RedEzra but to those of us who believe humanity may very well be the product of alien genetic manipulation (and believing that doesn't negate that one can believe in a Creator/Source)......but what if the idea of religion isn't peculiar to Earth....what if our religions are screwed up versions of alien beliefs as well. Truth mixed with myth.??????

i too believe based on the Bible that there were breeding between spirits and humans producing giant hybrid humans or demigods

which was the reason for the Deluge

and somehow this genepool survived the Flood

where the decendants of the antediluvian hybrids became the rulers of mankind

building Babel and all in all opposing God's purpose for humanity

[RedeZra]

It’s very similar to the role of other avatars such as Gautama Buddha.

an Avatar is an incarnation of God with a specific mission

and a Buddha is an enlighted human being with a specific purpose


what is the difference between God and an enlighted human being ?

not much ; ) but God is still God




As I proposed in my Gnosis series, Jesus was an advanced soul who incarnated as a human in order to become a living vessel for a higher divine intelligence. There is a difference between Jesus the man and Christ the higher consciousness that became active in him, and can become active in us. The end goal of his legacy was for each of us to do likewise, and that is the basis of Gnostic belief. It was his intent that we follow in his example and succeed him, whereas the corrupted version of Christianity demands we remain in his shadow on our knees.


Jesus Christ is the Word or Creative Heart of God according to the Bible

but i think He came as a Man without His divine powers and fully dependant upon His relationship with the Father to work healings and miracles etc


we can do the same as He did here on earth if we have the faith as a mustard seed ; )

[Loveisall21]

It's all about the Sun and our solar system. The bible is a very special book but it is not meant to be taken literally. I know saying that will ruffle some feathers . I get that. Reading that would have made me upset many years ago. The truth is sometimes a bitter pill to swallow, but it always sets you free in the end.



im sure the Bible speaks on several levels but you have formed this opinion by trusting men

or perhaps wolves in sheeps clothing


the establishment decides what we will think and so supress truths and propagate lies

we cannot longer distinguish truth from false without the Spirit of Truth guiding us

Oh have I now? I'm sorry to tell you this Redezra but you have formed your opinion on Christianity by trusting men. Who wrote the bible? Men. But God gave you and me a brain to logically study and investigate the information. One either does that or they don't. Who are you to make the judgement that the spirit of truth is not guiding me.

This is really is a big waste of time. I'm not going to be engaged by anything you have to write because and I'd like to quote you here: i could go on and on but it's not my point to convince those who have made up their mind

for them no amount of evidence will change their believes

If I wanted to get a fundamentalist bible lesson I'd first go get a lobotamy and then go back to my old congregation.

[RedeZra]

If I wanted to get a fundamentalist bible lesson I'd first go get a lobotamy and then go back to my old congregation.

those clips that you posted come out of Rotchild sponsored Zeitgeist

but by all means if you want to believe wolves in sheeps clothing then go ahead

i wont stop you

[Loveisall21]

If I wanted to get a fundamentalist bible lesson I'd first go get a lobotamy and then go back to my old congregation.

those clips that you posted come out of Rotchild sponsored Zeitgeist

but by all means if you want to believe wolves in sheeps clothing then go ahead

i wont stop you

You're funny!

Peace out.

[OneLittleFrog]

i believe the Bible paints a true if not complete picture about our Creator in this Age

Yep, it sure does. :rolleyes:

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
- Richard Dawkins

I'm not an atheist as Dawkins is, but that's the best description I've ever seen of the one who names himself "God" in the OT.

Here's an excellent verse-by-verse examination of the bible:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm
...with direct links to the "Good Book" itself. A real eye-opener if you've only heard the Sunday School version.

Personally, I have no use for anyone who demands to be worshiped. I think Worship is one of the ugliest words in existence.
Love, on the other hand, is the most beautiful word in existence, and that's the Source I listen to. Love is reciprocal; worship is not.

[Davidallany]

Now lets all praise the Lord, the one and only, his worship Darth Sidious, dark lord of the Sith.
ZsXuAyUJ_FQ

[Krullenjongen]

According to someone I trust who was a priest, no, they are not the authors.
How could they have written them if they were not written until around 100 years after jesus was meant to have left?
And your lack of care is at odds with what you claim you are and stand for.

i dont see how you can put your trust in modern men living 2000 years after the events


there is no date on the scrolls which make up the Bible so it is just a modern guess as to when they were written down

but remember the establishment is against the Christ and the Bible


i care about you but i dont care what you think of me

Well, I don't know how they date the writings, as I never cared enough to find out.
But, knowing my friend and how thorough he is, he checks everything out.
He told me that the church knows far more than they are allowed to say.
And no, the establishment isn't against your bible or your jesus, they ARE the establishment, or haven't you noticed?

The four gospels (the first 4 books of the new testament) were written between 35 and 80 AD.
How do we know this?
Because we have pieces (and sometimes much more than just pieces) of writing from the gospels from this time.
If we have pieces of the gospels from this time the original must be written before that.

[conk]

Gods are constructs of men, period. It is ok if in your delusional state you find peace, but leave it in your mind. Don't poison the rest of the world with religious BS. We have seen enough misery to last forever. Look around today. What is the main source of discontent? Religion. "My god is better than your god, and if you disagree, I'll kill you. God said I SHOULD kill you". Hmm, loving god?

People of the world live under the misguided belief that there is a here and a there. It separates us from each other. It's the opposite of the truth.

Granted, man or myth, the teachings attributed to Jesus Christ are wonderful. Their meaning has been subverted by men for nefarious purposes. Read Deepak Chopra's interpertion of Jesus' word. Jesus seemed to fully understand and employ the principles of advanced physics.

[Krullenjongen]

What I have pondered on many times is what time span does the bible cover. I believe the world was probably "created" in 6 periods days I don't think is right. As for a creator of all things I do think the Earth can create with out the help, maybe hindrance of and outside force. As for the book its self a very good guide but like all written words can be interpreted by the individual as they see fit.
If you wish to believe in a creator of all things then fair enough but the excuse we have free will, when asked why the creator does not do more for the suffering of his/her/its children is wearing a little thin.

Free will is just part of the answer but a strong argument because when you agree we have free will then you know that God cannot force people to do anything.
And wrong choices sometimes lead to a lot of suffering.

[Krullenjongen]

I wonder, what is the original language of the "original bible"? Please think about it...
If we understand the original one, there wont be any confusing things such as "the 6 peroids days" thing, etc.

The original language of the bible was Hebrew, Greek and some Aramaic.
The fact the most of us read a translation does not mean it is not clear what is meant in the creation story.
It is very clear in the book of Genesis that the creation was done in six literal days and not six periods of time.
But to get to this truth you need to do some Hebrew word study.

[Krullenjongen]

He died for our sin? Really?
Babies that haven't born already have sin then. and I born after many years He died, and He died because of my sin.
Ummm, maybe i'm wrong here, sorry...
But, I didn't kill Him. I'm honest in saying that.
Which are the one that is close minded anyway? the christians? or the people? or maybe you?:confused:
no offense ;)

He died FOR our sins, and not BECAUSE of our sin.
So your right you did not kill Him.

Because God is righteous and He created the rules to live by there must be a penalty for sin.
And the only one who can take this penalty for you is the One that was without sin.
People who have sinned cannot be in the presence of a perfect God like darkness cannot exist in the light.
So to make it possible for all people to be with God Jesus died FOR your sins and payed the penalty for your sin so your slate is wiped clean and you are made perfect in the eyes of God.

[Krullenjongen]

A word from God teaching us about Christianity: "I AM JAHOVA. WORSHIP ME, OR ELSE! I HAVE CONSTRUCTED THE WORST IMAGINABLE TORTURE FOR THOSE WHO DISOBEY MY COMMANDS, AND THIS TORTURE WILL LAST FOR.........ETERNITY! NOW WORSHIP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yeah right go f*ck your dictating self

Wow some cropped up anger here.
Do you really think this adds to the discussion?

And all of you who thanked him did you really find this a useful post???

I expected more of the members of this forum who keep talking about light, love and respect in all other threads.

[Fred Steeves]

A word from God teaching us about Christianity: "I AM JAHOVA. WORSHIP ME, OR ELSE! I HAVE CONSTRUCTED THE WORST IMAGINABLE TORTURE FOR THOSE WHO DISOBEY MY COMMANDS, AND THIS TORTURE WILL LAST FOR.........ETERNITY! NOW WORSHIP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yeah right go f*ck your dictating self

Wow some cropped up anger here.
Do you really think this adds to the discussion?

And all of you who thanked him did you really find this a useful post???

I expected more of the members of this forum who keep talking about light, love and respect in all other threads.

Hey Krullenjongen, maybe it's just my construction site humor, but I still think the "yeah right" bit at the end is not only hilarious, but appropriate. Also, I didn't interpret the "I AM JEHOVA"part as anger, but a fairly literal take off on how a good bit of the Old Testament actually reads. Some of that stuff spewed out by our old buddy Yahweh makes my toe nails want to curl up.

[Krullenjongen]

I´ve read the Bible many times. It´s a great Sci-Fi book, a true best-seller. The thing supposedly happened more than 2000 years ago. There´s no way to prove it really happened.

If our civilization is completely extinguished and, some day in the far future, someone finds a Harry Potter book, he could very well claim that it was all real and convince people to follow this book and worship Harry Potter as the son of god.

Oke i'll run with this argument of it is impossible to prove.
the first and funny thing to see is that people making this argument believe for example guys like sitchin and the ancient aliens theory.
Why would you then trust in this guy that mistranslated some ancient clay tablet?

The second thing is that archeology gave us a lot of evidence that the things written in the bible are true like places and peoples who lived in the ancient world.
so we know a lot of things from the bible first before we had found any proof.
Try to do that with your harry potter book. ;)

[RedeZra]

Some of that stuff spewed out by our old buddy Yahweh makes my toe nails want to curl up.

i heard Yahweh chuckle a bit when i read this ; )

[Krullenjongen]

If I wanted to get a fundamentalist bible lesson I'd first go get a lobotamy and then go back to my old congregation.

those clips that you posted come out of Rotchild sponsored Zeitgeist

but by all means if you want to believe wolves in sheeps clothing then go ahead

i wont stop you

And the funny thing is that is you point out the fallacies in the video or point to video's like "Zeitgeist refuted" or the video " the case for Christ" that i posted in some other thread that have lots of good arguments for the reliability of the bible. People don't want to hear it or watch it.
And they call themselves open minded but keep going back to the same false arguments.

[Lord Sidious]

A word from God teaching us about Christianity: "I AM JAHOVA. WORSHIP ME, OR ELSE! I HAVE CONSTRUCTED THE WORST IMAGINABLE TORTURE FOR THOSE WHO DISOBEY MY COMMANDS, AND THIS TORTURE WILL LAST FOR.........ETERNITY! NOW WORSHIP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yeah right go f*ck your dictating self

Wow some cropped up anger here.
Do you really think this adds to the discussion?

And all of you who thanked him did you really find this a useful post???

I expected more of the members of this forum who keep talking about light, love and respect in all other threads.

I thanked him because I found it amusing.
Quite different from the holier than thou attitude of people bashing us over the head with worn out teachings of another age.
Would your jesus behave such as you ''christians'' do here?





If I wanted to get a fundamentalist bible lesson I'd first go get a lobotamy and then go back to my old congregation.

those clips that you posted come out of Rotchild sponsored Zeitgeist

but by all means if you want to believe wolves in sheeps clothing then go ahead

i wont stop you

And the funny thing is that is you point out the fallacies in the video or point to video's like "Zeitgeist refuted" or the video " the case for Christ" that i posted in some other thread that have lots of good arguments for the reliability of the bible. People don't want to hear it or watch it.
And they call themselves open minded but keep going back to the same false arguments.

I would duck and fast!
The hammer of irony has you in it's sights.

[RedeZra]

"They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to devils" - Psalm 106:37


after a while even the Israelites fell for devil worship as they did not totally destroy the child sacrificing cult in Caanan

and eventually mingled with them and copied their customs

worshiping devils by sacrificing children



and so the Israelites became just another one of our old cultures

deep in devil worship and child sacrifice


until Yahweh finally had enough and sent Prophets to warn them

and Prophets said "if you kill your own children then Yahweh will kill you"

but the Prophets were killed


tuff times indeed ; )

[Muzz]

here is much suffering in the world

As far as I can see from the research I've done so far, peoples interpretation of Christianity has a big hand in that.

The Gnostics in the Mystery Schools warned early Europeans about the dangers of the redeemer complex as they called it that was spreading from the near east. Gnostics and Pagans were brutaly supressed under this belief system. Then thier existense was almost erased from history.

I might be wrong but as far as I can see we have had 2000 years of war, book burning, torture, murder, scientific repression, genocide and spiritual decay all done in the name of the book in your thread title.


Let the Bible speak Yes of course that is your right.

But lets also listen to what the Gnostics warned us about before the followers of your book erased them from the history books.


Redeemer Complex In the history of religions, an ensemble of beliefs and assumptions focussed on a supernatural figure imagined to have the power to "save" humanity and "redeem" the world, usually through a moment of final reckoning and retribution, Judgement Day. See also salvationism, which repeats some points in this entry.

The Gnostic protest against Judeo-Christianity has not been fairly or adequately stated by scholars, mainly because the scholars who specialize in Gnostic studies are constrained by their religious conditioning. Consequently, whenever the anti-Judaic and anti-Christian elements of Gnostic teachings become evident, they are immediately dismissed, treated as not worth considering. This unfortunate situation has produced a deeply misleading impression: we are left thinking that Gnostics must have been bad people if they rejected the religious tradition that has inspired humanity to high moral standards, such as justice, altruism, brotherly love, and forgiveness.

In fact, the Gnostics protested, not against the clear and obvious moral values that have tradionally been attributed to Judeo-Christian faith, but against the ideology of divine salvation enshrined in the Redeemer Complex. The specific elements of the Complex to which they objected are:

§ creation as the handiwork of a sole male deity, the Father God (monotheism), rather than as an ever-ongoing process involving diverse divinities of both genders (pantheism);

§ supremacy of the male Father God conceived as a judge and lawgiver;

§ repression of the Feminine—in Biblical terms, elimination of the figure of Wisdom, the Divine Sophia, or demoting of that figure to the handmaiden or servent of the Father God

§ god-given dominion of humanity over the Earth;

§ creation of humanity "in God's image";

§ corrupt nature of sexuality and the natural world (the myth of The Fall);

§ segregation of the select few or "choen people" who abide by god's commands and are both tested and favored in extreme measures, above the rest of humanity (the damned)

§ the supernatural source of atonement, contrasted to rapturous bonding with the healing and illuminating powers of the earth;

§ physical resurrection of the body, in the special case of Jesus Christ, and in the general case of the resurrection of humanity in the end time;

§ eternal punishment and damnation for sinners and infidels;

§ divine retribution, the apocalypse at the end of history.

Now, if you are a Christian who can practice the exemplary good behavior of love, altruism, forgiveness, and so on, without adhering blindly and fanatically to any or all of these points, you will have no problem with Gnostic views, which actually might enhance your life in some ways—mainly, through a deepened connection to the earth and all other living species. If, however, you need to keep faith in any or all of these propositions, you may find Gnostic teachings offensive and threatening.

source (http://www.metahistory.org/LEX/lexicon_R.php)

[ghostrider]

uncle Gr has an issue, the council of Nicea in 325 ad, changed the baptism from the name of Jesus, to father son and holy ghost. they also decided what books to include and what books to leave out. So you only get a small portion, and lose the importance of the name of Jesus. so=called religious people of that day were the only who killed the messiah, funny the poor, the meek , the beggers didn't have a problem with jesus only the scribes/ religious ( one who were supposed to know the word to teach it to others) people were in an uproar. a rebel challenged the teachings of spirituality, sound familiar ??? enlightened minds challenging modern day religious teachings and we are called rebels against the system ??? I say we are in pretty good company. His message was love one and other and help where you can. why would the masses fight against that message ??

[Daughter of Time]

I've always been confused by the concept that Jesus died for our sins. Personally, I love Jesus, and I think that if he could die for our sins in order to make us more aware and awake and more loving and kind, he would die for us a million times over. But!!! What happened to personal responsibility? If you go out there and destroy people's lives, will Jesus save you??? Why should he? It's your responsibility to pay for your transgressions, not the responsibility of Jesus.

But I digress! The Bible...

Dear RedeZra, you are entitled to your beliefs just like we are all entitled to ours, and I am moved by your your convictions about the Bible and your passionate defence. But how can you believe every word in that book? What proof do you have? I do believe that the truth shall set you free, that is, when you finally find it.

[RedeZra]

here is much suffering in the world

As far as I can see from the research I've done so far, peoples interpretation of Christianity has a big hand in that.



then you muzz dig deeper ; )


human history is bloody reading and suffering predates Christianity with thousands of years

much of the world is today run by a few secretive families who still plunges mankind into wars crime and corruption

i guess if satisfied with sloppy research then also this can be blamed on Christianity


we all know that the PTB supresses facts artifacts and information from the public

and it is a tedious task trying to figure out what is true and false regarding our origin and history because the PTB is not helping but misleading us down their version of history and origin


the PTB knows a whole lot about found facts and artifacts but for some reason they dont share with the public

so everybody is a detective hehe ; )

[RedeZra]

I've always been confused by the concept that Jesus died for our sins. Personally, I love Jesus, and I think that if he could die for our sins in order to make us more aware and awake and more loving and kind, he would die for us a million times over.

Jesus is alive and well and He is Spirit and Man

He speaks to people even today and manifest and visits in dreams and visions

Jesus is alive ; )



But how can you believe every word in that book? What proof do you have? I do believe that the truth shall set you free, that is, when you finally find it.

i believe the Bible because Jesus is alive ; )

[Daughter of Time]

Jesus is alive in spirit, yes, I do agree. But I don't see what that has to do with the Bible.

And by the way, what happened to the book of Mary?

[RedeZra]

Jesus is alive in spirit, yes, I do agree. But I don't see what that has to do with the Bible.

hehe Really ?! Oh and He is coming Back soon are you prepared ?




And by the way, what happened to the book of Mary?

found together with other Gnostic scrolls so not reliable ; )

[58andfixed]

Well said Lovisall21, however not said well enough for more people to be so much the better prepared " ..so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."

1. John Mill (c. 1645 – 23 June 1707) "Mill's work noted over 30,000 discrepancies between some 100 extant New Testament manuscripts."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mill

2. Bart D Ehrman "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" and a lecture at Stanford University on April 25, 2007 about his then recent publication:

"There are more variations among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo

Part 1/10 is 10m 144,457 views

http://img2.imagesbn.com/images/13770000/13772236.JPG

****

I believe it helps contentious dialog to no end, to refer to evidence as much as can be sought and found, for it can be soon discovered who has the fixed and unsustainable bias.

"Misquoting Jesus" is very affordable given the amount of effort and research, won't take much more than a few evenings of effort to read, and one will be forearmed with more than mere personal opinion for the next time this topic of "The Bible" comes up.

- 58





Who wrote the bible? Men.

[RedeZra]

what is it that we seek in the Bible ? Jesus Christ

well He is Living so seek Him

not words but Spirit

[vibrations]

And by the way, what happened to the book of Mary?

found together with other Gnostic scrolls so not reliable ; )

So the only reliable source is coming from the social group, all men, wearing women's dress, preaching about love and molesting children? In your shoes I would seriously revise the believe system concepts which guide your thoughts patterns which sticks you to something so obviously fraudulent.

I am not a religious man but I studied religions half of my life. I dedicated a lot of time to know better the figure of Jesus, not from the Christian sources and not fro Gnostic ones. What I came up with was a Jesus, a mortal man, much more intellectually and spiritually developed then others of his (and ours) era, who's psychic abilities allowed him to be in some occasions of his life a kind of vehicle for the Christic spirit to manifest through him and spread the Universal laws among men. The rest is more or less what was convenient to put in so called "sacred scripts" by the establishment of that time.

And you say Jesus is alive. His word is alive, his teachings, simple and strait are the base of the new society and the miracle we are waiting for is the assimilation of this teachings and their incorporation in our daily life.

Sounds a bit more logic to me (but that is just me).
Cheers.

[D-Day]

we all ow that the PTB supresses facts artifacts and information from the public


Yes, indeed they do.
And, your Bible is an excellent example of their handiwork.

[58andfixed]

I'd like to suggest some additional words that may be missing from your perspective Vibrations. Please correct me if I my notions are off.

What you offer is not mere logic, but a commitment to discover truth from much deception, and your commitment required time and effort to resolve. This is much more than logic.

I have a notion this is why you seem to reflect a "Personal Religious" perspective of a unique path, and not parroted doctrine and dogma of one of the various and sundry "Organized Religions," and are likely to resonate truth when you speak.

- 58





I am not a religious man but I studied religions half of my life.

I dedicated a lot of time to know better the figure of Jesus, not from the Christian sources and not fro Gnostic ones.

What I came up with was a Jesus, a mortal man, much more intellectually and spiritually developed then others of his (and ours) era, who's psychic abilities allowed him to be in some occasions of his life a kind of vehicle for the Christic spirit to manifest through him and spread the Universal laws among men.

And you say Jesus is alive. His word is alive, his teachings, simple and straight are the base of the new society and the miracle we are waiting for is the assimilation of this teachings and their incorporation in our daily life.

Sounds a bit more logic to me.

[vibrations]

I'd like to suggest some additional words that may be missing from your perspective Vibrations. Please correct me if I my notions are off.

What you offer is not mere logic, but a commitment to discover truth from much deception, and your commitment required time and effort to resolve. This is much more than logic.

I have a notion this is why you seem to reflect a "Personal Religious" perspective of a unique path, and not parroted doctrine and dogma of one of the various and sundry "Organized Religions," and are likely to resonate truth when you speak.

- 58





I am not a religious man but I studied religions half of my life.

I dedicated a lot of time to know better the figure of Jesus, not from the Christian sources and not fro Gnostic ones.

What I came up with was a Jesus, a mortal man, much more intellectually and spiritually developed then others of his (and ours) era, who's psychic abilities allowed him to be in some occasions of his life a kind of vehicle for the Christic spirit to manifest through him and spread the Universal laws among men.

And you say Jesus is alive. His word is alive, his teachings, simple and straight are the base of the new society and the miracle we are waiting for is the assimilation of this teachings and their incorporation in our daily life.

Sounds a bit more logic to me.

It's probably quite true what you're saying. The logic I mention is off course my logic, my view, my point of observation, and that means totally personal, nothing to do with some Universal truth or everything. I am a result of all my experiences during this and some also from past lives. I just try to present my thoughts about the Bible which does not put me in any higher or lower position as anybody else. It's a discussion where we do what we can. Some think that they have to convince, some merely add some glimpses, some try to expose their view.

And about personal religion. I would like to believe in me more and more. The rest is the expedition on the past guided by what I felt was good in that particular moment. My conclusions have no less no more weight than rederZra's. It's just believe, one of millions. But sharing this believes can bring us new points of view and widen our perspective. And you said very well, "unique path", but aren't we all on our unique paths?

[markpierre]

Hey it IS all there.

It's a lot clearer in discarded texts like the gospels of Thomas and Magdalen and others, but that stuff isn't lost any more.
And no one is fooled anymore about why it disappeared.

And if you're ambitious enough to check out the Old Testament with the language and code that it was really written in, it reads just like the Tao,
which strangely (interestingly) Spirit once told me, is the only remaining modern discipline that resembles Jesus' teachings at all.

Or brave enough to accept that everything is showing us the same thing in some way. And in any way that you're able to hear it, it's going to keep making that offer.

So it's a funny old puzzle, this 'mysteries' stuff.

But what we can conclude is that if you just turn your mind over to a church and think you've done your work, you'll never get a glimpse of truth.

That is, until truth reaches down through the clouds of confusion and grabs you and takes you home.

Which it will.

Seems like that's what's happening.

In the meantime, have fun. Believe whatever you like.

[Orion.V]

Jesus is son of god, but we are too. We all came from the same source ( god ).
- Jesus was also a teacher but not many people realised his teachings.
WE create our own heaven or hell, nobody or no god has set a perfect or torturous world for us. It is a path and endless journey that we take on and it is up to our own free will how we balance it and where we end up.

- The bible is not correctly translated. Great mistakes have been made while translating from Hebrew to Greek - Church Slavonic and lastly to all other languages. The word CHURCH itself is one of the worst translations ever made, or the word ABOMINATION. It is very important to understand that the bible was also written in symbolic language and it is not to be taken literally.

- Christianity is a very fragmented group. First there is the original Christian world - the orthodox , then we have it's twisted and perverted version - roman catholic and then even worse we have all those christian sects that i don't really need to name them right now.

I am born as orthodox christian and even thou i have great respect for it i have chosen to seek truth and "god" within my own heart and not from a book or other teachings.
I am the truth for my world, for my heaven or hell because i can choose and have free will.

[Lord Sidious]

here is much suffering in the world

As far as I can see from the research I've done so far, peoples interpretation of Christianity has a big hand in that.



then you muzz dig deeper ; )


human history is bloody reading and suffering predates Christianity with thousands of years

much of the world is today run by a few secretive families who still plunges mankind into wars crime and corruption

i guess if satisfied with sloppy research then also this can be blamed on Christianity


we all know that the PTB supresses facts artifacts and information from the public

and it is a tedious task trying to figure out what is true and false regarding our origin and history because the PTB is not helping but misleading us down their version of history and origin


the PTB knows a whole lot about found facts and artifacts but for some reason they dont share with the public

so everybody is a detective hehe ; )

What about all the ''witches'' that were burnt? Is that fake?
What about the women, muslim and jewish that were raped by the crusaders in Jerusalem when it was captured?
Are you saying that the crimes committed by the christians and their church in history are not true?

And who are you to decide what gospel is reliable or not?
2000 years after all the goings on were alleged to have happened?
What I find is that people become dogmatic and then justify what fits and what doesn't.
I know, I was like that with my beliefs about race and politics.

[Muzz]

then you muzz dig deeper ; )

Patronizing and dismissive.


human history is bloody reading and suffering predates Christianity with thousands of years

Did your book improve the situation?


much of the world is today run by a few secretive families who still plunges mankind into wars crime and corruption

The main tools for this are books like your bible


i guess if satisfied with sloppy research then also this can be blamed on Christianity

A wee dig there? Can you clarify whats sloppy about my research.


we all know that the PTB supresses facts artifacts and information from the public

I agree the bible is a good example if this. The Gnostics would agree too.


and it is a tedious task trying to figure out what is true and false regarding our origin and history

You right again, it is a tedious task. Mainly because early Christians destroyed all the knowledge because it didnt agree with the dogma.


the PTB knows a whole lot about found facts and artifacts but for some reason they dont share with the public

Err.. maybe because it would shake the foundations of Christianity. Give the pope a phone and ask if you can have a nosey round the Vatican Vaults.

[markpierre]

Sorry, I gotta say this;

That's a really fun exchange that's going on. Don't let anybody squish it.

[ghostrider]

Jesus is alive in spirit, yes, I do agree. But I don't see what that has to do with the Bible.

And by the way, what happened to the book of Mary? Why is it called the AUTHORIZED king james VERSION ?? Does that mean there is an unauthorized VERSION floating around ? So the king of England is the only one who can AUTHORIZE the words of energy ?? without Mary and a light ( ufo) in the sky, Jesus wouldn't be. everything comes from divine female.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Join me and live forever, refuse and burn in hell forever, is that really a choice ??

[Davy]

If only the bible included all the original text (there are over 48 books missing/are very condensed) like the "missing years of Jesus", "psalms of Sodom", etc. Notice how no books are written by women in the bible. Also in the bible gods create man in less than a paragraph, so I am sure there was a book about that. So your 'bible' was edited severely in 400AD when they made the one book for the whole Roman empire to have one simple religion. So most of the spiritual connection has only limited description and so is separate so people can never understand it and have to look to priest's and bishops for this knowledge.

Well said!:amen::amen::amen::amen::amen::

[Lord Sidious]

Jesus is alive in spirit, yes, I do agree. But I don't see what that has to do with the Bible.

And by the way, what happened to the book of Mary? Why is it called the AUTHORIZED king james VERSION ?? Does that mean there is an unauthorized VERSION floating around ? So the king of England is the only one who can AUTHORIZE the words of energy ?? without Mary and a light ( ufo) in the sky, Jesus wouldn't be. everything comes from divine female.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Join me and live forever, refuse and burn in hell forever, is that really a choice ??

Excellent catch!
I love it when people see things and then extrapolate them for themselves.
And on that same vein of thought, how can a bible be copyrighted, if it is THE bible and not A bible?

[Gardener]

I read Deuteronomy only recently whilst reading and researching the various 'opinions' about who wrote the bible (or put it together). I was totally sickened by the psychopathic nature of Yaweh, and if anyone is in any doubt about the nature of this so called god read Deuteronomy, it is really worth the read.

Black is white indeed.

Levite priests put this lot together for a reason. Power and control

Its a big subject and there is a divine thread of truth weaving its way though the books of both testaments, it is very difficult to find and raises many questions, my favourite has always been the creation story where god/God created man twice. :)

Best not to invest too much in it until the BS detector is fully operational, in full consciousness. Then you will know for definite on which ray of creation you truly belong. Divine Consciousness or 'yaweh's gang.'

Good thread.


g

[Krullenjongen]

uncle Gr has an issue, the council of Nicea in 325 ad, changed the baptism from the name of Jesus, to father son and holy ghost. they also decided what books to include and what books to leave out. So you only get a small portion, and lose the importance of the name of Jesus. so=called religious people of that day were the only who killed the messiah, funny the poor, the meek , the beggers didn't have a problem with jesus only the scribes/ religious ( one who were supposed to know the word to teach it to others) people were in an uproar. a rebel challenged the teachings of spirituality, sound familiar ??? enlightened minds challenging modern day religious teachings and we are called rebels against the system ??? I say we are in pretty good company. His message was love one and other and help where you can. why would the masses fight against that message ??

This is exactly what i mean when i say people go back to the same false arguments and don't want to hear the truth.
This statement of yours "they also decided what books to include and what books to leave out" is just plainly wrong and thus a lie.
It's like the MSM propaganda.
If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough the people will start to believe it.

If you just do a little research you would have found out that the biblical canon was never discussed in Nicaea.
Even Wikipedia in it's piece over the council on Nicaea has a piece called " Misconceptions" and that says:

"A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council's role in establishing the Biblical Canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the Biblical Canon at the council at all"

So if you take away anything from this discussion let it be that this argument about establishing the Biblical canon at Nicaea is just false.

[Krullenjongen]

Jesus is alive in spirit, yes, I do agree. But I don't see what that has to do with the Bible.

And by the way, what happened to the book of Mary?

Jesus is alive in spirit and in His resurrected body.
Nobody ever showed up with his body so that supports this theory.

And the gospel of Mary is a Gnostic writing from around the 2de century AD and was never accepted (even in that time) by the early Christians as an authoritative book and thus it never made it to the Bible like many of the Gnostic gospels from that time.

[panopticon]

G'day All,

I said in another thread the other day that I will partake of conversation not conversion.

In that spirit, I would point out that there are many contradicitons within the Christian Bible that many biblical scholars have been unable to come to terms with and resulted in their changing their position from a fundamentalist literal interpretation to a more liberal one.

Just one small point: The Council of Nicaea (in 325) did not formulate the canon. That's a common mistake that has been spread by the internet. There is an interesting article on what the Council did do here:
http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/council_nicaea.html

Try this documentary on for size as it is a fairly good introduction to the origins of todays Bible and covers the gnostic texts and reasons why they were probably not included. The main thing I don't agree with in the documentary is that it places the writing of 'The Gospel of Thomas' much later than some recent research indicates. It is highly likely, in my opinion, that if there was an historical Jesus 'The Gospel of Thomas' is probably the first relating of his teachings.

-7560334588471801986

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7560334588471801986

I am not convinced that Jesus existed as there are no historical documents to indicate he did. Titus Flavius Josephus' 'Testimonium Flavianum' is the text that is often dragged out as historical evidence but the sections where Jesus of Nazareth is mention has been largely discredited as a later second or third century addition. Now even if I were to stretch my imagination and say that the many scholars who say that it is an obvious insert are wrong, and that all the fundamentalists who say it isn't are right, there is still the uncomfortable fact that at best it is second, third, or fourth hand hearsay, from unsubstantiated sources.

Next problem of course is that the authors of the New Testament made many errors in the actual period setting.
For example...
Jesus of Nazareth... Problem is the evidence points to Nazareth being abandoned from ~700 BCE (following Assyrian massacres) until 70 CE . In all likelihood it was a mistaken reference to the Nazareen Sect. The discover in late 2009 of "Jesus House in Nazareth" by archaeologist Yardenna Alexandre is a classic example of how information is manipulated by fundamentalists to push their perspective. The way that the apologists (look at this drivel from them (http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=13&article=3599) for a taste) jumped on this was remarkable however the actual dating (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Early+History+-+Archaeology/Residential_building_time_Jesus_Nazareth_21-Dec-2009.htm) of the site as much later:

The artifacts recovered from inside the building were few and mostly included fragments of pottery vessels from the Early Roman period (the first and second centuries CE).

What about the Israeli soldiers committing mass murder (every man woman and child were put to the sword) against the Canaanites in Deuteronomy?
Read what the esteemed apologist William Lane Criag (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5767) (yes the same drongo from Strobel's propoganda piece "The Case For Christ") thinks of that! It was ok to kill everyone who wasn't like them evidently and that we should feel sorry for the soldiers:

'Ironically, I think the most difficult part of this whole debate is the apparent wrong done to the Israeli soldiers themselves. Can you imagine what it would be like to have to break into some house and kill a terrified woman and her children? The brutalizing effect on these Israeli soldiers is disturbing'

Not only that but Craig goes onto say that we should be glad they killed the babies because that means, according to Craig's twisted mind, that they go straight to heaven because:

'the death of these children was actually their salvation'.

I've got a heap more like this so when people refer to artificial constructs like "evil" and "good" as being absolutes and how caring their male personification is I just feel sick.

Just a quick correction (in red) Krullenjongen:


The four gospels (the first 4 books of the new testament) were allegedly written between 35 and 80 AD.



How do we know this?
Because we have pieces (and sometimes much more than just pieces) of writing from the gospels from this time.
If we have pieces of the gospels from this time the original must be written before that.
Krullenjongen, I've never heard of that before! As far as I understood the only texts from that period were from Qumran or the Nag Hammadi library.
If you have information to the contrary please direct me to where I can research it at my leisure.



The second thing is that archeology gave us a lot of evidence that the things written in the bible are true like places and peoples who lived in the ancient world.
so we know a lot of things from the bible first before we had found any proof.
Try to do that with your harry potter book. ;)

Krullenjongen I am unsure as to what evidence you mean. Much archaeological evidence that fundamentalist Christians grab onto as being "proof" is placed within a century or two window... Like the above mentioned archaeological find at Nazareth. Sure there is a possibility that there was an historical Jesus and that the New Testament is not just a collection of allegorical tales but the evidence is rather slim.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[markpierre]

Try to include in that though, that the Old Testament is referring to an entirely different god than the one Jesus was trying to present.

Trying, I don't know how successful he was.

One god is insecure, controlling and vengeful (all of my favorite human traits), and the latter is an accepting, giving, benevolent parent. That seems to touch more on my understanding of what the term 'divine' means.

One rules through laws and the threat of punishment, and the other through unconditional love and corrective healing.

It seems a bit obvious that a great number of Jesus' supposed adherents still worship the former, and accordingly still fear him. And so I really can't understand their reasoning or their case for it.

I know I can't take the literal translations and ever evolving perversions of it seriously, but I can't ignore the value of that contrast. Which God would I pick if I were to pick one?

The one that suggests that God is at least as good a parent as I am? Probably.

Then again there are a lot of strangely defined terms that are used to justify that strange viewpoint.

Doesn't 'sin' really mean that I missed the target? What solution should we offer for that? Maybe take another shot?

I think pretty much everyone really intends to hit the target if the target is to find their worth somehow. An end to fear and guilt.

How do we help out with that? Make them more guilty and increase their fear? That's just weird.

Damnation is a bit irrational. I can't accept any argument with a foundation like that.

[lunaflare]

my thoughts today...
be willing to view the Bible as a symbol...like a cross, crop circles, glyph, words/logos...
and symbols serve to "speak" to both the conscious and unconscious mind- thus there is no one literal interpretation nor right answer.
And as there are varying levels of consciousness, there will be varying perceptions and layers of meaning-varying personal discoveries...
A reader of avalon forum will interpret the Bible differently to a Texan Baptist and, on this very post, there are ranging views.
Some see Jesus as a real person with worthy teachings and some see Jesus as a symbol (the sun) in terms of astro-theology
I appreciated the you-tube link (page one-Santos Bonaccci)-the Bible being an allegory for our placement within the Cosmic cycle.
That people (bible characters) are symbols of the Zodiac. I believe the Bible is allegory- showing that we are part of the comos and dance with the stars... all is interconnection and marks a return to self-sovereignty and self-awareness (also the message of Jesus).
So are we, as humans also stars and planets revolving around each-other in this great Cosmic Drama play we call, "Life"? Are we co-creators of experience? In essence, we are consciousness and consciousness can take many forms. Earth-consciousness. Gaia.
Indeed, the World is a Stage and we all play our roles...maybe many, many parts on varying time-lines and in varying dimensions.
Sure, the Bible was doctored and fiddled with ...the Feminine Voice buried and dishonoured...but if we are all part of the Drama/Comedy/Tragedy, surely there remains a key to the greater Hologram; or complete "works"....or Great Mystery...?
And so we bring forth that which remains hidden behind the veil, that which may be willing to come to light.
That great Hopi reminder...
"We are the ones we have been waiting for"

[Lord Sidious]

uncle Gr has an issue, the council of Nicea in 325 ad, changed the baptism from the name of Jesus, to father son and holy ghost. they also decided what books to include and what books to leave out. So you only get a small portion, and lose the importance of the name of Jesus. so=called religious people of that day were the only who killed the messiah, funny the poor, the meek , the beggers didn't have a problem with jesus only the scribes/ religious ( one who were supposed to know the word to teach it to others) people were in an uproar. a rebel challenged the teachings of spirituality, sound familiar ??? enlightened minds challenging modern day religious teachings and we are called rebels against the system ??? I say we are in pretty good company. His message was love one and other and help where you can. why would the masses fight against that message ??

This is exactly what i mean when i say people go back to the same false arguments and don't want to hear the truth.
This statement of yours "they also decided what books to include and what books to leave out" is just plainly wrong and thus a lie.
It's like the MSM propaganda.
If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough the people will start to believe it.

If you just do a little research you would have found out that the biblical canon was never discussed in Nicaea.
Even Wikipedia in it's piece over the council on Nicaea has a piece called " Misconceptions" and that says:

"A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council's role in establishing the Biblical Canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the Biblical Canon at the council at all"

So if you take away anything from this discussion let it be that this argument about establishing the Biblical canon at Nicaea is just false.

I would suggest that you tone down your rebuttals.
To insinuate someone is a liar is bad enough, but to outright state it, when you don't know them is stupidity of the highest order.
If you can't debate nicely, don't debate, but don't resort to ad hominem attacks.
And quoting wiki doesn't mean that much, anyone can edit it, including you or me.
Trying to deny that which is well known is not a very good debating tactic.

[58andfixed]

Two opinions only division make.

Two sources that sustain what transpired at the First Council of Nicaea 325 are:

1. Wikipedia [a collaborative approach with peer review rules for source referenced comments]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

" a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in AD 325."

"This first ecumenical council was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom."

"Its main accomplishments were settlement of the Christological issue of the relationship of Jesus to God the Father; the construction of the first part of the Nicene Creed; settling the calculation of the date of Easter; and promulgation of early canon law."

****

2. Bart D Ehrman "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" lecture at Stanford University. View the lecture and the Q&A in the last 4 of 10 parts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_historical.html

"Christianity is not a single, ancient religion. It is a series of religions all given the same name."

"During the first three Christian centuries, the practices and beliefs found among people who called themselves Christian were so varied that that the differences between Roman Catholics, Primitive Baptists, and Seventh-Day Adventists pale by comparison." ~"Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman (2003)1

****

Know that when the stiff-necked that wear blinders and cherry-pick biased references that support deniable thesis, if but some reference points were only more familiar to more.

The only question that then arises, is the intent of erroneous positions malevolent, or stubborn ignorant innocence ?

- 58






So if you take away anything from this discussion let it be that this argument about establishing the Biblical canon at Nicaea is just false.

[Beren]

For the sake of this thread I will re post what I wrote in another thread Case for Christ for this is quite relevant here.


If you examine what is written in current Bible is that man was :
1. perfect in body and soul
2. had everlasting life
3. no sickness whatsoever ,physical or mental
4. ability to tune in to high frequencies and understand animal kingdom aswell as plant kingdom
5. ability to openly talk with Creator
6. on high level of conscience without realization of the body nakedness (it was perfect and not shameful to look upon)
7. was beyond good and evil for it didn`t exist in his and hers world for they were in state of bliss or oneness with all that is
.
.
.

All that is lost. Hence Christ`s arrival to return mankind to that first estate and even higher.
Really that`s it.
"Fallen ones" are among else WE.

P.S.
old testament is a chronology of how to return a man from deeply disturbing primitiveness into oneness with God.
All their deeds and sacrifices were NOT asked by God ,they were allowed for they desired to do that in their fallen understanding what would be appealing to God.
God allowed it but then after some time (materialized) in Christ came to say :"It`s ok now, stop that and grow up, leave primitiveness and grow in oneness and Love."

When you honestly and carefully look upon, you will see a process of returning mankind to its former glory. It was bloody and dirty but is it better now?

We type on computers and eat steaks and drink French wines and our brothers and sisters die of malnutrition somewhere in this world...
More people are being killed daily by greed and sheer evil than then.

So instead of cherry picking from Bible and accusing ,it`s better to look the whole picture in it. It`s a holy book,just as many are holy too for God used many ways to bring people back.

If you don`t understand it or never read it or got hurt by religions in the name of God - please don`t spit on it. God is not the one to blame for deeds done of free will of church men. They kill and steal and rule over mankind in the name of God (in their name really) but can`t you see that FREE WILL is allowing them that?

We are allowing them that too.

How can we blame our Father for giving us the most magnificent gift of free will?
Do we blame him for making us in his image - Gods ourselves?

Do we not realize that we are creators in making?
Universes are waiting to be born from us , so let us grow up. Let us be Love ,just like our heavenly Creator is .

[HORIZONS]

The Bible is like an onion - there are layers and layers of understanding.
There is the literal interpretation -
the historical -
the prophetical -
the new age-
the spiritual-
the esoteric-
the metaphysical-
the mystical-
and several other modalities of interpretation based upon what church system one is immersed in.

Many people have tried to change what the Bible states, but in the realm of Spirit the meaning never changes - but one must be in a spiritual state to understand this - for "the natural man receives NOT the things of God." Hence the reason for all the misunderstanding concerning the Bible, as it can be used for both good and evil.

[58andfixed]

Thank you for your contribution Panopticon.

I believe that once students of any of the Bibles study Irenaeus and Tertullian, then it will become more apparent for the 'conformist nature' of Organized Religion and the disappearance of Gnosticism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus

"Irenaeus' best-known book, Adversus Haereses or Against Heresies (c. 180) is a detailed attack on Gnosticism, which was then a serious threat to the Church, and especially on the system of the Gnostic Valentinus."

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/heresies/g/Gnosticism.htm

"Irenaeus and Tertullian wrote against Gnosticism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian

"In spite of his schism from the Church, he continued to write against heresy, especially Gnosticism."

- 58




".. a fairly good introduction to the origins of todays Bible and covers the gnostic texts and reasons why they were probably not included."

[Beren]

The Bible is like an onion - there are layers and layers of understanding.
There is the literal interpretation -
the historical -
the prophetical -
the new age-
the spiritual-
the esoteric-
the metaphysical-
the mystical-
and several other modalities of interpretation based upon what church system one is immersed in.

Many people have tried to change what the Bible states, but in the realm of Spirit the meaning never changes - but one must be in a spiritual state to understand this - for "the natural man receives NOT the things of God." Hence the reason for all the misunderstanding concerning the Bible, as it can be used for both good and evil.


Excellent comment HORIZONS!

Remember the quote from Christ when stated that up there (heavenly realms) there is no male or female, or any kind of nations or whatever we are living it now , there is only spirit form of souls and are in unity with God.

We are being called back to unity ,back to spirit essence ,to be able to understand all and to be all.

[HORIZONS]

The Bible is like an onion - there are layers and layers of understanding.
There is the literal interpretation -
the historical -
the prophetical -
the new age-
the spiritual-
the esoteric-
the metaphysical-
the mystical-
and several other modalities of interpretation based upon what church system one is immersed in.

Many people have tried to change what the Bible states, but in the realm of Spirit the meaning never changes - but one must be in a spiritual state to understand this - for "the natural man receives NOT the things of God." Hence the reason for all the misunderstanding concerning the Bible, as it can be used for both good and evil.


Excellent comment HORIZONS!

Remember the quote from Christ when stated that up there (heavenly realms) there is no male or female, or any kind of nations or whatever we are living it now , there is only spirit form of souls and are in unity with God.

We are being called back to unity ,back to spirit essence ,to be able to understand all and to be all.

Therefore we can now understand the misunderstood scripture - "Christ is all, and in all" - which most Christians won't touch with a ten-foot pole.

[58andfixed]

Unfortunately few read a Bible, and fewer still study it, or the historicity of Bibles.

Manipulated Bibles and Organized Religions have been the core mechanisms of social control.

The few that put some effort are carefully coached to do so under the 'guidance of a church teacher,' to put forward the 'appropriate interpretations.

We will not wonder if conspiracies could be so organized and hidden from the common eye, it will be more a matter of how to tie them together to understand their agenda.

- 58



Therefore we can now understand the misunderstood scripture -

"Christ is all, and in all" - which most Christians won't touch with a ten-foot pole.

[HORIZONS]

Agreed!!! :thumb:


Unfortunately few read a Bible, and fewer still study it, or the historicity of Bibles.

Manipulated Bibles and Organized Religions have been the core mechanisms of social control.

The few that put some effort are carefully coached to do so under the 'guidance of a church teacher,' to put forward the 'appropriate interpretations.

We will not wonder if conspiracies could be so organized and hidden from the common eye, it will be more a matter of how to tie them together to understand their agenda.

- 58



Therefore we can now understand the misunderstood scripture -

"Christ is all, and in all" - which most Christians won't touch with a ten-foot pole.

[Beren]

Therefore we can now understand the misunderstood scripture - "Christ is all, and in all" - which most Christians won't touch with a ten-foot pole.
It`s the same repetition as in Jesus`s time, everybody save a few abandoned him. But later on it gained steam. When the power of holy spirit came upon people . But then again after some years corruption came in the form of "new" clergy wanna be`s ... for some were lured to be "new " priests and ministers etc. in the meantime completely forgetting why for the love of God was Christ there at all???

Same is today.

Core message in the Bible is intact and the holy spirit is there for all whom seek for it.
Churches are doing a good deed in at least bringing people back to God and Bible, BUT and again HUGE BUT (not butt :rolleyes:) there comes a precise moment or time frame of decision for each man or woman;

namely ;
1.to trust God from now on and its spirit that called me forth
2.to trust men who claim to be of God and trust their leadership

Choice is there for all and sadly majority choose to trust men rather than God.

And exactly there lies their fall into same thing that enslaves all - Fear.
Many don`t trust God, many don`t believe in God , many are like Thomas was - seeing is believing, many are afraid what others would say if they follow holy spirit rather than men...

If today`s professing Christians from all religions ( over than billion people) would step forward and claim their power by trusting God rather than organizations and men , what a miracle that would be!

I can guarantee that a global paradigm would change in an instant!

So many united in power of Christ would light up the planet in a day!!!
We would realize that we have unlimited power!
That we are of God for true! That we are divine to our very essence and more!

So I ask you please all my fellow humans that read this here and now ; do not fear , do not quarrel over petty things, trust in God and in Love, raise to your potential , be one with Christ and God - beyond religion - for what has Christ in common with religions?
What has the Source of Love has in common with lies?

Nothing.

Do not judge your fellow brothers and sisters who call themselves Christians and who are still in fear of men, help them overcome that fear!
Realize that this very moment Christ is looking upon us all , along with God who is all and everywhere.

God is trusting and believing in you and me.
Even when we are not trusting and believing in ourselves - in God.

[RedeZra]

And by the way, what happened to the book of Mary?

found together with other Gnostic scrolls so not reliable ; )

So the only reliable source is coming from the social group, all men, wearing women's dress, preaching about love and molesting children? In your shoes I would seriously revise the believe system concepts which guide your thoughts patterns which sticks you to something so obviously fraudulent.



what have wolves in women's dresses molesting children to do with the Bible ?

many minions of Satan have become ministers


i cannot condone Gnosticism simply because it is contrary to the words of Jesus

i stick to Christ ; )

[RedeZra]

we all ow that the PTB supresses facts artifacts and information from the public


Yes, indeed they do.
And, your Bible is an excellent example of their handiwork.

ahh thnx for telling me

wanna back it up ?

[RedeZra]

Jesus is son of god, but we are too. We all came from the same source ( god ).
- Jesus was also a teacher but not many people realised his teachings.
WE create our own heaven or hell, nobody or no god has set a perfect or torturous world for us. It is a path and endless journey that we take on and it is up to our own free will how we balance it and where we end up.



Jesus Christ is the Creator on the Cross and the pierced Heart of God


if you contemplate on this i promise much good ; )

[58andfixed]

For those interested "The Bible Unearthed" contributes much to an understanding of the development of Bibles and Organized Religion.

1 of 4. The Patriarchs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t440bxhn1qA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t440bxhn1qA

51m 30s 2,549 views

Aired in 2005.

2/4. The.Exodus.
3/4. The.Kings.
4/4. The.Book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

"The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts is a 2001 book about the archaeology of Israel and its relationship to the origins of the Hebrew Bible."

"The authors are Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University, and Neil Asher Silberman, a contributing editor to Archaeology Magazine."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cb/Bible_Unearthed.jpg

****

The potential for divisibility only reduces as more people become informed, aware and less biased.

- 58

[RedeZra]

What about all the ''witches'' that were burnt? Is that fake?
What about the women, muslim and jewish that were raped by the crusaders in Jerusalem when it was captured?
Are you saying that the crimes committed by the christians and their church in history are not true?

there is a spiritual war between the powers of good and the forces of evil

and it bleeds through and drips into our world


most of the crusaders were well men and not Christlike as most men and also Christians


devil worship has a long bloody history

from the canyons of Canaan to the tops of Tenochtitlan

in the courts of kings and shacks in the woods

sex sacrifice and summoning of spirits




And who are you to decide what gospel is reliable or not?


i am me and nobody has to agree with me ; )

[RedeZra]

then you muzz dig deeper ; )

Patronizing and dismissive.

i hope innocent play on words don't offend you

and yes if you think the Bible and Christianity is the core force of evil in the world

then you muzz dig deeper ; )

[RedeZra]

Join me and live forever, refuse and burn in hell forever, is that really a choice ??

Christ is real and the Devil is real


there is a war raging between good and evil

evil will eventually be confined in hell while good will see heaven


the point and purpose of Christ on the Cross

who is the Heart of God who spoke creation and creatures into being


is that nobody needs to spend time in hell with the Devil and his devils and demons

because of sins mistakes and evil that we have done and do


He took all our sins upon Himself

so we just need to trust Him and seek Him til we find Him

[pharoah21]

Yesterday I met world famous wizard Oberon Zell-Ravenheart who did a reading for me.

http://www.greeneggzine.com/images/Zell_Ravenheart,_Oberon.jpg?185

He had such a good energy about him, was so honest, and helped me out with my current situation. I compare him to all the former pastors and youth leaders I knew when I was once a born again Christian, and it once again confirms which of the two are truly evil.

Just being around him, you could feel this man was a good character, he was extremely tired, he'd been talking to people individually for about 8 hours straight at this point, but still treated me as an individual, had a conversation with me, and then gave me a taro card reading. He gave me some good, honest advice about how to make it out of my current predicament.

As opposed to the typical Christians advice: Pray to God, he'll help you........

[RedeZra]

Therefore we can now understand the misunderstood scripture - "Christ is all, and in all" - which most Christians won't touch with a ten-foot pole.

this is the 'new man' who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him

and not the 'old man' of the world

[RedeZra]

As opposed to the typical Christians advice: Pray to God, he'll help you........

when Christians want to relate to Christ then let them


you are free to walk your own path and do your own things

[pharoah21]

you are free to walk your own path and do your own things

Thank you for making me aware of my rights.

[panopticon]

G'day pharoah21,

Thank you for sharing this.
Oberon looks like an interesting character. :hippie:

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[kreagle]

then you muzz dig deeper ; )

Patronizing and dismissive.

i hope innocent play on words don't offend you

and yes if you think the Bible and Christianity is the core force of evil in the world

then you muzz dig deeper ; )

RedeZra,

I think you have, once again, hit upon the core reason why so many never "uncover" the wonderful truth in the Bible and then apply it to their lives. Most just simply "skim" over the top of it, or more accurately, over the "outer layers" that have indeed been molested and polluted by carnal man. By "carnal", I mean never committing their lives to God's Word and then being "born again" in the manner that Jesus spoke about when He talked plainly to Nicodemus in John chapter 3. Folks, it's ONLY through being "born again" that one will EVER be able to properly understand and apply the wonderful riches of God's Word to their lives.

Notice the words of Jesus to Nicodemus in John 3:3

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The point here, being, is that to "see" means to "understand"! How many times have we all tried to explain something to someone by saying,...."Don't you "see"?,......when we are really are saying,....."Don't you "understand"?

The "carnal mind", which all men have prior to being "born again", will NEVER, EVER be able to "see or understand" the fullness of God's Word to comprehend it "spiritually" and to activate the wonderful benefits that comes along with the "new birth process"!

I'm also afraid that this "truth" opens up a whole new can of worms for most, in that most people will stop right there and say within themselves,...."Well that doesn't sit well with me at all,.....to not be able to completely comprehend this that you call "truth" with my own "intellect" , FIRST, before I proceed to the next step that you refer to as the "new birth experience"!

You see, our Lord Jesus, as our Creator, knows everyone of us. It's for this very reason that He sat a little child down before Himself one day and gave one of the hardest, yet most simplest , lessons of all times to His creation.

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

You say,..."why the hardest"?.....because most people's "intellect" won't allow them to take this step of "faith" and "trust" in something they don't completely comprehend and understand.

You further ask,...."why the simplest"?......you see to the little child,...."faith" and "trust" come "naturally" to them!!! Oh!,....how much wonderful works God can do in the heart of those who simply "trust" and put "faith" in Him!

"Intellect" is a wonderful and powerful tool!,......"True and Complete Intellect" finds a way to "team up with God" and powers us through this life and into eternity!!!

God Bless and enrich all,........kreagle

[Lord Sidious]

What about all the ''witches'' that were burnt? Is that fake?
What about the women, muslim and jewish that were raped by the crusaders in Jerusalem when it was captured?
Are you saying that the crimes committed by the christians and their church in history are not true?

there is a spiritual war between the powers of good and the forces of evil

and it bleeds through and drips into our world


most of the crusaders were well men and not Christlike as most men and also Christians


devil worship has a long bloody history

from the canyons of Canaan to the tops of Tenochtitlan

in the courts of kings and shacks in the woods

sex sacrifice and summoning of spirits




And who are you to decide what gospel is reliable or not?


i am me and nobody has to agree with me ; )

As per usual, you try to evade answering my question and you fail.
What does your answer have to do with all the people burnt as witches?
Most of them didn't even believe in your devil, let alone worship him.
Your church burnt them for things as offensive as herbalism.
They burnt their familiars too, their cats, their birds, whatever animals they had.
Although sometimes they crucified the animals.
Is this the work of a loving god and its' followers?
It sounds like crazy people to me.

[Centauro]

As I stated in a previous post we should always look a the message of Christ our living God in the flesh and nothing else. The bible was totally highjacked at the council of Nicea 300 A D, and even more during the inquisition at the late middle ages. Many things were taken out and many more put in. For instance there are the books of the Apocrypha: Book of Enoch, and so on and on. Also I believe that the Old Testament and New Testament should be looked at as totally two different works.

There also another issue that has always bother, it seems that the "God" of the old testament do no fit with the "God" of the new, and even less with the source creator most of us believe in. Many times this god of the old testament is a revengeful character who commands killing and revenge. Is he the real god of Israel or an Impostor? I just don see how this one fits with a God of love, mercy and forgiveness. The argument that this was a different time and era is not enough for me to convince me that this is a God of love. There is something very odd here.

If there is something I don't know please let me know.


Roland el Centauro

[RedeZra]

where did Abraham the Patriarch of the Abramic religions come from ?


"And Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram's wife, and they went out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan; and they came to Haran and dwelt there." - Genesis 11:31


the traditional site of Abraham's birth according to Turkish Muslim tradition is a cave in the vicinity of the ancient Seleucid city Edessa now called Urfa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urfa) southeast in Turkey

where Mevlid Halil Mosque now stands close to the cave which is a place of pilgrimage


also according to Turkish Muslim tradition Nimrod had Abraham launched from a catapult from the city citadel into a pile of burning wood

but God intervened and turned the fire into water and the wood into fish

and that is why there is a pool of sacred carps in downtown Urfa




http://www.edwebproject.org/anatolia/images/urfa.pool1.jpg



Urfa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urfa)is also known as the birthplace of Job and not far from Göbekli Tepe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) Harran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harran) and Nevali Cori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevali_Cori)

so it seems that this small area is the cradle of civilisation right after the Deluge

[Lord Sidious]

So, you aren't going to answer my question?
Even though everyone can see you attempting to dodge it?

[pharoah21]

This is hilarious. How did Turkey and wood that turned in to fish come in to the thread? That's the only thing I've heard that sounds more crazy than the theory of evolution.

[RedeZra]

So, you aren't going to answer my question?
Even though everyone can see you attempting to dodge it?

patience Sith prince

the incident with the witches was so long ago

and i don't believe women were being burnt for herbalism

but i know there is a spiritual war going on

and that we here on earth are victims of this war


so grouphug :grouphug: ? forgive and forget ? move on ?


let's learn from the past and live in the moment

[RedeZra]

This is hilarious. How did Turkey and wood that turned in to fish come in to the thread? That's the only thing I've heard that sounds more crazy than the theory of evolution.

nothing is impossible for God not even turning fire to water and wood to fish ; )

and besides it's my thread hehe i can turn it any which way i want

[Lord Sidious]

So, you aren't going to answer my question?
Even though everyone can see you attempting to dodge it?

patience Sith prince

the incident with the witches was so long ago

and i don't believe women were being burnt for herbalism

but i know there is a spiritual war going on

and that we here on earth are victims of this war


so grouphug :grouphug: ? forgive and forget ? move on ?


let's learn from the past and live in the moment

Forgive? Yes, of course.
Forget? Never.
And we don't fail to notice you trying to evade this nasty section of history involving your church.
What you believe and what you don't are not relevant in the big picture.
People were murdered because they stuck to the old ways and it has happened for millenia, since the church started.
The sooner you nuggets take the damn training wheels off your bikes, the sooner we can move on.

[RedeZra]

Forgive? Yes, of course.

People were murdered because they stuck to the old ways and it has happened for millenia, since the church started.
The sooner you nuggets take the damn training wheels off your bikes, the sooner we can move on.

but im flyin so im not comin down

good let's forgive it's a start and ok never forget


war has been raging since before Christ on the Cross and see it's still war

and a big one seems to be brewing on the horizon


duck take cover fly too you fools run to God

[Lord Sidious]

Forgive? Yes, of course.

People were murdered because they stuck to the old ways and it has happened for millenia, since the church started.
The sooner you nuggets take the damn training wheels off your bikes, the sooner we can move on.

but im flyin so im not comin down

good let's forgive it's a start and ok never forget


war has been raging since before Christ on the Cross and see it's still war

and a big one seems to be brewing on the horizon


duck take cover fly too you fools run to God

Thanks, but no thanks.
I have seen your god and I don't need a war god.
If I did, I would have Tyr.

[modwiz]

Forgive? Yes, of course.

People were murdered because they stuck to the old ways and it has happened for millenia, since the church started.
The sooner you nuggets take the damn training wheels off your bikes, the sooner we can move on.

but im flyin so im not comin down

good let's forgive it's a start and ok never forget


war has been raging since before Christ on the Cross and see it's still war

and a big one seems to be brewing on the horizon


duck take cover fly too you fools run to God

I see a little Gandalf quote here. The word, too, is an extra. Is it time for battle with the Balrog now?

M'lord and Pharaoh 21, may I propose that we let the Bibler's chat amongst themselves. The OP in particular seems to find his/her purpose in playing with you. It is my estimation that this thread would die of boredom without people taking the OP to task. I say let it become a thread of holy rollers saying amen to each other.

With that said, I have a Balrog to slay. Meet you in Fangorn Forest.

[RedeZra]

[

duck take cover fly too you fools run to God

I see a little Gandalf quote here. The word, too, is an extra.



yes it is and yes again

how perceptive of you ; )


i dont need to quote and tell when you're around hehe

[Seikou-Kishi]

Forgive? Yes, of course.

People were murdered because they stuck to the old ways and it has happened for millenia, since the church started.
The sooner you nuggets take the damn training wheels off your bikes, the sooner we can move on.

but im flyin so im not comin down

good let's forgive it's a start and ok never forget


war has been raging since before Christ on the Cross and see it's still war

and a big one seems to be brewing on the horizon


duck take cover fly too you fools run to God

Thanks, but no thanks.
I have seen your god and I don't need a war god.
If I did, I would have Tyr.

Now, now, Sid; that's not very Gaelic of you :P

[Rozzy]

This thread is about as accurate as a Skud missile, I think something about the blind was mentioned in Matthew, LOL.

[Lord Sidious]

Forgive? Yes, of course.

People were murdered because they stuck to the old ways and it has happened for millenia, since the church started.
The sooner you nuggets take the damn training wheels off your bikes, the sooner we can move on.

but im flyin so im not comin down

good let's forgive it's a start and ok never forget


war has been raging since before Christ on the Cross and see it's still war

and a big one seems to be brewing on the horizon


duck take cover fly too you fools run to God

Thanks, but no thanks.
I have seen your god and I don't need a war god.
If I did, I would have Tyr.

Now, now, Sid; that's not very Gaelic of you :P

The Dane in me is restless. ;)

[RedeZra]

Patriarch Abraham was an Aramean (Syrian) from the area of Aram-Naharaim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aram_Naharaim) between the upper Tigris and upper Euphrates



an area where we find Urfa Harran Nevali Cori and Gøbekli Tepe



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Smithsonian_map_g%C3%B6bekli_tepe.jpg


"And for Aram there came forth the fourth portion, all the land of Mesopotamia between the Tigris and the Euphrates to the north of the Chaldees to the border of the mountains of Asshur and the land of 'Arara." - The Book of Jubilees 9:5


in The Book of Jubilees chapter 9 we read how the sons of Noah divided unto their sons all the earth by lot

[58andfixed]

Although this thread quickly had substance to it, the content degrades to the level of when "God's General" used to call Art Bell on Coast-to-Coast-AM

"Art Bell Vs JC on Coast to Coast AM"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSYT639Iu7o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSYT639Iu7o

1m 8s 1,709 views

Attention seems to be the agenda, not validating the content of any Bible.

The posts will stand in permanent testimony of those who hand guards the last throwing of the light switch of the empty halls of Organized Religions called Churches.

- 58

[RedeZra]

names... ever wonder about them ?

take for instance Egypt... why is ancient Egypt called



Mizraim in Hebrew

Msrm in Ugarit

Musur in Assyrian

Musri in Babylonian

Misr in Arabic


could it be because biblical Mizraim who was son of Ham son of Noah the Floodhero was alloted the land Mizraim which is Egypt



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizraim


According to Eusebius' Chronicon, Manetho had suggested that the great age of antiquity in which the later Egyptians boasted had actually preceded the flood, and that they were really descended from Mizraim, who settled there anew. A similar story is related by medieval Islamic historians such as Sibt ibn al-Jawzi, the Egyptian Ibn Abd-el-Hakem, and the Persians al-Tabari and Muhammad Khwandamir, stating that the pyramids, etc. had been built by the wicked races before the deluge, but that Noah's descendant Mizraim (Masar or Mesr) was entrusted with reoccupying the region afterward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizraim

[RedeZra]

The Bronze Age collapse



what happened to the Egyptian Empire by the Nile the Hittite Empire in Turkey the Mycenaean Kingdoms in Greece and Minoan Crete over 3000 years ago ?


"Every important Anatolian site during the preceding Late Bronze Age shows a destruction layer, and it appears that here civilization did not recover to the same level as that of the Hittites for another thousand years"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse


Hattusas the Hittite capital was burned and abandoned as was Karaoğlan and Troy was destroyed at least twice

Cyprus cities Enkomi Kition and Sinda destroyed and abandoned

Syrian coast city Ugarit was burned to the ground and Sukkot Lachish Ashdod Ashkelon Akko Jaffa in fact every coastal city between Troy and Gaza was violently destroyed and often left unoccupied thereafter

Levant inland cities Hazor Bethel Beit Shemesh Eglon Debir and other sites were destroyed

all Mycenaean palaces destroyed and up to 90% of small sites in the Peloponnese were abandoned suggesting a major depopulation ushering in the Greek Dark Ages which lasted more than 400 years

Norsuntepe Emar and Carchemish in Mesopotamia destroyed


"Anne Killebrew has shown that cities such as Jerusalem were large and important walled settlements in the Middle Bronze IIB and Iron Age IIC periods (ca. 1800–1550 and 720–586 BCE), but that during the intervening Late Bronze (LB) and Iron Age I and IIA/B Ages sites like Jerusalem were small and relatively insignificant and unfortified towns."

- Killebrew Ann E. "Biblical Jerusalem: An Archaeological Assessment" in Andrew G. Vaughn and Ann E. Killebrew, eds., "Jerusalem in Bible and Archaeology: The First Temple Period" (SBL Symposium Series 18; Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 2003)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse

[panopticon]

Urfa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urfa)is also known as the birthplace of Job and not far from Göbekli Tepe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) Harran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harran) and Nevali Cori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevali_Cori)

so it seems that this small area is the cradle of civilisation right after the Deluge

G'day RedeZra,

Interesting hypothesis, though I don't follow your logic.

Do you realise that you are relying on traditional stories (dogma) to prove your argument (belief) concerning the validity of an event depicted in a traditional story (dogma)? Event 1 is proven (historicity of the towns seems valid), the Koran/Old Testament tells me so, therefore event 2 must have happened (the deluge).

I am not saying that an isolated flooding event didn't happen (there is some evidence to support that areas in the Mediterranean and Middle East were flooded following an outburst flooding event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood)), only that the argument presented seems based on the validity of a collection of texts (from the perspective of a small tribe) that have been proven to be historically inaccurate and/or exaggerated.

Again I will refer you to the excellent documentary series 58andfixed posted earlier in this thread:

For those interested "The Bible Unearthed" contributes much to an understanding of the development of Bibles and Organized Religion.

1 of 4. The Patriarchs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t440bxhn1qA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t440bxhn1qA

51m 30s 2,549 views

Aired in 2005.

2/4. The.Exodus.
3/4. The.Kings.
4/4. The.Book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

"The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts is a 2001 book about the archaeology of Israel and its relationship to the origins of the Hebrew Bible."

"The authors are Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University, and Neil Asher Silberman, a contributing editor to Archaeology Magazine."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cb/Bible_Unearthed.jpg

****

The potential for divisibility only reduces as more people become informed, aware and less biased.

- 58

I have nothing against anyone believing anything they want.
Someone who believes that a turtle lives between the great holes in the sky (after all it has been scientifically proven (http://www.space.com/533-surprising-black-hole-milky-center.html) that there are black holes at the centre of our galaxy) has my support to believe that if they wish.
However if they told me that theirs is the only way I would ask them for proof of the turtle.
Anything else is dogma (traditional stories/teachings) passed off as truth. :tape2:
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Addendum:
I just read modwiz's post above and agree.

[Ellisa]

I don't want to get involved with the whole Bible as truth thing- but I haven't noticed anyone pointing out that the Bible is actually two books. (This could be because I haven't read EVERY word of every post, so sorry if this has been stated before).

The first book, the Old Testament is a recording of rules of conduct and behaviour, some semi- historical events concerning a Bronze Age people, and a series of prophesies about the arrival of their Messiah. The second, The New Testament, contains the teachings of Jesus, who, according to those who believe, fulfilled (and still fulfils) those prophesies. He is the Messiah, he is called the Christ and he is the son of god who has chosen to become a man. His main purpose in doing that is to be able to promise eternal life through the sacrifice of his own life. People who follow Jesus Christ are (obviously) christians.

The problem between the two books is that one was written for a nomadic people of the Bronze Age and has many things in it which jar our modern views of justice and decency. The second book, in which Jesus makes an appearance, is of much later origin and has many teachings that are very relevant to us today. So that could be why people posting here are worrying about the difference in the 'old' god and the 'new' one. They are in fact different, and this was solved by arriving at the notion of the Trinity- that is God the father, God the son (Jesus), and God the holy spirit.. Jesus held views which were so upsetting to the government of the time that they killed him. He was a good and brave man whose message was of kindness, peace and tolerance.

Whether or not you believe he was in fact the son of god or not depends on your faith, but you have to wonder if his fate would be any different today1

[pharoah21]

I don't want to get involved with the whole Bible as truth thing- but I haven't noticed anyone pointing out that the Bible is actually two books. (This could be because I haven't read EVERY word of every post, so sorry if this has been stated before).

The first book, the Old Testament is a recording of rules of conduct and behaviour, some semi- historical events concerning a Bronze Age people, and a series of prophesies about the arrival of their Messiah. The second, The New Testament, contains the teachings of Jesus, who, according to those who believe, fulfilled (and still fulfils) those prophesies. He is the Messiah, he is called the Christ and he is the son of god who has chosen to become a man. His main purpose in doing that is to be able to promise eternal life through the sacrifice of his own life. People who follow Jesus Christ are (obviously) christians.

The problem between the two books is that one was written for a nomadic people of the Bronze Age and has many things in it which jar our modern views of justice and decency. The second book, in which Jesus makes an appearance, is of much later origin and has many teachings that are very relevant to us today. So that could be why people posting here are worrying about the difference in the 'old' god and the 'new' one. They are in fact different, and this was solved by arriving at the notion of the Trinity- that is God the father, God the son (Jesus), and God the holy spirit.. Jesus held views which were so upsetting to the government of the time that they killed him. He was a good and brave man whose message was of kindness, peace and tolerance.

Whether or not you believe he was in fact the son of god or not depends on your faith, but you have to wonder if his fate would be any different today1

It's not two books, it's 66 books divided in to two sections.........probably no coincidence that the number there is 66 either.

http://www.apocalypse-soon.com/images/666_mark_of_the_beast.jpg

http://www.2012.com.co/wp-content/uploads/mvbthumbs/img_4126_666-mark-of-the-beast-revealed-at-last-in-latin-as-xxx.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6m4kQyBJAdE/TXYUukh2rpI/AAAAAAAAAQo/Y8J__SA7RK8/s1600/mark_of_the_beast.jpg

[panopticon]

It's not two books, it's 66 books divided in to two sections.........probably no coincidence that the number there is 66 either.


G'day pharoah21,

I wasn't going to contribute to this thread further but just wanted to thank you.
I can truthfully say this had never occurred to me.
Thank you for pointing it out.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[58andfixed]

Thanks for your input Ellisa, and yes, we've gone way past that most Bibles are divided up into two parts. There IS a lot of good material buried in this thread.

So I encourage you to take some time, and get involved, because that's what most people are used to NOT doing --- as long as the garbage cans are emptied when one gets home from work, and people keep taking paper in exchange for goods, every "believes" they don't need to get "involved" with the JFK assassination, whether the FED is private or public, nor whether people want to believe whether any Bible is anywhere near as accurate as some purport it to be.

I'm not Howard Beal, this isn't "Network," and I don't want anyone to get mad.

People get to opt out of the difficulties of whether the Warren Commission was accurate and truthful, or whether the 9/11 Commission was accurate and truthful, or whether any Bible is accurate and truthful.

It doesn't really directly involve anyone, or does it ?

Everyone IS involved that breathes air on this planet. We are living the consequences of avoiding these issues -- just that because some people are not getting hit in the head with a tomato, these same people think everything is going to be like a Disney movie. In real life there is a limit to the number of castles.

What we ignore now is coming back with consequences for our children, our children's children, and the friends of our children's children. We get to choose to ignore these events and issues.

However, I DO care if someone want to be misled with false ideas. There are consequences everyone has to endure because of each of our biased ignorance.

The same kind of thinking is showing up a voting booths to take part in elections.

There IS something worth understanding, and it begins with the understanding that our collective choices comes back with consequences.

I make my statements intended as encouragement to become less ignorant -- not perfect, or my way because of my little rant. Just less ignorant than this morning.

I don't want to make threats. Threats don't work, just like pre-emptive action doesn't work.

I don't find it my task to take out every stump that wants to stand in my way [and I'm writing in general terms -- so please don't take this personally -- this is meant more for those reading over our shoulders, just the opportunity offered by your post is an opportunity for a rebuttal for a host of fixed opinions on this thread] because there are plenty of minds digging for truth that are much more akin to soil well worth tilling.

Mechanisms like Bibles divide people. Don't take my opinion for a fact. Apologist's own writings acknowledge over 33,000 denominations. That is evidence worth considering. How is it one supposed 'perfect, complete and accurate' book result in 33,000 denominations over 1,700 years ? Might there be a problem somewhere ?

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/WorldChristianEncy.jpg

The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"

*****

These are clues to the divisibility of humans.

Acquiescence to divisibility is acquiescence to a continuation of at least what has transpired over the last 2,000 years, and more if you're willing to believe that.

If anyone takes any thought from this thread, ponder on if there is any deeper or closer truth to the "divisibility of man" as you prepare to fall asleep.

If the thought stays with you, there might be a nugget of truth to my observation.

If this thought be one that bites deep enough to ignite more curiosity, then perhaps knowing why Bibles divide, just as why Politics divide, or any beliefs divide -- might be the beginning of a trip into the rabbit warren.

One might come up with enough awareness to contribute to the preparation of the next generation for the coming changes.

If the coming changes degrades into chaos, it's only because the captain at the helm has waited too long before preparing for the rocky shore that have always been in the same spot.

It won't be much different than when voices were calling to the FED back in 2006 that there was a housing bubble, but Ben said not to worry -- he didn't see any bubble.

Not seeing the bubble, didn't stop the 2009 implosion.

Houston has a problem. We are hearing and seeing the creaking and the groaning. There is a connection between symptoms that are chasing people to occupy streets and mechanisms such as Bibles.

There is something worth understanding.

I'm gonna hop down from my tiny little soapbox, read the fliers for any special deals, and cut out some coupons now. :)

If I need to come back and sweep up after any mess I've left behind -- please let me know, I wouldn't want to leave behind any uncrossed t's or undotted i's.

Besides, maybe there could be a more fruitful perception, and I'd like to find out if perhaps maybe you did spend a little more time in the thread !

- 58





I don't want to get involved with the whole Bible as truth thing- but I haven't noticed anyone pointing out that the Bible is actually two books.

(This could be because I haven't read EVERY word of every post, so sorry if this has been stated before).

[applejax]

whew this thread is pretty...."out there" ...just going through some of the messages i'm holding my breath (not in a good way). what i see here is similar to what my uncle and his brothers (including my dad) went through when he went to a different denomination. it's one of many reasons why i'm disillusioned to religion in general. he kept saying my new church was better than yours and you have to go through them, etc...it was seeing adults fighting like 5 year olds. it was insane.

i mean i grew up going to cathecism school, read through the bible out of boredom (i honestly like the revelations, i don't know why), and learned that god loves all, yet religion itself is dividing people against people. i never took any theology class, but from my point of view, i feel that Christianity came from one book (and one country). Splitting to different kinds of Christianity baffles me. a few extra words are just the difference in the book. if not that, it's an updated, yet changed version of the one before. the other problem is that we also cannot agree to what the writings mean (which in turn splits into a different kind of Christianity). so for me, man messed up the books, messed up the true meanings of them, and also changed it to benefit them for their present time. (sorry there's a word here that i wanted to use instead of "messed up" i just can't think of it :p ) when you think of religion as a whole though, universally, there was a purpose for God to give us his teachings -- it was to spread the word about love. (well that's my understanding of it is. pardon me for having such a simplistic mind)

this is why, if i'm going to pray, i will do it in my own house, at my own time. i've read the book and i got the understanding of what i needed to learn out of it, but i refuse to tell others to worship my god/lord just because it's better than theirs. in fact learning from one religion to another helps us open our eyes to what they are trying to teach as well. the problem is we interpret things different and this is where everything gets divided.

to continue from my uncle -- when his mom (my grandma) passed, he refused to go to the church she went (and he used to go to), but i told and also asked him, "your own mother passed away. if you put religion aside, we're family. if you want to say something about religion, then didn't god say, 'honor your mother and father?' if that is so, please, do this for her." he showed up in that church at her funeral. in turn, to support him because it really feels like the whole family ostracized him, i went to his church. the only difference is there are no images (crosses, pictures, statues) and genders are sitting separate from each other. they are still preaching the same things in the catholic church we all went to.

so if you knock at my door, i will say, "thank you for sharing; i hope you have a good day."

[RedeZra]

Urfa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urfa)is also known as the birthplace of Job and not far from Göbekli Tepe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) Harran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harran) and Nevali Cori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevali_Cori)

so it seems that this small area is the cradle of civilisation right after the Deluge

G'day RedeZra,

Interesting hypothesis, though I don't follow your logic.


Again I will refer you to the excellent documentary series 58andfixed posted earlier in this thread:

For those interested "The Bible Unearthed" contributes much to an understanding of the development of Bibles and Organized Religion.




i don't spend so much time watching clips from the establishment but i will give it a peek


the Flood was worldwide and devestating so much so that only 8 people survived it just some thousand years ago

yes it is a hypothesis but since it is confirmed in the Bible then it must be true... just have to connect the dots and dig some more

besides the Sumerians speak of the same a Flood and a time when the people spoke one language

[RedeZra]

Again I will refer you to the excellent documentary series 58andfixed posted earlier in this thread:

For those interested "The Bible Unearthed" contributes much to an understanding of the development of Bibles and Organized Religion.

1 of 4. The Patriarchs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t440bxhn1qA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t440bxhn1qA





i've just spent almost an agonizing hour watching the first episode of this docusoap

in where the establishment tells us that the Bible must have been written in the Kingdom of Judah around 700 BC

because camels were not domesticated before this time ?!


this is not only an extremly weak argument... it's not even true


http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/camel.html


Scholars hold different views about the time when domesticated camels first appeared on the scene. In the opinion of R. Bullet the taming of camels was practised even before 2500 B.C.3 According to F.E. Zeuner it started somewhere between 2900 and 1900 B.C.4 Both scholars thus think that domesticated camels occurred already before Abraham, whom we date at about 1900-1725 B.C.

The oldest pieces of evidence about dromedaries being domesticated have been found in Umm an-Nar, a city on an island in the Persian Gulf off the coast of Oman. Here 200 bones and teeth of camels have been excavated together with objects dating back to about 2700 B.C

The earliest evidence that Bactrian camels were domesticated originates from Shahr-i-Sokhta in the east of Iran. A jar filled with camel's dung and fragments of camel's hair, dating back to about 2500 B.C., has been discovered here.

In 1977 archaeologist Edith Porada carried out a study of a cylindrical seal found in Syria; it shows two small figures riding on a two-humped animal, obviously a camel. The seal dates back to the 18th century B.C.

Definite proof that dromedaries were already domesticated in early times was given in 1912. Near Aswan a rock painting was discovered which showed a man pulling along a dromedary on a rope, plus seven hieroglyphic characters. On account of the writing G. Möller dated the inscription to the period of the sixth dynasty (2320-2150 B.C.), and G. Schweinfurth concluded to the same period for the painting on account of its style.

This find, which has not become widely known, presents conclusive evidence that Egypt had domesticated dromedaries as early as 2200 B.C. or even earlier, anyway long before the days of Abraham. The allegation of certain scholars that statements about camels in the book of Genesis are anachronisms only exposes their lack of knowledge.

http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/camel.html

[RedeZra]

Adam where are you ?

i am naked and in hiding

Who told you that you are naked ?


http://static.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/453816-bigthumbnail.jpg



an enlightened being like Ramana Maharshi roamed about butt naked in a spontanous carefree state like another baby child in a grown man's body before he eventually wrapped a rag around his hips

and this attitude seems to be the thumb rule to these enlightened innocences

who have overcome the carnal mind and are again established in the spiritual mind



Adam and Eve in Eden were naked too til they ate of that one tree God told them not to eat

how come of all the herbs and trees in the Garden they had to taste that one which God warned them about ?


just one simple rule unto two free wills


eat of every herb and tree in Eden but dont eat of that one tree in the midst of the Garden

the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

which will kill you



some say God should never have planted that tree and all would be well

and i believe that is true because let's face it


God did test our first parents

just a simple test of trust



as parents we test our authority and as children we challenge it

same with God and mankind

today yesterday tomorrow


God knows best and wants our best

but we don't have to listen and we don't



it's much more exiting to dance with the Devil and run with the wolves

[RedeZra]

the Ark of Noah


in the mountainous region north of Lake Van far East in Eastern Turkey beside the border of Iran and Armenia high above the sea

is a big boat

or the petrified remains of something shaped like a boat littered with myriads of metal rivets found to contain high-tech metal alloys such as titanium magnesium and aluminum



http://www.mountararattrek.com/images/turkey_map.jpg

http://www.adiyamanli.org/agri.html



"Then the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat." - Genesis 8:4




http://www.mountararattrek.com/images/noahs_ark.jpg



Noah's Ark National Park is located 10 km south of Mount Ararat at about 2000 m above sea level




http://www.adiyamanli.org/noahark/narkvisitsign.jpg

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/arkvisit.jpg




the Ark site is known as the Durupınar site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durup%C4%B1nar_site) after the Turkish Army Captain İlhan Durupınar who first identified the anomalous boat-shape in this area from Turkish Air Force aerial photos in 1959


thnx to amateur explorer Ron Wyatt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt) the Durupınar site is a thorn in the side to those that deny the validity of the Bible

that would be the establishment and all the people they have fooled so far

[RedeZra]

Babel



since the Ark is in Ararat

then some of the post-flood people came down from the mountains to the high saline Lake Van (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Van) situated 1,640 m above sea level

close to the Nemrut volcano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemrut_(volcano)) which is named after Nimrod who is said to have ruled this area in about 2100 BC

and would be the source of volcanic obsidian found at Hamoukar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamoukar) in northeastern Syria near the Iraqi border


Hamoukar is a large archaeological site and the remains of one of the oldest known cities in the world where the archeologists have found five large stone ovens large enough to feed huge numbers of people on an institutional scale

perhaps the ovens were also used to bake bricks for Babel which was situated in the plains of Shinar according to the Bible

or the Sinjar plain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinjar) as it is known today which houses Tell Hamoukar




http://vigilantcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/eu_strasbourg_babel.gif



"And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there." - Genesis 11:2

"Then they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake [them] thoroughly." They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar." - Genesis 11:3

"And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top [is] in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth."" - Genesis 11:4



Hamoukar is close to the city of Urfa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Eanl%C4%B1urfa) which is the biblical city of Ur according to Turkish Muslim traditions from where Abraham traveled to Haran before entering Caanan or the Promised Land


so Sumer and southern Mesopotamia rose to prominence after Babel and the scattering of nations

but it all began again on the plains of Shinar in Syria

the opposition to God and the allegiance to Satan




http://www.essortment.com/hamoukar-worlds-oldest-known-city-syria-33559.html

[Beren]

Red,

do you think that anything survived that furnace in Alexandria`s library long time ago???

Does Vatican keeps under lock a lot of hidden books of ancient science and Biblical texts or it`s just exaggerated?

[RedeZra]

Red,

do you think that anything survived that furnace in Alexandria`s library long time ago???

Does Vatican keeps under lock a lot of hidden books of ancient science and Biblical texts or it`s just exaggerated?

hi Beren

no i don't think papyrus scrolls survived the fire in the Library of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria)

and according to info from wikipedia many of the scrolls seem to have been copies of originals

besides Alexandria was not the only library in the ancient world as there was a contemporary Library of Pergamum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Pergamum) in Turkey

as there were also other libraries around about the ancient world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_libraries_of_the_ancient_world



and no i don't think the Vatican has hidden books shelfed some place else than the secret archives which are no longer secret but open to researchers since 1881


but i bet the Smithsonian Institution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_Institution) has secret artifacts stacked away from prying public eyes

[modwiz]

Red,

do you think that anything survived that furnace in Alexandria`s library long time ago???

Does Vatican keeps under lock a lot of hidden books of ancient science and Biblical texts or it`s just exaggerated?

hi Beren

no i don't think papyrus scrolls survived the fire in the Library of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria)

and according to info from wikipedia many of the scrolls seem to have been copies of originals

besides Alexandria was not the only library in the ancient world as there was a contemporary Library of Pergamum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Pergamum) in Turkey

as there were also other libraries around about the ancient world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_libraries_of_the_ancient_world



and no i don't think the Vatican has hidden books shelfed some place else than the secret archives which are no longer secret but open to researchers since 1881


but i bet the Smithsonian Institution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_Institution) has secret artifacts stacked away from prying public eyes

:bad::bad::bad::bad::bad:

[Lifebringer]

Guess thats why "woman the life bearer was barely mentioned and continues today, besides I found the Urantia Book more true than King James's "version" royale when he was at war with the Vatican.

[Unified Serenity]

the Flood was worldwide and devestating so much so that only 8 people survived it just some thousand years ago

yes it is a hypothesis but since it is confirmed in the Bible then it must be true... just have to connect the dots and dig some more

besides the Sumerians speak of the same a Flood and a time when the people spoke one language

I think Charles Weisman put together a very clear study showing why it's more tradition of men to defend this worldwide flood idea than proper study of the word. Here is an excellent study showing the fallacy of using the logic of applying the word "eretz" to be a worldwide flood.

INTRODUCTION

The Biblical story of Noah, the Ark and the Flood is perhaps the oldest and best known story that exists today. The great Deluge, commonly called "Noah's Flood," as recorded in Genesis 6, 7 & 8, has been a subject of intense controversy and debate. Much of this debate surrounds the scope and reality of the Biblical account. Some say it was a literal worldwide flood, others say it is merely an allegorical story. Certainly if the truth of this one subject were made evident many of the debates surrounding the Bible would no longer exist.

During the nineteenth century, two doctrines gained strength and popularity among Christians regarding what the Bible says (1) That the earth and all that is on it is very young in age, and (2) that there was a worldwide flood that destroyed all life upon the earth except that which was in Noah's Ark.

In support of these concepts there has developed a religious sect known as creationism, lead by those known as creationists. Creationism is based on Christian "fundamentalism" or "Judeo-Christian" theology, which many are now discovering to be a distorted Christianity (a mixture of the Bible and human precepts).

Without either of these two concepts, the doctrine of creationism cannot stand and will quickly vanish from the minds of any rational person. It is the intent of this material to show that the idea of a worldwide flood is neither biblical, historical nor scientific. In this endeavour, we will need to examine exactly what is and is not being said today on this matter, and compare it to evidence derived from the Bible, science and history.


THE FACE OF THE EARTH

Here we will examine the Bible itself and see if the Bible really says what the literalists, fundamentalists, and creationists claim it says about a worldwide flood.

From the reading of the Genesis account of the Flood in the English translation it would seem that it was worldwide in scope if we take the passages involved strictly literally. Various passages tell us that life was to be destroyed from the face of the "earth" (Gen. 7:12), the waters were on the face of the whole "earth" (Gen. 8:9), etc.

When these passages were written it would be hard to believe they were made with the understanding of a global planet. We have to recall that it was not much more than 500 years ago that people believed the "earth" was flat.

The word "earth" used in these passages of Genesis is the Hebrew word "erets" (Strong's O.T. #776). Erets does not actually carry any connotation of a global, spherical planet in its translation. While it has been translated as "earth" many times, it is also translated "country" 140 times, "land" 1,476 times, and "ground" 96 times in the Old Testament. In the various references to erets it can be shown it is most often used to infer a limited land area rather than the entire planet.

The people living at the time of Moses had no concept of our global planet as we do today. The earth or erets to them would have been the extent of the geographical land area that they knew existed. It thus would not mean the planet, and to apply this literal meaning throughout the Bible causes some real and obvious problems.

For example, when Cain was cursed by God, he was driven "from the face of the earth" (Gen. 4:14). Yet it is clear that he remained "in the earth" as a fugitive. Cain was driven out of a limited land area, not from the planet.

After God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah one of Lot's daughters stated, "there is not a man in the earth (erets) to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth (erets)" (Gen. 19:31). She could not have meant that there were no men anywhere on planet earth for we know that there obviously were. Rather, she was saying that "there is not a man in erets" or in the land area they were in (the area of Sodom) for they were all destroyed there.

When God had told Abraham, "Get thee out of thy country (erets) ... unto a land (erets) that I will show thee" (Gen. 12:1), He did not mean for Abraham to leave the earth and go to another earth or planet. The word 'erets' was referring to a limited land area just as it was in Genesis 7:10—"the waters of the flood were upon the erets" or upon the land.

Creationists have arrogantly quoted Genesis 8:9 ("for the waters were on the face of the whole earth") and stated that it obviously means a global flood. As the creationist Dr. Morris states:

It almost seems frivolous to try to show that the Bible teaches a worldwide Flood. This fact is obvious in the mere reading of Genesis 6:9 and one who does not see it there will hardly be influenced by other reasoning.1

Perhaps the most common error made in understanding the Scriptures is allowing inconsistencies to exist in the underlying principles it teaches. Creationists are no exception to this problem and such statements as that above clearly reveal their lack of Biblical study and understanding. Their aim is to support tradition over Scripture. In doing so, they allow a misinterpretation of a verse to contradict other verses.

In the Bible the word 'erets' rarely means the planet earth. For instance, during the plagues upon Egypt we read that "the rain was not poured upon the earth [erets]" (Exodus 9:33). Everyone understands erets here to mean only a local land area—the land of Egypt. Why, then, in reading in Genesis that "the waters of the flood were upon the earth [erets]" or that "the rain was upon the earth [erets]” (Gen. 7:10, 12) should we assume the whole planet is meant? The rain that fell on the earth at the time of the Flood was also confined to a local land area.

In Exodus 10, verses 5 through 15, we read of a plague of locusts in Egypt:

5 And they shall cover the face of the earth [erets], that one cannot be able to see the earth [erets].

15 For they covered the face of the whole earth [erets] …through all the land [erets] of Egypt.

Again it should be evident that this locust plague covered only the limited land of Egypt, as shown in verse 15, and also in verse 14 which states "the locusts went up over all the land (erets) of Egypt." Why, then, should any insist that when it says the flood waters "were on the face of the whole earth (erets)" in Genesis 8:9, it must mean the waters were of a worldwide scale? It is the same wording used in both cases and interpreting erets to mean a limited land area maintains consistency in such verses.

At the time when Joseph was in Egypt there existed a "famine over all the face of the earth [erets]" (Gen. 41:56). Was there a famine in Greenland, in the tropics of Africa and South America, in Antarctica, in the Hawaiian Islands? There is no evidence of a global famine at this period of time. However, there was a famine in all the lands that had contact with Egypt at that time. Because of the famine the Bible states "all countries [erets] came to Egypt—to buy corn" (Gen. 41:57). Certainly the Eskimos and Polynesians never came to Egypt.

Erets is often used in the plural in many instances (Gen. 10:5, Lev. 26:36, Ezra 9:7, 2 Kings 19:11). If erets meant the planet earth, then all planets suffered from the famine and came to Egypt to buy corn! To have erets mean the planet earth makes the entire context an absurdity! The plurality has a limited rather than universal meaning.

Likewise, when we read about "all the hills" being covered or "all flesh" destroyed, it is referring to "all" that existed in the "whole" land or erets where the Flood was, not all that were on the planet earth. When God spoke of destroying "all flesh," He said he "will destroy them with the earth" (Gen. 6:13). The planet earth was not destroyed nor were all flesh on the planet, only that flesh and land (erets) where Noah lived was destroyed. The words "all," "whole" and "every" are not to be taken in a universal context. If they are then it can be said that all the hills on all the other planets were flooded.

After the Israelites had been delivered from Egypt and settled in Canaan, they were described in Scripture as "a people… which covereth the face of the earth [erets]" (Num. 22:5, 11). Not even creationists could say that Israelites covered every square foot of the earth's surface both land and sea. Yet the Bible says so! Does it not? The Israelites did not cover the planet only the expanse of land, or erets, where they were then dwelling.

When such events were originally written, whether it be of the Flood or the locust plague in Egypt, the land area they transpired in was the centre of attention and encompassed the total scope of intent and field of understanding. In this context a local affair or event can appear to have a universal meaning. Once this is understood, the entire account of the Genesis Flood, as well as these other events mentioned, make sense and become very credible and in line with history and science.

Jeremiah once spoke of a flood overflowing the erets, and though he used "flood" to figuratively describe an invading army, it provides an interesting comparison:

Thus says the LORD; Behold, waters rise up out of the north, and shall be an overflowing flood, and shall overflow the land [erets], and all that is therein; the city, and them that dwell therein; then the men shall cry, and all the inhabitants of the land [erets] shall howl (Jer. 47:1-2).

If the word 'erets' in this passage were translated "earth" as it was in Genesis 7, it would sound like a universal flood. It thus could read - "an overflowing flood shall overflow the earth ... and all the inhabitants of the earth.” This sounds worldwide in scope but we know it was a flood covering only the land [erets] of the Philistines!

We find many instances in the Bible where it speaks of "the earth," or "the face of the earth" in which it clearly refers to a limited land area or country. When we thus read the Genesis account of the Flood, the erets should be read as "land" as a more meaningful and correct expression - "And the flood was forty days upon the land" (Gen. 7:17), "And the water prevailed exceedingly upon the land" (Gen. 7:19), etc. The waters of the Flood prevailed upon the "land" in which Noah lived and not the entire planet.

from http://www.orange-street-church.org/text/noah-flood.htm

[panopticon]

i've just spent almost an agonizing hour watching the first episode of this docusoap
in where the establishment tells us that the Bible must have been written in the Kingdom of Judah around 700 BC
because camels were not domesticated before this time ?!
this is not only an extremly weak argument... it's not even true

http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/camel.html



G'day All,
I have been away for a couple of weeks on walk about but thought I'd reply to the above as I had redirected RedeZra to the documentary series in question.
Just to clarify:

The documentary does not rest its case on a 3 minute section about camels.
It relies on archaeological evidence from diggings in the Megiddo region that tell the story of a groups valour and courage in the first millennium BCE.
It tells how they created a culture and a history for themselves.

It is an amazing story and I truly enjoy learning about it.

In regards to the quoted text from the BGA (who state (http://www.bga.nl/en/aboutbga/) 'The Bible is the true Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit. This holds equally for all historical accounts the Bible gives us')...
There was some selective editing in the quotes:


In 1977 archaeologist Edith Porada carried out a study of a cylindrical seal found in Syria; it shows two small figures riding on a two-humped animal, obviously a camel. The seal dates back to the 18th century B.C.

From the website:

In 1977 archaeologist Edith Porada carried out a study of a cylindrical seal found in Syria; it shows two small figures riding on a two-humped animal, obviously a camel. The seal dates back to the 18th century B.C. The small figures most probably depict a god and a goddess. This could point to the use of domesticated camels in that period; however it could also mean that the camel was known as a wild animal on which only gods were able to ride.
Here is a picture of the cylinder seal mentioned:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=11709&d=1322908976

I actually am familiar with the evidence to do with camels in that period following a study into the problems of feral camels in Australia.
I would direct those who are interested to 'The Archaeology of Animals' By Simon Davis, in particular the section on domestication and use of camels in the period and region we were discussing. It's only short (about 2 pages) and available here:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Z7XGFSp3drkC&pg=PA166#v=onepage&q&f=false

At no time did I expect to ever be able to use this knowledge on camels for anything, ever...

So to clarify.
It is my understanding that there is insufficient evidence to be certain, or not, as to whether camels were domesticated in the period and region mentioned. This in turn means that I must agree with RedeZra and say that there is evidence that they were used. There is some evidence that camels were domesticated for carting goods by traders as far back as the second millennium BCE, though the evidence to say that they were used by the people of the 'Southern Kingdom of Juda' or the 'Northern Kingdom of Israel' is, as far as I know, inconclusive. It is quite well known that camels were probably not used by the Egyptians until the 6th Century BCE.

I would like to thank RedeZra for taking the time to watch the documentary.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[araucaria]

Not been following this debate and sorry to butt in like this but when RedeZra says:
'high-tech metal alloys such as titanium magnesium and aluminum'

I would just like to point out that titanium, magnesium and aluminum are three elements appearing in the periodic table. They may or may not have required high tech mining, but they are definitely not alloys. :)

[RedeZra]

the Flood was worldwide and devestating so much so that only 8 people survived it just some thousand years ago


Certainly if the truth of this one subject were made evident many of the debates surrounding the Bible would no longer exist.



if the Bible says so then it is so... and you can take that to God


and furthermore most of us will perish not knowing what hit us just like in the days of Noah when the waters came and swept everything away

we have no idea how deeply we have been decived and we will probably never know before it's too late

when the fire comes and burns everything


it is an exercise in futility to try to disprove the Bible by using the Bible

the Book is bombastic with no space for subjective speculations regarding the universality of the Flood

everybody drowned just some 4000 years ago except 8 people and the animals in the Ark


So Yahweh said, "I will destroy man [adam] whom I have created from the face of the earth [adamah], both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. - Genesis 6:7-8


"And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth [erets], to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which [is] the breath of life; everything that [is] on the earth shall die.

"But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark--you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. - Genesis 6:17-18

So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground [adamah] : both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth [erets]. Only Noah and those who [were] with him in the ark remained [alive]. - Genesis 7:23


"who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." - 1 Peter 3:20



the scientific speculations about our origins and history is just crap

and they know it the Controllers know it's all BS but they are the Controllers with a mission to control us

and so they must keep piling up BS and decorate it with crap so we will buy it


the Bible is the only Book that is faithful and true because God is behind it

and if we buy the BS about God being pink plysh puppy love then we just let ourselves be fooled again


God will kill us

just like that and there is nothing we can do about it because God is the Creator while we are just creatures

get over it and accept it and be decent and serene and perhaps

just perhaps maybe i would not hold my breath God will spare us


God does not tolerate evil and neither do i

[kingmonkey]

7KnGNOiFll4

[kingmonkey]

Okay so i may possibly regret getting into this thread.

1) Because i do not claim to be an authority on the bible and its content - heaven forbid someone using the bible to disprove my argument.

2) Usually one cannot argue with a fundamentalist.

Just a few observations;

the scientific speculations about our origins and history is just crap

A speculation at the very least offers a theory about some kind of fact based on evidence. Or in other words a hypothesis, a potential theory that is subject to change according to available evidence.

is just crap - that is a conclusion based on what evidence?

if the Bible says so then it is so...

Okay sorry my mistake.

and they know it the Controllers know it's all BS but they are the Controllers with a mission to control us

and so they must keep piling up BS and decorate it with crap so we will buy it -

If i wanted to control people id write a book and tell the people that all other books were crap, and that you needed this book. Last time i heard the bible was still on the worlds best seller list.

the Bible is the only Book that is faithful and true because God is behind it

I heard many popular authors use ghost writers these days. So who really wrote it? Or did the numerous editors over the years tailor it to serve the agenda of the day. Much evidence points to this fact.

and if we buy the BS about God being pink plysh puppy love then we just let ourselves be fooled again

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4.8

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us. 1 John 14-18

Oh sorry im using the bible again to make a point which is an exercise in futility?

Or was it "if the Bible says so then it is so " I must be getting confused.

Just for the record im not attacking the bible or christianity or anything like that, its just some of your arguments are very weak and reliant on a fundamental literal interpretation of the bible, and you seem unable to even entertain the possibility of any other opinion or possibility that reality may exist.

With love

Bob

[vibrations]

Okay so i may possibly regret getting into this thread.

1) Because i do not claim to be an authority on the bible and its content - heaven forbid someone using the bible to disprove my argument.

2) Usually one cannot argue with a fundamentalist.

Just a few observations;

the scientific speculations about our origins and history is just crap

A speculation at the very least offers a theory about some kind of fact based on evidence. Or in other words a hypothesis, a potential theory that is subject to change according to available evidence.

is just crap - that is a conclusion based on what evidence?

if the Bible says so then it is so...

Okay sorry my mistake.

and they know it the Controllers know it's all BS but they are the Controllers with a mission to control us

and so they must keep piling up BS and decorate it with crap so we will buy it -

If i wanted to control people id write a book and tell the people that all other books were crap, and that you needed this book. Last time i heard the bible was still on the worlds best seller list.

the Bible is the only Book that is faithful and true because God is behind it

I heard many popular authors use ghost writers these days. So who really wrote it? Or did the numerous editors over the years tailor it to serve the agenda of the day. Much evidence points to this fact.

and if we buy the BS about God being pink plysh puppy love then we just let ourselves be fooled again

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4.8

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us. 1 John 14-18

Oh sorry im using the bible again to make a point which is an exercise in futility?

Or was it "if the Bible says so then it is so " I must be getting confused.

Just for the record im not attacking the bible or christianity or anything like that, its just some of your arguments are very weak and reliant on a fundamental literal interpretation of the bible, and you seem unable to even entertain the possibility of any other opinion or possibility that reality may exist.

With love

Bob

You can not argue with RederZra. There was an extension of Bible and there was written that he knows the true truth, so it's in Bible and it's true. First time I read bible was when I was 13 and I found for a half of bible of mistakes and inconsistencies. Imagine when I grow up. So, no point and no offense to him.

[Muzz]

I think this is what your looking for.

http://mattcbr.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/break-the-cycle.jpg

been doin a bit of diggin

[vibrations]

I think this is what your looking for.

http://mattcbr.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/break-the-cycle.jpg

been doin a bit of diggin

You can't imagine how much laugh I had

[RedeZra]

A speculation at the very least offers a theory about some kind of fact based on evidence. Or in other words a hypothesis, a potential theory that is subject to change according to available evidence.


it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the establishment has kicked God out of the equation

and replaced Him with scientifically impossible theories like evolution just to undermine the Bible in the minds of the masses

because of this discrepancy we cannot trust both the Bible and the establishment but must pick a side or none

if we want to trust the establishment then we can't trust the Bible because these two disagree with each other

so if we love truth then we have to figure out why the establishment is not in agreement with the Bible

and investigate to find out which one is true





Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4.8

i don't know why you cherry pick a verse from the Bible to limit God as you want Him to be when there are many verses in the Bible that speak of the wrath of God

perhaps you don't like that aspect ehe ? because when Jesus comes again then mercy time is over and wrath is the order

so please stop the cherry pick as you don't trick me

[Muzz]

i don't know why you cherry pick a verse from the Bible to limit God as you want Him to be when there are many verses in the Bible that speak of the wrath of God

While we are talking about "cherry picking" have you noticed all the other things down the local library that look very similar to the bible.


because when Jesus comes again then mercy time is over and wrath is the order

Thats heart warming

[RedeZra]

because when Jesus comes again then mercy time is over and wrath is the order

Thats heart warming


so seek Him before He comes because He will be furious and not emotional

[kingmonkey]

I cant argue with you and the wheel of power. You win. Well done for not falling for my tricks.

All my best.

[RedeZra]

I cant argue with you and the wheel of power. You win. Well done for not falling for my tricks.

All my best.

i am interested in truths and not winning discussions and i would hope you were in it for truths too


but i believe many have been hypnotised to hate the Bible and be blind to it

and i think evil spirits and spells have done extreme damage in this regard

[Beren]

There are things that are far away from us yet infront our very nose.
I am leaning towards the truth that Bible is the word of God but so many other things are.
You can not limit God so you can not limit the ways God chose to elaborate many things.

Seems like mankind always uses fresh filters for God and does not want to get rid of them.

Christ quoted the scripture but has also walked over water...

So he basically challenged both worlds religious and scientific one- such is his power and such is OUR power which Christ revealed in us.
Our choice is to use or abuse it.


P.S.
I liked all the recent posts by all since I admire anew the human spirit of creativity.
We`ll all laugh one day in heaven when we recall this days.;)

[Muzz]

so seek Him before He comes because He will be furious and not emotional

That fits the circular logic model quite well.

Seek jesus. why? because if you dont he'll be furious. why is he furious? cause you didnt seek him. Why seek jesus? because if you dont he'll be furious..................


It was a mistake to come back to this thread. All the best Redezra. May we all find what we are looking for.

[RedeZra]

so seek Him before He comes because He will be furious and not emotional

Seek jesus. why? because if you dont he'll be furious. why is he furious? cause you didnt seek him. Why seek jesus? because if you dont he'll be furious..................


what i'm saying is that the earth is about to be purified by fire

perhaps you've heard about the planet that is coming close to home together with a lot of asteroids


God can stop this as easy as He can switch off the sun or create a new man

but i don't think God will stop it because there is no reason to step in and preserve unrighteousness

and that is why the Bible speaks about a righteous remnant rescued by the Rapture

[modwiz]

Not been following this debate and sorry to butt in like this but when RedeZra says:
'high-tech metal alloys such as titanium magnesium and aluminum'

I would just like to point out that titanium, magnesium and aluminum are three elements appearing in the periodic table. They may or may not have required high tech mining, but they are definitely not alloys. :)

Are you trying to confuse us with simple science and alchemy? I don't know if those facts are in the bible. This thread has unique reference resources. Alice, where are you? We need to get out of here. :lever:

[RedeZra]

Not been following this debate and sorry to butt in like this but when RedeZra says:
'high-tech metal alloys such as titanium magnesium and aluminum'

I would just like to point out that titanium, magnesium and aluminum are three elements appearing in the periodic table. They may or may not have required high tech mining, but they are definitely not alloys. :)

ah i've made a mistake

i didn't construct the sentence right and so it says that titanium magnesium and aluminum are metal alloys

which i know too they are not


but you're right... i ****ed up and for that i am sorry

[Unified Serenity]

I actually use the bible in it's original languages to share what I believe reveals much truth of our past which disagrees with what fundamentalists teach. Red's response is to ignore those facts because they upset the traditions taught by men and not God.

[RedeZra]

I actually use the bible in it's original languages to share what I believe reveals much truth of our past which disagrees with what fundamentalists teach. Red's response is to ignore those facts because they upset the traditions taught by men and not God.

you actually use the Bible to try to disprove the Bible which is an impossible task as long as i am here

[Unified Serenity]

I actually use the bible in it's original languages to share what I believe reveals much truth of our past which disagrees with what fundamentalists teach. Red's response is to ignore those facts because they upset the traditions taught by men and not God.

you actually use the Bible to try to disprove the Bible which is an impossible task as long as i am here

That is a lie Red. I am not disproving the bible at all, but removing the traditions of men and false teachings of some that cause those who have eyes to see to turn away from the church because they know something is not right. We were warned that in the end days the ministers would be preaching lies and traditions of men, they would lead the sheep astray, and woe unto them for it. The church feeds pablum while the sheep starve for truth.

[Seikou-Kishi]

I actually use the bible in it's original languages to share what I believe reveals much truth of our past which disagrees with what fundamentalists teach. Red's response is to ignore those facts because they upset the traditions taught by men and not God.

you actually use the Bible to try to disprove the Bible which is an impossible task as long as i am here

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."
Proverbs 16:18

[kingmonkey]

I just came across this video, and this man articulates some of my feelings.

Just thought id share.

Now im leaving this room.
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LkaH3hEmV3M

[panopticon]

everybody drowned just some 4000 years ago except 8 people and the animals in the Ark


G'day RedeZra,

I don't follow your logic.
Once again you are relying on traditional stories (dogma) to prove your argument (belief) concerning the validity of an event depicted in a traditional story (dogma)

Again, I am not saying that an isolated flooding event didn't happen, there is some evidence to support that areas in the Mediterranean and Middle East were flooded following an outburst flooding event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood), just the catastrophic level of the event you mention in 2000 BCE is not historically evident.

I would like to know what are your sources?

Also 8 individuals is an insufficient number to provide genetic diversity (minimum is 500 from memory) or are you saying modern humanity is the product of inbreeding?

Just trying to understand your logic.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

you actually use the Bible to try to disprove the Bible which is an impossible task as long as i am here

That is a lie Red. I am not disproving the bible at all, but removing the traditions of men and false teachings of some that cause those who have eyes to see to turn away from the church because they know something is not right.

there is no room in the Bible to interpret the Flood as anything but worldwide and there is no place in the Bible to diss Paul

that is why i say you use the Bible to disprove the Bible

also there is no space in the Book to say that Eve was intimate with Satan or that the Kenites were under the Cain curse and that this tribe tare was the reason for the Crucifiction of Christ

so i'm not lying here Serenity but saying that you have a highly subjective interpretation of the Bible which is not justified by the Book itself


we can both agree that Christianity is in shambles but this Apostasy is no surprise as it was foretold in the Bible

and as you know Christianity and all mankind for that matter have many powerful enemies

we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities [archons], against powers [exousias], against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual [hosts] of wickedness in the heavenly [places]. - Ephesians 6:12

[RedeZra]

you actually use the Bible to try to disprove the Bible which is an impossible task as long as i am here

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."
Proverbs 16:18

it never ceases to amaze me when Bible unbelievers cherry pick a Bible verse to make a point or rather a stab

perhaps this was a verse used to justify the killing of the Prophets and the Crucifiction of Christ

for how dare someone point out our faults

[Unified Serenity]

You know Red, the very arguments that you use against me could be said of you. I believe I have given ample evidence to back up what I say the bible is teaching, and you refuse to accept it because it does not go by mainstream christian teachings, and yet we know we are in the end days and the churches are not spoken of well in Revelation except for two. There are numerous passages about the apostacy of the church in the end days. Just what do you think that means if most of the churches teach these same false teachings and yet there are a few crying in the wilderness to make straight the paths, and to follow God?

Go back to the original texts. What I have said is clearly spelled out. Do you deny that the fallen angels took women and had these half breed giants with them? Satan is nothing but another fallen angel, albeit the chief one, but one none the less. The bible says he seduced Eve, she bore twins and one twin does the work of his father the devil. Why is the bible literal for you until it gets to that issue?

[RedeZra]

everybody drowned just some 4000 years ago except 8 people and the animals in the Ark


G'day RedeZra,

I don't follow your logic.
Once again you are relying on traditional stories (dogma) to prove your argument (belief) concerning the validity of an event depicted in a traditional story (dogma)


I would like to know what are your sources?

Also 8 individuals is an insufficient number to provide genetic diversity (minimum is 500 from memory) or are you saying modern humanity is the product of inbreeding?



hi Panopticon


if i don't trust the establishment then i don't trust their science

see that is my logic

and so i look to sources that challenge the establishment


i search archaeological facts and artifacts which have not been totally censored or suppressed altogether

by the establishment for their controllers


one would think it is impossible to suppress something as big as a recent worldwide flood

but then one is not aware of the spirit deceiving high intelligence behind the controllers


we are all family and we can all trace our line back to Noah and his wife just some 4000 years ago


before the Flood there was a high tech civilisation on the earth in which The Great Pyramid of Giza is a still standing stone testimony of

we cannot compare with our antediluvian ancestors who was much bigger smarter and long-living than ourselves


and when the Watchers who was a group or order of spirits set to watch over mankind

begot children with women

then the earth became inhabitated with Giant demigods who inherited the spirit of disobediance to God

and began to genetically modify and corrupt not only animals but humans too



sounds like fiction i know but the Bible hints at this so it must be true

[RedeZra]

Do you deny that the fallen angels took women and had these half breed giants with them?

no i do not deny this

and if you read what i write than you know too that i do not deny this




Satan is nothing but another fallen angel, albeit the chief one, but one none the less. The bible says he seduced Eve, she bore twins and one twin does the work of his father the devil.

the Bible does not say that Eve begot a child or children with Satan


the Bible says that the spirit of Satan in a serpent

seduced Eve to eat of the fruit of the spiritual knowledge of good and evil


and so our first parents chose to disobey a crystal clear command from God and instead obey Satan

which gave Satan a spiritual legal right to meddle in the affairs of mankind

[Unified Serenity]

the Bible says that the spirit of Satan in a serpent



Again, you pick and choose what to believe. You see the word Nachash they translated to Serpent. It is actually the word meaning highly polished bronze as in a shining one! So Eve talked with a shining one. We know Satan is said to be an angel of light, shining one, and is also called the morning star. Red, we will not get anywhere here. You want to read an English bible where words where purposefully mistranslated and where scribes and pharisees purposefully chose to confuse things. I choose to go back to the original languages, look for the breadcrumbs and connect the dots. I find most who point out lies and perceived errors in the bible simply do not know what it really says.

I enjoy these deeper studies. Most do not like exegesis as it takes a lot of effort and interest to dig it out. The simple truth is there, but there are deeper truths that explain how things happened. There are deeper truths put in for the virgin bride to understand and protect the pearls of wisdom thus they won't be trodden down by swine.

[RedeZra]

the Bible says that the spirit of Satan in a serpent



You see the word Nachash they translated to Serpent. It is actually the word meaning highly polished bronze as in a shining one! So Eve talked with a shining one. We know Satan is said to be an angel of light, shining one, and is also called the morning star.


who or what is this nachash which seduced Eve to eat of the fruit in Genesis 3 ?

"it is more cunning than any beast of the field which God had made" - Genesis 3


and how did God reward this nachash for tricking Eve to eat of the fruit ?

"You [are] cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life." - Genesis 3:14


so you see this nachash is an animal


and i guess you know that Satan or the Adversary is a spirit

who can possess flesh ?

[Unified Serenity]

the Bible says that the spirit of Satan in a serpent



You see the word Nachash they translated to Serpent. It is actually the word meaning highly polished bronze as in a shining one! So Eve talked with a shining one. We know Satan is said to be an angel of light, shining one, and is also called the morning star.


who or what is this nachash which seduced Eve to eat of the fruit in Genesis 3 ?

"it is more cunning than any beast of the field which God had made" - Genesis 3


and how did God reward this nachash for tricking Eve to eat of the fruit ?

"You [are] cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life." - Genesis 3:14


so you see this nachash is an animal


and i guess you know that Satan or the Adversary is a spirit

who can possess flesh ?

Your biblical illiteracy astounds me. You are happy in your traditions of man, I will not dissuade you from it. I just hope anyone else reading this will be curious enough to go study as I have. PM me if you want the tools, and some excellent sites and resources to help you out.

Blessings in truth,

Serenity

[RedeZra]

Your biblical illiteracy astounds me. You are happy in your traditions of man, I will not dissuade you from it.

you keep stabbing at me

hinting that i am an illiteral swine

while you are a true virgin bride of Christ


and you keep saying that you look to the original Hebrew text but so do i ?!


you don't even admit that you subscribe to a highly subjective interpretation of the Bible

which is not backed by the Bible

but you don't care about that


you just got it right regardless

[Unified Serenity]

Your biblical illiteracy astounds me. You are happy in your traditions of man, I will not dissuade you from it.

you keep stabbing at me

hinting that i am an illiteral swine

while you are a true virgin bride of Christ


and you keep saying that you look to the original Hebrew text but so do i ?!


you don't even admit that you subscribe to a highly subjective interpretation of the Bible

which is not backed by the Bible

but you don't care about that


you just got it right regardless

I never thought of you as swine. I do think you parrot the Pauline Church and traditions of men. My comment regarding the swine has nothing to do with you for I would have never tried to expound on these things with you if I thought you were swine. I'd just kick the dust from my feet and move on.

[Beren]

Question for both RedeZra and Unified Serenity;

Did you ever thought about Bible as God`s words as it is?
Did you ever fathom that beside Bible there are more holy scriptures in whole world?
And finally do you both understand that WE humans apply filters of understanding of the divine when reading Bible and other works?

So you may both be right and both be wrong but Christ is one and the same always.
Be one in Christ not divided in reasoning which filter filters the best...

[Unified Serenity]

Question for both RedeZra and Unified Serenity;

Did you ever thought about Bible as God`s words as it is?
Did you ever fathom that beside Bible there are more holy scriptures in whole world?
And finally do you both understand that WE humans apply filters of understanding of the divine when reading Bible and other works?

So you may both be right and both be wrong but Christ is one and the same always.
Be one in Christ not divided in reasoning which filter filters the best...

I am well aware of other books, and historical information from other spiritual paths and archeology. My issue is that God's word has been translated from it's original languages, scribes have changed names and many have put for traditions based on poor translations. We have great tools to learn these truths, and God is quite angry at those who say they are called to teach and preach who give for man's wisdom and do not teach from the source. Most people who point out problems in the bible don't really know what the bible says, only what some preacher has said based on illiteracy or what's really there or lack of truly studying the word as a scholar line upon line and precept upon precept.

I gain a lot from looking at other ancient texts and prophecies. We are one whether we act like it or not. We all come from the Father. Yet, we are also called to be a separate people who live forth His truths in love with one another.

[Beren]

Question for both RedeZra and Unified Serenity;

Did you ever thought about Bible as God`s words as it is?
Did you ever fathom that beside Bible there are more holy scriptures in whole world?
And finally do you both understand that WE humans apply filters of understanding of the divine when reading Bible and other works?

So you may both be right and both be wrong but Christ is one and the same always.
Be one in Christ not divided in reasoning which filter filters the best...

I am well aware of other books, and historical information from other spiritual paths and archeology. My issue is that God's word has been translated from it's original languages, scribes have changed names and many have put for traditions based on poor translations. We have great tools to learn these truths, and God is quite angry at those who say they are called to teach and preach who give for man's wisdom and do not teach from the source. Most people who point out problems in the bible don't really know what the bible says, only what some preacher has said based on illiteracy or what's really there or lack of truly studying the word as a scholar line upon line and precept upon precept.

I gain a lot from looking at other ancient texts and prophecies. We are one whether we act like it or not. We all come from the Father. Yet, we are also called to be a separate people who live forth His truths in love with one another.

I agree with you except in part that Father is angry.
Whenever you read in Bible that God is angry and mad and wants revenge just breathe down and realize who wrote that- God or a man?
That man who wrote that God is any of the above was seeing some things happening through his own lower understanding.

He saw a cataclysm and described it as God`s wrath when in fact any cataclysm upon Earth was and is caused by MAN.
It`s a law of cause and effect.

Christ explained that and confirmed that too.
He was teaching us to remember that even in our thoughts we are powerful and that we create.

Good or bad effect - we create it.

So whatever man wants to impose upon God simply doesn`t work. For God is God and man is man.
Does God needs sacrifices or rituals or rules ???
No.

Man needs that in his low conscience and energy of fear.

And God allows that because of free will so we can learn that WE cause things to happen for we were given that gift and such power.

All ancient texts upon the face of the Earth are carrying same messages slightly changed though human filter.

Why do you think people flocked to Christ?
Because they sensed and saw him as he truly is - Son of God .

Christ didn`t need to elaborate scriptures - he showed the power and also true words BUT religions and pharisees thrown in their own stuff...

One common denominator for religions is that they HAVE to use FORCE to bind people together to them- it`s just plain seen that they are not aligned with God at all. They say but they aren`t.

Reasoning about who is right and who is wrong about religious texts is futile for again it`s a quarrel about who `s filter filters the best?
When you are in Christ you don`t need filter.

I`m not saying you are wrong and that Red is wrong I`m saying that you are right and he is too!
It`s just that I would not like to see you two quarreling about words and texts when you have Christ whom you can attune to.

Leave pharisees tricks to themselves and their own.

[RedeZra]

Question for both RedeZra and Unified Serenity;

Did you ever thought about Bible as God`s words as it is?
Did you ever fathom that beside Bible there are more holy scriptures in whole world?
And finally do you both understand that WE humans apply filters of understanding of the divine when reading Bible and other works?

So you may both be right and both be wrong but Christ is one and the same always.
Be one in Christ not divided in reasoning which filter filters the best...

this thread is about the Bible

which i believe is an inspired work

and therefore important


not only historically but also prophetically


so i welcome any and all views about the contents of this Book

and i have no problems with debates or disagreements


this is a thread about the Bible so let the Book speak


and when interpretations differ then let us debate

with honest intent and integrity


because the Bible is too important to ignore

in a world lost not for words but wisdom


for if the Bible is true then this is need to know for our souls

and you know that as well


nobody wants to hear about Heaven and Hell

and nobody likes the God of the Bible


but it's the only God we got

[Beren]

Question for both RedeZra and Unified Serenity;

Did you ever thought about Bible as God`s words as it is?
Did you ever fathom that beside Bible there are more holy scriptures in whole world?
And finally do you both understand that WE humans apply filters of understanding of the divine when reading Bible and other works?

So you may both be right and both be wrong but Christ is one and the same always.
Be one in Christ not divided in reasoning which filter filters the best...

this thread is about the Bible

which i believe is an inspired work

and therefore important


not only historically but also prophetically


so i welcome any and all views about the contents of this Book

and i have no problems with debates or disagreements


this is a thread about the Bible so let the Book speak


and when interpretations differ then let us debate

with honest intent and integrity


because the Bible is too important to ignore

in a world lost not for words but wisdom


for if the Bible is true then this is need to know for our souls

and you know that as well


nobody wants to hear about Heaven and Hell

and nobody likes the God of the Bible


but it's the only God we got

I am studying the Bible from age 16 and know of its immense worth and am sad for so many abuse its written words without a dust of knowledge.
Hardly many people ever read it at all, or they read bits and pieces and dare to drag it through mire.

Sadly also there ones who read it but allow religions to interpretate for them without second thought.
And there ones who are adamantly against it for they think it`s a lie .

I used to have similar thread on AV1 and it was a bombshell as this one is.

I say again that many things were not understood by people who wrote it and what became the Bible.
But they wrote according to what they could grasp.

Imagine poor Ezekiel seeing God`s tech or Isaiah too or any others...and more surprise when they saw Christ doing all wonderful stuff without tech at all for he IS the power...

God is the power and Christ is too...

But it`s fascinating to see that we are ready to fight about written word.
It`s more constructive to reason without accusations which were present here on the thread.

Honestly Red you weren`t offensive as some posters were against you or anyone who agrees about what you write but thread changed into a better focused discussion and that is making me feel happy for I see human spirit of tolerance and Love actually.

That said, people here - I bless you on your search for truth but when you find it it will set you free!

:)

[RedeZra]

Honestly Red you weren`t offensive as some posters were against you or anyone who agrees about what you write but thread changed into a better focused discussion and that is making me feel happy for I see human spirit of tolerance and Love actually.

That said, people here - I bless you on your search for truth but when you find it it will set you free!

:)

when God is found either through Christ or some other valid Name of God

then we can close the Books


because God will impress visions upon our minds and speak wisdoms in our hearts

and i mean that in a literal sense


the Bible is a pointer to God and a signpost

and so it is important for those on the road


for those that have come home

the signpost is not important at all

[Seikou-Kishi]

you actually use the Bible to try to disprove the Bible which is an impossible task as long as i am here

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."
Proverbs 16:18

it never ceases to amaze me when Bible unbelievers cherry pick a Bible verse to make a point or rather a stab

perhaps this was a verse used to justify the killing of the Prophets and the Crucifiction of Christ

for how dare someone point out our faults

Lol when you quote the bible to bash others about the head, that's just the Holy Spirit flowing, when anybody else does it, it's wrong. The hypocrisy of the religious right is thriving, I see.
Don't act like just because I said it, it has invalidated it; it is your fantasy story, not mine; if you live your life by it, it is true whoever says it.

Tu quoque, RedeZra, tu quoque; "how dare someone point out our faults". That is exactly why you reacted to it the way you did. Heaven forbid anybody point out your faults while you go around calling down brimstone on us 'unbelievers' — or, in US's case, somebody who fails to conform to your narrow interpretation of the Bible.


You know Red, the very arguments that you use against me could be said of you.

Hear, hear! Here he looks on the mote in your eye blissfully unaware of the beam in his.


the Bible is a pointer to God and a signpost
and so it is important for those on the road
for those that have come home
the signpost is not important at all

You accuse US of liberal interpretations of the bible and then come out with this? Oh, the Bible no longer applies to you... this is mind-boggling! Really!

[RedeZra]

Lol when you quote the bible to bash others about the head, that's just the Holy Spirit flowing, when anybody else does it, it's wrong.

i don't bash people with cherry picked Bible verses



Heaven forbid anybody point out your faults while you go around calling down brimstone on us 'unbelievers' — or, in US's case, somebody who fails to conform to your narrow interpretation of the Bible.

i am not calling down brimstone but brimstone is mentioned in the Bible

and my interpretation is not narrow at all but pretty mainstream




You accuse US of liberal interpretations of the bible and then come out with this? Oh, the Bible no longer applies to you... this is mind-boggling! Really!

yes Serenity has a highly subjective interpretation on several passages in the Bible and that is a fact

and of course if you are in a relationship with God then you don't need Books to tell you about it

you live it and you teach it

[Unified Serenity]

How can you live according the God's ways when the you are taught men's ways in church? Sure the heart is willing, but the mind is educated in man's system, and you said it, not I but you are mainstream and mainstream is exactly where the sleeping virgins are.

Enjoy your night.

[RedeZra]

How can you live according the God's ways when the you are taught men's ways in church? Sure the heart is willing, but the mind is educated in man's system, and you said it, not I but you are mainstream and mainstream is exactly where the sleeping virgins are.

Enjoy your night.

i don't attend church and i trust no man

i am selfmade with a lot of guiding and guarding from God

He has saved my life at least twice now that i know of

and yes i do know Him


nite nite

[panopticon]

Good or bad effect - we create it.
...
Man needs that in his low conscience and energy of fear.

And God allows that because of free will so we can learn that WE cause things to happen for we were given that gift and such power.

All ancient texts upon the face of the Earth are carrying the same messages slightly changed though human filter.
...
One common denominator for religions is that they HAVE to use FORCE to bind people together to them- it`s just plain seen that they are not aligned with God at all. They say but they aren`t.

Reasoning about who is right and who is wrong about religious texts is futile for again it`s a quarrel about whose filter filters the best?


Well said Beren!
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Arrowwind]

According to someone I trust who was a priest, no, they are not the authors.
How could they have written them if they were not written until around 100 years after jesus was meant to have left?
And your lack of care is at odds with what you claim you are and stand for.

i dont see how you can put your trust in modern men living 2000 years after the events


there is no date on the scrolls which make up the Bible so it is just a modern guess as to when they were written down

but remember the establishment is against the Christ and the Bible


i care about you but i dont care what you think of me

Well, I don't know how they date the writings, as I never cared enough to find out.
But, knowing my friend and how thorough he is, he checks everything out.
He told me that the church knows far more than they are allowed to say.
And no, the establishment isn't against your bible or your jesus, they ARE the establishment, or haven't you noticed?


I once met two Episcopalian monks who had been Catholic Priests at the Vatican. They were friends then and were still when I met them. One of them worked in the Vatican vaults or basement as he called it when they were there.. This area was loaded with all kinds of stuff that the Catholic Church had relieved the possession of from the previous owners. One of them was assigned to organizing and cleaning, a perpetual process there in these vaults. He came upon a book, a book called the Book of Mary, an ancient manuscript.. I should have asked him what language it was in but I was seriously young at the time and my intellect not so well developed for such matters. He said the book should have been in the bible but of course it is not. It was Mary's account of her life with Jesus and his works.. I don't know if it was the Mother Mary or Mary Magdelene. He said that when he found the book he got very excited and tried to tell everyone at the Vatican about it... Oh.. big mistake. They did not want to hear it and in fact told him to shut up. He refused to shut up. He and his friend ended up running for their lives ... or so they thought. They fled the Vatican and took refuge within the Episcopalian Church and went on to become monks. They said that they feared for their life.

I do not see how anyone can trust the bible to report and accurate and true story when it was corrupted by the Catholic Church who has a reputation for lying, covetousness, envoy, power mongering, murdering, manipulating, promoting war, thievery, enslavement, rape and other misdeeds though out history, as well as protecting those who commit such misdeeds. The bible in my estimation was designed to suppress the intellect and the spirit, to castigate the power of women and to make someone outside of oneself superior, and that being a man.. and when it comes to the church a man such as a priest and in other denominations a Minister who passes judgments according to the "word of god" determined by the interpretations of his own limited fearful and hateful mind.

I went to a funeral yesterday... for a man that I sat with when he died. I held his hand as he took his last breath. The minister at the funeral took 30 minutes to tell me that I was going to hell because I didn't accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior. Not directed personally at me, only to all those who had not been reborn... but of course that was me and probably some others in the room. And then he went on to say how much he loved me and how much God and Jesus loved me.. At home I realized how pathetic he was, just how terribly pathetic and I felt sorry for him. Most of the world and all the good people in it in his minds eye are already burning in hell which he declared was a very real and true place of fire. He's not even dead yet and he is surrounded by dwellers in hell.

[RedeZra]

He came upon a book, a book called the Book of Mary, an ancient manuscript.. I should have asked him what language it was in but I was seriously young at the time and my intellect not so well developed for such matters. He said the book should have been in the bible but of course it is not. It was Mary's account of her life with Jesus and his works.. I don't know if it was the Mother Mary or Mary Magdelene.

i acknowledge the existence of a spiritual Adversary or Satan and so i see a spiritual struggle individually within ourselves and collectively amongst ourselves

between powers of good and forces of evil

which are not easily perceived because of the enticing lies from the forces of evil


it doesn't matter how sweet the lie is... a lie is a lie and when the Bible says that the father of lies is the god of this age

then we need to be calm and collected and try to pierce through the lies or else we will be tricked

so if we don't have an anchor then we will just float with the flow which is not a good idea if the world is ruled by a spiritual trickster


and here is where i believe the Bible comes to the rescue as an anchor and a testimony of truths


actually i know it but that doesn't help you that i know it

you must figure it out yourselves by the Grace of God

[panopticon]

hi Panopticon
if i don't trust the establishment then i don't trust their science
see that is my logic
and so i look to sources that challenge the establishment
i search archaeological facts and artifacts which have not been totally censored or suppressed altogether
by the establishment for their controllers
one would think it is impossible to suppress something as big as a recent worldwide flood
but then one is not aware of the spirit deceiving high intelligence behind the controllers
we are all family and we can all trace our line back to Noah and his wife just some 4000 years ago

before the Flood there was a high tech civilisation on the earth in which The Great Pyramid of Giza is a still standing stone testimony of
we cannot compare with our antediluvian ancestors who was much bigger smarter and long-living than ourselves
and when the Watchers who was a group or order of spirits set to watch over mankind
begot children with women
then the earth became inhabitated with Giant demigods who inherited the spirit of disobediance to God
and began to genetically modify and corrupt not only animals but humans too
sounds like fiction i know but the Bible hints at this so it must be true
G'day RedeZra,

Thank you for the response.

So from this:


our antediluvian ancestors who was much bigger smarter and long-living than ourselves.
I take it to mean that you view modern humans as the result of inbreeding, hence our diminished capacity.

As for:

i search archaeological facts and artifacts which have not been totally censored or suppressed altogether by the establishment for their controllers.
Can you direct me to your information sources or is it that you cherry pick those bits that suit your position and decry the rest (ie that which you don't agree with) as the work of "the establishment for their controllers".

To clarify my position regards what is colloquially referred to as "the deluge" occurring in 2000 BCE.

There is an uninterrupted record of "Chinese" regional culture, and archaeological evidence to support it, during the period in question. There is also an uninterrupted list of Mesopotamian city-state Kings from 2500 BCE to 600 BCE when Babylon was conquered by the Achaemenid Empire (the same Persian Empire that the movie '300' was made about) in 539 BCE. The Middle Kingdom of Egypt lasted from ~2100 BCE to ~1600 BCE.

There is no record in the Chinese texts from this period of a deluge story. In fact, as far as I am aware, other than the Hihking story (which was made up by a US preacher in the 1930's) and an interpreted verbal tradition from the Miao tribes (that has equally tainted origins) there are only generalised mythological stories (usually involving a wooden drum, or small craft, common to many Asiatic traditional stories) of localised flood events. However, mention is made that during the early part of the Xia Dynasty (which led 'Shun' to transfer the throne to 'Yu the Great' who was the first Xia Dynasty Emperor) increased tributary inflow to the Yellow River (Huang He) caused a major flooding event that lasted a number of decades. These flooding events are repeated throughout Chinese history and are due to the collapse of ice dams in Mongolia (ie minor out-bursting events) causing a sudden inflow of water to the system and resultant long term extensive flooding. There is evidence that the Yellow River has changed its course multiple times due to this recurrent phenomena since at least the Neolithic period.

It is not uncommon for flood stories to occur as they are traumatic events that ancient people would have mythologised and created a tradition about.

Why are they common?
The change to an agrarian lifestyle resulted in people settling in regions that had fertile soil. This is usually in areas with deep alluvial soils formed on flood planes. Obviously when the catchment area receives high amounts of rainfall, the upstream region gets high run-off levels resulting in flooding on the low lying flood plane regions.

This is well known to Permaculturist who design around such problems as part of the 'designing for catastrophe' mantra of Permaculture land stewardship.

I look forward to your reply.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

our antediluvian ancestors who was much bigger smarter and long-living than ourselves.
I take it to mean that you view modern humans as the result of inbreeding, hence our diminished capacity.


yes i believe in a first man and woman and i also believe that fresh from creation our first parents and subsequent early generations were genetically pure resulting in no detrimental effects regarding inbreeding

i also believe the atmosphere was different before the Flood like no rain but just a mist which moistened the earth

the earth might have been smaller too but i have not looked into that yet but i believe the earth has tilted and so the intersection of the equator has changed

i believe in devolution or the inherent corruption of physicality and therefore the need for God to create again and again


and finally i believe in a worldwide Flood about 4400 years ago which swept everything away except those in the Ark



i have shown the Ark on Ararat

there are no trees older than some 4000 years and those petrified remains that are older have no tree rings because the climate was constant before the Flood

fossils are the result of sudden burial under mud

found bones of giants are suppressed and stacked away from public eyes

there are ancient arts showing humans and dinosaurs together

etc etc together with all the legends and cultural traditions about flood and giants


the establishment is not telling us the truths but i guess you know that

[Arrowwind]

actually i know it but that doesn't help you that i know it

you must figure it out yourselves by the Grace of God

Man, your pretty god dam arrogant.

[Davidallany]

I´ve read the Bible many times. It´s a great Sci-Fi book, a true best-seller. The thing supposedly happened more than 2000 years ago. There´s no way to prove it really happened.

If our civilization is completely extinguished and, some day in the far future, someone finds a Harry Potter book, he could very well claim that it was all real and convince people to follow this book and worship Harry Potter as the son of god.
hermione Granger would be Hermione Magdalina, severus snape would be apostle Severus the holy, Albus Dumbledore
is God and Harry is (Jesus) "said David Wilcock style".
http://marcinmadison.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/megaphone.jpg

[modwiz]

actually i know it but that doesn't help you that i know it

you must figure it out yourselves by the Grace of God

Man, your pretty god dam arrogant.

I see you're getting to know him. :nod:

¤=[Post Update]=¤



I´ve read the Bible many times. It´s a great Sci-Fi book, a true best-seller. The thing supposedly happened more than 2000 years ago. There´s no way to prove it really happened.

If our civilization is completely extinguished and, some day in the far future, someone finds a Harry Potter book, he could very well claim that it was all real and convince people to follow this book and worship Harry Potter as the son of god.
hermione Granger would be Hermione Magdalina, severus snape would be apostle Severus the holy, Albus Dumbledore
is God and Harry is (Jesus) "said David Wilcock style".
http://marcinmadison.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/megaphone.jpg

C'mon David. Snape killed Dumbledore, so he is Caiaphus, or Pilate with the smell of Judas on him.

[Davidallany]

Hi modwiz, what you say is a heresy, now let's start a holy war and crusade.

[modwiz]

Hi modwiz, what you say is a heresy, now let's start a holy war and crusade.

Oh, we're going to play the azzhole game? Not again. :doh:

[Davidallany]

Now that we have split on the truth may the best azzhole with a nudge from God wins.

[modwiz]

Now that we have split on the truth may the best azzhole with a nudge from God wins.

May the Farce be with us.

[Davidallany]

To proof the glory of holy, holy serevus snape this is an excerpt from the Holy book

Fudge: "Ah well, Snape ... Harry Potter, you know ... we've all got a bit of a blind spot where he's concerned."
Snape: "And yet -- is it good for him to be given so much special treatment? Personally, I try and treat him like any other student."

The Holy Book. PA-21

[Arrowwind]

May the Farce be with us.

Trying to keep this straight in my mind... Do you mean Christianity at large or just RedeZra?
Never mind... its not worth it. This is a lousy thread... Im outa here... :bolt:

[panopticon]

yes i believe in a first man and woman and i also believe that fresh from creation our first parents and subsequent early generations were genetically pure resulting in no detrimental effects regarding inbreeding
i also believe the atmosphere was different before the Flood like no rain but just a mist which moistened the earth
the earth might have been smaller too but i have not looked into that yet but i believe the earth has tilted and so the intersection of the equator has changed
i believe in devolution or the inherent corruption of physicality and therefore the need for God to create again and again
and finally i believe in a worldwide Flood about 4400 years ago which swept everything away except those in the Ark

i have shown the Ark on Ararat

there are no trees older than some 4000 years and those petrified remains that are older have no tree rings because the climate was constant before the Flood
fossils are the result of sudden burial under mud
found bones of giants are suppressed and stacked away from public eyes
there are ancient arts showing humans and dinosaurs together
etc etc together with all the legends and cultural traditions about flood and giants
the establishment is not telling us the truths but i guess you know that

G'day RedeZra,

Thanks for the response.

I apologise for my previous post as you had stated the period as being 4000 years BP and now more clearly stated it as 4400 BP.

Would you like me to provide similar information for that period?

As for there being no trees older than 4000 years you are overlooking the Huon Pine stands just down the road from me some of which date back 10,000 years and the Swedish spruces whose root systems have been dated at about the same. There's also the 4,842 years old 'Pinus longaeva' nicknamed 'Methuselah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah_(tree))' amongst many others that predate you flood timing.

Your point regards the atmosphere being mostly moisture in a hypothetical pre-flood period sounds similar to a view, held I think from memory by the 'Jehovah's Witnesses', that the pre-flood atmosphere was super saturated and that it condensed suddenly resulting in "the deluge".
Trouble with it was that it didn't take into account that the atmosphereic pressure would be too great for human life to exist (not even giants or uberhumans can survive something near 900 times present atmospheric pressure conditions) and so they've abandoned that (last I heard anyways).

I apologise as I missed your expose on Ararat as I was on walk about...

Below is the original 1948 Associated Press article of what later became known as the 'Durupinar' site that you were referring too. I have lots of evidence that the site you mention is a natural formation (some of it even from creationist sources!).

Very few now believe that this is the site of "Noah's Ark" other than Seventh Day Adventists (Ron Wyatt, by the way, was a Seventh Day Adventist).
Here is a report (http://noahsarksearch.com/AvciMurat/TelcekerEarthFlow.pdf) from Turkish Geologist Murat Avci that states clearly and concisely that it is a natural formation. The below article is important as the actions on the stone by the ice explains the geological formation. By the way, this isn't the only formation of this shape in that region. It is however the only one that is about the right size and can be made to fit into a literal interpretation.

The missing sections in the 1948 Associated Press article are obvious anti-spam stuff as the name of the Kurdish farmer (R/e/s/h/i/t/) causes troubles...

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=11742&d=1323080689

Turk Reports 'Ship' Atop Mt. Ararat

By Edwin B. Greenwald

ISTANBUL, Nov. 13 (AP)-The petrified remains of an object which peasants insist resembles a ship has been found high up Mt. Ararat, biblical landing place of Noah’s Ark. Apparently hidden for centuries, it came to light last summer when unusually warm weather melted away an ancient mantle of snow and ice. While various persons from time to time, have reported seeing objects resembling a "house" or a "ship" on the mountain, Turks who have seen this new find purport it to be the only object which actually could be taken as the remains of a ship. Shukru Asena, 69-year-old farmer who owns large acreage in that far off eastern frontier district, told about the discovery in an unheralded visit to the Associated Press bureau here [Istanbul]. This is his story: Early in September a Kurdish farmer named Re**** was about two-thirds of the way up the 16,969-foot peak when he came upon an object he had never seen before, although he had been up the mountain many times. He moved around it and then climbed higher to examine it from above. There, Re**** said it was the prow of a ship protruding into a canyon down which tons of melting ice and snow had been gushing for more than two months. The prow was almost entirely revealed, but the rest of the object still was covered. The contour of the earth, Re**** said, indicated the invisible part of the object was shaped like a ship. The prow, he added, was about the size of a house. Re**** climbed down to it and with his dagger tried to beak off a piece of the bow. It was so hard it would not break. It was blackened with age. Re**** insisted it was not a simple rock formation. "I know a ship when I see one," he said. "This is a ship." He spread the word among little villages at the base of the mountain and peasants began climbing up its northern slope to see the weird thing he had found. Each who came back said it was a ship. An expedition from America last summer was reported coming to see if it could find remains of the ark preserved in the ice atop Mt. Ararat, but no one in that eastern area has reported any foreign visitors. (In Annapolis, Md, Frederick Avery, model ship maker for the naval academy museum who was to have been a member of the American expedition, said the trip had been "called off for the time being." Avery said that the "international situation and fighting in that area" had complicated plans and that the expedition could not get clearance and get ready in time. Mt. Ararat is frozen 10 months of the year. August and September are the only two months of thaw.)

TELLS OF FINDING ARK-Shukru Asena, bushy-mustached farmer from eastern Turkey, said that startled peasants had found the petrified remains of a ship high up Mt. Ararat, Biblical landing place of Noah’s Ark. It was brought to light by extraordinarily heavy thaws that washed away the "ship's" ancient mask of ice and snow. Here Shukru Asena points out the location of Ararat on a map.
Sourced From: http://noahsarksearch.com/
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[greybeard]

I appreciate what is being shared here.
Only one thing.
I can not believe in a retaliatory God.
Unconditional love is exactly that.

I believe the flood happened and people were given warning but paid no heed.
I suspect that the flood was part of a natural cycle-- nothing to do with God's wrath.
I believe that our own self dictates through its action what befalls us at least in the illusion that we separate from God.
Would God punish Himself??
I think not.

Jesus said "The Father and I are One"
That applies to all life. Could it be otherwise?

Chris

Ps If there were only a few survived the flood how come we have a yellow race, a redskin race, a black race, a white race?

Chris

[buckminster fuller]

The deluvian flood coud have been an event that didn't extend to the east. It might have been more "local".

Looking for truths in that matter might not be worth it, since the actual message is theological, and considering the mess that exists in between so called "experts" in archeology, will remain out of reach for a while...

[Andreash94]

For me bible is a book that tell you how to think about divine(actualy ppl tel you how to think )id say lets stop reading and start leaving ...:horn:

[RedeZra]

actually i know it but that doesn't help you that i know it

you must figure it out yourselves by the Grace of God

Man, your pretty god dam arrogant.

i know the Bible is true

if that makes me arrogant so be it

but it makes you an ignoramus

[Seikou-Kishi]

actually i know it but that doesn't help you that i know it

you must figure it out yourselves by the Grace of God

Man, your pretty god dam arrogant.

i know the Bible is true

if that makes me arrogant so be it

but it makes you an ignoramus

He's an ignoramus now? You must enjoy being so insulting.

Since LS's Ofradiction was my fault, I feel compelled to add this song in hope that you will remember to be nicer :P


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TnLFJbj7fk
Source (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TnLFJbj7fk)

[RedeZra]

G'day RedeZra,

Thanks for the response.

I apologise for my previous post as you had stated the period as being 4000 years BP and now more clearly stated it as 4400 BP.

Would you like me to provide similar information for that period?

As for there being no trees older than 4000 years you are overlooking the Huon Pine stands just down the road from me some of which date back 10,000 years and the Swedish spruces whose root systems have been dated at about the same. There's also the 4,842 years old 'Pinus longaeva' nicknamed 'Methuselah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah_(tree))' amongst many others that predate you flood timing.




of course the controllers concoct info to try to disproove facts and artifacts which would confirm the Bible

so it is up to us to look into it

and not fall for the first and best info about a particular case because that would probably be the info from the controllers


and no Panopticon there are no trees older than some 4000 years

[Unified Serenity]

actually i know it but that doesn't help you that i know it

you must figure it out yourselves by the Grace of God

Man, your pretty god dam arrogant.

i know the Bible is true

if that makes me arrogant so be it

but it makes you an ignoramus

Wow, thanks for the great witness. It's sad really. I like the old saying that if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all. There was no purpose to your post but a tit for tat comment. I hope we can show a little bit more love, kindness, and patience. Yes, we debate as if swords sharpening swords, but your comment was unkind.

[RedeZra]

actually i know it but that doesn't help you that i know it

you must figure it out yourselves by the Grace of God

Man, your pretty god dam arrogant.

i know the Bible is true

if that makes me arrogant so be it

but it makes you an ignoramus

He's an ignoramus now?



and so are you if you think i'm arrogant

¤=[Post Update]=¤








actually i know it but that doesn't help you that i know it

you must figure it out yourselves by the Grace of God

Man, your pretty god dam arrogant.

i know the Bible is true

if that makes me arrogant so be it

but it makes you an ignoramus

Wow, thanks for the great witness.

she called me arrogant and so i called her ignoramus

what of it

grow up

[Bill Ryan]

actually i know it but that doesn't help you that i know it

you must figure it out yourselves by the Grace of God

Man, your pretty god dam arrogant.

i know the Bible is true

if that makes me arrogant so be it

but it makes you an ignoramus

Not a very good endorsement for Christianity.

:)

[Seikou-Kishi]

actually i know it but that doesn't help you that i know it

you must figure it out yourselves by the Grace of God

Man, your pretty god dam arrogant.

i know the Bible is true

if that makes me arrogant so be it

but it makes you an ignoramus

Not a very good endorsement for Christianity.

:)

Sadly also usually the loudest endorsement.

[RedeZra]

I can not believe in a retaliatory God.
Unconditional love is exactly that.

I believe the flood happened and people were given warning but paid no heed.
I suspect that the flood was part of a natural cycle-- nothing to do with God's wrath.

hi Chris

i don't believe in unconditional love but i believe in unconditional mercy and unconditional forgiveness after unconditional repentance


we might bring disasters upon ourselves by our actions

but God is God because He can stop or start disasters

He has the final Authority

and so if a disaster happens then God permits it to happen




If there were only a few survived the flood how come we have a yellow race, a redskin race, a black race, a white race?


our differences are only skin deep

we are much more alike than we differ from each other

environment plays the part in these skin differences

[Unified Serenity]

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1Pe 3:9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

Luke 6: 27-36

But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Matthew 22:36-40

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


May we all walk in kindness and love towards one another lest we become a stumbling block and cause other's to falter.

[RedeZra]

Man, your pretty god dam arrogant.

i know the Bible is true

if that makes me arrogant so be it

but it makes you an ignoramus

Not a very good endorsement for Christianity.

:)

i know Bill but my mood today chose to respond this way when being called arrogant

at least i didn't call her a viper ; )

[ThePythonicCow]

If this turns into a war of who gets the last word ... the admins win ... and we all lose.

:) :cow: :)

[RedeZra]

no i will say something


i am the one being called arrogant by several members in several posts now

and also here in my own thread

i am being called arrogant in a one sentence reply

and when i answer the poster in question with the same tone

then you all bang up on me


why ? because you are hypocrites

that's why ; )

[ThePythonicCow]

This thread is closed, while we take a look.

[ThePythonicCow]

This thread is now reopen again. Three members are on a one day vacation, for name calling, and one of those got an extra day, for refusing to stop when asked.

[Anchor]

This comment is for the thread and is NOT directed at anyone, especially not Redezra who has heard much of this from me before, but is repeated in the context of this heated thread. This thread topic will always surface from time to time - another firework with "light the blue touchpaper and retire" printed across the warning labels. It is a tough debate and reaches to the root cause of may kinds of beliefs systems. We need to robustly avoid degrading the opportunity it represents to thrash this out.

So...

I reject ANY God that uses fear and threats to get his message across.

If God tries that with me, he will loose and in fact has lost ... and this is not my puffed up ego talking... Its what I have created for myself.

If I hear a thundering voice coming from the heavens admonishing me I will laugh in its direction and make rude gestures for extra effect!

We are not above or below, we do not cower in submission to that which is effectively ourselves.

I do not need any kind of "Jack Bauer" God beating lessons into me with thunderbolts and lightning - I have enough problems I create myself. I drilled a freaking hole in my thumb at the weekend in a DIY accident. There is a lesson there which I have yet to discern but it was all my doing.

It doesn't mean we are not humble and we do not learn.

It means we reject fear and everything associated with it.

Love is the answer not fear.

Love not fear (worth repeating a few hundred times if necessary!)

So I say to any God of fearful theatrics - I know who you are and I am calling you out.

Stick that in your pipe Mr Fear God and smoke it.

AJ..

<Anchor: Goes off to ensure that the rather large lightening arrestor on the computer is properly functional>

[WhiteFeather]

This thread is now reopen again. Three members are on a one day vacation, for name calling, and one of those got an extra day, for refusing to stop when asked.

And Thou Was Sent to the Sin Bin. That's Hockey Lingo when you get sent to the penalty box.

[WhiteFeather]

My Favorite Skit From George Carlin On Religion. Holy Shyte! Hope this fits the thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE&feature=fvst

[panopticon]

As for there being no trees older than 4000 years you are overlooking the Huon Pine stands just down the road from me some of which date back 10,000 years and the Swedish spruces whose root systems have been dated at about the same. There's also the 4,842 years old 'Pinus longaeva' nicknamed 'Methuselah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah_(tree))' amongst many others that predate you flood timing.


and no Panopticon there are no trees older than some 4000 years

G'day RedeZra,

Yes there are.
They're just down the road from here...
I also reckon that the tree known as 'Prometheus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_(tree))' which was cut down in 1964, had its rings counted and came in at a conservative age of 4844 years (many estimate in excess of 5000 years), makes your position untenable.

You are welcome to say that this is the work of "the establishment for their controllers" as much as you like.
It simply doesn't change the facts.

Anyone who is watching this thread can see that you are avoiding the uncomfortable questions and being selective in your quoted material.

I think I'll go for a wander under the canopy and in the roots of the ancient forest down the road.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[panopticon]

G'day All,

I would like to take a moment and point out that there are many on this forum whose primary language is not English. This is not to say that their knowledge or wisdom is less, nor that their understanding of English is inferior, rather that their interpretation, discursive techniques used and understandings are seated within another language that is then translated. Even within those that have English as their primary language there can be dialect differences between them that sometimes lead to confusion. Using the written format makes this even more problematic as a typographical error, or differences in regional spelling, can produce confusion that is not evident in the spoken word.

I try to avoid contractions because (I was told this by a friend of mine a number of years ago and it may no longer be correct) in some translation programs contractions can cause problems and lead to misunderstandings. There are exceptions (I always use the stereotypical Australian "G'day" in the same way as I would in everyday life) however these are rare and usually only when I am exhausted or just plain forget.

When I first joined Avalon I had a momentary problem with another user because of the difference between US and Australia/English spelling of the word "tyre" (Aust) and "tire" (US). In the US a "car tyre" is spelt "car tire" and this led to a misunderstanding that I was referring to multi-level "tiers" instead of single level "tyres". While this is a subtle difference it led to confusion and, as I had been referring to the dangers to root vegetables of chemical leeching from "tyres", changed the discussion into something that was completely different and somewhat bizarre until the error was worked out.

I relate this to show that it is important to understand that apparent arrogance may be the result of language and/or dialect differences and not the actual user.

I have put much of the confrontational attitudes within this thread down to a combination of language and cultural difference.

As I have said in this and other threads, as well as in my everyday interactions, I have no problem with anyone believing whatever they wish, many people need their belief system to understand their place in the world, it is only when they proclaim they are right and, against all rhyme and reason, proclaim others as being wrong that I will ask them to prove it too me. I do not see this as wrong because through doing this I view it can challenge my world view and assist in both persons growth. Also if dogma where not challenged we would still believe that the Earth is flat, that the stars in the sky are holes in the firmament and that it is the divine right of monachs to reign over the populace.

To finish I would point out that our thoughts are both confined and defined by our language. This in turn confines and defines our interpretation and relationship to the world through the lens of our various cultures. These cultural perspectives are not readily apparent and produce habitual reactions, to any given situation, that we take as self evidently appropriate. It is through meditating on this difference and understanding the ways in which the discursive processes (working on and through us, our culture and language) define us that we can overcome provincialism and develop as self aware individuals.

Anyway, I'll get off my "soap box" and wait for the discussion to start up again.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Unified Serenity]

Hi Panopticon,

I appreciate what you are saying about language misunderstandings. I will point out that Red and I are not misunderstanding one another. We read the bible differently. He prefers to believe a snake tricked Eve and she ate some fruit while I prefer to base my understanding on the original Hebrew texts we have that clearly state she wanted to Naga the Tree, and that she was seduced. Hey, does it make a whole lot of difference in our paths?

Actually it does. It plays right into the parable of the Fig tree which I have started a thread on, the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, and understanding why the church of Smyrna was spoken of highly in Revelation and their main understanding goes right back to those two parables and knowing about the fact that some claim to be Jews and are not, but are of the house of Satan otherwise known as Kenites or children of Cain.

So, while I appreciate the spirit you wrote your post in, it really is not applicable to Red and me. Red thinks I am way off base, outside of mainstream christianity and you know what, he's right and I for one proudly will wear that badge of distinction.

Many blessings and much love,

Serenity

[RedeZra]

i've had trouble logging in to the forum lately

probably just some technical problems

but i apologise my absence to those that miss me ; )




this friends is a thread about the Bible the God of the Old Testamennt and the Christ of the New Testament

and not our own personal opinions or emotional imaginations about God

if you don't believe me than look at the topic title and see it says the Bible




Vengeance is Mine says God of the Old Testament


why would the Creator

flood the earth incinerate Sodom and Gomorrah and come as a Lamb to the slaughter to be Crucified on the Cross


why would an Avatar of God want the Kurukshetra war


those who don't believe in God don't have to ponder these questions

but you who believe in God feel free to enlighten me


why would God want war and worry ?



is it possible that you are cherry picking how you want God to be

or do you think God will conform to your image of Him ?


do you think we only have physical laws when we are more spirit than body and blood


what do God mean with Vengeance is Mine ?

[RedeZra]

the Bible is a Big book

but here are the bullet points



* God is the Trinity or the Three in One and the Creator Sustainer Destroyer


* there were Angels in Heaven before Man on Earth who was made a little less than an Angel

* angels begot giant human-angels hybrids with humans

* and taught our ancestors all kinds of heavenly secrets and genetically modified both humans and animals

* the Deluge

* War in Heaven


* the fallen angels were cast out of Heaven 9/10th to Hell and 1/10th to Earth

* because humans have a portion of guilt for the angels fall from the Grace of God

* fallen angels are ruling this world tricking humans to join them in Hell


* Christ came to make us aware of this and take our sins upon Him

* so if we repent and seek a relationship with Him then He will guard us from sin and guide us to truth so we can make it into Heaven instead of Hell

* which was ment for the fallen angels and not for humans but sin will bring us down with them

* if we don't know what sin is then check the Ten Commandments and see how we're doing


* a word to the wise seek the Mercy of Christ before the Judgement of God

* Christ is about to return and save the saints and the Earth is about to be purified by fire


there will be no Mercy before Repentance and if we refuse to repent then the just Judge will give us what we deserve

the danger here is that we might think we deserve more than we actually do

we might think we deserve Heaven but if God thinks otherwise than God has the final say friends

[modwiz]

Hello Red, Is your avatar the buddy Jesus from the movie "Dogma"? Looks like him to me. That was a great movie.

[RedeZra]

Hello Red, Is your avatar the buddy Jesus from the movie "Dogma"? Looks like him to me. That was a great movie.

hi Modwiz i believe it is from the movie Revelation ; )

[modwiz]

I see. Striking resemblance to Buddy Jesus from Dogma. My bad, it's Buddy Christ.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QwpuE0-5L.jpg

It's Buddy Christ from Dogma.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BEZaPN8gUY&feature=player_detailpage

[RedeZra]

I see. Striking resemblance to Buddy Jesus from Dogma. My bad, it's Buddy Christ.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QwpuE0-5L.jpg



ah you're right ; )

the form is from Dogma

but the content is from Revelation

[modwiz]

I see. Striking resemblance to Buddy Jesus from Dogma. My bad, it's Buddy Christ.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QwpuE0-5L.jpg



ah you're right ; )

the form is from Dogma

but the content is from Revelation

Enjoy. We all have a buddy in Christ.

[panopticon]

Hello Red, Is your avatar the buddy Jesus from the movie "Dogma"? Looks like him to me. That was a great movie.

G'day Modwiz,

Jay and Silent Bob rocked that muther!
I agree, it was a great film.
Carlin played the part tooooo well me thinks...
And Alanis as the divine feminine was exquisite.
Question:
How do you make God laugh?
Tell her your plans for the future.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[modwiz]

For those who love being informed about the bible:

from Ha'aretz Magazine, Friday, October 29, 1999)
Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs' acts are legendary stories, we did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, we did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon. Those who take an interest have known these facts for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and doesn't want to hear about it

This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.

Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people—and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story—now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells.

What follows is a short account of the brief history of archaeology, with the emphasis on the crises and the big bang, so to speak, of the past decade. The critical question of this archaeological revolution has not yet trickled down into public consciousness, but it cannot be ignored.

Inventing the Bible Stories
The archaeology of Palestine developed as a science at a relatively late date, in the late 19th and early 20th century, in tandem with the archaeology of the imperial cultures of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome. Those resource-intensive powers were the first target of the researchers, who were looking for impressive evidence from the past, usually in the service of the big museums in London, Paris and Berlin. That stage effectively passed over Palestine, with its fragmented geographical diversity. The conditions in ancient Palestine were inhospitable for the development of an extensive kingdom, and certainly no showcase projects such as the Egyptian shrines or the Mesopotamian palaces could have been established there. In fact, the archaeology of Palestine was not engendered at the initiative of museums but arose from religious motives.

The main push behind archaeological research in Palestine was the country's relationship with the Holy Scriptures. The first excavators in Jericho and Shechem (Nablus) were biblical researchers who were looking for the remains of the cities cited in the Bible. Archaeology assumed momentum with the activity of William Foxwell Albright, who mastered the archaeology, history and languagess of the Land of Israel and the ancient Near East. Albright, an American whose father was a priest of Chilean descent, began excavating in Palestine in the 1920's. His stated approach was that archaeology was the principal scientific means to refute the critical claims against the historical veracity of the Bible stories, particularly those of the Wellhausen school in Germany.

The school of biblical criticism that developed in Germany beginning in the second half of the 19th century, of which Julius Wellhausen was a leading figure, challenged the historicity of the Bible stories and claimed that biblical historiography was formulated, and in large measure actually 'invented', during the Babylonian exile. Bible scholars, the Germans in particular, claimed that the history of the Hebrews, as a consecutive series of events beginning with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and proceeding through the passage to Egypt, the enslavement and the exodus, and ending with the conquest of the land and the settlement of the tribes of Israel, was no more than a later reconstruction of events with a theological purpose.

Albright believed that the Bible is a historical document, which, although it had gone through several editing stages, nevertheless basically reflected the ancient reality. He was convinced that if the ancient remains of Palestine were uncovered, they would furnish unequivocal proof of the historical truth of the events relating to the Jewish people in its land.

The biblical archaeology that developed following Albright and his pupils brought about a series of extensive digs at the important biblical tells: Megiddo, Lachish, Gezer, Shechem (Nablus), Jericho, Jerusalem, Ai, Giveon, Beit She'an, Beit Shemesh, Hazor, Ta'anach and others. The way was straight and clear: every new finding contributed to the building of a harmonious picture of the past. The archaeologists, who enthusiastically adopted the biblical approach, set out on a quest to unearth the 'biblical period': the period of the patriarchs, the Canaanite cities that were destroyed by the Israelites as they conquered the land, the boundaries of the 12 tribes, the sites of the settlement period, characterized by 'settlement pottery', the 'gates of Solomon' at Hazor, Megiddo and Gezer, 'Solomon's stables' (or Ahab's), 'King Solomon's mines' at Timna—and there are some who are still hard at work and have found Mount Sinai (at Mount Karkoum in the Negev) or Joshua's altar at Mount Ebal.

The Crisis
Slowly, cracks began to appear in the picture. Paradoxically, a situation was created in which the glut of findings began to undermine the historical credibility of the biblical descriptions instead of reinforcing them. A crisis stage is reached when the theories within the framework of the general thesis are unable to solve an increasingly large number of anomalies.

The explanations become ponderous and inelegant, and the pieces do not fit together smoothly. Here are a few examples of how the harmonious picture collapsed.

• Patriarchal Age: The researchers found it difficult to reach agreement on which archaeological period matched the Patriarchal Age. When did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob live? When was the Cave of Machpelah (Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron) bought in order to serve as the burial place for the patriarchs and the matriarchs? According to the biblical chronology, Solomon built the Temple 480 years after the exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). To that we have to add 430 years of the stay in Egypt (Exodus 12:40) and the vast lifetimes of the patriarchs, producing a date in the 21st century BCE for Abraham's move to Canaan. However, no evidence has been unearthed that can sustain this chronology. Albright argued in the early 1960s in favor of assigning the wanderings of Abraham to the Middle Bronze Age (22nd -20th centuries BCE). However, Benjamin Mazar, the father of the Israeli branch of biblical archaeology, proposed identifying the historic background of the Patriarchal Age a thousand years later, in the 11th century BCE—which would place it in the 'settlement period'. Others rejected the historicity of the stories and viewed them as ancestral legends that were told in the period of the Kingdom of Judea. In any event, the consensus began to break down.

• The Exodus from Egypt, the wanderings in the desert and Mount Sinai: The many Egyptian documents that we have make no mention of the Israelites' presence in Egypt and are also silent about the events of the Exodus. Many documents do mention the custom of nomadic shepherds to enter Egypt during periods of drought and hunger and to camp at the edges of the Nile Delta. However, this was not a solitary phenomenon: such events occurred frequently over thousands of years and were hardly exceptional. Generations of researchers tried to locate Mount Sinai and the encampments of the tribes in the desert. Despite these intensive efforts, not even one site has been found that can match the biblical account.

The power of tradition has now led some researchers to 'discover' Mount Sinai in the northern Hijaz or, as already mentioned, at Mount Karkoum in the Negev. The central events in the history of the Israelites are not corroborated in documents external to the Bible or in archaeological findings. Most historians today agree that at best, the stay in Egypt and the exodus events occurred among a few families and that their private story was expanded and 'nationalized' to fit the needs of theological ideology.

• The conquest: One of the formative events of the people of Israel in biblical historiography is the story of how the land was conquered from the Canaanites. Yet extremely serious difficulties have cropped up precisely in the attempts to locate the archaeological evidence for this story. Repeated excavations by various expeditions at Jericho and Ai, the two cities whose conquest is described in the greatest detail in the Book of Joshua, have proved very disappointing. Despite the excavators' efforts, it emerged that in the late part of the 13th century BCE, at the end of the Late Bronze Age, which is the agreed period for the conquest, there were no cities in either tell, and of course no walls that could have been toppled. Naturally, explanations were offered for these anomalies. Some claimed that the walls around Jericho were washed away by rain, while others suggested that earlier walls had been used; and, as for Ai, it was claimed that the original story actually referred to the conquest of nearby Beit El and was transferred to Ai by later redactors.

Biblical scholars suggested a quarter of a century ago that the conquest stories be viewed as etiological legends and no more. But as more and more sites were uncovered and it emerged that the places in question died out or were simply abandoned at different times, the conclusion that there is no factual basis for the biblical story about the conquest by Israelite tribes in a military campaign led by Joshua was bolstered.

• The Canaanite cities: The Bible magnifies the strength and the fortifications of the Canaanite cities that were conquered by the Israelites: 'great cities with walls sky-high' (Deuteronomy 9:1). In practice, all the sites that have been uncovered turned up remains of unfortified settlements, which in most cases consisted of a few structures or the ruler's palace rather than a genuine city. The urban culture of Palestine in the Late Bronze Age disintegrated in a process that lasted hundreds of years and did not stem from military conquest.

Moreover, the biblical description is unfamiliar with the geopolitical reality in Palestine. Palestine was under Egyptian rule until the middle of the 12th century BCE. The Egyptians' administrative centers were located in Gaza, Yaffo and Beit She'an. Egyptian presence has also been discovered in many locations on both sides of the Jordan River. This striking presence is not mentioned in the biblical account, and it is clear that it was unknown to the author and his editors. The archaeological findings blatantly contradict the biblical picture: the Canaanite cities were not 'great,' were not fortified and did not have 'sky-high walls.' The heroism of the conquerors, the few versus the many and the assistance of the God who fought for his people are a theological reconstruction lacking any factual basis.

• Origin of the Israelites: The conclusions drawn from episodes in the emergence of the people of Israel in stages, taken together, gave rise to a discussion of the bedrock question: the identity of the Israelites. If there is no evidence for the exodus from Egypt and the desert journey, and if the story of the military conquest of fortified cities has been refuted by archaeology, who, then, were these Israelites? The archaeological findings did corroborate one important fact: in the early Iron Age (beginning some time after 1200 BCE), the stage that is identified with the 'settlement period', hundreds of small settlements were established in the area of the central hill region of the Land of Israel, inhabited by farmers who worked the land or raised sheep. If they did not come from Egypt, what is the origin of these settlers? Israel Finkelstein, professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, has proposed that these settlers were the pastoral shepherds who wandered in this hill area throughout the Late Bronze Age (graves of these people have been found, without settlements). According to his reconstruction, in the Late Bronze Age (which preceded the Iron Age) the shepherds maintained a barter economy of meat in exchange for grains with the inhabitants of the valleys. With the disintegration of the urban and agricultural system in the lowlands, the nomads were forced to produce their own grains, and hence the incentive for stable settlements.

The name 'Israel' is mentioned in a single Egyptian document from the period of Merneptah, king of Egypt, dating from 1208 BCE: 'Plundered is Canaan with every evil, Ascalon is taken, Gezer is seized, Yenoam has become as though it never was, Israel is desolated, its seed is not.' Merneptah refers to the country by its Canaanite name and mentions several cities of the kingdom, along with a non-urban ethnic group. According to this evidence, the term 'Israel' was given to one of the population groups that resided in Canaan toward the end of the Late Bronze Age, apparently in the central hill region, in the area where the Kingdom of Israel would later be established.

A Kingdom With No Name
• The united monarchy: Archaeology was also the source that brought about a shift regarding the reconstruction of the reality in the period known as the 'united monarchy' of David and Solomon. The Bible describes this period as the zenith of the political, military and economic power of the people of Israel in ancient times. In the wake of David's conquests, the empire of David and Solomon stretched from the Euphrates River to Gaza ('For he controlled the whole region west of the Euphrates, from Tiphsah to Gaza, all the kings west of the Euphrates,' 1 Kings 5:4). The archaeological findings at many sites show that the construction projects attributed to this period were meager in scope and power.

The three cities of Hazor, Megiddo and Gezer, which are mentioned among Solomon's construction enterprises, have been excavated extensively at the appropriate layers. Only about half of Hazor's upper city was fortified, covering an area of only 30 dunams (7.5 acres), out of a total area of 700 dunams which was settled in the Bronze Age. At Gezer there was apparently only a citadel surrounded by a casemate wall covering a small area, while Megiddo was not fortified with a wall. The picture becomes even more complicated in the light of the excavations conducted in Jerusalem, the capital of the united monarchy. Large sections of the city have been excavated over the past 150 years. The digs have turned up impressive remnants of the cities from the Middle Bronze Age and from Iron Age II ( the period of the Kingdom of Judea). No remains of buildings have been found from the period of the united monarchy (even according to the agreed chronology), only a few pottery shards. Given the preservation of the remains from earlier and later periods, it is clear that Jerusalem in the time of David and Solomon was a small city, perhaps with a small citadel for the king, but in any event it was not the capital of an empire as described in the Bible. This small chiefdom is the source of the title 'Beth David' mentioned in later Aramean and Moabite inscriptions. The authors of the biblical account knew Jerusalem in the 8th century BCE, with its wall and the rich culture of which remains have been found in various parts of the city, and projected this picture back to the age of the united monarchy. Presumably, Jerusalem acquired its central status after the destruction of Samaria, its northern rival, in 722 BCE.

The archaeological findings dovetail well with the conclusions of the critical school of biblical scholarship. David and Solomon were the rulers of tribal kingdoms that controlled small areas: the former in Hebron and the latter in Jerusalem. Concurrently, a separate kingdom began to form in the Samaria hills, which finds expression in the stories about Saul's kingdom. Israel and Judea were from the outset two separate, independent kingdoms, and at times were in an adversarial relationship. Thus, the great united monarchy is an imaginary historiosophic creation, which was composed during the period of the Kingdom of Judea at the earliest. Perhaps the most decisive proof of this is that we do not know the name of this kingdom.

YHWH and his Consort
How many gods, exactly, did Israel have? Together with the historical and political aspects, there are also doubts as to the credibility of the information about belief and worship. The question about the date at which monotheism was adopted by the kingdoms of Israel and Judea arose with the discovery of inscriptions in ancient Hebrew that mention a pair of gods: YHWH and his Asherath. At two sites, Kuntilet Ajrud in the southwestern part of the Negev hill region, and Khirbet el-Kom in the Judea piedmont, Hebrew inscriptions have been found that mention 'YHWH and his Asherah', 'YHWH Shomron and his Asherah', 'YHWH Teman and his Asherah'. The authors were familiar with a pair of gods, YHWH and his consort Asherah, and send blessings in the couple's name. These inscriptions, from the 8th century BCE, raise the possibility that monotheism, as a state religion, is actually an innovation of the period of the Kingdom of Judea, following the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel.

The archaeology of the Land of Israel is completing a process that amounts to a scientific revolution in its field. It is ready to confront the findings of biblical scholarship and of ancient history as an equal discipline. But at the same time, we are witnessing a fascinating phenomenon in that all this is simply ignored by the Israeli public. Many of the findings mentioned here have been known for decades. The professional literature in the spheres of archaeology, Bible and the history of the Jewish people has addressed them in dozens of books and hundreds of articles. Even if not all the scholars accept the individual arguments that inform the examples I have cited, the majority have adopted their main points. Nevertheless, these revolutionary views are not penetrating the public consciousness. About a year ago, my colleague, the historian Prof. Nadav Ne'eman, published an article in the Culture and Literature section of Ha'aretz entitled 'To Remove the Bible from the Jewish Bookshelf', but there was no public outcry. Any attempt to question the reliability of the biblical descriptions is perceived as an attempt to undermine 'our historic right to the land' and as a shattering of the myth of the nation that is renewing the ancient Kingdom of Israel. These symbolic elements constitute such a critical component of the construction of the Israeli identity that any attempt to call their veracity into question encounters hostility or silence. It is of some interest that such tendencies within the Israeli secular society go hand-in-hand with the outlook among educated Christian groups. I have found a similar hostility in reaction to lectures I have delivered abroad to groups of Christian Bible lovers, though what upset them was the challenge to the foundations of their fundamentalist religious belief. It turns out that part of Israeli society is ready to recognize the injustice that was done to the Arab inhabitants of the country and is willing to accept the principle of equal rights for women - but is not up to adopting the archaeological facts that shatter the biblical myth. The blow to the mythical foundations of the Israeli identity is apparently too threatening, and it is more convenient to turn a blind eye. •

Prof. Ze'ev Herzog teaches in the Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies at Tel Aviv University. He took part in the excavations of Hazor and Megiddo with Yigael Yadin and in the digs at Tel Arad and Tel Be'er Sheva with Yohanan Aharoni. He has conducted digs at Tel Michal and Tel Gerisa and has recently begun digging at Tel Yaffo. He is the author of books on the city gate in Palestine and its neighbors and on two excavations, and has written a book summing up the archaeology of the ancient city.

An eye opening, for those who are open to shifts in perception, article is here:http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/12/09/ancient-egypt-knew-no-pharaohs/

[RedeZra]

For those who love being informed about the bible:

from Ha'aretz Magazine, Friday, October 29, 1999)
Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs' acts are legendary stories, we did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, we did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon. Those who take an interest have known these facts for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and doesn't want to hear about it


but Wiz why copy-paste establishment info ?


the establishment gave us the official 911 version which many people even today believe

because they trust the establishment or they are just too lazy to look into it themselves


and so they read what the establishment feeds them and they think they are informed


i am gifted with discernment... i don't speak in tounge nor do i heal

but i can tell you what is right or wrong true or not ; )

[RedeZra]

to whom it may concern


i know some of you think you are God but you are not God

how can you be God when you don't even remember where you left the wallet and still you think you just forgot how you made the earth and sky

you are not God but a man as you are not the Creator but a creation


you have the potential to be really great but while you nurture that potential

who do you think is helping you along the way all the time ?


your higher self ? it's always about you

that must be why you show so little appreciation for the things and talents God has blessed you with


what would it cost you to show some gratitude once in a blue moon ? you don't have to do it on your knees ! God wants your backbone upright

leave a little room for God to bless you more abundantly and be not too busy playing God yourselves


you have forgotten your first love but God has not forgotten you... yet

[greybeard]

All religions, saints and sages stress-- surrender to the will of God, love thy neighbor, practice humility and forgiveness.
Thats it really.
Chris

[RedeZra]

All religions, saints and sages stress-- surrender to the will of God, love thy neighbor, practice humility and forgiveness.


yea but some think they are God and some don't even believe in God

how do we know the will of God by the way ?