Exhausting good karma.

[Tony]

Exhausting good karma.

Karma is a word used to describe the results of causes and effect created by our reactions and intentions. It is stored in the eighth consciousness of the mind: it's the software. Because we hold onto ideas about ourselves, we constantly add or maintain this self image. Therefore we go round in circles, and the same things keep happening to us...in our world!

So whatever occurs in the present moment - physical or mental - is a product of the past. It was karmically created.
If we 're-act', we keep the whole process going.
If we do not 're-act', no karma is created.

So, we have pure intent and impure intent. Which produces good karma and bad karma. This is created because of the way we view things. So, fortunate things can appear, or unfortunate things can appear...in our world!

The object of spiritual practice is to realise one's true nature, and exhaust all karmic effects!
Of course we all want to get rid of bad karma, as we want nice things to happen to us.

OK, here is the dilemma.
We also have to exhaust good karma, i.e. all karma, so that the entire system collapses, and all that is left is empty essence, cognisant nature and unconfined compassion.

Here is the problem, and this is why, when investigating, we need a well tried system to remind us.
If we are fortunate enough to have good karma...(which is nice), we may tend to sit back and enjoy it, or take it for granted, while thinking “I am such a smart, gifted, good person. I am better than them.”

We will tend to want to hold onto this good feeling ...about ourselves...and our world!
Oh dear, we hadn't noticed the generation of bad karma, because of this attachment or clinging to this righteous self image!
This is so easily done. This is why we have to be constantly alert, aware and mindful.

This is also why compassion - putting others before self - is so important.

In spiritual practice we need:
Intense intelligence
Intense compassion
Intense emotions

Be wise.


All the best,
Tony

[Anchor]

I would like to paint a, hopefully complementary, perspective to karma.

Any thought which we create (or any creation we think), any act we do, word we speak - anything that follows from the impetus given by our creative mind, starts a motion in the fabric of the universe with something like inertia - and it is that inertia which I think is directly referred to in the concept of karma.

And as a snowball running down the hill gets larger, the cascade of cause and effect can often be such that the consequences can take on a "life" of their own - especially if we unwittingly persist in rolling that snowball.

Even if the ball escapes us and continues its own merry way, we remain responsible for all that we create.

This inertia can be neutralized.

Forgiveness of the self and the otherselves is the key to that, a subject that has done the rounds on this forum a few times.

Oh - and stop rolling the ball :)

[meeradas]

Edited to nothingness.

[Anchor]

Whos's the Doer?

Is that for me or pie'n'eal?

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Edited to nothingness.

Your message has ascended :)

[meeradas]

Whos's the Doer?

Is that for me or pie'n'eal?

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Edited to nothingness.

Your message has ascended :)

Isn't that amazing? :biggrin1:

Was for everyone... but decided against it. Too late, obviously...

[Anchor]

In deciding who is the do'er I find myself with three possibilities for identifying the perpetrator :)

a) That which I am

b) That which I am not

c) Of the infinite set of all, which encompasses both A and B.

Those lucky people that find this easy, may have concluded that A is created in the image of B, so they are in a way the same; so 'C' may be choice.

Those people identifying with the self, will choose A

Those people recognizing B as a mirror of A are free to choose A or B ;)

What do you choose?

[greybeard]

Two prayers to negate all karma.

Morning prayer

"Beloved
I am born now from the womb of sleep
I am determined to dedicate all acts this day as offerings to Thee with Thee ever present before my minds eye.
Make my words thoughts and deeds sacred and pure
Let me injure no one, let no one injure me
Guide me direct me this day."


Evening Prayer

"Beloved
The acts of this day, who's burdens I place upon you this morning are now over
It was You who made me walk, talk, think and act.
I therefore place at Thy feet all my words thoughts and deeds.
Receive me now
I am coming home to Thee"

Keep in mind that the Beloved is your Higher Self
You are praying to "That" which you are.

A way of being emerges where there is neither attraction or aversion and life with all its ups and downs is enjoyed to the full.

There is the realization that there are no personal events and life happens for you not to you.
You are the totality all of it --- there is no individual self.
The illusion is a belief in the individual self.
Ramesh Balsekar (Advaita Sage) said. The biggest obstacle to enlightenment is the thought that you are the doer.
The ego cant stand that and lays claim to being the author of your life.

I am still trying to come to terms with the concept that I have no free will.
I can accept that the God's will flows through the sages but I query that everything I do is the will of God.

With me its still work in progress.

Chris

[minkton]

Lovely post pie eal, thankyou. Just what I needed to be reminded of, in fact. I was resting on some laurels without noticing what I was doing...

Want to ask you... can you say more about the benefit of 'intense emotions' in this process? I 'd be grateful.

[Tony]

Lovely post pie eal, thankyou. Just what I needed to be reminded of, in fact. I was resting on some laurels without noticing what I was doing...

Want to ask you... can you say more about the benefit of 'intense emotions' in this process? I 'd be grateful.

Hello Minkton

This from the Tibetan Buddhist point of view.

Intense emotions are easy to see and thus easier work with....That's the simple answer :thumb:

Now to get complicated...;)!

The following will depend on one's attitude.
The Hinayana attitude would be to cut the emotions dead. They do, however, still arise.
The Mahayana attitude would be to find an antidote to the emotions. They do still arise though.
The Vajrayana attitude would be to transmute the emotions into wisdoms.
The Dzogchen/Mahamudra attitude would be to see that the emotions never existed in the first place.

Here's a story to illustrate this:
There is a poisonous bush (the negative emotions).
A Hinayana practitioner wouldn't go near it.
A Mahayana student would put a fence around it to protect others.
A Vajrayana student would produce medicine from the bush.
A Dzogchen/Mahamudra student would understand that the bush never existed!

When I said “intense emotions,” I was speaking from the Vajrayana perspective, where one has no fear of the emotions.



I don't know if this will help, but here goes.

Our very subtle consciousness is, in essence, empty (unfabricated).

It is said that our essence prisms into the five wisdoms:
Mirror-like wisdom
Discriminating wisdom
The wisdom of Equality
All-encompassing wisdom
All-Accomplishing wisdom.

These five wisdoms are said to have five qualities:
Mirror-like wisdom = clarity precision
Discriminating wisdom = selfless appreciation.
Wisdom of Equality = generosity
Accomplishing wisdom = efficiency without ambition
Encompassing wisdom = spaciousness

These five wisdoms are the bases for the emotions!

When this very subtle Consciousness looks out and sees something, if it is in unity with its empty essence, it just sees.
However, if the empty essence is forgotten, the thing seen will produce an emotion (because the empty essence has been forgotten).
A judgement will arise, and 'other' will arise, because the “I” has slipped in.

Mirror-like = Clarity/precision = Anger = I don't like
Discriminating = Selfless appreciation = Desire = I want
Equality = Generosity = Pride = I am better
Accomplishing = Efficiency without ambition = Jealousy = I am worse
Encompassing = Spaciousness = Ignorance = I don't care

This all happens so quickly that it goes unnoticed.
All that has happened is that the wisdoms became over excited, because they forgot their empty essence.
We also forgot the empty essence of all phenomena. Everything is empty by nature, having no inherent existence.

When one has realised one's true essence, then whenever an emotion arises, that very first instance of the emotion (before the I sets in), can remind you of your true essence!
How wonderful is that?!
You never need to be afraid of your emotions again! Or anyone else's!
When this is realised, true unshakable confidence can arise.

Awaken the warrior!

At that moment true compassion wells up.

Bet you're glad you asked...:lol: - but it was an incredibly important question.

Tony

[minkton]

OKAY! I am SO glad I asked, that was a brilliant answer, more brilliant than I could have hoped for from anyone, anywhere. I gonna cut and paste it so I can refer to it and integrate it. Your concision is a delight and your scope there precisely what I needed to know. Thankyou so much.:)

[13th Warrior]

When I woke up this mornin' I felt a pang.
I was hungerin' for some apple pie.
Stumble in the bathroom, hung my hog a little bit.
Washed the sleep out of my eye.
Oh yeah, it's gonna be a fine day.
Scratched myself a bit.
Poured me out a bowl-a corn chex.
Closest thing I could find to apple pie.
Lingerin' taste of toothpaste
Made the milk go down a bit funny.
But you know, them chex they do satisfy.
Oh yeah, this'll be a fine day.
So, after my mornin' rise-n-shine and eat-n-clean.
Had my mind set to hit them streets.
Drizzle from the night left cold puddles out.
[From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/p/primus-lyrics/groundhog_s-day-lyrics.html ]
Had my black stomp-boots on my feet.
It's my day.

Since I was in kneepants my pop had tried to make me realize.
If I set my mind down to it I could be a big man in the public eye.
So with my big blue collar on, I set out to find the easy way.
What an ice cold bath it was when I found you had to pay to play.
To taste the taste it's a tease that never would subside.
The taste is strong but soured by my learned eyes.
Well, if a woodchuck could chuck wood, he'd get down on his knees to pray.
This little snappy boy might see the light this ground hog's day.

iXfpIFvx1H8



This sounds like groundhogs day to me.


Exhausting good karma.

Karma is a word used to describe the results of causes and effect created by our reactions and intentions. It is stored in the eighth consciousness of the mind: it's the software. Because we hold onto ideas about ourselves, we constantly add or maintain this self image. Therefore we go round in circles, and the same things keep happening to us...in our world!

So whatever occurs in the present moment - physical or mental - is a product of the past. It was karmically created.
If we 're-act', we keep the whole process going.
If we do not 're-act', no karma is created.

[Tony]

Dear 13th

In Groundhog Day, he learned to love and that was what broke the repeating cycle :whoo:

Lots of love (that will just go on repeating...)
Tony

[13th Warrior]

Dear 13th

In Groundhog Day, he learned to love and that was what broke the repeating cycle :whoo:

Lots of love (that will just go on repeating...)
Tony

Lots of "love" repeating...like lots of good "karma" repeating...can one word be replaced with the other?

[Tony]

Dear 13th

In Groundhog Day, he learned to love and that was what broke the repeating cycle :whoo:

Lots of love (that will just go on repeating...)
Tony

Lots of "love" repeating...like lots of good "karma" repeating...can one word be replaced with the other?

Yes! Actually, that's a brilliant idea!!
Because love means you are considering the other person more than yourself, and that is compassion - and therefore you are not producing bad karma.

However (you knew that was coming, didn't you :eyebrows: ?!) unconditional compassion won't be out to make the other person feel good about themselves.
Unconditional compassion has no expectations of anything in return to benefit you. The action is dropped immediately, without and clinging: it is complete in itself.
Rather, it will be dealing directly with ego's games and therefore no karma is produced.

There are 4 "enlightened activities":
Pacifiying
Magnetising
Enriching
Destroying

I'll write more about those tomorrow.
Nice chatting with you!
Tony

[alienHunter]

Hi Pie'n'eal,

yes indeed, that is some good stuff. I don't often 'decide' to listen carefully when someone speaks, but you got me hooked...thanks

[alienHunter]

"However (you knew that was coming, didn't you ?!) unconditional compassion won't be out to make the other person feel good about themselves.
Unconditional compassion has no expectations of anything in return to benefit you. The action is dropped immediately, without and clinging: it is complete in itself.
Rather, it will be dealing directly with ego's games and therefore no karma is produced."

I had a relationship like that once...it lasted about two weeks...not really, the relationship produced the only incarnation of unconditional love that I've ever experienced...my daughter.

[minkton]

I'll write more about those tomorrow.



*intense emotion of gladness*

;)

[nf857]

In deciding who is the do'er I find myself with three possibilities for identifying the perpetrator

a) That which I am

b) That which I am not

c) Of the infinite set of all, which encompasses both A and B.

Those lucky people that find this easy, may have concluded that A is created in the image of B, so they are in a way the same; so 'C' may be choice.

Those people identifying with the self, will choose A

Those people recognizing B as a mirror of A are free to choose A or B

What do you choose?

Im a great beleiver in Karma, snowball great ananlogy, however it comprises more than A or B or C. If only it was so easy to understand. I think if it was, there would be no bad karma. Karma would have packed its bags and left.However they are still around. That which you are, & that which you arn't can so easily be changed on a daily basis, if not hourly basis. If you go with either A or B you will always be stuck there, C is infinity if that is where you place it, however infinity is all the letters. A-Z So the snowball can start at A & go hurling downwards to Z. When you next see A it will remind you of B-Z'.


So whatever occurs in the present moment - physical or mental - is a product of the past. It was karmically created.
If we 're-act', we keep the whole process going.
If we do not 're-act', no karma is created

Here's whats allways made me wonder about Karma, it can be 'good' or 'bad' depending how you view it. So is Karma Naughty or Nice? If we react we keep 'Karma' going, if don't react we keep 'Karma' going. As the past-future future-past. If 'Karma' can travel at the speed of light to send you its message it has to reside in you past, present and future. What being can do that? Un-less of course it is a being that is beyond the realms of time.


Intense intelligence
Intense compassion
Intense emotions

Well you've found me, however ive done away with these classifications as i dont view thyself as just these things lol


There is the realization that there are no personal events and life happens for you not to you.
You are the totality all of it --- there is no individual self.
The illusion is a belief in the individual self.
Ramesh Balsekar (Advaita Sage) said. The biggest obstacle to enlightenment is the thought that you are the doer.
The ego cant stand that and lays claim to being the author of your life.

If life happens for 'me' i would say it is deceptive as it makes me view life as a gift that has been handed to me, whether we re:incarnate or not to learn the path to enlightenment, we are a beleiver of its 'lessons'. We could follow its 'path' & end up in 'hell' sorry i know that upsets people's equalibrims, however you can remain in 'purgatory' forever and ever. Karmaic effect will always do battle with your wills, however once you don't even see 'good or bad' or think you have control over it at all, you stop seeing any karma at all.

[QUOTE]am still trying to come to terms with the concept that I have no free will.

I am so pleased that you are, please never come to terms with this, anything that takes your freedom away is never going to give you enlightenment. Will-Intent Two separate things, you can will somebody to do something, however they might not want or need to do it. This is where you have to think about what your intentions are, for 'self' or 'fellow self'? Who makes you the judge? If you never intend you were never intending in the first place, as your intention changed from Intending to not Intending. When we say 'Oh i fully intended' we are lying to 'self'


I can accept that the God's will flows through the sages but I query that everything I do is the will of God.


Quite rightly so, if you accept this it takes responsiblity from 'self' onto an unknown 'entity' and this is not what its message is.


When I said “intense emotions,” I was speaking from the Vajrayana perspective, where one has no fear of the emotions

It won't have fears as the ''intense emotions'' are not or do not exist at all, devaluing why we have 'intense emotions' dumbing down if you like? Would you not say thats a fair assumption. If i no longer have emotion, of any kind whatsoever i am nothing. As all our emotions good/bad are part of this existence, the key is to not try and get rid of them or not see them, certainly you should not 'use' your emotions or try an avoid them, nor shold you have to protect them, emotions are just part of being alive, there is no way to get past them, however once you realise they are just there for a reason you certainly get passed the 'ego' of them.

[Anchor]

Im a great beleiver in Karma, snowball great ananlogy, however it comprises more than A or B or C. If only it was so easy to understand. I think if it was, there would be no bad karma. Karma would have packed its bags and left.However they are still around. That which you are, & that which you arn't can so easily be changed on a daily basis, if not hourly basis. If you go with either A or B you will always be stuck there, C is infinity if that is where you place it, however infinity is all the letters. A-Z So the snowball can start at A & go hurling downwards to Z. When you next see A it will remind you of B-Z'.

Excellent. Thanks for that, next time I will amend my analogy - it may be too basic.

The problem I find when trying to describe my thoughts on this, is the ever present infinite aspect to what we are and are not; and it changes the rules, and makes it very hard to articulate.

I think your snowball turned into a ball-bearing in a pin-ball machine :)

[nf857]

Mirror-like = Clarity/precision = Anger = I don't like
Discriminating = Selfless appreciation = Desire = I want
Equality = Generosity = Pride = I am better
Accomplishing = Efficiency without ambition = Jealousy = I am worse
Encompassing = Spaciousness = Ignorance = I don't care

However the bigger picture is that Mirror-like is equal to' I Don't Like', thereby when we see ourselves like/dislike are at a battle of wills with each other. Discriminting is equal to I Don't Like, Equality is equal to I Am Better, Accomplishing is Equal to 'I am Worse', Encompassing is equal to 'I Don't Care' Thereby doing will with each other, once you realise that you are at battle with yourself, you can take away these equations.

If i no longer analyse what i see in the mirror i am no longer at battle with my ego, if i no longer discriminate i no longer hate, if i dont see anybody as anything as lesser than me i no longer think im better than anyone (equality), If i have accomplished something i see myself as worse before i accomplished it, Encompassing things means i no longer care. Stop battling your wills.


QUOTE]Mirror-like = Clarity/precision = Anger = I don't like
Discriminating = Selfless appreciation = Desire = I want
Equality = Generosity = Pride = I am better
Accomplishing = Efficiency without ambition = Jealousy = I am worse
Encompassing = Spaciousness = Ignorance = I don't care

However the bigger picture is that Mirror-like is equal to' I Don't Like', thereby when we see ourselves like/dislike are at a battle of wills with each other. Discriminting is equal to I Don't Like, Equality is equal to I Am Better, Accomplishing is Equal to 'I am Worse', Encompassing is equal to 'I Don't Care' Thereby doing will with each other, once you realise that you are at battle with yourself, you can take away these equations.

If i no longer analyse what i see in the mirror i am no longer at battle with my ego, if i no longer discriminate i no longer hate, if i dont see anybody as anything as lesser than me i no longer think im better than anyone (equality), If i have accomplished something i see myself as worse before i accomplished it, Encompassing things means i no longer care. Stop battling your wills.
[/QUOTE]

[nf857]

I think your snowball turned into a ball-bearing in a pin-ball machine

Well life is a rollercoaster as they say, it could also be a ball-bearing in a pinball machine lol x

[nf857]

In Groundhog Day, he learned to love and that was what broke the repeating cycle



Love it, yes he learnt to acknowledge the man who was so happy to see him, theyby negating the bad karma or leg ending up in the puddle. x

[Ba-ba-Ra]

I view Karma as the Universe showing us what our thoughts and beliefs are creating. I don't believe it's either a reward or a punishment, but a mirror to teach. It's saying: Look at what's happening in your life. Now, can you back-engineer what you were doing, thinking, saying and believing to create this? And now knowing this, how can you do it differently.

Karma, IMO, is a great teaching tool that gives us the opportunity to understand how we create, as well as teaching us responsibility for what we've created.

[Tony]

Dear nf,

The teachings of the Buddha are not opinions.
It is a fully worked out system of how to see, for anyone who wishes to see. There are many other systems to choose from. We all have to come to terms with our view of life: if it totally satisfies then it is right for that individual. If we devise our own system and it works, all well and good (although if we look closely we will find it is taken from other systems....sort of cherry picking).

One of the problems is looking at another view while still holding on tightly to our own - that's like sewing with a two headed needle...it doesn't work! It can cause confusion, and argument....and suffering.

The Buddha's teachings are available to all: they are truly profound, and work at many levels.
To repeat, there are other systems.

Let's take a look at anger.

We see a picture wonky on the wall (or a wonky person). We get angry, we want to put 'it' right.
However, looking closely, we see that anger wasn't the first thing to arise - it was just the noticing! That first instant of noticing was pure perception...your true nature. It was mirror-like wisdom...just reflecting.

But then “I” got in the way. “I” is a self-made image that clings to the ideas about itself. That reaction of clinging is called ego. The action of clinging = ego.

So when one truly knows one's true essence, the moment anger arises, it reminds one that this is merely mirror-like wisdom - and so one lets go of any further reactions.
Reaction just makes us go round in circles...the same old things keep happening...one gets the same old responses from others.

There is nothing wrong with negative emotions! But... Holding on to these emotions is 'wrong' because it causes suffering. Right!

Claiming one has no ego...is ego!

This whole process is about learning love. Once one loves one's own true nature, because there was never ever anything wrong with it in the first place, then one can love everyone and everything else.

All the best,
Tony

[Tony]

Dear 13th

In Groundhog Day, he learned to love and that was what broke the repeating cycle :whoo:

Lots of love (that will just go on repeating...)
Tony

Lots of "love" repeating...like lots of good "karma" repeating...can one word be replaced with the other?


Dear 13th Warrior,



This is about Buddha and Bodhisattva activities.

It is about the four enlightened activities and how the dark forces (Maras) can pervert them within us.

THE CONSTRUCTIVE WISDOMS = THE FOUR ACTIONS
With the laws of attraction, you have to be aware that there are other laws as well, and that each one can be distorted by the ego! This is because our capacity is not strong enough yet.
I'll try and keep this brief.

Along the fast path one develops all five wisdoms. A fully enlightened person will manifest them when a particular situation arises. These five wisdoms convert into the four karmas (actions). One of the wisdoms allows the others to take place.

The karmas/actions are PACIFYING, ENRICHING, MAGNETISING AND DESTROYING.
Pacifying connects to mirror-like wisdom.
Enriching connects to the wisdom of equality.
Magnetising connects to discriminating wisdom.
Destroying connects to all-accomplishing wisdom.
The fifth wisdom of space allows the other four to operate.

The karma of pacifying accommodates everything. It reveals that there are no problems, and that aggression from the ego is unnecessary.

The karma of enriching brings to light the process of growth, and allows the process of knowledge.

The karma of magnetising bypasses the conventional reality. In conventional reality, we continually try to draw desired situations towards ourselves and fend off undesirable ones. A realised person simply remains as he or she is, without this ego intervention, attracting naturally.

The karma of destroying is connected to compassion, aimed at ego's manipulations.

THE DISTORTIONS OF EGO = THE FOUR MARAS.
These four demonic activities are directed at building and fortifying our concept of 'self.'

The mara of pacifying appears as devaputra mara.
It attempts to make peace by using pleasure and security, to eliminate what is unpleasant. It is an imitation of genuine pacifying, which is beyond any self-serving strategy ( … “there, there - it will be alright, trust me”).

The mara of enriching is skanda mara, the mara of accumulating.
Ego takes the natural growth and turns it into its own ground. It takes the richness, and turns it into my wealth (… “see how clever I am”).

The mara of magnetising is klesha mara.
One attempts to attract, to feed one's ego with what is desirable, based on the possessive emotions ( … “I enjoy praying for others” ).

The mara of destroying is Yama mara.
Yama mara, instead of destroying what needs to be destroyed, obliterates everything. Trungpa Rinpoche wrote, “it begins to get inspired in the wrong way, and uproots the whole tree...And that is the karmic quality of destruction gone wild, unnecessarily” (… “you are talking total rubbish!”).

This reveals that reality is nothing other than wisdom. We need to look closely at the world we actually inhabit and to contemplate our most ordinary experiences. If we do so, if we let go of what we think and simply let the true being show itself, we will discover that it is nothing other than primordial immaculate wisdom.

Remember: the outer demons do not miss a trick! Any whiff of ego involvement and they will feed off it. And off we go round in circles, re-acting... “Feeding time!!”



Look, the path to enlightenment, is simple, but not easy.....it takes perseverance to look out for all the mind traps!

[nf857]

There is nothing wrong with negative emotions. Holding onto these emotions is 'wrong' because it causes suffering. Right!

Claiming one has no ego...is ego!

This whole process is learning love. Once one loves one's own true nature, because there was never ever anything wrong with it in the first place, then one can love everyone and everything else.



However isnt love an entity with its own 'Ego' that believes there is nothing wrong with 'itself' i can think of many things wrong with 'Love' as it forms attachment to things, and doesnt let go,i.e i had a very painful experience of my 'first true love' i never could 'detach' myself 'self' from this 'unconditional love' how does one detach from 'unconditional love' it can't as it promises to always love 'it', this brings me to why 'grief' is the hardest emotion to bypass, as when we 'grieve' for somebody we are 'grieving' for the life it had, & no longer does have in this 'material plain of existence'.

Please dont think im trying to pick out holes in the budda teachings, im just trying to undestand them, as all paths to enlightment, we never every know if somebody became 'englightened' as they wouldn't be her in existence. To become 'enlightened' we have to get beyond 'time/space' to become 'all we ever were, ever can be, ever are'. A teacher can teach a student, however a teacher can also learn itself from its students, 'ego' i don't thick we can ever 'detach' from 'ego' as 'ego' tells me when to 'eat', 'sleep' etc, as 'ego' is what 'it is'. If you think you have 'transcended' from 'ego', who then is pulling the strings?

Also you stated that the spiritual warrior has to be of 'intense emotion' & then you state you have to learn how to get rid of 'intense emotion' therefore a contradiction in terms? is that not fair to say? Im just trying to understand it, ive always wanted to know more about 'Budda' teachings, your right it doesn't matter which perspective we look at, it all points to 'transcending' 'oneself' however, i dont think anybody knows whether they have passed the test do they? You can live by its rules, however did you ever 'transcend' by them? Are you a being that can 'trascend' beyond 'space/time' ? Karma is proof that we have been here before, however how do we get out of 'purgatory'?


It is a fully worked out system of how to see, for anyone who wishes to see. There are many other systems to choose from. We all have to come to terms with our view of life: if it totally satisfies then it is right for that individual. If we devise our own system and it works, all well and good (although if we look closely we will find it is taken from other systems....sort of cherry picking).


If it is a fully worked out system, do you not see it as a perfect means of control? Im sure you will find if you research its history, than its been amended many, many, many times. Somebody had to 'create it' in the first place, 'how do you think people worked out its existence?'. They had to learn by its 'rules' or 'Codes Of Conduct', however how can you trust it? Does it show you your future? ' x

[Tony]

I totally empathise with what you are saying!

75% of teachings are provable. 20% is inference, and one has to do a bit of work. 5% is faith.
So, once you have got to the 95% you are pretty well certain that this makes sense.
One just has to persevere and practise.

Unconditional love is the outcome of experiencing one's true nature, and realising that all other sentient beings have the same potential, but may not recognise it. Unconditional love is...loving to bits...without any expectation of anything in return.

As one proceeds, the world does change, because one's perception changes.

You are asking all the right questions! And of course, the answer is within. Not outside.
Then...everything is a reflection of that answer.

Tony

PS we're not trying to get rid of intense emotions. We are trying to understand their nature.
There's a lot more to that...this is just a taster!

PPS as to the "method of control" If you see it as such, that's entirely up to you! Remember...both beauty and ugliness are in the eye of the beholder.

[nf857]

I view Karma as the Universe showing us what our thoughts and beliefs are creating. I don't believe it's either a reward or a punishment, but a mirror to teach. It's saying: Look at what's happening in your life. Now, can you back-engineer what you were doing, thinking, saying and believing to create this? And now knowing this, how can you do it differently.

Karma, IMO, is a great teaching tool that gives us the opportunity to understand how we create, as well as teaching us responsibility for what we've created

That is a great way to view it, however 'good karma/bad karma' you can never actually negate it no matter how many times you re-incarnate, & actually the more you know about 'karma' the more power it has, as the more you learn it, the more it can 'materialise' & thereby giving you more 'good/bad karma' i would love to know how you ever, ever, ever get out of 'karma's existence' ? Its infinity, how do you get out of 'Purgatory?' is the question? x

[Tarka the Duck]

@


If i no longer analyse what i see in the mirror

How about considering that it's not a matter of looking in the mirror...more that you are the mirror.
This would be seen more clearly through meditation, and not the conceptual mind.

Kathie

[nf857]

I
totally empathise with what you are saying!

75% of teachings are provable. 20% is inference, and one has to do a bit of work. 5% is faith.
So, once you have got to the 95% you are pretty well certain that this makes sense.
One just has to persevere and practise.

Unconditional love is the outcome of experiencing one's true nature, and realising that all other sentient beings have the same potential, but may not recognise it. Unconditional love is...loving to bits...without any expectation of anything in return.

As one proceeds, the world does change, because one's perception changes.

You are asking all the right questions! And of course, the answer is within. Not outside.
Then...everything is a reflection of that answer.

Tony

PS we're not trying to get rid of intense emotions. We are trying to understand their nature.
There's a lot more to that...this is just a taster!

PPS as to the "method of control" If you see it as such, that's entirely up to you! Remember...both beauty and ugliness are in the eye of the beholder.

I should hope you would, as you are human arnt you? I ask how do you live your life on a day to day basis? Is not teaching the lessons of 'budda' 'ego' itself? As your 'identity' is a teacher? Im not sure if you view yourself that way, thats why i ask? Do you view yourself as its messenger? Its the 5% faith thing i really struggle with no matter which perspective i look into it? As its taking the leap? How do i trust it? It is no different to any other teachings in what it purports to do for you? I could follow a 'christian faith' or 'Pagan' Faith- dont worry i think that is the worse of its kind, however i just few them all as 'false gods' when i was 5 and learnt the bible, i figured out that its teachings said 'anything that pretends to be me' is not 'me', so the christian bible is a contracdiction in terms? As it tells you 'im not god'.

P.S Beauty is the eye of the 'beholder' therefore making you a 'judge' of it, one person 'sees it as 'ugly' another sees it as 'beautiful' so therefore you are not transcending your 'ego' or 'self' as you are judging it? Is that not fair to say? I think this is where faith leaves off for me, as how do i trust whether 'its ugly or beautiful'? Its not a question of its 'face-value' is it? Its a question on whether its 'good' or 'evil'? If by its teachings you life has had some very positive things come out from it, your are only seeing the 'good karma' arnt you? x

[nf857]

How about considering that it's not a matter of looking in the mirror...more that you are the mirror.
This would be seen more clearly through meditation, and not the conceptual mind.



Hi Kathie, trust me i have honestly, thought of this concept, however if i am 'the mirror' i am 'ego' itself & also a very......very....very... BIG BULLY! What have you found through meditating? I myself find meditation very, very hard, as i try to un-concentrate the mind, i find im 'concentrating' more or holding 'concentration' at one point in time. It may let me travel out of body,or go into the astral plane, however i dont know the astral plane is real, its just a 'dream state', also for me kathie i have severe M.E./Fibromyalgia my phsyical body is constantly in pain, so its very hard to relax ones mind when its in constant disarray.

[Tony]

Dear nf,

You are mixing up terminologies. Different paths use the same word but have different meanings. Confusing?......too bloody right it's confusing! Laughing!
You are not ego...ego does not, never has existed!
I wrote a thread about this some time ago, I'll dig it out.

Ego is being used like the word sin. Both are control mechanisms to make us feel guilty. From the Buddhists perspective ego is consciousness grasping at concepts.
Let go of the concepts and..................there you are!

If one does not look, or meditate, one will merely go round in endless circles. Concepts cannot be seen through more concepts, we have to go beyond.
The only proof you will get is if, 'you' suck it and see. I have this lovely thing called an apple, it is delicious. The only way you will know what an apple tastes like is......!

Empathically yours,
Tony

[nf857]

Hi Tony,

You truely are a 'wonder' if i dont conceive of 'ego' in fact have no 'ego' who am i?what am i? where did i come from? where did i go? which direction did i go in? which direction did i come back from? when all this hits you in the face 'who am i?' 'what am i? Its is the same as what a computer asks its creater?

Computer mind.........you are telling me to find a solution to your problem? What is your problem? I need more memory bites? Ok i have more memory bites? What do you want to know? I can tell you when you give me more memory? Ok you have now given me more memory, however your question is still not in my memory to do so? Ok you give me more memory? Now i am 'dangerous' you have made me a 'fully consious' entity, who has a mind of its own, remember 'Terminator' 'Judgement Day' ? Exactly why enlighment is dangeous, if we remember all we ever are, all we ever could be, & all we ever were' we are a danger to ourselves? So maybe when we are fully consious, we realise this, & try to help people, however if people are not ready for this, we are a danger to humanity? x

[greybeard]

Ego could be said to be identification with the story of me---- its just thought based.
The ego maintains a separate self through a sense of lack.
Chris

[13th Warrior]

We need to look closely at the world we actually inhabit and to contemplate our most ordinary experiences. If we do so, if we let go of what we think and simply let the true being show itself, we will discover that it is nothing other than primordial immaculate wisdom.

Greeting pie'n'eal,

What i've quoted of you, is what i try to concentrate on; it seems many come to this forum for wisdom...i look for it in everyday life, in everything ...

[nf857]

Hi Chris,

Good post BTW.


Ego could be said to be identification with the story of me---- its just thought based.
The ego maintains a separate self through a sense of lack.
Chris

If we go with the 'Ego' that is separate through a sense of lack/knowing, it is now in control of you? If it is lacking knowing, its is worse than it was before? Its the lacking/knowing that
takes away our 'free-will'. It uses your lack of knowledge if you like as it can't handle the truth, so stays asleep/dumbed down. If there is only one 'consiousness' entity? Who is the other ego? We can't view anything as 'good' or 'evil' however we can view it as 'duality' if 'duality' resides within us we are at 'battle' with ourselves, whether we choose to acknowledge that we are 'good/evil' is upto us? Too much talk about it being an outside factor? It is within us? What are you doing with your darkness? Are you ignoring it? Pretending it does not exist within? We are our own creaters, we creating all this, despite what 'false gods' or 'false entities' want you to beleive. These are the beings that we have created with our 'good/bad/ within us? We can fight ourselves, we can fight each other, or we can accept who we are? In all we are/all we ever were, all we can be x

[Ba-ba-Ra]

@


If i no longer analyse what i see in the mirror

How about considering that it's not a matter of looking in the mirror...more that you are the mirror.
This would be seen more clearly through meditation, and not the conceptual mind.
Kathie

Either way, or both. In my mind the important thing is to find an understanding of how we are creating. Everyone and everything that comes into our lives is a reflection, but usually we try to change or correct the reflection instead of ourselves. Parents often do this with their children.

[Tony]

That is a great way to view it, however 'good karma/bad karma' you can never actually negate it no matter how many times you re-incarnate, & actually the more you know about 'karma' the more power it has, as the more you learn it, the more it can 'materialise' & thereby giving you more 'good/bad karma' i would love to know how you ever, ever, ever get out of 'karma's existence' ? Its infinity, how do you get out of 'Purgatory?' is the question? x

Just so we can get on the same page, where did your information come from about never exhausting karma?
If that is true, we are stuffed!

I have found that my life has changed a great deal - for the better. Perhaps I live in a huge delusion!!!!
But somehow purgatory can be seen as never existing in the first place...it was just a state of mind.

Your questioning is wonderful: most people do not have question...they only have answers.
My questioning has got me thrown out of spiritual centres (several times :p)!!!

I hope over time your inner questions get answered.

All the best,
Tony

[nf857]

If one does not look, or meditate, one will merely go round in endless circles. Concepts cannot be seen through more concepts, we have to go beyond.
The only proof you will get is if, 'you' suck it and see. I have this lovely thing called an apple, it is delicious. The only way you will know what an apple tastes like is......!

& tony was not 'apple' the forbidden fruit? Why was it forbidden? I have found that my life has changed a great deal - for the better. Perhaps I live in a huge delusion!!!!


But somehow purgatory can be seen as never existing in the first place...it was just a state of mind.


I think if you look within hard enough you will find the answer tony, as 'Purgatory' is the 'control' once we stop living by 'laws of fear' i.e 'Karma' we stop acknowledging 'control' & we 'transcend', this is how 'frankenstein' become more than his 'creator'. P.S I know the question, before the question knows me!!


have found that my life has changed a great deal - for the better. Perhaps I live in a huge delusion!!!!


It is the 'delusion' that controls you if you are only seeing your 'good karma' 'karma' still has control. You have not trascended you 'ego'. To never have 'ego' is to never 'judge' your existence as that is the 'trickery' of the 'delusion', however we are all 'deluded' in some form, its is more a question of 'illusion', whats behind the 'mirror'? What did Alice see when she went through the 'Looking Glass', she saw 'the machinations' of how 'illusion' worked, however she still wanting to come back to 'illusion' for her own reasons


Your questioning is wonderful: most people do not have question...they only have answers.
My questioning has got me thrown out of spiritual centres (several times )!!!

Thanks hopefully we are both still learning from our material body in spacetime, me too, however no matter how knowledgable i become is this the path to enlightenment, or is knowledge an 'illusion' too? How are we ever to learn if we never question? lol, its great you have been thrown out of spiritual centres, they dont like it, when they can't provide the answers to there 'steadfast' beleives of their existence. Its the holding on that people have a problem with, as i do, once i love something i never can stop loving it. When i grieve, i grieve forever? When you question somebody's steadfast beleives, they dont like you prooving its an illusion, or a control?

Ive never met 'karma' as far as i know, i think he can only 'control' when you 'let him in?' x