Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

[S-L]

I hope to use this post as a means of canvassing the forum on this topic as it's been bothering me of late.

Is there any point to gathering information and trying to "figure it out" on an intellectual level? How far can one take this? Perhaps one might only select information that "resonates" with you in hopes of forming a clearer picture. I heartily agree, but I've been burned by this in the past. Chalk it up to lack of experience, outside manipulation, or something else, but I wonder if this is really the only/best way.

If we define a state of enlightenment as bridging the gap between mind and spirit, and allowing spirit to express itself through you - then you'd be tapping directly into Source. The veil of deception... would not be troublesome for you. Confusion would melt away into pure Knowingness.

To wit: what is the most effective way to spend one's time? Piecing it out through websites like this one (which I love, for the record :)), or focusing on one of the many spiritual practices/paths that lead to enlightenment? A bit of both? How can you justify the former without pursuing the latter?

During an Edgar Cayce reading, he once chastised: "Why follow a teacher when you can follow the Teacher of teachers?"

[sandy]

I don't know S-L but it seems to me, in my experience, the more I find out about me (including the good and not so good) and OWN, the more enlightened I become :)

Hope this helps.

[Guest]

I hope to use this post as a means of canvassing the forum on this topic as it's been bothering me of late.

Is there any point to gathering information and trying to "figure it out" on an intellectual level? How far can one take this? Perhaps one might only select information that "resonates" with you in hopes of forming a clearer picture. I heartily agree, but I've been burned by this in the past. Chalk it up to lack of experience, outside manipulation, or something else, but I wonder if this is really the only/best way.

If we define a state of enlightenment as bridging the gap between mind and spirit, and allowing spirit to express itself through you - then you'd be tapping directly into Source. The veil of deception... would not be troublesome for you. Confusion would melt away into pure Knowingness.

To wit: what is the most effective way to spend one's time? Piecing it out through websites like this one (which I love, for the record :)), or focusing on one of the many spiritual practices/paths that lead to enlightenment? A bit of both? How can you justify the former without pursuing the latter?

During an Edgar Cayce reading, he once chastised: "Why follow a teacher when you can follow the Teacher of teachers?"

Most certainly, I do not have the answers. Yes, there are many who choose many paths -create your own way....

I believe what Edgar Cayce was saying do not look to others or outside of yourself for answers or to connect to Source. But meditate and go within to find your answers and connect with Source.

Thank you for your post and welcome to Avalon

Nora

We are all related

[Anchor]

Yes, there many who choose many paths -create your own way....

You nailed that.

Krishnamurti says Truth is a pathless land (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?12377-Krishnamurti-Truth-Is-A-Pathless-Land&p=108777) but that just means we each have our own and it cant really be shared. So my path wont be your path, and thus there is no precedent.

What there is though, are some useful tips and tricks that many have in common.

[G.A]

I am personally struggling with a concept similar to this myself.

A persons life can undergo no physical changes from day to day (e.g. house, car, job, weather, government, finances, etc), yet becoming more spiritual or enlightened takes that very same life and shifts the importance of the physical away. So in reality, nothing in the physical life needs to necessarily change and the only change is taking place inside you. As the changes inside you manifest, it may or may not be reflected in your physical reality in the form of lifestyle/consumption. It may be a means of just accepting your life as it is.

So I wonder, too, what the point of gathering more information is. There are people living the life you wish you had (whatever that may be), without ever gathering any information or searching for enlightenment. The very search for knowledge and enlightenment has a way of taking one out of life, where we philosophize about stopping to smell the roses, but not actually doing so.

In my personal experience, the ratio of knowledge far outweighs the actions in life reflecting that knowledge and I think that needs to be brought to balance for myself and many others.

[TraineeHuman]

You can’t eat the menu at a restaurant. I see discussion as being like a menu. It has its place. It’s no substitute for getting your life right.

It’s necessary because it does help point you in certain directions, or stimulate you to ask yourself new questions.

It also acts like a mirror, and getting some feedback from others is part of the process too. Being open to others is part of the process as well, because the Universe speaks to you through them in various strange and unexpected ways.

[G.A]

You can’t eat the menu at a restaurant.

I really like this analogy. Thanks for using it.

[Guest]

You can’t eat the menu at a restaurant. I see discussion as being like a menu. It has its place. It’s no substitute for getting your life right.

It’s necessary because it does help point you in certain directions, or stimulate you to ask yourself new questions.

It also acts like a mirror, and getting some feedback from others is part of the process too. Being open to others is part of the process as well, because the Universe speaks to you through them in various strange and unexpected ways.


No, you certainly can't eat the menu lol.

Yes, we do need human interactions and have met some beautiful people along the way; some amazing things have come through and about as a result. I've come across a lot of information that has helped me in a myriad of ways too. I am a work in progress.:o

Nora

We are all related

[Jeffrey]

There's a lot I would like to say about this as I find myself asking the same questions. Please, allow me to share these gems (shout out to VaughnB) from Sri Ramakrishna.


Two friends went into an orchard. One of them possessing much worldly wisdom, immediately began to count the mango trees there and the number of mangoes each tree bore, and to estimate what might be the approximate value of the whole orchard. His companion went to the owner, made friends with him, and then, quietly going into a tree, began at his host’s desire to pluck the fruits and eat them. Whom do you consider to be the wiser of the two? Eat the mangoes. It will satisfy your hunger. What is the good of counting the trees and leaves and making calculations? The vain man of intellect busies himself with finding out the ‘why’ and ‘wherefore’ of creation, while the humble man of wisdom makes friends with the Creator and enjoys His gift of supreme bliss.


The almanac forecasts the rainfall of the year. But not a drop of water will you get by squeezing the almanac. No, not one drop.

and Confucius says:


In the world there are many different roads but the destination is the same. There are a hundred deliberations but the result is one.

I have more thoughts on this, but it's family time and then I have to get to bed.

Great thread.

Vivek

[Jenci]

Is there any point to gathering information and trying to "figure it out" on an intellectual level? How far can one take this? Perhaps one might only select information that "resonates" with you in hopes of forming a clearer picture. I heartily agree, but I've been burned by this in the past. Chalk it up to lack of experience, outside manipulation, or something else, but I wonder if this is really the only/best way.



Hi SL

Getting burned is part of the process. Allow the burning to happen, I say.

I would gather information, fix on what I believed was true, only to find out it way another lie. Over and over this happened until eventually I moved to the point of not believing in any of it.

When I have no fixed points of reference, I can't be lied to or told the truth and because I am not fixed or holding onto anything, information can flow freely and when the information/energy flows freely, some greater knowing is here.

And this greater knowing doesn't need to assert itself.

Jeanette

[Ultima Thule]

Perhaps the very thing to use ones time is to search and study of information to be finally sick and tired of searching and when you can't take any more, you give up and look inside. Perhaps it is very worthwhile to search extensively and make sure there is no point in searching.

Add: Before I actually try to lift 2500 pounds, I think I can´t do it. After I try, I know I can´t do it. Therefore it is good to try the impossible and then surrender to what is possible?

UT

[777]

You can’t eat the menu at a restaurant. I see discussion as being like a menu. It has its place. It’s no substitute for getting your life right.

It’s necessary because it does help point you in certain directions, or stimulate you to ask yourself new questions.

It also acts like a mirror, and getting some feedback from others is part of the process too. Being open to others is part of the process as well, because the Universe speaks to you through them in various strange and unexpected ways.

I would echo this. If you gather knowledge in many fields you can then see the principle of correlation in effect. This allows you to form your raison d'etre along your path. Without the correlation of overtly incoherent areas you have no supporting evidence for your own views.

Also I'd like to venture an opinion that will put me at direct loggerheads with many on here. I'm not searching for enlightenment. This trip in 3d is actively providing enlightenment for my higher selves by inception. I don't need to be enlightened in 3d, mindful.......yes, enlightened, no. Spiritual, yes, god-like, no.

[Bollinger]

I hope to use this post as a means of canvassing the forum on this topic as it's been bothering me of late.

Is there any point to gathering information and trying to "figure it out" on an intellectual level? How far can one take this? Perhaps one might only select information that "resonates" with you in hopes of forming a clearer picture. I heartily agree, but I've been burned by this in the past. Chalk it up to lack of experience, outside manipulation, or something else, but I wonder if this is really the only/best way.

If we define a state of enlightenment as bridging the gap between mind and spirit, and allowing spirit to express itself through you - then you'd be tapping directly into Source. The veil of deception... would not be troublesome for you. Confusion would melt away into pure Knowingness.

To wit: what is the most effective way to spend one's time? Piecing it out through websites like this one (which I love, for the record :)), or focusing on one of the many spiritual practices/paths that lead to enlightenment? A bit of both? How can you justify the former without pursuing the latter?

During an Edgar Cayce reading, he once chastised: "Why follow a teacher when you can follow the Teacher of teachers?"

One very big problem with “gathering information” in order to “figure it out” is that our mode of communication (i.e. words) is an extremely blunt instrument. Trainee Human pointed out that you can’t eat the menu, but how often have you ordered something from it only to find what arrives at your table is nothing like you understood it to be?

The study of philosophies ancient, eastern, western, modern, or whatever label we choose to give it is, in my estimation, grossly overrated. Why? Because you are already living; already experiencing. You are already enlightened. I find it a little bewildering that people want to follow gurus, masters, leaders on matters of enlightenment. Why? Are they not living and experiencing like you? The belief is that these people have access to something the rest don’t and I simply don’t believe that. No two people are the same; no two life-paths are the same. Let the guru go his way and you can go yours.

If there is one rule of thumb to follow it is this. Anytime someone says, hey look at me and what I’m saying; I know more than you and I am more powerful than you can possibly imagine. Would you like to follow me? Your answer should be, no thanks I have my own radar just like you have yours.

As for attaining enlightenment through meditation, I have problems with that too. People talk about how to quieten the chatty mind and while this may be a method of inducing some sort of trance or opening a doorway to something, I actually have a problem with the entire concept itself. We came here with 5 senses. Check. By meditating, you are practically cutting off all of those senses. Check. Why then do we have the senses if the most valuable thing we can do with them is to shut them off?

Sorry, but when the time comes and we truly no longer need those 5 senses, I’ll be happy to let them go, but not before because there’s simply no reason for it; in spite of what you may have read from “books”.

That’s my perspective anyway. Take it or leave it; I expect most will leave it.

[Tarka the Duck]

@Bollinger



People talk about how to quieten the chatty mind and while this may be a method of inducing some sort of trance or opening a doorway to something, I actually have a problem with the entire concept itself. We came here with 5 senses. Check. By meditating, you are practically cutting off all of those senses. Check. Why then do we have the senses if the most valuable thing we can do with them is to shut them off?

Sorry, but when the time comes and we truly no longer need those 5 senses, I’ll be happy to let them go, but not before because there’s simply no reason for it; in spite of what you may have read from “books”.

To express an opinion about something as experiential and practical as meditation while never having practised it seems futile
(and if you have practised, and still hold this view, I'd be really interested to hear what method you used).
Obviously, I don't know where you got your ideas from, but seriously, I would check your source!

If the senses are cut off, you're definitely doing something wrong: meditation is all about clarity.
If you're in a trance, you're definitely doing something wrong: meditation is all about awareness.

Kathie

[S-L]

Two friends went into an orchard. One of them possessing much worldly wisdom, immediately began to count the mango trees there and the number of mangoes each tree bore, and to estimate what might be the approximate value of the whole orchard. His companion went to the owner, made friends with him, and then, quietly going into a tree, began at his host’s desire to pluck the fruits and eat them. Whom do you consider to be the wiser of the two? Eat the mangoes. It will satisfy your hunger. What is the good of counting the trees and leaves and making calculations? The vain man of intellect busies himself with finding out the ‘why’ and ‘wherefore’ of creation, while the humble man of wisdom makes friends with the Creator and enjoys His gift of supreme bliss.

Thank you for the great story - it hit all the right chords with me. My gut tells me this is the way to go as well, and yet I can't help but find myself driven to pursue the more mundane, material types of information. Seen in a certain light, they seem mutually exclusive. Eastern mystics/zen philosophies speak of "dropping the mind"; the drive for an ever better information-based logical understanding of the world would seem to negate this approach.

Here is how I have reconciled the two. I'd be interested in hearing what anyone else thinks of this. I do believe life's ultimate purpose is to experience the divine within this 3D existence - to act as a bridge, or a vessel, for a little piece of heaven to creatively express itself through you, and make a contribution to this world based on your unique design and capacity. It may take many lifetimes to get to this point, but eventually everyone will cross that bridge, and then "graduate" to the next step of existence. (No, I don't believe in the whole ascension scenario.) However... to be able to effectively contribute to the world, even having had achieved this level of awareness/enlightenment, one must possess a worldly, 3D wisdom. A certain comprehension of the skills and knowledge to be an effective contributor in the world. Otherwise, you're a heavenly babe thrust into a den of very 3D wolves. One needs to balance the two.

In that light I've chosen the Steps to Knowledge spiritual practice by Marshall Vian Summers, and spend a huge amount of time educating myself through sites like Avalon and Camelot, and others. Part of me always wonders if the latter will negatively impact the former (the whole zen 'no mind' notion), but we shall see.

[S-L]

Yes, there many who choose many paths -create your own way....

You nailed that.

Krishnamurti says Truth is a pathless land (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?12377-Krishnamurti-Truth-Is-A-Pathless-Land&p=108777) but that just means we each have our own and it cant really be shared. So my path wont be your path, and thus there is no precedent.

What there is though, are some useful tips and tricks that many have in common.

Thank you for that beautiful discourse. I have read it before. I benefit from it each time I read it! Krishnamurti's writing is so poetic. In that same vein, perhaps you will enjoy one of his poems (http://www.messagefrommasters.com/Life_of_Masters/Jiddu/An_Old%20poem_of_J._Krishnamurti.htm), which I greatly like.

[mind-scape]

To quote a very dear friend of mine,
"The best answer might very well be, that there is no best answer."
Ah, how I'd fought and fought this logic... time and time again... only to realize that I'd been living out this statement within my own mind battles.

I'm a firm believer that there is a difference between ones fate...and one's ultimate destiny.
Fate can be geared and readjusted to suit the circumstances. An internal response to an external challenge, or... and external response to an internal challenge. Destiny, on the other hand, feels more ultimate... An inevitable destination for the soul, so to speak... regardless of circumstance and response.

I agree with you wise ones above.
Do what feels right and make your own song...
Each and every note is precious, unique, and holds an important piece of yourself.

[Peace of Mind]

You have to do what’s best for you; everyone is not wired the same. We all have different purposes that coordinate with each other. It is always good to take in information from various sources. However, the more you know…the more you’ll learn just how much you don’t know. Carry A box of salt when visiting alternative sites and think with your heart because the truth is not only in front of your face… it was deliberately smashed into pieces to cause confusion. Patience and love will aid you in assembling the puzzle we call life, haste and intolerance will only lead to mistakes…some regrettable.

In reality, we already know what our problems are....we just have to act on them.


Peace

[Bollinger]

To express an opinion about something as experiential and practical as meditation while never having practised it seems futile
(and if you have practised, and still hold this view, I'd be really interested to hear what method you used).
Obviously, I don't know where you got your ideas from, but seriously, I would check your source!

If the senses are cut off, you're definitely doing something wrong: meditation is all about clarity.
If you're in a trance, you're definitely doing something wrong: meditation is all about awareness.

Kathie

Hi Kathie,

I respect your point of view of course whether we agree or disagree. My ideas do not have a source; they are just observations made from experience. I have never myself gone into a trance, nor have I managed to achieve anything that resembles the definition of meditation; and I know there are many. Your definition of it would be most welcome.

As far as statistics are concerned, around 10% of any random sample of the population practices some sort of meditation so it’s not something that can boast widespread acceptance as being a useful thing to do; that is not to say it isn’t.

By saying that one cuts the senses off during meditation, I simply meant that it is not really something one does while riding on a roller coaster. It is usual but not always necessary to dim the lights and ensure there is quiet. On the other hand, some meditations are practised with special incantations. But none of that is really of any consequence because we only need to make a few inquiries to understand the usefulness and validity of meditation.

1. Can we use meditation to change world politics?
2. Is it possible to meditate a cure for an illness?
3. Does it give anyone other than the person meditating anything of value?
4. Can anyone achieve whatever it is that meditation is meant to achieve?
5. Can it bring peace to our world?
6. Can it end poverty, disease and injustice?

If the answer to most of these questions is no, what use is it? If it is done simply to make happy or bring peace to the individual who practises it, it is of no use to me. Most people would rather smoke, drink or take drugs to achieve short-term happiness and they would argue that it is faster, more efficient and yields instant results. Whilst I don’t endorse any of those things, I hope I was able to demonstrate the point.

[S-L]

1. Can we use meditation to change world politics?
2. Is it possible to meditate a cure for an illness?
3. Does it give anyone other than the person meditating anything of value?
4. Can anyone achieve whatever it is that meditation is meant to achieve?
5. Can it bring peace to our world?
6. Can it end poverty, disease and injustice?


Interesting questions :)

If you agree that meditation can assist one in getting in touch with one's inner light, then perhaps you can also agree that the answer to all these questions is a resounding 'yes'. If you feel meditation cannot help with this, then I can understand why you'd be skeptical!

[Anchor]

Is there any point to gathering information and trying to "figure it out" on an intellectual level?

What other choice do you have?

I like the bridge analogy you use, here is mine: the intellect stands at one side of the chasm (with you). You can just hear something on the other side, but you cannot make out what is said with any great clarity, but you have an idea that this is the best chance you have and thus your intellect is guided toward the goal of building a bridge. Each brick you lay, is matched by several on the other side. The work is done in faith that you are doing the right thing and one day the bridge will be built - and then the next challenge... crossing it and trusting your other-self did the job properly on their part :)

The other side of that chasm is a "future you", what can be termed the higher-self and in those irrational, non-intellectual moments of faith motivated random exploration, meditation etc, one discovers that one can in fact talk to the higher-self anyway - and then one finds that this might have been happening for some while and explains the synchronicities one may have observed in ones "guided" life.

I read your post - and I had to assume something of your definition of spirit. My definition may be different, so I could not directly address it. My context is you have Mind, Body, Spirit and then an eternal Soul. The spirit acts as a kind of shuttle between the Mind/Body and Soul - it is the connection between that which is outside of time and that which is in time. So in our "bridging" analogies, you are building a path of conciousness from your mind/body/spirit to your soul and everything that itself connects to. The bridge is a spiritual structure.


During an Edgar Cayce reading, he once chastised: "Why follow a teacher when you can follow the Teacher of teachers?"

Yes, well he also said large parts of the US would sink into the sea! I'd say with EC, there is much of value - but discernment is always necessary - this is true for of all our external sources of data. If your going to follow anything follow you heart - that is where the connections all lead from anyway.

[noxon medem]

- Yes


We all want to force reality .

- well

Beware .

[TraineeHuman]

1. Can we use meditation to change world politics?
2. Is it possible to meditate a cure for an illness?
3. Does it give anyone other than the person meditating anything of value?
4. Can anyone achieve whatever it is that meditation is meant to achieve?
5. Can it bring peace to our world?
6. Can it end poverty, disease and injustice?



1. Have a look at any of the threads about Krishnamurti. Krishnamurti always began his discourses with an explanation that changing the situation the world is in, and changing what causes the politics, was the goal of what he talked about. He did also say that such change can primarily come about only at an individual level to begin with. In every discourse he would also explain part of the psychological process involved in bringing such change ultimately to world politics.

2. How psychic healing works is by the healer going into a meditative state, plus directing or intending the energy to the patient. I have certainly used it to cure at least a number of terminal cases or create "total remissions", according to some quite sceptical physicians. Japan didn't have any such thing as psychiatric facilities until the early 80s, because the Zen masters did so well (far better than any psychiatrists) at resolving or dealing with all mental health issues.

3. Greater inward joy and peace is something that is noticed by everyone, even by strangers you pass in the street. Joy and peace are also quietly contagious, and have a slight healing effect on everyone you meet.

4. As I understand it, it's essential for meditation to be integrated with a process of self-healing that touches all aspects of a person's life. There isn't one goal to achieve, but always new frontiers to go further. I guess there are some goals, such as finding out who you truly are. (Most people haven't much of a clue who/what they really are, because they haven't looked deeply enough and long enough.) But ultimately it's about achieving greater and greater freedom from unhappiness and creating the same for others.

5., 6.: The answers are much the same as for 1.

[Bollinger]

TH, thank you for your well constructed reply to my post. In order to bring about a meaningful dialogue I need to take your paragraphs one at a time for each of them deals with separate but important issues.

You are obviously well read and are by no means a novice (like me) in these matters so bear with me as I try to understand and reply to what you are saying.


1. Have a look at any of the threads about Krishnamurti. Krishnamurti always began his discourses with an explanation that changing the situation the world is in, and changing what causes the politics, was the goal of what he talked about. He did also say that such change can primarily come about only at an individual level to begin with. In every discourse he would also explain part of the psychological process involved in bringing such change ultimately to world politics.
I had previously browsed the Krishnamurti threads, listened to his words in the videos and essentially found myself agreeing with a lot of what he says – for example that we haven’t been taught how to live without conflict. Absolutely true and I have no doubt it is possible to do so. Indeed a very insightful and wise man. As always, identifying a problem is usually the first and easier step in any endeavour. The second step of finding a general solution is more difficult and the theme of this thread, I would suppose, is more to do with exploring “how” rather than “what” which is the subject of your next paragraph.


2. How psychic healing works is by the healer going into a meditative state, plus directing or intending the energy to the patient. I have certainly used it to cure at least a number of terminal cases or create "total remissions", according to some quite sceptical physicians. Japan didn't have any such thing as psychiatric facilities until the early 80s, because the Zen masters did so well (far better than any psychiatrists) at resolving or dealing with all mental health issues.
You would agree that this is an attempt to explain the process of healing which, I won’t pretend to understand, isn’t nearly as important as whether or not it actually works. Let’s, for the sake of argument, assume it does. One person manages to cure another person by “going into a meditative state and intending the energy to the patient”. How many people will it take then to cure the entire world? By all accounts, it would seem one person meditating cannot cure more than a handful of people at a time for if it were otherwise, I am bound to ask; what are you waiting for?

So how many will it take? If you’re telling me half the world population have to become Zen masters or meditation experts before the world goes into “remission”, we know it’s not going to happen. Again, I come back to my main contention that practices of this kind and others like it have negligible effect on the world as a whole because the take-up is so low. Why is that? Perhaps it is too difficult, or takes too much effort but I suspect it might be to do with the fact that we are not all capable of it (like we can’t all become athletes or painters or musicians etc) because we simply don’t have sufficient talent for it.


3. Greater inward joy and peace is something that is noticed by everyone, even by strangers you pass in the street. Joy and peace are also quietly contagious, and have a slight healing effect on everyone you meet.
Well, joy and peace may be a by-product of meditation and I have no problem with that but then so is listening to Beethoven’s 5th piano concerto, or standing on top of a hill looking down at a beautiful countryside landscape, or seeing the joy inside a child’s eyes when they receive that toy; you get my point. You may say it’s not the same but joy and peace is joy and peace and yes it is contagious and I’ve seen it spread among people for all sorts of reasons, not just because someone meditated. In other words, what you describe (as joy and peace) can be achieved on a personal level via other means and not exclusively because of meditation.


4. As I understand it, it's essential for meditation to be integrated with a process of self-healing that touches all aspects of a person's life. There isn't one goal to achieve, but always new frontiers to go further. I guess there are some goals, such as finding out who you truly are. (Most people haven't much of a clue who/what they really are, because they haven't looked deeply enough and long enough.) But ultimately it's about achieving greater and greater freedom from unhappiness and creating the same for others.
The first sentence in paragraph four does not mean anything to me and I find that a lot of sentences on this forum written in the same vain, are like that. This is not an attempt at sarcasm or disparagement, it is simply how I see it (or don’t see it) as the case may be, and therefore the word sophistry immediately springs to mind. For example, another phrase “finding out who you truly are” does not mean anything to me. If there is some hidden information about me that I don’t know or have forgotten, why has it been hidden from me and why does it have to take meditation to access it? Seems rather a pointless exercise or is someone or something playing games with humanity?

To conclude then, let’s assume all that you say about meditation (on a personal level) is true. It can bring joy; perhaps heal some people and so on. It would seem that a very large number of people have to take up the practice before any real difference can be made to the world and if that is the case, world peace and justice for all can be achieved equally well if we all stopped trying to kill each other and turned to peaceful means dedicated to bringing about health and prosperity to all rather than the few. I’m not really interested in peace and joy just for myself while others live in poverty and filth.

How on earth do we preach meditation to a family struck by famine? How do we explain to a 10 year-old that meditation is the key when she lies in hospital with first degree burns from a napalm bomb? Where would one find the words to explain to a single mother living in the ghettos in some god-forsaken corner of the city surviving on welfare, that meditation is the answer? It’s hard if not damn near impossible.

[TraineeHuman]

Bollinger, I appreciate and applaud your commitment to employing critical analysis and to refusing to accept anything that has not been clearly proved to you to be true. You raise such big issues, my current work commitments prevent me from being able to provide you anywhere near a detailed enough response to address your concerns, unfortunately.

All I can offer right now is a condensed and very incomplete version, one certainly lacking adequate explanation for someone like yourself. Firstly, may I point out that the problems on the planet are too vast for any quick fix. But we have to start somewhere, and the stronger and more balanced people make themselves internally, the more likely they are to contribute to a meaningful start that has permanent impact.

Another, very central issue is that meditation and “mysticism” is radically empirical, in the sense that it takes certain things as given that can only be realised through direct experience (including direct “spiritual” experiences in addition to sense experience). It seems clear to me that you don’t accept its “assumptions”. Unfortunately, for the most part their truth can only be discovered through experience, through praxis. It’s a little like you were refusing to try following a recipe for health cookies (if such exist) in a world where one couldn’t buy any baked items. To make things worse, meditation, and self-observation, is a very subtle recipe indeed. I guess most people do need to start off trying the recipe on faith, and waiting possibly months before they see it even begin to work.

A related issue is that understanding the nature of one’s own self is by no means a purely theoretical exercise. It is only achievable through hard work combined with self-reflection. Meditation is also an extraordinarily subtle technology of self-reflection of a certain type. However, if you don’t accept the radical empiricism, ultimately I would have thought you would need to accept the status quo of contemporary philosophy. In the world of philosophy, East-West philosophy is well-known to be the equal, in sophistication and substantiation, of any other area of contemporary philosophy. And because it is the one area of philosophy which examines the nature of the self in enormous detail and complexity, I don’t see why you feel justified in dismissing the best that philosophy has to offer regarding the nature of self as being meaningless.

As far as bringing about a saner society goes, sociologists are unanimous that each age’s ethos and culture is largely determined by a small “cutting edge” group decades prior; and that currently that “cutting edge” group is not the Illuminati etc but it is largely the alternative movement, including some of its spiritual side. So, I take it as extremely likely that in the near future a very large proportion of the population – at least those not dying of famine, etc – will be taking up true spirituality. True spirituality takes many forms, and actually I would say the essence is self-reflection more than anything you might recognize as “meditation”.

Now to address some of your other specific objections. Firstly, Krishnamurti is, to put it mildly, very difficult for almost anyone to understand fully. I certainly don’t agree with you that his solutions and explanations are as partial as you apparently believe. Incidentally, I don’t agree with you that identifying a problem accurately is only a beginning. I claim it’s over half the solution. Certainly I find this has always been true when I have worked as a psychotherapist and also in my self-reflection in working on myself.

Secondly, everybody has the natural ability to perform psychic healing. I’ve performed instant “miracle” cures in twenty minutes on enough terminal patients that I happen to know for a fact that it works. I can watch how it's working through telepathy. Most people aren’t able to heal at that kind of a level, or not without maybe a lifetime of training. But if we had a society based on true spirituality (without religion), you would see it working everywhere. In the states of Arkansas and Oklahoma, psychic healing is legally accepted as a valid form of healing and treatment. That would be what it would be like everywhere.

Thirdly, I don’t have the time right now to explain why, but let me assert that experiencing any type of joy and peace is in effect a type of meditation.

[markpierre]

Is there any point to gathering information and trying to "figure it out" on an intellectual level?



To wit: what is the most effective way to spend one's time? Piecing it out through websites like this one (which I love, for the record :)), or focusing on one of the many spiritual practices/paths that lead to enlightenment? A bit of both? How can you justify the former without pursuing the latter?

During an Edgar Cayce reading, he once chastised: "Why follow a teacher when you can follow the Teacher of teachers?"

Hi SL. You're probably overwhelmed with information.
Really good question though. Most people wouldn't ask.

The answer to the first question is probably no.

There are how many thousand people visiting these threads every day, and there will be nearly as many personal definitions of what enlightenment is. It's anybody's guess which one it is, so who cares?
They all come from books or here-say, or personal experiences.
I've met 2 people in my life that I regard as 'fully enlightened' and I didn't meet them here. I say fully enlightened only because there wasn't much of anything left here for them to do. In fact both of them left. It's just a term.

You're not going to figure it out. You're going to get tired of figuring it out and it will happen of it's own. And it won't be like anything you could have imagined. It could even go noticed. One day you might go 'hmmm, everything is different.'

What is it? The light of day?
The light of reason?
Sometimes the inside of my head lights up like a florescent tube. So what is that?
An enlightenment if you had to define it. It doesn't give me any information,
it's just weird.

All of us in our experience, the whole lot of us, are in some stage of individual transition. Everyone will agree on that. There's no one here that can tell where anyone else is in they're individual journeys. And the purpose of time is to take as much time as you need. Some guys feel in more of a hurry than others. It depends on how uncomfortable you are in your own skin.

Everyone is only one thought away from enlightenment, and no one knows which one that is. And that includes you right now. You're already doing what you're meant to be doing, and thinking what you're meant to be thinking, or you wouldn't be doing it. But you'd be doing something else. No one is screwing up.

You may go out and get advice and visit healers and lots of interesting stuff, and that's all just what you did on your journey home. You can do anything you want, think about anything you want. Pick a path. What the heck.
If you do things like come to Avalon because you love it that's a really good reason. If you came because you were scared, I guess that would be a compelling reason. Either way. It's what you do.

So can I just make a suggestion? That you just go and live your life and pay attention to what and who is around you the best you can. But by 'best' I mean with as much integrity and caring as you can. Be as honest as you can. Never mind what you think of yourself, just do the best you can.

I was told by a particularly remarkable entity once that simple kindness is the most transformational discipline that a human can exercise. I accepted that as true.

Watch and read the stories, be alert and aware of what's going on in your world, but notice how things make you feel, and feel the feelings. Don't exclude anything. Pay attention to how you feel from day to day, then moment to moment.
You'll notice yourself changing. But it's because you're now paying attention to your thoughts and feelings instead of reacting to them. You've become aware.
You had always been changing. It's not about what you think, it's about how you associate with your thoughts. Do you accept them or reject them?
'No thoughts' is nice, but you won't stay there. Then what?

When you start to notice that there is less and less conflict in you regardless of what's 'happening', and you notice that you're accepting yourself and others more and more, the game is up. You only spiral up in one direction. Up.
Then who cares how much 'time' it takes?

Cheers!

[Anchor]

@markpierre

+1

All that and either start or continue to meditate regularly :)

[Bollinger]

…if we had a society based on true spirituality (without religion), you would see it working everywhere…

And there lies the problem which is easy to see but difficult to solve. Even mainstream scientists say the same. We don’t know how to explain or do something now but we will in the future. It seems we have nothing other than the old “extrapolation” or “faith” game to fall back on. Which is it going to be? Perhaps, as you suggest, a worldwide recognition of spirituality and meditation will sweep across the planet and heal all, maybe free energy will catapult us to the stars or even some celestial race will leap to our rescue at some future point in time. It seems we must forever lie and wait in hope for any one or more of those things to happen.

You see; anytime anyone says to me, just wait, you’ll see, all I can hear is religion. That is the basis of all religious ideas. No religion ever promises anything now, it’s always in the future provided you do x, y and z.

TH, wittingly or unwittingly, you are selling me hope, which in itself is not a bad thing, but it solves nothing. It doesn’t really matter whether the things you say are possible or not. It even doesn't matter what the gurus say or advise. What matters is that we are still all in a huge hole with people clambering on top of each other trying to see if they can get any closer to the top only to find, it’s still all darkness and we continue to fall.

I guess, until someone comes along and says “cut”, takes away the illusion and you see the props being wheeled away, we won’t know what this movie is about, why we were ever in it and who the writers and directors are. There, I’ve just sold us both yet another bit of hope.

[bridgetlilstar]

I totally agree. Each and everyone of us has his own path to follow, and there might be a lot of different ways to get there. Thus No one is wrong.. I guess in the end it is just a question of creating as much experiences as we can, listening to our inner selves, trusting our hearts. Well that is what I personnally have come to realize works for me;)

[Jenci]

Everyone is only one thought away from enlightenment, and no one knows which one that is. And that includes you right now. You're already doing what you're meant to be doing, and thinking what you're meant to be thinking, or you wouldn't be doing it. But you'd be doing something else. No one is screwing up.



Absolutely! Well said.
Jeanette

[13th Warrior]

IF enlightenment is the end; then i don't want it...yet.

I'm still in love with the journey...

[Tarka the Duck]

Bollinger wrote:



How on earth do we preach meditation to a family struck by famine? How do we explain to a 10 year-old that meditation is the key when she lies in hospital with first degree burns from a napalm bomb? Where would one find the words to explain to a single mother living in the ghettos in some god-forsaken corner of the city surviving on welfare, that meditation is the answer? It’s hard if not damn near impossible.


It's interesting that the country that is most probably most associated with meditation and other spiritual pursuits - India - had and still has many many thousands of people living in those terrible circumstances.
Meditation isn't something just practised by the affluent middle classes...it has been used as a tool for centuries.

[Tony]

Before one can approach meditation one has to be a healthy human being.
Meaning all the right circumstances have to be in place,
before that person to want to understand meditation.

A person who is physically or mentally suffering needs to be brought to some degree of balance,
before they can begin to seek spiritual needs.

However it is interesting that meditation and prayer takes place in many so called poor countries.
The very reason why people take up meditation is because they recognise suffering in themselves and others.

Coming to meditation is also part of our karma. It means that,
that person intends to become a spiritual practitioner, and not merely to join a group.

It has many practical benefits, of seeing themselves and the universe in a different light.
Instead of the one that they are made to believe.

It has nothing at all to do with hope. That maybe what religions or religious people do but it has nothing to do with meditation.

Meditation is seeing clearly, beyond concepts and ideas.
Hope, fear and ignorance are the three poisons that bind people to their suffering.
Meditation cuts through this confused state.

Of course one has to meditate properly.

[Bollinger]

Before one can approach meditation one has to be a healthy human being.
Meaning all the right circumstances have to be in place,
before that person to want to understand meditation.
So, you are asserting that certain conditions must be in place before a person can even entertain the idea of meditation; namely that we have to be physically and mentally healthy. Isn’t this the same as one of the rules to catholic ordination to priesthood being that the candidate must be free of physical deformities and disease? That’s smells like religion to me.


A person who is physically or mentally suffering needs to be brought to some degree of balance, before they can begin to seek spiritual needs.
That precludes something like 2 billion people. We’re now bordering on elitism.


However it is interesting that meditation and prayer takes place in many so called poor countries. The very reason why people take up meditation is because they recognise suffering in themselves and others.
Interesting in what way exactly? Interesting because however much they meditate and pray the poverty just keeps on increasing or interesting in that we can’t explain why people in such dire situations should even think about such things? It doesn’t matter. Human nature is such that we often turn to prayer or whatever your customary belief system dictates, as a last resort. Most people in the third world countries take the initiative to do whatever is physically and humanly possible in order to secure survival. However, it doesn't stop them praying at the same time hoping that something somewhere will hear it and act on it.


Coming to meditation is also part of our karma. It means that, that person intends to become a spiritual practitioner, and not merely to join a group.
It has many practical benefits, of seeing themselves and the universe in a different light. Instead of the one that they are made to believe.
That’s all well and good and very commendable if your next meal is assured and you know the corrugated iron roof over your head isn’t going to be swept away in the wind and the flood


It has nothing at all to do with hope. That maybe what religions or religious people do but it has nothing to do with meditation.
To most people meditation isn’t the hope but the effect they “hope” it will have that connects it to hope. That was the point I was making.


Meditation is seeing clearly, beyond concepts and ideas. Hope, fear and ignorance are the three poisons that bind people to their suffering. Meditation cuts through this confused state.
Not sure what this means but it sounds like if I meditate and cut through the concepts and ideas, eliminate the three poisons where everything becomes clear and there is no more confusion, my job is done. However, we’re still left with 2 billion going hungry and living in squalid conditions and they have absolutely no chance of achieving the same because there’s simply no way the idea of meditation can reach them; sounds unfair to me.


Of course one has to meditate properly.
And finally, if you’re not doing it right, you can’t come in. Isn’t that what all the main religions profess? For those based on theocracy, (probably the worse kind there is) it is the same as saying: if you make the right propitiations, utter the correct incantations and commit to having faith in some extraordinary claims, you can be one of us.

However we dress it up, if it looks like religion, sounds like religion and smells like religion, well maybe it is.

Having said all of that though, I wish to make clear that if meditation helps the individual in any way, whether to see things clearly or heal people and there is even a trace of good in it for those who practise it, I have absolutely no qualms about saying continue. It is when universal claims are made that things can get a bit sticky.

[Carmody]

Perhaps the very thing to use ones time is to search and study of information to be finally sick and tired of searching and when you can't take any more, you give up and look inside. Perhaps it is very worthwhile to search extensively and make sure there is no point in searching.

Add: Before I actually try to lift 2500 pounds, I think I can´t do it. After I try, I know I can´t do it. Therefore it is good to try the impossible and then surrender to what is possible?

UT

There is also that thing about finding your keys in the last place you look. Enlightenment, for lack of a better word, tends to be like that.

[Carmody]

…if we had a society based on true spirituality (without religion), you would see it working everywhere…

And there lies the problem which is easy to see but difficult to solve. Even mainstream scientists say the same. We don’t know how to explain or do something now but we will in the future. It seems we have nothing other than the old “extrapolation” or “faith” game to fall back on. Which is it going to be? Perhaps, as you suggest, a worldwide recognition of spirituality and meditation will sweep across the planet and heal all, maybe free energy will catapult us to the stars or even some celestial race will leap to our rescue at some future point in time. It seems we must forever lie and wait in hope for any one or more of those things to happen.

You see; anytime anyone says to me, just wait, you’ll see, all I can hear is religion. That is the basis of all religious ideas. No religion ever promises anything now, it’s always in the future provided you do x, y and z.

TH, wittingly or unwittingly, you are selling me hope, which in itself is not a bad thing, but it solves nothing. It doesn’t really matter whether the things you say are possible or not. It even doesn't matter what the gurus say or advise. What matters is that we are still all in a huge hole with people clambering on top of each other trying to see if they can get any closer to the top only to find, it’s still all darkness and we continue to fall.

I guess, until someone comes along and says “cut”, takes away the illusion and you see the props being wheeled away, we won’t know what this movie is about, why we were ever in it and who the writers and directors are. There, I’ve just sold us both yet another bit of hope.

More than anything it could be explained to you that the part of the mind, the physical structure of the mind that is in charge of creating the voice in the head we many times confuse as being the being inside'--actually is not the being inside, it is the voice of the body. it is an egoic projection. The ego is based in the animal functions and is the highest level of physical interface. in your particular case, it appears to be the literal point of the block within you---- the earlier point of yours about posts on this forum being sophistry.

it isn't specious posting or content..what it is ...it is the tip of the iceberg of your mind, your egoic premise... with regard to the egoic block you have on your TRUE self. And that is the beginning and the end of it, my friend.

We are not specious or at fault. The fault is in on your own mind, and we've covered this many times before.

We are not living in an act of sophistry.. ..and there is no intellectual argument to be had here, no nits to be picked or grains of sand to be collated, separated or discerned. It is a clear and simple case of your intellect as an erection of your 'egoic body' construction blocking your other self and senses from coming forth. It really is that simple and it is this very point you return to all the time..it is the direct evidence and case of this block.

Like and unknown and unseen corner that you cannot navigate, you are literally blocked from seeing it or experiencing it--- by your ego. An ego that appears to be so afraid, that it shunts any capacity or possibility of thought from even figuring out that such a thing can even exist within you. An ego that controls the creation of the inner voice and intellectual stimulation, as it creates the very idea of a 'thought', in your head. Which is why you cannot see it. You are literally blocking yourself from seeing it ----and then coming after us (and the rest of the world) as being at fault.

However much one may call this as being acts of intellectualism......if one considers the origins of human thought, as brought forth within a Freudian intellectual frameworks.. it is actually.....the very definition of animalism.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I guess, until someone comes along and says “cut”, takes away the illusion and you see the props being wheeled away, we won’t know what this movie is about, why we were ever in it and who the writers and directors are.

Only you can do this, for yourself, yet you fight it to the point of death, through your ego function.

The world is not at at fault, the core components of your inner function is at fault. It really is that simple. Yet you continue to block yourself and come at us.

This is ego. and that ego ----is quite obviously in charge of you. :)

[Mulder]

My opinion is most people will "free-load" off the small number of awakened souls. For example, only 5% of Americans fought the English in the 1776 Independence war, so 95% did free-load, and I think the same is likely to happen again. The question is should we be like the Prodigal Son's brother and be upset when the father welcomed him home after he spent all his inheritance in the city.

[another bob]

More than anything it could be explained to you that the part of the mind, the physical structure of the mind that is in charge of creating the voice in the head we many times confuse as being the being inside'--actually is not the being inside, it is the voice of the body. it is an egoic projection.



http://www.pbase.com/1heart/image/126440420

:yo:

[Semnyi]

Hi S-L,

You have a good topic here thanks for reaching out. I suggest you take a look at the two truths. Absolute, and relative.
Be careful when taking philosophy literally, it is often metaphor and analogy.

The literal truth is relative, this because all language is dualistic, made up of opposites with no point of reference. This relative truth is good for establishing ego, also for simple communication, this is useful for describing phenomena taking place within a closed system. In reality there is no closed system, every system is open and interdependant.
As far as following a teacher, it is important that you understand your motive.

Intelligence is helpful for attaining happiness, first you need a good heart,
but it is helpful to be able to communicate and use your situation to help others.

You can appreciate your own confusion, and this is it's own form of peace.

As for spending time, I suppose an investigation into what time is made of would be a good use of it.
As far as applying yourself, variety is good, try teachers, try being your own, but it doesn't change your experience with your spiritual friend, the one who makes your own mind appear, the one who shatters your ego. Good luck, and I hope this merit eases the suffering of all beings

[TraineeHuman]

Bollinger, it seems to me that you are changing the goalposts a little. As far as I understand, your original question was effectively:

“Show me some evidence or some cogent explanation that establishes that meditation, etc can actually drive, or contribute in a major way to, solutions to the planet’s problems.”

Now you seem to me to have changed the “can” to a “definitely will”.

Yes, I hope that a sufficiently large cutting-edge minority will influence humankind that way. But that has absolutely nothing to do with religion in any sense of that word. And it’s certainly not true that hope is all I have. I’m afraid you may never appreciate what I and some of the above posters have come to know, unless you take a chance and plunge in. Not out of “faith”, but simply because it’s a reasonable option to try.

In any case, no-one knows precisely what will happen on the planet in the future. So all that anyone, including yourself, has regarding that question is "hope". So your criticism of "all you have for certain is hope" is a pure red herring. It's not a criticism at all, as far as I can see, because you now seem to be asking the wrong question.

[RedeZra]

best bet is to connect with the Creator

accept the authority of the Master of the house and observe the house rules

the Master is not me not you not us but the Creator and the house rules is not mine not yours not ours but the rules of the Creator


the Creator came to save souls so enlightenment is like a walk in the park for those who appreciate the Creator

don't you know that God will take you all the way by the hand ?

[Bollinger]

Well I did think that, on this platform, my last post wasn’t going to win any popularity contests and I wasn’t at all surprised by the tone of the replies (especially from Carmody) who obviously has a very large following on this forum and isn’t afraid to use it.

As such Carmody has assumed the role of sweeper, not really interested in an intellectual debate but more with trying to stamp out anything that sounds a dissonant note against the grandiose reckonings of all things spiritual. When all else fails, blame the other person’s ego.


Like and unknown and unseen corner that you cannot navigate, you are literally blocked from seeing it or experiencing it--- by your ego. An ego that appears to be so afraid, that it shunts any capacity or possibility of thought from even figuring out that such a thing can even exist within you. An ego that controls the creation of the inner voice and intellectual stimulation, as it creates the very idea of a 'thought', in your head. Which is why you cannot see it. You are literally blocking yourself from seeing it ----and then coming after us (and the rest of the world) as being at fault.

So, to bring clarity to the debate here is how ego is defined (from dictionary.com) and I think it is a fair representation of all its meanings:

1. The “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

2. Psychoanalysis . the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.

3. egotism; conceit; self-importance: Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.

4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings: Your criticism wounded his ego.

5. ( often initial capital letter ) Philosophy .
a. the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.
b. Scholasticism . the complete person comprising both body and soul.

Can we ascertain to which meaning Carmody was alluding when attributing to it my apparent inability to “see it”? I believe he’s gone for number 2 which is labelled as being the psychoanalysis definition. Basically, he’s psychoanalysing me. At this point you are obliged to have a quite chuckle, as I did. Now, let’s put up another quote from the great man himself:


We are not living in an act of sophistry.. ..and there is no intellectual argument to be had here, no nits to be picked or grains of sand to be collated, separated or discerned. It is a clear and simple case of your intellect as an erection of your 'egoic body' construction blocking your other self and senses from coming forth. It really is that simple and it is this very point you return to all the time..it is the direct evidence and case of this block.
If I picked words out of a lucky dip and put them in any random order, it would probably make more sense. Here is what Carmody is doing here. You can agree or disagree if you like but give it a fair chance. The paragraph starts with “we”. What does that say? It says I represent the rest here who do not have sufficient capacity to respond to you so I have to do it for them.

Then he continues “there is no intellectual argument to be had..”; what does that say? All your writings are empty and carry no weight with us. He’s already decided for everyone that nothing of what I write is worth reading. Then he goes on to explain the fault in me: “your intellect is an erection of your egoic body contstruction blocking your other self and senses from coming forth”: and all this because I questioned the validity of enlightenment and meditation.

Yes, I admit I don’t “see it” but I don’t think it’s because of any kind of an erection but perhaps because “it” cannot be universally proven. Private viewing is no proof. Frankly I don’t care if you are capable of making regular excursions into other realms, or carry the privilege of talking with god, or if you live in a state of eternal bliss, or if you can heal a handful of people just by meditating. It all comes back to Hume’s famous quote:

If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.


The world is not at at fault, the core components of your inner function is at fault. It really is that simple. Yet you continue to block yourself and come at us.

This is ego. and that ego ----is quite obviously in charge of you.

It has nothing to do with amateurish assertions about being controlled by one’s ego (that is old hat anyway) because I suspect, as it is natural to do, you are providing relief to your own ego by hurling baseless accusations (e.g. by attacking the speaker rather than his words) because some of the tenets you hold so dearly are being questioned. And that, my friend, whether you like it or not, is how all religions are perpetuated and maintained.

[Bollinger]

Bollinger, it seems to me that you are changing the goalposts a little. As far as I understand, your original question was effectively:

“Show me some evidence or some cogent explanation that establishes that meditation, etc can actually drive, or contribute in a major way to, solutions to the planet’s problems.”

Now you seem to me to have changed the “can” to a “definitely will”.

Yes, I hope that a sufficiently large cutting-edge minority will influence humankind that way. But that has absolutely nothing to do with religion in any sense of that word. And it’s certainly not true that hope is all I have. I’m afraid you may never appreciate what I and some of the above posters have come to know, unless you take a chance and plunge in. Not out of “faith”, but simply because it’s a reasonable option to try.

In any case, no-one knows precisely what will happen on the planet in the future. So all that anyone, including yourself, has regarding that question is "hope". So your criticism of "all you have for certain is hope" is a pure red herring. It's not a criticism at all, as far as I can see, because you now seem to be asking the wrong question.


But TH, as much as I respect all that you say and do because I think there is genuine sincerity here, the central core of what I was saying is that we have no means of bringing these wonderful things in which you firmly believe and practise to the masses in general. We just do not have it. Why don’t we have it? It is the same as asking why we don’t have a lot of other good things that we believe would be right and useful for mankind.

Yes I am moving the goal posts because ultimately, this forum, this platform, this thing we call humanity is infinitely more important than one individual. You may in fact have the ability to do all that you say and I wish you every success in helping as many people as possible. But I’ve said it before and I’ll repeat it. If I plunge in, as you say, and become another expert, collectively, we are still where we were.

On the other hand I am not saying that, (and I hope people aren’t interpreting it in that way) all your efforts are futile and should be stopped immediately. Of course not; you are one individual and so am I and we belong in a tiny minority of people who perhaps carry a little bit of vain altruism about what happens to the rest.

Oh and by the way, I disagree with you about asking a wrong question. I don’t think there is ever a wrong question, only wrong answers.

[Anchor]

Bollinger,

it sounds very much to me like you would like a recipe or instruction manual - complete with worked examples and proof - preferably peer reviewed!

For some things such instructions do exist.

Meditation is not one of those things.

Meditation is different for each person that practises - in technique and it what exactly happens. Most people who meditate and share there experiences find a lot of common ground, but also a lot of unique differences.

And you will never know any of it until you try. Until then those people on this site who speak about meditation could be talking complete bollocks.

Do I hear this? "Why should I try? - What proof do you have for me that I wont be wasting my time?"

Last first, I have no proof, all I can do is tell you about my experiences. Its all anyone can do in this reality - where we have to map concepts and experiences to fallible words.

I don't think you actually need a reason to meditate, it kind of just happens. It might be an idea you get to do it, or some experimentation. Rarely is it scientific! For me it was a leap of faith, it just felt like the right thing to do - and it was (for me).

I am sure, sooner or later, on ones evolutionary path, which includes ones spiritual evolution; at some point, if it has not happened already, ones soul brings about the circumstances in ones life and if not this one, then one to follow, where the attention is turned inward in a state of quiet meditative contemplation - for no other reason than faith in the correctness of this action. Shortly thereafter one has all the proof they need - but it will only be for that individual.

I believe that what I have said here is true for any seeker who reads this that has not yet actively attempted to meditate and start on the inner path in a concious manner.

[Bollinger]

Bollinger,

it sounds very much to me like you would like a recipe or instruction manual - complete with worked examples and proof - preferably peer reviewed!

For some things such instructions do exist.

Meditation is not one of those things.

Meditation is different for each person that practises - in technique and it what exactly happens. Most people who meditate and share there experiences find a lot of common ground, but also a lot of unique differences.

And you will never know any of it until you try. Until then those people on this site who speak about meditation could be talking complete bollocks.

Do I hear this? "Why should I try? - What proof do you have for me that I wont be wasting my time?"

Last first, I have no proof, all I can do is tell you about my experiences. Its all anyone can do in this reality - where we have to map concepts and experiences to fallible words.

I don't think you actually need a reason to meditate, it kind of just happens. It might be an idea you get to do it, or some experimentation. Rarely is it scientific! For me it was a leap of faith, it just felt like the right thing to do - and it was (for me).

I am sure, sooner or later, on ones evolutionary path, which includes ones spiritual evolution; at some point, if it has not happened already, ones soul brings about the circumstances in ones life and if not this one, then one to follow, where the attention is turned inward in a state of quiet meditative contemplation - for no other reason than faith in the correctness of this action. Shortly thereafter one has all the proof they need - but it will only be for that individual.

I believe that what I have said here is true for any seeker who reads this that has not yet actively attempted to meditate and start on the inner path in a concious manner.

Hi Anchor,

Welcome to the debate.

It would be very conceited and irresponsible of me to not test a hypothesis even at an individual level and yes I have tried it. Nothing happened. But then, people say, oh, you weren’t doing it properly. I admit I haven’t gone to meditation workshops and haven’t invested as much energy in it as others have so rather than do that, a bit of research was the order of the day.

It turns out that a lot of people, the majority it seems, have also tried and failed to come away with anything remotely resembling the ends one is supposed to reach. But where I get a little bit annoyed is when those who hold dearly to the idea of meditation start to give us reasons why we failed. Here are some of them:

1. Ignorance about real meaning of meditation.
2. Lack of patience
3. Expecting too much
4. Not enough time

I know for a fact that eastern philosophies carry a great deal of weight in western culture because it is mysterious, looks calm, promises enormous therapeutic benefits, makes one into a better person, puts one at ease with oneself, helps us to be at one with the universe and I could go on. Who wouldn’t be attracted to all that in midst of the actual reality we have to face day in day out; of death, disease and boredom?

So I can see the attraction. But then I could get a similar set of benefits from a devout Muslim, Christian, Jew, Sikh, Shintoist, and any other religion or cult that is out there.

It is the insistence that the practice of meditation and the attainment of enlightenment (nirvana) which has its roots in a religion called Buddhism, is somehow not a religion or beyond religion because we have decided religion “per se” is a bad thing.

If I want to follow a religion, I might as well pick one randomly and then defend it to death because I have adopted something that I think is better than all the others and is the true “path”. That, to me, is the real “bollocks”, to use your word, in all of this.

[markpierre]

Wow, it's a debate.

I wish could meditate. After 30 years of trying and worrying about not trying, I still just fall right to sleep. The wise thing might be to just admit that it's not something I'm going to do.

But I think I'm doing alright just staying engaged with what's already there in front of me, showing me what I need to see. Hope that doesn't come back to bite me on the @ss.

[Anchor]

It would be very conceited and irresponsible of me to not test a hypothesis even at an individual level and yes I have tried it. Nothing happened. But then, people say, oh, you weren’t doing it properly. I admit I haven’t gone to meditation workshops and haven’t invested as much energy in it as others have so rather than do that, a bit of research was the order of the day.

It turns out that a lot of people, the majority it seems, have also tried and failed to come away with anything remotely resembling the ends one is supposed to reach. But where I get a little bit annoyed is when those who hold dearly to the idea of meditation start to give us reasons why we failed. Here are some of them:

1. Ignorance about real meaning of meditation.
2. Lack of patience
3. Expecting too much
4. Not enough time

How would they know that?


I know for a fact that eastern philosophies carry a great deal of weight in western culture because it is mysterious, looks calm, promises enormous therapeutic benefits, makes one into a better person, puts one at ease with oneself, helps us to be at one with the universe and I could go on. Who wouldn’t be attracted to all that in midst of the actual reality we have to face day in day out; of death, disease and boredom?

What you say is true, some people will do anything for an escape. Moreover, I can't prove that anything I have said to you is not made up and deluded nonsense.

I do however stand by everything I said in the preceding post.


I could get a similar set of benefits from a devout Muslim, Christian, Jew, Sikh, Shintoist, and any other religion or cult that is out there.

Indeed you could, there is a good chance that whatever branch you were to hypothetically choose or settle on, would eventually re-introduce you to the concept of meditation and encourage its practise :)

[Jenci]

Bollinger,

it sounds very much to me like you would like a recipe or instruction manual - complete with worked examples and proof - preferably peer reviewed!

For some things such instructions do exist.

Meditation is not one of those things.

Meditation is different for each person that practises - in technique and it what exactly happens. Most people who meditate and share there experiences find a lot of common ground, but also a lot of unique differences.

And you will never know any of it until you try. Until then those people on this site who speak about meditation could be talking complete bollocks.

Do I hear this? "Why should I try? - What proof do you have for me that I wont be wasting my time?"

Last first, I have no proof, all I can do is tell you about my experiences. Its all anyone can do in this reality - where we have to map concepts and experiences to fallible words.

I don't think you actually need a reason to meditate, it kind of just happens. It might be an idea you get to do it, or some experimentation. Rarely is it scientific! For me it was a leap of faith, it just felt like the right thing to do - and it was (for me).

I am sure, sooner or later, on ones evolutionary path, which includes ones spiritual evolution; at some point, if it has not happened already, ones soul brings about the circumstances in ones life and if not this one, then one to follow, where the attention is turned inward in a state of quiet meditative contemplation - for no other reason than faith in the correctness of this action. Shortly thereafter one has all the proof they need - but it will only be for that individual.

I believe that what I have said here is true for any seeker who reads this that has not yet actively attempted to meditate and start on the inner path in a concious manner.

Hi Anchor,

Welcome to the debate.

It would be very conceited and irresponsible of me to not test a hypothesis even at an individual level and yes I have tried it. Nothing happened. But then, people say, oh, you weren’t doing it properly. I admit I haven’t gone to meditation workshops and haven’t invested as much energy in it as others have so rather than do that, a bit of research was the order of the day.

It turns out that a lot of people, the majority it seems, have also tried and failed to come away with anything remotely resembling the ends one is supposed to reach. But where I get a little bit annoyed is when those who hold dearly to the idea of meditation start to give us reasons why we failed. Here are some of them:

1. Ignorance about real meaning of meditation.
2. Lack of patience
3. Expecting too much
4. Not enough time

I know for a fact that eastern philosophies carry a great deal of weight in western culture because it is mysterious, looks calm, promises enormous therapeutic benefits, makes one into a better person, puts one at ease with oneself, helps us to be at one with the universe and I could go on. Who wouldn’t be attracted to all that in midst of the actual reality we have to face day in day out; of death, disease and boredom?

So I can see the attraction. But then I could get a similar set of benefits from a devout Muslim, Christian, Jew, Sikh, Shintoist, and any other religion or cult that is out there.

It is the insistence that the practice of meditation and the attainment of enlightenment (nirvana) which has its roots in a religion called Buddhism, is somehow not a religion or beyond religion because we have decided religion “per se” is a bad thing.

If I want to follow a religion, I might as well pick one randomly and then defend it to death because I have adopted something that I think is better than all the others and is the true “path”. That, to me, is the real “bollocks”, to use your word, in all of this.

Hi Bollinger,

Thank you for raising some very interesting points in this thread.

You are right there are lots of people who come away from meditation failing to get it and certainly failing to get anywhere near enlightenment. I might add here the controversial view that meditation could be one thing which is preventing enlightenment happening.

I may not win the popular vote on this but it makes sense to me. Enlightenment is realisation of our true nature which is Being - suggesting we have to do something to be....to me is understandable why it doesn't work for some. Meditation was not necessary for me to awaken and I know that applies to other people as well.

Having said that meditation is the gateway to enlightenment for many. Not only that, it may provide many other benefits and help people live more accepting, peaceful lives and in turn promote the best physical health.

I can see both ways as being equally valid.

To meditate or not is for the individual. I suggest following your heart. If it is something you feel compelled to do, there are plenty of methods to use to help you. But if you are not compelled to do it, and are seeking enlightenment, then explore teachings without the emphasis on meditation.

As to enlightenment itself, in some ways I wish everyone could wake up and realise their true natures but the process for me along this path has been difficult, painful, frightening and destructive. I can understand why people may not want to go through that. Looking back now on what I went through I can laugh at it - it was nothing - but at the time it was hell. Being "caught in the tiger's mouth" is just that.

If we are all one consciousness, having a human experience, then it makes sense collectively that we experience the full spectrum - from being completely identified with the mind/body to full enlightenment and every level between the two along the way. I would say we are all exactly where we are meant to be right now.

As far as religion is concerned, religion is a signpost pointing towards what we are talking about - call it Enlightenment, God or whatever. The religions point people in the right direction, although some of them may sadly, point them the wrong way. There's nothing wrong with religion provided it is just seen as the pointer or signpost but what we are actually talking about is beyond the religion.

I say it is beyond because what we talk about is primary to all other things and therefore anything which talks about it, is secondary - therefore, it cannot be IT.

Jeanette

[Anchor]

I may not win the popular vote on this but it makes sense to me. Enlightenment is realisation of our true nature which is Being - suggesting we have to do something to be....to me is understandable why it doesn't work for some. Meditation was not necessary for me to awaken and I know that applies to other people as well.

Well, I cant say awakening is anything like completed enlightenment.

I have been "awakened", I would hardly claim a state of "enlightenment".

Lots of people I know don't meditate until after they awaken to the nature of the illusion, and then along the way they find meditation as a great tool for exploring the notion further - since the answers are inside, so one goes inside to seek them out.

I concur absolutely with the follow your heart idea.

John..

[Bollinger]

Thank you both Jenci and Anchor for articulating so well your thoughts and views in this debate and of course I fully understand and respect the many different avenues to which inevitably this subject may lead. I have no particular problem with anything you have both said and it is refreshing to hear and absorb the various nuances that are out there.

If I was to put it in a nutshell, what perturbs me most about this and any issue (mainstream or otherwise) is that I feel it is time for us (humanity as a whole) to start climbing out of the abyss we've been falling into for centuries now. It is obvious and plain for all to see that our disposition at this juncture leaves a great deal to be desired and it seems every pursuit of mankind either has a price tag attached to it or it is done for the sake of the individual or a small number of people. It is time for the “good news” to extend and expand and envelope the whole planet. We can't afford to talk about just "us" or "them" any more. It has to involve "all" in order to bring any meaning to this thing we call life.

Any religion, cult, practice, way of life, paradigm we create always seems to involve a “subset”, never the whole. Some can meditate, most can’t. Some can see it, most can’t. Some have wealth, most don’t.

This dualistic imbalance that exists is the bane of all that is negative in our world and what I would like to see in any present or future paradigm is inclusion rather than exclusion. That to me is the key. I’m not naïve enough to assume it is all easy to do but anything less, for me at any rate, is simply not good enough.

[Jenci]

I may not win the popular vote on this but it makes sense to me. Enlightenment is realisation of our true nature which is Being - suggesting we have to do something to be....to me is understandable why it doesn't work for some. Meditation was not necessary for me to awaken and I know that applies to other people as well.

Well, I cant say awakening is anything like completed enlightenment.

I have been "awakened", I would hardly claim a state of "enlightenment".

Lots of people I know don't meditate until after they awaken to the nature of the illusion, and then along the way they find meditation as a great tool for exploring the notion further - since the answers are inside, so one goes inside to seek them out.

I concur absolutely with the follow your heart idea.

John..

Hi John,

I agree that awakening is not the same as complete enlightenment. I use the term 'awakening' to refer to my experience because I don't consider myself to be in a state of enlightenment....yet.......maybe next week ;)

Although the awakening itself has more clarity and has been experienced more deeply and with more permanence as time has gone by.

Now I am talking about a changing state, which is not it either - it's certainly not easy putting all of this into words.

Jeanette

[Jenci]

Any religion, cult, practice, way of life, paradigm we create always seems to involve a “subset”, never the whole. Some can meditate, most can’t. Some can see it, most can’t. Some have wealth, most don’t.

This dualistic imbalance that exists is the bane of all that is negative in our world and what I would like to see in any present or future paradigm is inclusion rather than exclusion. That to me is the key. I’m not naïve enough to assume it is all easy to do but anything less, for me at any rate, is simply not good enough.

Hi Bollinger,

I agree this exclusivity has kept us stuck for a very long time. I think things are changing, even in terms of teaching of enlightenment - what was only available to only a few say about 30 years ago, is now more widely available and more people teaching outside of the traditions, making it ever more accessible to a wider population.

I would say that just as people have different bodies and faces, then we are going to have different levels of consciousness but that doesn't have to mean that we will continue to be exclusive. I think there are many, many awake or enlightened people now who open their arms to the whole of humanity, regardless of how conscious they are - they are all inclusive.

I think you have also raised a very important point, in that even talking about this topic we can create an air of exclusivity and regardless of intent, that can be dis-empowering and discouraging and keep people locked in the current paradigm.

I take on board your points - it's something to think about :)

Jeanette

[Carmody]

To continue this directed conversation:

once again, Bollinger, you fail to understand the basic concepts and once again, you alone block yourself from this realization. The more you squint, intellectually..the more it slips away.

Both particle and wave, my friend. You squint hard to bring the particle into some form of resolution and in that act... throw away the complete co-junctive wave function. You summarily throw away 50% of the equation which in the context of workable directions and answers, constitutes far more than 50% of access to answers and connected structures.

For example, you don't understand the reasoning and direction in the words I use...and your 'ultimate' form of intellectual squeeze and squinting to attempt to 'pull reason' from it.

You miss the point entirely. Talking ab out jumping off a cliff has, in the end, nothing to do with the act of jumping off it.

Pure intellectualism is only 50% of your mind and it's capacity. The answer will never come out of pure intellectualism. Not a chance. never. no matter how humane a such dicsussion may be in orientation or communication.

It will come to someone who is balanced in their mind, so that both hemispheres are in use, and both-to a high level. This is critical. and it is that 50% of the brain that you seem to be working hard to avoid using, as that use (of the untapped half) will void much of what you seem to think as being the sum total of the world. the world of realism and intellectualism.

I'm done with this. I've tried often enough that I will waste no more time with this.

The handicap is you and your mind my friend, nothing more.

The world, the universe, whatever... does not hold people back. People hold themselves back.

[Bollinger]

To continue this directed conversation:

once again, Bollinger, you fail to understand the basic concepts and once again, you alone block yourself from this realization. The more you squint, intellectually..the more it slips away.

Both particle and wave, my friend. You squint hard to bring the particle into some form of resolution and in that act... throw away the complete co-junctive wave function. You summarily throw away 50% of the equation which in the context of workable directions and answers, constitutes far more than 50% of access to answers and connected structures.

For example, you don't understand the reasoning and direction in the words I use...and your 'ultimate' form of intellectual squeeze and squinting to attempt to 'pull reason' from it.

You miss the point entirely. Talking ab out jumping off a cliff has, in the end, nothing to do with the act of jumping off it.

Pure intellectualism is only 50% of your mind and it's capacity. The answer will never come out of pure intellectualism. Not a chance. never. no matter how humane a such dicsussion may be in orientation or communication.

It will come to someone who is balanced in their mind, so that both hemispheres are in use, and both-to a high level. This is critical. and it is that 50% of the brain that you seem to be working hard to avoid using, as that use (of the untapped half) will void much of what you seem to think as being the sum total of the world. the world of realism and intellectualism.

I'm done with this. I've tried often enough that I will waste no more time with this.

The handicap is you and your mind my friend, nothing more.

The world, the universe, whatever... does not hold people back. People hold themselves back.

This is what happens when one's religion completely and utterly overtakes their whole outlook on life and all there is in it. So much so that anyone who questions the ideas and refuses to toe the line becomes a heretic. Yours is of a particularly virulent form.

[Tony]

Dear Bollinger

You sound angry and frustrated...and so you should be. And so am I.
I totally agree with you.
However, all sentient beings have free choice and they will come at self-realisation in their own time.
Everyone's present was created by their past: it's not a judgement, it's a fact. Cause and outcome. We all have to deal with what we have and where we are.
I have always been aware that, over the 45 years I've spent going to teachings, they have been full of white, middle-class people who can afford to be interested. So I really am with you on a lot of what you say.
The reason I write on this forum is to try and give more people access to what I have been taught, and to share it more.
I wish I could do more about everything.
One of the problems with this virtual world of internet communication is that you don't know what kind of mind you are dealing with, and it takes time to build up a rapport with people.
I can't even begin to explain how sad I feel about the whole world situation and how spiritually smug many practitioners seem to be. We all have to try and do what we feel is helpful, and hope our intentions are as pure as possible.
It's not easy finding a balance between trying to raise people's aspirations, while at the same time making them aware of self-deception. Sometimes it seems one is making a sweet and sour sauce...
I see nothing wrong with negative emotions as they can be seen as pure wisdom. We just have to be mindful of condemning others through our own frustrations. I'm not criticising – I feel exactly the same way, and have to deal with it every single day.
On a personal note, I am currently having to deal with a bit of 'hate mail': I have to transform into seeing that the person who is writing cares “enthusiastically” but their emotions have taken them over for the moment. A big part of spiritual work is transforming negative energy.

I wish you well. PM me if you want to chat further.

Tony

[Bollinger]

Dear Bollinger

You sound angry and frustrated...and so you should be. And so am I.
I totally agree with you.
However, all sentient beings have free choice and they will come at self-realisation in their own time.
Everyone's present was created by their past: it's not a judgement, it's a fact. Cause and outcome. We all have to deal with what we have and where we are.
I have always been aware that, over the 45 years I've spent going to teachings, they have been full of white, middle-class people who can afford to be interested. So I really am with you on a lot of what you say.
The reason I write on this forum is to try and give more people access to what I have been taught, and to share it more.
I wish I could do more about everything.
One of the problems with this virtual world of internet communication is that you don't know what kind of mind you are dealing with, and it takes time to build up a rapport with people.
I can't even begin to explain how sad I feel about the whole world situation and how spiritually smug many practitioners seem to be. We all have to try and do what we feel is helpful, and hope our intentions are as pure as possible.
It's not easy finding a balance between trying to raise people's aspirations, while at the same time making them aware of self-deception. Sometimes it seems one is making a sweet and sour sauce...
I see nothing wrong with negative emotions as they can be seen as pure wisdom. We just have to be mindful of condemning others through our own frustrations. I'm not criticising – I feel exactly the same way, and have to deal with it every single day.
On a personal note, I am currently having to deal with a bit of 'hate mail': I have to transform into seeing that the person who is writing cares “enthusiastically” but their emotions have taken them over for the moment. A big part of spiritual work is transforming negative energy.

I wish you well. PM me if you want to chat further.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Thank you for trying to inject sanity into an otherwise “enlightenment gone mad” discussion with Carmody. If you detect frustration, the source of it is from having tried to put my point across in fifty different ways but the response is always the same: “the fault is with the questioner, he’s holding himself back, doesn’t understand, can’t see it, won’t see it, blah, blah, blah…” Those sentiments smack of religion because that’s what all devotees to a religion say. It doesn’t matter if the religion comes from inside you or the far-east, it is still a religion. Have you heard of the saying; many are called, few are chosen? Can there ever be a more useless and futile sentiment?

A catholic will say: in order to become a catholic you must receive the sacraments, you must be baptised, you must believe in the resurrection, pray to God and a lot of other things besides. This formula, (you must do x and y to become z), is prevalent in all religions. That’s all well and good. But what if you cannot do x and y? That is why I brought in the idea of inclusion and exclusion. It seems this world is only for those who can and not for those who can’t and it nearly always works out that those in the “can” group are in the minority, sometimes a very tiny minority.

In order to answer the question about whether or not enlightenment is the only way, first one has to nail down a universal definition for it (which we can’t) and then embark upon a period of study and perhaps practise some form of meditation. There are a lot of people, by far the huge majority, who simply cannot do that, for whatever reason. This isn’t debatable, it is a fact!

So despite commendable efforts from your good self and a lot of other people to bring these teachings to our table, you have to admit that it will forever remain without the reach of most. It isn’t a reason for not pursuing it at an individual level, if that is what anyone wants to do, but clearly it isn’t the answer to the ever-increasing suffering that is present in our world with an ever-growing population.

I am sorry that you are receiving hate mail from people. I would guess you’re navigating through the minefield of human emotions which is never an easy course.

Best wishes to you.

Bollinger

[Tony]

Dear Bollinger,

The way I see it, is that we all have what is called a karmic connection to something here on earth.
Meaning having a propensity towards certain subjects. We have different values of what we feel is most important.
So if one's house is on fire, what is the first thing you grab hold of?

Mine would be all my notes on teachings! Though I know the real information is already in my mind and heart.

This world is elitist, everyone wants to 'better' themselves, or so they are led to believe.
And that is an extremely difficult problem to resolve.

Kathie and I have recently come back from Ecuador. The indigenous people are quite happy with their poor lot.
But the big corporations have already moved in to show them a 'better' life, with shiny new shopping malls,
and pictures of the American (dream) Good life. So their values are changing.

In Ecuador peasant people seem quite content, they work with their hands and donkeys.
It is a simple life, and I wish to join. But now the gringos are moving in, and there is some resentment.

Poor, rich...it is all orchestrated! That class system is meant to divide people.

I think Buddhism is elitist, you need money to go to teachings.
I was once turned away because I could not afford to attend, and was very shocked.
But life or intention has a way of sorting things out.

It is all about personal intention.
I think there is a huge difference between religious people and practitioner.
The religious types seem mechanical and follow dogma, they use it as a plaster over a wound.
A practitioner rips the plaster off to see what is going on.

There is too much fear and guilt around....it is a controlling mechanism.

All the best,
Tony