I know.

[Tony]

I know.

... is precisely the moment i-g-n-o-r-a-n-c-e started.
... is precisely the moment s-u-f-f-e-r-i-n-g started.
... is precisely the moment s-e-p-a-r-a-t-i-o-n started. (separation meaning duality)

When 'I' enters the language, then claiming arrived.
It is a word that alienates. It says, “Look I know!”

Instead of a being (actually just knowing), it has now p-r-o-c-l-a-i-m-e-d itself.

So of course if one does this, others will follow....”Look, I know too!”
So instead of unity, we have conflict - at every possible moment.
...”Look I know better!”

Proclaiming, I know, is a distraction from merely knowing.

The “I” adds conflict to the world.
We become part of the traffic jam, that we constantly complain about.

This is why we go round in circles, and cannot break out.
It begs the question; What sort of world do you want?
It also begs the question; What sort of world are you creating?

We all having this knowing quality.
If we choose we can realise the essence of this knowing.

Or we can just go on repeating, “I know.”

There is much conflict about, because we still do not recognise the true nature of all other beings. We say we do, but in practice this does not happen. We all stumble or get carried away now and again, and hope that others will be understanding and kind. We are stuck here until we truly learn what love is.
Love is being self-less.

Yours, a bit sad this morning,:sad:
Tony

[Davidallany]

Hi Tony, may I suggest using the I knows instead of I know. Notice people that This is not an advice, but only a suggestion.

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

Have the same dilemma every time "i" should be inserted into an english statement... Whenever possible small letter "i" is used :) And check speller gets mad... Can't wait for more civilized times when telepathy will be widely used instead of words separating our true selves...

[DNA]

Wow Tony, you love your exercises in circular logic huh?
I'm betting you like to sing in the shower too? :)
If your writing is any indication of how you speak, then you must really like the sound of your voice. :)
I mean this in all the best of spirit.
Keep up the singing.

[Jenci]

Quote by Rumi



Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment

[Tony]

It is important to see that the main point or any spiritual
practice is to step out of the bureaucracy of ego. This means
stepping out of ego's constant desire for a higher, more
spiritual, more transcendental version of knowledge, religion,
virtue, judgement, comfort or whatever it is that the particular
ego is seeking.

One must step out of spiritual materialism. If we in fact practice it,
then we may eventually find ourselves possessed of a huge
collection of spiritual paths.

We may feel these spiritual collections to be very precious.
We have studied so much.We may have studied Western philosophy
and Oriental philosophy, practiced yoga or perhaps studied
under dozens of great masters.

We believe that we have accumulated a hoard of knowledge.
And yet, having gone through all this, there is still something
to give up. It is extremely mysterious! But unfortunately it
is so. Our vast collection of knowledge and experience are
just part of ego's display, part of the grandiose quality of ego.

We display them to the world and, in doing so, reassure ourselves
that we exist, safe and secure, as spiritual people...
...instead of a beautiful antiques we created a junk shop!

From Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism.
Chogyam Trungpa.

[Jenci]

This is a practical exercise to try.

Next time you are in a conversation with someone and you are just about to offer your opinion on the topic, use the words "I don't know" instead.

This is not very sociable and has a habit of killing conversation but I recommend the silence.
You may perceive the ego struggling to have its say, that's Ok, just stay with "I don't know.

Silence is the realm of "I don't know"

Jeanette

[Eagle]

Tony,
We Know; We are strong together, We are weak together, We are knowing together, We are ignorant together. We are LOVE together

[WhiteFeather]

I no everything, but nuthing!

[The One]

I know what you did last summer

[RMorgan]

Great thread!

I´ve always wondered why the "I" is written in capital, in the English language...It seems like this language was created to promote individualism. Do you know if the capital "I" has always been part of the English language or if it was introduced later?

Anyway, I wonder why, in more than 50 indigenous languages that we have here in Brazil, none of them has words of "I", "you", "me"...I guess they were on the right path, until the European colonization destroyed them all...

Cheers,

Raf.

[Tarka the Duck]

This is a practical exercise to try.

Next time you are in a conversation with someone and you are just about to offer your opinion on the topic, use the words "I don't know" instead.

This is not very sociable and has a habit of killing conversation but I recommend the silence.
You may perceive the ego struggling to have its say, that's Ok, just stay with "I don't know.

Silence is the realm of "I don't know"

Jeanette

Mmmm....sounds a bit extreme to me - don't you find that an unfortunate by-product of such behaviour is making people feel uncomfortable?

Wouldn't you agree that it is definitely possible to engage with others in intelligent conversation without constant projection of oneself - without going as far as remaining silent?

Kathie

[haibane]

LOL. You should wake up and realize English isn't the only language in the universe. English is perhaps the least contextual language I know of, you just gotta stick adverbs for sentence's subjects everywhere. Try Spanish, Czech, Polish (those have mostly declination and/or conjugation for that) or Japanese (pretty much a sign language). It is an annoying aspect of the language for many non-native English speakers, one has to keep thinking about it and reword sentences accordingly, when one isn't in a hurry and cares enough to be bothered ;-)

[Tony]

Language can imprison us.
Every time I open my mouth
or write it projects my ego's
fortress.
I...just ....got...to dig...down to....the foundations...so it all...collapses....this may take some....time!!!

Twice every year this thing called "I" does a silent retreat..........ego's holiday time. Of course it's always there waiting for a good natter.....keep digging you fool!

[Jenci]

This is a practical exercise to try.

Next time you are in a conversation with someone and you are just about to offer your opinion on the topic, use the words "I don't know" instead.

This is not very sociable and has a habit of killing conversation but I recommend the silence.
You may perceive the ego struggling to have its say, that's Ok, just stay with "I don't know.

Silence is the realm of "I don't know"

Jeanette

Mmmm....sounds a bit extreme to me - don't you find that an unfortunate by-product of such behaviour is making people feel uncomfortable?

Wouldn't you agree that it is definitely possible to engage with others in intelligent conversation without constant projection of oneself - without going as far as remaining silent?

Kathie

Extreme ? .....saying "I don't know". :)

I was only making a suggestion for something to "try", Kathie. Nothing more than that. People can take or leave it as they will but don't knock it until you have tried it, lol. It's an effective way to recognise the ego, if you are not aware of it.

Very often I say "I don't know" when people ask me what I think.

I say it not to make them feel uncomfortable but because it is the truth.
I just don't know.
What else is there to say?
When ideas, opinions, beliefs and concepts are no longer here, I don't get to choose to say anything else.

Of course, we can have intelligent conversations without the egoic sense of sense but these conversations arise out of the silence. You see how this works :)

Jeanette

[Tarka the Duck]

This is a practical exercise to try.

Next time you are in a conversation with someone and you are just about to offer your opinion on the topic, use the words "I don't know" instead.

This is not very sociable and has a habit of killing conversation but I recommend the silence.
You may perceive the ego struggling to have its say, that's Ok, just stay with "I don't know.

Silence is the realm of "I don't know"

Jeanette

Mmmm....sounds a bit extreme to me - don't you find that an unfortunate by-product of such behaviour is making people feel uncomfortable?

Wouldn't you agree that it is definitely possible to engage with others in intelligent conversation without constant projection of oneself - without going as far as remaining silent?

Kathie

Extreme ? .....saying "I don't know". :)

I was only making a suggestion for something to "try", Kathie. Nothing more than that. People can take or leave it as they will but don't knock it until you have tried it, lol. It's an effective way to recognise the ego, if you are not aware of it.

Very often I say "I don't know" when people ask me what I think.

I say it not to make them feel uncomfortable but because it is the truth.
I just don't know.
What else is there to say?
When ideas, opinions, beliefs and concepts are no longer here, I don't get to choose to say anything else.

Of course, we can have intelligent conversations without the egoic sense of sense but these conversations arise out of the silence. You see how this works :)

Jeanette

Misunderstanding...I was referring to the "not very sociable" and "killing conversation" bit.
Kathie

[Tony]

We are not vegetables, we are smelly things running about on two legs.
Most of us stupidly think we are going somewhere, the rest think they
have arrived.

It's good to talk, to find out about one another, to empathise and swap smells.

"He who is without smell, shall cast the first stone."

[sshenry]

A fascinating exercise - try going for an entire day without using the word "I" - it really brings home just how often we use it, and how "i" centered we really are! :)


Thanks for this Tony :)

¤=[Post Update]=¤

P.S. Why are you sad?

[Jenci]

This is a practical exercise to try.

Next time you are in a conversation with someone and you are just about to offer your opinion on the topic, use the words "I don't know" instead.

This is not very sociable and has a habit of killing conversation but I recommend the silence.
You may perceive the ego struggling to have its say, that's Ok, just stay with "I don't know.

Silence is the realm of "I don't know"

Jeanette

Mmmm....sounds a bit extreme to me - don't you find that an unfortunate by-product of such behaviour is making people feel uncomfortable?

Wouldn't you agree that it is definitely possible to engage with others in intelligent conversation without constant projection of oneself - without going as far as remaining silent?

Kathie

Extreme ? .....saying "I don't know". :)

I was only making a suggestion for something to "try", Kathie. Nothing more than that. People can take or leave it as they will but don't knock it until you have tried it, lol. It's an effective way to recognise the ego, if you are not aware of it.

Very often I say "I don't know" when people ask me what I think.

I say it not to make them feel uncomfortable but because it is the truth.
I just don't know.
What else is there to say?
When ideas, opinions, beliefs and concepts are no longer here, I don't get to choose to say anything else.

Of course, we can have intelligent conversations without the egoic sense of sense but these conversations arise out of the silence. You see how this works :)

Jeanette

Misunderstanding...I was referring to the "not very sociable" and "killing conversation" bit.
Kathie


Hi Kathie,
Sorry didn't realise you meant that.

Actually I don't think that killing the conversation or not being sociable is extreme either.

There's a question to this - Who needs to be sociable? Who needs the conversation?
These are our desires and needs driven by the ego.


It's OK for people who have some awareness of the ego but the vast majority of people don't and these are the people I am writing for.

Doing something which breaks from the conditioned egoic response, stirs the ego up into a struggle and its in the silence that we can get some depth of consciousness which allows us to be Aware of the ego.

On a one-to-one I have suggested far more extremes than this such as "Shut up!" and if that doesn't work "Put your hand over your mouth and shut up!"
My ego doesn't understand this. How could a spiritual awakened person speak like this? Well, in some ways I have become more outspoken since awakening. The concept of how a spiritual awakened or enlightened person behaves, is just that. A concept of the mind.


And when the person who has been shut up starts laughing and says "It was just my head, not me", then I share in their joy with them.
This is unconditional in movement.


I interact regularly with people who will literally die if they don't get out of their heads and all their ego stuff.
Waking up to our true nature is the purpose of our lives.


Something just moves me to do whatever needs to be done and very often it is talking in simple, practical terms. It's not about being popular anymore.

Jeanette

¤=[Post Update]=¤


A fascinating exercise - try going for an entire day without using the word "I" - it really brings home just how often we use it, and how "i" centered we really are! :)


How do I do this?

;)


Jeanette

[christian]

When I say "I know ***", this is just as if would say "the spoon".
I say those words, although I know, there is no spoon.

[Tony]

A fascinating exercise - try going for an entire day without using the word "I" - it really brings home just how often we use it, and how "i" centered we really are! :)


Thanks for this Tony :)

¤=[Post Update]=¤

P.S. Why are you sad?

Dear SS

Thank you for asking...unfortunately, I do see the forum as a family and we are a rare breed on this earth, and should value one another to the utmost. Doesn't matter what colour you are, how much you smell (or what of), whether you are playing a game or not...I see this as an interactive, collective process, and every day, some sort of evolution is taking place.
That's why I feel sad that Fred left, and Rob, and Anno, and Lily, and Manny...and others...and more whom I know are thinking of leaving. We have had lots of ups and downs together, and I can't tell you how much it has meant to me that we are growing together - even though we may not always agree.
So that is why I am sad.

Love
Tony

[Arrowwind]

The way it is experienced through my reality is that this body and consciousness contained with in is a individuation of great spirit. I is for individuation. It is part of the cosmic plan to individualize. As point of light of the greater spirit we accumulate knowlege through expeience. There is all kinds of knowledge. Knowledge of the mother earth, the sky, and their very minute workings and grander schemes, there is knowledge of animals and humans, children and the elders, there is expressing and creation in every movement, every breath.

Being here for knowledge and experiece is the pathway to the creators greater unfoldment, the desire and impulse of the great spirit that runs within each one of its manefested points of light, wether a rock, a plant and animal or a human. All travel the same medicine trail of unfoldment and awakening with different revelations at each step of unfoldment.

It is not that we think in terms or I or we or us that is of issue. With skill we can shift all these tools of framing reality to see though a new perspective. Perspective brings to all of creation a new way of recreating the great spirit.

For humanity there is only one goal. Non attachment. For as attached as you are to fear, to self loathing, to beauty, to joy, to sadness, to glamour, to greed to remorse, so attached is ones perspective and one has limited the flow and creative power of the great spirit and the potentials of all creativity.

at least this is how i see it today though my eyes wide shut.

[Zillah]

I Am the I in all that Is <3

[Tony]

I Am the I in all that Is <3

Could you explain a little more?

[Zillah]

I Am the I in all that Is <3

Could you explain a little more?

You mean, get cerebral about it? ;)

I was being a silly little wordsmith, simply stating that I Am a part of all that IS - meaning, oneness.

...and that the "I" can be recognized as One, if the vision is broad enough.

<3

[Tony]

I Am the I in all that Is <3

Could you explain a little more?

You mean, get cerebral about it? ;)

I was being a silly little wordsmith, simply stating that I Am a part of all that IS - meaning, oneness.

...and that the "I" can be recognized as One, if the vision is broad enough.

<3

I am part of all that is not.

See, we are having a conversation!

[buckminster fuller]

A really complex subject..

Two observations :

1) It's not the "I know" , it's what comes afterwards that defines the speaker's view. "I know" is not only a way to impose one's view of the world. It's the will to share experiences and thoughts. I prefer the "I think" or the "I suppose" for sure, but beliefs start there too, in the "I know". It's like the "I am what I am", which can be viewed as the mere definition of individualism, but also as the recognition that I am powerless in the grand order of things.

2) As for the "I", I'm glad it's there, I definitely need it to communicate in a sensible way over controversial subjects. The "you" is dangerous, it leads to judgements and speculation. One can only talk for himself.

[Jenci]

Some more conversation.........from The End of Your World by Adyashanti
Interview with the author



Tami Simon : You suggested we asked ourselves, "What do I know for certain?" I would ask that question of you. What do you know for certain?

Adya: Only that I am; that's it. One thing. In so many senses I am the dumbest person on the planet. Literally. Everything else, to me, is in a state of flux or uncertainty. Everything else we only dream what we know. I don't know what should happen. I don't know if we are evolving or devolving; I don't know any of that.

But the thing is, that I know that I don't know. And contrary to what you might think, that knowledge hasn't disempowered me. I haven't gone to sit in a cave in the Himalayas or to just sit on the couch and say, "Oh well. There's nothing for me to do, because I don't know anything."

Quite the contrary - life has a part to play through me, and so I play that part. I'm in union with the part life plays through me. The part changes all the times, moment to moment, but that's what I'm in union with. I'm no longer arguing with life - it gets to plays its part through me, and now it gets to play its part with agreement, instead of disagreement.

And it seems that when we are in the deepest state of agreement, the part life plays through us is very satisfying; it's literally everything we ever wanted, even though it doesn't look like anything we ever wanted.

[Tony]

A really complex subject..

Two observations :

1) It's not the "I know" , it's what comes afterwards that defines the speaker's view. "I know" is not only a way to impose one's view of the world. It's the will to share experiences and thoughts. I prefer the "I think" or the "I suppose" for sure, but beliefs start there too, in the "I know". It's like the "I am what I am", which can be viewed as the mere definition of individualism, but also as the recognition that I am powerless in the grand order of things.

2) As for the "I", I'm glad it's there, I definitely need it to communicate in a sensible way over controversial subjects. The "you" is dangerous, it leads to judgements and speculation. One can only talk for himself.

One can write or talk perfectly well without the use of "I".
When people use "I" they are personalising the subject,
they are generally trying to get the subject back onto themselves.

This is precisely how ego works.

Tony

[buckminster fuller]

A really complex subject..

Two observations :

1) It's not the "I know" , it's what comes afterwards that defines the speaker's view. "I know" is not only a way to impose one's view of the world. It's the will to share experiences and thoughts. I prefer the "I think" or the "I suppose" for sure, but beliefs start there too, in the "I know". It's like the "I am what I am", which can be viewed as the mere definition of individualism, but also as the recognition that I am powerless in the grand order of things.

2) As for the "I", I'm glad it's there, I definitely need it to communicate in a sensible way over controversial subjects. The "you" is dangerous, it leads to judgements and speculation. One can only talk for himself.

One can write or talk perfectly well without the use of "I".
When people use "I" they are personalising the subject,
they are generally trying to get the subject back onto themselves.

This is precisely how ego works.

Tony

"I" would view it in a more optimistic way. Ego is not free from intents. It's not the wild, negative beast many are trying to depict here. It's just a tool. A survival tool.

[Tony]

A really complex subject..

Two observations :

1) It's not the "I know" , it's what comes afterwards that defines the speaker's view. "I know" is not only a way to impose one's view of the world. It's the will to share experiences and thoughts. I prefer the "I think" or the "I suppose" for sure, but beliefs start there too, in the "I know". It's like the "I am what I am", which can be viewed as the mere definition of individualism, but also as the recognition that I am powerless in the grand order of things.

2) As for the "I", I'm glad it's there, I definitely need it to communicate in a sensible way over controversial subjects. The "you" is dangerous, it leads to judgements and speculation. One can only talk for himself.

One can write or talk perfectly well without the use of "I".
When people use "I" they are personalising the subject,
they are generally trying to get the subject back onto themselves.

This is precisely how ego works.

Tony

"I" would view it in a more optimistic way. Ego is not free from intents. It's not the wild, negative beast many are trying to depict here. It's just a tool.

I wrote a thread recently 'In praise of ego."
Ego is merely consciousness clinging to a mental image of itself.
It gives rise to the term ego-clinging.

Ego is intent on maintaining a self image...a seeming reality.

[buckminster fuller]

A really complex subject..

Two observations :

1) It's not the "I know" , it's what comes afterwards that defines the speaker's view. "I know" is not only a way to impose one's view of the world. It's the will to share experiences and thoughts. I prefer the "I think" or the "I suppose" for sure, but beliefs start there too, in the "I know". It's like the "I am what I am", which can be viewed as the mere definition of individualism, but also as the recognition that I am powerless in the grand order of things.

2) As for the "I", I'm glad it's there, I definitely need it to communicate in a sensible way over controversial subjects. The "you" is dangerous, it leads to judgements and speculation. One can only talk for himself.

One can write or talk perfectly well without the use of "I".
When people use "I" they are personalising the subject,
they are generally trying to get the subject back onto themselves.

This is precisely how ego works.

Tony

"I" would view it in a more optimistic way. Ego is not free from intents. It's not the wild, negative beast many are trying to depict here. It's just a tool.

I wrote a thread recently 'In praise of ego."
Ego is merely consciousness clinging to a mental image of itself.
It gives rise to the term ego-clinging.

Ego is intent on maintaining a self image...a seeming reality.

Yes and no, in that you don't get a full exhaustive grab of it. You make it sound like in every case it's a bad thing. We would all mentally collapse without it.

[another bob]

Some more conversation.........from The End of Your World by Adyashanti
Interview with the author



Tami Simon : You suggested we asked ourselves, "What do I know for certain?" I would ask that question of you. What do you know for certain?

Adya: Only that I am; that's it. One thing. In so many senses I am the dumbest person on the planet. Literally. Everything else, to me, is in a state of flux or uncertainty. Everything else we only dream what we know. I don't know what should happen. I don't know if we are evolving or devolving; I don't know any of that.

But the thing is, that I know that I don't know. And contrary to what you might think, that knowledge hasn't disempowered me. I haven't gone to sit in a cave in the Himalayas or to just sit on the couch and say, "Oh well. There's nothing for me to do, because I don't know anything."

Quite the contrary - life has a part to play through me, and so I play that part. I'm in union with the part life plays through me. The part changes all the times, moment to moment, but that's what I'm in union with. I'm no longer arguing with life - it gets to plays its part through me, and now it gets to play its part with agreement, instead of disagreement.

And it seems that when we are in the deepest state of agreement, the part life plays through us is very satisfying; it's literally everything we ever wanted, even though it doesn't look like anything we ever wanted.




An excerpt from "I Am That",
To Know that You do not Know, is True Knowledge


Q: On the screen of my mind images follow each other in endless succession. There is nothing permanent about me.

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj: Have a better look at yourself. The screen is there -- it does not change. The light shines steadily. Only the film in between keeps moving and causes pictures to appear. You may call the film -- destiny (prarabdha).

Q: What creates destiny?

M: Ignorance is the cause of inevitability.

Q: Ignorance of what?

M: Ignorance of yourself primarily. Also, ignorance of the true nature of things, of their causes and effects. You look round without understanding and take appearances for reality. You believe you know the world and yourself -- but it is only your ignorance that makes you say: I know. Begin with the admission that you do not know and start from there.

There is nothing that can help the world more than your putting an end to ignorance. Then, you need not do anything in particular to help the world. Your very being is a help, action or no action.

Q: How can ignorance be known? To know ignorance presupposes knowledge.

M: Quite right. The very admission: 'I am ignorant' is the dawn of knowledge. An ignorant man is ignorant of his ignorance. You can say that ignorance does not exist, for the moment it is seen it is no more. Therefore, you may call it unconsciousness or blindness. All you see around and within you is what you do not know and do not understand, without even knowing that you do not know and do not understand. To know that you do not know and do not understand is true knowledge, the knowledge of an humble heart.

Q: Yes, Christ said: Blessed are the poor in spirit...

M: Put it as you like; the fact is that knowledge is of ignorance only. You know that you do not know.

Q: Will ignorance ever end?

M: What is wrong with not knowing? You need not know all. Enough to know what you need to know. The rest can look after itself, without your knowing how it does it. What is important is that your unconscious does not work against the conscious, that there is integration on all levels. To know is not so very important.

Q: What you say is correct psychologically. But when it comes to knowing others, knowing the world, my knowing that I do not know does not help much.

M: Once you are inwardly integrated, outer knowledge comes to you spontaneously. At every moment of your life you know what you need to know. In the ocean of the universal mind all knowledge is contained; it is yours on demand. Most of it you may never need to know -- but it is yours all the same.

As with knowledge, so it is with power.

Whatever you feel needs be done happens unfailingly. No doubt, God attends to this business of managing the universe; but He is glad to have some help. When the helper is selfless and intelligent, all the powers of the universe are for him to command.

Q: Even the blind powers of nature?

M: There are no blind powers. Consciousness is power. Be aware of what needs be done and it will be done. Only keep alert -- and quiet. Once you reach your destination and Know your real nature, your existence becomes a blessing to all. You may not know, nor will the world know, yet the help radiates. There are people in the world who do more good than all the statesmen and philanthropists put together. They radiate light and peace with no intention or knowledge. When others tell them about the miracles they worked, they also are wonder struck. Yet, taking nothing as their own, they are neither proud, nor do they crave for reputation. They are just unable to desire anything for themselves, not even the joy of helping others knowing that God is good they are at peace.

Blessings!

[Jenci]

I don't exclude any words. I, we, you, me, us are all included as the One, just spontaneous expressions in the moment.

The words have no effect on my true self - neither do they add to it or subtract from it.

Does Being need to avoid using a word?
Or is it doing?

Jeanette

[Tarka the Duck]

A really complex subject..

Two observations :

1) It's not the "I know" , it's what comes afterwards that defines the speaker's view. "I know" is not only a way to impose one's view of the world. It's the will to share experiences and thoughts. I prefer the "I think" or the "I suppose" for sure, but beliefs start there too, in the "I know". It's like the "I am what I am", which can be viewed as the mere definition of individualism, but also as the recognition that I am powerless in the grand order of things.

2) As for the "I", I'm glad it's there, I definitely need it to communicate in a sensible way over controversial subjects. The "you" is dangerous, it leads to judgements and speculation. One can only talk for himself.

One can write or talk perfectly well without the use of "I".
When people use "I" they are personalising the subject,
they are generally trying to get the subject back onto themselves.

This is precisely how ego works.

Tony

"I" would view it in a more optimistic way. Ego is not free from intents. It's not the wild, negative beast many are trying to depict here. It's just a tool.

I wrote a thread recently 'In praise of ego."
Ego is merely consciousness clinging to a mental image of itself.
It gives rise to the term ego-clinging.

Ego is intent on maintaining a self image...a seeming reality.

Yes and no, in that you don't get a full exhaustive grab of it. You make it sound like in every case it's a bad thing. We would all mentally collapse without it.

I don't really see how you can think Tony is saying the ego is bad, when, as he told you, he wrote a thread a couple of days ago called "In Praise of the Ego"!!
If you are interested, I have pasted it here:

In Praise of the Ego

Wonderful things, egos.
Where would we be without them?

Er...but where is this ego?
Can it be found?
Does it actually exist?
Ego has been given rather bad press over the years:
what exactly is this ego?

Ego is merely - Consciousness clinging.
We are never without consciousness.
It just needs to be freed from all limitation.

Ego has been made synonymous with sin.
This is a control mechanism.
When you are accused of having an ego...be proud!
Have a big fat ego!
Feel it throughly!
No more guilt!
Laugh in the face of the accusations!

The ego/sin question has been made far too vague -
it has been shrouded in mystical complexity.
Our nature is awareness: that is consciousness.
When this consciousness fixates onto some thing, it limits itself.
So when two individuals with fixated consciousness meet,
they are bound to come into conflict!

This does not have to be a problem.
Merely notice the stance we are taking,
and allow the other the same right.

Of course, this raises the problem of two people with no egos
facing one another....what do they talk about?!

There sometimes seem to be problems on the forum.
One may wonder what sort of stance to take on these issues.
Everyone seems to be right...from their points of view.

Egos fly all over the place!
This doesn't have to be a problem, as it is to be expected:
we are not enlightened yet.
We are going to have a bit of ego clinging until the very last moment
of being sentient!
We are going to have an ego until that moment when those damn demons
have no effect on us whatsoever, and go off to bother some other poor sod
(who will then have to go through the same process)!

And how do we free consciousness from all limitation?
Simply recognise that its essence is pure!
Consciousness, at that moment, becomes totally lucid.

And at that moment, you fall into love.
And you will never come out again!
It's a sense of relief...“I no longer need to hold on to anything,
because everything can be known.”

Of course, here I'm only guessing - but it's bloody good guess!



Tony

[Davidallany]

The i was just thinking of a solution. If someone has lots of gold, that one will not just drop it and forget about it, but most likely guard it and cherish it. Now if the person in the example find ways to help others by giving a little bit to many around, maybe other wealthy will learn as well. This is a very simplistic example, of course balancing many aspects of the situation is very important, so one can't be too selfish, emotional, spiritual, analytical etc..

Keep the i, but instead of using it to love and defend one or two people, why not use it to truly care for everyone equally?

[Jenci]

Maharaj: Once you are inwardly integrated, outer knowledge comes to you spontaneously. At every moment of your life you know what you need to know. In the ocean of the universal mind all knowledge is contained; it is yours on demand. Most of it you may never need to know -- but it is yours all the same.



I've got to hand it to the expert, he knows what he is talking about :)

That's a good reminder - at every moment of our lives we know what we need to know. Now I can relax.
Jeanette

[NancyV]

I am very comfortable being an individual with an ego here in a body. I have no need to deny the "I" that I am while I am partially separated from Source. As long as we are partially separated and not completely merged with Source we have a less complete EGO. In Latin EGO means I AM. God or Source is also known as the great I AM.

When I am out of body traveling through other dimensions I (and my wonderful EGO) grow LARGER and LARGER through merging with more parts of myself until we are all that is, the complete I AM, the Source. As I step down into the creation my ego becomes less and less powerful until I find myself again in this tiny prison of a human body here on the earth plane, largely disempowered. I think we know that we are part of oneness and yearn to again be whole. While in a body the vast majority of us do not feel complete so we tend to promote our ego as much as possible to make us feel more whole, more powerful, since we innately KNOW we are powerful.

In my opinion denying our ego is a step in the wrong direction and a misunderstanding of what the ego is. I know the majority of spiritual paths disagree with me but I cannot deny what I have directly experienced just to agree with others theories. Perhaps I also just explain it differently but I think spiritual practices that teach methods to overcome or deny the ego are largely counter productive. This almost always leads to a feeling of failure or loss of self worth when one sees that they cannot completely deny their ego while in a body.

Of course many egos run amok but I usually see an overly egotistical person as someone who is yearning for their true power and has mistaken ideas about what is truly powerful. As far as why this whole creation thing is going on and the details of it....while I'm in my body I am comfortable with not knowing, but the whole process is perfection when I'm out of body and merged with Source.

[Anchor]

Denying the ego is practically impossible anyway, its too clever to let you.

There are two parts to me that are recognized:

1) The individual that I am
2) Everything else around me

My ego lives in the first part and helps me recognize the difference.

I know, intellectually that I am in both parts.

I know the second part (the bits I pay attention to) are useful mirrors of the first part.

I label the second part the co-created reality that we all take part in creating.

And I know that despite all the forgoing thinking that we are all one, that is by faith and that is what guides me.

[Tony]

Something that seems to be transpiring is that we may have different views of the same thing, and a different way of describing it. The same thing can have many meanings, depending on individual experience.

Knowing in this case is awareness. One could claim, "I am aware!" or merely be aware. There is a great difference between the two. In Buddhism there are four types of"I". A practitioners works with a "mere I", and would never claim to have pure awareness. Though an advanced practitioner may get glimpses of pure awareness.

The other I's are ...self cherishing I, self centred I and social I.

There is still much work to be done in the garden....for some of us!

[Jenci]

Ego needs time - past or future, so one way to identify if the ego is driving the agenda is to see if it is about something in the past or future. What I should say?....is future.

I am an alcoholic and I reguarly attend meetings where I speak to a room full of people and state, "I am an alcoholic".

After awakening I realised there was no "I" and no "alcoholic" so I then wondered how I could say, "I'm an alcoholic" because it wouldn't be true.

I went along to meetings and said it to join in but my mind was saying that I shouldn't be saying this anymore. There was resistance.

And then it was just seen, this was the ego again with the new identity of no "I" and that resistance is ego too.

These days I go to meetings and I say that I am an alcoholic and I also tell lots of little stories about my life, to an audience of people all looking at me and nodding their heads in agreement. It's the perfect environment for the ego to thrive but it is no longer the ego speaking.

I don't plan what I am going to say - it happens spontaneously and usually when I finish, I have no recollection of what I have said. It's gone. There's no commentary on how well I did or what I should or shouldn't have said. There's no time.

Likewise I have no problems with telling a personal story about me here. I don't mind how it is received or perceived either. It's just a story. It's not what I am.

The quote that Bob posted earlier was from Maharaj's book called - I am That.

Jeanette

[greybeard]

Thanks for this Jeanette
Had the same thoughts for the same reason and came to the same conclusion.

Im a recovering alcoholic --- I see it now as a body allergy + mental and emotional past insecurity.
While Im not mental Lol
I respect the body and all that comes with it.
So AA's twelve steps, a day at a time, takes care of that.

Chris

[Jenci]

Something that seems to be transpiring is that we may have different views of the same thing, and a different way of describing it. The same thing can have many meanings, depending on individual experience.




Yes, exactly, Tony. What we are speaking about, is prior to all words. Words are inadequate here - just different expressions about what we speak. Perhaps if our chosen subject was ETs or reptiles we would make more sense :)

Ultimately we realise that all the expressions, are the One - and we find we agree with all the different views.
Great topic!
Jeanette

[Tony]

Ego needs time - past or future, so one way to identify if the ego is driving the agenda is to see if it is about something in the past or future. What I should say?....is future.

I am an alcoholic and I reguarly attend meetings where I speak to a room full of people and state, "I am an alcoholic".

After awakening I realised there was no "I" and no "alcoholic" so I then wondered how I could say, "I'm an alcoholic" because it wouldn't be true.

I went along to meetings and said it to join in but my mind was saying that I shouldn't be saying this anymore. There was resistance.

And then it was just seen, this was the ego again with the new identity of no "I" and that resistance is ego too.

These days I go to meetings and I say that I am an alcoholic and I also tell lots of little stories about my life, to an audience of people all looking at me and nodding their heads in agreement. It's the perfect environment for the ego to thrive but it is no longer the ego speaking.

I don't plan what I am going to say - it happens spontaneously and usually when I finish, I have no recollection of what I have said. It's gone. There's no commentary on how well I did or what I should or shouldn't have said. There's no time.

Likewise I have no problems with telling a personal story about me here. I don't mind how it is received or perceived either. It's just a story. It's not what I am.

The quote that Bob posted earlier was from Maharaj's book called - I am That.

Jeanette

Dear Jeanette,
I appreciate what you have just said. I hope we can get to know one another better.

Kind regards,
Tony

[Jenci]

You're welcome, Tony.
Likewise.....although, don't we already know each other :)

Jeanette

[jorr lundstrom]

LOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eul1C-Ytxo&feature=related

[Jenci]

Thank you Jorr for that video. I hadn't seen it before. In the world of duality - which is not a mistake, lol - that is one very Divine man. He makes me laugh and he makes me cry.

Jeanette

[TraineeHuman]

More often than not when a person says: “I know”, I believe they mean it in a personalised sense. Any kind of personalisation – taking something personally -- is 100% ego, unfortunately. I would say the only exception is that if someone is protecting the survival or health of their body, that’s a type of “personal’ that’s necessary and true.

I would like to suggest that “understand” is a much more valid word to use than “know”. In all the traditional Indian and Chinese religions, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Jainism, Tantra and so on, in all their varieties, understanding is considered the highest virtue, and "compassion" the second highest virtue. The word “compassion” is used because the word “lurv” has been so abused and romanticised in the West.

Understanding is something that comes to a person, rather than being that person’s creation or somehow their property. Understanding also leaves lots of “breathing space” for whatever a person doesn’t know. Understanding is like an open question, while knowledge (and even knowing) is like a closed question -- limiting the options instead of opening them up. As Einstein said: “The more I come to know, the more I realise how much I don’t know.”

[DeDukshyn]

Even if we could just all move from "I know" to "I experience" - we could shift our experiences to ones based in the present moment. Give me that and I'll be happy enough for a while. ;)

[Darla Ken Pearce]

Calling forth a group hug! "I know..." Tony is sad because Avalon recently demonstrated ~ very clearly ~ that the majority doesn't rule or have any influence whatsoever. Our opinions, our votes, our hearts, our feelings, and our support don't count for much of anything or, so it has felt. Lord Sid is not allowed to be with us. We voted and management vetoed those votes and it felt like we were marginalized. There are legitimate feelings of loss. Let us just acknowledge them now in the clear light of day without whispering.

Some of us didn't even bother to vote once we saw how slanted the playing field had become. Like many opinions about "Occupiers" those in control seem to believe we are invisible "enemies" instead of "members" and therefore, worthy of evesdropping and surveillance as such. Dark shadows were invoked and came forth and manifested.

Management seemed not to hear our voice or care once they did. A spirit of belittlement and unkindness gained purchase as it never has before and it spread quickly throughout the forums on Avalon. We feel this strongly. There is a nastiness to it not worthy of us.

So, how do we reconcile what feels to be "not okay" so that it is "okay" enough that we can continue to contribute and be a part of this Avalon community? These recent events require careful consideration but these considerations have come along with a total disbelief that such an outright injustice, such an event could happen here to someone so loved and cherished. And in this fact, lies a key.

It seemed as if one Mod incited this event over a single expression (nugget) but it was only the tip of the iceberg involving real control issues, leadership, popularity, and animosity. Like a wildfire when ill winds blow, things quickly accelerated out of control. Avalon become very small indeed and ego reared it's not-so-divine masculine head for all to witness. Even I had an instant desire to return to the wilderness of Salmon, Idaho, where I once lived more openly and kindly among the wolves and other predators. At least then, I knew where I stood and it wasn't arbitrary or subject to whim, foul tempers, ridicule, or disbelief. It was so straight forward, I could throw Purina Dog chow out for safe passage among the wolves. Not so here even when I blow kisses and hugs. No safe passage seems possible ; )

Lily dashed her body and membership on the rocks of an unflinching management team and we each recoiled in horror and disbelief. They wished to prove a point, and they surely did, but the point was not worthy of them. As we watched events unfold, we lost our trust in something important here. Balance, kindness, reasonable doubt and even-handedness. Many have been floundering, trying to put their finger on exactly what's been lost and how exactly we can get it back.

In light of current events, it's important to remember all issues invoking an anger response are the "stuff" of the 3D Ego/Fear matrix. It's an abyss and we need to back away when these tell-tale signs appear. Don't make decisions in the heat of passion. They applies to all of us. No exceptions. Membership, management, lurkers or trolls.

Here's a suggestion:

A committee of three to six "civilian" members to be appointed, volunteer, or perhaps be voted in as a "Court of Last Resort" on Avalon with the power to overturn decisions made in anger or ego, simply as a "review" and "reconciliation" as this aspect has been missing in action and is certainly needed now. In this manner, we can prevent such a thing from happening again and provide some form of redress for it ~ if it does.

This is something at least worthy of serious consideration. I'd like to put this idea forward now as a redress of grievances. We are either a part of Avalon or we aren't and whichever it is, we need to know this clearly and put forward our full support as we morph into our future higher selves or stay bogged down in slushy mud and goop.

We can take comfort in knowing that the heart of Avalon lives on inside of us, no matter who is here, who is booted, who is currently running things, or how things may appear.

But for the present moment, it would seem, we are firmly locked in 3D drama and lower dimensional constructs. And this is not good, my friends. No doubt about it. We can and must do better and be kinder and this is how I propose we move forward and back into the light.

While I have no further words to act as a healing balm for our feelings of loss and bereavement over this turn of events ~ I can assure you once again ~ there is no separation, it's an illusion and it's okay to be sad, we all are feeling this along with you, Pie'n'eal. We did not get to say goodbye to Sid. Like death that part always hurts the most. It's like an unmanned drone came in and blew him away or so it felt.

On the bright side, once Avalon, itself, and it's management moves out of the 3D darkness into the light and love of 4th and 5th dimensions, Lord Sid and the others will be back ~ as they will cease to pose a threat or instill a fear response in others. This will demonstrate real progress and enlightenment. This is, after all, why we are here, isn't it?

Those fear responses, we are witnessing ~ all come from lower frequencies but we have the ability to mature, and to rise above them at will. Rest assured. It will be the clearest sign of progress and we will either see it begin here or not. Stay tuned. Much love! xoxox

P.S. In closing:

In case it isn't obvious to you, I love Avalon and am grateful for all the time and loving care I've found here. This wouldn't have been possible without the good graces and generosity of creator, Bill Ryan to whom I will always be most grateful and owe a debt of gratitude for this experience and opportunity to share as a part of the larger Avalon community. Many mods have been kind to me, also, and to them I say "thanks!" Be well...

[music]

All things are scales of diminishing and increasing complexity at one and the same time.

Is. Am. Are.

Are. Am. Is.

The "I" is the waystation between both poles of awareness, where we stop to take a breath. As long as we don't see this as the destination, all is well.

[alienHunter]

I know.

... is precisely the moment i-g-n-o-r-a-n-c-e started.
... is precisely the moment s-u-f-f-e-r-i-n-g started.
... is precisely the moment s-e-p-a-r-a-t-i-o-n started. (separation meaning duality)

When 'I' enters the language, then claiming arrived.
It is a word that alienates. It says, “Look I know!”

Instead of a being (actually just knowing), it has now p-r-o-c-l-a-i-m-e-d itself.

So of course if one does this, others will follow....”Look, I know too!”
So instead of unity, we have conflict - at every possible moment.
...”Look I know better!”

Proclaiming, I know, is a distraction from merely knowing.

The “I” adds conflict to the world.
We become part of the traffic jam, that we constantly complain about.

This is why we go round in circles, and cannot break out.
It begs the question; What sort of world do you want?
It also begs the question; What sort of world are you creating?

We all having this knowing quality.
If we choose we can realise the essence of this knowing.

Or we can just go on repeating, “I know.”

There is much conflict about, because we still do not recognise the true nature of all other beings. We say we do, but in practice this does not happen. We all stumble or get carried away now and again, and hope that others will be understanding and kind. We are stuck here until we truly learn what love is.
Love is being self-less.

Yours, a bit sad this morning,:sad:
Tony

Brings to mind one of my favorite 3 stooges jokes... "I don't think, I know!"..."I don't think you know either."