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Tony
14th January 2012, 17:31
The Individual.



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Spiritual practice is done by the individual.
No one can do it for us - not even enlightened beings.
So individual endeavour is utmost importance. You are responsible for your own evolution (or not....!)

However if we make a big deal of being individuals, it can create problems for ourselves and others around us, which is precisely what has been happening - for an infinite amount of time.
Being well-defined individuals can actually divide people.
We then place ourselves into groups.
Deciding to be outside a group is also a group.
And so we conform...

“My group is better than yours!” - class is then created.
“But I am classless!” - no, you have merely joined another group...sorry!

See how we defend ourselves?
Then along comes subtle aggression.
If we follow dislike to its conclusion, it will end up in hatred.

If we have a strong idea about self with which we identify, then we are not in control - the idea itself is in control.
This is how the mind can be infiltrated.
“Go forth and do your thing...you are a self-made man/woman!”
“I use Dabasmell...'cos I'm worth it!”

This process of clinging to an idea is called ego.
It is consciousness clinging.
This is self made prison. If there is ego clinging, then there is a sense of “I”.

In the west/modern world, we have been encouraged to have a very big sense of “I”.
We are very intense and speedy, very alert and conscious...and this causes many emotions to arise. When we hear or read something, we invariably relate it to 'me', and forget that others are also in the big picture.

In the old world, people have less of a big I...it is more of a “mere I”.
When we see a sea of people from the east...there is less of a huge sense of the individual. It is there, but not the same. One sees this clearly in the difference between western and eastern spiritual students: easterners are just there, whereas we westerns are “there”! We tend to overdo our spirituality...

In the west, we are getting to the stage of killing the teachers...which was a prophecy written thousands of years ago in the Mahabarata. “My will be done...kill the teachings.”

We should be careful: we have to be responsible.
Not too tight, not too loose.
Thus we can know the difference between the individual and the indivisible! LOL



This leads on to the next video...the individual in a system.(To follow)

The individual in a system.

Even though we are individuals, and the work of our path is self-clearing, working with provable guide lines can help as a support (although, of course, we should avoid being dogmatic).

An individual's path, is of course for the individual: we each have a uniqueness due to our mindset...our set mind!

A system is for everyone, from total beginners to advanced students. It has to suit all capacities and temperaments. If one path does not suit, then we simply find another - one where we may have a karmic connection.
Being in a system does not mean we lose our individual being...or leave our brains outside the door, lying on the pavement wondering what on earth is going on.

For some, they may have the karmic fortune to not need any instruction. They may even be fortunate enough to have their own quirky approach which works!
Generally, though, we need some sort of instruction when engaging in an activity, whether it be sport, music, art, electronics plumbing, gardening... We could take the “suck it and see” approach, which takes time - or we can move along a little faster, and be warned of the pitfalls by those who have trodden the path ahead of us.

A serious student of life will always be willing to learn – from many sources.

If we are interested in a subject, we will have a feeling for it.
The teacher is merely there to show you what you already know: they often just clarify and open the subject up.
The outer teacher reveals the inner teacher!

You do know...but you don't notice you know, because your attention has been misdirected.



Consciousnesses...?...and beyond!

This is from a Tibetan Buddhist viewpoint.

We generally think of consciousness as one 'thing'.
We are conscious, and that's it.
However, consciousness can be broken up into many components.
Let's try eight. After all, the brain is divided into areas, so why not consciousness, the mind?

It's quite simple, but takes a little practice to notice it in action.

The first five consciousnesses are the senses: touch, smell, taste, hearing and sight. These are non- conceptual. This is where we receive most of the information from the outside world...generally.

The sixth consciousness is perception.

The seventh consciousness is judgement.

The eighth consciousness is the 'storehouse' or library of experiences, memories and karma.
This consciousness can be thought of as the hard drive, with software in it. This hard drive is referred to as the 'all-ground' in Tibetan Buddhism, and is an important area.

In our normal life, the sixth consciousness – perception - views the world through the five senses.
Now this goes to the seventh, but quickly goes unnoticed to the eighth, where perception looks for a memory to understand what the sixth consciousness has seen (it does this because perception is unaware of its true essence, and is therefore searching for an answer). Perception then returns to the seventh consciousness to see if it likes or dislikes what has been recalled.

If no break enters this patterning, we just go round in circles in a habitual pattern or personality.
We fixate on ideas, we fix our conclusions and we fix ourselves in a prison.
And...the outer world plays on and exploits this behaviour...
We are NOT free! We are caught in a cycle of concepts - which we learn at an EARLY AGE!

So how do we break out?

In meditation, thoughts and the clinging to thoughts gradually die down.
In this way, a space is created in the mind...a gap!

Now, when perception (the sixth consciousness) sees something, because of the space created through meditation, we have a chance to look into what is perceived and that which perceives it.
At that moment NO karma is created.
(our reactions are due to karma = past experiences).

So we can now respond (or not) in a different way, if this is what we choose.
We are no longer controlled by outside forces...good aaaaaaah!

Now we come to a very subtle process (forgive me, but as my own understanding develops, so will this description).

Because of this inner space created by meditating in the sixth consciousness, this perception expands to the seventh and eighth.
A state of non-thought can arise (which is the 'raw' hard drive in the eighth consciousness revealing itself), as thoughts have subsided.
We are now dwelling in space...in the now.
This is a high state - one could call it higher consciousness, or mistake it for higher self. However, it is still in the realm of relative truth. It still has duality about it...'me' in 'now'!

The trick is to merely look into that which is aware of now...and rest naturally.

Nothing can be found!
That is Empty Essence.
That is absolute truth.
The Emptiness of Emptiness is pure.
Once that is realised, it can radiantly express itself with joy! Good aaaah!

Resting in ultimate truth is not enough – then bless all with compassion.
This is how the two truths work nicely together.


Two confessions.

First confession - I am about to teach...!
When resting in Empty Consciousness, whatever arises in the mind is seen as if Empty Consciousness was a clear mirror, and all appearances are merely reflected.
Therefore, appearances and Empty Cognisance are inseparable.
At this stage, do not try to see if ego is present or not.
Merely rest naturally without modification - all clinging will naturally release.

Second confession - I do not like Dharma centres...!
I love going to teachings - any teachings - to see how they relate to experience. I am truly grateful to anyone revealing teachings, and trying to explain them.

However my biggest personal teaching is...other students. They get right up my nose, and into my brain and stomp around, smug and full of elitist jargon! That is my greatest teacher.

When going to spiritual centres, remember not leave your brains at the front door!



(Two more videos to follow)

firstlook
14th January 2012, 17:55
Very deep thoughts. Much appreciated.

I find the idea of acceptance to be the most important lesson I am learning in this go around. Accepting people for their ideas and understanding that even the "bad choices" whether against ones self or another is always for a "good reason". This isn't so much a philosophy as it is a practice of forgiveness, which really elevates my confidence in just being and hoping that is good enough and will help improve the general atmosphere of this planet both physically and spiritually.


A serious student of life will always be willing to learn – from many sources.

:)

nf857
14th January 2012, 19:03
Enlightment, do even the most enlightened human beings known on earth ever get beyond the material level of existence?

Astral projection/OBE's- you soul going for a walk or a jog into the astral plane-which is another dimension.

All this talk about different dimensions/higher your vibrational frequency's/dousing/meditating, do we really think this makes us enlightened beings as apposed to the piano teacher whos mind gets swept along with her music? x

nf857
14th January 2012, 19:06
''I find the idea of acceptance to be the most important lesson I am learning in this go around. Accepting people for their ideas and understanding that even the "bad choices" whether against ones self or another is always for a "good reason". This isn't so much a philosophy as it is a practice of forgiveness, which really elevates my confidence in just being and hoping that is good enough and will help improve the general atmosphere of this planet both physically and spiritually''

Me too, one of the great many teachings, however i find that its not the human condition in its nature for very long. Love the ''a serious student of life will always be willing to learn from many sources'' this is great basically you never listen to just one teaching or view or opnion, but lots & then you hold whats true for yourself & that way you make it your own x

markpierre
14th January 2012, 19:35
Not trying to plant ideas Tony, but I'd love to have encounters like that with you again. The 'you' you brought to that was the message as far as I'm concerned.

(Looking for a production manager?)

I like the idea of the individual as a conformist. It seems the only real 'individuals' I meet are those that have somehow relocated themselves and their place within the hive. Individual cells in the body
are meaningless because we've isolated them from their function. An 'individualized' cell we'd call a cancer. But a bee can be an individual, and maybe only ever express it in something like a decision to
sacrifice itself to protect the whole. So that the whole can continue to distribute the pollen and produce the honey and feed the colony and the real nature of reality continues with the help of that individual contribution.

Strangely that symbiotic view of human consciousness is acceptable, but the experience is rejected. It's too much like the Borg. I don't want to be controlled by a true purpose. I don't want my identity defined by my function.
Yet we become plumbers and teachers and musicians and carnival ride operators and very much define ourselves that way. We just can't help ourselves because we can't stand to be without purpose.

Spiritual seeker? No, I don't want that one. That's just another cancer. A worker ant seeking out his function.

If I know what I am, I know what my day is on about, and there will be no arguments or confrontations. Everyone agrees that the pollen is the purpose. The honey is the purpose.

Just a bit of early morning drifting. Your vid was my first contact with the day. What a lovely way to start it.

A great pleasure to meet you 'face to face'.

minkton
14th January 2012, 19:46
pie 'n' eal, can I ask you a question which may seem pretty off the wall?! I'd be very interested in your response, if you feel you could or would want to answer it. It's something I've been thinking about re 'group' and 'individual'...individual in system..

ok this is my question..


If you were a woman, and /or also not a woman, I guess... how would you feel about being in/having a harem, or a mormon sister wife?

It seems to be those situations present a different type of ontological/spiritual challenge than we - certainly I- am used to.

I'm thinking of 'group feminine' being created in those situations.

hmm.. am I off topic? If so, apologies!

Ineffable Hitchhiker
14th January 2012, 19:49
A serious student of life will always be willing to learn – from many sources.

If we are interested in a subject, we will have a feeling for it.
The teacher is merely there to show you what you already know: they often just clarify and open the subject up.
The outer teacher reveals the inner teacher!

You do know...but you don't notice you know, because your attention has been misdirected.


Does one ever stop learning?
I think until our final breath, in this body suit, we´re all still "students."
Since you say everyone follows their own path by being interested in a subject, it means that they haven´t studied/followed the other subjects. ie. something to learn.
You will have learnt only ONE path.
Obviously we cannot and will not learn and know, intensely, what other paths are, but as the saying goes...."the journeys are all different yet the destination the same". :)
I, for one, am grateful for the plumber, the carpenter and the musician.

I guess, as you say ...we need to let go of "ego clinging" and respect each other, no matter which path is chosen. :yes4:

I agree with you that meditation is one of the better vehicles in creating an inner space, an inner awareness and a letting go.
And yet, so is this wonderful medium. Right here, right now.
Here we get to share ideas, have our buttons pushed and this interaction is also all part of it. http://i34.tinypic.com/2yl1nba.jpg







However my biggest personal teaching is...other students. They get right up my nose, and into my brain and stomp around, smug and full of elitist jargon! That is my greatest teacher.



:wave:

:becky:


Great video! Thank you.
Looking forward to more.

Ineffable Hitchhiker
14th January 2012, 19:57
Enlightment, do even the most enlightened human beings known on earth ever get beyond the material level of existence?

Astral projection/OBE's- you soul going for a walk or a jog into the astral plane-which is another dimension.

All this talk about different dimensions/higher your vibrational frequency's/dousing/meditating, do we really think this makes us enlightened beings as apposed to the piano teacher whos mind gets swept along with her music? x

Nope.
The piano teacher is no different to you and me. We are all human beings.
Each of us on our own "journey", carrying different suitcases, containing different "stuff".
The idea is... to make the journey lighter....get rid of the excess baggage. :becky:

Tony
14th January 2012, 20:08
pie 'n' eal, can I ask you a question which may seem pretty off the wall?! I'd be very interested in your response, if you feel you could or would want to answer it. It's something I've been thinking about re 'group' and 'individual'...individual in system..

ok this is my question..


If you were a woman, and /or also not a woman, I guess... how would you feel about being in/having a harem, or a mormon sister wife?

It seems to be those situations present a different type of ontological/spiritual challenge than we - certainly I- am used to.

I'm thinking of 'group feminine' being created in those situations.

hmm.. am I off topic? If so, apologies!

Dear minkton

I don't really feel in a position to answer...:o However, my first response was, in regard to the idea of a harem or wife sister group feminine, that there doesn't need to be a male at the centre...!

In Tibet, I know of groups of nuns who live very in isolated communities, and work beautifully together, supporting each other in everything from undertaking 3 year retreats to building a new toilet block. They spend most of their time together meditating - and giggling while they work.

Maybe what is needed is the recognition of a common cause or need for which to work together. It helps when we have an empathetic understanding of the masculine and feminine within ourselves - without extremes of either of these two aspects. Extremes create too much excitement between the toes...;)

Here is a clip of a film about the nuns of Nangchen, called "Blessings".

Tony

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nf857
14th January 2012, 20:24
"Nope.
The piano teacher is no different to you and me. We are all human beings.
Each of us on our own "journey", carrying different suitcases, containing different "stuff".
The idea is... to make the journey lighter....get rid of the excess baggage"

So in order to become enlightened we have to become something more than human? So as far as we know the most enlightened human beings on earth never reached that state either? Whats the point? Thats all im asking? I think philosophical debate presents some of the most interesting theories as they provide the most answers, however not all. Why would i want to get rid of my baggage? Is is a part of who i am on this journey?

Further to that i would add baggage is just someting all humans have,its part of the evidence of the life you have lived upto now, its a part of being human, what are you trying to attain by not being this? Also when something emotional or trauma bases happends to you, later in the future you can be reminded of this event by a trigger, its called pattern matching, otherwise would you not forget who you are? x

Ernie Nemeth
14th January 2012, 20:33
Tony, loved your vid.

Words of wisdom, as always. Much to ponder.

Like Morpheus said to Neo: "There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."

Tony
14th January 2012, 20:40
"Nope.
The piano teacher is no different to you and me. We are all human beings.
Each of us on our own "journey", carrying different suitcases, containing different "stuff".
The idea is... to make the journey lighter....get rid of the excess baggage"

So in order to become enlightened we have to become something more than human? So as far as we know the most enlightened human beings on earth never reached that state either? Whats the point? Thats all im asking? I think philosophical debate presents some of the most interesting theories as they provide the most answers, however not all. Why would i want to get rid of my baggage? Is is a part of who i am on this journey?

Further to that i would add baggage is just someting all humans have,its part of the evidence of the life you have lived upto now, its a part of being human, what are you trying to attain by not being this? Also when something emotional or trauma bases happends to you, later in the future you can be reminded of this event by a trigger, its called pattern matching, otherwise would you not forget who you are? x


Good questions - I appreciate your comments.

It's not the baggage itself that's the problem - it is the attachment to the baggage that slows you down.
The reason people set out on a spiritual journey is that people recognise that they are suffering, and they wish to find the cause of that suffering.
That is when they tread the path.

Everyone is carrying luggage that is weighing them down - but they don't notice it.

Tony

Ineffable Hitchhiker
14th January 2012, 20:49
So in order to become enlightened we have to become something more than human? So as far as we know the most enlightened human beings on earth never reached that state either? Whats the point? Thats all im asking? I think philosophical debate presents some of the most interesting theories as they provide the most answers, however not all. Why would i want to get rid of my baggage? Is is a part of who i am on this journey? x



What´s the point in anything, really?


Enlightenment is just a concept.
We are all "enlightened" but have just forgotten. Our minds are filled with... ideas.
Lots of "noise".
If we empty or quieten the noise, there is a slight chance you can "hear" things you have never heard before, instead of hearing the same old stuck record again.


Using the piano teacher, as an analogy, I will attempt to explain how I understand it.

The piano teacher doesn´t ONLY play one tune. She plays many. If she wants to master the skill of being a piano teacher, she needs to learn all kinds of different pieces.
When she is playing, she will probably not be concentrating on world politics or whether tomatoes are cheaper at the other store, she will be absolutely in the moment. In meditation.
She will be an "enlightened" piano teacher. Right there!

So the idea is to stop thinking about politics and tomatoes and find out who you really are.
She is a piano teacher.
And you?
Who are you? :)

markpierre
14th January 2012, 21:37
"Nope.
The piano teacher is no different to you and me. We are all human beings.
Each of us on our own "journey", carrying different suitcases, containing different "stuff".
The idea is... to make the journey lighter....get rid of the excess baggage"

So in order to become enlightened we have to become something more than human? So as far as we know the most enlightened human beings on earth never reached that state either? Whats the point? Thats all im asking? I think philosophical debate presents some of the most interesting theories as they provide the most answers, however not all. Why would i want to get rid of my baggage? Is is a part of who i am on this journey?

Further to that i would add baggage is just someting all humans have,its part of the evidence of the life you have lived upto now, its a part of being human, what are you trying to attain by not being this? Also when something emotional or trauma bases happends to you, later in the future you can be reminded of this event by a trigger, its called pattern matching, otherwise would you not forget who you are? x

Not all humans are attached to baggage. Isn't that the criteria for 'having' baggage?

I have a big bag of nothing, and I'm determined to keep it because it's mine. It's not. It's accumulated and defined by the collective. It hobbles us because we accept it.

Relinquishing it might look like a process, but its really the effect of realizing its nothingness. The outcome will be to drop the bags eventually, however you want to go about it. Do it now? Just drop them? Why not?
And there begins a long convoluted discussion about why not that skillfully circumvents 'how to'. Then we'll discuss 'how to' for a few more eons.

In order to be 'enlightened', we allow ourselves to become something more inclusive than human as defined by humans. We only allow it because it's happening with or without our agreement or acknowledgement.
'I'm only human' is like the exemption clause from responsibility.

No your not. You're much much more than that.

Enlightenment is the discovery and allowance of everything that it's possible to be aware of. 'Enlightened' doesn't exclude space and time and the travails of maneuvering a body through them, they don't disappear because they're your creations.
Enlightened just doesn't define itself by those limitations.

'I'm human' is an active denial of the rest of totality. Define 'human' as unlimited consciousness and potential, and you can get away with it. That'll help you be more aware of just what it is you think you're doing here.

minkton
15th January 2012, 01:33
pie 'n' eal, can I ask you a question which may seem pretty off the wall?! I'd be very interested in your response, if you feel you could or would want to answer it. It's something I've been thinking about re 'group' and 'individual'...individual in system..

ok this is my question..


If you were a woman, and /or also not a woman, I guess... how would you feel about being in/having a harem, or a mormon sister wife?

It seems to be those situations present a different type of ontological/spiritual challenge than we - certainly I- am used to.

I'm thinking of 'group feminine' being created in those situations.

hmm.. am I off topic? If so, apologies!

Dear minkton

I don't really feel in a position to answer...:o However, my first response was, in regard to the idea of a harem or wife sister group feminine, that there doesn't need to be a male at the centre...!

In Tibet, I know of groups of nuns who live very in isolated communities, and work beautifully together, supporting each other in everything from undertaking 3 year retreats to building a new toilet block. They spend most of their time together meditating - and giggling while they work.

Maybe what is needed is the recognition of a common cause or need for which to work together. It helps when we have an empathetic understanding of the masculine and feminine within ourselves - without extremes of either of these two aspects. Extremes create too much excitement between the toes...;)

Here is a clip of a film about the nuns of Nangchen, called "Blessings".

Tony

eqimgbbjrg4

Yes, that's a great answer. One very energetically different component however is the YANG at the centre, which shifts the entire dynamic!

We've all, i think, been in a room which was single gender and felt the shift as soon as the other gender walks in!

But, yes, your answer is a lovely one about group and community, without the complication of sexual love, romantic love, and yin/yang dynamics.

thanks pie. you are a gem.
xxx

nf857
15th January 2012, 02:18
Using the piano teacher, as an analogy, I will attempt to explain how I understand it.


The piano teacher doesn´t ONLY play one tune. She plays many. If she wants to master the skill of being a piano teacher, she needs to learn all kinds of different pieces.
When she is playing, she will probably not be concentrating on world politics or whether tomatoes are cheaper at the other store, she will be absolutely in the moment. In meditation.
She will be an "enlightened" piano teacher. Right there!

So the idea is to stop thinking about politics and tomatoes and find out who you really are.
She is a piano teacher.

This is exactly why i used the piano teacher as my analogy for comparison, she is no different to a tibetamon monk sat on a cliff meditating, as they are both in their 'Oneness' My point is no matter which way you view philosphical debate, or what teaching you go by, it does not give this so called enlightment, which is what it purports to do. Your whole life can change certainly
with these world views yes, it does not change the fact that 'you' are still 'you' in this material plain of existence.


Not all humans are attached to baggage. Isn't that the criteria for 'having' baggage? -

I beleive they do have baggage of some form to exist, even if i held no material posessions other than the materials on my back, i still need to eat, drink, sleep, so that is baggage in itself, not to add the fact that if i was a monk or a nun or priest, my baggage would be thay i have to stick to a routine everyday to reach this so called level of enlightment, if i didnt have this baggage of routine, i could stop having to meditate everyday, or taken a vow of silence away from mind chatter etc etc, i think you get my meanings


It's not the baggage itself that's the problem - it is the attachment to the baggage that slows you down.
The reason people set out on a spiritual journey is that people recognise that they are suffering, and they wish to find the cause of that suffering.
That is when they tread the path.

Everyone is carrying luggage that is weighing them down - but they don't notice it.

This totally diminshes life, for all its wonderful flaws, experiences, negative emotion/good emotion, bad things that happen, good things that happen. I think you are viewing baggage as just one thing here, baggage is not just negative, its positive as well, i.e. i remember when i was 5 & i had my first donkey ride, everytime i go to a seaside i remember how far the sea seemed then in my perspective to how i see it now. Thats is one of the memories in my bag that i love to carry around with me. Sure spirituality helps people to make sense of the why/how things happen to them individually, but you can't change the past, well you can, but well you know what i mean, however your future is what you make it. When you realise certain forms manifest again & you pattern match it helps to understand how this works, so you maybe dont get angry or as angry or upset but not as upset, however if something is a happy memory in your baggage, you would only want to feel as happy or more from this memory x

Tarka the Duck
15th January 2012, 20:51
@ nf857



I beleive they do have baggage of some form to exist, even if i held no material posessions other than the materials on my back, i still need to eat, drink, sleep, so that is baggage in itself, not to add the fact that if i was a monk or a nun or priest, my baggage would be thay i have to stick to a routine everyday to reach this so called level of enlightment, if i didnt have this baggage of routine, i could stop having to meditate everyday, or taken a vow of silence away from mind chatter etc etc, i think you get my meanings

I think that Pie'n'eal's reply (no 12) would clarify that point for you if you re-read it. To repeat what he said, it is not the baggage itself that causes problems - it is the attachment to the baggage that causes suffering.

In Buddhism, there is a path known as the Middle Way - neither attachment or detachment. Each of these are extremes.
Non-attachment is the middle way.
Non attachment is a matter of changing your mindset so that your thoughts no longer dictate your emotional state. Doesn't that sound attractive??!;)

With regard to the needs of the body that you refer to, of course we have to eat, drink etc...but it is possible to do these things - and enjoy them fully - without attachment.

"Detachment implies a sense of withdrawal. Non-attachment simply implies not holding on." Joseph Goldstein.

"Don't be attached to the things of the world, and don't be attached to the things of the other world, because things are things. It makes no difference whether they are of this world or the other world -- attachment is the problem." - Osho

This is according to the Buddhist teachings.
They may or may not be attractive to you...that's up to you!

Kathie

Jenci
15th January 2012, 23:05
"We know that the train carries all loads, so after getting on it why should we carry our small luggage on our head to our discomfort, instead of putting it down in the train and feeling at ease?"

Ramana Maharshi