Anunnaki, Jesus and NLP (split from another thread)

[RedeZra]

[Mod-edit: The first 44 posts of this thread were originally posted to the thread An examination of the Anunnaki and the planet Nibiru (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37532-An-examination-of-the-Anunnaki-and-the-planet-Nibiru/). These posts were split off to this separate to avoid derailing their original thread. See further my Post #45 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37709-Anunnaki-Jesus-and-NLP--split-from-another-thread-&p=391865&viewfull=1#post391865), below. -- Paul.]

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If we don't at least produce the evidence in the first place, then we can make up anything we like as we go along and then just say "Oh well, the establishment buried it."

We have to stay open-minded, of course. But not so much that our brains fall out.



look at my link above and see the evidence

if you're not impressed then look into it or drop the notion

like you've dropped the Bible without verification


it's not a secret that all the cultures of the world share stories about giants

who do you think built Stonehedge ?

[Ishtar]

Yes, of course, that is one of the theories about Stonehenge (and the millions of other megalithic sites scattered worldwide), because no-one could figure out how on Earth the stones could have been lifted into position otherwise, and so the Megalithic Age, when these huge monuments were built, was dubbed The Age of the Giants.

However, we now know that, in the case of some of them, like the pyramids, the stones were made of agglomerated materials which were poured into moulds in situ, like concrete. So not so much heavy lifting and hauling was required. In the case of others, like Stonehenge, where the stones came from Wales, it would have easy to move them down the leylines and we know that our early ancestors were skilled in geomancy.

I did look at your thread, but I didn't see any evidence there ~ just speculation and instances of a few tall people who once lived who were no taller than people alive today. People of 8 feet plus tall while not being common, are also not that rare. There's a guy in the Ukraine, name of Leonid Stadnyk, who's over 8 feet all, and several others worldwide who are registered as being over 7 feet tall There's probably plenty more who haven't registered themselves. These are not what I would call 'giants'. And if you're talking about moving huge megalithic stones, you'd need to be more than just a couple of feet taller than others to achieve it.

There was a Giant of Castelnau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_of_Castelnau), at over 11 feet high ... now that's getting closer to what I'd call a giant... but still not really.

List of tallest people from Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_people)

I've given plenty of verification for why the Bible and other sacred texts were not understood to be literally true by our ancestors, and if you go back and read my posts carefully, you will find it.

The verification I asked for was of 'giants' skeletons being hidden in the Smithsonian. You've been unable to provide this.

[RedeZra]

In the case of others, like Stonehenge, where the stones came from Wales, it would have easy to move them down the leylines and we know that our early ancestors were skilled in geomancy.

Geomancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomancy)is not about moving several tons of stones but a method of divination that interprets markings on the ground or the patterns formed by tossed handfuls of soil rocks or sand

i have never seen tons of stone move down the leylines with ease so it sounds implausible to me

compared to the theory of giants which after all is supported by culture




I've given plenty of verification for why the Bible and other sacred texts were not understood to be literally true by our ancestors, and if you go back and read my posts carefully, you will find it.

you have presented personal opinions about the veracity of the Bible which is not the same as verification





The verification I asked for was of 'giants' skeletons being hidden in the Smithsonian. You've been unable to provide this.

i don't have the keys to Smithsonian cellars

and you just have to spend an evening investigating giants on the net

to align in agreement with me

that there were giants in the earth in those days

[Ishtar]

The verification that our ancestors read the sacred texts as allegory and metaphor can be found in the post about Philo of Alexandria.

I practice geomancy and it includes working with the leylines.

I don't have an evening to spend on the internet chasing something that I don't believe in, so shall we just agree to differ?

[RedeZra]

i am behind you Ishtar in your assessment of Sitchin injecting conjecture into the Sumerian tablets and that Nibiru is a city and not a planet

but the Anunnaki according to the tablets are flesh and blood creatures and probably the Nephilim of the Bible

huge hybrids between spirits and humans

and i'm guessing that those black haired creatures the Anunnaki genetically engineered are not humans but Yeti or Sasquatch like Star Wars Chewbacca

[Ishtar]

I started this thread with the idea of laying out and examining what tangible evidence we have for the Anunnaki existing given that the person who originally told us about them, Sitchin, lied.

You believe that they existed because you read mythology as literal history. I don't accept that stories contained in mythology are literally true and believe that they served another purpose.

And so we'll never agree on this.

As I said, let's shake hands and agree to differ.... before we bore everyone to death. :blabla:

[RedeZra]

So this is how the spirits became 'gods' and then eventually the gods became 'God' and Jesus the mythical Sun God became Jesus the real Son of God.



spirits or gods or elohim are still venerated and worshipped within inner elite circles and secret groves

the elite is in league with legions of spirits who fell from grace of the Source of spirits or God or Elohim


so Mystery Babylon is still the religion of the elite and so the world




Something clicked within me last year, and I suddenly saw that Jesus the son of god was a veiled reference to a sun god....

And, looking at the beauty of the sun during sunrise, I could see a lot worse things to worship.....

that was a click of error ; )

Jesus is the Creator of the sun as well as your soul

[Ishtar]

The Elite, as you call them, could never access the benevolent and loving spirits of the Anunakki much less be in league with them. These spirits are pure heavenly beings of Light and can only be perceived through a higher consciousness, which is Love, unconditional Love. They only respond to Unconditional Love. There is no other way through that Gate and there never will be.

However, I know and respect that your religion has trained you to think differently but unless you are going to be open to a new idea, you will become a troll in this thread. That's why I suggested we shake hands and agree to differ, in the same way that if you opened up a thread on Christianity, I would stay out of it.

I would ask you again to honour that agreement.

[Ria]

Redezra this is to much of a broad stroke. this is like saying I am in league, with any thing negative, just because I live in the UK.

[RedeZra]

I would ask you again to honour that agreement.

why would i be quiet when you miss the mark about Jesus ?

it's better for you not to mention Jesus if you don't want me to butt in



Redezra this is to much of a broad stroke. this is like saying I am in league, with any thing negative, just because I live in the UK.

i'm saying the inner elite the illuminati is in league with spirits who fell from grace

[Ria]

Redezra, it dose look like you are being argumentative, for argument sake. peace

[BestLion]

Ishtar, I haven't checked this thread for a few days and it has grown. Also you added many new things I didn't even know of the Annunaki. I certainly agree with you on aliens and beings, being not ET but ED. My study of ancient cultures and civilizations also have pointed me in that direction also.
I do have a problem with Sitcens 'Intervention theory" He uses for this pictures from cylinder seals to make his conclusion, and 1 or 2 very old hard to read Sumerian tablets.

Quote Posted by Ishtar (here)
I would ask you again to honour that agreement.
why would i be quiet when you miss the mark about Jesus ?

it's better for you not to mention Jesus if you don't want me to butt in
Please respect us and take your Jesus stuff elsewhere. i was in that faith for a few year myself.a nd really have a sour taste for it. Please do not destroy a good thread with this rubbish!

[Unified Serenity]

Redezra, it dose look like you are being argumentative, for argument sake. peace

Ria,

By all means believe what you want, but when you say someone is coming in argumentative for arguments sake and disgregard this entire passage Ishtar shared:


Well, no-one’s quite sure how it happened, but happen it did. A small clique of those people who attended the Lesser Mysteries — or at least knew the stories that were told and performed at them — decided that they must be true, that the Sun god who had died and risen again, three days later, had been a real person who had once lived. Not only that, they also believed that this real dying and resurrecting godman was born in Nazareth thousands of years after the first one of these plays was ever performed.

Now most people at the time, on hearing this, were vastly amused and some of the philosophy schools in Rome even felt a bit sorry for this group. For one thing, they knew that ‘Nazarene’ was a Judaic rendering in metaphor for the Indian Naga or Nagerene, wise serpent teacher. But still, for hundreds of years, it stayed that way, with the small cult that believed in a real historical dying and resurrecting godman being regarded by everyone else as a harmless bunch of eccentrics who had misunderstood the metaphorical teachings. And this is exactly how it would have stayed if it hadn’t been for a power hungry emperor called Constantine....

So this is how the spirits became 'gods' and then eventually the gods became 'God' and Jesus the mythical Sun God became Jesus the real Son of God.



You seem to be missing a major bit of information that is begging for rebuttal. Now, RedEzra and I do not see eye to eye on much biblically, but one thing for certain that he and I do see eye to eye on is that Jesus was not some mythical character drummed up by some wackos with a little bit of knowledge. This all happened so long ago, there is little to show for proof beyond words written and found. How very crafty of the light bringer to throw this sort of information into the mix. Of course the idea of the Sun God was put into play. Of course it marries nicely with Christianity after all it was subverted by the very people of Babylon (Elites) to make sure it could be subverted by their boy Saul and Constantine! Now, 2000 years later all this information comes out to confuse the masses seeking truth to erode the facts further to set up once again the one world religion under the Babylonian system just as we were warned it would. I think I have more work to do because the evidence is in the Stars, and it is so simple a child can understand it.

Serenity

[Ishtar]

Unified Serenity,

What you've just mounted is called an ad hominem attack because you're attacking me, not the argument, by making unsupported accusations about the motives behind the narrative I've provided which imply I'm trying somehow to deceive or just making it all up, whereas I've come to my views honestly through decades of long hard study.

I don't want to take this thread off course by discussing the historicity of Jesus, but I'm satisfied that he never existed as a real historical character through research and discovering there is no evidence for his life, and also by contacting him as a spirit. For that reason, I am entitled to come to a different view without being considered evil or having been manipulated into my views by an evil regime, and so your accusations are without foundation and, in fact, unjust and unfair.

[Unified Serenity]

Ishtar, I haven't checked this thread for a few days and it has grown. Also you added many new things I didn't even know of the Annunaki. I certainly agree with you on aliens and beings, being not ET but ED. My study of ancient cultures and civilizations also have pointed me in that direction also.
I do have a problem with Sitcens 'Intervention theory" He uses for this pictures from cylinder seals to make his conclusion, and 1 or 2 very old hard to read Sumerian tablets.

Quote Posted by Ishtar (here)
I would ask you again to honour that agreement.
why would i be quiet when you miss the mark about Jesus ?

it's better for you not to mention Jesus if you don't want me to butt in
Please respect us and take your Jesus stuff elsewhere. i was in that faith for a few year myself.a nd really have a sour taste for it. Please do not destroy a good thread with this rubbish!

With all due respect that was introduced by the OP, not RedEzra. There is much to dissect and lots of NLP tricks were played in that particular post I quoted. I will be more than happy to start a new thread, but neither Red nor I brought up Christianity. I will simply say very clearly right now, that making these claims as fact that Ishtar does and peppering her words implying "everyone knows this" , ridicule, shame and pity concepts for anyone who bought into the Christian message does not make her words true, and in fact I will go so far as to say that this is more of the Religion of Ascension and someone is playing the High Priestess role of it nicely. There are HPS' of the Babylonian faith, and Lucifer is no idiot. Put him into whatever god name you want, his message is easy to spot. His tactics have worked for many millenia, and he is fully aware of the Divine Plan. Now, I really need to get back to my work.

regards,


Serenity

[Ishtar]

:p I'm quite flattered that Unified Serenity thinks I'm using NLP tricks. Perhaps I should use a few? ;)

I'm a former journalist so I write like a story teller, that's all. I know how to engage an audience ... and if that's a sin, you can hang me now. :happy:

I've had to decant a lot of research from my head into this thread and I could just put everything up here like a dry academic paper, but I don't think anyone would want to read it.

Anyway, as my guru used to say, "If I woke up one morning to find that all my enemies had disappeared, I'd wonder what I was doing wrong."

So carry on Unified Serenity ...do your worst! :rain:

[Ria]

The dry academic style would send me to sleep, so don't change, in this regard. I almost do not wont to mention this, as it could be blow-en all out of pre-portion. keep Sai Baba for another thread, as he is quit controversial.

[Khaleesi]

:p I'm quite flattered that Unified Serenity thinks I'm using NLP tricks. Perhaps I should use a few? ;)

I'm a former journalist so I write like a story teller, that's all. I know how to engage an audience ... and if that's a sin, you can hang me now. :happy:

I've had to decant a lot of research from my head into this thread and I could just put everything up here like a dry academic paper, but I don't think anyone would want to read it.

Anyway, as my guru Sai Baba used to say, "If I woke up one morning to find that all my enemies had disappeared, I'd wonder what I was doing wrong."

So carry on Unified Serenity ...do your worst! :rain:

I'll show you specifically where NLP was used.

Quoting Ishtar:

"Well, no-one’s quite sure how it happened, but happen it did." Notice the statement of fact. Well, we all know you can't argue with facts, right? Sarcasm intended.

"Now most people at the time, on hearing this, were vastly amused" Ridicule and pity.

"with the small cult that believed in a real historical dying and resurrecting godman being regarded by everyone else as a harmless bunch of eccentrics" Notice the wording here. Small cult, indicating only a few a few people that were deluded/tricked. This is more fully backed up by following up with the word eccentrics denoting crazy and deluded.

So Ishtar, if you didn't use NLP, who is speaking through you?

[Ishtar]

:p I'm quite flattered that Unified Serenity thinks I'm using NLP tricks. Perhaps I should use a few? ;)

I'm a former journalist so I write like a story teller, that's all. I know how to engage an audience ... and if that's a sin, you can hang me now. :happy:

I've had to decant a lot of research from my head into this thread and I could just put everything up here like a dry academic paper, but I don't think anyone would want to read it.

Anyway, as my guru Sai Baba used to say, "If I woke up one morning to find that all my enemies had disappeared, I'd wonder what I was doing wrong."

So carry on Unified Serenity ...do your worst! :rain:

I'll show you specifically where NLP was used.

Quoting Ishtar:

"Well, no-one’s quite sure how it happened, but happen it did." Notice the statement of fact. Well, we all know you can't argue with facts, right? Sarcasm intended.

"Now most people at the time, on hearing this, were vastly amused" Ridicule and pity.

"with the small cult that believed in a real historical dying and resurrecting godman being regarded by everyone else as a harmless bunch of eccentrics" Notice the wording here. Small cult, indicating only a few a few people that were deluded/tricked. This is more fully backed up by following up with the word eccentrics denoting crazy and deluded.

So Ishtar, if you didn't use NLP, who is speaking through you?

I assure you that it was entirely unintentional. I was trained to write in this way, and it's called 'conversational writing' and it's been used by storytellers forever and a day. . I find that I prefer to engage with people in that way on a discussion forum, because it's more chatty and friendly and frankly, I'd get bored writing otherwise. I'm here to engage with people, not to show off what I know.

I haven't been trained in NLP but I do know about it because it's used as a therapy these days, and I write for a website called The Therapy Book, in which I was asked to write an article about NLP therapy. But that was only a few weeks ago .. and I didn't know about until then. Whereas, what you quoted was written ages ago, probably more than a year ago, when I'd never even heard of NLP.

OKay, sooooooooooooo.... while we here, does anyone else want to mount a personal attack? :yawn: Or can we get back to the issues?

[9eagle9]

Okay. Well if you don't go back and re-frame for NLP I suspect someone else will do it for you. So know you have a choice.

Ishtar what is the goal here? What is all this time and investment in past story, and past history, and past identification and as you said, away from dry academia and story telling, supposed to doing in the present? What is this supposed to be doing for people. How is it serving people? What is all of this going to do for them NOW?

[Khaleesi]

Ishtar,

That was not a personal attack. I simply quoted you and pointed to the words that show a very clever use of NLP.

[Ria]

Talk about paranoid drama making mountains out of mole hills. We are talking about archaeology and one person views. Do you really think this discussion can amount to some kind of global up rising that merits a secret top notch NLP person to front this, Plus you can verify the references

[Khaleesi]

Talk about paranoid drama making mountains out of mole hills. We are talking about archaeology and one person views. Do you really think this discussion can amount to some kind of global up rising that merits a secret top notch NLP person to front this, Plus you can verify the references

Ahhh another use of NLP! Bringing in the word paranoid. Very good.

[Ria]

I decided to ask a friend, who is an NLP practitioner and teacher, to look at Ishtar thread and give me her view. The gist of what she said is that there was no reason to think Ishtar was using NLP or any subterfuge.

[Khaleesi]

I decided to ask a friend, who is an NLP practitioner and teacher, to look at Ishtar thread and give me her view. The gist of what she said is that there was no reason to think Ishtar was using NLP or any subterfuge.

Could you please give us the name of this expert or have them come on personally?

[modwiz]

Yikes! Somebody let the cats out. :whistle:

[Ishtar]

Of course it's attacking me personally to say I'm deliberately using NLP, Khaleesi. That would be a very manipulative thing to do. How could it be otherwise? And now we're descending into farce if we're having to ask an NLP expert to come on here to verify that I'm not using NLP. This is ridiculous.

Why do so many interesting threads on Project Avalon descend into personal attacks? It's such a shame....

You may be aware that this is one of the main tools used by the powers-that-be to discredit theories they can't disprove. Archaeologists that I work with come up against it often, that the establishment tries to attack the person when their ideas or theories don't fit in with their agenda. They attack the person because they're unable and incapable of attacking the ideas and proving them to be wrong. This is known as an ad hominen attack.


An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.[1] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy.

It is fallacy because if I was using NLP, you ought to be able to destroy my argument anyway by using facts. However, you haven't done that ... probably because you can't. So you're attacking me personally... as did Unified Serenity.

I've been having some great conversations on here with people that have allowed me also to expand my own awareness around these issues. I'm not telling people what to think. I'm saying what I think and why .... and opening myself to further discussion on the issues raised. I have had at least one life-changing realisation since opening this thread because of others' contributions and I'm grateful for that... very grateful.

So I would ask anyone who's not enjoying this thread, or finds it meaningless, for whatever reason, to leave and go to threads that they will enjoy because it's not fair to disrupt it for everyone else. Shame on you.

[Ria]

Khaleesi
I would not dream of giving out her information here.
What about you, what are your qualifications, What level of training if any in NLP do you have.
Why are you trying to derail this thread?

[BestLion]

What does the Annunaki have to do with NLP? This thread is about the Annunaki and Niburu..If I want to read about NLP I'll google that or find it here in a thread..lets stay on topic.

[Ishtar]

Guys, I suggest we just ignore the interference and just carry on with our discussion.

[Khaleesi]

Khaleesi
I would not dream of giving out her information here.
What about you, what are your qualifications, What level of training if any in NLP do you have.
Why are you trying to derail this thread?


Okay, let's get to the point here. I am not trying to derail the thread. NLP was brought up on this thread because it is being used on this thread. Of course you will not put her info here Ria. I also said you could have her come here herself. So, you have an expert that you have consulted but will not give us access to this expert so that we can ask her specific questions? I see. I think when you relay someone else thoughts without them personally verifying the info it is called heresay.

[Ria]

Can we do the Jesus stuff on another thread as there seems to be about half a dozen different Jesus running around.

[Khaleesi]

Can we do the Jesus stuff on another thread as there seems to be about half a dozen different Jesus running around.

I believe if you review the posts, Ishtar brought up Jesus first. It is germane to the subject at hand by her very own post.

[MMA_Fan]

Khaleesi
I would not dream of giving out her information here.
What about you, what are your qualifications, What level of training if any in NLP do you have.
Why are you trying to derail this thread?


Okay, let's get to the point here. I am not trying to derail the thread. NLP was brought up on this thread because it is being used on this thread. Of course you will not put her info here Ria. I also said you could have her come here herself. So, you have an expert that you have consulted but will not give us access to this expert so that we can ask her specific questions? I see. I think when you relay someone else thoughts without them personally verifying the info it is called heresay.

I don't see why it matters. There is no evidence to suggest (no pun intended) that NLP is effective. Especially not on a forum in one or two posts:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mentserv.html

Any proven mind control techniques like MKULTRA or Project Monarch that I have read about involve psychotropics, hypnosis, torture etc.

Edit: Sorry about helping taking this thread off topic with the above and my Jesus post. ;)

[Ishtar]

Can we do the Jesus stuff on another thread as there seems to be about half a dozen different Jesus running around.

I believe if you review the posts, Ishtar brought up Jesus first. It is germane to the subject at hand by her very own post.

So now you've failed to disrupt this thread over NLP, you're taking a different tack and trying it with the historicity of Jesus.

Please give a message from me to whichever psi-op outfit is running you: that they need to give you more training because I can see straight through your tactics.

[BestLion]

Can we do the Jesus stuff on another thread as there seems to be about half a dozen different Jesus running around.
I hope. I wish to destroy this faith completely! i very passionately hate this religion!

[Khaleesi]

Can we do the Jesus stuff on another thread as there seems to be about half a dozen different Jesus running around.

I believe if you review the posts, Ishtar brought up Jesus first. It is germane to the subject at hand by her very own post.

So now you've failed to disrupt this thread over NLP, you're taking a different tack and trying it with the historicity of Jesus.

Please give a message from me to whichever psi-op outfit is running you: that they need to give you more training because I can see straight through your tactics.

So since I am capable of seeing your use of NLP and seeing that you brought up Jesus first, I am being used by a psy-op outfit? Interesting.

[Ishtar]

I am aware of the world wide wisdom teachers and there traveling while ministering to the sick etc
Anu and what is the current perception of the Anunnaki are two compleatly different things, the name has been hijacked

Yes, and that is exactly my purpose in starting this thread, to explain how I think that is the case and also how I think it came about.

[Ria]

Now the hijackers, the Anunnaki who and what exactly are they?
are they an amalgam of disinformation?
A group that wonted to disguises who they were to gain control?
A mixture of the two?
4d enterties hijacking the bigest bully around by way of getting their jollies?

[Ishtar]

I think I answered all that in the last post, Ria.

The disinformation is created by men (and women) who're saying that the Anunakki are the bogey-men and they're coming to getcha!! ;)

[Ria]

I had not read your post then, I am of to bed, best wishes to all

[RedeZra]

Can we do the Jesus stuff on another thread as there seems to be about half a dozen different Jesus running around.
I hope. I wish to destroy this faith completely! i very passionately hate this religion!

pick a number and get in line behind satan

[RedeZra]

Anyway, as my guru used to say, "If I woke up one morning to find that all my enemies had disappeared, I'd wonder what I was doing wrong."


i don't recall Sai Baba saying that

anyway if you like me appreciate Sai baba then you would know that Sai Baba acknowledges the historicity and divinity of Jesus

[ThePythonicCow]

This thread is closed for perhaps a half hour, while I do some rearranging.

[ThePythonicCow]

Just because some thread uses some keyword (e.g. "Jesus" above) does not mean we get to derail that thread with our contrary view.

Quoting someone and then labeling them, their quote, or something evidenced in that quote (e.g. "NLP" above) in a accusatory tone will put most people on the defensive and feel like an attack.

Please show some respect for other members, for their conversations, and for the mods who repeatedly choose to clean these messes up in an effort to keep this forum one of the best.

[ThePythonicCow]

This thread is reopen for business.

:) :cow: :)

[Calz]

This thread is reopen for business.

:) :cow: :)


Searched for an image with a cow parting the red sea ... must be losing my touch so need to settle for these instead. :dirol:


12368


12369

[Unified Serenity]

You know Paul when people do more than "mention" Jesus but portray he never even existed and that those small group of foolish cult members followed him and made a religion out of mythic contruct that never existed, maybe there is room to question what they say. You jumping in and implying that we are intolerant and derailing their thread when they actually brought up this issue is a little like someone going into a crowded theatre yelling "FIRE" and when someone reacts and stampedes giving the one reacting a ticket for stupidly responding to the one who yelled "FIRE".

Amazing really.... truly amazing

[Unified Serenity]

Since this is a new thread, I will now post my information for all to read that I had started two new threads regarding.



Ancient Non-Christian Sources
discussing the existence of Jesus



There are some who teach there is no proof of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth whom Christians believe to be the Messiah. Some say there is no proof written of him. I believe he did exist despite ancient salvation plays that existed long before the time of Messiah. I will also say that not seeing him mentioned by some does not mean he did not exist for it is my contention that they did not need to talk or verify a truth that was obvious to them at that time. There are however non-christian sources that did talk about this time period, did talk about the Christos and his followers and usually not in a pleasant way. It is these texts which I am going to share. You can do your own research and verify this as you like and I encourage you to do so as it should set your mind at ease doing such digging if this subject is of concern to you. I will not be standing in for anyone's choices or paths. We each will gladly choose our own and that is our birthright.


The source for this information comes from Gary R. Habermas who is a definitive scholar on the life of Jesus Christ whom I prefer to call Messiah Yeshua. It is not my goal to convert anyone to Christianity, please get that notion out of your head. That is a highly personal choice, and quite frankly I am not a Christian, I am a Messianic believer and there is a very big difference. Many hate the church and rightly so if what they hate is what is called Christianity today. It is my contention that what Yeshua revealed, lived and taught is not followed by the vast majority of those who proudly proclaim they are following him today. I am not their judge. I understand the way the message of Yeshua was subverted to a satisfactory understanding for me. I could rewrite all this stuff and put my name on it, but frankly, it is brilliant as it is written. I have taken the meat of the chapters out, and supplied it here. If you really want to dig deeper, please read it in it's entirety.


Many make broad sweeping claims that it's common knowledge that the mythos of Christ was created thousands of years before Yeshua was born, and that it (Christianity) was created by a clever group of men who falsly lifted up a man or created a story to create Christianity. I want you to think of those claims while reading these historical truths. I want you to ask yourself who would suffer the penalties of the early believers based on such a flimsy claim? I mean read this, think of what they endured. I am not asking you to convert to anything. I have my own path and I judge no one else path. There is beauty in every culture, and I will leave it at that. What I do find insulting is the broad claims by some and the obvious bias and hatred espoused on some threads that treat this subject with such contempt and act as though these historical writings don't exist. I am sure they will say all these scholars were just twisted misguided cults too, but I will let you the reader decide what has more validity.


From:

The Historical Jesus
Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ



Ancient Historians
Tacitus. Cornelius Tacitus (ca. 55 120 A.D.) was a Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over a half dozen Roman emperors. He has been called the “greatest historian” of ancient Rome, an individual generally acknowledged among scholars for his moral “integrity and essential goodness.”(1)



Tacitus recorded at least one reference to Christ and two to early Christianity, one in each of his major works. The most important one is that found in the Annals, written about 115 A.D. The following was recounted concerning the great fire in Rome during the reign of Nero:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man’s cruelty, that they were being destroyed.(3)
We can ascertain certain truths from this information.






(1) Christians were named for their founder, Christus (from the Latin), (2) who was put to death by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilatus (also Latin), (3) during the reign of emperor Tiberius (14 37 A.D.). (4) His death ended the “superstition” for a short time, (5) but it broke out again, (6) especially in Judaea, where the teaching had its origin.
(7) His followers carried his doctrine to Rome. (8) When the great fire destroyed a large part of the city during the reign of Nero (54 68 A.D.), the emperor placed the blame on the Christians who lived in Rome. (9) Tacitus reports that this group was hated for their abominations. (10) These Christians were arrested after pleading guilty, (11) and many were convicted for “hatred for mankind.” (12) They were mocked and (13) then tortured, including being “nailed to crosses” or burnt to death. (14) Because of these actions, the people had compassion on the Christians. (15) Tacitus therefore concluded that such punishments were not for the public good but were simply “to glut one man’s cruelty.”(4)

Tacitus had access to Roman documents going back to the time of Pilate. There was also talk of a strange superstition written of:




J. N. D. Anderson sees implications in Tacitus’ quote concerning Jesus’ resurrection.

It is scarcely fanciful to suggest that when he adds that “A most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out” he is bearing indirect and unconscious testimony to the conviction of the early church that the Christ who had been crucified had rise from the grave.(6)


The second reference to Jesus in the writings of Tacitus is found in the Histories. While the specific reference is lost, as is most of this book, the reference is preserved by Sulpicus Severus.(7) He informs us that Tacitus wrote of the burning of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans in 70 A.D., an event which destroyed the city. The Christians are mentioned as a group that were connected with these events. All we can gather from this reference is that Tacitus was also aware of the existence of Christians other than in the context of their presence in Rome. Granted, the facts that Tacitus (and most other extra biblical sources) report about Jesus are well known in our present culture. Yet we find significance in the surprising confirmation for the life of Jesus.
Suetonius. Another Roman historian who also makes one reference to Jesus and one to Christians is Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas. Little is known about him except that he was the chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian (117 138 A.D.) and that he had access to the imperial records.(8) The first reference occurs in the section on emperor Claudius (41 54 A.D.). Writing about the same time as Tacitus,(9) Suetonius remarked concerning Claudius:

Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the city.(10) The translator notes that “Chrestus” is a variant spelling of “Christ,” as noted by other commentators as well,(11) and is virtually the same as Tacitus’ Latin spelling.
Suetonius refers to a wave of riots which broke out in a large Jewish community in Rome during the year of 49 A.D. As a result, the Jews were banished from the city. Incidentally, this statement has an interesting corroboration in Acts 18:2, which relates that Paul met a Jewish couple from Pontus named Aquila and his wife Priscilla, who had recently left Italy because Claudius had demanded that all Jews leave Rome.
The second reference from Suetonius is again to the Christians who were tortured by emperor Nero:

After the great fire at Rome . . . . Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief.(12) Few facts are derived from the two references by Suetonius. The first relates (1) to the expulsion of Jews from Rome, but also makes the claim (2) that it was Christ who caused the Jews to make the uproar in Rome, apparently by his teachings. The second reference is quite similar to the longer statement by Tacitus, (3) including the use of the word “mischievous” to describe the group’s beliefs and (4) the term “Christians” to identify this group as followers of the teachings of Christ.



Josephus. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus was born in 37 or 38 A.D. and died in 97 A.D. He was born into a priestly family and became a Pharisee at the age of nineteen. After surviving a battle against the Romans, he served commander Vespasian in Jerusalem. After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., he moved to Rome, where he became the court historian for emperor Vespasian.(13)
The Antiquities, one of Josephus’ major works, provides some valuable but disputed evidence concerning Jesus. Written around 90 95 A.D., it is earlier than the testimonies of the Roman historians. Josephus speaks about many persons and events of first century Palestine and makes two references to Jesus. The first is very brief and is in the context of a reference to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”(14) Here we find a close connection between Jesus and James and the belief on the part of some that Jesus was the Messiah.
The second reference is easily the most important and the most debated, since some of the words appear to be due to Christian interpolation. For instance, a portion of the quotation reports:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats. . . . He was (the) Christ . . . he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.(15) Since Josephus was a Jew, it is unlikely that he would have written about Jesus in this way. Origen informs us that Josephus did not believe Jesus to be the Messiah,(16) yet Eusebius quotes the debated passage including the words above.(17) Therefore, probably the majority of commentators believe that at least a portion of the citation (the distinctly "Christian" words, in particular) is a Christian interpolation. Yet, other scholars have also supported the original ending.(18) A mediating position taken by many holds that the passage itself is written by Josephus with the questionable words either deleted or modified. So the major question here concerns the actual words of Josephus.
There are good indications that the majority of the text is genuine. There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for this statement about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore. Additionally, leading scholars on the works of Josephus have testified that this portion is written in the style of this Jewish historian.(19) Thus we conclude that there are good reasons for accepting this version of Josephus’ statement about Jesus, with modification of the questionable words. In fact, it is possible that these modifications can even be accurately ascertained.
In 1972 Professor Schlomo Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem released the results of a study on an Arabic manuscript containing Josephus’ statement about Jesus. It includes a different and briefer rendering of the entire passage, including changes in the key words listed above:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.(20) Of the three disputed portions, none remains unchanged. The initial problematic statement “if it be lawful to call him a man” has been dropped completely, recounting only that Jesus was a wise man. The words “he was a doer of wonderful works” have also been deleted. Instead of the words “He was (the) Christ” we find “he was perhaps the messiah.” The phrase :he appeared to them the third day” now reads “they (the disciples) reported that he had appeared to them,” which is an entirely true statement which was voiced by the first century eyewitnesses. Lastly, the statement that “the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him” has been drastically reduced to “concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders,” which concerns the messiah and possibly not even Jesus, according to Josephus. Therefore, while some words are completely deleted, others are qualified by “perhaps” and “reported.”
There are some good reasons why the Arabic version may indeed be the original words of Josephus before any Christian interpolations. As Schlomo Pines and David Flusser, of the Hebrew University, have stated, it is quite plausible that none of the arguments against Josephus writing the original words even applies to the Arabic text, especially since the latter would have had less chance of being censored by the church. In addition, Flusser notes that an earmark of authenticity comes from the fact that the Arabic version omits the accusation that the Jews were to blame for Jesus’ death, which is included in the original reading.(21)

Jewish sources:




The Talmud. The Jews handed down a large amount of oral tradition from generation to generation. This material was organized according to subject matter by Rabbi Akiba before his death in 135 A.D. His work was then revised by his student, Rabbi Meir. The project was completed about 200 A.D. by Rabbi Judah and is known as the Mishnah. Ancient commentary on the Mishnah was called the Gemaras. The combination of the Mishnah and the Gemaras form the Talmud.(38)
It would be expected that the most reliable information about Jesus from the Talmud would come from the earliest period of compilation — 70 to 200 A.D., known as the Tannaitic period. A very significant quotation is found in Sanhedrin 43a, dating from just this early period:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward ad plead on his behalf.” But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!(39) Here we have another brief account of the death of Jesus. These two references to Jesus being “hanged” certainly provide an interesting term to describe his death. But it should be noted that the New Testament speaks of crucifixion in the same way. Jesus is said to have been “hanged” (Greek kremámenos in Gal. 3:13), as were the two males killed at the same time (Greek kremasthenton in Luke 23:39). While the term “crucified” is a much more common reference to this event,(40) “hanged” is a variant expression of the same fate.
From this passage in the Talmud we learn about (1) the fact of Jesus’ death by crucifixion and (2) the time of this event, which is mentioned twice as occurring on the eve of the Jewish Passover. We are surprisingly told (3) that for forty days beforehand it was publicly announced that Jesus would be stoned. While not specifically recorded in the New Testament, such is certainly consistent with both Jewish practice and with the report that this had also been threatened on at least two other occasions (John 8:58 59; 10:31 33, 39). It is related (4) that Jesus was judged by the Jews to be guilty of “sorcery” and spiritual apostasy in leading Israel astray by his teaching. (5) It is also stated that since no witnesses came forward to defend him, he was killed.
It is interesting that there is no explanation as to why Jesus was crucified (“hanged”) when stoning was the prescribed punishment. It is likely that the Roman involvement provided the “change of plans,” without specifically being mentioned here.
Another early reference in the Talmud speaks of five of Jesus’ disciples and recounts their standing before judges

Other Sources:




Lucian. A second century Greek satirist, Lucian spoke rather derisively of Jesus and early Christians. His point was to criticize Christians for being such gullible people that, with very little warrant, they would approve charlatans who pose as teachers, thereby supporting these persons even to the point of making them wealthy. In the process of his critique he relates some important facts concerning Jesus and Christians:

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.(50) From the material supplied by Lucian we may derive the following data concerning Jesus and early Christians. (1) We are told that Jesus was worshiped by Christians. (2) It is also related that Jesus introduced new teachings in Palestine (the location is given in another unquoted portion of Section II) and (3) that he was crucified because of these teachings. Jesus taught his followers certain doctrines, such as (4) all believers are brothers, (5) from the moment that conversion takes place and (6) after the false gods are denied (such as those of Greece). Additionally, these teachings included (7) worshiping Jesus and (8) living according to his laws. (9) Lucian refers to Jesus as a “sage,” which, especially in a Greek context, would be to compare him to the Greek philosophers and wise men.



Mara Bar Serapion. The British Museum owns the manuscript of a letter written sometime between the late first and third centuries A.D. Its author was a Syrian named Mara Bar Serapion, who was writing from prison to motivate his son Serapion to emulate wise teachers of the past:(52)

What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment fort heir crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given.(53)


Other Lost Works
Acts of Pontius Pilate. The contents of this purportedly lost document are reported by both Justin Martyr (ca. 150 A.D.) and Tertullian (ca. 200 A.D.). Both agree that it was an official document of Rome. Two types of archives were kept in ancient Rome. the Acta senatus were composed of minutes of the senatorial meetings. These contained no discussions of Christ or Christianity as far as is known. The Commentarii principis were composed of the correspondence sent to the emperors from various parts of the empire. Any report from Pilate to Tiberius would belong to this second group.(79)
Justin Martyr reported around 150 A.D. in his First Apology that the details of Jesus’ crucifixion could be validated from Pilate’s report”

And the expression, “They pierced my hands and my feet,” was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after he was crucified, they cast lots upon his vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen you can ascertain the “Acts” of Pontius Pilate.(80) {Capitalization or not of He/Him/His needs to be consistent throughout quote}Later in the same work Justin lists several healing miracles and asserts, “And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.”(81)
Justin Martyr relates several facts, believing them to be contained in Pilate’s report. The chief concern is apparently Jesus’ crucifixion, with details such as (1) his hands and feet being nailed to the cross and (2) the soldiers gambling for his garments. But it is also asserted (3) that several of Jesus’ miracles were also included in Pilate’s report.
Tertullian even reports that Tiberius acted on the report:

Tiberius accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from Palestine of events which had clearly shown the truth of Christ’s divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favour of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all accusers of the Christians.(82) Tertullian’s account claims (4) that Tiberius actually brought details of Christ’s life before the Roman Senate, apparently for a vote of approval. The Senate then reportedly spurned Tiberius’ own vote of approval, which engendered a warning from the emperor not to attempt actions against Christians. As noted by Bruce, this incident, which Tertullian apparently accepts as accurate, is quite an improbable occurrence. It is difficult to accept such an account when the work reporting it is about 170 years later than the event, with seemingly no good intervening sources for such acceptance.(83)
It should be noted that the Acts of Pilate referred to here should not be confused with later fabrications by the same name, which may certainly have been written to take the place of these records which were believed to exist.



Phlegon. The last reference to be discussed in this chapter is that of Phlegon, whom Anderson describes as “a freedmen of the Emperor Hadrian who was born about A.D. 80.”(85) Phlegon's work is no longer in existence and we depend on others for our information.
Origen records the following:

Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events (although falling into confusion about some things which refer to Peter, as if they referred to Jesus), but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.(86) So Phlegon mentioned that Jesus made predictions about future events that had been fulfilled.
Origen adds another comment about Phlegon:

And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place, Phlegon too, I think, has written in the thirteenth or fourteenth book of his Chronicles.(87) Julius Africanus agrees on the last reference to Phlegon, adding a bit more information: "Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour."(88)
Origen provides one other reference, this time actually quoting Phlegon on the subject of the resurrection: "Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails."(89)
From Phlegon we therefore learn the following items: (1) Jesus accurately predicted the future. (2) There was an eclipse at the crucifixion from the sixth to the ninth hours, (3) followed by earthquakes, (4) all during the reign of Tiberius Caesar. (4) After his resurrection, Jesus appeared and showed his wounds, especially the nail marks from his crucifixion.



Conclusion
This chapter has shown that ancient extra biblical sources do present a surprisingly large amount of detail concerning both the life of Jesus and the nature of early Christianity. While many of these facts are quite well known, we must remember that they have been documented here apart from the usage of the New Testament. When viewed in that light, we should realize that it is quite extraordinary that we could provide a broad outline of most of the major facts of Jesus’ life from “secular” history alone. Such is surely significant.
Using only the information gleaned from these ancient extra biblical sources, what can we conclude concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus? Can these events be historically established on these sources alone? Of the seventeen documents examined in this chapter, eleven different works speak of the death of Jesus in varying amounts of detail, with five of these specifying crucifixion as the mode. When these sources are examined by normal historical procedures used with other ancient documents, the result is conclusive.(91) It is this author’s view that the death of Jesus by crucifixion can be asserted as a historical fact from this data. This conclusion is strengthened by the variety of details which are related by good sources. As mentioned often, a few of the documents may be contested, but the entire bulk of evidence points quite probably to the historicity of Jesus’ death due to the rigors of crucifixion.
The ancient references to the resurrection are fewer and somewhat more questionable. Of the seventeen sources, seven either imply or report this occurrence, with four of these works being questioned in our study. Before answering the issue concerning Jesus’ resurrection, we will initially address the cognate point of whether the empty tomb can be established as historical by this extra biblical evidence alone. There are some strong considerations in its favor.
First, the Jewish sources which we have examined admit the empty tomb, thereby providing evidence from hostile documents. Josephus notes the disciples’ belief in Jesus’ resurrection, while the Toledoth Jesu specifically acknowledges the empty tomb. Justin Martyr and Tertullian confirm Matt. 28:11 15 by asserting that Jewish leaders were still admitting the empty tomb over a century later. While these Jewish sources (with the exception of Josephus) teach that the body was stolen or moved, they still admit the empty tomb.
Second, there are apparently no ancient sources which assert that the tomb still contained Jesus’ body. While such an argument from silence does not prove anything, it is made stronger by the first consideration from the hostile sources and further complements it.
Third, our study has shown that Jesus taught in Palestine and was crucified and buried in Jerusalem under Pontius Pilate. These sources assert that Christianity had its beginnings in the same location. But could Christianity have survived in this location, based o its central claim that Jesus was raised from the dead, if the tomb had not been empty?
It must be remembered that the resurrection of the body was the predominant view of first century Jews. To declare a bodily resurrection if the body was still in a nearby tomb points out the dilemma here. Of all places. evidence was readily available in Jerusalem to disprove this central tenet of Christian belief. The Jewish leaders had both a motive and the means to get such evidence if it were available. As expressed by historian of antiquity, Paul Maier, speaking of the birth of Christianity:

But this is the very last place it could have started if Jesus’ tomb had remained occupied, since anyone producing a dead Jesus would have driven a wooden stake through the heart of an incipient Christianity inflamed by his supposed resurrection.(92) Based on the evidence admitted by hostile documents, the absence of contrary data and the important information concerning the location of the message, we conclude that there is some probability for the empty tomb based on ancient extra biblical sources alone. Maier confirms this:

Accordingly, if all the evidence is weighed carefully and fairly, it is indeed justifiable, according to the canons of historical research, to conclude that the sepulcher of Joseph of Arimathea, in which Jesus was buried, was actually empty on the morning of the first Easter.(93) Dealing with different factual data, Michael Grant agrees from a historical viewpoint:

But if we apply the same sort of criteria that we would apply to any other ancient literary sources, then the evidence is firm and plausible enough to necessitate the conclusion that the tomb was indeed found empty.(94) But what about the teaching that the disciples or someone else stole the dead body of Jesus? Does this account for the empty tomb and end the question of Jesus’ resurrection?
Contemporary critical scholars, whether skeptical or not, are virtually unanimous in rejecting such hypotheses.(95) If the disciples stole the body, they would not have been willing to die, in all probability, for a known lie or fraud.(96) Liars do not make good martyrs. Additionally, the changed lives of the earliest disciples and their belief that Jesus was raised, both of which are admitted by critics, are unexplained if they stole the body. This charge fails to address the two unbelieving skeptics who saw the risen Jesus, Paul and James the brother of Jesus, who would hardly have been convinced by such fraud. These and several other considerations such as the quality of ethical teachings of the disciples account for the dismissal of this view even by critical scholars. As far as the author knows, it has not been held by a reputable scholar for over 200 years.(97)
Equally faulty is the hypothesis that the body of Jesus was taken or moved by someone other than the disciples. The major problem, among others, is that it does not account for the strongest, critically ascertained fact in favor of the resurrection — the disciples’ belief that the risen Jesus had literally appeared to them. Since one must search elsewhere to account for this major fact, this view cannot disprove the resurrection. Not only is this the case with the disciples alone, but even more with Paul and James, who pose additional refutations.
Additionally, such views fail to provide a plausible person(s) to perform such an act, viable motives, a place for Jesus’ final burial, or for the fact that the act was never admitted, discovered or otherwise reported. But again, the appearances of Jesus are not even dealt with by these theses, and this constitutes the primary refutation.
Also, it should be remembered that the Toledoth Jesu, which purports the view that Jesus’ body was dragged down Jerusalem’s streets, is a much later source, and it is disdained as nonhistorical even by most Jewish scholars. Its thesis fails because such an act would have killed Christianity centuries ago, when such an act obviously did not occur. Neither does it explain Jesus’ appearances. It is no wonder that these fraud hypotheses have also had no reputable supporters in the last two centuries.(98)
However, we still cannot conclude that ancient extra biblical sources, by themselves, historically demonstrate the resurrection, as is true with Jesus’ death by crucifixion. The evidence indicates that alternative theories involving a stolen or moved body are invalid, and that the tomb was empty, but the cause of this event cannot be proven at this point alone. Still, the testimony of Josephus and Phlegon, in particular, are very helpful, and supplement the excellent case in Chapter 7 from the New Testament creeds and known facts.
We conclude that ancient extra biblical sources both provide a broad outline of the life of Jesus and indicate that he died due to the effects of crucifixion. Afterwards he was buried and his tomb was later found empty, but the body had not be stolen or moved. While we have this mystery and some factual evidence in favor of Jesus’ resurrection, additional data from other sources are needed in order to reach a final position.



http://www.garyhabermas.com/books/historicaljesus/historicaljesus.htm

[Unified Serenity]

How to Control a Group via NLP


Automatic Behavior, Mental Shortcuts and Traps you need to know about.

Manipulation is part of our life. There are few groups of mental shortcuts that make us vulnerable, and countless variations and combinations of them. People are willing to die for them - and this is not a metaphor. They would go to war, they would take poison, they would choose a career - the one they hate... They may even create a car accident - without realizing that they are repeating a scenario described in the yesterday's newspaper... But mostly they would spend time and money.
YOUR life, your time and your money.
This is when the knowledge turns into power.

Learn to recognize modern manipulation techniques and to resist them.
Learn to use mental shortcuts to manipulate others.
The above was taken from: http://nlp.snowcron.com/intro_manipulation.htm (http://nlp.snowcron.com/intro_manipulation.htm)

I am going to share some information about NLP. It can be used for good or bad purposes, it all depends on one's goals. Just remember that if it can be used to manipulate a conversation it all depends on what the goal of the manipulator who is controlling the conversation or has written the article you are using. I will source what I say here for you to check this out for yourself. My words are added in brackets like [this].

First, what is NLP:

"Three Components
Neuro Linguistic Programming embodies the theoretical components of neurology, linguistics and programming. NLP is based on the theory that individuals experience their environment through the senses and, in turn, translate that information into conscious and unconscious cognitive processes. Thought processes activate the neural systems, thus impacting emotions, behaviors and physiology. Linguistic refers to the way humans use language to manipulate through the environment, conceptualize experiences and communicate with others. In NLP, linguistics studies how the words you speak [or write] influence your experience [or what the reader experiences via your words]. Programming addresses how individuals mentally code experience. NLP shows people how to recode their experiences and organize their internal programming so that they can achieve desired outcomes [or how manipulators can achieve their desired outcomes by understanding how to use certain forms of speech].


Four Basic Techniques
Neuro Linguistic Programming is based on four primary techniques: rapport, sensory awareness, outcome thinking and behavioral flexibility. Rapport is an important aspect of interpersonal relationships [very important on this forum or no one will listen to you], and NLP aims to provide the framework to develop the mental dexterity required for building strong relationships with others on both a personal and professional level. The world is rich with sensory information, and NLP focuses on developing sensory awareness by analyzing sensory perceptions and utilizing natural senses. Outcome thinking is an important part of NLP that emphasizes ideas about what you want as a way to avoid negative thinking [if you can avoid something you can also attract something or a form of thoughts about a subject such as Christianity, Aliens, Teachings, Etc.]. Behavioral flexibility teaches how you can do something different when what you are currently doing is not working out. These four techniques are employed together to achieve the desired outcome and deal with any given situation."

Read more: Neuro Linguistic Programming Techniques | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/way_5339504_neur...#ixzz1i3gibZ00 (http://www.ehow.com/way_5339504_neuro-linguistic-programming-techniques.html#ixzz1i3gibZ00)


So, we can clearly see that one can use NLP to control a conversation or steer it and through words guide a reader into a certain line of thought that as the author you want them to accept. I am not saying that all of us authors are not trying to have people accept our words, but when someone is speaking about a subject and in that subject attacks a well established belief system not directly, but through the use of terms meant to instill feelings of doubt, ridicule, shame, and fear then look out because manipulation is happening. Simply say what you think and let people accept it or not if it's worthwhile because if you back up what you say with interesting verifiable facts then thinking people will listen. What NLP tricks do though is insert inflammatory words that are meant to hit the subconscious mind of the reader who obviously does not want to be a dupe, crazy, neurotic, shamed, or ridiculed or be viewed as such because they do like the subject that the author just attacked via NLP tricks.

This happens a lot on the forum and for quite some time no one confronted it, but now that I have addressed it on one thread where the OP brought up the subject via such manipulations, and I responded to that particular subject, I was accused of derailing their thread, when I actually was addressing a pretty important part of their own writing, and not attacking the OP. These techniques are very subtle and if one does not read with some serious asbestos covered hats, their thoughts will be burned and manipulated. Now, replace the subject of Christianity with Ascension, Buddhism, Communism, Psychics and see how would the reader respond to this passage:


"Well, no-one’s quite sure how it happened, but happen it did [NLP who says it happened? This is a trick to make you accept this as truth]. A small clique of those people who attended the Lesser Mysteries — or at least knew the stories that were told and performed at them — decided that they must be true[NLP small clique implies minority of thinkers not established, fringe kooks] , that the Sun god who had died and risen again, three days later, had been a real person who had once lived [NLP by prior words has laid the groundwork in the readers mind that those who think this way are wrong]. Not only that [NLP trick of nudge nudge wink wink but can you believe these nuts go on to think...], they also believed that this real dying and resurrecting godman was born in Nazareth thousands of years after the first one of these plays was ever performed.

Now most people [NLP trick of the reader wants to be accepted by the group so use the term "most people"] at the time, on hearing this, were vastly amused [NLP trick of ridicule and pity for the misguided clique] and some of the philosophy schools in Rome even felt a bit sorry [NLP trick to instill pity and the reader does not want to be pitied so best not think like those in X group being disrespected by the author] for this group. For one thing, they knew [NLP trick to imply fact when there is ZERO verification of this "fact" by the author, but just state it and the reader accepts it because it's obviously common knowledge and no one wants to think they are that dumb right?] that ‘Nazarene’ was a Judaic rendering in metaphor for the Indian Naga or Nagerene, wise serpent teacher. But still, for hundreds of years, it stayed that way, with the small cult [NLP trick repeating the imagery of these nuts as a cult] that believed in a real historical dying and resurrecting godman being regarded by everyone else [NLP trick of be in the group think status not an outsider who gets ostracized] as a harmless bunch of eccentrics [NLP trick to ridicule crazy uncle Ron, you don't want to be crazy uncle Ron do you?] who had misunderstood [NLP pity technique cause the cult was too dumb to get it] the metaphorical teachings. And this is exactly how it would have stayed if it hadn’t been for a power hungry emperor called Constantine [NLP throw in this guy who did in fact subjugate the real message, is a real historical figure most are aware of and thus all the above must be truth]


[Now are you ready for the real purpose of the above passage now that as the reader you have been made to feel part of the group, smart, not want to feel ridiculed, stupid, misguided, ostracized, then get ready because here is what you need to believe to fit in]

"So this is how the spirits became 'gods' and then eventually the gods became 'God' and Jesus the mythical Sun God became Jesus the real Son of God."

You can find all this on the thread created by Ishtar and she does not want any of this discussed there, so I will discuss the use of NLP for programming readers on a forum toward her message.

She has every right to share her message, but it appears she needs to attack Christianity as part of it, and yet no one who views things differently is allowed to say so on her thread. I am not attacking Ishtar or saying she does not have a right to say whatever she wants to say, but if she will not answer to her own writings and back up what she says, and tells me or others to start our own threads then this is the outcome.

It is not my wish to create an atmosphere of fighting. I try to engage those who want to discuss what I say in a respectful manner. I do not ridicule anothers path. I will share dangers I see on a path, but I will not imply they are stupid, to be pitied, or feel ashamed for following their heart. Like I said, insert your path into where "Christianity was inserted and see how it feels and if what is said rings true or does it feel like a manipulation of things to gain a certain head nodding and tsk tsking for those stupid followers of X group.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read along with the author I started this piece with from NLP.Snowcron.com

To start with, let me ask you a question - and I want you to answer it FAST. I always do this sort of mental exercises before the serous staff begins. So... How many fingers does the man have on his hands? Good. How many on ten hands?


If you are like most people (and if not - you still can be manipulated), the answer will be "ten" and "one hundred", the first answer is perfectly correct, and the second - perfectly wrong.

What happened here is a shortcut, one of simple ones, called conditioning by association. One man - ten fingers on hands. Ten hands... And then some smart a... guy came and built a trap.

If you are familiar with NLP, you may notice, that we have built and instantly used an anchor, but you don't need to know NLP to read this text. That's a beauty of it - anyone can use it. Not only professionals.


Anyway, where is a manipulation?

Think Coca-Cola.
What does a beautiful young man (girl) drink?


There are few types of mental shortcuts, some of them can be created (we show a video clip with young people drinking Cola and having fun), while some of them are already there. In your mind. Installed by our society and ready to be used. Example?

The following example is an illustration of so-called reciprocation rule, one of many, described in a wonderful book "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert Cialdini.

The way this rule works is "if someone does you a favor, you owe him a favor in return". This is a "preinstalled" rule, which means you learned it when you were a child. Something like "always return favors, or people will dislike you". A very powerful belief that almost no one questions.

And of course, it can be used to manipulate people. Have you tried a free sample in the super store? Wait a minute! This person just gave you something for free - it can be qualified as a favor! What can you do in return?
You can buy a box of whatever he is selling. Now, compare this:
"Would you like to buy this overpriced corn flakes?"
To this:
Would you like to try this free sample? (It is not polite to decline, right?) And then - "Would you like to buy one?" (by saying "no" you will refuse to return a favor).

By the way, the "rule" does not mention the size of a favor. Should I do same amount of "good" in return? Not necessarily. So it is possible to do a small favor and to ask for a big one in return. Just like this one:

Hi, I would like to present you this flower from our local Krishna society.
Thank you, I do not...
No, no, please - this is for you.
OK... Thanks...
Would you consider making a small contribution...

(Believe it or not, but after this simple technique was applied, number of Krishna society offices increased TEN TIMES.)

Or this
"Here, let me help you with your bag"...


Or this
"I dedicated all my life to you"... (now you owe me a big one).
By the way, yes, there is such thing as a good manipulation.


Think about convincing a child to do the homework...
Convincing old people to visit doctor.
Convincing your boss to raise your salary...
Family problems? Relations falling apart? Conflicts at work? Discover the real reason.

Bad habits (yours or someone's you care about)? Manipulate them, why not?
There is a very important difference between this technique and techniques related to NLP and Hypnosis, described in other texts on this web site. A good hypnotic technique can benefit, if it incorporates "tricks" like the reciprocity, but you do not need to know hypnosis or NLP to use the manipulation technique described above.

Perhaps a metaphor may help. Imagine, that you are a hypnotist, and you need to make your subject to stay still, looking straight forward and not responding to other noises in the room, except for your voice.

You can use pattern interruptions, conversational trance techniques, deepening, rapport building... It might or might not work.

But if you know, that your subject is in the military, all you need to do is to dress like a general (of the same army!), to walk in the room and to say AT-TENTION!


Want more? Let's do a hypnotic trick, called "hand levitation". You can go with "close your eyes and feel an air balloon, attached to your wrist", or you may just ask "what time is it?" And the person's hand will go up. What? It is not the real thing? It is a trick? Yes, it is. A trick. A manipulation.

The thing is - it works equally good as a joke (the hand levitation above) and as in a life-and-death situations. No difference. None.

You do not have to build certain types of responses. They are already there.
And they are much more powerful than anything you can imagine...
Get chapters of these $$$ eBooks FREE in these email classes
Ok, for now you probably already know why I call these types of behavior "automatic". But what does it have to do with shortcuts?


If I was using NLP language, I would speak about generalization, deletion and distortion by now, but as I promised to avoid it, lets take a look at the way we think. The world is a very complex place.


There is no way for us to always keep in mind all factors we need. Consider driving a car. Do you remember, when you were learning to operate this thing, you had to pay attention to everything? And now - you just do it. How? By using shortcuts. Instead of "when you see the green light, slow down, look around, restart your car and carefully pass the intersection" you are just doing "when you see green - go". A shortcut, that works most of the time - until someone drives on red and hits your car.

Now, when you read an article in the newspaper, how do you decide, if it is true or not? Are you going to the library - every time - to research the subject? No, you are using shortcuts again.

For example, if I see an article on the stock trading written by Warren Buffet himself, I will probably believe it more, then if the author is a chairman of the local folk music society. A shortcut.

And now comes the important part - we usually do not realize that we are using shortcuts. We just do them. Automatically. No thinking involved. Of course it makes us vulnerable.

Don't take me wrong. We need shortcuts. They are very valuable. They help us to make decisions fast, and with minimum efforts.
Until the same shortcuts are used in the commercials, or by politicians...

For example, you know what the word "sale" means, right? You place this sign in front of the store, and customers know that they came to the right place for a great bargain.
Let's experiment. Let's place the sign (as they do in newspapers when selling life insurance) and INCREASE the price. People will still come! Try it. Shop around to get an idea of what life insurance costs and then compare it to the "great price limited time" offers in newspaper. You might find, that (as any dictionary would confirm) the true meaning of the word "great" is "very big"...


But the trick still works...
A friend of mine owns a store. Once he was selling shoes - quite mediocre shoes, to tell the truth. He wanted money, so he put the profit margin at 40 percent. It didn't work. Then he made it 400 percent. Guess what? He sold all shoes in one day (and then had to refund most of them, but it is a different story).

Shortcuts are everywhere - that's why they are so important. Statistics shows that more nice-looking guy will get a less severe sentence in the court of law - so it is a good idea to know it and to shave, and to wear a nice suite. The judge doesn't have time to get to know you better, so - unconsciously - he is using a shortcut (beautiful people are nicer).
The salesman will sell you much more (junk) if he presents it in a particular way and in particular order.

A politician (a man) will be more successful if he is taller, as the matter of fact a taller candidates won 90 percent of president elections in USA since 1900...
It is a whole new world - new for most of the people...

[Unified Serenity]

Just because some thread uses some keyword (e.g. "Jesus" above) does not mean we get to derail that thread with our contrary view.

Quoting someone and then labeling them, their quote, or something evidenced in that quote (e.g. "NLP" above) in a accusatory tone will put most people on the defensive and feel like an attack.

Please show some respect for other members, for their conversations, and for the mods who repeatedly choose to clean these messes up in an effort to keep this forum one of the best.

I don't think tone is clear anywhere. I also think it's a bit disengenuous for the OP to basically to yell "FIRE" in a theatre knowing it will get people to react and have the cops run in and give tickets to anyone who stampeded and never notice the actions of the one who yelled "FIRE" to get it all moving. The OP did a lot more than mention "Jesus" and Khaleesi clearly showed how inflamatory what was written by the OP was. My comments are clear to see. I think this bit you wrote is both inflamatory and unfair, but so be it, you have a right to your opinion. I also find it odd that I notified the mods of this whole issue at 6:52 I believe yesterday, and you came in to deal with it at midnight. I guess they did not see the problem you saw, and none of them even commented to me there was a problem despite my bringing it to their attention. It's all very interesting.

[ThePythonicCow]

I also find it odd that I notified the mods of this whole issue at 6:52 I believe yesterday, and you came in to deal with it at midnight. I guess they did not see the problem you saw, and none of them even commented to me there was a problem despite my bringing it to their attention. It's all very interesting.
I received no such notice from you at 6:52 yesterday, but apparently some other mods did then, or else they noticed the concerns with Istar's thread for some other reason. We had been discussing it and considering what to do if anything, for some eight hours now, on and off, as we each did other things in our personal lives.

Since it seems you are more focused on being defensive and on finding fault, it seems that my concern with thread derailment was not heard.

Likely we will meet again, on this concern :).

[Unified Serenity]

I also find it odd that I notified the mods of this whole issue at 6:52 I believe yesterday, and you came in to deal with it at midnight. I guess they did not see the problem you saw, and none of them even commented to me there was a problem despite my bringing it to their attention. It's all very interesting.
I received no such notice from you at 6:52 yesterday, but apparently some other mods did then, or else they noticed the concerns with Istar's thread for some other reason. We had been discussing it and considering what to do if anything, for some eight hours now, on and off, as we each did other things in our personal lives.

Since it seems you are more focused on being defensive and on finding fault, it seems that my concern with thread derailment was not heard.

Likely we will meet again, on this concern :).


Paul,

What I find confusing is that it's not ok to bring up NLP usage as that is inflamatory and yet spending a good deal of time selling an unbacked up idea that Jesus never existed and when I try to discuss it, the OP basically say's "No, and get off my thread". Where is it ok to make incredible statments as facts regarding that which is akin to my example of someone yelling "Fire" and then when challenged somehow the one's questioning the comments and tactics used by the OP which were clearly manipulative in the wording ..... that the ones who questioned are somehow in the wrong because it wasn't their thread? I did not have a tone. I made an observation she did not like.

It seems some here can make all kinds of observations, ridicule members, give back handed humerous comments and yet somehow the one noticing is ticketed and accused of tone and inciting a fight. wow, the bullies do run the asylum. I back away now, will remember Ishtar is above reproach as well as certain other members until they come right out and say something really offensive, but I shall not mention NLP or disinfo tactics though they are quite obvious to many.

I shall take my seat now, but I won't be licking anyone's **** covered boots. sorry

[BestLion]

As a former Christian I was in search for truth and one of the main things that led me out of that faith was the historical aspect of Christianity. Jesus is the most new of the line of sun gods. If one studies ancient cultures of the Sumerians, Hittites, Babylonians and Egyptians. One can clearly see the entire Jewish bible in these religions. Even the same god..EL (Jewish god Elohim) Elohim is the first name of this Jewish god..as in the Genesis account. And Hebrew text this is Plural..
If one studies lost civilizations..'pre-flood' one find no mention anywhere of "Jesus Christ". Sure the Christians love to insert Jesus anywhere they can to convince others of their faith..i read they even went to the extent of measuring the tunnel in the Kings chamber as evidence of years of the time and birth of Jesus "absurd". But this is nothing more then complete nonsense. Nowhere in ancient megalithic culture do we find any indication about this Jesus.
Ishtar was the main religion around 1,700 BC, and she became a lesser deity who was subservient to the new male gods of the warrior-kings. Ishtar was the one who saved and guided Sargon throughout his life. "Sargon has many attributes of "Jesus " much from what I have come to learn from some home research is that nearly every major religion of the world is based somehow on an Egytian style creation theory. which develoved during the reign of (Akhenaten pharaoh)... seems that people spread out from this area all those years ago and took their version of the story all over the world..... The similarities are really quite extraordinary.
It is important to note that we have one, and only one, source of information about the life of Jesus and that is the Christian Gospels. The Gospels are the sole source of information about this figure; everything that we "know" about "him" depends on these sources.But are the Gospels reliable historical accounts? You can google that and find that they are NOT!
Historians have no evidence of a historic Jesus dating from the early first century, even though many contemporary writers documented the era in great detail. Philo of Alexandria, for example, wrote in depth about early first-century Palestine, naming other self-proclaimed messiahs, yet never once mentioning a man named Jesus. Many other contemporary writers covered that era, yet there is not a single mention of any existence, deeds, or words of a man named Jesus.
The Gospels are not history; they are religious propaganda, contradictory, exaggerated, and mythical. The earliest Christian writings, the letters of Paul, are silent about the man Jesus: Paul, who never met Jesus, fails to mention a single deed or saying of Jesus (except for the ritualistic Last Supper formula), and sometimes contradicts what Jesus supposedly said. To Paul, Jesus was a heavenly disembodied Christ figure, not a man of flesh and blood.
Jesus is just one of the biggest hoaxes of history. Totally plagiarized and made up.

[Unified Serenity]

Historians have no evidence of a historic Jesus dating from the early first century, even though many contemporary writers documented the era in great detail. Philo of Alexandria, for example, wrote in depth about early first-century Palestine, naming other self-proclaimed messiahs, yet never once mentioning a man named Jesus. Many other contemporary writers covered that era, yet there is not a single mention of any existence, deeds, or words of a man named Jesus.


Bestlion,

I supplied a lot of HISTORICAL facts which you obviously did not read though supplied to you in my above post. You have stated that you hate Christianity and have an agenda to destroy it. I understand you attitude and given agenda, but not taking into account factual information does not allow for clear communication. I doubt you even read my comments on what my path is. It might interest you to know that I find most people who hate christianity hate modern christianity and do not truly know what happened to the truth of Yeshua's message. What we have today is not what was started. Hate that all you want, I do too, but I don't blame Jesus or the disciples. There is plenty of non-religious proof of the existence of Jesus, the facts are clear, but only if you actually read them. If you disagree I invite you to agree to disagree and not fight over it. I will be happy to do so as well.

[ThePythonicCow]

Paul,

What I find confusing is that it's not ok to bring up NLP usage as that is inflamatory and yet spending a good deal of time selling an unbacked up idea that Jesus never existed and when I try to discuss it, the OP basically say's "No, and get off my thread". Where is it ok to make incredible statments as facts regarding that which is akin to my example of someone yelling "Fire" and then when challenged somehow the one's questioning the comments and tactics used by the OP which were clearly manipulative in the wording ..... that the ones who questioned are somehow in the wrong because it wasn't their thread? I did not have a tone. I made an observation she did not like.

It seems some here can make all kinds of observations, ridicule members, give back handed humerous comments and yet somehow the one noticing is ticketed and accused of tone and inciting a fight. wow, the bullies do run the asylum. I back away now, will remember Ishtar is above reproach as well as certain other members until they come right out and say something really offensive, but I shall not mention NLP or disinfo tactics though they are quite obvious to many.

I shall take my seat now, but I won't be licking anyone's **** covered boots. sorry

Both you and Ishtar get to make statements that the other considers outrageous, and you each get to start threads which you can guide to have a particular focus or shared viewpoint that you anticipate will be useful.

Please treat other members, and their threads, with a modicum of respect, in accordance with the guidelines, and in ways conducive to healthy discussion.

We mods defended your right to shepherd a thread when Darla found herself in sharp disagreement with your views, and we defended Ishtar's right to do so when you and two other members found themselves in sharp disagreement with Ishtar.

We're not asking you to lick any **** covered boots. But if you'd quit flinging it our way, that would be appreciated.

[9eagle9]

Story tellers use NLP , because it makes a good STORY.You did mention you were a story teller?

Every good writer knows how to psychologically process the reader by various means. Journalists are not supposed to use NLP they are supposed to report what they see with as little emotional interference as possible. We know by MSM that this is not true anymore.

If one is imparting truth it doesn't need psychological mind ****s. Imparters of wisdom don't have to make a good story because truth is self evident. That's why reading the DVR manual is rather dry . It's imparting , impartially, and in a detached way, the actual mechanism and truth of the matter concerning it. It's helpful if dry. It does something. It teaches YOU to program the DVR, it doesn't program you the way a story will.

Story telling is for programs. Programming. TV programming is based on story telling.

The truth doesn't need a story.

There's truths and there's stories.

If someone is given a truth it becomes self evident. If it's a story it creates conflict. Are suprised that there is conflict here?

The truth becomes self evident once someone gets out of the story or the drama.

So if one is story teller they will use NLP. No you do not need to be trained in it. Like hypnosis it can be used to cure or tamper.

This whole matter serves the same way the whole David Wilcox drama serves. To pump more beliefs into the mass consciouness to keep people's minds tied up and racing in circle. Patriachal energy. Action, action action, male energy to keep the mind racing so much that what he spirit has to impart is virtually ignored. None of this offers any tools for enlightenment. No spade or shovel has been handed over. We are simply told benevolent race of somethingsoranothers want us to ascend. Another belief. Here believe this.

Something from the past is drug up , some story, and institutionalized for use in the future. For something that may or may not happen in the future. It's gambling. Speculations being made. Propped up by some filmy unseen entities that have been somehow given authority over someone's higher intellgience.

When did these spirit guides, angels, gods, goddesses, high priests and priestess suddenly have authority over us. They never did. The only meanign we have is the meaning we give them.

Ascenscion always takes place now. Someone can start the process, at this moment. No Annunaki needed. No nothing needed

The only way we can rise into our higher expression is to begin implementing the higher expression. Not depending on external beings, spirit guides, angels , ufos, and stories. When someone has to relegate their information to a second hand party it shows me they do not trust their higher expression . So must depend on something external of them.

Then they tempt other to seek out external things to continue churning up that mass consciouness. This is how religions are created. 100 monkeys expanded into thousands. How institutions are created. If one was just imparting the detached truth no one would be interested if they were standing in their own power. For the emotionally vulnerable we have to craft a story , with lots of emotional manipulation to make sure the reader is engated and participating in the drama. It doesn't sound dry and boring like the truth is. The truth is simple and self evident , it's not a story. the truth always sounds dull to those who are emotionally wounded and lacking their self expression.

The only thing the Annunaki for or against shows is why some people in the NOW are different from others.

That is not what ascension is. No one is responsible for that process but the indvidual. The annunaki is not going to give it to anyone. They cannot. The annunanki and the fey, and the sun and the moon can hope and pray all they want that we ascend. But the actual process is internal, not external. So their 'wanting' does nothing. It doesn't provide a tool. In fact some people ascend faster if they detach from having to understand anything because they realize what is being framed at them to be understood is all external static. Attempting to understand what really can't be understood, keeps the mind tied up for a reason. A tied up mind cannot retreat into SELF.

Stories don't do it. Belief hopping from one story to another is not spiritual progress.



:p I'm quite flattered that Unified Serenity thinks I'm using NLP tricks. Perhaps I should use a few? ;)

I'm a former journalist so I write like a story teller, that's all. I know how to engage an audience ... and if that's a sin, you can hang me now. :happy:

I've had to decant a lot of research from my head into this thread and I could just put everything up here like a dry academic paper, but I don't think anyone would want to read it.

Anyway, as my guru used to say, "If I woke up one morning to find that all my enemies had disappeared, I'd wonder what I was doing wrong."

So carry on Unified Serenity ...do your worst! :rain:

[ThePythonicCow]

Story tellers use NLP , because it makes a good STORY.You did mention you were a story teller?

Every good writer knows how to psychologically process the reader by various means. Journalists are not supposed to use NLP they are supposed to report what they see with as little emotional interference as possible. We know by MSM that this is not true anymore.

If one is imparting truth it doesn't need psychological mind ****s. Imparters of wisdom don't have to make a good story because truth is self evident. That's why reading the DVR manual is rather dry . It's imparting , impartially, and in a detached way, the actual mechanism and truth of the matter concerning it. It's helpful if dry. It does something. It teaches YOU to program the DVR, it doesn't program you the way a story will.

Story telling is for programs. Programming. TV programming is based on story telling.

The truth doesn't need a story.

Mod hat off:

Well said 9eagle9. You've captured my personal views better than I could have. Thanks.

Mod had back on:

And appropriately placed in the right thread :P. Thanks.

[Unified Serenity]

Paul,

My apologies if my referring to not being willing to lick anyone's **** covered boots offends. I find it very offensive in many ways how some are allowed to start threads, use inflammatory rhetoric and techniques designed to manipulate and when challenged to back up what they say with facts that person is the one ostracized and told to take it elsewhere. So we shall have our own threads and people can bounce back and forth. My responses were not originally inflammatory or disrespectful. I guess, I come from a place of thought that the things I say can be challenged by someone if they want to do so respectfully and I should answer their questions and have a meaningful dialogue. That is wholly not the methods I see being used by others who wish to attack and not provide documentation to back anything up. I will let this drop now.

[Unified Serenity]

As for the claims of no historical evidence of Jesus / Yeshus of Nazareth and other lies often told about the "fact" that there were many pre-existing Messiah mirroring stories, this video was placed on one of RedEzra's threads. I must admit to being a lazy conned reader as well in this regard. David Icke used the Attis example in one of his books to support this idea that there were many Messiah stories prior to Christianity that had a Son of God / Sun God theme, born of a virgin on Dec. 25, with 12 disciples, who performed miracles, were crucified, died and resurrected three days later. It now appears that all that has been completely debunked by facts. It seems people want to not believe in the life of Yeshua and the accounts of his life, and therefore easily accept scholarly sounding works and books. I am thankful for the following video. The first 25 minutes of which will lay all those false ideas to rest. Please watch and see for yourself. As I said, I have no sacred cows and look for truth. I do not accept this entire video as I have issues with some later parts, but the scholarship on this myth of Horus, Attis, Dionysus, Mithra pre-existing Yeshua's life story with near exact mirror stories is a complete myth:

1hgX6w4U-2o

[Ishtar]

9eagle9, reading this has just made me cry. I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes and a great weight of sadness in my heart, because of the anger I can feel coming out of your post towards me. I feel so sorry that I've offended anyone. It certainly wasn't my intention, and I certainly don't know how to use NLP ~ my writing is very instinctive.

I feel very sad that you and US feel the need to vilify my reputation publicly and with so much anger and hostility. You have been told now by two NLP experts that I'm not using NLP, but still you rage on.

Journalists do write stories. They even refer to an article that they're writing as a 'story'. If they just wrote the dry facts, nobody would want to read them. I have been writing in that way for more than 30 years. I was trained to write engagingly in that way. If I was writing a PhD paper, it would be different, but no-one else writes on this forum giving just the bare facts, and so why should I?

Nowadays, I find it useful to continue to that write that way on forums because it helps people to understand some very dense and complex information more easily.

My sole aim with the thread An examination of the Anunnaki and Planet Nibiru (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37532-An-examination-of-the-Anunnaki-and-the-planet-Nibiru) has been to help people understand the Anunnaki were being presented in a way to scare them, so that they could stop being scared and start to engage with a truer narrative about their ancestors. That was my sole aim. I am nothing to do with Ascensionists. I don't believe in what they do.

I'm very upset and feel so hurt that my efforts have been received in this way to cause so much anger when the very opposite was my aim.

There is a huge school of thought that believes as I do, that Jesus was a mythical sun god, and so I'm not presenting a new or shocking idea and it is well substantiated by a large body of work which I have studied. And so you may not agree with my views, but they were reached honestly and after much consideration. I don't understand why that has caused now TWO threads to be opened in which I'm being attacked for being manipulative, deceitful and unethical (which is the sub-text of saying that I'm using NLP) just because I hold a different view and can write engagingly about it.

If there was a thread on here where someone was writing engagingly about how Jesus was real and died on the cross for our sins, I wouldn't agree but I would just stay out of the thread, and I certainly wouldn't feel the need to start vindictive threads with sole aim of vilifying the reputation of one single poster who I happened to disagree with. It makes me wonder why you and US feel the need to do this.

I actually feel sick now, and my hands are shaking, so I'll go now.

Once again, I'm sorry if I have offended. My only aim was to help.

[ThePythonicCow]

I find it very offensive in many ways how some are allowed to start threads, use inflammatory rhetoric and technipues designed to manipulate and when challenged to back up what they say with facts that person is the one ostracized and told to take it elsewhere. So we shall have our own threads and people can bounce back and forth.
Members are allowed to start and shepherd threads with views that some other members will find outrageous.

Since none of us has a monopoly on the real truth, this is about the best we can do. The forum strives to be the fertile ground in which a variety of plants can grow. Some plants will find others to be weeds. C'est la vie.

[Unified Serenity]

I find it very offensive in many ways how some are allowed to start threads, use inflammatory rhetoric and technipues designed to manipulate and when challenged to back up what they say with facts that person is the one ostracized and told to take it elsewhere. So we shall have our own threads and people can bounce back and forth.
Members are allowed to start and shepherd threads with views that some other members will find outrageous.

Since none of us have a monopoly on the real truth, this is about the best we can do. The forum strives to be the fertile ground in which a variety of plants can grow. Some plants will find others to be weeds. C'est la vie.

This is very true, and I respect that. Thank you Paul.

[Unified Serenity]

Please refer to this post in this thread to see the facts about the historical evidence of Jesus living, and the lies about the prior Messiah stories... it is highly revealing

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37709-Anunnaki-Jesus-and-NLP--split-from-another-thread-&p=392177&viewfull=1#post392177

1hgX6w4U-2o

[mojo]

The split in the thread to include Jesus in with original Anunnaki post is appreciated. Allowing me to ask a spiritually related question without I hope offending anyone. I'm not sure if there are any passages written that Jesus references other life in the universe which might include the Annunnaki. I know the Old Testament has references to UFO's and giants. I would like to hear someones viewpoints from the New Testament. I think many pastors of churches have a difficult time and immediately turn the idea of UFO's and Anunnaki into demonic only. I'm not saying there aren't negative forces like this, just not all. In a way I can understand why a Pastor would feel this way because the path to salvation does not include belief in this subject Thanks
mojo

[9eagle9]

So...There's your wound. Walk your talk and blow it. Because I'm not so easily manipulated by feelings. Be the healer you claim to be and use this reaction to heal yourself.

You are feeling your anger, because you feel yoru belief system is failing you. We only feel our own emotions. Why should I be angry. You're beleif system isn't failing me. Thats why I put them in their proper place--they fail people.

I'm not responsible for your wounds. IOr your beliefs. 've never contributed to them, I didn't impose them on you . We are given this life to manage, and it's ours to manage. Manage ourselves. Not each other. If we were all standing in our own power and wisdom there would be no need of managing.

And this inability to reframe from your story, to the point of emotional distress, pretty much emphasizes that beleif systems don't serve us. We know the past doesn't serve us because as we can tell it can be rewritten at any time. If can break down a belief that easily.... chances are its not that dependable in the first place.

You're not breaking down Ishtar, your belief is. Its not good for you. Who you really are is what is good to you.

This is when Spirit amplifies crap for us to REALLY see it. So see it or deny it. To find out how much self mastery you've really intiated for yourself before you start imposing it on others.

I'm not taking responsbility for it because I'm not the manager of your life. You are. No more than my emotional reactions are the fault of others. My reaction mechanisms were in place before anyone else here in this ever came along to push my buttons.

Spiritual masters don't roam the hallways wringing their hands and weeping unless they are attempting a equal emotional response in others. And that is manipulative. And while I commiserate with you as these sorts of challenges ambush everyone on their spirtual path...I could not be in my higher expression by responding to very base emo reaction as opposed to a response. If your beief serves you it would support you,not leave you out in the wind crying.

We are not our feelings. We are not our mind. Be the person that you claim you are behind all those emo mechanisms and you'd not be crying right now. Be the fruits of your labor and they will express through you. Now you have people that will self identify with you and they will get all in a emo state too, and that's how conflict is created.

One of first emotional healing processes is that no one can push your buttons unless you have a unhealed wound or button to be pushed. Our beliefs systems, our stories crumble . If what you are imparting about yourself and your story is real there is NOTHING i could say to break it.

No one ever argues about wisdom or truth, we get in conflicts over stories and beliefs. We are dividing ourselves over fictions because the story becomes realer than what we really are. Who you really are doesn't cry over the loss of stories. It grows in inner truth and self expression.

Spiritual mastery is self mastery. It's not abscense of feelings its detachment from our feelings because our feelings are not who we really are. Many of our feelings as we know were imposed on us long before we can consciously recall them.





9eagle9, reading this has just made me cry. I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes and a great weight of sadness in my heart, because of the anger I can feel coming out of your post towards me. I feel so sorry that I've offended anyone. It certainly wasn't my intention, and I certainly don't know how to use NLP ~ my writing is very instinctive.

I feel very sad that you and US feel the need to vilify my reputation publicly and with so much anger and hostility. You have been told now by two NLP experts that I'm not using NLP, but still you rage on.

Journalists do write stories. They even refer to an article that they're writing as a 'story'. If they just wrote the dry facts, nobody would want to read them. I have been writing in that way for more than 30 years. I was trained to write engagingly in that way. If I was writing a PhD paper, it would be different, but no-one else writes on this forum giving just the bare facts, and so why should I?

Nowadays, I find it useful to continue to that write that way on forums because it helps people to understand some very dense and complex information more easily.

My sole aim with the thread An examination of the Anunnaki and Planet Nibiru (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37532-An-examination-of-the-Anunnaki-and-the-planet-Nibiru) has been to help people understand the Anunnaki were being presented in a way to scare them, so that they could stop being scared and start to engage with a truer narrative about their ancestors. That was my sole aim. I am nothing to do with Ascensionists. I don't believe in what they do.

I'm very upset and feel so hurt that my efforts have been received in this way to cause so much anger when the very opposite was my aim.

There is a huge school of thought that believes as I do, that Jesus was a mythical sun god, and so I'm not presenting a new or shocking idea and it is well substantiated by a large body of work which I have studied. And so you may not agree with my views, but they were reached honestly and after much consideration. I don't understand why that has caused now TWO threads to be opened in which I'm being attacked for being manipulative, deceitful and unethical (which is the sub-text of saying that I'm using NLP) just because I hold a different view and can write engagingly about it.

If there was a thread on here where someone was writing engagingly about how Jesus was real and died on the cross for our sins, I wouldn't agree but I would just stay out of the thread, and I certainly wouldn't feel the need to start vindictive threads with sole aim of vilifying the reputation of one single poster who I happened to disagree with. It makes me wonder why you and US feel the need to do this.

I actually feel sick now, and my hands are shaking, so I'll go now.

Once again, I'm sorry if I have offended. My only aim was to help.

[Unified Serenity]

Amen and thank you 9eagle9. This is truth in it's purest form for me. This is why I am here. I am going to look within, see my own wounds and reasons why certain buttons are pushed. I have identified two of them. They are mine, and I am the one who has to deal with them.

I am not a man, but I have often heard men in dismay who though in the right are hung out to dry because they "made her cry". This is not in reference to anyone here, this is something I am beginning to understand. What can he do then? The points he was trying to address, the issue at hand all of it is mute then because "she" pulled the crying card! He knows he's now the bad guy. It's not about her spending $2000.00 on a purse when they needed to fix the car and that was all they had and now how is he going to get to work dependably? It's about the fact that she is crying and he's the bad guy. I see red. I am pissed. Why? What button has this analogy pushed in me? I see this sort of thing played out on this forum, in alternative media, whatever. Take Jimmy Swaggert caught with a hooker. His fault, his sin, he goes on a crying spree. Now, we all identify with our own wounds of doing wrong and getting caught. We want to be forgiven and not abandoned by our friends and careers ruined.

I see red.

I am mad and hurt because of the bullsh!t and not owning up to simple facts and taking our medicine. I am defensive too often. I do get aggressive too often. I have my gentle side some have seen here. In the arena of ideas I am not gentle, but stick to facts. I react to the emotion card strongly. I feel manipulated. There's that other button. Why does it piss me off to feel manipulated?

I need to examine this more fully. Thank you 9eagle9. Self work sucks, but it's the most enlightening and healing. Mods forgive me for my words which may have stung. i was not referring to your sh!t covered boots by the way, but by those I feel who are here enjoying the game of manipulation and getting their way to have threads split, not defend their words, and other issues. It was not the best choice of words, but I tend to speak colorfully in word pictures when my buttons are pushed. So, please forgive me if you felt attacked. That was not my intent.

Serenity


So...There's your wound. Walk your talk and blow it. Because I'm not so easily manipulated by feelings. Be the healer you claim to be and use this reaction to heal yourself.

You are feeling your anger, because you feel yoru belief system is failing you. We only feel our own emotions. Why should I be angry. You're beleif system isn't failing me. Thats why I put them in their proper place--they fail people.

I'm not responsible for your wounds. IOr your beliefs. 've never contributed to them, I didn't impose them on you . We are given this life to manage, and it's ours to manage. Manage ourselves. Not each other. If we were all standing in our own power and wisdom there would be no need of managing.

And this inability to reframe from your story, to the point of emotional distress, pretty much emphasizes that beleif systems don't serve us. We know the past doesn't serve us because as we can tell it can be rewritten at any time. If can break down a belief that easily.... chances are its not that dependable in the first place.

You're not breaking down Ishtar, your belief is. Its not good for you. Who you really are is what is good to you.

This is when Spirit amplifies crap for us to REALLY see it. So see it or deny it. To find out how much self mastery you've really intiated for yourself before you start imposing it on others.

I'm not taking responsbility for it because I'm not the manager of your life. You are. No more than my emotional reactions are the fault of others. My reaction mechanisms were in place before anyone else here in this ever came along to push my buttons.

Spiritual masters don't roam the hallways wringing their hands and weeping unless they are attempting a equal emotional response in others. And that is manipulative. And while I commiserate with you as these sorts of challenges ambush everyone on their spirtual path...I could not be in my higher expression by responding to very base emo reaction as opposed to a response. If your beief serves you it would support you,not leave you out in the wind crying.

We are not our feelings. We are not our mind. Be the person that you claim you are behind all those emo mechanisms and you'd not be crying right now. Be the fruits of your labor and they will express through you. Now you have people that will self identify with you and they will get all in a emo state too, and that's how conflict is created.

One of first emotional healing processes is that no one can push your buttons unless you have a unhealed wound or button to be pushed. Our beliefs systems, our stories crumble . If what you are imparting about yourself and your story is real there is NOTHING i could say to break it.

No one ever argues about wisdom or truth, we get in conflicts over stories and beliefs. We are dividing ourselves over fictions because the story becomes realer than what we really are. Who you really are doesn't cry over the loss of stories. It grows in inner truth and self expression.

Spiritual mastery is self mastery. It's not abscense of feelings its detachment from our feelings because our feelings are not who we really are. Many of our feelings as we know were imposed on us long before we can consciously recall them.





9eagle9, reading this has just made me cry. I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes and a great weight of sadness in my heart, because of the anger I can feel coming out of your post towards me. I feel so sorry that I've offended anyone. It certainly wasn't my intention, and I certainly don't know how to use NLP ~ my writing is very instinctive.

I feel very sad that you and US feel the need to vilify my reputation publicly and with so much anger and hostility. You have been told now by two NLP experts that I'm not using NLP, but still you rage on.

Journalists do write stories. They even refer to an article that they're writing as a 'story'. If they just wrote the dry facts, nobody would want to read them. I have been writing in that way for more than 30 years. I was trained to write engagingly in that way. If I was writing a PhD paper, it would be different, but no-one else writes on this forum giving just the bare facts, and so why should I?

Nowadays, I find it useful to continue to that write that way on forums because it helps people to understand some very dense and complex information more easily.

My sole aim with the thread An examination of the Anunnaki and Planet Nibiru (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37532-An-examination-of-the-Anunnaki-and-the-planet-Nibiru) has been to help people understand the Anunnaki were being presented in a way to scare them, so that they could stop being scared and start to engage with a truer narrative about their ancestors. That was my sole aim. I am nothing to do with Ascensionists. I don't believe in what they do.

I'm very upset and feel so hurt that my efforts have been received in this way to cause so much anger when the very opposite was my aim.

There is a huge school of thought that believes as I do, that Jesus was a mythical sun god, and so I'm not presenting a new or shocking idea and it is well substantiated by a large body of work which I have studied. And so you may not agree with my views, but they were reached honestly and after much consideration. I don't understand why that has caused now TWO threads to be opened in which I'm being attacked for being manipulative, deceitful and unethical (which is the sub-text of saying that I'm using NLP) just because I hold a different view and can write engagingly about it.

If there was a thread on here where someone was writing engagingly about how Jesus was real and died on the cross for our sins, I wouldn't agree but I would just stay out of the thread, and I certainly wouldn't feel the need to start vindictive threads with sole aim of vilifying the reputation of one single poster who I happened to disagree with. It makes me wonder why you and US feel the need to do this.

I actually feel sick now, and my hands are shaking, so I'll go now.

Once again, I'm sorry if I have offended. My only aim was to help.

[Kristin]

Ishtar,
I would suggest a little academic reading, Elaine Pagles comes to mind. Jesus existed in the flesh. There is a vast amount of evidence supporting this. I've looked into the debunking sites on ZS and I would call them less then academic. Yes, there are predated cultures that were in existence before the Sumarians. True. But this does not in itself Debunk anyone. True also that many religions are the reflection of the same story. ZS has also spoken on this topic as have many others. But that does not mean that the man "Jesus" historically did not exist. The statement that the Annunaki are a peaceful enlightened race that can only be contacted through the religion of LOVE is a dangerous one. We do not know the intentions of any given race of beings. I do not know what the intentions of Alien lifeforms are, I would not pretend to know. I like the conversation, but thus far I haven't read anything that leads to credibility on your theory. I think it is wise and good to question EVERYTHING, and for that I thank you.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

[gripreaper]

Read "Anna, Grandmother of Jesus" by Claire Heartsong to find out the true story of when Yeshua walked the planet, straight from the eyes of she who was there. This book is in the top 5 books I've read in my entire life, and I've read thousands of books, and I highly recommend this book.

http://lightrivermedia.com/

Then, let's open a new thread.

[CdnSirian]

I got lost with the whole split thread aspect here - and I need to read this whole thread through again. So, quick reply. The book "The Hiram Key' claims to present proof of Jesus as an actual living person. Wish I knew. There are no "bare facts" it seems, about the life of Jesus, or the reality of the Anunnaki. There are simply no bare facts.

The Jesus message (Peace on earth, the brotherhood of Man), is cool by me, whether he lived or not. Or whether or not his story is a re-write of the Sun God story (I have heard the Jordan Maxwell version), ...how do we know. No bare facts.

Wade Frazier points out in his threads and voluminous web site, that most science is theory - no facts - no one has yet seen a wave or a particle converting to the other, but they see the conversions.

I am not a journalist nor a (as of yet) published author. I am a writer. My personal experience is that journalists are taught to write in a NLP style fashion, to manipulate, to really condescend to their readers. That does not mean that they consciously do this or are cynical about the human race. But the "everybody knows" or "most people think" or "the few who fell for this" type of phrasing is ubiquitous in journalism. Hey, everyone has an editor to please.

If we are to believe that the media, that Hollywood, is there to manipulate us, what writer is exempt? See what I mean? If I cannot write a screenplay and deal with the violence, sex (porn, not real sex), manipulation, and over-sexualizing of children, why should I expect to sell it? Yeah, depressing.

I hate to see 2 writers like US and Ishtar get into a firefight over this. Or get into over-apologizing, though 9eagle9 (is she a helicopter pilot?) makes good points.

I would like to emulate some of the qualities I see in those 3 writers--posters. I see manipulation everywhere. So I am thinking that although I feel it very much on this kind of thread, doesn't mean it's coming directly from the posters. Is that too out-there? Am I still just in my bubble?

Are we just bubbles floating around bouncing off each other? (no I am not on anything). I take you all seriously and thoughtfully. And a couple of channelers too, just to disclose. :)

[Unified Serenity]

Read "Anna, Grandmother of Jesus" by Claire Heartsong to find out the true story of when Yeshua walked the planet, straight from the eyes of she who was there. This book is in the top 5 books I've read in my entire life, and I've read thousands of books, and I highly recommend this book.

http://lightrivermedia.com/

Then, let's open a new thread.

Thanks for posting this as everyone's experiences are important to me especially if they have something they can explain and give proofs to. I just read on the story of how this book came about and I have to say, I highly suspect anything given in some spirit revelation. So, what made this book so important for you? Did it share anything proven factual that could be verified? From the website it says:

"One day while in meditation in the late 1980’s Anna (also known at St. Anne), appeared to Claire and said that no one knew her story. She asked Claire if she would be willing to write the story of her life as Anna.

It took Claire ten years to finally be ready to fulfill that request. This is the remarkable book that emerged out of that promise to be the conduit for Anna sharing about her life and experiences.







Through

Anna, Grandmother of Jesus

You’ll...





Ÿ

Meet Anna, the extraordinary woman who birthed a Spiritual Lineage that changed the world!

[Where in the bible does it give Miriam's mother's name? Anne is a church tradition, but is there factual proof?]


Ÿ

Learn of her use of cellular rejuvenation to achieve remarkable life span of more than 600 years.

[Did you learn how to do this rejuvenation? Have you seen visible proof of it's working? I have a leg that needs some rejuvenation after I almost lost it in 2000 in a car accident.]


Ÿ

Discover missing pieces of history concerning whom she, Mary and Jesus really were, what they did and the unknown places they went

[This is a hotly debated and unproven issue about where Jesus spent his "lost" years. Does the book provide proof or is it this spirit's tale only?]


Ÿ

Understand the important role of the Essenes at Mount Carmel in supporting the holy family and the other crucial participants in the Christ drama

[I study the Essene community and they lived a very different lifestyle than the one Jesus taught in the bible. I like aspects of the Essenes, but the dead sea scrolls definitely do not talk about Jesus or his family as far as my studies go. What proof does this book give for this incredible claim?]

Ÿ

Witness the challenging and demanding initiations required of Anna, Mary, Jesus and the disciples to complete the crucifixion, resurrection & ascension

[This is highly unbiblical. There is no initiation. There is Belief, confession, and Mikvah, that's it, there is no mystery. Again, proof of these claims please?]


Ÿ

Be opened to the activations and messages that bring the feminine principle into your daily spiritual life completing your “path of initiation” begun long ago

[So, is this the crux of the book to be open to some new path of initiation into some new feminine Goddess path on the skirts of Messiah's life?]

My questions are sincere. I believe this book means a lot to you. Please help me understand why and if it offers proofs before I shell out $18.oo if it's all just channelled information that must be taken on faith.

Thanks for the help.

[Ishtar]

Ishtar, you also claim to be the reincarnation of "Ishtar" herself. Interesting.

I have never claimed to be an incarnation of Ishtar and I am not an incarnation of Ishtar.

I am tired of these unfounded lies about me and baseless personal attacks on my integrity and reputation.

Whatever religion you are in, I would never want to join.

[CdnSirian]

Unified Serenity,

What you've just mounted is called an ad hominem attack because you're attacking me, not the argument, by making unsupported accusations about the motives behind the narrative I've provided which imply I'm trying somehow to deceive or just making it all up, whereas I've come to my views honestly through decades of long hard study.

I don't want to take this thread off course by discussing the historicity of Jesus, but I'm satisfied that he never existed as a real historical character through research and discovering there is no evidence for his life, and also by contacting him as a spirit. For that reason, I am entitled to come to a different view without being considered evil or having been manipulated into my views by an evil regime, and so your accusations are without foundation and, in fact, unjust and unfair.

I don't see an attack here Ishtar. Just an ongoing discussion.

[Ishtar]

I don't see an attack here Ishtar. Just an ongoing discussion.

The subtext of the accusation that deliberately using NLP and other under-the-table tactics to persuade people is that I must be manipulative, deceitful and I was at one point in that thread called evil, or at least aligned with an evil regime. I call that a personal attack.

Since then, it's got worse.

There are now two threads on this forum that are all about me and how awful I am.

The thread purporting to be an objective report about NLP and forums is actually all about me. Even when the NLP expert came on to explain to Unified Serenity how I'm not using NLP, she still insisted on repeating all her claims about me in her OP and insisting that they were wrong, even though they were an NLP professional.

This thread we're in now is pretty much now all about me.

I'm being accused of things I've never done, either here or anywhere, like saying I'm a reincarnation of the goddess Ishtar.

I've got 9eagle9 and Unified Serenity giving me a good kicking, in this thread.

How is none of this not a personal attack?

It's OK, you don't have to answer. It was a rhetorical question. I know I'm under personal attack. I just don't understand why. And please don't answer that unless you've got something kind to say, because I can't really take much more of this beating.

[Kristin]

Hey there fellow Canadian Sirian,

"The Jesus message (Peace on earth, the brotherhood of Man), is cool by me, whether he lived or not. Or whether or not his story is a re-write of the Sun God story (I have heard the Jordan Maxwell version), ...how do we know. No bare facts." - CS

You made great points. The historical documentation on Jesus having been alive is the same in comparison to say Cleopatra, for instance. Much was written about him by others about his life. This is supportive evidence to be sure and not hard evidence as Jesus apparently didn't write about himself. Cleopatra also didn't write about herself, yet through historical documents her presence on the planet is known. The earliest writing found to date are about 30-40 years after his death, via carbon dating from the Nag Hammadi artifacts. Many scholars reflected that Poncius Pilate may not have even existed... until in 1961 when the "Pilate Stone" was discovered verifying his existence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone.

From the Heart,
Wormhole

Ishtar,
I was quoting you, but I may have been in error. I'll try to find the post to present. However, If I am in error, I'm sorry and have no issue admitting it.
Worm

[gripreaper]

So, what made this book so important for you? Did it share anything proven factual that could be verified

This book, juxtaposed through the lens of empiricism and the left brain of the polarized patriarch, will not resonate. One of the edicts of this paradigm is that time is linear and that reality is viewed sequentially and can be verified through the five senses, and is relative to the 92 elements in the periodic chart, as solid, with the ability to either combine them, or change them.

In the photonic quantum field energetic matrix of all that is, time is spherical and all energy resides within that matrix in the present moment, and reality is malleable as light packets oscillating between two polarities, at different velocity, which causes animation and matter to appear.

So yes, Claire has tapped into this energy and "channeled" Anna, and the energy is "encoded" to touch each individual who reads it right where they are. I've read this book at least six times, and each time, it touched me differently based on my own awakening.

So, if you are looking for empirical proof, this book is not for you. If you can filter this book through your own energy field, specifically your heart chakra, with a mind that has both hemispheres in balance, then it may resonate with you. It did for me.

[Unified Serenity]

I don't see an attack here Ishtar. Just an ongoing discussion.

The subtext of the accusation that deliberately using NLP and other under-the-table tactics to persuade people is that I must be manipulative, deceitful and I was at one point in that thread called evil, or at least aligned with an evil regime. I call that a personal attack.

Since then, it's got worse.

There are now two threads on this forum that are all about me and how awful I am.

The thread purporting to be an objective report about NLP and forums is actually all about me. Even when the NLP expert came on to explain to Unified Serenity how I'm not using NLP, she still insisted on repeating all her claims about me in her OP and insisting that they were wrong, even though they were an NLP professional.

This thread we're in now is pretty much now all about me.

I'm being accused of things I've never done, either here or anywhere, like saying I'm a reincarnation of the goddess Ishtar.

I've got 9eagle9 and Unified Serenity giving me a good kicking, in this thread.

How is none of this not a personal attack?

It's OK, you don't have to answer. It was a rhetorical question. I know I'm under personal attack. I just don't understand why. And please don't answer that unless you've got something kind to say, because I can't really take much more of this beating.

Saying these things does not make them so Ishtar. I asked to have a discussion on what you put forth as facts, and you said basially, "No, go start your own thread" which is sort of baseless as I wanted to discuss it with you, but ok, so I did what you asked me to do and now I'm the bad guy. I have put for my evidence refuting what you wrote. I have provided multiple verifiable resources for historic proofs and I have even debunked all the lies about there being all these prior stories of exact Messiah myths. Have you watched that video I posted? Can you address any of that to support these ideas that Yeshua/ Jesus never existed? That's quite a claim which I see no verification of. You chose to not discuss this and told me to address it on another thread.

I had several issues on your thread, and I think I have laid out those issues. I think 9eagle9 laid out her views very well and was not attacking. Saying one is under attack does not make it so. I see manipulative words and pointed it out where I saw the manipulation. You don't like the word NLP, fine. I shared the definitions of it. Some want to focus on audio, touch, and visual NLP only. It is quite clear words can be used to open people up to believe something which may or may not be good for them.

I will take your tact and say, we are not agreeing on this so let's agree to disagree, and leave it there. I know I was not attacking you the person, I was addressing what you said on a different thread as you requested that I do.

Serenity

[CdnSirian]

I don't see an attack here Ishtar. Just an ongoing discussion.

The subtext of the accusation that deliberately using NLP and other under-the-table tactics to persuade people is that I must be manipulative, deceitful and I was at one point in that thread called evil, or at least aligned with an evil regime. I call that a personal attack.

Since then, it's got worse.

There are now two threads on this forum that are all about me and how awful I am.

The thread purporting to be an objective report about NLP and forums is actually all about me. Even when the NLP expert came on to explain to Unified Serenity how I'm not using NLP, she still insisted on repeating all her claims about me in her OP and insisting that they were wrong, even though they were an NLP professional.

This thread we're in now is pretty much now all about me.

I'm being accused of things I've never done, either here or anywhere, like saying I'm a reincarnation of the goddess Ishtar.

I've got 9eagle9 and Unified Serenity giving me a good kicking, in this thread.

How is none of this not a personal attack?

It's OK, you don't have to answer. It was a rhetorical question. I know I'm under personal attack. I just don't understand why. And please don't answer that unless you've got something kind to say, because I can't really take much more of this beating.

I don't mean to say or imply anything unkind to anyone. Perhaps I need to read all these interrelated threads again - just can't retain all the details.

Regards, all.

[Kristin]

Ishtar,
I tried to find the post that I read but was unable to. So I retract my statement.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

New Post reads as follows:
"Ishtar,
I would suggest a little academic reading, Elaine Pagles comes to mind. Jesus existed in the flesh. There is a vast amount of evidence supporting this. I've looked into the debunking sites on ZS and I would call them less then academic. Yes, there are predated cultures that were in existence before the Sumarians. True. But this does not in itself Debunk anyone. True also that many religions are the reflection of the same story. ZS has also spoken on this topic as have many others. But that does not mean that the man "Jesus" historically did not exist. The statement that the Annunaki are a peaceful enlightened race that can only be contacted through the religion of LOVE is a dangerous one. We do not know the intentions of any given race of beings. I do not know what the intentions of Alien lifeforms are, I would not pretend to know. I like the conversation, but thus far I haven't read anything that leads to credibility on your theory. I think it is wise and good to question EVERYTHING, and for that I thank you.
From the Heart,
Wormhole"

[Ishtar]

Ishtar,
I tried to find the post that I read but was unable to. So I retract my statement.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

You were unable to find it because it doesn't and didn't exist. But this fire fight is geting out of control, and people are making so many wild imaginings about me, it's easy to join in, I suppose.

I really can't take this anymore, and now that my integrity has been so dragged through my mud, there's no point in me posting on Project Avalon anymore. Goodbye to all the good friends I made on here ... you know who you are.

[Kristin]

Sorry to hear that you are leaving. It was great for me to revisit some information that you presented and to question reality once again. I'm sorry that my attempt at a conversation was seen as an attack.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

[Jeffrey]

And please don't answer that unless you've got something kind to say, because I can't really take much more of this beating.

ISHTAR!!!

You wonderful, lovely, person you! Here's a big, warm internet hug. :hug:

Take a step back, a deep breath and look at things objectively for a second. Your doing a great job here, just keep playin' your part.

A million thanks to you for all of your contributions! :)


Now, I would like to state that I am a Christian; not an establishment Christian. History for me (in this regard) is unimportant. Jesus is my Iswara. His teachings help me on my path. I read other teachings too, and I don't subscribe to the superstitions that many modern day Christians do. I don't try and shove bibles down peoples throat (or tell them to get in line behind satan ;)). This is my path. My path. History (for me) doesn't change the true essence behind the indoctrination of Christ's teachings. Whether he existed in the flesh or not (I think he did) doesn't matter to me. I believe in Him enough to aspire to emulate his character. People have their own Christ, Bhudda, or some other Iswara. Leave the history to hobby, it shouldn't matter for spiritual aspirants.

[Kristin]

Vivek,
You've got a true heart! I second that hug!:cool:
From the Heart,
Wormhole

[Dawn]

I have been watching this thread with interest. It is interesting because of the patterns in consciousness being played out here ... and in full public view. Yet their does not seem to be a lot of conscious awareness of how these archetypical patterns are playing everyone. In all that we do, these patterns rule our behavior, unless we work to recognize them and decide not to allow them to play though us. I'd like to bring these into clarity for others on this thread and for me as well with this little post. There are 2 parts to this, emotions, and archetypes.

EMOTIONS:
Lester Levenson, founder of the Sedona method believed that 'emotions ARE the programs that run us all'. I am inclined to agree with him after doing emotional releasing work for many years. For example, if you are feeling joy it will not occur to you to commit suicide. (Duh! Pretty simple huh?) One of the emotions that catches us all and can end up gripping us for a long time is arrogance. We all have this from time to time. (and if you think you're immune then I'd like to suggest that you have not spent time observing yourself deeply) The hallmark of being caught in arrogance is that (1) You feel you know it all and are RIGHT! (2) You have the answers (3) You do not experience compassion.

In Lester's chart of emotions, which I think is spot on.... there are a number of frequencies of emotion which he called hate and as they raise in frequency from lowest to highest here they are:
apathy *** grief *** fear *** anger *** lust *** pride *** and the lower octave of courage.
These are all forms of HATE, because when you are experiencing these frequencies you are focused on being separate from others, rather than inclusive. Actions taken when you are experiencing these emotions move you into a place of more separation from the 'others' around you.

Then there are the frequencies of LOVE, which are still emotions, by the way. Here they are in ascending order by frequency:
upper octave of courage *** joy *** love *** acceptance *** peace
These are love frequencies because when you are experiencing them you feel inclusive of others and your actions are pro-communion with the 'others'

When someone takes action from an emotion of hate is is painful to others, but the most pain comes from the highest frequencies of HATE... and those would be arrogance and courage. If you are 'attacked' by someone who is temporarily stuck in arrogance it hurts like hell... because it is pure hate aimed at you with a very strong energetic wind behind it.

Look carefully at the posts on this page and you will see a couple that are squarely in this emotion. The posters are not aware of it, because when we (you and I) are caught in arrogance we cannot see it. Sad but true.

ARCHETYPES:

Archetypes spring into action to re-create the drama and trauma of living in 3D. One of the biggest ones I see is the PERPETRATOR/VICTIM pattern. I'm afraid I am still learning not to get caught in this one. I usually play the victim, but on occasion I can play a pretty good perp. Look over the above posts and you will see this archetypical pattern in effect. Now, just in case we think any of us are immune to falling into this pattern, begin looking closely at your life and you will see it everywhere. Here are some obvious examples:
police/criminals,
PTB/humans,
plaintiffs/defendents,
rapists/victims
In fact it is pretty hard to go through a day on earth without seeing it play out around you dozens of times.

I know this thread is not about this topic, but what a grand opportunity to really look at what is happening. This is what we need to become conscious of.... This is what we need to become free of ... in order to raise our frequencies and in order to become truly sovereign.

[Unified Serenity]

So, what made this book so important for you? Did it share anything proven factual that could be verified

This book, juxtaposed through the lens of empiricism and the left brain of the polarized patriarch, will not resonate. One of the edicts of this paradigm is that time is linear and that reality is viewed sequentially and can be verified through the five senses, and is relative to the 92 elements in the periodic chart, as solid, with the ability to either combine them, or change them.

In the photonic quantum field energetic matrix of all that is, time is spherical and all energy resides within that matrix in the present moment, and reality is malleable as light packets oscillating between two polarities, at different velocity, which causes animation and matter to appear.

So yes, Claire has tapped into this energy and "channeled" Anna, and the energy is "encoded" to touch each individual who reads it right where they are. I've read this book at least six times, and each time, it touched me differently based on my own awakening.

So, if you are looking for empirical proof, this book is not for you. If you can filter this book through your own energy field, specifically your heart chakra, with a mind that has both hemispheres in balance, then it may resonate with you. It did for me.

Thanks for the rundown Gripreaper. You're right, this book is not for me. I'm pretty comfortable with understanding the spirit realm and energy matrix right now. That information in the book obviously has helped some. I do read for pleasure and uplifting information, but right now that would not appeal to me. I think I will dig out my copy of "Hinds Feet in High Places" as that book is transformative for me and can be read yearly as far as I am concerned.

Much love,

Serenity

[CeltMan]

[Mod-edit: The first 44 posts of this thread were originally posted to the thread An examination of the Anunnaki and the planet Nibiru (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37532-An-examination-of-the-Anunnaki-and-the-planet-Nibiru/). These posts were split off to this separate to avoid derailing their original thread. See further my Post #45 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37709-Anunnaki-Jesus-and-NLP--split-from-another-thread-&p=391865&viewfull=1#post391865), below. -- Paul.]

===



If we don't at least produce the evidence in the first place, then we can make up anything we like as we go along and then just say "Oh well, the establishment buried it."

We have to stay open-minded, of course. But not so much that our brains fall out.



look at my link above and see the evidence

if you're not impressed then look into it or drop the notion

like you've dropped the Bible without verification


it's not a secret that all the cultures of the world share stories about giants

who do you think built Stonehedge ?

Hi Folks,

I was going to post this as a seperate thread, but as it seems relevant here..

It is about the seen (regularly) and wittnessed giants on the Solomon Islands
The 'Little ones' are 12 fet tall(is that tall enough?..no,...lol) and the bigguns are 18 feet tall!!
(Also skeletons have been found worldwide of creatures of humanoid apprearance that were same height)
They have been wittnesses by very credible locals such as lawywrs, vicars, etc and many more.

They apparently used to come down regularly from the mountans and cause havoc in the town.
Also, UFO's have been seen regulary flying in and out of sea at base of the mountains.

There is some mystery as to why the Australian Army, has been there in force over recent years.
(The Truth is Out there!)

Enjoy

CMan...................& a Happy New Year to one & all!!

http://www.solomonislandsmysteries.com/SOLOMON_ISLANDS_MYSTERIES/Articles/Entries/2009/2/13_What_are_the_Giants.html

[Unified Serenity]

Really interesting post as usual Dawn. I am very interested in pursuing this because I can see what you are referring to on my side and others. As a service to me would you kindly think of starting yet another thread about this because I do think it would be incredible. I am not afraid to look at myself and posts. I know I can be aggressive when I feel a certain unfairness or rudeness sent to me that I perceive as a tactic to shut me up etc.. I am very interested for selfish reasons to want to explore these archetypes and I want to pick your brain and work together all of us, for I believe many of our problems are faults in communication, not being heard, misreading "tone", and motivations. Most of us if we could sit around a campfire with calm spiritual energy might find we are not so far apart in our paths views.

So please consider it, I think it would be useful, but possibly time consuming on your part.

Thanks,

Serenity

[Arrowwind]

I have been watching this thread with interest. It is interesting because of the patterns in consciousness being played out here ... and in full public view. Yet their does not seem to be a lot of conscious awareness of how these archetypical patterns are playing everyone. In all that we do, these patterns rule our behavior, unless we work to recognize them and decide not to allow them to play though us. I'd like to bring these into clarity for others on this thread and for me as well with this little post. There are 2 parts to this, emotions, and archetypes.

EMOTIONS:
Lester Levenson, founder of the Sedona method believed that 'emotions ARE the programs that run us all'. I am inclined to agree with him after doing emotional releasing work for many years. For example, if you are feeling joy it will not occur to you to commit suicide. (Duh! Pretty simple huh?) One of the emotions that catches us all and can end up gripping us for a long time is arrogance. We all have this from time to time. (and if you think you're immune then I'd like to suggest that you have not spent time observing yourself deeply) The hallmark of being caught in arrogance is that (1) You feel you know it all and are RIGHT! (2) You have the answers (3) You do not experience compassion.



I too have been trailing on this thread but just too dumbfounded to make a comment... thank you for saying what perhaps I might have said if I took the time to sort it out.

Clearly emotions - energy in motion - can be a dark arrow or a light arrow. A dark arrow attempts to take us to our death, a light arrow splits us open to new opportunity.

I just dont like getting into these historical arguements. I cant prove anything and I don't believe others can prove anything either. Its all just a gestalt for reflection of who we are inside, IMHO. There is no right or wrong IMHO ... but clearly some here feel that there is and I honor that. In our rigthness we can learn just as much as when we dwell in our wrongness.

One really might find great opportunity to reflect on the emotions they contain when they are happening, sadness, greif, feelings of loss, isoliation, hatred, anger, resentment, and arrogance has all been present in this thread, all becasue beliefs have been challenged, not just on the topic of Jesus and the Anunnaki, but in self core beliefs of who individuals think they are and what they value, never mind at how people come to approaching their learning and exploration.

Its all good. It will be best when one can fully empower themselves to not let emotions run them and hold their center of power in nonjudgement also accepting that each individual holds a distinctively different path to their evolution. Respect can go a long way for lighting the path for one another.

But then again I am not immune. I got banned here for a couple of days for insinutating that someone held an arrogant point of view and was pushing it on others. That comment was made out of a resentment of their judgement... imagine that!;)

[Ishtar]

I just know that I came back from a lovely day out with my gorgeous little granddaughter, who loves me so much she keeps flinging her arms around me with a big, soppy grin on her face, and then I put on my computer to well... all this .. and I cried.

I don't normally cry. I'm normally pretty tough. But my heart chakra was wide open after being in such loving company all day, and I suddenly did not want to be here anymore, in all this self-righteous, arrogant hatred and distrust ... of me and my motives. That's how it felt. So I just said how it made me feel and was quite graphic about describing my feelings. Of course, if I hadn't been feeling so hurt I would have realised that I would be accused of playing for the sympathy vote. I can assure you, I wasn't. It was live it was real and I was bleeding and why should I have to hide it when I didn't cause it? I don't think that makes me a victim, but maybe I'm just not getting it.

Anyway, after many conversations here with people, I've decided not to leave but I will be taking a break for a few days and then I'll review the situation again after that.

Before I go, let me address this whole Christianity thing, so you can at least see where I was coming from.

I could have answered you chapter and verse on why I said what I did about the philosophy schools in Rome because, unlike a lot in the history of Christianity, this scenario of what happened in Rome in the 3rd century is very well attested and there is documentary evidence for the discussions the other philosophy schools were having about this problem of the tiny literalist school. Justin Martyr tried to join one of these philosophy schools and was turned down because of literalist views, because everyone knew from this that he had missed the point of the whole story and hadn't received the Mystery teachings and so was therefore unteachable.

I know this, because I studied and argued with others on forums about the historicity of Jesus for years and years, and I really had to examine the evidence while I was forming my own view (and wormhole, this included Elaine Pagels whose belief rests on very slender evidence which many consider to be debunked). I know the arguments inside out and I know how long it goes on and how distracting it is, and how emotionally wrought the thread gets. Why it goes on for so long is because there is no one killer fact on either side of the argument which lays it to rest. So in the end, you have to just take a view and I've taken mine for which I should be respected as I respect others.

I know some of you think it is cut and dried and cannot for the life of you understand why anyone can't see that Jesus really lived. What you may not realise is that there is next to nothing outside of the Bible which points to a historical Jesus, and what little there is has been proved to be forgeries. The main commentators of the time do not mention Jesus or any of the stories in the gospels. Added to that, you cannot expect a mythologist to read the Bible as anything other than mythology, because when you study ancient myths around the world, you see so many similarities to the much younger Jesus story which was concocted in Rome by Romans. Have you never wondered why most Jews don't believe in Jesus, when he was supposed to have come from Jerusalem. That's because there's no evidence that he ever lived there or Nazareth .. or anywhere.

The other thing I found was that you can't use logic to dissolve an idea which was never reached by logic in the first place and, in many cases, Christians are so emotionally bought into the story of Jesus being a historical figure that they cannot hear logical arguments against. And so it's a gruelling and time consuming and emotionally demanding exercise to discuss this, and I didn't feel I could be posting on two big discussions at the same time without it completely taking over my life.

So I took the decision that I would concentrate in talking to the people who had already reached the view that Jesus was a mythical character ...there are many of them, and probably as many as there are Christians.,.. you may not realise this. But of course, I forgot how angry Christians can get when the tenets of their religion are brought into question and this is what I always forget because I don't understand it.

I also have worked (as a shaman) with the spirit of Jesus, and he is one of my favourite spirits to work with because he is pure Love, pure unconditional Love, and you cannot feel that Love when you are in pride and arrogance and laying into some poster or other in the way that you have to me ~ Unified Serenity and 9eagle9 ~ because the two just don't mix.

So I'm choosing to carry on feeling the love that I felt with my granddaugher today, and I'll be staying off here for few days now, and then decide later whether to come back.

But I do appreciate the wonderful people I've met here, and I hope you know that.

Many thanks for listening and also many thanks for all the supportive posts and messages,

And .. right here... it is nearly midnight! Soooooooo, Happy New Year everyone!!

[MMA_Fan]

Happy new year Ishtar and thanks for the discussions.

:party:

[Kristin]

LOL, interesting post as usual Ishtar. Have a good rest.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Pagels

[Dawn]

AnotherBob just posted something on another thread which is very applicable to this one and the interpersonal relationships that are being seen here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37071-How-do-You-Contact-Your-Higher-Self&p=392429&viewfull=1#post392429

It is actually a very good (maybe the only) answer to what to do about the emotional programming which shows up in us all, and the archetypical patterns we all get caught in, though it might not make sense to the mind:

my advice is just to love and love and don't relent until utterly consumed in that inner mounting flame, because there is no sweeter way to burn, and that's a simple fact, Another Bob.

May you be blessed with deep love for yourself.
You are another me.

Happy New Year everyone.

[Unified Serenity]

Take the Zeitgeist Challenge:
http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/

Here is a chance to win a $1000.00 for anyone who can verify any of the claims made in Zeitgeist about the similarities of the ancient gods and Christ. So, take the challenge if you think you can do it. I just watched the Zeitgeist Refuted video and it clearly demonstrates how very poor scholarly work was done in making the claims made about these ancient gods being very similar to the issues regarding Christ. This should be easy for some to do since it apparent common knowledge and well documented. I just watched the full movie below, and so far their refutation is very eye opening, but I am most interested in seeing if you can win the $1000.00 dollars.

So, here is the list per the challenge:

"All you have to do is take the various claims (that I will list below) concerning the similarities of Christ and other ancient gods that Zeitgeist makes, match them up to the text where it is claimed, and provide the specific quote and/or a link to the source, for example:
- List here the claim made by Zeitgeist:
- Here you might put the title of the text or glyph that is mentioned (for example: “Book of the Dead”, and the
chapter and verse if applicable.
- Here quote what is literally said in the source or why it is implied.
- Here you would provide a link to it on the web, if applicable.
Repeat this process for ALL the claims made by Zeitgeist and you WIN!!
Here is a link to a good website where you can find copies of many of the ancient texts where some of these claims would be found. Sacred Texts (http://www.sacred-texts.com/) You could, of course, also use texts any other place you find them, as long as they can be verified.
There is only one reasonable ground rule:
Obviously, you would want to make sure the texts you quote from are valid, in that they are reasonably demonstrable to have been written before the time of Christ, only because the attempt by Zeitgeist is to show that the biblical story was “borrowed” from earlier myths.
The makers of Zeitgeist offer a list of sources for the claims they make, but they fail to list original texts, besides the Bible, in defense of them. So, it probably wont help you much, but it is available here (http://zeitgeistmovie.com/sources). As you can see, Zeitgeist chooses, instead, to quote modern writers, of which the primary one seems to be Gerald Massey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Massey) and Acharya S. (http://truthbeknown.com/)

The following are the claims of Zeitgeist word for word:

HORUS:
Horus was born on December 25th
Born of the virgin
His birth was accompanied by a star in the east
Three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior
At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher
And at the age of 30, he was baptized and thus began his ministry
Horus had 12 disciples
Performed miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water
Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God’s Anointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, After being betrayed by Typhon,
Horus was crucified,
Buried for 3 days and
Thus, resurrected.

ATTIS:
Born of the virgin
On December 25th,
Crucified,
Placed in a tomb
And after 3 days, was resurrected.

KRISHNA:
Born of the virgin
With a star in the east signaling his coming
Performed miracles with his disciples
And upon his death was resurrected.

DIONYSUS
born of a virgin on December 25th
was a traveling teacher
who performed miracles such as turning water into wine
he was referred to as the “King of Kings,” “God’s Only Begotten Son,” “The Alpha and Omega,” and many others
and upon his death, he was resurrected.

MITHRA:
Born of a virgin
On December 25th
He had 12 disciples
And performed miracles
And upon his death was buried for 3 days
And thus resurrected
He was also referred to as “The Truth,” “The Light”
Interestingly, the sacred day of worship of Mithra was Sunday.

Jesus Christ:
Born on December 25th
Three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior

Let me be very clear, Im not looking for what people SAY it says in the ancient literature. There is an abundance of that available. I want to know where these people are getting their information because we can find no historical record of these claims in ancient history.
Send your submissions to us via our contact form (http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/?page_id=20). In the unlikely event of a winner you will be paid via Paypal." f Go to their website if you need to read more there...

http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/

You might want to watch this before you invest the time, it's quite revealing and this information is pretty much covered in the first 25 minutes. I found the whole movie very interesting. I did not agree with the final part about Christians are not allowed to fight ever, but other than that, it was a good movie.


1hgX6w4U-2o

[DNA]

Paul,

What I find confusing is that it's not ok to bring up NLP usage as that is inflamatory and yet spending a good deal of time selling an unbacked up idea that Jesus never existed and when I try to discuss it, the OP basically say's "No, and get off my thread". Where is it ok to make incredible statments as facts regarding that which is akin to my example of someone yelling "Fire" and then when challenged somehow the one's questioning the comments and tactics used by the OP which were clearly manipulative in the wording ..... that the ones who questioned are somehow in the wrong because it wasn't their thread? I did not have a tone. I made an observation she did not like.

It seems some here can make all kinds of observations, ridicule members, give back handed humerous comments and yet somehow the one noticing is ticketed and accused of tone and inciting a fight. wow, the bullies do run the asylum. I back away now, will remember Ishtar is above reproach as well as certain other members until they come right out and say something really offensive, but I shall not mention NLP or disinfo tactics though they are quite obvious to many.

I shall take my seat now, but I won't be licking anyone's **** covered boots. sorry

United Serenity, calling some one out on something as nebulous as NLP is tantamount to screaming witch, then gathering wood and stoking the flames.
It's beneath you. If you have issue with a portion of what some one is saying, quote it, and argue it.

After reading this thread I personally don't agree with anything Ishtar has stated concerning religion or archeology, but I will give it up, she is one hell of a writer.

How folks can argue with such certainty events that have transpired thousands of years ago is perplexing and strange to me. Most of you don't know what the hell is going on right now, so how can you claim such certainty on events occuring millenia ago?

And Ishtar, I am confused, so let me get this straight. You don't believe Jesus ever existed, but you have communicated with the spirit of Jesus. That makes no sense to me what so ever.

And one last thing, NLP isn't really that effective in written form. NLP relies on phisiological happenings and physical presence. So let's not over estimate the power and or voodoo of NLP.
.
.
.
.
POST EDIT

Okay, so above I stated I didn't agree with anything Ishtar was saying, but that was before I read this.


When the shaman journeys through trance into other dimensions he meets beings who we call the spirits, and they are often in human form, and some are in the form of tall, blond human or humanoids. The ancient Sumerians didn't call the Annuna 'gods' and the ancient Indians didn't call the Aryans 'gods' That was just the word of the Oxford classics-trained translators in the early 20th century.

Even today, shamans draw or make models of their spirit guides, in the same way that the Sumerians and Greeks made statues of them.

The Oxford scholars borrowed this word from the classical Greeks who called the spirits 'theo' and this was translated by the scholars as 'gods'.

The spirits were eventually subsumed by religion, and eventually one God, known as monotheism, which was a way of barring the Gate to the Spirits (true meaning of the word Babylon) to the rest of us. Babylon, the Gate to the Spirits, was dismissed as a whore by Judaic priests who made themselves into intermediaries. Only they could talk to the spirits, while we ordinary people were locked out of such a self-empowering experience, for obvious reasons, while being fed stories about ordinary people who dared to venture into the Holy of Holies meeting instantaneous death unless they were one of the Levi priesthood.

So this is all about control and manipulation.

Eventually, the priests even forgot how to talk to the spirits themselves .. but luckily, the shamans are remembering.

This is some really good stuff.
Excellent.

I personally agree with Zacharia Sitchin, but what Ishtar is saying still holds up for me.
Good stuff. Really good stuff. I agree with her premise 100%

[Unified Serenity]

As a large part of the debate for me centered around the idea that Jesus never existed and/or the aspects of his life were mirrored by prior ancient gods, and that some crazy Jews made up this story about a man from Nazareth named Jesus. It turns out there are no texts to prove these claims to exist prior to about 150 A.D. so if anyone is copying anyone it is those mythological gods followers copying the Christians and bible, not the other way around. Here is another video that offers some interesting extra information.

Why does this matter? Well, if someone is going to make an extraordinary claim then they should have some very good or extraordinary proof and not just and idea or theory backed up by nothing provable. Everyone is welcome to express an idea, but if they are going to put out something as major as Jesus never existed or it's made up based on ancient truths about gods who existed prior and therefore made up then they should be able to back it up.

One of my favorite ideas is that as ancients worshiped the Sun and God created the Sun, thus when Jesus came onto the scene that it was no leap for him to be called the Son of God when it was all just based on Sun of God. This really cannot work from a common sense. The term Son does not sound like Sun in other languages like Hebrew, Aramaic, Egyptian etc.. It works in English, but the claim that Jesus was the Son of God 2000 years ago because of the Sun Of God comparison of Astro-theology won't work. So, enjoy this other video. Oh, one other thing. Major teachers of this strange yet oddly accepted thinking in alternative thinking groups was strongly put out by Masons and Luciferian adherents like Blavatsky and Pike. This ties into my larger work as we examine the ultimate plan to bring back the Old World Religion Mystery Babylon as a New World Religion of Ascension so prominently talked about today. So, with all that said, let's find out some more documented facts. I like this video because it goes a little slower than the one I previously posted and gives you a change to take notes more easily and verify what you want.


Hbvfqa_mzLw

[DNA]

The split in the thread to include Jesus in with original Anunnaki post is appreciated. Allowing me to ask a spiritually related question without I hope offending anyone. I'm not sure if there are any passages written that Jesus references other life in the universe which might include the Annunnaki. I know the Old Testament has references to UFO's and giants. I would like to hear someones viewpoints from the New Testament. I think many pastors of churches have a difficult time and immediately turn the idea of UFO's and Anunnaki into demonic only. I'm not saying there aren't negative forces like this, just not all. In a way I can understand why a Pastor would feel this way because the path to salvation does not include belief in this subject Thanks
mojo

Greetings sibling Mojo. :)

I highly recomend reading the Anthony Sanchez interview if you have a couple hours to spare. Anthony Sanchez interviews Col. X concerning Dulce, and explains the relationship between the greys, the illuminati and the Annunaki (http://imaginativeworlds.com/forum/showthread.php?22933-DULCE-INTERVIEW-Anthony-Sanchez-interviews-Colonel-X&highlight=)

I'm not saying I believe it, but I am putting it on the shelf where I keep my "verdict is still out" stuff. It is amazingly fascinating. It offers a lot of explanations, and vibes well with Robert MorningSky's Terra Papers. (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/menu.html#Papers)


In the reference to "demonic only" I think it worth mentioning the origin of satan. The devil had no historic occurance in the Judaic Old Testement Religion until the fifth century BC. Coincidentally this is when the Persian Empire invaded the region and took it over completly.
This is when you have the first occurance of the devil in the Judaic religion. It was borrowed from the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism, this Persian religion Zorastrianism being the first monotheistic religion with a dualistic principle. The devil didn't come from the old testement, it came from a religion that is hardly even practiced anymore.

[DNA]

Oh, one other thing. Major teachers of this strange yet oddly accepted thinking in alternative thinking groups was strongly put out by Masons and Luciferian adherents like Blavatsky and Pike.

Wow! I've always been a big fan of Blavatsky, and yet I have never been able to see any correlations with her work and a Luciferian alternative thinking group.
I've read both "The Secret Doctrine" and "Isis Revisited", and they were both really awesome books. Good stuff.

I gotta tell you, I'm not invested in the idea of ascension, not at all, but I do keep an open mind, and the idea of it is comfortable with me.
Why does it get you so upset?
Why do you think of ascension as a religion of sorts?

I ask because I haven't had any body knock on my door giving me pamphlets.
I haven't been stopped in the street and told I need to repent for my immortal soul or I won't ascend on 2012.
I think the whole thing is pretty harmless, and I am perplexed to no end to see you starting threads and investing so much time into it.

I consider it an after thought, but to see some one so fixated on it, you seem to put a lot of yourself into it. More than I dare say anyone who believes in ascension would.
Well, as I stated above, I don't mean to make light of your belief in the devil, but I do not under any circumstance believe in the devil, or Lucifer or what not.

[Unified Serenity]

Dna,

Thanks for your thoughtful posts. I am not against Ascension as it would apply to spiritual growth and development. What I am talking about is a plan I believe is and has been in the works for a very very long time. I have written quite a bit about this plan in various details. What we are seeing is a systematic destruction of many belief systems. And as bad as things have gotten in the world who wouldn't want some of these systems destroyed, right?

That is part of my point. The world did not get screwed up overnight by accident. Sure stuff happens, but nations are built, economies are controlled, and social cultural mores are maintained, encouraged or destroyed. It's one of the reason so many of my Muslim friends in Saudi Arabia detested Western culture and protected their children from it. They saw it as dangerous and unhealthy, so they kept their children from watching T.V. or wearing Western clothes. I'm sure you get my point there. Well, the elites love the old mystery religion and they worship within it. It does not matter if you believe in Lucifer, trust me, if another person is an adherent and they have power in the real world, then lots of bad things can and have happened. Hitlers SS were Luciferians. Hell, it's believed by some most of our top military today are Luciferians if you are to believe some recent videos. Who better to play the bad guy than American SS officers? I mean we brought the other Nazi's over, why not their military system too?

That's neither here nor there, just rambling I guess. The issue is that you are right ascension ideal is not bad, but what I am talking about is the desire of the elites to systematically destroy all faith in common religions and most particularly Christianity. Now, please hear me out as most here hate Christianity, but that was taken over 1800 years ago. They already control Christianity and it's fulfilled it's purposes a long time ago, but it's a very hard thing to change such a deeply engrained part of a society's belief system. You don't just go, OK we no longer are Druids as we are now Christians, and all the Druid priests lay down their books and staffs and pick up a bible and wear lil crosses. Oh, the Roman Catholics were great at incorporating pagan systems into Christianity, but those who refused to get with the program were handled as we know most terribly. The church was the perfect vehicle to control the masses, to gain wealth, and keep an eye on the people.

So, jumping ahead, innately man typically desires to understand who he is and find out about this God issue. We tend to know by experiences and just knowing there is more out there, what that is well, we have debated that forever, but one thing is for certain there have been powerful influences within the rich and powerful elites going all the way back to mystery Babylon and before. They guard their secrets well. High Magick, special rites of knowledge, and vision quests to reveal your true nature and your bringer of light and illumination true self. I have known some who got pretty high up and they will share some amazing stories if the time is right. They will speak of Lucifer, meeting him, how amazing he is, and what is possible, how much freedom they have to do what they want and gain worldly riches. Of course they also tell you of the hell their life turned into and how they wanted out sometimes. That's not so easy, so whether you believe in Lucifer or not does not matter. That would be like me telling the cop I don't believe in jail if I am caught breaking the law badly enough to warrant going to jail. "No, jail does not exist, get your hands off me, hey don't taze me bro, I don't believe in Taaaaaaaaaaaaz, aaaaaaaaaagh" Get my drift?

These elites are not playing a game. They intend to put us in a new prison so big we wont see it and in fact we will demand the damn thing. We hate our world, we hate our politicians, we hate our economies, we hate the wars, we hate Christianity and religion in general. Do you think we came to hate all this stuff over night? I mean really? It has been programmed carefully for at least a couple hundred years slowly year by year and they really started ramping up the psy ops about 35 or so years ago. Destroy the family, destroy foundational systems, dumb em down, lock em up, wars everywhere, bad food, bad water, bad air you name it, it's all corrupt and we are really sick and tired of it, and they understand. In fact when we have had enough of it and all ****s breaking loose and it looks like we are going to annihilate 90% of the world there will be some death and destruction, but a new plan will be offered.

Imagine you are on death row and you get offered a reprieve. Ohhh better yet, your little girl or boy or grandchild or wife or husband is on death row and they get offered a reprieve, just sign the peace treaty. It's that simple really. Just end this silly thing called nation states, freedom of religion and embrace the light. Oh, it will be the most spectacular moment in the last 6000 years. I have seen it, I know it and it feels like death inside of me when I have felt it. It is so incredibly wonderful and beautiful. It's like watching Obama get inaugurated in 2008 only 100 times better. It's the world we knew we could always build where we are all one. No more wars, no more hunger, no more competition, we will have transcended that old way and ascended into a new day of love and light, and who doesn't want that?

These Luciferians are serious about their ascension to the one true God. Oh, yes tell them he is not real, they love it. Jail isn't' real either remember bro? It's amazing how systematically they have destroyed our world with our help of course. I mean these wars and uranium being dumped didn't happen because Queen Elizabeth and Charles dropped it, we did it. Our men and women in uniform did it. I doubt Charles has ever sullied his hands personally killing anyone. Well, that's only if you believe he isn't a child eating lizard at night. Anyhow, if they can destroy something they can rebuild something. If they can give something they can take something away. We are already in a totalitarian state. We are already in a controlled prison system that we like. There is going to be some major event, war, catastrophe of some kind and it will scare the crap out of the world, and we will beg and plead for change. Not only will we change, we will ascend if we only comply.

I am not saying everyone who talks of this ascension is evil, just be careful what you wish for. Not every gift is good, and not every teacher understands where they are getting their information from. Please study for yourselves diligently. Your... our future depends on it.

Much love and thanks for hearing me out....

Serenity

[Unified Serenity]

Helena Blavatsky’s luciferian Spirituality (http://smashabanana.blogspot.com/2011/05/helena-blavatskys-luciferian.html)




http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qSsu0T7lHKY/Tcnq88_AKFI/AAAAAAAAAZw/W66Jbs99M-I/s200/Blavatsky.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qSsu0T7lHKY/Tcnq88_AKFI/AAAAAAAAAZw/W66Jbs99M-I/s1600/Blavatsky.jpg)
"Lucifer is the divine and terrestrial light, the 'Holy Ghost' and 'Satan,' at one and the same time…. It now stands proven that Satan, or the Red Fiery Dragon…, and Lucifer, or 'light-Bearer,' is in us: it is our Mind---our tempter and Redeemer."

Helena Blavatsky. The Secret Doctrine. (Theosophical University Press, Pasadena, CA). 1888 (1988 republished). Vol. II, Pp. 513.
Blavatsky’s Theosophy, a.k.a luciferianism, was embraced by Adolph Hitler and is the spiritual foundation and belief system of the United Nations. Coincidentally, Hitler obtained the swastika from theosophy’s symbol.


another source says:

'The Secret Doctrine' by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky "Lucifer represents..Life..Thought..Progress..Civilization..
Liberty..Independence..Lucifer is the Logos..the Serpent, the Savior." on pages 171, 225, 255 (Volume II)
"It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God." pages 215, 216, 220, 245, 255, 533, (VI)

"The Celestial Virgin which thus becomes the Mother of Gods and Devils at one and the same time; for she is the ever-loving beneficent Deity...but in antiquity and reality Lucifer or Luciferius is the name. Lucifer is divine and terrestial Light, 'the Holy Ghost' and "Satan' at one and the same time." page 539 (Volume?)

[Jenci]

I just know that I came back from a lovely day out with my gorgeous little granddaughter, who loves me so much she keeps flinging her arms around me with a big, soppy grin on her face, and then I put on my computer to well... all this .. and I cried.

I don't normally cry. I'm normally pretty tough. But my heart chakra was wide open after being in such loving company all day, and I suddenly did not want to be here anymore, in all this self-righteous, arrogant hatred and distrust ... of me and my motives. That's how it felt. So I just said how it made me feel and was quite graphic about describing my feelings. Of course, if I hadn't been feeling so hurt I would have realised that I would be accused of playing for the sympathy vote. I can assure you, I wasn't. It was live it was real and I was bleeding and why should I have to hide it when I didn't cause it? I don't think that makes me a victim, but maybe I'm just not getting it.

Anyway, after many conversations here with people, I've decided not to leave but I will be taking a break for a few days and then I'll review the situation again after that.



Hi Ishtar,

The spiritual path often gets misunderstood to being a path to transcend our emotions and be free of them. I like to say it is the opposite - rather than being freedom from, it's freedom to experience All.

As a spiritual being you have been given a human body to experience life from a human perspective. Your hurt, your pain and your tears are what make you human. Don't deny this experience which you are being given - it's Grace. All feelings are what we are meant to experience in the Now.

The unmanifested Source manifests in the world as duality. Two opposing values.
You are hurt and crying while at the same time being enveloped in love by your granddaugher.
Dualistic opposing values - One Source.
It's what you are.


I hope you do come back. I think a lot of people were very interested in your thoughts on the Annunaki thread and appreciate the time you took to convey them.
Jeanette

[DNA]

Thanks for your thoughtful posts. I am not against Ascension as it would apply to spiritual growth and development. What I am talking about is a plan I believe is and has been in the works for a very very long time. I have written quite a bit about this plan in various details. What we are seeing is a systematic destruction of many belief systems. And as bad as things have gotten in the world who wouldn't want some of these systems destroyed, right?


I feel you on this. This is happening so the world can have a one government slash one religion control system in place, and you can't have that without eradicating some belief systems.
Contrary to what you might think, I respect religions, even though I think they are all wrong. They provide a necessary spiritual bridge for folks depending on their incarnational evolution.




That is part of my point. The world did not get screwed up overnight by accident. Sure stuff happens, but nations are built, economies are controlled, and social cultural mores are maintained, encouraged or destroyed. It's one of the reason so many of my Muslim friends in Saudi Arabia detested Western culture and protected their children from it. They saw it as dangerous and unhealthy, so they kept their children from watching T.V. or wearing Western clothes. I'm sure you get my point there. Well, the elites love the old mystery religion and they worship within it. It does not matter if you believe in Lucifer, trust me, if another person is an adherent and they have power in the real world, then lots of bad things can and have happened. Hitlers SS were Luciferians. Hell, it's believed by some most of our top military today are Luciferians if you are to believe some recent videos. Who better to play the bad guy than American SS officers? I mean we brought the other Nazi's over, why not their military system too?


I never would have believed the elite dig the old mystery religion thing if I hadn't seen Alex Jones "Bohemian Grove". I don't necassarilly think that makes them luciferians though. In my view you have to be christian to be a luciferian, I mean really, if your a luciferian, then your invested in the teachings of the old testement and or new testement, as such, your a christian you just have a different interpretation of the teachings, basically like baptists and jehovah witness and mormons.
But to step outside of the religion, like in the case of the old mystery school religion, this hardly makes you a luciferian.



That's neither here nor there, just rambling I guess. The issue is that you are right ascension ideal is not bad, but what I am talking about is the desire of the elites to systematically destroy all faith in common religions and most particularly Christianity. Now, please hear me out as most here hate Christianity, but that was taken over 1800 years ago. They already control Christianity and it's fulfilled it's purposes a long time ago, but it's a very hard thing to change such a deeply engrained part of a society's belief system. You don't just go, OK we no longer are Druids as we are now Christians, and all the Druid priests lay down their books and staffs and pick up a bible and wear lil crosses. Oh, the Roman Catholics were great at incorporating pagan systems into Christianity, but those who refused to get with the program were handled as we know most terribly. The church was the perfect vehicle to control the masses, to gain wealth, and keep an eye on the people.

Okay, I personally have no investment in Christianity. But I would never attack some one, or try to stear some one away from the belief system. I mean really, most folks who accomplish a lot of stuff just take the belief system they grew up with for granted and go about thier day. There are times I envy that, I really do. There has got to be something said for living a simple of existance of right and wrong. Most of the stress we incur in life is due to choice. What better way to remove stress than to remove the responsibility of choice. You may think this is some underhanded method to dog christianity, but it is not. There is something to be said for a peacefull existance of blissfull ignorance. :)

One of the things I regret more than anything else was when I was 20 years old, I converted a christian buddy of mine. It was never my intention for him to become an atheist. I was trying to show him how awesome spirituality was, but that doesn't matter. What matters is, as soon as he no longer had God in his life as a devout christian, he soon became a drug addict. He became a hedonist, and he became a criminal. He went from being an over all good person, to a piece of sh!t. So,,,,yea,,,,,religion has it's place,,,and I now realize that for some it is very important.



So, jumping ahead, innately man typically desires to understand who he is and find out about this God issue. We tend to know by experiences and just knowing there is more out there, what that is well, we have debated that forever, but one thing is for certain there have been powerful influences within the rich and powerful elites going all the way back to mystery Babylon and before. They guard their secrets well. High Magick, special rites of knowledge, and vision quests to reveal your true nature and your bringer of light and illumination true self. I have known some who got pretty high up and they will share some amazing stories if the time is right. They will speak of Lucifer, meeting him, how amazing he is, and what is possible, how much freedom they have to do what they want and gain worldly riches. Of course they also tell you of the hell their life turned into and how they wanted out sometimes. That's not so easy, so whether you believe in Lucifer or not does not matter. That would be like me telling the cop I don't believe in jail if I am caught breaking the law badly enough to warrant going to jail. "No, jail does not exist, get your hands off me, hey don't taze me bro, I don't believe in Taaaaaaaaaaaaz, aaaaaaaaaagh" Get my drift?


I just don't get that. How can Lucifer have anything to do with mystery religions? He wasn't even around back in the time of Babylon. I don't mean to question the authenticity of your friends story, but it is hard for me to believe is all. Further, it just doesn't jibe with any of my personal experience.
Further more, the idea of hell, I just don't get it.
In almost every concievable fashion reincarnation makes religious sense.
It was even in christianity before it was taken out so hell would seem like more of a threat, and give the church more control.



These elites are not playing a game. They intend to put us in a new prison so big we wont see it and in fact we will demand the damn thing. We hate our world, we hate our politicians, we hate our economies, we hate the wars, we hate Christianity and religion in general. Do you think we came to hate all this stuff over night? I mean really? It has been programmed carefully for at least a couple hundred years slowly year by year and they really started ramping up the psy ops about 35 or so years ago. Destroy the family, destroy foundational systems, dumb em down, lock em up, wars everywhere, bad food, bad water, bad air you name it, it's all corrupt and we are really sick and tired of it, and they understand. In fact when we have had enough of it and all ****s breaking loose and it looks like we are going to annihilate 90% of the world there will be some death and destruction, but a new plan will be offered.

This is some Denver Mural sh!t right here. Yea, I'm hip.
http://dianarn.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/denver3a.jpg



Imagine you are on death row and you get offered a reprieve. Ohhh better yet, your little girl or boy or grandchild or wife or husband is on death row and they get offered a reprieve, just sign the peace treaty. It's that simple really. Just end this silly thing called nation states, freedom of religion and embrace the light. Oh, it will be the most spectacular moment in the last 6000 years. I have seen it, I know it and it feels like death inside of me when I have felt it. It is so incredibly wonderful and beautiful. It's like watching Obama get inaugurated in 2008 only 100 times better. It's the world we knew we could always build where we are all one. No more wars, no more hunger, no more competition, we will have transcended that old way and ascended into a new day of love and light, and who doesn't want that?


Agreed. Here is the Denver mural of the children of the world turning the sword held by the nazi fella above into plow shares. It does in fact see like joyous occasion.
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3c930b027e80.jpg



These Luciferians are serious about their ascension to the one true God. Oh, yes tell them he is not real, they love it. Jail isn't' real either remember bro? It's amazing how systematically they have destroyed our world with our help of course. I mean these wars and uranium being dumped didn't happen because Queen Elizabeth and Charles dropped it, we did it. Our men and women in uniform did it. I doubt Charles has ever sullied his hands personally killing anyone. Well, that's only if you believe he isn't a child eating lizard at night. Anyhow, if they can destroy something they can rebuild something. If they can give something they can take something away. We are already in a totalitarian state. We are already in a controlled prison system that we like. There is going to be some major event, war, catastrophe of some kind and it will scare the crap out of the world, and we will beg and plead for change. Not only will we change, we will ascend if we only comply.

I think you make a very good case. And all in all I am suprised how much I agree with you. But I do think it is a bit of a stretch thinking folks are going to need some kind of ascension clause or pie in the sky rainbow deal to come to terms or will fully participate. I mean you just stated this offer would come on the board after 90% of the earth's population is eliminated.
I'm pretty sure the remaining population is going to be pretty docile and just be happy they are f*cking alive at this point. No ascension religion necassary.

[DNA]

Helena Blavatsky’s luciferian Spirituality (http://smashabanana.blogspot.com/2011/05/helena-blavatskys-luciferian.html)




http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qSsu0T7lHKY/Tcnq88_AKFI/AAAAAAAAAZw/W66Jbs99M-I/s200/Blavatsky.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qSsu0T7lHKY/Tcnq88_AKFI/AAAAAAAAAZw/W66Jbs99M-I/s1600/Blavatsky.jpg)
"Lucifer is the divine and terrestrial light, the 'Holy Ghost' and 'Satan,' at one and the same time…. It now stands proven that Satan, or the Red Fiery Dragon…, and Lucifer, or 'light-Bearer,' is in us: it is our Mind---our tempter and Redeemer."

Helena Blavatsky. The Secret Doctrine. (Theosophical University Press, Pasadena, CA). 1888 (1988 republished). Vol. II, Pp. 513.
Blavatsky’s Theosophy, a.k.a luciferianism, was embraced by Adolph Hitler and is the spiritual foundation and belief system of the United Nations. Coincidentally, Hitler obtained the swastika from theosophy’s symbol.


another source says:

'The Secret Doctrine' by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky "Lucifer represents..Life..Thought..Progress..Civilization..
Liberty..Independence..Lucifer is the Logos..the Serpent, the Savior." on pages 171, 225, 255 (Volume II)
"It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God." pages 215, 216, 220, 245, 255, 533, (VI)

"The Celestial Virgin which thus becomes the Mother of Gods and Devils at one and the same time; for she is the ever-loving beneficent Deity...but in antiquity and reality Lucifer or Luciferius is the name. Lucifer is divine and terrestial Light, 'the Holy Ghost' and "Satan' at one and the same time." page 539 (Volume?)



You have got to understand, HP Blavtasky was doing a lot of correlating. She did a lot of writing, and I don't doubt what you have is in fact her writing, but it's easy to take a lot of what she is saying out of context. For one thing, Blavatsky held a lot of the tenents from Gnostism in high esteem, and the Gnostics believed that the old testement God was evil, and that Jesus was sent to rescue the people from this parastic entity named Yaldaboath. Some of these beliefs about Jesus also went so far as to claim that his first incarnation was as the snake in the garden of eden to help lead the people out of ignorance by showing them the forbidden fruit of knowledge.


Blavatsky's over all aim was pretty high moralled and in no way did she influence the nazi thinking in so far as racism or any of that was concerned.
That was inadverdently began through the SS wrongly interpreting Friederich Nietzshe

[jcocks]

Hi..

It's late here so going to bed, but I read something a few days ago which was very interesting.... According to this, Lucifer was not a literal being - but is in fact tied into the mythical planet "maldek" which is now possibly the asteroid belt. Not entirely sure if it can be taken as fact, but I found it fascinating reading, and it seems to do a good job of properly explaining how they came to that conclusion...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/otof/otof10.htm

I can, of course, only imagine the can of worms it may open up though.

As for Jesus. I know one thing - I don't trust the bible to tell me the truth on the matter :) I personally once had a strong dream involving jesus, where I was being annointed by Jesus with a sword in a temple with a scarab and etched on the marble floor . Beside the etching of the scarab were some roman letters which I couldn't understand. Make of it what you will, but it was a very strong, vivid dream. My person belief is, regardless of his actual existance, I admire the positive message he brings and positive work he did. In the end it doesn't really matter if he lived or not.

[sunnyrap]

Re: Giants

I didn't see Steve Quayle's book, Giants, mentioned here. He gives quite extensive research on them...and includes pictures:
http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html

Back in 2004-2005 there was a website put up by an Army photographer who stumbled upon a cave right under the Army base he was stationed at...I believe it was in Germany. In the cave was huge cache of skeletons of super-sized humans. He had pictures of both cave and skeletons on the website.
I'll poke about and see if I can find the website again, but it was named for the cave, which of course I don't remember... I've followed Benjamin Grundy's 'Mysterious Universe' podcast for years. That's how I learned about this story. He may have the info archived.

[sunnyrap]

I did run across this (cave with bones) story posted here: http://www.cavelore.com/giantsmyth.htm

[sunnyrap]

Then there is the 'reptilian beings living underground' stories that persist in quite a few places, like this:
http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2011/10/cave-creatures-reptilian-humanoids-from-the-hollow-earth/


Taking a more Fortean angle to all this, for most of us the serious treatment of any idea that there might be humanoid monstrosities lurking within cavernous corridors beneath the Earth’s surface is little more than lunacy. In many regards, I have to agree that, while I enjoy the films and other fictional portrayals that delve into the depths of this subject, we cannot take very literally the idea that subterranean non-humans exist. And yet, from time to time, there are indeed reports that “surface” (pun intended) which seek to illustrate that this very sort of thing actually is more than mere fiction.

A recent post at Lon Strickler’s Phantoms and Monsters website dealt with a supposedly true encounter one spelunker claims to have had with a “reptilian being.” The story goes like this: the witness, a caver in the Missouri area, had spent some time spelunking while serving in the Navy a few years prior to the experience. Then in the early 1990, he helped form a group of fellow spelunkers who spent time exploring caves and caverns around Missouri and Arkansas. While exploring one such system around that time, the caver traced a series of caverns all the way to an area that he believed was actually the end of the system, when a rustling noise above him caught his attention. Finally, he climbed up to a small opening in near the ceiling, from which the noises seemed to be coming, and peered through to see if he could discover the source. In addition to a strange machine resembling a “golf cart,” the astonished spelunker described seeing a seven-foot-tall lizard man! “The face and head were shaped like a human with a flat nose but there were no ears or hair,” the witness wrote. “The top of the head had a slight scaly ray or ridge that extending down the back of the neck. From what I could see it had lips and regular sized eyes.” The creature also had a 4-5 foot tail, and wore a gold-colored outfit.

The man, though quite amazed at what he had seen, even claimed to have snapped a few distorted photographs of the “monster,” before it suddenly turned toward him, hissing… had he been discovered? To read the rest of this unique story, you can visit Strickler’s site by clicking here.

Interestingly, I’ve had a few creepy encounters of my own in caves over the years, since my fascination with the idea of subterranean dwellers has led to a similar passion for crawling around caverns and extremities within the Earth. While I’ve certainly never encountered any reptilian humanoids, I’ve seen some rather large spiders on occasion, and have certainly managed to scare the living daylights out of myself more than once; trust me folks, when caving, it’s best to always go with a buddy… especially in case lizard-loving cave creatures come ambling your way!

Lon featured a story similar to that of the Lizard Man of Missouri a little more than a year ago, detailing another subterranean encounter with lizard-men (for more on that story, follow this link). And finally, readers interested in going a bit deeper into my own thought processes regarding cave creatures and Hollow Earth mysteries might also enjoy looking at these articles, dealing with The Moho Discontinuity, as well as this one about holes in the North and South Poles, and this piece that deals with creatures of different varieties, and their folkloric implications.

[sunnyrap]

This is a nice compilation of big bones found in America and Australia stories: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/830123/posts

Giant Human Remains - From records and sources all over the world.
Stan Grist Resources ^ | FR Post 1-25-03 | John Williams
Posted on Sun Jan 26 2003 19:48:11 GMT-0600 (Central Standard Time) by vannrox

Giant Human Remains

- From records and sources all over the world. -submitted by John Williams

Giant Skeletons:

In his book, The Natural and Aboriginal History of Tennessee, author John
Haywood describes "very large" bones in stone graves found in Williamson
County, Tennessee, in 1821. In White County, Tennessee, an "ancient
fortification" contained skeletons of gigantic stature averaging at least 7
feet in length.


Giant skeletons were found in the mid-1800s near Rutland and Rodman, New
York. J.N. DeHart, M.D. found vertebrae "larger than those of the present
type" in Wisconsin mounds in 1876. W.H.R. Lykins uncovered skull bones "of
great size and thickness" in mounds of Kansas City area in 1877.


George W. Hill, M.D., dug out a skeleton "of unusual size" in a mound of
Ashland County, Ohio. In 1879, a nine-foot, eight-inch skeleton was
excavated from a mound near Brewersville, Indiana (Indianapolis News, Nov 10,
1975).


A six foot, six inch skeleton was found in a Utah mound. This was at least a
foot taller than the average Indian height in the area, and these natives-
what few there were of them -were not mound builders.


"A skeleton which is reported to have been of enormous dimensions" was found
in a clay coffin, with a sandstone slab containing hieroglyphics, during
mound explorations by a Dr Everhart near Zanesville, Ohio. (American
Antiquarian, v3, 1880, pg61).


Ten skeletons "of both sexes and of gigantic size" were taken from a mound
at Warren, Minnesota, 1883. (St. Paul Pioneer Press, May 23, 1883)
A skeleton 7 feet 6 inches long was found in a massive stone structure that
was likened to a temple chamber within a mound in Kanawha County, West
Virginia, in 1884. (American Antiquarian, v6, 1884 133f. Cyrus Thomas,
Report on Mound Explorations of the Bureau of Ethnology, 12th Annual Report,
Smithsonian Bureau of Ethnology, 1890-91).


A large mound near Gasterville, Pennsylvania, contained a vault in which was
found a skeleton measuring 7 feet 2 inches. Inscriptions were carved on the
vault. (American Antiquarian, v7, 1885, 52f).


In 1885, miners discovered the mummified remains of woman measuring 6 feet 8
inches tall holding an infant. The mummies were found in a cave behind a
wall of rock in the Yosemite Valley.


In Minnesota, 1888, were discovered remains of seven skeletons 7 to 8 feet
tall. (St. Paul Pioneer Press, June 29, 1888).


A mound near Toledo, Ohio, held 20 skeletons, seated and facing east with
jaws and teeth "twice as large as those of present day people," and besides
each was a large bowl with "curiously wrought hieroglyphic figures."
(Chicago Record, Oct. 24, 1895; cited by Ron G. Dobbins, NEARA Journal, v13,
fall 1978).


The skeleton of a huge man was uncovered at the Beckley farm, Lake Koronis,
Minnesota; while at Moose Island and Pine City, bones of other giants came
to light. (St. Paul Globe, Aug. 12, 1896).


In 1911, several red-haired mummies ranging from 6 and a half feet to 8 feet
tall were discovered in a cave in Lovelock, Nevada.
In February and June of 1931, large skeletons were found in the Humboldt
lake bed near Lovelock, Nevada. The first of these two skeletons found
measured 8 1/2 feet tall and appeared to have been wrapped in a gum-covered
fabric similiar to the Egyptian manner. The second skeleton was almost 10
feet long. (Review - Miner, June 19, 1931).


A 7 foot 7 inch skeleton was reported to have been found on the Friedman
ranch, near Lovelock, Nevada, in 1939.(Review - Miner, Sept. 29, 1939)
In 1965, a skeleton measuring 8 feet 9 inches was found buried under a rock
ledge along the Holly Creek in east-central Kentucky.


AUSTRALIAN GIANTS:

There was a race or group of people found in Australia called "meganthropus"
by anthropologists. These people were of very large size--estimated between
7 to 12 feet tall, depending on what source you read. These people were
found with mega tool artifacts, so their humaness is difficult to question.
Four jaw fragments and thousands of teeth have been found in China of
"gigantopithecus blacki"--named after the discover. Based on the size of the
teeth and deep jaws, its size has been estimated at around 10 feet and as
tall as 12 feet, 1200 pounds.

PROOF OF AUSTRALIAN GIANTS:

In old river gravels near Bathurst, NSW, huge stone artifacts -- clubs,
pounders, adzes, chisels, knives and hand axes -- all of tremendous weight,
lie scattered over a wide area. These weigh anything from 8, 10, 15, to 21
and 25 pounds, implements which only men of tremendous proportions could
possibly have made and used. Estimates for the actual size of these men
range from 10 to 12 feet tall and over, weighing from 500 to 600 lbs.
A fossicker searching the Winburndale River north of Bathurst discovered a
large quartzitised fossil human molar tooth, far too big for any normal
modern man. A similar find was made near Dubbo, N.S.W.


Prospectors working in the Bathurst district in the 1930's frequently
reported coming across numerous large human footprints fossilised in shoals
of red jasper.


Even more impressive were fossil deposits found by naturalist Rex Gilroy
around Bathurst. He excavated from a depth of 6 feet (2 m) below the surface
a fossil lower back molar tooth measuring 67 mm. in length by 50mm. x 42 mm.
across the crown. If his measurements are correct, the owner would have been
at least 25 ft. tall, weighing well over 1,000 lbs!


At Gympie, Queensland, a farmer, Keith Walker, was ploughing his field when
he turned up the large fragment of the back portion of a jaw which still
possessed the hollow for a missing lower back molar tooth. This is now in
Rex GiIroy's possession. The owner of the tooth would have stood
at 10 feet tall.


In the Megalong Valley in the Blue Mountains NSW, a Mr P. Holman found in
ironstone protruding from a creek bank the deeply impressed print of a large
human-like foot. The print was that of the instep, with all 5 toes clearly
shown. This footprint measures 7 inches across the toes. Had the footprint
been complete it would have been at least 2 feet (60 cm in length,
appropriate to a 12 foot human. However, the largest footprint found on the
Blue Mountains must have belonged to a man 20 feet tall!


A set of 3 huge footprints was discovered near Mulgoa, south of Penrith,
N.S.W. These prints, each measuring 2 ft long and 7 inches across the toes,
are 6 ft. apart, indicating the stride of the 12 ft. giant who left them.
These prints were preserved by volcanic lava and ash flows which "occurred
millions of years" before man is supposed to have appeared on the Australian
continent (if one is to believe the evolutionary theory):
Noel Reeves found monstrous footprints near Kempsey, N.S.W. in sandstone
beds on the Upper Macleay River. One print shows toe 4 inches (10cm) long
and the total toe-span is 10 inches (25cm) - suggesting that the owner of
the print may have been 17 feet tall.

[gripreaper]

There were many at the turn of the 19th century, who were revisiting the spiritual, or "astral" nature of spirituality and religion, just as there are today. Madam Blavatsky was certainly one of them, as was the coming to America of Yogananda. Most of Madam Blavatsky's stuff evolved into the new age human potential movement while Yogananda's evolved into the alternative spirituality movement.

Bottom line, energetically, beyond duality in the other dimensions, there is no form or archetypes, such as "Lucifer" or "Jesus", etc. These do explain the opposite polarities in this quantum field, and we use archetypes in this dimension, and the elite understand this very well. How to manipulate this energy and these archetypes for their benefit, driving the gnostics and the Druids into hiding while killing anyone who did not go along with their control programs. That's no secret to anyone here.

Along comes this notion that we are all clairvoyant, claireaudient and clairesentient, as well as able to bilocate, remote view, and have the ability to take matter and change it instantly, such as alchemy. These gifts are called the "siddhis" by the great sages and guru's, and have spawned many an alternative medicine and healing practice in the last several decades.

Bottom line, is we must establish a context from which we are discussing this notion of Jesus and the Devil. Are we looking for empirical evidence through the context of the Newtoniam paradigm we are exiting or are we looking at it from a subjective internal experiential perspective?

I, for one, am moving away from the empirical and into self experiential. I know this is tough to "prove" and goes against hundreds of years of experiments and study, so as soon as I am able to manifest an object at will, I'll go out onto the seminar circuit and show you how to do it. Until then, I'm in transition.

[9eagle9]

There are thousands of them playing publicly and privately.Not only in the 3d. There's uncountable contructs out in the 4d that have assumed roles. And those people who intuit them are tempted in playing role as well. The SELF never tempts a person to a role because the SELF is providing that which no role ever could. This is what our historical masters have shown us regardless of which one , one chooses to admire.

If any of us come from sort of cohesive family unit, we've been playing the roles out ever since ....until we break it. Since we are able to cimb out of the crib and start interacting with the rest of the family, then we go to school and play them out, and then college and then our work life. Then our relationships. And so on and so on. WE lose all our child wisdom and can't remember it.

All of this was imposed on us . We carry them from previous existances. It's hypnotic in nature. A suggestion ,a directive that insinuated into our self conscious. Our parents impose overtly or covertly first roles on us. By establishing themselves as the parent with all knowledge and authority and the child as ignorant and subordinant. One generation after another of people being unleashed on the world with no self acceptance but an arm full of roles imposed of them. Walking out into the world, leaving the parental home ignorant and ....already subordinant.

Expectations they have to fulfill. No self authority.So it's no wonder we get out in the big world and find we are easily manipulated to do something or think of ourselves as we really are.

So its to accept more roles. In lieu who we really are. Until one day the concept of SELF awareness and SELF Authority and Self Acceptance is shown to us. So easy to intiate that, no beliefs, no gurus, no shamans, no spirit guides, angels, books, tapes, videos--anything external of us. The only requirement is You. And we mentor each other in this process, not manage, but mentor. We are so stuck in the role it has replaced our reality that we need an outside observer to tell us what role we are assuming. Why else do we go see therapists so they can tell us we are in Victim mode, or Savior Mode, whatever. Any sort of self growth one does, any hard core work they are going to be challenged by the roles they assumed.

Any role is imposed by a thought and an attached emotion. Not just the 'bad' emotions like hate and anger. It can be what is viewed lighter vibrational emotions can be used to manipulate us into a role.

Love is used as a judgement. So is caring. I used to feel so guilty for not loving everyone. Thusly it has been imposed on me if I don't love them, support them in their role, I must hate them. Logically one can say 'I don't know everyone to love them." This is true, how do you love a role? It's impossible to love what's not real. We try. One thousand zillion failed relationships tells us we are trying to love what isn't real. Love imposed -- a condition that I MUST love everyone. Then it is not unconditonal love. If we are loving roles, identifying with them, we are simply loving the role. We know what happens when a role is thrust in our face and we take it at face value. The relationship fails when the true colors of the other person is revealed.

If I HAVE to love everyone in order to avoid being labeled as a hate monger that isn't unconditional love. I'm doing it to avoid being labeled.

What I have noticed about authentic people is they are not nice. Another discussion. But it's true. Nice is another role imposed on us . A sort emotional role. "I will BE nice instead of being myself." "If I take the high road that automatically can judge others as taking a low road."

We judge higher emotions very subtly, place judgement on them when actuality until we come into our Higher expression we have no idea what love is. We just learned a artifical reproduction of Love from role playing.

Hate and anger are also misaligned in role playing . We really don't know what it is. I have sat through thousands of sessions with people who wanted to learn to control their anger. They weren't angry. They were frustrated. People told them they were angry--- imposed anger on them. Then they aren't even sure what emotions are present anymore because their teachers and their authorities , in their roles, have misled them.

Animals are capable of great unconditional love. If you watch a wolf correct her cub she'll snap at it because its learning a behavior that will not keep it safe. Snap, nip, bite, sit on it. It's charming and natural she should do so. A naturally occuring authentic expression of who she is.

But if another adult even mentions that another is doing something unsafe and risk leading others into unsafe territory then those who issue the warning are deemed .....haters and abusers. The powers that be have to love this mechanism. We do their work for them in role playing. We become self policing instead of self governing or...having self authority. If we all had self authority we'd not have this endless circle.

I can no more tell anyone who is operating under their own volition what to do than I could fly to the moon. I couldn't hurt them. No matter what I said I can't do it. People who are managed by their own roles are very easy to jerk around. Anything sets them off. So we are expected to manage the roles of 7 billion peoples to avoid affronting what isn't real in the first place. If anyone ever wondered what illusionary world means...could it mean this?

Role playing does not make us safe.

You can't hurt a role. It's not real. It's not who someone really is, they lulled themselves into thinking that is who they really are. So when the belief and the role break down our attachment to the role breaks down with it. This is observable , we see it EVERYDAY. In politics, in our relationships, its everywhere. I don't have to tell anyone it's out there, if they crack an eye...they see it for themselves. Showing not telling.

Authentic doesn't break down like that, there's nothing to break. You can't break what is real. Not that it's perfect. It's authentic. Perfection roles are the ones that kick our ass the most because even though no one is perfect we keep attempting to find it in each other. We keep trying to create it in role playing in ourselves.

That is when the puzzle of "Loving Everyone' comes clear. One were guilt tripped into it. It wasn't love in the first place. How are we loving that which isn't real in the first place? Is okay to not love something that isn't real, that is created? It's okay if we don't like the role that Jennifer Aniston plays on tv but its not okay to not accept the role that the common populace is playing????

A role breaks down really fast because ...its not real. If something is real you can't budge it.

When playing mechanisms are called out, and the break down the person experiencing it has a .....healing crisis. Some might call it a self identity crisis. SELF doesn't break down. Self looks at the labels and manipulations, and the roles and says, "Why would I get upset over something that isn't real?"

Spiritual mastery is a mis leading article in itself. Spirit doesn't need to be mastered it needs to be accepted. Role playing has to be mastered. The roles and their attached emotions aren't real and we are compelled and guilt tripped into making them real...because this is how the powers that be controlled us. We were told we sucked , they let us know we sucked, we resisted and took on roles that 'appeared' to be greater than the suckitudinous role they imposed on us. But it still wasn't real. When people impose their role and attempt to make it reality are naturally angry and hateful towards those who are trying to expose reality. But its their self loathing. If it were not for self loathing and being taught to dislike ourselves the way we are, we'd not have to assume any sort of role.

A friend and I discuessed the sudden upswing in pumping all sorts of roles, and their 'information' out into the public in recent years. And the props. Do people who attach themselves to a guru know that ultimately they are a sort of prop? Living back ground scenery. I percieve this as being demeaning to be reduced to a prop rather than who one truly is. It's just to keep the story the drama and roles in place.

Having to inundate the consciousness with roles and beliefs beliefs and props....that props it all up. Why the sudden desperate surge to broadcast something that we aren't?

Because enough people are coming back to themselves. For every one person who begins to move in their authenticity we break down thousands of roles. Role breaking not people breaking.

People draw themselves up and reconsider before assuming the role that has historically always controlled us collectively.

Authenticity in part means we are not judging the emotion but questioning why we have it. Questioning the role and why we assumed it. Identifying it . It's not real. So when we access this role playing in others and they determine they are being attacked, one has to say 'how do attack that which isn't real?"

I mentioned in another thread why does everyone feel attacked, feels negative energy in this forum? They are feeling thier own emotions perking up to be examined. Are they truly OURs? Our exchanges here serve to perk up emotions to be examined. Did we pick them up via role playing, or by intuiating some thing that assumed a role of their own. All empaths, if they don't want to live under a rock their whole life, have to get in the habit of examing their feelings to manage their daily existence. Is this mine? Is it someone elses? We KNOW this. Why are we not using what we know?

How do we love that which isn't real? How can you do ANYTHING to something that isn't real? Confusing attachment with love. I love my Welsh dresser. Is that real love. No I'm attached to an article that serves a purpose, a function but can't really love me back. So I know its attachment.

Roles hurt the ones who assume it. When someone is authentic , you aren't hurt. One can't diminish the SELF. Nor are you manipulated or blinded by role playing. People who are used to role playing thinking its reality get sucked into these dramas.

We only need to come back to ourselves.

None of us can know who we really are if we all assuming a role. The person who assumes has no idea who they are because they have not been shown their true authenticity. Authentic people or those striving for it ....are coming forward now to SHOW it. Not tell it, stand in the SElf we all share not re inforce stories that we don't all share.

We can heartily and loving support people in the roles they've assumed. Or passively. Or we can actively say, "You are in a role. Now you are hurt. Role's hurt us. " If one is hurt they've been in a role.

Simple as that. And if you can continue play it out , the time will come when your spirit your SELF will rise to show , that role is not who you are. It is there to SHOW us. A role is somewhat limiting. One even limits from having growth that would take them to new highest of potential . Being in one's self doesn't hurt.

Because so few people have experienced self expression and genuine emotions they left with only the mind emotions, that are used for manipulation of others, of one's self.

Our self never fails us. We don't have to defend it. We aren't triggered into defending it.

Neither do roles accomadate Source either. If Source however one chooses to view Source--God, creator, source, energy--is seldom mentioned. Self is seldom mentioned. It's only second and third party entities that are mentioned. Aliens, angels, spirit guides, faeries, etc. Or it is ONLY these second and third party entities that give Source energy (however one chooses to express it) lip service. Just to prop things up a little. It is debatable whether those 2nd and 3rd party entities have our best interests at heart. Our selves have our best interests at heart. Alas, looking out for one's own SELF has been labeled a SELF-ish mechanism.




I have been watching this thread with interest. It is interesting because of the patterns in consciousness being played out here ... and in full public view. Yet their does not seem to be a lot of conscious awareness of how these archetypical patterns are playing everyone. In all that we do, these patterns rule our behavior, unless we work to recognize them and decide not to allow them to play though us. I'd like to bring these into clarity for others on this thread and for me as well with this little post. There are 2 parts to this, emotions, and archetypes.

EMOTIONS:
Lester Levenson, founder of the Sedona method believed that 'emotions ARE the programs that run us all'. I am inclined to agree with him after doing emotional releasing work for many years. For example, if you are feeling joy it will not occur to you to commit suicide. (Duh! Pretty simple huh?) One of the emotions that catches us all and can end up gripping us for a long time is arrogance. We all have this from time to time. (and if you think you're immune then I'd like to suggest that you have not spent time observing yourself deeply) The hallmark of being caught in arrogance is that (1) You feel you know it all and are RIGHT! (2) You have the answers (3) You do not experience compassion.

In Lester's chart of emotions, which I think is spot on.... there are a number of frequencies of emotion which he called hate and as they raise in frequency from lowest to highest here they are:
apathy *** grief *** fear *** anger *** lust *** pride *** and the lower octave of courage.
These are all forms of HATE, because when you are experiencing these frequencies you are focused on being separate from others, rather than inclusive. Actions taken when you are experiencing these emotions move you into a place of more separation from the 'others' around you.

Then there are the frequencies of LOVE, which are still emotions, by the way. Here they are in ascending order by frequency:
upper octave of courage *** joy *** love *** acceptance *** peace
These are love frequencies because when you are experiencing them you feel inclusive of others and your actions are pro-communion with the 'others'

When someone takes action from an emotion of hate is is painful to others, but the most pain comes from the highest frequencies of HATE... and those would be arrogance and courage. If you are 'attacked' by someone who is temporarily stuck in arrogance it hurts like hell... because it is pure hate aimed at you with a very strong energetic wind behind it.

Look carefully at the posts on this page and you will see a couple that are squarely in this emotion. The posters are not aware of it, because when we (you and I) are caught in arrogance we cannot see it. Sad but true.

ARCHETYPES:

Archetypes spring into action to re-create the drama and trauma of living in 3D. One of the biggest ones I see is the PERPETRATOR/VICTIM pattern. I'm afraid I am still learning not to get caught in this one. I usually play the victim, but on occasion I can play a pretty good perp. Look over the above posts and you will see this archetypical pattern in effect. Now, just in case we think any of us are immune to falling into this pattern, begin looking closely at your life and you will see it everywhere. Here are some obvious examples:
police/criminals,
PTB/humans,
plaintiffs/defendents,
rapists/victims
In fact it is pretty hard to go through a day on earth without seeing it play out around you dozens of times.

I know this thread is not about this topic, but what a grand opportunity to really look at what is happening. This is what we need to become conscious of.... This is what we need to become free of ... in order to raise our frequencies and in order to become truly sovereign.

[RedeZra]

One of the things I regret more than anything else was when I was 20 years old, I converted a christian buddy of mine. It was never my intention for him to become an atheist. I was trying to show him how awesome spirituality was, but that doesn't matter. What matters is, as soon as he no longer had God in his life as a devout christian, he soon became a drug addict. He became a hedonist, and he became a criminal. He went from being an over all good person, to a piece of sh!t.

i appreciate an honest report and if you regret then repent to God


"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea." - Mark 9:42


you think this and that but if you don't know then why try to convince someone to share your thoughts when you're not sure

sin makes the soul dense and so the less we understand

Jesus has the power to forgive sins and make the soul spotless again so we can see and understand truths



I just don't get that. How can Lucifer have anything to do with mystery religions? He wasn't even around back in the time of Babylon. I don't mean to question the authenticity of your friends story, but it is hard for me to believe is all. Further, it just doesn't jibe with any of my personal experience.
Further more, the idea of hell, I just don't get it.
In almost every concievable fashion reincarnation makes religious sense.
It was even in christianity before it was taken out so hell would seem like more of a threat, and give the church more control.


Satan or Serpent or Lucifer was in Eden before the Flood and before Babylon

Satan is a spirit who rules this world but Jesus is just around the corner to dispose Satan and bind him in Hell

together with his spirit legions and sadly some of us too


there is no Hell you say because you have not seen Hell yet

then i suggest you go check out some testimonies on youtube

[Unified Serenity]

Now here's a guy who is sure of himself:

ZhbXSEm-HCA

[etm567]

I've given plenty of verification for why the Bible and other sacred texts were not understood to be literally true by our ancestors, and if you go back and read my posts carefully, you will find it.

The verification I asked for was of 'giants' skeletons being hidden in the Smithsonian. You've been unable to provide this.

Hi, Ishtar --

I'm really replying, very briefly, to your first post, I think. I have just done the tiniest bit of research. And what I found immediately was that, yes, Anu was considered a [god?] by the Assyrians, Babylonians, and I think the Sumerians. He was the god of the air or sky, Enlil was the god of the earth, and Ea/Enki was the god of the oceans or water. Forgive me, I forget the precise designation.

And this response is coming out of my reaction to a Zecharia Sitchin debunking video, which got my ire up, I must admit. Now, don't get me wrong: I do not necessarily believe everything that Sitchin suggested. Nor do I worship or even follow David Wilcock. This video I was so angry about was intended to debunk Sitchin, as if he had actually suggested that not only is Nibiru a planet that is in our solar system and comes around every so often, but that it IS going to come back soon and cause unbelievable havoc here on earth. I have not read his two most recent books, but in The Earth Chronicles he suggested no such thing. And, of course, he didn't really need to, for someone to take that ball and be off and running.

This woman in the video that I am bouncing off of I think has never read Sitchin's books. Can you guess where I'm going with this? Same as with D. Wilcock. I'm not a religious follower of either, but people sometimes respond to an impression of someone they get from the internet, without ever reading the works themselves. That is what I object to. You may have read Sitchin, or you may just be responding to what you have read about Nibiru and the Anunnaki on the internet, much of which was inspired by Sitchin. But saying he inspired it is not the same as saying he said this was so. He didn't, as far I can see.

Sitchin, in my opinion, was always very careful to present his work as -- suggestions of possibilities. He would not say when he thought Nibiru might come back -- at least, not inany of his books that I ever read, and I read all six of The Earth Chronicles. He also made very specific points about the successive civiliations that went on for a period of many thousands of years, nearly three times as long as western civilization since the time of Christ, and how each successive civilization may have rewritten the myths they inherited -- by this I mean what the Assyrians got from the Akkadians, and what the Akkadians got from the Sumerians, if I have spelled those correctly.

But it seems as if they all believed that Anu was indeed a god, or something like that. Someone who was very important; someone who had some serious authority.

I haven't yet found what Nibiru was called in Enuma Elish. Maybe -- Marduk? But that would be because by then Marduk was in the ascendancy, if things went as Sitchin postulated. And then the Akkadians -- if this was written by the Akkadians -- or the Assyrians would have put Marduk's name in, to replace the god who had been in that position for the previous 2,000 plus years. Sitchin also suggested that Marduk came into power in the Age of Aries, preceded by Enlil in the Age of Taurus, preceded by Enki, maybe, as Gemini? I don't know, don't remember. I'm pretty sure about the shift from Taurus to Aries being to Marduk, from whoever it was before. It is that "before" of which I am unsure. And of course that age, of Marduk, or Aries the bull, was followed by the Age of Pisces, and Christ.

The point of all this was that I must respectfully continue to disagree with you about the Anunnaki and Anu. I do not know if they were "gods" or spacement or etra-dimensional beings, but they were considered to be gods or something similar, and Anu was, indeed, the main one. And Sumerian civilization was pretty old.

I don't have any specific, rigid notions of what precisely happened then. More confusion than anything else. I'm pretty sure I don't like Yahweh. I like Enki much more. I don't like Enlil. Inanna was a lot of trouble. Sorry, she's your namesake, isn't she? (On edit, that sounds snide. I'm sorry about that. Didn't mean to be snide. Couldn't remember Big Mama's name. The one who helped Enki make the black-headed-people?)

More later? I hope that's okay.

ETM

[DNA]

One of the things I regret more than anything else was when I was 20 years old, I converted a christian buddy of mine. It was never my intention for him to become an atheist. I was trying to show him how awesome spirituality was, but that doesn't matter. What matters is, as soon as he no longer had God in his life as a devout christian, he soon became a drug addict. He became a hedonist, and he became a criminal. He went from being an over all good person, to a piece of sh!t.

i appreciate an honest report and if you regret then repent to God


"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea." - Mark 9:42


you think this and that but if you don't know then why try to convince someone to share your thoughts when you're not sure

sin makes the soul dense and so the less we understand

Jesus has the power to forgive sins and make the soul spotless again so we can see and understand truths




My regret wasn't so much in the real spiritual ramifications as it was the psychological.
Humans are fragile beings and need their crutches.

My entire point, which you are attempting to hijack in order to espouse your religious platform isn't that any real spiritual damage was done, it was that a working moral compas was in place, and even though I thought said person was strong enough and moral enough to succeed without it, I was wrong.

Red, I think the greatest obstacle for spiritual folks such as myself and christians such as your self to ever reach any happy medium is in the belief of eternal hell.
Sure, hell is possible for those to create if they don't pass through the tunnel of light and instead pass into the astral plane and create it for themselves, but all in all hell does not exist for most spiritual folks.

A reincarnational model is observed by myself. And it is my belief that it was in the original writings of the Jesus gospels, but it was removed to greater amply the power of the church.

There is even one instance of reincarnation mentioned by Jesus that through some kind of error the church left it in the bible.

The Gospel According to Saint Matthew.
17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

[modwiz]

I think NLP is a big part of the Old and New Testaments. :sarcastic:

[etm567]

I started this thread with the idea of laying out and examining what tangible evidence we have for the Anunnaki existing given that the person who originally told us about them, Sitchin, lied.

Sorry, but this simply is not true. I just was reading the earliest translation of the Enuma Elish, and yes, you are right it was done by one of those fellows at Oxford or
Cambridge, but he called them the Anunnaki (and this was prior to 1910, so it wasn't Sitchin's idea), and he referred as well to Anu, Enlil and Enki as gods. And the rest. Just saying.

[RedeZra]

My regret wasn't so much in the real spiritual ramifications as it was the psychological.
Humans are fragile beings and need their crutches.

God is not a crutch

it's good for the soul to strive for an Ideal who is Real and Righteous




My entire point, which you are attempting to hijack in order to espouse your religious platform isn't that any real spiritual damage was done, it was that a working moral compas was in place, and even though I thought said person was strong enough and moral enough to succeed without it, I was wrong.

sin is spiritual damage as it spots and tears the soul so only God can heal it





A reincarnational model is observed by myself. And it is my belief that it was in the original writings of the Jesus gospels, but it was removed to greater amply the power of the church.

There is even one instance of reincarnation mentioned by Jesus that through some kind of error the church left it in the bible.

The Gospel According to Saint Matthew.
17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

i know the Bible hints to reincarnation and i have no problem with it

but we spend time in between lives somewhere besides it is beyond our control this coming and going

it is up to God


the Bible also speaks about an end of an Age where we will spend time in Heaven or Hell

why do time in Hell when we can enjoy Heaven

[Sierra]

i know the Bible hints to reincarnation and i have no problem with it
but we spend time in between lives somewhere besides it is beyond our control this coming and going
it is up to God
the Bible also speaks about an end of an Age where we will spend time in Heaven or Hell
why do time in Hell when we can enjoy Heaven

Hmmm ... if you were to accept the scientific method (which arose out of Christian theology believe it or not)(that is, in the current version of Western "civilization"), that something consistently reproducible is usually real and valid in the 3d sense, then yes, reincarnation is real.

I've just finished reading three of the Michael Newton books (Journey of Souls, Destiny of Souls, and Memories of the Afterlife), of which the latter is particularly interesting in support of the scientific method, since multiple hypnotists produce the same results across multiple continents and languages.)

Michael Newton accidentally stumbled across a life between lives during the hypnosis of a subject, leading to decades long research into the subject, resulting in the formation of the Newton Institute, which trains in the accessing of life between lives using hypnosis. The method is now used around the world, and the interesting part is, the stories told by those under hypnosis, all have certain aspects universally in common:


There is no such thing as hell.
There is no such thing as judgement.
After each incarnation, we are always met with love, usually by our guide or someone we loved.
We study, learn, practice, plan, rehearse, coordinate, and team up for our next lifetime while in between lives.
WE choose what we want to learn in our next lifetime.
WE are our own hardest judges.
Incarnation is tough. A lot of time is spent in rest and recreation.
We are never alone. We CAN work to get clear, hear and receive support while living.
Incarnating on Earth is really damn tough, and yes, we're trying to do a boot strap boost of the planet's energy right now, and if we can do it, big payoff.
The only way to bootstrap the planet's energy is to do one's own shadow work.


And what is the big point of it all? Well as all the masters say, including Jesus:


Love is all there is.
How we relate to one another is all there is.
How to treat one another kindly is the hardest thing we will ever have to learn.


When we understand, and put love before any ideology, opinion, belief, emotion, practice or law, that is when we graduate.

Last one off is a rotten tomato!

Sierra :wave:

[RedeZra]

Hmmm ... if you were to accept the scientific method (which arose out of Christian theology believe it or not)(that is, in the current version of Western "civilization"), that something that is consistently reproducible is usually real and valid in the 3d sense, then yes, reincarnation is real.


i think too reincarnation is real

after all the Buddha speaks about it and the Bible hints at it

and then there are those who have flashes of remembrance of a past life


both the Buddha and the Bible speak of Hell

and then there are testimonies of those who have seen or visited Hell


i do not trust institutions to tell important truths

for if they were in the business of telling truths then they would soon be out of business

the establishment serve the elite who serve the father of lies so truth is just not acceptable

[jorr lundstrom]

Hmmm ... if you were to accept the scientific method (which arose out of Christian theology believe it or not)(that is, in the current version of Western "civilization"), that something that is consistently reproducible is usually real and valid in the 3d sense, then yes, reincarnation is real.


i think too reincarnation is real

after all the Buddha speaks about it and the Bible hints at it

and then there are those who have flashes of remembrance of a past life


both the Buddha and the Bible speak of Hell

and then there are testimonies of those who have seen or visited Hell


i do not trust institutions to tell important truths

for if they were in the business of telling truths then they would soon be out of business

the establishment serve the elite who serve the father of lies so truth is just not acceptable


LOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6NSVrXQfvc&feature=related

[BestLion]

Jesus has the power to forgive sins and make the soul spotless again so we can see and understand truths
My time in the Christian faith I kept noticing christian getting born again, and again, and again..never 100% fully sure if they did that 1 little sin that would send them to an eternal hell. I noticed they were miserable people. Yet on Sunday they would repent in the morning 'again' and be good with Jesus, then testify how wonderful it is to be a Christian. Christians are not happy people as they CLAIM. They are miserable and always walking on eggshells in order to please this demanding god. An example. Jesus said he who looketh upon a women sins in his heart. As a 20 yer old man in a Bible College I noticed how miserable this made young males. Who were constantly lusting, masturbating, or secretly looking at porn..then a Church service would come , and they would have to do the entire born again stuff..AGAIN.
Following Jesus and his commands does not make a happy life...Thats only one example


Further more, the idea of hell, I just don't get it.
In almost every concievable fashion reincarnation makes religious sense.
It was even in christianity before it was taken out so hell would seem like more of a threat, and give the church more control.
Satan or Serpent or Lucifer was in Eden before the Flood and before Babylon

Hell is very real in the New testament mythology. "It was plagiarized from the Greeks Hades." The Old testament doesn't talk about hell only the New testament does. Jesus talks often about it. And the concept is not at all just. Stalin on his deathbed could repent and go to Heaven..Then a man who served Jesus all his life, and on his deathbed thought of a naked women, would land in hell for all eternity.


Satan is a spirit who rules this world but Jesus is just around the corner to dispose Satan and bind him in Hell
The Bible Satan , and Lucifer are not the same beings..most Christians think they are, but in fact they are NOT! Also in the bible Lucifer still can enter and access Heaven. We often see stories of him in heaven talking to Elohim. The book of Job is a prime example of that.



there is no Hell you say because you have not seen Hell yet
Well sin is the condemnation of most Christians. Martin Luther, went into Aestheticism in order to try not to sin, he would sleep on hard floors, go into solitary rooms in order to keep from not sinning, yet he said he couldn't go 1 day without sinning. Thus he had to get around this , and made up from his twisting of the Bible the concept of Sola Fide "faith alone'..yet even that gives really no real assurance to Christians. And most protestant churches dont agree with this doctrine "Methodist, Arminians in faith..


then i suggest you go check out some testimonies on youtube
I've heard testimonials on first hand account while I was in the church...I just watched these same peoples lives and seen them always .sneaking, doing secrets sins, backbiting, splitting off into new sects, coveting..Testimonials from Chritians are nothing more then 1. delusions 2. New Christians who are just recent born againers who haven't tried to keep the Bibles laws 3. outright deception, by liars "think televangelist"4. people wanting attention.
Read the Bible..or read the book of Mathew where Jesus laws down the law on the Sermon on the Mount..Then watch these Christians lives...you'll see after time..their is NOT 1 of them that does that stuff!
As i said before it is a religion of misery and never doing enough to please this god. it is not a happy religion!

[Ishtar]

Etm, you're in the thread that was pulled out from the main one, but anyway, to answer your points... you said you'd read six of the Earth Chronicles but it's in his 1976 eponymous TheTwelfth Planet that Sitchin makes his claim that Nibiru is in fact the 12th planet. He says that it's an undiscovered planet behind Neptune, and it makes a long, elliptical orbit which brings it into our solar system every 3,600 years.

The planet associated with Marduk was the one we call Jupiter.

But my main objection ~ apart from there being no evidence for Anunnaki living on a planet outside our solar system and also that it is never mentioned in the Sumerian texts ~ is summed up perfectly by one of my favourite authors, William Irwin Thompson.



What Sitchin sees is what he needs for his hypothesis. So figure 15 on page 42 is radiation therapy, and figure 71 on page 136 is a god inside a rocket-shaped chamber. If these are gods, why are they stuck with our cheap B movie technology of rockets, microphones, space-suits, and radiation therapy? If they are gods, then why can't they have some really divine technology such as intradimensional worm-hole travel, antigravity, starlight propulsion, or black hole bounce rematerializations? Sitchin has constructed what appears to be a convincing argument, but when he gets close to single images on ancient tablets, he falls back into the literalism of "Here is an image of the gods in rockets." Suddenly, ancient Sumer is made to look like the movie set for Destination Moon. Erich Von Däniken's potboiler Chariots of the Gods has the same problem. The plain of Nazca in Peru is turned into a World War II landing strip. The gods can cross galactic distances, but by the time they get to Peru, their spaceships are imagined as World War II prop jobs that need an enormous landing strip. This literalization of the imagination doesn't make any sense, but every time it doesn't, you hear Sitchin say "There can be no doubt, but..."

If you or anyone else wishes to discuss this further, can you kindly come over to the other thread: An examination of the Anunnaki and the Planet Nibiru (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37532-An-examination-of-the-Anunnaki-and-the-planet-Nibiru) because that's where I'll be.

[Sierra]

Hmmm ... if you were to accept the scientific method (which arose out of Christian theology believe it or not)(that is, in the current version of Western "civilization"), that something that is consistently reproducible is usually real and valid in the 3d sense, then yes, reincarnation is real.


i think too reincarnation is real
after all the Buddha speaks about it and the Bible hints at it
and then there are those who have flashes of remembrance of a past life

both the Buddha and the Bible speak of Hell
and then there are testimonies of those who have seen or visited Hell

i do not trust institutions to tell important truths
for if they were in the business of telling truths then they would soon be out of business
the establishment serve the elite who serve the father of lies so truth is just not acceptable

Hi RedeZra :)

Institutions? If you are referring to the Newton Institute, right now at this point in time, it is just a school to learn more advanced hypnosis techniques (a life regression takes an hour, a life between lives regression takes 3-4 hours and is handled differently apparently.) Are you referring to the church perhaps as an institution not to be trusted? Not sure ...

The life between lives hypnosis sessions do run into fear of hell at the beginning of regressions sometimes. But, invariably it turns out to be self judgement or false expectations, and is not based in reality. Same with judgement, there may be fear for young souls going before elders for counseling, but it always turns out to be a loving and kind environment where energy is directed towards how to accomplish further growth, not towards punishment and blame.

I'm curious though about one thing you said: How does one go to hell (I'm assuming you mean permanent place of punishment with no recourse, no parole etc.) and at the same time, continue to reincarnate as a soul having an experience in a human body?

Thanks. :)

Sierra