What does it mean for you to free yourself of illusions?

[TraineeHuman]

A familiar theme in spirituality both Eastern (that’s Asian) and Western goes like this. Finding freedom from unhappiness, as well as from the Matrix and from all conditioning, involves “emptying” yourself. Cutting all attachments. And so on.

I’d like to explain something about the ancient Eastern spiritual discourse that not everybody may know. I’d like to talk about how the fundamental and first concept in all Eastern spirituality was “nothingness”. Not “God”. Not “energy”. Not “consciousness”. Not “non-duality” or “duality”. By the way, Eastern philosophy and psychology were always far more practical than their Western counterparts.

Many have pointed out that “nothingness” is not a very good translation into English. Something like “everythingness” would be much more accurate. The idea is, what Westerners think of as “empty” space is actually more full of reality than the solid forms such space lies between. A bit too weird, too far out for you, you might say. Alan Watts wrote that it was a little like the way most of the ancient Greeks saw the sky. They believed that the sky was a blue dome, and that the stars were small holes in that dome. Kind of like seeing the negative of a photograph. What you thought was the real or important part is the reverse.

Why do I even bother to mention this? Well, I have found that the most basic concepts of ancient Eastern thought were ingeniously selected to totally fit in with “mystical experience” of reality, and in practical ways also, while the Western concepts of form, space and energy were not. In particular, in my experience the secret to staying happy all the time, or nearly all the time, is simply to free/empty yourself of all desires and expectations and wants, except for the practical ones you need to fulfill to keep your body and family healthy and fed and physically and financially secure.

But while we’re mentioning form and space, let’s pause to reflect on “dark matter/energy”. For the benefit of anybody who hasn’t heard of “dark matter”, physicists have discovered that the primary forces having at least 80% or more control over the physical universe out in deep space aren’t anything like “matter” or “energy”. Let me first point out that physicists should more correctly call it “dark space”. They’ve already agreed it’s not matter or energy. So even cutting edge Western physics today confirms that the Eastern concept of “everythingness” or “space” is correct and the Western concept is not.

I’d like to ask if anybody has experiences they might like to share of how emptying themselves in some way has led to an inflow of greater abundance, spiritually or in any other way?

[modwiz]

A familiar theme in spirituality both Eastern (that’s Asian) and Western goes like this. Finding freedom from unhappiness, as well as from the Matrix and from all conditioning, involves “emptying” yourself. Cutting all attachments. And so on.

I’d like to explain something about the ancient Eastern spiritual discourse that not everybody may know. I’d like to talk about how the fundamental and first concept in all Eastern spirituality was “nothingness”. Not “God”. Not “energy”. Not “consciousness”. Not “non-duality” or “duality”. By the way, Eastern philosophy and psychology were always far more practical than their Western counterparts.

Many have pointed out that “nothingness” is not a very good translation into English. Something like “everythingness” would be much more accurate. The idea is, what Westerners think of as “empty” space is actually more full of reality than the solid forms such space lies between. A bit too weird, too far out for you, you might say. Alan Watts wrote that it was a little like the way most of the ancient Greeks saw the sky. They believed that the sky was a blue dome, and that the stars were small holes in that dome. Kind of like seeing the negative of a photograph. What you thought was the real or important part is the reverse.

Why do I even bother to mention this? Well, I have found that the most basic concepts of ancient Eastern thought were ingeniously selected to totally fit in with “mystical experience” of reality, and in practical ways also, while the Western concepts of form, space and energy were not. In particular, in my experience the secret to staying happy all the time, or nearly all the time, is simply to free/empty yourself of all desires and expectations and wants, except for the practical ones you need to fulfill to keep your body and family healthy and fed and physically and financially secure.

But while we’re mentioning form and space, let’s pause to reflect on “dark matter/energy”. For the benefit of anybody who hasn’t heard of “dark matter”, physicists have discovered that the primary forces having at least 80% or more control over the physical universe out in deep space aren’t anything like “matter” or “energy”. Let me first point out that physicists should more correctly call it “dark space”. They’ve already agreed it’s not matter or energy. So even cutting edge Western physics today confirms that the Eastern concept of “everythingness” or “space” is correct and the Western concept is not.

I’d like to ask if anybody has experiences they might like to share of how emptying themselves in some way has led to an inflow of greater abundance, spiritually or in any other way?

Great post. The highlighted part is how I experience the most happiness. Many people have no idea that the desire for the 'good life' is a road to hell. The syndrome of,"I will be happy once this happens, or I have this". The continuing peace of the moment is 'the secret'. Not making a Ferrari, you do not need, show up in your driveway.

[mekiac]

I’d like to ask if anybody has experiences they might like to share of how emptying themselves in some way has led to an inflow of greater abundance, spiritually or in any other way?

Thinking that illusions are bad, is just another illusion :confused:

The things we are doing, are done out of custom in 98% of the cases.
The trick is to be aware doing these actions you are doing automatically.
Just look closely at them and at some point you will notice: "Why am I doing this?!?! I don't want to do this". Congratulations, you have liberated yourself from another part of your programming an therefore of another guard that keeps you in this illusion.

I also recommend contemplating your actions of the day before going to sleep.
Not in a judgemental, but rather in a observing and sympathizing way.

It also can help, trying to understand what part is in charge of creating the programming and illusion in yourself and in others.
Thinking about this led to a rather big realisation for me.

[ROMANWKT]

Hi

Again second time today, hate doing this, http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15834-Its-all-nonsense-part-1


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?32896-MANIFESTING-IN-THE-MATRIX-its-all-nonsense-part-2

regards to all
roman

[Anchor]

Again second time today, hate doing this, ...showthread.php?15834-Its-all-nonsense-part-1...

... MANIFESTING-IN-THE-MATRIX-its-all-nonsense-part-2...

Roman, the threads you have done there are really really good. However, there is a risk that when you point references to two threads entitled "ITS ALL NONSENSE" that is it read as a comment on the thread in which the pointers appear: in other words , it could look like you were claiming the thread to be nonsense! Now, I am positive you don't mean it that way, but to someone who is perhaps new or not a frequent reader it may not be so clear.


To the question:

>What does it mean for you to free yourself of illusions?

For me it means the gradual and increasing understanding that the "reality" in which I am currently incarnated is a co-creation of thought by a group of individual parts of the one infinite creator, among whom I am but a single individuated conciousness/part. I have developed an understanding of that at an intellectual level and its pretty preposterous sounding. As the first rung on the ladder, one suspends belief in the illusion and via the act of faith one reaches for the next rung on the ladder and then one realizes that the unexplainable inkling that first drove me to climb to the next rung was true.

This knowledge gives my life a meaning in the new paradigm I find myself in, because it enables me to take the steps necessary to incrementally elevate my concious mind beyond the constraints of my incarnated mind and body, and reach for the next rung and the next.

Old paradigm - still here in it, but with a renewed perspective and a renewed orientation within that paradigm, and a clear path to the new one that's just around the corner.

[ROMANWKT]

Again second time today, hate doing this, ...showthread.php?15834-Its-all-nonsense-part-1...

... MANIFESTING-IN-THE-MATRIX-its-all-nonsense-part-2...

Roman, the threads you have done there are really really good. However, there is a risk that when you point references to two threads entitled "ITS ALL NONSENSE" that is it read as a comment on the thread in which the pointers appear: in other words , it could look like you were claiming the thread to be nonsense! Now, I am positive you don't mean it that way, but to someone who is perhaps new or not a frequent reader it may not be so clear.


To the question:

>What does it mean for you to free yourself of illusions?

For me it means the gradual and increasing understanding that the "reality" in which I am currently incarnated is a co-creation of thought by a group of individual parts of the one infinite creator, among whom I am but a single individuated conciousness/part. I have developed an understanding of that at an intellectual level and its pretty preposterous sounding. As the first rung on the ladder, one suspends belief in the illusion and via the act of faith one reaches for the next rung on the ladder and then one realizes that the unexplainable inkling that first drove me to climb to the next rung was true.

This knowledge gives my life a meaning in the new paradigm I find myself in, because it enables me to take the steps necessary to incrementally elevate my concious mind beyond the constraints of my incarnated mind and body, and reach for the next rung and the next.

Old paradigm - still here in it, but with a renewed perspective and a renewed orientation within that paradigm, and a clear path to the new one that's just around the corner.

Hi Anchor

Yes you are quite right I did not mean it that way, what I always try to point out is the understanding, not the content, that why I keep bringing up my old threads, the value, is and was not in what I wrote, it covers the understanding to all approaches to here and now, its just understanding, the greater the understanding the smaller the puzzle??

Regards as always to you Anchor

roman

[markpierre]

I don't know, the idea of 'emptiness' is tough for me to grasp. I don't believe that anyone ever empties themselves really, but only because I've never seen anything like that is often described.
The only emptiness I've ever experienced was a sense of loss and loss of my own identity entirely, and it lasted for a really long time. It's the single most terrible and devastating thing I can imagine a person can experience to be honest. I don't know. It still happens occasionally. Contrast that with the sublime experiences, and I'd pick sublime, but that's anything but empty. And those experiences come seemingly randomly too.

But I'll compare it to an experience I have most often that I enjoy probably most of all.
When I'm sitting still, and it doesn't matter how noisy or distracting the environment is, and my mind is just free. Not free of thoughts, but free in them. Any thought at all, good or evil if you cared to distinguish them. It's like my mind is made of Teflon and nothing can stick to it, it just flows on through. It enjoys every thought without analysis, and lets them go completely and automatically. I really can't say I know how to do that, only that it happens.

Damn. And that's a lot more than I would have ever thought to look for when I was doing my seeking thing. It makes everything I was wrong about and everything I hated worth it.

But I think it's a natural part of a natural order, that illusions peel away in layers and on levels. That different bodies makes a difference. That certain products are good for you. The policeman is your friend and the bank regards you as a customer. It gets deeper. Are you in your socks or are your socks on you? What about your body and even your mind? Is there a 'me'? because sometimes there's not.

It's like the friction of existing within what isn't true eventually burns up the dross.
Maybe empty of falseness. I can relate a bit to that.

[Camilo]

Once you realice this world is an illusion, you're able to stop wanting, and if you stop wanting, you're free, your source of suffering is gone.

[Tarka the Duck]

Thanks TH - an interesting thread!

The illusion is believing objects to have inherent existence.
It's not bad...it's just not reality!

In the Madhyamaka school of Buddhism (the Middle Way, beyond extremes), it is said that phenomena is beyond existence and non-existence.
This is known as the two truths: phenomena exists and does not exist.

Because of emptiness, everything it is able to arise.
Phenomena seems to be be solidly existing, but its nature is impermanent and constantly changing, and therefore it is empty of any true existence.
'Things' are just temporary arrangement of atoms, brought about by causes and conditions: they have no inherent existence of their own.

This doesn't mean they don't exist – it means they only exist in a relative way.
From the ultimate viewpoint, they are empty of existence.

There is the old story of a group of philosophers discussing whether objects truly exist: they are engaged in a lively debate, trying to prove the non-existence of the table before them.
There is a knock on the door, and a monk enters, carrying a tray of tea.
He stands there, unsure where to put the tray, until one of the philosophers tells him to put it on the table...

What we are discussing here is conventional mind trying to understand something that is beyond convention.
It does seem that it is only through meditation that we can hope to come to any understanding of what the experience of emptiness of self and phenomena might be.
Anything else is an conceptual and intellectual understanding, which is a crucial part of understanding, but not the whole story.


First there is a mountain.
Then there is no mountain.
Then there is.

[modwiz]

I don't know, the idea of 'emptiness' is tough for me to grasp. I don't believe that anyone ever empties themselves really, but only because I've never seen anything like that is often described.
The only emptiness I've ever experienced was a sense of loss and loss of my own identity entirely, and it lasted for a really long time. It's the single most terrible and devastating thing I can imagine a person can experience to be honest. I don't know. It still happens occasionally. Contrast that with the sublime experiences, and I'd pick sublime, but that's anything but empty. And those experiences come seemingly randomly too.

But I'll compare it to an experience I have most often that I enjoy probably most of all.
When I'm sitting still, and it doesn't matter how noisy or distracting the environment is, and my mind is just free. Not free of thoughts, but in them. Any thought at all, good or evil if you cared to distinguish them. It's like my mind is made of Teflon and nothing can stick to it, it just flows on through. It enjoys every thought without analysis, and lets them go completely and automatically. I really can't say I know how to do that, only that it happens.

Damn. And that's a lot more than I would have ever thought to look for when I was doing my seeking thing. It makes everything I was wrong about and everything I hated worth it.

But I think it's a natural part of a natural order, that illusions peel away in layers and on levels. That different bodies makes a difference. That certain products are good for you. The policeman is your friend and the bank regards you as a customer. It gets deeper. Are you in your socks or are your socks on you? What about your body and even your mind? Is there a 'me'? because sometimes there's not.

It's like the friction of existing within what isn't true eventually burns up the dross.
Maybe empty of falseness. I can relate a bit to that.

The empty concept is more like 'clean'. Think of a table that is cluttered with an accumulation of 'stuff' placed upon it. In fact so much stuff that there is stuff on top of stuff. Now, remove everything from that table. What wants to be on that table and what do you want on that table? In that emptiness, does anything suggest itself to be on the table? What purpose does it serve? What feelings arise from that 'object. Do you want it there? Why do you want it there?

The 'emptiness is really quite pregnant with possibilities. It is only in that stillness that you can choose what it is you want in your space, that table.

The emptiness is like pouring out a glass of whatever has accumulated in it and then filling it afresh with what will be needed and/or pleasing. You are really on track when what is needed is also that which pleases, and satisfies.

Tables or glasses. Just metaphors to hopefully make sense of what may sound silly or superfluous.

[Jenci]

I’d like to ask if anybody has experiences they might like to share of how emptying themselves in some way has led to an inflow of greater abundance, spiritually or in any other way?

Hi TH

This is a great discussion, thank you.

In awakening we do move to the point of being empty of our attachments but this should not be mis-understood into meaning that we avoid them or bypass them.
It's one thing to realise at an intellectual level that the attachments are an illusion but another thing to realise at the deepest level of being.

To give an example here of my experience, I was always an obsessive materialistic person. After awakening, realising that it was crazy to have so much stuff, I got rid of a lot of things but nearly a year into the awakening I was strongly compelled to start buying again.

For a couple of months, I went on a spending spree for lots of things both for me and my home. It was very intense and also so uncomfortable at times I felt physically sick at what I was doing...... but something was also very aware to allow everything to happen as it was.

I went through this whole experience very aware of my mind was doing. I got to observe it in the most subtle ways and I got to see attachments, ideas, fears and beliefs that I had that I never realised - I got to see them play out like in slow motion in the tiniest of details.

Suddenly one day it all stopped and I was just empty of all these attachments. It was no longer a question of understanding that material possession was not the way to fulfilment - I really got to experience this at the very deepest level.

This kind of process has happened many times to me since awakening. One by one, the awakening takes me right back to the illusion and spins me round into it very intensely, until it goes.

Our true nature is unconditional love.
Unconditional moves towards, not away.
The unconditional moves towards everything which is not awake and in that movement, illusion gets to dissolve.
It is not necessary a pleasant experience but when what it is doing is seen for what it is, then there is just allowing everything to be as it is.

I think this is an excellent video which describes what I am talking about - how our compulsions are an energetic part of our awakening and should be allowed to play out as needed.
Jeanette


How does Awareness affect compulsive thoughts and behaviours.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coi5CTk1lVA

Jeanette

[minkton]

Hmm.. how can we 'free ourselves of all wants' and still be here living and pulsing? We want to love and laugh, dont we? We want to be close to other humans and we want to care for our loved ones...

isnt it freeing ourselves from grasping that is the issue, from clinging and identifying with what we do and 'have' so that we believe that is what we are.

[markpierre]

I don't know, the idea of 'emptiness' is tough for me to grasp. I don't believe that anyone ever empties themselves really, but only because I've never seen anything like that is often described.
The only emptiness I've ever experienced was a sense of loss and loss of my own identity entirely, and it lasted for a really long time. It's the single most terrible and devastating thing I can imagine a person can experience to be honest. I don't know. It still happens occasionally. Contrast that with the sublime experiences, and I'd pick sublime, but that's anything but empty. And those experiences come seemingly randomly too.

But I'll compare it to an experience I have most often that I enjoy probably most of all.
When I'm sitting still, and it doesn't matter how noisy or distracting the environment is, and my mind is just free. Not free of thoughts, but in them. Any thought at all, good or evil if you cared to distinguish them. It's like my mind is made of Teflon and nothing can stick to it, it just flows on through. It enjoys every thought without analysis, and lets them go completely and automatically. I really can't say I know how to do that, only that it happens.

Damn. And that's a lot more than I would have ever thought to look for when I was doing my seeking thing. It makes everything I was wrong about and everything I hated worth it.

But I think it's a natural part of a natural order, that illusions peel away in layers and on levels. That different bodies makes a difference. That certain products are good for you. The policeman is your friend and the bank regards you as a customer. It gets deeper. Are you in your socks or are your socks on you? What about your body and even your mind? Is there a 'me'? because sometimes there's not.

It's like the friction of existing within what isn't true eventually burns up the dross.
Maybe empty of falseness. I can relate a bit to that.

The empty concept is more like 'clean'. Think of a table that is cluttered with an accumulation of 'stuff' placed upon it. In fact so much stuff that there is stuff on top of stuff. Now, remove everything from that table. What wants to be on that table and what do you want on that table? In that emptiness, does anything suggest itself to be on the table? What purpose does it serve? What feelings arise from that 'object. Do you want it there? Why do you want it there?

The 'emptiness is really quite pregnant with possibilities. It is only in that stillness that you can choose what it is you want in your space, that table.

The emptiness is like pouring out a glass of whatever has accumulated in it and then filling it afresh with what will be needed and/or pleasing. You are really on track when what is needed is also that which pleases, and satisfies.

Tables or glasses. Just metaphors to hopefully make sense of what may sound silly or superfluous.

Yes modwiz, thank you. You're a good one!

Clean. In fact it can sometimes be accompanied by the sensation that there's cool water circulating around the back part of my brain. I mean literally!

I wouldn't know whether to call the guru or the plumber.

[markpierre]

Hmm.. how can we 'free ourselves of all wants' and still be here living and pulsing? We want to love and laugh, dont we? We want to be close to other humans and we want to care for our loved ones...

isnt it freeing ourselves from grasping that is the issue, from clinging and identifying with what we do and 'have' so that we believe that is what we are.

Hi minkton. I'm not so sure that you can. I think mind just functions in a simple and singular way. It always without exception, does what it believes is in it's own best interest. So in an organic way, it sorts itself by using up the mistakes it makes. Mistakes only in the sense that the effects are eventually experienced as undesirable. If you desire and seek joy, you'll eventually find it because you'll use up all the errant attempts to find it. It's the real definition of the term 'sin'. Hard to say when they're all used up, I haven't emptied the barrel yet.

But if you want only THAT, and can filter the errors consciously, you can speed the process up exponentially. But I really do have to want THAT over how I want the things around me to appear.

Long ago when I sat for several years with an illuminated Master, he would say to paraphrase 'go out and use up your humanness'. "Go and sin some more!" was a tongue in cheek phrase he used. I didn't necessarily understand him, but I took his advice.

And then as you also accumulate true experiences, they alter and adjust the path you follow. I can't rest on experiences I've had, but I can anticipate the quality or the purpose of the next. They're not like accomplishments or achievements, more like doggie treats tossed onto the path, to keep you oriented.

I hope that makes a little sense, it feels right to me.

[Kimberley]

Hmm.. how can we 'free ourselves of all wants' and still be here living and pulsing? We want to love and laugh, dont we? We want to be close to other humans and we want to care for our loved ones...

isnt it freeing ourselves from grasping that is the issue, from clinging and identifying with what we do and 'have' so that we believe that is what we are.

Fun post Trainee and All!

I could go on quite a while with this ... however I only have a few minutes... so in short....


We want to love and laugh, dont we ?

If you are "wanting" of anything you are creating a lack of having it just by "wanting".

We can chose love and laughter in each moment... as creators of or reality we have the power of choice in every moment. At this very moment I personally am full of love and laughter!

Life is a journey not a destination.

“We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us.” < Joseph Campbell

"If there is anything that you feel so attached to and identify with so strongly that the absence of it would make you totally lost, bewildered, in fear and agony - imagine that it isn't there and discover who you are outside of it! It could be people we look up to, career, the amount of money in our bank account, possessions, organizations, institutions, labels, friends, movements, belief systems, identities that we see as ourselves - but that came from something external ~ Let it go and strengthen the foundation of Who You Really Are - cuz no-one can take that away, the rest may compliment us, but it shouldn't replace us." < Laura Magdalene Eisenhower

A few tidbits to add to this fun thread!!

Much love :luv:

[minkton]

If you are "wanting" of anything you are creating a lack of having it just by "wanting".

We can chose love and laughter in each moment... as creators of or reality we have the power of choice in every moment. At this very moment I personally am full of love and laughter!





Hi Kimberley, thanks for your reply, it clarified something for me.. we are free to choose... what we want. If we didnt want it we wouldnt choose it!

So the 'wanting' that we dont 'want' in this thread ( pun intended) looks like it is 'grasping' and 'identifying with'.. the limitation therefore, as I see it , is in the ego attachment and power base usage of wanting, rather than what you are describing, which is a fluid responsiveness to the moment.

It is more how we want that is the issue.. rather than trying to give up wanting itself.

[minkton]

If you desire and seek joy, you'll eventually find it because you'll use up all the errant attempts to find it. It's the real definition of the term 'sin'. Hard to say when they're all used up, I haven't emptied the barrel yet.


FASCINATED by that definition of the concept of sin. Is it the essential mistake of believing that joy lies outside yourself somewhere that is the sin?

[TraineeHuman]

Thank you all for your sharings. They have given me some new glimpses in the mirror.

I guess I have been happy to wear the idea of “nothingness” kind of like a suit – or should that be “underwear”? -- for about four decades now. (Must be getting kind of smelly by now, you might hint.)

Now, thanks to the comments, I appreciate that this concept loses much of its usefulness with anyone who hasn’t partly mastered the art of “emptying themselves of junk to make their consciousness fuller”, through meditation or psychotherapy or some equivalent.

I guess one reason why I like “nothingness” is that it fits in with what one experiences in nirvana. Nirvana is the thirteenth, or maybe the twelfth, dimension. In nirvana I have found myself experiencing mainly two things. On the one hand, there is no distinction between “inner” and “outer”, nor between “subject” and “object”. No such animals there. The second thing has been that it becomes kind of painfully clear that the word is never the thing. There is a crazy randomness, where everything is so elusive you not only can’t grasp at or want anything but you just have to surrender to the insanity and go with you don’t ever know what you don’t ever know where, not for one second (as if seconds mean anything there, either).

In ancient India and China, there were few and no attempts (respectively) to build a philosophical or conceptual “system” or conceptual framework that supposedly explained everything – about life, the universe, spirituality, and so on. I’m sure the reason for this was that too many individuals had experienced nirvana, where it’s very obvious straight away that any such system will be hopelessly incomplete and flawed. On the other hand, Western philosophers were obsessed with their own “quest for the grail” to produce such a system, from the seventeenth to the late nineteenth century. Finally, Hegel came up with a system that overcame all the known flaws in all the systems that had come before. The trouble was, examination of Hegel’s system unearthed even deeper flaws in all the systems that had come before, but also in Hegel’s system itself. At that point it became obvious to all professional philosophers that no such system, or even one that came close, was possible.

I’d have to give you a philosophy lecture course that would run for at least a year to explain, or begin to explain, why. But one reason I like “nothingness” is that it has the idea of a kind of bottomlessness built into it. (Now I’m regretting making a reference to my underwear earlier.)

[bearcow]

the quintessence
atman
shen
akasha
these are other traditions words that all mean the same thing as emptiness



In ancient India and China, there were few and no attempts (respectively) to build a philosophical or conceptual “system” or conceptual framework that supposedly explained everything – about life, the universe, spirituality, and so on

the framework created by these two cultures to explain the nature of life is far more complicated and sophisticated than anything spoken about openly in the western traditions

paradoxically, emptiness has substance, but it is static in space/time, so it has no dualistic aspect.

[markpierre]

If you desire and seek joy, you'll eventually find it because you'll use up all the errant attempts to find it. It's the real definition of the term 'sin'. Hard to say when they're all used up, I haven't emptied the barrel yet.


FASCINATED by that definition of the concept of sin. Is it the essential mistake of believing that joy lies outside yourself somewhere that is the sin?

I love explaining this. The Greek word Hamartia and the Hebrew word Chet translate to 'to miss the mark, or 'to miss the target'. In fact both archery terms. Chet can also be used to describe 'indebtedness' in different contexts. There are several other Hebrew terms with different meanings used in different contexts that have been generically translated as 'sin' as well.
The modern Christian definition of the word' has little or nothing to do with the term as it was meant by whomever wrote it, in whatever context.

Repentance literally means to think differently. A change of mind. Regretting an error with an intention of correcting it. That's not such a big deal. It shouldn't need to include bribes and payoffs.

So that being clarified, what does an archer do if he commits a sin? What would be the best advice? Oops ya missed mate, take another shot.

Sort of brings the whole concept back into the realm of reasonability, doesn't it?

Ya, it means you looked for love where it wasn't.

Cheers. Glad you enjoyed it. You're off the hook mate, just grab another arrow.

[Jenci]

is [/B] 'grasping' and 'identifying with'.. the limitation therefore, as I see it , is in the ego attachment and power base usage of wanting, rather than what you are describing, which is a fluid responsiveness to the moment.

It is more how we want that is the issue.. rather than trying to give up wanting itself.

Yes, Minkton, the 'wanting that we don't want' is the same grasping of the ego as the 'wanting'.

In both cases, there is a person who is doing something, to achieve a different state - either the one of getting what they want or getting what they don't want.

Just seeing how the ego does this is enough for the grasping to release and in that moment of relaxing, that's where the nothingness is.
Jeanette

[Jenci]

But one reason I like “nothingness” is that it has the idea of a kind of bottomlessness built into it.

I like the term nothingness as well.

As a baby we are born into this world with no thing (nothing) and we will die from this body with no thing (nothing).

It's the things we accumulate along the way which cause our suffering.

The baby is born in the pure state of Being, with only the physical need for comfort
As adults we can stare in awe at a very young baby just Being - doing nothing, wanting nothing, not needing to get anywhere - just perfectly content.

But we are all That - no thing.
It's just a case of remembering.
Jeanette

[mosquito]

....... I’d like to explain something about the ancient Eastern spiritual discourse that not everybody may know. I’d like to talk about how the fundamental and first concept in all Eastern spirituality was “nothingness”. Not “God”. Not “energy”. Not “consciousness”. Not “non-duality” or “duality”. By the way, Eastern philosophy and psychology were always far more practical than their Western counterparts.

Many have pointed out that “nothingness” is not a very good translation into English. Something like “everythingness” would be much more accurate.......

Thye actual term Daoists use is 无极, pronounced Wu Ji, which means no limit, no extent. Wu Ji comes before Tai Ji, 太极, which roughly means supreme ultimate, great polarity, extreme pole/limit. Tai Ji is the name of the well known symbol which many Westerners know as the Yin Yang symbol, as well as being the name of the famous martial art. So, as the OP rightly asserts, Tai Ji, symbolising polarity and duality, is preceded by Wu Ji, which is the limitless field of infinite polssibility wherein lie all the mysteries of life !

Good thread !

[BestLion]

Our true nature is unconditional love.
Unconditional moves towards, not away.
The unconditional moves towards everything which is not awake and in that movement, illusion gets to dissolve.
It is not necessary a pleasant experience but when what it is doing is seen for what it is, then there is just allowing everything to be as it is.
I dont think thier is such a thing as unconditional love. Even in mythology the gods dont love unconditionally..Think Jehovah-Jesus. If you dont do his laws your outcasted..that is not unconditional love. Think a husband and wife..whom claim unconditional love..this would have no conditions..yet if one is betrayed they loose this love..thus it is not eternal.

[Jenci]

Our true nature is unconditional love.
Unconditional moves towards, not away.
The unconditional moves towards everything which is not awake and in that movement, illusion gets to dissolve.
It is not necessary a pleasant experience but when what it is doing is seen for what it is, then there is just allowing everything to be as it is.
I dont think thier is such a thing as unconditional love. Even in mythology the gods dont love unconditionally..Think Jehovah-Jesus. If you dont do his laws your outcasted..that is not unconditional love. Think a husband and wife..whom claim unconditional love..this would have no conditions..yet if one is betrayed they loose this love..thus it is not eternal.

Hi BestLion,

I can only relate it from my direct experience and how this movement of love happens in my life.

Words are very limited and can never describe what I am talking about but unconditional love is a good term for me to use here.

It moves towards all of "me" - it has no preference. It allows all my pain, sadness, grasping, fear, needs, wants and desires to be exactly as they are and it is in this allowing that they are eventually dissolved.

I liken it to the unconditional love of a mother to a child who wraps her arms around the child who is screaming and loves then just the same as if they were laughing.
Jeanette

[Kimberley]

Our true nature is unconditional love.
Unconditional moves towards, not away.
The unconditional moves towards everything which is not awake and in that movement, illusion gets to dissolve.
It is not necessary a pleasant experience but when what it is doing is seen for what it is, then there is just allowing everything to be as it is.
I dont think thier is such a thing as unconditional love. Even in mythology the gods dont love unconditionally..Think Jehovah-Jesus. If you dont do his laws your outcasted..that is not unconditional love. Think a husband and wife..whom claim unconditional love..this would have no conditions..yet if one is betrayed they loose this love..thus it is not eternal.

Bestlion,

You wrote
I dont think thier is such a thing as unconditional love.

I respect the view that you have.

However I want to tell you that I for one, and I know there are many others that will attest the same, Have learned how to live in unconditional love.

All emotions are a choice. We each have the choice in each moment to feel whatever emotion we choose to have. Part of the game on planet earth is to learn this or not learn this. We are all creators of our reality/emotions.

I value your view that there is no such thing as unconditional love in your reality/life and I know you are not alone in that view. However I am here to tell you that the are millions of people on this planet that unconditional love is in their reality/life. and I am one of them. And I chose it. Neither is right or wrong. It is called free will.

Much love to us all!! :luv:

[Anchor]

To even get close to understanding unconditional love, and deciding if it exists or not, it may be helpful to first consider conditional love.

What are the conditions? What conditions? What is this love that can be unconditional anyway? Is conditional love even possible, or is a conditioned love something other than love? Maybe love can only really be unconditional?

Can we solve this paradox from within a reality where every state in each time quanta proceeds to the next as a complex set of conditions - aka the physics of our reality?

Is the reality the sum of all there is?

If not then perhaps unconditional love lies outside what we know of as reality - the place where our souls are ?

Food for thought :)

Or ignore, as is always the option - LOL

(Pardon my outburst of rhetorical questions)

[grapevine]

Once you realice this world is an illusion, you're able to stop wanting, and if you stop wanting, you're free, your source of suffering is gone.#

I do realise Camilo, I realise with all my heart but somehow, living from day to day, I just get reeled in like everyone else ................ all we all want is a better world, a better life for everyone, not just ourselves. It's hard to accept the illusion of poverty and famine, especially believing in the law of attraction as well ..............

[Deborah (ahamkara)]

(If you are in a state of wanting, you cannot be in a state of allowing). Most of those seriously following Eastern traditions such as Zen spend many years in meditation- watching, understanding and training the mind, in order to transcend it's illusions. I doubt it is possible to use words to understand those enlightened states. Not that words are useless, but too many traps exist using the ego mind to understand ego! Peace.

[TraineeHuman]

Is there such a thing as conditional love? I'll love you and consider everything you do to be wonderful, provided you live up to the following list of my requirements regarding how you will behave?

It seems to me that genuine love is unconditional, and that there is a certain amount of that there almost any time one person claims to love another. But, paradoxically, it's usually mixed in with some, or a lot of, conditional "love", which is attachment of some sort.

We sense that whatever is unconditional is what is valuable, and that the rest is some kind of illusion, even though we may be trapped in that illusion. Inwardly we yearn to let go of whatever traps we are in. Somehow we know that only that which is unconditional is important, and particularly the unconditional love. Somehow we know that after our death, if not sooner, we'll clearly see that the (unconditional) love was the only thing that mattered in our dealings with all people, whoever they were. I guess "nothingness" means roughly the same as the unconditional.

[minkton]

[QUOTE=minkton;388819
E]

Yes, Minkton, the 'wanting that we don't want' is the same grasping of the ego as the 'wanting'.

In both cases, there is a person who is doing something, to achieve a different state - either the one of getting what they want or getting what they don't want.

Just seeing how the ego does this is enough for the grasping to release and in that moment of relaxing, that's where the nothingness is.
Jeanette
HA! so nothingness is wanted.

[Jenci]

If not then perhaps unconditional love lies outside what we know of as reality - the place where our souls are ?



That's it :)
jeanette

[Jenci]

Yes, Minkton, the 'wanting that we don't want' is the same grasping of the ego as the 'wanting'.

In both cases, there is a person who is doing something, to achieve a different state - either the one of getting what they want or getting what they don't want.

Just seeing how the ego does this is enough for the grasping to release and in that moment of relaxing, that's where the nothingness is.
Jeanette
HA! so nothingness is wanted.

Hi Minkton,

It is true this is very difficult to describe in words. :)

We could say there is a spiritual seeking or wanting - something is driving us back to the nothingness, which is our true nature. This impulse can be very powerful and is best not resisted.

But if you experience nothingness, there is no wanting. Nothingness just Is.

If the grasping and wanting are seen as the illusion, they are seen from the Real. There is nowhere to go, nothing to do or want in that moment. In that moment of relaxing of all grasping, nothingness is present to be experienced.

This is realisation of our true nature and the more this is experienced, the more it becomes a natural place for us to rest - as the nothingness.
Eventually the nothingness is realised as being present at all times. It was always there, it just couldn't be seen before.

When this is realised and experienced even the spiritual seeking or the wanting of the nothingness, ceases.
Jeanette

[jorr lundstrom]

Dwelling as nothingness is worth everything, once realized.

Speaking about it isnt more worth that wot my cat drops on the carpet.

But all those so called spiritual threads shows that many prefer to

speak about it without knowing wot they speak about.

Its no new phenomena, its been like this for thousands of years.

[markpierre]

To even get close to understanding unconditional love, and deciding if it exists or not, it may be helpful to first consider conditional love.

What are the conditions? What conditions? What is this love that can be unconditional anyway? Is conditional love even possible, or is a conditioned love something other than love? Maybe love can only really be unconditional?

Can we solve this paradox from within a reality where every state in each time quanta proceeds to the next as a complex set of conditions - aka the physics of our reality?

Is the reality the sum of all there is?

If not then perhaps unconditional love lies outside what we know of as reality - the place where our souls are ?

Food for thought :)

Or ignore, as is always the option - LOL

(Pardon my outburst of rhetorical questions)

Hey mate. Good one.

Unconditional love is not an emotion. It's no more emotive than how we regard our bedside tables.

It's remarkable how real love and compassion are so dispassionate. Hurt or expectation are impossible because there is no association with feelings.

It just is. Everything is just as it is. Acceptance. You just do what's required.

Conditional love is just fear.

And Eros hey, is just a bit of fun.

[Anchor]

Conditional love is just fear.

Excellent.

[soleil]

If you desire and seek joy, you'll eventually find it because you'll use up all the errant attempts to find it. It's the real definition of the term 'sin'. Hard to say when they're all used up, I haven't emptied the barrel yet.


FASCINATED by that definition of the concept of sin. Is it the essential mistake of believing that joy lies outside yourself somewhere that is the sin?

the definiton of 'sin' that i know is that of "missing the point" (missing the mark). definition pre bible i believe...
(now im going back to reading and catching up on this thread now...) :)

[AwakeInADream]

I guess to free yourself of illusions, you have to become aware of all the illusions that exist, and think nothing of them. An illusion that your not aware of is an illusion that you're stuck in. Gee, but what if that underlying truth is an illusion too?(I may be some time getting out of that one). Does 'bottomless' imply that there is no ultimate truth?

[TraineeHuman]

I guess to free yourself of illusions, you have to become aware of all the illusions that exist, and think nothing of them. An illusion that your not aware of is an illusion that you're stuck in. Gee, but what if that underlying truth is an illusion too?(I may be some time getting out of that one). Does 'bottomless' imply that there is no ultimate truth?

Whatever Source does or is is truth.

The rest is relative, but how relative depends on to what extent it coheres with Source.

[Youniverse]

God is here, there, and in the space in between. In that sense, Eastern traditions are no more correct than Western ones. The whole thing about Buddhists not believing in God sounds odd to me. It actually seems more like semantics than anything from what I gather. Especially when you consider the countless powerful, mystical experiences Buddhist monks have had for centuries, providing them with an all absorbing experience of their divine essence. If that isn't God what is??? So many hangups over these cumbersome words. I probably got that all wrong anyways but that's my two cents.

Would not freeing oneself of illusions involve a lot of disconnecting from ones ego so that you reach a point where you lose opinions, beliefs, prejudices about something and just see the isness of it? Sri Bhagavan says the practice of simply observing what is(usually for a lengthy chunk of time I imagine) eventually leads you to a state where transformation is possible. Transforming to what? To God awareness apparently. Sri Bhagavan says awakening is only the 'open door,' learning the spiritual practice (that works for you - I added this part myself) is the way to transformation. So if meditating on emptiness or everythingness and the implications of that is what works for you, then go to it! No one has cornered the market on enlightenment.

[TraineeHuman]

Would not freeing oneself of illusions involve a lot of disconnecting from ones ego so that you reach a point where you lose opinions, beliefs, prejudices about something and just see the isness of it?
Hi, Youniverse. Yes indeed, that's right. Then once one truly is in touch with that "isness", it's a matter of going back into ordinary life with it still strongly there in your awareness.


So if meditating on emptiness or everythingness and the implications of that is what works for you, then go to it!

No, you seem to me to be losing the point here. In Eastern traditions one doesn’t meditate “on” anything at all. At least, not once one has advanced beyond a beginner stage, and often not even as a beginner in those traditions that are the most respected by, say, the professional scholars of comparative religion – such as Zen or Advaita Vedanta.

[greybeard]

Adyashanti says that the illusion is that there is a me, there never was and never will be.
Ps It would seem that we live in a virtual reality.
Scientific discussion on this by Bruce Lipton and Tom Campbell here

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=682099&viewfull=1#post682099
Chris

[Deemah]

"What does it mean for you to free yourself of illusions?"

Is a very interesting question indeed! I feel all depends on how far you take it.

From basic human life going all the way up to the Oversoul, everything in between and above that is still some form of Illusion.
In a way you can never be "out of" Illusion unless you are able to merge again with the "Source" that some call the "Prime Creator".
It is a continuous layer of curtains, portals that lead to another reality, to another, another & another, higher in density or lower in density these are just slices in the big cake of Illusion, and the cake itself is the Universe.

I feel good analogy to the "Prime Conscious" that experiences itself within illusion is - a person in a dark room with projector , they keep drawing infinite amount of pictures and projecting them onto the wall to see what they can come up with, for eternity.

Something along those lines!

L&L

[johnf]

Empty yourself is a suggestion of a process that seems designed to bring one through ones own false desires, misconceptions etc, and instead of nothingness this process seems to bring up a clearer presence.
anyone who has done this process and is still here to talk about it still has a body, and all the real world things that tend to put the story back in place.
I believe that the clearest of these individuals has a thin envelope of self, illusion or what have you that is needed for us to find them and relate to thier experience.
And most importantly things will still arise within them and if not seen through and release will result in various un-inspected behaviors that can blossom into all the abuses that we have seen around spiritual groups and teachers that have led so many to steer clear of them entirely.
The wise inquirer though looks to what caused the original clarity that attracted so many, and apply that to oneself.

jf

[MargueriteBee]

What is the illusion, the thing or the thought about the thing?

[greybeard]

What is the illusion, the thing or the thought about the thing?

The thought about is the illusion.
The thought constructs our world be it good bad or indifferent.

[greybeard]

To be free from belief in the thought of me and all that baggage is to be truly free from illusion.
Eckhart Tolle quote "No self, no problem"
By self he meant the me---not the big Self.

[TraineeHuman]

Historically, the question of what is the appearance and what is the reality has been the dominant question throughout all of Indian philosophy, it was what all of ancient Indian philosophy was about. With time it was eventually settled, primarily as a result of the ideas – or I should say, the realizations -- of some of the major Indian gurus such as Aurobindo.

According to some scholars, the answer eventually come up with goes something like this. If you are interacting with something, then neither you nor the object are real, but what is real is the interacting. The rest is illusion.

Well, you asked.

The same question completely dominated Western metaphysics, and was also big in Western philosophy generally, in the nineteenth century. But I won’t confuse you with trying to explain how it got answered there.

[greybeard]

Historically, the question of what is the appearance and what is the reality has been the dominant question throughout all of Indian philosophy, it was what all of ancient Indian philosophy was about. With time it was eventually settled, primarily as a result of the ideas – or I should say, the realizations -- of some of the major Indian gurus such as Aurobindo.

According to some scholars, the answer eventually come up with goes something like this. If you are interacting with something, then neither you nor the object are real, but what is real is the interacting. The rest is illusion.

Well, you asked.

The same question completely dominated Western metaphysics, and was also big in Western philosophy generally, in the nineteenth century. But I won’t confuse you with trying to explain how it got answered there.

Yes that's my understanding.

The Bagahvad Gita often quoted says

"Events happen
Deeds are done
There is no doer there of."


Put simply, what you are witnesses and is awareness of the happening.
You are the only "thing" that is unchanging, eternal. Everything else comes and goes.
You would be fully aware in the absence of all else.
Words dont quite get it.
c

[Gardener]

Thank you TH and all for this thread which touches on a very fundamental aspect of our beingness as humans. I have to admit to a great deal of cognitive dissonance with the words and language which we as a species encounter when trying to describe that state which we as individuals experience. I have noticed for instance that some words conjure up an image (an illusion) which is a memory of past experience and may or may not have any relevence to meaning, at least a meaning which can usefully help to clear the clutter.

I guess it all depends on the words which were used initially in ones environment, for instance someone brought up in christian family uses totally different 'words' to one from a buddhist background. I have pondered this for a long time, how can the gap be bridged without adding another layer to the tower of babel.

I think what I am trying to say is the stumbling blocks that prevent us from clearing the clutter are the words used to describe what it is we are talking about, like you all, I guess I have the gist of what is being said and am not in any way saying any of the words used here are not right or even could be better it just is what it is.

Connecting with this core beingness which is unaffected by effect upon it, is well a work in progress for us and yes it is work, sigh. From our individual perspectives it has a miriad of approaches, all good. Sharing those individual journeys helps everyone to walk through the 'forest perrilous', and rescue the princess in the tower.

[markpierre]

Well you can view it from several positions, so it's hard to know what you're freeing yourself from.
partly because you're viewing it, and you don't know how not to. Viewing's not the issue,
what you think you're viewing is.
You can say that it's real, but my interpretation of it is false. That sounds okay.
You can say the world is made up of light energy and concepts. That would be accurate.
Or that it's purely a dream. Or if you're inclined or in more of a hurry, a nightmare.

But the action that changes that no matter what idea you like, is a disassociation from it.
No matter what mode or method you choose to learn to do that, that's what it will be doing.
If it's nice and loving and benign, or bashes you up. If you think you're doing it, or that it's being done to you, doesn't matter.
I know when I'm free of an illusion when it's been torn away from me. That's my method.
Ha, that's funny. I don't even miss it. Useless ideas eventually reveal themselves to be useless.
Another method I use is boredom. This is a stupid condition to be in. Or irony. You don't need to become a sage.

We live in a lot of levels of misunderstandings, so most of what we understand has nothing whatever to do with reality.
That makes it easy to remember. It's not some of what we think is illusion, it's everything we think.

[Deemah]

What is the illusion, the thing or the thought about the thing?

I feel both are an illusion because thought manifests the thing.
Without the thought nothing exists, so in a way it's an illusion that births illusion.

If the "cup of water" is an illusion for example then it makes no difference if its Ice or liquid~

L&L

[animovado]

Hi everyone, hi TH and
thank you for the question.

What are illusions, what is reality?

Every thought and every form has to tell it's story.
If i'm quiet and listening, if i'm looking without judgement,
everything gets light or disappears.
Even the so called dense material world
can loose it's burden,
and appears as the dream,
i always wanted to live in
as a child
of love

[TraineeHuman]

Delightfully put, animovado.

Yes, if you truly don't mind the "damage" the illusory might do to you, if you can totally keep your cool no matter what, then, ironically, you'll see what's reality.

As you say, everything gets light then, everything becomes innocent, because it can't harm you then. The illusions all turn into paper tigers then -- all the fear, of things which never happen, or else the fear gets proved to have been unnecessary if they do happen. The illusory will do its worst and then give up, and whatever's left will be the reality.

Ironically, we only discover (the true) reality from having the attitude that we can take it or leave it, and we'll settle for whatever comes onto our plate.

[animovado]

I think i understand your points, TH, except the irony you mentioned twice.

The phrase "...having the attitude that we can take it or leave it,..." doesn't
fit in the experience i had.

But, to be honest, there wasn't enough time for the illusory to challenge me with it's worst,
because i have been taken in by some foolish illusions much earlier.

So, what does it mean to me to free myself of illusions?
To smile a little more about the comedy of my life!

[Youniverse]

Would not freeing oneself of illusions involve a lot of disconnecting from ones ego so that you reach a point where you lose opinions, beliefs, prejudices about something and just see the isness of it?
Hi, Youniverse. Yes indeed, that's right. Then once one truly is in touch with that "isness", it's a matter of going back into ordinary life with it still strongly there in your awareness.


So if meditating on emptiness or everythingness and the implications of that is what works for you, then go to it!

No, you seem to me to be losing the point here. In Eastern traditions one doesn’t meditate “on” anything at all. At least, not once one has advanced beyond a beginner stage, and often not even as a beginner in those traditions that are the most respected by, say, the professional scholars of comparative religion – such as Zen or Advaita Vedanta.

Hi! Good point! I don't know why I wrote it that way because, in fact, I never meditate 'on anything.' I focus on the stillness or space and avoid thinking as much as possible. Sometimes I focus on the one doing the focussing, lol! I understand and practice meditation as a method for moving beyond thought and into consciousness. So yes, we're on the same page afterall!

[Youniverse]

One of the many ways you can free yourself of illusions is to recognize as often as you can that you are not your ego. This has been said in other ways by people on this thread. You have an ego. You are not that. You are the one that HAS the ego and notices it. So in this way, to be free of illusion is to stop identifying with ones ego and feeling guilty because of it. There is no need to feel guilty for having a disease. Ego is a mental disorder, an insanity if you will. One in which we all share collectively and this realization also helps build compassion for each other!

[lookbeyond]

When i am interacting consciously putting my ego aside, i find i have little to say in a social situation, eg family get together, do others find this?lb

[TraineeHuman]

One of the many ways you can free yourself of illusions is to recognize as often as you can that you are not your ego. This has been said in other ways by people on this thread. You have an ego. You are not that. You are the one that HAS the ego and notices it. So in this way, to be free of illusion is to stop identifying with ones ego and feeling guilty because of it. There is no need to feel guilty for having a disease. Ego is a mental disorder, an insanity if you will. One in which we all share collectively and this realization also helps build compassion for each other!

In reply to your post and to the one by lookbeyond below it, I would say that the ego in itself isn't somehow "diseased", but greatly overrated as far as the amount of influence on ourselves we allow it to have. Actually, Youniverse, I am partly my ego. Rather, it's a necessary part of me, but it's a part I need to ignore quite frequently. It's the Sorcerer's Apprentice, and the Sorcerer -- the Higher Mind -- just needs to come back from vacation.

At such things as family gatherings, where egos may be running wild, I consider it's appropriate to tame the egos. That doesn't mean with a whip, but gently and in a friendly way, yet firmly. Do that, and you'll make a positive influence on your rels for the better. Unfortunately, some think of their ego as being "evil", which would tend to alienate them from it. Your ego shouldn't be shot or put in prison, at all. It does need to be gently and compassionately put in its place.

[AwakeInADream]

When i am interacting consciously putting my ego aside, i find i have little to say in a social situation, eg family get together, do others find this?lb

Yes and No.:) I do find that putting my ego to one side put's less pressure on me to make 'small talk' with people and I can be comfortably silent, but inversely this lack of pressure also gives me more confidence to talk about the more profound things that really matter in life without worrying too much about how others may react (actually I'm mostly pleasantly surprised by the openness of people when given the chance).

[markpierre]

Never mind the ego. It's gonna do what it's gonna do no matter what you tell it. The ego's job is judgement,
and that's what you're trying to overcome. Sifting your acceptable thoughts through a strainer and feeling
like you've done something is a good example of judgement.

The ego is having a conversation with someone about relinquishing the ego,
because only the ego gives a crap. It's a little weird, but that's what's happening.
But a good way for it to charm your cooperation in it's scheme, is to convince you that it's gone.
If it's gone, then you're gone. Well obviously it's not really gone then.

How to free yourself from illusions? Find yourself a comfortable arm chair with no possibility of distractions.
Then prepare to be disillusioned.

[animovado]

Why overcome the purpose of a good tool?

A hammer is a good tool,
but trying to nail down everything with it,
in all aspects of life,
leaves a pile of fragments behind.

[TraineeHuman]

Never mind the ego. It's gonna do what it's gonna do no matter what you tell it. The ego's job is judgement,
and that's what you're trying to overcome. Sifting your acceptable thoughts through a strainer and feeling
like you've done something is a good example of judgement.

The ego is having a conversation with someone about relinquishing the ego,
because only the ego gives a crap. It's a little weird, but that's what's happening.

But a good way for it to charm your cooperation in it's scheme, is to convince you that it's gone.
If it's gone, then you're gone. Well obviously it's not really gone then.

How to free yourself from illusions? Find yourself a comfortable arm chair with no possibility of distractions.
Then prepare to be disillusioned.

Yes, of course, anyone who is truly free of illusions doesn't need any freeing, while anyone who is trapped by/in some illusions by definition isn't truly aware that these are illusions.

I'd like to point to some action, though, instead of discussion, to cut this Gordian knot. In particular, I'd like top point you to posts #1233 and #1234 here: http://www.projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?&52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in&p=739442&viewfull=1#post739442


What action? Simply keep on looking at what's honest in you and discarding whatever's dishonest.

If you keep doing that deliberately and intensively, you'll uncover more and more delusions and illusions.

And if you really do it fully enough and for long enough, then ...


(By the way, the ego is certainly not --as I take it markpierre claims, unless he was joking -- the only "consciousness" of yours that cares about what is and isn't illusion. But that's beside the point.)