Question about forum moderation

[Ilie Pandia]

Hello,

As a forum administrator, besides technical support, I also have mod duties.

A big part of the mod duties is protecting this forum. Why does this forum need protecting and who from?

Here is a list:

- trolls that look to trash specific threads that may upsetting to somebody out there

- make sure that conversation is respectful so that everyone has a fair chance to be heard and not bullied around

- make sure that no threats are made publicly or privately on forum members, keeping this a safe environment as possible

- prevent forum sliding and topic dilution (see here: http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/cointelpro-techniques-for-dilution-misdirection-and-control-of-an-internet-forum/question-2270035/)

- allowing the forum to grow and develop, but still keep it in line with what makes this forum a unique place and aligned with its mission

- protect the forum from those that want it destroyed by destroying its content and focus (see forum sliding and trolling), by chasing away members that want to learn or those that make valuable contributions (see bulling and making threats), and by posting a lot of dis-information and fake debates just to muddy the waters and make the truth that much harder to see

Ideally, all the above duties should be shared with all the forum members, but not everybody has the time to actively pursue those and I am not that naive as to think that we do not have our own trolls and disruptive agents on board. (One the best way for trolls and agents to cause trouble is to enlist help from members, while posing as saints and make life that much harder for everybody else). -- Due to the timing of this post I need to specify that I am not including Lord Sidious in the list of trolls or agents, (although I strongly believe that his "nuggets" and "carrots" are not always helpful) --

Also as moderator I have access to some tools (that some have chosen to call "powers") to help me with my mission stated above.

So my question to you is: how would you have me perform my duty without the forum members calling me:
- control freak
- big brother
- thought police
- free speech attacker
- suppressor
you get the picture...

How would you have me act to help keeping this place positive, respectful and informative? Just "let it be" or "take break" or "back off" (and other suggestions I've received)? Would not that mean the disruptive agents have won? When this forum will have tons of non-sense, virtually no visits, will then everybody be happy? Is me not caring anymore, the answer to my dilemma?

[Anchor]

You[1] are doing a great job in my opinion.

Keep going as you are.

Learn from mistakes made as we all do and if you think it necessary, a few refinements.

--
[1] all the moderators in fact.

[TargeT]

I think your trying to put out a fire by removing heat as it builds to combustion...

I think you should wait for it to flare up then put it out with a blanket.

HOWEVER; your going to have to really decide if you want to baby sit children, or allow a free flow of information.

by CHILDREN I mean people that would take offence to a word on a screen (nugget for example) what if I take offence to the word "you"?.... Do we take personal responsability and REALISE that the ONLY TIME somoene can insult you is WHEN YOU ALLOW THEM TO, or are we going to externalise our power and hope the badman will go away (or be taken away by a "higher power" and my god.. humans LOVE this paradiegm).

HUGE discussion on this at atticus1, very very difficult topic to tackle when dealing with inteligent individuals... if we aren't that (inteligent) then just lay down a list of arbitrary limits, rules, black words, white words & the problems will still exsist (IMO).

this is a great topic.. but I think you can distill it to something along these lines:

Are you (the reader) going to externalise your power by allowing others to have an effect over you with a random arangement of 26 letters, or are you (the reader) going to be an emotionally inteligent individual and read information as information; set emotion aside (as it has little use on the internet) and be contributive to the conversation at hand....

[aranuk]

Of course not Ilie. As far as I am concerned I have found your wisdom and intelligence a great help here at Avalon. Not only that but you take part in the discussions as a member does by using your faculties to ask more questions, doubt what some people have taken aboard without thinking too much, Ilie just you keep on doing what you do Sir. I know you and trust you as well.

Stan

[noprophet]

I pretty well agree with Anchor ~ though the more experimental side of myself is curious what this forum would look like without moderation for a week. Literally.

Not to say don't remove viagra ads and such obvious spam as that- but simply refrain from moving/editing/locking topics.

Mind, I am not saying this with any judgement - I simply would be interested in how the forum does with a week of basic moderation.

[Aryslan]

It sounds, to me, like you know your job on the forum to the letter, Ilie. I strongly suspect that many, many mods on forums across the internet struggle with exactly the same problems you have presented. Making a post such as this is important, as it reminds us (non-mod/admins) that your head is in the right place. As to your question of "how should I", my answer (opinion) to that is to act with discernment and imagination working in tandem. Best of luck.

[pharoah21]

In almost all decisions we have to make in life, one party will think you're right, and one party will think you're wrong. Don't be too swayed by it.

[Nasu]

Yea, throw the towel in before it gets any harder. is my advice.... N

[Anchor]

@TargeT: Yes, people that get offended by stuff written on a screen, are probably tuned tighter to this illusion than is good for their health!

The Avalon node of this matrix is one of the better ones.

The reason for that is the way this forum is moderated and looked after.

Tolerance failures happened and got blown out of proportion.

Avalon is well used to that.

It is after all, a target rich environment!

This too will pass.

And then it will happen again ;)

[noprophet]

This might be a bit controversial, but what would the mods think about making the moderator forum view-able by members?

[Anchor]

This might be a bit controversial, but what would the mods think about making the moderator forum view-able by members?

No freaking way should that happen.

Like it or not, the moderators are taking a lead.

Leaders need to communicate privately.

This is not a matter of old/new paradigm.

It is necessary to have moderators because we can clearly see that many people on this forum cannot self-moderate.

[Gardener]

Hmmm interesting post Illie, check out the forum sliders part especially.

[Mark]

I`ve been in your position as an Admin and moderator on boards with intelligent and creative souls like this and know how hard it is. You, personally, I think are doing a great job. By nature, it`s not going to ever be pretty and in a place like this its gonna get ugly sometimes. It`s impossible to please everyone and you know your job, you can`t do it and shouldn`t even try. Boards like this where there are agents and trolls, its even harder if there is a concerted and sneaky effort to undermine.

Probably the only suggestion I might give in answer to the above is not to be so accessible to people`s gripes. I know that`s gonna make the free-speech and democracy people upset, but, really, you don`t have to take their abuse directly as you are doing a job and it is not personal for you. It`s a job. You`re enforcing the rules, which may sometimes seem a bit harsh but it is absolutely necessary to keep this forum safe for those of us who come here and enjoy a relatively peaceful atmosphere where the spirit of debate and open discussion is there to the point where disagreement can happen, but if it gets nasty, there`s gonna be repercussions. That`s good enuf for me.

[DouglasDanger]

Keep on keeping on Iile,
I for one like the site the way it is, anyone being a troll, slider or bully needs to told, Hey your a bully and your antics are not appreciated, bullies come in all forms, even peace loving hippies sometimes become bullies. I have taken time to write reponces to posts that have taken me 30 40 minutes to write only to reread delete and scrap them because I didn't like the way my opionion on the matter read ( to trollish, to mean spirited, to far off topic)( i posted a mean spirited one a day or so ago that i am not happy with myself about writing and posting, it was heartless.)

I also understand some people do not have the time to reread, just don't or cannot see what they are writing is hurtfull in a not so meaning to be harmfull way. This is the reason for Moderators, to take the time to assess whats written and maybe agree or disagree with the post in question.
With out kind folks like you lending your time and effort this site would be just as offensive as crap I have read in responces on YouTube..
So even though I may not agree with decisions made some times I understand and appreciate the time that moderators put into this place..

:) Thank you for your hard work mods!

[atlantianferret]

Don't be afraid to admit your wrong when it happens.

Be consistent.

If something angers you or in some way builds a prejudice, seek counsel with your peers and/or possibly some members before you take action.

Remember members build this place.

smile... a lot

[Gaia]

Over the last year, i have noticed some not great decisions by different mods, but overall, it has worked out quite well. Keep the honest posts going ! We appreciate your comments, and support mods. After all, this forum would be pointless without the members !

Gaia

[Dennis Leahy]

There are trolls, and there are people who inadvertently act like trolls sometimes. The inadvertent trolls do not have a specific (nefarious) agenda, but overreact or knee-jerk into behavior that is trollish. They are most likely the ones YELLING at you behind the scenes, because they know they are not negative persons and know that they do not have a negative agenda. Therefore, they know they are good guys, and so they believe that they deserve 100% free speech (un-moderated) privileges.

No one deserves 100% free speech (un-moderated) privileges. This forum would be ruined in 24 hours if there was no moderation, and if some people were allowed to do whatever they want, un-moderated, those few individuals would quickly dominate the entire forum.

There are some very very bright people posting at Avalon, and they can (and some do) enter that gray zone where they choose words very carefully that break the spirit of the Avalon rules without appearing to break the rules.* So, there are judgment calls by the mods, and it is impossible to "call" every one of those correctly. I know from the moderator's seat, because I was honored to moderate here briefly. Whichever moderators are awake (different time zones) when something occurs are consulted, to make sure that at least a couple of mods are checking the situation.

Ilie, to directly answer your question, you (and the other mods) are doing an incredible job. It really is too bad you're not paid - you deserve a raise. (That's another thing people forget - the hundreds and hundreds of unpaid, volunteer hours that the mods - especially the admin/mods, Ilie and Paul, have spent to keep the infrastructure of the forum and the topic dialogue humming along nicely. Amazingly, for all of their technical skills, Ilie and Paul are not "pure geeks" - they have interpersonal "people" skills as well. Bill was VERY lucky to have found these two guys, and they have set the tone for all of the other wonderful mods to follow.

(*) Not to pick on Rob/LS, but gentrification of name calling (however silly and tongue-in-cheek) and faux 'threats' to insert a vegetable into a bodily orifice, is an example of gray zone behavior. It is probably light gray, but it does set a precedent of what is and is not acceptable - subtle enough where it may be especially difficult for new folks to pick up cues as to what is acceptable forum banter and what is just beyond that.

Dennis

[Carmody]

I pretty well agree with Anchor ~ though the more experimental side of myself is curious what this forum would look like without moderation for a week. Literally.

Not to say don't remove viagra ads and such obvious spam as that- but simply refrain from moving/editing/locking topics.

Mind, I am not saying this with any judgement - I simply would be interested in how the forum does with a week of basic moderation.

It would look like the comments section at YouTube or your given web based sports magazine.... and all the good hearted people would leave before the week is out. And leave the mob to themselves.

The end.

[HORIZONS]

Human nature being what it is, I say keep up the good work!

[spiritguide]

Iile, my only suggestion is to keep giving us more of the same you. Without you and the mods facilitating the forum as you are it would not be the desired location to share experiences as it is. I respect you and your decisions. Thank you for maintaining this open platform of education.


People embarked upon this path (forum) should respect the all of it and if they find it to be unbearable they should look elsewhere for one better to suit their needs. IMHO

[Carmody]

I think your trying to put out a fire by removing heat as it builds to combustion...

I think you should wait for it to flare up then put it out with a blanket.

HOWEVER; your going to have to really decide if you want to baby sit children, or allow a free flow of information.

You have to protect all members of a given forum.

This means that the people who like to interact with something that is akin to throwing punches (feels -and is- normal to their personality) are simply going have to understand that if they choose to push that all the way, or more than a few times, .well..their ticket will get punched. Whether they understand it or not.

A note to those who have witnessed (involved themselves in) this whole recent bit: have enough self respect and self control... to never make the forum moderators go through such hell again.

Thank you. :)


I bring my best or better behavior here, as I don't disrespect my fellow forum members. I keep my screaming and shouting outside of this place.

Some people think that, due to the way they've used and become familiarized with the net for the past 10 years or so, that forums are for relieving the screaming that they might do at home or work, or elsewhere. They vent here to try and save their home life.... hell, they bring their life tensions here, to vent. Granted, the number is few or we have a well controlled crew here..possibly. We do learn.

Well, not this forum.

This forum is for bringing your head to.

The subjects and data here are hard enough to fathom, without obscuring it with emotions that should be vented elsewhere.

I'm being imperious here, and I apologize for it. The above is my opinion and my 'modus operandi.'

But... I think it is effective. It was hard won... and I am quite battle scarred. But... wiser. I hope. :pray:

I think it is a good way to do it. for I've been on forums before the net existed and this is the only way I've ever been successful with forums....or seen successful forums.

[sandy]

Bottom line is the Mods are doing a great job overall>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thank you for your service for without it Avalon would not be or have quality when it comes to forums online.

Personally if I don't like something I express how I feel to the person and if they want to get into a pissing match I disengage due to the lack of emotional maturity. It is called personal responsibilty for your actions and not others and one does not have to continue to interact versus have authority do their bidding. Thus, if something is highly inappropriate the mods usually spot or find it and clean it up as quick as they can.

[modwiz]

Let me put it this way. If the mods were baseball sluggers their averages would make them superstars. I can think of no better analogy where misses are part of a bigger picture and averaged out with the home runs.

So, big picture, long view, people will be human (to err is human) assessment...........great job guys and gals. :thumb:

Just don't get cocky now. :p

Was that too left handed a compliment?? :confused:

[Nasu]

There are trolls, and there are people who inadvertently act like trolls sometimes. The inadvertent trolls do not have a specific (nefarious) agenda, but overreact or knee-jerk into behavior that is trollish. They are most likely the ones YELLING at you behind the scenes, because they know they are not negative persons and know that they do not have a negative agenda. Therefore, they know they are good guys, and so they believe that they deserve 100% free speech (un-moderated) privileges.

No one deserves 100% free speech (un-moderated) privileges. This forum would be ruined in 24 hours if there was no moderation, and if some people were allowed to do whatever they want, un-moderated, those few individuals would quickly dominate the entire forum.

There are some very very bright people posting at Avalon, and they can (and some do) enter that gray zone where they choose words very carefully that break the spirit of the Avalon rules without appearing to break the rules.* So, there are judgment calls by the mods, and it is impossible to "call" every one of those correctly. I know from the moderator's seat, because I was honored to moderate here briefly. Whichever moderators are awake (different time zones) when something occurs are consulted, to make sure that at least a couple of mods are checking the situation.

Ilie, to directly answer your question, you (and the other mods) are doing an incredible job. It really is too bad you're not paid - you deserve a raise. (That's another thing people forget - the hundreds and hundreds of unpaid, volunteer hours that the mods - especially the admin/mods, Ilie and Paul, have spent to keep the infrastructure of the forum and the topic dialogue humming along nicely. Amazingly, for all of their technical skills, Ilie and Paul are not "pure geeks" - they have interpersonal "people" skills as well. Bill was VERY lucky to have found these two guys, and they have set the tone for all of the other wonderful mods to follow.

(*) Not to pick on Rob/LS, but gentrification of name calling (however silly and tongue-in-cheek) and faux 'threats' to insert a vegetable into a bodily orifice, is an example of gray zone behavior. It is probably light gray, but it does set a precedent of what is and is not acceptable - subtle enough where it may be especially difficult for new folks to pick up cues as to what is acceptable forum banter and what is just beyond that.

Dennis

Nice one Dennis, well said

On top of that, Paul and Ilie oversee a huge and diverse membership of people, many of them, by the very nature of this forum, are walking the path less trodden and are thus rebellious souls by nature.

The fact of the matter is that every move either of them make is considered and discussed at length with other mods.

I feel privileged to be a part of this forum for the path less trodden, warts and all… N

[Mike]

I pretty well agree with Anchor ~ though the more experimental side of myself is curious what this forum would look like without moderation for a week. Literally.

Not to say don't remove viagra ads and such obvious spam as that- but simply refrain from moving/editing/locking topics.

Mind, I am not saying this with any judgement - I simply would be interested in how the forum does with a week of basic moderation.

It would look like the comments section at YouTube or your given web based sports magazine.... and all the good hearted people would leave before the week is out. And leave the mob to themselves.

The end.

exactly. it's a numbers game.

it is a very fine line these mods walk, a veritable tight-rope. 1 subtle shift in balance and
there are a select few who will no doubt be screaming 'censorship' or 'thought police'
or whatever. it's silly.

they HAVE to err on the side of caution - no question. of course this will inevitably result in some
feeling they have been unfairly treated, but this is the 'lesser of the evils' as they say. some may
even leave as a result, but many more would leave (or not even register) if trolling or
obnoxious behavior is left free to flourish.

simple math.

the problem is, like referees sport, mods only get noticed when a member or members
feel they have screwed up somehow; and then there's this mob mentality - LET'S HAND IT TO THE
MODS! - with everyone conveniently forgetting the vast amount of time and energy they all
contribute to the forum - uncompensated time and energy at that!

perhaps we need a 'contribution' button for mods as well. why the hell not? you guys deserve it.
you're all doing a great job!

[PurpleLama]

The the donate button for the mods should say "tip jar" and be a bright, hot pink.

[jp11]

Ilie,

I saw your post when it first came up and there were no reviews or replies yet...and didn't have the courage to respond.

I applaud you (and the other mods) for what you do here ...and I can't believe you're only 28 years old! My gosh at that age I could never have done what you are doing.

I've had mixed emotions as I read the "nugget" LS thread last night, even stayed up way too late so I could get to the end and as a result went into work 2.5 hours late today.

I've just started reading the David Icke book Human Race Get Off Your Knees. I admire him and agree with so much of what he has to say. Anyway, this is something from that book that I think addresses the situation here:
One of the first communications from psychic to David:


True love does not always give the receiver what it would like to receive, but it will always give that which is best for it. So welcome everything you receive whether you like it or not. Ponder on anything you do not like and see if you can see why it was necessary. Acceptance will then be very much easier.

And...

David was laughed at and ridiculed by college students when he first began his public speaking in 1991…but the events sold out sometimes weeks in advance. One night it went on for 15 minutes before he could begin. He writes
“There was uproar, and beer cups were thrown at the stage. I waited for this to die down and then said:

“You think I’m mentally ill, don’t you?”

“YEEEESSS,” came the collective reply.

“So what does that say about you then? You have paid to ridicule someone you have been conditioned to believe is mentally ill!”

You could hear a pin drop. It had dawned on them that their behavior was not a statement about me, but about themselves. It is a revelation we would all do well to remember: what we do and say is not a reflection of those we ridicule and condemn, but of ourselves.”

Thank you Ilie for your contribution here. Follow your heart which as David says is the connection to the big "I" or Consciousness. And from the book he writes:

Consciousness, the Silent Voice that speaks through ‘knowing’ and intution.

With much respect and affection,
jp :yo:

[jackovesk]

Hello,

As a forum administrator, besides technical support, I also have mod duties.

A big part of the mod duties is protecting this forum. Why does this forum need protecting and who from?

Here is a list:

- trolls that look to trash specific threads that may upsetting to somebody out there

- make sure that conversation is respectful so that everyone has a fair chance to be heard and not bullied around

- make sure that no threats are made publicly or privately on forum members, keeping this a safe environment as possible

- prevent forum sliding and topic dilution (see here: http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/cointelpro-techniques-for-dilution-misdirection-and-control-of-an-internet-forum/question-2270035/)

- allowing the forum to grow and develop, but still keep it in line with what makes this forum a unique place and aligned with its mission

- protect the forum from those that want it destroyed by destroying its content and focus (see forum sliding and trolling), by chasing away members that want to learn or those that make valuable contributions (see bulling and making threats), and by posting a lot of dis-information and fake debates just to muddy the waters and make the truth that much harder to see

Ideally, all the above duties should be shared with all the forum members, but not everybody has the time to actively pursue those and I am not that naive as to think that we do not have our own trolls and disruptive agents on board. (One the best way for trolls and agents to cause trouble is to enlist help from members, while posing as saints and make life that much harder for everybody else). -- Due to the timing of this post I need to specify that I am not including Lord Sidious in the list of trolls or agents, (although I strongly believe that his "nuggets" and "carrots" are not always helpful) --

Also as moderator I have access to some tools (that some have chosen to call "powers") to help me with my mission stated above.

So my question to you is: how would you have me perform my duty without the forum members calling me:
- control freak
- big brother
- thought police
- free speech attacker
- suppressor
you get the picture...

How would you have me act to help keeping this place positive, respectful and informative? Just "let it be" or "take break" or "back off" (and other suggestions I've received)? Would not that mean the disruptive agents have won? When this forum will have tons of non-sense, virtually no visits, will then everybody be happy? Is me not caring anymore, the answer to my dilemma?

Join in the Discussion & Moderate in (Full View) of the participants, don't talk down to members and use some 'Common Sense'..!

Most of us come here because we hate (Govts, Beureacracies, etc) that Suppress' open discussion and try and quell 'Free Speech'...and 'Wave' Rules & Regulations with the Threat of punishment if they don't adhere!

Most 'Free Thinkers' hate (BEING TOLD) by anyone let alone from those that are meant to be on the (Same Side) then having to 'Suck it all Up', fearing expolsion if they really tell you what they think...

I think Avalon is the best online Forum barr none, and a lot of the indescrepencies that require Moderation are usually a 'Storm in Tea Cup'...and taken way out of proportion...

There is often 1 Rule for Moderators and None for any type of regress from Members...(I'd like to 'Ban or give a Holiday' to some of you guys at times)...

Its pretty simple Ilie/Mods if you don't want to be accused by members for being a (in your own words) - control freak - big brother - thought police - free speech attacker - suppressor..?

Don't act like one of them..!

(Relax) and give us the benefit of the doubt...(All of us here are on the same side, right?)

Most of us here are trying to do is to educate others and share ideas, and fight against the very things some have accused you of...

We have lost many excellent members in the past e.g. Zook http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/image.php?u=6&dateline=1313482174&type=thumb & Fredkc http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/image.php?u=2&dateline=1301684758&type=thumb Both I think were Moderators who used to join in on the debate with (Mod Hat Off) then when things got a little out of hand they would put a stop to certain quarrels by putting their (Mod Hat On) in full view of everyone (Not behind Closed Doors)...Problem solved.

Nobody is taking for granted the great work the Mods do, so let's come together and solve this ongoing Issue, once and for all...

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to 'Speak Freely' on this subject without the fear of been given a Holiday &/or being Banned...

My 2 cents worth...

Regards,

Jack

[ViralSpiral]

Hi Ilie

How sorry I am that you felt the need to write this. I do understand though.

You could turn this around and say that in order to take up a mod-job, know that you will be called:-
- control freak
- big brother
- thought police
- free speech attacker
- suppressor

Its not personal.
There will be tsunamis and lulls.
Casualties and growth.
You cannot control what is happening in peoples lives, outside of the forum, which they bring here.
Storms come, they go.... as do trolls.


Dont stop caring.

and thank YOU!!

[DoubleHelix]

The butt kissing is going way too far... I think many fear the retribution that might be taken against them if they speak out.

Granted, on the whole the mods do a good job.. but there are far too many cases of wrongdoing that get swept under the rug.

[ViralSpiral]

The butt kissing is going way too far... I think many fear the retribution that might be taken against them if they speak out.

Granted, on the whole the mods do a good job.. but there are far too many cases of wrongdoing that get swept under the rug.

Butt kissing.... mmmmmmmm, sounds fun
If that's what it takes to keep this place "sane", then I pucker up!
I fear no personal retribution. I do however, like it here and therefor make choices accordingly.
Besides, I get to confront my shadows. Not many other cool places to do so, for free :)



If & when the kitchen gets too crowded with Gordon Ramsay's, I will make new choices.....

[norman]

With so much diversity of ideas about the truth we are all allegedly searching for, there's a danger that we all just tip-toe around each other in fear of getting tagged as a bad apple by a contingent with polar opposite views. Tip-toeing around isn't going to get us anywhere in the long run, in my opinion. We are not here to be schooled in new age academia, nor are we here to utterly depress each other.

How the hell do you moderate a revolution? ( other than a very basic housekeeping, it seems like a paradox to me )

If Avalon is to become no more than a gathering of scholars keeping each other's spirits up and reinforcing our sense of superiority, are we going to find that fulfilling? This world is already full of groups who are 'doing-alright-thank-you-very-much'.

Are we just secretly nurturing a desire to graduate and get our 'spiritual' meal ticket?

I love a quiet life just as much as anyone else does but while I'm still in this body I'll feel the oneness of the human situation and probably continue to find bipolar societal mastery spiritually vomit making no matter how subtly it is disguised.

I wouldn't want to rock the boat, would I? I like being a part of something. I just wish it was really allowed to grow around all of humanity without flawed conditional terms of participation. I'm sure there are terms, I'm sure we have many different ideas here about what they are.

How do we bust that paradox?

[DNA]

Bottom line, I think there are folks who are just rebellious, and as counter intuitive as it is to me, they will lash out at anybody who wears the badge of authority.

These same folks tend to congregate together and share beliefs in this regard, and rail against the man whenever they get the chance.

Personally I think it is silly, and I wish folks would realize that the mods here are hardly the authoritative figuires in the world that need to be railed against.

But alas, it is the tale of the scorpion and the frog. There will always be folks of this nature, and they will always be willing to pull out their stingers and jab you with them regardless of how much you do for them.

Hopefully you understand that as loud as they may be, they are in the minority, and the vast majority of us here really appreciate you guys.





The butt kissing is going way too far...

I could say the same thing for folks who go out of there way to thank the same people over and over again regardless if what they are talking about is relevant to the thread topic, or merely toilet humor.

I for one like Sid now.
But I didn't at first.
When I first began posting here, not so long ago, he admonished me a couple of times with the term nugget. I equated nugget to noob.



Newbie or noob is a slang term for a novice or newcomer, or somebody inexperienced in any profession or activity.


Now I can appreciate the fact that I was new to Avalon, but I hardly felt like a noob when it came to the topics being discussed here.

The word can have different connotations depending on the tenor of the conversation taking place and the placement of the word in a statement.

And though I shrugged it off, I can see how some new members may not do so as easilly.

[vibrations]

OOO, Yes, you are doing a great job really.........................until you don't. What annoyed me was the silence from the part of the two of you who cooked the mess. You can go through the posts and you'll see what was my point. Just one small mention "maybe we wereoverreacting" would be enough.
I know your work is difficult many times, but was your choice. And with a choice the responsibility comes. More the 34pages thread was growing more clear picture came out and I am convinced my point of view is not far from the real picture.
With the absence of your reactions (which you think was correct to calm down everything at the end) to the provocations for example launched by me were heavy, you've gained (by me off course) a lot of minus points, which in some point will be visible, because for what I stand is if I made a mistake the best thing is to recognize maybe a bit of it and the fire comes down very much.
It's possible to do it and I hope you two will think it again in a future.

[vibrations]

And about what Modwiz said comparing baseball with moderators, I don't think you are superstars (analogy off course). I am beyond that thinking, I think we are all the same.

[karelia]

Just reading some of the replies on this thread, it's obvious that a lot of you have some preconceived idea about "moderation" I think, so I'll take the liberty to offer some ideas.

For starters, anyone who becomes a mod and then starts playing the power game would be out of the mod room faster than they can turn around. This isn't about power. It's about serving. If you think being a moderator is all about glory, then please wake up from your pleasant dream and accept reality. No significant decision is made by a single mod/admin UNLESS it's both a blatant disregard of forum guidelines AND no other mod is online. Which happens rarely. We're located in various timezones, and there is perhaps one hour in 24 when there is only one of us online.

Some admins/mods have been known to be available/online for 18 out of 24 hours for weeks on end. No, that isn't because our hourly rates are so fantastic. It's because we care about the forum. And no, we don't want to be paid in debt notes. That would simply feed the system we are so keen on seeing the back of. In an ideal world, everyone does what they love doing. Hopefully, when our world becomes ideal, there won't be a need for moderating this forum. In the meantime, as long as there is the need, the mods will be there to fill that need and do their best.

In the meantime, by all means criticize, but please be constructive about it! If you find that your favorite food supplier uses poisons, do you level a tirade against them and protest? Or do you simply go and find some other supplier who doesn't use poisons? If you use the former option, you may want to reflect on potential outcomes because 'anti' is never a good answer. It's destructive, in fact. The latter would be creative. As in CREATOR aka SOURCE.

This forum isn't a democracy or any other form of political body governing a nation.  It is a free association of people sharing some common interests and goals. There is much confusion in our time about the words "democracy" and "free speech".  A democracy, when the Bastards in Power control most of the main stream sources of information and propaganda, is not a rule by an informed citizenry, but a more subtle form of tyranny.  Free speech should be honored in its widest  scope in a mandatory association such a nation, in which all must belong, for if one's nation prohibits an expression, you have little practical alternative.  Obsessive striving for free speech in free association on the other hand risks destroying that association with a cacaphony of discordant voices, like the Tower of Babel, as it undermines an equally important freedom, that of the free association of like minded (on some topic) persons.

[ulli]

Ilie, remember our encounter when you were a young mod and I was the troll?
Actually I had been ordered to troll a thread by the OP herself who was scared that her thread might be closed by the mods if no one was contributing, during her absence.
So I dumped all my jokes files onto the thread, and didn't even notice when Ilie started putting up warning signs. I had not been on a moderated forum before. I didn't realize he meant ME.
So just as I hit 'send' on yet another cartoon a dark blue page came up:
You have been banned.
When will the ban be lifted : NEVER.
Whoa!! That was a shock! I couldn't even access my profile page which I had wallpapered with lots of personal items and files.
Kept staring at the forum page...I could still read, but not post.

Then suddenly I saw a tiny movement. One line inside my page was showing life and as I zoomed in I saw the thread titles being scrolled as new posts were coming in. This had to be what the mods were watching while checking the forum.'
Then I discovered the curser...and that I had the chance to communicate and write something.

So I wrote Hello! ....Helloooo!!! anybody there???? Like, I was inside this dungeon and I was calling the guards.
So Ilie appeared. So I explained myself. He had to consult with the others. They had to find the OP and check with her if it was true that she had given me the order to troll her thread.
Finally the guard arrived and I was released and could return into the upper halls of the castle of Avalon.
Ilie, thank you. You are my personal Zen master who chopped off my finger and I became enlightened.
Great job. Keep it up.

Folks, this is no ordinary forum, this is a mystery school. An enlightenment training.
The mods are your finger chopping Zen masters.
Once that is accepted as such you can then go out into the world and FEEL the muscles you have built here.
Long live Avalon!

[Cjay]

Ilie, I think you and the other mods do a fantastic job of keeping the forum from decaying into a free-for-all slanging match. None of us is perfect. Keep doing the best you can and be guided by your heart.

[norman]

...... 'anti' is never a good answer. It's destructive, in fact. The latter would be creative. As in CREATOR aka SOURCE.......



I see this point of view a lot. I like it's 'free will' as an ideal.

As I see things, there's a very fine line between turd polishing the bad paradigm to make it acceptably the 'way', and simply containing the worst cacophony of it's sickness. I support the principle of moderation in the latter case but am wary, by experience, of 'mission creep' towards maintaining the very thing that's wrong, the 'status que'.

The rules of polite behaviour that we inherit are rich in counterfeit royal sanctity. Let's not get too comfortable with that. That sort of thing leads onwards and upwards until it's another bloody religious dictate.

I liked the description ulli made of the Zen master that cuts off your finger. I think I can sniff a little bit of "anti" in that action ;)

[mahalall]

Accept it rockers the mods are heros
OlEPz8aA2WQ

Ilie your cool

6KEmL3yK4IA

[Calz]

I read the OP and that is it.

Not going to read the rest of the thread.

My own opinion is quite clear ... look at the results.

This forum is heads and shoulders above any other. Not really open for debate. Name another that approaches what we have here.

There must be a reason for that.

Stop and think about it ...

That does not mean I don't understand those voices speaking out (now and in the past) ... but you cannot have it both ways.

People need a "safe" comfort zone where they feel free to express themselves and that is what we have here.

I have been called a few names at times ... the mods are not the only ones to feel some heat at times. Part and parcel of jumping into the pool.

How about we appreciate what we have here and focus more on *why* we have come here rather than debate tearing it all down.

:yo:

IMHO

[John Parslow]

Join in the Discussion & Moderate in (Full View) of the participants, don't talk down to members and use some 'Common Sense'..!

Most of us come here because we hate (Govts, Beureacracies, etc) that Suppress' open discussion and try and quell 'Free Speech'...and 'Wave' Rules & Regulations with the Threat of punishment if they don't adhere!

Most 'Free Thinkers' hate (BEING TOLD) by anyone let alone from those that are meant to be on the (Same Side) then having to 'Suck it all Up', fearing expolsion if they really tell you what they think...

I think Avalon is the best online Forum barr none, and a lot of the indescrepencies that require Moderation are usually a 'Storm in Tea Cup'...and taken way out of proportion...

There is often 1 Rule for Moderators and None for any type of regress from Members...(I'd like to 'Ban or give a Holiday' to some of you guys at times)...

Its pretty simple Ilie/Mods if you don't want to be accused by members for being a (in your own words) - control freak - big brother - thought police - free speech attacker - suppressor..?

Don't act like one of them..!

(Relax) and give us the benefit of the doubt...(All of us here are on the same side, right?)

Most of us here are trying to do is to educate others and share ideas, and fight against the very things some have accused you of...

We have lost many excellent members in the past e.g. Zook & Fredkc Both I think were Moderators who used to join in on the debate with (Mod Hat Off) then when things got a little out of hand they would put a stop to certain quarrels by putting their (Mod Hat On) in full view of everyone (Not behind Closed Doors)...Problem solved.

Nobody is taking for granted the great work the Mods do, so let's come together and solve this ongoing Issue, once and for all...

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to 'Speak Freely' on this subject without the fear of been given a Holiday &/or being Banned...

My 2 cents worth...

Regards,

Jack

Brilliant jackovesk - exactly my thoughts much better expressed than I could - but you have hit my feelings spot on. I too used to value Zook et al who had the courage to 'discuss' things out in the open which is really why we are here on an open forum discussion - we are all on a learning curve here some further along than others. I think on the whole the MOD's here do a brilliant job but would like to see more transparency when issues like banning members raise their ugly heads ... well done MOD's but please understand most of us here are not out to 'get' anyone - just like to see fair play. Best regards to all. JP :cool:

[Muzz]

This world is bound by rules. The reason Avalon exists at all is a reaction to a global situation where people are breaking the rules or the wrong people have aquired the power to make them. Freedom to do what we want is chaos and will lead to ruin.

Thank you to the Mods for all your hard work. You are doing your job.

But also thanks to forum members for making sure the Mods behaviour is discussed. In case their has been an error (we are all human). That is the members job.

The discussion has to be respectful and constructive though.

I agree with Calz above, the proof is in the pudding.

[ulli]

I liked the description ulli made of the Zen master that cuts off your finger. I think I can sniff a little bit of "anti" in that action ;)

Right! Anti pointing the finger. :crutch:

[The One]

My friend it’s a bit like being a referee in a match you are never going to please everyone a job i would not wish on anyone. You are doing great

We are going to agree and sometimes disagree that’s just our human instinct. On Avalon we generally get on but sometimes we don’t and maybe we should just have a pause for thought sometimes and that goes for all of us


Love to you all big hugs :grouphug: and remember we are all special in our own way

[Seikou-Kishi]

This might be a bit controversial, but what would the mods think about making the moderator forum view-able by members?

Lol believe me the interest is far better for you than the disappointment you'd feel if you saw backstage

[Star1111]

Ilie - you don't have to change a thing. You do your job well and you are very fair.
Thank you and thanks to all the Mods!!

LOVE to you all

[ktlight]

When moderator decisions come to light and flood the open forum, I feel it is time then to throw light on the subject and get permission to post private stuff, such as PMs between mods and member, let the forum read for themselves and poll for the outcome. Such activity would take the heat off the moderators and fairness would thrive.

Otherwise, members would not even know that a decision has been taken and no ripples made.

[grapevine]

Dear Ilie,

I posted a thread a few months ago that could have brought about a banning. I didn't do it to be malicious and sought only to bring it to members' attention. You accepted my explanation and I'm very thankful that you did so. I think that there should be a clear element of intent or malice to warrant a banning. Also, a forum member should be given the opportunity to apologise if it has been pointed out that he or she has caused any upset or offence and the apology should be accepted in lieu of a banning. Too often people take things the wrong way - it's so easily done to misread a post after all. There is a very fine line that (imo) is acceptable to cross if somebody is taking the piss or tonguing in cheek. It would be hard to challenge opinion otherwise and it's important that we have open discussion without fear of retribution. I realise that the mods have to be seen to treat everyone "equally", but that is not the same as treating everybody the same. Difficult but do-able.

I would like to add Manny to the list of good people we have lost because of his indomitable style. I still miss his input.

I think that Lord Sidious would make a good mod :).

[WhiteFeather]

Hello,

As a forum administrator, besides technical support, I also have mod duties.

A big part of the mod duties is protecting this forum. Why does this forum need protecting and who from?

Here is a list:

- trolls that look to trash specific threads that may upsetting to somebody out there

- make sure that conversation is respectful so that everyone has a fair chance to be heard and not bullied around

- make sure that no threats are made publicly or privately on forum members, keeping this a safe environment as possible

- prevent forum sliding and topic dilution (see here: http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/cointelpro-techniques-for-dilution-misdirection-and-control-of-an-internet-forum/question-2270035/)

- allowing the forum to grow and develop, but still keep it in line with what makes this forum a unique place and aligned with its mission

- protect the forum from those that want it destroyed by destroying its content and focus (see forum sliding and trolling), by chasing away members that want to learn or those that make valuable contributions (see bulling and making threats), and by posting a lot of dis-information and fake debates just to muddy the waters and make the truth that much harder to see

Ideally, all the above duties should be shared with all the forum members, but not everybody has the time to actively pursue those and I am not that naive as to think that we do not have our own trolls and disruptive agents on board. (One the best way for trolls and agents to cause trouble is to enlist help from members, while posing as saints and make life that much harder for everybody else). -- Due to the timing of this post I need to specify that I am not including Lord Sidious in the list of trolls or agents, (although I strongly believe that his "nuggets" and "carrots" are not always helpful) --

Also as moderator I have access to some tools (that some have chosen to call "powers") to help me with my mission stated above.

So my question to you is: how would you have me perform my duty without the forum members calling me:
- control freak
- big brother
- thought police
- free speech attacker
- suppressor
you get the picture...

How would you have me act to help keeping this place positive, respectful and informative? Just "let it be" or "take break" or "back off" (and other suggestions I've received)? Would not that mean the disruptive agents have won? When this forum will have tons of non-sense, virtually no visits, will then everybody be happy? Is me not caring anymore, the answer to my dilemma?

You are the glue that keeps this forum together and stabilized with your utmost integrity. Wanishi! Don't change a thing, and if you do, I'm sure it will be for the betterment of this community we call Avalon,,, or as I call it my new found home.

[Ernie Nemeth]

You can kick me out anytime, Illie. NP

Don't worry, you can count on your integrity to make the right decision.

[eric charles]

Ohhh boy here we go again LOL , Ilie you should have left it at that , we were calm and your opening pandoras box again ,

some agree and some dont !! Now when are you Reinstating Rob ? ROFL

Nice Post Jackovesk , couldnt have said it better

[WhiteFeather]

Ohhh boy here we go again LOL , Ilie you should have left it at that , we were calm and your opening pandoras box again ,

some agree and some dont !! Now when are you Reinstating Rob ? ROFL

Nice Post Jackovesk , couldnt have said it better

Rob will be back shortly, and transformed into Gandalf The Grey! Hope this helps.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RVLfSMIB7K0/TRzC3sY5fMI/AAAAAAAAm3g/8IscY7AQvOk/s1600/Gandalf_RotK_2.jpg

[Amysenthia]

You do a great job as a moderator. Sometimes even the best posters can respond in "not the best way". Generally as long as someone is not blatantly calling another poster an outright "name" or condescendingly condemming what that person has posted, I say let the discussions continue. However, if you feel that you may be in a situation that is a tough call, always go with your gut. So far I have found that the site is generally well ordered. Is is important however that those that post often do not forget to go gently with those that may be new and asking what may be considered "old news" by those that post often.

Keep up the good work Ilie, your contribution is appreciated.

[Carmody]

And now the members individual task... is to keep careful control of themselves so they don't wear out the moderators out.

The big problem is that those who might contribute to such a situation of keeping one of the moderators up for 24 hours, won't come to this thread and deal with their own issues in 'lack of depth of view and/or understanding' of the issues. Then they will do the same -again.

in essence, the moderating team absorbed the blow of the ignorance and push of a 'group' of members. and the only way to equalize such situation is to absorb the blow and not return a shot.

which is....the more important part of how you raise a child. when the child flips out, your response has to center and emiss from a point that is as neutral as possible. for the child is learning the reach of their capacity to evoke emotional response and engages everyone and everything in that manner, while learning those limits, reach, and connections. then the intellect builds upon those patterns of integration and response.

Once one begins to understand that, I hope they begin to feel foolish (enough to create a memory of the moment that shifts their patterns of behavior from then on) when bringing that aspect to this forum, or any other part of their life.

What I'm saying is that such blow-ups are wearing out the moderation team, for no other reason... than a deep misunderstanding.... that is fully and deeply attached ...to unrealized components of emotional drive... that reside deep within what many feel is logical discourse.

That their entire capacity for logical discourse is deeply colored by the underpinnings of emotions and their development as a duality being. logical or not, every thought you have is powerfully colored/shifted by your body, which is an emotional instinctual drive system.

So..what one may THINK is logical discourse is actually YOUR ASS, disguised as logical discourse.

Otherwise, you'd never argue.

Do you understand?

Please understand that I am not separating myself from this point.

I try hard to understand this and be aware of it, at all times. If one is not, then it is going to be pretty darned hard to advance in this life..isn't it?

if you want the thing we are missing, find the break point in yourself that is the egoic shift/drive avatar/incarnation/body system for your thoughts and presence, and defeat it. But gently, you can't fight it. At that point, you can emerge fully into the now,and into your personal power.

It will hurt, as if you are killing your best friend that resides deep inside you,but really, all you are doing is establishing who is in charge and what self control and logic must center and flow from. Emotion is an added color and flavor on top, at that point, but it is then.. clearly not in charge.

[13th Warrior]

To look back and reflect on the situation...

Ultimately a person was banned because they liked to use a certain word...

Was it worth the dust up?

Was more lawlessness and disorder created by trying to apply more law and order?

Important decisions should be made carefully and this takes time to think and reflect upon the appropriate action.

As Tree Beard would say "Don't be hasty young Hobbit"...

Many people get angry when first confronted and some will act irrationally until...they have had time to think and cool down...some times you have to leave a barking, foaming at the mouth dog alone for a spell before you can leash and control him; afterwards, that rabid dog is still your friend and companion.

If you want quality over quantity in regards to the information presented on this forum and you as a Moderator would prefer not to have to baby site the population; then you are going to need high functioning, intelligent, wise and experienced members from very diverse backgrounds. This means you will have to be able to handle a wide range of personalities; learn to identify these people and their personality will help you govern with less conflict.

[Ultima Thule]

Regarding what Carmody said, I could not resist the urge to sketch this one up, as this really would be the book I would like to see #1 in Amazon. 11700 We are truly a compilation of shall we say heavenly emotions and I think we carry a mandate from unity, combined with chunk of 3D that also has emotions and intellectual capacity. We are truly between heaven and earth. Our task is mixing them in right proportions to make this compilation that is called a human being work.

Juha

Sorry about the derailing.. I just feel what Carmody said being spot on in so many levels, making us all a forum of logics discussing behinds, which is so very human and Carmody captivated something quite essential in this upcoming book of his :p
And I also wish to emphasize to Carmody that I was humbled with your input and I in no way at all wan´t to undermine the importance with this sketch and will remove it if felt so

[Mike]

up until about 3 days ago i was literally nowhere even near a computer for about 4 weeks, and when i commented on this thread last night i'd only skimmed the various posts and had no idea that this was all about Rob and his infamous 'nugget-speak'.

Lord Sid, mired in controversy??? what a shocker!;)

i think i have an idea for a truce: Sid can 'nugget' himself to death if he so well pleases, just so long as he spares us all his painfully unfunny 'carrot' material. Waddya'll think? a poll, perhaps? (i jest! i jest!)

i've disagreed w/Sid many times but there's no denying his wide range of knowledge and his weird star power. to me he is the ultimate enigma - wonderfully insightful and spot on one moment and completely nonsensical the next. but let me say this: nobody makes less sense with more conviction than Lord Sid!:) by heaven or hell, he is going to remain steadfastly and stubbornly ambiguous and vague - for hours or even days - when it comes to making one of his muddled points that no one really understands but nevertheless still continues to follow. (why? see: weird star power) i mean, who else but Sid could pull that off? lol!

i playfully rib Rob here but truthfully i enjoy having him around. i've told him so. hopefully we can amicably resolve 'nugget-gate' and bring the ol' bugger back asap. i have to admit that the place seems empty without him.

[KosmicKat]

How would you have me act to help keeping this place positive, respectful and informative? Just "let it be" or "take break" or "back off" (and other suggestions I've received)? Would not that mean the disruptive agents have won? When this forum will have tons of non-sense, virtually no visits, will then everybody be happy? Is me not caring anymore, the answer to my dilemma?

To me, the fact that you can ask the question says you are doing the best you can. Because you are doing fine (IMO) don't get complacent, but don't let yourself get wound up about doing better; continuing development takes exercise, perseverance and time.

[13th Warrior]

i've disagreed w/Sid many times but there's no denying his wide range of knowledge and his weird star power. to me he is the ultimate enigma - wonderfully insightful and spot on one moment and completely nonsensical the next. but let me say this: nobody makes less sense with more conviction than Lord Sid! by heaven or hell, he is going to remain steadfastly and stubbornly ambiguous and vague - for hours or even days - when it comes to making one of his muddled points that no one really understands but nevertheless still continues to follow. (why? see: weird star power) i mean, who else but Sid could pull that off? lol!

As Wyat Erp would say about Doc Holiday; "that's just his style, he don't mean anything by it"

LS want's people to come to the answer by their own means; he doesn't like to come straight out an tell you...it's just his way of teaching.

There you've done it "Nugget Gate" that's going to stick....8^)

[Mark]

i playfully rib Rob here but truthfully i enjoy having him around. i've told him so. hopefully we can amicably resolve 'nugget-gate' and bring the ol' bugger back asap. i have to admit that the place seems empty without him.

if rob does not return then this forum will have lost more than the entire nugget-gate episode was worth. imho. it is difficult when moderators have to deal with personalities who do indeed possess a certain 'star-power' as someone said, who have been around a long time and who are controversial. in the end, it comes down to their contribution. do they bring more than they take? do they help more than they hurt? is their heart warmer than it is cold. to me, that is the judge of someone's worth, i guess it can be put in terms of service-to-self and service-to-others. the intention. LS's honesty about who he is and what he is about have led me firmly to the belief that his presence is a boon, rather than a detriment.

[Rantaak]

I've always thought that the more reasons one can find to become "offended", the less spiritually, mentally, and emotionally evolved one tends to be. This community proclaims to be one of holistic and serene cognition, though I certainly see a lot of people out there who are literally attacking each other with love and light, always looking for a devil or looking for a fight. I do not believe in constraining the extent to which one is allowed to articulate their sentiments. To do so is violent, and of fascist theocracy. If I were running a forum, I would make people aware of this philosophy and stay entirely at their level of authority. We are all part of the same family after all. I am not, however, running this forum and I am aware that it is difficult to draw the line between forum janitorial service and draconic thought-policing.

[Old Snake]

Good,

Thanks for bringing this up,
The last months when goin over our forum it looks like I am looking @ a mix from Rense,before it`s, and some other info sources,
the items I get to see are just blind reposts of these sites.
I cannot agree with that,when you do that, have your own comment @ least, and better research that article first before
reposting @ our forum, with even a bettercoment/or questions.
This stance may even keep out a lot of unneccesary posts and save us from reading crap
And may well get a legimit discussion going on something worthwile, @least something that was thought on....................
It`s not a strong filter, yet it could work.

Kind regards &thanks for the work yeh do......................

Old Snake

[TargeT]

I'm sure you can find him over at atticus1 right now.. seems that forum gets a lot of "temp banned from avalon" traffic

[jagman]

Clear, Concise and to the Point is what I was always told, So I will get to mine. The PA forum NEEDS some kind of grievance process!
Project Avalon is truly a wonderful place and the Mods In my humble opinion do a great job here! The World is changing so fast and
it seems Project Avalon is experiencing Birth Pangs.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

First, a rider: I've been absent for a week or two (please see my post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34628-Richard-Anderson-s-ARISE-AND-SHINE-detox-cleanse&p=370128&viewfull=1#post370128)).


Clear, Concise and to the Point is what I was always told

Exactly. :)


Project Avalon is truly a wonderful place and the Mods In my humble opinion do a great job here!

I completely agree. I fully support Ilie, Paul, and all the mods in everything they do. They do a fantastic job which I deeply appreciate. The result is the quality of this forum.

Minor grievances concerning immature behavior should be easily sorted out. If they cannot be, then members can always post on GLP [Godlike Productions] and express themselves in absolutely any way they wish.

:)

[vibrations]

-------


I fully support Ilie, Paul, and all the mods in everything they do.



Naturally, wouldn't be a bit odd if you as their boss wouldn't support them.
Off course they are just Homo Sapiens as we all, and making mistakes is learning from them. And now when you mentioned immature behavior, yes, I remember, they behave immature a bit. And me also. But I am not a mod.

[phimonic]

i think as mod you might come into situations where you think that you have to judge certain things - and at this points problems may arise since we are all individuals and things get personal- in this forum more excentric individuals for sure, with 360 degree spectrum of different kind of interests and backgrounds.
but i believe that probably all members are people who care . care about problems and alternative solutions.

so some people here find it weird when someone like lord sid is banned because of a "system" or ruleset.
sure, he may seem a bit rough sometimes. - tbh i myself was confused at beginning how he meant certain things - also that nugget-word, but finally i got more the impression him being a bit like a terrifying looking dog, that truly is nice and watches over the children, although he might bark sometimes.

but ask many - will get many opinions probably - but in the end it depends all on the point of view - so who be the judge??? - if mods weren't the "watchers" and the "judges" at once - it would take tremendous pressure away from mods in such situations, i believe.

and why not having members-only or involved people-only threads to sort things out and solve problems open and transparent , so mods report stuff etc. and ban people for couple of hours - it is all totally ok as is, but at certain measurements the problem should be made clear and given to someone else to decide - someone objective - best not a single person - a "trilateral commision" :D

all i want to say that measurements against users should never be made out of emotional reasons or personal belief.
and sometimes it'll be hard to tell, - it's then enough when only a few are only "suspicious" it was "abuse of power" to burn bridges. and suddenly mods may appear like prison-guards.
this caused people to not post certain things because of fear - fear to get banned weird kind of ^^

the only things i found it important to intervene were, to keep the site "legal" and to calm down, when users don't handle a "troublemaker" themselves.

i had experience once where a thread was like totally cut IMO unnecessarily and i'd like to see emotional threads or discussions in threads - it's very interesting how people react to certain things and handle them.
i mean why avoid confrontation?
we should be eager as community for having such - to kill it with niceness. (:
so if this forum should be something like a community, well than it will also need to accept some black sheep within, imo.
so go for the wolves but let the lord-black-sheep back in! - NOW! or :banplease:

[vibrations]

i think as mod you might come into situations where you think that you have to judge certain things - and at this points problems may arise since we are all individuals and things get personal- in this forum more excentric individuals for sure, with 360 degree spectrum of different kind of interests and backgrounds.
but i believe that probably all members are people who care . care about problems and alternative solutions.

so some people here find it weird when someone like lord sid is banned because of a "system" or ruleset.
sure, he may seem a bit rough sometimes. - tbh i myself was confused at beginning how he meant certain things - also that nugget-word, but finally i got more the impression him being a bit like a terrifying looking dog, that truly is nice and watches over the children, although he might bark sometimes.

but ask many - will get many opinions probably - but in the end it depends all on the point of view - so who be the judge??? - if mods weren't the "watchers" and the "judges" at once - it would take tremendous pressure away from mods in such situations, i believe.

and why not having members-only or involved people-only threads to sort things out and solve problems open and transparent , so mods report stuff etc. and ban people for couple of hours - it is all totally ok as is, but at certain measurements the problem should be made clear and given to someone else to decide - someone objective - best not a single person - a "trilateral commision" :D

all i want to say that measurements against users should never be made out of emotional reasons or personal belief.
and sometimes it'll be hard to tell, - it's then enough when only a few are only "suspicious" it was "abuse of power" to burn bridges. and suddenly mods may appear like prison-guards.
this caused people to not post certain things because of fear - fear to get banned weird kind of ^^

the only things i found it important to intervene were, to keep the site "legal" and to calm down, when users don't handle a "troublemaker" themselves.

i had experience once where a thread was like totally cut IMO unnecessarily and i'd like to see emotional threads or discussions in threads - it's very interesting how people react to certain things and handle them.
i mean why avoid confrontation?
we should be eager as community for having such - to kill it with niceness. (:
so if this forum should be something like a community, well than it will also need to accept some black sheep within, imo.
so go for the wolves but let the lord-black-sheep back in! - NOW! or :banplease:

I support your opinion in many points. We are all just human everybody with his own background, believe system and all this crap. So everybody reacts in a different way. And mods are not an exception. Jacko write very well about their "hats on" and "hats off" condition, which is also normal because of their status and their responsibility. But I don't believe they will be so morally high to reverse the Rob's condition. It would be against what they decided and would also mean they grow up in front of their spiritual condition and in front of us. And that is very hard to believe for them. It's an old trap of any authority which puts you in a situation where you have to decide between stupid earthling "obligations" and between what your heart is saying.

[aranuk]

Sounds to me Bill you are having a hellava time with this detox thing you're on. Lot's of problems eh? I hope you get over it all. Let's pray for you.

Stan

[Orph]

You are wrong. I am right.

[jagman]

-------

First, a rider: I've been absent for a week or two (please see my post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34628-Richard-Anderson-s-ARISE-AND-SHINE-detox-cleanse&p=370128&viewfull=1#post370128)).


Clear, Concise and to the Point is what I was always told

Exactly. :)


Project Avalon is truly a wonderful place and the Mods In my humble opinion do a great job here!

I completely agree. I fully support Ilie, Paul, and all the mods in everything they do. They do a fantastic job which I deeply appreciate. The result is the quality of this forum.

Minor grievances concerning immature behavior should be easily sorted out. If they cannot be, then members can always post on GLP [Godlike Productions] and express themselves in absolutely any way they wish.

:)

Good to hear from you Bill. I hope your enjoying the new place.I seen the pics and
it looks like a real paradise. Bill I have a good ability to sense when someone is upset with me. Bill, I meant no disrespect to you or your team of mods When
I suggested that there be a grievance process.

Bill, I have all the respect in the world for you! Bill you have given everyone here a
platform to speak their minds and exchange ideas. ( Priceless! )
By the way Bill When are you going to do a new interview? Remember im also a
fan

[Sidney]

Hello,

As a forum administrator, besides technical support, I also have mod duties.

A big part of the mod duties is protecting this forum. Why does this forum need protecting and who from?

Here is a list:

- trolls that look to trash specific threads that may upsetting to somebody out there

- make sure that conversation is respectful so that everyone has a fair chance to be heard and not bullied around

- make sure that no threats are made publicly or privately on forum members, keeping this a safe environment as possible

- prevent forum sliding and topic dilution (see here: http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/cointelpro-techniques-for-dilution-misdirection-and-control-of-an-internet-forum/question-2270035/)

- allowing the forum to grow and develop, but still keep it in line with what makes this forum a unique place and aligned with its mission

- protect the forum from those that want it destroyed by destroying its content and focus (see forum sliding and trolling), by chasing away members that want to learn or those that make valuable contributions (see bulling and making threats), and by posting a lot of dis-information and fake debates just to muddy the waters and make the truth that much harder to see

Ideally, all the above duties should be shared with all the forum members, but not everybody has the time to actively pursue those and I am not that naive as to think that we do not have our own trolls and disruptive agents on board. (One the best way for trolls and agents to cause trouble is to enlist help from members, while posing as saints and make life that much harder for everybody else). -- Due to the timing of this post I need to specify that I am not including Lord Sidious in the list of trolls or agents, (although I strongly believe that his "nuggets" and "carrots" are not always helpful) --

Also as moderator I have access to some tools (that some have chosen to call "powers") to help me with my mission stated above.

So my question to you is: how would you have me perform my duty without the forum members calling me:
- control freak
- big brother
- thought police
- free speech attacker
- suppressor
you get the picture...

How would you have me act to help keeping this place positive, respectful and informative? Just "let it be" or "take break" or "back off" (and other suggestions I've received)? Would not that mean the disruptive agents have won? When this forum will have tons of non-sense, virtually no visits, will then everybody be happy? Is me not caring anymore, the answer to my dilemma?

No-one should be name-calling. That is childish disrespectful behavior. The mods here have a huge responsibility, and due to statistics alone, there is no way possible to keep everybody happy. And with issues like the one we had this week, was a no win situation.
Members and mods alike make mistakes, especially when all of the facts are not there for everyone to see.
Truth usually prevails in the end. I think maybe the only thing I might ask of the mods, is that when there is a heated conflict, is try and make sure the facts are available when possible. I was an active participant in the most recent debate, although I would like to think I was not intentionally hurtful to anyone, I am humble enough to admit when I am wrong. I should have trusted the mods on this one. :sorry::hug:

[Anchor]

I think that Lord Sidious would make a good mod :).

LOL - I don't - no offence Mr Sidious :)

[mosquito]

Ilie and Paul, you do a great job.
Much as I love the idea of free speech, I recognize that this forum needs moderatiuon, and I believe it's a better place for it.
Yes there are decisions you make that I find puzzling, but so what ?

I think people also ought to exercise their own moderation - when I joined I vowed to never post while drinking alcohol. I haven't touched a drop for 72 days now, but I still refrain from posting when excesively tired or down right pissed-off. We have to remember that we're communicating across time zones, with people we've never met, who we can't see. Problems are bound to arise but we can mitigate the situation by exercising a little (un-)common sense when posting.

So thanks Ilie and Paul, you're doing a fantastic job !

[Mike]

I've always thought that the more reasons one can find to become "offended", the less spiritually, mentally, and emotionally evolved one tends to be. This community proclaims to be one of holistic and serene cognition, though I certainly see a lot of people out there who are literally attacking each other with love and light, always looking for a devil or looking for a fight. I do not believe in constraining the extent to which one is allowed to articulate their sentiments. To do so is violent, and of fascist theocracy. If I were running a forum, I would make people aware of this philosophy and stay entirely at their level of authority. We are all part of the same family after all. I am not, however, running this forum and I am aware that it is difficult to draw the line between forum janitorial service and draconic thought-policing.


great post. and so true.

in this poisonous politically correct environment, people are becoming methodically and unconsciously brainwashed into feeling "offended" or "outraged" by so n so's "comments". an apology is then demanded from so n so and he generally obliges, and an inevitable tour of contrition follows.

it's such an odd ritual. first off, i've never understood how anyone could gain any sort of satisfaction from a demanded apology. at best it would be hopelessly phony. i'm literally sitting here trying to manufacture the mind-set of someone who might "demand" an apology. ("well, he isn't really sorry, but i'll demand an apology and make him uncomfortable enough through my harassment to give me a phony, contrived admission of wrong-doing, and even though he won't really mean it in the least...") well, i'm stuck here. i just can't wring any logic out of it.

i can't even remember the last time i was "outraged" by comments. there are things/events/injustices in this world that might outrage me, but comments? never.

feeling constantly offended only weakens your connection to the universal field of intent, and reduces your ability to manifest success and abundance into your life (yes, i am a die-hard wayne dyer fan;)) it's a program, designed specifically by you-know-who with the intent to atrophy our spiritual muscles to the point of uselessness. one of their many tricks.

[Davidallany]

Greetings,

I have no question about Avalon's moderation. For the rules, it seems, are written in stone. And If the founder is happy with it, then there is nothing left to say really, that would be trolling.

Now off I go to sign disclosure petitions maybe it's possible to convince the rich and powerful to loosen their grip.

[learninglight]

Ok here goes

I'm a member of Atticus1, i dont post there i just read the threads as there is some intersting stuff there....

Well i just pooped on to have a look at a thread i having been following and got quite a shock!!

I'm posting the opening post by the op of a new thread ,and the reason i'm doing this is because imo it shows that the mods got it right on the way they handled the 'nugget' thread

Let me just state here and now that i like Rob, he has a great sense of humour and is a very knowledgerble (sorry for spelling) member, however this completely threw me
I know there will be those who will have a dig at me for posting this here as its on another forum, but come on guys, this is a bit much!!
O.K i've got my hard hat on and toe capped boots so here ya go


Greetings a/g/o/r/a/n/u/g/g/e/t/s.
As some of you know, I have a ''vacation'' from the project avalon forums.
Nice orwellian term.
Anyways, many people agree that the moderation team there needs to be changed.
So, this is the reason I refused to play the game with paul and ilie when they told me they were banning one particular word.
You lot can guess the word, doesn't take a seer to figure.
So, I thought, ok, let's try and achieve a few things in one go.
Let's try and show some of the people how to make a stand in the face of overbearing ''authority'' and thereby empower themselves.
And I wanted to highlight the misdeeds of paul, ilie and some others.
I knew they would ban me eventually and they did.
Paul abused me by PM and then put me on moderation while he went out to do chores.
They resorted to the same tactic they always do.
Ban first, slander after.
So, they lied about why I was banned and who did what.
There is a huge thread on their forum, since moved so that guests (or banned members) can't read it.
They have been shown to be liars and abusing their positions by banning people without valid cause.
So what does the general populace of the forum do?
Ignore or suck up.
And they wonder why there is this situation in the world where the system crunches the little guy.
You know why?
The little guy deserves it.
He is too cowardly or comfortable to actually make a stand.
The microcosm (avalon) resembles the macrocosm (world) for that reason.
Even on a forum, they watch and won't do anything.
So what do all the thanks a member receives actually amount to?
Not a lot, by the looks.
The last time I was banned, the same thing.
Ban, staff slander and lie.
Some of them ignore their own rules and post how they please and then threaten those who question.
So what is the point in lighting ourselves a nice little campfire, getting the marshmallows out and then talking about the issues if we don't intend to actually do anything?
Until people find their backbones and let go of their wishbones, this crap will just go on and on.
Funny thing is, paul and ilie rail against fascists in power, but don't realise they are the fascists.
So, when the avalon forums go down the drain and they will, the members will want to know why and whose fault it is.
And it is always the same answer.
Those who failed their tests.
Pathetic.

Lord Sidious, Yesterday at 5:23 AM Report

much love

Mod Edit: quote box added. No other changes made.

[TWINCANS]

Sorry but what are you so shocked at - that Rob spoke his Truth? For some time now he has indicated his frustration that folks will not pull their finger out and be the change.
Or that he spoke it on another forum? Well, he cannot post here now can he?

This sounds like someone who is not coming back imo. Shame.

[ulli]

This is all about the 99% versus the 1% Occupy Avalon movement.
I heard the Occupy Wall Street Movement itself is now experiencing it's own 99% versus 1% problem.

[ulli]

Sorry but what are you so shocked at - that Rob spoke his Truth? For some time now he has indicated his frustration that folks will not pull their finger out and be the change.
Or that he spoke it on another forum? Well, he cannot post here now can he?

This sounds like someone who is not coming back imo. Shame.


I have a feeling the stage is set for a Lord Sid Project Forum.
Surely there are people amongst his friends who can help him set one up.
The size of his following is now quite considerable and I for one would enjoy visiting that forum from time to time.
Whether it can be maintained as an unmoderated forum remains to be seen.
But life has a tendency to play the Irony game.

[Ilie Pandia]

Hello,

Sorry I did not reply sooner, it was time to visit the mountains again :)

I'm pleasantly surprised to read that many of you do actually understand where I am coming from, what I am about. Thank you for that. (And if that get's called "but kissing"... well, how do appreciate someones work then?)

To address some of the concerns:

- not replying to all the posts in a thread happens because either there is simply not enough time to keep up, the same questions may have been answered or the post is perceived as an attack or a provocation in which case a reply is not helpful.

- as we've said often, we always do give a fair warning before taking strong moderation action. But sometimes even just the warning is considered "too much!" and "too aggressive". But we cannot issue a warning of a warning.

- criticism of the moderation work. This does happen, and in my view is also important how you do it. I understand that is tough if you are on the receiving end of the moderation action.

- no moderation forum: that is easy: take a look at other non-moderated forum and try to actually find some useful information there, see how long it takes before you give up

[ktlight]

Hi Ilie
I posted a possible solution to this problem (on page 3) and wonder if moderators and Bill could please consider it. The solution would take the heat off moderators, bring in the support of the entire forum members, and comes into play only when moderator decisions spill over onto the forum.

[Ilie Pandia]

Yes Ktlight, we are looking at that too.

[Ultima Thule]

ktlight - I appreciate the idea, but am quite certain that it would be quite impossible to produce in a fair and functional way, polling would IMO end up in likely situation where those who care for and share history with person A, will vote against the mod action to be taken against him and they would easily be asked to do so, for support and perhaps the few who have a problem with person A, for example he/she/them being newcomers with no such support available for the vote - thus ending up in a situation where you can vote with numbers that kicking someone in stomach is acceptable and does not warrant mod action.

I can absolutely see your ideal of what you are aiming at, but am quite sure it wouldn´t work. Off course I am really interested in discussing what ways there would be to make such a thing work, as I am an eternal optimist and always willing to think about utopia!

However: at times I would have a few things we all could self-moderate with.
I have stated #1 earlier, about saying only things aloud that you don´t mind your mother hearing you say :p
#2 if you really really REALLY feel like you MUST say or do something controversial immediately, it is usually best to wait for a few days.
#3 We all have only A truth and many or most times in our lives we mistake it for THE truth, and when that happens, the you-know-what is about the hit the supporter of a band.

Juha

[onawah]

Hi Chinaski, Nice to see you back on the Forum. I missed you.
You summed it up very well:

nobody makes less sense with more conviction than Lord Sid! by heaven or hell, he is going to remain steadfastly and stubbornly ambiguous and vague - for hours or even days - when it comes to making one of his muddled points that no one really understands but nevertheless still continues to follow. (why? see: weird star power) i mean, who else but Sid could pull that off? lol!

I can't say that I haven't been annoyed by Sid at times, or that I always agreed with him, or even that I was a big fan of his.
Mostly because I'm one who has come here to PA more for information than for socializing.
But eventually I became fond of his unique, persistent goofiness.
I actually went out of my way to avoid being called a nugget by him for the longest time, by never interacting with him directly on the threads, although he kind of shamed me by thanking me just about every time I posted anything, almost immediately after I posted.
It was a bit uncanny :spy: and I could never figure out how he managed it! :twitch:
I wondered why he was doing that, but I never asked him, and I wish I had now.
I think he was just waiting for an opportunity to nugget me, :caked:and he knew he would get it eventually if he kept doing that.
Possibly he kept thanking me because he thought I was going to put him on my ignore list otherwise as I have a few other people who consistently annoyed me before he got a chance to nugget me (I actually considered that early on, but he ceased to annoy me before too long, so I refrained.)
He finally took his opportunity to call me a nugget but he did it in a nice way. :peace:
He did it in a PM while complimenting me on my new Avatar.
So I just thanked him and congratulated him on finally getting his opportunity to nugget me. :o :lol:

I hope we will not just be reduced to reminiscing about Sid, but I can understand too why the Mods are probably quite relieved to get a break from him for a week, at least, and I think they deserve a break after all this s--tstorm from the members.
But I hope he comes back.

I also hope we can find a way here to contain these conflagrations a bit better when they break out, which they do from time to time.
I think it would be better to put it where guests are not able to see it, as I imagine it detracts from the main reason that guests probably come here.
Which is to find information they may not be able to find elsewhere without a lot of other distractions.
I think that is the main reason why PA was established, and it's a good one, IMHO.


up until about 3 days ago i was literally nowhere even near a computer for about 4 weeks, and when i commented on this thread last night I'd only skimmed the various posts and had no idea that this was all about Rob and his infamous 'nugget-speak'.

Lord Sid, mired in controversy??? what a shocker!;)

i think i have an idea for a truce: Sid can 'nugget' himself to death if he so well pleases, just so long as he spares us all his painfully unfunny 'carrot' material. Waddya'll think? a poll, perhaps? (i jest! i jest!)

i've disagreed w/Sid many times but there's no denying his wide range of knowledge and his weird star power. to me he is the ultimate enigma - wonderfully insightful and spot on one moment and completely nonsensical the next. but let me say this: nobody makes less sense with more conviction than Lord Sid!:) by heaven or hell, he is going to remain steadfastly and stubbornly ambiguous and vague - for hours or even days - when it comes to making one of his muddled points that no one really understands but nevertheless still continues to follow. (why? see: weird star power) i mean, who else but Sid could pull that off? lol!

i playfully rib Rob here but truthfully i enjoy having him around. i've told him so. hopefully we can amicably resolve 'nugget-gate' and bring the ol' bugger back asap. i have to admit that the place seems empty without him.

[KosmicKat]

I have to admit I was blissfully unaware that there was any controversy involving Lord Sidious.

My support remains with the moderation team. If that should change I would have no business being here.

It seems to me that online forums are like eddies in the great stream that is the internet. We get drawn in and spun around for a bit and at some point the flow in our immediate vicinity changes and we are carried elsewhere.

[Elixer]

Yes, great job, you guys. I appreciate the work you do to keep this a well functioning forum.

One issue I find though, comes when mods post as normal users, members, thread contributors and they take up positions on topics.
This wouldn't be a problem, but disagreement with their 'member' posts can lead to moderator actions, especially when the topic concerns Avalon.
It's a lot to ask of them or any of us, to maintain objectivity in those situations.
Also there is the butt-kissing aspect. The mods' 'member' post might get more respect due to the fact that they are mods....
I imagine it's quite difficult for them to navigate between these roles.

As a solution for this, maybe it is possible for the admins to have two accounts they can post under. One for the Moderator work and one for their member contributions.
That way there can be no confusion about whom you are addressing when responding to their posts and in what capacity they address the other members.
I'm sure it's been suggested before and there might be practical issues with it, but I think this could work.

This could already be happening and we just don't know it, because the different accounts are under different names.
But then we wouldn't see the mods posting as normal members, yet we do.... and I value most of those contributions too, btw.

[Corncrake]

I know this thread is not about LS but regarding Ulli's insight above and LL's post, that would would be one way out of this. I come to PA for information and because it is good to be amongst generally like minded people. I have enormous respect for the moderators and try to moderate myself before posting though not always that successfully. There have been some really volatile threads in the past such as 'Wormtongue' and the Atticus ones and although sometimes I have wanted to jump into the fray I have managed to resist and not add fuel to the fire. Some interesting people have left because they don't like the 'rules' but others always come along ... the forum is constantly evolving.

[ktlight]

ktlight - I appreciate the idea, but am quite certain that it would be quite impossible to produce in a fair and functional way, polling would IMO end up in likely situation where those who care for and share history with person A, will vote against the mod action to be taken against him and they would easily be asked to do so, for support and perhaps the few who have a problem with person A, for example he/she/them being newcomers with no such support available for the vote - thus ending up in a situation where you can vote with numbers that kicking someone in stomach is acceptable and does not warrant mod action.

I can absolutely see your ideal of what you are aiming at, but am quite sure it wouldn´t work. Off course I am really interested in discussing what ways there would be to make such a thing work, as I am an eternal optimist and always willing to think about utopia!

However: at times I would have a few things we all could self-moderate with.
I have stated #1 earlier, about saying only things aloud that you don´t mind your mother hearing you say :p
#2 if you really really REALLY feel like you MUST say or do something controversial immediately, it is usually best to wait for a few days.
#3 We all have only A truth and many or most times in our lives we mistake it for THE truth, and when that happens, the you-know-what is about the hit the supporter of a band.

Juha

Would the moderators be willing to put this to a test? I trust members to be adult about issues. It would be important for moderators to understand that this would in no way undermine them. Otherwise, your decision stated above amounts to prejudgment,.

[Bill Ryan]

Ok here goes

I'm a member of Atticus1, i dont post there i just read the threads as there is some intersting stuff there....

Well i just pooped on to have a look at a thread i having been following and got quite a shock!!

I'm posting the opening post by the op of a new thread ,and the reason i'm doing this is because imo it shows that the mods got it right on the way they handled the 'nugget' thread

Let me just state here and now that i like Rob, he has a great sense of humour and is a very knowledgerble (sorry for spelling) member, however this completely threw me
I know there will be those who will have a dig at me for posting this here as its on another forum, but come on guys, this is a bit much!!
O.K i've got my hard hat on and toe capped boots so here ya go


Greetings a/g/o/r/a/n/u/g/g/e/t/s.
As some of you know, I have a ''vacation'' from the project avalon forums.
Nice orwellian term.
Anyways, many people agree that the moderation team there needs to be changed.
So, this is the reason I refused to play the game with paul and ilie when they told me they were banning one particular word.
You lot can guess the word, doesn't take a seer to figure.
So, I thought, ok, let's try and achieve a few things in one go.
Let's try and show some of the people how to make a stand in the face of overbearing ''authority'' and thereby empower themselves.
And I wanted to highlight the misdeeds of paul, ilie and some others.
I knew they would ban me eventually and they did.
Paul abused me by PM and then put me on moderation while he went out to do chores.
They resorted to the same tactic they always do.
Ban first, slander after.
So, they lied about why I was banned and who did what.
There is a huge thread on their forum, since moved so that guests (or banned members) can't read it.
They have been shown to be liars and abusing their positions by banning people without valid cause.
So what does the general populace of the forum do?
Ignore or suck up.
And they wonder why there is this situation in the world where the system crunches the little guy.
You know why?
The little guy deserves it.
He is too cowardly or comfortable to actually make a stand.
The microcosm (avalon) resembles the macrocosm (world) for that reason.
Even on a forum, they watch and won't do anything.
So what do all the thanks a member receives actually amount to?
Not a lot, by the looks.
The last time I was banned, the same thing.
Ban, staff slander and lie.
Some of them ignore their own rules and post how they please and then threaten those who question.
So what is the point in lighting ourselves a nice little campfire, getting the marshmallows out and then talking about the issues if we don't intend to actually do anything?
Until people find their backbones and let go of their wishbones, this crap will just go on and on.
Funny thing is, paul and ilie rail against fascists in power, but don't realise they are the fascists.
So, when the avalon forums go down the drain and they will, the members will want to know why and whose fault it is.
And it is always the same answer.
Those who failed their tests.
Pathetic.

Lord Sidious, Yesterday at 5:23 AM Reportmuch loveHi, All:

I'm going to take some heat off the mods here.

I just wrote to them saying the following -- very slightly edited for public view:




I presume you have by now all read this:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post370393 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35969-Question-about-forum-moderation&p=370393&viewfull=1#post370393)

My vote (not a diktat -- this is totally your call): get him outta here.

The guy is arrogant, egocentric, grandstanding, hotheaded, and his strength -- his passionate determination to make a point -- when overplayed, as it often is, becomes a huge weakness. It's his karma to handle that, and not Avalon's responsibility.

For those who've not read my PM to Rob, I sent it yesterday and copied it to all the mods. Do please read. It expresses personal views I've quietly held for quite a while.

I 100% support you all in your every call. This is the best forum on the internet, widely acknowledged as such, entirely by your own actions, commitment, and endless hard work. Always trust your inner guidance and don't be swayed by public opinion if this appears to be different.I'm now tempted to close the thread -- but this should also be the call of the other mods.

The forum is always bigger (and better) than any one flawed human being. Everyone is loved and respected by me -- all living creatures are, in fact, without exception -- but sometimes, like the living beings I find in my bedroom that for the moment best belong elsewhere, they may need to thrive and pursue their goals in a different location for the time being.

My warmest regards to all -- Bill

[ktlight]

The best closure that could be is true transparency.

[gigha]

This i think is all part of the change that is taking place in every aspect of life.
Ask what do I know today that I did not know a year ago. :)

[jackovesk]

I'm going to take some heat off the mods here.

I just wrote to them saying the following -- very slightly edited for public view:




I presume you have by now all read this:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post370393 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35969-Question-about-forum-moderation&p=370393&viewfull=1#post370393)

I 100% support you all in your every call. This is the best forum on the internet, widely acknowledged as such, entirely by your own actions, commitment, and endless hard work. Always trust your inner guidance and don't be swayed by public opinion if this appears to be different.

My warmest regards to all -- Bill

Hi Bill,

What really concerns me along with I'm sure some other Members is this...


widely acknowledged as such, entirely by your own actions, commitment, and endless hard work. and don't be swayed by public opinion if this appears to be different.

Is what you are saying, that Project Avalon is the best forum on the internet entirely due to the Moderators?

Please Clarify...

[ktlight]

Bill.
Can you please confirm that you read both sides' PMs?

Regarding your PM to Rob, what do you mean that you have not had any correspondence with the mods about this? How then did the matter come to your attention?

[Bill Ryan]

Bill.
Can you please confirm that you read both sides' PMs?

Regarding your PM to Rob, what do you mean that you have not had any correspondence with the mods about this? How then did the matter come to your attention?

Rob openly copied several of his PMs to the mods to me. I read them yesterday. That was the first I heard of any problem or issue.

[ktlight]

Bill.
Can you please confirm that you read both sides' PMs?

Regarding your PM to Rob, what do you mean that you have not had any correspondence with the mods about this? How then did the matter come to your attention?

Rob openly copied several of his PMs to the mods to me. I read them yesterday. That was the first I heard of any problem or issue.

Thank you, Bill.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

How would you have me act to help keeping this place positive, respectful and informative? Just "let it be" or "take break" or "back off" (and other suggestions I've received)? Would not that mean the disruptive agents have won? When this forum will have tons of non-sense, virtually no visits, will then everybody be happy? Is me not caring anymore, the answer to my dilemma?

Hi Ilie,

I am responding to the OP and have not read the rest of this thread.

I am a professional online community manager with fifteen years experience. I have had no complaints with the actions of the mod team.

The mod team has laid out the boundaries as best they can while trying to leave themselves enough flexibility to keep people from using the "rules" against them to hamstring their efforts. Rules and guidelines do not replace common sense and the application of intelligence.

The problem as I see it has not been with you. The problem has been an unwillingness of many forum members to accept the boundaries that are established. They have their own personal vision of what Avalon should be and how mods should act and are not willing to let go of that. I have suspected that people wanting to disrupt the forum and cause Avalon to waste its time chasing its own tail have used this fact as leverage to do so.

The solution? Avalonians need to ask themselves before they post if they are adding to the discussion, acting out of narcissism, just like to hear themselves talk, or just throwing a tantrum (I still say I will eventually get caught throwing a tantrum, ha). If we each take responsibility for managing our own energy and reactivity, then it will be very hard to derail discussions.

I could go on with analysis, but I will leave it at that. I support your efforts and work. I have never asked to be a mod because I am too selfish with my time, so thank you for donating yours. Please pay no notice to that crowd with the torches and pitchforks.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

One of the things I sometimes say to a community I am moderating is "This is a moderated forum. If you would like an unmoderated forum, please have a look at wordpress or blogspot. You can make any kind of forum you like". Some people find this offensive, but it's just a simple fact. Just thought I would throw that in.

[vibrations]

How would you have me act to help keeping this place positive, respectful and informative? Just "let it be" or "take break" or "back off" (and other suggestions I've received)? Would not that mean the disruptive agents have won? When this forum will have tons of non-sense, virtually no visits, will then everybody be happy? Is me not caring anymore, the answer to my dilemma?

dear Ilie

Or you didn't get it or you don't want to see it. It's not the matter of moderation or not, off course it's necessary, it's the matter how.

In the 90% of time you, moderators are doing clean, nice job, and off course nobody is complaining. complains comes when personal feelings interfere with a mod work. This is what I saw in this case. Overheated blood.

And it's absolutely human, and everybody would understand it if any of you would with one word say,"maybe we did it wrong". And it's very human and all of us would understand and everything ok. But the way how it was done, lowers the level of respect and connectivity between all of us. And that is what is not good for entire forum.

[ThePythonicCow]

I am now closing this thread for a little bit, while I do a little rearranging.

I'll post again here when I'm finished - thanks for your patience.

[ThePythonicCow]

I have moved some posts to a separate thread The Lord Sidious controversy (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36092-The-Lord-Sidious-controversy).

Please use this thread to discuss Ilie's original topic, "forum moderation".

Please use the The Lord Sidious controversy (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36092-The-Lord-Sidious-controversy) thread to continue the discussion over Lord Sidious.

Thank-you.

[John Parslow]

Hello Paul


I have moved some posts to a separate thread The Lord Sidious controversy.

Please use this thread to discuss Ilie's original topic, "forum moderation".

Please use the The Lord Sidious controversy thread to continue the discussion over Lord Sidious.

Thank-you.

Did you remove any posts - we seem to be some missing. JP

[Snowbird]

I have to support Bill here because what he has said IMO is correct. I state this from the stance of an active observer. I don't want to point fingers at a particular poster current or otherwise. But what I have noticed over time is a few very strong personalities appear to have a desire to become a type of lead or headship over others. It is a control issue and the use of cute slang words or phrases repeated continuously, minus definition, appears to be an attempt to corral and confine.

I'm going against the grain here because I am viewing this issue as if standing in the midst of both/each the macrocosm and the microcosm. We are experiencing huge ongoing change in both and this change will continue until its grand completion. There are separations occurring without judgment, as each person's value is equal but totally different.

I have accepted the type of moderating on this forum. I have never offered to volunteer to help because I spend most of my valued free time researching multiple issues and learning to improve. Moderating on this particular forum assessing the deep and sometimes dark subjects that are discussed, requires someone who possesses great balance in heart and mind. I believe that this balanced team is in place.

[vibrations]

It's not mine but it's very good.
If I have learned anything this past week it is how true The Dangers of Thinking too much thread has come to light of all that has gone on, let me explain. When we express our emotions that is all we are simply doing, “EXPRESSING” emotions do not need justification or acceptance it is simply to convey feeling. When we are in the attitude of “EXPRESSING” our ideas then it becomes a way to justify what we think and then to either have it validated or not by a panel of our peers. Thinking includes EGO, feeling includes self. To get past hurt ego’s and being offended you need to feel your way through the issues and say that I either feel it to be true or not and then move on!

[ThePythonicCow]

Did you remove any posts - we seem to be some missing. JP
Unless I made some error (that I have not noticed, and can reverse if happened), I did not remove any posts - every post is either on this thread or on the new The Lord Sidious controversy (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36092-The-Lord-Sidious-controversy) thread.

[ViralSpiral]

Did you remove any posts - we seem to be some missing. JP
Unless I made some error (that I have not noticed, and can reverse if happened), I did not remove any posts - every post is either on this thread or on the new The Lord Sidious controversy (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36092-The-Lord-Sidious-controversy) thread.


:)

In fairness, some posts, still here, could be moved too. If this is not about Sid, then LearnignLight's as well as Bill's, could too . After which, this too can travel into Neverland....

[airaspect]

Mods won’t be able to do their job if each of their decision will become subject to members voting, Ktlight. Transparency as in explaining banning reasons is a nice idea though. Making PM’s public is a bit too far imho as it is a violation of privacy really - they are private messages, hence the name. Pity since it would be a very interesting lecture.

Paul and Ilie always try to explain in a clear and logical manner what the situations is, what’s their view on it and what thinking process led to their conclusions/decisions. Even if You don’t agree with some of the decisions made, You have to appreciate that. Overall great job guys.

Vibrations, maybe this is where You and few others that posted in this thread should say “maybe we were overreacting’, deal with it, and move on, there are other problems that need attention.

Rantaak, would You agree that one mentally and emotionally evolved should not take offense at mods banning one of the words he uses ? Especially if it makes the less evolved feel offended ?

[ThePythonicCow]

In fairness, some posts, still here, could be moved too. If this is not about Sid, then LearnignLight's as well as Bill's, could too . After which, this too can travel into Neverland....

They could ... I felt that the Lord Sidious specific parts I left on this thread reached a bit of closure, with Bill's comment above:
I'm now tempted to close the thread -- but this should also be the call of the other mods.

I realize that others don't see that as closure so much as an opening. Such it is.

[TWINCANS]

This is all about the 99% versus the 1% Occupy Avalon movement.
I heard the Occupy Wall Street Movement itself is now experiencing it's own 99% versus 1% problem.

It is not a prerequisite to be included a person's 'group' to be prepared to discuss an issue that might involve one person. To continually describe conflict as simply a faction issue diminutizes each member as an individual and has having one's own opinion. It oversimplifies. It is not likely to arrive at a conclusion that retores cohesion because it is a gang up mentality. To simplify is to look simple. Life is way more complex, as we Avalonians know.

[vibrations]

Vibrations, maybe this is where You and few others that posted in this thread should say “maybe we were overreacting’, deal with it, and move on, there are other problems that need attention.



You see, dear Polish friend, the situation which is so similar what we are living in every day's life is for me important to solve. In a outer world nothing functions. Government, health, justice, everything is a bunch of personal interests based on some promised power or better future.

So for me is quite important to try to establish some kind of fluid communication between the both sides. Until now, I had no success. But I rely on the force of the positive feelings in the hearts and I hope something will change. And I think, it's worth try it.

If you think I am boring just avoid to read my post. Many others do the same.

[Unified Serenity]

You couldn't pay me to be a mod here. I am a moderator on a women's poetry and conversation forum, and it's like herding cats. I watched two very disruptive members nearly destroy the forum because the owner would not back up the mods who wanted to stop a train wreck before it happened, but the owner kept playing the "everyone should have their say" card. In the end, great women left and the site has gone downhill. I am not saying LS is a train wreck or an intentional trouble maker. I am speaking of moderating a forum in general. People take offense too easily, some are trolls, some are triggered by certain words and take offense and others scratch their heads not understanding. It's babysitting, counseling, and all in all a lot of work with little thanks.

All in all I think the mods do a fairly good job. I would not participate on a non-moderated forum because the trolls would ruin it. New members need to understand we want to hear from them, that we care about people here, and some of us are a little less thoughtful in responses, but are certainly not out to hurt people.

[Mike]

if a forum truly is the microcosm of the macrocosm, as a few posters have pointed out, then i see the mods more as a benevolent police force than some form of repressive government. it's an unequivocally required service. you won't always like the decisions, but that's life in the big city.

think you can do better? then go ahead and volunteer your time and energy and expertise. and good luck.

every so often here we have the wanna-be forum-hero trumpeting against perceived injustice, rallying the fist shaking troops against the big-bad-oppressive-fascist moderators. and it always ends the same way, with cyber-Gandhi playing martyr for the 'cause', and eventually moving on to a rival forum to garner support for something that really shouldn't be too terribly important to a grown adult.

it's just about the tackiest f$cking thing one can do. and it's just plain embarrassing. let's clear this up too: there's nothing 'courageous' about making 'against the grain comments' on an ANONYMOUS internet forum. if making an alleged bold statement on Avalon qualifies for bravery, then ordering a burger at a fast-food drive-thru is downright heroic.

folks, this is a forum. if anyone is really that apoplectic over a dismissed or vacationed member, i suggest you reevaluate your priorities. drink a beer. make love to your spouse. douse yourself with cold water. whatever.

[ktlight]

Mods won’t be able to do their job if each of their decision will become subject to members voting, Ktlight.

airrespect, I was referring ONLY to the situations where moderator decisions overflow onto the forum. Otherwise, we know nothing about them. I think it would be good to have a buffer for mods and members.

[DeDukshyn]

Here's a tactic I see in all of this to give a different perspective ...

Instigator creates small problem in the moderators job as they see it, small problem "asked" to be addressed.
small problem "address request" is upgraded by the instigator and is turned into a "word banning" issue - rather than the request issue which it was.
Many on the forum now believe that it is actually is a "word banning" issue because of either where they picked up the story or blind support for said instigator - the truth is the first casualty of war.
They story begins to get further twisted by the instigator and his blind supporters, and after a while people start discussing all kinds of nasty things that none of this issue is about; this continues to grow into a **** flinging contest, with names and insults; Offending members now get deserved vacations and the instigator blames the initial moderators action to inflame the crowds, and pretty soon we have "people being banned because of the use of a word" -- which is a great stretch from how this started and the original intention of the instigator. This is a very common tactic, but unfortunately is highly destructive for everyone involved. It is also a challenge for us to maintain our personal integrity while this is happening around us.

I know these tactics waaaay too well -- My ex uses these exact tactics for everything -- except instead of Avalon members for "supporters" she had my kids.

I'm not saying Lord Sid planned any of his big debates with the mods in this way, but there is no doubting the results -- this is what happens <DeDukshyn prepares noose for himself to save the coming lynch mob some work ;)>

[Unified Serenity]

Here's a tactic I see in all of this to give a different perspective ...

Instigator creates small problem in the moderators job as they see it, small problem "asked" to be addressed.
small problem "address request" is upgraded by the instigator and is turned into a "word banning" issue - rather than the request issue which it was.
Many on the forum now believe that it is actually is a "word banning" issue because of either where they picked up the story or blind support for said instigator - the truth is the first casualty of war.
They story begins to get further twisted by the instigator and his blind supporters, and after a while people start discussing all kinds of nasty things that none of this issue is about; this continues to grow into a **** flinging contest, with names and insults; Offending members now get deserved vacations and the instigator blames the initial moderators action to inflame the crowds, and pretty soon we have "people being banned because of the use of a word" -- which is a great stretch from how this started and the original intention of the instigator. This is a very common tactic, but unfortunately is highly destructive for everyone involved. It is also a challenge for us to maintain our personal integrity while this is happening around us.

I know these tactics waaaay too well -- My ex uses these exact tactics for everything -- except instead of Avalon members for "supporters" she had my kids.

I'm not saying Lord Sid planned any of his big debates with the mods in this way, but there is no doubting the results -- this is what happens <DeDukshyn prepares noose for himself to save the coming lynch mob some work ;)>

AMEN brother. Thank you, and thanks for showing who people can be led astray and sites suffer from it. Let us all step back, breath, and go forward. This is becoming a dead horse.

[ThePythonicCow]

This thread was closed for a couple hours, while we cleaned up a spill from the Lord Sidious controversy. A couple dozen posts were removed, and the posters notified in various ways.

The thread is reopened now, to continue the discussion of "Forum Moderation".

:) :cow: :)

[sunnyrap]

Uhm-hmm...I've read through this entire thread and can't figure out what L.Sid did to get him frosted out of this forum--did he call someone a 'nugget' one too many times? (I've yet to figure out what, in his personal dictionary 'nugget' means, even. In several contexts in which it is used, it sounds similar to 'dipstick', 'jackleg', 'dingleberry' or somesuch, and in others, as a left-handed term of endearment like 'pumpkin', 'meathead', 'goofball' or so-forth...in all cases kind of vaguely diminishing.) But, from my perspective, the terms folks use to categorize others ALWAYS says more about themselves than those they attempt to put handles on, so taking offense at them puts you in agreement with it, rather than otherwise. But surely there's more to this situation that that?

I've noticed LSid tends to put things in high-contrast language and is unafraid of sharing his unique perspective, let the chips fall where they may. I love tabbed browsing. When something someone says bugs me for either mature or immature reasons, I just mutter 'ack! under my breath, X out the tab with that thread on it and keep on chooglin'.

10 years of being on forums like this later, it rarely happens that flame-throwing DOESN'T occur. We can't see each other's eyes, flailing hands and body language or hear the intonations in each other's voices. Misunderstanding/misinterpretation is simply going to happen. Assigning attitude and emotions wrongly to bald, typed words is inevitable. I rarely bother to involve myself with altercations over it. Usually better to hold one's tongue than let it flap the breeze to fan unfortunate flames...

But I AM curious about what the core bone of contention was, here, if anyone cares to give me the Readers Digest Condensed version?

[modwiz]

Uhm-hmm...I've read through this entire thread and can't figure out what L.Sid did to get him frosted out of this forum--did he call someone a 'nugget' one too many times? (I've yet to figure out what, in his personal dictionary 'nugget' means, even. In several contexts in which it is used, it sounds similar to 'dipstick', 'jackleg', 'dingleberry' or somesuch, and in others, as a left-handed term of endearment like 'pumpkin', 'meathead', 'goofball' or so-forth...in all cases kind of vaguely diminishing.) But, from my perspective, the terms folks use to categorize others ALWAYS says more about themselves than those they attempt to put handles on, so taking offense at them puts you in agreement with it, rather than otherwise. But surely there's more to this situation that that?

I've noticed LSid tends to put things in high-contrast language and is unafraid of sharing his unique perspective, let the chips fall where they may. I love tabbed browsing. When something someone says bugs me for either mature or immature reasons, I just mutter 'ack! under my breath, X out the tab with that thread on it and keep on chooglin'.

10 years of being on forums like this later, it rarely happens that flame-throwing DOESN'T occur. We can't see each other's eyes, flailing hands and body language or hear the intonations in each other's voices. Misunderstanding/misinterpretation is simply going to happen. Assigning attitude and emotions wrongly to bald, typed words is inevitable. I rarely bother to involve myself with altercations over it. Usually better to hold one's tongue than let it flap the breeze to fan unfortunate flames...

But I AM curious about what the core bone of contention was, here, if anyone cares to give me the Readers Digest Condensed version?

Emperors and apparel? We are trying to put this to rest. Bringing back the LS, PBUH, seems unlikely here and the world has some really nasty people out there who are very worthy of our attention.

His absence is a painful subject for many of us here.

[Hughe]

When you ban a member, let out information so that other members judge to check your action in common sense. Mods come out with good reasons of account deletion biased, filtered information of course. If I buy one-sided claim, I'm a fool. Full disclose why your mods remove or delete accounts. Why do you act behind the scene like the corrupted system? I'm not attacking the admin or mods.

Without transparency the organization or individual will corrupt.

@sunnyrap,

Lord Sidius is banned?

[sunnyrap]

It is a fair question Hughe and others pose: if comments are made between members privately and the conversation or fallout from it does not effect the membership as a whole, does not barring a member for his side of the conversation constitute an abuse of power? The very foundation of the First Amendment is, 'I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it'.

That said, and reading again what Bill had to say about moderators and guidelines, their job is also a kind of 'National Security'...e.g., protecting the integrity of the forum from activities that will weaken or even threaten to seriously damage it. I personally have left a number of forums that devolved into a running heated argument, the original focus lost in the fray of battling pov's. (I'm going to interject here that, iIMO, 'egos' should be treated with just as much love and respect as any other part of our being-ness--they are a tool of learning and experience). Isn't it interesting how this forum is a fractal of the nation, which is a fractal of the world..etcetera etcetera

This is just a suggestion, but since we have the capacity to run a poll on such questions, might it not be instructive to all of us to run a poll of the members on this one as a 'reality check' for all involved?

[Ultima Thule]

Mod try-out at Avalon Avalanche


Chapter I - the plot

After being asked to, I decided to join and do a try-out in the mod-team to see what I would find and learn in that position, suspecting whether I would have the time for it and also had doubts of how I can handle things and whether I have what it takes. In the few weeks in the mod team I noticed several things:

The admins/mods are doing spectacular work, even before my hat was clearly off for them, but after spending considerable time in the "backchannel", even for such a short time, I can´t even begin to describe the utmost respect I have for those guys, their effort goes beyond anything I could have ever imagined beforehand and is worthy of every praise given - even though they don´t expect any praises for it.
They too rarely receive any, might I add :drum:

What I also found out much more clearly than ever, was that the discussion in here does not often - too often in my opinion - aim at all for going forward and building up of discussion in a positive way and continuing from where the previous person left the idea - carrying a torch, if you will. Instead much of the discussion and the potential power of Avalon and the resources of the mod team are wasted in a sideways discussion.

To be a mod in here requires at the very minimum RHINO-class thickness of skin, if not thicker. Slowly, during especially in the last week or so, I have noticed that this type of thickness of skin is not something I wish to develope and do not feel it to be on my path. I enjoy doing things or even fighting a bit FOR something, unfortunately here the mod team is constantly having to fight AGAINST something or someone, I am sorry that it is so, I was even tempted to leave this forum altogether.

I am not disappointed in my try, wouldn´t have missed it for the world and would´t change a thing, but am a bit disappointed in other ways, which is quite okay, for that is life - you never fail to succeed, or should I say: every failure is showing you the way to success.

The most and VERY, VERY positive thing indeed I feel that came out of this is that I got to know a good portion of the very brightest(in all ways imaginable) of people in here - in the so called backchannel. Them being the best thing I have found in Avalon is really something, as there are PRRRRRETTY darn excellent things to compare with in here!


Chapter II - make notes and share

A few notes I´ve made during my "extensive" career as a MIT include, but are not limited to the following:

For those of you who are paid help - as in rewarded in some way for your work to bring discord here - you are excused, you are just doing your job, though I do challenge you to think about the stuff you read in here and consider what you are rooting for.

Those of you who are not being rewarded, and in extreme cases after just a few weeks in to this private party that has been going on for years, are certain that you of all the possible people have stumbled upon misconducts, unfairness, or whatever conspiracy you are sure to have spotted, that absolutely must be brought up and fought over, and this has been happening extensively - you are doing much more harm than you ever could do any good. The chances of you (or me for that matter) stumbling to a smoking gun in here is comparative to kicking dirt in the streets of Milan and from under the dirt exposing unharmed, unbeknownt painting of Da Vinci.

After seeing the amount of effort, commitment and consideration that is put in by the admins and moderators, it in my opinion far exceeds anything I have seen any regular member contribute here - and I am not talking about myself here. From now on I challenge this latter group of people to hold their silence, leaving the stage set for the ones still visible being most propably representatives of the first group of paid help. There is off course nice little irony to bee seen here as Avalon could be labeled narrowly as a Conspiracy theory -site, making it ironic that we go about developing and researching conspiracies in regards of the outer world and when there is not so much happening out there, we choose to create them inside.


Chapter III - 991 help!

Just a few examples of the basic substance of contradictory posts that 99% of the time would be best left unposted, are to be presented here. I ask of all of us to think if my post really is of the remaining 1%. These are some stereotypes of such posts:

Example 1: "my question(s) are still unaswered"- usually this is not the case, you just are not happy with the answer that was given.

Example 2. At page 56 (possibly taking a side): "I haven't read what this is about, but I'm still going to offer my two cents" - need I say more?

Example 3. "After saying this I will be propably banned" - why either A. Say it in the first place if there truly is in your opinion such substance to it that would warrant that or B. In most if not all cases it is about innuendoes and casting suspicion and creating disharmony. Why post something like that, doesn't it actually make it the very grounds of re-concidering your position in here?

Example 4. After 56 pages of ranting and arguing: "it is so good that we got to vent and get it off our chest" - when you need to vent, you go out for a run, why do it here? I am certainly also to blame here, especially this post could be easily counted as venting or perhaps my first "rant" ever, but then again, please let me because that conveniently leads us to the next chapter called


Chapter IV - Fire at will, it´s only the moderators, they must not shoot back

Moderators are members like anyone in here and there is absolutely no excuse for them to be fired at will, and yet this is done on a regular basis and most of the time they just absorb it. It seems to revolve around the misconception of a member having the right to write almost anything to a mod or aimed indirectly at a mod or the mods in general and at the same time having affinity to think that it is the duty of a mod to absorb it, them being in somehow different status - I was accused of using emoticons as being not fit for mod to use. This is after all an internet forum?! Nuff said ;)
In fact, the basic set up reminds me of the famous fish slapping dance in monty python - guess which one is the mod? Those of you who give the video a bit of thought, will perhaps find it to carry a strangely fitting theme.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s


Chapter V - closure

With the utmost gratitude and respect towards Bill Ryan - our host here, the mod team and towards a certain, unfortunately mostly silent(but not always) and considerate percentage of the members, I ask for my mod-in-training status be taken off.

Also just as a practical note, that was also a bit of a deal-breaker, I have found this job to be a bit too much time consuming, as I would like to do this with proficiency and the utmost consideration, which when done, consumes loads of time.

I will now go west and remain Galadriel, scratch that - Ultima Thule ;)
I would like to ask for thanks for this post, not for me, but for the mod team and especially if you find what I have said in this post resonating true, not absolute truth, but a good enough representation of it.

Juha aka Ultima Thule

UPDATE:

Epilogue - Instant oppressor coming right up, just add some luke warm water and a mod-status

What was in hindsight perhaps the most mind boggling thing to wrap my mind around in my short time as MIT was the fact that I´m your stereotypical every day ordinary Joe the Avalonian, whom nobody would normally hold no preconceptions about, but the minute I was a mod, I was under suspicion, perhaps even a little bit guilty to start with(just in case), until proven innocent. It must take two parties to hold suspicion and to be suspected of something, and I do appreciate the dynamics that are at play here, where it might not really matter who is playing the parts and I don´t know what would be an ideal solution as to how to manage something like this forum, but I would like to ask everyone to consider whether they would suspect themselves of all the things the mods are suspected of? I ask this to be considered as food for thought, because were any of you in any mods shoes, in my experience, you would be a suspect, never mind how absurd you might think that to be at the moment.

[Anchor]

Knowing when to quit is just as important as knowing when to start :)

[ulli]

I just received an e-mail from another forum.
Open Minds Forum. Also about disclosure, etc.

I think they might have had a moderation upheaval, too.
How odd.
Planets, anyone?
Here is the letter. Maybe our mod team will draw some consolation from the fact that they are still all here and getting along.


To all members,

We regret to announce that as of today four of the five Co-Administrators and Co-Owners of the Open Minds Forum: Lee, Doc, Manuel and Chris, are leaving the forum and will no longer be active participants at OM.

We consider it an honor to have served here, treasure the experiences we've had and the friendships we made. We have each enjoyed our time at OMF immensely and thank you all individually for your contributions. As sad as we are to leave our internet home we are taking the lessons we learned to another location where we will build something new.

To this end, we are proud to announce the following:

The OutPost Forum.

The last stop on the Frontier of Understanding. On the pathway that leads from Exploration to Discovery and Disclosure, a place to meet and discuss events and mysteries, encounters and revelations. Taking our favorite topics to a new level of freedom, interest and exploration. New look, new approach, new rules. And lots of your old friends. Come join us at The OutPost--'TOP'--Forum."

www.TheOutPostForum.com - "Exploring the Frontier of Understanding . . ."

Thank you for taking the time to read this announcement and for your understanding. We wish you all the best in the future and hope to see you soon at our new home

Best to all,

Lee
Doc
Chris
Manuel

[ulli]

Mod try-out at Avalon Avalanche


Chapter I - the plot

After being asked to, I decided to join and do a try-out in the mod-team to see what I would find and learn in that position, suspecting whether I would have the time for it and also had doubts of how I can handle things and whether I have what it takes. In the few weeks in the mod team I noticed several things:

The admins/mods are doing spectacular work, even before my hat was clearly off for them, but after spending considerable time in the "backchannel", even for such a short time, I can´t even begin to describe the utmost respect I have for those guys, their effort goes beyond anything I could have ever imagined beforehand and is worthy of every praise given - even though they don´t expect any praises for it.
They too rarely receive any, might I add :drum:

What I also found out much more clearly than ever, was that the discussion in here does not often - too often in my opinion - aim at all for going forward and building up of discussion in a positive way and continuing from where the previous person left the idea - carrying a torch, if you will. Instead much of the discussion and the potential power of Avalon and the resources of the mod team are wasted in a sideways discussion.

To be a mod in here requires at the very minimum RHINO-class thickness of skin, if not thicker. Slowly, during especially in the last week or so, I have noticed that this type of thickness of skin is not something I wish to develope and do not feel it to be on my path. I enjoy doing things or even fighting a bit FOR something, unfortunately here the mod team is constantly having to fight AGAINST something or someone, I am sorry that it is so, I was even tempted to leave this forum altogether.

I am not disappointed in my try, wouldn´t have missed it for the world and would´t change a thing, but am a bit disappointed in other ways, which is quite okay, for that is life - you never fail to succeed, or should I say: every failure is showing you the way to success.

The most and VERY, VERY positive thing indeed I feel that came out of this is that I got to know a good portion of the very brightest(in all ways imaginable) of people in here - in the so called backchannel. Them being the best thing I have found in Avalon is really something, as there are PRRRRRETTY darn excellent things to compare with in here!


Chapter II - make notes and share

A few notes I´ve made during my "extensive" career as a MIT include, but are not limited to the following:

For those of you who are paid help - as in rewarded in some way for your work to bring discord here - you are excused, you are just doing your job, though I do challenge you to think about the stuff you read in here and consider what you are rooting for.

Those of you who are not being rewarded, and in extreme cases after just a few weeks in to this private party that has been going on for years, are certain that you of all the possible people have stumbled upon misconducts, unfairness, or whatever conspiracy you are sure to have spotted, that absolutely must be brought up and fought over, and this has been happening extensively - you are doing much more harm than you ever could do any good. The chances of you (or me for that matter) stumbling to a smoking gun in here is comparative to kicking dirt in the streets of Milan and from under the dirt exposing unharmed, unbeknownt painting of Da Vinci.

After seeing the amount of effort, commitment and consideration that is put in by the admins and moderators, it in my opinion far exceeds anything I have seen any regular member contribute here - and I am not talking about myself here. From now on I challenge this latter group of people to hold their silence, leaving the stage set for the ones still visible being most propably representatives of the first group of paid help. There is off course nice little irony to bee seen here as Avalon could be labeled narrowly as a Conspiracy theory -site, making it ironic that we go about developing and researching conspiracies in regards of the outer world and when there is not so much happening out there, we choose to create them inside.


Chapter III - 991 help!

Just a few examples of the basic substance of contradictory posts that 99% of the time would be best left unposted, are to be presented here. I ask of all of us to think if my post really is of the remaining 1%. These are some stereotypes of such posts:

Example 1: "my question(s) are still unaswered"- usually this is not the case, you just are not happy with the answer that was given.

Example 2. At page 56 (possibly taking a side): "I haven't read what this is about, but I'm still going to offer my two cents" - need I say more?

Example 3. "After saying this I will be propably banned" - why either A. Say it in the first place if there truly is in your opinion such substance to it that would warrant that or B. In most if not all cases it is about innuendoes and casting suspicion and creating disharmony. Why post something like that, doesn't it actually make it the very grounds of re-concidering your position in here?

Example 4. After 56 pages of ranting and arguing: "it is so good that we got to vent and get it off our chest" - when you need to vent, you go out for a run, why do it here? I am certainly also to blame here, especially this post could be easily counted as venting or perhaps my first "rant" ever, but then again, please let me because that conveniently leads us to the next chapter called


Chapter IV - Fire at will, it´s only the moderators, they must not shoot back

Moderators are members like anyone in here and there is absolutely no excuse for them to be fired at will, and yet this is done on a regular basis and most of the time they just absorb it. It seems to revolve around the misconception of a member having the right to write almost anything to a mod or aimed indirectly at a mod or the mods in general and at the same time having affinity to think that it is the duty of a mod to absorb it, them being in somehow different status - I was accused of using emoticons as being not fit for mod to use. This is after all an internet forum?! Nuff said ;)
In fact, the basic set up reminds me of the famous fish slapping dance in monty python - guess which one is the mod? Those of you who give the video a bit of thought, will perhaps find it to carry a strangely fitting theme.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s


Chapter IV - closure

With the utmost gratitude and respect towards Bill Ryan - our host here, the mod team and towards a certain, unfortunately mostly silent(but not always) and considerate percentage of the members, I ask for my mod-in-training status be taken off.

Also just as a practical note, that was also a bit of a deal-breaker, I have found this job to be a bit too much time consuming, as I would like to do this with proficiency and the utmost consideration, which when done, consumes loads of time.

I will now go west and remain Galadriel, scratch that - Ultima Thule ;)
I would like to ask for thanks for this post, not for me, but for the mod team and especially if you find what I have said in this post resonating true, not absolute truth, but a good enough representation of it.

Juha aka Ultima Thule

Brilliant letter, Juha. Sorry to lose you as a moderator.
But some moderation can still be performed without the hat...
still a tough job, just not as much of a commitment.

[Bill Ryan]

mod try-out at avalon avalanche


chapter i - the plot

after being asked to, i decided to join and do a try-out in the mod-team to see what i would find and learn in that position, suspecting whether i would have the time for it and also had doubts of how i can handle things and whether i have what it takes. In the few weeks in the mod team i noticed several things:

The admins/mods are doing spectacular work, even before my hat was clearly off for them, but after spending considerable time in the "backchannel", even for such a short time, i can´t even begin to describe the utmost respect i have for those guys, their effort goes beyond anything i could have ever imagined beforehand and is worthy of every praise given - even though they don´t expect any praises for it.
They too rarely receive any, might i add :drum:

What i also found out much more clearly than ever, was that the discussion in here does not often - too often in my opinion - aim at all for going forward and building up of discussion in a positive way and continuing from where the previous person left the idea - carrying a torch, if you will. Instead much of the discussion and the potential power of avalon and the resources of the mod team are wasted in a sideways discussion.

To be a mod in here requires at the very minimum rhino-class thickness of skin, if not thicker. Slowly, during especially in the last week or so, i have noticed that this type of thickness of skin is not something i wish to develope and do not feel it to be on my path. I enjoy doing things or even fighting a bit for something, unfortunately here the mod team is constantly having to fight against something or someone, i am sorry that it is so, i was even tempted to leave this forum altogether.

I am not disappointed in my try, wouldn´t have missed it for the world and would´t change a thing, but am a bit disappointed in other ways, which is quite okay, for that is life - you never fail to succeed, or should i say: Every failure is showing you the way to success.

The most and very, very positive thing indeed i feel that came out of this is that i got to know a good portion of the very brightest(in all ways imaginable) of people in here - in the so called backchannel. Them being the best thing i have found in avalon is really something, as there are prrrrretty darn excellent things to compare with in here!


chapter ii - make notes and share

a few notes i´ve made during my "extensive" career as a mit include, but are not limited to the following:

For those of you who are paid help - as in rewarded in some way for your work to bring discord here - you are excused, you are just doing your job, though i do challenge you to think about the stuff you read in here and consider what you are rooting for.

Those of you who are not being rewarded, and in extreme cases after just a few weeks in to this private party that has been going on for years, are certain that you of all the possible people have stumbled upon misconducts, unfairness, or whatever conspiracy you are sure to have spotted, that absolutely must be brought up and fought over, and this has been happening extensively - you are doing much more harm than you ever could do any good. The chances of you (or me for that matter) stumbling to a smoking gun in here is comparative to kicking dirt in the streets of milan and from under the dirt exposing unharmed, unbeknownt painting of da vinci.

After seeing the amount of effort, commitment and consideration that is put in by the admins and moderators, it in my opinion far exceeds anything i have seen any regular member contribute here - and i am not talking about myself here. From now on i challenge this latter group of people to hold their silence, leaving the stage set for the ones still visible being most propably representatives of the first group of paid help. there is off course nice little irony to bee seen here as avalon could be labeled narrowly as a conspiracy theory -site, making it ironic that we go about developing and researching conspiracies in regards of the outer world and when there is not so much happening out there, we choose to create them inside.


chapter iii - 991 help!

just a few examples of the basic substance of contradictory posts that 99% of the time would be best left unposted, are to be presented here. I ask of all of us to think if my post really is of the remaining 1%. These are some stereotypes of such posts:

Example 1: "my question(s) are still unaswered"- usually this is not the case, you just are not happy with the answer that was given.

Example 2. At page 56 (possibly taking a side): "i haven't read what this is about, but i'm still going to offer my two cents" - need i say more?

Example 3. "after saying this i will be propably banned" - why either a. Say it in the first place if there truly is in your opinion such substance to it that would warrant that or b. In most if not all cases it is about innuendoes and casting suspicion and creating disharmony. Why post something like that, doesn't it actually make it the very grounds of re-concidering your position in here?

Example 4. After 56 pages of ranting and arguing: "it is so good that we got to vent and get it off our chest" - when you need to vent, you go out for a run, why do it here? I am certainly also to blame here, especially this post could be easily counted as venting or perhaps my first "rant" ever, but then again, please let me because that conveniently leads us to the next chapter called


chapter iv - fire at will, it´s only the moderators, they must not shoot back

moderators are members like anyone in here and there is absolutely no excuse for them to be fired at will, and yet this is done on a regular basis and most of the time they just absorb it. It seems to revolve around the misconception of a member having the right to write almost anything to a mod or aimed indirectly at a mod or the mods in general and at the same time having affinity to think that it is the duty of a mod to absorb it, them being in somehow different status - i was accused of using emoticons as being not fit for mod to use. This is after all an internet forum?! Nuff said ;)
in fact, the basic set up reminds me of the famous fish slapping dance in monty python - guess which one is the mod? Those of you who give the video a bit of thought, will perhaps find it to carry a strangely fitting theme.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihjqp-q1y1s


chapter v - closure

with the utmost gratitude and respect towards bill ryan - our host here, the mod team and towards a certain, unfortunately mostly silent(but not always) and considerate percentage of the members, i ask for my mod-in-training status be taken off.

Also just as a practical note, that was also a bit of a deal-breaker, i have found this job to be a bit too much time consuming, as i would like to do this with proficiency and the utmost consideration, which when done, consumes loads of time.

I will now go west and remain galadriel, scratch that - ultima thule ;)
i would like to ask for thanks for this post, not for me, but for the mod team and especially if you find what i have said in this post resonating true, not absolute truth, but a good enough representation of it.

juha aka ultima thule

Thank you!

[Daft Ada]

I am sad you have made that decision Juha, from what I have seen of your posts on the forum I thought you were doing an excellent job

[ktlight]

I am grateful to juha aka ultima thule for providing such a good picture of what goes on behind the scenes.

[Daft Ada]

I just received an e-mail from another forum.
Open Minds Forum. Also about disclosure, etc.

I think they might have had a moderation upheaval, too.
How odd.
Planets, anyone?
Here is the letter. Maybe our mod team will draw some consolation from the fact that they are still all here and getting along.


To all members,

We regret to announce that as of today four of the five Co-Administrators and Co-Owners of the Open Minds Forum: Lee, Doc, Manuel and Chris, are leaving the forum and will no longer be active participants at OM.

We consider it an honor to have served here, treasure the experiences we've had and the friendships we made. We have each enjoyed our time at OMF immensely and thank you all individually for your contributions. As sad as we are to leave our internet home we are taking the lessons we learned to another location where we will build something new.

To this end, we are proud to announce the following:

The OutPost Forum.

The last stop on the Frontier of Understanding. On the pathway that leads from Exploration to Discovery and Disclosure, a place to meet and discuss events and mysteries, encounters and revelations. Taking our favorite topics to a new level of freedom, interest and exploration. New look, new approach, new rules. And lots of your old friends. Come join us at The OutPost--'TOP'--Forum."

www.TheOutPostForum.com - "Exploring the Frontier of Understanding . . ."

Thank you for taking the time to read this announcement and for your understanding. We wish you all the best in the future and hope to see you soon at our new home

Best to all,

Lee
Doc
Chris
Manuel


Hi Ulli, I got this mail too, I the behavior of the mod team there lost the support of a lot of the members over how they behaved when it was proved that what the Pickering brothers was saying was possibly not as accurate as they would have us believe and, well quite frankly it became a fiasco of anyone who posted anything that they didn't agree with got banned. It cost them a great deal of respect and a lot of good members were lost, including John Lear, the forum became very quiet after that and had a cloud hanging over it for a very long time. It's obviously come to a head, I popped in there just now and the place looks like a ghost town, they even took the adds with them

[Fred Steeves]

I fully support Ilie, Paul, and all the mods in everything they do. They do a fantastic job which I deeply appreciate. The result is the quality of this forum.
:)

Hi Bill, glad you're feeling better. As a married man of 13 years, I could only wish the lovely Mrs.S would support every last little thing I do. Or maybe not so much...I may not always appreciate it at the time, but sometimes when I hear "FREDRICK!!!", there's a very good reason. I know I'm not perfect and so does she, and vice versa.

On the whole I deeply appreciate the mods here also, and have made that quite well known, both here and in an e-mail to Rob. Their service is much needed for the occassional weeding that needs to take place. However, I think it is sadly presumptious to say the quality of the forum lies solely with a few people. I've never had to be disciplined by a mod, does that mean still that any posts I've made that people may have appreciated is a direct result of moderation? I've never had the honor of interacting with so many interesting and informed individuals, me thinks they count for something too. No?

This mess we're in now is far beyond either Rob or the mods now. There's something else going on here that's not exactly of the friendly nature, but I don't yet know what it is, only that it's there. The shift in energy is remarkable, and unmistakeable, and I will not interact with it directly, atleast publicly. This is why you may not be hearing much from me for a time. As far as I'm concerned the time for words is about done anyway, I just wanted to make myself very clear before slipping back into the shadows to watch.

The time for me being here may just be done as well, and if it is I will be thanking you from the bottom of my heart Bill Ryan, it's been one hell of a ride bro, and I will always be grateful for the experience. To say it's been life altering would be a massive understatement. Also please note I would NEVER go to other forums and bad talk this place or you, even though I am beginning to suspect that my fierce loyalties to you may not be quite as well founded as they once were. We'll see. Even so, you're still cordially invited for that Manatee encounter boat ride on the Weeki Wachee river next time you're in town. Ya nugget...:P

Cheers,
Fred

[alienHunter]

The insanity of right wing politics is becoming 'common' knowledge and the right wing is scrambling to initiate a new plan. Here's hoping it won't work.

[eric charles]

so now that Bill i replying , everyone has turned to to sucking up ?

[alienHunter]

Where can I get one of those paid gigs...to cause trouble... ;)

[Orph]

The time for me being here may just be done as well,
Cheers,
This forum is no different than anything else in life. It ebbs and flows, up and down. Back and forth. People come, people go. And sooner or later it will reach a conclusion. When it's right for a person to be here, they're here. As we change, we may find it's no longer right to be here. We move on. Cheers Fred. And cheers to all!!

[Carmody]

so now that Bill i replying , everyone has turned to to sucking up ?

Please don't be so psychologically illiterate. It makes you look quite foolish. take the time to think, please. An essential part of being human.

[Carmody]

I fully support Ilie, Paul, and all the mods in everything they do. They do a fantastic job which I deeply appreciate. The result is the quality of this forum.
:)

Hi Bill, glad you're feeling better. As a married man of 13 years, I could only wish the lovely Mrs.S would support every last little thing I do. Or maybe not so much...I may not always appreciate it at the time, but sometimes when I hear "FREDRICK!!!", there's a very good reason. I know I'm not perfect and so does she, and vice versa.

On the whole I deeply appreciate the mods here also, and have made that quite well known, both here and in an e-mail to Rob. Their service is much needed for the occassional weeding that needs to take place. However, I think it is sadly presumptious to say the quality of the forum lies solely with a few people. I've never had to be disciplined by a mod, does that mean still that any posts I've made that people may have appreciated is a direct result of moderation? I've never had the honor of interacting with so many interesting and informed individuals, me thinks they count for something too. No?

This mess we're in now is far beyond either Rob or the mods now. There's something else going on here that's not exactly of the friendly nature, but I don't yet know what it is, only that it's there. The shift in energy is remarkable, and unmistakeable, and I will not interact with it directly, atleast publicly. This is why you may not be hearing much from me for a time. As far as I'm concerned the time for words is about done anyway, I just wanted to make myself very clear before slipping back into the shadows to watch.

The time for me being here may just be done as well, and if it is I will be thanking you from the bottom of my heart Bill Ryan, it's been one hell of a ride bro, and I will always be grateful for the experience. To say it's been life altering would be a massive understatement. Also please note I would NEVER go to other forums and bad talk this place or you, even though I am beginning to suspect that my fierce loyalties to you may not be quite as well founded as they once were. We'll see. Even so, you're still cordially invited for that Manatee encounter boat ride on the Weeki Wachee river next time you're in town. Ya nugget...:P

Cheers,
Fred

change is tied to evolution and thus all attachments must eventually be released.

So it is wise to begin with no attachments and continue that way. to try things on in order to form a valid understanding, but no more than that. Loyalty is somewhat meaningless in an environment of change. Be true to the self.

Thus the danger of Romanticism. Loyalty being tied to romanticism, projection, and whatnot.

Closing the door on this forum might be one way of maintaining a loyalty to your ego-body.

It really is that simple. The way I leave forums is that I simply stop posting, no warnings, nothing.

No closure as there was no beginning and no attachment. I have moved on, but the door is open to return.

[DeDukshyn]

...
This mess we're in now is far beyond either Rob or the mods now. There's something else going on here that's not exactly of the friendly nature, but I don't yet know what it is, only that it's there. The shift in energy is remarkable, and unmistakeable, and I will not interact with it directly, atleast publicly. This is why you may not be hearing much from me for a time. As far as I'm concerned the time for words is about done anyway, I just wanted to make myself very clear before slipping back into the shadows to watch.
...
Cheers,
Fred

Fred,

I'm going to mirror Orphs post above and also add that this (these types of issues) is not even really about Avalon, it is about the nature of something. The Ego. If you re-read my post a few pages back where it appears I am damning Sid for using a "tactic" - one that my ex also uses in arguments. I should have made more clear that the actions of "instigator" and "crowds" in that example are rarely their own plans - this is programmed reaction being triggered. I see it everywhere, in innocent people like a disease that moves from person to person. How do you stop it? By keeping the debate to the exact topic and whenever it strays gently return it back, never anger, never judge, never hate -- these are things that get triggered by the programming and cause people to lash out irresponsibly. Forums are even trickier because everyone has to maintain a high level of personal integrity to not allow these things to ever propogate. This can be a lesson for us all - observers and participants alike - and is actually intended as the lesson.

Another thing I noticed that exactly what I said in that post about how people just pick up a story halfway through, and start judging the situation from there, happens way to much here.

My 2 cents ;)

[grapevine]

I fully support Ilie, Paul, and all the mods in everything they do. They do a fantastic job which I deeply appreciate. The result is the quality of this forum.
:)

Hi Bill, glad you're feeling better. As a married man of 13 years, I could only wish the lovely Mrs.S would support every last little thing I do. Or maybe not so much...I may not always appreciate it at the time, but sometimes when I hear "FREDRICK!!!", there's a very good reason. I know I'm not perfect and so does she, and vice versa.

On the whole I deeply appreciate the mods here also, and have made that quite well known, both here and in an e-mail to Rob. Their service is much needed for the occassional weeding that needs to take place. However, I think it is sadly presumptious to say the quality of the forum lies solely with a few people. I've never had to be disciplined by a mod, does that mean still that any posts I've made that people may have appreciated is a direct result of moderation? I've never had the honor of interacting with so many interesting and informed individuals, me thinks they count for something too. No?

This mess we're in now is far beyond either Rob or the mods now. There's something else going on here that's not exactly of the friendly nature, but I don't yet know what it is, only that it's there. The shift in energy is remarkable, and unmistakeable, and I will not interact with it directly, atleast publicly. This is why you may not be hearing much from me for a time. As far as I'm concerned the time for words is about done anyway, I just wanted to make myself very clear before slipping back into the shadows to watch.

The time for me being here may just be done as well, and if it is I will be thanking you from the bottom of my heart Bill Ryan, it's been one hell of a ride bro, and I will always be grateful for the experience. To say it's been life altering would be a massive understatement. Also please note I would NEVER go to other forums and bad talk this place or you, even though I am beginning to suspect that my fierce loyalties to you may not be quite as well founded as they once were. We'll see. Even so, you're still cordially invited for that Manatee encounter boat ride on the Weeki Wachee river next time you're in town. Ya nugget...:P

Cheers,
Fred

Fred - I've ALWAYS loved your posts whether they were in accord with mine or not. You would be a real loss to the forum if you went. Why not just leave your membership open and in a few weeks, or a few months ... whatever .... you know what I'm saying ....?

Lin

[Unified Serenity]

The insanity of right wing politics is becoming 'common' knowledge and the right wing is scrambling to initiate a new plan. Here's hoping it won't work.

This is another flaming type of response. This has nothing to do with left / right paradigm or liberal or conservative or left wing / right wing anything. Thanks for adding more gasoline, but I ask no one buy into this. This forum is powerful, it is under energetic attack and those with eyes to see need to surround it in light, calm energy, and recognize even if unintended how a simple post can set off a forest fire.

Yeh, we are under attack and it's not by anyone on the right or left, but in a big ol pyramid looking down.

[grapevine]

Yeh, we are under attack and it's not by anyone on the right or left, but in a big ol pyramid looking down.

I think you're right US!

[Fred Steeves]

Fred - I've ALWAYS loved your posts whether they were in accord with mine or not. You would be a real loss to the forum if you went. Why not just leave your membership open and in a few weeks, or a few months ... whatever .... you know what I'm saying ....?

Lin

Hi Lin, and thank you, much appreciated. I'll pop in once more just to be clear about this so there are no misunderstandings. The nearly over riding urge I had, along with others, to hit the un-subscribe button, was put to rest by the time I posted that, after a long and thoughtful soul searching week-end at the river. Spirit said stay, and I don't second guess her any more. What you are referring to is more of me tossing the matter of staying or leaving to the four winds that blow, as I'm actually somewhat surprised to even find myself still here quite honestly, and not on my own little vacation.

I am NOT going to be posting much after this. For some months now Spirit has been patiently but persistantly tapping me on the shoulder saying it's time for quiet. Up til now this has not made much sense and I have ignored her. Now I think I understand, as she whacks me upside the head. The time for words is basically over. United Serenity is precisely right, Avalon IS very much under attack, and this ain't no drill folks. I will not tango with this dark sticky energy publicly, but I will be all the positive influence I can be behind the scenes. If Bill will have it, I'll be here to help pick up the pieces when it's all said and done, if there are indeed any pieces left.

Cheers,
Fred

[GCS1103]

I fully support Ilie, Paul, and all the mods in everything they do. They do a fantastic job which I deeply appreciate. The result is the quality of this forum.
:)

Hi Bill, glad you're feeling better. As a married man of 13 years, I could only wish the lovely Mrs.S would support every last little thing I do. Or maybe not so much...I may not always appreciate it at the time, but sometimes when I hear "FREDRICK!!!", there's a very good reason. I know I'm not perfect and so does she, and vice versa.

On the whole I deeply appreciate the mods here also, and have made that quite well known, both here and in an e-mail to Rob. Their service is much needed for the occassional weeding that needs to take place. However, I think it is sadly presumptious to say the quality of the forum lies solely with a few people. I've never had to be disciplined by a mod, does that mean still that any posts I've made that people may have appreciated is a direct result of moderation? I've never had the honor of interacting with so many interesting and informed individuals, me thinks they count for something too. No?

This mess we're in now is far beyond either Rob or the mods now. There's something else going on here that's not exactly of the friendly nature, but I don't yet know what it is, only that it's there. The shift in energy is remarkable, and unmistakeable, and I will not interact with it directly, atleast publicly. This is why you may not be hearing much from me for a time. As far as I'm concerned the time for words is about done anyway, I just wanted to make myself very clear before slipping back into the shadows to watch.

The time for me being here may just be done as well, and if it is I will be thanking you from the bottom of my heart Bill Ryan, it's been one hell of a ride bro, and I will always be grateful for the experience. To say it's been life altering would be a massive understatement. Also please note I would NEVER go to other forums and bad talk this place or you, even though I am beginning to suspect that my fierce loyalties to you may not be quite as well founded as they once were. We'll see. Even so, you're still cordially invited for that Manatee encounter boat ride on the Weeki Wachee river next time you're in town. Ya nugget...:P

Cheers,
Fred

Fred- After being on this forum for a while, you get to know some of the members by their posts, their views, their egos, etc. After awhile, you get a sense of what a member is like "in real life". I have been waiting for your post above, which I knew was coming. There was no doubt in my heart that this affair was going to deeply affect you, as it affected me. You and I got to know Rob, off the forum, and we both know the goodness and loyalty that is his being. The bluster and sarcastic wit (and his aversion to authority;)) was just part of the "Lord Sidious" figure, the true worth of this man is really found in Rob Halford. I will continue to be in touch with him long after you or I are gone from this forum, for good.

This escalated into a tug of war with some people here- who was going to "win" this little skirmish. I believe that avalon, as a whole, is the loser. There can be no denying that this forum's atmosphere has changed. To say otherwise is simply untrue. Whether or not it will be a better forum without Rob, I couldn't say, but I have my suspicions. I just know that I personally feel like I have been to a funeral. I am comforted in knowing that although you may not post very much, you will still be in the background observing. You are one incredibly wonderful person.

Goldie

[modwiz]

It is a fair question Hughe and others pose: if comments are made between members privately and the conversation or fallout from it does not effect the membership as a whole, does not barring a member for his side of the conversation constitute an abuse of power? The very foundation of the First Amendment is, 'I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it'.

That said, and reading again what Bill had to say about moderators and guidelines, their job is also a kind of 'National Security'...e.g., protecting the integrity of the forum from activities that will weaken or even threaten to seriously damage it. I personally have left a number of forums that devolved into a running heated argument, the original focus lost in the fray of battling pov's. (I'm going to interject here that, iIMO, 'egos' should be treated with just as much love and respect as any other part of our being-ness--they are a tool of learning and experience). Isn't it interesting how this forum is a fractal of the nation, which is a fractal of the world..etcetera etcetera

This is just a suggestion, but since we have the capacity to run a poll on such questions, might it not be instructive to all of us to run a poll of the members on this one as a 'reality check' for all involved?

I am reminded of a cartoon called South Park and a character named Eric Cartman. He had a saying, "You will respect my authoritay!" For a cartoon that is soo wrong it is also soo right.

[modwiz]

I fully support Ilie, Paul, and all the mods in everything they do. They do a fantastic job which I deeply appreciate. The result is the quality of this forum.
:)

Hi Bill, glad you're feeling better. As a married man of 13 years, I could only wish the lovely Mrs.S would support every last little thing I do. Or maybe not so much...I may not always appreciate it at the time, but sometimes when I hear "FREDRICK!!!", there's a very good reason. I know I'm not perfect and so does she, and vice versa.

On the whole I deeply appreciate the mods here also, and have made that quite well known, both here and in an e-mail to Rob. Their service is much needed for the occassional weeding that needs to take place. However, I think it is sadly presumptious to say the quality of the forum lies solely with a few people. I've never had to be disciplined by a mod, does that mean still that any posts I've made that people may have appreciated is a direct result of moderation? I've never had the honor of interacting with so many interesting and informed individuals, me thinks they count for something too. No?

This mess we're in now is far beyond either Rob or the mods now. There's something else going on here that's not exactly of the friendly nature, but I don't yet know what it is, only that it's there. The shift in energy is remarkable, and unmistakeable, and I will not interact with it directly, atleast publicly. This is why you may not be hearing much from me for a time. As far as I'm concerned the time for words is about done anyway, I just wanted to make myself very clear before slipping back into the shadows to watch.

The time for me being here may just be done as well, and if it is I will be thanking you from the bottom of my heart Bill Ryan, it's been one hell of a ride bro, and I will always be grateful for the experience. To say it's been life altering would be a massive understatement. Also please note I would NEVER go to other forums and bad talk this place or you, even though I am beginning to suspect that my fierce loyalties to you may not be quite as well founded as they once were. We'll see. Even so, you're still cordially invited for that Manatee encounter boat ride on the Weeki Wachee river next time you're in town. Ya nugget...:P

Cheers,
Fred

Fred- After being on this forum for a while, you get to know some of the members by their posts, their views, their egos, etc. After awhile, you get a sense of what a member is like "in real life". I have been waiting for your post above, which I knew was coming. There was no doubt in my heart that this affair was going to deeply affect you, as it affected me. You and I got to know Rob, off the forum, and we both know the goodness and loyalty that is his being. The bluster and sarcastic wit (and his aversion to authority;)) was just part of the "Lord Sidious" figure, the true worth of this man is really found in Rob Halford. I will continue to be in touch with him long after you or I are gone from this forum, for good.

This escalated into a tug of war with some people here- who was going to "win" this little skirmish. I believe that avalon, as a whole, is the loser. There can be no denying that this forum's atmosphere has changed. To say otherwise is simply untrue. Whether or not it will be a better forum without Rob, I couldn't say, but I have my suspicions. I just know that I personally feel like I have been to a funeral. I am comforted in knowing that although you may not post very much, you will still be in the background observing. You are one incredibly wonderful person.

Goldie

Rob Halford. Grapes bigger than trucks. Willing to argue, on the gallows, noose around his neck, with those holding the lever to the trapdoor he was standing on. I love him.

I do not choose that path, for my own reasons. The sorrow of many is hopefully not the joy of a few.

[DeDukshyn]

...
Rob Haldord. Grapes bigger than trucks. Willing to argue, on the gallows, noose around his neck, with those holding the lever to the trapdoor he was standing on. I love him.
I do not choose that path, for my own reasons. The sorrow of many is hopefully not the joy of a few.

I for one will greatly miss the Dark Lord, and I honestly feel that extreme few, if any at all won't miss him as well. I wish none of this would have turned out this way, but it did. Forward from here, and I do hope Rob re-applies at some point and is accepted back by the mod team - flaws and all on everyone's part ;)

[DeDukshyn]

Fred - I've ALWAYS loved your posts whether they were in accord with mine or not. You would be a real loss to the forum if you went. Why not just leave your membership open and in a few weeks, or a few months ... whatever .... you know what I'm saying ....?

Lin

Hi Lin, and thank you, much appreciated. I'll pop in once more just to be clear about this so there are no misunderstandings. The nearly over riding urge I had, along with others, to hit the un-subscribe button, was put to rest by the time I posted that, after a long and thoughtful soul searching week-end at the river. Spirit said stay, and I don't second guess her any more. What you are referring to is more of me tossing the matter of staying or leaving to the four winds that blow, as I'm actually somewhat surprised to even find myself still here quite honestly, and not on my own little vacation.

I am NOT going to be posting much after this. For some months now Spirit has been patiently but persistantly tapping me on the shoulder saying it's time for quiet. Up til now this has not made much sense and I have ignored her. Now I think I understand, as she whacks me upside the head. The time for words is basically over. United Serenity is precisely right, Avalon IS very much under attack, and this ain't no drill folks. I will not tango with this dark sticky energy publicly, but I will be all the positive influence I can be behind the scenes. If Bill will have it, I'll be here to help pick up the pieces when it's all said and done, if there are indeed any pieces left.

Cheers,
Fred

Interesting Synchronicity ...

I actually did hit the unsubscribe button a few weeks ago. Ilie responded and said he'd wait for my final confirmation. After a good few days deliberation, I decided to stay. I am actually very glad that I did; I have had both the opportunity to share some very valuable perspectives as well as learn some things myself in the rather short time since then. Next time I get that urge, I'll just stay away for a few weeks first (if I can) before making my final decision. Everything is process and process is goal. My two cents ;)

And glad you are sticking around :)

[DeDukshyn]

Yeh, we are under attack and it's not by anyone on the right or left, but in a big ol pyramid looking down.

I think you're right US!

I'm going to sort of agree here - in that it is something bigger ...

<gets on Soapbox for general speech>
I try to look at at everything from a holographic perspective. When **** hits the fan here - it is also hitting the fan in peoples personal lives, in business, in emotional states, in politics, and in logic and reasoning. I am sensing much larger patterns at work here and we must not get caught up in what we are perceiving as an emotional response triggered from the "issue of the day".

Is this mind control techniques of the elite? The natural (or aided) purging of lower frequencies from our collective psyche? It matters not. Learning to not let it affect you or your expressions of yourself is in its entirety THE solution to every perceivable problem on this planet. Time for us all to practice ;)

[sunnyrap]

Why don't you and Rob create your own forum--administer and moderate (or not) the way you see it? You certainly have a fan base and the willingness to put in the time to oversee it. Easy as a free WordPress site... Pretty typical for groups to splinter off into new sub-groups with a different approach for those who feel constricted by the original group. Then the only authority to resist will be your own.




It is a fair question Hughe and others pose: if comments are made between members privately and the conversation or fallout from it does not effect the membership as a whole, does not barring a member for his side of the conversation constitute an abuse of power? The very foundation of the First Amendment is, 'I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it'.

That said, and reading again what Bill had to say about moderators and guidelines, their job is also a kind of 'National Security'...e.g., protecting the integrity of the forum from activities that will weaken or even threaten to seriously damage it. I personally have left a number of forums that devolved into a running heated argument, the original focus lost in the fray of battling pov's. (I'm going to interject here that, iIMO, 'egos' should be treated with just as much love and respect as any other part of our being-ness--they are a tool of learning and experience). Isn't it interesting how this forum is a fractal of the nation, which is a fractal of the world..etcetera etcetera

This is just a suggestion, but since we have the capacity to run a poll on such questions, might it not be instructive to all of us to run a poll of the members on this one as a 'reality check' for all involved?

I am reminded of a cartoon called South Park and a character named Eric Cartman. He had a saying, "You will respect my authoritay!" For a cartoon that is soo wrong it is also soo right.

[modwiz]

Why don't you and Rob create your own forum--administer and moderate (or not) the way you see it? You certainly have a fan base and the willingness to put in the time to oversee it. Easy as a free WordPress site... Pretty typical for groups to splinter off into new sub-groups with a different approach for those who feel constricted by the original group. Then the only authority to resist will be your own.




It is a fair question Hughe and others pose: if comments are made between members privately and the conversation or fallout from it does not effect the membership as a whole, does not barring a member for his side of the conversation constitute an abuse of power? The very foundation of the First Amendment is, 'I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it'.

That said, and reading again what Bill had to say about moderators and guidelines, their job is also a kind of 'National Security'...e.g., protecting the integrity of the forum from activities that will weaken or even threaten to seriously damage it. I personally have left a number of forums that devolved into a running heated argument, the original focus lost in the fray of battling pov's. (I'm going to interject here that, iIMO, 'egos' should be treated with just as much love and respect as any other part of our being-ness--they are a tool of learning and experience). Isn't it interesting how this forum is a fractal of the nation, which is a fractal of the world..etcetera etcetera

This is just a suggestion, but since we have the capacity to run a poll on such questions, might it not be instructive to all of us to run a poll of the members on this one as a 'reality check' for all involved?

I am reminded of a cartoon called South Park and a character named Eric Cartman. He had a saying, "You will respect my authoritay!" For a cartoon that is soo wrong it is also soo right.

I have no interest in that. That is a major responsibility and time commitment. I will work with the authoritays here. I do not feel constricted. The important information to our times has a great platform here. The personality stuff comes with the territory and is more difficult for some to negotiate than others. I accept an imperfect world.

[mosquito]

Interesting times.

I find myself agreeing with everything everyone says, even things which are in direct contradiction. I also find myself torn between the "stay silent for a while" approach and the "maintain a presence, life goes on" approach.

Fred - I wholeheartedly agree with Goldie, you are someone I've appreciated from almost the word go and you're on my list of people I'd like to meet ! I recognize that you as any of us, may choose to leave, but it'll be a sad day if you do.

Juha - Thanks for your contribution as an MIT, I hope you'll enjoy "normal" membership !

I'm recognizing reflections of what's been going on here occuring in my daily life, I invite others to have a look at what's going on for them too. Whatever our personal feelings about Rob, let's not forget that we do indeed have a good team of moderators here, and if we want Avalon to continue to evolve in a positive way then it's up to us, all of us.

[M6*]

Sometimes we just have to "rise above the foolishness" and go with what we know in our hearts to be the right direction. I will always appreciate you for your kindness to me. Thank you. M6*

[Mike]

Fred - I've ALWAYS loved your posts whether they were in accord with mine or not. You would be a real loss to the forum if you went. Why not just leave your membership open and in a few weeks, or a few months ... whatever .... you know what I'm saying ....?

Lin

Hi Lin, and thank you, much appreciated. I'll pop in once more just to be clear about this so there are no misunderstandings. The nearly over riding urge I had, along with others, to hit the un-subscribe button, was put to rest by the time I posted that, after a long and thoughtful soul searching week-end at the river. Spirit said stay, and I don't second guess her any more. What you are referring to is more of me tossing the matter of staying or leaving to the four winds that blow, as I'm actually somewhat surprised to even find myself still here quite honestly, and not on my own little vacation.

I am NOT going to be posting much after this. For some months now Spirit has been patiently but persistantly tapping me on the shoulder saying it's time for quiet. Up til now this has not made much sense and I have ignored her. Now I think I understand, as she whacks me upside the head. The time for words is basically over. United Serenity is precisely right, Avalon IS very much under attack, and this ain't no drill folks. I will not tango with this dark sticky energy publicly, but I will be all the positive influence I can be behind the scenes. If Bill will have it, I'll be here to help pick up the pieces when it's all said and done, if there are indeed any pieces left.

Cheers,
Fred




what the hell are you talking about Fred???:) Avalon under attack from a dark, sticky energy? you make it sound as if Satan himself is preparing to shoot an enormous cyber-orgasm over the entire forum.;)

you know i have great respect for ya bud, but you've completely lost me here.

[K626]

A general point.

Think about it a minute. Who in their right minds would be a mod on a conspiracy site? :p

A thankless task if there ever was one. You're mostly dealing with people who although caring and so on...Have trained themselves to analyse the miuntest detail as goes with this particular territory.

In short the mods are doing a marvelous job on what is a big site to manage and negotiate.

These kinds of threads have their own lifespan and it should be short as peoples energy and attention is needed elsewhere.

Next year will be very interesting and we will all learn a lot more about ourselves. What we are made of and what we can do and can't do. Prepare for change. Welcome change. A whole universe of knowledge and interactions are waiting for every one of us.

Peace

K

[blake]

Hello All,


Yet another wake and funeral at Avalon; I am sorry that once again another member has been banned. I don’t know exactly what his crime was, anymore than I understood the crime of the others who have also been banned. I have been a member here for less than one year, and after so many metaphorical wars and funerals here at Avalon, I have grown accustomed to the constant change in energy as well as the comings and goings of members. All this banning and so much change all the time is not my cup of tea, as I do believe in building strength in relationships and having them be at least somewhat meaningful, but, alas, it is so reflective of the times. When I was growing up we had neighbors for twenty years or more. Now if neighbors stay for more than fours years, it’s surprising. Maybe it all started with the company IBM, or I’ve Been Moved, that initiated this acceptance of all this constant change and moving around. How does one build honest strength in a community when the undisciplined emotional energy washes away the foundation of respect and loyalty, over trivial warring?

I think this forum showcases, as real life does, that no one is irreplaceable or important to any forum or community. Perhaps there will be a short saddness to see them go, but we all give them their five seconds of silence for respect and the forum or community or company will move on, because people are committed to the community, and not to each other and especially not to the individual. It is just how humans work, and those in control understand that. It is only in the family, only in close knit, long life relationships in which anyone really is important to someone else. It is when I see young people dedicating themselves to some group or company thinking they can’t be replaced, and believe that they are actually appreciated, that saddens me, especially when they experience the shock that, after years of dedication they are let go or replaced for whatever reason company dictates, to rationalize their replacement. That why it is always important to understand the difference between business relationships, community relationships, and family relationships.

No one person on this site is more important than the group as a whole. That is the reality of the nature of most communities and associations. Authentic friendships, and committed family, and pets are the only ones who truly “love us” and find us irreplaceable. Yes, I understand that in the rush of the moment some may want to unsubscribe out of protest, but once the moment of high emotion calms down, they stay or regret leaving, or rethink their priority or loyalty.

How many threads this year have we had like this one? Too many, in my opinion. Yet, Mr. Ryan has seen so many more. He knows how they all play out. He allows us our grieving thread on the lost of a banned member until we are ready to move on, and we always move on. That is kind of like how the government works. They take away a right. stick the TSA or swat teams on us, listen to us complain, but then like clockwork we settle down, accept the loss, and move on with one less right, one less security, or watching good people being thrown in jail. You see it doesn’t really matter weather we are losing Lord Sidious, or losing our privacy, or losing our money, or losing our Constitution; humans always make a lot of noise before they accept the loss and move on........or they too will be banned.


Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Mark]

Break it on down, Mr. Davis. Thank you.

[Hughe]

I joined this forum around this time last year. It passed 13 months. Except the Charles saga, I'm afraid of saying Avalon continually kicks out members who contribute a lot by posting, interacting with fellow members. I see many ghosts members nowadays.

How do I feel? You guess. forum is a community, same as forest. Good forest have mixture of old trees, young ones, bushes, noise animals. Artificial man-made forest only few types of trees or plants. One bug species will destroy entire forest. That's why centralized system will doomed to fail. Always I hope this forum will remain as real forest which have various members coexist under one roof as unity.

Mods and Bill are going to make this nothing but a shallow forest?

[Mark]

Mods and Bill are going to make this nothing but a shallow forest?

Let's hope that the apparently cavalier attitude of some regarding the seriousness with which this issue has been taken by so many will affect future decisions to the extent that the forest remains diverse, lively and even contentious, as that is often a sign of vigorous life, growth and evolution. A few mutated venus flytraps and man-eating orchids in the environs keep the small animals and insects on their toes. Just gotta keep a good watch over 'em. ;)

[Unified Serenity]

Mods and Bill are going to make this nothing but a shallow forest?

Let's hope that the apparently cavalier attitude of some regarding the seriousness with which this issue has been taken by so many will affect future decisions to the extent that the forest remains diverse, lively and even contentious, as that is often a sign of vigorous life, growth and evolution. A few mutated venus flytraps and man-eating orchids in the environs keep the small animals and insects on their toes. Just gotta keep a good watch over 'em. ;)

While I agree with the spirit of what you say here, I would also like to add that may we also learn to temper our responses and attitudes as we communicate with one another. Let's not assume anyone is our enemy here. If a thread is clearly going off topic then stop and make a new thread on said topic, and stop the tit for tat crap of needing the last word. If you offend someone apologize. Don't be too easily offended. If you are offended politely say so, and let it go. If you notice a LOT of people are offended by you then maybe you are needing to evaluate why that is happening and ask yourself if that is the best way to be the change we want to see, and if you get your butt booted for it don't whine, you were warned over and over. If you don't like being warned, start your own damn forum and run it how you would like.

Ok, I've said my peace. I am sorry all this happened, but it did, it's done, and it's time to focus on more positive stuff.

[Mark]

While I agree with the spirit of what you say here, I would also like to add that may we also learn to temper our responses and attitudes as we communicate with one another. Let's not assume anyone is our enemy here. If a thread is clearly going off topic then stop and make a new thread on said topic, and stop the tit for tat crap of needing the last word. If you offend someone apologize. Don't be too easily offended. If you are offended politely say so, and let it go. If you notice a LOT of people are offended by you then maybe you are needing to evaluate why that is happening and ask yourself if that is the best way to be the change we want to see, and if you get your butt booted for it don't whine, you were warned over and over. If you don't like being warned, start your own damn forum and run it how you would like.

Ok, I've said my peace. I am sorry all this happened, but it did, it's done, and it's time to focus on more positive stuff.

Oh my goodness, I wish you wouldn't have quoted me here but you did. I've kept the thought to myself, but I might as well share it since you'ev raised it here. And this isn't about the last word, but is to address an issue that is part and parcel of this conversation but is also much larger. It is about the "moving on" impetus.

So many times in this thread and others. So many times I've heard it in the MSM. So many times I've heard it spoken by talking heads, so many times I've heard it spoken by politicians.

Every time they say it it means, forget the injustice, we have more things to do and talk about. There are larger issues, this is a small one. Let it go. Move on.

The implication is that you are dragging us down, you are focusing upon something unimportant, you are making yourself irrelevant. Move on.

Focus on the positive, forget the negative.

It'll all work itself out.

Well, what it does is fester, when you move on. What it does is find deeper roots, when you move on. What it does is reappear in another form, when you move on. What it does, it move on with you as you think you're moving on.

For those who want everyone to move on, everyone is moving on, it is the nature of life itself to move on. Positive must exist with negative and both must be expressed, it is the nature of moving on. We comment, discuss and interact because we enjoy it, because we enjoy doing it here, and we enjoy each other and if the moderators allow a thread to continue it is because they recognize that it is necessary, as long as no one inflames things again.

For moderation's sake, a certain respect and politeness is necessary so as to keep things civilized. Impatience, accusations and crass generalizations often lead to raised backs and, once more, raised emotions. That's when the moderators sigh and come back in to calm things down.

[Unified Serenity]

While I agree with the spirit of what you say here, I would also like to add that may we also learn to temper our responses and attitudes as we communicate with one another. Let's not assume anyone is our enemy here. If a thread is clearly going off topic then stop and make a new thread on said topic, and stop the tit for tat crap of needing the last word. If you offend someone apologize. Don't be too easily offended. If you are offended politely say so, and let it go. If you notice a LOT of people are offended by you then maybe you are needing to evaluate why that is happening and ask yourself if that is the best way to be the change we want to see, and if you get your butt booted for it don't whine, you were warned over and over. If you don't like being warned, start your own damn forum and run it how you would like.

Ok, I've said my peace. I am sorry all this happened, but it did, it's done, and it's time to focus on more positive stuff.

Oh my goodness, I wish you wouldn't have quoted me here but you did. This isn't about the last word, but is to address an issue that is part and parcel of this conversation but is also much larger. It is about the "moving on" impetus.

So many times in this thread and others. So many times I've heard it in the MSM. So many times I've heard it spoken by talking heads, so many times I've heard it spoken by politicians.

Every time they say it it means, forget the injustice, we have more things to do and talk about. There are larger issues, this is a small one. Let it go. Move on.

The implication is that you are dragging us down, you are focusing upon something unimportant, you are making yourself irrelevant. Move on.

Focus on the positive, forget the negative.

It'll all work itself out.

Well, what it does is fester, when you move on. What it does is find deeper roots, when you move on. What it does is reappear in another form, when you move on. What it does, it move on with you as you think you're moving on.

For those who want everyone to move on, everyone is moving on, it is the nature of life itself to move on. Positive must exist with negative and both must be expressed, it is the nature of moving on. We comment, discuss and interact because we enjoy it, because we enjoy doing it here, and we enjoy each other and if the moderators allow a thread to continue it is because they recognize that it is necessary, as long as no one inflames things again.

For moderation's sake, a certain respect and politeness is necessary so as to keep things civilized. Impatience, accusations and crass generalizations often lead to raised backs and, once more, raised emotions. That's when the moderators sigh and come back in to calm things down.

I understand what you are saying, it's just that what more is there to say. What exactly needs to happen to move on? Does LS have to come back? Do the mods have to say "we won't chastise members who repeatedly refuse to not intimidate or instigate repeated acts that nets us hundreds of complaints?" I mean, what has to happen? Does LS even want to come back and if he did would he be allowed to? I don't have the answers to any of this. I just know at this point it seems to be just a festering wound that keeps getting picked at and it won't heal until we do something and what is that?

I am focusing on very uplifting spiritual messages, songs, and meditation. I have not evolved enough to not be bothered, so maybe I need to just stay off of these posts.

[Mark]

I am focusing on very uplifting spiritual messages, songs, and meditation. I have not evolved enough to not be bothered, so maybe I need to just stay off of these posts.

:) Bless, sistren. i feel you on this one. LOL

[Anchor]

I understand what you are saying, it's just that what more is there to say. What exactly needs to happen to move on? Does LS have to come back? Do the mods have to say "we won't chastise members who repeatedly refuse to not intimidate or instigate repeated acts that nets us hundreds of complaints?" I mean, what has to happen? Does LS even want to come back and if he did would he be allowed to? I don't have the answers to any of this. I just know at this point it seems to be just a festering wound that keeps getting picked at and it won't heal until we do something and what is that?

I am focusing on very uplifting spiritual messages, songs, and meditation. I have not evolved enough to not be bothered, so maybe I need to just stay off of these posts.

Fascinating debate.

What occurs to me, is that it is natural in any complex community with lots of people on a temporarily shared path, for there to ultimately be a time of divergence and a parting of ways. I have seen this time and again on this particular series of forums (PA/PC PA1 PA2...) (since 2008). People join, people leave, sometime quietly, sometimes making a big fuss and bother. Sometimes whole groups leave and form new communities, and of those many are still going today. (Nexus, Agora, Mists of Avalon, Truth Herald to name some) each with varying degrees of success and popularity.

I think this is a natural process that will mirror in real life.

People migrate to where they need to be, among the communities they resonate with best. I think this is natural.

What needs to happen - more often than not, does happen.

Sometimes what we forget is that, the pain the arguments the friction and dissonance are real events, real karma (however small) happens, and forgiveness has its part to play in resolving the lingering issues as we move along each of our own paths.

John..

[Sierra]

Mods and Bill are going to make this nothing but a shallow forest?

Let's hope that the apparently cavalier attitude of some regarding the seriousness with which this issue has been taken by so many will affect future decisions to the extent that the forest remains diverse, lively and even contentious, as that is often a sign of vigorous life, growth and evolution. A few mutated venus flytraps and man-eating orchids in the environs keep the small animals and insects on their toes. Just gotta keep a good watch over 'em. ;)

Not cavalierly Rahkyt, nothing went down cavalierly. I've swollen eyeballs to prove it, if you want to see a very unattractive picture of me (and that was a rhetorical offer, snrt.)

Fred, I'm glad you are going to stay, even if it is silently. You give me laughter, feelings of love and kindness, and deep thoughts sometimes ...

Sierra

[blake]

Hello John,

Your post leads me to think that you may agree with Thomas Jefferson's quote, as I do, when he stated something like: the People need a revolution every twenty years to keep the government honest. I am wondering how that would translate into the Avalonian world?

Perhaps you too are in favor of state secession? As much as I love America for which she stands for, in reality America has been commandeered by the elite, and America's foundational principles have been deeply buried. Perhaps America, like Avalon, have members or states that perhaps need to go on a separate path so that they can thrive and not be overpowered by controlling factions which seek to feed on them? Does Avalon in some way become a predator to some of its members, and in some ways become more hurtful than helpful?

I believe that what you say about the parting of ways is sometimes true, but not always. But then again, even families hive off and eventually dissolve in time naturally through the generations. But becasue of its slow, and not abrupt process, it doesn't hurt the living.

Some things need slow change, and some need abrupt change to be effective and humans always adjust, even when pain is involved. But then again, America has been going through a slow change for decades, and the awakening will be probably be an abrupt change. Think driving one hundred miles in hour in a car and coming to an instant dead stop. Thats our future.

Just random thoughts

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[Second Son]

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Can I use the word "nuggetry here", or is it just Sid who is banned?

[Bill Ryan]

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Can I use the word "nuggetry here", or is it just Sid who is banned?

Please do make sure you read all the posts in this thread. That was not why he was asked to leave.

This may help! :)

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35969-Question-about-forum-moderation&p=370393&viewfull=1#post370393

[Adi]

Avalon has gone into the realm of lower human thinking. Bill ryan, you are way ahead of most in what you are endeavoring to create with project avalon. From what I have seen of late within the Avalon forum, is just like what has happened to Earth, it started out pure and good intentioned, then the people came, viruses and ego took over and turned it into something that it was not created to be, that is emotionally saddening to my being.

Maybe Avalon needs to go into a transition or simply go to sleep for a while and wait for the storms to pass. :(

[grapevine]

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Can I use the word "nuggetry here", or is it just Sid who is banned?

Please do make sure you read all the posts in this thread. That was not why he was asked to leave.

This may help! :)

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35969-Question-about-forum-moderation&p=370393&viewfull=1#post370393

The thing is though, Bill, that quite a lot of us would like Rob to come back, and Lily (and Manny too). Can there be an amnesty at all? There COULD be, if you would please reconsider. Please ....?

[Ultima Thule]

In regards to moderation, just a few thoughts in the spirit of hockey:

What I gather is that the moderation is agreed to be carried on in the context of the forum guidelines. In hockey-terms that would be the set of rules that would for example be agreed upon, so that a game of hockey is to played by for example "sunday hockey" rules with no tackling and keeping sticks low, setting the context for the moderation i.e. the judges. When the original players during a period of time change to others that prefer NHL over sunday hockey, and begin tackling and/or the original players develope a will to start tackling, is it okay or to be moderated? It could still be considered to be okay in a greater context of sports/hockey, but going well outside the context originally laid out for that particular game. By this process we can find ourselves in a situation where the judges can be viewed as limiting the game too much from the pov of the player expecting NHL rules with full tackling, when in fact the judges strive to uphold the originally agreed upon sunday-hockey -guidelines.

Even though I am always willing to find anything in favor of every person, there is only so much one can do. During the brief time I spent as a mod, it became evident to me, in the same hockey-context, that being a "judge", you can´t be liked by all. And the players who like or dislike you change on a daily basis, in regards to what was the latest call to a matter they find important. That, in my opinion is the name of the game and that is something that just is. However much one would be willing to find things in favor of a player, even trying to look through the fingers to benefit the whole of the game, but he cross-checks in front of your eyes, in the context of what is agreed in that particular games guidelines, he is going to be penalized. If you call it, you are disliked by some, if you don´t call it, you are disliked by others.

We humans are somewhat limited and usually refer to a written guideline and the spirit of it, to do the best we can. Avalon is a place where there are players from all over the world and from all contexts. I can´t think of much improvement to the basic idea of forum guidelines, as one philosopher once said - I am not going to embarrass myself by trying to recall his name - my phrasing:"Until you can present me with a better system, I will stick to the old one, even with the flaws in it." A flawed system, which I guess all systems in the end are, is better than no-system. Having said that, I personally do accept and welcome the ideal of some kind of a holographic society and am willing to entertain the idea that given time we humans can evolve into creating something like that and I guess that these kinds of turbulences that we have had of late, are signs of this new system starting to be manifested, but also see it as a potentially quite slow process with lots of hits and misses to come humanity-wide , while in essence traveling from a system to no-system, in say 5-50000 years? This would be the thread to brainstorm in.

UT

[GCS1103]

In regards to moderation, just a few thoughts in the spirit of hockey:

What I gather is that the moderation is agreed to be carried on in the context of the forum guidelines. In hockey-terms that would be the set of rules that would for example be agreed upon, so that a game of hockey is to played by for example "sunday hockey" rules with no tackling and keeping sticks low, setting the context for the moderation i.e. the judges. When the original players during a period of time change to others that prefer NHL over sunday hockey, and begin tackling and/or the original players develope a will to start tackling, is it okay or to be moderated? It could still be considered to be okay in a greater context of sports/hockey, but going well outside the context originally laid out for that particular game. By this process we can find ourselves in a situation where the judges can be viewed as limiting the game too much from the pov of the player expecting NHL rules with full tackling, when in fact the judges strive to uphold the originally agreed upon sunday-hockey -guidelines.

Even though I am always willing to find anything in favor of every person, there is only so much one can do. During the brief time I spent as a mod, it became evident to me, in the same hockey-context, that being a "judge", you can´t be liked by all. And the players who like or dislike you change on a daily basis, in regards to what was the latest call to a matter they find important. That, in my opinion is the name of the game and that is something that just is. However much one would be willing to find things in favor of a player, even trying to look through the fingers to benefit the whole of the game, but he cross-checks in front of your eyes, in the context of what is agreed in that particular games guidelines, he is going to be penalized. If you call it, you are disliked by some, if you don´t call it, you are disliked by others.

We humans are somewhat limited and usually refer to a written guideline and the spirit of it, to do the best we can. Avalon is a place where there are players from all over the world and from all contexts. I can´t think of much improvement to the basic idea of forum guidelines, as one philosopher once said - I am not going to embarrass myself by trying to recall his name - my phrasing:"Until you can present me with a better system, I will stick to the old one, even with the flaws in it." A flawed system, which I guess all systems in the end are, is better than no-system. Having said that, I personally do accept and welcome the ideal of some kind of a holographic society and am willing to entertain the idea that given time we humans can evolve into creating something like that and I guess that these kinds of turbulences that we have had of late, are signs of this new system starting to be manifested, but also see it as a potentially quite slow process with lots of hits and misses to come humanity-wide , while in essence traveling from a system to no-system, in say 5-50000 years? This would be the thread to brainstorm in.

UT

I like your analogy, Ultima Thule. If I may, let me expand a bit on that analogy.

It is true, in sports (to use your example) that there are a set of rules that all must adhere to. If the players deviate from the rules, there are penalties ie.-exclusion from the game that night; maybe a one week exclusion, etc. But never does a top player get excluded "for life" for "mouthing off". The reason being- without the key player, the team suffers, the team loses, the team's spirit is broken. Not to mention what it does to the owners of that team.

Then we have another issue, in your analogy- what happens when one of the coaches, or two of the coaches don't care for the key hockey player? Coaches are a necessity for the sport, but they're also human. Being human, coaches have their pet players and they also have players that are independant and don't take kindly to authority. What happens? The coaches get together and may suspend a player without pay, they may put him on leave. Do they ban him for life? Never. Why? Because many of the fans are there to see the star player. The star player is bringing in the money (you can call them donations, if you want) and the fans.

Finally, there is the issue of checks and balances. Is there such a system in avalon's management team? Or is it one person's call and the "assistant coaches" just go along, to get along? Perhaps it would be helpful to all of us here, or if that makes some members uncomfortable to be put into this group, I will ask you this on my behalf only- exactly how does the process work when it is decided that someone is banned for life. (a very egotistical statement, in my opinion). Normally I would say, it's none of my business; however, that little "donate" button on top of the page, that I have pushed many times, gives me the right to ask this question. If Bill's team believes it doesn't give me this right, then I will respect their decision not to discuss it and they will have to respect my decision to never again touch the "donate" button.

Are these fair questions, Ultima Thule?

[Ultima Thule]

Well going along with the analogy, no player in here is ever put out of a career in sports for life, as Avalon would then equal a team and not the whole discipline of a sport-modality. A player moving or moved on to another team would be the equal. Even the greatest star might be sold overnight and excel tomorrow in another team. I´m going into more and more hypothetical here, but when a coach is building a team, he/she is not necessarily looking at stats of scored goals, assists etc. as being what counts, but would be looking to find players to create the most coherent combination of players. Now that team might not look too strong statistically, but might amount to more than the most skillful individuals might amount to as a whole. Coaches are interested to find the suitable players. Compare to Lake Placid in hockey.

In terms of checks and balances, what you describe and expect is exactly what the mods are doing 24/7, there is not one thing that hasn´t been turned over to look at from all the possible angles that they can think of, reviewed and reviewed again constantly, with "what-ifs?", "can we consider this´s?", "have we thought of thats?" and "can we think of it this ways´s?" flying around, until fingers are bleeding from all the typing and eyes are bloodshot. Well, I exaggerated about the fingers bleeding, but bloodshot eyes not.

And in regards to questions being fair, I guess they are and I have tried to answer them. However the part of directing them at me and at the same time loading them with money in regards of Avalon in general wasn´t imo, but it´s okay, I don´t mind it personally.


UT

[jorr lundstrom]

Wot about a change in the way moderation is done? As we all know by now how

much secrecy have been used to destroy our world, could it not be about time that

moderation on Avalon in handled in the open, ie in total transparency. If, as is

stated everything is handled in a proper way, I really cant see why it cant be

handled in the open. So, my suggestion is, no more moderation via PMs.


http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/babaji9.jpg

[Ultima Thule]

@ Jorr - I figure that blowing all things open for everybody to see, would really serve no meaningful purpose, but it would easily quadruple the threads and posts in Avalon in no-time, demanding more and more mod-personnell to manage it all, and from there on, expanding exponentially making it ever harder to find a thread that would be of significance. I don´t believe it could be manageable just from a practical point of view. I tried to address the general image of how things are from my point of view earlier in this thread, page 7, I think. I tried to point out among many things that every person here can think to themselves:"Would I misuse my "powers" if I were asked to be a mod?" 100%(I hope) would answer, "never!" The mods are just like you or me in that manner - or not exactly like me, I didn´t have the thick skin for the job ... and some of them are women ... and come to think of it, I seem to recall a pythonic figure with legs over there ;-)

Oh, just to make it clear, I am your Joe Average in regards to moderating and this forum in general, and can and will not pretend to have any say as to how things are moderated or how the mechanism could be developed, so I don´t mean to blow your idea off by saying it is unmanageable, neither do I wan´t to present that as something that is an opinion of mods or to be speaking on behalf of them, that is just my personal honest opinion.

UT

[MMA_Fan]

The mods do a great job - always have.
You could see what would happen with Lily and Sid a mile off. Like a pair of kids trying to see how far they could push it.

[GCS1103]

Well going along with the analogy, no player in here is ever put out of a career in sports for life, as Avalon would then equal a team and not the whole discipline of a sport-modality. A player moving or moved on to another team would be the equal. Even the greatest star might be sold overnight and excel tomorrow in another team. I´m going into more and more hypothetical here, but when a coach is building a team, he/she is not necessarily looking at stats of scored goals, assists etc. as being what counts, but would be looking to find players to create the most coherent combination of players. Now that team might not look too strong statistically, but might amount to more than the most skillful individuals might amount to as a whole. Coaches are interested to find the suitable players. Compare to Lake Placid in hockey.

In terms of checks and balances, what you describe and expect is exactly what the mods are doing 24/7, there is not one thing that hasn´t been turned over to look at from all the possible angles that they can think of, reviewed and reviewed again constantly, with "what-ifs?", "can we consider this´s?", "have we thought of thats?" and "can we think of it this ways´s?" flying around, until fingers are bleeding from all the typing and eyes are bloodshot. Well, I exaggerated about the fingers bleeding, but bloodshot eyes not.

And in regards to questions being fair, I guess they are and I have tried to answer them. However the part of directing them at me and at the same time loading them with money in regards of Avalon in general wasn´t imo, but it´s okay, I don´t mind it personally.


UT
It wasn't meant to be personal and I apologize if you thought it was. My frustration is not directed at you.

[onawah]

There were several posts from various members in the several threads that have come about because of the LS controversy which complained of infractions against the rules by the Mods, such as being put on vacation without warning for minor offenses, etc.
If true, these kinds of things can build up a lot of resentment over time, and if not resolved, can lead to other problems such as loss of respect for the Mods.
I suggest an ongoing thread where these kinds of issues can be dealt with and seen by all members (not necessarily guests) as they arise.
This would help to alleviate some of the anger that has built up over time, assure members that the Mods are also adhering to the rules, and prevent any future infractions on the part of the Mods.
And if the accusations and complaints against the Mods about infractions are untrue, obfuscations, exaggerations or whatever, it would probably help to clear the air if the particular instances in question were discussed.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

If you want to see what Avalon would look like if moderation were handled differently, simply look at other sites on the net. There are plenty of examples.

[jorr lundstrom]

If you want to see what Avalon would look like if moderation were handled differently, simply look at other sites on the net. There are plenty of examples.

Yes, thank you. I already know there are sites that look really good with a different moderation.

[ThePythonicCow]

Then we have another issue, in your analogy- what happens when one of the coaches, or two of the coaches don't care for the key hockey player? Coaches are a necessity for the sport, but they're also human. Being human, coaches have their pet players and they also have players that are independant and don't take kindly to authority. What happens? The coaches get together and may suspend a player without pay, they may put him on leave. Do they ban him for life? Never. Why? Because many of the fans are there to see the star player. The star player is bringing in the money (you can call them donations, if you want) and the fans.

I'd rather ask, Goldie, what happens when one of the top players, on suspension for a week, hates the coaches and riles up all his friends on the team against the coaching staff .. when further this is not the first time and no sign of the player's behavior changing is evident.

What happens then is that player is likely playing for another team next week. He's not permanently banned from the league ... rather he's just not playing for the same team anymore.

It's not like we mods just don't like someone ... it's that we choose to counter destructive forces aimed against this forum, its members or (especially in this case) its moderators (who are, if I may remind you, also members.) The resulting conflict is a harmful distraction to this forum and its members.

Those members, whomever they may be, who are especially here to watch "star player" Lord Sidious in action can be expected, reasonably so, to change their support to the new team that benefits from his rather substantial energy.

[jorr lundstrom]

Ultima Thule wrote:


I think. I tried to point out among many things that every person here can think to themselves:"Would I misuse my "powers" if I were asked to be a mod?" 100%(I hope) would answer, "never!"

Im convinced that almost 100% would answer never. I also believe that most people

believe themselves to be the way they think about themselves. But when secresy if a

factor I dont trust people. Thats why I dont collect secrets myself.


From 2003- 2005 I worked at Fortum refinery in Kilpilahti in Finland.

Over 200 poisonous substances were handled there. On many occasions

I saw workers by the help of steam and hot water and in other ways

flushing poisonous substances into the soil coverring the peninsula. If this

had become common knowledge it could have led to expensive consequenses

and maybe interruptions in the production on the refinery. So instead they hid

the poisons in the soil and over time of course making the whole peninsula toxic.

So the workers had a common secret about how to hide their mistakes.

They were just ordinary workers trying to feed their families. Just wanna say that

secrets are just a way to fool oneself over time.

[ThePythonicCow]

Announcement -- the following two threads discussing the departure of Lord Sidious are reopen.

The Lord Sidious controversy (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36092-The-Lord-Sidious-controversy&p=378633&viewfull=1#post378633)
Petition to request the reinstatement of Lord Sidious (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36467-Petition-to-request-the-reinstatement-of-Lord-Sidious&p=378632&viewfull=1#post378632)
Please make an effort to post on the thread pertaining to your topic :)

:focus:

[Dawn]

Ok, re-opening this thread now.

Posts pertaining to LS over the past few days have been moved here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36092-The-Lord-Sidious-controversy&p=370701&viewfull=1#post370701

Please use this thread to post questions and concerns about moderation as originally intended. Thank You

[kathymarie]

What in the world is happening here? I'm away from Avalon for a few weeks...well, maybe months...I return and ?????? No Lord Sid, no Fred S., no Pie'n'eal? Who else is gone...I'm afraid to to check out the membership list.

[kathymarie]

...ok....I've been reading and catching up on things....:(