Cheating

[pharoah21]

This thread may make me the enemy of the forum.........but I just gotta bring this up.

Why is cheating in a relationship considered wrong? I find that most people who are stuck with one person all their life tend to decline in health at a fast rate (put on weight, lose their passion and enthusiasm for life etc), while those who stay living the single life look so much younger, healthier and more fit.

After a long time in a relationship, most men and women start to develop wandering eyes, the sex between them tends to become quite grey, that's if it still exists at all.

Now I know most of you will try to give me an example of a relationship that is working out perfectly after x amount of decades, but that is probably less than 1% of humanity who will ever encounter the stereo typical soul mate to live the rest of their life with happily ever after.

Why do we get jealous when someone cheats? When you think about this logically, isn't this selfish behaviour? To expect someone MUST give themselves to you and ONLY you, for the rest of their lives........doesn't that sound wrong to you? Even scientists have supposedly found that "cheating" is in our dna, that is, for a man to feel the need to spread his seed to many different women to ensure survival of his lineage.

Now I'm not saying we should all become promiscuous, if you're truly happy in a long term relationship, kudos to you. All I'm saying is I think when we fall in love, the endorphins rush, we have an amazing time with one special person, and then that river eventually starts to dry up for most people, yet some of us force ourselves to stay in that relationship while dehydrating because "we should be together forever"

“They spoil every romance by trying to make it last forever.” - Oscar Wilde

[Unified Serenity]

If you are unhappy in your relationship, and I am speaking in the general "your, you" etc, then leave. My guess is the reason most people cheat are one of three reasons:

1. They are not totally done with their partner, and are not loyal enough to not cheat if given the opportunity
2. They are greedy and don't want to amicably separate and give up some material possession if they leave, so they cheat.
3. They enjoy the rush of sneaking around and having an elicit affair.

The fact is that you can be honest with people and find someone who understands the wandering eye. I have had several friends with open marriages that were very successful. I have never met anyone in a "triad" that stayed together for the long haul, though I am sure that happens. The open marriage's that worked were extremely solid and anyone they "played" with was just that, a toy, a diversion, maybe a cared for diversion, but would never come between the marriage partners. They were happy, and it was not cheating.

Cheating is about honor and lying. It is breaking a sacred vow. If you enter a contract with known rules and guidelines and the other party breaks them, you feel cheated when you catch them. You feel betrayed when you realize the person you trusted broke the contract for X excuse. Most people like monogamy because they feel safer there. Most people are selfish and when they are no longer happy rather than work on the relationship, they just rather take the easy road and cheat. Some are in tough situations like their husband or wife gets injured and is paralyzed and can no longer please them sexually, but they love them still and want to take care of them, and they don't want to hurt them by openly having a sex partner. So, they "cheat". That last one is the hard one. I doubt very many are in that situation. Oh, and the one injured say as paralyzed more than likely knows the partner is having sex with someone, but they appreciate not knowing about it. In fact most partners know when they are being cheated on, but don't want to face it unless they have to.

Cheating is wrong imho. I have to live honestly, and I can tell you not only have I never cheated on my partner, I have never returned to one I left. Once trust is broken it is nearly impossible to rebuild, and leopard's do not change their spots unless there is a miracle involved. People are who they are, and I would rather let them be than change them.

[Star1111]

Phaorah 1

My God............ this is what I have been saying all my life.
However, the title of your thread is cheating.

IMO cheating is nasty, dishonorouble, sly, selfish and deceitful to the other person (and not good for the indiviudal doing it either)

So why not try it this way...............Be honorouble and tell the person that you are with that 1) you don't want to be with them anymore becuase the feeling has gone 2) because you want to be with someone else or 3) ask them if its o.k with them if you can 'be' with other people or 4) whatever the reason is ............ but tell them, don't cheat on them.

Be honest. So much better IMO.

I like your honesty and believe in a lot of what you have said.
x

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

Hi All :)

This jealousy starts with the promise: till death do us apart. And children are learning from their parents and then from their peers not to keep promises. It start with the "small" things. Promissed toy/favor "forgotten" here or there. Cheating is not inherited with DNA. It is a habit passed down the generations. Indigenous people do not cheat each other untill they meet "whites". If somebody doesn't plan to keep the promise he/she should stay single and avoid making promises to his/her partner. Simple IMHO.

Have you read a book Magical Child by Joseph Chilton Pearce?

[Lord Sidious]

I don't know how it is ''most'' but as with everything else on our world, it is corrupted because we are too.

[Unified Serenity]

Good points all, and to the OP I will say I enjoyed your post and do believe you said a lot of truthful things about people. One thing I have always found a bit funny is that many times the cheater gets all bent out of shape if their partner cheats on them. Men are not Bucks, Stallions, Lions or any other animal on that level or sense. Men are spiritual beings first having a physical experience. For me, this starts with a spiritual problem of selfishness that ruins or at least negatively impacts the lives of those whom they care(d).

We do not live in a society set up for communal care for men to abandon their responsibilities and everything will just work out fine. Cheating causes divorce, children lose the cohesive balance of their two parent system. Sometimes they get lucky and their new step father or step mother is very loving and cares for them as a parent, but often they do not get such a step parent. Instead, the new step father /mother looks at them as a problem they have to suffer because they like the child's parent. Our society suffers because of these wounded souls trying to grow up and we watch the cycle repeat. The damage has been vast and is possibly at the core of most of our problems of lawless, lack of conscience, drug abuse, early sexual behavior as girls seek to feel loved by a male and daddy is gone, boys seek to become the man and replace their lousy dad. Cheating is wrong. It would be better for those unable to keep their vows to remain single and pretend they are bucks and stallions, but they lose out and miss the opportunity many of them long for of family, children, and the "happy" home. Pick one or the other, and if you choose to be single, focus on single women to play with and leave the married one's alone. Same for the female cougars out there. Don't have children and enjoy living single, but know you are giving up the whole "family" thing later in life and may regret that.

[RMorgan]

Well, my friend. I thing the word "cheating" is by itself the same as dishonesty, but I guess you have expressed your self mistakenly, so I get your point.

In some places, it´s ok for a man to be married with more than one woman. There was a time as well, in the western civilization, that "cheating" was not considered that wrong, for both sides of the relationship, just take a look at the 20´s.

However, it´s about mutual agreement as well. I know some couples that feel fine about sharing their partners and they seem to live a happy life. Who am I to judge. But if you love a girl who truly believe in monogamy, you´ll have to respect her, and that means you have to be only with her.

For this kind of situation, I like to put myself on the other person´s shoes. Would I like if my girlfriend had sex with another man? I wouldn´t. From the moment I don´t agree with such behavior, I also don´t have the right to have sex with another girl as well. This is called mutual respect.

However, if you find a girl that doesn´t care if you have sex with another girl, and if you don´t care if she have sex with another man, and you love each other anyway, than just go live your live and be happy. For some people, it´s possible to have such relationship.

I am engaged with a girl, you know. I´ve never cheated on her. I love and respect her. I know that, after some time, that passion fades away, but it fades away just to give place to love, which is a much special thing. Love is not a fixed feeling; you discover it with time and that´s why really long relationships are so beautiful sometimes.

I know it sound "cliche", but when you know how to cultivate love, it only grows...

When you truly love someone, you respect her, you protect her from others and from yourself as well.

I am a man. When I see a pretty girl on the streets, I look at her, but that´s all I do. These carnal desires are just an expression of the animal, primitive instinct within. Personally, I´m always working on my personal evolution and that includes, not suppressing these animal desires, but to understand them, to realize how insignificant they are before the magnificence of true, pure love.

I´m not saying I´m right. It´s just my opinion. I perfectly understand and respect your point of view as well.

Cheers,

Raf.

[9eagle9]

I think its mostly the agreements that have been made that have dishonored. If one implicates they are totally into Monogomy and then makes another case further down the road the other partner is naturally going to feel cheated. Some people just naturally expect monogamy without discussing it. They don't even want to discuss it for fear of what they may hear and then just glide along expecting the other person is agreeable to their expecations. Mind, most of what we expect relationships to be like come from TV...lol.

In any relationship no matter what sort open or closed, I think its better to leave things open ended, stop trying to nail each other down in the future by committing each other there. The most one can say is I am happy with you at this moment and time and leave it at that. It's left up to the other to decide if they can cope with that or not. I doubt they can because that is very much a spiritual precept living in the now. People claim they can be agreeable with it, but basically they are just being agreeable to 'get you' and then later on down the road take objection to it.

but its hard to commit to the future and remain honorable. Nor do I personally want to be pressured into making commitments I'm not sure if my life circumstances will allow me to honor. Again I am inclined towards monogamy, actually I'm more inclined towards being single because people want to condition everything and that is a very draining energy.What do you want for the future, where do you want this to go, yammer yammer yammer.. I don't know. If I am actually evolving in spirit now how can I honestly say what I will want in a year's time. Hell I'm not the same person I was a year ago. But I establish right off the bat, not interested in making firm commitments, not interested in marriage, not interested in co habitating.

Oh great wonderful , says they. Well two months down the road they are pushing for the very thing and disgruntled because I'm not agreeing to it. This has nothing to do with monogamy but its essentialy the same mechanism, they feel cheated--they feel as if I am cheating them when there is no other person involved. And whose fault is that. They figured that being in some form of a relationship will change me. Well I'm in piss poor shape if I'm changed that easily!. I think though men tend to take that as a challenge or I'm playing 'hard to get'. Well if they weren't into ownership games then I'd not be so hard to get. I'm a person, not a 'thing' to get.

Very common attitudes. Women do it too but I can only speak from a female perspective.


No one ever knows what sort of person they are going to be in the future. People change, people grow and sometimes people out grow each other. Most relationships I've seen end is because one partner was of an acceleratd spiritual growth and the other not. The relationship didn't fail it was just outgrown. No one failed although its tended to be looked at that way. People tend also to confuse the relationship and mix it up with their self identity. A relationship is really just a platform for people to interact, however it is established. Our work relationships tend to be established at work, the office, the platform to allow the relationship to progress. Those relationships evolve, and end and start over again and we are okay with it but we are not okay with our interpersonal relationships doing the same thing are we.

We use those to prop ourselves up, we become the relationship instead of the relationship being the means to interact. Know what I mean? Like the work relationship we are still individuals , the two giving a part of themselves to form a nearly third entity--the relationship. The relationship is there to keep people from owning each other, its supposed to be a shared place, but people in thier insecurity, want to own the other person. Establish what the relationship should be based on whatever their needs are.

Co dependency though is epidemic amongst humans, the need to have an established partner that lives up to all their expectations in order to feel safe. Establish yourself right off the bat, if the other person isn't listening or just nodding thier heads to placate you and then demonstrating that sort of "I need to establish everything between us now and in the future' then its up to YOU to re-establish things. If they don't like it; they still have choices. And they need to be reminded periodically that your intially established circumstances still remain. It is notoriously hard because they tune that out expecting that you will change in some fashion to accomadate them.

I am essentially a monogomous person but I don't like anyone pushing me for commitments for the future. I can only be committed in the now because I have no idea what sort of person I will be nor will they be in the future to make a commitment from. The now is where everything comes out to determine what one may look forward to in the future...or not. If they are pushy in the now chances are that isn't going to change . People change yes, but i'm leery of people who are not listening to what I'm saying and then amubshing me about it later demanding to know why I'm not planning for the future.

Some relationships are better conducted at a safe distance.

So yeah if someone pushes you for a commitment and then gaily prances off to boff the entire world after they've extracted it from you thats really dick-headed-behavior. But if the non-monagamist has established themselves and their circumstances right off and the other person has issues with it....what can you do. The other person is actually hurting themselves via their own choice. They CHOSE to carry on with you and are hurt by not respecting your essential nature.

Then again there are those people who are really monogamy minded but feel so pressured in a relationship that they percieve their only way to remain free is to wander hither and yon. That's going against their essential nature as well. That's wrong too.Those people find out they really are monogamy minded when they have a relationship without all this pressure and expectation imposed on them.

We are really living in an uncertain time in history all sort of things are occuring metaphysically, physically, psychically ....I mean it would be very hard to establish anything for the future with any degree of certainty.

Some people are really becoming tuned in to a higher sort of intellgience and prefer not being attached as it provides something that a plain old ordinary human relationship lacks. All these conditions that some people require , they carry their own energy, people's conditions carry energy, period, and as some people become more unconditionable they find the energy of some relationships intolerable or only undertaken in small doses. And this a new place in time for those sorts of people where they old paradigms about relationships still rule and their essential selves are going against that established grain.

[Carolin]

The way we feel about something or someone is for the most part created in our minds. Those "new relationship" sensations can be recreated time and time again by what we focus on. Obviously there needs to be a strong foundation and the desire to stay together by both parties. My biggest turn on is that my husband loves me warts and all after 22 years. That and the fact the he knows I would kill him in his sleep if he ever cheated on me is the secret to our marriage.

[The One]

Some religions you can have more than one wife

Sorry but one woman in the house for me is more than enough lol

THE GOOD OLD WANDERING EYE

It all depends on what you want,when i go out sometimes i see men in thier 50's and 60s trying to cop off with much younger women and i think to myself do i want to be doing that at their age.I certainly do not.

Its what you make of life me and my partner are still extremly attractive to each other.We have a great set of friends who are all healthy and happy.

I dont think anyone knows for sure how long things last but if you are happy keep on enjoying the ride

[Amity]

Hi All :)

This jealousy starts with the promise: till death do us apart. And children are learning from their parents and then from their peers not to keep promises. It start with the "small" things. Promissed toy/favor "forgotten" here or there. Cheating is not inherited with DNA. It is a habit passed down the generations. Indigenous people do not cheat each other untill they meet "whites". If somebody doesn't plan to keep the promise he/she should stay single and avoid making promises to his/her partner. Simple IMHO.

Have you read a book Magical Child by Joseph Chilton Pearce?

I don't understand how you can make that statement?

How on earth could you or anyone say that no indigenous people cheated untill they met Whites?

I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous.

[ktlight]

Well, to love someone does not mean that you own them. When you are in a relationship, there are three aspects to it. There is that which is your own life, there is that which is your partner's life and then there is the life that is shared. This does mean that both meet other people at all times and there are after all only men and women to meet.

He is a singer, and I have seen women behave seductively towards him many, many times. If it happened that he fell for the charms of another, he has the right to fall. I would not take it that he cheated me - cheated me out of what?? It would not mean that he does not love me, nor I him.

[WhiteFeather]

Religions Started This Marriage Thingy, and the church is full of corruption. So Is Cheating Allowed Now?

[toothpick]

Hi pharoah21, great thread.
This is a tough one ,i mean, everyone has different ideas about all these different scenarios on cheating, and i think some of the language involved speaks volumes about how these cheating situatons will end up, i mean, come on, with the following applicable words, you could use in any cheating discusson, what other ending could there possibly be, but, despair after using such words, to a loved one, as; cheating, hate, lying, deceit, bitch, I hate you, bastard, committment for life, possession, jealousy, leech, parasite and it can and would get much worse.
Cheating for myself is just plain bad morals, period, but i vaguely remember along time ago i was a young fella, aw, never mind.
We are all human with the frailtes and the needs we all have as humans, but we are also very individually different from one another and that includes monogamous, gay, Fritz the Cat or whatever.
So, i see every situation different, some people like life long committment and some can,t stand it.

[alienHunter]

jealousy is biological and 'cheating' is a manifestation of that imperative violated. I tend to agree with the assessment, though. Call me single, safe, and sane...

[Lord Sidious]

Hi All :)

This jealousy starts with the promise: till death do us apart. And children are learning from their parents and then from their peers not to keep promises. It start with the "small" things. Promissed toy/favor "forgotten" here or there. Cheating is not inherited with DNA. It is a habit passed down the generations. Indigenous people do not cheat each other untill they meet "whites". If somebody doesn't plan to keep the promise he/she should stay single and avoid making promises to his/her partner. Simple IMHO.

Have you read a book Magical Child by Joseph Chilton Pearce?

I don't understand how you can make that statement?

How on earth could you or anyone say that no indigenous people cheated untill they met Whites?

I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous.

White people are the cancer of human history, didn't you get that notice yet? :rolleyes:
Seriously though, why do people attribute things to groups because of their religion/skin colour/whatever?
The bias can come from many sources, hatred, fear, envy, anger but at the end of the day, it is all as real as a mirage is in the desert.
Nuggetry knows no bounds.

[PixieDust]

Phaorah 1

My God............ this is what I have been saying all my life.
However, the title of your thread is cheating.

IMO cheating is nasty, dishonorouble, sly, selfish and deceitful to the other person (and not good for the indiviudal doing it either)

So why not try it this way...............Be honorouble and tell the person that you are with that 1) you don't want to be with them anymore becuase the feeling has gone 2) because you want to be with someone else or 3) ask them if its o.k with them if you can 'be' with other people or 4) whatever the reason is ............ but tell them, don't cheat on them.

Be honest. So much better IMO.

I like your honesty and believe in a lot of what you have said.
x

i agree with you star 100%. Cheating, as in going behind their back, lying and ommissions, is hurtful behavior. In my opinion the sexual act of cheating isnt what would hurt me but the betrayal and lies.

i dont see a problem in having a relationship where outside partners are aloud as long as both parties agree on guidlines and everything. If one is uncomfortable then leave them or come up with another solution. but as star said, be honorable.

in my personal life i am committed and loyal 100%. thats just who i am and i expect my partner to be the same and he knows it and how important it is to me.

[christian]

Falling in love actually means letting carnal lust take the place behind the steering wheel and is not the same thing as truly feeling and expressing absolute undconditional love. Buddha says one should refrain from unhealthy sexual relationships. It's unhealthy to create a child irresponsibly and unhealthy to throw away sperm in my opinion, it is said Lemurians and Egyptians have known about this and knew how to reverse the sperm flow in a process of inner alchemy and there is lots of evidence that Daoists did it and many people do it today to, the main learning source (considering books, the other main source is consciousness of course) are contemporary books from Mantak Chia, from what I found. And then sex is all about subtle ethereal energetics. Promiscous sex feels extraordinary, as does ejaculation and people might become addicted to it, but it's just as healthy as taking any other drug, it gives a quick fix, that is in no comparison to what could be experienced if sexual energy would be used wisely.

We live in a 3d world experiencing duality and a healthy relationship between a man and a woman can be of great benefit, balancing both their energies.

As for your hypothesis, pharoah21, that singles are in better shape, there is a lot of evidence, that suggests the opposite (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=married+people+healthier).

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Hi pharoah21,
why would this thread make you the enemy of the forum?
Look at all the wonderful responses.
I think it´s a great discussion.


What have YOU lost when the other person cheats?
A kept word? A promise? A commitment? A moral value?
Can you ever possess such things?
You can only be.
You can be honest, caring, loving.
You cannot be a word, a promise, a commitment or a moral value.
Yes, you can be a liar and a cheat but then that´s what the other person IS. It has nothing to do with you.

Some time back I read a quote in the Here and Now thread that made me laugh, but found it very poignant.

"It´s all fun and games until the "I" gets poked out. :)

I think it´s only "cheating" if you take "it" personally.

[Carmody]

Bonobo....?

[Sierra]

Hi All :)

This jealousy starts with the promise: till death do us apart. And children are learning from their parents and then from their peers not to keep promises. It start with the "small" things. Promissed toy/favor "forgotten" here or there. Cheating is not inherited with DNA. It is a habit passed down the generations. Indigenous people do not cheat each other untill they meet "whites". If somebody doesn't plan to keep the promise he/she should stay single and avoid making promises to his/her partner. Simple IMHO.

Have you read a book Magical Child by Joseph Chilton Pearce?

I don't understand how you can make that statement?

How on earth could you or anyone say that no indigenous people cheated untill they met Whites?

I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous.

It's because they didn't have the institution of "marriage". There was no rule of monogamy in most indigenous culture. In Eskimo culture, they actively encouraged sexual mixing, to keep the gene pool healthy. In most Indian cultures, on American soil, they did as they wished, moving in and out of relationships. Not until the white man came along, brought in Christian Judgement and alcohol, deadly to the indigenous biology, did things go south.

Some of the spiritual books I read, talk about the different kinds of relationships and how people are "built". The key is to understand yourself, your needs, and to be honest about them. If you are a "union" (union meaning more than one sexual relationship at a time) sort of person, you are going to die in a "monogamous" relationship. As well, if you are a monogamous type, but do not work on the relationship throughout the decades ... what do you expect?

Personally, I think marriage is old paradigm, patriarchal paradigm, a bad paradigm that at the core, does not honor us. It places a burden of limitation, of expectation, of demands, of judgement ... and we can spend our lives trying to fit into a box not of our own making, built by Disney, tradition, and male power. That being said, once we bring down the Patriarchy, this may break open the prison of marriage as it is, and let it be as it should be. Who knows what we'll create ...

Best thing I ever learned about how to make a marriage work, have more fun than you fight. If you can keep the balance on the side of fun ... you can keep going. There is always going to be crap no matter what system you operate under. Crap is pretty much the whole point, how to resolve crap regardless of how you run your life. The monogs deal with boredom and resolution and tension, the unioners deal with loss, letting go and moving on ... That is why we are here, for the crap. The fun is the reward to keep us going ... :becky:

[grapevine]

Certain things are implied when you enter into a relationship and are never discussed at the time (usually) so it's customary to abide by the unspoken rules and, sorry, imo cheating doesn't come into it.

But . . . . if you get married, like it or not, marriage is a contract - a binding contract - made even more binding imo if you then make promises in front of witnesses, not to mention the religious aspect of it (if you are that way inclined). If you break any other kind of contract - like a business contract for instance - then the penalties are dire. Therefore, cheating if you're married is a breach of contract, pure and simple.

Very interesting discussion - things could get lively :)

[Radi]

,,You are in love with someone? Thats wonderful! You may want to go out with her/him and have great time together! Have a lot of fun, and joy. Hug and kiss, and have sex. Thats wonderful!
You are willing to give all great gifts of life : love , light, freedom .. and you are giving them with all your open heart and soul. Unconditional. Without waiting for same answer. You just give best of your energys and emotions, to the person you love, and his happiness is making you very happy. You want to see the smile on his face, and to know that happiness is in his life. And what if she/he is in love with someone else also? And your beloved want to have great time with other person too? She/he want to kiss other person and to have fun, joy and great moments with another human beings ? But she/he wants to see you also and have fun and joy with you too?
Why not? You are giving the freedom she/he wants! You are not egoistic, and you dont want all that greatness of the person you love only for yourself. You are happy that other human being is going to expirience the same greatness with your beloved energies and love , just like you did!
They want you to join a trip to mountains? Or to sea? Together? Yes! Why not? You can take someone else with you too. Someone you love and who love you. And everything is without jealousy and ego feelings, no physical addictions between, and no habbits involved.
When people are happy to see the love in the air around them and around other people. And what is that ,, other people’’ anyway? We are all one! And when your beloved see someone great and fall in love again, dosent mean that she/he dont love you anymore! And you know that! Human heart is so big! It can put the love for the universe and there will be so much space left. We can love many people in same time, be with them and expirience great moments together!
So imagine you and all people you love, and all the people they love, go to a great journey of love and light together as one family of angels! ''

[christian]

Be honorouble and tell the person that you are with that 1) you don't want to be with them anymore becuase the feeling has gone 2) because you want to be with someone else or 3) ask them if its o.k with them if you can 'be' with other people or 4) whatever the reason is ............ but tell them, don't cheat on them.

Speaking generally, the two main reasons why many people don't do this is either lack of guts or because it's more thrilling to do it secretly. - Doing something just because it is thrilling is actually an impulse that drives us all somehow, isn't it, both the light side and the dark side offer that thrill in their own ways...

Anyway pharoah, you get what you give, if you ask yourself how you would like to be treated, take that as a guideline, whatever it is in your case.

[The One]

This thread may make me the enemy of the forum.........but I just gotta bring this up

My friend you are still one of us and we all love ya xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Some of the post i have done have raised a few eyebrows but hey thats what makes us human

[Samsara]

This thread may make me the enemy of the forum.........but I just gotta bring this up.

Why is cheating in a relationship considered wrong? I find that most people who are stuck with one person all their life tend to decline in health at a fast rate (put on weight, lose their passion and enthusiasm for life etc), while those who stay living the single life look so much younger, healthier and more fit.

After a long time in a relationship, most men and women start to develop wandering eyes, the sex between them tends to become quite grey, that's if it still exists at all.

Now I know most of you will try to give me an example of a relationship that is working out perfectly after x amount of decades, but that is probably less than 1% of humanity who will ever encounter the stereo typical soul mate to live the rest of their life with happily ever after.

Why do we get jealous when someone cheats? When you think about this logically, isn't this selfish behaviour? To expect someone MUST give themselves to you and ONLY you, for the rest of their lives........doesn't that sound wrong to you? Even scientists have supposedly found that "cheating" is in our dna, that is, for a man to feel the need to spread his seed to many different women to ensure survival of his lineage.

Now I'm not saying we should all become promiscuous, if you're truly happy in a long term relationship, kudos to you. All I'm saying is I think when we fall in love, the endorphins rush, we have an amazing time with one special person, and then that river eventually starts to dry up for most people, yet some of us force ourselves to stay in that relationship while dehydrating because "we should be together forever"

“They spoil every romance by trying to make it last forever.” - Oscar Wilde

I do not understand how someone can be "stuck" with someone else. If you're not happy, leave. The word "cheating" by itself tells me dishonesty, lies, trickery, that is why I would say it would be wrong. The sexual act is nothing really, it is how you treat that other person you are stuck with that matters. If you are to be stuck, at least be true.

My opinion, but then, what do I know. I'm not a sticky one.

[Lord Sidious]

This thread may make me the enemy of the forum.........but I just gotta bring this up.

Why is cheating in a relationship considered wrong? I find that most people who are stuck with one person all their life tend to decline in health at a fast rate (put on weight, lose their passion and enthusiasm for life etc), while those who stay living the single life look so much younger, healthier and more fit.

After a long time in a relationship, most men and women start to develop wandering eyes, the sex between them tends to become quite grey, that's if it still exists at all.

Now I know most of you will try to give me an example of a relationship that is working out perfectly after x amount of decades, but that is probably less than 1% of humanity who will ever encounter the stereo typical soul mate to live the rest of their life with happily ever after.

Why do we get jealous when someone cheats? When you think about this logically, isn't this selfish behaviour? To expect someone MUST give themselves to you and ONLY you, for the rest of their lives........doesn't that sound wrong to you? Even scientists have supposedly found that "cheating" is in our dna, that is, for a man to feel the need to spread his seed to many different women to ensure survival of his lineage.

Now I'm not saying we should all become promiscuous, if you're truly happy in a long term relationship, kudos to you. All I'm saying is I think when we fall in love, the endorphins rush, we have an amazing time with one special person, and then that river eventually starts to dry up for most people, yet some of us force ourselves to stay in that relationship while dehydrating because "we should be together forever"

“They spoil every romance by trying to make it last forever.” - Oscar Wilde

I do not understand how someone can be "stuck" with someone else. If you're not happy, leave. The word "cheating" by itself tells me dishonesty, lies, trickery, that is why I would say it would be wrong. The sexual act is nothing really, it is how you treat that other person you are stuck with that matters. If you are to be stuck, at least be true.

My opinion, but then, what do I know. I'm not a sticky one.

I disagree, the sexual act is a HUGE deal.
Not only is it the most intimate act possible, there is a merging of the two individuals concerned as they do what they do.
Many religions cover this too, by the way.

[Seikou-Kishi]

Why is cheating in a relationship considered wrong?

"Cheating" really covers a narrow range of things but your post seems to imply that you're thinking of other things. For example, you say people who stay with one person all their life eventually go 'down hill'. The thing is, one needn't stay with one person. If you decide a relationship is going badly for you, you can end the relationship and maybe begin a new one. That's not cheating, that's ending the relationship because it's no longer good for you.

On the other hand, maybe you mean you should be free to sleep with other people but otherwise in a relationship. There are people who prefer open relationships, but in such a relationship, sleeping with another person is not cheating.

Cheating is a betrayal of the person of the relationship. If your relationship is an open one, 'sex on the side' isn't cheating. It only becomes cheating when you go behind that person's back. There is never a need to betray somebody in that way. If your relationship isn't giving you what you want, end it before you dishonour them and yourself by cheating. If your relationship is open and allows (by common consent) sex outside the relationship, that's not cheating. Cheating is a betrayal of trust. Why would you need or want to do that?

[Samsara]

This thread may make me the enemy of the forum.........but I just gotta bring this up.

Why is cheating in a relationship considered wrong? I find that most people who are stuck with one person all their life tend to decline in health at a fast rate (put on weight, lose their passion and enthusiasm for life etc), while those who stay living the single life look so much younger, healthier and more fit.

After a long time in a relationship, most men and women start to develop wandering eyes, the sex between them tends to become quite grey, that's if it still exists at all.

Now I know most of you will try to give me an example of a relationship that is working out perfectly after x amount of decades, but that is probably less than 1% of humanity who will ever encounter the stereo typical soul mate to live the rest of their life with happily ever after.

Why do we get jealous when someone cheats? When you think about this logically, isn't this selfish behaviour? To expect someone MUST give themselves to you and ONLY you, for the rest of their lives........doesn't that sound wrong to you? Even scientists have supposedly found that "cheating" is in our dna, that is, for a man to feel the need to spread his seed to many different women to ensure survival of his lineage.

Now I'm not saying we should all become promiscuous, if you're truly happy in a long term relationship, kudos to you. All I'm saying is I think when we fall in love, the endorphins rush, we have an amazing time with one special person, and then that river eventually starts to dry up for most people, yet some of us force ourselves to stay in that relationship while dehydrating because "we should be together forever"

“They spoil every romance by trying to make it last forever.” - Oscar Wilde

I do not understand how someone can be "stuck" with someone else. If you're not happy, leave. The word "cheating" by itself tells me dishonesty, lies, trickery, that is why I would say it would be wrong. The sexual act is nothing really, it is how you treat that other person you are stuck with that matters. If you are to be stuck, at least be true.

My opinion, but then, what do I know. I'm not a sticky one.

I disagree, the sexual act is a HUGE deal.
Not only is it the most intimate act possible, there is a merging of the two individuals concerned as they do what they do.
Many religions cover this too, by the way.

I probably expressed myself wrongly, so let me explain. I think the injury to the person betrayed will be more from the betrayal itself (dishonesty, lies, trickery) and very little from the infidelity (sexual act). By no means do I believe that sexual intimacy is to be taken lightly.

[Seikou-Kishi]

It's because they didn't have the institution of "marriage". There was no rule of monogamy in most indigenous culture. In Eskimo culture, they actively encouraged sexual mixing, to keep the gene pool healthy. In most Indian cultures, on American soil, they did as they wished, moving in and out of relationships. Not until the white man came along, brought in Christian Judgement and alcohol, deadly to the indigenous biology, did things go south.

No, Sierra, that's just a lack of 'necessary relationship permanence'. Indigenous cultures weren't laissez-faire "oh look, here I am coming home to find my neighbour and my wife en flagrante". 400 years ago, divorce wasn't really a possibility, but just because it is now and people are free to end their relationships, it doesn't mean we live in a cheating-riddled world.

A lack of sexual inhibition is absolutely not the same as cheating. A lack of sexual inhibition may be involved in cheating, but it's not all of it. Cheating is a betrayal of trust upon which the relationship is based. If the relationship doesn't require sexual exclusivity, promiscuousness is not cheating. On the other hand, if the relationship is exclusive/monogamous, sex isn't even necessary for cheating, even if it is the standard form. If indigenous cultures were quite happy to see those in a relationship dissolve their union, it cannot be taken to mean that people could not cheat in those days or that cheating is a by-product of a marital society. Cheating is the betrayal of trust, what form that betrayal takes is relative to the relationship and possible in every culture.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I do not understand. When I am in love, the last thing I want is to cheat. If we are not having much sex or the sex is "gray" then so what? I've got two hands and an imagination. Why would I want to destroy the relationship with anonymous sex? Of course that's just me. I know others are not wired that way. I have some friends who cheat all the time. Well, not friends, people I know. I would not be frends with a cheater, I can't. My one criteria for friendship is integrity.
Maybe that's why I have so few friends...
Course, the ones I have are impeccably honest, helpful, loving and truthful.

[cheez_2806]

I don't understand the real meaning of marriages - is it to pair up two souls in love or what? but I think whatever the meaning of marriage was has been twisted just like the what love is by the mass media. For example cheating - this word is designated to a situation just like other words but whether its wrong or right it comes back to your perspective of it.
my perspective is that I feel cheating not a good thing for two reasons: one is because I still believe truly understanding what love is or maybe the meaning of what it really is like to be "imprinted" on someone is different from what it was or what it is meant to be - so until I understand these I guess I can be in a relationship with someone without the judgements and the so called impulsive act by human emotions...or maybe I wouldn't even call it a relationship until I can fully understand what love is.
Second thing is cheating doesn't feel right is that besides the negative side to it like the feeling of betrayal, selfishness and whatever - the media in movies, drama they also depict cheating as something you shouldn't do but then the storyline goes on to explaining what happened and why the person did it so its feel like they are justifying for the act of cheating and portraying as its something that is normal and will occur in a real relationship. And especially when reports such as cheating is in our DNA feels absurd to me because it feels like again we can't do anything about it - its in our genes we can't help it, it can't be changed and that I feel is crap...

[Lord Sidious]

I probably expressed myself wrongly, so let me explain. I think the injury to the person betrayed will be more from the betrayal itself (dishonesty, lies, trickery) and very little from the infidelity (sexual act). By no means do I believe that sexual intimacy is to be taken lightly.

Aha, ok.
I can let you off this time then.
Just don't let it happen again. :p

[Samsara]

I probably expressed myself wrongly, so let me explain. I think the injury to the person betrayed will be more from the betrayal itself (dishonesty, lies, trickery) and very little from the infidelity (sexual act). By no means do I believe that sexual intimacy is to be taken lightly.

Aha, ok.
I can let you off this time then.
Just don't let it happen again. :p

Fiou... :faint:

I can't promise it won't happen again though. I have language issues...

[Lord Sidious]

Fiou... :faint:

I can't promise it won't happen again though. I have language issues...

Me f**kin too.
But I usually don't give a s**t and just say what the f**k I like.
Oh, wait, you did mean that sort of language, didn't you? :o

[Cjay]

Great post pharoah21. I don't think you could ever make me your enemy because I have an enormous amount of respect for you.

I have wrestled with this question for most of my life. I have never had a partner who did not stray multiple times. Do I think they cheated me? No. Obviously they had needs or desires that I was not fulfilling but none of them could ever say specifically what was missing in our relationship. Perhaps it was the thrill of being intimate with someone for the first time. I can understand that. I have been there too.

Why do some people feel they have to possess another and where does this notion of exclusivity come from? Is it religious indoctrination? Why do some religions accept polygamy and others abhor it. Very often, those who preach exclusivity do not practice it. Aren't we all (or most of us) hypocrites?

Partnering with another makes sense for reproduction. Clearly, in our time, monogomous relationships are seen as the norm but the reality is the opposite.

Very thought provoking post, pharoah21. Thank you.

[Jonfen]

I've been reading this book called The Ethical *censored* after having a string of rather strange relationship circumstances in my life. I think it is a good thing to rethink social programming of any sort, especially when it comes to sex and relationships, as the current modes of thinking seem rather outdated.

http://www.amazon.com/Ethical-****-Practical-Relationships-Adventures/dp/1587613379/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322189345&sr=8-1

[Davidallany]

All I'm saying is I think when we fall in love,
Pharaoh, there is no such a thing as falling in love. Sexual attraction is only a passion, it's not love. passion has symptoms of Love, but it's much lesser vibrations. In fact sexual passions interfer with Love.


isn't this selfish behaviour? To expect someone MUST give themselves to you and ONLY you,
I can't pretend to understand the mind of a Woman, but maybe a woman can clarify this point.

[Davidallany]

Speaking generally, the two main reasons why many people don't do this is either lack of guts or because it's more thrilling to do it secretly. - Doing something just because it is thrilling is actually an impulse that drives us all somehow, isn't it, both the light side and the dark side offer that thrill in their own ways...

Chris, this is what I call surgical understanding.

[Zillah]

Some people are really becoming tuned in to a higher sort of intellgience and prefer not being attached as it provides something that a plain old ordinary human relationship lacks. All these conditions that some people require , they carry their own energy, people's conditions carry energy, period, and as some people become more unconditionable they find the energy of some relationships intolerable or only undertaken in small doses. And this a new place in time for those sorts of people where they old paradigms about relationships still rule and their essential selves are going against that established grain.

Today has been a very challenging day - and this paragraph shot me into an eye-wide synchronicity. You have defined exactly what has happened (or has been happening) to me, and nailed the reason why today my relationship with my Fiancee finally ended.

I dont have much to add at this very moment (altho clear I'm still rather emotional), But I will say thank you for this thread - altho our situation wasnt ended due to cheating, this one post helped me sum up why I felt completely foreign to something I honored and loved for so long -- and am finally able to release and let go of any guilt associated with 'how things should be because of....'

Following YOUR innate voice is key to experiencing the many beautiful blessings that never cease to come while we are here on Earth... and that voice has no laws governing it. Listen to it, even if it kills you - what waits on the other end is something that goes far beyond any beliefs or 'isms' humans and other have made over the years here on our lil planet.

[Laurel]

Cheating is lying. Lying is unacceptable and the truth comes out eventually.
Jealousy is a waste of time and energy. It is a lack of self-confidence and trust.
If you have to cheat or be jealous, something is not right in the relationship.
Whatever choices are made in a relationship, as long as everyone agrees and no one gets physically or emotionally hurt, it's all good.

[Cjay]

None of these comments are directed at anyone specific.

I do not condone infidelity. I do not condemn it either. Infidelity and all of the crazy mixed emotions that surround it are part of being human. They always have and always will occur. It is not necessarily bad. It just is. Why can some people accept it with a shrug while it makes others want to kill the third person, their partner, their kids and themselves? Woah!

I have often heard it said: "It is not what happens but how you react to what happens that is most important."

Why is someone bad if they do not conform with society's or religion's or another individual's concept of being good or loyal? Look at all the negative words and phrases that come up in the context of infidelity. Cheating, sneaky, bad, evil, hurtful, dishonest, dishonorable, disloyal, jealousy, guilt, shame, betrayal, broken trust, broken heart, poor me, etc... and these: "how could (s)he did this to me?" or "it happened to me", sob, grumble, complain. NO, it did not happen TO YOU. (S)he shared something with someone else, not you. You are not a victim. Your ego is bruised.

If your partner shared a meal with another but not you, is that bad? No! Although, I know some intensely jealous people who go into a rage over such trivial things. Time to grow up, me thinks. Is not jealousy a manifestation of envy or insecurity? The sky is not falling. The world is not ending. Get a grip!

A kindly psychologist, in helping me get over a serious depression triggered, in part, by my partner's infidelity, explained there are at least thirteen different types of love. For example, I love your new hair do; I love that song; I love that food; I love that car; I love my spouse; I love my children; I love my job; I love animals; I love life. What is love really? It is all of those things and more. Just because someone you love shares sexual intimacy with another does not mean they don't love you. The universe does not revolve around your precious fragile ego.

The problem really lies in our social programming, the language we use, the way we interpret that language and our expectations, which comes back to ego. Oh poor me.

[Dawn]

I would like to take this discussion down the rabbit hole a bit. How you experience sex depends a lot on how aware you are and at what depth.

When people have sex, they mingle their energies. If orgasm happens during sex, this can be even more so. After a sexual relationship there are nearly always energetic ties that remain between the couple. Any seer or psychic worth their salt can see these attachments, sometimes 20 or 30 years later. They can be removed with focus and intention, however if you are in an ongoing relationship, you will not be able to remove them for more than a short while. Once these energetic ties are formed, there is a sharing of patterns and emotions. That means that if your sexual partner is depressed, you will feel dragged down emotionally, even if you aren't seeing them. So, if you decide to have sex with someone else while you are in a relationship, you are essentially inviting the 3rd person into the relationship.

Even for people who are only aware of the animal lust part of sexuality, an energy bond is still formed. The unaware person is still affected by this bond... whether they know it or not. I was a professional psychic and healer for more than 20 years. During that time I helped many people disconnect energy chords to their old lovers... all of them felt immediate relief and a lightness of spirit. Be aware what you are doing when you choose to have a sacred energetic exchange with another.

In my long life I have realized that much of the time, when there is sexual attraction, there are some kind of non-organic life forms egging it on. These plan to feed on the potential sexual energy that is generated during union. I have had the interesting experience of being in a class with 200 other adults who remained in sacred space while exploring the subject of human sexual energy. The result of these classes was that I saw, and eliminated, my relationship with one or more of these entities. I had been infected by the man who molested me as a child. Any time you choose to have sex with someone you exchange a lot more than bodily fluids... It is important to be aware of the spiritual clarity of your partner.

I am not judging any of the posts here, however I would like to dangle a carrot for some of you. Are you aware that true sexual union can be sacred beyond your wildest expectations? It is completely possible (I have had personal experience) to have an orgasm which lasts many many hours without stopping. In this type of sex, life force energy can be used to rejuvenate the bodies of the lovers, and to achieve high spiritual states.

This type of sacred sexual union is not really possible without deep trust, and that takes time to build up in a relationship. If you desire more than one partner, it is important that you do nothing to break this trust. That is difficult considering that most people are unaware of their deep unconscious conditioning until it is challenged. This means that your partner may think it is OK for you to have intimate energy exchange with another, until you do and they find themselves deeply wounded.

If your sexual relationship has gone gray, perhaps you are not stepping up to the next level of spirituality and awareness which allows you to move into a new frequency. PS: I suggest any of Mantak Chia's books.

[Lisab]

Thankyou Dawn I will check that author out definately. Id rather be on my own (as I am) than without true union.

[Star1111]

Phaorah 1

My God............ this is what I have been saying all my life.
However, the title of your thread is cheating.

IMO cheating is nasty, dishonorouble, sly, selfish and deceitful to the other person (and not good for the indiviudal doing it either)

So why not try it this way...............Be honorouble and tell the person that you are with that 1) you don't want to be with them anymore becuase the feeling has gone 2) because you want to be with someone else or 3) ask them if its o.k with them if you can 'be' with other people or 4) whatever the reason is ............ but tell them, don't cheat on them.

Be honest. So much better IMO.

I like your honesty and believe in a lot of what you have said.
x

i agree with you star 100%. Cheating, as in going behind their back, lying and ommissions, is hurtful behavior. In my opinion the sexual act of cheating isnt what would hurt me but the betrayal and lies.

i dont see a problem in having a relationship where outside partners are aloud as long as both parties agree on guidlines and everything. If one is uncomfortable then leave them or come up with another solution. but as star said, be honorable.

in my personal life i am committed and loyal 100%. thats just who i am and i expect my partner to be the same and he knows it and how important it is to me.

Thank you PixieDust

Its just something that I have felt all my life. Integrity, honesty and loyalty are very important values to me.
For me, I couldn't be with someone who was dishonorouble.

I agree with what you said completely "the sexual act of cheating isnt what would hurt me but the betrayal and lies". Absolutely spot on.

I have a 'situation' at the moment (so this thread is timely, and perhaps a sign) :). There's a guy at work, good looking, funny, seems very nice................. and if he werent MARRIED I would possibily be interested.

He is clearly very attracted to me,(and that's not me being vain) I see this and I do NOT encourage it. However, I'm just waiting for him to say something that is without doubt 'an intention to "take things further" and my answer will be ..................

WHAT WOULD YOUR WIFE THINK ABOUT THAT !!

If he is doing it to her now and I was the type of person who did recipricate his attention then eventually he would do it to me.............. leopards,spots and all that.

I dont know, or care whether he is having marriage problems or "his wife doesn't understand him". If he wants OUT to pursue me or someone else then TELL HER that!!

Oh dear, the complexities of life

[Star1111]

Fiou... :faint:

I can't promise it won't happen again though. I have language issues...

Me f**kin too.
But I usually don't give a s**t and just say what the f**k I like.
Oh, wait, you did mean that sort of language, didn't you? :o

Everyone in the office is looking at me now as I have just burst out laughing at your post Lord Sid.
I have tears now - thank you so much, that was a great laugh!! :)

[DNA]

I would like to take this discussion down the rabbit hole a bit. How you experience sex depends a lot on how aware you are and at what depth.

When people have sex, they mingle their energies. If orgasm happens during sex, this can be even more so. After a sexual relationship there are nearly always energetic ties that remain between the couple. Any seer or psychic worth their salt can see these attachments, sometimes 20 or 30 years later. .

I hear you in terms of sex creating spider webs of energy that keep us connected to folks regardless of what happens afterwards. Those spider webs can be individual strands, or finely woven latices, depending on the frequency, intensity and emotional connectedness the participants granted one another.
I have heard such bonds ussually last seven years from the last time such a union was joined.
Thus the old wives tale of "the seven year itch".

Apparently, something causes an "itch" in terms of the connection healing and or atrophying, and for some reason, the "itch" is signifying a bodily craving for this connection to be replaced.
Very wierd huh?



In my long life I have realized that much of the time, when there is sexual attraction, there are some kind of non-organic life forms egging it on. These plan to feed on the potential sexual energy that is generated during union.


We have discussed this before, you know I agree here 100%. Sex is possibly the most powerfull expulsion of energy in all of human kind, and it does seem like there are forces warming their hands in front of the fire.


If your sexual relationship has gone gray, perhaps you are not stepping up to the next level of spirituality and awareness which allows you to move into a new frequency. PS: I suggest any of Mantak Chia's books.
You know I've comented before, that some of your vocabulary was telling in that I'd thought you had read the Mantak Chia books, but you never gave me the gratification of agreeing to this.
Sorry to make a note of it, but it's always nice getting confirmation. :)


You know, confirmation is really what a relationship is all about.
A relationship is living your life with some one. Having a person who can validate your existance. Some one who can say, "yea, I was there, I remember that".
Someone who validates you, and who is loyal to you.
If you are lucky enough to get that, I would not suggest looking else where. :)

[Ria]

Dawn, I hope more people take note of what you have said I completely concur with your findings.
the implications go deep and so little is understood.

[Seikou-Kishi]

Why is someone bad if they do not conform with society's or religion's or another individual's concept of being good or loyal? Look at all the negative words and phrases that come up in the context of infidelity. Cheating, sneaky, bad, evil, hurtful, dishonest, dishonorable, disloyal, jealousy, guilt, shame, betrayal, broken trust, broken heart, poor me, etc... and these: "how could (s)he did this to me?" or "it happened to me", sob, grumble, complain. NO, it did not happen TO YOU. (S)he shared something with someone else, not you. You are not a victim. Your ego is bruised.

Relationships are based on agreement. Two people agree to treat each other with respect and consideration. Cheating by definition ruins that consideration. To say "Oh, stop getting on at me for cheating, it's just your ego that's bruised" is a cynical and utterly selfish abdication of responsibility.

[Second Son]

The term "polyamourism" is big news nowadays... at least in left-leaning, counter-cultured, southern Vermont. I am a pretty logical minded guy, and the hard numbers speak for themselves. I believe the divorce rate is extremely high, with half of all nuptuals ending in divorce. I cannot think of a couple I associate with who are happily married and on their FIRST marriage. Most couple who fall in love and live together in commited realationship, without benefit of church or vows, seem to suffer the same fate.

I am newly single, and will be doing some very indepth research into this phenomenon of polyamourism. As has been stated in this thread many times, with complete honesty and openness, the term "cheating" no longer applies. I believe that it is religion, and its subliminal messages which permeate even the most secular of societies, which are responsible for the high divorce rate. We are told we dare not have multiple partners, sex out of wedlock, etc. The result? Marriages which happen all too fast, before the couple really has established compatibility. I need to state here that I believe that even in committed, live-in relationships which circumvent church, the churches' message still has an adverse effect, because:

We are encouraged to commit early, bcause to just "experiment" without dedicating all of your being to this new relashionship is a sin.

We are told by the church that adultery is a cardinal sin, andit is given such weight, that people who might otherwise forgive and forget are told that due to the severity of the transgression, perhaps splitting up would be a better choice.

I am quite sure there will be much disagreement, but this is what I have found, and unlike some, I will actually change my walk accordingly. I'm not sure exactly how this multiple partner lifestlye will work out, but it can't possibly be any worse than the currently accepted model, with its 50% fail rate. I think it is very telling, that in a society which would change anything else which displayed such a poor track record, the sactity of marriage is still held up as something we should all asprire to. If there was a 50% graduation rate for highschool, WE WOULD MAKE SOME PROFOUND CHANGES, ASAP, but then, education is regarded as a purely secular engagemnet, and committed relationship has been co-opted by the very same church which has given us the ostensibly celibate priest who seems to be just as sexually dysfuctional as the paradigm he sanctions with his words: "I now pronounce you man and wife".

[eaglespirit]

Cheating...Deception

Young or Old Soul, no matter...Face the Mirror and Feel the Energy Created!

[Unified Serenity]

The term "polyamourism" is big news nowadays... at least in left-leaning, counter-cultured, southern Vermont. I am a pretty logical minded guy, and the hard numbers speak for themselves. I believe the divorce rate is extremely high, with half of all nuptuals ending in divorce. I cannot think of a couple I associate with who are happily married and on their FIRST marriage. Most couple who fall in love and live together in commited realationship, without benefit of church or vows, seem to suffer the same fate.

I am newly single, and will be doing some very indepth research into this phenomenon of polyamourism. As has been stated in this thread many times, with complete honesty and openness, the term "cheating" no longer applies. I believe that it is religion, and its subliminal messages which permeate even the most secular of societies, which are responsible for the high divorce rate. We are told we dare not have multiple partners, sex out of wedlock, etc. The result? Marriages which happen all too fast, before the couple really has established compatibility. I need to state here that I believe that even in committed, live-in relationships which circumvent church, the churches' message still has an adverse effect, because:

We are encouraged to commit early, bcause to just "experiment" without dedicating all of your being to this new relashionship is a sin.

We are told by the church that adultery is a cardinal sin, andit is given such weight, that people who might otherwise forgive and forget are told that due to the severity of the transgression, perhaps splitting up would be a better choice.

I am quite sure there will be much disagreement, but this is what I have found, and unlike some, I will actually change my walk accordingly. I'm not sure exactly how this multiple partner lifestlye will work out, but it can't possibly be any worse than the currently accepted model, with its 50% fail rate. I think it is very telling, that in a society which would change anything else which displayed such a poor track record, the sactity of marriage is still held up as something we should all asprire to. If there was a 50% graduation rate for highschool, WE WOULD MAKE SOME PROFOUND CHANGES, ASAP, but then, education is regarded as a purely secular engagemnet, and committed relationship has been co-opted by the very same church which has given us the ostensibly celibate priest who seems to be just as sexually dysfuctional as the paradigm he sanctions with his words: "I now pronounce you man and wife".


You raise some interesting points about religion being part of the problem and of course it may be. I think another part of the problem is we are told from an early age that ethics / morals are situational. We are told sex is good and just enjoy yourself. There is no sense of being responsible or making oneself ready for sex. Children are bombarded with sexual programming and subliminal messages along with the rest of the population. What is it about sex that feeds the agenda of the elites? I've come across something recently that really blows the lid right off of the whole religion thing and basically says it is by our sexual coupling that we feed the lower gods / fallen angels. That we were not given permission by the creator to procreate, but the Anunaki stepped in and changed our DNA. There is a whole thread on this and you can go there to study it if you want to.

Here is my point. Most marriages are destroyed because the people marry when they are not ready. They make knee jerk decisions outside of community and family and just get married. They are not ready financially to marry nor emotionally. Most marriages end because of financial difficulty and also incompatibility for the short term ones. Most longer term marriages end over financial issues or STS situations. There was a time that a man could not marry until he had a home of his own. He had a means to take care of his family and this gave security to him and the bride for the safety of herself and her children.

We are no longer respecters of our parents. So what if mom and dad don't like our choice. We leap, swim, play and then throw away. The aftermath is not healthy spiritually and the children pay the highest price. The fruit of this behavior is evident all around us. The rate of divorce is commensurate with the lascivious lifestyle preached. Look at those lifestyles like the Amish and more "old fashioned" communities and you do not see this problem. Sex is no the be all and end all and the young are taught self control and sound morals to build a happy life. They tend to marry wisely and stay together.

[Lord Sidious]

The term "polyamourism" is big news nowadays... at least in left-leaning, counter-cultured, southern Vermont. I am a pretty logical minded guy, and the hard numbers speak for themselves. I believe the divorce rate is extremely high, with half of all nuptuals ending in divorce. I cannot think of a couple I associate with who are happily married and on their FIRST marriage. Most couple who fall in love and live together in commited realationship, without benefit of church or vows, seem to suffer the same fate.

I am newly single, and will be doing some very indepth research into this phenomenon of polyamourism. As has been stated in this thread many times, with complete honesty and openness, the term "cheating" no longer applies. I believe that it is religion, and its subliminal messages which permeate even the most secular of societies, which are responsible for the high divorce rate. We are told we dare not have multiple partners, sex out of wedlock, etc. The result? Marriages which happen all too fast, before the couple really has established compatibility. I need to state here that I believe that even in committed, live-in relationships which circumvent church, the churches' message still has an adverse effect, because:

We are encouraged to commit early, bcause to just "experiment" without dedicating all of your being to this new relashionship is a sin.

We are told by the church that adultery is a cardinal sin, andit is given such weight, that people who might otherwise forgive and forget are told that due to the severity of the transgression, perhaps splitting up would be a better choice.

I am quite sure there will be much disagreement, but this is what I have found, and unlike some, I will actually change my walk accordingly. I'm not sure exactly how this multiple partner lifestlye will work out, but it can't possibly be any worse than the currently accepted model, with its 50% fail rate. I think it is very telling, that in a society which would change anything else which displayed such a poor track record, the sactity of marriage is still held up as something we should all asprire to. If there was a 50% graduation rate for highschool, WE WOULD MAKE SOME PROFOUND CHANGES, ASAP, but then, education is regarded as a purely secular engagemnet, and committed relationship has been co-opted by the very same church which has given us the ostensibly celibate priest who seems to be just as sexually dysfuctional as the paradigm he sanctions with his words: "I now pronounce you man and wife".

Can you tell me the number one cause of divorce in the western world?
Nothing to do with churches or lack of, either.

[Second Son]

I think the two main causes of arguments between spouses are financial difficulties, and sexual incompatibility. I would wager, that it is also for these two reasons most marriages fail.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

The fact is, that the number one leading cause of divorce in the world is... Marriage!

[Lord Sidious]

I think the two main causes of arguments between spouses are financial difficulties, and sexual incompatibility. I would wager, that it is also for these two reasons most marriages fail.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

The fact is, that the number one leading cause of divorce in the world is... Marriage!

Not being able to pay the bills, especially the mortgage, so you were close.
Even if you are a nugget. :p

[Second Son]

The real issue, to me, is not marriage, and its inherent shortcomings, it is the undisputable fact that its very proponents are those who are either: 1) sworn to a life of celibacy, and hence have no place to sanction or condone the institution of marriage. 2) Sexual deviates who routinely molest nuns, altar boys, and members of the congregation while claiming a life both pure and chaste.

[Lord Sidious]

The real issue, to me, is not marriage, and its inherent shortcomings, it is the undisputable fact that its very proponents are those who are either: 1) sworn to a life of celibacy, and hence have no place to sanction or condone the institution of marriage. 2) Sexual deviates who routinely molest nuns, altar boys, and members of the congregation while claiming a life both pure and chaste.

And what reason do you think the church promotes it?

[Little Ishta]

This is quite an interesting thread. IMO I believe cheating is no no. It is disrespectful. To yourself and to your partner. You made a commitment. Honour that. A lot of problems are usually lack of communication. The magic died out or just grew apart. It happens. Relationships are about 100% of giving it your all. Besides that, I believe your partner should be your best friend and your lover. Don't people realize that if you want the marriage to work you have to work at it too? Don't get married for the wrong reasons.... get married for the right reasons. Stop being selfish and thinking of yourself. Start giving.... but to your partner ;) Besides there are too many sexual diseases out there!

[jackovesk]

My (Simple) Philosophy on 'Cheating'...

If you don't like being 'Cheated On' - 'Don't Cheat'..!

If you've had enough of the relationship - Then 'Get Out Of It'..!

[Setras]

sex and love are two seperate things...... sexual need can be primal/animalistic and can convey no emotion, however its climax can produce feelings that can be confused with love. is it cheating to fulfil a basic need. i love my partner dearly and if i needed to get sexual lust satisfied elsewhere i know this would not be an issue, as my love lies with my partner. i find that as a result i do not look elsewhere........

[Sierra]

It's because they didn't have the institution of "marriage". There was no rule of monogamy in most indigenous culture. In Eskimo culture, they actively encouraged sexual mixing, to keep the gene pool healthy. In most Indian cultures, on American soil, they did as they wished, moving in and out of relationships. Not until the white man came along, brought in Christian Judgement and alcohol, deadly to the indigenous biology, did things go south.

No, Sierra, that's just a lack of 'necessary relationship permanence'. Indigenous cultures weren't laissez-faire "oh look, here I am coming home to find my neighbour and my wife en flagrante". 400 years ago, divorce wasn't really a possibility, but just because it is now and people are free to end their relationships, it doesn't mean we live in a cheating-riddled world.

A lack of sexual inhibition is absolutely not the same as cheating. A lack of sexual inhibition may be involved in cheating, but it's not all of it. Cheating is a betrayal of trust upon which the relationship is based. If the relationship doesn't require sexual exclusivity, promiscuousness is not cheating. On the other hand, if the relationship is exclusive/monogamous, sex isn't even necessary for cheating, even if it is the standard form. If indigenous cultures were quite happy to see those in a relationship dissolve their union, it cannot be taken to mean that people could not cheat in those days or that cheating is a by-product of a marital society. Cheating is the betrayal of trust, what form that betrayal takes is relative to the relationship and possible in every culture.

I think we're saying the same thing. Exclusivity was but one of many options and you could move in and out of options is what I was trying to say. Therefore, unless one was dishonest about where one was at (and why would it be necessary to be dishonest in an open culture?) cheating didn't really come into the picture. Or at least that was my interpretation of what I read.

[Second Son]

The real issue, to me, is not marriage, and its inherent shortcomings, it is the undisputable fact that its very proponents are those who are either: 1) sworn to a life of celibacy, and hence have no place to sanction or condone the institution of marriage. 2) Sexual deviates who routinely molest nuns, altar boys, and members of the congregation while claiming a life both pure and chaste.

And what reason do you think the church promotes it?

I believe we have both been members of this forum for long enough to realize that the phsycopaths at the top are practioners of sex magik, and that they practice the same rituals which have been handed down from the druids, pagans, etc., though it could be argued that they, the deranged ruling class, have added a new dimension of sacrifice/satanism, which may or may not have been a part of the ancient druidic tradition.

I also believe that these sociopaths think the institution of marriage (in most cases) leads to a rather staid, stale, and predictable sex life, without the spark and passion which was present at the outset. This of course, leaves them, as the sole custodians of this extremely powerful creative force, whilst the uninitiated are chained to a societal construct which is disempowering.

At least this is why the PTW promote the institution of marriage, IMHO

[Lord Sidious]

The real issue, to me, is not marriage, and its inherent shortcomings, it is the undisputable fact that its very proponents are those who are either: 1) sworn to a life of celibacy, and hence have no place to sanction or condone the institution of marriage. 2) Sexual deviates who routinely molest nuns, altar boys, and members of the congregation while claiming a life both pure and chaste.

And what reason do you think the church promotes it?

I believe we have both been members of this forum for long enough to realize that the phsycopaths at the top are practioners of sex magik, and that they practice the same rituals which have been handed down from the druids, pagans, etc., though it could be argued that they, the deranged ruling class, have added a new dimension of sacrifice/satanism, which may or may not have been a part of the ancient druidic tradition.

I also believe that these sociopaths think the institution of marriage (in most cases) leads to a rather staid, stale, and predictable sex life, without the spark and passion which was present at the outset. This of course, leaves them, as the sole custodians of this extremely powerful creative force, whilst the uninitiated are chained to a societal construct which is disempowering.

At least this is why the PTW promote the institution of marriage, IMHO

I was going to say control, but now that you mention it..................

[Second Son]

I am naturally sceptical of anything which is propped up in by the PTW.

[Second Son]

Tell me, Sid, do you think the state sanctioning of marriage has anything to do with the fact that it is usually an expensive proposition to disolve, and invariably involves a lawyer or two?

[Lord Sidious]

Tell me, Sid, do you think the state sanctioning of marriage has anything to do with the fact that it is usually an expensive proposition to disolve, and invariably involves a lawyer or two?

I see it as more that they can control it, if they issue a license.
Remember, license means in law, permission to do something, that without the permission, would be unlawful.
If they give you permission, it straight away puts them in a position of superiority.
Plus, what happens with the children?
Who has the last say over them?
And we didn't even get into the securitisation of the certificates yet, either.

[Second Son]

True, Sid. I have heard that some divorce judges flat out refuse to "grant" joint custody, because that lowers the amount of oversight, child support, etc. Seems that asking for a marriage liscence is akin to opening Pandora's box... you never know what the scary after effects will be.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Would it be correct to assume that anything (any asset or child) created within a state-sanctioned institution would be, by proxy, the property of the state?

[Lord Sidious]

True, Sid. I have heard that some divorce judges flat out refuse to "grant" joint custody, because that lowers the amount of oversight, child support, etc. Seems that asking for a marriage liscence is akin to opening Pandora's box... you never know what the scary after effects will be.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Would it be correct to assume that anything (any asset or child) created within a state-sanctioned institution would be, by proxy, the property of the state?

You got it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis
And now you know why they claim they can do things with your kids against your will.

[NancyV]

I have thought a lot about having other sex partners while within a marriage since I married my first husband at the age of 18 in 1965. I suppose I was typically brainwashed into thinking that we would both naturally want to be sexually faithful since we were so much in love. It was quite a shock when I found out that my husband had multiple lovers. Aside from being hurt I had to start thinking about it....why he was driven to do this. I didn't want to leave him since I still loved him. He told me that he loved me as much as ever but he didn't feel badly about having sex with other women. He thought it was normal for a man to "stray" outside of marriage.

So I started doing a lot of reading and research which took a lot of effort since there was no Internet. I came to the conclusion that it was biologically natural, on an animal level, for males to "spread their seed". Men and women are born with different survival traits. One of the natural traits of a man is to ensure the survival and diversity of the species and they do that by having sex with many females. A woman, however, is often fearful if she knows her man is attracted to other females because her main biological imperative is to protect her young. That means keeping the father around to provide for and protect her and the children.

It seems to me that jealousy is about fear of loss. Men fear losing their progeny, their partner or their pride. Women fear losing their provider/partner and their idea of what love should be. This doesn't deal with religious rules or moral constructs. I'm basically saying that I think the desire to have multiple sex partners is much more natural for a man than for a woman.

Although we have outgrown the need to reproduce plentifully since we probably have an overpopulation problem, we still have the instinct to reproduce, so men (especially the extremely virile ones with excessive testosterone) still feel the drive to have multiple sex partners. If a disaster were to occur and 90% of the human species was wiped out or if the agenda to wipe out a large percentage of the population succeeds, our instinct to reproduce would again ensure the survival of the human species.

Religions preaching morals is about control. Maybe some of it is good, maybe some of it is bad, but it is about trying to control our natural instincts.

As far as love, it took me 4 marriages and MANY lovers to find my soul mate at the age of 48. Probably most people don't find a soul mate and I feel lucky to have finally found mine almost 16 years ago.

I never had a problem forgiving any of my husbands if they strayed. Of course there was always some hurt and anger but I determined not to let that make me stop loving them. I have also had other lovers occasionally while married, with the exception of this present marriage with my soul mate. My 2nd husband and I were celibate for over 3 years of our 16 year marriage while we were on a particular spiritual path and I've also studied tantra and had some incredible mergings during sex. But even the best sex cannot compare to merging while out of body. Sex is a pale imitation of merging completely with another being in other dimensions.

It's important to remember that we are very heavily brainwashed by our society, our parents, our peers, our schools and our religions. We are also brainwashed by the media. It's very difficult to overcome that conditioning and break free of the knee jerk judgments and reactions we have that are learned from birth on. There are many reasons for "cheating", some of which are genetic urges. To make a sweeping judgment that it is wrong is a bit too simplistic for my tastes. It's quite complex and there isn't a simple answer or one right answer regarding why we may have a desire to engage in sex with multiple partners in or out of marriage.

[motherlove]

Once you have understood who/what you really are you would not drop your drawers or your integrity for any reason. I don't have any judgements on anyones perspectives as we all have them from what ever frame of reference we are coming from. The treads title to me means a lack of integrity and understanding of the self whatever it applys to. Best Wishes

[DNA]

What is it about sex that feeds the agenda of the elites?

Do you ever have a truth that you have come to terms with, but somehow sheltered the larger portion of your psyche from, by not over examining it, and tucking it away in the recesses of your mind? This is one of those areas for me.
I don't personaly believe in possession. Atleast, not out and out possession. But I have always thought there were entities capable of exerting considerable influence over our beings. I believe 9eagle9 called it peripheral influence, or peripheral possession. I agree with her in this regard and think this is a splendid method for describing it. I think entities may attach to folks and influence them, possibly cause them to itch if you will for certain things and coax them through such itches into a direction.
Check out this alternative definition for peripheral



A peripheral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral)is a device attached to a host computer, but not part of it, and is more or less dependent on the host. It expands the host's capabilities, but does not form part of the core computer architecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_architecture).


I think this is what "may" be happening to the elite. One is acclamated to ritual in college in association to fraternities, and then low level secret orgninizations like the Masonic lodges, skull and bones, then there are high level rituals, like in the Bohemian Grove, and who knows what the hell happens behind closed doors that no one knows about above that. It was said that Stanley Kubrik knew of these things when he made "eyes wide shut".

It seems very likely that folks are asking entities into them selves in ancient languages they no longer speak, and sealing the deal so to speak with an elaborate ceremony.


I've come across something recently that really blows the lid right off of the whole religion thing and basically says it is by our sexual coupling that we feed the lower gods / fallen angels.
This is what Alex Grey reported seeing while on an LSD trip, and he commited to painting in his Deities Drinking From A Milky Pool (http://media.photobucket.com/image/alex%20grey,%20deities%20drinking%20from%20a%20milky%20pool/thireyecommunication/AlexGrey2.jpg)


That we were not given permission by the creator to procreate, but the Anunaki stepped in and changed our DNA.
I believe the Annunaki have stepped in several times to altar our genetics. I have also come across information stating that the Annunaki purposely made us susceptiple to beauty in a way that is disadvantagous. We were built with the facility to be impressed by beauty and to over rate it's importance. I sometimes think this factors into the need for infedelity as well.


There is a whole thread on this and you can go there to study it if you want to.
A statement like that is ussually backed up by a link. :)


Here is my point. Most marriages are destroyed because the people marry when they are not ready. They make knee jerk decisions outside of community and family and just get married. They are not ready financially to marry nor emotionally. Most marriages end because of financial difficulty and also incompatibility for the short term ones. Most longer term marriages end over financial issues or STS situations. There was a time that a man could not marry until he had a home of his own. He had a means to take care of his family and this gave security to him and the bride for the safety of herself and her children.

I personally think it is the misidentification of what love is.
We have Eros which is known as erotic love, the ravenous and unstoppable force that convinces us we shall be carried away by it.
We have Philos, a love based on the friendship of two people.
We have Agape, which is unconditional love, like the love a mother has for her child.

I think the problem lies with folks feeling the power of Eros, and then mistaking that for something that can be sustained for ever.
And when the roaring fire of Eros subsides, if folks have not devoloped Philos for one another, they don't know what to do.
Or, as is more often the case, they have devoloped philos and they feel this "freindship" is not what they bargained for and they want to return to the bonfire of excitement that lies in Eros.

I personally think men and women are equally in error in this area.
And this error is fed to gargantuan proportions by the movies we watch and the books we read.

So often I hear the phrase "I fell out of love", and not to be judgemental but it's all fine and dandy if you don't have kids.
I could care less if you don't have kids.
But if you have children, one should hope your personal gratifications could be subjucated and properly prioritized.
The need to fly off on a cloud of eros is relagated to trivial in the face of raising children and should be looked upon as both selfish and greedy should a person abandon a parenting relationship so one can seek sexual and erotic gratification.

I may not be popular for this, but I would suggest discrete infidelity before I would suggest breaking apart a parental unit.

[Seikou-Kishi]

I think we're saying the same thing.

Quite possibly XD

[Tony]

The importance of trust and responsibility.

If beings feel they can trust you, then you are reliable.
If you feel responsible, then you can love.

If you do not care, then you do not care.
If you waste your choice, then your choice is wasted.

A good heart is an easy path.




What sort of world do you want?

[sygh]

I will be terse: Unconditional love between a man, and a woman... there is only one other relationship on this planet to compare it to, and that is the relationship one can have with one's creator.

[OnyxKnight]

This thread may make me the enemy of the forum.........but I just gotta bring this up.

Why is cheating in a relationship considered wrong? I find that most people who are stuck with one person all their life tend to decline in health at a fast rate (put on weight, lose their passion and enthusiasm for life etc), while those who stay living the single life look so much younger, healthier and more fit.

Actually, dwindling health, and letting things go loose has nothing to do with being with one person for a life-long time. I'm not sure how you got those things connected with each other but it is one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a while.

If anything, the opposite stands to more truth. The longer you stay with a person, the more you try to maintain good physique and be at the peak of your health, so as to not to smudge the circumstances that got them both attracted to each other in the first place.

You only have to take a glimpse at magazines like Men's health/Women's Health. But, magazines aside, scientists (as you brought them up yourself) think differently:

Mark Hayward

512-471-8382

mhayward@prc.utexas.edu


Hayward's research reveals divorced middle-aged women are 60 percent more likely to get cardiovascular disease-even when they remarry-than women who remain married. The research reveals emotional distress and a decline in financial status were the main factors linking divorce to heart disease in women.

We all know the main reason why divorces are sky high. Read your thread title.


There is also growing evidence for the psychological
health benefits of a romantic partner. For example, married
individuals have been found to have greater psychological
health and report being happier and more satisfied with
their lives than their unmarried peers (Bookwala and Schulz
1996; Bradburn 1969; Gove 1979; Gove et al. 1983; Tucker
et al. 1996).

This is part of a research paper titled "Romantic Relationships and Health: An Examination of Individuals’ Perceptions of their Romantic Partners’ Influences on their Health", which you can download it here (http://www.springerlink.com/content/k643t30327332853/) for free, so you can read more (and maybe by some miracle, change your way of viewing monogamous relationships a little).


After a long time in a relationship, most men and women start to develop wandering eyes, the sex between them tends to become quite grey, that's if it still exists at all.

Now I know most of you will try to give me an example of a relationship that is working out perfectly after x amount of decades, but that is probably less than 1% of humanity who will ever encounter the stereo typical soul mate to live the rest of their life with happily ever after.

That is not true.


Large-scale studies executed in the United States over the past 40 years have found that at least 37 percent of men and 29 percent of women have engaged in sex outside their marital relationship.

Source (http://www.thebody.com/content/art14030.html)

^ ^ ^ This means that 63 % of men and 71 % of women still remain faithful and loyal to their spouses/partners.

That's hardly "most" people. In fact, it suggests 'most' people do prefer monogamy.

So, get your facts and percentages straight.


Why do we get jealous when someone cheats? When you think about this logically, isn't this selfish behaviour? To expect someone MUST give themselves to you and ONLY you, for the rest of their lives........

If they made that kind of promise to you, and actually tried to convince you in that notion over some period of time, then yes, I, as well as anyone else would expect them to "walk the talk". What's the point in being with somebody (even if its not marriage, or anything as closely as serious ) if they are going to lie to you, or betray you?

Most people take hurt from that. Not the fact that they slept with somebody else (although that adds additional damage too). The betrayal is the more painful and sad fact they have to deal with, which causes emotional strain.

If you (speaking generally here) feel you are incapable of engaging in a monogamous relationship, stop convincing others you are, and even engage in such relationships.

I don't see the point in making somebody develop an emotional attachment to you, if you are going to just destroy it all later on. People don't like being lied to, being played like an instrument, or having their time wasted.

I feel all of the above, is actually selfish, not what you OP outlined is.

If you can't help bit have the "wondering eyes" and sexual attractions for various other people you cannot dim down, then monogamy is not for you, and leave it for people that do prefer it. Why engage in it at all? That's what I don't understand. I never did. And I never will.


All I'm saying is I think when we fall in love, the endorphins rush, we have an amazing time with one special person, and then that river eventually starts to dry up for most people, yet some of us force ourselves to stay in that relationship while dehydrating because "we should be together forever"

“They spoil every romance by trying to make it last forever.” - Oscar Wilde

There are many, many cases where this is not the scenario being played out.

If you are with the right person, things may become toned down and less exciting like they were at the start, but you won't loose the sexual attraction, emotional attachment, or feel like things between you and your partner are becoming dull and boring.

Monogamy ≠ monotony.

[Seikou-Kishi]

Your tenor lacks a certain, je ne sais quoi, Onyx, but I loved your post and research your presented. A great post, all things considered.

[Simonm]

It is said, that there are those that desire to see their partner cheat?

[DNA]

Your tenor lacks a certain, je ne sais quoi, Onyx, but I loved your post and research your presented. A great post, all things considered.

I enjoyed Onyx's post as well. I felt it could have been a tad,,,,well,,,,nicer, but I just don't think that is Onyx's style. :)

[Rantaak]

I think what you mean to ask is, "Is love about control or letting go of fear?"

For most people, love is about desperately clutching the other person in the relationship in fear of either losing them or in fear of them making their own decisions for themselves. It doesn't have to be this way, but we are conditioned socially and genetically to react this way in certain situations. It is a similar principle as occurs during disagreements between people. Most people believe that if another person doesn't share the same opinion or beliefs as them, that this is an act of violence. What is violent is the projection of perceived violence onto the other party when one feels insecure.

[Tarka the Duck]

I have been following this thread with great interest: I am lucky enough never to have had to face anyone cheating on me, and I truly don't know how I would deal with it...

The title, Cheating, is unequivocal: cheating any other person (whether or not they are your lover) is a manifestation of dishonesty and disrespect and is done from a wish/desire to gain some kind of advantage over somebody else.

It seems, from reading the thread, that there are different ways to view love.
Maybe we all experience it in different ways - and our "attachment style" will also have an effect on our relationships.

Some people see love as a deep, sacred bond.
Others seem to see it as a a bit of a game, something to dip into and enjoy for as long as it lasts.
And there seem to be those who use it as a way to exert power over another person.

I wonder how many of the people who are truly in the first category would cheat?

I found this - Styles of Love based on the work of the sociologists Lee and Regan - made interesting reading:

Styles of Love:

Eros – some people experience love with a lot of passion, intimacy and intensity. Love based on Eros has a strong sexual and emotional component. People who experience love this way want to be emotionally and physically close to their romantic partners and they tend to idealize love. Such love is marked by passion as well as compassion (kindness and consideration). Eros is best viewed as romantic, passionate love - the type of love that creates excitement at the beginning of a new relationship.

Ludus – some people experience love as a game to be played with other people’s emotions. The goal or desire is to gain control over a partner through manipulation. People who experience love as Ludus like to have multiple love interests where they are in complete control. Lying, cheating and deception are common for people who experience love as Ludus – it’s all part of the game. For people who experience love as Ludus, it is satisfying to outwit a partner and exploit his or her weak spots (see, husband plays with my heart, who is likely to cheat, lovefraud).

Storge – some people experience love as a gradual and slow process. When love is based on Storge, getting to know someone comes before having intense feelings for that person. Love based on Storge takes time, it requires genuine liking and understanding of a partner, and it develops slowly over time. Love based on Storge is often compared to the love that one has for a friend. In fact, people who experience love as Storge often fall in love with their friends.

Agape – some people experience love as caregiving. Love is the overwhelming desire to want to take care of a partner - a parental or nurturing type of love. Love based on Agape is attentive, caring, compassionate and kind - a more altruistic or selfless type of love.

Mania – some people experience love as being out of control. Love is an overwhelming experience; it turns one’s life upside down and it results in a complete loss of one’s identity. Love based on Mania is crazy, impulsive and needy. People who experience love as Mania fall in love quickly, but their love tends to consume them. Love experienced as Mania also tends to burnout before it gets the chance to mature. Such love is often marked by extreme delusions, feelings of being out of control, rash decisions, and vulnerability. People who experience love as Mania are easily taken advantage of by people who experience love as Ludus.

Pragma – some people take a practical approach to love. Love is not crazy, intense, or out of control. Love is based on common sense and reason. People who experience love as Pragma tend to pick a suitable mate the way most other people make serious life decisions: picking a partner is based on careful consideration and reason. Practical concerns underlie this type of love.

Agape – some people experience love as caregiving. Love is the overwhelming desire to want to take care of a partner - a parental or nurturing type of love. Love based on Agape is attentive, caring, compassionate and kind - a more altruistic or selfless type of love.

Mania – some people experience love as being out of control. Love is an overwhelming experience; it turns one’s life upside down and it results in a complete loss of one’s identity. Love based on Mania is crazy, impulsive and needy. People who experience love as Mania fall in love quickly, but their love tends to consume them. Love experienced as Mania also tends to burnout before it gets the chance to mature. Such love is often marked by extreme delusions, feelings of being out of control, rash decisions, and vulnerability. People who experience love as Mania are easily taken advantage of by people who experience love as Ludus.

Pragma – some people take a practical approach to love. Love is not crazy, intense, or out of control. Love is based on common sense and reason. People who experience love as Pragma tend to pick a suitable mate the way most other people make serious life decisions: picking a partner is based on careful consideration and reason. Practical concerns underlie this type of love.

In a relationship that works in a healthy way - and, despite the views of some on this thread, this is possible! - people treat each other with kindness, appreciation, concern and respect.

And the happiness of the other is more important than your own...maybe that is at the crux of this?
Cheating is to indulge yourself.
Being committed is to really feel that your partner's happiness and wellbeing is more precious than your own desires.

There is nothing as wonderful (for me) as the richness of spending my life with someone I know intimately, and who can read me without the need for words.
It far outweighs that initial exhuberance and headiness of "falling in love" - although, to be honest, that experience is still there after 32 years.

To use a cliche - compare the depth and smoothness of a mature vintage wine with the fresh, fizzy exciting flavour of a young wine.

[Lord Sidious]

I think what you mean to ask is, "Is love about control or letting go of fear?"

For most people, love is about desperately clutching the other person in the relationship in fear of either losing them or in fear of them making their own decisions for themselves. It doesn't have to be this way, but we are conditioned socially and genetically to react this way in certain situations. It is a similar principle as occurs during disagreements between people. Most people believe that if another person doesn't share the same opinion or beliefs as them, that this is an act of violence. What is violent is the projection of perceived violence onto the other party when one feels insecure.

How do you know it is most?

[OnyxKnight]

Your tenor lacks a certain, je ne sais quoi, Onyx, but I loved your post and research your presented. A great post, all things considered.



Your tenor lacks a certain, je ne sais quoi, Onyx, but I loved your post and research your presented. A great post, all things considered.

I enjoyed Onyx's post as well. I felt it could have been a tad,,,,well,,,,nicer, but I just don't think that is Onyx's style. :)

Thanks

Sometimes when I come across a topic I'm "sensitive" about (one way or another) there seems to be a tendency for me to compose posts that display a slightly aggressive lyrical tone.

Its how I often post, I think most people know that about me here, and that its just how I word myself, not how I actually feel about the person I'm having the discussion with (If I do, I point that out).

Most often, its the people who haven't had the opportunity ( or misfortune) to stumble across me on a thread, and find my posts ... welll... harsh? Its those people usually. Or new members.

I'll try to work on my approach in future lol.

[Ernie Nemeth]

When I was 16 I cheated on my girlfriend. We had been dating for about 6 months by then. She was my "first". I really thought I loved her and that we could go on to have a happy little life together and all that. I felt so guilty I finally had to admit my infedility. My girlfriend took it in stride, to my surprise.

After that I did not feel the same for her. It took me another six months to realize it but eventually I broke up with her.

I never cheated again, in my mind at least. If I find myself thinking about straying I interprete that as meaning my relationship is in danger or at risk in some way. If I do cheat it is my way of declaring the end of a relationship, a severing.


It is strange, but over the years I've come to realize that a relationship is not about sex. That was a hard one to accept since I usually pair up with a partner on the basis of sexual attraction. If it's not about sex then the criteria for sexual coupling is the wrong benchmark to use for selecting a mate. That is where the friction comes from. Marriages fail because expectations are not met. Expectations are not met because those were not the criteria used to select a mate - sex was. Simple, but hard to learn while experiencing the leason.

I'm sure many criteria exist other than sex, like money, fame and power. But are any of these things a true reason to be in relationship - to be in love?

Then again, is there any real reason to have an exclusive relationship with anybody? So many of us go into a relationship to compensate for some defficiency of some sort perceived either in themselves or their partner. Is that a good reason to be in love - because of a character flaw? How would two advanced humans look like in relationship, I wonder? I'm sure there is relationships in 4D too. Do they swear fidelity just to get a little action? Or are there other reasons to couple at the exclusion of everyone else?

[lisa]

Ugh, this thread caught my eye because of the hole i am in...

I love my hubby to death and we have been together for 13 years. I had one boyfriend before that, but we did not consummate our relationship. Naively, I thought that there is one and only match for each person. It is now apparent that there are more than one person i am compatible with, whom i want to spend time with, know intimately and help at a deep level.

I met a guy about a year ago. I don't understand why, but he likes me a lot since we first met. I was scared to be alone with him, irrationally afraid that he might do something to me. Normally, i become a brick wall. This time, i decided not to do that as i am working on opening my heart. My fear of him turned around quickly and i was drawn to him soon after.

He has a big heart. He is funny, intuitive and charming. Unlike me, he is not a robot. He has emotions and he hardly repress them. There is something compelling about his gaze, his words and his touch, but i am programmed (by my upbringing) to stay a foot away when it comes to hugging times.

I feel his pain when i am not physically open. It is a pity how our relationship can only be superficial. Nevertheless, i know there will come a time when we no longer see each other and the feelings will fade.

To those of u who practise sacred sex, i envy u. I have been interested for years, but had only dabbled in it because my hubby has zero interest in anything spiritual so far. He is very scientific, which is awesome in its own way.

Love, with all my heart!

[nearing]

Cheating = Betrayal when 2 people have taken vows 'for better or for worse' and for life.

And this Betrayal can devastate the person cheated on since they may not be able to open themselves up to trusting another human again.

Please think, think, think very hard before deciding to cheat. It's far better to try hard to revive and save the relationship you are in and then leave if that fails before getting into another relationship (or one night stand) for all of the people involved. Far better.

I speak from experience.

[vibrations]

Why not try with freedom? If you are free and your partner is free, if you two really feels love to each other, than there is no problem. The relationship is emotional connection, sharing everything because of just one reason.....Love. And where there is no love anymore, why not just talk about it and go everyone to his/her own direction. Nice theory. But there is a house, kids, mortgage, friends, so conditions to retain the social appearance as it is. Wrong. Overcoming this artificial s...t will help you to find the freedom and from that freedom the partner can come which will fill your need to express emotions. Cheating is not more than assisted masturbation, a false feeling of sharing something which ends before in reality starts. And real emotions are one of the most important things in our life.

[Sidney]

My personal opinion is, and I can only speak for myself, but I believe that if you want to cheat, do cheat, or simply have a wandering eye, it certainly devalues that little thing we call love. And If you no longer love someone, you have no business pretending to be in a monogamous relationship. Either you are with someone forever, or your not. Kinda like being a little bit pregnant. Get out, get a divorce, and then have your cake. Its a simple question of morals.

again, I speak for how I feel. Its obviously open for debate.

[Ellisa]

Whilst I do not believe in soul-mates and the notion that there is only one person on the planet who will be my chosen mate I also do not believe that having decided to marry or live as a couple it is in any way at all right to cheat,-- ---leave maybe, confess maybe, but deliberate cheating is wrong. Deciding to marry or live together means commitment and trust as well as love. Cheating is a betrayal of that trust.

I totally agree with Starchild's sentiments. Get out and start again with someone else and be honest about your need to cheat. You may find someone who agrees with you!

I too, am obviously speaking for myself however I speak from experience here. I have been married a long time (47 years) and together we have faced lots of challenges-- but I can honestly say that I have no better friend, or anyone I'd trust more. It's a much better reward than cheating could ever be.

[DNA]

I know this might sound like a broken recored here, but this whole idea of cheating to me is secondary to if you have kids.
Cheating on a partner where no kids are involved is something that can devastate a person.
But, it is your life.
Cheating when their are children involved creates repurcussians that extend past the hurt feelings of a spouse.

Again, I doubt folks would like to hear this but I repeat, if kids are involved, then the luxary of falling in love with another person other than your spouse should not be done.
If you think you can get away with something that doesn't involve love, and find it some what satisfying, I guess do what you have to do.
Not only do spouses carry around a grudge when some one cheats, but children find out, and will hold a grudge towards that parent for a while as well, sometimes for the rest of their life.

My best freinds mom cheated on his dad when he was young, and he can't say a nice thing about his mother now without throwing that in.
It has effed him up, and his views on women as a whole as well.

[ktlight]

We hold images in our minds and when the image is broken, the love goes. That is not love. If it were love, nothing would be broken. Love cannot be controlled or bought or owned. When love is in a partnership, there is a lot of compassion, honesty and truth, therefore, no room for any way of being that leads to regrets. Accept indiscretions since these are of who you have partnered with. This is easily done if there is love.

[vibrations]

We hold images in our minds and when the image is broken, the love goes. That is not love. If it were love, nothing would be broken. Love cannot be controlled or bought or owned. When love is in a partnership, there is a lot of compassion, honesty and truth, therefore, no room for any way of being that leads to regrets. Accept indiscretions since these are of who you have partnered with. This is easily done if there is love.

Beautiful words Kathie, I feel very much the same.

[OnyxKnight]

Although we have outgrown the need to reproduce plentifully since we probably have an overpopulation problem

What makes you think we have an overpopulation problem?

[Unified Serenity]

Although we have outgrown the need to reproduce plentifully since we probably have an overpopulation problem

What makes you think we have an overpopulation problem?

Thank you OnyxKnight, we don't have an over population problem we have a greed problem. There is plenty of good land to grow food on, there is plenty of land for all the people and animals, our problems come from greed, war (greed), cruelty to mankind in need (greed) often abused by their own leaders for power plays.

All we have to do is manage our resources better and get rid of STS bastards, LOL.

[lisa]

Maybe people cheat because they do not know that they can have an open relationship, or they thought they may hurt their partners if they are open. I am not capable of cheating because truth just spills out of my mouth like i have terrets.

Hubby and i are not having kids or mortgage, but i do have concerns about shocking/disgracing my family/friends. My options are:
* Status quo - stay the course and not make any waves. I know how to do this because being the brick wall is my specialty.
* Open marriage - hubby and i discussed about this, but the logistics are mind-boggling. I cannot begin to imagine how to split my time between two people. However, this will help me work on purging jealousy out of my system.
* Celibacy - I can see myself becoming celibate and no longer crave human intimacy. Hubby is not too into this.

In my mind, my hubby is perfect for me and he has been an immense source of growth. I was sitting on the middle seat of a plane with two guys on my sides. Our conversation goes something like this:
Guy A: "What do you and your husband argue about?"
I pondered and said: "We rarely argue, but when we do it is about our beliefs."
Guy A, incredulous: "Beliefs?! Most people argue about money."
Guy B: "Yeah! Money or sex."

I think it is important to know the "truth". My hubby does not. My beliefs changed so much over the years that our beliefs are a world apart. We seldom talk about our beliefs anymore because it is like a dog talking to a cat.

[nearing]

Maybe people cheat because they do not know that they can have an open relationship, or they thought they may hurt their partners if they are open. I am not capable of cheating because truth just spills out of my mouth like i have terrets.

Hubby and i are not having kids or mortgage, but i do have concerns about shocking/disgracing my family/friends. My options are:
* Status quo - stay the course and not make any waves. I know how to do this because being the brick wall is my specialty.
* Open marriage - hubby and i discussed about this, but the logistics are mind-boggling. I cannot begin to imagine how to split my time between two people. However, this will help me work on purging jealousy out of my system.
* Celibacy - I can see myself becoming celibate and no longer crave human intimacy. Hubby is not too into this.

In my mind, my hubby is perfect for me and he has been an immense source of growth. I was sitting on the middle seat of a plane with two guys on my sides. Our conversation goes something like this:
Guy A: "What do you and your husband argue about?"
I pondered and said: "We rarely argue, but when we do it is about our beliefs."
Guy A, incredulous: "Beliefs?! Most people argue about money."
Guy B: "Yeah! Money or sex."

I think it is important to know the "truth". My hubby does not. My beliefs changed so much over the years that our beliefs are a world apart. We seldom talk about our beliefs anymore because it is like a dog talking to a cat.

I am not so sure that a dog and a cat should be married to one another. There is no shame in leaving if 'beliefs' can't be reconciled.

[Rantaak]

"How do you know it is most?"

Observation.

[Lord Sidious]

"How do you know it is most?"

Observation.

I think your sample group would have to be a minute representation of the world.
So, like most polls, it is flawed.

[TargeT]

Although we have outgrown the need to reproduce plentifully since we probably have an overpopulation problem

What makes you think we have an overpopulation problem?

Social suggestion/indoctrination ;) you can't EVER let your guard down.. question everything; AWAYS!





I've recently grown out of an 8 year monogamous (on my part) relationship; I was "cheated on" twice while in that relationship (& I think "cheat" is being focused on too much here, the topic is really monogamy is it not? we can agree that lying is bad; no need to debate that)

Her justification for the first one was good rationalization for her; and the 2nd didn't really have much backing; I would use these incidents to be emotionally childish and "rub it in her face" as the opertunity presented itself; how is that healthy for anyone?

I honestly never bought into monogamy, if its the way it's "suppose to be" then why does it feel so forced 'n wrong? Granted these feelings are from base urges (lower vibration i guess... which to me means easily surmountable; &/or easily indulged pick your poison).

This made me start to question relationships in general why am I always drawn to them, I'm a "serial dater"; haven't been single for very long my entire life... It seems that co-dependence & lack of personal identity/knowledge were heavy factors.

now I've not fully explored this; I'm not sure what I want, but sex is definitely high on the list; I imagine trust is as well (which we can boil down to lack of fear right?) financial concerns are fear again, now that I think about it; aside from sex & bonding with someone I don't want a lot out of relationships however; when ever I think of "what I want" I start an internal battle between my (probably mine, or at least what I've been indoctrinated to) desire & the "shame" of selfishness that it seems to bring on (more social indoctrination).

I never thought of the sex magic angle; that honestly makes a lot of sense as every long term relationship I've had has fallin into "rut sex" unless effort was made by me & even then it seemed a passing thing.. I can't imagine the drive & energy that is associated with new exciting relationships is inconsequential (however I haven't gotten into any tantric practices; though I am highly interested.. it seems that monogamy doesn't really figure into that much though.) & with so much popular "vampiric" references (especially mixed with sex, vampires and sex are never far apart) I have a hard time not being inclined to think there is something to either the "extra dimensional" energy siphons or something...

I can only speak from the male perspective; with hopefully at least a little feminine influence (as I strive for ballance) but I have never had a desire to be monogomus that wasn't based out of fear (I think i can boil it all down to that) or simple respect for someone elses wishes (or in other words, bowing to their control).


edit:

Hmm, strange that love didn't make my list of wants, maybe thats what I meant by bonding......

[fosselovelight]

What a beautiful and honest thread :) :) :) thank you.

[Daughter of Time]

Instead of "until death do us part" I would prefer "until our journey together has ended". And sometimes the journey will last forever.
Cheating is wrong only because it's dishonest. Lies hurt.
If a relationship is not working anymore, the bond should be broken, but not by cheating nor walking away and breaking the other person's heart. The issue should be discussed, understood, and the bond should be broken in a loving ritual of appreciation for all that was shared with the other person. This may be difficult to accomplish, but it is possible. I attended a ritual at the end of a marriage, and it was beautifully moving. They are now very good friends.

[Lord Sidious]

Instead of "until death do us part" I would prefer "until our journey together has ended". And sometimes the journey will last forever.
Cheating is wrong only because it's dishonest. Lies hurt.
If a relationship is not working anymore, the bond should be broken, but not by cheating nor walking away and breaking the other person's heart. The issue should be discussed, understood, and the bond should be broken in a loving ritual of appreciation for all that was shared with the other person. This may be difficult to accomplish, but it is possible. I attended a ritual at the end of a marriage, and it was beautifully moving. They are now very good friends.

I agree.
If you can't act with honour, then what worth do you have for anyone?

[leemadison11]

Down on health, looking old and having a boring lifestyle doesn't mean that being in relationship sucks, but that now both have found such partners who accept the person the way he or she is. It has nothing to do with lifestyle and looks.

[pharoah21]

The reason I wrote this thread from the start was because I had quite a traumatic break up recently. The first week was an incredibly difficult time for me, but by the 2nd week, I began to fly again. I found myself to be happier than I ever was in this relationship, and I just couldn't understand why. My first reaction was to question whether or not the whole soul mate thing really existed. I decided it didn't. But I've kept thinking, recalling, analysing my relationship with this person. I have only just started to realise how incredibly difficult this person could be to deal with. Always suspecting me of cheating, having to constantly be on my best behaviour to avoid any emotional tantrums, and constantly walking on egg shells around her. This was a recipe to hurt any relationship. As rough as things have been, I feel better than ever now, I can see God orchestrating things in my life. People I haven't spoken to in years have recently just found their way back in to my life, offering love and support where it's needed. I have a new and improved mind state, I finally have vision for my life again.............and it feels good.

I do believe in soul mates. Through past life regression I know I have been with this girl many times in my previous lives, she was my reason for suicide in my last life, and this life was nearly a repeat. But I'm so glad I made it through, and I am able now to move on to greater things. See the thing is about soul mates, your best friend is one, your partner is too. They take many different forms to teach many different lessons, and you never know how long they'll be around.........but as for the stereo typical romantic lover soul mate that everybody dreams about, I guess that's something reserved for the truly evolved, only they are worthy of something so beautiful.

Thank you to everybody who shared their thoughts and opinions on this thread.

Blessings

[Lord Sidious]

The reason I wrote this thread from the start was because I had quite a traumatic break up recently. The first week was an incredibly difficult time for me, but by the 2nd week, I began to fly again. I found myself to be happier than I ever was in this relationship, and I just couldn't understand why. My first reaction was to question whether or not the whole soul mate thing really existed. I decided it didn't. But I've kept thinking, recalling, analysing my relationship with this person. I have only just started to realise how incredibly difficult this person could be to deal with. Always suspecting me of cheating, having to constantly be on my best behaviour to avoid any emotional tantrums, and constantly walking on egg shells around her. This was a recipe to hurt any relationship. As rough as things have been, I feel better than ever now, I can see God orchestrating things in my life. People I haven't spoken to in years have recently just found their way back in to my life, offering love and support where it's needed. I have a new and improved mind state, I finally have vision for my life again.............and it feels good.

I do believe in soul mates. Through past life regression I know I have been with this girl many times in my previous lives, she was my reason for suicide in my last life, and this life was nearly a repeat. But I'm so glad I made it through, and I am able now to move on to greater things. See the thing is about soul mates, your best friend is one, your partner is too. They take many different forms to teach many different lessons, and you never know how long they'll be around.........but as for the stereo typical romantic lover soul mate that everybody dreams about, I guess that's something reserved for the truly evolved, only they are worthy of something so beautiful.

Thank you to everybody who shared their thoughts and opinions on this thread.

Blessings

No worries masrigoldenmetalobject.
Hopefully, she will get over her limitations and move on too.
Hopefully, the short term cynicism you suffered is exactly that, short term.

[fosselovelight]

This has been a beautiful thread and i truly appreciate everyone's honesty.
I do believe however before looking externally at 'relationships' and 'blaming' or 'analysing' anyone else... we must first love ourselves UNCONDITIONALLY before we can really start learning anything ..... I have also just come out of a relationship... a true learning experience. I do not view it as 'negative' or 'positive' but simply a 'learning experience' to enable my soul's progression in this life. I had many intuitive moments during the relationship that would tell me the person i was with was not for my highest good... as this person did not love themselves and was not honest with themselves which i truly discovered towards the end of the relationship. However I did love the person and i continuously tried to assist them. I found in the end - the person's energy was draining and impacted on my own so much so that it affected how i felt about myself, my artistry , and my relationships with others.. The person's actions and behaviours became quite aggressive and physical being the reason why the relationship has now finally come to end. I also know I have been in past life with this person... in our previous past life together I have had regression memories that he had violently ended my life once before. I do not view this as positive or negative ...i am only grateful for the experience of learning. I am currently on a path of artistry and music and I have found that this experience has truly unleashed a side of me I never knew existed and has helped me with expressions and creativity! I am FREE to finally be ME again with no ROADBLOCKS!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) I am grateful i have not allowed someone who was not for my highest good to be in my life. AS for 'cheating' and 'soul mates'........ well...........I believe UNCONDITIONAL LOVE for oneself... and being one's OWN SOULMATE should always be the main FOCUS!!!!!!...... beautiful relationships, friendships and experiences shall then always follow...

[fosselovelight]

Once you have started seeing the beauty of life, ugliness starts disappearing. If you start looking at life with joy, sadness starts disappearing. You cannot have heaven and hell together, you can only have one. It is your choice." ~ Osho

[TargeT]

we must first love ourselves UNCONDITIONALLY before we can really start learning anything ..... ...


This has been a big focus of mine lately, self exploration before all else.

I think the term "selfish" has negative connotation & is damaging to people, if you do not know your self, if you do not know what makes you happy, if you do not know what you want; how can you ever expect to find/fulfill/be anything to someone else?

I think this starts at child hood with naming, once a name is applied, a persona is created, you are no longer "I AM" you are now "John" which is almost a 3rd party you.. is this the creation of ego; or just a powerful tool ego uses?

[ghostrider]

something the world has lost. L O Y A L T Y ... you honor each other , better to say I want out pick a reason, then go shopping. at least you have been honest and up front. never go shopping while in a bond of honor and trust with the one person that when the whole world turns on you, that one person will stand by you no matter what. I think people just don't take the time to really get to know a person before taking steps toward bonding forever with one person... when you cheat you dis-honor yourself and then karma will come around and bite you in the @##. your gonna reap what you sow. if you cheat you'll be cheated on. I say show some character and be LOYAL.

[lisa]

I am not so sure that a dog and a cat should be married to one another. There is no shame in leaving if 'beliefs' can't be reconciled.

Yeah? Should I dump my friends too?? I am like an alien compared to them. :)

Seriously though, I learn so much from our differences. I learn to understand the differences and walk in other people's shoes. In some ways, our differences compliment each other. In the end, if we are here to experience life and all experiences are equally valid, then it does not matter what our beliefs are.

Hubby and I have a lot in common. We both love the outdoors. We don't watch TV or sports. And even though he is not spiritual, he has amazing insights and very high integrity. He does not drink alcohol or caffeine. He has brilliant ideas and he takes fantastic pictures.

People change so much. Maybe he will wake up tomorrow and become more awake or spiritual than me. Can i keep him now? :p

[nearing]

I am not so sure that a dog and a cat should be married to one another. There is no shame in leaving if 'beliefs' can't be reconciled.

Yeah? Should I dump my friends too?? I am like an alien compared to them. :)

Seriously though, I learn so much from our differences. I learn to understand the differences and walk in other people's shoes. In some ways, our differences compliment each other. In the end, if we are here to experience life and all experiences are equally valid, then it does not matter what our beliefs are.

Hubby and I have a lot in common. We both love the outdoors. We don't watch TV or sports. And even though he is not spiritual, he has amazing insights and very high integrity. He does not drink alcohol or caffeine. He has brilliant ideas and he takes fantastic pictures.

People change so much. Maybe he will wake up tomorrow and become more awake or spiritual than me. Can i keep him now? :p

If you love him, you should definitely keep him. Marital love isn't expendable, it should be cherished! :kiss: Just don't cheat on him, that will only bring both of you heartache in the long run (maybe even the short run).

And I have seen crazier things happen, so yes, he may wake up and become spiritual, for sure!

[pharoah21]

This has been a beautiful thread and i truly appreciate everyone's honesty.
I do believe however before looking externally at 'relationships' and 'blaming' or 'analysing' anyone else... we must first love ourselves UNCONDITIONALLY before we can really start learning anything ..... I have also just come out of a relationship... a true learning experience. I do not view it as 'negative' or 'positive' but simply a 'learning experience' to enable my soul's progression in this life. I had many intuitive moments during the relationship that would tell me the person i was with was not for my highest good... as this person did not love themselves and was not honest with themselves which i truly discovered towards the end of the relationship. However I did love the person and i continuously tried to assist them. I found in the end - the person's energy was draining and impacted on my own so much so that it affected how i felt about myself, my artistry , and my relationships with others.. The person's actions and behaviours became quite aggressive and physical being the reason why the relationship has now finally come to end. I also know I have been in past life with this person... in our previous past life together I have had regression memories that he had violently ended my life once before. I do not view this as positive or negative ...i am only grateful for the experience of learning. I am currently on a path of artistry and music and I have found that this experience has truly unleashed a side of me I never knew existed and has helped me with expressions and creativity! I am FREE to finally be ME again with no ROADBLOCKS!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) I am grateful i have not allowed someone who was not for my highest good to be in my life. AS for 'cheating' and 'soul mates'........ well...........I believe UNCONDITIONAL LOVE for oneself... and being one's OWN SOULMATE should always be the main FOCUS!!!!!!...... beautiful relationships, friendships and experiences shall then always follow...

I agree with you completely.......one should learn to love their self, before truly learning to love another. This was my biggest downfall...........I'm glad things are going well for you, and you are free to spread your wings. :) All the best to you

[pharoah21]

something the world has lost. L O Y A L T Y ... you honor each other , better to say I want out pick a reason, then go shopping. at least you have been honest and up front. never go shopping while in a bond of honor and trust with the one person that when the whole world turns on you, that one person will stand by you no matter what. I think people just don't take the time to really get to know a person before taking steps toward bonding forever with one person... when you cheat you dis-honor yourself and then karma will come around and bite you in the @##. your gonna reap what you sow. if you cheat you'll be cheated on. I say show some character and be LOYAL.

I was loyal as can be to this girl, there were numerous times where she had done some nasty things to me, but I always quickly forgave her, my love did reign supreme for her. But my problem was that I didn't love myself enough, so I started to dwindle, and become spiritually dishevelled. Still to this day I wish there was some form of loyalty between us, at least to say, I did love you, so let's at least work things out like adults so we can move on with our lives...........but I guess we can't have everything, closure is a privilege.

[TargeT]

UNCONDITIONAL LOVE for oneself... and being one's OWN SOULMATE should always be the main FOCUS!!!!!!...... beautiful relationships, friendships and experiences shall then always follow...

This topic has become a focus in my life again (obviously I need to learn a lesson here).


I'm SUPER HESITANTLY re-assessing my definition of relationships, sex, intimacy and possessive feelings because I'm "forced" (ok, not really) to due to my partner having her **** together more than me and being at a better place with herself than I am with myself (oh and she cheated on me, though of course it's far more complex than those few words and saying it that way is probably me just letting a bit of resentment out).

Why do I feel so strongly about someone being happy with someone else AND with me, it's like a physical reaction; like I have an ulcer or someone injects me with anxiety when the thoughts come up... but we weren't virgins when we met, why is it different now?

I think it's mostly because we had an unhealthy relationship at some point where I set myself up for failure in a few ways, I provided everything for a long time (she is certainly contributing now) and when I think back on it I may have been setting up a financial dependency so I felt more permission to "be me" and be less of what she wanted me to be (in the beginning she was very co-dependent (which I thought was very unhealthy, very judgy on my part) and always fawning over me adoring me, I didn't return the same level of attention and I'm sure that's how this all started off). I had different thoughts on topics like drug use etc that I didn't fully respect her on and we clashed over, but I thought it wasn't really a big deal so I didn't understand the reaction to the topic (haha, funny how THAT came back to bite me).

She said that she was very angry at me for a long time because I wasn't fulfilling her expectations until she came to the realization that I was just being me, not doing things to intentionally hurt her; and she could fill those needs with someone else and not have to pressure me for those needs. This makes sense, and I allowed a "friend ship" to progress to "wildly inappropriate levels" (my label) to the point that I knew she was emotionally fulfilling parts of her elsewhere; and we even talked about having open relationships (I was vehemently against, as I've had issues in the past that I haven't worked through fully) and she was just realizing (I think) what her naturally flirtatious nature meant (something I always was at least minorly annoyed by for reasons already stated). She says she was just being selfish and looking for a solution to what she felt was lacking in our relationship; to her this was the perfect fix, to her it wasn't a big deal, to her it was a fix to our relationship and she did not know how badly she would hurt me.

Anyway, we are both trying to set the past aside and work things out, I'm still very hurt by the "cheating" (lying really) but why? She says she'll try to work with me but cannot promise anything for the future (which, omg is so honest!) and I strongly feel that if I stay with her it won't be just us in the future.. and maybe it shouldn't be, who am I to stop her from what makes her happy? Hell maybe I'd like to have an open relationship(?). Or I could still just be processing hurt and seeing things the worst way possible according to my current perspective (thanks brain!).

I recently said there's no way we could be in a relationship in the future with her continuing to have outside partners, but why? If she can be happy with me and someone else, why am I stopping her? Jealousy certainly (fear), a sense of in-adequateness and self loathing that I-wasn't-good-enough (basically insecurities, which are MY issue, not hers... still working through these feelings).

Even though we got to this point with her hurting me, I think it was just an inflection point in our relationship, I need to accept her for what she is right now; or not be with her.

Logically monogamy makes zero sense, I've had the drive to be sexually promiscuous all my life (a drive I've SAVAGELY contained all my life) so why now that I'm interacting with someone else with a similar mind set am I so hurt/betrayed feeling (more of my own personal baggage i'm sure)? Probably doesn't help that she's very attractive and I've maybe always felt like i got too lucky with her and insecurity bla bla blah..

I don't socially interact with many people, I have no one to talk to that I feel comfortable on this topic (INSANE how much pride comes into this, how embarrassed I am about what almost no-one knows). So thank you random internet people :) I've only met a few of you IRL so this feels safer.

We both think we have an awesome opportunity here, that this situation has re-focused our relationship, but I still have heavy trepidation's that the future will mostly likely include something I'm not sure I'm ready for; but we are only 4 days into this, so I don't see how clearly I can be thinking on the topic.

[Valerie Villars]

Target as simplistic as this sounds, you have to make yourself happy. And you have a lot of sorting out to do. It doesn't have to come now or tomorrow or the next day, but you do have to sort it out.

One thing comes to mind. Monogamy makes sense when you consider all the messy things that can happen when you start screwing around. You can get an STD, or father a child with a stranger for instance.

When I was younger and not in a relationship, I screwed around as much as the next person, so I'm no angel.

I asked one man, who I know quite well and who is my age and who had a prodigious sexual appetite well into his late forties, what had changed in him, i.e. he no longer felt it was the end all be all. His reply was "I grew up."

You have a lot of thinking ahead of you but ultimately you need to be happy with yourself before you can be happy by yourself or with someone else.

[Helene West]

Sorry to hear of your angst, Target. I haven't cheated and I don't know if my hubby ever cheated on me and - I don't want to know.

Ten years ago our close friends with 2 adolescent kids filed for divorce. (the husband was the cheater in this case and the 14 yr old girl went with the mother and the 16 yrs old boy went with the father. So they became visitors to the home of the other parent until they were old enough to leave. But almost immediately the man had a new baby with the new love and I know the adolescent kids resented all the attention the baby got and were conflicted. After all aren't you a s**t if you resent a baby?)

When the above first occurred hubby and I were discussing it and I said to him short and sweet, "NEVER CONFESS". To me it's not just about 'forgiveness'. It's about the permanence of imagery. You will not get the image of your spouse screwing another person out of your mind. Some of the sting will go away after the years i'm sure but it will never be erased. "Spare me the imagery" is what I say!

We sometimes forget that we make vows not just to the other person but to the marriage as well. You're making vows to a tradition and institution. It's a slightly different way of seeing things and takes some of the highly charged personalness out of it when you remember you vowed to a lifestyle/tradition as well as to him or her. For those who adhere to one of the organized religions, I think this is easier as you're also making vows before God or a divine power that one believes in.

But what about the 'honesty' angle? Sometimes honesty can be a dagger. What if a baby or a young teenage girl are homely? Are you going to mention it to the parent or the girl? If one just can't/won't adhere to the vow (or code) one took, then get your rocks off being very mindful of diseases and pregnancy and be done with it as soon as possible and do not selfishly burden the spouse with your confession and clean up all clues.

I was lucky to have some deep conversations before marriage with my hubby. We both agreed that the foundation of our marriage would be kindness, not love which I consider ever-changing but kindness which I consider never-changing, and that the home was a place of refuge from the outside world where we could relax. My guess is your somewhere in your '40s. Between now and death how do you want to live? Do you want to grow old with her? Open marriage and multiple relationships are asking to be alone in old age to my way of thinking.

You're very smart and probably have a tendency to try and figure everything out yourself but why not even for a brief period speak to someone 'professional' just to prevent some of your conversations with your spouse from becoming a psychoanalysis session which probably won't help. I hope you come to have some peace very soon.

[Hym]

What another insightful, honest and powerful thread this is. I've never cheated, so I never looked at the thread, until I looked at the Newest Posts and read on.

I applaud your introspection and honesty, Target, for it is full of self-empowerment and growth. Your writing itself shows a high level of the soul searching that gives strength of character and affords the distance to really see what we do in our relationships, things almost impossible to see when we are so close. Distance, both naturally, physically, meditatively, consciously is important in the gift of relationships but it may be one of those attributes we only receive in the times we pass thru.

Crafting the openness of honoring your own desires and those of your intimates is a key to enjoying both, and living with the security of acceptance and acknowledgement that nurture us all. Not honoring that "savage" containment to be sexually active and emotionally engaged (and I do not defer to the common adage that men are not so..) with other women, while committed to the one you are with, is in itself an honorable thing for her, but it is also unnatural not to have faced it head on, something I can only say I've learned over the years, my moral character having very little to do with it.

You get no criticism from me on your path, as you have honored another by suppressing something you knew was no where near as valuable as the time you two spend together. I look back on the time I spent with my wife, and I know that I should have left her for about 10 years then come back to see if her deep need to explore relationships with other men was over by then. Me being hurt by her dating other men, just a few years in to US was a lack of understanding her needs as a whole person. But how could I have seen that so early on?

If I had the very early adult habit of going deeper into the discovery that the soul gets when taking every relationship right to the core of it's needs, then maybe I could have foreseen it all and prevented the pain, but who does that when we are so young? And even I, moral to a tee, could not have seen that there is a deeper morality, bound in service to others, that can only be found when we grow thru the richness of all the intensity that love brings with it. Introspection is good, even healthy, but allowing the self-criticism to go too deep sometimes doesn't solve a thing.

When I got over it and understood, I left her. Later on, when she chose to look me up, as did others, I saw that she had honored both of her desires to live her way honestly, especially with herself. Whatever self-imposed demons she embraced later on, those that eventually took her life, I see as a deeper indoctrination that her friends, her parents and a large part of a society drifting in a sea of loneliness, accepted as the only way out of the pain she thought she could not fight. Her problem was thinking that a moral man could solve anything that she could not solve herself, this the one vital thing we alone owe ourselves.

From one man to another I must say that it is a rarity for many others to hear this, but for me and all of my close friends, it is the norm. Strangers talk to me this way and I think that it is only because I've lived as a friend looking at the world thru their lives, and in listening I hear them come to conclusions, their solutions not mine, that always seem correct for them and for those in their lives.

Cudos, Brother.
Hym

[Bill Ryan]

An interesting human story, tiny and yet major, that connects with this thread.

Someone I know once found another woman's panties in her and her husband's clothes drawers.

She never mentioned it to him, ever.

Her view was that there was nothing to gain, and everything to lose. They'd been married for a long time, and she didn't want to risk upsetting what she felt was the practical stability of their relationship.

[Hym]

I was about to respond to Lisa's post, #109 above, when I realized it was made ages ago, on Nov.30th of 2011. I wonder what has happened since then, staying with that husband, "even though he is/was not so spiritual", despite the fact that she saw him as having "amazing insights" and who has "very high integrity", things I consider the qualities of a very spiritual person. I hope she listened to herself, because she has answered herself in many ways, to the affirmative.

I do have an objection to the inclusion of "not drinking alcohol or caffeine", which sounds like a 'jack mormon'* reference, as spiritual attributes, since I have friends who do both, and more to boot. The depth and openness of their honesty and introspection, as well as backing it all up with positive, supportive, self-sacrificing actions for others qualifies them as amongst the most spiritually responsive souls I have ever met. Maybe Lisa's views have changed or evolved over the years....only Lisa and her Hubby can tell.


*A 'jack mormon" is a reference to those who drink alcohol and caffeinated drinks in a religion that prohibits both. In this sense one 'jacked up', stimulated, by caffeine or whose system is depressed by drinking the whiskey brand called 'Jack Daniels'.

[TargeT]

Target as simplistic as this sounds, you have to make yourself happy.

I guess right now I'm just trying to figure out what the root cause of my feelings are, I'm being made unhappy by what, a social constraint on "how relationships are suppose to be"?

We are both older and she doesn't want to screw around, she wants to be polyamourus (have multiple loves, not just sex partners; and I was ok with this to a point, but sex pushed me over the edge beyond acceptance (and the fact that it was lied about)) so I don't think there's much "messy" stuff that would come along with this; though it is always a consideration I suppose (her tubes are tied as well so the preggo thing isn't a concern).

I also don't necessarily think a sex drive is something that is "grown up" out of; maybe the behavior you attach to it can mature but I'm having difficulty assigning morality to sex drive (when expressed in a healthy manor). But then I also don't think the sex drive is the MAIN focus at all here, more of an issue that I am focusing on because of my possessiveness and hurt over being lied to.

When she was first exploring these feelings she briefly wanted to try being a Dominatrix (we hang out with some VERY interesting people down here... and one of them sort of got her thinking about this). She's since decided that's not her thing, but I think being a more sexual/intimate person IS her thing; and I can't help but think I should be celebrating that not berating it.



Sorry to hear of your angst, Target. I haven't cheated and I don't know if my hubby ever cheated on me and - I don't want to know.

I don't think this is as simple as just a "slip" of infidelity; I think she has come to a major decision in her life that this is how she will be happy (Polyamorism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory))


Polyamory (from Greek πολύ poly, "many, several", and Latin amor, "love") is the practice of, or desire for, intimate relationships with more than one partner, with the knowledge of all partners involved.[1][2] It has been described as "consensual, ethical, and responsible non-monogamy." [3][4][5] People who identify as polyamorous reject the view that sexual and relational exclusivity are necessary for deep, committed, long-term loving relationships.[6]

Polyamory has come to be an umbrella term for various forms of non-monogamous, multi-partner relationships (including polyamory) or non-exclusive sexual or romantic relationships,[7][8][9] reflecting the choices and philosophies of the individuals involved, but with recurring themes or values, such as love, intimacy, honesty, integrity, equality, communication, and commitment.


You will not get the image of your spouse screwing another person out of your mind.

Oh I'm fighting this battle as we speak, lovely how my brain brings these things up at the strangest moments... but I still want to know WHY it matters so much now? She had 5 kids when I met her, obviously not a virgin; why do I care so much that she might find happiness in bed with me and someone else at times?

She said nothing needs to change in our relationship if she could continue to fulfill needs I don't meet out side of us; I said I'd rather try and meet her needs myself so we are trying that now.


We sometimes forget that we make vows not just to the other person but to the marriage as well. You're making vows to a tradition and institution. It's a slightly different way of seeing things and takes some of the highly charged personalness out of it when you remember you vowed to a lifestyle/tradition as well as to him or her. For those who adhere to one of the organized religions, I think this is easier as you're also making vows before God or a divine power that one believes in.

I don't know that this is a good line of reasoning, doing things because they've been done? What is a vow or a promise? doesn't that indicate we stay static? I know I've changed, how can I expect my partner to not change as well?


But what about the 'honesty' angle? Sometimes honesty can be a dagger.

The conversations we've had haven't been comfortable, but I think we both feel better that we both feel like we can be more honest now... I guess I'd always rather know than not know, hell I've got "knowledge is power" tattoo'd on my arm ;)


I was lucky to have some deep conversations before marriage with my hubby. We both agreed that the foundation of our marriage would be kindness, not love which I consider ever-changing but kindness which I consider never-changing, and that the home was a place of refuge from the outside world where we could relax.

I think that's a great philosophy, might steal that ;)


My guess is your somewhere in your '40s. Between now and death how do you want to live? Do you want to grow old with her? Open marriage and multiple relationships are asking to be alone in old age to my way of thinking.

I'm 38 for a bit longer ;)

I don't think Polyamor is quite like what your thinking; think less sleazy 1980's bar **** and more egalitarian self aware decision making. I could see us growing old together (I want to, but I maybe not as realistic as she is, how can I promise what I'll be in 10 years, or even 2??), we both are pretty out of the box people; I am afraid that she would choose someone over me, but that's me thinking in relational monogamous terms.. not polyamorous terms. I'm trying to shift my thinking to include her approach, I guess because I DO want to stay with her and I DO want her to be happy. She's blessed with an amazing body and why shouldn't she go out and enjoy herself while she's still in her sexual prime. Do I want her to stay with me and resent that I have conditions on it (conditions that make little logical sense)? I don't own her & I don't want her to feel like I do.




You're very smart and probably have a tendency to try and figure everything out yourself but why not even for a brief period speak to someone 'professional' just to prevent some of your conversations with your spouse from becoming a psychoanalysis session which probably won't help. I hope you come to have some peace very soon.

Seems like if I went to a professional all I would receive is psychoanalysis ? Our conversations are difficult but us being honest with each-other and working through this together I think is more important and not something we cannot handle on our own; but thanks for the suggestion.

I'm really just venting here so I can work through the process more, because I think I'm the one who needs to do the most work on this topic; at least currently.

This incident of infidelity is a symptom of selfishness on her part and me not being emotionally available for her (obviously it's a bit more complex than that, but that is a decent short summary).





You get no criticism from me on your path, as you have honored another by suppressing something you knew was no where near as valuable as the time you two spend together.

I think this is a lot of my hurt, but I haven't communicated that to her well, in fact the tone of these posts is NOT how I am speaking to her currently... I'm deathly afraid of saying anything positive about polyamorous behavior just yet.. it's too fresh and I have too much anger with her currently... But I do think it's something that I need to fully explore so that if nothing else I can confidantly say I like or do not like it.

Thanks for the insight.




An interesting human story, tiny and yet major, that connects with this thread.

Someone I know once found another woman's panties in her and her husband's clothes drawers.

She never mentioned it to him, ever.

Her view was that there was nothing to gain, and everything to lose. They'd been married for a long time, and she didn't want to risk upsetting what she felt was the practical stability of their relationship.

I wonder if there is nothing to gain, or maybe there's a lot to gain?

Well I'm going to try and find out; both myself and my wife have this new addiction: personal challenge.

If I'm afraid of something or something is uncomfortable that's EXACTLY where I need to go and sit in that space and find out why, or over come it. I think I'd always rather know, than not know.

[Helene West]

If before you married her, if I had been your friend and you told me you were considering marrying a female with 5 kids from another guy/s and who was considering being a dominatrix I would have shaken you and said, 'don't do it..!!!" It would have seemed so masochistic for a guy to do so.

Not everything is a 'marriage' issue. There are 'character' issues as well. To me you sound more influenced by her than her by you. Are there minors still living at home? That makes a difference as well in my book.

You said,
"... but I think being a more sexual/intimate person IS her thing; and I can't help but think I should be celebrating that not berating it..."
Celebrate that she wants to be with several men? sounds new agey brainwashing to me...

You said,
"... She's blessed with an amazing body and why shouldn't she go out and enjoy herself while she's still in her sexual prime. Do I want her to stay with me and resent that I have conditions on it (conditions that make little logical sense)? I don't own her & I don't want her to feel like I do..."

So every guy that gets married who has ripped abs should forego his vows because he has an "amazing" body and should not be wasting it on monogomy but be showing it off to other females to hook up otherwise it's a waste? Every female with nice boobs shouldn't bother taking vows because it would be a waste to just be dedicated to one man seeing them?

She'll screw around for adulation of her 'amazing' body until she starts hitting her late '40s when her bod will start changing. Then life will give her a wake-up call and she'll panic and be more susceptible to monogamy only because there won't be as many takers. Will 'ole Target be waiting in the wings for her to finish her narcissistic adventures and hope she will finally love and cherish him?

I'll shut up now and be on my way as I'm not identifying with much of yours or her way of thinking and I will come across sounding negative when I had wanted initially to sound supportive. I wish you the very best.

[Hym]

I sometimes forget the soulful value of some here on Avalon, until I am reminded by the beauty of those like Helene and Others. I am grateful for the constant value given and received.



Yes, to me the entirety of this subject is the lack of honesty from one mate to another. Helene, as is her gift, puts it all into perspective. Since we have gone there, and it is all very good to do, I'll add what I can to support TargeT's insight and highly responsible outlook, especially given all he has shared with us.


To the point, there is no replacement or adjustment that can be made for wide differences in integrity and nothing much can be done to bridge a gap of soul awareness that the two have. I beg to differ, my friend, that this woman is any more advanced and together than you in this one area where we all should have a clear sight of it's presence. Quite the opposite, and this is a judgement of the how the truth was revealed to you. Here are some insights we can share with you, all based on hard won experiences we have earned.

Why did TargeT put it all out in this thread called "Cheating"? His answer lives in his choice of the thread. It was not just for us friends to give him back some supportive, maybe insightful and hard truths to help him get thru this in the best way possible. He could have made or found a thread called "Support" or anything else. But you didn't.

Skipping over the lack of honesty is denying your own value. If there are other things you think you need to change in yourself, whatever they may be, it misses the subject of your own truth and your humanity to deny the hurt, a hurt you did not place on someone else, but the hurt you have endured. The quicker you see this is the quicker you get on with living beyond the pain and the anger, both things that are not worth the attention after you recognize their place in your growth and have learned, in your own way, to use them as incentives to live a happier life.


Adapting in the ways you have described, in what seems a very commendable way as you are now doing, is maybe the most dishonest thing you can do to yourself. I am not advocating anything but amicable resolution, because the kindness you put out in dissolving the dishonesty-yours-not hers (something only she can do), as it lives in your life now, will supportively present itself to you as you move on, in unexpected and gratifying ways, guaranteed.

Dishonesty is always painful and it is wrong, unnatural and hurtful to all involved. I didn't state this obvious truth because I was impressed by whatever depth of the process you were revealing, and it is honorable. Value that! However, it is very superficial and self-defeating to see others truths via the vehicle of your own martyrdom. There are much easier ways to exercise your humanity and strengthen your heart then getting your value trampled on by someone you entrusted so much heart and soul in. There is no excuse for that. Don't create excuses for them finding their way into your thoughts. Dishonesty cannot be adapted to. It, like honesty itself, is.

The deeper, more honest, self-directed questions may not be why he didn't see this divergence in ethics and morality between his wife and himself, but why he gives her an over thought out series of passes just to keep her. This is what must be faced directly by our friend.

The greatest of gifts in life sometimes have a price that challenge our self worth. Can we let go of that prize, that comfort, that beauty, that job, that woman, that friend, if it demands we overlook the truth? I hope so, because letting it go may be the only way to value something that even dishonest mates cannot disagree about. It's something I have learned living amongst people of this age, something that defines their place in the spaces in between, where the soul has value that is recorded somewhere in the song of the timeless memories we all, at one time, have access to.


The fact is she was already gone a while back..

And, we're not even talking about the kids.

May you both do well moving on

[TargeT]

Dishonesty cannot be adapted to. It, like honesty itself, is.


But I've lied out of panic, I've lied to "save" someones feelings... Yes the dishonesty was the knife that is still twisting; but baby, bathwater... toss it all out?

7 years of peaks and valleys, I see a lot of it as good; I'm not so sure of her perspective anymore but she's adament that I was never being left behind, just added to.. she has stopped speaking to "the other" (though the circumstances make it almost have to be that way) and we have had many deep; and often quite conflicting discussons on our feelings and how we react or precieve what we think the other is saying... and how often it's completely different than the intended message (I think this is a great step forward for us in communication at least).

If nothing else I am going to stick through this, she knows nothing about this as I haven't been able to hedge my strong "not at all" stance to her yet.. I really want to work this through so there is no resentment if I agree to this very unorthadox step forward... but at the same time this is the woman I've drank Pee with in my bathroom in Alaska... I don't see how I'll find another gem like her ;)... and not just because I could convince her to drink pee with me... haha!


We just had another interesting day (day 6: post honesty) and there is a lot of anger and suppressed resentment on both sides due to lack of communication. I think if nothing else we will both gain communication skills that are obviously needed.

I liked the rest of your post as well, I just felt like pulling out the dishonesty part and saying I do not see her as a dishonest person.... more a person who has seperation anxiety and saw a mistake that could end what she feared to loose... if that fear was not based in love, we will find out; but I do not think it was just fear alone.

I do think she loves me and even if she wants to involve someone else, in her mind I don't think she see's me as anything less. This maybe the hardest part I am having to reconcile with, that I can still be me with a partner that is not "just mine". Even just reading that makes the answer seem obvious.. yea? I don't own anybody... I'm not even sure how much of my body is my own....


Interesting times!

[Flash]

It could be interesting, if you have time, to revise the threads that have been done about women throughout the years, where you were writing. I remember asking you to ask you wife about how she sees whatever you were writing, because to me, it made no "woman" sense at times.

We all have to learn sometimes through hurts and hard lessons. Even when we were shown or told years before.

I am not the one to give any advice on any couple relationships, having been quite deficient in those myself.

But one thing I understand about relationships is that knowledge of oneself, openess to the other and mostly paramount is love between the two. And for me, love can be share and given to many, but time cannot.

To build a relation takes time and constant gardening, throughout life. With a polyamorous relationship, time for gardening is often missing. Then a choice has to be made. Otherwise depth of the relation will be missing - my opinion.

[TargeT]

To build a relation takes time and constant gardening, throughout life. With a polyamorous relationship, time for gardening is often missing. Then a choice has to be made. Otherwise depth of the relation will be missing - my opinion.

This has been the only solid counter I can think of, and the more I think of it the more important it is... yes, time is very minute as we know it; and I just don't see how a third person fits into a relationship that is working well, I DO see that our relationship was not working well for her and I had a role in this, and have things to work on myself. However, I do not see; aside from time and the limited resource it is being taken into consideration, why this topic is so emotional that I have gone places I've never been before with myself.

Why it's shaken the very core image I have of who I am, made me question things I've never questioned before. A very powerful FEELING situation.

[Hym]

Throw it all out? Not what I see, what with the way we and our intimates are all connected....past intense memories living in some parts of our present loving ties, a few mutual friends, moving away from inter-dependency, habits shared together, respect of each other's times alone, the uniqueness we loved in each other.....all hopefully evolving into no more need to accept the lack of will power or absence of self-discovery on the part of a partner.

I understand why people are not enjoying monogamy, but that has little to do with evolving and being a more loving person. Making a connection with an agreement of mutual, loving, interdependency and then "evolving" into poly-partnerships is simply deceitful, an oxymoron, and it certainly isn't making anyone a more whole person.

Describing love as owning or selfish or possessive is not accurate and merely a meme used to diffuse the power of love. Geez! Desensitize myself to connections? Why would I accept cheating from a woman when I don't do it or accept it when men I know do it to women, or when a woman wants to date me without being honest and ending it with her man? That has irked me from the first days of dating and it hasn't stopped. What's the difference? Hey....let's both be dumb together.....No way. I choose the affirmative of mutual respect.

Denying the power of the human experience with one love alone is another deception laid upon humans and it is cloaked in the external, time-stealing facade of desire, intentionally meant to destroy the power of monogamous intimacy.

I was thinking of the slow loss of the connections my wife and I had as she left, me and my son, and being still enough to look at her and enjoying those things I know I loved in her....and I never wanted to hear of her doing poorly, only enjoying her life and having love that helped her along her way. In the end the most I have left of her is the one last kiss we shared in her hospital bed, not knowing or wanting to know if there was a boyfriend waiting to say goodbye to her also, when we left that house of death.

.....remembering all of those things, and how I chose not to be abused in any way, life has never returned to any of the pain I felt all of those years ago, before I left her and she returned on honest terms, well, honest in terms of sexual monogamy at least.

Of course I would be remiss if I didn't note that even with that renewed honesty from her, she ended up hiding a more tragic dishonesty, with her hidden drug abuse during her pregnancy, that led to my son's severe dyslexia-turned by his will power alone into some unique gifts, and the self-destructive abuse of alcohol which led to her death.

It is hard for someone holding on to such deep emotional dishonesty not to find another avenue for some other deceit, manifesting in self-destructive or aggressive, revenge-fueled activity. Present anger tells of a guilt whose origins were fostered in a fear of being rejected in her formative years, before the presence of any children. However, again, only she can unlock that cell door and free herself to grow beyond the pain. Some say that love does this for others, risking it all-beyond any personal connections we have, and I agree, but it is a much higher love and not part of the agreement we make with each other, as it is a special form of self-sacrifice that goes beyond what's expected. I would advise not to go there, while in this present state of emotional intensity, if you ever so choose.

None of this is easy and asking or suggesting anyone other than myself to move forward one way or another, by prompting a love to face the origins of it's own lack of honesty probably won't happen. It is a path with few rewards or clear means of traveling to positive ends. All that can be hoped for is the power of trusting what you feel as real, while almost all else is not direct and certainly not alive with mutual respect, as you have told.

You do know yourself and I do see some growth coming from your taking this path of some sort of reconciliation, but this is the least recommended path in learning something you did not instigate or plan. Most of the intimacy and affection you need will be questioned, withheld, and even attacked.

Anger and resentment is best understood and resolved at the distance that only the power of self acknowledgement can give.
All of the best for the both of you, and may only insight and strength of character be gained by any children in the presence of both of you.

[heretogrow]

Dear Target,
I think what I hear you saying about your relationship with your wife is that you yourself have not always shown the most physical, emotional and soulful aspects of your love for her when you felt that she may have needed it most. In this respect, now that she has shared with you what means she thinks she has found to make her life happy, you are willing to consider trying to reconcile with her wishes and add this new dimension to your marriage. In a sense you are saying you both are not perfect and you are trying to face this and own it as mature adults. Mentally, that makes sense. And it is very honorable to attempt to be understanding when someone honestly tells what they feel will make your marriage work.

But please be quite honest with yourself. You are an insightful, reflective and intelligent man. What I hear from your anger, resentment and confusion that you feel from her cheating, is that you wish that the person she could share true intimacy, explore together and find satisfaction and grow with is you. You are considering her exploring this but deep down you want to figure out why these feelings and this opportunity for growth are not happening between just the two of you inside your own relationship.

You are already aware, from the hurt that you feel, that this is not right for you. But you feel you love her enough to try to reconcile with her request. I am just trying to understand if this is where you are coming from. I may have misinterpreted what you are trying to express. But from what I see if I am understanding you correctly, you are almost letting her do her thing, all the while hoping deep in your heart that she will realize that what you two have I real and she will become committed once again to your relationship.

It is kind of like that saying, "If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, it is yours. If it doesn't, it never was" Since we are dealing with people here, add complexities of relationships, this saying doesn't truly fit, but you get my gist. We don't own each other, but when we love each other and want to remain close we definitely consider our spouse our 'other half'.

My biggest concern for you, is that in trying this, you are opening yourself up to the possibility that she may find someone else and grow closer to them, fulfilling more than just physical needs. It seems to me, and please this is just an observation, that you will be selling your chances of rekindling that true intimacy between you short. While your willingness to experiment with this seems unselfish and admirable, it may become way to emotionally loaded in the end, and it may backfire, creating much more pain for you than you now realize.

I am not trying to sway you either way. I am not married and in a committed relationship. Cheating has crossed my mind. In fact it has been on my mind a lot lately. I have opened up to find my own answers and thus stumbled on this thread this morning. Synchronicity...I know this is so hard for you. My only advice is to be honest with her and to be brutally honest with yourself. I don't expect it will be easy but it is a chance for soul growth. Much love and best of luck to you!

Julia

[TargeT]

I'll shut up now and be on my way as I'm not identifying with much of yours or her way of thinking and I will come across sounding negative when I had wanted initially to sound supportive. I wish you the very best.

well you aren't privy to the whole situation either, I've shared a lot more than I thought I would but am still carefully editing I suppose which leaves room for the imagination to fill in.


we have never been officially married, I call her my wife and treat her as such; she wears my grandmothers wedding ring but I don't have a ring on. everything in this thread is a culmination of 6 years of experience, none of this happened when we first met, in fact I'd say she's a completely different person from the one I met in Alaska, though she shares some of the same attributes. she doesn't want to "whore around" she wants to have more deep relationships than just me (for some reason I think the "whoring around" might be easier to deal with).

The fact that I think she should live her life to the fullest and not curtail it for me is my own personal thought on her and her history; not a widely applicable statement for every relationship. we are all "very different" and when we mix "very different's" together we get some strange things at times.

I live on a very interesting island, adultery and promiscuity are RAMPANT and alternative lifestyles are very acceptable here; I'm sure this is what kick-started this situation but I don't feel like it was anything but a catalyst for what was already there.




Dear Target,
I think what I hear you saying about your relationship with your wife is that you yourself have not always shown the most physical, emotional and soulful aspects of your love for her when you felt that she may have needed it most.

I agree, I over committed and made life changes I wasn't fully happy with, then I got very internalized for a long time as I tried to deal with that, which made me ignore her a lot more than anyone deserves


you wish that the person she could share true intimacy, explore together and find satisfaction and grow with is you. You are considering her exploring this but deep down you want to figure out why these feelings and this opportunity for growth are not happening between just the two of you inside your own relationship.

yes, absolutely; and it makes me very sad that this isn't the case. She has told me that I would be the "main" relationship, but i'm not sure I'm ok with even that.


But from what I see if I am understanding you correctly, you are almost letting her do her thing, all the while hoping deep in your heart that she will realize that what you two have I real and she will become committed once again to your relationship.

in her mind it's not a question of committing to the relationship, it's just that she wants more love partners (especially to include sex) she's a very strong Leo and I feel like she is over correcting a bit due to a life of repression (strict religious up bringing, felt she was ugly while growing up, I think she has become a much stronger person in the last few years, but this situation is also the result of that "strength"). One of my favorite sayings as a young man was something along the lines of "church girls are the most fun"...and now I"m in a relationship with one I guess.

I don't feel like I have the right to ask her not to do her own thing either, I'm trying to see if I'm ok with it; i guess.


I. We don't own each other, but when we love each other and want to remain close we definitely consider our spouse our 'other half'.

I usually say better half, but yes, I completely agree.



My biggest concern for you, is that in trying this, you are opening yourself up to the possibility that she may find someone else and grow closer to them, fulfilling more than just physical needs.

I guess I wasn't clear, she is most definately fulfilling more than just physical needs, the physical part is important but she seems to love this other person (or at least will admit to "having feelings") and I think that's what she wants, multiple loves (polyamor). Her reasoning is that we both bring different things to her; and of course that makes sense as well. It just feels like betrayal still, but that's probably because it's been less than a week since I finally found everything out.



It seems to me, and please this is just an observation, that you will be selling your chances of rekindling that true intimacy between you short. While your willingness to experiment with this seems unselfish and admirable, it may become way to emotionally loaded in the end, and it may backfire, creating much more pain for you than you now realize.

I feel the same way, but she assures me it's not like that.... I don't see how it COULDN'T be like that.



I am not trying to sway you either way. I am not married and in a committed relationship. Cheating has crossed my mind. In fact it has been on my mind a lot lately. I have opened up to find my own answers and thus stumbled on this thread this morning. Synchronicity...I know this is so hard for you. My only advice is to be honest with her and to be brutally honest with yourself. I don't expect it will be easy but it is a chance for soul growth. Much love and best of luck to you!

Julia

Thank you,

I find I'll often pursue a topic just because it's a socially excepted norm that makes no sense (I drank pee, I wore uranium ore, etc..), I feel like this maybe one of those topics but the emotional drain is very hard to manage right now... I'm hopping that is just because of the lies that seem to have now stopped.

I still feel like us working together is the right idea, if it falls apart later at least I'll know I gave it my all.

Though I do hope that us working together means it will just be us in the future... who knows.

[Krist]

Good luck my friend!
I know two couples that have attempted the journey you have embarked on.....Lets just say it didn't work out the way they had hoped.

My heart aches for both of you. Taking on a ready made family is hard enough. Weathering hurricanes while a storm of your emotions rages on as well.

I have said this before ,You are a good man, in my opinion. Very brave of you to expose your self this way, man to man with my heart.

As Flash noted, your clearly having some growth. I can not see you wanting this on the outside but maybe you are asking for it on a level that can't
be detected from here. Sure looks like a "have your cake & the whole damn plate".

Loving the lot of you all there. Referring to you as my friends.

[Valerie Villars]

I'll say it again. You have to make yourself happy. Generally that means you follow your heart and not your head. It doesn't matter what the rest of the world or island is doing and someone else's idea of what they are happy to live with in reality has nothing to do with what you decide you can live with. You don't have to apologize or justify to anyone. Just feel what is right in your heart and go for it.

Best to you Target. And for what it's worth, from your photo, I think you are a very handsome man.

[DNA]

Hi TargeT, I feel for you bro. But on the other hand I gotta say F that.
In the midst of your amazing bravery in admitting your situation I will respond in brutal honesty.
One should avoid dating American women especially when looking at having children and getting married. And when dating American women one should understand that through years of Hollywood programming and talk show enabling, American women have come to the conclusion that they are entitled to constant "passion".
When referencing Aristotle's four types of love we have Philia (Brotherly Love, Freindship Love), Storge (Family love, Parent Child Love) Agape (unconditional god type love) and Eros (romantic love).
Many relationships start out with an intense Eros that can not be sustained, and this will hopefully transform into a type of Philia or Storge or even Agape.
But even if that is the case the world is full of unrealistic mother ######"s who think they deserve to be basked in "EROS" now and forever. Most of these folks have been programmed by Hollywood, Sally Jesse Rapheal and Oprah Winfrey. There is an unrealistic entitlement thing going on here, and right now American women are front and center for thinking they gotta get theirs. In my opinion this is some Tavistock Institute/George Soros sh!t that has been in place for a while to help destroy the American Family and women have been the main target.

If your wife is presently engaged in this paradigm my advice would be "to get the f#ck" out of there.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYNFHS8gG6s

[DNA]

For a more esoteric reason why you shouldn't continue to be a part of this I will bold a quote from one of the wisest posters to ever grace our forum. The ever so insightful Dawn. This post is on this very thread three pages in. It should help to illuminate why and how your wives lovers are basically feeding off of YOUR energy YOUR life force. F that indeed.



I would like to take this discussion down the rabbit hole a bit. How you experience sex depends a lot on how aware you are and at what depth.

When people have sex, they mingle their energies. If orgasm happens during sex, this can be even more so. After a sexual relationship there are nearly always energetic ties that remain between the couple. Any seer or psychic worth their salt can see these attachments, sometimes 20 or 30 years later. They can be removed with focus and intention, however if you are in an ongoing relationship, you will not be able to remove them for more than a short while. Once these energetic ties are formed, there is a sharing of patterns and emotions. That means that if your sexual partner is depressed, you will feel dragged down emotionally, even if you aren't seeing them. So, if you decide to have sex with someone else while you are in a relationship, you are essentially inviting the 3rd person into the relationship.

Even for people who are only aware of the animal lust part of sexuality, an energy bond is still formed. The unaware person is still affected by this bond... whether they know it or not. I was a professional psychic and healer for more than 20 years. During that time I helped many people disconnect energy chords to their old lovers... all of them felt immediate relief and a lightness of spirit. Be aware what you are doing when you choose to have a sacred energetic exchange with another.

In my long life I have realized that much of the time, when there is sexual attraction, there are some kind of non-organic life forms egging it on. These plan to feed on the potential sexual energy that is generated during union. I have had the interesting experience of being in a class with 200 other adults who remained in sacred space while exploring the subject of human sexual energy. The result of these classes was that I saw, and eliminated, my relationship with one or more of these entities. I had been infected by the man who molested me as a child. Any time you choose to have sex with someone you exchange a lot more than bodily fluids... It is important to be aware of the spiritual clarity of your partner.

I am not judging any of the posts here, however I would like to dangle a carrot for some of you. Are you aware that true sexual union can be sacred beyond your wildest expectations? It is completely possible (I have had personal experience) to have an orgasm which lasts many many hours without stopping. In this type of sex, life force energy can be used to rejuvenate the bodies of the lovers, and to achieve high spiritual states.

This type of sacred sexual union is not really possible without deep trust, and that takes time to build up in a relationship. If you desire more than one partner, it is important that you do nothing to break this trust. That is difficult considering that most people are unaware of their deep unconscious conditioning until it is challenged. This means that your partner may think it is OK for you to have intimate energy exchange with another, until you do and they find themselves deeply wounded.

If your sexual relationship has gone gray, perhaps you are not stepping up to the next level of spirituality and awareness which allows you to move into a new frequency. PS: I suggest any of Mantak Chia's books.

[TargeT]

the world is full of unrealistic mother ######"s who think they deserve to be basked in "EROS" now and forever. Most of these folks have been programmed by Hollywood, Sally Jesse Rapheal and Oprah Winfrey. There is an unrealistic entitlement thing going on here, and right now American women are front and center for thinking they gotta get theirs. In my opinion this is some Tavistock Institute/George Soros sh!t that has been in place for a while to help destroy the American Family and women have been the main target. [/QUOTE]

I've felt a lot of the same feelings, she even admits her action was selfish (I'd add extremely on there, but that's me putting words in).



If your wife is presently engaged in this paradigm my advice would be "to get the f#ck" out of there.

She is not currently and told me she wouldn't while we work on things, though I later found out she can't since he's physically unavailable till October or something (at which point he moves back to this tiny island... but he's scared of the west end where I live so hopefully I wont see him); which maybe is unfair but made her commitment to "us" seem a bit less.

we are actively working on this together, mostly discussions about why I feel the way I do because I'm being a bit hard on myself at the moment... She is afraid to commit to just me because a) she doesn't want to be a liar later (very honest) and b) she's worried we would go back to the same level of relationship that she was unhappy with.

I'm not ready to just drop everything because I'm upset and walk away from 6 years and a family; I think we all deserve more than that.



For a more esoteric reason why you shouldn't continue to be a part of this I will bold a quote from one of the wisest posters to ever grace our forum. The ever so insightful Dawn. This post is on this very thread three pages in. It should help to illuminate why and how your wives lovers are basically feeding off of YOUR energy YOUR life force. F that indeed.



I would like to take this discussion down the rabbit hole a bit. How you experience sex depends a lot on how aware you are and at what depth.

When people have sex, they mingle their energies. If orgasm happens during sex, this can be even more so. After a sexual relationship there are nearly always energetic ties that remain between the couple. Any seer or psychic worth their salt can see these attachments, sometimes 20 or 30 years later. They can be removed with focus and intention, however if you are in an ongoing relationship, you will not be able to remove them for more than a short while. Once these energetic ties are formed, there is a sharing of patterns and emotions. That means that if your sexual partner is depressed, you will feel dragged down emotionally, even if you aren't seeing them. So, if you decide to have sex with someone else while you are in a relationship, you are essentially inviting the 3rd person into the relationship.

Even for people who are only aware of the animal lust part of sexuality, an energy bond is still formed. The unaware person is still affected by this bond... whether they know it or not. I was a professional psychic and healer for more than 20 years. During that time I helped many people disconnect energy chords to their old lovers... all of them felt immediate relief and a lightness of spirit. Be aware what you are doing when you choose to have a sacred energetic exchange with another.

In my long life I have realized that much of the time, when there is sexual attraction, there are some kind of non-organic life forms egging it on. These plan to feed on the potential sexual energy that is generated during union. I have had the interesting experience of being in a class with 200 other adults who remained in sacred space while exploring the subject of human sexual energy. The result of these classes was that I saw, and eliminated, my relationship with one or more of these entities. I had been infected by the man who molested me as a child. Any time you choose to have sex with someone you exchange a lot more than bodily fluids... It is important to be aware of the spiritual clarity of your partner.

I am not judging any of the posts here, however I would like to dangle a carrot for some of you. Are you aware that true sexual union can be sacred beyond your wildest expectations? It is completely possible (I have had personal experience) to have an orgasm which lasts many many hours without stopping. In this type of sex, life force energy can be used to rejuvenate the bodies of the lovers, and to achieve high spiritual states.

This type of sacred sexual union is not really possible without deep trust, and that takes time to build up in a relationship. If you desire more than one partner, it is important that you do nothing to break this trust. That is difficult considering that most people are unaware of their deep unconscious conditioning until it is challenged. This means that your partner may think it is OK for you to have intimate energy exchange with another, until you do and they find themselves deeply wounded.

If your sexual relationship has gone gray, perhaps you are not stepping up to the next level of spirituality and awareness which allows you to move into a new frequency. PS: I suggest any of Mantak Chia's books.


a very good point, I'll have to consider this angle as well.

[heretogrow]

Target,
I truly wish you the strength and confidence to explore what you feel you need to do. All relationships are as complex as the people engaged in them so don't take this as sage advice, I will just share my experience and please don't think this is how I think your might go. My husband and I tried this some 25-30 years ago. It didn't work for me although he was happy seeing other people. We grew apart and ended up living in the same house but yet living parallel lives. It was excruciatingly painful to me when what I really wanted most was for him to want all of those experiences with me.

Because of the emotional distance that grew between us, I eventually just needed to find peace and I faced the fact that I was not the one for him. He lived on to never be truly committed to any one love. When he passed away in 2008 I could honestly say that we had spent the latter years becoming great friends. Once I let go of my projections and my expectations of him, I got to know and experience the true human being he really was. We accepted each others flaws and reconciled that we just could not make life work in marriage. But we really grew to love and appreciate each other as friends.

He would actually call me and complain about the other women he dated. A week before he passed away he called to tell me that his girlfriend called him by he ex'z name when they were making love. I laughed and told him karma was a bitch! When he passed away I was grateful for the fact that we had thrown out all the social mores and decided to create a semi-life together that revolved around truth and understanding for one another. Our marriage was doomed but our friendship that developed afterward was very genuine.

In order to get to that point it took many years of forgiving and letting go. I really loved the man. I wanted to grow old together and raise our kids together. In the end it made me a better person. Although if anyone would have told me that at the time I would have not agreed. I never really found love until after he had been gone a few years. I would venture to say he had a hand in that as well.

Here and now we don't always get to see the big picture. Sometimes we stumble upon the reasons why years later after we are much older. Then they make sense.

My grandmother was full of clichés. Her top three on relationships were 1) Love makes the world go round 2) You have to try on your shoes before you buy them and 3) You play with fire and your biscuits get burnt. It took me years to figure out the wisdom in these little clichés.

In the end all you really have is yourself and your own understanding of things. But it is worth it to try to make peace with yourself and the one you love. The hardest part is finding that honesty that leads to peace. It can be both painful and rewarding. But it is the past. Right now you have the present and many opportunities to do what you feel you must do.

Thanks for posting on this thread. Like I mentioned before cheating had been on my mind. I think I'll have a sit down with my man tonight and try to talk things through.

I maight not have reached this conclusion if had not followed these recent posts. So THANK YOU to all!

Julia

[Hym]

The Guess Who, a Canadian band, made a song called "American Woman". I understood it, besides it's great beat, when it came out. It rang true then and I do my best not to play it around others because it is not true for at least a small group of American woman who have stood in their own power, internal beauty and balance, unaffected by all of the b.s. programming they have to endure growing up.

Most women here in the states don't have a clue as to how many men look at them in such a soulful way, even as they fly from one superficial relationship to another, desensitizing themselves to all of crap they are absorbing, taking classes to deal with their inner children just so they can become as lame as the jerks they screw. Did you ever wonder why god made batteries? Could it have just been a compassionate gesture to all of the women out there, or what?

In that vein I have a smile on my face when I hear my son tell me about meeting some girl's parents in another country, as he was raised with a heart centered respect telling him that how he treats himself must be the basis of any relationship he develops. Hell, I have a friend who was adamant in not introducing me to any women in the largest town nearby, so negative is her experience with them.

I've said this before and it bears repeating...
If you do not massage each other every day, or at least every other day, and do so with an intimacy that develops a deep knowledge with your partner's body you should not be allowed to have sex. Why isn't that a prerequisite for getting a marriage license, something I find not worth the paper it's written on anyway, let alone for the continuation of any sexual relationship. Who the F##K are you people anyway?

I look at many lives and I say W. T. F. are you doing to yourself, treating yourself this way, bending over backwards for such a demeaning amount of attention. You are worth so much more, but not if you don't believe it enough to know it is true. Hey, say it to yourself and hear yourself say it. You have been lied to in so many ways, why would you deny yourself creating your own reality beyond those inhumane narratives?

Yes, I've known the simplicity of Dawn's observations and experiences about the connections that intimacy makes since I can recall seeing it in others as a little kid. I knew when married couples were cheating on each other. I saw it and wondered why they would play the games of hiding it and I saw the pain and insecurities it caused their husbands and wives. The connections with their hidden others, mainly people in their daily lives, was out in the open as far as I could plainly see. The training to desensitize people must begin very early on in their lives. Sad.

By the way, take that so-called chi expert's books for the hints about energy that they are, not the truths they aren't. I knew a long time student of his who left him because of his constant habit of screwing his female students, and this well known saxophone player got into a lot of detail about the great degree of insensitivities he showed. Yes, apply that to the validity of his so-called insights and methods. Walk the Walk, MF'er, or not.

That reminds me of two men I know who bragged to me about how many women they had sex with. My immediate response to both of them was "Are you really that bad of a lover that you can't keep a woman satisfied beyond your pretend intimacy?" (Actually it was more vulgar than that, but you get the idea). I couldn't understand bragging about any of that and their responses, both telling me that they were now with only one woman, bore out the truth of it's ignorance.

DNA, not a fan of that music but because of it's truth I loved it and rocked out to it. Truth cannot ever be denied, whatever form it takes. Thanks.

[DNA]

The Guess Who, a Canadian band, made a song called "American Woman". I understood it, besides it's great beat, when it came out. It rang true then and I do my best not to play it around others because it is not true for at least a small group of American woman who have stood in their own power, internal beauty and balance, unaffected by all of the b.s. programming they have to endure growing up.
You are so in my head. :)
I almost posted that song, as a matter of fact it was a tuff choice between that and the Korn song, but the Korn song had the angst I wanted so there you go.
The Guess Who song is supposed to be a metaphor about the United States in general but I was willing to go for the literal translation as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uf6EY2BZBw



By the way, take Mantak Chia's books for the hints about energy that they are, not the truths. I knew a long time student of his who left him because of his constant habit of screwing his female students, and this well known saxophone player got into a lot of detail about the great degree of insensitivities he showed. Yes, apply that to the validity of his so-called insights and methods. Walk the Walk, MF'er, or not.
I have no doubt you are probably right here.
Men in general and women are not made the same. Men have always been dogs, but they are kept in restraint due to women being the moral compass of their community. There is a story in Greek literature about a King who could not be swayed by Dionysis the god of debauchery. The King was offered every kind of luxary and was able to not sway, until Dionysis offered him unlimited sex with as many women as he wanted, to this the King was willing to give up his Kingdom and follow Dionysis.
Men and women are not created the same, and men can function more or less and not cheat due to the fact that woman as a rule through out history have as a whole not lent themselves out so.
My point here is that although Mantak Chia is a man, his books convey truths he was given and taught in the tradition of Taoism a very ancient and in my mind correct eastern philosophy. But, Mantak Chia is a man, a man who attained the "guru" status. I'm of the opinion that men as a whole should never be spiritual leaders or gurus. Men are flawed and it is difficult for them not to act on presented oppurtunities. If this sounds sexist I don't really care, it is a truth I've learned through being a pragmatic observer of human nature.

[Hym]

Some men see the opportunity as a reason to be base and others see it as an opportunity to strengthen those who present that conflict to them. You're a teacher, I ask, Right? You are a friend, right? Only if you take the path I would consider much easier by facing the obvious....Teach. See that response in a student's eyes and listen to them move on and watch them grow, watch the self-assurance that facing things openly with yourself creates, even in the way they walk and hold themselves.

Scum. Cheap thrills for cheap intentions, habitually trained by others and themselves not to live in the power of the endless world of inner journeys.....

I don't know why that is so rarely discussed, especially when that man is a teacher. Really? Teaching what? Is that man worth his steel or not? It is a low brow path, not just the test of a teachers credentials but of his humanity. Someone with a marked lack of imagination and self esteem.


You are the Guru in human form, minus the b.s trappings of religiosity, scarcity, and the illusory position of authority. You are the Buddha without the shorn hair and Milarepa's fearless humility walking the path few warriors have tread. Yours is the sanctity nurtured by the dust of those who truly serve humanity, walking in their shoes and noticing, a captured thought, by chance observing the diamonds on the soles of their shoes....... It is in your capacity. You have surprised me, continually..

[heretogrow]

PS- Something I wrote on here earlier has really bothered me. I have openly admitted that I have dared to think about cheating. Please know that I have not even remotely advanced toward that but the gesture has presented itself in my mind and I am being honest. This is not a flippant thing that I just woke up one day and decided to considered. This is are feelings that I have been processing due to lack of intimacy for nearly half of a year. There are physical problems involved that we are facing and I am very empathetic about that. I suppose men do not think to kiss or touch if there is no reward for them in the end. That closeness is the intimacy which I am starving for and no amount of heart to heart talks has managed to make my needs heard.

Yes I said needs. I realize that now I may seem like the typical American Woman who demands far too much. But if I am being honest, when the emotional needs are not met everything else starts to fall apart as well. It is emotional intimacy that makes me feel worthy and balanced. My other needs are secondary or almost non-existant when I am emotionally healthy. It is a slippery slope that has been allowed to develop over much time. I am talking about a soulful give and take of emotions in a very healthy way in the middle of busy and demanding lives. It almost sounds too good to be true and really selfish as I type this out, but this is an honest discussion and I am trying to figure a few things out myself here as well. I don't want anyone to think bad of me. This is just one woman's perspective here.

Much Love,
Julia

[TargeT]

It is emotional intimacy that makes me feel worthy and balanced. My other needs are secondary or almost non-existant when I am emotionally healthy. It is a slippery slope that has been allowed to develop over much time. I am talking about a soulful give and take of emotions in a very healthy way in the middle of busy and demanding lives. It almost sounds too good to be true and really selfish as I type this out, but this is an honest discussion and I am trying to figure a few things out myself here as well. I don't want anyone to think bad of me. This is just one woman's perspective here.

Much Love,
Julia

In my reading I've read that men cheat for lack of sex, women cheat for lack of emotional connection (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/love-and-sex-in-the-digital-age/201707/why-infidelity-is-so-different-men-and-women). I'm sure these are just generalities but it does show the focus of the two different aspects of a relationship.

I know that my partner was put into a situation just like the one you seem to be in and DID try to talk about it to me, but as a part of her growth she decided acceptance was better and to "handle her needs her self" when I pushed back against the idea of multiple partners; I was caught in a semi-depressed state and I'm sure I was not a very fun person to be around while I wallowed in it while at the same time not giving her what she needed.

I wish we had come to a point where these conversations weren't backed by cheating, I am very glad I'm having these difficult discussions and even though I think she has a bit more to tell me; I do think she genuinely wants to be honest with me and move to a better place, she told meat first her ideal situation would involve all three of us, but I think we could work with just us together and I'm willing to try for that.

I guess I'm still blindly in love with her; I feel like I'm giving a lot to try and make this work but it just doesn't feel right yet; though it's all very new.

I feel responsibility for her decision to stray; and but I also feel like she has been playing the "pick me" game (https://www.chumplady.com/2012/04/the-humiliating-dance-of-pick-me/) very well, though it's hard to not discuss the reasons for cheating... it feels like I caught her and now I'm being punished.. haha

lots of confusing stuff.

[heretogrow]

Target,
It is so confusing. I don't know about you but to me relationships are sacred. They are full of ups and downs and even ugliness at times but they are still sacred. I almost feel guilty for posting my thoughts and feelings on this thread but for some reason it is important for me to process all of this. I am not sure I could admit to man that I have thought of cheating to fill this void. He does not hear the warning signs or give my feelings any deep amount of thought. I feel like a terrible person for being so vulnerable to putting my feelings above his. I am good for the moment, but this has plagued our relationship for more than a year now and I don't feel like he has ever seriously considered anything I have been saying. I feel like I should be quiet. When I post this it makes me feel quite raw, exposed and downright wrong for admitting that I have been thinking this way. The lack of ability to make myself clear is intrinsically part of our problems.

[Hym]

This is your teaching opportunity, Julia, but only if it is available. It may even be an opportunity to serve, whether you two stay together or not. I hope it is. I think, even with as little as I know of youtwo, that you can get this going...and even as some physical impairment presents a challenge.

TargeT cannot lose in his situation because he is very open and working on it. As harsh as it may seem going thru all of the pains involved and often how ugly outer beauty can become in the raw realms of truth, neither him or his wife can lose in this pursuit of honesty.

No matter how good, even masterful, I been called at touch I do not have the capacity that women have in their presence. Fact. Breaking men out of their need for sex and introducing or re-exploring the intimacy of touch is something that women can do much better than men. However, even with an injury, a kiss lingering, and the many facets of touch can be highly satisfying....And remember that this is a two way connection. Either way, insist upon that intimacy, whether you stay or move on to another. I say this because that alone is the implied contract between all men and women when they join each other in the journey that only two can travel. It does take two.

The kindness you create in resolving anything is the kindness you will most likely receive in a larger dose, come the future.


I'm going to add this, knowing that if there is anywhere it can be an experience others have had it is here on the Paths of Avalon....

I was working long hours, 10 to 14 hours a day, with 3 total travel hours added to that back and forth. One night I was too tired to massage my pregnant wife, the only one I've had, when I got home, so I did something else, at least putting the effort out to share some energy with her.

I gave her a kiss, a hug, massaged her shoulders, then had her sit up straighter so I could massage her lower back. When I put my hand near her back I did what I always do before touching it. I felt the energy coming out of my hand and as it reached her inside of her stress, her back suddenly released a pop, a cracking sound, and she slowly slumped down and fell asleep.

It was the willingness to get in there and the love that did the deep healing. I know you all have that capacity to engage in the healing of yourselves and others, and I am frankly tired of being considered anyone different from you, especially having seen at least some do the same thing, without training or certification. Talk about cheating....I see this forum as the means to not cheat ourselves of the intimacy our hearts and souls need to be here.

[DNA]

PS- Something I wrote on here earlier has really bothered me. I have openly admitted that I have dared to think about cheating. Please know that I have not even remotely advanced toward that but the gesture has presented itself in my mind and I am being honest. This is not a flippant thing that I just woke up one day and decided to considered. This is are feelings that I have been processing due to lack of intimacy for nearly half of a year. There are physical problems involved that we are facing and I am very empathetic about that. I suppose men do not think to kiss or touch if there is no reward for them in the end. That closeness is the intimacy which I am starving for and no amount of heart to heart talks has managed to make my needs heard.

Yes I said needs. I realize that now I may seem like the typical American Woman who demands far too much. But if I am being honest, when the emotional needs are not met everything else starts to fall apart as well. It is emotional intimacy that makes me feel worthy and balanced. My other needs are secondary or almost non-existant when I am emotionally healthy. It is a slippery slope that has been allowed to develop over much time. I am talking about a soulful give and take of emotions in a very healthy way in the middle of busy and demanding lives. It almost sounds too good to be true and really selfish as I type this out, but this is an honest discussion and I am trying to figure a few things out myself here as well. I don't want anyone to think bad of me. This is just one woman's perspective here.

Much Love,
Julia
Look everyone thinks about cheating, and doing all sorts of unsavory things, but we are not judged on fleeting impulses but on our actions.
Besides, I'm one of those "woo, woo" types who thinks there are all sorts non-organic parasitic ghostly vampire types feeding on our energy fields and constantly trying to steer us into what they consider energetic buffets but we would call orgasms with strangers. That part TargeT highlighted in red earlier that he took from my post, we had a poster that used to reside here named Dawn, she would talk about this stuff all the freaking time, and let me tell you, she was right in this stuff.
This isn't all metaphysical mumbo jumbo to me, I'm convinced these things are real.
So we are all bombarded by impulses, and some of us act on them.
I would argue that an instance of cheating when the circumstances are just right and we as mere mortals succumb is no where near as bad as affairs and or relationships where we are deceptive to a much greater degree.
So my point here is, no one in the least is judging you heretogrow, certainly not me. :)

[heretogrow]

Hym,
I agree with you and I am ready to accept this challenge. We both are worth it. You nailed the reason I chose to respond on this thread in the first place. I have become more of a lurker than a poster these days, but I learn so much from all of your interesting views. I don't want to cheat myself out of genuine intimacy, which is what I felt with my man before these troubles surfaced. He is old fashioned and I am too so he may be a hard nut to crack. He is the alpha male, strong warrior type and I am the nurturing little woman. I am proud of our roles and make no apologies in todays progressive and ever changing world. But we both need to give each other the space to learn new ways to communicate. I am just as strong and head strong as he is, just sort of the one who buckles first, the more reserved of the two of us. If life is a dance I need to shake things up and take the lead. He will be reluctant to follow at first but maybe after a little bit of help, I can convince him that this is his idea. It will be a lot easier after that.

Thank you for your observations and sharing. You have been most helpful!
Much Love,
Julia

[heretogrow]

DNA,
Thanks, I know I am judging myself. He would never cheat, but he has been cheated on several times in the past. He has deep pain from past relationships. I think much of the pain he went through was because he denies that anything is wrong. It's like he can't face the truth so he re-writes the story. I am really going to work on reaching newer and more honest levels of intimacy. Not in the physical sense because that is out of our control right now. But there are many other ways to show you love someone. I need to get him to open up a lot more.

I'll make it a priority. We also need to learn to talk to each other better. Some nights we actually revert to screaming and yelling. The elephant in this room has gotten way out of control. I needed all this to really admit what has been going on, before its too late. Oh and add a wife that took off over five years ago and is nowhere to be found to the equation. We should probably face that head on too while we are at it. Now I know why it feels like we have been in a threesome all this time when he says he genuinely loves me not her. Her entangled energetic presence is certainly not helping. Him finding her and finally getting a divorce would be a good place to start. So I am not crazy after all. I have been able to sense another woman. She has just been attached in energetic form. This makes so much sense He is never going to believe this but at least I feel better knowing that what I was feeling was real.

Much love,
Julia

[Hym]

HereToGrow, Me either. No judging, just working it out. It's insightful and empowering.

DNA, I too have never known those things I see, feel, and hear as anything close to new-agey woowooness, as Dawn didn't either, because their touch and influence was evident from early on. Unlike those 'Seeing' friends of mine I'm not spacey or lost in the ozone, where they end up mistreating their bodies and altering their perceptions instead of jumping in and creating new ones, ones more real than the ones that just float out there, hunting weak and injured humans in their halloween p.j.'s. and batman undies.

However, it is not easy, yet...., describing the influence of the unseen and the unheard to those that are blind to themselves and their own strengths and abilities. It may not even be worth the effort, or necessary at all, when self-empowerment and inner responsibility create their own viable realities for those who experience them.

I used to take those sights and sensations as common place, until my seer friends, an american/tibetan monk, a real yogi, and a few like Carlos Castaneda, would walk up to me and remind me that most don't perceive those things we experience as real. Also, I've never seen a psychopath or sociopath without some darkness in their presence, some smell, and something being said to me about it all.

Those entities, those ghouls, feed off of the insecurities that weaken the will and entice the weakness to grow. They, on the other hand, disappear when the force of will is here and we find cheating takes a flight away from the power of self.

[TargeT]

Target,
It is so confusing. I don't know about you but to me relationships are sacred. They are full of ups and downs and even ugliness at times but they are still sacred.

I agree, I see it as two becoming one; when I am with them everything is ours and I try to support and assist them as much as I can; but the focus is on us and I thought that was what a relationship was supposed to be.

Now I am trying to find the root of that feeling as well, why do I think that traditional is best? (obviously there's a bit of experience here on this thread as I've seen it mentioned several times that what my partner is proposing doesn't work... I wonder if it ever does long term, I don't know.) I really like to understand why I'm feeling what I feel, I'd like to think I function from a rational space as often as possible but when it comes to this topic I'm having a hard time bringing emotion and rationality to an agreeable place.

Is this just a biological drive, to secure a mate and defend them against potential rivals? Monogamy doesn't make sense in a biological survival sense; which seems to rule that out.




I almost feel guilty for posting my thoughts and feelings on this thread but for some reason it is important for me to process all of this. I am not sure I could admit to man that I have thought of cheating to fill this void.
Well maybe that's a good motivator, unfortunately the one with the need seems to sometimes have to work extra hard to be fully understood.

I shamefully don't think I fully understood the full meaning of the what our relationship had come to and specifically how it was affecting her until I found out as much as I know now (I'm sure more is coming, she now thinks she needs to protect me from details because I'm behaving much more emotionally than normal and is worried about me,,, but since I have this new lovely little doubt demon in my head... i have a nagging feeling that's not the only motivation and I hope it's just mistrust/betrayal feelings and not intuition). Unfortunately the way I found out was by accident/miscommunication; I had a strong feeling something was off and pressed her for questions about her "wildly inappropriate friend ship" (my label) and she thought I already knew and said something to the effect of "nothing had happened yet" which crushed me at the time because it seems that I found out via accident... now in my perspective it seems like there have been a few such "accidents" that give me more and more of the story... I did say at first that I didn't want to know details, but I've made it clear to day that I need everything so I can put my imagination to rest; I'm probably going to ask uncomfortable questions about their sex episodes as well, if just to see how willing to be open she is. because I need something to start rebuilding trust with, and I feel like it's not clearly being done currently.)


Anyway, got off in a tangent there... What I meant to say was I think it is worth being ULTRA clear and giving him a chance to fully understand, unfortunately this might take a bit more effort than you would think, it seems partners at times like to stay blissfully ignorant to each others problems, I don't even know if I did it by choice or not; but I did.


He does not hear the warning signs or give my feelings any deep amount of thought.
I didn't either and mine were gigantic neon ones, I think a very serious sit down zero distraction conversation about needs and fulfillment might have worked, but I also think it needs to have a strong backing, something that shows how important this is to you; I don't know if that means telling him you've been having infedelity thoughts or how exactly.. I just wish I had paid attention at the time for her and for me, and the kids, grand kids, horses, dogs etc... we have a messily entangled life.


I feel like a terrible person for being so vulnerable to putting my feelings above his.
I don't know that you are, you need to talk to him and see what his feelings are and if he has a solution perhaps?

I've definitely learned that communication can always be improved. I'm working on this hour by hour lately.


I am good for the moment, but this has plagued our relationship for more than a year now and I don't feel like he has ever seriously considered anything I have been saying. I feel like I should be quiet.

That's exactly how my partner felt; I feel like this may be a common potentiality of longer term relationships. Maybe we get so used to "you" and "me" being "us", that we forget that the "you" is a very different person still, and that's probably why the "me" liked "you" in the first place.


When I post this it makes me feel quite raw, exposed and downright wrong for admitting that I have been thinking this way. The lack of ability to make myself clear is intrinsically part of our problems.

I would just view your thoughts as a symptom, they are just like pain; you have needs that, well, NEED to be fulfilled in some way... you can't just ignore that stuff, maybe your subconscious is reaching out to the only solution it can see given the current information set (and not good communication)?

I think the thing that upsets me most is that I feel like she gave up and she did go else where with out ending us first or at least telling up front what was happening... she DID try, but our communication was so poor I just saw it as some weird line of questioning that sprung up because she was hanging out with a threesome of gay men a lot and was fascinated by their tripod (which has since broken up.. didn't last long either). I was probably desperately avoiding the topic due to my own insecurities and I did not pick up on any sense of urgency, plus the thought was repulsive to me at the time and I responded in that way, which I'm sure discouraged further communication.

I don't like where it took us so i'm taking the china in a bull shop approach to communication now, and yes it's messy, and a bit of a roller coaster; but we are talking and there's been some good things that it seems like we could make of renewed attention on each other.


Don't give up! I wouldn't even say that giving an ultimatum is a bad idea at this point if that's what it takes to really get his attention; I think that's what you really want anyway ;)

But then, I'm not so sure I'm the best source of advice on this particular topic.



Look everyone thinks about cheating, and doing all sorts of unsavory things, but we are not judged on fleeting impulses but on our actions.
Besides, I'm one of those "woo, woo" types who thinks there are all sorts non-organic parasitic ghostly vampire types feeding on our energy fields and constantly trying to steer us into what they consider energetic buffets but we would call orgasms with strangers. That part TargeT highlighted in red earlier that he took from my post, we had a poster that used to reside here named Dawn, she would talk about this stuff all the freaking time, and let me tell you, she was right in this stuff.
This isn't all metaphysical mumbo jumbo to me, I'm convinced these things are real.
So we are all bombarded by impulses, and some of us act on them.
I would argue that an instance of cheating when the circumstances are just right and we as mere mortals succumb is no where near as bad as affairs and or relationships where we are deceptive to a much greater degree.
So my point here is, no one in the least is judging you heretogrow, certainly not me. :)

I completely agree and this is a big part of my leniency in this.. I set up the circumstances for this to happen, I basically allowed it.

Through my lack of emotional availability mixed with my EXTREME supportive nature (she said she needed this "friend" to include multi day vacations etc...)I mixed vinegar and baking soda together then was upset when it erupted and now I'm dealing with the mess.

The concept of Archons freaks her out when I tell her, but I'm very convinced the mind flyers or weitigo or what ever has a high probability of being real (lots of hedging there.. haha). I've seen too many strange things, and experienced the weird impulses when under heavy influence of emotion to not think there's some outside influence somehow.


So I am not crazy after all. I have been able to sense another woman. She has just been attached in energetic form. This makes so much sense He is never going to believe this but at least I feel better knowing that what I was feeling was real.

Much love,
Julia

This is how I found out about her "other"... I could FEEL the wrongness, the intrusion... I'm trying to get her to admit when the first time was because I have a strong feeling I already knew.. that's what made me press a line of questioning that I normally would feel ridiculous in our relationship.

This idea is also really making me more hesitant about exporing a poly anything... I don't like this other guy; I can see why she does but I don't get a good feeling from himi and our kids didn't like him either (yea, I actually had dinner with this guy; I even had a strong feelign that night that I was seeing something bad... but I was not able to put it all together and act accordingly... I let it continue because I'm non confrontational and she said she needed it).

[AutumnW]

If there is no emotional connection, you are not cheating on a mate, you are stepping out on a roommate. It's not necessarily either partner's fault.

Something that has always driven me batty are those (usually women) who have lost interest in sex altogether and then morally harangue their partner as a 'cheater,' when he finds a girlfriend.

And any man who refuses to cuddle his physically ill wife, kiss her, hug her, shouldn't feel surprised if she finds someone who will.

Seriously, people need to get past themselves on this issue and figure out what makes the most sense. As we age we have to take a good look at hormonal changes and how they affect personality, spirituality, sexuality. Women can't help menopause and a plummeting libido but men shouldn't have to hang it up at that point too, if it's essential to their well being.

[Hym]

So true AutumnW.

[AutumnW]

DNA,
Thanks, I know I am judging myself. He would never cheat, but he has been cheated on several times in the past. He has deep pain from past relationships. I think much of the pain he went through was because he denies that anything is wrong. It's like he can't face the truth so he re-writes the story. I am really going to work on reaching newer and more honest levels of intimacy. Not in the physical sense because that is out of our control right now. But there are many other ways to show you love someone. I need to get him to open up a lot more.

I'll make it a priority. We also need to learn to talk to each other better. Some nights we actually revert to screaming and yelling. The elephant in this room has gotten way out of control. I needed all this to really admit what has been going on, before its too late. Oh and add a wife that took off over five years ago and is nowhere to be found to the equation. We should probably face that head on too while we are at it. Now I know why it feels like we have been in a threesome all this time when he says he genuinely loves me not her. Her entangled energetic presence is certainly not helping. Him finding her and finally getting a divorce would be a good place to start. So I am not crazy after all. I have been able to sense another woman. She has just been attached in energetic form. This makes so much sense He is never going to believe this but at least I feel better knowing that what I was feeling was real.

Much love,
Julia

Julia,

Do you have children with this man?

[AutumnW]

Target, the intimacy you shared with your wife has been damaged. This is what you are 'feeling,' IMHO. You are using reason in an attempt to figure out the irrational -- and by that I mean the arena of the heart.

If there is the tiniest underlying asymmetry, in terms of power, measured in attractiveness, etc...you will be feeling a twinge about that too.

[heretogrow]

Autumn,
We do not have children together. He cannot have them. But I have three children, two grown and one in middle school. I had her at 40 and her father left before she was born. He considers her his own child and he is very proud of her. This has fulfilled a lifelong purpose in his life as he always wanted many kids. He wanted a whole football team he jokes. Now he realizes raising an adolescent girl can be just as challenging and rewarding.

Julia

[Valerie Villars]

Hi TargeT, I feel for you bro. But on the other hand I gotta say F that.
In the midst of your amazing bravery in admitting your situation I will respond in brutal honesty.
One should avoid dating American women especially when looking at having children and getting married. And when dating American women one should understand that through years of Hollywood programming and talk show enabling, American women have come to the conclusion that they are entitled to constant "passion".
When referencing Aristotle's four types of love we have Philia (Brotherly Love, Freindship Love), Storge (Family love, Parent Child Love) Agape (unconditional god type love) and Eros (romantic love).
Many relationships start out with an intense Eros that can not be sustained, and this will hopefully transform into a type of Philia or Storge or even Agape.
But even if that is the case the world is full of unrealistic mother ######"s who think they deserve to be basked in "EROS" now and forever. Most of these folks have been programmed by Hollywood, Sally Jesse Rapheal and Oprah Winfrey. There is an unrealistic entitlement thing going on here, and right now American women are front and center for thinking they gotta get theirs. In my opinion this is some Tavistock Institute/George Soros sh!t that has been in place for a while to help destroy the American Family and women have been the main target.

If your wife is presently engaged in this paradigm my advice would be "to get the f#ck" out of there.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYNFHS8gG6s

DNA, you amused me with this tirade against American women. Maybe some of us don't watch t.v. :cocktail:

[TargeT]

Women can't help menopause .

Ironically I'm pretty sure she's early stage menopause, well she was convinced before me, but it seems like it.. .shortened cycles etc... I think she maybe having a bit of a midlife crisis and is feeling her mortality... I also feel like i'm giving a lot of excuses Justifications for her; I guess because she was not able to present her side so I know this is a bit biased most likely.

Hope she's ready for when I have mine, should be milder though; I'm not a passionate Leo type.

[AutumnW]

Heretogrow,

Thanks for response. And you have been together less than five years. Just trying to get a fix on your situation. And, if I understand, HE has the physical problem, not you.

You are experiencing lack of tactile reinforcement. Touch helps to assure us that we are held in high regard by partner, that we are loved. It is a basic relationship need, not frivolous icing on a cake.

If a person is self contained and not tactile, they will always default to their basic nature. An embrace from someone who is acting outside of spontaneity might feel very awkward for him and weird and off putting to you.

When we are told we are loved but some element of that love is missing it creates cognitive dissonance. We THINK, "he loves me." We FEEL, "he doesn't love me."

[AutumnW]

Women can't help menopause .

Ironically I'm pretty sure she's early stage menopause, well she was convinced before me, but it seems like it.. .shortened cycles etc... I think she maybe having a bit of a midlife crisis and is feeling her mortality... I also feel like i'm giving a lot of excuses Justifications for her; I guess because she was not able to present her side so I know this is a bit biased most likely.

Hope she's ready for when I have mine, should be milder though; I'm not a passionate Leo type.

If that's the case, she must be really HOT. And I mean, throw the covers off, perspiring hot!

[Ernie Nemeth]

T, there's so much I'd like to say. And yet it is such a personal matter that each relationship has different dynamics.

There is a way to handle this situation but it requires understanding interpersonal relationship dynamics. Certain methods can be used, depending on circumstances, to elicit the desired result. The very first understanding is to release all expectations, which kinda gets in the way of the desired result. The second is to work on yourself. It is the only part you control, so it is very much worth the attention. I know it sounds simplistic but if you reread the first point, to release expectations, there is a secret hidden there. To release yourself of the burden of a desired result, depending on circumstance, frees you to choose. That is the point of action. That is the method.

Relationships are like energy converters. Tweak the energy over here and the entire dynamic shifts. Radical progress can be achieved! It only takes no expectations and knowing what you want, but no punches pulled, no easy road taken.

This is a crazy post.

Stay strong, brother. I feel ya.

[Flash]

If there is no emotional connection, you are not cheating on a mate, you are stepping out on a roommate. It's not necessarily either partner's fault.

Something that has always driven me batty are those (usually women) who have lost interest in sex altogether and then morally harangue their partner as a 'cheater,' when he finds a girlfriend.

And any man who refuses to cuddle his physically ill wife, kiss her, hug her, shouldn't feel surprised if she finds someone who will.

Seriously, people need to get past themselves on this issue and figure out what makes the most sense. As we age we have to take a good look at hormonal changes and how they affect personality, spirituality, sexuality. Women can't help menopause and a plummeting libido but men shouldn't have to hang it up at that point too, if it's essential to their well being.

Not all woman have a decreased libido as they age. In fact, I also have seen the reverse: no more children to take care of, more time on one's hand, libido goes to the roof.

Also, woman who take hormones usually keep a quite active libido, if they had it to start with.

However, I have seen so many women soooo disappointed by men and their demands for physical contact without taking into account the emotional intimacy that women had enough, it cuts their sexual desire altogether. But, give them a loving, sensitive and able men, and libido strikes back with a revenge.

Also, as men grow older, many cannot get it up anylonger. And they expect the woman to be responsible for stimulating them, hence the 35 years old desired when they are 65. Well, a little lesson, they won't be able to supply anyhow lol if they could not to start with. Decreased testosterone happens to male too, and hormonal replacement could be helpful as well, but no, the blue pill is the only thing they think of -

One thing that did not surprised me, because it is regular and somewhat disappointing, is when Target talks of the beautiful body of his wife. Well, this is almost always the first attraction for a man, and then the deeper emotional and spiritual intimacy is somewhat put aside.

Real invovement has not much to do with the body, in my views. Once there is strong love and intimacy, body appearance is kind of forgotten (beautiful or not, it does not matter anymore) and the other is truly enjoyed for all he/she is, in all aspects. My opinion. This is often put aside by men, to the upmost frustration of women. my opinion once again.

Chosing a mate has much more to do with his/her inner workings than the outer shell, and it makes for longer standing and more fulfilling relations. But once again, I am not the paramount success in couple relations, so, it may be only wishful unrealistic wishes from me.

[Hym]

Nothing but learning going on here with what we're sharing. Carry on. There might/should be a new thread about the subject I'm going to bring up here, as I haven't found one on Avalon yet, but I do bring it up because few of us men have the understanding that we should have about it.. I'd rather a woman deliver this information, so please share your knowledge and experiences.

For those men with partners coming upon perimenopause and then menopause, with a wide variance in duration until post menopause, there are some major understandings that should be looked into together with your mate. Most men are clueless about this stage in women's lives and they should be more informed about those things that they can and cannot help with. It can be a full life for a couple if they enter this time prepared to deal and adapt with the changes at hand.

These include understanding the hormonal changes occurring and the mood swings that result from a dramatic change in a woman's chemistry. Healthy diet, focused on quality phytoestrogens, omega 3 and 7 oils, bio-identicals, herbs-quite a few are helpful, exercise, and emotional support, support defined mainly by her needs are all helpful things to have available.

There are also some simple acupressure and massage techniques that provide relief. Amongst those, using the fingertips of the right hand to press CV 6, along the Conception Vessel-The Sea of Energy Center, 2 finger widths below the navel, while slowly inhaling and exhaling activates the central channel of the body's systems in order to deal with those many changes that menopause brings. In concert with this, at the same waist level on the back, fingertip touch between the vertebrae along the Governing Vessel, GV 4.

There are other points, Heart 1 along the inside of the upper arm just below the crease of the chest, and the place called the Sea of Tranquility along CV, CV 17, approximately at the height of the nipples above the sternum, a place to be treated with sensitivity....all to be held and balanced by the energy coming thru your touch. (I was once given a rare acupuncture treatment by someone who was supposed to know better than to needle CV 17 and my body rejected it by forcefully pushing it out on it's own, far across the room.)

Hormones and Understanding...

I asked a transgender acquaintance, a decades long aerospace engineer, recently how his/her hormone therapy was going and was told that he stopped it because he didn't want to be found wandering the streets like some older woman who had lost her mind. The things women experience with all of the hormones that they have in their lives is a life most men cannot fathom, at least until they serve a partner during some of those stages. Even then.....

[Valerie Villars]

Target, it's about a higher love. What do you aspire to? Really think about it and then move that way; whatever way that is. Much love on your journey.

[DNA]

DNA, you amused me with this tirade against American women. Maybe some of us don't watch t.v. :cocktail:

Hey, there are always exceptions to the rule, but as far as I can tell those are indeed the exceptions.
Americans in general are rather brain washed, I suppose I could amend what I'm saying, but as far as I can tell, men are being told if it requires you to be cuckolded in order to satisfy your woman so be it. American men are loaded with quite unrealistic expectations when it comes to acquiescing to spoken and unspoken demands.
I say screw that.
American women are the hardest women in the world when it comes to unrealistic expectations demanded to maintain their happiness.
I recognized this in my early twenties and made the conscious decision to never marry an American woman.
Again I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule but as far as I'm concerned the rule still stands.

[heretogrow]

I am not from a very progressive area of the US. We live close to many Amish and Mennonite where the women are very submissive in their relationships. While I am neither our social ways are very old fashioned and centered around family and self-sustainability to a point, and the land that we live on. Our calendar revolves around what needs planting, harvesting and the work that needs done to get there.

I believe women are just as intelligent and of equal value to their male counterparts, but I acknowledge that there are some things males are more proficient at because of their bodily strength. Especially around here where agriculture is the most prominent career. Coming to my area would be like stepping back one hundred years in time compared to New York City. There are no street lights or stoplights on many of these country roads! To get cell service you have to drive twenty miles to the next town. When the electricity goes out you run the generator till the gas runs out and then light the fireplace for heat until it is repaired.

So I am not your typical, demanding American woman. LOL! I am currently learning to drive the tractor so I can plant my own flower and herb beds. I don't have my nails done, I cut and color (shhh) my own hair and make my own noodles. Women are a different breed here but we are treasured and appreciated for the most part. I don't know if I would say that the men would admit that we are equal because they still take the protective provider stance here and take much pride in doing that well. But we are the heart and soul of the family. This is how we have lived our lives. Many women here work and many single mothers do it all. But it is much easier if you have a partner to share in the journey.

So basically I guess you could say we don't have time to sit and think about our demands. We live in an area where everyone has to pull their weight. We don't have the luxury of feeling entitled because we know our roles and we get r done. I suppose my feminist friends on here have there heads rolling.

What I do believe is the men in my area need to work on emotions, especially the older men over fifty. They need to be taught to communicate in ways that make women feel special. Affairs are rampant here and I believe it has much to do with our men's tough outer shell and our cultural roles which have been challenged very little. Sex is considered a private subject between couples. And intimacy is not generally discussed except in hushed tones among the women who are complaining. It truly is strange when compared to the way Hollywood depicts women. The women around here a not really like that. There is a sisterhood amongst us though. It is far easier to whine a little and get tips from your friends to let off steam than it is to get your man to have a deep understanding of what is going on.

And we all secretly have our little gadgets and toys. That is not the solution. We delight at going to the parties and our guys joke about what on earth we are going to subject them to next. We pass around our tantric books and swap recipes for herbal lubes. We get by together with a sense of humor. But I am seeing that the men around here have a great deal to learn especially after listening to Hym talk. Even if you offered a course on how to treat a woman, the men around here would never attend. They would complain about us demanding American women. LOL

Sorry,I am mostly just venting, and trying to show the cultural component to my dilemma.

Julia

[Bruno]

I don't have the time to write more but I want to give a heartfelt thanks to the contributors of this thread. The personal experiences and sincere advice here are wonderful.

Thank you!

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

^ What Bruno said. Thank you all for the very personal stories, it's been highly insightful (although I haven't got through all of them yet, apologies).

Just swinging in with my own anecdote. I've never cheated, because I know what it feels like. It was like having your guts ripped out. It's been 13 years and I've been single ever since. I have shyness issues and self-esteem issues and, ah yes, trust issues. Or maybe I just call it that, and staying single is just a safety blanket.

Cheating is beyond me in many respects. I would never do it. I can possibly understand the hows and whys of cheating in a marriage. One might feel trapped and unloved and just cannot get out. Not without taking a huge financial loss, for example. And when someone else comes along offering them a temporary escape...yes, I see that.

But relationships are different. For my own part, I ended a relationship once because for me it wasn't going anywhere. She was kind, honest, and a real looker, and I sincerely cared for her. But that was all. Then I fell for someone else, and fell hard - however, I did not cheat with her. At my existing gf's place one night I decided to come out with it. I sat her down on the sofa and told her straight, but very gently, that it wasn't going to work out, and that I was in love with another girl.

I made myself sound wholly undeserving of her, that she was wonderful and it was all my fault. Though with honesty, it wasn't anyone's fault. I didn't feel that special something with her, that's all. It just wasn't there, and would never be there. And there was another thing. She had a daughter of 18 months by another man (from before we were together), and she was angling all the while for me to be sole provider. Maybe I was no more to her than that, I don't know. But I was not in a place in my life to be able to do that. And I had nothing against the kid at all, it was just...I didn't really want to father someone else's child. Sounds harsh perhaps, but I wasn't looking to have a family with her.

So I told her the truth, and delicately, and it involved this other girl. I really was head over heals - it wasn't that I was using her as an excuse to get out. The gf was upset of course, but also understanding, mindful that I was being honest. It was all very calm and cordial. I guess this is the exception rather than the rule for breakups. In the end I was glad to part amicably - that very night. That was the end of it and I didn't see her again.

The irony is, the girl I went on to see - who I was so veeery much in love with, cheated on me. A lot.

13 years later...

[DNA]

I honestlly think at times we have to look at our parents and the behaviors they displayed to one another we were observing as children and young adults.
I'm not a Freud fan at all, but I think it is rather easy to see how he got that one right.
I was reading Star Mariner's post, thank you Star Mariner for your post, and I was thinking about how unconsciously we may choose mates based on how we perceived our parents as we were children and how they treated each other.
I will use my self as an example, my own mother had quite a few faults in so far as being a person, we all do, but one thing she did wonderfully well was pay attention to me and truly listen to me when I was talking to her. As such as a young man I would find myself breaking up with girls who on the surface were beautiful people by all accounts but who would not fully engage or match the level of attention and love I gave them.
I was well aware of this as a young man and as I noted friends and such who seemed to be making certain choices in mates and such I would ask them questions pertaining to their parent of the opposite sex and find there were correlations in what they looked for in a mate.
I know this is rather elementary and I'm sure most of you are well aware of this, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to have something like this voiced so as we re-examine some of these factors in our relationships and how we choose potential mates.

[TargeT]

I can possibly understand the hows and whys of cheating in a marriage. One might feel trapped and unloved and just cannot get out. Not without taking a huge financial loss, for example. And when someone else comes along offering them a temporary escape...yes, I see that.

The more we talk the more its obvious that was a part of what was going on, a sense of being trapped (financially especially) with someone that she didn't feel she could communicate her needs to; when this attractive friend came up that seemed willing to fulfill what was empty and offer things that I cannot (different, not better... but sometimes different does seem better, or at least its desired).

We had another VERY emotional day to day, I finally feel like I know everything that happened, it's not what I thought it was yesterday but the honesty (even though it came with a huge emotional blow out, a lot of past anger and resentment being expressed etc..) is what I value most at this point; i think rebuilding trust is the most important thing and a lot of that has to do with me as well.

It all seems like communication issues are the root of this, though really sex is too; and of course women do not generally have sexual partners with out love... so there's that too due to the duration of the friendship turned affair (in my situation).


Anyway, I feel like we accomplished something (in a very messy way) today and I'm feeling less suspicious now that (again I FEEL) that I know the whole of what we are working past.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I could be more graphic, but this is in the public domain.

What I have decided is that it is far better to love more than to stop loving. In retrospect I would have been better off with my first wife.

Instead I stopped loving her. And I used that same method for the next three long relationships. I stopped loving them.

I learned that I gave away my power to women in exchange for companionship and sex. That isn't love. Although it felt like it.

This last lady, of almost fifteen years now, I truly love - with all my heart. And no matter what she does or I might do, and most has already been done so I speak from experience, I will always love her. It is not that I found the perfect women, either. Rather, it is that I have worked on myself and my foibles, my insecurities, my ****. It was very uncomfortable but our lives were in such turmoil then that I resolved to dedicate myself to self-realization. I joined a group, I went for therapy, I took a two year course in interpersonal relationship training. She was invited but by then I understood that this was about me, not her. In the end I retook my power and left. I started a new life without her. I would cry myself to sleep I was so unhappy but I am very stubborn, so I stuck to it. three months went by and finally she called. I truly had given up by then on her, but I still loved her and there would never be another for me. And she called! And she apologized and said she loved me and wanted to be with me. I joyously agreed. There were some rocky times after that, some documented here way back, but in the end she was cured or her addictions and had a handle on her past trauma. She started reaching out to her two estranged children. Now they are on the mend, years later, of their own trauma. One is at a crisis point as I write this, we have just seen her after six months of no contact. She is skin and bones but she realizes she needs help, so she came to us, of course...

I am rambling, I know.

What I want to convey is that the power is always with the one who strives for love and clarity. And miracles can be accomplished. Thank you for this reminder of the fantastic work I have done in this relationship. It is a true miracle.

That's all.

[Elpis]

I could not pass up commenting on this Thread. Thank you TargeT for posting to it otherwise I may never have seen it.

I should give you a little history. I’ve not been so lucky in love, never marrying my one true love, but I have had a world of experience. I’ve been married four times. The first one only lasted 10 months when I was 19. During my second marriage which lasted 6 years, my husband cheated on me while I was pregnant with of course his long legged secretary. Two weeks into my third marriage my husband cheated and later on he did much worse to me.

My last marriage was for 20 years. This husband did not cheat but I cheated (emotionally) towards the end our marriage when I had email contact with that long lost love. I’ve been single since 2005, our divorce finale in 2009.

We had a blended family. My husband was a widower with three children and I had two children. One of my children was that of my first love and the other was from my second marriage. Although we had lots of challenges in the beginning we were making it all work. I was at a place and time in my life where I felt I could finally put my past (love) behind me. I was happy.

Tragedy struck our family a few years in when my step-daughter was brutally raped and murdered. My husband was never the same. Grief and anger will do that to a person. As the years went by he only became more distant. It was as if there was a cloud around him that was choking off my air supply. The only time I would see a smile on his face or have him show me any type of affection was when we were in the company of others.

I was starved for affection and ripe for the picking when after 35 years of no contact that first email arrived. Love letters soon began to fly back and forth. It was as if no time had passed between us. The golden cord between our spirits had never fully broken. It’s still there to this day even though we live separate lives worlds apart.

Listening to TargeT’s story it reminded me of my own. There was a huge void in my life and another man filled it. I had a need that my husband was not able or willing to fill. I finally made the choice to leave. In my mind and heart I had already betrayed him and myself. After all I’d been through, how was it possible I became the “cheater”?

There has to be a void in order for a partner to go outside the marriage/relationship in order to have it filled.

I have many views on love, sex, emotional needs, intimacy, menopause and more. Perhaps I’ll write more on those topics later on a different thread. Any thread suggestions?

One finale thought for TargeT ~ Two is company, three is a crowd! Just my opinion. Wishing you both all the best.

Much love

[Hym]

Listening to the Heart Beat.....Healing Beyond The Pain


A suggestion for thread titles, as all of this is useless unless the healing takes place. The awesome thing here is, there is a lot of healing in all of the shared comments, experiences, insights, and honesty.

Cheating on it's own as a title, for what seems to be at the Heart of these discussions, was just a starting point. I'm pretty sure some here will come up with good suggestions.

[Hym]

Elpis, Thanks for sharing.

I have seen those things you describe about the distance that the emotions travel away from the very love that, even by definition and common sense, could help heal the traumas people go thru. It is that closeness we share with our mates that is there to ease the burden and give us the strength to see us thru the deep pains we experience. Sometimes the heart is lost in the pain, unable to be healed by the one closest to us.

Often I have no objection to the one in a relationship who finds solace beyond the abuse, but not for the lack of affection. That seems like balance, until the pain is resolved. However, I've chosen to not be the one filling the emptiness, because that does little to strengthen the one in pain, a process that will make her more worthy to herself and any future mate once that strength and INNATE RIGHT is found.

[Elpis]

Elpis, Thanks for sharing.

I have seen just those things you describe about the distance that the emotions travel away from the very love that, even by definition and common sense, could help heal the traumas people go thru. It is that closeness we share with our mates that is there to ease the burden and give us the strength to see us thru the deep pains we experience. Sometimes the heart is lost in the pain, unable to be healed by the one closest to us.

Often I have no objection to the one in a relationship who finds solace beyond the abuse and the lack of affection. That seems like balance, until the pain is resolved. However, I've chosen to not be the one filling the emptiness, because that does little to strengthen the one in pain, a process that will make her more worthy to herself and any future mate once that strength and INNATE RIGHT is found.


Thank you Hym.

I stayed as long as I could. The children were all grown by the time I left. He was not close to his daughter but she and I were very close. I think that only added to his pain. I thought I was helping him but when looking back I think I was a daily reminder of what he had lost and that horrific time in our life.

He moved on quickly from me finding comfort from another who was not close to the situation but was a friend of the family. He is not the kind of man to be alone. He needs the presence of a woman in his life. I think he has come further along the path to healing without me. I am thankful for that.

I think it was meant for me to be there at that time. The problem was I stayed about five years longer than I should have.

Much Love

[heretogrow]

Oh Elpis,
I looked at your profile after reading the deeply moving post that you wrote. You are such a beautiful person inside and out.

I wrote some things that were really personal but I have since deleted them because they probably should not be on the internet.

I guess right now my relationship is on life-support. I won't cheat. I won't leave because we have managed to create a safety net by prepping for/in case the SHIF and we can survive anything bad that happens in the outside world.

AutumnW is right. I guess I just have to live like I have a roommate.

[Elpis]

Oh Elpis,
I looked at your profile after reading the deeply moving post that you wrote. You are such a beautiful person inside and out.

I wrote some things that were really personal but I have since deleted them because they probably should not be on the internet.

I guess right now my relationship is on life-support. I won't cheat. I won't leave because we have managed to create a safety net by prepping for/in case the SHIF and we can survive anything bad that happens in the outside world.

AutumnW is right. I guess I just have to live like I have a roommate.

Thank you so much HereToGrow for the kind words and the friend request!

I’m not sure if living as a roommate with your life partner/husband is healthy. My heart aches for you.

I felt that way for years and it slowly chipped away at my very essence. I lost myself and my way, giving all I had to a man that could not give back.

Occasionally there was “sex” in the bedroom but no real intimacy. In the end it felt like another chore I needed to do. That’s a horrible way to live.

That is not me at all. I have a very healthy sex drive, sometimes too healthy, plus I am a bit of a romantic. Okay, I am a big romantic! At times I am not sure if I was blessed or cursed that I came through menopause still having a need for physical intimacy. I don’t believe we were meant to go through life alone. I truly miss not having a partner in my life, the right partner.

For me sex doesn’t start in the bedroom. There is a slow buildup all day with flirting and innuendo, quick kisses and a wink, perhaps a gentle pat on the rear as he walks by. It’s about the dance for me. It’s about the anticipation. It’s putting the play into the work of achieving that long awaited evening. It’s the difference between having sex and making love.

Living with a man that only seemed a roommate did not work for me. The connection we once had was lost. It just took me way too long to accept that.

I truly wish the best for you.

With Love

[heretogrow]

Thank you so much for your kindness, Elpis. Perhaps I should not have changed my post to say we can survive anything bad in this world if I stay here. As I am muddling through my day in this funk I just realized our river is rising and it looks like there is a threat of a flood later if it continues to rise. I am getting ready to take my daughter to my parents house for the day, just to be safe.

I will be ok for the moment. Life is short, I don't understand why it can be so difficult to show feelings, especially love. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

Much Love,
Julia

[Hym]

Here to Grow, I agree about not showing so much on the internet. I immediately was concerned for you. Your sharing was very healthy and we all here validate your truths, your honesty and your bravery in sharing. It also brought up to me why I have never used any other sites. I was even going to PM Bill raising concerns for your safety, what with how people are vulnerable to exploitation, that is until I saw you had removed those details.

I wondered then if there was anything I did to prompt anyone from revealing too much here, then I saw that you had balanced it all out with the rest of your post. I do think we have a certain amount of safety here, but then again, for me, I can't be exploited and I stand by the truths I have shared. Each step in the process of validating the experiences that lead to healing has to be honored and supported. It should be an easy thing to do.

This reminds me of my requests, at times, to some friends about the search for good men needed to meet some very good women, especially for so many of the women I see here in the states. It's no joke, though, as is my way, I have mentioned it as a laugh at the end of noticing some unwarranted harshness coming from some women here, something that DNA hit on exactly as it is.

It's what I have seen as a complicated but deliberate effort by all of those who have manipulated society thru entertainment, news, education, politics and religion to separate and alienate men and women from each other. It is difficult to watch but I don't get caught up in the negativity for any length of time.

This forum has always been both a statement of truths and a balanced platform for solutions, even the relief, the respite needed to enjoy it all. Discussions like these hold fast those value we share, amidst the necessary and invited vast differences in experience, viewpoints and opinions.

And as you have said, HeretoGrow, it doesn't make sense. May your paths to that calm begin with the inner strength that only you can create.

Blessings

[Elpis]

Thank you so much for your kindness, Elpis. Perhaps I should not have changed my post to say we can survive anything bad in this world if I stay here. As I am muddling through my day in this funk I just realized our river is rising and it looks like there is a threat of a flood later if it continues to rise. I am getting ready to take my daughter to my parents house for the day, just to be safe.

I will be ok for the moment. Life is short, I don't understand why it can be so difficult to show feelings, especially love. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

Much Love,
Julia

Thank you Julia. Please stay safe!

[TargeT]

I don't understand why it can be so difficult to show feelings, especially love.

I think complacency is part, it's hard to live in a situation and not get used to it, I wouldn't say numb to it but any routine becomes muscle memory and that mean's there's not very much concious thought going into it; and I think the feminine component of the partnership is generally more sensitive to this. For me there were also insecurities and a lack of being comfortable enough to just be me instead of the stereotype I thought I was suppose to be (or was trained to think so via entertainment/society while in my formative years). And there's the fact that we all show our love differently, at times I thought I was showing it and she was looking for how she shows love, not how I show it and thought I didn't love her very much anymore because of the differences in our love language (http://www.5lovelanguages.com/profile/couples/).



Your Scores
8 Physical Touch
8 Quality Time
6 Words of Affirmation
5 Acts of Service
3 Receiving Gifts

Reading about it clued me into some things she had been doing that bothered me (or at least gave them new focus) like not giving me her full attnetion when we spend time together; which is hard for her because she's very Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) like.

Her highest score was Words of Affirmation; which is much less important to me; and I did not understand this importance until we took this test and discussed it.

But also, a lot of our problem was just lack of deep communication where we really made sure we understood each other and were not just hearing words and trying to fit them to our idea of what the other was saying.

I think we threw a lot of stumbling blocks in front of ourselves with out even knowing; then got frustrated when we couldn't run freely.

[heretogrow]

Well Target I had a very emotional heart to heart with my man last night. It did not go well. Many tears on my part. I bared my soul to him. He told me he loved me, but when I told him I needed kissed and held he flat-lined. Thinking about it today, that was when I felt his body get rigid and defensive. He could not show tenderness.

He acts like he is cheating? Who Knows! I am going outside to talk to my plants. the flood watch has lifted.

Why would someone withhold the very thing that would make it a healing experience instead of a hurting experience, when you have emotionally bared your heart and soul to them.

Ps- I don't look like my avatar anymore. That was twenty years ago. But I am still very warm, and nurturing and comfortable.

[TargeT]

I'm sorry you had a difficult night, but I think this maybe a good start to cracking open the conversation; I hope you don't feel like the one last night was the final one?


Well Target I had a very emotional heart to heart with my man last night. It did not go well. Many tears on my part. I bared my soul to him. He told me he loved me, but when I told him I needed kissed and held he flat-lined. Thinking about it today, that was when I felt his body get rigid and defensive. He could not show tenderness.

He acts like he is cheating? Who Knows! I am going outside to talk to my plants. the flood watch has lifted.

Why would someone withhold the very thing that would make it a healing experience instead of a hurting experience, when you have emotionally bared your heart and soul to them.

Ps- I don't look like my avatar anymore. That was twenty years ago. But I am still very warm, and nurturing and comfortable.

I know it was devastating to you because you bared your self and became very vulnerable and felt rejected; which makes it very hard.

From what you've said, he is a very "traditional" man, to me I read that it's the same type of stereotype I was trying to adhere to most my life... and being sensitive isn't really covered by that sterio type.

For me when I was (initially, this was years ago, my problems didn't crop up over night but slowly built to a crescendo) asked for something similar to what you did last night I got defensive because I think I felt guilty, I KNEW I wasn't doing what she said but the defensive side of my personality is strong and wily and convinced me she was just trying to get something out of me or some other negative thing.. I didn't even try to see her perspective or need because I was too busy defending myself against my own guilt and other complications.

I'll assume he's not cheating due to other things you've mentioned, but I'm sure he has a lot of conflicted emotions that are hard to set down; i doubt self examination is a very common practice by the "traditional" man; but if you feel like it's worth fighting for, like I do... don't give up!

A one time very emotional conversation may just not be enough; you are expressing your unfulfilled needs that you want him to be present for... I see all kinds of opportunity for the insecurities I'm feeling to pop up with that line of conversation (and remember, almost none of it really has to do with you; if it's like whats going on with me) and the stereotypical man does not have insecurities! (so there's something to struggle with too)

[AutumnW]

Target, Heretogrow,

Just want to add something quick here Julia. Even a traditional man will comfort a crying and upset spouse who needs to be held.

Let me qualify here. If it was a heated argument, that's one thing, but if you really were just baring your soul and he pretty much rejected you at that moment ...hmm...odd.

[heretogrow]

Thanks Target,
My emotions have been up and down. He doesn't have as many as I do. I am a little ADD, like your lady, myself. She and I sound like we have a few like qualities and you and my man sound similar. I am so proud of you for facing this head on even though it is difficult for you. We are in our fifties and have old age creeping up like a fast moving train. You have your youth on your side. Plus, you are willing to grow and open to change.

I am wondering, does your lady have a sense of humor? Is she funny? Quirky... Off the wall a little? I have that type of personality and I can usually get him to open up more with humor. I don't want to make my relationship sound all bad. It isn't. We have so much in common, we communicate pretty well on things other than emotions, we laugh often.

He calls me Lucy, because I can be a lot like Lucille Ball. I do get myself in predicaments often. Maybe humor will get through to him better. Maybe even dark humor. When he comes home I could tell him he might want to be a little more warm and fuzzy or else I'll go all Bobbit on him. Then I'll serve hot dogs for dinner!

[DNA]

I spent many years dating and spending a couple years here and there in various relationships. But by and large I spent 20 years dating until I met my wife.

Along the way I developed a certain ethical criteria in my dating habits.

If a married women with no children who's husband I had never met engaged me I didn't really have a moral problem with that.

If perchance I had met the husband and went so far as to shake his hand, then guy code is enacted and I'm not going to do anything my will power will prevent me from doing.

If a woman has kids and she is in a relationship with either the biological father of the kids or a man of whom is in the working role as father I would not have ANYTHING to do with that. There are karmic ramifications involved with possibly affecting the life of children and their upbringing. And anyone with even a hint of a conscious should have the moral compass to know this.

A man who steps into that role for merely fleshly gratifications is a piece of sh!t in my opinion.

The woman who steps into that role and displaces the stability and well being of her own children for fleshly gratification, especially long lasting extra involved affairs risks not only the trust and relationship of her children's caretaker, but that of her very own children as well. I've seen women do this feeling they can control the narrative in so far as their own children are concerned and some how find a way to blame this all on her cheated on mate but the truth eventually all comes out and the children's trust and love in their mother is often times negatively affected for the rest of their lives. I've seen this happen with both the biological father and men in the role of acting father and caretaker. One of my best friends has espoused venom and hatred of his own mother his entire life due to her cheating on the man he loved who was acting as his father and caretaker and he had no biological relation to him what so ever. His life was never the same and his views on women are still negatively affected as a result.

Quite a price to pay for a mother to sacrifice the love and trust of her children all for a little emotional and physical gratification. This is an ingrained knowledge people and especially women have, but this ingrained knowledge has been attacked and made to look contrary by western culture, media and cinema. A simple understandable truth has been scoffed at, ridiculed and nullified by talking heads and movie protagonists enabling the worst part of our ego's interests.

[TargeT]

I am wondering, does your lady have a sense of humor? Is she funny? Quirky... Off the wall a little? I have that type of personality and I can usually get him to open up more with humor. I don't want to make my relationship sound all bad.

Yea, absolutely, but also a strong leo so strong emotions usually spin her out of the humor realm to more serious stances.

I asked her to read this thread the other day to see if it helped her understand my thought proccess (even though I did not feel ready to let her know the full breadth of my considerations) and she may post here or may not (already has an account, just never was interested in participating or lurking) but she is truly a wonderful woman and I hope I haven't painted her as some villan here; we all make bad decisions and at times have acted on impulses we regret. I don't think that exactly fits her situation but I also think it's far more complex than even I have articulated here on this thread... its very hard to explain 6 years of out-of-the-box living I suppose.

You two should take a vacation down here and ride some horses, hang out on the beach etc ;) maybe you just need to get into a situation of true focus? (I can help you find stuff and it's not overly expensive if you do it right)


When he comes home I could tell him he might want to be a little more warm and fuzzy or else I'll go all Bobbit on him. Then I'll serve hot dogs for dinner!

I love the plan! who knows what it takes to break through; for me it took a very hard slap to realize what I sort of knew all along.

I'd make sure they are the nice "foot long" sized hot dogs if you can, for just a little nod to him ;).

[WanderingRogue]

As I was reading through all of these posts, by TargeT and all of the replies, I have felt so many mixed emotions (sadness, happiness, guilt, anger, love, etc) and thought of so many things to say. Things I wanted to defend myself on, to clarify, to ask forgiveness for....but in the end, I realized that the most important thing I have to say is how INCREDIBLY lucky I am to have someone as kind, loving, honest, open minded, understanding and compassionate as TargeT in my life. I love you Baby Cakes more than can be put into words. Thank you for being every wonderful thing that you are!!

I do lurk around here on these forums more than anyone knows...lol

[TargeT]

Your my best friend and since the only real powers I have in the universe are forgiveness and acceptance; I'm going to stand in my own power.

Sometimes its hard to remember that only those people in our daily lives are really the ones who's opinions really matter to us; the rest is a strange phenomenon best described here:



Taming the Mammoth: Why You Should Stop Caring What Other People Think
Part 1: Meet Your Mammoth

The first day I was in second grade, I came to school and noticed that there was a new, very pretty girl in the class—someone who hadn’t been there the previous two years. Her name was Alana and within an hour, she was everything to me.

When you’re seven, there aren’t really any actionable steps you can take when you’re in love with someone. You’re not even sure what you want from the situation. There’s just this amorphous yearning that’s a part of your life, and that’s that.

But for me, it became suddenly relevant a few months later, when during recess one day, one of the girls in the class started asking each of the boys, “Who do youuu want to marry?” When she asked me, it was a no-brainer. “Alana.”

Disaster.

I was still new to being a human and didn’t realize that the only socially acceptable answer was, “No one.”

The second I answered, the heinous girl ran toward other students, telling each one, “Tim said he wants to marry Alana!” Each person she told covered their mouth with uncontrollable laughter. I was finished. Life was over.

The news quickly got back to Alana herself, who stayed as far away from me as possible for days after. If she knew what a restraining order was, she’d have taken one out.

This horrifying experience taught me a critical life lesson—it can be mortally dangerous to be yourself, and you should exercise extreme social caution at all times.

Now this sounds like something only a traumatized second grader would think, but the weird thing, and the topic of this post, is that this lesson isn’t just limited to me and my debacle of a childhood—it’s a defining paranoia of the human species. We share a collective insanity that pervades human cultures throughout the world:

An irrational and unproductive obsession with what other people think of us.

Evolution does everything for a reason, and to understand the origin of this particular insanity, let’s back up for a minute to 50,000BC in Ethiopia, where your Great2,000 Grandfather lived as part of a small tribe.

Back then, being part of a tribe was critical to survival. A tribe meant food and protection in a time when neither was easy to come by. So for your Great2,000 Grandfather, almost nothing in the world was more important than being accepted by his fellow tribe members, especially those in positions of authority. Fitting in with those around him and pleasing those above him meant he could stay in the tribe, and about the worst nightmare he could imagine would be people in the tribe starting to whisper about how annoying or unproductive or weird he was—because if enough people disapproved of him, his ranking within the tribe would drop, and if it got really bad, he’d be kicked out altogether and left for dead. He also knew that if he ever embarrassed himself by pursuing a girl in the tribe and being rejected, she’d tell the other girls about it—not only would he have blown his chance with that girl, but he might never have a mate at all now because every girl that would ever be in his life knew about his lame, failed attempt. Being socially accepted was everything.

Because of this, humans evolved an over-the-top obsession with what others thought of them—a craving for social approval and admiration, and a paralyzing fear of being disliked. Let’s call that obsession a human’s Social Survival Mammoth. It looks something like this:
https://28oa9i1t08037ue3m1l0i861-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Mammoth1.png

Your Great2,000 Grandfather’s Social Survival Mammoth was central to his ability to endure and thrive. It was simple—keep the mammoth well fed with social approval and pay close attention to its overwhelming fears of nonacceptance, and you’ll be fine.

And that was all well and fine in 50,000BC. And 30,000BC. And 10,000BC. But something funny has happened for humans in the last 10,000 years—their civilization has dramatically changed. Sudden, quick change is something civilization has the ability to do, and the reason that can be awkward is that our evolutionary biology can’t move nearly as fast. So while for most of history, both our social structure and our biology evolved and adjusted at a snail’s pace together, civilization has recently developed the speed capabilities of a hare while our biology has continued snailing along.

Our bodies and minds are built to live in a tribe in 50,000BC, which leaves modern humans with a number of unfortunate traits, one of which is a fixation with tribal-style social survival in a world where social survival is no longer a real concept. We’re all here in 2014, accompanied by a large, hungry, and easily freaked-out woolly mammoth who still thinks it’s 50,000BC.

Why else would you try on four outfits and still not be sure what to wear before going out?

Trying on Shirts
https://28oa9i1t08037ue3m1l0i861-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/4-shirts-1-1024x705.png

https://28oa9i1t08037ue3m1l0i861-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/4-shirts-2-1024x703.png

https://28oa9i1t08037ue3m1l0i861-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/4-shirts-3-1024x694.png

https://28oa9i1t08037ue3m1l0i861-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/4-shirts-4-1024x733.png

The mammoth’s nightmares about romantic rejection made your ancestors cautious and savvy, but in today’s world, it just makes you a coward; And don’t even get the mammoth started on the terror of artistic risks:
https://28oa9i1t08037ue3m1l0i861-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/singing-1-1024x785.png

The mammoth’s hurricane of fear of social disapproval plays a factor in most parts of most people’s lives. It’s what makes you feel weird about going to a restaurant or a movie alone; it’s what makes parents care a little too much about where their child goes to college; it’s what makes you pass up a career you’d love in favor of a more lucrative career you’re lukewarm about; it’s what makes you get married before you’re ready to a person you’re not in love with.

And while keeping your highly insecure Social Survival Mammoth feeling calm and safe takes a lot of work, that’s only one half of your responsibilities. The mammoth also needs to be fed regularly and robustly—with praise, approval, and the feeling of being on the right side of any social or moral dichotomy.

Why else would you be such an image-crafting douchebag on Facebook?

Or brag when you’re out with friends even though you always regret it later?
https://28oa9i1t08037ue3m1l0i861-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/brag-700x1024.png

Society has evolved to accommodate this mammoth-feeding frenzy, inventing things like accolades and titles and the concept of prestige in order to keep our mammoths satisfied—and often to incentivize people to do meaningless jobs and live unfulfilling lives they wouldn’t otherwise consider taking part in.

Above all, mammoths want to fit in—that’s what tribespeople had always needed to do so that’s how they’re programmed. Mammoths look around at society to figure out what they’re supposed to do, and when it becomes clear, they jump right in. Just look at any two college fraternity pictures taken ten years apart:
https://28oa9i1t08037ue3m1l0i861-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/frat1-1024x443.png

Or all those subcultures where every single person has one of the same three socially-acceptable advanced degrees, Sometimes, a mammoth’s focus isn’t on wider society as much as it’s on winning the approval of a Puppet Master in your life. A Puppet Master is a person or group of people whose opinion matters so much to you that they’re essentially running your life. A Puppet Master is often a parent, or maybe your significant other, or sometimes an alpha member of your group of friends. A Puppet Master can be a person you look up to who you don’t know very well—maybe even a celebrity you’ve never met—or a group of people you hold in especially high regard.

We crave the Puppet Master’s approval more than anyone’s, and we’re so horrified at the thought of upsetting the Puppet Master or feeling their nonacceptance or ridicule that we’ll do anything to avoid it. When we get to this toxic state in our relationship with a Puppet Master, that person’s presence hangs over our entire decision-making process and pulls the strings of our opinions and our moral voice.

With so much thought and energy dedicated to the mammoth’s needs, you often end up neglecting someone else in your brain, someone all the way at the center—your Authentic Voice.

Your Authentic Voice, somewhere in there, knows all about you. In contrast to the black-and-white simplicity of the Social Survival Mammoth, your Authentic Voice is complex, sometimes hazy, constantly evolving, and unafraid. Your AV has its own, nuanced moral code, formed by experience, reflection, and its own personal take on compassion and integrity. It knows how you feel deep down about things like money and family and marriage, and it knows which kinds of people, topics of interest, and types of activities you truly enjoy, and which you don’t. Your AV knows that it doesn’t know how your life will or should play out, but it tends to have a strong hunch about the right step to take next.

And while the mammoth looks only to the outside world in its decision-making process, your Authentic Voice uses the outside world to learn and gather information, but when it’s time for a decision, it has all the tools it needs right there in the core of your brain.

Your AV is also someone the mammoth tends to ignore entirely. A strong opinion from a confident person in the outside world? The mammoth is all ears. But a passionate plea from your AV is largely dismissed until someone else validates it.

And since our 50,000-year-old brains are wired to give the mammoth a whole lot of sway in things, your Authentic Voice starts to feel like it’s irrelevant. Which makes it shrink and fade and lose motivation.Eventually, a mammoth-run person can lose touch with their AV entirely.

In tribal times, AVs often spent their lives in quiet obscurity, and this was largely okay. Life was simple, and conformity was the goal—and the mammoth had conformity covered just fine.

But in today’s large, complex world of varying cultures and personalities and opportunities and options, losing touch with your AV is dangerous. When you don’t know who you are, the only decision-making mechanism you’re left with is the crude and outdated needs and emotions of your mammoth. When it comes to the most personal questions, instead of digging deep into the foggy center of what you really believe in to find clarity, you’ll look to others for the answers. Who you are becomes some blend of the strongest opinions around you.

Losing touch with your AV also makes you fragile, because when your identity is built on the approval of others, being criticized or rejected by others really hurts. A bad break-up is painful for everyone, but it stings in a much deeper place for a mammoth-run person than for a person with a strong AV. A strong AV makes a stable core, and after a break-up, that core is still holding firm—but since the acceptance of others is all a mammoth-run person has, being dumped by a person who knows you well is a far more shattering experience.

Likewise, you know those people who react to being criticized by coming back with a nasty low-blow? Those tend to be severely mammoth-run people, and criticism makes them so mad because mammoths cannot handle criticism.t this point, the mission should be clear—we need to figure out a way to override the wiring of our brain and tame the mammoth. That’s the only way to take our lives back.

The rest is here. (https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/06/taming-mammoth-let-peoples-opinions-run-life.html)

[Mike]

Wow, I'm totally blown away by this thread, particularly the latter half. Totally blown away.

TargeT, huge respect to you for baring your soul here. Gutsy as hell. Wow.

What happens when cheating occurs, is the mind runs wild! Right? It gets busy breaking down and analyzing every bit of information available to it, and then fills in the rest with imagining all the things that isn't available to it yet, or it imagines isn't available to it. Totally overwhelming.

You get stuck between wanting to know everything and not wanting to know everything...and then after you've been told everything (supposedly) wondering incessantly if that is indeed everything, or is your significant other still holding stuff back?

It's an interesting discussion to be having now, for me, having just seen the documentary 'Wormwood'. The son spends his entire life trying to find out if his Dad was murdered by the CIA...and when he does, eventually, he cant say honestly whether he's any better off emotionally or mentally for having gone thru that whole process. There's an implication there that maybe it would have been best to simply let it go.

Now, logically that might make sense! One could make a sound argument for letting things be, like the example given in Bill's post. But here's the deal: the heart doesn't respond to logic, no matter how sensical or brilliantly expressed. If it did, we'd all recover from heartbreak the instant some idiot told us "there's plenty of fish left in the sea".

An argument could be made that a union of any kind is more a declaration of insecurity than love. We needto know that this person is committed to us. Or is it our egos that need to know this? It's an interesting question.

Despite that, and despite monogamy perhaps being biologicllay unnatural, our hearts still desperately seek out a partner, a mate. I mean honestly ..is there really any better feeling in the world than being in love with someone....one person? And having that one person reciprocate that love?

I could make an intellectual argument for "open" relationships, but I could never make an emotional one. I'd just be lying to myself, because I know what my heart desires. My mind could justify it all day, but I'd be constantly walking around in enormous emotional pain. Granted, not everyone is like me.

It would seem that a successful relationship is a marriage of the hearts and minds of 2 people, and the delicate balance of needs between those hearts and minds. Even with just 2 people, It's enormously complicated man! For me, a romantic relationship only exists if it has borders, something identifying it as unique and different from the other relationships in one's life. The second it becomes "open", it sort of ceases to exist; it dissolves. Because the very thing that defined it is now gone.

I was in a brief open relationship, and i was existentially lost LOL! I didn't know what the rules were anymore; I didn't know how to behave; I didn't know what my role was in this person's life anymore. It was really confusing. And as hip and mature and open as we liked to think we were, we quickly realized it was just too damn emotionally complicated.

If you're not a very emotional person to begin with, perhaps it could be pulled off. But isn't that defeating the purpose? Personally, I want as an intense of an emotional bond as possible with my mate, with all the good and bad that accompanies it. Of course monogamy does provide inevitable issues! But i think open relationships provides many, many more.

Lastly, I've been the cheater and the cheatee, several times over. No judgements coming from me, at all! I admire you all for opening up and taking this topic on in such a transparent way.

[TargeT]

Been doing a lot of studying, American's are ****ed up ;) haha....

Lots of interesting relationship stuff out there, I've listened to a lot of this smart lady:
VLhMOr0AH8I

We are going to Orlando for a family vacation, still working on us and I think we are doing awesome.

[Morbid]

wow what a thread. Target, i highly value your input here - sharing helps alot & from what i can see you're on the right path. after all we're here for the experience & learning, so try to be in the now & dont let the past affect you in this moment. by extracting what you can from this you'll be better suited for what's to come next! - you'll love it!

[TargeT]

The more I study it the more wrong I think western society is... we are no where near the traditional model even in our "traditional relationships"

Monogamy has a definition, and unless you've been with the same person your entire life, we are in violation of the basic definition.

There are so many pre-consieved notions that are tied into DEEP emotional binds.. but they make little logical sense...

I am working through this stage now, and I think I see acceptance and support as the best way for all.

I'm very happy with where we are at right now, despite the recent challenges... I think those challenges are exactly what we've both needed and have made our relationship reach levels that would be unacheivable with out this emphasis and refocus.

It's bad, but its good... if that makes sense :)

I wouldn't have it any other way :)

[TargeT]

ok, quick update... I guess i feel it's obligitory; though in reality this is probably on no ones mind but me and those involved in my life....

We are doing very well, this situation has refocused us both; we have decided that we both need to be very strong individuals who choose to be together, not people who depend on each other for happiness (a very healthy take, but harder to achieve than I thought originally).

We are both far busier than is easily explained, so online counseling is what we opted for to improve communication and working on our relationship... if nothing else we decided that we both want the other in our life & are willing to work through anything to achieve that.

The details wander on this a bit, but are irrelevant based on the above.... There were a lot of ups and downs until about 2 weeks ago; but now we seem to be on a very solid track where we both understand the current immediate needs of each other; and are willing to start from there and build. Ironically enough we had an almost zero communication relationship for years... this was a very needed change as we are talking about things that should have been discussed with in the first few months of us meeting... haha

As I tell my kids all the time.....

If it was easy, it wouldn't be fun...

Perspective rules all.. rule your perspective!



We are going to Orlando for a family vacation,

btw, this was a terrible idea... haha don't do this if you already have stress in your life :inlove:

Keep it simpler ;)

[Foxie Loxie]

TargeT....So glad you are coming through this! :thumbsup: I can totally relate to your "zero communication" for years comment!

In my first marriage I was bound by the religious rules I had been raised in.....which meant there WAS no communication!....just rules to be complied with! From my own experience I would say it is VERY difficult to "connect" if one hasn't done so from the beginning, so I applaud your effort & may you BOTH find your "groove" & move smoothly along! :inlove:

By the way, have you noticed Bob's post on the refinery situation where you are living? Glad Beryl missed you!! :dancing:

[DNA]

The Guess Who, a Canadian band, made a song called "American Woman". I understood it, besides it's great beat, when it came out. It rang true then and I do my best not to play it around others because it is not true for at least a small group of American woman who have stood in their own power, internal beauty and balance, unaffected by all of the b.s. programming they have to endure growing up.

Most women here in the states don't have a clue as to how many men look at them in such a soulful way, even as they fly from one superficial relationship to another, desensitizing themselves to all of crap they are absorbing, taking classes to deal with their inner children just so they can become as lame as the jerks they screw. Did you ever wonder why god made batteries? Could it have just been a compassionate gesture to all of the women out there, or what?

In that vein I have a smile on my face when I hear my son tell me about meeting some girl's parents in another country, as he was raised with a heart centered respect telling him that how he treats himself must be the basis of any relationship he develops. Hell, I have a friend who was adamant in not introducing me to any women in the largest town nearby, so negative is her experience with them.

I've said this before and it bears repeating...
If you do not massage each other every day, or at least every other day, and do so with an intimacy that develops a deep knowledge with your partner's body you should not be allowed to have sex. Why isn't that a prerequisite for getting a marriage license, something I find not worth the paper it's written on anyway, let alone for the continuation of any sexual relationship. Who the F##K are you people anyway?

I look at many lives and I say W. T. F. are you doing to yourself, treating yourself this way, bending over backwards for such a demeaning amount of attention. You are worth so much more, but not if you don't believe it enough to know it is true. Hey, say it to yourself and hear yourself say it. You have been lied to in so many ways, why would you deny yourself creating your own reality beyond those inhumane narratives?

Yes, I've known the simplicity of Dawn's observations and experiences about the connections that intimacy makes since I can recall seeing it in others as a little kid. I knew when married couples were cheating on each other. I saw it and wondered why they would play the games of hiding it and I saw the pain and insecurities it caused their husbands and wives. The connections with their hidden others, mainly people in their daily lives, was out in the open as far as I could plainly see. The training to desensitize people must begin very early on in their lives. Sad.

By the way, take that so-called chi expert's books for the hints about energy that they are, not the truths they aren't. I knew a long time student of his who left him because of his constant habit of screwing his female students, and this well known saxophone player got into a lot of detail about the great degree of insensitivities he showed. Yes, apply that to the validity of his so-called insights and methods. Walk the Walk, MF'er, or not.

That reminds me of two men I know who bragged to me about how many women they had sex with. My immediate response to both of them was "Are you really that bad of a lover that you can't keep a woman satisfied beyond your pretend intimacy?" (Actually it was more vulgar than that, but you get the idea). I couldn't understand bragging about any of that and their responses, both telling me that they were now with only one woman, bore out the truth of it's ignorance.

DNA, not a fan of that music but because of it's truth I loved it and rocked out to it. Truth cannot ever be denied, whatever form it takes. Thanks.

Oh my gosh this was a good post.
And this is a great thread.
An awesome thread with beautiful personal stories.

It's just a joy to read.
I sought this thread out to ask a question.

In the spirit of this thread, and in the spirit of the times we live in I want to ask a question.
A vaccine sex question.
If the COVID vaccine is an MRNA shot effectively rewriting our DNA, to what extent is that taking place and is it sexually transmittable?

I was shown this crazy a$$ COVID MRNA video by Iota.
All I can say is D@mn! I mean D@mn!
The MRNA makes an extra stand of DNA? A third strand?
Really? Please watch!

J6gIzH5MdT93

[TomKat]

I don't think it's wrong per se, but I don't know of many committed relationships that survived cheating. The cheater tends to becomes hyper critical of the other in order to subconsciously diminish the betrayal. Emotional unity disappears. Then someone says "we have to talk, I need my space."

[heretogrow]

So proud of myself. I still have never cheated on my man although the past few years have had some tough times.I thought long and hard and decided it was not for me.

[TomKat]

cheaters.com :-)

4xjQoMb2GNU

[Ernie Nemeth]

It's the cheating that's wrong, not the having sex with someone other than one's mate.

[TargeT]

We are doing very well, this situation has refocused us both.....

Yeah, so that didn't work out... I gave the business to her (still on the board for the non profit) and moved to northern VA for work.

I don't regret the effort I went through on the situation and all the learning that accompanied it, but ultimately the relationship was already dead. The betrayal built to almost "insane" levels with actions taken and lies maintained that shocked me enough to end it.

I hope she's doing well, but I don't really care very much.


I had a rebound and now am exploring the MGTOW movement... I don't need a relationship and the complexities that come with it; especially when they seem to be consistently fairly one sided.

Life goes on eh?

[Antagenet]

This thread may make me the enemy of the forum.........but I just gotta bring this up.

Why is cheating in a relationship considered wrong? I find that most people who are stuck with one person all their life tend to decline in health at a fast rate (put on weight, lose their passion and enthusiasm for life etc), while those who stay living the single life look so much younger, healthier and more fit.

After a long time in a relationship, most men and women start to develop wandering eyes, the sex between them tends to become quite grey, that's if it still exists at all.

Now I know most of you will try to give me an example of a relationship that is working out perfectly after x amount of decades, but that is probably less than 1% of humanity who will ever encounter the stereo typical soul mate to live the rest of their life with happily ever after.

Why do we get jealous when someone cheats? When you think about this logically, isn't this selfish behaviour? To expect someone MUST give themselves to you and ONLY you, for the rest of their lives........doesn't that sound wrong to you? Even scientists have supposedly found that "cheating" is in our dna, that is, for a man to feel the need to spread his seed to many different women to ensure survival of his lineage.

Now I'm not saying we should all become promiscuous, if you're truly happy in a long term relationship, kudos to you. All I'm saying is I think when we fall in love, the endorphins rush, we have an amazing time with one special person, and then that river eventually starts to dry up for most people, yet some of us force ourselves to stay in that relationship while dehydrating because "we should be together forever"

“They spoil every romance by trying to make it last forever.” - Oscar Wilde

The problem with cheating is that it degrades one moral character to lie. Especially to someone that you profess to love, that believes you love them. It is destructive.