Mission . . . Convert a Lifelong Meat Eater

[blufire]

I am completely open, serious and honest about this thread. Now is your time to convert a life long serious meat eater to becoming a vegetarian. I cannot do vegan or a raw food diet but if you can convince me that becoming vegetarian is possible I will convert.

Because this is my conversion we first need to address practical everyday existence and then once those are lined out we can then address the esoteric.

Vital Physical Statistics:
• I am 52 years old and female
• I am 5’8” tall and 145 to150 pounds
• I am in menopause and adjusting well
• I am over all very healthy for my age
• I take no pharmaceutical drugs and limited herbals for general osteoarthritis
• I do not smoke (anything) and a social drinker
• I do not use recreational drugs of any kind
• I require a minimum of 2500 calories a day and some days 3000 to 4000 calories
• Because of my blood type (O neg) and race/heritage (mostly Scotch-Irish) there are certain plant proteins I do digest or utilize completely


My Chosen Lifestyle:
• I am working to becoming totally self reliant and off grid
• My new farm will be self sustaining and eco-balanced
• The area I live in is very secluded and economically depressed
• I grow all my food organically or naturally including livestock
• I am a medicinal herbalist


Caveats:

This will be the biggest clincher. It is my belief we will soon not have access to grocery stores nor do I want to eat most food that comes from these places. Also it is my belief we should all be responsible for our own existence. So my diet cannot include vegetables, fruit, dairy or legumes purchased from a grocery store.

I believe in eating only seasonally and locally.

I must be able to grow all my food within my areas growing season and preserve it using canning methods, dehydration, fermentation, salt, sugar or smoke cured, soil storage and root cellars . . . no refrigeration or freezers.

My protein sources have to come from food sources in my geological location. This means it has to grow here, so no exotic nuts, legumes or fruits.

I do have chickens and so plenty of eggs. I will have either goats or a milk cow so I will be able to make cheese, yogurt and other dairy products. This will take a few months though before I’m ready for large livestock.

Okay this is a good start with my info . . . . have at it!!!

[vibrations]

IMHO, only one person is capable to convince you to change something. His name is Bluefire. Your own experience will in some point lead you to make the change. Or not. Any decision you make is absolutely correct. So, no worries.

And I think the process has already begun.

[blufire]

No vibrations you are simply wrong. I have worked this over and over in my mind. I tend to very carefully look at things from all angles.

I truly struggle with how to fill my dietary needs and lifestyle without eating meat.

Again at this point I will ONLY address practical everyday existence reasons . . . no esoteric or emotional tangents.

First help me to figure out how to eat properly without purchasing organic food which is not possible where I live now and how to eat through the winter months with no fresh vegetables or fruit.

I am a woman . . . obviously you did not read my opening post very well. :p



IMHO, only one person is capable to convince you to change something. His name is Bluefire. Your own experience will in some point lead you to make the change. Or not. Any decision you make is absolutely correct. So, no worries.

And I think the process has already begun.

[vibrations]

I fell in vegetarianism with no thinking, no planning, nothing. Just seeing one day that meet in my fridge was almost a month there. Then I started to search how will I be able to survive not eating meat. And when I finished shaking, I breakdown the needs and discover that many vegetable food has a lot of proteins, so comparing what is out there wrapped with plastic and sold as a food, you just gain, never loose.
My first move was to start to visit local markets, the farmers are bringing a lot of things less poisoned than industrial food, you can exchange some recipes with locals, trying to figure out how they prepare food for the winter and so on. Just start and things will flow, first slowly, then faster.

And my apologies, it's true I just quick pass over some points and lost the point.

An being a woman is for me an advantage. you are so keen to invent meals from nothing. And we, we eat pizza.

And one more thing. Let apart the callories calculation, guide yourself by your hearth. Be intuitive also about food. I was living calculator, and doesn't help. At least this is my experience. We need to relax all kind of tensions. That was my lesson.

[Corncrake]

Blufire - I am a 55 year old woman, post menopause and the same height as you who has been vegetarian for 25 years - some of that time vegan and thrive on it! However, I live in the city and am unable to grow my own food - I do have an organic food box of mostly 'local' fruit and vegetables delivered weekly. My niece who is 50 lives a few miles away and has several allotments (some land she leases from the local council) and is almost self sufficient. We both like to cook and live on seasonal produce - it can be done but I do use some imported produce during the winter months for variety otherwise one tends to exist on root vegetables or food frozen, pickled or bottled during the summer. It is difficult at first but when you get organised it can be done! Not easy at first but persevere - you will enjoy it! Good luck.

[modwiz]

Blufire - I am a 55 year old woman, post menopause and the same height as you who has been vegetarian for 25 years - some of that time vegan and thrive on it! However, I live in the city and am unable to grow my own food - I do have an organic food box of mostly 'local' fruit and vegetables delivered weekly. My niece who is 50 lives a few miles away and has several allotments (some land she leases from the local council) and is almost self sufficient. We both like to cook and live on seasonal produce - it can be done but I do use some imported produce during the winter months for variety otherwise one tends to exist on root vegetables or food frozen, pickled or bottled during the summer. It is difficult at first but when you get organised it can be done! Not easy at first but persevere - you will enjoy it! Good luck.

I have been a vegetarian for 21 years. I am a bodyworker/massage therapist and do a lot of deep tissue demanding heavy work. The need to repair my body is ongoing. At 58 years of age my health is freakishly great. I have lived in a tent for six months at a time during good weather at an institute where I do massage 5 days a week for the past two years. They feed us 3 veggie meals a day. Despite the usual flus and other 'bugs' that seem to vex any community I have never been ill for a minute and have never missed a day of work.

Like you Corncrake, I thrive on my diet. I make most of my omnivorous co-workers look like sickly weaklings. Especially the younger ones.

Good luck Blufire, the only real hurdle you have is yourself and the conditions you will impose for the logistics of your diet. Where there is the will, there is the way.

[blufire]

Hi Corncrake, lol yes root vegetables through the winter is very much a staple. I think I know 500 ways (exaggerating) to fix potatoes, carrots, turnips, parsnips etc. I do have a substantial amount of canned and dehydrated food . . . . actually to last several years. I am capable of grinding my own wheat and corn so breads are also a staple.

Also I will have a “high tunnel” erected soon, which is basically an unheated greenhouse. I will be able to grow some greens this winter but fresh will have to wait til spring.

Again . . . I work very hard physical labor everyday. I’m not kidding when I say I consume a minimum of 2500 calories a day. This weekend we will be cutting firewood and my intake will be more like 3000 to 4000 calories.

My body type and lifestyle requires a significant amount of protein. I know about all the different vegetables and legumes and proteins. But it is difficult to achieve proper levels of certain amino acids/proteins unless consuming red meat.

I am asking for help or ideas to find a healthy well balanced diet that will fit my lifestyle.





Blufire - I am a 55 year old woman, post menopause and the same height as you who has been vegetarian for 25 years - some of that time vegan and thrive on it! However, I live in the city and am unable to grow my own food - I do have an organic food box of mostly 'local' fruit and vegetables delivered weekly. My niece who is 50 lives a few miles away and has several allotments (some land she leases from the local council) and is almost self sufficient. We both like to cook and live on seasonal produce - it can be done but I do use some imported produce during the winter months for variety otherwise one tends to exist on root vegetables or food frozen, pickled or bottled during the summer. It is difficult at first but when you get organised it can be done! Not easy at first but persevere - you will enjoy it! Good luck.

[enfoldedblue]

I was Vego for ten years, then went back to eating meat for several years (though not a lot). Recently I have returned to not eating meat. I really think it is a personal choice, so I am not going to try to convince you of anything, but will happily share my perspective. For me I feel much lighter when I don't eat meat. I also feel somewhat less emersed in the physical world and more connected to the spirit world. The period where I returned to eating meat was a period where I needed to focus on my abilities to navigate in the physical world. Now I learnt what I needed to learn and no longer require the same degree of emersion in the densities.

One of the things I learnt was to really listen to my body...we now have an excellent relationship...working together to ensure our time here is happy and confortable, and we feel vibrant and shiny. My body is very happy with my decision to avoid meat...meat is HARD work for the body!

One of the many reasons I feel lighter not eating meat is that I always felt that if I eat meat I should be able to kill the animal myself. I think most people when they kill an animal disconnect and step out of their heart space. I believe the most honorable way to kill would be to stay fully connected in one's heart space..and FEEL everything that came with the act. I am not up to this, so there was always a part of me that was not quite comfortable eating meat because I knew I was not fully in my inetgrity.

If you do decide to go vegetarian I highly recommend the Moosewood cookbook. There are so many yummy recipes!

It's funny because there really seems to be an addictive element to meat. When you eat it, you feel like it would be hard to go without, and meals seem to revolve around it, but when you've given it up for a while you feel like you are not missing a thing, and concept of eating flesh can actually start to seem a bit gross.

Whatever you decide, I'm sure it will be the perfect thing for you :)

LOVE ALLways, c

[WhiteFeather]

Start Here My Friend, this has worked for me as well as my son in college! I have Been a vegetarian for two years now, and i believe it has helped me in my spiritual journey towards Oneness. Good Luck Blufire.


Disturbing Content, User Discretion Is Advised Here!

http://www.meatvideo.com

[blufire]

A Thought to Ponder:

When the global economical collapse takes a final death grip and complete chaos ensues or some natural disaster strikes that shuts off your food source what will you do if you can’t go to the grocery store and buy fresh vegetables and fruit? I have read the information here on PA about the supplements, protein supplement, essential fatty acids, vitamins (B6 B12) etc that many times vegs need to supplement their diet with. What if you can no longer buy these?

I’m not being facetious . . . these are the things I think about. Is a vegetarian diet truly self sustaining where I live or for anybody?

If we truly want to start changing the world and how we have destroyed it where are we going to start? Right now we rely on fossil fuels to ship our food and supplements from all over the world.

Please help me to understand how to be a vegetarian by eating purely local and seasonally without supplementing or purchasing food shipped in from all over the world or even across the nation.

I live now deep in the Appalachian Mountains. The nearest true grocery store is an hour away and no organic food stores within two hours.

Even using refrigeration fresh fruits and vegetables are gone in a matter of weeks. So what do I eat through the winter months that will keep me healthy and well balanced.

Modwiz you said “the only real hurdle you have is yourself and the conditions you will impose for the logistics of your diet. Where there is the will, there is the way.”

The conditions I am imposing on myself are conditions everyone in reality is living. It is an illusion if you are buying your food from a grocery store and think this is self sustaining. Food is the ultimate weapon and “they” will use it and are.

[blufire]

Thank you very much enfoldedblue for your input.

One question . . . where do you get your food? Grocery store?



I was Vego for ten years, then went back to eating meat for several years (though not a lot). Recently I have returned to not eating meat. I really think it is a personal choice, so I am not going to try to convince you of anything, but will happily share my perspective. For me I feel much lighter when I don't eat meat. I also feel somewhat less emersed in the physical world and more connected to the spirit world. The period where I returned to eating meat was a period where I needed to focus on my abilities to navigate in the physical world. Now I learnt what I needed to learn and no longer require the same degree of emersion in the densities.

One of the things I learnt was to really listen to my body...we now have an excellent relationship...working together to ensure our time here is happy and confortable, and we feel vibrant and shiny. My body is very happy with my decision to avoid meat...meat is HARD work for the body!

One of the many reasons I feel lighter not eating meat is that I always felt that if I eat meat I should be able to kill the animal myself. I think most people when they kill an animal disconnect and step out of their heart space. I believe the most honorable way to kill would be to stay fully connected in one's heart space..and FEEL everything that came with the act. I am not up to this, so there was always a part of me that was not quite comfortable eating meat because I knew I was not fully in my inetgrity.

If you do decide to go vegetarian I highly recommend the Moosewood cookbook. There are so many yummy recipes!

It's funny because there really seems to be an addictive element to meat. When you eat it, you feel like it would be hard to go without, and meals seem to revolve around it, but when you've given it up for a while you feel like you are not missing a thing, and concept of eating flesh can actually start to seem a bit gross.

Whatever you decide, I'm sure it will be the perfect thing for you :)

LOVE ALLways, c

[blufire]

Thank you Whitefeather,

I’m completely aware of the brutality of how animals are treated, which is why I raise my own humanely.

I’m trying to stay away from the emotional part of being a meat eater because we always get stuck with that highly charged debate.

I first would like to truly understand how a vegetarian diet is possible. What if I lived in Alaska or the deserts of Africa or the US where growing fresh vegetables or fruit with sustainable methods is not possible?

It is not even possible where I live now . . . through the winter months.

I can’t wrap my mind around the logic. I keep thinking back (not to long ago) the diets of people before grocery stores and shipping. I don’t think it was possible to be vegetarian unless you lived in tropical regions.



Start Here My Friend, this has worked for me as well as my son in college! I have Been a vegetarian for two years now, and i believe it has helped me in my spiritual journey towards Oneness. Good Luck Blufire.


Disturbing Content, User Discretion Is Advised Here!

http://www.meatvideo.com

[modwiz]

A Thought to Ponder:

When the global economical collapse takes a final death grip and complete chaos ensues or some natural disaster strikes that shuts off your food source what will you do if you can’t go to the grocery store and buy fresh vegetables and fruit? I have read the information here on PA about the supplements, protein supplement, essential fatty acids, vitamins (B6 B12) etc that many times vegs need to supplement their diet with. What if you can no longer buy these?

I’m not being facetious . . . these are the things I think about. Is a vegetarian diet truly self sustaining where I live or for anybody?

If we truly want to start changing the world and how we have destroyed it where are we going to start? Right now we rely on fossil fuels to ship our food and supplements from all over the world.

Please help me to understand how to be a vegetarian by eating purely local and seasonally without supplementing or purchasing food shipped in from all over the world or even across the nation.

I live now deep in the Appalachian Mountains. The nearest true grocery store is an hour away and no organic food stores within two hours.

Even using refrigeration fresh fruits and vegetables are gone in a matter of weeks. So what do I eat through the winter months that will keep me healthy and well balanced.

Modwiz you said “the only real hurdle you have is yourself and the conditions you will impose for the logistics of your diet. Where there is the will, there is the way.”

The conditions I am imposing on myself are conditions everyone in reality is living. It is an illusion if you are buying your food from a grocery store and think this is self sustaining. Food is the ultimate weapon and “they” will use it and are.

I am living in the here and now, where the body I feed is living. What may come I will deal with then. At this point in time I have a store that takes me about a half hour to drive to. I stock up on things and spend much of my Winter eating beans and a grain. I have a nice green mix called nano greens that I use for folates and things that I got from my 70 year old vegan M.D. who I am really just friends with because I have no use for her services though she has used my bodywork services.

The illusion of sustaining myself from a store is currently working, as it is for most people in this country. I stand by my statement.

I will now bow out of this thread.

[enfoldedblue]

You could learn to grow spirulina, which has many vitamins (including B12), minerals, and protein.
Here's a link:
http://www.algaeindustrymagazine.com/growing-spirulina-at-home/

there are many others, including 'how to' youtube videos.

[Sierra]

Bluefire,

It sounds as if you are trying to figure out how to sustain yourself on a local vegetarian diet with high protein/caloric needs? (And the picture I am getting from the responses is that being vegan or vegetarian is a global economy luxury requiring imported goods, unless one is fortunate to live in a particularly blessed region ...).

When I look at the historical picture of humans in cold areas with real winter seasons, really existing in a local economy, they did not thrive so well without meat, during the winter months.

Maybe if this thread was in the health section, there would be some experts to hop on with new knowledge to make it possible to perform this difficult feat you ask of yourself ... ;)

Sierra

[enfoldedblue]

ooops...I thought I clicked on reply with quote....oh well, just imagine the quote from blufire post #11 is here

Well my partner and I are trying to elliminate the grocery store as much as possible. We are in the process of establishing our gardens...which is a bit of a challenge because the wild turkeys love to dig everything up...grrr. My partner is buying netting to keep the pesky things out as we speak. We go to the local markets every week and buy as much as we can from people who grow in our area...our favorite stall is an organic stall that sells goods grown on a local farm that is set up as a project to help troubled youth get in touch with nature and learn important agricultural skills. We are also very involved in our local community and working with others to establish networks and community ventures. For example cow-share (where several families purchase a cow together and share in the care and milking as well as the milk).

We have not completely illiminated the grocery store yet, but we are heading in that direction.

[Lettherebelight]

Hi Blufire. Why not try an easier option? Eggs!
Keep chickens, have all the eggs you want, and when it gets really cold you could use them for meat if you need to.
You could also have fish?(if there's any around)...I know cold climates like Scandinavia etc, they are big on dried fish.
In Scotland, they have always eaten a lot of oats, prepared savoury as well as sweet, and added to many dishes. They give slow release carbohydrate energy- good for colder climates.
I hope you stay nice and warm this winter! :smow:
Sorry this is not a totally vegetarian suggestion, just some ideas.
I admire what you are doing, I wish you every success!

[Lettherebelight]

Sorry, Blufire, just saw in you OP you already have chickens.
Do you grow sprouts? I heard this is a good way of sustaining optimum health.
I think your milk cows are a good idea, they used to live below people's houses (like Swiss chalets) to keep the houses warmer in winter. (you probably knew that already...)

[blufire]

Thank You Sierra, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you feel it needs to be moved to the health section then . . . . move away. I don’t think it really matters though do you? ;)

As far as this being a difficult feat for only me is partially complete. If I can’t with all my skills as a organic farmer, homesteader and herbalist become a vegetarian and remain healthy then I’m not sure if it is a viable option for the general population as a whole.

This has truly has been a struggle for me. It (being vegetarian) doesn’t seem logical for the very reasons you stated in your post.

It seems to me . . . . and hopefully I can be proved wrong . . . that if you take away the highly emotional, volatile and polarizing nature of eating meat the discussion stops.


Bluefire,

It sounds as if you are trying to figure out how to sustain yourself on a local vegetarian diet with high protein/caloric needs? (And the picture I am getting from the responses is that being vegan or vegetarian is a global economy luxury requiring imported goods, unless one is fortunate to live in a particularly blessed region ...).

When I look at the historical picture of humans in cold areas with real winter seasons, really existing in a local economy, they did not thrive so well without meat, during the winter months.

Maybe if this thread was in the health section, there would be some experts to hop on with new knowledge to make it possible to perform this difficult feat you ask of yourself ... ;)

Sierra

[blufire]

I love to hear things like this!!! Please don’t give up!!

A hint about the turkeys and a few other critters. Have your partner . . . if he is a guy . . . pee all around your garden area essentially marking your territory. Well you could collect your urine too and spread it around . . . easier for guys though. :p I have great luck with this. Or if that is bit too gross you can buy cd’s of recordings of fox and coyote calls and play it when the turkeys are most active. Keeps the little suckers scared away.






ooops...I thought I clicked on reply with quote....oh well, just imagine the quote from blufire post #11 is here

Well my partner and I are trying to elliminate the grocery store as much as possible. We are in the process of establishing our gardens...which is a bit of a challenge because the wild turkeys love to dig everything up...grrr. My partner is buying netting to keep the pesky things out as we speak. We go to the local markets every week and buy as much as we can from people who grow in our area...our favorite stall is an organic stall that sells goods grown on a local farm that is set up as a project to help troubled youth get in touch with nature and learn important agricultural skills. We are also very involved in our local community and working with others to establish networks and community ventures. For example cow-share (where several families purchase a cow together and share in the care and milking as well as the milk).

We have not completely illiminated the grocery store yet, but we are heading in that direction.

[blufire]

Thank You Lettherebelight, Yes I have lots of chickens and they provide me with wonderful eggs , , but I swear I sure would have to eat a bucket full before I would achieve my caloric needs.

I do sprout and have enough seeds (about 8 different kinds) saved to last about 10 years even if I sprouted every day. Many of the seeds are from my organic farm in Kansas.

I can’t wait to get everything ready for my new cow. I had to sell my Jersey when I moved. Her name was PJ and so very sweet. I miss her and her milk, cheese, yogurt and butter very much. Although milking through the winter months is pretty tough.



Sorry, Blufire, just saw in you OP you already have chickens.
Do you grow sprouts? I heard this is a good way of sustaining optimum health.
I think your milk cows are a good idea, they used to live below people's houses (like Swiss chalets) to keep the houses warmer in winter. (you probably knew that already...)

[enfoldedblue]

I love to hear things like this!!! Please don’t give up!!

A hint about the turkeys and a few other critters. Have your partner . . . if he is a guy . . . pee all around your garden area essentially marking your territory. Well you could collect your urine too and spread it around . . . easier for guys though. :p I have great luck with this. Or if that is bit too gross you can buy cd’s of recordings of fox and coyote calls and play it when the turkeys are most active. Keeps the little suckers scared away.






ooops...I thought I clicked on reply with quote....oh well, just imagine the quote from blufire post #11 is here

Well my partner and I are trying to elliminate the grocery store as much as possible. We are in the process of establishing our gardens...which is a bit of a challenge because the wild turkeys love to dig everything up...grrr. My partner is buying netting to keep the pesky things out as we speak. We go to the local markets every week and buy as much as we can from people who grow in our area...our favorite stall is an organic stall that sells goods grown on a local farm that is set up as a project to help troubled youth get in touch with nature and learn important agricultural skills. We are also very involved in our local community and working with others to establish networks and community ventures. For example cow-share (where several families purchase a cow together and share in the care and milking as well as the milk).

We have not completely illiminated the grocery store yet, but we are heading in that direction.

Thanks blufire,

Unfortunately our turkeys are not offended by our pee in the least. In fact they like to dig around in spots where we pee....and once I saw my naked three year old poo on the ground and in a split second a turkey was there gobbling it up...GROSS!!

Fingers crossed the netting works :)

[Seikou-Kishi]

IMHO, only one person is capable to convince you to change something. His name is Bluefire. Your own experience will in some point lead you to make the change. Or not. Any decision you make is absolutely correct. So, no worries.

And I think the process has already begun.

Considering Bluefire says she's currently going through her menopause, I would say Bluefire is her name rather than his name :P

[blufire]

Well . . . I hope the netting works . . . . My honest opinion on what needs to be done I will keep to myself

[ThePythonicCow]

I can’t wait to get everything ready for my new cow. I had to sell my Jersey when I moved. Her name was PJ and so very sweet.
Good name for a cow.

My initials are PJ.

:) :cow: :)

[blufire]

I can’t wait to get everything ready for my new cow. I had to sell my Jersey when I moved. Her name was PJ and so very sweet.
Good name for a cow.

My initials are PJ.

:) :cow: :)


Oh good lord!! I absolutely love it!!

I know there was a reason I am so fond of you :hug:

[enfoldedblue]

Well . . . I hope the netting works . . . . My honest opinion on what needs to be done I will keep to myself

Can't say I haven't been tempted by the idea...lol...In a moment of frustration there was some talk of xmas dinner...but after the poo incident that idea completely lost its appeal. There are also really cute pademelons, which are very small cute kangaroos, that the garden needs protection from as well...and parrots...and bandicoots...

[blufire]

Well that threw me for a bit. . had to check your profile . . . I know nothing about Australia critters . . no wonder the pee didn’t work

High Tunnels would possibly be an option. . . . . electrified and fortified



Well . . . I hope the netting works . . . . My honest opinion on what needs to be done I will keep to myself

Can't say I haven't been tempted by the idea...lol...In a moment of frustration there was some talk of xmas dinner...but after the poo incident that idea completely lost its appeal. There are also really cute pademelons, which are very small cute kangaroos, that the garden needs protection from as well...and parrots...and bandicoots...

[Anchor]

I am living in the here and now, where the body I feed is living. What may come I will deal with then. At his point in time I have a store that takes me about a half hour to drive to. I stock up on things and spend much of my Winter eating beans and a grain. I have a nice green mix called nano greens that I use for folates and things that I got from my 70 year old vegan M.D. who I am really just friends with because I have no use for her services though she has used my bodywork services.

The illusion of sustaining myself from a store is currently working, as it is for most people in this country. I stand by my statement.


I think your both right in your own ways.

[blufire]

I do agree with both your and modwiz’s statements

Being a vegetarian is doable with grocery stores, global shipping and internet purchasing . . . not for all but most.

If I am to be effective in initiating change in how I live my life and my personal responsibility and part in causing destruction of our planet then it is paramount that the entire mode of my way of life be deeply examined.

Starting with the basics . . . Food, Water and Shelter . . . and these have to be able to be maintained sustainably or continue year after year without exhausting the natural resources around me.

It is my quest to create a new way of living that does not include the miserable existence that has been laid out for us by the elite.

And food is a huge weapon “they” use against us. So for me, to have to continue to rely on the distribution of food through grocery stores and food that is genetically altered and causing diseases is not an option.

And so, is it possible for me to be a vegetarian within the general outline of my OP?








I am living in the here and now, where the body I feed is living. What may come I will deal with then. At his point in time I have a store that takes me about a half hour to drive to. I stock up on things and spend much of my Winter eating beans and a grain. I have a nice green mix called nano greens that I use for folates and things that I got from my 70 year old vegan M.D. who I am really just friends with because I have no use for her services though she has used my bodywork services.

The illusion of sustaining myself from a store is currently working, as it is for most people in this country. I stand by my statement.


I think your both right in your own ways.

[DNA]

Blufire you are hardcore! What a wonderfull existance. :)
I don't know if you can grow Quinoa in your area, but it is a hardy plant and provides lysine which is an amino acid most vegetarians don't get enough of.




Although not a common item in most kitchens today, quinoa is an amino acid-rich (protein) seed that has a fluffy, creamy, slightly crunchy texture and a somewhat nutty flavor when cooked. Quinoa is available in your local health food stores throughout the year. Most commonly considered a grain, quinoa is actually a relative of leafy green vegetables like spinach and Swiss chard. It is a recently rediscovered ancient "grain" once considered "the gold of the Incas."





I was a vegetarian for seven years.
One of the most memorable days of my life is when I broke with traditions and ate some cow.

I felt amazing the next day.
The weeks that followed I was amazed at how much stronger and healthier I felt.

Personally I will never go back to a vegetarian life style.


Bluefire,

It sounds as if you are trying to figure out how to sustain yourself on a local vegetarian diet with high protein/caloric needs? (And the picture I am getting from the responses is that being vegan or vegetarian is a global economy luxury requiring imported goods, unless one is fortunate to live in a particularly blessed region ...).

When I look at the historical picture of humans in cold areas with real winter seasons, really existing in a local economy, they did not thrive so well without meat, during the winter months.



I agree with Sierra here. In cold climates bovine and other animals can live off of things we can't. Grass and hay. And chickens can sustain themselves on local insects and some provided grain.
Heck, it may not sound appetizing, but in instances of no food being available in terms of economic collapse, pigs can live off of human feces.

On another note, you could take a page out of Ed Dames book and begin experimenting with cooking insects. Worms, grubs, and other ground insects are available in winter, especially if you devote a little to raising them.

Hakuna Mattata :)

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEVczA8PLU

[Ultima Thule]

Blufire, great thread!

I´ll be quick with just a few points(and partially not absolutely serious):

Pros:
- up the amount of vegetables -> a good thing
- ecologically might be a sound option
- you miss out on a lot of antibiotics and hormones(if you consume commercial meat)

Cons:
- your bloodype O is specially suited to eating meat. A bummer... The blood type diet has sound basis when it comes to lectins interacting with the blood cell surface glycoproteins. It is not absolute as there are subtypes of the ABO-groups and in excess of that about 30 other blood groupings. ABO though having most to do with the lectins. Word comes from (se)lecting, that is they are substances that select i.e. attach. Wrong nutrition causing blood cell aggregation which is not good at all.
- If you live in a cold climate, eating vegetarian is a challenge - it quickly becomes too cold for the body. You need to prepare meals hot, sometimes spicy and still might not make it warm enough
- with your O-blood you most likely will not be able to compensate with barley, wheat, rye or corn. That will make a major part of commercial products you cannot use.
- it is difficult to acquire all the necessary amino acids from usual vegetarian sources - eating eggs in substantial amounts would counter that!
- there is the risk of not getting enough protein, leading to decrease in serum albumin levels, leading to interstitial fluid accumulation, that is swelling etc.
- the last two are typical vegetarian setbacks, making collagen production difficult, ending up in loose structures and swelling. THIS IS MOST USUAL IN COLD CLIMATES, IMO in warm climates it is whole another thing and much more doable!
- the last con: you miss out on eating meat!

ALLTHOUGH: check out Dawns thread on breatharianism and it will make a spin on this to say the least. What I just laid down could be thought of as 3D physiology, I am completely open to the rules changing if you change the game into different frequency.

Juha

[Daughter of Time]

Although I believe vegetarianism is the ideal diet for humans, our bodies have become so accustomed to eating meat since the ice age, that for many of us, giving up meat completely, could actually lead to the break down of our health. If becoming a vegetarian comes naturally, then congratulations, good for you, that's great! But if you crave meat, then indulge your body. If the animal has had a regular life, free to roam, feed and play, then I don't think eating meat is that unethical, again, if your body craves it. A few ounces go a long way for me.

[DNA]

Although I believe vegetarianism is the ideal diet for humans, our bodies have become so accustomed to eating meat since the ice age, that for many of us, giving up meat completely, could actually lead to the break down of our health. If becoming a vegetarian comes naturally, then congratulations, good for you, that's great! But if you crave meat, then indulge your body. If the animal has had a regular life, free to roam, feed and play, then I don't think eating meat is that unethical, again, if your body craves it. A few ounces go a long way for me.

Excellent point DOT. The vast majority of human existance was during that ice age.
Meat eating is found in our earliest ancestors. Australpithecus began eating meat before the effects of the ice age on mankind, and Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens had to hunt all through the ice age which is the vast majority of our existance on this planet.
I dare say if a Wooly Mammoth existed today, we would probably find it tasty due to some evolutionary appreciation of it's flavor. :)

[joamarks]

hello bluefire,

i think i can help you :)

im a vegetarian for only one year. (before i had periods of eating less or no meat.)

there is a program "fitday" which keeps track of all your intakes of vitamins, calories, fats, protein, minerals, etc.
you can use it online or download it to your own computer.
https://www.fitday.com/fitness/Login.html

signing up is free.

here you can experiment with different meals and see directly what it's outcome on the calorie charts

it will suit you because you can keep up exactly whit stone hard facts, what goes in and where you have your deficiencies on essential vitamins or minerals

if you fill in your daily intake on vegan food you will be surprised how much you protein and fat you will consume on just fruit and greens.

im on a 80/10/10 diet for a 3 months. (80% carbohydrate, 10% fat 10% protein)
and this is my chart looks like:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/418/fitday.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/37/fitday.jpg/)

if you eat nuts, olives, avocado, coconut, oil, you get your calories easy.

if this is all to much exotic, then you need to eat and drink more butter, milk, eggs.
but i wouldn't advise that kind of diet, because its highly acid forming in your body.


greetings from holland.

by the way, what is the main reason do you want to be a vegetarian? to lower cost? to be healthier?, for the animals sake?

[joamarks]

here an other view on the program.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5118/fitday2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/fitday2.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Lord Sidious]

I love to hear things like this!!! Please don’t give up!!

A hint about the turkeys and a few other critters. Have your partner . . . if he is a guy . . . pee all around your garden area essentially marking your territory. Well you could collect your urine too and spread it around . . . easier for guys though. :p I have great luck with this. Or if that is bit too gross you can buy cd’s of recordings of fox and coyote calls and play it when the turkeys are most active. Keeps the little suckers scared away.


ooops...I thought I clicked on reply with quote....oh well, just imagine the quote from blufire post #11 is here

Well my partner and I are trying to elliminate the grocery store as much as possible. We are in the process of establishing our gardens...which is a bit of a challenge because the wild turkeys love to dig everything up...grrr. My partner is buying netting to keep the pesky things out as we speak. We go to the local markets every week and buy as much as we can from people who grow in our area...our favorite stall is an organic stall that sells goods grown on a local farm that is set up as a project to help troubled youth get in touch with nature and learn important agricultural skills. We are also very involved in our local community and working with others to establish networks and community ventures. For example cow-share (where several families purchase a cow together and share in the care and milking as well as the milk).

We have not completely illiminated the grocery store yet, but we are heading in that direction.

I could just see it, I go out and start marking my territory.
The cops roll up and want to know what the hell I am doing peeing all over the place?
And I tell em ''Marking my territory to keep the wild turkeys away''
You know where they would take me. :p



I can’t wait to get everything ready for my new cow. I had to sell my Jersey when I moved. Her name was PJ and so very sweet.
Good name for a cow.

My initials are PJ.

:) :cow: :)

We could call you pyjamas then. :eyebrows:

Anyways, I am in my first week of no meat at all.
I can't grow anything as there is no soil available to do that, so I am reliant on stores for now.
I do intend on moving when I can so that I can become more self reliant.
I would like to keep animals such as cows for milk, goats for cheese (love that feta) and chickens for eggs.
If they are my animals, I can make sure they are treated well, so there won't be any issues with mistreatment.
But that is the future.

[Bo Atkinson]

A long time vegetarian here, aspiring to veganism, except for the burdens of more satisfactory implementations. My blood type is B neg, according to some biases, that i should focus on dairy + meat occasionally. Indeed, my earlier years of vegetarianism forced me to crave fish.... It turned out for me that my primary-lacking nutrient was omega-3. At the time the comprehensive-vegan information was scarce, for a low income rural dweller, (cold climate here). Tastier omega-3 is available at a greater cost, so i ultimately settled on flax seed for a source. It ships in bulk bags at relatively low cost and with a reasonable eco-footprint. However, to absorb it all properly, my approach is to blender-ize it with my smoothies and sauces, (1hp blender-motor here). I use a (one) hand full per day, unless duty calls me to unrelenting hard labors, then more is great. Many benefits accrue here. Another deep need, was to avoid inflammatory foods and to use turmeric spice especially which is powerfully defamatory- hmmm- intending to mean anti-inflammatory. Just sprinkles per day provides great benefit. In case of overly-sudden physical workouts, where one has not gradually worked up to that level. Where one has priorly engaged periods of non-exerting life. Where these two modes interface.... I use up plenty of cats-claw herb. It is a wonder drug really, when used properly for this purpose. Big pharma tried to patent it, ha! In my constitution, a few capsules for such periods of sudden hard labor solves my pains-- Even that bottom of the spine pain! (I won't name it, but urge readers to study herb-ology elsewhere-- In this context, athletic-herbalists may know or write the most relating to muscular exertion. I like Gary Null who has perhaps the most abundant vegan information while he researched his very own marathon expertise. Though i don't do athletics myself). Inflammation is an important term to study in regards to diet-- It especially manifests as all the stresses of life accrue more-so with age. Meats and dairy promote more avenues for inflammation to 'hurt'. Lastly among my pointers today is the de-acidification of diet. Again, meat and dairy tend much more to promote acidification of the body and therefore beg for more balancing factors. Latly, i recommend searching the term "self heating greenhouse", before one builds a green house above the 30th parallel (Most of earthly landmass, really). I find kale can grow all winter and we are trying to grow other cruciferous veggies too. But red russian kale is the all star for adamant simplicity and good health, in the cold.

[blufire]

I want to thank everyone sincerely for all the valuable input. I will respond more too each post later on this evening . . . we have a very big day planned.

Juha thanks for the more detailed info on my blood type (O neg) and the fact that those of us with this blood type have to eat meat and large amounts of certain grains for us will lead to problems mostly related to acidity and inflammation. This is why I included this fact in my “vital statistics”. My Scotch- Irish heritage factors in with the challenge of being vegetarian as well.

For those who may be wondering why a 52 year old woman requires such a high protein and caloric diet (2500 to 4000) let me tell you about what I will be doing today.

Today is cutting and splitting firewood day. We are heating our house entirely with wood and will probably burn 3 to 4 cords of wood this winter. (that’s a bunch) In keeping with my desire to do as little harm to the environment around me and establishing responsible stewardship with Gaia we will only be cutting and burning trees that are already down from storms.

Where I live, which is as far west as you can get in Virginia without hitting Kentucky, the mountains and terrain are extremely rugged and almost straight up and down. To retrieve the fallen trees we will be using a very large tractor, wench and steel cables. Once we get the trees up to a flat area we then use large powerful chainsaws to saw the trees into firewood lengths and then we use a massive hydraulic wood splitter to split the logs into manageable pieces. The equipment we work with is extremely dangerous . . . . one misstep or moment of inattentiveness and someone loses a limb or their life. I cannot in anyway risk feeling lightheaded or weak because I haven’t eaten properly.

So yeah I require food . . . as my Daddy used to say . . . . that sticks to my ribs and puts hair on my chest.

This morning for breakfast we had sausage gravy (sausage from old timer up the hollow who raises a couple hogs a year) big fluffy homemade biscuits, three eggs and pear butter I recently preserved. I put a three pound buffalo roast in the crock pot for dinner tonight, because we will come in from the day famished.

Keep the ideas coming because if I can become a vegetarian then anyone can!!!

I hope this isn’t Mission Impossible and can become Mission Accomplished!!

[shamanseeker]

Naturally, you need more than this with your life style blufire but I find thick cabbage and pumpkin soup very filling and satisfying in the winter. Both cabbage and pumpkin are easy to grow and with a little bit of chilli powder which contrasts with the sweetness of the pumpkin, it is delicious.
Potato and barley soup is very good too and filling. They eat it in the South American Andes. Be careful if you have problems with gluten though because Barley is not gluten-free.

[enfoldedblue]

Chia...Another useful plant to grow:

Though essentially obfuscated throughout many generations, chia would eventually reemerge as a popular superfood identified as being rich in omega-3 fatty acids, protein, antioxidants, and dietary fiber.

One of the primary benefits of chia seeds is their high concentration of essential fatty acids (EFAs), which are up to four times the concentration of other grains. EFAs are important for the respiration of vital organs, yet the human body is unable to manufacture them itself; they must be obtained through diet.

Chia is also touted as having the highest omega-3 content of any plant-based source, containing 64 percent alpha linolenic acid (ALA). Flax, another popular source of ALA, contains 55 percent. The omega-3 to omega-6 ratio is also highly auspicious in chia, representing a healthy balance of 3:2.

Chia is high in complete protein, containing about 23 percent protein per seed. All essential amino acids are present and appropriately balanced within the protein, making it complete and nutritious in and of itself. Packed with essential vitamins and trace minerals, chia is a phenomenal whole food for any diet. They also behave wonderfully when ground and used in gluten-free recipes.

A great antioxidant source, chia provides high levels of chlorogenic acid, caffeic acid, and flavanol glycosides. These are all strong polyphenols that maintain proper function of bodily organs and tissues and that protect against cancer and cardiovascular disease through the removal of damaging free radicals.

High in fiber, chia is known for its easy digestibility. Its layer is a strong source of mucillois soluble fiber which aids in maintaining healthy digestion and assimilation of nutrients. Absorbing more than seven times its weight when placed in water, chia seeds form a gel that, when eaten, produces a physical barrier between carbohydrates and digestive enzymes in the stomach. This process effectively slows the rate at which carbohydrates are converted into blood sugar, rendering chia a great addition to a diabetic diet.
Similarly, chia consumption contributes to maintaining balanced hydration and electrolyte levels within the body, steadying water intake, assimilation, and absorption.

Chia seeds have an amazingly long shelf life when stored in their natural, dry state. Unlike flax seeds which have a highly impenetrable outer shell, requiring them to be ground into a meal that can turn rancid rather quickly, chia seeds can be stored and eaten just as they are for their full benefits.


Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/027035_chia_seeds_health.html#ixzz1eBkHUWBa

[HORIZONS]

The best way I personally know of for converting a meat eater is to have them to kill everything that they themselves eat. When I had to kill my own food I quit eating meat, but I can pull a carrot or pluck some fruit with no problem. There is something about an animal looking you in the eye in total fear, as it tries to get away from you screaming for its life, that has a powerful effect. Remember the movie Powder? Well I can attest that that works for all animals, not just deer. Make a connection to an animal - kill it - then try to eat it! If that doesn't work maybe ascension will, or being supper for ET ;)

[WhiteFeather]

Blufire and Lord Sidious are both on the path to Vegetarianism hopefully. WoW.....Now That's Alright!!!!!

[ThePythonicCow]

Chia seeds have an amazingly long shelf life when stored in their natural, dry state. Unlike flax seeds which have a highly impenetrable outer shell, requiring them to be ground into a meal that can turn rancid rather quickly, chia seeds can be stored and eaten just as they are for their full benefits.
I have no way to measure this, but I recall reading once something I suspect is accurate: chia seeds are better absorbed if cracked before consuming. I use an old burr coffee grinder on coarse setting on my chia seeds just before consuming them, if I can. It seems to crack each seed into 2 or 3 parts (chia seeds are already quite small to start with.)

[Lord Sidious]

Blufire and Lord Sidious are both on the path to Vegetarianism hopefully. WoW.....Now That's Alright!!!!!

I am happy with it, let me tell you.
I had someone eat chicken in front of me last night and I wasn't even tempted, even though I love chicken.

[WhiteFeather]

You go Me Lord, You Can Do It, and then you can evolve/metamorphosise into a new primitive alien like myself soon. This is where it starts. Look mom no meat!

[mahalall]

Sounds like a nice set up; a couple of thoughts arose

kYMbK4pMYNo

celtic link: hazel nuts-quick growing fuel source for that wood burner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel

[Patrikas]

Blufire and Lord Sidious are both on the path to Vegetarianism hopefully. WoW.....Now That's Alright!!!!!

I am happy with it, let me tell you.
I had someone eat chicken in front of me last night and I wasn't even tempted, even though I love chicken.
Nice to see your looking at Nuggets in a diffrent way :).stay well

[blufire]

Horizons, I have released the life force from many animal’s physical body not only for my food but, as well as, to end their suffering.

I don’t think many even here on PA will understand what I am about to say.

My great grandmother who to me was a “mountain wise woman”, she was also called a “hedge witch”, many here would have called her a female “shaman”. Whatever you want to call her she by far was the most spiritual, gifted, wisdom filled, amazing woman I have ever met . . . . and I have yet to meet anyone who could do the things she did.

She was my teacher as well as my granny and I carry her with me always.

One of the most important life events she taught me was to “release an animal’s spirit”.

I will not go into details because it will disrespect and dishonor the depth of the meaning of such an event.

With the release of another’s soul comes with great responsibility

Granny taught me that with each soul you personally release you will carry its imprint always and even into your next realms.

So she carefully instructed me on the ritual that is involved so that the imprints I carry with me are beautiful and respectful and honoring.

Above all she taught me to first never personally fear death because that is the imprint that will reflect back into my own soul.

I can still remember her asking me, “youngun er ya afeerd of passn' inta the veil?

So yes . . .I have personally “killed” many animals.

And yes I have looked deeply into their eyes and melded with them

And it is not fear that I see.

And is with great respect humbleness and honor that I eat what remains after the soul is released.



Post Thought:

The even vaguely closest example to what I am talking about in the spiritual release of animals’ soul is in the movie Cold Mountain. Jude Law’s character in the movie comes across an ancient looking gypsy woman. She “kills” a young goat to feed and heal him. Watch it . . . . you will get somewhat of an understanding what I’m trying to say. This old woman reminded me very much of my granny.

[DNA]

I don't know Bluefire, apparently vegans are endowed with super powers, maybe it could help out with all that hard work. :)
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqqGZBRBLcM
.
.
But beware,,,,,if you are caught commiting veganity violations,,,,the vegan police will come and take your vegan powers away. :)
.
.
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLpCZ8g5uK8&feature=relmfu

[karelia]

My first question would be why do you want to be a vegetarian? I didn't see a reason in your original post.

I'm only a few years younger than you. I grew up in Northern Europe, Germany to be precise. In those days, it was normal for most families to live on vegetables and potatoes/grain from Monday to Thursday, fish on Friday, soup on Saturday, and meat roast with vegetables and potatoes on Sunday. The exception were those who worked physically hard; they would have meat perhaps three times a week.

When we came here to the US the first time, in late 1997, we were shocked at the sizes of meals in restaurants. One plate could easily feed a family of three in Europe, and us Europeans were by no means starving or undernourished.

I've been living the vegetarian way for a number of years. My daughter, at six months old, taught me to simply go by heart, and my heart then said no to meat, so I followed that path, at the time with no thinking about grocery stores, local foods, or the like. That worry came later, and I tried ever since to incorporate new learnings into my lifestyle, such as buying local, staying away from corporations, buying directly from farms, growing food on the balcony, etc.

More recently, I realised why I don't eat meat: I do not want to be responsible for any death, and each time I would eat meat, I would be responsible for an animal's death. But that's me. I have one take on it, and a hundred others will have a hundred other takes on it.

Which brings me to my initial question: why are you asking that question? Do you want to be vegetarian? If so, why? Is it a spiritual issue? Is it a practical one? If so, have you thought about drying beef into jerky? You can chew on it all winter long; it won't lose its flavor or potency.

[blufire]

Not yet my friend. The point of this thread is for you to convert me. . . . . . :p



Blufire and Lord Sidious are both on the path to Vegetarianism hopefully. WoW.....Now That's Alright!!!!!

[blufire]

karelia, You didn’t see a reason on why I want to maybe become a vegetarian because this is not the reason for my thread. The point or reason is for you to CONVERT to being a vegetarian.

I tried to carefully outline who I am (physically) and my lifestyle and my goals. The question I put to PA is how someone like me would be able to convert and maintain a vegetarian lifestyle.

It is interesting to me that if the highly charged emotional reasons for being vegan, vegetarian or raw food diet is removed the discussion pretty much stops. I’m curious why members who generally come into similar threads (jagman’s threads comes to mind) have not entered into the discussion or added valuable input.

I have entered a new phase or chapter in my life in where I am diligently trying to implement what I have learned on PA and in my own personal growth. This requires deep reorganizing of the foundation my entire way of life.

I have taken deep to heart many of Bill’s testimonials (and others) on what we have done as a species to our planet and our responsibility of doing our part to clean it up. It will take generations, but we have to start somewhere.

I cannot change entire corporations, governments or giant slow moving massive century old agendas. But I CAN start with ME and my immediate environment and responsibilities. I can carefully tear apart every seam of my last 52 years and make a new pattern that perhaps the next generations can successfully follow.

And so one of those very important seams is . . . . how do I responsibly feed myself and those who I am and will be responsible for.

Warning what I am about to say is going to raise a few hackles (I apologize . . . . again)

To me . . . basing being a vegetarian or vegan largely or solely on the idea that you cannot emotionally deal with the killing of animals is one dimensional, selfish and shallow.

I understand and respect those who are vegetarian because they feel healthier with this type of diet. Or those who eat a vegetarian diet for a period of time for cleansing and a “rebooting” of their body systems (surprise I AM one of these people)

In my quest to build a sustainable and healthy foundation for responsible eating I have to take into consideration some of these thoughts:

• How many miles has my food traveled??? Am I supporting (vicariously or directly) the massive fossil fuel depletion and all that encompasses using fossil fuels?
• How do I work within the boundaries or parameters of where I live and seasonal, continental and regional eating only? Which I feel is very important. We adapt to where we live. Our body systems align and balance with our latitude, longitude, weather, and seasons. I feel it is vital to our well being and health that we only eat what is capable of being grown or wild crafted within these my area and environment.
• Are we truly “evolved”, as a species, to the point where all of us or many of us are no longer omnivores?
• In covering all the possible scenarios what if I do not have electricity or ways to refrigerate or freeze food? Which this is already a fact in a very large portion of the world. How do I feed myself and those around me through the winter months without eating meat for proper nutrition and health? And within this same thought if one can only achieve higher levels of consciousness or higher frequency or travel or be allowed into the next dimensions if they are only vegan or vegetarian then MOST of the world population ain’t gonna make it. So how can this be Truth?

Thank you truly for everyone who has contributed I would really like to keep this rolling but it seems either very few or interested or perhaps befuddled with what to say within the framework I have put forth. We will see.

[Lettherebelight]

Don't worry, friend Blufire, our hackles don't raise so easily:)

It may surprise you to know that I, and probably a number of others here at Avalon, knew you were not really interested in becoming a vegetarian. And that's most likely the reason why certain members have not posted here, rather than an emotionally based reason. We had the good manners not to question your motives. I (we?) still wish you well in your endeavours!!

And, fwiw, I am a vegetarian for deep, spiritual reasons, not sentimental emotion. Let's not confuse the two.
If I was starving, I would do the needful. But I thank the Lord that I live in a place where this is not necessary (North Pole, desert, etc)

I, too, liked the characters of the movie, Cold Mountain, particularly Rene Zelleweger's.

Like i said earlier, Blufire, I admire what you are trying to do. I wish you every success. :hug:

[modwiz]

Don't worry, friend Blufire, our hackles don't raise so easily:)

It may surprise you to know that I, and probably a number of others here at Avalon, knew you were not really interested in becoming a vegetarian. And that's most likely the reason why certain members have not posted here, rather than an emotionally based reason. We had the good manners not to question your motives. I (we?) still wish you well in your endeavours!!

And, fwiw, I am a vegetarian for deep, spiritual reasons, not sentimental emotion. Let's not confuse the two.
If I was starving, I would do the needful. But I thank the Lord that I live in a place where this is not necessary (North Pole, desert, etc)

Like i said earlier, Blufire, I admire what you are trying to do. I wish you every success. :hug:

Amen to that.

[shamanseeker]

Dear Blufire,
I am sorry that you have little respect for vegetarians because they are highly-charged emotionally. I would suggest that we change the words 'highly-charged emotionally' with compassion. I do not believe any more in the Judaeo-Christian doctrine that we have 'dominion' over the Earth and have a God-given right to kill other species on the planet. I do not agree that they sacrifice themselves willingly for our good.
We could give all sorts of academic reasons as to why the Earth would be better off if we became vegetarians but you would be able to give equally adequate counter arguments to the contrary and I'm sure you were aware of that when you posted this thread.
I think a lot of people in the world are evolving to the stage where they don't want to kill and consume other species in order to survive. A lot of meat-eaters take umbrage at this and are equally emotional in their over-reaction to suggestions that we don't eat meat (I'm not talking about you here but others, especially hunters who in my opinion are also offended because for them it is a very macho thing to do and as such feel their 'manhood' is threatened). Things are starting to change now but in the past vegetarians came in for a lot of hack.
The point is, that this is not an academic argument but something that a lot of people are evolving towards - a life style in which they are not harming another species in order to survive. If someone wants to become a vegetarian, they will become one without worrying about the consequences.
Regards

[blufire]

One reason I do not like communicating through forums or avenues where we cannot see one another or “hear” each others emotion, and most importantly “feel” one another’s energy or spirit.

Lettherebelight, Modwiz and shamanseeker and others . . . . please read more thoroughly what I have passionately tried to say.

To judge that my motive was some how subversive or deceptive does raise my hackles a bit.

Did you really “hear” what I said?? Please look more deeply past the usual, superficial debate, disagreement or whatever reason we fall into when this topic comes up

I truly was trying to knock us out of the same unproductive rut.

Is vegan, vegetarian or raw food diet viable under the parameters I have posted??? I don’t know . . . . pragmatically I don’t think so . . . and it doesn’t look like we can even have a thought provoking, possible foundational reorganization and/or discusiion of those ideas.

Does this mean if we were to come to another additional way of thinking of the way we eat that you would have to embrace that way?? NO It is simply another option that may BEGIN to get us OUT OF THIS MESS.WE GLOBALLY HAVE CREATED.

I do respect and will value and will always validate people who choosen a vegetarian lifestyle if it is done with the same toward meat eaters. . . . . and of all who respond to this issue (imho) modwiz you come the closest to this.

We are supposedly a community filled with star people, indigos, crystals, rainbows, shaman, druids, hybrids, travelers, dimension jumpers, astral projecting, OBE’s, enlightened . . . . really???? AND I mean REALLY??? . . . . then why is it we sound just like EVERYBODY ELSE. I don’t see the difference . . . . .

Shamanseeker . . . can we at least explore new ways to approach this subject and feel I have tried to put forth some possibilities Can we at least as a more deep thinking group even TRY??? I don’t know it does not appear so.

Will we ever get past all the usual “academic pontification”, “Youtube throwing”, “cut and pasting”, “taking out of context drivel”?? I don’t know and it doesn’t’ appear so.

Please read again first my post #49 If you truly hear both what I have said and more importantly what I have not said (read between the lines and listen with your spirit) you will begin to somewhat get a clue of who I am. If you can’t understand what I have clearly “said” in this post then you are not at the place where you will ever hear me. And this in itself is a really big hint.

Then read post #53 is there any validity at all in my words and the direction I am taking my own life. Can you hear me at all . . . .

Can we ever get past as supposedly a wiser, deeper thinking, new path creating group, the same wore out, me me me, band wagon(s) . . . . I don’t know . . . . it doesn’t appear so . . . .and this truly and very deeply grieves me . . .

[Lord Sidious]

It is indeed very easy to mistake what one says and miss what one means in text on the net.
Been there, done that, president of the club.
Welcome to my nightmare.
Go away Alice. :eek:

[WhiteFeather]

My first question would be why do you want to be a vegetarian? I didn't see a reason in your original post.

I'm only a few years younger than you. I grew up in Northern Europe, Germany to be precise. In those days, it was normal for most families to live on vegetables and potatoes/grain from Monday to Thursday, fish on Friday, soup on Saturday, and meat roast with vegetables and potatoes on Sunday. The exception were those who worked physically hard; they would have meat perhaps three times a week.

When we came here to the US the first time, in late 1997, we were shocked at the sizes of meals in restaurants. One plate could easily feed a family of three in Europe, and us Europeans were by no means starving or undernourished.

I've been living the vegetarian way for a number of years. My daughter, at six months old, taught me to simply go by heart, and my heart then said no to meat, so I followed that path, at the time with no thinking about grocery stores, local foods, or the like. That worry came later, and I tried ever since to incorporate new learnings into my lifestyle, such as buying local, staying away from corporations, buying directly from farms, growing food on the balcony, etc.

More recently, I realised why I don't eat meat: I do not want to be responsible for any death, and each time I would eat meat, I would be responsible for an animal's death. But that's me. I have one take on it, and a hundred others will have a hundred other takes on it.

Which brings me to my initial question: why are you asking that question? Do you want to be vegetarian? If so, why? Is it a spiritual issue? Is it a practical one? If so, have you thought about drying beef into jerky? You can chew on it all winter long; it won't lose its flavor or potency.

Great Post!...... Namaste.....My recent change to vegetarianism around 2 years ago, coincides with The Law Of One as Well, and thus i feel that it is enhancing/advancing my spiritual growth, if you will.

[shamanseeker]

Dear Blufire,

Why are you so upset? If people do not want to answer you the way you expect to be answered, there is probably a reason.

You wrote: "Shamanseeker . . . can we at least explore new ways to approach this subject and feel I have tried to put forth some possibilities Can we at least as a more deep thinking group even TRY??? I don’t know it does not appear so."

I explained why it is useless in my opinion to argue about this on an academic level. Because I write this, do think I am shallow thinking and with 'TRY' do you think I am unable to make an effort?

You wrote: "Will we ever get past all the usual “academic pontification”, “Youtube throwing”, “cut and pasting”, “taking out of context drivel”?? I don’t know and it doesn’t’ appear so."

Not only are you contradicting yourself here, I think you are the one who is getting a little too emotional, frustrated and confused not us and you are certainly sounding very patronizing. Perhaps, you should listen more to other people and not assume that they have lower I.Q.s than you do just because they disagree or decide to face questions differently.

You wrote: "Can we ever get past as supposedly a wiser, deeper thinking, new path creating group, the same wore out, me me me, band wagon(s) . . . . I don’t know . . . . it doesn’t appear so . . . .and this truly and very deeply grieves me . . ."

Do you think you are more intelligent than we are? Just because we do not know what you want us to write?

[Lettherebelight]

Hi, Blufire. I don't think you were being subversive or deceptive. I hear your message and your passionate desire for a better world, based on natural living in a localized way.

I think it is a noble quest.

I myself am an advocate of simple living and high thinking based on agriculture and cow protection. I feel, if we love and respect cows as our 'Mother', treat them as they deserve, then the cows will be peaceful and happy, and we humans can have enough protein and calories. It cannot be denied that cows are horrribly mistreated in the dairy industry, but there is a better way. I realise a lot of vegan folk would disagree. I
support them fully in their high ideals.

Your understanding that you have learned from your teacher (Granny) is so true, that each living being has a right to live its life, and if and when you take that life, you take it seriously, with thanks.
It is difficult for me to explain how I can hold an opposing viewpoint, yet understand another.

I agree that it is difficult to express ourselves completely on a forum. Sometimes it's hard to be clear even when face to face! Our thoughts are how we really speak.

But I think we can all agree that we are all working in our own way to make the world a better place. All these points of view are necessary, and have a rightful place in the evolution of consciousness that is now happenning on this planet.

[blufire]

Thank you shamanseeker . . . . I do need to cool off a bit and reconnect.

I will say though you seem to still be only trying to defend your own stand . . . and yes maybe I am too.

Can you validate anything at all in my posts or to you is it all drivel?



Dear Blufire,

Why are you so upset? If people do not want to answer you the way you expect to be answered, there is probably a reason.

You wrote: "Shamanseeker . . . can we at least explore new ways to approach this subject and feel I have tried to put forth some possibilities Can we at least as a more deep thinking group even TRY??? I don’t know it does not appear so."

I explained why it is useless in my opinion to argue about this on an academic level. Because I write this, do think I am shallow thinking and with 'TRY' do you think I am unable to make an effort?

You wrote: "Will we ever get past all the usual “academic pontification”, “Youtube throwing”, “cut and pasting”, “taking out of context drivel”?? I don’t know and it doesn’t’ appear so."

I think you are the one who is getting a little too emotional, frustrated and confused not us and you are certainly sounding very patronizing. Perhaps, you should listen more to other people and not assume that they have lower I.Q.s than you do just because they disagree or decide to face questions differently.

You wrote: "Can we ever get past as supposedly a wiser, deeper thinking, new path creating group, the same wore out, me me me, band wagon(s) . . . . I don’t know . . . . it doesn’t appear so . . . .and this truly and very deeply grieves me . . ."

Do you think you are more intelligent than we are? Just because we do not know what you want us to write?

[shamanseeker]

Dear Blufire,
I did not say that anything in your post was drivel, Bluefire.
Best wishes

[karelia]

karelia, You didn’t see a reason on why I want to maybe become a vegetarian because this is not the reason for my thread. The point or reason is for you to CONVERT to being a vegetarian.

Ah. Thank you for answering this. My opinion is that the only one who can convert you to being a vegetarian is you.


I tried to carefully outline who I am (physically) and my lifestyle and my goals. The question I put to PA is how someone like me would be able to convert and maintain a vegetarian lifestyle.

Yes, I saw that. I see it as an internal question rater than an external one. You seem to be sort of set that it's not possible to be vegetarian considering your lifestyle. It's quite possible that you're right.


It is interesting to me that if the highly charged emotional reasons for being vegan, vegetarian or raw food diet is removed the discussion pretty much stops. I’m curious why members who generally come into similar threads (jagman’s threads comes to mind) have not entered into the discussion or added valuable input.

I have entered a new phase or chapter in my life in where I am diligently trying to implement what I have learned on PA and in my own personal growth. This requires deep reorganizing of the foundation my entire way of life.

And it looks like you're well on your way to success.


I have taken deep to heart many of Bill’s testimonials (and others) on what we have done as a species to our planet and our responsibility of doing our part to clean it up. It will take generations, but we have to start somewhere.

I cannot change entire corporations, governments or giant slow moving massive century old agendas. But I CAN start with ME and my immediate environment and responsibilities. I can carefully tear apart every seam of my last 52 years and make a new pattern that perhaps the next generations can successfully follow.

And if everyone did this, the world would be a much better place already.


And so one of those very important seams is . . . . how do I responsibly feed myself and those who I am and will be responsible for.

Warning what I am about to say is going to raise a few hackles (I apologize . . . . again)

To me . . . basing being a vegetarian or vegan largely or solely on the idea that you cannot emotionally deal with the killing of animals is one dimensional, selfish and shallow.

I understand and respect those who are vegetarian because they feel healthier with this type of diet. Or those who eat a vegetarian diet for a period of time for cleansing and a “rebooting” of their body systems (surprise I AM one of these people)

I dare say you have raised some hackles... It's one thing to not being able to emotionally deal with the killing, but emotions don't really come into it if you simply have no wish to be responsible for any being's death. This kind of responsibility isn't for me, so I don't engage in it. *shrugs*


In my quest to build a sustainable and healthy foundation for responsible eating I have to take into consideration some of these thoughts:

• How many miles has my food traveled??? Am I supporting (vicariously or directly) the massive fossil fuel depletion and all that encompasses using fossil fuels?
• How do I work within the boundaries or parameters of where I live and seasonal, continental and regional eating only? Which I feel is very important. We adapt to where we live. Our body systems align and balance with our latitude, longitude, weather, and seasons. I feel it is vital to our well being and health that we only eat what is capable of being grown or wild crafted within these my area and environment.
• Are we truly “evolved”, as a species, to the point where all of us or many of us are no longer omnivores?
• In covering all the possible scenarios what if I do not have electricity or ways to refrigerate or freeze food? Which this is already a fact in a very large portion of the world. How do I feed myself and those around me through the winter months without eating meat for proper nutrition and health? And within this same thought if one can only achieve higher levels of consciousness or higher frequency or travel or be allowed into the next dimensions if they are only vegan or vegetarian then MOST of the world population ain’t gonna make it. So how can this be Truth?

And being vegetarian or not doesn't really belong to the equation. You've already said you are able to raise your own animals for meat and are fine with butchering them for sustenance. Why do you want to be converted to becoming vegetarian?

For me, it's a purely spiritual thing. Aside from not wanting the responsibility of taking a life, there is the whole energy matter. Our planet is currently ruled by forces that need energetic misery to survive. Any form of killing adds to that misery, which in turn feeds the dark. And the dark is feasting. Look at all the misery they so actively encourage by their various ideas of fooling humanity in grotesque ways. I simply have no desire to contribute to their feasts. I rather thank the plant that gifts me with tomatoes or the potatoes I dig out of the ground, try not to waste anything, and add a little bit of light that way.

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Blufire: "I’m curious why members who generally come into similar threads (jagman’s threads comes to mind) have not entered into the discussion or added valuable input."

Here is why:


Originally posted by Blufire: "To me . . . basing being a vegetarian or vegan largely or solely on the idea that you cannot emotionally deal with the killing of animals is one dimensional, selfish and shallow."

There are quite a few other reasons,but better leave it at that.

All in all a very interesting thread with quite a few enligheting responeses,I appreciate being able to read it.

[Phoenix1304]

I can't remember where I heard it now, but I recall vividly a story about eskimos taking a whale (and I have campaigned vigorously to save the whales over the years), but when the eskimos take it, it feeds an entire village and they use everything, for oil, clothing and so on. There is a relationship of respect between the whale and people, as they see it, the whale agrees to this and it's a fair fight. This is a far cry from giant agribusiness and all it's abuses. It is also in line with macrobiotic eating that I followed for a number of years which, essentially, is about eating in harmony with your environment. This would mean in UK I wouldn't be eating tropical fruits for example. If you only have access to deer and rabbit in your winter time, then maybe it is the perfect food to sustain you in that environment.

However, with the advent of biodomes and the like, it is possible in any climate to have a tropical food garden all year round, not sure where that quite fits into macrobiotics, but it does enable those of us (I'm very much like enfoldedblu in this regard) who feel increasingly grossed out by eating dead animals that we couldn't possibly have killed in the first place, to have an option.

The diets of people before grocery stores and shopping and shipping was local and truly macrobiotic, I have a cellular memory of eating buffalo ribs on the plains of America so I feel kind of genetically inclined to eat meat, but I'm sure there were long periods of berry and vegetable diet in between the great hunts. These days, I could thrive on a diet that excluded meat. I'm still trying after 30 years, I currently allow myself meat once a week. I do love a roast chicken dinner with all the fixins, and may never deny myself that, though it has to be organic.

Vegetarianism may well be a part of our evolution because I feel more and more strongly the need to stop doing what, yes, I do feel emotional about. I woke up the other morning thinking 'how can you not expect your body to rot if you eat dead flesh?', the sanest diet of all seems to be raw food to me, gorillas do pretty well on it, and ultimately I guess, we evolve to fruitarian and breatharian. Though it makes me a little sad, as food, and the art form we have made of it, is one of the great sensual pleasures of life, imo.

So to sum up I guess, I don't feel I need to convert you to anything and I will follow the responses you get with interest.

[Sierra]

What an interesting thread. Aside from the scientific issue whether or not one even *can* subsist healthily on a *local*, *self-sustaining* vegetarian diet in a rural mountainside area with long winters ... there seem to be a few emotional issues. I realize Blufire, you are asking for scientific feedback, but some of the emotional issues may disappear in the future, so I thought I'd mention them.

Within the current paradigm, we have to worry about carbon footprints, hidden costs, damage to environments, damage to the food we eat because of the way food takes weeks to hit markets, therefore does not contain nutrients that only present themselves when fully ripened, cruelty and terror in the slaughter process, the list is endless.

If we had free energy, some of these problems would go away. I believe with free energy, the model of scarcity, leading to cruelty to save pennies, would also leave. I think whoever wanted to, could afford their own land, their own crops, their own animals ... thus destroying for the most part, the current economic paradigm of getting meat to the market that is so inhumane. As well, as more people eat healthy food, those currently locked into the paradigm, will start to support local providers, simply because local providers of healthy, organic, fresh, humanely treated food, will be available, thus further adding to the destruction of the current paradigm of scarcity and cruelty.

The field of science will explode due to freed up resources, and an answer can be had once and for all, is it possible to live a healthy local lifestyle without meat, and every location will know whether or not it is possible, and what outside resources would be necessary for consumption to be healthy. Heck, even vitamin/mineral/nutrient pills may be produced for the local environment, eventually, once people get behind the theory, local produce is the best paradigm.

I also believe, with the prophesied return to human knowledge of the indigenous knowledge, spiritual knowledge, and inner knowing, the ability to kill where needed with grace and honor, will return. And put an end, once and for all, the horror of our mega-farms and slaughter houses.

I'm not propagating either or any position, just saying some of the issues creating conflict, may not exist in the near future. One can hope and imagine and intend it anyway ...

Sierra :wave:

[grannyfranny100]

blufire

Perhaps you are beating yourself up too much about this. Perhaps your body requires animal protein or maybe there is a different sequence of changes that are required in your life and you are focusing on the wrong issue at the moment. Listen to your inner self not to fashionable rhetoric. Peace

[eaglespirit]

Hi Blufire...prompted to post a bit of my own experience here.

And I understand You are busy...because maintaining life in a hollow in the mountains away from it all requires daily diligence.

This may seem 'off topic' but it is 'on topic' for me personally...and may help You if You choose.


Sungazing as a daily meditation process at early sunrise and late sunset will help Your body and mind and soul as a food/energy source:
http://solarhealing.com/process/ ..this link is simply a guide for safety at first, use Your Heart for Your Own visual time build up


Dawn's meditation process will also help Your body and mind and soul as a food/energy source:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34696-Breatharianism-and-living-on-Prana-a-how-to-guide


These processes will lessen Your need for food intake after a few months if done daily. These meditations can go hand in hand.

This will help in the endeavors of sustainment in the natural arena You have chosen.

I Wish You the Best!