Shamanism – Getting to Know the Unknown

[Mark]

Getting back in touch with Gaia seems to be the path to take now for many, especially those of us in the West who have been divorced from nature through out jobs, through our urban lifestyles and through our cultural propensity to seek entertainment through the mass media which necessitates a cave-dwelling mentality.

Is it possible for people of the West to return to nature? Is it too late? Is shamanism the type of esotericism that is best left to indigenous cultures or does it have a place in the technological West?

Shamanism – Getting to Know the Unknown (http://www.universitytimes.ie/?p=7288)

Ecstasy, myth, rituals, transcendence, ceremonial dance, contacting the spiritual world and the sound of drums and shakers- Shamanism is one of the oldest healing and spiritual practices dating back 50,000 years. It is based around the belief that shamans are messengers between the human world and the spiritual world.

The shaman uses ecstatic techniques to enter an altered state of consciousness at will and makes a conscious choice to travel to another reality which is out of space and time. In the beliefs the altered reality consists out of three layers: the lower world, the middle world and the upper world. The realities are inhabited by helping spirits which the Shaman contacts. With the help of these spirit guides the shaman brings back information and healing and is able to effect changes in ordinary reality.

Although one of the oldest practices a lot of people nowadays still incorporate it into their lives.

According to Brian Butler, a lay practitioner of shamanism, “to take a journey into an alternate reality and to come back with new found wisdom is fascinating to a lot of people”.

“A shaman is a mediator between the spiritual world and the real world. Anyone who is studying shamanism or is practicing shamanism in any way is searching to get in touch with their sub-conscious, their spiritual side, the spiritual side of the world. Anything that is going to be learned in a non-ordinary state of consciousness, while you are trying to communicate with the spiritual side of the world is going to be implemented in your day to day life, because it will have had such a huge impact on you, “Brian stated.

Read more here ... (http://www.universitytimes.ie/?p=7288)

[STATIC]

No it is not to late,
But lets not forget what a shaman really does.
Real shamans us a psychedelic as a vehicle to travel to the spirit realms.
This is why we have a problem in Western society. It has been made illegal to take part in such practices.
We have been banned from one of the most important aspects of our being; The exploration of our own consciousness.
As Graham Hancock says.... If we do not have sovereignty over our own consciousness than we do not have sovereignty over anything.

[Carmen]

Not all shamans use drugs to enable them to access the spiritual realm.

[Mark]

True, as Don Juan told Casteneda, the drugs can help you at first, but the goal is to move beyond them and be able to do it naturally. A lot of people got to alternate states of consciousness using drugs, mescaline, peyote, acid, for a long time, but those trips were often messed up. Getting there using your own psychic resources might take a longer time to cultivate but it would seem to be worthwhile, as your achievement would match your experience and wisdom and you wouldn't be like a 'babe in the woods', so to speak, dropped into a hell dimension with no idea how you got there, thinking it's just a 'hallucination'. There are so many stories of all those who have lost their minds doing drugs and having bad trips.

Thinking about that in the context of shamanism and the existence of other planes of existence makes such forays into the unknown a lot more serious than having a good time with your friends on Saturday night. Used in the context of an ancient tradition, though, the natural hallucinigens can produce a useful experience best translated by those with many centuries of experience.

[STATIC]

Rahkyt,
I wasn't suggesting that we all go out tripping on a saturday night... :)
In many places where shamanism has been practiced for eons, often the whole village will take part in these ceremonies.


dropped into a hell dimension with no idea how you got there, thinking it's just a 'hallucination

This wouldn't be the case, when it is being done under the supervision of a shaman,


There are so many stories of all those who have lost their minds doing drugs and having bad trips.

Yes, and many have lost there minds without taking any sort of drug.

Yes, shamans have a lot of experience and knowledge. That is the whole point really. They have been systematically eradicated from our world.

[STATIC]

Rakyt,
You also quoted Don Juan Casteneda...
Check this article out...
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/RosalesO1.php?p=1

:)

[Mark]

Hey Static, I wasn't saying that you were implying those things, I was just speaking in general on the topic and raising a few other points to contextualize the discussion a bit.


Yes, shamans have a lot of experience and knowledge. That is the whole point really. They have been systematically eradicated from our world.

I agree with this without qualification. But I think that humans have a way of manifesting that which has been suppressed by external forces. I wonder if it is possible for a new sort of shamanism to arise in the absence of old forms of, let's say, european indigenous shamanism? There remains a thread of shamaism in all cultures, even those that have been overwhelmed by the technological age of the west. The African-American community has them in the form of Vodun, diasporic African and Latins in the form of Santeria, Candomble. Europe in the form of Wicca or Druidism, or even Satanism, if Shamanism is really referring to an active engagement and interaction with other dimensional realities and the entities that reside therein.

How would such a world look, today? A digital interaction with ultra-dimensional entities? Cyber-covens of Wiccans meditating and employing Hindu mantras and indigenous American herbalism to achieve certain ends both personally and collectively?

I'm thinking of the integration of the cultures of the entire world in order, perhaps, to return to the source of original causation, at least insofar as human interaction with other realities is concerned.

[STATIC]

very interesting...
I wonder what role shamanism will play in our near future?
With all the changes in progress right now, I would love to be able to speak with one, to be able to translate there perspective into a more westernized understanding.

[Mark]

Hey Static, thanks for the article. Some interesting points:


Fueled by the counterculture influence of the 1960s, icons such as Timothy Leary, Carlos Castaneda, Jim Morrison, and Hunter S. Thompson glamorized the quest for immortal truth, defined by native indigenous healers or shamans. Yet, the truth would come at a great cost, as facts were oft-times distorted or entire accounts of ethnographies fabricated. In fact, some of the most important fieldwork in anthropology had been done 40 years prior by Bronisław Malinowski, Richard Schultes, and other scholars that few would know outside university circles.

I know this is referring in large part to Casteneda. Lot of people in the Ivory Tower believe he made Don Juan up and his experiences as well. That he went to libraries and found different esoteric traditions and put them all together to create the belief system that he attributes to Don Juan in his books. I've got this great big book called "The Don Juan Papers (http://www.newvision-psychic.com/bookshelf/donjuanpapers.html)" that collects all of these. I read some chapters into it before putting it down and forming my own conclusions that they were a bunch of academic haters. The denial that Don Juan represented the Yaqui traditions, I think, were more serious. But, if Don Juan was what and who Casteneda said he was, then he was a Toltec warrior and Yaqui was only his ethnicity. Much like, for example, I am African American, but I integrate knowledge from many traditions. You might say the same about yourself.

At a certain point, knowledge seekers from all traditions approximate each other in that they each approach that basic and fundamental reality, so all Paths eventually converge into One, which, in my view, is how all traditions could lead to a resurgence of what we might call "Elemental Shamanism", a re-awakening of some collective human capacity for reconnection with the earth-spirit and each other.


Which brings us back to the wolfsbane of the Plastic shamans, that there is no substitute for anthropological research and fieldwork.

For me, the above quote represents the entire purpose and underlying reason for the article. To decry any alternative form of research and keep people toeing the line of the "official" scientific and "objective" research paradigm, which is terribly flawed and inadequate in the context of a quantum multiverse where the observer is the observed and there is no separation between any phenomena, which is the reality within which we truly reside and, therefore, no such thing as objectivity. This is not to say that scientific research and the scientific method do not work, as far as they go. But now, we need to go further.

While the rest of the article, imho, has validity, he does great research, I don't feel it was necessary for him to trash those who came before him for the work they did and that, in all probability, brought him to the field and his particular area of research expertise in the first place. I hate it when that happens. LOL


These are the Elemental Shamans. These healers give us the modern and true answers to fictionalized accounts provided by wayward authors. By meticulous research, we determine that there is no need for cultural misappropriation or theft of native indigenous insight. There is no necessity to make up accounts. To learn, all we must do is ask. To discover, we must explore. But the essence will always come back to fieldwork.

This, I also agree with without qualification. Fieldwork is mandatory, hands on or soul on experience is the only way to do so, and yet, this is the same experiential immersion that the Ivory Tower sought to castigate Casteneda for. Not mentioned in the article, but that's fine. I find that his final conclusion:


Evolution is within us, the power is within us, to change our world. Its in the palm of our hands. Its found in the beauty of our speech and thought. The evolution of humanity is determined by the neuroplasticity of our brains, perhaps even already pre-encoded in our DNA. [16] But shamans have already been teaching us, these profound and holy truths, for thousands and thousands of years.

Agrees in spirit with everything that Casteneda found to be true as well. Regarding your point about shamanism in our near future, I think that we will see the rise of a new form of shamanism, are actually in the midst of this transformation now. It's like, when a foreign object invades the body, white blood cells come to the fore to protect the entire system. Gaia is threatened, in large part by us, and, within the human body, antibodies are being formed to combat the infection. Those antibodies can in part be the awakening of individuals who are able to connect with Gaia and the other realms utilizing new rituals that approximate the old, resulting in the same thing, the re-connection of individuals with their divine nature and the world around us.

[Mike]

always been fascinated with Shamanism, particularly the concept of 'soul retrieval'.

there was a point in my life where i thought i might actually need this service, but the shamans (alleged?) i spoke to were very reticent to perform it.

it's my understanding that this is a massive undertaking by any shaman, from the newly initiated to the most experienced.

do we have any shamans here on Avalon, i wonder?

[Mark]

I'd imagine that there is a lot that goes into it. I did sweat lodges for years with an Apache shaman and teacher. He was a nice guy, who might seem to have had a polite and kind of quiet demeanor, but he was solid as a rock. He was a sun-dancer. The scars he had on him were intense. The people who would come to the sweats were generally known to us, but we shared the lodge with another guy who did sweats in the mexican tradition, which included aspects of christianity. Sometimes strangers would come to those sweats and the shaman would instruct us on who sits beside who and he would determine the medicine to be used in the sweat generally upon the state of the collective, all those who were at the sweat. If there was someone there who was a drug addict, it was always going to be an intense sweat and I saw many people jump and run out during the first darkness, often right when the water was poured on the grandmothers. Others could be talked down, if they would lay down and embrace the earth, where it was cool. That kind of work is intense enough, I imagine that doing soul-retrieval would take quite a bit more intimate knowledge of the person who desires it by the shaman.

[spiritguide]

By penetrating our conscious mind we access our subconscious mind which is tuned into the universal mind where there are no boundaries in time and space. In this sense all are potential shamans. IMHO

:peace:

[Mark]

IMHO

I think your opinion is right on point, to the extent that all ensouled beings can access that potentiality through their own efforts. How many will rise to that potential? Those who can, meaning, those who can sieve through the dross of everyday consciousness and seek the Divine within. I think that is only a small subset of the whole, karmically speaking. Beyond that? Beyond the ethereal control system's manipulation of incarnation, accessing the fundamental spirit that animates us all during encapsulation within the flesh, there is no qualification. We are all spirits on a human journey as so many have said.

I wonder if it is so that we incarnate for lessons? Or is it truly just a farm and we're the meat-animals of higher-dimensional Pastoralists? I read something not too long ago about someone who did an Ayahuasca journey and met some lizard that confirmed the dangerous nature of other dimensions. I suppose there is no reason to think otherwise if things down here are a microcosm of what is above, and macrocosm of what is below.

[STATIC]

I read something not too long ago about someone who did an Ayahuasca journey and met some lizard that confirmed the dangerous nature of other dimensions. I suppose there is no reason to think otherwise if things down here are a microcosm of what is above, and macrocosm of what is below

I remember Graham Hancock describing an Ayahuasca experience he had in the Amazon where he talked to one of these entities. He said that it told him that they were our creators.
Afterwards, he asked the shaman weather there was any truth to what he was told. The Shaman replied laughing out loud... No, they are all liars. :)

[spiritguide]

The universe will react positively if we are of such and negative the same. If we think of ourselves as food then the universe will oblige, if we think of ourselves as special beings then you will be destined accordingly. IMHO

:peace:

[Jenci]

By penetrating our conscious mind we access our subconscious mind which is tuned into the universal mind where there are no boundaries in time and space. In this sense all are potential shamans. IMHO

:peace:


How very true and very simple.

It's so simple - that we are all That - that very few can believe it.

Jeanette

[Mark]

The Shaman replied laughing out loud... No, they are all liars. :)

Great point. :) I wonder if, by creation, the being was implying that they created the human soul, not the human body, as if they were the ultimate form of Divinity? And the shaman, in turn and naturally, was speaking of the human soul, not necessarily the human body as it currently exists? John Lash says that the Archons created the lie also about the Annunaki to manipulate human society's evolution. That they never were able to manipulate human genetics.


The universe will react positively if we are of such and negative the same. If we think of ourselves as food then the universe will oblige, if we think of ourselves as special beings then you will be destined accordingly. IMHO

LOL Food can be special too. ;) There are some things I like and other things I don't. It's deeper than that construction, even if it can be said relatively simply. So positive and negative can be seen to be relative to your perspective and how you interpret reality. It's like people who read all the stuff about the world and the PTW and the conspiracies and look at all of the wars and the inequalities and such and who don't have a negative outlook, are they being negative just because they research and talk about the issues? Then there are those who speak on the same topics but who preach gloom and doom and are fearful. Two different perspectives on the same topics that can be perceived, overall, as being negative.

I think the Universe reacts positively toward those who are aware of the reality, who seek knowledge, but who don't let fear guide them. An easy but important distinction.

[NancyV]

We can adapt shamanism using our own personally unique power rituals creating a new shamanism, in my opinion. My experience is that no matter what rules a ritual has it is always more powerful if I change it when I get a feeling that something works better for me. If that means ignoring some or most of the sage advice of shamans or gurus and the set rules of a ritual or meditation, so be it. I've always gone with my own inner knowledge of what seems correct to me. I can only feel this when I'm doing it as it's not an intellectual process.... it's a knowing that comes upon you as you feel the energies.

Starting in the late 60's I became fascinated with altered states and spirit worlds. I experimented with the usual drugs; peyote, marijuana, LSD, mushrooms, mescaline, psilocybin, hashish, etc. for about 5 years. Each type of drug produced many intense experiences and at the same time I was reading all of Castaneda's books and many others on the subject. I also spent about 3 years total living in Mexico and have traveled to many of the Mayan and Toltec ruins, also the Inca sites in Peru. During those years I had many experiences of seeing another time, probably the past although it could have been other time lines. When I was at a power spot these experiences would always happen and without taking any drugs. Perhaps I developed the ability because of using drugs and found later that I didn't need drugs.

Whether or not Castaneda's experiences were literally true or not is immaterial to me. He obviously had either many of the experiences or gained the knowledge in SOME way because I have experienced many of the things he wrote about...and some of them were very scary and uncomfortable. Contacting entities from lower dimensions close to the earth or the realms of the "dead" is, in my opinion, a lower vibrational experience. Certainly it is fascinating and makes your life a less ordinary and magical one. However I eventually came to prefer leaving my body and travelling on other dimensions completely outside of any earth influence. These non earth influence dimensions can also be scary and beings still manipulate other beings until you get to much higher vibrational dimensions. Shamans and those who communicate with entities that hang around the earth need to know how to protect themselves from the influence of the entities because they love to manipulate and influence us. You either develop the power to remain free of their influence or you may become quite unbalanced (crazy).

Having had both experiences of earth magic and other dimensional travels, which felt to me to have absolutely nothing to do with this earth experience, it seems like it was a natural progression for me to learn about our potential here on earth and then to learn that it is a very tiny and localized experience when considering the levels we can reach when we leave all influence of earth behind. This would be beyond the astral, as much of the lower astral realms are energetically encompassing the planet. When I went beyond the astral the earth influence, memories, concerns, etc. was gone.

While I greatly appreciate Shamans of all cultures and think they serve a valuable purpose within their cultures, I would personally aspire to avoid being stuck in an earth-centric practice of any kind. I think we tend to get stuck often, believing we have found "the" answer or "the" highest practice. I tend to consider these practices more as a hobby. I still love my crystals and tarot, etc. But there is always something else awaiting us if we choose to expand to receive it. It is a journey. The path we take is as valuable as the levels we attain until we find out eventually that none of it is really higher or lower, greater or lesser, positive or negative ....since it is all One.

[spiritguide]

Universal law vibrates, vibrate light you get colors, vibrate atoms you get solids, vibrate solids you get sound etc. Languages are made up of letters that are but symbols when uttered create sound vibrations and put together they make words and different vibrations. We communicate with vibrations and they emit feelings that we discerne. Seek out and hear universal vibrations in all. IMHO

:peace:

Hearing is feeling vibration.

[geoff]

Whether or not Castaneda's experiences were literally true or not is immaterial to me. He obviously had either many of the experiences or gained the knowledge in SOME way because I have experienced many of the things he wrote about.

Thats exactly how i feel about Castaneda. When I was seventeen my journey of discovery began and the key for me that opened the door was magic mushrooms [psilocybin]. I only tried them a few times because I quickly realised that you didn't really need them, and saw what happened to my friends who did not keep grounded, not nice! Anyway, at that time my life was full of sychronicities it seemed that i would have an experience and then find a book or piece of knowledge, that would explain or help me understand it. This was very important to me because it would validate the experience; if it had been the other way round then i would have been more sceptical. I began to create my own vocabulary to describe this new world. Then by coincidence I was given a copy of 'a seperate reality' by Carlos Castaneda, I couldn't believe it, there was my world being described by some one else. The only negative thing was that I then adopted Castaneda's vocabulary, and forgot my own with time. The thing about Castaneda is that he describes things that I have seen in 4d not astral, although sometimes the description is slightly different, that I have never read or seen described in any other esoteric literature, especially when he describes the energy body, the aura by comparison is a lame word, it doesn't come close to describing anything that I've seen, only perhaps the etheric aura. I recently brought 'The way of the shaman' by Michael Harner who refers to Castaneda quite a lot through out; I tried one of the exercises without the drums and it was pretty powerful and fun. I live alone and have often thought of joining a shaman group to see what it would be like to experience some of these things in a group, it must be pretty powerful.

[astrid]

You don't have to use drugs/ plant medicines, to access altered states
Modern day shamanic practitioners - this is the term
used by non-indigenous shaman use drumming and
rattling .
Michael Harner has been single handedly responsible
for bringing the "the shamanic method" to the west.
His foundation can be found here ..http://shamanism.org

He is now in his 80's and very well respected in this
field , both in the west and with the indigenous where
first learnt himself . His foundation has very ethical
and thorough teaching methods.

The shamanic method is the "path of direct revelation"
your spirit helpers are your teachers . The western
trained and indigenous Shaman when bought together
as has happened through the foundation both had the
same skill set. Which is not hard to understand when you
learn that your teachers are actually your spirit guides
themselves .

The core shamanic method is based around the
technique know as journeying . Most people have the
Ability to do this , drumming is he easiest way to do it.
It puts your brain into a theta state.
Soul retrieval is one of the core healing modalities
in shamanism and no it's not hard for a trained
practitioner. It works especially well for trauma
and PTSD . Parts of our essence leaves the body
through trauma , this is actually a survival mechanism

I am studying myself under the foundation, and have
also recently had soul retrieval sessions with a very
experienced western practitioner with profound
results.

Sandra Ingerman, Hank Wesselman , Tom Cowan
are other names you might want to look up.
All FFS trained , see above link. Sandra also has list
of western practitioners on her site.

Hank , who was my first teacher on this
path is also a paleoanthropologist who has had much
contact with indigenous shaman. He was telling me
that is was only the "lower shaman" that used drugs
the really good ones didn't need drugs they used
drumming , rattling , chanting even dance.

He has an issue with Graham Hancock, because
he doesn't talk about the other ways to enter these
states, and for some drug use has dangerous
side effects.

[geoff]

Thanxs for the link

[STATIC]

I am studying myself under the foundation, and have
also recently had soul retrieval sessions with a very
experienced western practitioner with profound
results.


Hi astrid,
I have not heard much about this.
Do you think you could share your experience?
Thanks :)

[music]

Rahkyt, I once played music with a traditional Ghanaian drummer, and you might be interested in this quote from him one night after a gig: "Everyone loves a melody, something to sing, words to weave over music, but remove the vocal and we can still dance. We love the treble instruments, guitars, keyboards, but remove the treble and we can still dance. We love the rumble of the bass, the way it moves the inside of us, but remove the bass and we can still dance. All else is nothing more than a way to entice us to listen to the magic of the drum."

[DNA]

Rakyt,
You also quoted Don Juan Casteneda...
Check this article out...
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/RosalesO1.php?p=1

:)

I've read most of the detractors out there. Richard Demille made a career out of detracting Castaneda, Jay Courtney Fikes made a pretty penny at it as well.
I even went so far as to aquire the out of print,,,and expensive work said to be the source of Castaneda's "plagerism".

I was more convinced then ever after having read all of this stuff that Castaneda was legit.
Time and time again, the folks interviewed by the debunkers who knew Castaneda, proffesors from UCLA, friends, spurned lovers, all professed to Castaneda taking long trips to Mexico and noticing "profound" changes in him upon his return.
Further, the work by Peter Furst and his anthropological studies with the Huichol is nothing even remotely close to what Castaneda talks about in his books.

I will admit, I was prepared for the debunkers to have some data that would convince me that Castaneda made all this sh!t up when I started pursuing this line of thinking.
I was prepared to come to terms that Castaneda wrote a completely fictional narrative that some how worked anyway if you applied the techniques taught.
But this was not the case, after reading what the debunkers had presented I was more convinced than ever that Castaneda was legit.
These folks couldn't get over the Yaqui thing.
Castaneda was learning sorcery from a Yaqui informant, but this stuff had nothing to do with Yaqui culture and in my opinion, is information probably from the refugees of Atlantis who settled in the area and began the inexcpliciable cultures that anthropologists can't understand even today.

[DNA]

I read something not too long ago about someone who did an Ayahuasca journey and met some lizard that confirmed the dangerous nature of other dimensions. I suppose there is no reason to think otherwise if things down here are a microcosm of what is above, and macrocosm of what is below

I remember Graham Hancock describing an Ayahuasca experience he had in the Amazon where he talked to one of these entities. He said that it told him that they were our creators.
Afterwards, he asked the shaman weather there was any truth to what he was told. The Shaman replied laughing out loud... No, they are all liars. :)

I love Hancock, and he did in fact partake of the vine of truth, but I'm pretty sure your quoting Michael Harner there.

[mosquito]

Not all shamans use drugs to enable them to access the spiritual realm.

Shamans don't use "drugs", they use teacher plants, otherwise known as entheogens.

[music]

I read something not too long ago about someone who did an Ayahuasca journey and met some lizard that confirmed the dangerous nature of other dimensions. I suppose there is no reason to think otherwise if things down here are a microcosm of what is above, and macrocosm of what is below

I remember Graham Hancock describing an Ayahuasca experience he had in the Amazon where he talked to one of these entities. He said that it told him that they were our creators.
Afterwards, he asked the shaman weather there was any truth to what he was told. The Shaman replied laughing out loud... No, they are all liars. :)

I love Hancock, and he did in fact partake of the vine of truth, but I'm pretty sure your quoting Michael Harner there.

From my experience with the rope of the dead, the only dangers in higher dimensions are the ones we bring with us. I confronted a frightening entity, but upon standing my ground to it, it resolved itself back into me. Not quick enough to be a comfortable experience though :)

[modwiz]

Rakyt,
You also quoted Don Juan Casteneda...
Check this article out...
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/RosalesO1.php?p=1

:)

I've read most of the detractors out there. Richard Demille made a career out of detracting Castaneda, Jay Courtney Fikes made a pretty penny at it as well.
I even went so far as to aquire the out of print,,,and expensive work said to be the source of Castaneda's "plagerism".

I was more convinced then ever after having read all of this stuff that Castaneda was legit.
Time and time again, the folks interviewed by the debunkers who knew Castaneda, proffesors from UCLA, friends, spurned lovers, all professed to Castaneda taking long trips to Mexico and noticing "profound" changes in him upon his return.
Further, the work by Peter Furst and his anthropological studies with the Huichol is nothing even remotely close to what Castaneda talks about in his books.

I will admit, I was prepared for the debunkers to have some data that would convince me that Castaneda made all this sh!t up when I started pursuing this line of thinking.
I was prepared to come to terms that Castaneda wrote a completely fictional narrative that some how worked anyway if you applied the techniques taught.
But this was not the case, after reading what the debunkers had presented I was more convinced than ever that Castaneda was legit.
These folks couldn't get over the Yaqui thing.
Castaneda was learning sorcery from a Yaqui informant, but this stuff had nothing to do with Yaqui culture and in my opinion, is information probably from the refugees of Atlantis who settled in the area and began the inexcpliciable cultures that anthropologists can't understand even today.

You can tell the parasites. They throw sh!t instead of writing some. Punks with degrees. Creation is angelic and ripping down is demonic. By their fruits you will know them. The scales are off of our eyes, most of us can see these critters nowadays. They will not survive the light of day. Vampiric in nature they can only stand in the false glare of the spotlight.

[STATIC]

I read something not too long ago about someone who did an Ayahuasca journey and met some lizard that confirmed the dangerous nature of other dimensions. I suppose there is no reason to think otherwise if things down here are a microcosm of what is above, and macrocosm of what is below

I remember Graham Hancock describing an Ayahuasca experience he had in the Amazon where he talked to one of these entities. He said that it told him that they were our creators.
Afterwards, he asked the shaman weather there was any truth to what he was told. The Shaman replied laughing out loud... No, they are all liars. :)

I love Hancock, and he did in fact partake of the vine of truth, but I'm pretty sure your quoting Michael Harner there.

Maybe I heard Hancock quoting Harner.. lol
Sorry if I misquoted. :) I it was some time ago.
So much info and not quite enough hard drive space.

[astrid]

Not all shamans use drugs to enable them to access the spiritual realm.

Shamans don't use "drugs", they use teacher plants, otherwise known as entheogens.

Agreed, but my point is you don't have to partake in this practice of plant medicines in order to reach the states required to do this work.
This is what is not commonly understood.
One can do this in the comfort of their own home, and regularly, and safely rather than going to the Amazon, etc, to do this.
Plant medicines are extremely taxing on the body and you can't do it on a regular basis because of this,
some people cant tolerate them at all.
The point I'm trying to make here is there are alternatives that produce the same outcomes, and you can use them more often,
daily if needed. This info comes from practitioners that have been working in this field for over 30 years.

[music]

Not all shamans use drugs to enable them to access the spiritual realm.

Shamans don't use "drugs", they use teacher plants, otherwise known as entheogens.

Agreed, but my point is you don't have to partake in this practice of plant medicines in order to reach the states required to do this work.
This is what is not commonly understood.
One can do this in the comfort of their own home, and regularly, and safely rather than going to the Amazon, etc, to do this.
Plant medicines are extremely taxing on the body and you can't do it on a regular basis because of this,
some people cant tolerate them at all.
The point I'm trying to make here is there are alternatives that produce the same outcomes, and you can use them more often,
daily if needed. This info comes from practitioners that have been working in this field for over 30 years.

Plants provide a key to facilitate the opening of doors. Once we have been through the door, the key is no longer needed, unless we become so dulled by life that we forget the way. Be aware also that plants offer a way through the EM pollution we have surrounded ourselves with.

[ocean]

RE: soul retrieval....This is an intense experience that shamans do for people to become whole again. It can take the shaman into dangerous areas of spirit and emotion. The effects are far ranging and beneficial to the recipient. RE: phsycadelics....I was taught that if you could not do the work on your own without the help of a drug you are not called to the work. I have never used a drug plant or substance and have never had issues going into the places that were necessary.

[astrid]

@ Music, please read both my posts.
Plants are ONE way of opening these doorways.
Not everyone can tolerant these plants.
Some people are VERY drug sensitive.
I'm pushing this point as its irresponsible not too offer alternatives that might be SAFER for some.
We have a lot of viewers here.
I know what i speak of here, this is one of my areas of study, (long term).

On journeying, and soul retrieval.
It's not dangerous if you are trained properly,
yes there are alot of "nasties" out there, but you are trained how to journey safely.
You never journey alone, always with protection and guidance from your
spirit helpers who love you.

The training for soul retrieval is very intensive and much
more involved than simply journeying.
Bare in mind that in Shamanism, you are a "hollow bone" and very much being
"worked through" it is your spirit helpers that do most of the work, collect the soul parts, etc.
You are more the "bridge", that works between the worlds.

There are many ways people are " called " to this work.
Me i had a previous incarnation in this field.
Some people have visionary, mystical experiences, like in dreams.
Many people are draw to learn how to journey for self development,
it's the path of directly communing with your own guidance.
And they might find they have a real affinity for this work.
More people are wanting answers to the bigger questions,
to make the unseen "seen".
Personally i have travelled through many, many healing modalities,
and this is the one that has given me the most answers.

Shamanism addresses issues at the root cause, enabling healing
that modern medicine rarely comes close to reaching.
It's about working with the soul, the spirit of a person,
where all things manifest from to begin with ,
And it's the only healing modality that deals with trauma and abuse
fully and completely, and i can speak on this from personal experience.

[mosquito]

Astrid - Everything you say is valid, but MY point is that they ARE NOT drugs.This is one of those words used by the PTB to control people's thoughts and reactions.

[grapevine]

My experience of travelling to another dimension has been in astral state. Unfortunately my spiritual growth at the time did not match my astral capabilities and I was scared witless by the experience, which has unfortunately stayed with me. imo, the ability to travel to other dimensions is produced specifically by tuning into them, just as David Icke says when he talks about tuning into BBC and then switching over to SKY. However, one problem is that there is no "map" and therefore where you actually go is very hit and miss. I would love to know whether you can direct yourself somewhere specifically and how.

[Mark]

We can adapt shamanism using our own personally unique power rituals creating a new shamanism, in my opinion.

I agree. We are a genetic cellular database of many pools of intention and soul families and, as such, the ethnic groups of the past who created ceremonies specifically for them and their environments are a good primer and guide, but this is a different time and we come from different places. The Now is a summation of what was and the foundation of what will be, so what is must be new. Must be directly apropos to our condition and circumstances.


Starting in the late 60's I became fascinated with altered states and spirit worlds. I experimented with the usual drugs; peyote, marijuana, LSD, mushrooms, mescaline, psilocybin, hashish, etc. for about 5 years. Each type of drug produced many intense experiences and at the same time I was reading all of Castaneda's books and many others on the subject. I also spent about 3 years total living in Mexico and have traveled to many of the Mayan and Toltec ruins, also the Inca sites in Peru. During those years I had many experiences of seeing another time, probably the past although it could have been other time lines. When I was at a power spot these experiences would always happen and without taking any drugs. Perhaps I developed the ability because of using drugs and found later that I didn't need drugs.

Thank you so much for sharing your life experience. This is value, this is what this is all about. Building upon experience to create new perceptive markers as we move forward together. Not having ever been involved with hallucinogenic drugs (or entheogens :) ) I cannot directly relate, but I can take the experiences of others and use it to determine my own path, which is important.



While I greatly appreciate Shamans of all cultures and think they serve a valuable purpose within their cultures, I would personally aspire to avoid being stuck in an earth-centric practice of any kind. I think we tend to get stuck often, believing we have found "the" answer or "the" highest practice. I tend to consider these practices more as a hobby. I still love my crystals and tarot, etc. But there is always something else awaiting us if we choose to expand to receive it. It is a journey. The path we take is as valuable as the levels we attain until we find out eventually that none of it is really higher or lower, greater or lesser, positive or negative ....since it is all One.

Today I find myself curious as to the Oneness formulation that you speak of above. I assume you are speaking from the perspective of the ALL, since, down here on earth, the dichotomies exist. Or, do you believe - as I also asked someone else on another thread today - that those who take the path toward the negative down here in 3D are going to eventually end up in the same place as those who take the path toward the positive?


Thats exactly how i feel about Castaneda. When I was seventeen my journey of discovery began and the key for me that opened the door was magic mushrooms [psilocybin]. I only tried them a few times because I quickly realised that you didn't really need them, and saw what happened to my friends who did not keep grounded, not nice! Anyway, at that time my life was full of sychronicities it seemed that i would have an experience and then find a book or piece of knowledge, that would explain or help me understand it. This was very important to me because it would validate the experience; if it had been the other way round then i would have been more sceptical. I began to create my own vocabulary to describe this new world. Then by coincidence I was given a copy of 'a seperate reality' by Carlos Castaneda, I couldn't believe it, there was my world being described by some one else.

Thank you also, Geoff, for sharing your experiences. What happened to your friends who did not keep grounded? Casteneda's work was transformatory. I found him when I was 14.


The core shamanic method is based around the
technique know as journeying . Most people have the
Ability to do this , drumming is he easiest way to do it.
It puts your brain into a theta state.
Soul retrieval is one of the core healing modalities
in shamanism and no it's not hard for a trained
practitioner. It works especially well for trauma
and PTSD . Parts of our essence leaves the body
through trauma , this is actually a survival mechanism

I just listened to an interview with a "super-soldier" in another thread in this forum (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36554-Duncan-O--Finioan-vs-Richard-C.-Hoagland-and-wife) and he could probably use a bout of soul-retrieval. He was the victim of one of those alt programs where they create different personalities through pain. As I watched him it looks like he was still very disassociated. Duncan O'Finioan was his name but there are many, many others out there who have been through similar things as well as people in every walk of life. Shamans are much needed today. Psychiatry and medicine in general is not doing the job. It seems almost that they are hurting more than they are helping.


I am studying myself under the foundation, and have
also recently had soul retrieval sessions with a very
experienced western practitioner with profound
results.

Without necessarily going too deeply into personal details, could you please share some of the beneficial aspects of this soul retrieval process?


Rahkyt, I once played music with a traditional Ghanaian drummer, and you might be interested in this quote from him one night after a gig: "Everyone loves a melody, something to sing, words to weave over music, but remove the vocal and we can still dance. We love the treble instruments, guitars, keyboards, but remove the treble and we can still dance. We love the rumble of the bass, the way it moves the inside of us, but remove the bass and we can still dance. All else is nothing more than a way to entice us to listen to the magic of the drum."

Yes! I love the drum. LOL Great quote, I totally resonate. The beat and the way it can invoke altered states of consciousness is so mis-used today in modern music but its power is undeniable.


These folks couldn't get over the Yaqui thing.


Haterrrrrrrrrrrs. Ya know?! Seen it once, seen it a thousand times. The Ivory Tower is just another kind of mob.


From my experience with the rope of the dead, the only dangers in higher dimensions are the ones we bring with us. I confronted a frightening entity, but upon standing my ground to it, it resolved itself back into me. Not quick enough to be a comfortable experience though :)

Hm. I have a friend who does not believe there are any external higher dimensional or lower dimensional entities. She believes that they are all a part of our own psychic projection. She equates this with the idea of Oneness. By "resolving back into you", are you saying that it was a part of you on some other dimensional level, or that it just exited from your field of perception?


You can tell the parasites. They throw sh!t instead of writing some. Punks with degrees. Creation is angelic and ripping down is demonic. By their fruits you will know them. The scales are off of our eyes, most of us can see these critters nowadays. They will not survive the light of day. Vampiric in nature they can only stand in the false glare of the spotlight.

PREACH!!!!! :amen:


RE: soul retrieval....This is an intense experience that shamans do for people to become whole again. It can take the shaman into dangerous areas of spirit and emotion. The effects are far ranging and beneficial to the recipient. RE: phsycadelics....I was taught that if you could not do the work on your own without the help of a drug you are not called to the work. I have never used a drug plant or substance and have never had issues going into the places that were necessary.

Hi Ocean, so do you take from this that you are "called to do the work"? If so, have you reached out yet to help others? Do you have your own rituals and energetic methodologies that you have originated in order to accomplish the things that you do? It seems that you also are reflective of this arising of "elemental shamans".


My experience of travelling to another dimension has been in astral state. Unfortunately my spiritual growth at the time did not match my astral capabilities and I was scared witless by the experience, which has unfortunately stayed with me. imo, the ability to travel to other dimensions is produced specifically by tuning into them, just as David Icke says when he talks about tuning into BBC and then switching over to SKY. However, one problem is that there is no "map" and therefore where you actually go is very hit and miss. I would love to know whether you can direct yourself somewhere specifically and how.

I had a similar problem when I was about 23. I bi-located once from where I was in a barracks in Germany to some tropical reef. Scared the living daylights out of me. Are you ready to jump back into it now?? It's taken me quite some time to want to get back into it after that, but your question certainly seems to imply that you are ready to get back into the fracas. I wish you the best!

[Whiskey_Mystic]

always been fascinated with Shamanism, particularly the concept of 'soul retrieval'.

there was a point in my life where i thought i might actually need this service, but the shamans (alleged?) i spoke to were very reticent to perform it.

it's my understanding that this is a massive undertaking by any shaman, from the newly initiated to the most experienced.

do we have any shamans here on Avalon, i wonder?

I am a student of shamanism and lucky enough to have a very gifted teacher. I have been studying with her in a formal relationship for more than seven years. She does soul retrieval and I have experienced it several times. It is a profound and healing experience. If you would like to contact her, please write to me. If you are simply curious and would like to know more about soul retrieval, I recommend Sandra Ingerman.

http://www.sandraingerman.com/

Here on Avalon, we also have 9Eagle9, whom I have the utmost respect for.

[music]

@ Music, please read both my posts.
Plants are ONE way of opening these doorways.
Not everyone can tolerant these plants.
Some people are VERY drug sensitive.
I'm pushing this point as its irresponsible not too offer alternatives that might be SAFER for some.
We have a lot of viewers here.
I know what i speak of here, this is one of my areas of study, (long term).

On journeying, and soul retrieval.
It's not dangerous if you are trained properly,
yes there are alot of "nasties" out there, but you are trained how to journey safely.
You never journey alone, always with protection and guidance from your
spirit helpers who love you.

The training for soul retrieval is very intensive and much
more involved than simply journeying.
Bare in mind that in Shamanism, you are a "hollow bone" and very much being
"worked through" it is your spirit helpers that do most of the work, collect the soul parts, etc.
You are more the "bridge", that works between the worlds.

There are many ways people are " called " to this work.
Me i had a previous incarnation in this field.
Some people have visionary, mystical experiences, like in dreams.
Many people are draw to learn how to journey for self development,
it's the path of directly communing with your own guidance.
And they might find they have a real affinity for this work.
More people are wanting answers to the bigger questions,
to make the unseen "seen".
Personally i have travelled through many, many healing modalities,
and this is the one that has given me the most answers.

Shamanism addresses issues at the root cause, enabling healing
that modern medicine rarely comes close to reaching.
It's about working with the soul, the spirit of a person,
where all things manifest from to begin with ,
And it's the only healing modality that deals with trauma and abuse
fully and completely, and i can speak on this from personal experience.

I agree with you, I am not saying plants are the only way, and the ideal is to be able to access other realms without them. They are a tool only. People are also allergic to many other plant-based substances than was formerly the case in recorded history. Our bodies have been made sensitive by environmental factors. Many issues with bad reactions to plants may be traced to improper preparation or dosage (lack of supervision), and after all that, yes, you are correct, some peoples physiology just doesn't sit well with some plants.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Not all shamans use drugs to enable them to access the spiritual realm.

I prefer to call them plant teachers. I have had Ayahuasca maybe 30 times. There is nothing like it.

[music]

Hm. I have a friend who does not believe there are any external higher dimensional or lower dimensional entities. She believes that they are all a part of our own psychic projection. She equates this with the idea of Oneness. By "resolving back into you", are you saying that it was a part of you on some other dimensional level, or that it just exited from your field of perception?


More the perception my habitual (3D) consciousness gave to a sublimated aspect of the dark principle when encountered in a higher dimensional state. Our relationship to the dark principle is seriously screwed up IMO. I'll give you a link here (http://lightworkers.org/blog/148203/important-read-these-intense-times) to a good examination of our relationship to the light/dark duality. It's only short, I highly recommend it.

[Mark]

More the perception my habitual (3D) consciousness gave to a sublimated aspect of the dark principle when encountered in a higher dimensional state. Our relationship to the dark principle is seriously screwed up IMO. I'll give you a link here (http://lightworkers.org/blog/148203/important-read-these-intense-times) to a good examination of our relationship to the light/dark duality. It's only short, I highly recommend it.

Personally, I actually resonate to this quite strongly and attempt to personify it in my lifestyle and in my understanding of reality. Thanks for the link, a format like that appeals to my storytelling sensibilities. I particularly like this explanation:


Some try to shine light onto the darkness thinking this is the solution..but the dark does not need to become light. In the same way that a plant needs both the rich dark soil and the vibrant light to grow healthy...so do we need both the light and the dark to be healthy, whole and strong.

I think that, in theory, this is easy to understand but in practicality it is hard to accept because it first requires us to look within ourselves and reconcile the dark and the light and too many, even among the so called Awakened, do not want to do that to the extent necessary. There are some surface things its easy to get to and a lot stop there. But the deeper, ingrained and sub-conscious stuff ... I think it often takes the world to bring out of us. The final paragraph and a bit more:


The solution is not to repel, to squash, to fight, or to rage against, as these actions ultimately only act to amplify and perpetuate the problem...the answer is to love. When we choose love instead of fear we begin to neutralize and heal the dualistic system. When we remember that darkness is as much a part of us as the light, and that it has become evil because it has been separated from love, the only logical solution is love love love love and more love.

We are at the point in our story where we are ready to transcend the game of duality and start a new game based on unity and wholeness, and they key to our reunification is love.

I think is basically correct, but does not go far enough. There is a lot of work that people have to do before they can get to the point where they can love what has been defined in their reality as evil. First they have to understand what love really is. How it is expressed. To do that many often have to get through their own personal detritus and experience, maybe for the first time, self-love. That final part smacks of "Love and Light" to me, which, I think, is an energetic trap.

[music]

The person who posted the essay is someone I know, so when you say:


I think is basically correct, but does not go far enough. There is a lot of work that people have to do before they can get to the point where they can love what has been defined in their reality as evil. First they have to understand what love really is. How it is expressed. To do that many often have to get through their own personal detritus and experience, maybe for the first time, self-love. That final part smacks of "Love and Light" to me, which, I think, is an energetic trap.

I would say that this magical person is one who has worked long and hard at assimilating and loving the aspects of her own darkness. I have been lucky enough to help her energetically with this process at times, and where the final sentence "We are at the point in our story where we are ready to transcend the game of duality and start a new game based on unity and wholeness, and they key to our reunification is love. " may appear wishy-washy "Love and Light", I would say that for me it resonates with the truth of one who has been through the fire. I agree that Love is the answer to all ills - not Love and Light, because Love is the sum of Light and Dark.

[Ishtar]

I don't use psychotropic herbs myself and still am able to take shamanic journeys, and bring back information and guidance from the spirits.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

My community doesn't use any drugs either. We've never found them necessary. We have also noticed that in the hands of people who do not undergo formal apprenticeships in the traditional way, the use of psychotropics often results in just "tripping", which is not the same as working. Heck, we ourselves have trouble not tripping even without drugs.

[Ishtar]

My community doesn't use any drugs either. We've never found them necessary. We have also noticed that in the hands of people who do not undergo formal apprenticeships in the traditional way, the use of psychotropics often results in just "tripping", which is not the same as working. Heck, we ourselves have trouble not tripping even without drugs.

So true. Many are just young people from the cities who go and stay with a tribe in the Amazon for a few weeks, and get initiated that way. However, they come back to their studio flats in their high rises, and can become quite isolated in that experience. Some even refer to themselves as psychonauts, but they don't work for their communities. I'm not saying that there's no value in being a lone psychonaut but the role of the shaman has been traditionally to serve their communities, and so if 'drugs' aren't acceptable to their communities, they have to find another way. In my research, it looks like drumming has always been an equally popular way of crossing between worlds and so I've always used that method. I've got to the point now, though, where I don't need the drum anymore and I just signal that I'm going, and I go.... often in complete silence.

[geoff]

What happened to your friends who did not keep grounded?

The price for not keeping grounded?.Insanity, suicide and a lot of sadness.

[Eagle]

There is so much to learn and know you would be suprised

[Elethia]

@ Music, please read both my posts.
Plants are ONE way of opening these doorways.
Not everyone can tolerant these plants.
Some people are VERY drug sensitive.
I'm pushing this point as its irresponsible not too offer alternatives that might be SAFER for some.
We have a lot of viewers here.
I know what i speak of here, this is one of my areas of study, (long term).

On journeying, and soul retrieval.
It's not dangerous if you are trained properly,
yes there are alot of "nasties" out there, but you are trained how to journey safely.
You never journey alone, always with protection and guidance from your
spirit helpers who love you.

The training for soul retrieval is very intensive and much
more involved than simply journeying.
Bare in mind that in Shamanism, you are a "hollow bone" and very much being
"worked through" it is your spirit helpers that do most of the work, collect the soul parts, etc.
You are more the "bridge", that works between the worlds.

There are many ways people are " called " to this work.
Me i had a previous incarnation in this field.
Some people have visionary, mystical experiences, like in dreams.
Many people are draw to learn how to journey for self development,
it's the path of directly communing with your own guidance.
And they might find they have a real affinity for this work.
More people are wanting answers to the bigger questions,
to make the unseen "seen".
Personally i have travelled through many, many healing modalities,
and this is the one that has given me the most answers.

Shamanism addresses issues at the root cause, enabling healing
that modern medicine rarely comes close to reaching.
It's about working with the soul, the spirit of a person,
where all things manifest from to begin with ,
And it's the only healing modality that deals with trauma and abuse
fully and completely, and i can speak on this from personal experience.

I agree with you, I am not saying plants are the only way, and the ideal is to be able to access other realms without them. They are a tool only. People are also allergic to many other plant-based substances than was formerly the case in recorded history. Our bodies have been made sensitive by environmental factors. Many issues with bad reactions to plants may be traced to improper preparation or dosage (lack of supervision), and after all that, yes, you are correct, some peoples physiology just doesn't sit well with some plants.

Plants are a form of consciousness, too. You may engage in communication with them if it feels comfortable for you as you would other beings of consciousness. It's your choice. But of course, you need to come to the table with respect for them and what they have to offer. Ingesting them is inserting a piece of their energy inside you and there could be a compatibility issue there. But I don't see anything wrong with the concept.

I once had a house plant scream at me (heard loudly in my head!) when I cut it with a pair of scissors. Never did that again. If there was anything to be taken off the plant, I let it die first.

[Mark]

I would say that this magical person is one who has worked long and hard at assimilating and loving the aspects of her own darkness. I have been lucky enough to help her energetically with this process at times, and where the final sentence "We are at the point in our story where we are ready to transcend the game of duality and start a new game based on unity and wholeness, and they key to our reunification is love. " may appear wishy-washy "Love and Light", I would say that for me it resonates with the truth of one who has been through the fire. I agree that Love is the answer to all ills - not Love and Light, because Love is the sum of Light and Dark.

We are all going through the fire, every single one of us, in our own ways. Language, when speaking in these terms an as we can see in this thread and others, is very important and easily misconstrued. And it is easy to take things personally, interpreting others disagreements as personal attacks, as well, even if they are not meant that way. As you imply, it is the underlying intent that is important. Knowledge, growth, continuous interaction and the building of that Love, through the clash of Light and Dark.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


The price for not keeping grounded?.Insanity, suicide and a lot of sadness.

I know that must have been hard to experience.

[Mark]

There is so much to learn and know you would be suprised

One of my mantras is, I don't know anything for sure, I just have a few ideas. I love learning, personally, and am happy to find out something new, see a different perspective. I try very hard not to hold on to knowledge and wield it as an aspect of my personality. Outside of normal experience and everyday non-Internet life, I spent years, I suppose, engaging in flame wars and intellectual combat on bbs, usenet and yahoo groups and if I learned anything it was to accept being wrong humbly and with gratitude for the experience.

What kinds of things are you learning and what were you most surprised about?

[ocean]

TO Rakhyt: Yes sir i did recieve the call many years ago...and yes sir we are called to the work to be of assistance and help to others. Yes I do have my own ceremonies and energetic ways that were taught both by human and spirit teachers. It is a hard life to live and those who want to "be a shaman" i say make sure you are called to the work. There is no power or glory for the true workers. We simply exist as a gateway for the spirits to come tjru and help our people. hope that answers a little for you sir. Thokoza makhos'amakhulo.

[Mark]

TO Rakhyt: Yes sir i did recieve the call many years ago...and yes sir we are called to the work to be of assistance and help to others. Yes I do have my own ceremonies and energetic ways that were taught both by human and spirit teachers. It is a hard life to live and those who want to "be a shaman" i say make sure you are called to the work. There is no power or glory for the true workers. We simply exist as a gateway for the spirits to come tjru and help our people. hope that answers a little for you sir. Thokoza makhos'amakhulo.

Wow what language is that there at the end? Yes indeed it does, thank you so much. :)

I think your comment that "there is no power or glory for the truth workers" is probably you being nice. LOL It's probably quite thankless, dangerous and difficult, especially for those who are not called and have other motivations for seeking that path. Thank you for your service-to-others. Bless.

[DNA]

Rahkyt, I once played music with a traditional Ghanaian drummer, and you might be interested in this quote from him one night after a gig: "Everyone loves a melody, something to sing, words to weave over music, but remove the vocal and we can still dance. We love the treble instruments, guitars, keyboards, but remove the treble and we can still dance. We love the rumble of the bass, the way it moves the inside of us, but remove the bass and we can still dance. All else is nothing more than a way to entice us to listen to the magic of the drum."

Agreed with the drum, and I would also propose "real" dancing is a legitimate route.
For instance, I have no idea if this young man has any idea concerning the things we are talking about,
But, it is my contention that Don Juan could have brought him up to speed in the world of sorcery rather quickly.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXO-jKksQkM&feature=player_embedded
.
.
It is my contention that such movement is only possible through accessing areas of your aura and in effect, really for all intents and purposes, moving the assemblige point. A powerfull form of Not-Doing if you will.

[NancyV]

While I greatly appreciate Shamans of all cultures and think they serve a valuable purpose within their cultures, I would personally aspire to avoid being stuck in an earth-centric practice of any kind. I think we tend to get stuck often, believing we have found "the" answer or "the" highest practice. I tend to consider these practices more as a hobby. I still love my crystals and tarot, etc. But there is always something else awaiting us if we choose to expand to receive it. It is a journey. The path we take is as valuable as the levels we attain until we find out eventually that none of it is really higher or lower, greater or lesser, positive or negative ....since it is all One.

Today I find myself curious as to the Oneness formulation that you speak of above. I assume you are speaking from the perspective of the ALL, since, down here on earth, the dichotomies exist. Or, do you believe - as I also asked someone else on another thread today - that those who take the path toward the negative down here in 3D are going to eventually end up in the same place as those who take the path toward the positive?
I'm speaking of the Source as Oneness. Yes we do have the wonderful dichotomies here on earth. even if we are actually ONE here we don't feel or act like we are, nor is there any reason to do so. This separation exists for good reasons. We planned it this way and now we get to enjoy it. Sure, those who are negative here and now will not be negative once they pass out of duality and we all end up going back and forth...being the Source and coming into the creation. I have no idea how long we may get stuck somewhere if we like to play in more negative dimensions but since time has little meaning it doesn't really matter. Also there's the potential that we exist in many dimensions, states of being and time lines all at the same time.

I like to stay more in the shadows, not leaning heavily towards the dark or the light, ready to utilize either polarity when needed. Having had experiences with both sides I see the middle or neutral ground as more powerful and wholistic. If one can't deal with negative entities and energies then shamanic experiences may be too scary for them. If they believe too much in the light they may be deceived by those who will use that belief to manipulate them and they are also losing half their potential. As someone mentioned, maybe in another thread, LOVE is the merging of light and dark...... which makes it the ultimate powerful state of being. It's not the "love" that most people mean when they think of light and love. This love is all powerful. We should probably call it a different word so we don't think it's all warm and cuddly.

[DNA]

More the perception my habitual (3D) consciousness gave to a sublimated aspect of the dark principle when encountered in a higher dimensional state. Our relationship to the dark principle is seriously screwed up IMO. I'll give you a link here (http://lightworkers.org/blog/148203/important-read-these-intense-times) to a good examination of our relationship to the light/dark duality. It's only short, I highly recommend it.
Agreed :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tja6_h4lT6A



I like this too Nancy

I like to stay more in the shadows, not leaning heavily towards the dark or the light, ready to utilize either polarity when needed. Having had experiences with both sides I see the middle or neutral ground as more powerful and wholistic. If one can't deal with negative entities and energies then shamanic experiences may be too scary for them. If they believe too much in the light they may be deceived by those who will use that belief to manipulate them and they are also losing half their potential. As someone mentioned, maybe in another thread, LOVE is the merging of light and dark...... which makes it the ultimate powerful state of being. It's not the "love" that most people mean when they think of light and love. This love is all powerful. We should probably call it a different word so we don't think it's all warm and cuddly.

Especially the part about being deceived by those willing to use belief to manipulate.
It takes a brave soul to look at things stripped away of all their paradigms and connontations.
Folks talk love and light like nothing bad can ever happen.
But it is my contention that God loves chickens and cows just as much as he loves us, and we see what they are going through.:pizza:

Pragmatic is the term for folks who are attempting Shamanism.
We are a pragmatic bunch and we tend to not rely on anyone else's explanation for reality.
Belief and indulgence in optimism is just not pragmatic. :tape2:

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I'm speaking of the Source as Oneness. Yes we do have the wonderful dichotomies here on earth. even if we are actually ONE here we don't feel or act like we are, nor is there any reason to do so. This separation exists for good reasons. We planned it this way and now we get to enjoy it. Sure, those who are negative here and now will not be negative once they pass out of duality and we all end up going back and forth...being the Source and coming into the creation. I have no idea how long we may get stuck somewhere if we like to play in more negative dimensions but since time has little meaning it doesn't really matter. Also there's the potential that we exist in many dimensions, states of being and time lines all at the same time.

I like to stay more in the shadows, not leaning heavily towards the dark or the light, ready to utilize either polarity when needed. Having had experiences with both sides I see the middle or neutral ground as more powerful and wholistic. If one can't deal with negative entities and energies then shamanic experiences may be too scary for them. If they believe too much in the light they may be deceived by those who will use that belief to manipulate them and they are also losing half their potential. As someone mentioned, maybe in another thread, LOVE is the merging of light and dark...... which makes it the ultimate powerful state of being. It's not the "love" that most people mean when they think of light and love. This love is all powerful. We should probably call it a different word so we don't think it's all warm and cuddly.

Having said that, I'm sure you can see how Shamanism and Taoism compliment each other so well. My study path, and that of my Teacher, is both Shamanic and Taoist. This surprises some people, but there is a powerful synchronicity in the two traditions. Similarly, internal martial arts such as chi gung which we also study, blend well with core shamanism as well. We find some of the same concepts, just with different words used to describe them.

[ocean]

TO Rakhyt: Yes sir it is very dangerous for those not called. They can get stuck in other realities and many times they can hurt the people that come to them...even if that is not the intention. The difference between a shaman and an insane person is ..the shaman can go to other realities and can get back here...the insane person gts stuck and cannot return. the language is Zulu and it means: Blesssed one my divinity touches your divinity. Thokoza makhos'amakhulo

[Eagle]

There is so much to learn and know you would be suprised

One of my mantras is, I don't know anything for sure, I just have a few ideas. I love learning, personally, and am happy to find out something new, see a different perspective. I try very hard not to hold on to knowledge and wield it as an aspect of my personality. Outside of normal experience and everyday non-Internet life, I spent years, I suppose, engaging in flame wars and intellectual combat on bbs, usenet and yahoo groups and if I learned anything it was to accept being wrong humbly and with gratitude for the experience.

What kinds of things are you learning and what were you most surprised about?

It would take me a couple of days to a week to tell you what I have been learning, I go to weekly classes and learn so much. if you look for "Elena Radford" on the web it will give you more of the specifics but from my point of view it has changed my whole way of thinking. How much do you want to know?

[music]

I like to stay more in the shadows, not leaning heavily towards the dark or the light, ready to utilize either polarity when needed. Having had experiences with both sides I see the middle or neutral ground as more powerful and wholistic. If one can't deal with negative entities and energies then shamanic experiences may be too scary for them. If they believe too much in the light they may be deceived by those who will use that belief to manipulate them and they are also losing half their potential. As someone mentioned, maybe in another thread, LOVE is the merging of light and dark...... which makes it the ultimate powerful state of being. It's not the "love" that most people mean when they think of light and love. This love is all powerful. We should probably call it a different word so we don't think it's all warm and cuddly.

I remember when I first connected with the Love that is all in higher consciousness, it felt a little "cold" to me. Then I realised, no, it is Love the way it should be - free from the heat of human need, pure Love with no hooks and holes. Then the most amazing feeling came over me as I truly became aware of Love - what it is, what it means, the power, my heart radiating cool gentle Love both inwardly and outwardly eternally and infinitely. One of those "there are no words" moments :)

[Rantaak]

Not all shamans use drugs to enable them to access the spiritual realm.

Shamans don't use "drugs", they use teacher plants, otherwise known as entheogens.

Agreed, but my point is you don't have to partake in this practice of plant medicines in order to reach the states required to do this work.
This is what is not commonly understood.
One can do this in the comfort of their own home, and regularly, and safely rather than going to the Amazon, etc, to do this.
Plant medicines are extremely taxing on the body and you can't do it on a regular basis because of this,
some people cant tolerate them at all.
The point I'm trying to make here is there are alternatives that produce the same outcomes, and you can use them more often,
daily if needed. This info comes from practitioners that have been working in this field for over 30 years.

Regarding this and the sentiments of many others on this thread, I would like to share my ideas regarding the practicality and uniformity of plant symbiosis in shamanic practices.

While I do believe that once a behavior is performed on the physical level (for example, the brute force method of plant symbiosis) that behavior can then be recalled upon in an ordinary waking state because the subconscious has access to that process, having learned it.

Terence McKenna said something very interesting about the difference between shamans that do and don't use plants. I will paraphrase. Basically, there is a reason these substances and practices have been made illegal. It is because the majority of people fear that what shamans claim of the experiences engendered by these plants are absolutely accurate. While some people (mostly shamans) find the convention-rending paradigm shattering boundary dissolving of entheogenic substances to be completely blissful, the masses would diametrically oppose this position in horror. For this reason, having moved past the psychedelic hysteria of the 60s, shamanism has become a far more esoteric activity. Terence supports this level of exclusiveness, because even though every person is capable of experiencing these states, they may not have the faculties to properly utilize them in a beneficial manner. I would agree with him on this, as I believe that despite the esoteric nature of these experiences, the select few who choose to pioneer their ways through these dimensions have a tendency to integrate their discoveries well enough that the innovation trickles down through the rest of society. Look at Steve Jobs, for example. Terence believes that this stigma against shamanism and psychoactives dates all the way back to the founding of agriculture.

I have observed the effects of these substances on "muggles" and I can say with certainty that it is a poor allocation of resources to take most of them through these doors (unless they have been given two assemblage points and are thus facing the potential of awakening). At the same time, I feel that shamans who proclaim to attain these states naturally are incredibly rare, and generally have only done so by fluke (as in my experience). The accidental slippage into the space that exists between breaths can horrify the unsuspecting. It is only through the symbiosis with these plants that we gain the capacity to control (safely maneuver through) these experiences, and as such one who attempts to do so otherwise is essentially performing a ritual enactment of the real thing.

[Mark]

It is my contention that such movement is only possible through accessing areas of your aura and in effect, really for all intents and purposes, moving the assemblige point. A powerfull form of Not-Doing if you will.

How very interesting is that? Back in the early 80s I was a pop-locker and breakdancer as well. Good enough to get into a regional Jay-Jacobs commercial, but not as good as this young man. Amazing movement. I'd never thought about the assemblage point as being expressed through this type of movement. Could you explain a bit more about how you conceive of it thusly? In my experience, in order to do so, you do have to be able to move your perception all the way around your body, about 2-5 inches away from each point that you are moving. Each movement builds upon previous and successive movements, creating a symphony of synchronous harmonics that vibe to the beat of the music you are listening to, you are, effectively, in a trance, or in "the zone", as you are moving. If you are doing a routine in a battle or spontaneously then there is a story that you create with your body, utillzing its language in order to speak to your audience.


TO Rakhyt: Yes sir it is very dangerous for those not called. They can get stuck in other realities and many times they can hurt the people that come to them...even if that is not the intention. The difference between a shaman and an insane person is ..the shaman can go to other realities and can get back here...the insane person gts stuck and cannot return. the language is Zulu and it means: Blesssed one my divinity touches your divinity. Thokoza makhos'amakhulo

Ah, thank you! I remember reading a book by Malidoma Some called "Of Water and the Spirit" and he talked about how the young boys are initiated, he did it as an older boy because he was sent to Missionary School, and how the Shamans started a fire and then opened a dimensional portal over the fire, through which each boy had to jump and they entered some other world. And some of the boys actually, physically, did not return. All boys in this tribe had to go through this. There were other rituals and coming-of-age ceremonies for the women, but I would assume they were just as taxing. All speaking toward the difference in the experience of adulthood between Westerners and those who come from traditional cultures and must go through such events in order to "prove" that they are men and women.


It would take me a couple of days to a week to tell you what I have been learning, I go to weekly classes and learn so much. if you look for "Elena Radford" on the web it will give you more of the specifics but from my point of view it has changed my whole way of thinking. How much do you want to know?

Anything you are willing to share! But, to start, may I ask what brought you to this particular expression of your spirituality in the first place?


I have observed the effects of these substances on "muggles" and I can say with certainty that it is a poor allocation of resources to take most of them through these doors (unless they have been given two assemblage points and are thus facing the potential of awakening). At the same time, I feel that shamans who proclaim to attain these states naturally are incredibly rare, and generally have only done so by fluke (as in my experience). The accidental slippage into the space that exists between breaths can horrify the unsuspecting. It is only through the symbiosis with these plants that we gain the capacity to control (safely maneuver through) these experiences, and as such one who attempts to do so otherwise is essentially performing a ritual enactment of the real thing.

Excellent post and recounting. Could you explain about more about needing two assemblage points? And, in relation to that question, is your understanding of assemblage points and their employment the same as DNA as mentioned earlier in this thread and as I quote earlier in this post?

[9eagle9]

There is a difference between Shamanic Practice and a Shaman. Typically one begins to transform into that being a dependeable state of being . Willfully holding that space instead of accidentally running into it peridically. But one can step out of it and be a street person comfortably as well.

One doesn't learn to mediate between spirit, filter and flesh until one learns to manage their own expressions. You mediate matters between this world, and the others and you can mediate anything on this 3d realm. Currently our filters are managing us, and plant spirit helpers serve in taking those filters down. So many bad trips are experienced becasue we are attempting to journey without taking our filters down. If I were to intiate a journey anywhere by plunking on sunglasses and rigidly maintaining my own home space was the only reality..I'm not going to have a very good trip.

Would you?

The most I could offer as far as tranlating ancient esoteric knowledege like to bring it up to date in the western world is start calling our evil spirts and demons by a mor accurate name--our filters. Our filters. Or prepare someone before hand by softening their filters with mild plant helpers before sending them off into the abrupt ones who roll the shades up all at once. It doesn't matter if our indengenous shamans really do this, as long as we know this .

There is a process involved that requires a number of lifetimes, transformation on the bigger picture scale to go from practice to being. And if we think we have achieved it now, who knows what the next life time will bring.

Shamans who don't acknowledge the influence of plant helpers by knowing precisely what is occuring and judge their use, typically haven't reached a level of perception that allows them many different perspectives of the same event and allowing themselves to be tempered by what they witnessed. They still have filters. Or perhaps this is a way to avoid their own filters, it depends.One begins to realize shaman is an expression not a title.


We are all influenced by 'unseen' things, shifting one's perception allows one to see what was previously unobserved. Because we have filters, we have minds. Becoming a shamanic being is quite literally losing your mind and the filters that shore it up.

Shamans in South America were not filtered by their socieites that it was drug use, here in the West we have been. Anything that brings down a filter is immediately judged (instead of accessed or examined for shadows ). Like alcohol and pot use. Its not the plant, its the fact that once the filter has been brought down we are not looking to what it blocked us from perceiving. The pot and the alochol is not willfully climbing down anyone's throats, anymore than euthogenics are. The choice in the use and how it's used is the most revealing thing about a person. Any person. The plant can no more make you a shaman than I can but ....it can help you to know you own beingness. We have filters about our beingness. We express so much higher beingness and its lost in what others think it should be.

We get co dependent on any sort of 'help' regardless if its plant spirit helpers or the downstairs maid. ..lol. Or bottle of Old Grand Dad. Or spirit guides, or angels or anything external of us. The help can become a crutch.

Behind each filter is door waiting to open so one can see what was behind it. An aspect or a facet of yourself. Suddenly good turns bad, and bad turns good and then the concept of both become meaningless.

You have to mediate the spirit plant helper before you can move on to other plant helpers. Some people take the helper and blow it out of proportion by venerating the help too much and some deny and judge it. If you don't care one way or the other more than likely you've already been there. Maybe you already did this, maybe it's still waiting for you , it's all about what you have seen(or not) so far. . Mediate the physical world before you can hope to mediate between this world and the next. If you don't like conflict here ....it doesn't get better over there ....lol. You learn to mediate conflict here you can do it there. You avoid here you will avoid it there and one will miss a lot....just because of their filters. You can't put a plant in it's proper perspective on the physical realm but one expects to have accurate perspectives on unseen things.

Huh.

There is no way ANYONE can avoid the interaction between the plant spirit helper not while they are on this realm of existence regardless if one is 'destined' to be a shaman or not. We didn't come to this plant infested world and hope to avoid them all and they are all helpers.

And in this lifetime where it wasn't neccesary to my development, I have observed what its de-constructing in others. That was neccessary to go outside my own how-it-pertains-to-me experience. It would do me no good to create another filter about plant spirit helpers through judgement. I'd ultimately be judging my own past expereinces but not neccessarily those in this lifetime. We can create more past life trauma in this lifetime by judging our past experiences in others. .We do not say yes or no, we accept what is neccessary.

We are always in the influence of plant helpers, I've watched medicine people wave sage and sweetgrass around, offer me tea, and dismiss plant helper as drug addiction. That's sorta bold...lol. The point is to be able to get to that unfiltered place (which doesn't have judgements) and maintain it without help plant or otherwise. Unadulturated being.

Plant spirit ingestion is communion. What comes up from that communion is confession. Confession is good for the soul! or rather it serves to bring down the filters that bar us from soul expression.

The filters that it was hiding behind --and that was all we could experience was the filter-- is suddenly come down. There's the soul, its been retrieved. now start to hold that unfiltere space for it. It never went anywhere but one spends life times looking at the world through filters to where they can no longer see themselves. If you can see it, you can't find it. So the world is illusionary --created by filters; more like we simply do not see the world the way it REALLY is.

Anyone here can tell me they see the world much differently know than they did 20 years ago. Perhaps it seems safer, perhaps it seems more dangerous. Nothing changed but the filters either coming up or coming down.

Give you one guess who stole those communion -confession rituals and perverted them as a means of control. Now they have a bad reputation or a good one. It depends on your filters.

Violation of a sacred agreement even as they conducted the same rites behind the scene for more nefarious reasons. To not bring down filters but to create more filters. They didn't want you to -find your soul which is all salvation is (and what salvia, etc can do. I mean its called SALVIA for a reason) but hide it from you. They can't take it from you, so they have to find a means to hide it. So we find a means to un-hide it....lol.

Plant spirit helpers , help us to drop our filters. We can do this in a highly respected ceremonial setting with exoctic sacred rare plants, but I've seen the lay person ingest a whole lot of grain alcohol (wheat spirit essence) have their filters come down and intiate in mindless ramblings, ravings, and perhaps rage or sorrow. And DT's. Whats the essential difference here?

People don't regard the liver as a sacred temple but what helps anchor our filters is stored there...lol. Even our physical bodies express different aspects of ourselves. One knew what they were doing and the other didn't. One was managing and one was not.


If you ever take a high tension ceremony take note of how many people percieved they were vomiting up their body organs when they get a glimpse of reality. That is very telling as to where their filters were stored at. Shamans who mentor and facilitate these rites (rights) find this way a much easier way to find where the filters are stored this way rather than tedious back and forth questioning games with a shadow self in denial. Bring the shadow self down and let the spirit tell it's own story for a while, the plant helper is simply keeping that space for the shaman. it's HELPING. Not controlling.

It is the same principal ---one is conducted under more austere and controlled means the other is intuitively self medicating with plant spirits (literally) in a bar. The only difference is the judgements (filters) we put on it. A person who goes into a mindless loop of bringing down filters through alcohol binges is simply not looking at what was revealed behind the filter. When they do, society calls it 'being in recovery'. I'd not be in the least suprised if our future shamans are alll at a AA meeting right now...(smile).

The mind is mostly composed of filters. Once you drop the blinkers you seen in 360 directions and that may even be limiting. So in some lifetimes the refusal of plant spirit helpers is a judgement based on fears, in one's own filters, or an acknowledgement that one's trial by plants is no longer neccessary, its served its purpose, but that doesn't mean we no longer intereact or have the same benefit from the plant spirit helper via communion and revert to less communal types of interactions with them. Unless one is a dedicated carnivore I doubt anyone can avoid the ingestion of plant spirit helpers. Some are gradual and some are abrupt.

I like essential oils , condensened plant essence e or spirit. A gradual breaking down of filters rather than the abrupt ones. Same thing is occuring it depends on the psyche of the participant. We are dealing with the filters of the psyche and we all have different filters so one size does not fit all. But if i found from neccessity I needed a more abrupt sort of communcion and confession (removing of filters) I'd not hesitate to go there.I don't condone recreational use but even the urge to do anything of that nature has a revealing quality to it. If I want a drink I always ask myself what filter are you wanting to be relieved from? I'd access that on an invidual level. We all be one and the same at one level but on this level our filters are varied and diversified.

But conversely I've put of drop of oil on someone's head and off they went , there is no eutho that could have prompted a more stronger event than that innocent little oil. Then again I wasn't accused of recreational essentiaol oils use and abuse...for some reason. Filters probably (smile).


I see very little difference between the drum and the plant, the drum serves to break down density through vibration. When our body becomes a drum, a high vibrational tool, the drum may not be necessary. It doesn't become bad or useless or a ....crutch. One may retreat to it for their own personal comfort or enjoyment but the drum has become unneccesary as a means to an end..

The ultimate in healing is to be able to facilitate by doing nothing but being present. .And if we have filters we are not truly present. The greatest gift we can give each other is....being Present. It's the same thing Gift/ Present.

[taliesin]

Cyber-covens of Wiccans meditating and employing Hindu mantras and indigenous American herbalism to achieve certain ends both personally and collectively?
.

Yup, that's pretty much my experience! (Well, some indigneous plants also ;))

And group work with drumming, meditation, connection with the land etc

Le Gra agus Beannachtai
T

[taliesin]

Astrid - Everything you say is valid, but MY point is that they ARE NOT drugs.This is one of those words used by the PTB to control people's thoughts and reactions.

Some people use them as such, but in my experience, in ceremony, they are truly medicine, teacher plants.

And, again just speaking from my experience, they have a turbo charge but are very definitely not quick fixes. They have brought me teachings, experiences of bliss and horror, and a myriad of other seeings, on a profound level. And in waking reality, I have had to work with these teachings through meditation, shadow work, therapy, dreamwork etc to fully integrate them. A three day medicine ceremony can bring teachings that can take many, many months to process and resolve.

And yet my most profound experience of connection with the grandmothers/ancestors was not through the plants but through drumming in ceremonial circle around a fire. Teacher plants are not the only way. It depends on the individual and the nature of the stuff that they are working with and wish to resolve. Drumming is very very grounding, and vibrationally cleansing and strengthening of the body

And I do believe that we have incarnated in our pyhsical bodies here at this time to have this waking experience in 4D, so our teachers are all around us, we don't need altered states to grow and love and experience that love, but some spiritual discipline or methodology helps Sometimes the plants give us the eyes to see them more easily than without, it depends on where you are in your journey.

Le gra agus beannachtai,
Tx

[DNA]

It is my contention that such movement is only possible through accessing areas of your aura and in effect, really for all intents and purposes, moving the assemblige point. A powerfull form of Not-Doing if you will.

How very interesting is that? Back in the early 80s I was a pop-locker and breakdancer as well. Good enough to get into a regional Jay-Jacobs commercial, but not as good as this young man. Amazing movement. I'd never thought about the assemblage point as being expressed through this type of movement. Could you explain a bit more about how you conceive of it thusly? In my experience, in order to do so, you do have to be able to move your perception all the way around your body, about 2-5 inches away from each point that you are moving. Each movement builds upon previous and successive movements, creating a symphony of synchronous harmonics that vibe to the beat of the music you are listening to, you are, effectively, in a trance, or in "the zone", as you are moving. If you are doing a routine in a battle or spontaneously then there is a story that you create with your body, utillzing its language in order to speak to your audience.

I used to love to use dancing as a tool to turn off the internal dialogue.
I agree with what your saying in terms of moving the awareness around the body. I've never had an array of mastered dance moves at my disposal as displayed by the young man in the earlier video, not even close. He has mastered so many difficult moves and incorporated them together in such a seamless manner, I'm sure the subtelties are lost on some folks, but he takes my breath away. I missed the pop-locking breaking days, I came in on the hip hop scene as a teenager, and changed my moves and incorporated more with the electronica scene. At my best I could liquid walk and heavy hand pretty well.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YekEPQl7HqI



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2pbrcBWau1g#!

I actually incorporated Chi Kung postueres with groundedness and energy passing through the palms. Dancing was really a chi kung exercise for me when you boiled it down to brass tacks. I had read the Mantuak Chia books as a teenager, and found the postures and breathing techniques amazing. Taoism being method based is a valid expresian of shamanism in my opinion.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSBqdciy1HW-LyXJ1TtohR-hfOgx8NkXcJ6n8vlc9u_CIXRbF_qhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS45N-0eGurbsmyjD-sT_d6YSpghSZikH_CP6cAKlwm0tAdRhhJ
People can express dislike of techno, but, when amplified through industrial strength speaker systems designed with space shuttle like technology, the experience induces a positive and easilly maintained trance state, unique and motivating.

When my trance was full on I would occasionally finger dance like the young lady in the first video.
While I was doing it, I would feel like I was finger plucking filiments in my aura.
My fingers could feel tactile sensations, like moving through a thick liquid.

I would not think this would be lost on you. Don Juan describes this exact same sensation in the "gate of power", an extremely powerfull technique for stalkers in the "not doing" category.

[Rantaak]

Excellent post and recounting. Could you explain about more about needing two assemblage points? And, in relation to that question, is your understanding of assemblage points and their employment the same as DNA as mentioned earlier in this thread and as I quote earlier in this post?

People with two assemblage points basically perceive reality twice as hard as others. This makes them extremely sensitive to the metaphysical as well. They tend to be really good at leading people (or else they end up with many followers). I know quite a few people afflicted with this condition, myself included. Sometimes it gets diagnosed as bipolar disorder, but what it really boils down to is having a personality that is simultaneously brash and sensitive. The jester archetype is present here. Canon examples include celebrities such as: Al Pacino, Nicolas Cage, Corey Taylor, Jack Nicholson, Ian McKellan (I think, or at least Gandalf), Frodo Baggins, Ron Paul, the character Marco from Animorphs, The Joker, etc. There is an air of sarcasm. There are women too, but hollywood has a tendency not to showcase their personalities quite as much for some reason........... I've met a few women like this and they are so easy to fall in love with...

So yes, when I speak of these assemblage points I am in fact referring to the context in which they are used by Don Juan Matus.

[music]

This (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?32741-Are-you-a-Trickster) might interest you in regard to the Jester archetype.

Society has a tendency to label those who see "more" as mentally compromised in some way.

[Rantaak]

This (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?32741-Are-you-a-Trickster) might interest you in regard to the Jester archetype.

Society has a tendency to label those who see "more" as mentally compromised in some way.

I read that thread of yours a while back. I tend to separate the trickster archetype from the jester archetype a bit, as tricksters try to manipulate their external world through subterfuge and deceit. Pretty reptilian if you ask me. And by that, I mean that we are first reptile, then man, then elf (with respect to the mind, sexuality and chakra orientation).

So what's different about the jester? Well first off he's got that polarity thing going on. He also advises the rulers of the kingdom. Most importantly, the jester glossoliates truth in such a manner that it is perceived by the unawakened as lies. In doing this, he is a master of language and philosophy. 9 out of 10 people may hear his words as harsh and negative, but one particularly gifted soul will hear the truth and observe only positivity from these words.

Gemini Domini

[blufire]

Because of discussion on this thread about entheogens and Ayahuasca (dmt) I feel compelled to relate a very personal experience I had while on an extended stay in Belize and Guatemala. I traveled there specifically to study rainforest medicinal plants but also to visit and study the Mayan ruins of Tikal.

I realize what I’m about to say is going to make several people upset and angry with me, but this is *Truth*. I do apologize for this.

During my experience in the Guatemalan jungle I struck up a friendship with an American woman who had lived in this remote village for almost twenty years. She was a “buffer” between all us curiosity seekers and travelers and the indigenous people and even though she had lived there a long time and had obviously earned the respect and love of the village people she was still deemed an outsider. (first clue)

Through my conversations with her and my personal experience this is what I learned . . .

The Elders or who many would consider “shaman” who use Ayahuasca (dmt) and other entheogens are very few. There is a very long process of being chosen for this honor, it involves bloodlines and a long involved rite in being chosen. Most importantly the Elders or Shaman have absolutely no desire for personal gain or selfish desires. When they perform the rituals which sometimes includes entheogens or dmt (ayahuasca) it is for the good of all people . . . alive and dead. The American woman told me that the people who desire or covet to hold the position or to become an elder or shaman are never even considered.

When I asked her about the people that traveled to the rainforests to have an authentic Ayahuasca experience and I might add pay rather large sums of money . . . . she smiled a very sad smile. She told me that the herbs and roots used for these people are close and mimic a dmt experience but mostly it is a very wild drug induced trip that generally involves a great deal of violent vomiting or a very bad “trip”. The individuals experience is varied according to their (the villegers) interpretation of how they view that person . . . . if they like you your “experience” is not quite so bad . . . . but if they find you distasteful and arrogant then you are in for a very bad trip. The indigenous people find this amusing and have the opinion that we are very stupid and arrogant.

And they are right . . . . how arrogant are we that we think just because we feel we have the right or desire to these very sacred rituals and magical plants that the knowledge will simply be handed over to us? Just the simple act of “purchasing” the plants, roots and vines to brew Ayahuasca and extract DMT utterly destroys ANY positive, spiritual or magical energy they may have contained . . . .talk about vibrating at a low frequency and THIS is the energy you are consuming.

I also learned that the actual ingredients and brewing process and rituals are very involved and are only known to a VERY select few and are handed down very carefully and selectively.

Most of the vines, plants and roots imported into the US and other countries are these “mimic” ingredients. I learned that the plants that are grow outside of the sacred areas of the rainforests are also considered impotent. Again, if these plants are impotent then how much more powerless are the plants that are grown in greenhouses and specifically for sale and mindless distribution? Even the simple medicinal herbs are highly protected by the indigenous peoples, so how much more do you think are the true entheogens and DMT inducing plants are protected?

The American woman told me that she did know that one of the herbs needed to finalize the activation of the pineal gland absolutely had to be used very very fresh. As in harvested and used within a few hours and also harvested during a certain cycle of growth. The chemical within the leaves breaks down very quickly and has to be extracted and consumed immediately.

I see all the “recipes” and brewing information online and it is ALL for very selfish reasons and desires. These very powerful and magical herbs and they are being used with little to no respect and obviously not for the GOOD of all people as the Elders do but only for personal gain or experience.

I emphatically ask that everyone think many times before using these chemicals and explore carefully your reasoning. I am not devaluing your personal experience but I would like for you to question yourself on the true meaning of why you desire this experience. Most of all please be very responsible with sharing what you feel to be truth with others . . . .if you do feel you have knowledge or wisdom then it becomes your responsibility to discern very carefully who you share that wisdom or knowledge with. That person you share with becomes your responsibility and you will carry within your own soul’s energy their soul’s energy when they act upon the information you give them. A very crude way to explain what I am trying to say is in Star Trek when Spock performs a mind meld with another individual . . . they become a part of each other or melded together.

On a final note I have to say that in my conversations with my friend and the indigenous village women that I very quickly understood that just as the people who come for the ayahuasca experience that my desire to gain personal and selfish knowledge about the rainforest medicinal plants was also an illusion. How arrogant and stupid was I that I felt this ancient wisdom and knowledge should be imparted to me because I wanted it and had paid quite a hefty sum.

I will never forget the hearty toothless good natured laughter of one particular older woman as I voiced the acknowledgment of my dismay and stupidity.

The wisdom I did gain though during my time in Belize and Guatemala and with the people who live in these jungles is much more valuable to me than the knowledge of the medicinal herbs . . . .and I will cherish and honor it always.

[Tony]

Modern human beings seem to think a lot of themselves.
We are incredibly arrogant.

We still cannot see that we are the result of this modern social engineering.
Until we get a bigger picture how on earth can we use free-will and choice!

[DNA]

Goodstuff Blue. You're an excellent writer.

[Mark]

One doesn't learn to mediate between spirit, filter and flesh until one learns to manage their own expressions. You mediate matters between this world, and the others and you can mediate anything on this 3d realm. Currently our filters are managing us, and plant spirit helpers serve in taking those filters down. So many bad trips are experienced becasue we are attempting to journey without taking our filters down. If I were to intiate a journey anywhere by plunking on sunglasses and rigidly maintaining my own home space was the only reality..I'm not going to have a very good trip.

Would you?

I would not know, because I've very carefully stayed away from entheogens. The shamans that I have known in the Mexican and Apache traditions have used them, but I was never invited to do so. I suppose that was for a reason. If, someday, I am invited to do so in a tradition which I am involved in, I will, but only then. When I was heavily into Sweat Lodges, my teacher proclaimed to me that "the Fire chose me". I was training to tend the fire, build it, maintain it for the hours prior to the Sweat, place the grandmothers within the flames, tend them and also to enter and exit the Lodge during the darknesses, bringing the grandmothers within and acting according to the ceremonies. But, life conspired against my following that Path totally at that time and I've not yet been able to return to it the way I wish to. Someday. :)


Shamans who don't acknowledge the influence of plant helpers by knowing precisely what is occuring and judge their use, typically haven't reached a level of perception that allows them many different perspectives of the same event and allowing themselves to be tempered by what they witnessed. They still have filters. Or perhaps this is a way to avoid their own filters, it depends.One begins to realize shaman is an expression not a title.

Are these people really shamans?



We get co dependent on any sort of 'help' regardless if its plant spirit helpers or the downstairs maid. ..lol. Or bottle of Old Grand Dad. Or spirit guides, or angels or anything external of us. The help can become a crutch.

Marijuana and alcohol users along with any other kind of drug use always necessitated certain precautions during Sweats. My teacher could always tell. People who used those drugs, he said, generally had bad spirits with them. Spirits that would be forced out of the bodies during the Sweats. That is why he placed us carefully. He would sit me and others who were experienced next to these people. If they made it through the first darkness it was always because they immediately fell down to the ground to breath the earth. They would cry and complain, often they would leave after a minute or two, or, if they made it through the first darkness, they could not last through the entire Sweat, which generally lasted for hours.

As a former smoker of the marijuana I am familiar with her spirit as well as the amount to which she opens you up to other influences. Never have been much of a drinker.


Plant spirit helpers , help us to drop our filters. We can do this in a highly respected ceremonial setting with exoctic sacred rare plants, but I've seen the lay person ingest a whole lot of grain alcohol (wheat spirit essence) have their filters come down and intiate in mindless ramblings, ravings, and perhaps rage or sorrow. And DT's. Whats the essential difference here?

The presence of qualified teachers? A support group who knows how to respond if there are interactions with external entities?


I see very little difference between the drum and the plant, the drum serves to break down density through vibration. When our body becomes a drum, a high vibrational tool, the drum may not be necessary. It doesn't become bad or useless or a ....crutch. One may retreat to it for their own personal comfort or enjoyment but the drum has become unneccesary as a means to an end..

The drum utilizes the body's own cache of chemicals. Not the spirit of an external entity, i.e. plant/spirit helper. There are traditions where the drum has been utilized for millenna in Africa, in MesoAmerica, in Asia. While being able to access certain states as the Drummer, a certain sense of Self must be maintained in order to continue drumming. There are very specific beats and sounds that are utilized in order to foster certain types of trance for very specific reasons. For those dancing and entering into the trance, the ritual allows for a complete and total release to the trance-state and corresponding experiences. States and experiences that are beyond that of the drummer.


Yup, that's pretty much my experience! (Well, some indigneous plants also ;))

And group work with drumming, meditation, connection with the land etc

:) As you continue your practice, it will be interesting to see how the rituals that you and your peers create and utilize find their utility in a growing community of souls seeking to reconnect with Self and planet. Thank you for sharing!


I used to love to use dancing as a tool to turn off the internal dialogue.

That's called Clubbin'. LOL


I agree with what your saying in terms of moving the awareness around the body. I've never had an array of mastered dance moves at my disposal as displayed by the young man in the earlier video, not even close. He has mastered so many difficult moves and incorporated them together in such a seamless manner, I'm sure the subtelties are lost on some folks, but he takes my breath away. I missed the pop-locking breaking days, I came in on the hip hop scene as a teenager, and changed my moves and incorporated more with the electronica scene. At my best I could liquid walk and heavy hand pretty well.

( ... )

People can express dislike of techno, but, when amplified through industrial strength speaker systems designed with space shuttle like technology, the experience induces a positive and easilly maintained trance state, unique and motivating.

Hm you must be a bit younger than me. The electronica scene really jumped off, as far as I know, back in the early 90s. I was in Belgium, Brussels, when the song "I sit on Acid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_qQLOgcVOw)" came out. There was this club called "The Garage" that we used to go to. Back then this kind of music, Acid, was brand new. The beat could indeed take you into trance ...


I would not think this would be lost on you. Don Juan describes this exact same sensation in the "gate of power", an extremely powerfull technique for stalkers in the "not doing" category.

Ok, confession: I've never really looked at the practical aspect of Casteneda's work. Magical passes and all of that. I assume that is where this "gate of power" you speak of comes from? That is why I asked you about the "assemblage points" and now why I ask you about this one. How does this technique work?


People with two assemblage points basically perceive reality twice as hard as others. This makes them extremely sensitive to the metaphysical as well.

Thank you for the explanation. How do you know if you have two assemblage points yet?


They tend to be really good at leading people (or else they end up with many followers). I know quite a few people afflicted with this condition, myself included. Sometimes it gets diagnosed as bipolar disorder, but what it really boils down to is having a personality that is simultaneously brash and sensitive.

So this is how Don Juan and others could act in the manner that he called "Controlled Folly". Another question then, if you don't mind: what makes Controlled Folly any different from Psychopathy? Don Juan wasn't a big fan of compassion. He seemed to see identifying with one's fellow man or woman as a weakness and a sign of a lack of evolution. Is that how you interpret it?


Because of discussion on this thread about entheogens and Ayahuasca (dmt) I feel compelled to relate a very personal experience I had while on an extended stay in Belize and Guatemala. I traveled there specifically to study rainforest medicinal plants but also to visit and study the Mayan ruins of Tikal.

Thank you so very much for sharing your experience. It is quite relevant. Did you ever get to study those plants? Maybe on your own? Going out in the forest yourself?



I emphatically ask that everyone think many times before using these chemicals and explore carefully your reasoning. I am not devaluing your personal experience but I would like for you to question yourself on the true meaning of why you desire this experience. Most of all please be very responsible with sharing what you feel to be truth with others . . . .if you do feel you have knowledge or wisdom then it becomes your responsibility to discern very carefully who you share that wisdom or knowledge with. That person you share with becomes your responsibility and you will carry within your own soul’s energy their soul’s energy when they act upon the information you give them. A very crude way to explain what I am trying to say is in Star Trek when Spock performs a mind meld with another individual . . . they become a part of each other or melded together.

I love this explanation of the "mind-meld" we do when we share information with others. It's also a good segueway into discussions regarding the nature of knowledge, wisdom and cultural communication. It is interesting that, during these times and upon the Internet, so much information is shared so openly. That, if one wishes, one can study the "Wisdom of the Ages" and become inducted into any tradition one wishes. You can become a Rosicrucian, or a Melchizadekian Wizard, you can learn Enochian Magick or become Wiccan, or even an Egyptian Neophyte and, eventually, the priest or priestess of any god or goddess you choose! What do you think of all of this in the context of what you have written above, and beyond the inclusion of entheogens in those practices?

I personally think that the availability of this information is a good thing, but that the attempt to practice much of it on one's own and without the proper context is very dangerous. Things may be left out that are important, certain safeguards, certain knowledge. Also, accessing alternate realities without the wisdom and experience of those who've actually learned how to do so within a millennia-spanning tradition might lead to opening one's self up to things beyond one's ability to control. I hear and read and see a lot of people saying, 'oh, just get your higher guides protection, just invoke your angels, you'll be alright. you can have all of these experiences but if you don't give your power away, give other entities permission to mess with you, if you don't fear, you'll be fine.'

I wonder about that. Because I've had experiences where I've been 'touched' by entities that I definitely didn't give permission to. I'm protected, I know that for certain, but still ...


I will never forget the hearty toothless good natured laughter of one particular older woman as I voiced the acknowledgment of my dismay and stupidity.

Thank you so much for sharing this experience. :fans:



Modern human beings seem to think a lot of themselves.
We are incredibly arrogant.

We still cannot see that we are the result of this modern social engineering.
Until we get a bigger picture how on earth can we use free-will and choice!

A man of few but powerful words. "We are the result o this modern social engineering". Beyond Western culture and our indoctrination within it, the sub-culture of the "New Age" or "Consciousness" movement can be considered social-engineering as well, as it is a relic or revolutionary response to Christianity's ills, basically, a return to a heavily-modified pagan tradition from many continents and peoples. I saw on some video recently where a woman was talking about the narcissism that is inherent within this movement, how people basically use it as a front or excuse for being selfish. I guess that's social-engineering too and serves the purposes of the PTW in that it further insulates people from Self and Other while they are thinking that they are engaging in unity-consciousness.


Goodstuff Blue. You're an excellent writer.

Ain't she though?!?!

[music]

This (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?32741-Are-you-a-Trickster) might interest you in regard to the Jester archetype.

Society has a tendency to label those who see "more" as mentally compromised in some way.

I read that thread of yours a while back. I tend to separate the trickster archetype from the jester archetype a bit, as tricksters try to manipulate their external world through subterfuge and deceit. Pretty reptilian if you ask me. And by that, I mean that we are first reptile, then man, then elf (with respect to the mind, sexuality and chakra orientation).

So what's different about the jester? Well first off he's got that polarity thing going on. He also advises the rulers of the kingdom. Most importantly, the jester glossoliates truth in such a manner that it is perceived by the unawakened as lies. In doing this, he is a master of language and philosophy. 9 out of 10 people may hear his words as harsh and negative, but one particularly gifted soul will hear the truth and observe only positivity from these words.

Gemini Domini

I would disagree a little, in that I would see the place of the jester, both historically and philosophically, as not archetypal in itself, but as a flavour of the trickster. But then, if we all thought the same, this would be a boring game. I like to differentiate as well between the positive and negative manifestations of any archetype. The jester is as capable of manipulation and deceit as any trickster, using humour, satire and allegory to influence a ruler (for example) to pursue a desired direction, and a jester may also be self-serving, or serving another master. I might also mention that the concealment of truths in language and concepts designed to be appreciated by a minority appears to me to be elitist, and old paradigm. A brash personality, in my opinion, may also stray into arrogance, and once that territory is reached, it becomes well nigh impossible to affect any outcome for the common good, even though the common good may be the desired outcome.

Worth mentioning also, that "walking on water", or healing by laying on of hands, is deceit to those who operate solely from 3D awareness.

[DNA]

Hm you must be a bit younger than me. The electronica scene really jumped off, as far as I know, back in the early 90s. I was in Belgium, Brussels, when the song "I sit on Acid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_qQLOgcVOw)" came out. There was this club called "The Garage" that we used to go to. Back then this kind of music, Acid, was brand new. The beat could indeed take you into trance ...




Ok, confession: I've never really looked at the practical aspect of Casteneda's work. Magical passes and all of that. I assume that is where this "gate of power" you speak of comes from? That is why I asked you about the "assemblage points" and now why I ask you about this one. How does this technique work?


Brosky we are about the same age. I'm 39, I was 19 in 92' when I started with all of this. Different strokes for different folks, it's cool. :)
Germany huh? I bet that was a good time. :)

Truth be told I've never read "magical passes" either. When I was fifteen and reading the Castaneda books, I was also fully involved with martial arts. There was a techniqu called the "iron palm", don't laugh I'm for real. Any way, the practice of attaining this technique was fill a pail with iron pellets cover your skin with this tiger balm stuff and pick your hand up and drop it into the pail as a dead weight.

I know, way too much info right.
The reason I mention this, is because when I read what the "gait of power" was,,,this helped quite a bit in recreating it. The gate of power is descirbed in "journey to ixtlan" I'm pretty sure.


You have to curl your fingers gently as you walk in order to keep your attention on the trail and the surroundings. Your ordinary way of walking is debilitating and you should never carry anything in your hands. If things have to be carried one should use a knapsack or any sort of carrying net or shoulder bag. By forcing the hands into a specific position one is capable of greater stamina and greater awareness.


The full excerpt is here (http://www.american-buddha.com/gait.power.htm)