A response to Unified Serenity

[blake]

Hello Unified Serenity

I agree with you. Human nature is very complicated, and often is very controlled to keep us divided on what in the larger lens could be called petty issues. I think many people have a good heart. But I also have noticed how easily humans can offend others with their words, as well as how easily they are offended by other’s viewpoints. There seems to be many innocent factors that often appear to set people off in responding rudely. But I also think that a human’s greed, their angled, or limited perspective, and other factors often override their basic goodness from always shining through. The connection to goodness, I believe, is often disconnected when emotions are allowed to rule; often causing faltering logic which is necessary for good communication, as well as the progress to understanding another’s viewpoint. I believe that without clearer objectivity, and respect in communication style, the goodness of the heart is automatically turned off, often causing damage to themselves, relationships, and important events; which in turn can add to the downfall of the active support of caring about the foundational supports for all of us: liberty, freedom and honest money. So the TPTB don’t want average people to learn to communicate effectively and with respect. They want people to be loose cannons in their speaking habits, when not only is it not necessity, but it hurts us all, and helps keeps us divided and alienated; and therefore easier to control. Any time one loses their temper, they lose in life, as the old saying goes. Can you see how that might be true in many circumstances?

I have noticed that in the last few decades there has been a bigger push, perhaps in a manipulated way, for people to be less formal with each other. People seem to want to immediately have an overt atmosphere of friendliness and compassion for each other, without first building up that relationship to actually have a bona fide relationship in which one would actually care about another’s well being in a personal way. How many times might you hear people say “ relax, we are all friends here”, when in reality they are far from any standard of friendship that you and I have. In other words, they want the appearance of familiarly, and closeness before they have actually earned it. This superficial closeness, I believe, often bring down people's defenses, opening the door for abrupt disappointments, hurts, and misunderstanding; not to mention artful manipulation and various levels of theft by those of the more greedy and artful nature. I believe that a more formal approach to people casually acquainted assists in keeping one defenses up for all concerned, while keeping one’s energy where it belongs, until a true and mutual beneficial relationship has been earned by all involved. When someone truly knows you, they often will not get put off by some differing viewpoint of yours, and will be more understanding and forgiving of your human moods and expressions. Plus, when you allow people to become close to you, you are convinced by some personal standard that they are not going to take advantage or try to undermine you, allowing you to feel more relaxed in letting your guard down a bit while thinking out loud. Where as someone who is “superficially friendly” can become quite suddenly very unfriendly, totally closed to any effort of understanding, when hearing of some view of yours, or something that you may, or may not believe. People like labels. Understanding another who has a different viewpoint takes energy few people want to give someone who they are not emotionally invested in. So people love to label other people, wrongly or rightly, on what they interpret another to say. And with labels come assumptions, and often prejudices that at the very least will narrow the lines of communications, if not totally close them. And when that happens it often opens the gates of rudeness or worse, closing down the heart light, which can immediately make an enemy in two seconds flat. How sad, but how often I have seen it play out that way.

I believe humans need to develop more discernment about the reality of personal motivations and interactions between people of casual acquaintances, and learn the benefits of formal and, courteous communications to all .

Someone recently said in a post that in debate class they teach you to attack the idea, not the person if you wish to have a meaningful debate. I think a person who attacks the person, instead of questioning their ideas; don’t have a solid grasp of their own ideas. They therefore react emotionally instead of using their intellect and logic to think the ideas through. I do believe that personally when one loses their temper, they lose in life. Emotion may set you on fire, but your head must rule the action you take, and the words that you choose if you want to improve conditions, and not deteriorate them.


But to address the other issue that you seem to be responding too, as far as what I think Americans need to be doing to level the playing field between the PTB and the rest of us is pretty simple, don’t patronize the services that they use to control us with.

I understand most people do not like this answer because it makes them responsible for their own behavior in contributing to the mess we are living in, in my opinion. And many rationalize that just because they know what is wrong, and they consider themselves awake, and because they might support Ron Paul, and go to protest marches and write Congress, they rationalize they are making a difference; when in reality, in my opinion, they appear to be doing exactly the same thing as those who are not awake are doing. They feed the systems that are enslaving them.

Spending ones limited resources and time on protesting marches and writing congress to me is busy work that those in power love to see us waste our time and resources on in the big picture . I believe in local control and local power. I believe in not patronizing that which is not in the best interest of liberty and honest money. I try to only buy American. It is very challenging. And I know for every time I buy American, there are millions of others not buying American because it’s cheaper and more convenient not to do so. But because the majority of people are going to rationalize their actions, that is not going to change how I live my life. I don’t follow the sheep mentality who rationalizes why they don’t mostly by local, and don’t buy American. In my opinion, those people who have used their money that way are economic terrorist to the local economy in which the live. They are cutting their own throats for convenience and with a very skewed viewpoint that in the end they are actually saving money. To me, those people who do not buy mostly local and American fall under the saying, penny wise and pound foolish, while sustaining the beast who controls the systems that they force us to support. America has become the company store. So I like to ask people, who are complaining about the economy, over the last decade or two, where they have been spending their money.


If one complains about Monsanto, and still doing the majority of their shopping in supermarkets, are they not are cutting their own throats and that of their families?

If people truly understand how banking works in the creation of money out of “thin air”, then why do they still write personal checks, make deposits, use credit cards, do electronic banking, etc etc? Obviously, if you have daily and weekly interaction with the bank, on any level, you are helping destroy your wealth and that of your neighbors, let alone the entire country. Yet, out of convenience, people, will complain, but will not stop feeding the monster who is choking them to death. Why is that?

If people didn’t stop using cash, the banks would have had a more difficult time boiling you all in that frog pot into a cashless society that we essentially have today, that soon will be more in your face.

If people don’t like the TSA, why do they continue to fly as often as they did before? How many have spent any time brainstorming other ways of travelling or other alternatives?

Private jets are nice for the rich to charter, and it is not likely that the rich will offer too many lifts in their private jets for the average person to get to their son’s wedding across the country, or to an important medical conference one may be speaking at. But if many people just stopped flying for a while, I do believe the airlines would demand a big change there. Not for freedom, or for the people, or for what is right, but for their own pocketbook. Yet the average person will not cut down on their travel, or using banks, or shopping at supermarkets, or buying food grown thousand of miles from where they live. Too many, even awake, people will not brainstorm how to make alternatives work for them. It is just too convenient to keep the status quo, to go along to get along, and to shop the company store. The average person will not support the local farmer or the local economy. The average person will complain about TSA but will continue to be where TSA is.

I’ll ask again, and I know it is hard; and I know it is inconvenient. But look in the mirror, how are you, in your daily life supporting the economy in such a way that you are cutting your own throat by not actively supporting honest money? It really doesn’t take much to take back control, if everyone who was awake actually walked their talk. It’s just that, in my opinion humans are very good at rationalizing, and want the convenience that those in power are enslaving us with. It is my opinion that every time an awake person buys a ticket to fly, every time an awake person forsakes cash for personal checks and electronic conveniences , everytime an awake person shops in a grocery store buying food from California if they live in Vermont, every time an awake person is willing to give out personal information, every time an awake person says “ I have nothing to hide”, every time an awake person loses their temper, they are not just digging their own grave but the graves of their children and every other American family.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Carmen]

An excellent post Mr Davis, and one to read and contemplated at length. I agree with you. When we 'lose it' with emotions, we are back in the old paradigm of 'dog eat dog', street fighting, which achieves nothing! We are then part of the problem, no matter how justified we think we are.

Buying local is also an important issue for me. We do really have to 'put our money where our mouth is'! It soo difficult when just about everything is 'Made in China'!!

I am slowly becoming self sufficient. I love it when we sit down to a meal and everything is homegrown. That is very satisfying.

Cheers

Carmen

[blake]

An excellent post Mr Davis, and one to read and contemplated at length. I agree with you. When we 'lose it' with emotions, we are back in the old paradigm of 'dog eat dog', street fighting, which achieves nothing! We are then part of the problem, no matter how justified we think we are.

Buying local is also an important issue for me. We do really have to 'put our money where our mouth is'! It soo difficult when just about everything is 'Made in China'!!

I am slowly becoming self sufficient. I love it when we sit down to a meal and everything is homegrown. That is very satisfying.

Cheers

Carmen

Hello Carmen,


Thanks for the compliment on the post

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Mark]

Kudos, Mr. Davis. Very well said. Non-participation is the way through the current impass and Divide-and-Conquer as a macro/micro-strategy must be recognized, actively resisted and consciously released by each of us at every level of our interaction. Cooperation is key, Unity Consciousness, the way forward.

[Kristin]

I had read a post earlier that caught my eye. "There are a lot of very important things that have come up in threads here at Avalon that do not get the attention they deserve." Or something to that effect. I'm in agreement. There are a lot of people here who are working very hard to BE the change that they want to see. In y opinion it is the ultimate way to spend our lives. Now I've got a pair of slippers to knit for my husband. It's better then buying them and I'm supporting the local sheep farmers by doing so. I don't care and he doesn't care if they are ugly! LOL, They work, they function well, and they are sustainable. When they break down, I just take out the tools and make a new heal. I have to thank my grandmother for that. Cheers and great post.

Now I do need to point out that if I'm reading information that smells off, with regards to the prior poster, I will say something if I think it is important. I'm looking for truth and I find Love submerged in truth deeply therein. Uncomfortable maybe, not easy to look at yes, but truth exists and I believe it is at the heart of making effectual change on the planet.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

[CdnSirian]

Very thoughtful. I have almost left this forum a few times, not because anyone or any idea has offended me, but because despite the intelligent and engaging, and important threads, I find myself thinking that I really don't know any of these people and will I actually get to know them?

I get the 'comedy central' darkly ironic picture - from my overactive imagination - that we're all sitting in a cubicle in the NSA posting away...not really funny, I know. Not that I am thinking of any one person - no way I could tell. But I wonder am I completely wasting my time, I could be doing something productive blah blah
blah.

Then I chide myself I am just feeling lazy or feeling like I have nothing to contribute, I am not a scientist, insider, journalist, psychic remote viewer, activist, political scientist, etc. etc. Having been over exposed to the cult/large group training social engineering industry, I admit my viewpoint bounces a round a little.

In the neck of the woods my parents came from, personal references in social and business circles came in writing and went back three generations. Moving on to a less conservative area, personal references were still considered more valuable than a background check. As in, who do you really become friends with, or of whom, a serious associate. Thus the appreciation of the points made above.

I think a little formality would save a lot of writing/reading time on this forum. As in "hey I disagree with that and here is why". It may be the best forum to spend one's time on, I have no comparison. The first two days I was on, I was royally smacked up the side of the head a couple of times by individuals who have no clue who I am. So I stopped responding to anything for a while, just staying in the awareness that I must express myself very carefully. Not that this forum cannot go on without lil ol' me.:)

I think much on here is worth reading and thinking about. Much of it is information, or about information I have been reading for over 20 years and it is refreshing to look at, with updates, in the current clime. Community is usually a good idea. Confidence and certainty are wonderful to have, but not as weapons.

Can I picture LS, Ishtar and US sitting in a shared cubicle just laughing and thigh-slapping? Yeah! I'm not saying I really think that, or likewise about other long threads with a few marathon communicators (I admire it mostly). But I'm sure you know what I mean.

So yes, I think a little formality, a little word-dancing, would benefit us all, especially those when they feel attacked, or slyly insulted (and it may be so!). It sucks, I know. But it would help create the peace and bro-sis-hood most of us seem to want. Regards all.

[Unified Serenity]

This is a great post Mr. Davis, and I completely concur about the best communication especially when we don't know people truly is in a more formal style, and it allows for more clear and dispassionate exploration of ideas to garner the best possible solutions and maybe even the truth, hence blind justice. I have been on this forum for some time, and I have not until recently shown such strong emotion.

Now, naturally, I have entered into debates on here, but I began to notice a rather sad state of affairs here as happened on other forums. There seems to be an allowance for one group to make broad sweeping, insulting statements and never get challenged. There seems to be a standard of those of use who prefer the gentleman's and woman's formal conversation style not to respond in kind, we are taught to walk away, not engage, and not go "down to their level". Let me ask you though, how successful has this approach been?

The moment you engage they mock, ridicule, insinuate via comments that you are in the minority, stupid, stuck in a paradigm, fearful, oh the list goes on and on, and if you call them on it, they scream louder and pretty soon, while they started it and if you call them on the tactics they pull the victim card. People keep saying to stop talking and start doing. Martin Luther King Jr. did not bring about change by having nice little sermons all the time. The people did not make any changes happen by talking nicely about it, they went into peaceful action. Yes, MLK Jr. had a nice stage to speak his words eloquently while the people listened, and I have tried that, though I would not presume to say I am MLK Jr or any such thing, we each have a voice and right to be heard.

I will go back further to a sad state of affairs in our country, the fact there a was a time women were chattel. Unable to vote, unable to have a bank account without a male co-signer. The women occupied Washington D.C.. They were treated roughly, they shouted, and they made a stand. Times were very different then, and the bullies now have taken control in it. So, maybe it's because of my recent antics that your eloquent post could be heard, because I was not getting heard trying to engage in civil ways.

I will most happily engage in civil conversation, but sometimes it takes a different approach to be able to be heard. Bullies don't like to be stood up to and oratory bullies who use innuendo, ridicule, mocking etc don't like it when the tables are turned and someone can stand on their own in equal contest, so I sullied myself in their cesspool for the benefit of all because sometimes, you have to break eggs to make an omelette, and now maybe we can all see when those tactics are pulled on ANYONE questioning any points.

Mr. Davis, you have performed incredibly well this service to refocus the conversations. I will gladly step away from confrontational speech if they too will stop the methods they were employing to make those of the more formal conversational genteel style to keep quiet. It's wonderful to have the floor all the time and appear right when everyone who disagrees is too afraid to say anything because they may be perceived as cold, bitchy, and a trouble maker.

Sometimes people have to be made uncomfortable to engage in change. Sometimes others are mirrors of ourselves, and maybe I have been that mirror if my recent behavior has bothered some. I responded in my heart to what I felt was manipulative tactics whether intentionally done to me and others or not. Certain attitudes have been allowed to foster and the more I tried to address it, the more I felt I was getting painted into a corner. So, I jumped in with full waders on and played in the mud. Was it ladylike? No. Was it pretty? No. Has it brought us to this place and your post Mr. Davis? Yes, and for that I thank you.


Sincerely,

Serenity

[Ria]

Very good thread, it dose seem to be in two parts, food for thought ........or........thought for food.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I like to look at this subject in another way.

Right now we have a system of systems that involves jobs that people do to survive. Some of those jobs produce the tangible goods and services, the rest support the functioning of the many sub-systems. The fact that we are all here proves the system works at keeping us alive. If we removed the system and left the jobs doing the creating what would we have? We'd have a whole lot of people doing nothing and some trudging off to eight hour plus days of hard labour. But other than that, nothing would change. Oops, except a whole lot of people now would have no way to draw the goods and services they require, so demand would drop and the number of jobs would shrink. But if everyone shared in the work, then everyone could rightfully demand their share of the goods and services available. Wealth would be a measure of worldwide tangible assets divided by its population. That would be the weight of its currency, its value. And currency must continually move. So there would be no savings accounts, just current accounts - for immediate needs and wants.
Point being that as things stand the wealth of the world is unfairly distributed, and there may have been a need for that in the past but in todays world it is unacceptable. Especially when that money entrenches itself in, let's just say, irresponsible hands. This is what drives the emotional drama on so many levels, in so many different ways.
It is also a remarkable reminder of the resilience of the our race and its incredible ability to adapt and to flourish against all odds - even when so much is taken from them and so little is given in return, regardless of who is to blame.
People are in essence good, I agree. And they emulate the good they see in their betters. They emulate them because they want to be like them. Not because they are evil but because they are human. It is natural. But since the game is skewed and the level-playing field idiom is just a propaganda campaign to keep the masses in the game, emotions get a little heated and misdirected and base. In the midst of this confusion, people scramble for a place as far up the financial ladder as they can comfortablely afford psychologically, without making a ruinious mess of their consciences.
Somewhere in the midst of this massive haystack of conflicting information the tiny needle of truth is to be found, we are told and we are expected to discern the truth, pick a side, choose a cause, prepare a strategy. Why are we surprised by the resulting chaos?
The death of an individual's paradigm must go through the five stages of grief. Just as the collective worldview must.
REcycling, as a small example, took decades to catch on. These days global warming advocates are popping up everywhere. Now its the Occupy movement. Still, there are the extremes who blow up pipelines and buildings as their statement. While still others go and bomb the crap out of countries.
No worries, either way. They are all the symptoms of a dying paradigm.
They will pass.

[write4change]

This is an excellent post with lots of things that need to be discussed and thought about. I am running out of time that I have to leave the house but I will just jot down some things that instantly came into being in my mind.

It does not take a total boycott to be effective and eliminate a corporation sometimes. Circuit City went bankrupt quickly because it was so obvious and so offended so many people. Remember the story, they were doing well profit wise but ever so greedy like corporations they fired almost their entire staff and especially the older and more experienced who were making the great salaries of about 13.00 an hour and they offered them their jobs back at minimum wage. This was so overstepping the concept of working hard would get you ahead and the American Dream that people simply said I am not crossing that threshold again. I know I did and I had bought my prior computers from them. Within six months, they were done. That is because they function on such close margins that taking away just 10% of their business kills them. If people got that you could take down the big boxes one by one. Next on the list in my opinion should be Best Buy. As these types of things occur one by one, you are putting a check on existing corporations and giving people time to adjust their purchasing power.

Next, start writing business that you are not a consumer you are a customer. That concept change having grown up as a customer incenses me. I do find and patronize small businesses that get to know me as customer and appreciate my business.

One of the reasons, I joined SDS in the 60s was the colleges stand against PDA--public displays of affection. In my day as simple as handholding. But like dress codes, I never thought that removing rules people would show up in class in a g string and shower clogs. I often ride the bus in LA and I have seen practical lap dancing across the asile from me. Totally gross and desencitizing if you were raised that way. Touching looses intimate as well as sacred value. I have lived to see why libertarianism does not work---the majority of people do not govern themselves well. I use to wonder why we had all these laws about spitting on the sidewalks etc. After living in Occupy LA , I now know why.

During Clintons process of being impeached, I saw a program of PBS in which there was a state function and gong thru the receiving line were all these people making displays of kissing one another when it was common knowledge how much they disliked each other. It literally made me naucious. When i was growing up, public hypocrisy was not a virtue.

[CdnSirian]

Wow. Loaded thread - good one. Do we need a Princess Diana to walk ahead and find the land-mines? Not in this thread, but maybe sometimes in the forum, every day in life (and maybe especially in LA write4change ;) I've been there!).

Do we all struggle against the chains of the archetypes - as in, women can be powerful if they are priestesses, healers, caretakers, seers, etc. Except, the day comes when they want to vote. I hear you US, on the his/herstory about that. 150 years ago some women used a male name to get published. Camille Claudel did a lot of Rodin's work, but she couldn't sign it. She died in an insane asylum. Oh well, let's move on from the gender thing, we're trying to get past that right?

Write4change - I would love to hear all your stories. I really appreciate your account of the Occupy experience, it is the only personal one I have come across.

Yes, Libertarianism has its weaknesses - yet those weaknesses point out where our strengths need to grow. I don't think the Republican or Democrat wars/sanctions/foreign policies/trade treaties serve us the same way. Or the fact that laws do not apply to those who write them and govern us with them. Duh-uh. So I would be willing to try Libertarian ways for a while. Maybe the culture could grow up?

I have read all above, that's all I can say for now. Wish I had more time in a day. Appreciate all.

[161803398]

People don't govern themselves well because we don't self govern. In the good old days people used to say what they thought to people who were behaving badly. Now everyone wants to be a diplomat. It doesn't work.

[Davidallany]

The moment you engage they mock, ridicule, insinuate via comments that you are in the minority, stupid, stuck in a paradigm, fearful, oh the list goes on and on

True, I have just witnessed this today, the odd thing is that those insulting folks :) are themselves confused about life and reality. Personally, I feel great pity for them, i only wish to help them find that good person inside, and let go of superiority conceits for just one second.

There is a phenomenon in Iraq called summer's rain ,where rain doesn't get people wet, because of the meager amounts of it and becuase of the strong heat from the sun :)
So there is a song in Iraq with the following lyrics:
Your words are summer's rain, doesn't wet those walking under it

Warmest regards ladies and gentlemen.

[aranuk]

Most of the members here have loads of interests in common. We are Avalonians here. We joined this forum willingly. I know I did, and I know when I was invited to join by Bill I can honestly say hand on heart that I felt priveledged to join this forum. I remember I filled in the forum questionare and probably messed up posting it and I wrote to Bill asking why I hadn't been accepted. I thought my God they really want saints in there and I am not cutting the mustard. Surely I can't be that bad a person. I also thought what did I reply to in the questionare that he didn't like? Bill replied that he hadn't received my questionare and sent me another. I filled it in the exact same way and posted it thinking I was wasting my time and lo and behold a reply came back asking me to sign in to the forum. Yesssssssssssssss!!!! We are like the 6 blind men describing the elephant, need I say more? I lack knowledge in many areas we chat about here and I learn. I also can offer my snippets of wisdom occasionally. If the 6 blind men stop arguing what they know against what the other 5 know they end up knowing only a small part of the Truth about the elephant. If they tell each other what they feel they build up a truer picture of that reality. Simple really. Difficult when we forget. We must try though.
A guid new year to all and may it be a healthy one in all aspects.

Stan

[Arrowwind]

:wave: Hi write4change... You came back! good to see you!

You know I agree with all that has been said here.
From Mr. Davis to United Serenity's response
and all in between.

All are pretty eloquent
and make good assessments of the situations going on here
from different perspectives
on how the disagreeable aspects
of communicaiton could be contended with


I surely vascillate between the two most opposing stances.
there are times when we must stand up and call bull**** when we see it
There are other times when we must quitely work in the backround
doing what we believe is essential for growth and evolution
Both dances need to be danced for real change to happen
is how I see it.

Somewhere between the two
is where our political and social salvation lies.

In a more self serving move I am going to take this opportunity
to link you to a thread that promotes a movie I think well worth viewing
It does address some of Mr Davis' economic/social change/social responsibility concerns.
which I feel is not discussed nearly enough on this forum.
Instead of all the fear mongering and wake up calls
how about some real planning to make the change happen?
2012 - Time for Change
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37778-2012-Time-For-Change

[CdnSirian]

Unified Serinity "There seems to be a standard of those of use who prefer the gentleman's and woman's formal conversation style not to respond in kind, we are taught to walk away, not engage, and not go "down to their level". Let me ask you though, how successful has this approach been?" Thanks US for continuing to communicate and in some cases really stick your neck out..

The formality I referred to is not the same as walking away, not engaging, or going down to any other level. It is diplomacy, or "word-dancing", or cleverly avoiding a conflict, not to be clever, but to be able to keep a clear path and make one's point. It is sparring in a sense, fencing in a sense, avoiding barbs and skillfully ignoring them, and again, making one's point in spite of an attempted derailment.

It is out-maneuvering, somewhat out-politicking, (and damn if I were any good at it I'd have the "school-of" out there somewhere or be the dean by now...) and maybe it's giving up putting someone in their place and simply making your point.

Probably the worst thing you can ever do to anyone is ignore them...so the "gentleman" or "gentlewoman's" way would be to let them save face, a little, so they don't have to commit seppuku, and then, simply repeat your point.

Not that I'm an expert or I would be a household name. Just been watching the game for a long time. ;) Regards.

[Unified Serenity]

Sadly CdnSirian, I found that it was ok to be portrayed a certain way when they did not like my posts. All I had to do was question the veracity of some claims to be ridiculed... blah blah blah.... you have read my views. I find that very poor bullying behavior has run rampant on the forum by some, and got tired of it. I find making broad anti religious statements and when sharing why I disagreed .. .. the same ol same ol tactics ensued.

One of the best ways to not feel attacked is to not throw mud first. I got tired of it and threw some back after a while. Today, I tried to model / mirror the behavior in a bit over the top manner and funny thing I was actually called on it by some who have spent a great deal of time and energy doing it to me and others. So, I guess I am one of those people who you read about in the paper, you know a little child is being hurt and 6 grown men stand around and do nothing while a little woman steps in to stop the bully and the crowd cheers. I am not looking for cheers and neither was she.

I just have gotten really tired of biting my tongue, playing nice, and watching these so called love and light perveyors say some pretty horrendous things. So, if my actions deeply offended you or anyone, I apologize for that. I do think many though might understand if they step back and really read my words. My response to Mr. Davis was not about women's rights. It was about bullies and how they have run amok in our society. It's obvious to me that my words have fallen on deaf ears and/or blind eyes.

I bid you peace,

Serenity

[gripreaper]

Aw come on, mud fights can be fun!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZQH7ZZoPZ4

[blake]

This is a great post Mr. Davis, and I completely concur about the best communication especially when we don't know people truly is in a more formal style, and it allows for more clear and dispassionate exploration of ideas to garner the best possible solutions and maybe even the truth, hence blind justice. I have been on this forum for some time, and I have not until recently shown such strong emotion.

Now, naturally, I have entered into debates on here, but I began to notice a rather sad state of affairs here as happened on other forums. There seems to be an allowance for one group to make broad sweeping, insulting statements and never get challenged. There seems to be a standard of those of use who prefer the gentleman's and woman's formal conversation style not to respond in kind, we are taught to walk away, not engage, and not go "down to their level". Let me ask you though, how successful has this approach been?

The moment you engage they mock, ridicule, insinuate via comments that you are in the minority, stupid, stuck in a paradigm, fearful, oh the list goes on and on, and if you call them on it, they scream louder and pretty soon, while they started it and if you call them on the tactics they pull the victim card. People keep saying to stop talking and start doing. Martin Luther King Jr. did not bring about change by having nice little sermons all the time. The people did not make any changes happen by talking nicely about it, they went into peaceful action. Yes, MLK Jr. had a nice stage to speak his words eloquently while the people listened, and I have tried that, though I would not presume to say I am MLK Jr or any such thing, we each have a voice and right to be heard.

I will go back further to a sad state of affairs in our country, the fact there a was a time women were chattel. Unable to vote, unable to have a bank account without a male co-signer. The women occupied Washington D.C.. They were treated roughly, they shouted, and they made a stand. Times were very different then, and the bullies now have taken control in it. So, maybe it's because of my recent antics that your eloquent post could be heard, because I was not getting heard trying to engage in civil ways.

I will most happily engage in civil conversation, but sometimes it takes a different approach to be able to be heard. Bullies don't like to be stood up to and oratory bullies who use innuendo, ridicule, mocking etc don't like it when the tables are turned and someone can stand on their own in equal contest, so I sullied myself in their cesspool for the benefit of all because sometimes, you have to break eggs to make an omelette, and now maybe we can all see when those tactics are pulled on ANYONE questioning any points.

Mr. Davis, you have performed incredibly well this service to refocus the conversations. I will gladly step away from confrontational speech if they too will stop the methods they were employing to make those of the more formal conversational genteel style to keep quiet. It's wonderful to have the floor all the time and appear right when everyone who disagrees is too afraid to say anything because they may be perceived as cold, bitchy, and a trouble maker.

Sometimes people have to be made uncomfortable to engage in change. Sometimes others are mirrors of ourselves, and maybe I have been that mirror if my recent behavior has bothered some. I responded in my heart to what I felt was manipulative tactics whether intentionally done to me and others or not. Certain attitudes have been allowed to foster and the more I tried to address it, the more I felt I was getting painted into a corner. So, I jumped in with full waders on and played in the mud. Was it ladylike? No. Was it pretty? No. Has it brought us to this place and your post Mr. Davis? Yes, and for that I thank you.


Sincerely,

Serenity


Hello Unified Serenity,

You sound very frustrated. Life sure isn’t easy, and people are not always kind. I often think of Avalon as a very small town. And you probably understand the dynamics of a very small town; welcome to the human race.

I agree with you that sometimes stepping out of how one would normally respond often has an effect of having people sometimes pay more attention to what is being said. However, I find it to be a tactic that must be used with discretion, and not very often, or it looses it effect quickly.

I also agree with you that indeed one must break some eggs to make omelets. And I think many of us have broken lots of eggs to make omelets during various phases of our lives. Maybe this is your time to make a lot of omelets? :)

I have been on this forum for about a year. I am not always active, like many others. I come and go depending on the season, and my workload. Sometimes I stay away because the drama gets too intense. We have lost a lot of good posters over the year that I have been here. But still all posters bring interesting grist for the mind to ponder, and it’s mostly been a pleasure getting to know some of their thoughts on various topics as they share their knowledge and opinions.

I do not like mud slinging, and I was surprised, especially by what some normally gentle posters wrote to you. When I saw their posts, I do believe I posted a response or two; but I suppose we all have bad days.

It is impossible to read everything on this forum. So I probably don’t know the whole score card of which you refer to in this post of which I am presently responding to. But if there wasn’t some sort of battle, or drama going on, then this wouldn’t be the Avalon that I have come to know.

You appear to be a very bright and sensitive woman with a lot of life experience that you are presently processing. There always seem to be so much said in many of your posts. You also seem to have set healthy standards for yourself; perhaps because some of your standards are so high, others may not have yet approached that level for themselves; we all are in different places, walking in different shoes.

I often ask myself what I am doing on this forum. And I have decided that it is like my virtual local pub that I stop in to relax now and then while I have a cup of tea to see what is happening in the world, and to exchange some thoughts in hopefully a friendly manner. I would never get in a heated discussion in a 3D pub, and I wouldn’t get in a heated discussion on Avalon.

When I read that sometimes you feel like you painted yourself into a corner, I thought I would tell you that there is no need to paint yourself into a corner, as there is always the virtual door for you to leave through with your head held high, or change your activity from a virtual online discussion to something much more real in your life. But your mind appears to be so alive with ideas, and perhaps that is hard for you to do. When I need to ponder the day, or even forget about the day, I either garden or work on my Karate katas, these are healthy activities for me that just doesn’t exist in cyberspace.

In my opinion, no matter how much one shouts, people are not going to hear you unless they are ready and are open minded. And by you, I mean by anyone trying to express their views, right or wrong or in between. When people are rude to me on this forum, I simply go away and come back on another day, and usually say the same thing and get an entirely different response. You have a fine mind, as the old saying goes: don’t waste pearls of wisdom on swine.

People love to criticize. It is just human nature. People also like to be right. Some people feel great when they put others down. But you know all that, so why fight human nature? Why not just work around it, if not completely ignore it ?

I understand how unfair the human race is. I understand how hard it has been for many people, especially women, and still is. There have always been bullies on many different levels, and there always will be bullies. It is part of life to learn how to manage them. I personally like to ignore them, until I can figure out how to lure them into a deep hole! :) Sometimes that take a while, sometimes, with the right timing, it can be done swiftly. But bullies thrive on confrontation, and attention. So I choose not to give it to them.

Studying for a black belt in the martial arts not only puts one in a good place to defend them selvs physically, but mentally as well. I think more women and children would be wise to take up the discipline. But to get back on topic, this is a very small forum. I don’t believe this is a place to force change or be confrontational to anyone. Yet, I probably have been accused of being that way myself by some posters. I have had posters ask me to leave their thread, and I have. Why stay where you upset people. I have also had posters leave my thread, claiming they would never follow another one of my posts again. It was not my intention to get anyone upset with any of my posts or threads. I do not believe I actively insulted anyone. But I can’t control how someone will react to my words, and ideas. We all have different trigger points. I don’t think this is a place to confront or change anyone. I look at it as a place to share information, and experiences, as well as experiment with how people respond to various ideas.

There are posters who do not like my style, and have let me know it in no uncertain terms. Others may sometimes like what I write, and other times they won’t. And there are some posters who seem to always like what I write. So my advice to everyone is share your ideas, and your thoughts. This is the place for it. Chances are someone will have some appreciation for what you write, even if the more vocal posters disagree with you. Just by writing what you think, you might even change a person’s idea about something, and never know it. For those posters who want to make another poster feel stupid, or push their religion or political view on others, well ignore them, because they have a lot to learn. And, yes, it is my opinion that it is harmful to all involved to lower oneself to their level.

Leave the real battles for real life, not Avalon. If being on Avalon upset my day, it would be a negative place for me to be, and I think too much of myself to continue to stay in a negative place. I just can’t imagine letting any poster, on a public forum, who I do not even know, upset my day, or “paint me into a corner”

United Serenity you probably have a lot more admirers here than you are even aware of. Keep the standards up, they will catch up eventually.


Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Ellisa]

This is an interesting dialogue, and one with many points of view. That is what I feel is the important thing to learn from those recent disagreements, that is, that there will be different, valid point of view to your own.

We need to listen. It is not common to be listened to any more or to listen in return. People exercise their right to their point of view and blast off the screen anyone who questions them or, even, shock! horror!!, disagrees with them and both retaliate with abusive replies.

There are many civil ways to disagree, and if this forum is to debate the many interesting points that posters raise effectively, everyone here will not agree with everything posted. Disagreement is not a personal attack. It is not ridicule. If it is the poster should be removed, disciplined, counselled or whatever is the protocol for such behaviour. There is enough verbal violence around already.

Read what people post. Blake's post outlined an interesting and thoughtful position. Most of the replies have been in the same thoughtful mode. It would be nice if this spirit prevailed in all the posts here, and perhaps now it may, after all the air clearing that has gone on..

[CdnSirian]

US...some deaf ears but many listening! Regards.

[Sierra]

Confidence and certainty are wonderful to have, but not as weapons.

Lovely, dear, simply lovely. Thank you. :)

Sierra :wave:

[Anchor]

I find myself thinking that I really don't know any of these people and will I actually get to know them?

My aim is to know myself, then I will know you all!

Sorry if that's a bit pithy for this thread, but WTH :)

[blake]

Kudos, Mr. Davis. Very well said. Non-participation is the way through the current impass and Divide-and-Conquer as a macro/micro-strategy must be recognized, actively resisted and consciously released by each of us at every level of our interaction. Cooperation is key, Unity Consciousness, the way forward.

Hello Rahkyt,

Thanks for posting. I appreciate your comments.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[9eagle9]

If everyone's aim was to know themselves then this discussion wouldn't be necessary.

99.5 percent of new age, new thought and alternative sprituality seems to be geared towards knowing Everything but yourself. We know comets, secret socities, cults, religions, spiritual masters, the half a dozen people running the world, the of queen england. reptiles, lizards, gurus, psychics, healers, channelers, angels, ufos, aliens, shamans, the reincarnations of every historical figure ever birthed, government assholery, we know the center of the universe, and a photon belt, and astrology, and numerology and chakras, and meridians, crystals, animal totems, spirit guides. we think we know what 10,000 years ago when we haven't freakin clue what happened a day ago. We know Bill Ryan and David Wilcocks, and the guy who didn't know who he was until he found out someone made him into an MK Ultra psychic killer. Hell even he is starting to know who he is now and he had TWO different false identifies to work through! There's really not difference between what happened to Duncan and us save the for the extermity of it. He was brainwashed into killing and we're brainwashed into buy some sort of soap / perfume/ cosmetic so we'll get laid. All of us serving the same thing in different ways instead of serving what is important.

We know all this stuff but we don't what is the only meaningful thing there is to know. And until we know it...we don't know anything.




I find myself thinking that I really don't know any of these people and will I actually get to know them?

My aim is to know myself, then I will know you all!

Sorry if that's a bit pithy for this thread, but WTH :)

[blake]

If everyone's aim was to know themselves then this discussion wouldn't be necessary.

99.5 percent of new age, new thought and alternative sprituality seems to be geared towards knowing Everything but yourself. We know comets, secret socities, cults, religions, spiritual masters, the half a dozen people running the world, the of queen england. reptiles, lizards, gurus, psychics, healers, channelers, angels, ufos, aliens, shamans, the reincarnations of every historical figure ever birthed, government assholery, we know the center of the universe, and a photon belt, and astrology, and numerology and chakras, and meridians, crystals, animal totems, spirit guides. we think we know what 10,000 years ago when we haven't freakin clue what happened a day ago. We know Bill Ryan and David Wilcocks, and the guy who didn't know who he was until he found out someone made him into an MK Ultra psychic killer. Hell even he is starting to know who he is now and he had TWO different false identifies to work through! There's really not difference between what happened to Duncan and us save the for the extermity of it. He was brainwashed into killing and we're brainwashed into buy some sort of soap / perfume/ cosmetic so we'll get laid. All of us serving the same thing in different ways instead of serving what is important.

We know all this stuff but we don't what is the only meaningful thing there is to know. And until we know it...we don't know anything.




I find myself thinking that I really don't know any of these people and will I actually get to know them?

My aim is to know myself, then I will know you all!

Sorry if that's a bit pithy for this thread, but WTH :)

Hello 9eagle9,

Thanks for posting. I am in agreement with you and Anchor! Yes, indeed the ancient wisdom of "know thyself" has not been heeded by the masses. I am wondering why that is? Are humans so afriad of what they might find? I do believe that after they get through the initial shock of all the brain washed information that has been laden upon them, as they study more, and perhaps dig deeper, there could be amazing abilities, qualities and innate powers that they were never aware of. Perhaps qualities that they admired in others, that they didn't realize they had themselves. And perhaps they will learn to understand what trigers their own behavior so that they can truely become masters of their own fate? Perhaps they will find answers that they could not find elsewhere? Yes, first "Know Thyself" and if one does that, I am wondering how their lives will change? And if everyone did that, I am wondering if tptb would melt like the Wicked Witch of the West did in the Wizard of OZ?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[kingmonkey]

I wanted to PM Unified Serenity but it states she is on a 3day vacation. Is this a self chosen vacation or a moderator enforced one? Could someone clarify please. Thankyou

[blake]

I had read a post earlier that caught my eye. "There are a lot of very important things that have come up in threads here at Avalon that do not get the attention they deserve." Or something to that effect. I'm in agreement. There are a lot of people here who are working very hard to BE the change that they want to see. In y opinion it is the ultimate way to spend our lives. Now I've got a pair of slippers to knit for my husband. It's better then buying them and I'm supporting the local sheep farmers by doing so. I don't care and he doesn't care if they are ugly! LOL, They work, they function well, and they are sustainable. When they break down, I just take out the tools and make a new heal. I have to thank my grandmother for that. Cheers and great post.

Now I do need to point out that if I'm reading information that smells off, with regards to the prior poster, I will say something if I think it is important. I'm looking for truth and I find Love submerged in truth deeply therein. Uncomfortable maybe, not easy to look at yes, but truth exists and I believe it is at the heart of making effectual change on the planet.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

Hello Wormhole,

Thanks for your post. I do agree that there are many excellent threads that sometimes do not get the traffic needed to stay visable long enough to give posters a change to read them. I am always appreciate of posters who revive an older thread that I have missed, bringing it back to the top, and giving me a chance to read it. Avalon is quick paced. Blink your eyes, and you most likely will miss something interesting.

I am so happy you are supporting your local sheep farmer; I am sure your support has a wrippling effect beyond measure.

I too am looking for truths: within me, without me, within interactions amoung humans, within perpectives, and most importantly for me, the origin of humans and their relationship with the rest of the universe. Can you share a truth that you have found that you find significant to humans in general?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[CdnSirian]

It is interesting to look back on the different systems I have studied, all supposedly geared to knowing oneself, and remembering each offered an ongoing derailment of ritual, procedure, volumes of theory, history, devotion to ancient or current masters, all while chopping wood and carrying water both for the maintenance of one's own life and that to support the extra-curricular study. Gasp. And moving on after reaching the "enough of that!" stage.

Like Facebook just as one example, we are the product, not the user. I am not saying there is nothing to learn from systems, and I am interested in learning more. Any topic can become a rabbit hole. We can become the product in any arena. We can be made to feel we're missing something, we haven't quite got the point yet. Maybe this will explain it-- whatever new or revived data/theory that pops up.

It is wonderful to read many posts here, and examine yet more pieces of the puzzle. One of the ideas many seem to agree on here is that we are being manipulated, all the time, by the powers or seeming powers. Manipulated, or distracted, by the emotional content or careless or aggressive words from others.

There also seems to be an agreement that we are the relevant power in our life, despite invitations to believe otherwise. All good stuff, support and sharing is good. I would like to state the agreement on that, and note that anyone with money to spend has the power to choose exactly how to spend it. The ultimate power. We may have become consumers rarely treated like customers - and now (thanks for pointing that one out write4change) we can take that power back. Like, supporting the local sheep farmer and knitting socks.

I'm trying to stay on point here - getting to know oneself - and the esoteric tangle one can get interested into.

"We are so small beneath the stars, so large against the sky"..Leonard Cohen. Or is it the other way around. Leonard? Anyone?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Re my above post - I probably didn't explain myself very well and I read it over and see how much could be interpreted in different ways - but am out of time. Back to the world! Later!

[jorr lundstrom]

ROFLOL



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYMktaWQmtM


That chattering voice is a foregn installment. Why this commiment to it?

[blake]

I wanted to PM Unified Serenity but it states she is on a 3day vacation. Is this a self chosen vacation or a moderator enforced one? Could someone clarify please. Thankyou

Hello Kingmonkey,

I didn't know she was on a three day vacation until you pointed it out. I am not entirly sure, but I think it is imposed by a moderator and is not self chosen. I have no way of knowing why she has the vacation? But I look forward to her continued posts when she returns.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Tarka the Duck]

I haven't been party to whatever has been happening on the forum that has initiated the OP, but I think what I'd like to say is relevant: if it's not, I apologise - please ignore.

It seems this thread is (partly) about the way in which we "speak" to each other. I would be really interested to hear whether anyone has received what could be called 'abusive PMs'.

I have been told by another member that they have received abusive PMs on 3 separate occasions, from people who hold different views from them. I've read these messages, and was quite disturbed by their personal nature and nasty, aggressive tone.

The receiver has not contacted the mods, because they wished to sort the matter out themselves, and I have to respect their wishes. In 2 cases, an understanding has been reached, apologies were made and the matter resolved. The third case is still pending as the perpetrator has so far chosen not to reply.

If we want to establish a better world, we must look at our conduct, and respect for others -regardless of whether we see eye to eye about everything - must be key.

As someone said on another thread...Show You Care.

Kathie

[9eagle9]

If everyone's aim was to know themselves then this discussion wouldn't be necessary.

99.5 percent of new age, new thought and alternative sprituality seems to be geared towards knowing Everything but yourself. We know comets, secret socities, cults, religions, spiritual masters, the half a dozen people running the world, the of queen england. reptiles, lizards, gurus, psychics, healers, channelers, angels, ufos, aliens, shamans, the reincarnations of every historical figure ever birthed, government assholery, we know the center of the universe, and a photon belt, and astrology, and numerology and chakras, and meridians, crystals, animal totems, spirit guides. we think we know what 10,000 years ago when we haven't freakin clue what happened a day ago. We know Bill Ryan and David Wilcocks, and the guy who didn't know who he was until he found out someone made him into an MK Ultra psychic killer. Hell even he is starting to know who he is now and he had TWO different false identifies to work through! There's really not difference between what happened to Duncan and us save the for the extermity of it. He was brainwashed into killing and we're brainwashed into buy some sort of soap / perfume/ cosmetic so we'll get laid. All of us serving the same thing in different ways instead of serving what is important.

We know all this stuff but we don't what is the only meaningful thing there is to know. And until we know it...we don't know anything.



[QUOTE=CdnSirian;393604]I find myself thinking that I really don't know any of these people and will I actually get to know them?

My aim is to know myself, then I will know you all!

Sorry if that's a bit pithy for this thread, but WTH :)

Hello 9eagle9,

Thanks for posting. I am in agreement with you and Anchor! Yes, indeed the ancient wisdom of "know thyself" has not been heeded by the masses. I am wondering why that is? Are humans so afriad of what they might find? I do believe that after they get through the initial shock of all the brain washed information that has been laden upon them, as they study more, and perhaps dig deeper, there could be amazing abilities, qualities and innate powers that they were never aware of. Perhaps qualities that they admired in others, that they didn't realize they had themselves. And perhaps they will learn to understand what trigers their own behavior so that they can truely become masters of their own fate? Perhaps they will find answers that they could not find elsewhere? Yes, first "Know Thyself" and if one does that, I am wondering how their lives will change? And if everyone did that, I am wondering if tptb would melt like the Wicked Witch of the West did in the Wizard of OZ?

thank you. Yes this whole system would bust if we just got into ourselves. Returned to ourselves. They depend on our agreements to their roles and constructs. That is what system busting is, dropping the mechanisms that we assume to keep the system in place. You know what we do to 'fix' the PTB? We change their name. TPTW. Lol. As if. so in doing so did something change? No. They're still out there running around. Lol. We attempt to change them....not ourselves. The moment you start to look inside is when they stop running the show. Becaues it is a show, a drama, a construct. They decided who we are ,the role, and in ignorance made the agreement. So then we keep the show running.

Humans are afraid of what they might find.

Humans are afraid of what they might not find. We are all going to find the same thing inside--the oneness that everyone yarks about. Instead we struggle to have oneness by externally imposing it.

We are not aware of amazing abilities because we had some bs standard stuck out in the world of how 'amazing abilities should be.' So when the amazing ability pops up its not living up to a standard that doesn't exist. We compare it to a 'role' that someone has assumed.

We are comparing our realiness to something that isn't real ...and finding it lacking.

People who have amazing abilties have book offers, and TV? radio shows, and lots of popularity. Then the crunch comes and you find out these people don't know themselves at all. But we mill out tons of information from role players everyday.

People who know themselves are not known to those who don't know themselves. People who know themselves spot other people who are in the process of knowing themself right off the bat. And strangely there is not conflict. That doesn't mean they all agree on everything or disagree ...it just doesn't matter. We are not compelled to meddle with those who know themselves if we know ourselves.

And there is some work involved in knowing yourself. It's a process. You can transform your day by refocusing, off of external things, then you can make a daily habit.

It's all about one's self, and we've been taught that it selfish to focus on one's self. But ....When we focus on ourself we become more aware of other people, not less aware of them. Focusing one's self is not self absorption its a process of true awareness. Most times people attempt to focus on others to play out what they think they know. about themselves.

It does transform first, your life, and then the work you do for yourself begins to transform the lives of others by association. Not a whole lot of effort involved but we've been conditioned that we should 'do' something. Mostly for other people. "If I can prove myself to others then that will validate me". In doing that we set up a trap ourselves. At someone point we aren't able to prove to others because we are not putting ourselves out there but a false and small representation of who we are.

People who do this want to manage other people's lives before they've learned to manage their own. When we learn to manage our own, the inclination to manage others, meddle or 'do' for others ..evaporates. it just ends up happening on it's own.

We look for external things to give us a band aid. We ignore our fear instead of going it and saying. Okay here I am, I'm afraid. I guess I'm afraid. So...I'm afraid. FraidFraidFraid. I'm fearful, I'm angry, I'm frustated.

When you are in that space for a few minutes that energy just blows. Ther'es nothing to prop it up with. We ignore our fear and put a band aid of something else on it. Mostly because we don't know what we are afraid of. We are so tied up , so focused on 'out there' we don't even know what is going on inside. The amazing ability goes ignored. The abiltiy to transform your life because clues are there --the fear, the anxiety-- the FEELINGs are the clue. We ignore them. Have anxiety,ignore it till you can take a pill. We think ignoring it is 'overcoming it. Not focusing on it is overcoming it. It's not. It's like having a dead leg, and if you ignore it you can walk better..lol.. You attach more importance on it by ignoring anything.

I was raised in the sort of family where you 'can't do anything. Can't get a job, then I had the wrong sort of job, its wrong to think that way, what you want doesn't matter, look for security, you can't do housework right, you can't, you don't, you shouldn't. Everytime I wanted to enter into a extracurricular activity my mother would rush to the doctor to get him to say I had asthma and I did. I had psyschosamitc astham my motehr was smothering me. I couldn't breathe. For years after that I got sick everytime I did anything that was not within the presribed system. Doing nothing was the only way to stay safe, yet my lack of progress was judged. Your not doing anything with your life!

I can't!

I'm shocked that any one was able to make out of their parental home and not freeze and turn into a stone in the doorway. or the opposing value, "You are wonderful, you can do what ever you want, your the best, your a princess ' and you get in the big world and find out not everyone thinks you are a princess....you have a crisis. You're frozen. You need other people to prop up your role that was imposed on you.


We blather on about people judging each other but there's no one out there that can judge us as harshly as we are judging ourselves.

If we stop judging ourselves other people will have nothing to judge. When someone insults us the hurt comes from us because they've pushed our own judgement button. The moment the role has been assumed we know someone is judging themselves. When we say , stop the role playing we are saying, 'Stop the Judgement." Quit doing this to yourself. Then we're mean....lol. The role player needs a bad guy though. If one thinks someone is mean they are propping up the role. They need that mean, they need someone to serve the role. This is what the PTB does! They need our agreement to the drama they created.

That is what the role playing is based on. We've judged our inauthentic self , found it lacking, and chosen a 'better' one and then everyone has their role playing in place, so let the judgement begin. Then the mad scramble to find a 'better' role ensues. You're a healer? I'm shaman. Your a shaman? I'm a wizard! Your a Wizard? I'm super deluxe Sorcerer! Then we used up all available titles on the planet so reverted to ." I'm an alien, I'm a planet, I'm a galaxy, and I'm another dimension..."

Or I'm serving something from another planet, another dimension, another galaxy, another goddess. Okay then that shows you are in a state of servitude, you have slave mentality. One cannot serve something greater than themselves. There is nothing greater than yourself....so how the hell do you serve what is greater than yourself if it doesn't exist?! Duh-durpy te do.

Where does it end? It doesn't when all known roles are grabbed we either overlap and have conflict , or we make **** up. I'm Grog from Planet Xera.

We know something is going on but instead of looking at it we run away and look for something outside of ourselves. What we think is wrong with us is INSIDE US. So the solution is 'not out there.'


The 'thought' of other people and where they have been, and who they think they are, and who they were in a past life, and what they are doing and saying now ...isn't going to fix me. We know how we got screwed up but we keep trying to fix it by the same means that screwed us in the first place.

Out there.

[ceetee9]

Hello Unified Serenity

I agree with you. Human nature is very complicated, and often is very controlled to keep us divided on what in the larger lens could be called petty issues. I think many people have a good heart. But I also have noticed how easily humans can offend others with their words, as well as how easily they are offended by other’s viewpoints. There seems to be many innocent factors that often appear to set people off in responding rudely. But I also think that a human’s greed, their angled, or limited perspective, and other factors often override their basic goodness from always shining through. The connection to goodness, I believe, is often disconnected when emotions are allowed to rule; often causing faltering logic which is necessary for good communication, as well as the progress to understanding another’s viewpoint. I believe that without clearer objectivity, and respect in communication style, the goodness of the heart is automatically turned off, often causing damage to themselves, relationships, and important events; which in turn can add to the downfall of the active support of caring about the foundational supports for all of us: liberty, freedom and honest money. So the TPTB don’t want average people to learn to communicate effectively and with respect. They want people to be loose cannons in their speaking habits, when not only is it not necessity, but it hurts us all, and helps keeps us divided and alienated; and therefore easier to control. Any time one loses their temper, they lose in life, as the old saying goes. Can you see how that might be true in many circumstances?

I have noticed that in the last few decades there has been a bigger push, perhaps in a manipulated way, for people to be less formal with each other. People seem to want to immediately have an overt atmosphere of friendliness and compassion for each other, without first building up that relationship to actually have a bona fide relationship in which one would actually care about another’s well being in a personal way. How many times might you hear people say “ relax, we are all friends here”, when in reality they are far from any standard of friendship that you and I have. In other words, they want the appearance of familiarly, and closeness before they have actually earned it. This superficial closeness, I believe, often bring down people's defenses, opening the door for abrupt disappointments, hurts, and misunderstanding; not to mention artful manipulation and various levels of theft by those of the more greedy and artful nature. I believe that a more formal approach to people casually acquainted assists in keeping one defenses up for all concerned, while keeping one’s energy where it belongs, until a true and mutual beneficial relationship has been earned by all involved. When someone truly knows you, they often will not get put off by some differing viewpoint of yours, and will be more understanding and forgiving of your human moods and expressions. Plus, when you allow people to become close to you, you are convinced by some personal standard that they are not going to take advantage or try to undermine you, allowing you to feel more relaxed in letting your guard down a bit while thinking out loud. Where as someone who is “superficially friendly” can become quite suddenly very unfriendly, totally closed to any effort of understanding, when hearing of some view of yours, or something that you may, or may not believe. People like labels. Understanding another who has a different viewpoint takes energy few people want to give someone who they are not emotionally invested in. So people love to label other people, wrongly or rightly, on what they interpret another to say. And with labels come assumptions, and often prejudices that at the very least will narrow the lines of communications, if not totally close them. And when that happens it often opens the gates of rudeness or worse, closing down the heart light, which can immediately make an enemy in two seconds flat. How sad, but how often I have seen it play out that way.

I believe humans need to develop more discernment about the reality of personal motivations and interactions between people of casual acquaintances, and learn the benefits of formal and, courteous communications to all .

Someone recently said in a post that in debate class they teach you to attack the idea, not the person if you wish to have a meaningful debate. I think a person who attacks the person, instead of questioning their ideas; don’t have a solid grasp of their own ideas. They therefore react emotionally instead of using their intellect and logic to think the ideas through. I do believe that personally when one loses their temper, they lose in life. Emotion may set you on fire, but your head must rule the action you take, and the words that you choose if you want to improve conditions, and not deteriorate them.


But to address the other issue that you seem to be responding too, as far as what I think Americans need to be doing to level the playing field between the PTB and the rest of us is pretty simple, don’t patronize the services that they use to control us with.

I understand most people do not like this answer because it makes them responsible for their own behavior in contributing to the mess we are living in, in my opinion. And many rationalize that just because they know what is wrong, and they consider themselves awake, and because they might support Ron Paul, and go to protest marches and write Congress, they rationalize they are making a difference; when in reality, in my opinion, they appear to be doing exactly the same thing as those who are not awake are doing. They feed the systems that are enslaving them.

Spending ones limited resources and time on protesting marches and writing congress to me is busy work that those in power love to see us waste our time and resources on in the big picture . I believe in local control and local power. I believe in not patronizing that which is not in the best interest of liberty and honest money. I try to only buy American. It is very challenging. And I know for every time I buy American, there are millions of others not buying American because it’s cheaper and more convenient not to do so. But because the majority of people are going to rationalize their actions, that is not going to change how I live my life. I don’t follow the sheep mentality who rationalizes why they don’t mostly by local, and don’t buy American. In my opinion, those people who have used their money that way are economic terrorist to the local economy in which the live. They are cutting their own throats for convenience and with a very skewed viewpoint that in the end they are actually saving money. To me, those people who do not buy mostly local and American fall under the saying, penny wise and pound foolish, while sustaining the beast who controls the systems that they force us to support. America has become the company store. So I like to ask people, who are complaining about the economy, over the last decade or two, where they have been spending their money.


If one complains about Monsanto, and still doing the majority of their shopping in supermarkets, are they not are cutting their own throats and that of their families?

If people truly understand how banking works in the creation of money out of “thin air”, then why do they still write personal checks, make deposits, use credit cards, do electronic banking, etc etc? Obviously, if you have daily and weekly interaction with the bank, on any level, you are helping destroy your wealth and that of your neighbors, let alone the entire country. Yet, out of convenience, people, will complain, but will not stop feeding the monster who is choking them to death. Why is that?

If people didn’t stop using cash, the banks would have had a more difficult time boiling you all in that frog pot into a cashless society that we essentially have today, that soon will be more in your face.

If people don’t like the TSA, why do they continue to fly as often as they did before? How many have spent any time brainstorming other ways of travelling or other alternatives?

Private jets are nice for the rich to charter, and it is not likely that the rich will offer too many lifts in their private jets for the average person to get to their son’s wedding across the country, or to an important medical conference one may be speaking at. But if many people just stopped flying for a while, I do believe the airlines would demand a big change there. Not for freedom, or for the people, or for what is right, but for their own pocketbook. Yet the average person will not cut down on their travel, or using banks, or shopping at supermarkets, or buying food grown thousand of miles from where they live. Too many, even awake, people will not brainstorm how to make alternatives work for them. It is just too convenient to keep the status quo, to go along to get along, and to shop the company store. The average person will not support the local farmer or the local economy. The average person will complain about TSA but will continue to be where TSA is.

I’ll ask again, and I know it is hard; and I know it is inconvenient. But look in the mirror, how are you, in your daily life supporting the economy in such a way that you are cutting your own throat by not actively supporting honest money? It really doesn’t take much to take back control, if everyone who was awake actually walked their talk. It’s just that, in my opinion humans are very good at rationalizing, and want the convenience that those in power are enslaving us with. It is my opinion that every time an awake person buys a ticket to fly, every time an awake person forsakes cash for personal checks and electronic conveniences , everytime an awake person shops in a grocery store buying food from California if they live in Vermont, every time an awake person is willing to give out personal information, every time an awake person says “ I have nothing to hide”, every time an awake person loses their temper, they are not just digging their own grave but the graves of their children and every other American family.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis
Very good comments with plenty of food for thought Mr. Davis, but please allows me to play devil’s advocate with a few of your statements/observations.

I’m interested in why you chose “honest money” as one of the “foundational supports” that we all care about as opposed to, say, peace? And what exactly do you mean by “honest money?” Is money derived from a job that enables a worker to feel no culpability or responsibility for building the weapons that are used to murder thousands of people “honest money” versus, say, taxpayer’s money given to the heads of giant banks or corporations by our “leaders” because the companies they ran into the ground are simply “too big to fail?” I’m trying to get a handle on what you would consider the corollary (i.e., “dishonest money”) and how you see them as different—and, perhaps more importantly, why you consider money so important.

I’m also interested in why you seem to feel that people wanting to immediately have an overt atmosphere of friendliness and compassion for each other is a bad thing or, at least, something that must be earned? In a world of seven billion people it is quite impossible for everyone to develop a deep and intimate relationship with one another and if that is the criteria that must be met before we can have a peaceful, meaningful and lasting friendship or relationship with one another then I think we are all doomed. We are a very aggressive and destructive species. We are taught to believe that the only way to resolve our differences is through incarceration or fighting and killing. We fight the war on crime, war on drugs, and war on terror. Even in our institutions for learning they teach us to “attack” the idea and not the person; as if this somehow softens the concept. Far be it that we should simply discuss and debate the merits of an idea. Maybe if we tried to be overtly friendly and compassionate first, the other party would reciprocate. Developing/earning a good relationship over a long period of time is no guarantee that the people with whom we put our confidence and trust in will not turn on us at some point in the future. Perhaps if we learned to be more loving, compassionate and caring up front it just might rub off on the majority and maybe then we could all truly live in peace and harmony. I think it’s pretty evident that distrusting everyone and requiring them to earn our trust and respect first before we are willing to cooperate and become friendly and caring people hasn’t worked out too well for humanity over the last few thousand years.

As for protesting and writing Congress being a waste of time, you could well be right. Although I think those things have raised awareness and gotten more people at least interested in what’s going on in this country and the world. And I’m all for starting at the grassroots/local level to help push for substantive change, but unless we start addressing the fundamental problem of people’s negative behaviors and ideologue beliefs, I doubt we’ll ever see any serious improvement in society.

And this brings us to why, on the surface, it seems so simple to solve so many of our problems like those you—and many others—have put forward about not playing their game any longer. All we need to do is stop putting our money in banks, use cash, buy locally, don’t buy gas or fly, don’t vote, don’t support any corporation that doesn’t put the people’s and the planet’s welfare first, etc. So if it’s so simple, why don’t we do it? We don’t do it precisely because of what I said in the previous paragraph. People must change their detrimental and intractable behaviors and belief systems. We all must open our minds and hearts and learn new ways of thinking and how to get along. We must question everything, yet respect other’s ideas and beliefs. We must learn how to resolve our differences not through condemnation, fighting and killing, but through dialog, understanding and cooperation--particularly where our mutual interests lie.

We have one planet with limited resources and it is in every man, woman, and child’s interest to treat the planet, its resources and all life with intelligence, respect and dignity. It is all our responsibility to do so and to ensure that those who do not are dealt with swiftly and effectively. And by that I don’t mean we must lock up or kill those who do not comply, but they do need to be removed from whatever position of power, control, or authority that enables them to continue to abuse the people, planet and/or its resources. Until we can get the majority of the population thinking in those terms, I believe we will continue to have more of the same until there are no resources, people or planet left to use and abuse.

[9eagle9]

There's only one reason why someone is given a suspension. There's lot of reasons why we 'think' someone is given a suspension but....

Consider this...If David Wilcock joined the forum over at Amazing Randi forum....David, he'd be banned in a week. Less probably. He's such an amazing and great and informed guy but our hero would be banned in a matter of days. Because this forum has a certain sort of drama and Amazing Randi's has another theme.

It goes back to the role playing. The role of the moderators are to defend the weak. Or the threatened. Their mantle as they call it. They take on the mod hat and mantle and put it on again. This not accusational its simply what I've observed them expressing for themselves. "Taking on/off the mod hat/mantle here.
'

When someone takes on a weak victim role and is threatened by a stronger presence, the stronger presence is suddenly a threat. Enter the 'bad guy'.

We see it here all the time. There's only one reason that anyone would have to be banned and this because of ...

1) The drama

2) The roles selected to play out the drama. The attached behaviors and 'feelings' that one gives to that role. The things , props, 'they' own.

3) When the selected roles have propped up or sagged in the drama someone shines the bat lamp onto the Bat Cave (moderation ) "Batman help me I'm afraid. I'm insulted. I feel threatened, that person (imposing a role) has upset me. Moderation feels compelled to preserve the weak (that's what we've been taught to do )instead of allowing them their actual strength and fortitude and self determination..or giving them space to realize what they are doing.

So...In order to keep the drama down, we prop up the drama role....lol. I'm sure moderation is exhausted by all the letters they recieve about a particular person, but its the persons sending the letters, and the complaints, and the grievances, and the missives of "I'm scared and I feel threatned and insulted." I opened a can of worms and someone went fishing with them...help me! In reality if moderation didn't recieve all those letters, they'd not have to ban anyone. Or do anything..much but do their function as a moderator. Reacting to dozens of people is..exhausting. I'm sure it's exhausting to be Dear Abby all day.

Moderation is then functioning to keep people's fingers off of their own self judgement buttons. Essentially keeping people safe from...themselves...lol.

Its much easier to get rid of the object that everyone is getting their knickers in a twist about than showing people to how to not knot up their knickers. I'm sure they have the role of savior, counselor, etc imposed on them and its tiring. But its their choice.

Not just this forum, its others. this is one is unique in the sense that we talk about abating something that needs to be fixed even as iwe are buslly creating it.....lol.

We will get of Lord Sid and the drama will be over. He's still here people are still talking about him. quoting him. He's a non physical presence that is here always. People are still dramatizing Charles. And on and on . You can't rid of the people who are banned...lol. That is the uproarious thing..you can't ever get rid of anyone...lol. No matter what moderation or members do..you can't get rid of anyone. But we keep hacking at it anyway...

4) Moderation takes off its member mantle and zooms out of the batcave and gets rid of the joker. For two days, three days, permanently. However long.

So then we have a commercial interruption.

The drama review. Everyone talking about the drama of the banned member. It was right, it was wrong, it was good, it was unfair. He/She was a dick, a bitch, a savior, a saint. Movie Critics. Let's critique the role imposed on them. This is why the banned member, the joker, is never really gone from us. He called me a nugget " but unless one really views themselve as a nugget...then there is no way to get in the nugget role....lol.

Then ...a new drama ensues and the whole thing is played again.

This is why the control drama in this forum never ends. There's established roles and roles people assume. And if anyone pops up to say "okay this is a drama , lets get to back to reality,
' off with their head. That's what we do in movie dramas, and control dramas.

And this is just another stage in life to act the drama out. Chances are we preserving our family unit from a lot of drama by creating it here. So I suppose some good comes from it all. Or perhaps we're honing it here, and enforcing it on them...yikes!

That's all. There's only reason why banning occurs. That's why it happens all the time. That's why the drama never leaves. In this forum, that forum, the other forum. Moderation for whatever reason doesn't much address the actual cause of their exhaustion, they react to it. The letters ,complaints ,and I'm scared. That's what is what is actually exhausting. They remove the object of the letters and complaints.Then the kerfluffle moves to the forum in the drama review.

It's never solved, its the just roles and dramas switch acts, the bad guys leave, the ones that have been saved still learned anything about self determination because they have someone to save them., and the moderation is basically a function of keeping people from their own button pushing. "We will get rid of the person who you use as an excuse to push your own buttons.'

I often feel sorry for moderation until I realize that at any time they have to a choice to stop getting sucked into it all. The same choice we all have.

Because I have been a moderator, where I notice the drama most (and I laff the most ) is when a member compalains that someone insulted them. And moderation comes back and says, Well I don't think so they are within acceptable boundaries. Its because the person who complained, not hearing that which would prop up their chosen, heard something during their efforts to keep the script up, that was never said. So they complain and moderation doesn't see the insulting words that were spoken so can't really do anything. It's the complaintant hearing the script in their head , the role, the drama lines, and but the person who was supposed to speak them didn't, so they complain to moderation.

Who, I now I must surmise, are functioning as acting coaches...lol. I sorta wish they'd stop doing that to themselves as it would preserve them from a whole lot of exhaustion and they could enjoy their purpose more.

So when this tragedy/ drama burples up I start laughing because its comedy tragedy. And then people are pissed at me for laughing at their comedy....lol. The only difference between this and stand up comedians is THEY like it when you you laugh at their roles.

This is truly a fascinating mechanism.


I wanted to PM Unified Serenity but it states she is on a 3day vacation. Is this a self chosen vacation or a moderator enforced one? Could someone clarify please. Thankyou

[Khaleesi]

It goes back to the role playing. The role of the moderators are to defend the weak. Or the threatened. Their mantle as they call it. They take on the mod hat and mantle and put it on again. This not accusational its simply what I've observed them expressing for themselves. "Taking on/off the mod hat/mantle here.
'


When someone takes on a weak victim role and is threatened by a stronger presence, the stronger presence is suddenly a threat. Enter the 'bad guy'.



So...In order to keep the drama down, we prop up the drama role....lol. I'm sure moderation is exhausted by all the letters they recieve about a particular person, but its the persons sending the letters, and the complaints, and the grievances, and the missives of "I'm scared and I feel threatned and insulted." I opened a can of worms and someone went fishing with them...help me!



Its much easier to get rid of the object that everyone is getting their knickers in a twist about than showing people to how to not knot up their knickers. I'm sure they have the role of savior, counselor, etc imposed on them and its tiring. But its their choice.



We will get of Lord Sid and the drama will be over. He's still here people are still talking about him. quoting him. He's a non physical presence that is here always. People are still dramatizing Charles. And on and on . You can't rid of the people who are banned...lol. That is the uproarious thing..you can't ever get rid of anyone...lol. No matter what moderation or members do..you can't get rid of anyone. But we keep hacking at it anyway...

4) Moderation takes off its member mantle and zooms out of the batcave and gets rid of the joker. For two days, three days, permanently. However long.

So then we have a commercial interruption.

The drama review. Everyone talking about the drama of the banned member. It was right, it was wrong, it was good, it was unfair. He/She was a dick, a bitch, a savior, a saint. Movie Critics. Let's critique the role imposed on them. This is why the banned member, the joker, is never really gone from us. He called me a nugget " but unless one really views themselve as a nugget...then there is no way to get in the nugget role....lol.

Then ...a new drama ensues and the whole thing is played again.

This is why the control drama in this forum never ends. There's established roles and roles people assume. And if anyone pops up to say "okay this is a drama , lets get to back to reality,
' off with their head. That's what we do in movie dramas, and control dramas.



That's all. There's only reason why banning occurs. That's why it happens all the time. That's why the drama never leaves. In this forum, that forum, the other forum. Moderation for whatever reason doesn't much address the actual cause of their exhaustion, they react to it. The letters ,complaints ,and I'm scared. That's what is what is actually exhausting. They remove the object of the letters and complaints.Then the kerfluffle moves to the forum in the drama review.

It's never solved, its the just roles and dramas switch acts, the bad guys leave, the ones that have been saved still learned anything about self determination because they have someone to save them., and the moderation is basically a function of keeping people from their own button pushing. "We will get rid of the person who you use as an excuse to push your own buttons.'



I often feel sorry for moderation until I realize that at any time they have to a choice to stop getting sucked into it all. The same choice we all have.

Because I have been a moderator, where I notice the drama most (and I laff the most ) is when a member compalains that someone insulted them. And moderation comes back and says, Well I don't think so they are within acceptable boundaries. Its because the person who complained, not hearing that which would prop up their chosen, heard something during their efforts to keep the script up, that was never said. So they complain and moderation doesn't see the insulting words that were spoken so can't really do anything. It's the complaintant hearing the script in their head , the role, the drama lines, and but the person who was supposed to speak them didn't, so they complain to moderation.

Who, I now I must surmise, are functioning as acting coaches...lol. I sorta wish they'd stop doing that to themselves as it would preserve them from a whole lot of exhaustion and they could enjoy their purpose more.

So when this tragedy/ drama burples up I start laughing because its comedy tragedy. And then people are pissed at me for laughing at their comedy....lol. The only difference between this and stand up comedians is THEY like it when you you laugh at their roles.


I hope I didn't mangle 9eagle9's post too much, but I wanted to show parts that I found particularly interesting. The whole post is great. As I was reading , I was reminded of the Stanford Prison Experiment. Please understand, I am not assigning anyone here in any particular role. Watch this video and see how the professor realized he had made an error by assuming a role in his own experiment. Upon realizing this, he shut it down.

FkmQZjZSjk4

[blake]

I haven't been party to whatever has been happening on the forum that has initiated the OP, but I think what I'd like to say is relevant: if it's not, I apologise - please ignore.

It seems this thread is (partly) about the way in which we "speak" to each other. I would be really interested to hear whether anyone has received what could be called 'abusive PMs'.

I have been told by another member that they have received abusive PMs on 3 separate occasions, from people who hold different views from them. I've read these messages, and was quite disturbed by their personal nature and nasty, aggressive tone.

The receiver has not contacted the mods, because they wished to sort the matter out themselves, and I have to respect their wishes. In 2 cases, an understanding has been reached, apologies were made and the matter resolved. The third case is still pending as the perpetrator has so far chosen not to reply.

If we want to establish a better world, we must look at our conduct, and respect for others -regardless of whether we see eye to eye about everything - must be key.

As someone said on another thread...Show You Care.

Kathie

Hello Tarka the Duck,

I have never had an abusive pm. It speaks so poorly indeed for any posters who have a need to communicate in such a debased way. I try not to get drawn in to such nasty communications. I suppose if I got a nasty pm, I would respond asking why they were so upset. If they continued to be irrational in their response, or have an unbending need to be right, I would ask them not to pm me again. If they didn’t respect my wishes, and continue with an abusive pm, I would probably start answering them though a public thread with the ideas that have been brought up in the pm without identifying the poster of course, or quoting them exactly, if I thought there was any grist for a learning experience in it. Or if I didn’t want to bother with that, I would ask assistance of the mods if their was anyway I could block their privates messages to me. And if that failed, I just would not open their pm.

In my opinion, we all get irrational time to time. When a person communicates with me in an irrational way, I usually give one try at understanding what they are so upset about. But if they continue to be abusive, I just hang up, or not respond to them and give them a deaf ear. I value my time and I choose not to give it any one who cannot demonstrate basic manners and respect.

Everyone seems to always want everyone else to be on their side. But there are so many sides. Maybe everyone is on the wrong side. Just a thought.

So sorry to hear that on Avalon there are people writing abusive pm to other posters. It is a shame if it is happening. In my opinion, if adults can’t model healthy behavior, what chance do children, and up coming generations have of having healthy relationships and learning to live respectfully with those of different backgrounds and viewpoints?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[9eagle9]

No one can't very well assign blame if eveyrone's doing it. ...still we do..

Confidence and certainty are only weapons to those who do not know that both are part of their essential nature.

[TargeT]

one Thing I've noticed is that when a system is designed to support victems, it becomes important to be a victem or twist a situation into causing the appearance of victimization.

Welfare recpients seem like a good example.

Though the forum by play illistrated by 9eagle9 is also a good example, I think I'm trying to point out that its more than just what she said though..

There is a deliberate baiting going on during the "back and forth" that people get sucked into... its almost like one side (or both?) is waiting for the "thing to be said" that the collective will view as "bad guy" actions so the victem roll can be assumed.

This seems (to me) to be the desired out come, it is highly desireable for people to seek the victem role as it infers an external savior... & via problem-reaction-solution you inject a nice selection of external saviors & what a beautiful self maintaining control structure!

the people controled have NO WHERE TO LOOK but themselfs for blame, but we've already established that self discovery is highly discouraged & (self)victimization encouraged...

It's beautifully designed when you step back and look at it.

[jorr lundstrom]

9eagle9 wrote:


thank you. Yes this whole system would bust if we just got into ourselves. Returned to ourselves. They depend on our agreements to their roles and constructs. That is what system busting is, dropping the mechanisms that we assume to keep the system in place. You know what we do to 'fix' the PTB? We change their name. TPTW. Lol. As if. so in doing so did something change? No. They're still out there running around. Lol. We attempt to change them....not ourselves. The moment you start to look inside is when they stop running the show. Becaues it is a show, a drama, a construct. They decided who we are ,the role, and in ignorance made the agreement. So then we keep the show running.



Of course we dont have to honour an agreement we didnt participate in making.

Then we have to stand in our own authority, after crossing the river of blame. LOL

[blake]

Very thoughtful. I have almost left this forum a few times, not because anyone or any idea has offended me, but because despite the intelligent and engaging, and important threads, I find myself thinking that I really don't know any of these people and will I actually get to know them?

I get the 'comedy central' darkly ironic picture - from my overactive imagination - that we're all sitting in a cubicle in the NSA posting away...not really funny, I know. Not that I am thinking of any one person - no way I could tell. But I wonder am I completely wasting my time, I could be doing something productive blah blah
blah.

Then I chide myself I am just feeling lazy or feeling like I have nothing to contribute, I am not a scientist, insider, journalist, psychic remote viewer, activist, political scientist, etc. etc. Having been over exposed to the cult/large group training social engineering industry, I admit my viewpoint bounces a round a little.

In the neck of the woods my parents came from, personal references in social and business circles came in writing and went back three generations. Moving on to a less conservative area, personal references were still considered more valuable than a background check. As in, who do you really become friends with, or of whom, a serious associate. Thus the appreciation of the points made above.

I think a little formality would save a lot of writing/reading time on this forum. As in "hey I disagree with that and here is why". It may be the best forum to spend one's time on, I have no comparison. The first two days I was on, I was royally smacked up the side of the head a couple of times by individuals who have no clue who I am. So I stopped responding to anything for a while, just staying in the awareness that I must express myself very carefully. Not that this forum cannot go on without lil ol' me.:)

I think much on here is worth reading and thinking about. Much of it is information, or about information I have been reading for over 20 years and it is refreshing to look at, with updates, in the current clime. Community is usually a good idea. Confidence and certainty are wonderful to have, but not as weapons.

Can I picture LS, Ishtar and US sitting in a shared cubicle just laughing and thigh-slapping? Yeah! I'm not saying I really think that, or likewise about other long threads with a few marathon communicators (I admire it mostly). But I'm sure you know what I mean.

So yes, I think a little formality, a little word-dancing, would benefit us all, especially those when they feel attacked, or slyly insulted (and it may be so!). It sucks, I know. But it would help create the peace and bro-sis-hood most of us seem to want. Regards all.

Hello cdnSarian

Glad you didn't leave Avalon. And thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[blake]

Hello Unified Serenity

I agree with you. Human nature is very complicated, and often is very controlled to keep us divided on what in the larger lens could be called petty issues. I think many people have a good heart. But I also have noticed how easily humans can offend others with their words, as well as how easily they are offended by other’s viewpoints. There seems to be many innocent factors that often appear to set people off in responding rudely. But I also think that a human’s greed, their angled, or limited perspective, and other factors often override their basic goodness from always shining through. The connection to goodness, I believe, is often disconnected when emotions are allowed to rule; often causing faltering logic which is necessary for good communication, as well as the progress to understanding another’s viewpoint. I believe that without clearer objectivity, and respect in communication style, the goodness of the heart is automatically turned off, often causing damage to themselves, relationships, and important events; which in turn can add to the downfall of the active support of caring about the foundational supports for all of us: liberty, freedom and honest money. So the TPTB don’t want average people to learn to communicate effectively and with respect. They want people to be loose cannons in their speaking habits, when not only is it not necessity, but it hurts us all, and helps keeps us divided and alienated; and therefore easier to control. Any time one loses their temper, they lose in life, as the old saying goes. Can you see how that might be true in many circumstances?

I have noticed that in the last few decades there has been a bigger push, perhaps in a manipulated way, for people to be less formal with each other. People seem to want to immediately have an overt atmosphere of friendliness and compassion for each other, without first building up that relationship to actually have a bona fide relationship in which one would actually care about another’s well being in a personal way. How many times might you hear people say “ relax, we are all friends here”, when in reality they are far from any standard of friendship that you and I have. In other words, they want the appearance of familiarly, and closeness before they have actually earned it. This superficial closeness, I believe, often bring down people's defenses, opening the door for abrupt disappointments, hurts, and misunderstanding; not to mention artful manipulation and various levels of theft by those of the more greedy and artful nature. I believe that a more formal approach to people casually acquainted assists in keeping one defenses up for all concerned, while keeping one’s energy where it belongs, until a true and mutual beneficial relationship has been earned by all involved. When someone truly knows you, they often will not get put off by some differing viewpoint of yours, and will be more understanding and forgiving of your human moods and expressions. Plus, when you allow people to become close to you, you are convinced by some personal standard that they are not going to take advantage or try to undermine you, allowing you to feel more relaxed in letting your guard down a bit while thinking out loud. Where as someone who is “superficially friendly” can become quite suddenly very unfriendly, totally closed to any effort of understanding, when hearing of some view of yours, or something that you may, or may not believe. People like labels. Understanding another who has a different viewpoint takes energy few people want to give someone who they are not emotionally invested in. So people love to label other people, wrongly or rightly, on what they interpret another to say. And with labels come assumptions, and often prejudices that at the very least will narrow the lines of communications, if not totally close them. And when that happens it often opens the gates of rudeness or worse, closing down the heart light, which can immediately make an enemy in two seconds flat. How sad, but how often I have seen it play out that way.

I believe humans need to develop more discernment about the reality of personal motivations and interactions between people of casual acquaintances, and learn the benefits of formal and, courteous communications to all .

Someone recently said in a post that in debate class they teach you to attack the idea, not the person if you wish to have a meaningful debate. I think a person who attacks the person, instead of questioning their ideas; don’t have a solid grasp of their own ideas. They therefore react emotionally instead of using their intellect and logic to think the ideas through. I do believe that personally when one loses their temper, they lose in life. Emotion may set you on fire, but your head must rule the action you take, and the words that you choose if you want to improve conditions, and not deteriorate them.


But to address the other issue that you seem to be responding too, as far as what I think Americans need to be doing to level the playing field between the PTB and the rest of us is pretty simple, don’t patronize the services that they use to control us with.

I understand most people do not like this answer because it makes them responsible for their own behavior in contributing to the mess we are living in, in my opinion. And many rationalize that just because they know what is wrong, and they consider themselves awake, and because they might support Ron Paul, and go to protest marches and write Congress, they rationalize they are making a difference; when in reality, in my opinion, they appear to be doing exactly the same thing as those who are not awake are doing. They feed the systems that are enslaving them.

Spending ones limited resources and time on protesting marches and writing congress to me is busy work that those in power love to see us waste our time and resources on in the big picture . I believe in local control and local power. I believe in not patronizing that which is not in the best interest of liberty and honest money. I try to only buy American. It is very challenging. And I know for every time I buy American, there are millions of others not buying American because it’s cheaper and more convenient not to do so. But because the majority of people are going to rationalize their actions, that is not going to change how I live my life. I don’t follow the sheep mentality who rationalizes why they don’t mostly by local, and don’t buy American. In my opinion, those people who have used their money that way are economic terrorist to the local economy in which the live. They are cutting their own throats for convenience and with a very skewed viewpoint that in the end they are actually saving money. To me, those people who do not buy mostly local and American fall under the saying, penny wise and pound foolish, while sustaining the beast who controls the systems that they force us to support. America has become the company store. So I like to ask people, who are complaining about the economy, over the last decade or two, where they have been spending their money.


If one complains about Monsanto, and still doing the majority of their shopping in supermarkets, are they not are cutting their own throats and that of their families?

If people truly understand how banking works in the creation of money out of “thin air”, then why do they still write personal checks, make deposits, use credit cards, do electronic banking, etc etc? Obviously, if you have daily and weekly interaction with the bank, on any level, you are helping destroy your wealth and that of your neighbors, let alone the entire country. Yet, out of convenience, people, will complain, but will not stop feeding the monster who is choking them to death. Why is that?

If people didn’t stop using cash, the banks would have had a more difficult time boiling you all in that frog pot into a cashless society that we essentially have today, that soon will be more in your face.

If people don’t like the TSA, why do they continue to fly as often as they did before? How many have spent any time brainstorming other ways of travelling or other alternatives?

Private jets are nice for the rich to charter, and it is not likely that the rich will offer too many lifts in their private jets for the average person to get to their son’s wedding across the country, or to an important medical conference one may be speaking at. But if many people just stopped flying for a while, I do believe the airlines would demand a big change there. Not for freedom, or for the people, or for what is right, but for their own pocketbook. Yet the average person will not cut down on their travel, or using banks, or shopping at supermarkets, or buying food grown thousand of miles from where they live. Too many, even awake, people will not brainstorm how to make alternatives work for them. It is just too convenient to keep the status quo, to go along to get along, and to shop the company store. The average person will not support the local farmer or the local economy. The average person will complain about TSA but will continue to be where TSA is.

I’ll ask again, and I know it is hard; and I know it is inconvenient. But look in the mirror, how are you, in your daily life supporting the economy in such a way that you are cutting your own throat by not actively supporting honest money? It really doesn’t take much to take back control, if everyone who was awake actually walked their talk. It’s just that, in my opinion humans are very good at rationalizing, and want the convenience that those in power are enslaving us with. It is my opinion that every time an awake person buys a ticket to fly, every time an awake person forsakes cash for personal checks and electronic conveniences , everytime an awake person shops in a grocery store buying food from California if they live in Vermont, every time an awake person is willing to give out personal information, every time an awake person says “ I have nothing to hide”, every time an awake person loses their temper, they are not just digging their own grave but the graves of their children and every other American family.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis
Very good comments with plenty of food for thought Mr. Davis, but please allows me to play devil’s advocate with a few of your statements/observations.

I’m interested in why you chose “honest money” as one of the “foundational supports” that we all care about as opposed to, say, peace? And what exactly do you mean by “honest money?” Is money derived from a job that enables a worker to feel no culpability or responsibility for building the weapons that are used to murder thousands of people “honest money” versus, say, taxpayer’s money given to the heads of giant banks or corporations by our “leaders” because the companies they ran into the ground are simply “too big to fail?” I’m trying to get a handle on what you would consider the corollary (i.e., “dishonest money”) and how you see them as different—and, perhaps more importantly, why you consider money so important.

I’m also interested in why you seem to feel that people wanting to immediately have an overt atmosphere of friendliness and compassion for each other is a bad thing or, at least, something that must be earned? In a world of seven billion people it is quite impossible for everyone to develop a deep and intimate relationship with one another and if that is the criteria that must be met before we can have a peaceful, meaningful and lasting friendship or relationship with one another then I think we are all doomed. We are a very aggressive and destructive species. We are taught to believe that the only way to resolve our differences is through incarceration or fighting and killing. We fight the war on crime, war on drugs, and war on terror. Even in our institutions for learning they teach us to “attack” the idea and not the person; as if this somehow softens the concept. Far be it that we should simply discuss and debate the merits of an idea. Maybe if we tried to be overtly friendly and compassionate first, the other party would reciprocate. Developing/earning a good relationship over a long period of time is no guarantee that the people with whom we put our confidence and trust in will not turn on us at some point in the future. Perhaps if we learned to be more loving, compassionate and caring up front it just might rub off on the majority and maybe then we could all truly live in peace and harmony. I think it’s pretty evident that distrusting everyone and requiring them to earn our trust and respect first before we are willing to cooperate and become friendly and caring people hasn’t worked out too well for humanity over the last few thousand years.

As for protesting and writing Congress being a waste of time, you could well be right. Although I think those things have raised awareness and gotten more people at least interested in what’s going on in this country and the world. And I’m all for starting at the grassroots/local level to help push for substantive change, but unless we start addressing the fundamental problem of people’s negative behaviors and ideologue beliefs, I doubt we’ll ever see any serious improvement in society.

And this brings us to why, on the surface, it seems so simple to solve so many of our problems like those you—and many others—have put forward about not playing their game any longer. All we need to do is stop putting our money in banks, use cash, buy locally, don’t buy gas or fly, don’t vote, don’t support any corporation that doesn’t put the people’s and the planet’s welfare first, etc. So if it’s so simple, why don’t we do it? We don’t do it precisely because of what I said in the previous paragraph. People must change their detrimental and intractable behaviors and belief systems. We all must open our minds and hearts and learn new ways of thinking and how to get along. We must question everything, yet respect other’s ideas and beliefs. We must learn how to resolve our differences not through condemnation, fighting and killing, but through dialog, understanding and cooperation--particularly where our mutual interests lie.

We have one planet with limited resources and it is in every man, woman, and child’s interest to treat the planet, its resources and all life with intelligence, respect and dignity. It is all our responsibility to do so and to ensure that those who do not are dealt with swiftly and effectively. And by that I don’t mean we must lock up or kill those who do not comply, but they do need to be removed from whatever position of power, control, or authority that enables them to continue to abuse the people, planet and/or its resources. Until we can get the majority of the population thinking in those terms, I believe we will continue to have more of the same until there are no resources, people or planet left to use and abuse.

Hello ceetee9,

Thanks for posting. Since this last post has so many questions, I started to answer some of your questions in a new thread called: " in response to ceetee9". I hope you can find it.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis