Do we need to forgive everyone?

[Rollo]

Do we need forgive everyone, even really bad people like killers, psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles etc. to stop the circle of karma?

[Kristin]

No. It's not your job to redeem another who is not capable of empathy or change. It's not your Karma either.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

[gardunk]

what is most important in forgiving is that we forgive ourselves/ circles are spirals in and out back and forth

[Lifebringer]

Yep if you don't experience total forgivingness, can you hope your tresspasses whatever they may be, to be forgiven by those more experienced in Universal and Heavenly laws.
This school of experience and thought practice, is quite interesting when you look at the 9 levels of incarnation lives to graduate and that time is now.

Wow, Oh Wow!
Be joyful of the coming of peace and the return of Christ Conscious of loving thy neighbor, family, all living beings and creatures created through GOD.

[Kristin]

I agree with the self forgiveness or even the ability to feel sorry for the person who is the psychopath. But it is important not to think that your forgiveness will change that person. You can only change yourself. Also remember, as a definition, a person with more experience then you in "Universal and Heavenly Laws" would not blink an eye at forgiving you. But remember, the psychopath will continue and will not stop or care about you or your own feelings. They will continue without shame regardless of who forgives them. Forgiveness will do nothing to help that person, but if it helps you... go for it.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

[Billy]

When there is no judgement there is never a need to forgive.

Peace

[jorr lundstrom]

Do we need forgive everyone, even really bad people like killers, psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles etc. to stop the circle of karma?


We dont have to forgive anyone, maybe with the exeption of ourself, if needed.

Who are we to forgive another human being for wot he or she has done?

Karma is only an idea, though many have bought into it. Its just a tool for

control. And even if it doesnt exist, it still functions. :ranger:

[Rollo]

Yeah, I agree that if psychopath will be forgiven for what he did then it will not change his behavior or there is very little chance that it will change him. But what if we look at the people close to our hearts like family members who can hurt us. Without forgiving is very hard to live in peace. Hurt children are not talking to their parents for years in many cases. But a lot is changing if they forgive their parents(and vice versa).

[Chester]

after yourself first, yes... then if you have the experience I had... you realize there was nothing to judge and then if you realize the gift you have then.. that you are still alive in a physical body, you can live the atonement for the rest of your lives....what greater gift could be given - the opportunity to be the living apology every single moment.

Sam

[DevilPigeon]

-----

I forgive Jorr for having a picture of a deceased pigeon in his signature... Wasn't easy though (sob, sob :cry:)

[Ina]

Do we need forgive everyone, even really bad people like killers, psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles etc. to stop the circle of karma?
Forgive the person, the soul, don't forgive his wrongful action(s). Distinguishing the person from his deeds helps in forgiveness. Forgiving wrongdoers doesn't mean we forgive/accept/forget what they did. It means we accept them as whole beings, capable of mistakes as much as being capable of doing good.

[Valley]

Yes I would say that forgiving everyone is essential to your own advancement because then you will not have that nagging energy of conflict which just takes your energy into an unhealthy place. Then there would not be that emotional "charge" and roller coaster ride in your energy whenever you see somebody do something you don't agree with. What I have found is that it is a gradual process where you slowly begin to release that urge that wants to "do battle" with everyone you don't feel is doing things "properly". A good exercise to help with this is to realize that everyone is on their own paths to ultimate self discovery and there are many reasons why people do what they do... mostly because of past conditioning and "bad" examples they are following. Some folks require more time to get things figured out within themselves... perhaps hundreds or thousands of lifetimes.

Another way to look at things is to stay focused on our own energy, because we can't force someone to make the "right" choices, so struggling with them, even in our own minds just creates more internal conflicts within ourselves. If we don't "struggle" with them in our minds there is never a reason to forgive because it is then a non-issue... and forgiveness doesn't really have to be addressed then because we will be working within our own energies and keeping them clear.
:hippie:

[truthseekerdan]

Do we need forgive everyone, even really bad people like killers, psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles etc. to stop the circle of karma?

In this video one can get some tips...

f9lkgE5fJtI

[BlueGem]

Valley, you read my mind! You made some excellent points about getting tangled up in other people's energy. I have made the same mistakes over and over. I used to get so frustrated when I saw people going through hardships - a lot of them needless. But then, that created friction for me, so I had to learn how to let things go and focus on myself. Forgiveness is something people like to pretend they can do, but in my experience it's very hard for most people to let go and move on.

[Rollo]

Yes I would say that forgiving everyone is essential to your own advancement because then you will not have that nagging energy of conflict which just takes your energy into an unhealthy place. Then there would not be that emotional "charge" and roller coaster ride in your energy whenever you see somebody do something you don't agree with. What I have found is that it is a gradual process where you slowly begin to release that urge that wants to "do battle" with everyone you don't feel is doing things "properly". A good exercise to help with this is to realize that everyone is on their own paths to ultimate self discovery and there are many reasons why people do what they do... mostly because of past conditioning and "bad" examples they are following. Some folks require more time to get things figured out within themselves... perhaps hundreds or thousands of lifetimes.

Another way to look at things is to stay focused on our own energy, because we can't force someone to make the "right" choices, so struggling with them, even in our own minds just creates more internal conflicts within ourselves. If we don't "struggle" with them in our minds there is never a reason to forgive because it is then a non-issue... and forgiveness doesn't really have to be addressed then because we will be working within our own energies and keeping them clear.
:hippie:


"mostly because of past conditioning and "bad" examples they are following"

This is what I was thinking. The past is playing very imortant role.

[ROMANWKT]

forgiveness comes from within, it has to be them, you are in a forgiving mode always, but it has to be them that seek forgiveness. you cannot absolve them, it has to be them, themselves.

regards
roman

[jorr lundstrom]

-----

I forgive Jorr for having a picture of a deceased pigeon in his signature... Wasn't easy though (sob, sob :cry:)


Nothing personal, just food. :hug:

[nomadguy]

Sure why not?
And when you find you cannot forgive someone, you then forgive yourself for not being able to?

[DeDukshyn]

Do we need forgive everyone, even really bad people like killers, psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles etc. to stop the circle of karma?

Depends on how fast you want learn and rid yourself of the human condition. The human condition stems from lack of forgiveness, not lack of forgiveness "under X circumstances" -- THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE. ;-)

[Ammit]

Simply, forgive yourself and realise your true you, forgiving others will be easy after.

[Semnyi]

Hi Rollo,
To forgive is to heal. Neither forgiveness nor the conditions that lead to it should be coerced.
It is resolve, to be forgiven should not be like a free ride.
To forgive, even for a small pain, can be very difficult.
Letting go of the things we attach ourselves to,
such as blaming people in our life,
is basic meditation practice.
Hindsight is 20/20 right? Well insight is 40/40

good luck

[another bob]

Do we need forgive everyone...

Yes, just do it, because you already know in your heart it's the right thing to do.

Don't waste a moment getting trapped in pros and cons -- it will go better for you that way.

:yo:

[Anchor]

Do we need forgive everyone, even really bad people like killers, psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles etc. to stop the circle of karma?

Yes.

Next question?

:)

[Ammit]

Rollo, if you can not forgive these people then you can not forgive anyone.

Dont forget, forgiveness begins at home.

[another bob]

When there is no judgement there is never a need to forgive.

Peace

Well said, and yet, the mind is always making judgments, because we need to discriminate in the objective world. So, how do we avoid "likes and dislikes", -- preferences -- as advised by the sages? Well, one good way is to stop attaching a "me" or "mine" to any of it. When we take the person out of it, then there is just the natural function of phenomenal spontaneity, which arises and dissolves without leaving traces. No sweat!

:yo:

[RMorgan]

Hi my friend,

Well, if you work yourself not to be rancorous and resentful, you will not ever need to forgive anyone! ;)

Cheers,

Raf.

[Anchor]

This is a repost (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19680-Forgiveness&p=209884&viewfull=1#post209884) but what the hell eh?


---

First try to answer the question about why you want to forgive in the first place.

Life is about experience, some of that ongoing cause and effect has consequences that linger in many formats for too long!

At some point recognition of the futility of allowing the remnants of artifacts from situations long past are worth cleaning up as they serve no further useful purpose and therefore act as a blockage - a kind of useless detritus that impedes further progress.

One cannot turn back the clock and simply undo what one subsequently appreciates should not have been done.

Recognition of that, in the moment of the recognition - creates the necessity for forgiveness.

Forgiveness stops the wheel of Karma - but there is a catch - mutual forgiveness of the self and the otherselves involved is a primary importance.

Forgiveness is hard to start with, but it gets easier, because as we move though these cycles of experience, we begin to master what it within us that resists the process.

I hope that is helpful.

Forgiveness is essential.

For some other perspectives I refer you to an archived thread from the predecessor of this forum that was started by illuminate, a shining star among us - who has not posted here for some time, but nevertheless, one from whom every post counted.

http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19500

---

[DeDukshyn]

Yeah, I agree that if psychopath will be forgiven for what he did then it will not change his behavior or there is very little chance that it will change him. But what if we look at the people close to our hearts like family members who can hurt us. Without forgiving is very hard to live in peace. Hurt children are not talking to their parents for years in many cases. But a lot is changing if they forgive their parents(and vice versa).

While you are correct ...
It has absolutely nothing to do with them .. NOTHING! It has to do with people who observe them as such and apply the labels. It's not about "changing them" it is about changing US! Without forgiveness every soul is perpetually commiting a "SIN" and applying energy to the human condition (The Fall), whereas practicing instant forgiveness always, in every circumstance, alleviates that condition and elevates our vibrational frequency. When Jesus said "Forgive All" in contradiction to the old testament -- HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS SAYING. The issue is that we just don't "get it" but twist that philosophy into some sort "well, I'll forgive this, but NOT that! Hmmmphh!! <in Snobbish egoic tone>. So we can keep on "not helping". Its ridiculous! My 2 cents .. no offense .. a touchy subject for me because I have been there, done that, and I have the first hand experience of both worlds. Conditional forgiveness paves the road to Hell.

Again My two cents. But I am not wrong (maybe a tad dramatic ...).... trust me ;-)

[Kristin]

Yeah, I agree that if psychopath will be forgiven for what he did then it will not change his behavior or there is very little chance that it will change him. But what if we look at the people close to our hearts like family members who can hurt us. Without forgiving is very hard to live in peace. Hurt children are not talking to their parents for years in many cases. But a lot is changing if they forgive their parents(and vice versa).

Yes, it is. Good clarification. I know from personal experience that there is a need to have that forgiveness listened to. On the personal level of that, I would suggest to have your forgiveness in your heart at all times and if that person is able to hear it; extend that branch. Sometimes people will not act well to an offer of forgiveness, they take offence to it so be prepared for that. They may not be ready or still in denial. That can be very painful for the forgiver. But at least it is there and you can always wait until the time is right. Just realizing that you can forgive or even consider it when painful events occur in a family means that you are healing on a personal level. That is huge. If the family member never reaches that point, at least you will never have the regret and will not carry it with you in the end.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

I wanted to add this great video from "Ted Talks" to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvmsMzlF7o

[ghostrider]

forgiveness, it is what makes us human and seperates us from the cabal that manipulates the earth.

[Camilo]

Yes, we do need to forgive everyone!

[1inMany]

If every human being is connected through Source, and each of us an equal spark, if we trace that backwards we are all Source. Sort of. So, thinking out loud here, it is first difficult to understand a person that is different than me to the extent that I would never intentionally cause someone pain and there are those who cause pain as a rule. There are positive energies & negative energies. But, still, tracing everyone backwards, that means I am also those who cause pain as a rule. So, does this not get complicated for anyone else? On the one hand, I say I am non-judgmental, and for the most part I am. But to be honest I very harshly judge some people, even though I don't know them, because they cause so much pain...rape or beatings to children, etc. Even if I put those people into a compartment for the sake of my sanity, temporarily, it does not detach them from Source. I think I must be slow in developing or something, because I cannot imagine looking at some people I have met personally who have committed atrocities against others, mainly children, and in my heart feeling forgiveness for them. If I could imagine wanting to forgive them, which I cannot, I must have missed the "how-to" segment in class.

I am a compassionate soul, and I feel empathy for many who have committed crimes actually. I feel for them that they were abused as children and know no other way, for example. But, if one believes in pure light...doesn't one necessarily believe in dark as well? Understanding why someone commits a heinous act, whether against me or any other human being, is so vastly different from forgiving them.

Maybe what I am missing is in the word forgiveness. What is forgiveness? Certainly not using the standard "Oh, it's okay." How do those of you who forgive all beings of all things do it? What does it mean to you?

Much Love.

[Anchor]

1inMany,

That is a cracking good post, and sums a lot up.

I don't believe in good or evil, positive energy or negative energy.

Like you I believe we are ultimately part of one.

What I think we do, is we create actions. We are creators, so that is how that happens.

Every thought, action, word or deed is an action and an action with consequences that further complicate and distort the web we weave - and in our incarnated lives often has lasting effects rippling onwards in the illusion of time.

In doing this we experience and learn and if it all goes how it should, ultimately we harvest wisdom - and it may be that in the chain of events we realise the reality of it, and now the inertia/catalyst is no longer required and it may also be affecting other people in ways that were not originally intended - what we sometimes categorize as mistakes or errors are like that (even though there is no such thing in the final view - it is all grist to the mill).

This point of realization is when we can act to stop this and stop this unwanted aspect to our reality.

The stopping of that karma is forgiveness, and in that forgiveness it is possible to heal and amend those things acting out on the tapestry of life that we weave such that a new state of beingness is achieved by all. For all involved have to forgive.

So if any holds back, the entire process is impeded, and the wheels of karma remain turning for each of these situations.

That is why I think we have to forgive everyone.

[markpierre]

But true forgiveness isn't a benevolent gesture made outward, to something that you think isn't or may not be worthy of it. If someone elses innocence depends on you, then there's a real problem. Thankfully it doesn't.
Forgiveness is the admission (discovery) that the cause of a grievance lies in misunderstanding the whole.

There's no one outside of you that can do things to you that you haven't agreed that they should occur. Lets stay up in the big picture occasionally just for practice, and for the sake of a true answer.
If we can't do that all the time, it's a good discipline to exercise it when we're able to recognize that we really-really don't want to. .

It's not possible that anything can come to you unbidden. So your Whole Self (the instigator) can agree that 'yes, that was a powerful lesson', while the illusory self licks it's wounds and demands vindication,
or plots revenge.
There's no more justifiable way to exact revenge than to pardon someone who you believe is guilty. That's not forgiveness. That's taking an awful lot of authority that isn't yours to take. It's your belief that's in error, and that's where forgiveness occurs.
In the correction of that error.

When you really forgive something, it's gone from your awareness. You won't be able to remember what the grievance was about. I'm serious! You'll be different. The mind you use will be different from the one that held the grievance.
And that's the criteria if you want to know if you've truly forgiven something. The blame you once cultured won't make any sense to you.
It's an extraordinary and fundamental change in you, that you discover. Usually in retrospect.

There may be things that you just can't imagine forgiving, and that's not a failure. The truth and purpose of any situation will eventually be revealed. Forgiveness is incidental, it's just a term.
'Oh, I was simply wrong in my judgement'. 'I was the cause of that grievance.'
That's not so horrible to accept. And that's where freedom is.

And if you just can't locate the real truth of the situation, it doesn't matter. That doesn't change the truth and the perfection in it. And it's only you that suffers for as long as you want to. You must want to, or you wouldn't.
It's hard to realize how much gratification a separate mind gets from being 'right' about being 'wronged'. We nurture our hurts and resentments, because that's how we know and identify ourselves in the world. There's a weird sort of safety in the familiarity of injustice.
It's something human consciousness is very very familiar with.

You can't do that forever, because you can't remain in illusions forever. You can however, consider how little it's possible for you to be aware of in any situation, compared to the nearly infinite factors involved.

But if you really knew how devastating it is for your own quest for peace, in fact it holds it static, I wouldn't be making someone else guilty for what you think is unforgivable. It's you that believes that, not the rest of reality.
Aren't we all effects of the same causation?

And yes, I've been through it and through it and through it and through it, and eventually my mind learned to seek the solution where it is. Trust me, I'm a very slow learner. Anyone can learn this. It may involve an element of trust, but you can never find it out without at least a gesture.

That all seems a bit blunt and uncompromising, but half measures are nothing more than that. You don't want to be stuck halfway. Not really.

[music]

Forgiveness is an ego based concept, and when we operate from that perspective, we are elevating ourselves above the subject of our forgiveness. Pity is the same kind of animal. Instead of pity, we have compassion, instead of forgiveness, we have the understanding of the higher consciousness perspective. Evil (for want of a better word) people are devoid of Love - they are cut off from the purpose of 3D existence, and from source. So firstly, these people deserve our compassion, and then, when we realise that actions that are devoid of Love are most usually re-actions to other Loveless actions, then we can see by the light of understanding. Forgiveness has nothing to do with Karma - Karma is a demonstration of the 3D physical laws of energetic attraction that we have given a spiritual connotation. That doesn't mean it isn't real, it just means that from a higher dimensional viewpoint it is of no consequence. All those who have lost Love (our natural state) should be shown Love so they can follow the path back home. We don't need to do this to the physical person if this is too hard - it is enough to Love from a distance. We can still retain a dislike or distate for the actions of the individual, but through understanding and Love, we can change the world for the better. One heart at a time.

[Anchor]

Forgiveness is an ego based concept

It is when you are doing it from an ego perspective - and arguably, if so then you are doing it wrong.

For example, is this rather famous instance of forgiveness from the ego?

Luke 23:34 - Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

[music]

Forgiveness is an ego based concept

It is when you are doing it from an ego perspective - and arguably, if so then you are doing it wrong.

For example, is this rather famous instance of forgiveness from the ego?

Luke 23:34 - Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Perhaps, perhaps not, but considering that Christ Consciousness is a feminine energy that we historically have been taught to treat as male, I could perhaps argue that the true intent of Jesus in this instance has likewise been mis-rendered or twisted in the translation through several languages before arriving to us to debate in English.

I could also say that Jesus operates from the higher consciousness, but his teachings must be accessible to those who don't, so the ego-based idiom is a neccessity for disemination of the idea.

[Dawn]

I don't think you need to do anything, but I like this story, and have direct experience that what it describes is real.


There were 2 men who worked in New York City, and since it was Monday morning both were going to work. One lived outside of the city, and he drove to the train station to board the train that would take him into the city to work. The other man lived in a high rise, and took a taxi to work that day. The first man walked out of the subway tunnel to the news stand on the corner, intending to buy the morning paper. The 2nd man also arrived at the news stand, nearly in the same moment. When he saw the 1st man, the 2nd man slugged him in the jaw, and then turned to go into the building where he worked. Neither man had ever seen the other one, they were total strangers. What happened?

.... this story was told by Lester Levenson to his students (the Sedona Method founder). And here was his answer, after his students spent some time trying to answer the riddle


The 1st man wanted to be a victim at an unconscious level, and the second man wanted to focus his anger and punch someone. When they came in the vicinity of each other their desires were able to both be met

My personal experience with this particular way that the universe works is this: I was on a weekend retreat which was being held at my home. The retreat included about 20 people and a traveling teacher. The purpose of the retreat was to become free and clear of energetic and emotional patterns. Part of the way we did this was to create little plays and focus on being a certain emotion (kept secret from the other students) for that particular play. We were filmed, and everyone tried to guess what emotion we had been instructed to play. We had done many of these classes, however my husband was stuck on anger. He just couldn't hold that emotion, and no one ever could guess if he had been assigned the task of being angry. On that particular weekend he finally made it! He played anger very well, and everyone cheered for his success. (This class was based on the idea that if you did not judge an emotion, you could be it with ease, and also not ever get stuck in it- a very useful talent)

On the second day, my husband and I decided to escape our house, which was full of class members, and go out to dinner.... we were instructed by the teacher to remain silent until class the next day.

As I sat in the passenger seat next to my husband, who was driving, I could see that a man about 3 miles away was in agreement to help my husband practice being angry without judging himself. Obviously I was in something of an altered state, however seeing something miles away seemed perfectly natural to me in that moment.

When we arrived beside the man I'd seen, he made a rude traffic maneuver and my husband became very angry. At the very next stoplight, my husband pulled up beside the offending driver, rolled down his window and verbally accosted the man. The man shouted back, and lots of four letters flew around. Then the red light turned green, and both cars drove on. In my silent state I was very proud that my husband had been able to be really open about expressing anger, instead of repressing it. Well, to make this story short, this scenario repeated 2 more times, when my husband turned to me and said, "The energy is really weird tonight, I think we'd better go home"

The next day in class, he expressed concern about the road situations from the day before, and judged himself for not being able to control his anger. He was not aware, as I had been, that all these situations were an agreement of love from the other men who were willing to allow him to express anger, rather than repress it.

This understanding has profound implications. If this is really how things are, (and I certainly was shown that this is so) then what is there to forgive? How do you judge a murderer who is likely in agreement with his victim? How do I judge the men who raped and molested me as a girl? Well... for me the answer is, I don't.

I did a lot of internal work to release all the emotions and programs that caused me to believe that I was unforgiving and angry. And... as a result... I am really and truly free of these traumas. When ever I find myself in judgement about anything I stop, do some soul searching (and maybe a little ho'opono'opono) and release all of it. I feel better immediately.

[music]

Thank you for sharing that Dawn. Like you, I was sexually abused as a child. True freedom came for me, as it did for you, by overcoming the ego's temptation to continually engage in the "bad cop/good cop" game of judgement/forgiveness.

[Kimberley]

When there is no judgement there is never a need to forgive.

Peace

I am in full agreement with this!

I will also add one of my favorite quotes in case you have not seen it before... Much love!


Forgiveness from Annalee Skarin

And now my beloved I will give again the sacred keys on which the forgiveness of your sin is based. Forgive and you shall be forgiven. Those who can not forgive can not be forgiven. The very core of being forgiven is contained in the ability to forgive. Those who carry their grudges and hates and spirit of retaliation with them are carrying a burden of such deep darkness. They become acutely clothed in the darkness of their own dislikes. And so I speak gently these words for all have sinned. Your own great release will come when you can forgive. If you can not forgive you are carrying upon your shoulders your neighbors, your brothers failures and transgressions and you are also carrying the burden of your own sins, weaknesses, innumerable errors, and mistakes . When I commanded you to judge not lest you be judged, I was revealing the great eternal law by which you would escape the great judgment

[conk]

Yes, forgive everything and everyone. You created them. Forgive yourself for doing so. Forgiveness rids the body of negative energies.

[777]

The answer lies in the suffix. Gifts are given.

[taizen]

This thread has interested me due to a burning question I've been wrestling with for the past few days. I was molested when I was 5, my mother didn't do anything to the person, just told him to never return. I was then molested when I was a teenager by my brother, I forgave him, he died 1 year later. Several years after that, my daughter told me her babysitter, a grandfather/grandmother due, was making her feel uncomfortable. She never went back. I know about energies and I know about forgiveness. I too have a very difficult time expressing anger. Is it wrong not to want to beat the living crap out of someone for doing that very thing that happened to yourself? I guess what I'm asking is, if we are supposed to be in a state of forgiveness all the time, do we just take the rape or molestation because we asked for it? can we defend ourselves? defend our children? I want to lash out sometimes, but I never know what would be 'right' or 'wrong'. Some people say let the authorities handle it, well in my case(s) authorities were never involved. Does anyone have any insight for this?

[Kristin]

We can be loving instead by shinning light and exposing the truth. I try not to confuse forgiveness with love in that forgiveness isn't something that should let you or another off the hook. Love is much better because it is based in reality. The reality is that sh*t happens, now what are you going to DO about it? I think it's an act of love to shed light into the situation and be honest, get the authorities involved or put yourself out there and YOU get involved!!! That does not mean that you are not being loving or that you can not forgive. But doing nothing is just that, doing NOTHING and change can not happen if you're inactive, can it?
From the Heart,
Wormhole

ps. I would lovingly punch the M'F*cker. Snap out of it!!!

[amym]

Do we need forgive everyone, even really bad people like killers, psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles etc. to stop the circle of karma?

I try to think of forgiveness as "no longer be attached to" or "no longer judging." Forgiveness to me is to give a memory of an action freedom and not holding on to the resistance.

You can feel compassion and love for the victims while letting go of the need to judge.

[Anchor]

Is it wrong not to want to beat the living crap out of someone for doing that very thing that happened to yourself?

Neither right nor wrong. Maybe, to avoid actually doing it in real life, run the scenario in your head instead.

In the end, you know that violence begets violence, and here it is right in front of your own eyes. You get a choice what to do.


I guess what I'm asking is, if we are supposed to be in a state of forgiveness all the time

I'm not sure that is exactly right. Forgiveness is not a state, it is the conclusion of a process.

It may very well be a great and nice sounding recommendation to be a goal for all situations, but I'd say there are reasons for everything - including the worst that life has to throw at us.

If someone hits me, I may well turn the other cheek, or I may defend myself (with varying measures of success). I don't know till it happens. I have done both in the past :)

I consider there are no rules beyond what I feel is right at the time.


do we just take the rape or molestation because we asked for it?

I don't think its valid to say you asked for it. Unless you are talking about some metaphysical concepts of pre-incarnational programming wherein you arranged the catalyst in your life. And if you do understand this, then you are a lot closer to the resolution of the situation than you may first have thought.


can we defend ourselves? defend our children? I want to lash out sometimes
Yes you can defend yourselves.

Yes you must defend your children.

That can involved the authorities or it can involve you doing whatever your heart tells you is necessary at the time.

If you can avoid violence, its probably best.

Most legal systems allow for reasonable force. (Even though I probably would not care about that in the heat of the moment).


but I never know what would be 'right' or 'wrong'

Then you need to listen to your heart. It knows what is right or wrong and it is never wrong.


Some people say let the authorities handle it, well in my case(s) authorities were never involved.

Who cares what other people say? Your life, your children.

At the end of the day - you are responsible for everything you do.

[greybeard]

"A Course in Miracles" is based on forgiveness.
Its very powerful and the workbook part of it ( a lesson a day) is well worth undertaking.
There are many study groups through out the World--- I went to one at "The Findhorn Foundation" for several years.
If one is serious about spiritual progress learning to forgive is an essential--- it is the corner stone of Christ message.
Chris

[Belle]

Thanks, Chris. As I was reading through this thread, something from ACIM kept rising to mind:

Nothing real can be threatened
Nothing unreal exists
Therein lies the peace of God.

I think forgiveness lies in our ability to let go of the hurt we perceive within ourselves. Holding on to hurts is toxic, yet some hold on tight unwilling to let go for whatever reason.

When something happens to me that begs forgiveness, I simply let go of my feelings about the situation and move on. The moment of 'pain' is in the past and only continues to exist if I allow it. I can't control the past, but I have choice in the now.

Of course, at my age I've had years of practice...letting go (forgiving) is the easiest path to inner peace, and I like easy.

[Arrowwind]

Forgiveness is not redemption for the person being forgiven. Redemption can only come from inside an individual...one must redeem themselves.

If you do not forgive you spend your days eveloped in negative emotions that damage no one other than you.
anger, hate, resentment, pettiness, distrust. YOur own redemption comes to you through your forgiveness to others.

If you forgive then you let go of will ill you perceive done to you or others. It is cleansed off of you and you become free again.


If you forgive it does not mean that you forget. Forgetting could put you in a position to be damaged again if you are not spiritually strong. Using common sense with your forgiveness will keep you out of situations that you are not prepared for. In order to have common sense you must retain memory. Memory helps you to learn the power of negativity and how to circumvent it. Memory helps you to self empower.

You would not put your hand back into a roaring fire after being burned would you? Yet we forgive the fire and learn respect for its force, both good and serving as well as bad or dangerous. This is how one develops wisdom.

[Rollo]

Do we need forgive everyone, even really bad people like killers, psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles etc. to stop the circle of karma?

I try to think of forgiveness as "no longer be attached to" or "no longer judging." Forgiveness to me is to give a memory of an action freedom and not holding on to the resistance.

You can feel compassion and love for the victims while letting go of the need to judge.

One day I was on the terrace, just looking at the blue sky and I felt like I want forgive these people who do all this evil. It was something coming from my heart, very spontaneous. I was having almost tears in my eyes when I was thinking about it. Even now when I'm writing it.

I know I will not change the world much but I will "let go of the need to judge".

[Rollo]

Thank you all for very rich and comprehensive response. This post will help all of us:).

[taizen]

@Anchor
Thank you for your incite. I've struggled with this issue for a long time and was afraid to open up about it. I was speaking of the metaphysical attraction, BTW.
For many years I would not speak with my father for certain issues. But right before he died, I told him that I was past it all (he really wouldn't have understood forgiveness being that he was a 'man's man' so to speak.

I will continually seek yet humbly bow. My sister told me one time that it was easy for others to 'dominate' me because of my lack of 'dominance'. I had always felt sorry for her for not realizing that people make their choices and it was their choice to make, not me to force a choice. Forgiveness is a choice, a choice of the heart. But the body as a whole must be aligned with this. Total forgiveness will not be accomplished and moving on to the next level will not occur. But, alas, I'm repeating with others have already stated much more eloquently than I have. Peace and harmony-within and out.

Thank you Avalonians-you are all wonderful loving people. (including L.S.)

[Dawn]

Taizen: This thread has interested me due to a burning question I've been wrestling with for the past few days. I was molested when I was 5, my mother didn't do anything to the person, just told him to never return. I was then molested when I was a teenager by my brother, I forgave him, he died 1 year later. Several years after that, my daughter told me her babysitter, a grandfather/grandmother due, was making her feel uncomfortable. She never went back. I know about energies and I know about forgiveness. I too have a very difficult time expressing anger. Is it wrong not to want to beat the living crap out of someone for doing that very thing that happened to yourself? I guess what I'm asking is, if we are supposed to be in a state of forgiveness all the time, do we just take the rape or molestation because we asked for it? can we defend ourselves? defend our children? I want to lash out sometimes, but I never know what would be 'right' or 'wrong'. Some people say let the authorities handle it, well in my case(s) authorities were never involved. Does anyone have any insight for this?

Taizen, my heart goes out to you. Thank you for being so vulnerable here. I am choosing to answer you because I've been there. And it took me a long time to find my way out of the trap of trauma victim to sovereign being. It was not easy, but I did make it... so I can tell you my path. My path might not work for you, however it might hold a few of your keys.

* One of the most important things I learned was that I needed help to let this go. I needed a neutral witness to help me balance all the repressed emotional trauma, and to help me gently work with myself. You will likely need this type of help too. Talk therapy is useless in leading you to a total cure here, because the trauma energies are locked in the cells and nervous system of your body. There are a number of modalities that have been created to specifically work with trauma energy. I don't know them all, but I know a few. Somatic Experiencing was my main resource here, but you must search for a local practitioner. Rolfing, Heller Method, TAT, EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique), and Watsu are a few others (and there are many more). As you begin the heroine's journey of healing this, be sure you do not work with anyone who is not compassionate!!! And, I'd recommend you work with women, at least in the beginning. Later on, when you have become good at releasing your layers of fear, you might wish to work with a man.. but not in the beginning.

**Believe it or not, you will find, as you work through the layers of energy, that much of what you are holding is NOT yours! Strange as it may seem, victims of sexual abuse and rape usually end up with the energy and thought forms of the predator in their system. For example: One of the main reasons sexual victims often experience self loathing, is that their energy got mixed with that of the sexual predator during the act... and the predators often loath themselves on a deep level.

***The reaction of people who hear your story can also become lodged in your energy field. This is especially true if you told your mom, and she had a reaction. Even if that reaction was non-verbal, you would have received it on an energetic and emotional level. Yet by now, it has become unconscious, and you do not realize that this reaction is not, and never was, yours.

****If you tell your story, and find yourself numbing out, or re-traumatizing yourself, there is something else you need to know. Trauma energy behaves like a whirling vortex of energy that has become separate from you, yet is still in your field. When this vortex (well actually a toroid) is stimulated, it will suck more energy into itself and grow stronger. Therefore, in order to release this, and heal it permanently, you will need to go to an expert who is aware how to help you with this delicate job, at least as you begin. Too much of an energetic release will make this knot of whirling energy stronger (NOT a good thing for you)

The thing about trauma that is really sad, and a bit scary - is that it will repeat, over and over, and over, until this energy is dissipated and balanced. For example I was molested by 2 different men, and raped on 2 separate occasions. Another example is a trauma client who came to me when I was a healer with 13 (!) whiplash accidents in her recent past (OMG!) Therefore, until you take the time and courage to disentangle this energy, it will continue to show up in your life in various forms.. over and over.... and over.

What about taking courageous action and refusing to be a victim? ABSOLUTELY!!! Get angry, tell the perp off, report him to the police, defend yourself and your daughter in every way that is not dangerous to you. (don't, for example, shoot him because you would end up in jail). Part of what is happening in your life, your daughters life, and other women's lives, is that we are playing victim. If you stand up for yourself, look men right in the eye, take a self defense course and so on... you change your energy from that of a victim, to that of a powerful sovereign being who refuses to take anything from anyone that isn't supportive.

If you truly change your energy you will no longer be victimized... ever again.... because you do not broadcast an energetic signature that invites perpetrators into your life. In other words you will not need to actually use the self defense techniques you learned, your will have the energy of 'don't mess with me' and you will not be messed with.

So, in summary...
You need to dismantle the trauma energy in your body, and this takes courage and delicate planning
You should defend yourself and speak up
When you are done no one will ever mess with you again and there will be nothing to forgive

One more thing that is important to understand here, and very few people are aware of is this: Trauma energy locked into the body is the sole cause of almost every auto-immune disease known to man. I have seen people heal themselves of fatal illnesses of all kinds when they release trauma pattens. Examples of these diseases would be: MS, arthritis, allergies, fibroid-myalgia, and even deafness and sometimes blindness.

It is a wonderous and wonderfilled journey, I highly recommend it... Have fun.

[Billy]

One day I was on the terrace, just looking at the blue sky and I felt like I want forgive these people who do all this evil. It was something coming from my heart, very spontaneous. I was having almost tears in my eyes when I was thinking about it. Even now when I'm writing it.

I know I will not change the world much but I will "let go of the need to judge".

Rollo kindred soul. When you change the perspective of how you look upon others you change your world from within,

Emotional non attatchment is a great gift to learn on the journey of the soul.

Being emotionally non attached does not mean you stop loving other souls who may try to control others because of their baggage or issues or insecurity

It just means you are not allowing yourself to be attached to their issues. It brings freedom to self allowing you to express the truth like you are expressing here.

When you change your world from within you then change the world around you.

Be sure you are making a difference.

Peace.

[Limor Wolf]

I found the lesson of forgivness very constructive,usefull and a blissful form of HEALING. having an emotionally traumatic childhood,I had a lot to cover for,and it was done by some of the method Dawn has mentioned as unvictimizing myself and an awful lot of inner work. also reattching to my own empowerment,as well as from having a real understanding of the tendencies of our human nature.not surprsingly that happend together with my wake up call and coincident with the first insights to how our world and our human nature are being manipulated (without disregarding our self-responsibility and our own participation in it).

I applaud Dawn's words:


"If you truly change your energy you will no longer be victimized... ever again.... because you do not broadcast an energetic signature that invites perpetrators into your life. In other words you will not need to actually use the self defense techniques you learned, your will have the energy of 'don't mess with me' and you will not be messed with."

I think it summarisez it very well.

Dearest Taizen,Forgivness does not contradict taking action.I have nothing else to add to whats been wisely suggested here,and I hope you will not react but simply act,from a pure sense of 'knowing',that you know that you or your daughter or any other human being (can be extended to 'any breathing creature') deserve to remain secure,safe and confident. don't be afraid to reclaim it for yourself and for your daughter,as been said above - adopt this 'energy signature'. my love and respect to you.

I have found a good article that touch the main points of why we 'need' (or better say -why it will be to our best interest) to apply self- forgivness to ourselves and forgivness to others in our various life situations,a worthwhile reading and implementing.


I especially liked:

1. Hurting Ourselves:
("One of my favorite sayings is “Holding a grudge against someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.” The only person we hurt is ourselves.")

2. It’s Not About You, It’s About Them

3. Battle of the Ego

4. Anger Feeds Anger. Negativity Feeds Negativity.

5. Waste of Energy
("Where attention goes, energy flows. What we focus on tends to expand itself.")

6. Negativity Spreads

7. Freedom of Speech

~ Be In Their Shoes ~

~ forgive ~

~ Look for the Lessons ~

~ Choose to Eliminate Negative People In Your Life ~

~ Become the Observer ~

~ Worst Case Scenario ~

~ Express It ~

~ Pour Honey ~ (not always working)


http://thinksimplenow.com/happiness/dealing-with-difficult-people/


With Love

~*&^~*&

Limor

[DeDukshyn]

How do you fix all the wrongdoings of the past?
There is only one way, and it is a definitive way ... Forgiveness.

When you go through all your past experiences and forgive all those you perceived as having done you wrong, and you forgive yourself for having perceived them that way, you change everything - you heal everything. It is extremely powerful to do this, and I believe it was Carlos Casteneda who said this task is actually a requirement for reaching enlightenment.

How do you know if you have forgiven something? Think about it. Does it still hurt? Then you have not forgiven -- sometimes this takes work. It is more than words - you have to "feel" it.

As someone else mentioned, the highest step is to not have the judgement in the first place. When you can face a terrible wrong done to you and feel no pain/anger/sadness/frustration/fear in your heart, you are above the need for forgiveness. Very few have achieved this state consistently. We all like to think that God forgives ... he does not, because "His" purity is incapable of any Judgement, therefore "He" is incapable of forgiving - which requires initial judgment.

The power of the wisdom in this thread is just incredible :)

Blessings ;)

[ulli]

When you get a vision of what you want to do and become really busy...
and go into creativity mode...then even forgiveness is no longer an issue.

Too busy to worry about past imperfect.
Too busy to worry about who did what to you.

[DeDukshyn]

When you get a vision of what you want to do and become really busy...
and go into creativity mode...then even forgiveness is no longer an issue.

Too busy to worry about past imperfect.
Too busy to worry about who did what to you.

But the actual step down key is .. "too busy to think"
If we all stopped "thinking" we'd be a huge step ahead. in 99% of humans "thinking" is the most destructive thing they can do. My 2 cents ;)

[ulli]

When you get a vision of what you want to do and become really busy...
and go into creativity mode...then even forgiveness is no longer an issue.

Too busy to worry about past imperfect.
Too busy to worry about who did what to you.

But the actual step down key is .. "too busy to think"
If we all stopped "thinking" we'd be a huge step ahead. in 99% of humans "thinking" is the most destructive thing they can do. My 2 cents ;)

The mind is a tool which can be directed constructively.
It depends on training.
If thinking is destructuve it is usually ego driven, coming from instinctive survival mode.
Neither explorer mode nor creator mode.
These are options which are rarely even considered.
Not thinking at all would mean throwing away a great gift- the human mind.

[DeDukshyn]

When you get a vision of what you want to do and become really busy...
and go into creativity mode...then even forgiveness is no longer an issue.

Too busy to worry about past imperfect.
Too busy to worry about who did what to you.

But the actual step down key is .. "too busy to think"
If we all stopped "thinking" we'd be a huge step ahead. in 99% of humans "thinking" is the most destructive thing they can do. My 2 cents ;)

The mind is a tool which can be directed constructively.
It depends on training.
If thinking is destructuve it is usually ego driven, coming from instinctive survival mode.
Neither explorer mode nor creator mode.
These are options which are rarely even considered.
Not thinking at all would mean throwing away a great gift- the human mind.

For me, not thinking allows Source to flow through. But you are correct - it is a tool and should only be used as such. The mind and the brain are not the same. The brain thinks, the mind creates. My 2 cents ;)

[markpierre]

It's been said here a dozen times, but here's how I see it. Forgiveness is freedom. Nothing outside of me can dictate any terms to me. I'm the boss of whether I want to be angry or not. Well I was the boss before anyway, but now I have to actually decide what it is I want.
If I realize I have a choice, then occasionally I might pick the right one. Why not?

Anchor referred to it as "the conclusion of a process", but it can also considered an 'action of mind'. A way of thinking. It's not hard to exercise enough discipline to develop that way of thinking, because the rewards are instantaneous. In the old way of thinking, the reward never shows up. You might get a few people to agree with you, but that sort of multiplies the problem rather than dilutes it doesn't it?. You just want to feel okay again, right? And you want to find the fastest most effective way to do it.

Wrong. That's the opposite of everything the ego wants.

So it requires a choice, knowing that it might not seem like the normal thing to do. You might hate it and resist it with all your might, but it will become automatic as you practice it. You won't need a new 'process' for every grievance because your mind goes directly to the solution. That's when you stumble into the realm of 'miraculous' thinking. All kinds of incredible things happen, but that's another topic.
But really, its a trick. You've heard the idea that we project our unconscious minds out and and our issues are then called in or manifest in our world. It's unconscious because you don't want to look at it, and so it can't be drawn into the conscious mind. It's unacceptable.

Well ya, basically. So everything outside of you that you address and accept is another knot untied in the unconscious. That's a higher process yet! There is a really grand purpose for it all.

[BestLion]

Do we need forgive everyone, even really bad people like killers, psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles etc. to stop the circle of karma?
We are and always will be human., We have emotions , and conscience. Forgiveness is part of being human, we can forgive some things and yet other things are non forgivable. Forgiving can also lead to being naive.
For example Billy Meier case.. already exposed as a hoax. Lets say i forgive his human 'error' on the ray gun photo, or the Dean Martin girls photo.I forgive him ..and say he wasnt outright being deceptive but made a error..this will lead me to further deception then.
I will admit when I was 19-22 I went to church and bought into the Jesus bulls*t. This required me to forgive people. One man in the church was a former drug dealer con man who got 'born again'. I had to forgive him ect..Well by doing thus i ended up loaning him 50 bucks which i never seen again. forgiveness must also be used with wisdom, and trust. i thought it was divine love to forgive, but I was the one who got played.
Forgiveness is one thing, redemption is another. I can forgive, but that dont mean I will redeem.

[Anchor]

Well by doing thus i ended up loaning him 50 bucks which i never seen again.

LOL - dude, let it go! that was like 14 years ago :)

Its a great example. Did you forgive him yet? Of is the universe playing out another lesson?

[BestLion]

Well by doing thus i ended up loaning him 50 bucks which i never seen again.

LOL - dude, let it go! that was like 14 years ago :)

Its a great example. Did you forgive him yet? Of is the universe playing out another lesson?

I dont care about it..My philosophy is now..never give-loan money on how much your willing to loose.
No I have not forgiven the guy and why should i? He's a con artist. Same as i dont forgive other people who have wrong intentions. i also dont buy into much of the new age stuff on love, age of Aquarius. I find it to be an impossible human endeavor.

[DeDukshyn]

Well by doing thus i ended up loaning him 50 bucks which i never seen again.

LOL - dude, let it go! that was like 14 years ago :)

Its a great example. Did you forgive him yet? Of is the universe playing out another lesson?

I dont care about it..My philosophy is now..never give-loan money on how much your willing to loose.
No I have not forgiven the guy and why should i? He's a con artist. Same as i dont forgive other people who have wrong intentions. i also dont buy into much of the new age stuff on love, age of Aquarius. I find it to be an impossible human endeavor.

I solved this problem by never loaning money. I just make the decision or not to give the money freely without any expectations. That way no on can wrong me and I have no need to forgive ;)

[kcbc2010]

I think that we do need to forgive, but we don't have to forget either. A lot of the time forgiveness is a multiple-step process, not a one-time "I forgive you"(like most of us wish it would be).