Instant 'enlightenment' does not exist!

[Tony]

Instant 'enlightenment' does not exist...without previous work.
We would, however, prefer something easy..."Just add water"! (or... watered down)

So, we turn against all religions, accusing them of sex, scandals and eating babies!
We are the Smart New Righteous Generation, bringing in the new...?!

Q Why are you suddenly trusting this new 'stuff '?
A Because you are supposed to!

It's been orchestrated that way!

“Go with your feelings! Whatever resonates with you! Trust only in your feelings! ” ...which have been put there by hidden powers...

“No! You do not have to do any work! Just trust new improved instant 'I am source'! All you have to do is wait to be picked up!”...by the ones you trust ...but have never met...

There are hidden powers, who are selling you the golden roof, with no foundation to the building.
New, attractive, fun gurus tell you not to trust others but your inner self...your self-cherishing higher self!

Wake up people! You are really going to sleep!
It's being orchestrated that way!

This golden roof is the Maha Ati teachings.
I have had talks with Tibetan lamas about this: people are taking these teachings, and cherry picking the attractive bits to suit their agenda.
These teachings are about non-meditation and one's true nature.
But Maha Ati teachings are at the ninth level – and if we have not gone through the other levels, we will come to a sticky end...swamped in pride and lacking true compassion.
These teachings are absolutely true: I have received them and practised them, and I know how (and that) they work.

“Non-meditation” does not mean no meditation!
“We are pure essence” ...but we are still stirring the muddy water!
“Nothing is real” ...doesn't mean it won't have a effect on you!

"New, attractive, fun gurus tell it like it is!"
No, they do not...
This type of 'new' teaching is being heavily promoted, and certain individuals are being pushed into the public arena, encouraging the 'lazy path'.
Following that, you can be even more easily controlled.

Can you not see the subtle digging away of fundamental preliminary practices?

Once you have a firm foundation you can play music, paint freely, service your own computer......and service your own mind.

You ARE being got at...it's been orchestrated that way!

Perhaps I am at fault: having received such intensive teachings, I am writing them about them.
My wish was to convey a taste of them to others, who may never have had the opportunity to receive them and may then wish to go and find a source of authentic teachings themselves.
They are truly precious.
They are not for those who enjoy the hobby of comic book philosophising.

[Jenci]

"New, attractive, fun gurus tell it like it is!"
No, they do not...
This type of 'new' teaching is being heavily promoted, and certain individuals are being pushed into the public arena, encouraging the 'lazy path'.
Following that, you can be even more easily controlled.

Hi Tony,

Can you be more specific about what you mean by 'new' teaching and certain individuals being pushed into the public arena? Are you refering to any teaching not in a traditional Buddhist sense or something more specific?



Perhaps I am at fault: having received such intensive teachings, I am writing them about them.
My wish was to convey a taste of them to others, who may never have had the opportunity to receive them and may then wish to go and find a source of authentic teachings themselves.
They are truly precious.
They are not for those who enjoy the hobby of comic book philosophising.
I don't think you are at fault, Tony. :) You share very well on the teachings you have received and I think anyone can tell this is precious to you.
These teachings you share provide a lot of insight and direction.

You're right, instant enlightenment does not exist. It takes a lot of work and a lot of vigilance because as soon as the veil of illusion gets lifted, it drops down again.
Jeanette

[Tony]

"New, attractive, fun gurus tell it like it is!"
No, they do not...
This type of 'new' teaching is being heavily promoted, and certain individuals are being pushed into the public arena, encouraging the 'lazy path'.
Following that, you can be even more easily controlled.

Hi Tony,

Can you be more specific about what you mean by 'new' teaching and certain individuals being pushed into the public arena? Are you refering to any teaching not in a traditional Buddhist sense or something more specific?



Perhaps I am at fault: having received such intensive teachings, I am writing them about them.
My wish was to convey a taste of them to others, who may never have had the opportunity to receive them and may then wish to go and find a source of authentic teachings themselves.
They are truly precious.
They are not for those who enjoy the hobby of comic book philosophising.
I don't think you are at fault, Tony. :) You share very well on the teachings you have received and I think anyone can tell this is precious to you.
These teachings you share provide a lot of insight and direction.

You're right, instant enlightenment does not exist. It takes a lot of work and a lot of vigilance because as soon as the veil of illusion gets lifted, it drops down again.
Jeanette

Hello Jenci,
Ah...answering that question will probably start people arguing!

Suggestion: In crime we are told the follow the money. Here we follow the source.
If someone gives information, ask where did that information come from?
Is it second hand knowledge or first hand knowledge?
The closer to the source, the more precise we have to be.

All the best,
Tony

[minkton]

Very much agreed. No such thing as instant enlightenment. What sometimes happens is people have an epiphany which shows them a glimpse through the veil which shifts their perspective before they revert to former perception. What sometimes happens is our consciousness expands and we think 'this is IT!" and of course.. no "I" ever got enlightened, anyhow..

[Jenci]

[Hello Jenci,
Ah...answering that question will probably start people arguing!

Suggestion: In crime we are told the follow the money. Here we follow the source.
If someone gives information, ask where did that information come from?
Is it second hand knowledge or first hand knowledge?
The closer to the source, the more precise we have to be.

All the best,
Tony


LOL, Tony, no we don't want arguments :)

There are many methods/techniques/teachings supposedly pointing towards enlightenment. Those which are real, are the ones which point away from the mind.

Those which point towards the mind, point away from enlightenment..... but they are seductive because they promise that the mind can be eased and soothed by mental techniques.

But ultimately even those mental techniques, when they fail, can point to enlightenment. When the illusion is seen, it has a habit of shattering the mind/ego and its beliefs.

Enlightenment is not about feeling better. It's about the Truth. So, who's up for the Truth?
Jeanette

[solosthere]

Jenci and Tony
I am getting the feeling that enlightenment leads you first to look for the truth and as you see the truth ,or dont see, you later find that in this world there is NO truth. If all is unreal then how can any of it be true. We all know that we, as humans, can not even see the true essence of our own world and our selfs, not if we are only using 5 senses to percieve it. It is when we look with our other "senses" that we begin to see the truth in things. So if we look with only our 5 senses then we will never find the truth. Instead we must look within and see with our 3rd eye it is only there that we see the truth. This is all unreal it is only our perception not what it actually is. The only thing that true is consiousness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tony]

When one is introduced to the source of inspiration, ones true essence,
which is the simplest of simplests, creativity just bursts out into multiplicity.

You see, that the new ideas brigade do not want us to analyse = think = join up the dots.
They say thinking is bad...no it's not! Clinging is!

Let's take the title to a thread “Peace begins when expectation ends”.
When one analyses expectation we realise that this is hope or desire.
But it also the maintenance of fear, fear only exists as an expectation.

So, we can join up dots for ourselves...once we connect to our true nature of mind.

If you just told you are the source, what do you do then?
We expect something just to happen..it won't.
You will just go on waiting!

This is why 'we' have to dig deep, scrape off the dirt, and actually realise the truth.

The new ideas brigade want you to keep on waiting, telling you. “You are free!”
But what are we actually doing with this false freedom, apart from going round in circles.

I actually want modern Westerners to stand on their own two feet, shoulder to shoulder
with the ancient Eastern teachings.

Tony

[Tony]

Jenci and Tony
I am getting the feeling that enlightenment leads you first to look for the truth and as you see the truth ,or dont see, you later find that in this world there is NO truth. If all is unreal then how can any of it be true. We all know that we, as humans, can not even see the true essence of our own world and our selfs, not if we are only using 5 senses to percieve it. It is when we look with our other "senses" that we begin to see the truth in things. So if we look with only our 5 senses then we will never find the truth. Instead we must look within and see with our 3rd eye it is only there that we see the truth. This is all unreal it is only our perception not what it actually is. The only thing that true is consiousness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The five senses only reveal an illusory world. Now we have to look into consciousness itself.

[Sebastion]

Tony:

Just out of curiosity and according to the new religion, how do they define "enlightenment"?

[Tony]

Tony:

Just out of curiosity and according to the new religion, how do they define "enlightenment"?

They seem to be saying they are already 'there', one with the universe.
But this seems to be mere words. Yes, the right words, but very little manifestation..... effulgence ...glow!
It seems a feel good 'thing', with indifference to others, because they claim everything as an illusion.
Yes, again the right words, but little manifestation.

From what I have heard, enlightenment is beyond time and space, total control of matter
and able to manifest one hundred thousand emanations for the the benefit of all sentient beings.

A lama once said, “If you think you are enlightened, we have tests to prove it!”

Enlightenment probably has something to do with Light, Pure Light, Luminosity.
If one looks enlightenment, one will never find it.

Quote:
My dream-like form.
appeared to dream-like beings,
to show them the dream-like path,
which leads to dream-like enlightenment.



All the best,

[firstlook]

Its funny because I always related more to Bill Hicks version of "enlightenment" of exploding into a giant ball of light and showering every one with it. Not in the sense of literal definition but the idea made me realize its a process of manifestation and that is work of some kind, via consciousness. His little rants some how grounded me more then a gurus peaceful explanation. Although I do like to zone out and watch gurus talk, their so adorable. Lol. :p

I think our ability to organize or consciousness is what makes us spiritually ready for enlightenment. Time being a big factor in harnessing. IMO.

Great post Pie"n"eal. :)

[marique3652]

Instant 'enlightenment' does not exist...without previous work.
We would, however, prefer something easy..."Just add water"! (or... watered down)

So, we turn against all religions, accusing them of sex, scandals and eating babies!
We are the Smart New Righteous Generation, bringing in the new...?!

Q Why are you suddenly trusting this new 'stuff '?
A Because you are supposed to!

It's been orchestrated that way!

“Go with your feelings! Whatever resonates with you! Trust only in your feelings! ” ...which have been put there by hidden powers...

“No! You do not have to do any work! Just trust new improved instant 'I am source'! All you have to do is wait to be picked up!”...by the ones you trust ...but have never met...

There are hidden powers, who are selling you the golden roof, with no foundation to the building.
New, attractive, fun gurus tell you not to trust others but your inner self...your self-cherishing higher self!

Wake up people! You are really going to sleep!
It's being orchestrated that way!

This golden roof is the Maha Ati teachings.
I have had talks with Tibetan lamas about this: people are taking these teachings, and cherry picking the attractive bits to suit their agenda.
These teachings are about non-meditation and one's true nature.
But Maha Ati teachings are at the ninth level – and if we have not gone through the other levels, we will come to a sticky end...swamped in pride and lacking true compassion.
These teachings are absolutely true: I have received them and practised them, and I know how (and that) they work.

“Non-meditation” does not mean no meditation!
“We are pure essence” ...but we are still stirring the muddy water!
“Nothing is real” ...doesn't mean it won't have a effect on you!

"New, attractive, fun gurus tell it like it is!"
No, they do not...
This type of 'new' teaching is being heavily promoted, and certain individuals are being pushed into the public arena, encouraging the 'lazy path'.
Following that, you can be even more easily controlled.

Can you not see the subtle digging away of fundamental preliminary practices?

Once you have a firm foundation you can play music, paint freely, service your own computer......and service your own mind.

You ARE being got at...it's been orchestrated that way!

Perhaps I am at fault: having received such intensive teachings, I am writing them about them.
My wish was to convey a taste of them to others, who may never have had the opportunity to receive them and may then wish to go and find a source of authentic teachings themselves.
They are truly precious.
They are not for those who enjoy the hobby of comic book philosophising.

I may be taking a quantum leap here but what you have shared here reminds me of what I have found while trying to find my way in the "new age love and light" communities I have become a member of as I have been seeking new understandings and spiritual growth. I have heard over and over again at more than one site that a human cannot ascend without help because there will be no time before earth is uninhabitable, and that the only way one can ascend to a higher reality spiritually is to go into a GLF light ascention chamber, then either go off in spaceships to parts unknown or to go underground to escape earths wrath. I do not find that all all illuminating, it is downright control seeking. That reminds so much of what you said about "just add water". To me going into a chamber devised by a species or group of species unknown physically and tangibly by myself (but claimed to be known by others without any physical proof of existence) is definitely a short cut I would not be comfortable with, yet this concept is heavily pushed in a lot of new age communities. Also I have found that if you question their faith in the good aliens to the rescue of humanity scenario is that you get labeled as being in fear and somehow inferior because you do not believe in the scenario, which corresponds with what you said about being led in a direction and something being orchestrated that way for control of the masses. I am finding a LOT of new age beliefs that are being put in the spotlight are definitely beliefs that are controlling and restrictive in nature. As many of the beliefs espouse forgetting all your religions of the past, I find that they do not offer much more in the way of true guidance other than to create a religion out of new age beliefs, and those that question or disbelieve in what others espouse are somehow "doomed" for their lack of faith in the new age dogma. Just my observation on things, and what you have said truly resonates with how I feel about things as well.

[Tarka the Duck]

I suppose what you are reminding us of, Pie, is that in all other areas of existence, it appears we are being manipulated...we don't trust most "initiatives" in health, education, the media, law, social services...as we suspect they are introduced to manipulate us.
So why should the world of spirituality be any different? In our quest to find out about the inner world, we are fresh meat!
It's so attractive to be told reassuringly that we are already what we seek...
And why do so few of these "new, attractive, fun gurus" seem to openly and regularly acknowledge their roots?! They're not saying anything new...;)

Kathie

[marique3652]

A very good question Sebastion, and I also would love to have an answer to that....I am patiently awaiting that answer indeed.

[jagman]

I don't know what enlightenment is? But I always enjoy your posts Tony! I do constantly strive to become a better human being.
Sometimes I think i succeed in this endeavor and sometimes I know i fail miserably. I do feel it is worth the effort to try to improve
ones self. Tony I do have a question? Do you think there could be several paths to attain enlightenment?

[Tony]

I don't know what enlightenment is? But I always enjoy your posts Tony! I do constantly strive to become a better human being.
Sometimes I think i succeed in this endeavor and sometimes I know i fail miserably. I do feel it is worth the effort to try to improve
ones self. Tony I do have a question? Do you think there could be several paths to attain enlightenment?

Definitely !!
There are many paths to suit every temperament and capacity. It is interesting what karma brings up in our lives.

For example....we are having a conversation at this moment - karmic connections at work! You probably stood on me when I was a beetle and you were an allosaurus...
We rub shoulders for a while and then move on.

And the effort to improve is what it is all about ;)

Tony

[Jenci]

Jenci and Tony
I am getting the feeling that enlightenment leads you first to look for the truth and as you see the truth ,or dont see, you later find that in this world there is NO truth. If all is unreal then how can any of it be true. We all know that we, as humans, can not even see the true essence of our own world and our selfs, not if we are only using 5 senses to percieve it. It is when we look with our other "senses" that we begin to see the truth in things. So if we look with only our 5 senses then we will never find the truth. Instead we must look within and see with our 3rd eye it is only there that we see the truth. This is all unreal it is only our perception not what it actually is. The only thing that true is consiousness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The five senses only reveal an illusory world. Now we have to look into consciousness itself.


Hi Solosthere,

I would add the mind to the five senses - if we look with any of these we will not find the truth.

You are right, the only thing that is true is Consciousness.....but that is not quite the whole truth.

Dive into the Consciousness.
More will be revealed.
Jeanette

[Jenci]

[I may be taking a quantum leap here but what you have shared here reminds me of what I have found while trying to find my way in the "new age love and light" communities I have become a member of as I have been seeking new understandings and spiritual growth. I have heard over and over again at more than one site that a human cannot ascend without help because there will be no time before earth is uninhabitable, and that the only way one can ascend to a higher reality spiritually is to go into a GLF light ascention chamber, then either go off in spaceships to parts unknown or to go underground to escape earths wrath. I do not find that all all illuminating, it is downright control seeking. That reminds so much of what you said about "just add water". To me going into a chamber devised by a species or group of species unknown physically and tangibly by myself (but claimed to be known by others without any physical proof of existence) is definitely a short cut I would not be comfortable with, yet this concept is heavily pushed in a lot of new age communities. Also I have found that if you question their faith in the good aliens to the rescue of humanity scenario is that you get labeled as being in fear and somehow inferior because you do not believe in the scenario, which corresponds with what you said about being led in a direction and something being orchestrated that way for control of the masses. I am finding a LOT of new age beliefs that are being put in the spotlight are definitely beliefs that are controlling and restrictive in nature. As many of the beliefs espouse forgetting all your religions of the past, I find that they do not offer much more in the way of true guidance other than to create a religion out of new age beliefs, and those that question or disbelieve in what others espouse are somehow "doomed" for their lack of faith in the new age dogma. Just my observation on things, and what you have said truly resonates with how I feel about things as well.

Hi Marique

Unfortunately games are played by the PTB with motives known and motives unknown which lead people off the path to enlightenment into spiritual cul-de-sacs believing they have found what they were looking for.

All is not lost though.
Enlightenment is about the truth and the truth has to penetrate all aspects of the illusion for the individual to become enlightened. For many of us this means that over and over and over again we think we believe something to be true, only to find out it was another illusion created in our minds. As we discard one illusion, we will find another one in its place which will also need to be held up in the light of truth to be dissolved or discarded again.

This is our path to enlightenment - our work - and it is no quick fix but each time we do this, more of the Real is revealed to us.

Enlightenment is realising our true nature and that can only be found within us. It can't be found anywhere outside of us.
It's only found in the right here and the right now.
And it is found just as much in the pain and suffering as it is in the love and light.

Welcome to Avalon. :)
Jeanette

[Dorjezigzag]

It’s funny, I had a ‘feeling’ you were going to start a thread like this.(lol)


Instant 'enlightenment' does not exist!

No instant enlightenment does not exist, enlightenment is a concept that is out of time, so to encapsulate it in time is misleading, actually everyone has achieved enlightenment they have just not realised it in this ‘instant’.It is as incorrect as saying long worked and studied for enlightenment exists, time does not actually exist it is an illusion.



Instant 'enlightenment' does not exist...without previous work.
We would, however, prefer something easy..."Just add water"! (or... watered down)


Your use of The word ‘Work’ is interesting: Be carefull not to apply western concepts of ‘work’ and ‘work ethics’. When Buddha talked of work this was not sacrificial toil of the ascetic he tried that and saw that it did not ‘work’. The Buddha taught the middle way, the path of heart. I aways loved Christs- live life as a child.


So, we turn against all religions, accusing them of sex, scandals and eating babies!
We are the Smart New Righteous Generation, bringing in the new...?!

Actually the turning on the old religions is justified in many instances. Of course the sex abuses within the Catholic church must be exposed. You were probably aware in another thread that I was defending the Dalai Lama who of course is not evil.

Like the Catholic church the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism although it contains much knowledge has evolved into a system of control as a political as well as a spiritual system, one could argue the Dalai Lama in many ways has been a victim of this system.


Q Why are you suddenly trusting this new 'stuff '?
A Because you are supposed to!

The whole conceptialising of old and new actually does not exist, again I must empaphise time is an illusion. But in the 3D tick tock I can only speak for myself but I question everything no matter new or old. If I was to apply broad brush strokes and state anything new is NEW AGE rubbish then perhaps I may miss the jewel amongst the garbage.


“Go with your feelings! Whatever resonates with you! Trust only in your feelings! ” ...which have been put there by hidden powers...
This statement strikes me as paranoid . The suggestion that all ‘feeling’ is put there by higher powers is actually quite ridiculous. I ‘feel’ love to my son and protect him, do I not actually love him is that feeling put there by higher powers.
Feelings can lead people astray but often because in the logical world we live in today where people go to School ( yeah like a school of fish) they have lost a connection with there heart with its associated ability to truly understand the subtleties with feelings.
Do I consider the possibility of technology that can implant feelings, of course the same as there is possibly technology that can implant ‘thoughts’. The greater the awareness of the feeling ‘body’ the greater the ability to identify artificial feelings. As with the mind.
I would not really call it work but my feeling awareness has vastly improved this last year. Although this happens very much on an unconscious level I can tune into people and therefore have greater empathy, I guess the word I could use is resonate, i.e vibrate with them on the same frequency. Do I question this ability, of course I do but experience has shown me that it consistently works, I am not so important that some outer entity would be creating all these feelings.

This golden roof is the Maha Ati teachings.
I have had talks with Tibetan lamas about this: people are taking these teachings, and cherry picking the attractive bits to suit their agenda.

Have you really had talks with Tibetan ‘Lamas’. In the west where much of the original subtleties of the system have been lost in translation many teachers of the Dharma call themselves ‘Lamas’ actually very few are. Its the equivalent of my local priest calling himself the Bishop of London, actually one could argue it is even more disrespectful to the tradition, this is fraud.
Of course The term Lama has a greater connection with the Bon Shamanic origins of the Tibetan Buddhist system. The Tibetan Buddhist system is itself a cherry picked tradition, sourcing from many traditions. I would argue that religious traditions, like genetics once you start to aspire to purity,, preventing their evolution, things start to become inbred. A dog of mixed breeds is usually far more resistant to disease and is genetically stronger.

Was the Buddha or Jesus Christ part of any ‘old’ organised religious system. They were undoubtedly influenced by their respected cultural traditions but they preached something that was ‘new’. That was the power of their teachings but actually they were not new they just of that instant, today we live in a different instant, nothing is permanent!

[another bob]

As we discard one illusion, we will find another one in its place which will also need to be held up in the light of truth to be dissolved or discarded again.


The suffering of chasing mirages never ends. The only way to end it is simply to stop.

Likewise, the suffering of intellectual pursuits never ends. The only way to end it is simply to stop.

The suffering of accepting and rejecting never ends. The only way to end it is simply to stop.

Likewise, the suffering of proof and rebuttal never ends. The only way to end it is simply to stop.

~Namdrol


:yo:

[spiritguide]

In the process of knowing enlightenment, an instant is an EON! When unfolding, do it with nature (universe), for then the arrival will be worth the trip. Quiet contemplation is the whole hole! Just some thoughts shared out of the hole. IMHO

:peace:

[firstlook]

To choose or not to choose, that is the question. :)

One of my favorite movie scenes is of Christopher Plummer as doctor Parnassus in the film of basically the same name. One scene has him roaming a desert landscape tired and suffering. He comes upon a sign. He must continue to make a choices. Powerful imagery.

[Tony]

Work meaning perseverance, meaning continuing to practice, meaning merely resting in the natural state...or non state!

....then you can give up doing. Of course one can give up doing now and rest is a vacancy, meaning blankness, meaning oblivion...meaning ignorance.

Make your own choice ...!

[Tony]

@ Dorjezigzag



Have you really had talks with Tibetan ‘Lamas’. In the west where much of the original subtleties of the system have been lost in translation many teachers of the Dharma call themselves ‘Lamas’ actually very few are.

To be more precise, they were tulkus (reincarnated lamas, recognised from previous incarnations), and we happened to be discussing the fact the Dharma can only be destroyed from within.

I understand what you are saying: I use discrimination and choose my teachers carefully.

Tony

[nf857]

So, we turn against all religions, accusing them of sex, scandals and eating babies!
We are the Smart New Righteous Generation, bringing in the new...?!


I dont think anybody was suggesting religions were based on characters eating babies, this makes a mokery of other religions, also it does not sound like you at all? New age is new age thats what it is, you yourself are a part of that from your pespective and understandings.

Im sorry if ive ever offended you with asking questions, the reason i ask questions should be a compliment as i want to know more about it. If it didnt interest me i wouldnt bother asking the questions. I just think caution should be used when accessing higher realms-enlightment, as these can effect our thought forms, if the one consiousness entity is to be beleived, dont your question that one conciousness? Especially if it includes all the evil in the world as well.

Weve had evidence of these entities that do operate here in this dimension, serial killings etc However Santanism is another, who in the right mind would worship pure evil if it was not being affected by some of these entities?It promises gifts/power doesnt it? Probably because the world has treated them badly so they turn to methods of enlightment for help.

Exactly why i say their can't be 'One Consiousness' however i think the 'One Consiousness' idea works for the people who can reap the benefits from it. However in reality we still have to accept that there is EVIL, no human being is purely EVIL, even thouse that did PURE EVIL ACTS, have MENTAL PSYCHOSIS, which can be argued that MENTAL PSYCHOSIS is the EVIL!!!

If your of the christian faith that makes perfect sense as their our evil people and good people and anywhere inbetween. Salvation is the Christian way, however it is just a method of control like all others. If you learn to love 'Self' your in your own 'Ego' apparently not viewing the world at large. I know your model teaches how to transcend oneself from EGO, however your reacting in EGO now.

Dont let it affect you, your far better than that.


Perhaps I am at fault: having received such intensive teachings, I am writing them about them.
My wish was to convey a taste of them to others, who may never have had the opportunity to receive them and may then wish to go and find a source of authentic teachings themselves.
They are truly precious.
They are not for those who enjoy the hobby of comic book philosophising

Tony you are violating your teachings here, everything you said here is effecting my faith in you right now, please stop. Stop typyfying people as 'Comic Book Philosphising' you have just go on your previous video about 'Consiousness' & how you should not stick to conceptual type models to yourself or others. Your are in your Ego again saying pehaps you are at fault, you dont know have to worry about this do you? So long as you stick to your own beleives? Which are good/true? x

[Tarka the Duck]

Dear nf



I dont think anybody was suggesting religions were based on characters eating babies, this makes a mokery of other religions-

This does sound bizarre doesn't it?!
To put it into context, there has been a thread running on the forum for a few months, where allegations were made about the Dalai Lama being "the personification of evil" and accusing him of eating children...that is what Tony is referring to.

Kathie

[Dorjezigzag]

Don't tell me if I am being to nosy but....
Just out of interest who was it, I may have met them
wasn't Steven Seagal was it (lol)

@ Dorjezigzag



Have you really had talks with Tibetan ‘Lamas’. In the west where much of the original subtleties of the system have been lost in translation many teachers of the Dharma call themselves ‘Lamas’ actually very few are.

To be more precise, they were tulkus (reincarnated lamas, recognised from previous incarnations), and we happened to be discussing the fact the Dharma can only be destroyed from within.

I understand what you are saying: I use discrimination and choose my teachers carefully.

Tony

[nf857]

This does sound bizarre doesn't it?!
To put it into context, there has been a thread running on the forum for a few months, where allegations were made about the Dalai Lama being "the personification of evil" and accusing him of eating children...that is what Tony is referring to

Oh i see, well thats just peoples opnion isnt it? He should not be effected by this, however it only prooves, what i think about all religions, you go with a 'GOD' if that 'GOD' gets critisised for any reason, you start reacting to it from your 'EGO' that tells you your 'GOD' is the best one?

Know i know the 'Dalai Lama' was a REAL PERSON, so he was HUMAN, thereby upto peoples opnions of him just like the rest of us. I have no such opnion i didnt know the bloke, however from what i do know, his teachings were 'Good' not 'Evil' & i would have laughed at this statement & also wondered where they were coming from with it x

[another bob]

Work meaning perseverance, meaning continuing to practice, meaning merely resting in the natural state...or non state!

....then you can give up doing. Of course one can give up doing now and rest is a vacancy, meaning blankness, meaning oblivion...meaning ignorance.

Make your own choice ...!


Thanks for this discussion, Brother!

Everyone is always practicing. It's just that each one's practice will take them in their own unique direction. In reality, there is neither practice or practitioner. It's our stubborn fixation on identifying with being the do-er that got us into this entanglement in the first place.
Beyond that, we are simply being practiced. We are a miraculous vehicle for the only one there has ever been to practice its own infinite nature, which is the totality of the universal manifestation, beyond any human concept of Enlightenment. If we're not recognizing ourselves as That, then we still have work to do, although in reality nothing happens. No human has ever been enlightened. The full appreciation of that fact is itself enlightenment.

:yo:

[Jenci]

As we discard one illusion, we will find another one in its place which will also need to be held up in the light of truth to be dissolved or discarded again.


The suffering of chasing mirages never ends. The only way to end it is simply to stop.

Likewise, the suffering of intellectual pursuits never ends. The only way to end it is simply to stop.

The suffering of accepting and rejecting never ends. The only way to end it is simply to stop.

Likewise, the suffering of proof and rebuttal never ends. The only way to end it is simply to stop.

~Namdrol


:yo:

Simply to stop, is surrender for the ego. There's nothing attractive about that for ego.

Round and round it goes in the pursuit of the answer, just thinking anytime soon, this is going to be it, it will be satisfied.

But there is no satisfaction ever in the bottomless pit of endless seeking. The only thing that is in there is the wisdom of realising that.
With that wisdom, there is a letting go and then we can stop.
Jeanette

[nf857]

Q Why are you suddenly trusting this new 'stuff '?
A Because you are supposed to!



Hi Pineal, what would your answer be in answer to this question? Why is the Budda Techings something we should suddenly trust? I know its because it is our own work, however it is not just our own work, we are following guidelines arnt we by which a way to live our lives?Simply to stop, is surrender for the ego. There's nothing attractive about that for ego.

Round and round it goes in the pursuit of the answer, just thinking anytime soon, this is going to be it, it will be satisfied.


But there is no satisfaction ever in the bottomless pit of endless seeking. The only thing that is in there is the wisdom of realising that.
With that wisdom, there is a letting go and then we can stop.



Hi Jeanette,

Only me again, the annoying one lol with all the questions lol, i ask how does one stop or not how but what happens when somebody stops doing all this. As by following this rule it would not have helped me fight the persecution of myself when fighting the G.PS and Benefits Agency this year. I really thought this year was going to be a better one for me, it seems its the start of another really bad year for me. Im bed/bound housebound for most of the time, & could normally put all this to practice, however right now i cant due to the enormous things that are battling my existence x

[grapevine]

Yes, but it should be easier Tony. Not everyone has the intellect to be able to ponder the meaning of life along the lines of the thread. What about the rest of us . . .? Am I alone in feeling "left out"?

[firstlook]

Yes, but it should be easier Tony. Not everyone has the intellect to be able to ponder the meaning of life along the lines of the thread. What about the rest of us . . .? Am I alone in feeling "left out"?

How about this. Be like Water. Its the best advice I've ever heard and can be applied spiritually to any conflict or question IMO. :)

[Tony]

Q Why are you suddenly trusting this new 'stuff '?
A Because you are supposed to!



Hi Pineal, what would your answer be in answer to this question? Why is the Budda Techings something we should suddenly trust? I know its because it is our own work, however it is not just our own work, we are following guidelines arnt we by which a way to live our lives?

Well, quite a few beings have followed his teachings for a couple thousand years. It is logical path, and can be followed step by step. I like that! We can only trust, what makes sense to us, and what satisfys. This also depend on our personal temperament. For me it encompasses devotion and .....very importantly compassion.

This why I am so grateful to this forum!!!!

Bags of more affectIon,
Tony

[nf857]

Yes, but it should be easier Tony. Not everyone has the intellect to be able to ponder the meaning of life along the lines of the thread. What about the rest of us . . .? Am I alone in feeling "left out"?

I think this points out why the Budda Teaching is only useful for those who can live the way of the budda, really, it might be somewhat helpful in the western world in dealing with lifes stresses, however you can be truely enlightened because of your location, finances. How did the buddas support themselves with food/water/ etc? They got it for themselves,not like in this sector of the world where we have to work to keep a roof over our heads or in my case fight for your existence.

I also see your point that un-less you have the intellect to really get at its hidden deep meanings how are your supposed to do them yourself, well you leave that to the teacher to explain it more simplistically for a way to understand it, its also a great way for Pineal to keep learning and growing from it as well, as we are all individuals, so it has to accommadate everybody & only the really advanced can show each individual how it works x

[Tarka the Duck]

Yes, but it should be easier Tony. Not everyone has the intellect to be able to ponder the meaning of life along the lines of the thread. What about the rest of us . . .? Am I alone in feeling "left out"?

Aha! So it's not just me...nice to know there are others out there who sometimes read stuff and think, "What??" !! :confused:

Lots of love
Kathie :kiss:

[firstlook]

This just popped into my head. Not sure how it helps the conversation but.....

We are all choosing to discipline our forgiveness for not understanding each other in this thread. Its funny how we complicate this interaction.

[Tony]

Yes, but it should be easier Tony. Not everyone has the intellect to be able to ponder the meaning of life along the lines of the thread. What about the rest of us . . .? Am I alone in feeling "left out"?

Ah that's simple......watch the meditation video and do absolutely......nothing. Then merely be aware of that which aware of doing nothing. The complex on going chattering from me is to satisfy complex minds. us simple beings just meditate.


Simple inside...complex outside.

The complex is not needed at all, but sometime some minds need more confidence.

Tony

[nf857]

We are all choosing to discipline our forgiveness for not understanding each other in this thread. Its funny how we complicate this interaction

Excellent point, that is what we are all supposed to be doing, pineal has not got the time to answer everybody individually, we are supposed to be supporting each other, i came accross this complication on 'Does reality Exist' thread.

Ah that's simple......watch the meditation video and do absolutely......nothing. Then merely be aware of that which aware of doing nothing. The complex on going chattering from me is to satisfy complex minds. us simple beings just meditate.



Simple inside...complex outside.

The complex is not needed at all, but sometime some minds need more confidence.

Tony

Yes im definitly one of those beings, my partner is the polar opposite, he meditates everyday without realising it lol! Hes so laid-back, ive always been jealous of this, as it takes me a good book to relax, ironic really when a good book only makes my thoughts go round more lol, however this is just me, wont change me lol, i love wisdon/intellect, hopefully by my wisom/intellect i will reach its true meanings and become an adept lol! However im a great beleiver in simplyfying things, rather than complicating things, so the questions are there for me to simplyfy the answers for myself lol x

[Unified Serenity]

Instant 'enlightenment' does not exist...without previous work.
We would, however, prefer something easy..."Just add water"! (or... watered down)

So, we turn against all religions, accusing them of sex, scandals and eating babies!
We are the Smart New Righteous Generation, bringing in the new...?!

Q Why are you suddenly trusting this new 'stuff '?
A Because you are supposed to!

It's been orchestrated that way!

“Go with your feelings! Whatever resonates with you! Trust only in your feelings! ” ...which have been put there by hidden powers...

“No! You do not have to do any work! Just trust new improved instant 'I am source'! All you have to do is wait to be picked up!”...by the ones you trust ...but have never met...

There are hidden powers, who are selling you the golden roof, with no foundation to the building.
New, attractive, fun gurus tell you not to trust others but your inner self...your self-cherishing higher self!

Wake up people! You are really going to sleep!
It's being orchestrated that way!

This golden roof is the Maha Ati teachings.
I have had talks with Tibetan lamas about this: people are taking these teachings, and cherry picking the attractive bits to suit their agenda.
These teachings are about non-meditation and one's true nature.
But Maha Ati teachings are at the ninth level – and if we have not gone through the other levels, we will come to a sticky end...swamped in pride and lacking true compassion.
These teachings are absolutely true: I have received them and practised them, and I know how (and that) they work.

“Non-meditation” does not mean no meditation!
“We are pure essence” ...but we are still stirring the muddy water!
“Nothing is real” ...doesn't mean it won't have a effect on you!

"New, attractive, fun gurus tell it like it is!"
No, they do not...
This type of 'new' teaching is being heavily promoted, and certain individuals are being pushed into the public arena, encouraging the 'lazy path'.
Following that, you can be even more easily controlled.

Can you not see the subtle digging away of fundamental preliminary practices?

Once you have a firm foundation you can play music, paint freely, service your own computer......and service your own mind.

You ARE being got at...it's been orchestrated that way!

Perhaps I am at fault: having received such intensive teachings, I am writing them about them.
My wish was to convey a taste of them to others, who may never have had the opportunity to receive them and may then wish to go and find a source of authentic teachings themselves.
They are truly precious.
They are not for those who enjoy the hobby of comic book philosophising.

Thank you Tony. May I simply say from my heart, " I love you" and cherish your spirit, love and beauty.

Thank you,

Serenity

[nf857]

LOL, Tony, no we don't want arguments

There are many methods/techniques/teachings supposedly pointing towards enlightenment. Those which are real, are the ones which point away from the mind.


Those which point towards the mind, point away from enlightenment..... but they are seductive because they promise that the mind can be eased and soothed by mental techniques.

But ultimately even those mental techniques, when they fail, can point to enlightenment. When the illusion is seen, it has a habit of shattering the mind/ego and its beliefs.

Enlightenment is not about feeling better. It's about the Truth. So, who's up for the Truth?
Jeanette

Its great you have gleamed some of this, but what happens when Jeanette gets back into reality and that reality is questionable? How do you deal with matters that have to involve your Ego or your self? How do you deal with lifes everday problems, as the dont magically disappear do they? x

[nf857]

I am getting the feeling that enlightenment leads you first to look for the truth and as you see the truth ,or dont see, you later find that in this world there is NO truth. If all is unreal then how can any of it be true. We all know that we, as humans, can not even see the true essence of our own world and our selfs, not if we are only using 5 senses to percieve it. It is when we look with our other "senses" that we begin to see the truth in things. So if we look with only our 5 senses then we will never find the truth. Instead we must look within and see with our 3rd eye it is only there that we see the truth. This is all unreal it is only our perception not what it actually is. The only thing that true is consiousness!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good analysis, however we can't walk around with our 'third eyes' all the time can we? I would say ive been walking around with mine open/shut all through my life, as i have the 'gift' as some people like to refer to it, however i question if any intuitive knowledge that comes in turns out to be true, arnt i to challenge that knowledge really? It manifestated a bad thought in my mind that later turned out to be true? Not always, something the 'gift' produces nice manifestations as well, but it truely makes me wonder if all 'the one consiousness' is true, then my evil was playing out into manifestation in some way, ive never felt control of my gifts before, they just come and ago. i wonder if i was in control of them could i control the universe much better? x

[Tony]

@ Dorjezigzag



Don't tell me if I am being to nosy but....
Just out of interest who was it, I may have met them
wasn't Steven Seagal was it (lol)

Funnily enough................no!! :rolleyes:

The only thing I know about Steven Seagal is that he is nifty in the dojo and plays a bit of blues guitar

70XrqjNpbZ0

[nf857]

Well, quite a few beings have followed his teachings for a couple thousand years. It is logical path, and can be followed step by step. I like that! We can only trust, what makes sense to us, and what satisfys. This also depend on our personal temperament. For me it encompasses devotion and .....very importantly compassion.

This why I am so grateful to this forum!!!!

Bags of more affectIon,
Tony

Hi thanks Tony, well youve just worked its charmed on me lol with the bags of more affection lol! Yes it makes logical sense to me, i would say it already does that for me as ive always been compassionate and devoted- the pefect lover for anybody lol! Its the faith thing i still have issues with, for good reason, right now im fighting persecution of myself, fighting to survive, fighting to be in existence because of the corruption affecting me and my life in a very big way, right now, Its taught me not to trust the western medical world, however i still need money to live off, so im still having to fight for my rights lol x

[Jenci]

Yes, but it should be easier Tony. Not everyone has the intellect to be able to ponder the meaning of life along the lines of the thread. What about the rest of us . . .? Am I alone in feeling "left out"?

Hi Windmill,

Enlightenment is about unlearning everything we ever knew, so intellect is not necessary for this.....if you get what I mean, lol.

Where to start in practical terms? Just simply stop for a moment and just observe what is going on.
Notice your mind.
It's likely there will be a train of thoughts. If you watch, the thoughts will be coming and going.
There's no need to do anything about them. Perhaps you are thinking about more than one thing. Minds are very good at this and can juggle a few balls up in the air at any one time.

When you have a good sense of what is going on with your mind, then ask this question:-
What is it, that is aware of my mind?

If you can observe your mind, then what observes it, cannot be the mind.

So what is this Awareness?
Shift your attention from observing your mind and thoughts around to what is observing them.
What do you notice now?

This is just a place to start. Just a suggestion. :)
Jeanette

[nf857]

karmic connections at work! You probably stood on me when I was a beetle and you were an allosaurus...
We rub shoulders for a while and then move on.



Love this, lol, so i can stop worrying about my horrible G.PS's & this nasty corruption, as the ones that did it might come back as flies in their next lives and be easily swatted lol x

[nf857]

So what is this Awareness?
Shift your attention from observing your mind and thoughts around to what is observing them.
What do you notice now?



You realise nothing is observing them lol! We are in a matrix only Neo can choose from going back to his loved one or not.....i choose Neo's path lol in a theatrical sense lol!

However The Matrix was not Real just an idea! An idea sprung about from something......

Makes you think doesnt it, if The Matrix was Awareness, we are beings living in the 3rd dimension of awareness, however there are very many others to go up lol, what happens to the physical body when you come down again? Only what you choose with your mind to happen, as when Neo gets injured because he expected he would, it materialised into being because of his expectation that it would, like being able to bend spoons, its not about seeing the spoon but erasing all the expectations of a spoon, thereby if you stop expecting you can't bend a spoon, you just might be able to bend it, Uri Geller could Bend Spoons Couldnt he? lol x

[another bob]

So what is this Awareness? Shift your attention from observing your mind and thoughts around to what is observing them. What do you notice now?

You realise nothing is observing them lol!

Greetings, Friend!

No, it is no mere nothingness. It's just that you have not been able to grant it sufficient enough attention for it to reveal itself for what it truly is. For that, the necessary "joriki", or power of one-pointed concentration, is generally required, and it's only gained through sincere and persistent discipline. Otherwise, the mind will be like a leaf blown about by the winds of futile speculation and second-hand opinion, never recognizing its own source.

:yo:

[gs_powered]

However The Matrix was not Real just an idea! An idea sprung about from something......

IMO, sometimes the "reality" that we perceive is a lot more unrealistic that the concept presented in that particular movie... and yet, the truth behind all is still an idea, sprung about from something.

[marique3652]

Thank you Jeanette for welcoming me to Avalon. I am reading like mad and learning so much here and enjoying this forum very much. I could not agree more with you about enlightenment is realizing our true nature and that can only be found within ourselves. Some one can not hand it to us on a platter, it is a personal journey. I also agree that it is found just as much in suffering and pain as it is in love and light. I truly resonate with that so very very much, because I think I have learned more through my difficult challenges and situations that were extremely difficult to get through than anything else. Spirituality is not a one size fits all, but that is a good thing because not all people are the same. We have to explore all the avenues that will benefit us, and like you say we can "find it" many times only to realize "no that is not quite it" and that is ok, it is a joyous journey. I am really enjoying it here on this forum, I like the diversity and free sharing of ideas here and I seem to see less labeling and that is really so refreshing.

[truthseekerdan]

Just wanted to add 'my truth' in here my friend Tony Pie...

There is no such thing as "enlightenment", because it's just a mind (ego/dualistic) concept. Notice that the word itself ends in "ment" which means "mind" in Latin. Therefore "enlighten-ment", actually has the meaning to illuminate or free the mind from enslavement such as religions, concepts, beliefs, etc., and connect one to its true spiritual-self (non-dualism) found within the heart.

Much Love ~ Dan

[nf857]

There is no such thing as "enlightenment", because it's just a mind (ego/dualistic) concept. Notice that the word itself ends in "ment" which means "mind" in Latin. Therefore "enlighten-ment", actually has the meaning to illuminate or free the mind from enslavement such as religions, concepts, beliefs, etc., and connect one to its true spiritual-self (non-dualism) found within the heart.

Much Love ~ Dan

So glad somebody is on the same page as me. Enlightment does not exist, it just help you to make sense of the world or 'self'. No matter how much you 'transcend', if you still are still here in existence you are part of this 'duality' not part of a 'one consiousness'. This duality can be representative of evil/good, black/white, etc etc. Once you realise you have many qualities, many colours, many personality traits & use them for 'good' use only you are half-way in beating the 'duality' that resides in you. You become a 'whole' being. This involves constantly looking 'within', what is your path? What friends you have in life? Etc Etc. There is nothing wrong with 'Ego', 'Ego' helps you to discern, without 'discernment' you are walking into 'No Man's Land' & far away from 'Reality'. If you want to permantly stay in 'no man's land' you would, if you dont' you 'ego' tells you, come back again, there is still more work to be done here.

It would be lovely to just meditate all day, & listen to philosphical debate, however this does not teach you to be self-aware not does it teach to be responsible for 'self' or others. Discernment is key to realising your 'true potential', however this is not enlightenment, this being just more 'aware' of 'self' or 'ego'. Its how you choose to use 'self' or 'ego', you can let people be themselves and accept people for the way they are, & not try & change somebody elses viewpoint, you can share ideas, however you can't fight that which is already 'realised', you can ignore the trickery of what is 'realised' though, the things you think u know but dont.

Its far better to try and help people, than bury your head in the sand & say ah well its not my business, im only going to look after 'myself'. I was not brought here to be 'selfish', if im a slave to the system, its only the ones outside of me 'saying i am', i dont beleive im a 'slave' to anybody but myself, i choose to do the things i do, i choose to act the way i act, i choose to say the things i say. Nobody else. However you have to be constantly aware of these actions, & their effects on the rest of the world, people, animals, fauna etc! We all have a place in this world, nobody is better than another, we are all human, we are all on 'one level'. Dalai Lama was no better or worse than him, he choose to 'manifest' his reality, & it has a massive effect on everybody. It teaches good things, however only you are responsible in how you choose to use it. Do not call it 'enlightment' as it does not exist. Its like 'get with the program' you can go round the houses, however 'actions' speak louder than 'words'.

Its what we do, if we stop 'doing' we become 'neutral' again, rather than 'good' x

[Tony]

My dream-like form, appeared to dream-like beings, to show them the dream-like path, which leads to dream-like enlightenment.