Destroy your Higher Self or Source!

[Tony]

Because your Higher Self and Source is still your ego!

It is a cover story.

“I don't need a guide, I will go on my own sweet way...I'll go happily round in circles....and I'm going to take as many others as I can with me...let's go!...follow meeeee!”

That is precisely why you are here: you are lost!

Oh I forgot, you chose to come here .... to do what?

An idea has infiltrated this and other forums, to trust YOUR inner instincts, YOUR intuition, because that is YOUR higher self...rubbish!
How sure are you that YOUR intuitions and instincts originated from “you”?

This higher self is merely your ego, clinging to its self-identity still.
It is still all about ME!!!
Ideas are put out there, to make you feel it's going to be alright - you have arrived, so no more searching! You do not have to be aware of anything...just be ...just snooze ..zz...zzz....zzzz...zzzzzzzzz!

Do you honestly think it is that simple?
So you can hold your breath, stick your toe in your left ear and a chakra turns blue....so what?!
Did it free you from your clinging?...NO!

When learning anything, we follow the same process of going step by step.

Through a method, we start at the beginning and work through the stages.
Once we understand, we find confidence and real freedom,
so that when something is not working, we know how to put it right.

The method of meditation is the same.
To say one does not have to learn anything is a misdirection.
Yes, you are “that which you seek” - but there is a lot more to it than just those words.
You wouldn't say that to an enlightened being...unless you wanted to make them laugh!

We have to learn to unlearn.
To uncover the layers of self deception.
It is not that difficult, but our habitual patterning keeps getting in the way.
That is why it is wise to follow a system to undo the knots, and so find freedom.

Of course, the ego wants to do its own thing, and say, “I am already free!”
This is merely a conceptual freedom. We are still clinging to the concept of “I” am “something”.
It is the same old habit that keeps the noose around our necks.

Once you have a sound method, you will find total confidence.
Finding total confidence means there is nothing to ever be defended.
No one can ever pull the wool over your eyes again...or the noose around your neck!

If you react to this, ask - who is it that is reacting?

To uncover the truth you really do have to take yourself apart.
When you have realised Emptiness, then there is nothing more:


My dream-like form
Appeared to dream-like beings
To show them the dream-like path
Which leads to dream-like enlightenment.

Best wishes for the new year!!
Tony

[aranuk]

I reached emptiness years ago. Only my mind isn't happy about it.

Stan

[greybeard]

Very tongue in cheek Tony and true.
The word "resonate" springs to mind.
It terrifies me.
The number of people who regret saying x y and z resonated with me---- is infinite.
I dont trust "me" one little bit.
I am instantly wary if I feel good about something (resonates)
In simplicity--- I pray and whatever is needed (not necessarily what I want) comes through sycronicity.
Not directly through my actions.
No voices in the head, no feel good factor.
An example---
I was due to be made homeless--- a person I had not seen in many a year kept on bumping into me on a daily basis.
Different places different times.
He persuaded me to go back to AA --- I had been sober for over thirty years, most of it after AA attendance for five years.
I gave in and indirectly through that I moved from being 6035 on the housing list to getting one two days before the homeless date.

Im sure something brought that about--- but not "me"--- possibly SELF.

Regards to you Tony.

Chris

[greybeard]

Yes the enlightened laugh at our concepts.
An exert from a question and answer session.
Chris

From a question and answer session with Dr David Hawkins
Page 347 “I” Reality and Subjectivity.

“Q:One hears the statement that everyone is already enlightened : How is that to be understood?

A: It mean the Self is present and potentially discoverable as the basis of one's existence.
The statement is actually an impossibility because it incorrectly defines the understanding of enlightenment, and it also presents the fallacy of the hypothetical.
To be enlightened is to know the Truth, consequently, the statement that there is a knowingness of Truth in that which does not know the Truth is an incorrect statement
What could be said to be realistic about the statement is that ultimate Truth awaits within to be discovered.
If seen If seen for what it is , all languaging is a paradox because nothing can actually be said to be.

Revelation is revealed knowingness. It is understood without without words or concepts, such as meaning or significance which are merely abstractions.
Neither the Universe or anything in the Universe means anything
The mind is accustomed to obtaining getting deriving or discovering meaning or information
In the state of enlightenment all is self revealing of its essence as its existence.
Everything is already what it means.”

Chris thinks!!!!
the following.
There are many authors who talk about enlightenment but are not in that state.
Talking about is not it.

If one is serious about the path of enlightenment, the the teaching flowing through such a one is essential as the words carry the energy of enlightenment.

The obstacles are removed and the state naturally shines forth.

Namaste

[TraineeHuman]

In this Forum we pretty much only have words. Words are always shadows. Like in Plato’s story of The Cave.

Unfortunately, what this means is that one person may understand or play with a concept just as a concept, a word. A second person may realise the concept. That is much harder to do, and takes substantial work on oneself. It takes much overcoming of your self-deception. It takes watching yourself all the time like a hawk. It means writing the words with the very fabric of your life experience – with your sweat, your joy, and ultimately with your detachment, your inner feeling, your understanding. And even, ultimately, with your true happiness (by which I don’t mean any excitement, or any good mood or stimulation, and I do mean something which is its own opposite).

So, yes. Just the concept or the words that a person needs “to thine own self be true” and to deeply, truly “know thyself”, and so on, will lead a person astray, as you say, Tony. As will any other words. That’s providing the person doesn’t fully realise the meaning of such words.

But realisation is what spirituality is all about.

And it certainly is true that the lowest level of spiritual enlightenment occurs with the realisation that at your deepest and truest level you are the same as Source. I know, because I realised it in my adolescence, along with some of the higher levels of enlightenment. But I know from my experience of these that they all involve even deeper understanding of who you really are in your true nature, and direct seeing of what that really implies.

I don’t agree that everyone needs a method, Tony. If the reason for needing a method is to use something that’s “objective”, all I can say is that the “inter-subjective” is the source of all certainty and truth, and is in every way preferable to that which is objective.

Tony, you say that a method is necessary because it will give you “sound confidence”. I say it will only give you a crutch. Any such crutch will just be extra baggage, I’m afraid.

[Little Ishta]

Well you are entitled to your opinion Tony. You do raise some valid points in regard to Higher Self being your ego. But Higher Self could be your True Self with out Ego being involved. The path of enlightenment is different for everyone as everyone needs to follow their own path and find their True Self. The Truth is within each and every one of us. It is up to us to find it. That is the Waking process. The ascension is merely us trying to rise above our lower self. It is about caring, loving and wanting to be free of the greed and the selfishness.

[greybeard]

All belief systems identification must go.
I am a spiritual seeker--- I am a Christian--- I am a Buddhist.
Anything that has "I am" in front of it is miss-identification.

There isn't even a path because that gives the impression that I am the doer.

However the paradox is that, it seems that first you must seek enlightenment as a Divine inspired obsession then to learn that giving up the search may be the answer.
Wishing every-One the best of luck with their own way of finding the "One Truth."
(as I wish my very own self)
Ramesh said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"
That "resonates" with me ----laughing hysterically,

Chris

[Sebastion]

My reply to your post is to simply say that the Lamp of Love can only be received by those who have fulfilled all the requirements of its reception.

[ViralSpiral]

Oh I forgot, you chose to come here .... to do what?




Haven't a bloody clue Pie. Been deceiving myself for 50 years!
God can have my ego if he wants. ;)




p.s. wave @ FredS :)

[Jenci]

So who is going to destroy this ego?

Jeanette

[Sebastion]

Tony, I was just wondering if you think that your initial incarnation on this planet was due to Buddhist teachings you received before you arrived or do you think that somewhere deep inside, you knew how to incarnate here that had nothing to do with that? If the latter is true, would it not mean that you already know within and you would never have to rely on what somebody outside of you has to say?

Have you ever considered that this "emptiness" you speak about is just the realm of the impersonal masculine/feminine mind of the One? Could there be more? Could it be that "emptiness" is a limitation in itself? At any rate, that is for you to decide. Have a good one!

[greybeard]

So who is going to destroy this ego?

Jeanette

Truth is that ego is a figment of the imagination.
A belief that, "I am my story"
Thought is extremely powerful.
Only the ever present eternal moment exists.
The ego needs past and future to survive.
Living in the NOW reduces the hold the illusory ego has over one greatly but only a very high spiritual energy can burn it off.
So some humility is required to ask for help.
The traditional way was to have an enlightened teacher of a proven linage.
I suspect the process has sped up greatly with new energy coming into the world.
Baically that is because the Totality wants that.
There are no accidents.

Chris.

[Little Ishta]

If one is serious about the path of enlightenment, the the teaching flowing through such a one is essential as the words carry the energy of enlightenment.

The obstacles are removed and the state naturally shines forth.

Namaste

Like the Light that is within All of Us?

[truthseekerdan]

Ramesh said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"
That "resonates" with me ----laughing hysterically,

Chris

And who is Him? YOU, when one realizes that...
Laughing.., but "not hysterically". :love:

Namaste ~ Dan

[Eagle]

To me ego is what blinds us with self presurvation from the mind and justifies everything, feeling from the heart(not mind emotion) frees us from the chains we have bound ourselves in and allows us to fly with the "Eagles"

[Jenci]

Very tongue in cheek Tony and true.
The word "resonate" springs to mind.
It terrifies me.
The number of people who regret saying x y and z resonated with me---- is infinite.
I dont trust "me" one little bit.
I am instantly wary if I feel good about something (resonates)
In simplicity--- I pray and whatever is needed (not necessarily what I want) comes through sycronicity.
Not directly through my actions.
No voices in the head, no feel good factor.
An example---
I was due to be made homeless--- a person I had not seen in many a year kept on bumping into me on a daily basis.
Different places different times.
He persuaded me to go back to AA --- I had been sober for over thirty years, most of it after AA attendance for five years.
I gave in and indirectly through that I moved from being 6035 on the housing list to getting one two days before the homeless date.

Im sure something brought that about--- but not "me"--- possibly SELF.

Regards to you Tony.

Chris

Oh dear, Chris, I use resonate a lot, lol.
I used to use "identify", a common word in AA. Actually when I am in AA, I still use it a lot for the purpose of unity although it makes me laugh to say it ;)

I went through a stage of picking and choosing my words. Can't use this now, can't use that now and it was very restrictive.......until I saw only my ego had a problem with the words.

I use any words now. They just happen spontaneously and there is no more choosing of them.

All the words we use are inadequate to talk about this as they can only point to it. . Awareness, consciousness, God, source, absolute, Self, Life, etc.
I heard Adyashanti talk the other day and he said call it "Coca-cola" if you want, it doesn't matter.
I like that.

Eventually the words are no longer relevant and when they are no longer relevant, we realise all language is here for us to express ourselves in infinite ways.

Thanks for sharing about being made homeless and that man being put in your path every day.

It reminds me of what Mother Teresa said when asked what she thought of seeing the homeless, disabled and shunned on the streets every day and she said that she all she saw was "Jesus Christ in all of his distressing disguises".

Life gives us all the gifts we need right now.
It just may not have the wrapping paper on it that we want.

Jeanette

[Kristin]

LOL, oh man... P... you are something else. Throwing out the mind with the bathwater is a waste. I try to balance my heart with my mind. I used to end my posts with "Peace of Mind" now I end with "From the Heart". I've been considering, "From the Heart of the Mind". I can't just be all love and light, no action. I can't just be all mind, no heart. Balance balance balance. Truth is I'm here on this planet NOW. That's the fact, so I need to live in reality as ugly as it is. I can't effect change without truth as my guide or my effects are just statements and have no basis in reality. Ego... well what is ego... is the ego you speak of the thing that makes a person "full of themselves and better then another"? Then yes, later Ego. No one is more important than another. We are all special and all relevant. But ego (and I use the small "e") is also the thing that doesn't put up with BS, asks questions when something isn't right. Will stand up for one's self if there is danger, will help to preserve the body by saying, "I matter, I'm not going to take this, I need to survive." So again, balance. Depends on your definition of "Ego,ego" and it's function. Two sides of the same coin? Maybe. If so, important to control but needed to survive.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

[greybeard]

Ramesh said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"
That "resonates" with me ----laughing hysterically,

Chris

And who is Him? YOU, when one realizes that...
Laughing.., but "not hysterically". :love:

Namaste ~ Dan

Its all levels Dan so of course you are right.
Ultimately there is only God.
All prayers are therefore to Self.

Good to see your mother board up and running once again Dan--- you were greatly missed.
Best wishes
Chris

[greybeard]

If one is serious about the path of enlightenment, the the teaching flowing through such a one is essential as the words carry the energy of enlightenment.

The obstacles are removed and the state naturally shines forth.

Namaste

Like the Light that is within All of Us?

Im afraid the light does not shine within all but the potential is there,
When enlightened state occurs and sometimes before, then the light has been ignited.
Traditional teaching says it is by the grace of God that the soul is illumined.---- God realization, Self Realization, call it what you will.
Quite literalily in meditation the light can shine within.
Yogananda said it was brighter than a million suns.

I feel it is an error to dismiss the traditional path out of hand.
Eckhart Tolle said "I dont want to give the impression that you can sit watching TV with a can of beer and the state will occur."
If that was the case a large percentage of the population would be enlightened--- it is still a relativly rare occurence but as said it sems to be speeing up and happening to greater numbers.
There are also various levels of enlightenment --- they are all complete though.
Enlightenment could be seen as kindergarten from a higher perspective.
There are many paradoxes

In my language and understanding---- on enlightenment its true to say that you are the totality all of it but!!!!! you are not at the same energy level (voltage) as the ONE.
Not saying im right but that is my unenlightened understanding of the moment.

Chris

[truthseekerdan]

Its all levels Dan so of course you are right.
Ultimately there is only God.
All prayers are therefore to Self.

Good to see your mother board up and running once again Dan--- you were greatly missed.
Best wishes
Chris

Namaste Chris,

This is not about being 'right or wrong', only the ego sees that. However, we need to understand that the level of human consciousness is not the same as it was even a few years ago. Teachers like Ramesh and others, were more relevant back then due to the level of awareness (consciousness evolution) of that time's period. In the current times however, one will have to find the inner (true) direct teacher within its heart. No more proxies...

Everything is actually only one thing at the most basic level. We become aware of this when the illusion of separation disappears. The deeper our understanding of this, the better we are at alleviating our suffering. All suffering ends when we find truth at its source. To find truth at its source, we must first find out who we are at the deepest level. To find out who we are at the deepest level, we must have balance.

To have balance, we must let go of all unwanted feelings or attachments, even if we do not see them as being connected to us. If we are able to do this, even for only a few moments each day, we will begin to understand that any unwanted feelings or attachments that arise can be disarmed and removed from our daily lives. The relief from this basic routine alone is proof that a great inner power and energy is within each one of us, waiting to be discovered.

Much Love ~ Dan

[Jeffrey]

Once again, great thread. This is my idea of a great discussion! ;)


Because your Higher Self and Source is still your ego!

It is a cover story.

“I don't need a guide, I will go on my own sweet way...I'll go happily round in circles....and I'm going to take as many others as I can with me...let's go!...follow meeeee!”

That is precisely why you are here: you are lost!

Oh I forgot, you chose to come here .... to do what?

An idea has infiltrated this and other forums, to trust YOUR inner instincts, YOUR intuition, because that is YOUR higher self...rubbish!
How sure are you that YOUR intuitions and instincts originated from “you”?

This higher self is merely your ego, clinging to its self-identity still.
It is still all about ME!!!
Ideas are put out there, to make you feel it's going to be alright - you have arrived, so no more searching! You do not have to be aware of anything...just be ...just snooze ..zz...zzz....zzzz...zzzzzzzzz!

...

When learning anything, we follow the same process of going step by step.

Through a method, we start at the beginning and work through the stages.
Once we understand, we find confidence and real freedom,
so that when something is not working, we know how to put it right.

The method of meditation is the same.
To say one does not have to learn anything is a misdirection.
Yes, you are “that which you seek” - but there is a lot more to it than just those words.
You wouldn't say that to an enlightened being...unless you wanted to make them laugh!



Agreed, we transition to this frame of thought but it changes nothing. We arrive at the bottom of the staircase and say, "Ah ha! I've found the answer!", and we stay at the bottom (maybe taking a few steps here and there). I believe complacency is the word I'd use to describe it.

I'd like to share a story.



Sri Ramakrishna taught, "always go forward." The world of religion is infinite. Sri Ramakrishna used to tell the story of the woodcutter and the holy man.
A woodcutter had long been working in a particular area of the forest. One day a holy man came that way and told him "Go forward." So he decided to go further into the forest. As a result, he discovered a sandalwood forest. He was very happy, as the sandalwood fetched him a lot more money than the other wood. He worked for a while in that area, but one day he remembered the holy man's words, "Go forward." He again went deeper into the forest and found a silver-mine He make a huge amount of money from it, but he did not stop there. After some time, he went further on and found a gold-mine. Again he went forward and discovered a mine of diamonds. He thus became richer and richer.

What Sri Ramakrishna meant was that we should keep going on and on in our spiritual pursuit. It is as if we are climbing the Himalayas.
We keep climbing higher and higher till we have reached the highest peak. We shouldn't be content with anything less than the highest and the best - this was his advice. How disappointed he would be if he found someone mistaking one of the lower peaks for the highest. He wanted us to keep pressing forward all the time. Let's suppose we've discovered a silver mine. But why should we stop there? Why not find a gold-mine, and even a diamond-mine? Let us go on and on, never thinking we've reached the goal. Going forward will be our goal.

(Source) (http://www.templeuniversal.org/ramakrishna.htm)


We have to learn to unlearn.
To uncover the layers of self deception.
It is not that difficult, but our habitual patterning keeps getting in the way.
That is why it is wise to follow a system to undo the knots, and so find freedom.

I would say we have to unlearn to learn. (EDIT: I re-read this part, and I see now that's what you were saying—ah wordplay)

Ideas and thoughts bind us to our relative perspectives. They keep us grounded in our ego-mind. I think that it is a tool though; not to be destroyed, but transformed in order to undergo transmutation from little self to Self.

To quote Annie Besant:


It is this wondrous nature of the Self, who is evolving in us through knowledge at the present time, that we have to study, in order to understand the nature of thought, and it is necessary to see clearly the illusory side in order that we may utilize the illusion to transcend it. So let us now study how Knowing - the relation between the Knower and the Known - is established, and this will lead us to see more clearly into the nature of thought.

Again, I know this, but I don't truly understand it until I experience it fully. It remains an idea and I fall prey to the complacency that I (and yourself) previously described.



Of course, the ego wants to do its own thing, and say, “I am already free!”
This is merely a conceptual freedom. We are still clinging to the concept of “I” am “something”.
It is the same old habit that keeps the noose around our necks.

Once you have a sound method, you will find total confidence.
Finding total confidence means there is nothing to ever be defended.
No one can ever pull the wool over your eyes again...or the noose around your neck!


I completely agree. The ego is very clever.


To uncover the truth you really do have to take yourself apart. When you have realised Emptiness, then there is nothing more.

Very Zen of you, I like it.



All belief systems identification must go.
I am a spiritual seeker--- I am a Christian--- I am a Buddhist.
Anything that has "I am" in front of it is miss-identification.

There isn't even a path because that gives the impression that I am the doer.

However the paradox is that, it seems that first you must seek enlightenment as a Divine inspired obsession then to learn that giving up the search may be the answer.
Wishing every-One the best of luck with their own way of finding the "One Truth."
(as I wish my very own self)
Ramesh said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"
That "resonates" with me ----laughing hysterically,

Chris

You know what, I love you guys. :biggrin1:

Again, I would like to quote Annie Besant:


The Thinker, having learned clearly to discriminate between objects by dwelling upon their unlikenesses, now begins to group them together by some attribute which appears in a number of objects otherwise dissimilar and makes a link between them. He draws out, abstracts, his common attribute, and sets all objects that possess it apart from the rest which are without it; and in this way he evolves the power of recognizing identity amid diversity, a step toward the much later recognition of the One underlying the many.

I agree Chris, they must go. They are merely a stepping stone to be used in order to progress, but they often become fly paper for most (myself included).

[Jeffrey]

So who is going to destroy this ego?

Jeanette

I think (there's that damn word again) it more about transmogrification at this point in the process. The ego is ultimately destined for dissolution. Therefore at this point, "destroy" carries a connotation that leaves you struggling/fighting with yourself (it's counterproductive). It is easy to fall into complacency too with this mindset though. It's a slippery slope—damn slippery. That's why it's best to adhere to a method (mystical/religious or what have you), like Tony said. Many have achieved this before...

Here's a quote from Joseph Campbell (if you haven't noticed yet, I love quotes :)) that has some bearing here about the process of methodology and apotheosis:


Furthermore, we have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us. The labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path, and where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god. And where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves. Where we had thought to travel outward, we will come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we will be with all the world.


He says slay, similar to destroy. You say potato, I say tomato... :crazy:

[Tarka the Duck]

Transmogrification?? Is that really a word???!!
Does it have something to do with stray cats??!;)

[Jenci]

The traditional way was to have an enlightened teacher of a proven linage.
I suspect the process has sped up greatly with new energy coming into the world.
Baically that is because the Totality wants that.
There are no accidents.

Chris.

I believe so, too. No accidents.
Jeanette

[Tony]

Ode to the Crutch.

If I am not too strong, my crutch helps me.
It is something to lean on when I am tired.
When I was young, I did not think I needed the help of a crutch,
But now I am older, it aids me when I wobble.

How to view the crutch, or backup system.

As a Vajrayana student, one uses the aid of deities such as Avalokteshvara (the lord of Compassion)
and Vajrakiliya (Protector) to enhance one's practice. It is an aid during the death process,
to view all appearances as a projection of one's mind.
They are also a source of inspiration to recognise one's true nature and essence.

But it is a backup system, to be used when the nature of mind gets cloudy due to lazy practice.
At death, one maybe grateful of a belt and braces approach!

It could be a little embarrassing meeting Yamataka (the lord of Death), with one's trousers around one's ankles...due to being stubborn in one's attitude.

Ego is consciousness clinging to an idea. It stubbornly grasps at anything that comes to pass.
When this very same consciousness looks in at its own nature, in an unmodified way,
it find that it is pure empty essence, unfabricated. All you have to do is look...for your-self....and nothing is found...then you have arrived!

Ego does not need to be destroyed, just tamed. We however can destroy the illusions.

(Goodness! I love this forum when its firing on all cylinders!!!)

[Jeffrey]

Transmogrification?? Is that really a word???!!
Does it have something to do with stray cats??!;)

Yes (not to do with stray cats though)! :p I found it in the "Acknowledgments" section in Radix (by A.A. Atttanasio). I had to look it up at the time and it just stuck with me. It's a quaint little word, fun to say.

P.S. I was digging for the book where I found that word just now and I noticed something. The book is dedicated to "Lightworkers, across time and space". Very cool.

:cool:

[Tony]

Dear Sebastion,

I have been on spiritual paths for over forty years and have been grateful for every nuance of teaching. One can spend much time, studying, reflecting and meditating on a simple sentence.

My journey started with much anger and frustration at the world, thinking, “There has to be more to life than this?”

If one is practising for ones own enlightenment, life is quite simple, the practice is quite simple.
But if one wishes to benefit others, much study, reflection and meditation is needed.


I always have a feeling of unfinished business, and feel totally at home with the Buddha's teachings. It is for the individual to decide, here we are just sharing thoughts and feelings ...and a little experience.

Maybe all we have to do to get an inkling of past lives, is to look at our intentions and inclinations now.

A student called Marpa was rowing across a river, after a journey from India to Tibet. A jealous friend threw all his notes that he had collected from teachers, over board. He of course was very upset. His teacher said, “What remains in your heart, you understood, the notes on paper were things you didn't understand anyway.”

Emptiness merely means nothing beyond...if a thing is empty, then it is totally clear, no obstructions, purity itself!

[Mark]

I read an explanation of that Higher Self idea in a pendulum scrying book before that made a lot of sense to me. It kind of reiterated what you are saying here. This guy explained it quite simply, actually. He said that the Higher Self is that which is the totality of its collective spiritual experience. It is every incarnation, every soul or spirit that had an individual experience, every person, every ego, every "I" and "Me" that it, the Higher Self, has ever been. The Higher Self is kind of way up there. It does not concern itself with us generally at an individual "I" and "Me" level, as it has a multitude of soul/spirit shards, if you will, that are constantly being formed and dissolved, emanating from it down into material experience and returning to it in order to add its individual experiences to that of the Higher Self.

He explained that what people generally mistake as the Higher Self is really the Lower Self, which he also called the Inner Child. He explained that the Inner Child is responsible for what we might call achievement of the Siddhis, or magic, precognition, seeing auras, such things, while the Higher Self is charged with our greater Destiny, making sure we experience the lessons it requires for its own growth, the synchronicities we experience and the completion of our life plans.

The Lower Self/Inner Child is playful and will take credit for being the Higher Self if we allow it to. The Lower Self is that which our Ego/Mind can interact with, not the Higher Self, at least, not directly. But we can access the Higher Self through the Lower Self/Inner Child. The Lower Self can be a messenger of sorts.

Perhaps this is not the exact point of your original post, but I thought of it as I read what you wrote. If this is in any way an accurate depiction of our relationship to those parts of our Self that our normal waking mind does not have access to, then we are indeed being tricked by ourselves. Not necessarily our Ego/Mind complex, but by that part of ourselves that we call our Subconscious, or Lower Self, or Inner Child. Or, perhaps for some folks, it is indeed just the Ego, the Intellect, pretending. Considering the work that most of us still have yet to do with our Inner Child to heal her or him, the amount of self-deception that must be going on in this area has got to be much greater than is generally admitted or realized.

Thanks once more and always for the space to explore these ideas. Bless, my friend.

[Tarka the Duck]

In this Forum we pretty much only have words. Words are always shadows. Like in Plato’s story of The Cave.

Unfortunately, what this means is that one person may understand or play with a concept just as a concept, a word. A second person may realise the concept. That is much harder to do, and takes substantial work on oneself. It takes much overcoming of your self-deception. It takes watching yourself all the time like a hawk. It means writing the words with the very fabric of your life experience – with your sweat, your joy, and ultimately with your detachment, your inner feeling, your understanding. And even, ultimately, with your true happiness (by which I don’t mean any excitement, or any good mood or stimulation, and I do mean something which is its own opposite).

So, yes. Just the concept or the words that a person needs “to thine own self be true” and to deeply, truly “know thyself”, and so on, will lead a person astray, as you say, Tony. As will any other words. That’s providing the person doesn’t fully realise the meaning of such words.

But realisation is what spirituality is all about.

And it certainly is true that the lowest level of spiritual enlightenment occurs with the realisation that at your deepest and truest level you are the same as Source. I know, because I realised it in my adolescence, along with some of the higher levels of enlightenment. But I know from my experience of these that they all involve even deeper understanding of who you really are in your true nature, and direct seeing of what that really implies.

I don’t agree that everyone needs a method, Tony. If the reason for needing a method is to use something that’s “objective”, all I can say is that the “inter-subjective” is the source of all certainty and truth, and is in every way preferable to that which is objective.

Tony, you say that a method is necessary because it will give you “sound confidence”. I say it will only give you a crutch. Any such crutch will just be extra baggage, I’m afraid.

Hello TH!

Could explain what "inter-subjective" means? Sounds good, but I don't have a clue!

Regarding the "crutch" idea...you seem to be implying that that is a negative.
As I know I currently have a limp, I am delighted and proud to accept the help and support of a crutch that is the right size and shape for me. I don't see any shame in that at all: and I know that, one day, I will be happy to throw that crutch away.

I suppose if one doesn't feel one is limping, then a crutch would be excess baggage, as you say.

In every other aspect of life, I am extremely grateful for all the teachers who have ever helped me: they have passed on their experience, and through my understanding and practice, I have been able to experience things for myself.
The spiritual journey, for me, is no different. Finding a teacher who does it for you isn't necessarily easy - I have been let down quite badly by a couple of "gurus", but that has in no way diminished my search, or my utter respect for those who offer wisdom arising from practice.

I don't feel that "my path" is much different from anyone else's path.
Therefore, I am happy to listen to, reflect and hopefully learn from those who have trodden the path before me.

Perhaps it comes down to the strength of one's inner questions.
If the questions are so overwhelmingly strong and all-encompassing, it feels as if there is no time to waste wandering around, limping...pass that crutch, will you?!!

[Tony]

I read an explanation of that Higher Self idea in a pendulum scrying book before that made a lot of sense to me. It kind of reiterated what you are saying here. This guy explained it quite simply, actually. He said that the Higher Self is that which is the totality of its collective spiritual experience. It is every incarnation, every soul or spirit that had an individual experience, every person, every ego, every "I" and "Me" that it, the Higher Self, has ever been. The Higher Self is kind of way up there. It does not concern itself with us generally at an individual "I" and "Me" level, as it has a multitude of soul/spirit shards, if you will, that are constantly being formed and dissolved, emanating from it down into material experience and returning to it in order to add its individual experiences to that of the Higher Self.

He explained that what people generally mistake as the Higher Self is really the Lower Self, which he also called the Inner Child. He explained that the Inner Child is responsible for what we might call achievement of the Siddhis, or magic, precognition, seeing auras, such things, while the Higher Self is charged with our greater Destiny, making sure we experience the lessons it requires for its own growth, the synchronicities we experience and the completion of our life plans.

The Lower Self/Inner Child is playful and will take credit for being the Higher Self if we allow it to. The Lower Self is that which our Ego/Mind can interact with, not the Higher Self, at least, not directly. But we can access the Higher Self through the Lower Self/Inner Child. The Lower Self can be a messenger of sorts.

Perhaps this is not the exact point of your original post, but I thought of it as I read what you wrote. If this is in any way an accurate depiction of our relationship to those parts of our Self that our normal waking mind does not have access to, then we are indeed being tricked by ourselves. Not necessarily our Ego/Mind complex, but by that part of ourselves that we call our Subconscious, or Lower Self, or Inner Child. Or, perhaps for some folks, it is indeed just the Ego, the Intellect, pretending. Considering the work that most of us still have yet to do with our Inner Child to heal her or him, the amount of self-deception that must be going on in this area has got to be much greater than is generally admitted or realized.

Thanks once more and always for the space to explore these ideas. Bless, my friend.

Rahkyt.....wonderful!

[Lifebringer]

Like I said numerous times before, it feels right in my gut which has proven to be a great source of prevention of danger if you listen. Some don't, but I do and if you say to yourself, WWJD, i think the answer will come. But you have to listen.

[Tarka the Duck]

Like I said numerous times before, it feels right in my gut which has proven to be a great source of prevention of danger if you listen. Some don't, but I do and if you say to yourself, WWJD, i think the answer will come. But you have to listen.

WWJD??!

Thanks!
Kathie

[Jenci]

I read an explanation of that Higher Self idea in a pendulum scrying book before that made a lot of sense to me. It kind of reiterated what you are saying here. This guy explained it quite simply, actually. He said that the Higher Self is that which is the totality of its collective spiritual experience. It is every incarnation, every soul or spirit that had an individual experience, every person, every ego, every "I" and "Me" that it, the Higher Self, has ever been. The Higher Self is kind of way up there. It does not concern itself with us generally at an individual "I" and "Me" level, as it has a multitude of soul/spirit shards, if you will, that are constantly being formed and dissolved, emanating from it down into material experience and returning to it in order to add its individual experiences to that of the Higher Self.

He explained that what people generally mistake as the Higher Self is really the Lower Self, which he also called the Inner Child. He explained that the Inner Child is responsible for what we might call achievement of the Siddhis, or magic, precognition, seeing auras, such things, while the Higher Self is charged with our greater Destiny, making sure we experience the lessons it requires for its own growth, the synchronicities we experience and the completion of our life plans.

The Lower Self/Inner Child is playful and will take credit for being the Higher Self if we allow it to. The Lower Self is that which our Ego/Mind can interact with, not the Higher Self, at least, not directly. But we can access the Higher Self through the Lower Self/Inner Child. The Lower Self can be a messenger of sorts.

I really like that description, Rahkyt.





Considering the work that most of us still have yet to do with our Inner Child to heal her or him, the amount of self-deception that must be going on in this area has got to be much greater than is generally admitted or realized.



The lower self/inner child is always the last to get it. "Surely I must be fixed by now!, it cries", lol.

When we move in sync with what life is presenting to us, rather than resisting it, the movement itself dissolves the ego/inner child.

Each moment, life offers us an opportunity to coax the inner child out of the shadows where it has been hiding. Sometimes it is the most subtlest of clinging or belief never seen before, which is suddenly seen with great clarity when life is allowed to flow spontaneously, as it should.

This process takes time but with sincerity and humility, it works exactly as it should and not a moment sooner.
Jeanette

[greybeard]

Its all levels Dan so of course you are right.
Ultimately there is only God.
All prayers are therefore to Self.

Good to see your mother board up and running once again Dan--- you were greatly missed.
Best wishes
Chris

Namaste Chris,

This is not about being 'right or wrong', only the ego sees that. However, we need to understand that the level of human consciousness is not the same as it was even a few years ago. Teachers like Ramesh and others, were more relevant back then due to the level of awareness (consciousness evolution) of that time's period. In the current times however, one will have to find the inner (true) direct teacher within its heart. No more proxies...

Everything is actually only one thing at the most basic level. We become aware of this when the illusion of separation disappears. The deeper our understanding of this, the better we are at alleviating our suffering. All suffering ends when we find truth at its source. To find truth at its source, we must first find out who we are at the deepest level. To find out who we are at the deepest level, we must have balance.

To have balance, we must let go of all unwanted feelings or attachments, even if we do not see them as being connected to us. If we are able to do this, even for only a few moments each day, we will begin to understand that any unwanted feelings or attachments that arise can be disarmed and removed from our daily lives. The relief from this basic routine alone is proof that a great inner power and energy is within each one of us, waiting to be discovered.

Much Love ~ Dan

I love conversing with you Dan neither of has to be right and you make me think.
The thing is, not one of the new brigade of awakened ones say that they made it happen. (nor the traditional path ones)
The awakening happened spontaneously, after years of searching in most cases.
Some even had a Zen master to guide them.
So it would seem that in order to be nobody (everything) you have to go through years of disciplined searching.
Then after the event-- in retrospect they can say it cant be spoken of but things happen by themselves and only happening is happening.
Thats is true.
It is also implied that you have no will power, that there is no individual to have will power.
That flies in the face of the teaching of Jesus.
Granted that we are living in very different times
I have no opinion either way as frankly I dont know.

Any one who as visited here

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.

will see that my opinion has fluctuated over the course of that thread.

Im no an authority just share what I have found and my current impression.
I cant share truth because I am still in ignorance.
Some of the videos on that thread are sharing the One truth as they are in that state.
I am not and do not claim to be other than that.
The wave can say it is part of the ocean and of the same essence but it cant claim it is the Ocean.
The OCEAN can however claim it is also the wave.

Chris

[Ultima Thule]

I would like to be right, I´ve pursued it for years - unfortunately being right is not the same as knowing the truth.
I have been searching to be connected with an external source of information for years - unfortunately it is not the same source I actually am looking to be connected with.
I have been digging through the layers of information and disinformation to find ever more layers - unfortunately the one layer I am digging for is not to be found there.
It´s like reading a good book, you devour it and can´t wait for the last page - unfortunately in this book you never get there, just one or two pages more to go.

Crap, crap and crap. I totally and honestly see the point to destroy my higher self if I ever see one... and any buddhas, christs or any other buggers coming along as well, while I´m at it!
This may sound a bit humorous, in fact I am deadly serious but this is easier to handle with a bit of humor.
Very good thread Pie´n´eal, thank you very much!

UT

[eaglespirit]

Well you are entitled to your opinion Tony. You do raise some valid points in regard to Higher Self being your ego. But Higher Self could be your True Self with out Ego being involved. The path of enlightenment is different for everyone as everyone needs to follow their own path and find their True Self. The Truth is within each and every one of us. It is up to us to find it. That is the Waking process. The ascension is merely us trying to rise above our lower self. It is about caring, loving and wanting to be free of the greed and the selfishness.

I have gone through this with Others before...when You are 'intentionally' coming from an Unconditionally-Loving-Selfless-Wisdomlaced-Place...
the Higher-Self/Soul IS Egoless and Dances with Loving Oneness! You ARE the Egoless Energy in proportion to the degree of Giving! It becomes a Natural Balance while You Dance in these 3d Halls!

Too much guru talk disarms the energy, imho...just live it!

[Mark]

I really like that description, Rahkyt.

I liked it as well when I first read it, Jenci, it immediately resonated with my experience of the 'inner dialogue' as well my understanding of human psychology. I've seen the Higher Self also associated with the 72 Names of God, the theory being that there are only that many Higher Selves, each one corresponding to a Name of God, and that all of us who are incarnated are a part of what effectively are 72 Soul Groups, or 72 families of Humanity, each a part of each of these Names of God. In this view, every Higher Self is an entity, in and of itself. A conscious, living BEing, made up of us, each of us being soul-shards, or cells within its body, much like we have cells in our body that display aspects of consciousness, that live, that die, that procreate, that have experiences within the Midi-chlorian Collective that each of us represents. As Above, So Below.

The question then becomes, do we want to be subsumed back into that Higher Self upon dissolution, effectively losing our individuality (ego-self) in the process, once again becoming part of something greater? Or do we refuse the re-integration with Higher Self and seek Another Path? As Casteneda and others have posited, a way past the Eagle and utter oblivion, as a potential higher destiny where we become Names of God ourselves? And to proceed along that Path, will it then become incumbent upon us to create "lesser" soul-shards which we send down into materiality eventually in order to gain experience before returning to us as we become the greater energetic and vampiric entities that the Higher Self seems from this admittedly strange perspective to be?

Again I'm off-topic, but these are my thoughts ...




The lower self/inner child is always the last to get it. "Surely I must be fixed by now!, it cries", lol.

When we move in sync with what life is presenting to us, rather than resisting it, the movement itself dissolves the ego/inner child.

Each moment, life offers us an opportunity to coax the inner child out of the shadows where it has been hiding. Sometimes it is the most subtlest of clinging or belief never seen before, which is suddenly seen with great clarity when life is allowed to flow spontaneously, as it should.

This process takes time but with sincerity and humility, it works exactly as it should and not a moment sooner.
Jeanette

Very well said. When I learned of this potentiality there was an accompanying meditation whereby you were supposed to practice getting in contact with your Inner Child and gain permission from it to use the pendulum, since there may be times when it did not feel like it, or times when you might want to use the pendulum for the wrong reasons, like telling the future, finding out things about other people, using it for selfish reasons, things like that. The instructions were just to meditate upon the Inner Child and ask its guidance.

For me, that ended up being meditating upon a scene. A glade, in the middle of the forest where I would find my Inner Child, myself at about 5 or 6 years old, often running and playing, or just sitting silently, depending upon the moment, I guess, it was never the same. Sometimes he would just stare at me, other times he would be playful, sometimes he would even not be there. A few times I sent him with msgs to my Higher Self, he would scamper off into the forest after nodding or staring at me silently. It was amazing to me how I had very little control, imaginatively, over what he would do in any situation. It was as if he were, indeed, an entity apart from what I considered to be my-self.

[johnf]

Words, words, words! I was instantly intrigued by the title of the thread. It reminds me of the title of the book, "If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill him". Both titles tend to bring the defensive combative self to the fore, ready to defend the holy self! I think that both authors are trying to offer an opportunity to the readers to observe the battle of opposites within us and to notice there is an awareness outside that battle. As long as this idea remains an approach to awareness, and doesn't result in a new religion of destroying false gods, or adulating true ones, it will help us to keep what I call the exaggerated self in it's place, and allow it to fulfill it's limited purpose in the world of time.

In my life , I have had many different experiences of awareness, that have had value in whatever relative world they existed in. The challenge in each of them was to note the existence of that world, and to accept it as a valuable part of the whole, and to move on. Accepting that challenge is what many call gratitude. If I overdue the gratitude, i create a self that will fight to the death for whatever ideas,experiences and identities, brought me to that point.

If i under do it, I become a self destructive self ready to drop the A bomb on any who follow this self or any self that resembles it. I still struggle immensely with this one, and find coming to this forum a way of noticing, that perhaps I am not the only one.

Having released all that hot air, (perhaps too much), I can say that I have attributed the identity of higher self to some sort of energy that has helped me see that I have been fighting myself, and others needlessly, and that this battle isn't something that helps me or others. These rare moments are startling,and contain an ecstasy or something that has been really hard to let go of. Perhaps the trick here is too find the true owner of this "gold" and return it to them, and in doing so relinquish my misplaced admiration of that "self"

[greybeard]

Thinking deeper on the subject.
One has to start from where they are.
I can shout I am enlightened as much as I like but that will not achieve anything, nothing will change.
Accepting that I am in an illusory state called ignorance--- I dont know the truth.
There has to be a mechanism to at least start the process (even if that is illusory too)
Ignorance is just lack of knowledge.
I dont have subjective experience of my true identity (oneness)
Enlightenment has been spoken of as being by the Grace of God for thousands of years--- I have no reason to doubt that is true.
My understanding on Higher Self is as has been said here in this thread http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37283-Destroy-your-Higher-Self-or-Source-&p=387183&viewfull=1#post387183 -- but in my own words now.
There is only one Higher Self and it is shared by all.
It would throw you off a cliff if that brought you out of ignorance.
I think there has to be a spiritual intention to know Truth---- "What/who am I ?"
So through that commitment, made out of free will, Higher Self will bring about events situations to move the aspirant out of ignorance into the state called enlightenment.

Again not saying I am right but that is my understanding of the moment.

Chris

[Dawn]

What a fun and funny thread. For many years I was in 'spiritual seeker HELL!' and convinced I needed to do so many methods and rituals, and even to learn from 'teachers', and to sit in meditation day after day in countless silent retreats. Finally, one day, I was simply light and carefree, even if my mind did not agree.

There are 2 sides to every coin. In our case there is the side of oneness (emptiness and pure potential), and then on the other side there is the amazing display of the many creations. So, we are both one and part of the many.

There is a story of a Zen master who would give his students koans (questions) to ponder in order to help them see who they were. One of his students told him, "I finally get it. The answer to all the koans is the same! It is all emptiness and none of this (3d reality) is real!" The Zen master picked up his stick and hit the student hard across the shoulders. The student cried, "Ouch! Why did you do that?!" And the Zen master replied, "If you think that you have the answer and all is emptiness... what is that?"

On this thread it seems we are talking about the 2 sides of the coin and there is some dispute depending on which side each person is looking at. Relax, it is all good... One or Many... there is joy in all.

I think it is important to take the spiritual journey and discover the other side of the coin which is the very ground of existence and creation. Realizing that you are actually THAT, which births all, is very important- and will change you for ever. But, when you have climbed that mountain to the top, it is time to come back down 'into the marketplace' where you can be a gift to all that you come in contact with.

I'm not sure about enlightenment. I've been with many supposedly 'enlightened' teachers and they still put their pants on one leg at a time. They still have personalities, and they still refer to themselves as 'I' when they are out and about town. I also have heard about those who never come back down in their lifetime and remain in the realization of the empty oneness full time. They miss out on all the fun that can be had by enjoying the 'many' and playing there, but that is their choice.

It is possible to be to a place where you are aware of both at all times. However that does not happen until you cease seeking. The one and the many, the same and different. What a wonderful game.

Below is a depiction of the stages of enlightenment as seen by Zen Buddhism. Study them carefully, they are a sort of code for what the pathless path is. Can you see that the posts here conflict depending on which of the 10 stages someone is experiencing?

PS: I do not consider myself a Zen Buddhist, but I love some of the ways they point to the Truth!
http://www.otoons.de/mysticrose/images/10_bulls_zen.jpg

[johnf]

What a fun and funny thread. For many years I was in 'spiritual seeker HELL!' and convinced I needed to do so many methods and rituals, and even to learn from 'teachers', and to sit in meditation day after day in countless silent retreats. Finally, one day, I was simply light and carefree, even if my mind did not agree.

There are 2 sides to every coin. In our case there is the side of oneness (emptiness and pure potential), and then on the other side there is the amazing display of the many creations. So, we are both one and part of the many.

There is a story of a Zen master who would give his students koans (questions) to ponder in order to help them see who they were. One of his students told him, "I finally get it. The answer to all the koans is the same! It is all emptiness and none of this (3d reality) is real!" The Zen master picked up his stick and hit the student hard across the shoulders. The student cried, "Ouch! Why did you do that?!" And the Zen master replied, "If you think that you have the answer and all is emptiness... what is that?"

On this thread it seems we are talking about the 2 sides of the coin and there is some dispute depending on which side each person is looking at. Relax, it is all good... One or Many... there is joy in all.

I think it is important to take the spiritual journey and discover the other side of the coin which is the very ground of existence and creation. Realizing that you are actually THAT, which births all, is very important- and will change you for ever. But, when you have climbed that mountain to the top, it is time to come back down 'into the marketplace' where you can be a gift to all that you come in contact with.

I'm not sure about enlightenment. I've been with many supposedly 'enlightened' teachers and they still put their pants on one leg at a time. They still have personalities, and they still refer to themselves as 'I' when they are out and about town. I also have heard about those who never come back down in their lifetime and remain in the realization of the empty oneness full time. They miss out on all the fun that can be had by enjoying the 'many' and playing there, but that is their choice.

It is possible to be to a place where you are aware of both at all times. However that does not happen until you cease seeking. The one and the many, the same and different. What a wonderful game.

Below is a depiction of the stages of enlightenment as seen by Zen Buddhism. Study them carefully, they are a sort of code for what the pathless path is. Can you see that the posts here conflict depending on which of the 10 stages someone is experiencing?

PS: I do not consider myself a Zen Buddhist, but I love some of the ways they point to the Truth!
http://www.otoons.de/mysticrose/comic/web-orizontal/69.jpg

Awesome response Dawn! I Googled the ten bulls of zen in an atempt to find this cartoon version you posted. Both your prelude, and the version of the paintings seemed to say what I was trying to say in a much simpler way.
Then I found an Osho discourse on it:

http://www.messagefrommasters.com/oshozen/osho_on_ten_bulls_of_zen.htm

I didn't notice the presence of imbibing booze in the last painting, and it really gave me a different way of looking at my anti-self self in a new way.

[Jenci]

The question then becomes, do we want to be subsumed back into that Higher Self upon dissolution, effectively losing our individuality (ego-self) in the process, once again becoming part of something greater?

Hi Rahkyt

The ego is always grasping or resisting which stops the natural flow - (trying to maintain the big 'I am' position or fear of how it is being pereived.

When the ego dissolves, there's no grasping or resisting. There's just a flow and what emerges is a natural personality that's free to express spontaneously.


Enlightened beings can be quirky and funny. I am thinking about Tolle and Mooji for example. They both make me laugh and they are both very individual :)

Jeanette

[Bollinger]

Because your Higher Self and Source is still your ego!

It is a cover story.

“I don't need a guide, I will go on my own sweet way...I'll go happily round in circles....and I'm going to take as many others as I can with me...let's go!...follow meeeee!”

That is precisely why you are here: you are lost!

Oh I forgot, you chose to come here .... to do what?

An idea has infiltrated this and other forums, to trust YOUR inner instincts, YOUR intuition, because that is YOUR higher self...rubbish!
How sure are you that YOUR intuitions and instincts originated from “you”?

This higher self is merely your ego, clinging to its self-identity still.
It is still all about ME!!!
Ideas are put out there, to make you feel it's going to be alright - you have arrived, so no more searching! You do not have to be aware of anything...just be ...just snooze ..zz...zzz....zzzz...zzzzzzzzz!

Do you honestly think it is that simple?
So you can hold your breath, stick your toe in your left ear and a chakra turns blue....so what?!
Did it free you from your clinging?...NO!
…


I’m never comfortable entering into these particular areas where people talk about concepts such as “higher self”, “unconditional love”, “creating your own reality”, “enlightenment”, “source” and many others of the same ilk. Why is that? It is a question that is surprisingly easy to answer. There is no substance to speak of. As TraineeHuman pointed out.


In this Forum we pretty much only have words. Words are always shadows. Like in Plato’s story of The Cave.
…


However, there is philosophic mileage in having such discussions and though I would venture to suppose my views on spiritual subjects are in the minority within the population of the forum, expressing them hopefully won’t hurt.

One of the glaring shortfalls in threads having spirituality as their main theme is the use of certain terms that people rarely define. It was refreshing to see an exception to this crude generalisation a few posts back when Rahkyt gave us the benefit of his understanding of “The Higher Self”. One such definition is “totality of collective spiritual experience”. But even this leaves us with more questions than answers. The way I understood this was that the “Higher Self” is just the “Self”, since you are your experiences and memories. You can prefix it with the word “higher” if that makes it more spiritual but it doesn’t really add any more weight to its academic or etymological status.

So, what are we really talking about when we use terms like “higher self”, “unconditional love”, “creating your own reality”, “enlightenment” and “source”? One palpable observation is that every one of these concepts chimes with most people on this forum because they are considered to be the pinnacle of human spirituality and existence. This is what it’s all about. We’re not really here for mundane distractions such as having an education, finding a job, buying a house, raising a family, retiring and then dying. If only those things were removed, we could be doing what we’re really here for. This brings us back to Tony’s provocative question:

“Oh I forgot, you chose to come here .... to do what?”

For example, there are those that claim to be enlightened souls, or others telling us that they are enlightened. I would actually put it to whoever believes such a thing that we are all enlightened. There is no exception to this and there is no measurable level of enlightenment either. One person cannot be more enlightened than another simply because we can’t measure it. Does any Zen master, for example, know about my experiences and my particular bits of knowledge and understanding? In order to be truly enlightened you would have to traverse every possible life-path there is.

And then we have “meditation”. There is no shortage of advice on how to meditate and there are those who claim to be able to cause themselves to go places or experience things not open to those of us who prefer to acquire knowledge or whatever it is we are after when meditating, in a normal state.

What is really profound and inescapable is that we are here. We are conscious. We exist. From that point of view, we are no wiser than an insect crawling around looking for some morsel for it has just as much idea about why it’s here as we have about why we are here with one tiny difference. It doesn’t ask. Perhaps that is the apotheosis of all wisdom and this inquisitive nature, about which we never stop boasting, is more of a curse than a blessing.

I’ll end by saying that in all probability, the thing that we should treasure the most is our consciousness. I think there is real, tangible and scientific evidence to suggest the brain is a receiver of consciousness rather than a producer and if that is true, our higher self is simply the node above the one at which we currently operate in a tree of infinite length and breadh.

[VaughnB]

Words, words, words!

In my life , I have had many different experiences of awareness, that have had value in whatever relative world they existed in. The challenge in each of them was to note the existence of that world, and to accept it as a valuable part of the whole, and to move on. Accepting that challenge is what many call gratitude. If I overdue the gratitude, i create a self that will fight to the death for whatever ideas,experiences and identities, brought me to that point.

If i under do it, I become a self destructive self ready to drop the A bomb on any who follow this self or any self that resembles it. I still struggle immensely with this one, and find coming to this forum a way of noticing, that perhaps I am not the only one.

Having released all that hot air, (perhaps too much), I can say that I have attributed the identity of higher self to some sort of energy that has helped me see that I have been fighting myself, and others needlessly, and that this battle isn't something that helps me or others. These rare moments are startling,and contain an ecstasy or something that has been really hard to let go of. Perhaps the trick here is too find the true owner of this "gold" and return it to them, and in doing so relinquish my misplaced admiration of that "self"

Right on John...finding that middle ground is our conundrum our duality and our trial...like in my salutation of Tao of the Traveler...the path is narrow and we've only Truth as our companion.

Hey Jeanette I liked Rahkyt's 2 cents as well, there's a bit of truth in there somewhere, now I just have to figure how I can relate it to my life.

Liked Dawns appreciation for the journey as well. When John said that he enjoy this forum because he sensed some compassion for others traveling along the same road. I agree.

I've mentioned before the idea of having some kind of retreat with no agenda just fellow Avalonians getting together for some face time somewhere under the stars, around a campfire or just watching a sunset together.

I wonder if we could do a Skype conference call in sometime, then we could even have some face time. You could see my xmas tree with the bubble lights. lol

On the road, experiencing life with the rest of you.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=12150

[Jenci]

What a fun and funny thread. For many years I was in 'spiritual seeker HELL!' and convinced I needed to do so many methods and rituals, and even to learn from 'teachers', and to sit in meditation day after day in countless silent retreats. Finally, one day, I was simply light and carefree, even if my mind did not agree.



Light and carefree, Dawn.
One day, everything just relaxed. And that's it for me. Just that.
No more struggle.........even if there is a struggle ;)

Thanks for the cartoon, I had never seen that before.
Jeanette

[music]

Sorry Tony, couldn't disagree more, but it's pointless saying why, or quoting accepted past masters because we are in the realms of the experiential, and my experience here differs greatly to yours obviously.

To play Devil's advocate here - this pushing that comes from certain traditions or quarters to deny the existence of any higher self - this stating that we are merely ego, ego is flawed, so therefore we are nothing but emptiness contained within a flawed vessel? Would it not be the perfect primer for the acceptance of the "hive-mind" mentality, and the subsuming of individuality on this physical plane into a predictively reactive extension of the will of a ruling financial and intellectual elite?

For me? The self does disappear, but not in dimensional existence. Higher self, for me, is an expression of source within higher dimensional reality, but still is tied to the "physicality" of dimensional existence. The higher self resides in the heart, and the heart is the meeting place between lower and higher dimensions, but also is a reflection or refraction of the the meeting place between dimensional existence and "source". It is the seat of alchemy, where the male and female principles are combined with the magic/spirit/dragon to acheive unity, which is reunion with source, which is coming back to our true and only nature, which is Love.

[Anchor]

I like Tony - he is an all walking talking and balking (!) catalyst for thinking :)

[Arc]

[Destroy your Higher Self or Source]
Because your Higher Self and Source is still your ego!


Why?

It may even be true, but why destroy it? I think it is fine to understand it, or realize there is a larger construct.

So what if we are all just avatars in some large video game being played by the same forces, under the illusion that we are truly the characters in the game, and not the player itself? Or all actors/puppets in the same cosmic movie who all believe ourselves to be real? What if we find out we are the illusion and not the force behind it?

Well then, if we find all this to be true, it's nice to know... But, heck, why destroy it?? My feeling is that the purpose of creation by a creator source is to allow it to become self aware and then get to enjoy it's creation from infinite perspectives. Creation - not destruction. Sure it might be an illusion. And, why not enjoy it??

I appreciate this opportunity to experience that which I have, to play as an actor in this wonderful show. I like this movie. Sure, we are at the end of one of the darkest chapters or scenes - but, we are almost at the best part! ;)

I like how apples taste, and how flowers smell, and laughing together with friends, and watching cats playfully chase strings, and solving puzzles, and watching the sun rise and set, and feeling the rain, and trying to figure out how we are all going to make a better world. I like laughing - and even crying. I love to love, and hate to hate. The illusion is sometimes frightening and mysterious and scary, and at other times exhilarating, and magnificent and wonderful!!

So, back to wisdom.
Now take this movie or game and pull the plug - Bam! nothingness --
The movie is off. And now emptiness!!

... ... ... ... ... ...

[the ego manages to manifest a tiny weak whisper in the nothingness, after this annihilation]

"This wisdom and realization...it's...."

"BORING!!!!!!!!!!!"

[consciousness induces a big bang]

"BOOOOOOOOOOM!"

Energy
Light
Waves
Particles
Atoms
Molecules
Acceleration
Time
Expansion
Space
Gases
Dust
Accretion
Gravity
Galaxies
Clustering
Stars
Fission
Heat
Planets
Comets
Water
Chemicals
Bacteria
Plants
Animals
Evolution
Sentience
Culture
Science
Advancement
Experience
Spirituality
Friendship
Appreciation
Awakening
Consciousness
Enjoying Its Creation...

"Wow, now this is more like it!!!", creation said to itself, "this ego stuff is much more fun!!!"

[Belle]

I read an explanation of that Higher Self idea in a pendulum scrying book before that made a lot of sense to me. It kind of reiterated what you are saying here. This guy explained it quite simply, actually. He said that the Higher Self is that which is the totality of its collective spiritual experience. It is every incarnation, every soul or spirit that had an individual experience, every person, every ego, every "I" and "Me" that it, the Higher Self, has ever been. The Higher Self is kind of way up there. It does not concern itself with us generally at an individual "I" and "Me" level, as it has a multitude of soul/spirit shards, if you will, that are constantly being formed and dissolved, emanating from it down into material experience and returning to it in order to add its individual experiences to that of the Higher Self.

He explained that what people generally mistake as the Higher Self is really the Lower Self, which he also called the Inner Child. He explained that the Inner Child is responsible for what we might call achievement of the Siddhis, or magic, precognition, seeing auras, such things, while the Higher Self is charged with our greater Destiny, making sure we experience the lessons it requires for its own growth, the synchronicities we experience and the completion of our life plans.

The Lower Self/Inner Child is playful and will take credit for being the Higher Self if we allow it to. The Lower Self is that which our Ego/Mind can interact with, not the Higher Self, at least, not directly. But we can access the Higher Self through the Lower Self/Inner Child. The Lower Self can be a messenger of sorts.

I really like that description, Rahkyt.





Considering the work that most of us still have yet to do with our Inner Child to heal her or him, the amount of self-deception that must be going on in this area has got to be much greater than is generally admitted or realized.



The lower self/inner child is always the last to get it. "Surely I must be fixed by now!, it cries", lol.

When we move in sync with what life is presenting to us, rather than resisting it, the movement itself dissolves the ego/inner child.

Each moment, life offers us an opportunity to coax the inner child out of the shadows where it has been hiding. Sometimes it is the most subtlest of clinging or belief never seen before, which is suddenly seen with great clarity when life is allowed to flow spontaneously, as it should.

This process takes time but with sincerity and humility, it works exactly as it should and not a moment sooner.
Jeanette

Meeting my inner child changed my life.

To make a long story short, at 3-1/2 years of age I was diagnosed with a disease with no known treatment or cure and my parents were told I would die before my 5th birthday. That did not happen, as you can tell since I'm still here. What did happen was years of being isolated, in the hospital more than out, abuse by a doctor, and a sudden remission at age 16 that no one can explain.

I came out of the whole experience distrusting everyone and everything, mostly myself. I was afraid to let people get too close to me, not only because they would hurt me, but because I was afraid they would see the monster I was inside...and run away.

Well, I met that 'monster' through a therapist who walked me through an experience of meeting my inner child. In that moment, that child, that little me, looked at grown-up me with so much love and acceptance and peace that I must have cried for an hour straight. The 'monster' I thought I carried within me taught me, in that moment, who I was at my innermost core. I had unconsciously hidden 'her' away to protect her/me from what I was going through as a young child so it wouldn't hurt so much.

That experience has never changed...inner child carries only love, acceptance and peace. I, on the other, have changed by realizing the greatest gift I can give to the people in my life is that same love and acceptance in peace.

I consider her my higher self. Through her, I have learned to connect with what I call the stream of collective consciousness...much like what you have described as the Higher Self, Rahkyt.

How often to we speak the same 'language' but use different words? How often are we misunderstood because of different definitions? I was about to disagree with both of you, Jenci and Rahkyt, only to find in telling my story that we were saying the same thing. Another lesson learned. Thank you.

[Erich]

Because your Higher Self and Source is still your ego!

It is a cover story.

“I don't need a guide, I will go on my own sweet way...I'll go happily round in circles....and I'm going to take as many others as I can with me...let's go!...follow meeeee!”

That is precisely why you are here: you are lost!

Oh I forgot, you chose to come here .... to do what?

An idea has infiltrated this and other forums, to trust YOUR inner instincts, YOUR intuition, because that is YOUR higher self...rubbish!
How sure are you that YOUR intuitions and instincts originated from “you”?

This higher self is merely your ego, clinging to its self-identity still.
It is still all about ME!!!
Ideas are put out there, to make you feel it's going to be alright - you have arrived, so no more searching! You do not have to be aware of anything...just be ...just snooze ..zz...zzz....zzzz...zzzzzzzzz!

Do you honestly think it is that simple?
So you can hold your breath, stick your toe in your left ear and a chakra turns blue....so what?!
Did it free you from your clinging?...NO!

When learning anything, we follow the same process of going step by step.

Through a method, we start at the beginning and work through the stages.
Once we understand, we find confidence and real freedom,
so that when something is not working, we know how to put it right.

The method of meditation is the same.
To say one does not have to learn anything is a misdirection.
Yes, you are “that which you seek” - but there is a lot more to it than just those words.
You wouldn't say that to an enlightened being...unless you wanted to make them laugh!

We have to learn to unlearn.
To uncover the layers of self deception.
It is not that difficult, but our habitual patterning keeps getting in the way.
That is why it is wise to follow a system to undo the knots, and so find freedom.

Of course, the ego wants to do its own thing, and say, “I am already free!”
This is merely a conceptual freedom. We are still clinging to the concept of “I” am “something”.
It is the same old habit that keeps the noose around our necks.

Once you have a sound method, you will find total confidence.
Finding total confidence means there is nothing to ever be defended.
No one can ever pull the wool over your eyes again...or the noose around your neck!

If you react to this, ask - who is it that is reacting?

To uncover the truth you really do have to take yourself apart.
When you have realised Emptiness, then there is nothing more:


My dream-like form
Appeared to dream-like beings
To show them the dream-like path
Which leads to dream-like enlightenment.

Best wishes for the new year!!
Tony

More of the usual theme from OP: I'm right and you're wrong.

[amedeejp]

Hi there all you posters,

Enjoyed reading all of this. Thanks for starting the thread Tony. I liked Dawn's version. I'm one of few words. When I realized what the monks were saying in as many ways as there are minds to understand it I had to accept I am responsible to myself. (spent many hours, days, years maybe lifetimes, getting to know myself) Live, and treat others as I would like to be treated.
Not very original, sorry. Be happy in all situations; they will change.

Love to all of You and many blessings now and in the coming year!

Highest Regards,

John

[Mark]

The ego is always grasping or resisting which stops the natural flow - (trying to maintain the big 'I am' position or fear of how it is being pereived.

When the ego dissolves, there's no grasping or resisting. There's just a flow and what emerges is a natural personality that's free to express spontaneously.


Enlightened beings can be quirky and funny. I am thinking about Tolle and Mooji for example. They both make me laugh and they are both very individual :)

Jeanette

I like both of them. :) There is something about such people that is palpable when you are in their presence.

I guess getting to that place where you can exist totally in the Now, not judging the moment through the lens of experience or personality is what all of the discussion is about, beyond the definitions and conceptions of "Higher Self" and how ego relates.


How often to we speak the same 'language' but use different words? How often are we misunderstood because of different definitions? I was about to disagree with both of you, Jenci and Rahkyt, only to find in telling my story that we were saying the same thing. Another lesson learned. Thank you.

Hi Belle, to me that is the core of most disagreement, argumentation. Language, expression. Tower of Babel stuff. It gets in the way so much. See it so often in places like this where we don't have the benefit of body language or intonation. We often mean the same thing, speak of the same ideas, just use our experiences, our lenses, our perception, to explain it and, when you get down to it, boil it all down, it's all the same. Isn't that wonderful?? If you can get there and figure out that you are there. LOL

[Davidallany]

Tony, sir.

If you react to this, ask - who is it that is reacting?
That is the right question and the heart of the matter.

May I ask you Tony, who is it that would take oneself apart to understand the total picture?
In your current understanding, how does one take the self apart? Are there specific methods or steps to achieving that goal?
Thank you and may you have a very happy new year clelebration with yours.

[TraineeHuman]

Hello TH!

Could explain what "inter-subjective" means? Sounds good, but I don't have a clue!

Regarding the "crutch" idea...you seem to be implying that that is a negative.
As I know I currently have a limp, I am delighted and proud to accept the help and support of a crutch that is the right size and shape for me. I don't see any shame in that at all: and I know that, one day, I will be happy to throw that crutch away.

I suppose if one doesn't feel one is limping, then a crutch would be excess baggage, as you say.

In every other aspect of life, I am extremely grateful for all the teachers who have ever helped me: they have passed on their experience, and through my understanding and practice, I have been able to experience things for myself.
The spiritual journey, for me, is no different. Finding a teacher who does it for you isn't necessarily easy - I have been let down quite badly by a couple of "gurus", but that has in no way diminished my search, or my utter respect for those who offer wisdom arising from practice.

I don't feel that "my path" is much different from anyone else's path.
Therefore, I am happy to listen to, reflect and hopefully learn from those who have trodden the path before me.

Perhaps it comes down to the strength of one's inner questions.
If the questions are so overwhelmingly strong and all-encompassing, it feels as if there is no time to waste wandering around, limping...pass that crutch, will you?!!

Hello Kathie,

“Inter-subjective” is a philosophical term. That might be enough to lose some readers’ interest straight away. However, I guess it does tie in with this thread in certain ways. So I’ll try to explain what intersubjectivity means.

Let me start by saying that we are very much subjects rather than objects;
causes rather than effects;
active, rather than passive victims;
in “I-Thou” relationship to each other rather than “I-it”;
consciousnesses, and even consciousness itself, rather than things, or than anything that can be pinned down;
the “I” that lies within, on the “other side” of me;
alive rather than dead (even after our physical death).

And that is just us even without our Higher Selves, even without our Lower Selves. If people could only begin to truly, truly realise and see that this is what they are like right now, at whatever incomplete stage of development they may be at, that would take them probably about halfway to the highest possible level of enlightenment and liberation and beyond. Half the journey would be over. (As I guess Dawn has mentioned more than once, there is eventually a point where you start experiencing everything in your life as one big Christmas party that doesn’t really ever stop, even though people you work with or live with might be experiencing the very same exact situation as hell.) I wonder what will it take to get some of you guys to bring "Heaven" right down to earth and into the earth?

This ties in with having or using a crutch. It seems to me the area of spirituality, or the Higher Self, is the area where we are the most unlimited, and the most able to kind of snap our fingers and – so to speak – get up and walk if a minute ago we were lame. I guess I’m saying this because I’ve seen sooo many intelligent, genuine people clinging to meditation methods or teachers and, to my perception, becoming kind of lame or stale as a result. Very rarely, at least in my experience, does a spiritual or psychological teacher teach anything that you can’t discover for yourself. Hasn’t anybody else listened properly to Krishnamurti’s message? (After all, he genuinely was a reincarnation of the Buddha.) By the way, I've looked very deeply inside so many of the above-mentioned intelligent, genuine people and believe I have deeply and clearly seen what was going on with their teacher.

I’ve actually had over a hundred spiritual or psychological teachers that I’ve worked with intensively in my life, for months or years. I’ve spent probably more time on working to develop myself -- even just in classes, etc or in doing specific "homework" -- than I have working to earn a living. In the end only two, maybe three, were more of a help than a hindrance. (And notice: all of them were huge hindrances as well.)

That doesn’t include the Gods. The ones Tony mentioned, and several others, have been my most important teachers, though I prefer to use different names for them, such as Pan and Gaia/Kali. (The black “Kali” is an impostor. There is more than one “Kali”, but I only deal with the genuine one, while black magicians work with the phony Kalis, who also have names such as Hecuba, etc.) As my teachers, the Gods have all gone to the most extraordinary lengths to trick me into being more self-reliant at every point. You would be surprised. The Tao Te Ching says that the greatest teacher is the one where you don’t even notice that you’re being taught.

OK, the rest of my answer to the question of what inter-subjectivity means is probably less on-topic. Briefly, the philosopher Descartes said: let’s try doubting everything. (Which everybody should do, at least once in their life. How else can you find true honesty with yourself? If you're serious, you have to do this. How else can you stop believing and assuming, rather than admitting that you either know/understand or you don’t know/understand regarding any question?)

Is there then anything we can say we know for certain? The answer is: yes, the one thing we can be absolutely certain about in the face of total skepticism is that “I exist” – or, to be strictly accurate, that “consciousness exists here (inside of “me”, whatever “me” is)”. So that’s something that’s 100% certain.

Descartes then pointed out that anything the consciousness that is apparently “me” directly experiences will also be certain. It so turns out that what everybody directly experiences is the same. (Yes! The fear that I experience is exactly the same as the fear you experience, except maybe in the degree of its intensity. The feeling of a flower petal on my fingertips is exactly the same as yours, except for any interpretations you or I add on.) So although it’s subjective in the sense that it’s experienced individually and relying solely on the “authority” of your individual consciousness, it’s certain. In fact, philosophers have proved (and all agree) that whatever is experienced inter-subjectively is all that is certain.

[Jeffrey]

If one is practising for ones own enlightenment, life is quite simple, the practice is quite simple.
But if one wishes to benefit others, much study, reflection and meditation is needed.

The following elaborates a bit more on this subject.

Here's an excerpt from My Master, by Swami Vivekananda:


His principle was: first form character, first earn spirituality, and results will come of themselves. His favorite illustration was: “When the lotus opens, the bees come of their own accord to seek the honey. So let the lotus of your character be full-blown, and the results will follow.”

Regards,

Vivek

[wolf_rt]

Ok so i'm pretty confused by all this...

If you completely remove the EGO, surely you are then one with the source/god???

I mean ALL thought is in relation to past/future
all conversation/words are in relation to thaught
all feeling are in relation to thought/experiance
surely if EVERYBODY only lived in the now or just observed and experienced without judgement or thought, then the world would end on the spot? and everybody would have 'ascended' or returned to source?
there could be no communication. indeed i cant see how there could be ANYTHING?

surely this is not what 'god' is looking for?
i believe we are here to experience, but experience what? If nobody had an ego surely we would live as animals? not necessarily a bad thing, but to what end???

am i completely off base here?

[Phil_7050]

One cannot live without the ego. The Ego is a part of who you are, you're unique image/mask that seperates you from universal consciousness.
Look at the key phrases of our Zodiacs:

Aries - I am
Taurus - I have
Gemini - I think
Cancer - I feel
Leo - I will
Virgo - I analyze
Libra - I weigh
Scorpio - I desire
Sagittarius - I see
Capricorn - I use
Aquarius - I know
Pisces - I perceive

I believe the Higher Self is the fully evolved Ego, your midheaven in your birth chart, the true being you strive to be consciously or not. In the end, we are here to grow together with the help of our Ego (negative or fear-based traits of our Inner Child) to understand it, forgive and send it love... Just like how Inelia Benz puts it;)
I believe we are leaving the age of Pisces (perception) as we enter the age of Aquarius (knowledge)... O Father Time.

Although I am only 22, I still see seniors and adults act/express themselves like children... It is time for us to leave Neverland.

My two cents

[Dawn]

Wolf_rt: If you completely remove the EGO, surely you are then one with the source/god???

I mean ALL thought is in relation to past/future
all conversation/words are in relation to thaught
all feeling are in relation to thought/experiance
surely if EVERYBODY only lived in the now or just observed and experienced without judgement or thought, then the world would end on the spot? and everybody would have 'ascended' or returned to source?
there could be no communication. indeed i cant see how there could be ANYTHING?

surely this is not what 'god' is looking for?
i believe we are here to experience, but experience what? If nobody had an ego surely we would live as animals? not necessarily a bad thing, but to what end???

I love it when someone has questions... aren't questions just the most wonderful ways of opening the door to new understandings? Thank you for this! I'll take a stab at answering and maybe... just maybe I can come up with some great question when I'm done which will lead us further- well I hope so anyway

At one time in my life I was extremely clear. I had absolutely no thoughts and slept only 1-1.5 hours daily. That lasted 7 years, and then I began to notice the mind began to entertain thoughts again. 9 years from the beginning of that time period I began to sleep 5-7 hours nightly and I settled into ordinary human experience. Today, about 16 years from when that time ended, I have a pretty regular life. But for 9 years, my life was not ordinary at all.

Perhaps you have a deep belief that it is the thoughts in our mind which create our world. That might be why you believe that if our mind stopped being busy all the time, the world would end. Well, part of the reason for going on the spiritual quest is that you learn that this is just not so. The world continues without your thoughts, and your relationship to it changes to one of awe and gratitude. As things display themselves to you (events, 3D objects, and 3D beings) you have such a deep ecstatic response of gratitude and love that those words can't even come close to the actual experience. Every moment is orgasmic, filled with such potential and diversity.

So, what does create this universe? Clearly it is not created by thinking and thoughts. What then is creating it?

Is there a 'creator being' that set it all up and then invited us to enjoy the creation? Perhaps that being created us and we play under the watchful awareness of this creator?

Or, are we the creators, yet on a level where our little minds cannot follow the artists brush, which we weal from our true nature?

Is the mind that creates so amazing that it created the 'little mind' that thinks the thoughts we tussle with in the human experience? Did we create the ego being discussed on this thread?

Is there a beingness so omnipotent, that it set about creating the experience of being limited, just for fun? If the answer to this is 'yes' then did this (or maybe the ignorance of what it might be like) lead to a reckless experience here in 3D?

What are you? Who am I? And... what the heck are we doing here?

[markpierre]

Oh, the game is up. Hi Pie'n'eal

I'm not sure I agree entirely, but mostly because I don't know what to believe anymore. I 'believe in' nothing to be honest. Happily I've had enough experiences to be certain that what I don't know, is sublime. It's a small consolation. And my ego is satisfied to go along for the time being as if it had any choice, but I can't speak about tomorrow. But I think you do an interesting dance sometimes between allusions of a true experience, and allusions to a method. I don't recognize that experience in many people, I can probably count them still on as many digits as I have if I include my nose.

I do agree fundamentally that perceptual mind operating on any level, has little if anything to do with reality. My first guess is that it has nothing whatever to do with it, but people don't like to hear that. They like to think they participate in their 'awakenings'.

I guess I just can't imagine how anymore. Not because I haven't tried, but because nothing changes in me as a result of anything I do, and especially anything I think. How I seem to change is in less and less 'doing', and less and less
'comprehending'. Less and less interest in engaging with my own mind at all. It 'just happens' by my reckoning. But this is a current revelation after years and years of unnecessary suffering and study.

I advocate for methods of 'undoing' and I can blather endlessly about that because its one of few things that I'm qualified to talk about. But it's largely just memories of an education. Even the topic of healing makes no sense anymore. Heal what? What's sick?
But if a discussion is to be valuable (in my opinion), it can offer the confrontation, but it should also offer a solution, and I don't have one anymore other than don't worry, your time will come. Maybe the confrontation is a moot point.

It just 'feels' like mind perceives 'doing' as productivity which 'feels' good, until it becomes 'felt' that nothing has been accomplished. Then 'doing' is experienced as distraction, an anxious 'feeling', until it's 'felt' that enough is enough. Then 'doing' is felt by the mind as turmoil and no further 'doing' can sedate it.

Like crushing an atom. You can compress it into the smallest space imaginable, but you can't annihilate it. And if the compression continues, what happens next? Is any perceptual/conceptual mind going to willingly take that step? I'm suggesting the kind of expansion that we like to consider and base our work-shopping on, is more like an effect of meeting the impossible. What cannot be done by the human mind.

Hey, that doesn't need to make sense by the way.

I always really enjoy you.

[Jenci]

Ok so i'm pretty confused by all this...

If you completely remove the EGO, surely you are then one with the source/god???

I mean ALL thought is in relation to past/future
all conversation/words are in relation to thaught
all feeling are in relation to thought/experiance
surely if EVERYBODY only lived in the now or just observed and experienced without judgement or thought, then the world would end on the spot? and everybody would have 'ascended' or returned to source?
there could be no communication. indeed i cant see how there could be ANYTHING?

surely this is not what 'god' is looking for?
i believe we are here to experience, but experience what? If nobody had an ego surely we would live as animals? not necessarily a bad thing, but to what end???

am i completely off base here?

Hi Wolf,

This is confusing to the mind because the mind only understands in time - past and future. Even the mind's understanding of the present is not actually the Now, it is more like what has happened in the last few seconds or about to happen in the next few.

I don't know how the world would look if everyone lived like this. I don't think it would stop. I could guess it would be a lot simpler and quieter. I don't use the word ascension because I think it is misleading - in that there is somewhere to go or reach. There is a Zen saying.

Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood carry water.

There is still experiencing of life after. The same things are done what is different is there is not a story attached to what is being experienced......

"I've got to chop this wood and don't have the time. Only if I had done it yesterday then I could get everything I need done today done. After the wood, I've got to get the water and if I don't hurry up I won't have time to cook the dinner and get to work. I wish I didn't have to work but I got to pay the bills. I hate the boss because of what he said to be yesterday...so I am going to tell him what I think of him. If only I didn't have to chop this wood, then my life would be easier......ouch I've just chopped my finger now! Now I really am going to be late......

When there is only experiencing in the now, there is just chopping wood with no egoic story about it. It's less exhausting but quite ordinary :)


Jeanette

[wolf_rt]

Thanks Dawn and Jeanette.

I don't believe the world would end if 'I' stopped thinking....

I can see that it may be possible to 'not think' in a garden of eden scenario... but were not there atm...
how is life possible without thought. How do you find food? it takes thought to remove your trousers before you defaecate... to have enough water to see you through... ect...
or are practical thoughts not included in what we are talking about here? if so where do you draw the line?

Why would you be chopping wood without thought? it takes thought to connect feeling cold to building a fire.. it takes thought to build a fire...

i'm not trying to be difficult here.. i really am just confused...

even in a garden of eden scenario, thought is necessary to connect the feeling of hunger to the need to eat?


by ascension in my previous post i actually meant de-materializeing as Castaneda did.

Is it possible to act on a feeling without thought?


"surely if EVERYBODY only lived in the now or just observed and experienced without judgement or thought, then the world would end on the spot?"
I'm not entirely sure what i meant by this... i don't believe it in a literal sense...

I'ts my belief that our purpose on this world is to experience, so the creator can grow... How would NOBODY having a thought affect this?

[greybeard]

Hi Wolf rt
Its as though there is a working mind separate from egoic mind.
So when the mind is quiet normal activity just carries on.
A parallel is-- thousands of body activities happen all by themselves simultaneously -- heart beats, breathing happens, food digested and on it goes.
The body does not need though to operate efficiently, in fact worry and negative emotions can adversely affect the health of the body.
Negativity also affects our life situation.
Chris

[wolf_rt]

Thanks Chris.. that makes some sense...

If i were to use riding a bicycle as an example though, thought is necessary to learn, but once learned, thought is no longer necessary. So is it always going to be a journey that begins with thought and progresses to no thought?

[jorr lundstrom]

Ive never been on a spiritual path. I dunno wot a spiritual path is, but I imagine

its some kind of path someone imagines leading somewhere. LOL

Ive always been here. Ive always had an ego, which I believed to be

myself, which it of course wasnt. I have an ego now too. I dont believe it to be myself

any longer. Its nice if one can turn off the ego temporarily. Ive met some people

in my life that have been without an ego. They have not been able to take care of themselves,

other people and institutions took care of them. A few have had very nice energyfields

surrounding them, but unable to handle a daily life they can be described as divine idiots.

The five last days Ive been watching a new kinda state of confusion. It has been very

fascinating, almost ecstatic, to watch this state. Im not that confusion, its something

Im watching. And something is watching the watcher. LOL I dunno wot it is that watch

the watcher, but its a lovely thing to be in.


And Dawn, what the heck are we doing here? Thats one of my questions, celebrating

its 50 years anniversary. Still beats me. I dunno if I will get an answer ever. LOL

[greybeard]

Thanks Chris.. that makes some sense...

If i were to use riding a bicycle as an example though, thought is necessary to learn, but once learned, thought is no longer necessary. So is it always going to be a journey that begins with thought and progresses to no thought?

Lets say that oneness gives a connection to all experience (dont know if its true)
Then there is a data base of everything that has been done, every feeling every sensation and on.
There have been experiments done with rats where when going through the maze was mastered--- their peer group on the other side of the world got it right first time. It wasnt even genetic, though the second generation had that inherent ability.

I know nothing--- lol.

Higher Self knows all.

Chris

[Tony]

You have free choice.
You have free choice to disagree.
You have free choice to choose your own words.
You have free choice to cut through all conceptual ideas.
You have free choice to cut through your irritation.

All you have to do is recognise a process within your confused state of being...changing.
It is bound to through up conflict. That very process is ego losing its grip.
Don't over react, don't try and prove anything, or improve anything,
just note what is going on, in your own mind-consciousness.

Don't fear losing your grip...that is ego again!

To break out of this 'seemingly solid state-matrix' just stop...now!
When consciousness moves out it loses its still inner essence.

Yes, you have to do things, but having done them....rest again.
Do not keep going on and on and on and on!

To repeat, ego is just ones consciousness clinging. What else can ego be?
To get anything done we need a little ego...then rest again.

Merely rest in your pure naturalness, which is beyond all concepts of mind-consciousness.
Call it whatever you like....actually don't call it anything! This merely limits the experience.
That was the point of the Opening Post!

( Sorry if I haven't replied to people, but I'm still putting up ten fence panels and posts.
Digging holes, mixing concrete, taking tea breaks...as one gets older the tea breaks get longer!) )

[The One]

Isnt it amazing what we can achieve if we spread love and kindness :hug:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Jenci]

Thanks Dawn and Jeanette.

I don't believe the world would end if 'I' stopped thinking....

I can see that it may be possible to 'not think' in a garden of eden scenario... but were not there atm...
how is life possible without thought. How do you find food? it takes thought to remove your trousers before you defaecate... to have enough water to see you through... ect...
or are practical thoughts not included in what we are talking about here? if so where do you draw the line?

Why would you be chopping wood without thought? it takes thought to connect feeling cold to building a fire.. it takes thought to build a fire...

i'm not trying to be difficult here.. i really am just confused...

even in a garden of eden scenario, thought is necessary to connect the feeling of hunger to the need to eat?


by ascension in my previous post i actually meant de-materializeing as Castaneda did.

Is it possible to act on a feeling without thought?


"surely if EVERYBODY only lived in the now or just observed and experienced without judgement or thought, then the world would end on the spot?"
I'm not entirely sure what i meant by this... i don't believe it in a literal sense...

I'ts my belief that our purpose on this world is to experience, so the creator can grow... How would NOBODY having a thought affect this?

Hi Wolf,

I know you are not being difficult.....it's good you are asking these questions.

Thought can arise in the mind. It can also arise beyond the mind - out of the nothingness. When thought comes from here it is spontaneous and it is not attached to any fears or desires. It's far wiser than the mind, as Chris says, the higher self knows all but it only imparts that knowledge as and when is needed in the situation and then very often it is gone after that.

Thoughts still arise from the mind but eventually egoic mind thoughts are recognised for what they are and are not paid attention to. When the egoic mind is not paid attention to, then it has less energy to get the person to act out from its fears and desires. The thoughts are just left to drift by like clouds in the sky without being acted upon.

Shifting from this paying attention to the mind's thoughts, for me, took practice and dedication.

I would question every thought that arose.
Who thinks this?
Can I find the person presenting this thought?
And then I would go looking for her but she would fade in the looking.
What fades is not the real, so she and her thought were just seen for what they are, illusion.

I did this enquiry relentlessly and it was exhausting at times but eventually something just learned and there was no need to enquire any more.

My mind can do what it likes. It does not affect what I am.

Sometimes my mind will grab my attention and trick me into believing a thought and it can get quite uncomfortable.
But something here doesn't mind that either.

Jeanette

[TraineeHuman]

wolf_rt and Bollinger: I hope the following helps.

In some or most forms of meditation, the primary instruction you seem to be asked to follow is to somehow gently stop thinking, or to gradually allow the thoughts to fall off and be replaced by silence.

In my experience, people who have become very experienced at meditation realise that it’s not so much a matter of “turning off” all their thoughts as it is of “turning down the volume” of the chattering mind. That chattering doesn’t actually ever stop as long as you’re physically awake – unless maybe you go into some kind of trance.

Let me describe what the “chattering” is made up of. It has layers. According to my backyard research, the most superficial layer seems to pretty much repeat itself over and over, with few changes, after every three or four minutes. It’s made up of a lot of questions about “What impression / effect did I make?” in events during the last two days, plus self-judgments or self-congratulations; and also with planning or rehearsing what will happen in the next few hours or, usually, within the next day; plus some questions about your safety or security, and about keeping the body working and healthy.

You could say much of that “chattering” is worry, and also that its concern with making a favorable impression amounts to sometimes being a victim of conditioning of some kind or other. But really, I say this is a rather robot-like mechanism that is maintaining your physical and social survival and safety.

There is a deeper layer of mental and emotional activity underneath this. It is all about replaying whatever memory “tapes” you have stored in your unconscious that are to do with the psychological issues the last three days (or up to the last two weeks) have brought up. I would say this layer is pretty much the same thing as what many people sometimes describe “the ego” to be.

A deeper layer again is the inner child. This is where you drop all your identities and roles. The inner child is in touch with how you really feel about everything all the time. You become "volatile" in a good way like a young child is, who’ll be crying one minute and suddenly stop and be gleeful the next.

These are the first three layers of mind. As I said, meditation involves turning down “the volume” of the first layer, and also of the second layer, and to some degree the third layer. There are even deeper layers, but I suspect I would call most or all of them the Higher Self, and in my experience what happens in meditation is that you kind of put your attention on them. By now we are in very subtle and peaceful and free territory.

[Sebastion]

Dear Sebastion,

I have been on spiritual paths for over forty years and have been grateful for every nuance of teaching. One can spend much time, studying, reflecting and meditating on a simple sentence.

My journey started with much anger and frustration at the world, thinking, “There has to be more to life than this?”

If one is practising for ones own enlightenment, life is quite simple, the practice is quite simple.
But if one wishes to benefit others, much study, reflection and meditation is needed.


I always have a feeling of unfinished business, and feel totally at home with the Buddha's teachings. It is for the individual to decide, here we are just sharing thoughts and feelings ...and a little experience.

Maybe all we have to do to get an inkling of past lives, is to look at our intentions and inclinations now.

A student called Marpa was rowing across a river, after a journey from India to Tibet. A jealous friend threw all his notes that he had collected from teachers, over board. He of course was very upset. His teacher said, “What remains in your heart, you understood, the notes on paper were things you didn't understand anyway.”

Emptiness merely means nothing beyond...if a thing is empty, then it is totally clear, no obstructions, purity itself!





Dear Tony,

I can appreciate your 40 years as I have about 6 years less then you and started out with the exact same frustrations! The major differences between your path(s) and mine was that you obviously had access to formal teachings whereas I had no such access for many reasons. Therefore I was left to find the truth through my own devices. Obviously this was before computers were invented and on the market. I had no choice but to turn within to find answers!

My reasoning regarding Buddha and Christ was very simple. They knew what they knew because they "somehow" directly experienced within themselves and reasoning further, they were as human as anyone could be. If they found a way to "know" firsthand then the possibility was there for me as well and I became stone cold determined to find a way within, thus the journey began.

Teachings and teachers have a rightful place as it should be yet cannot hold a candle over direct experience. The journey itself is an alone process and no matter what you are taught one still has to do it individually. You can "know" for yourself, it just takes serious intent, fearlessness and some serious passion!

Read a passage once which stated "From the beginning, if one can speak of a beginning, the Power was God and the Way was God's Way. There is no other power nor any other way". Reasoning that , if you are god, then what "way" is there other than "your" way?

[Tarka the Duck]

Teachings and teachers have a rightful place as it should be yet cannot hold a candle over direct experience. The journey itself is an alone process and no matter what you are taught one still has to do it individually. You can "know" for yourself, it just takes serious intent, fearlessness and some serious passion!



Absolutely!!

[Tony]

Sorry Tony, couldn't disagree more, but it's pointless saying why, or quoting accepted past masters because we are in the realms of the experiential, and my experience here differs greatly to yours obviously.

To play Devil's advocate here - this pushing that comes from certain traditions or quarters to deny the existence of any higher self - this stating that we are merely ego, ego is flawed, so therefore we are nothing but emptiness contained within a flawed vessel? Would it not be the perfect primer for the acceptance of the "hive-mind" mentality, and the subsuming of individuality on this physical plane into a predictively reactive extension of the will of a ruling financial and intellectual elite?

For me? The self does disappear, but not in dimensional existence. Higher self, for me, is an expression of source within higher dimensional reality, but still is tied to the "physicality" of dimensional existence. The higher self resides in the heart, and the heart is the meeting place between lower and higher dimensions, but also is a reflection or refraction of the the meeting place between dimensional existence and "source". It is the seat of alchemy, where the male and female principles are combined with the magic/spirit/dragon to acheive unity, which is reunion with source, which is coming back to our true and only nature, which is Love.

Dear Music,

I see what you are saying.
What was meant by the opening post was that any finding of a higher self or source is merely a conceptual identity, an idea of higher self or source. The 'higher self' or 'source' would be beyond finding anything, because one would be 'it'. So destroy anything that is found...even the Buddha!

Ego is merely consciousness holding onto some 'thing' or 'idea'.
'Pure' consciousness is what we are. Empty is merely a way of translating the word 'pure'.

As there is no 'thing' it cannot be controlled by any outside force.


Tony

[Tony]

Dear Sebastion,

I have been on spiritual paths for over forty years and have been grateful for every nuance of teaching. One can spend much time, studying, reflecting and meditating on a simple sentence.

My journey started with much anger and frustration at the world, thinking, “There has to be more to life than this?”

If one is practising for ones own enlightenment, life is quite simple, the practice is quite simple.
But if one wishes to benefit others, much study, reflection and meditation is needed.


I always have a feeling of unfinished business, and feel totally at home with the Buddha's teachings. It is for the individual to decide, here we are just sharing thoughts and feelings ...and a little experience.

Maybe all we have to do to get an inkling of past lives, is to look at our intentions and inclinations now.

A student called Marpa was rowing across a river, after a journey from India to Tibet. A jealous friend threw all his notes that he had collected from teachers, over board. He of course was very upset. His teacher said, “What remains in your heart, you understood, the notes on paper were things you didn't understand anyway.”

Emptiness merely means nothing beyond...if a thing is empty, then it is totally clear, no obstructions, purity itself!





Dear Tony,

I can appreciate your 40 years as I have about 6 years less then you and started out with the exact same frustrations! The major differences between your path(s) and mine was that you obviously had access to formal teachings whereas I had no such access for many reasons. Therefore I was left to find the truth through my own devices. Obviously this was before computers were invented and on the market. I had no choice but to turn within to find answers!

My reasoning regarding Buddha and Christ was very simple. They knew what they knew because they "somehow" directly experienced within themselves and reasoning further, they were as human as anyone could be. If they found a way to "know" firsthand then the possibility was there for me as well and I became stone cold determined to find a way within, thus the journey began.

Teachings and teachers have a rightful place as it should be yet cannot hold a candle over direct experience. The journey itself is an alone process and no matter what you are taught one still has to do it individually. You can "know" for yourself, it just takes serious intent, fearlessness and some serious passion!

Read a passage once which stated "From the beginning, if one can speak of a beginning, the Power was God and the Way was God's Way. There is no other power nor any other way". Reasoning that , if you are god, then what "way" is there other than "your" way?

You are right, but a little help may be appreciated.

[Tony]

:peace:Inner confidence.

Inner confidence is synonymous with inner happiness.
No outside force can disturb it.
When you know your true essence, there is no thing to defend.
One can be totally open, with no expectations.

There is no clinging, thoughts just come and slide off.
Ego will still show its face, but it does not last.

Once one has a certain degree of inner confidence,
ones needs fall into the background.
The expression of this inner confidence is only
due to the needs of others.

The altruistic attitude is the way of the Bodhisattva.
The altruistic intention is called Bodhichitta.
Of course this motivation isn't perfect, but it's
facing the right direction: one makes an effort!

It is all about mind-training. That is why we are here.
Depending on how urgent one sees this to be, we may live
out our life in mind-entertainment or mind training.

We have to honest with ourselves, and play with
not too tight not too loose.

There is more fun in all this than you can imagine.
When the tap is left on, what wonders can flow!

Tony

[Sebastion]

Tony

Your presence on this forum is a very high blessing and you are much appreciated by this one for sure!

[Tarka the Duck]

Dear Music

Your statement that "certain traditions or quarters" state that "we are nothing but emptiness contained within a flawed vessel" is far from the truth when it comes to Tibetan Buddhism. I can only speak from practice in that tradition.

The awakened state is said to be empty in essence, cognisant in nature and its manifestation is unconfined, compassionate energy.
It is not just about emptiness!

There are many precise and wise teachings that speak of the problems inherent on the path: for example, if one remained in the state of emptiness without the presence of lucidity/cognisance, one would be in stupidity (Nihilism).
Likewise, if one rested only in cognisance, without the quality of spacious emptiness, one would perceive everything vividly as being real and truly existing (Eternalism).
Being empty while perceiving, and perceiving while being empty, it is said that flow of unconfined capacity is compassion (what you may call Love).

In this openness, everything arises and is liberated.
Clarity and emptiness are two wings of the same bird.

[Tony]

Thanks Chris.. that makes some sense...

If i were to use riding a bicycle as an example though, thought is necessary to learn, but once learned, thought is no longer necessary. So is it always going to be a journey that begins with thought and progresses to no thought?

Hello Wolf-r,
You are right, we can switch to autopilot.

Let's say we have mind one and mind two.
One is the thinking mind, the other just knows.
Or there is a 'perceiver' and 'pure perception'.

“Two birds sat in a tree, one sat and watched, the other pecked at the fruit.”

The thinking mind says, “That is a red car!” = perceiver and the thing perceived. = Duality.
Knowing mind...already knows. = mere perception. = Non-duality.

Gradually we begin to see without a commentary.
Of course when we have to refer to a second person, we have to use words to describe the object.
Sometimes it is useful to reflect on a phrase, as in analytical meditation.

(I'm just putting up some fence panels, so I go through all the stages in my mind, like a rehearsal..making sure I'm doing things in the right order! If it were a job I did often, this would not be necessary.)

[Tarka the Duck]

@TraineeHuman

Thanks so much for such a detailed and thoughtful reply - I appreciate it. And I was surprised with myself when I could understand what you were saying! I am not familiar with philosophical language, but you managed to explain it simply - and much of what what you said matches my experience. I don't think we are so far apart in our feelings about 'things'...:cool:

Wow! Over a hundred teachers, eh? Impressive! I can count the teachers who have helped me on the fingers of one hand...;)

Kathie

[Ultima Thule]

Thanks Dawn and Jeanette.

I don't believe the world would end if 'I' stopped thinking....

I can see that it may be possible to 'not think' in a garden of eden scenario... but were not there atm...
how is life possible without thought. How do you find food? it takes thought to remove your trousers before you defaecate... to have enough water to see you through... ect...
or are practical thoughts not included in what we are talking about here? if so where do you draw the line?

Why would you be chopping wood without thought? it takes thought to connect feeling cold to building a fire.. it takes thought to build a fire...

i'm not trying to be difficult here.. i really am just confused...


I have only some occasions to share about that, perhaps they can help: at times, I have suddenly found myself doing something, driving a car etc., realizing that I don´t think about anything. I have even tried to think, but have been unable to do that. There is not one thought in my mind, yet I am completely aware and actually more capable to function than normally. I felt beyond thoughts. Thoughts in my case normally seem to come in the form of words and a sort of internal monologue/dialogue. The difference between that and these few occasions I´ve experienced is something like this:

A. Thoughts in form of words = -> decision -> action -> evaluation following each other as separate processes. You are thinking of acting, you have an image of the action, but it is somehow separate from yourself. Knowledge is separate that has to be thought to be applicable.

vs

B. No thoughts = decision, action and evaluation taking place at the same time. You just act, you are the action. You are the knowledge, it does not require thinking.

Hope this makes sense to you, that has been my limited experience of this.
UT

[TraineeHuman]

Most of the people who’ve posted on this thread seem to agree that your Higher Self needs some kind of lower self through which to express itself in your life. I don’t really agree.

I do consider, though, that it takes a fuller level (sorry about that word!) of awareness to actually see that the Higher Self is directly expressing itself in the finite 3D world. That means to be able e.g. “to see the world in a grain of sand”.

For me, that is what the tenth Zen oxherding picture in Dawn’s post #41 above is all about. I’m harping on this because, in my experience, this is key to overcoming all the suffering in your life (except some physical ailments). It’s key to how the Higher Self creates liberation in your whole life.

[Tarka the Duck]

I am in complete agreement with that, TH!

For us all, this thing they call enlightenment is obviously still theoretical and that is why we see things differently, and are having to work so hard to try and explain our "experiences". But these "experiences" are still conceptual at our stage of development.

As the old saying goes..."If two philosophers agree, one of them is not a philosopher. If two siddhis disagree, one of them is not a siddhi".

Kathie

[Tony]

I suppose it's like having a reference point, and discovering that there is no reference point. Meaning, one uses a concept at first, then destroys the concept....for the real 'thing'.

Happy Christmas and an incredibly fab New Year!!!

[Tony]

Tony, sir.

If you react to this, ask - who is it that is reacting?
That is the right question and the heart of the matter.

May I ask you Tony, who is it that would take oneself apart to understand the total picture?
In your current understanding, how does one take the self apart? Are there specific methods or steps to achieving that goal?
Thank you and may you have a very happy new year clelebration with yours.

When Empty Essence recognises its own nature...everything falls apart! The method is meditation.

I agree with people, that it is not easy finding one's precise method, and a suitable teacher, but that inner longing, will find a way.
I have been to loads of teachers, and felt...Hm no not quite 'it', but have been extremely grateful for what was experienced and to note my own reactions.
But because I did not throw the baby out with the bath water, and kept this inner longing....I found exactly, exactly, what I was looking for.

And oh! the surprise of what was patiently waiting for me!

[Jenci]

We begin our experience as the One but it's the wrong one.
Conscousness is completely identified with mind and body. That's all we are.

Our experience then separates as consciousness expands.
What we always believed to be our true self is then seen as only the lower self as we become conscious of a higher self, far greater than we could have ever imagined.

We move through a process of our consciousness expanding, while its indentification with the lower self diminishes.

I think there are no accidents here with the lower and higher selves seen as separate.
The awakening has to penetrate all of the illusion.

Ultimately it all merges as one - number 10 on the Zen picture.


I can't say that I have that experience yet but I will be sure to come on here and post about it when I get there:biggrin1:


Merry Christmas to all.
Jeanette

[minkton]

You might like the book by Athony Peake called "The Daemon" I think it is, which is about how the higher self resides in the non verbal side of the brain. It's fascinating and convincing.

[Kenn]

I feel that there is as many right answer's as there are right question's.
I also feel that the only wrong question is the one not asked.

Every ones path going "in" is different from the road that lead's "out".

Human's are a million question's wrapped in beautiful "paper" with a fancy "bow" made of breathes we take, and it is all amounts to the present we give each other which is ourselves and what we put in it.

I find hope in myself because i have learned to acknowledge beauty in others.

When you confront the subject honestly you have only "your" options to consider.

"Mine"
Destroy it
Cope with it
Live with it

There is no wrong answers just as there is no wrong way to do it. The process is important but it's liner. It can be easy or hard, long or short but it all determins on the person.

I find that were I am I can not live without all of "me" high, low, or shell. I feel I have made the proper introductions with me inside and like any "maybe" association it depends on my own actions in the "friendship". What I consider the biggest headache is when I get there will ask the final questions damming myself to start all over "Is this it?" "Am I there?".

I hope that I am still me when that time comes because "I" would just be happy that I made it somewhere. Although thinking about it if I made it I sure would miss all my family and friends.

Really I think I enjoy company of others too much to leave. As hard as it is to be in this "world" people and the road is what makes it worth while for me at least. This is were I am "found" or "stuck" I haven't made a decision yet.


Thank you Always
Kenn