Astral travel.

[Tony]

Astral travel.

Now some of you are definitely not going to like this: please remember it is from a ignorant person's point of view...someone has never done it. Well, not in this life!

There are two aspects here: the descriptions from those who claim astral travel, and those descriptions from in the Bardo (periods after death, before rebirth). Again I cannot remember bardo experiences, but had very disturbing dreams when I was young.

Both these aspects describe the same thing, and this is in itself interesting - beiing able to travel anywhere unimpeded. From what I have read, most beings are blown around by karma in the bardo, without any control. So we end up where karma blows us, due to previous intentions.

The problem I have is that when people claim to astral travel - it always sounds so mundane!
They never ever come back with knowledge. If they did, it would be worth investigating...

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.

If you can actually astral travel, please go to a Buddha realm and ask questions and bring back some authentic teachings, so we can all benefit!

Please enlighten me,
Tony

[Anchor]

How about a nice big "what-ev-er" to Astral Travel.

Siddhi's are distractions too!

[GaelVictor]

I did have OBE's when i was 9-13 years old, but i never seemed to get very far, as i encountered a small weird looking gatekeeper who ''tickled'' me to see if i would show emotion.
Sometimes i would pass the test and i would then move on to the next level but soon after that found myself falling through a brown cloud, a hollow pipe, back into my body and was then wide awake and relaxed.
If i didn't pass, i would find myself chased by a nasty shadowy entity and couldn't move away fast enough. That is; if i made a hard effort i would move like melasses, if i let go on the other hand, i could make a clean getaway. I would wake up very scared then.

That's all the conscious astral travel i made, and i can assure you, it felt very real.

[Referee]

I did have 2 experiences with this. I had a bardo pre-life experience which I remember. I was looking down on the earth from above and I was given choices on lives to live. I would get a small glimpse of a life and I had the option to select it in a way before someone else, another soul, did. I can not remeber exactly where I was just above the earth looking through a window of sorts. I remember a voice telling me you haven't been out there in a while.....foggy......I remember watching a few possible lives and then I saw one that peaked my interest.............I remember a voice telling me that is a difficult life...............The next thing I knew I was in the womb..................then the bright and deafining birth.

This is a very REAL memory for me This is the first time I have ever shared this.

My other experience was during a sugery I had as a young boy 6-7 (I had several surgeries)

I left my body and went upwards spining through the celling it was the old tile type celling white square panels with many diferent small holes in it placed randomly, and textured. I remember because I went right through one hole up and out. I reemeber looking back at myself on the operating table..............The next thing I knew I was surounded by people I knew but didn't know..Familiar faces. I felt warmth and love and a voice told me you have to go back you have a long way to go...... and I gently floated back into my body in a different room. I remember wondering how I found my body since it had moved............I then woke up in a recovery room.

This is a VERY REAL memory as well.

I recently had sugery on my knee and was scared to go under, fearing what judgments would be made of my life etc....but nothing no experience just woke up later in the recovery room. No memory of anything.

Warm Regards,

Referee

[joedjemal]

I've never achieved astral travel in the way that most describe it. What I have done is see people and places whilst meditating although I seem to have little control over what I'm looking at (with one or two notable exceptions when I visited a forest and when I wanted to see a tropical beach and found myself in the middle of a major storm )

I have yet to get any useful information out of it although I once watched the two ex presidents Bush and the ex president Clinton sitting laughing and joking together for a few seconds.

I have yet to have any confirmation that I've observed anything real although the imagery I've seen has been immersive and three dimensional, much more real than dreaming.

I wouldn't necessarily dismiss it out of hand, it seems to have potential as a learning tool, control seems quite difficult to achieve though and I wouldn't regard it as an end in itself, it seems to be a by product of spiritual learning.

[CeltMan]

Hi Tony

A couple of things that I 'know' about astral Travel

1) there is suposed to be a 'silver cord' which attaches itself to the body-spirit.

This must remain attached during travel, if broken, the soul/spirit essence cannot return to body, & body will die

There was a very interesting story, written by Dennis Wheatley, called 'The Ka (spirit)of Gifford Hilary'

Although I have personnaly never been tempted to try this, don't fancy being detached form body & dying prematurely!...lol

(This particular incarnation has been difficult enough, wouldn't wish to have to 'repeat it again'!!)

2) However I did work with a fellow who had become quite experienced at astral travel.
He(Dave) was becoming rapidly blind. I was assigned to take over his work duties.
I was reading above book at time, hence his confiding in me.

Quote: "At first it was by accident. Frightened me. then I started to control it, first up on ceiling, then further away."

Last time I spoke with him, a few months later, he had been 'travelling' down from Norwich, to London, to 'look at his medical notes & see what they were discussing as his prognosis.'

I see your point, that if one could command such a 'gift/ability' one might use it for more 'enlightened endevours'?

Along a similar theme, I do have experience of 'commanding/mastering' another esoteric ability. Chi. This was via TaeKwando, initially.

It was only a few years later that I became aware of aplying this same ability/skill/gift, to healing.

I believe I read Whitefeather saying that he astrally projects/travels.

Best of luck on your quest.

[Borden]

Hi pie'n'eal,

I do see your point. I've astral projected many times, and I've verified it to the complete satisfaction of myself and people around me. I'm way past the wondering if it was a dream phase. However, it is a phenomenon in the same broad, mysterious area as dreams. What are dreams? What is reality?

The first time I managed it with full lucidity was a life changing experience, but that's not to say I understand it or what it's for! I can tell you that it left me with a profound sense that we are so much more than we think. I can also tell you that while out of the bod, I felt ... very different. 'Felt' being the operative word. Please consider ... the body is the cause (or manifestation perhaps?) of so many of the distractions we suffer.

My first time was sensational (to me) and short-lived. I went straight through a wall, saw something unusual in the person next door's bedroom (verified later, to his astonishment), saw the roof of my place for the first time, rose a few hundred feet in the night sky, and then did my Superman bit. About a mile and a half at terrific speed, and straight into an electricity sub-station, haha. I later learned that this often happens and ends the experience, and to stay away from those places.

Here's the bit you may be more interested in than the Superman stuff.

I was alone in a strange, twilight version of the reality I'm used to ... but it didn't matter.
I was naked ... but it didn't matter.
I was totally unprepared for the event I had tried so hard to achieve ... but it didn't matter.

I noticed - very powerfully - that all the background 'distraction' was just not there. Maybe this is because when out of the bod you're not prone to the million and one distractions of the body. It became very, very clear to me that night that there is a 'me' who feels no fear. Fear is a product of nerves and chemicals and temperature and so forth - all jangling and tangled up in this living system of pumps and processes that distracts us so much.

So it seems to me that by leaving the body, one can experience that state which I assume deep meditation achieves. That version of 'self' is worth the experience alone. Please consider that aspect of it.

Here's a funny thing though ... whatever goals you have before projecting, they usually vanish once you're out of the bod. You will often go to wherever you wanted to go, but find yourself utterly disinterested in it once there. I've even heard people talk about wanting to have astral sex, and I've just rolled my eyes. There's no biology in the astral! Oh, I have a body, which appears silvery, moonlit, and moves like my physical body. I assume I have astral ... er ... equipment, not that I remember ever checking, but all those drives and responses that we suffer in the physical are just not present.

It is a serene, fearless, undistracted state. I can't state this powerfully enough to convey it.

I don't know what it's for. I don't know what it means. It doesn't even prove life after death really. It could be just a by-product of the physical body and consciousness, which is so little understood. That's not my feeling, but I have to accept that argument if people want to make it, because I can't prove anything otherwise. All I have been able to prove - to myself and others - is that we can leave our physical bodies and witness things in the physical world as well as in other realms.

I would love you to do it, because maybe you would visit a Buddha realm! Or maybe you just wouldn't feel whatever need once out of your bod for a little jaunt. I think the only reason I did my Superman bit was because of a very deeply cherished longing I had held for so long. Ever since a certain Richard Donner film I saw as a little boy caused a strange reaction in me, and I was outraged and appalled that I couldn't fly. It felt so wrong and unjust, and that stayed with me. So maybe those deeply held desires transcend the physical, and maybe if you astral projected you would go somewhere really interesting and be able to tell us about it. I would be all ears, believe me. And if you want any tips on how to do it I can certainly give you those.

I've had many experiences that were mundane, and not mundane. I'm not going to start detailing them in your thread, but I can tell you the experience will give you a new perspective on your existence. Well, that's how it is for me anyway so I assume it's the same for everybody. If nothing else, it shows you in a profound way that you are more than your physical focus.

Joedjemal is so right too, control is difficult to achieve, but I have a strong feeling that this is because the desire for control we feel as physical entities is the mistake, and whatever self we are on the astral, it speaks a different language.

Best wishes, and thanks for an interesting question.

Borden

[Wind]

I never have had a lucid dream nor have I done astral travel. And I can assure you that I have tried many, many times. I wonder what is blocking my astral travel? Is it my mind? Because I really would want to try it. I would want to get out of this body consciously, even for a while. I want to feel that sensation! Because it has been such a long time since I have experienced that.

[Nerge]

I've attempted to astral project a few times but had no real success so far; often reach the point of concious relaxation and certain body sensations, like vibrations etc that I've often read appear before projecting. Many seem to say this is quite common and that some block prevents many people going beyond this point at first, perhaps a subconcious fear of letting go.

If nothing else, perhaps once this is achieved (as mentioned above) it helps us to persoanlly realise we're much more than what is commonly accepted - at least in mainstream science.

Here's an interesting thread started by Jake on the subject; I recommend reading his book to 'The Book of Jacob' which goes into the subject in detail regarding his own experiences: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?26845-The-Out-of-Body-Experience

If Borden or anyone else has any tips on astral projecting for a beginner I'd love to see them. :)

[Kindred]

Here's somebody who Did 'bring back knowledge'... Itzhak Bentov. This video has an interview conducted in 1978. He died in a plane crash in 1980. Also, after the '78 interview, there's an Extensive presentation given by his wife, sometime after his death. An astounding breadth and depth of knowledge, particularly given the timeframe. 1:47:56 long, but well worth it!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVt1ErkLVMU&list=PL5A71F5F9459EAEBF&index=37&feature=plpp_video

In Unity and Peace

[Jenci]

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.



I'm happy to report, Tony, that I am a complete failure as far as astral travel is concerned. :cool:

I am stuck here and now and this is all I have to go on to realise my true nature.

What knowledge I have discovered is that I can only be realised here now and never 'out there' or 'some place else'.

Jeanette

[Sebastion]

Actually Tony, I am quite astonished and amazed that you are unaware of this because I always "assumed" that that was part and parcel of Budhist philosophy/teachings, etc. Goes to show you how much I know about that religion.

I concur with Borden in the majority of his post. Astral traveling was as natural to me as a child as eating, breathing. Most people do it but it's been programmed out by their belief systems-ever being told that your just dreaming, it's your imagination, disregard, dismiss, etc.

Can I prove it? Nope! You must prove it to yourself, by yourself by allowing it within. Any attempts you make within yourself to disprove it will only further your inability to do so. It's very subtle I can assure you. The "spirit essence" that you are can be used/is used to seek the "greater Spirit" of all that IS. One must awaken to it as it is part and parcel of the alone journey.

[jackovesk]

Unfortunately my teacher taught me, that information is solely for the person who recieves it....

Sorry...:neo:

[Tony]

...and the point is?

What did you gain from it? Apart from getting giddy!

[jackovesk]

...and the point is?

What did you gain from it? Apart from getting giddy!

Many things (pie'n'eal), my only 'Tip' is to make sure you know how to (Protect) yourself out there..!

[GaelVictor]

Many things (pie'n'eal), my only 'Tip' is to make sure you know how to (Protect) yourself out there..!


bladiebla etc etc

[PurpleLama]

What's the difference in meditation and oob experience, as you see it, Mr. Tony?

[Tarka the Duck]

@ Sebastion


Actually Tony, I am quite astonished and amazed that you are unaware of this because I always "assumed" that that was part and parcel of Budhist philosophy/teachings, etc. Goes to show you how much I know about that religion.


There is the teaching of Phowa, which is the transference of consciousness as a preparation for the death process.
I wouldn't say it was "part and parcel" of Buddhist teachings: it's just one of several ways in which Buddhists can practise for death.

VA0n2bEnaN8

[Sebastion]

Thank you Tarka,as this video is further substantiation for what I have previously said! Now I would ask, why do you have to wait until your almost dead to do that?

[Borden]

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.



I'm happy to report, Tony, that I am a complete failure as far as astral travel is concerned. :cool:

I am stuck here and now and this is all I have to go on to realise my true nature.

What knowledge I have discovered is that I can only be realised here now and never 'out there' or 'some place else'.

Jeanette

Jenci,

what is here and now? In my experience meditative states strip away the illusion of here and now to some extent. Even as you read the previous sentence it was not an authentic 'now'. I see the moment to be illusory. And if the moment is illusory, then deeper perception must abandon the moment and recognise that it and everything seen from its contrived position is an illusion.

There is a 'super-position' of consciousness, in my opinion. Anything that can show us that is beneficial to those seeking enlightenment. Astral projection may not be the answer to everything, but it is something that shows you a 'self' completely outside of the normal, distraction ridden state.

On the astral, as I said, I have experienced a 'state of mind' that I have been able to remember and translate to this 'reality', to an extent. It has helped me enormously. The Taoist detachment I have been able to evoke (at times) is something that astral projection has helped me with enormously.

I am not someone who believes that we are in this illusion simply to get out of this illusion. This illusion has a purpose, and I believe that purpose is not simply to transcend this illusion, but to fully understand what it is and why we are creating it.

As far as I am concerned, there is no 'out there' or 'some place else'. You are everything and everything is you. To focus your experience and therefore your understanding on everything you see and feel through one aspect of self may be a useful pursuit, I don't know. I'm not having the experience of being you. I do know that astral projection and lucid dreaming have shown me valuable things about my perception, and about my 'self'.

Borden

[9eagle9]

Astral travel is over rated. It's neither good nor bad. It just is what it is.

Not everything we do comes with a attachment of collective importance, and i do travel frequently but I've never come back with some overwhelming truth that pertained to anyone but me. It's more like a convience that I might miss if stopped doing it but its not like my spiritual life requires it. I often times leave my body when I'm partially awake and dip up and down the hallway and stick my head through the roof. And I've had people get angry at me--calling if frivolous-- for 'wasting' my gift happy assholing around like that. I don't consider it a gift , rather more like a sort of quirk. That is about the same as judging me for lolling in a pool on a summer day. And if it's MY gift, I should be able to do as I please with it....lol

When we try to do it, typically we create so much resistance in the 'trying' that we fail to do it. Personally I learned how to it at will by...staying up way too late one night, getting up way to early the next day, having a few of cups of strong coffee and then attempting to go back to sleep. Too tired to stay all the way awake, and too much caffeine to go all the way asleep, I just slid right out. There are more accessible ways to attempt to do this. My method was not very mystical and opened me up to a lot arguments to people who have beef against caffeine, but some people related that this way, even lacking in mysticism made it more accessible for them. The astral body doesn't care about caffeine one way or the other. Most self intuitive discoveries and information are not planned or directed --they come in by accident--synchronicity.

A lot of astral experts say that the mentally and emotionally challenged shouldn't attempt it and I'm thinking, 'Yeah well whose going to prevent it?" Just because you say so they won't? I notice the allegedly mentally ill spend a good portion of their time not being present. So much for the expert advice.

What astral travel has shown me ...is when I'm out there's no judgements, no directions, no thinking "I should do this." Or going here is bad or going here is good." Complete absence of 'the shoulds', and other judgements. When I come back my mind will attempt to put judgements on the excursion like....Why did you just fly around town instead of going to Rome or something"

That is really a sort of state of actual freedom. and absence of judgement. The consciousness is disengaged, left behind and we are just aware. We have conscious recall of the event, but the consciousness is not present during the episodes. And one has an entirely different perspective of the world when the consciousness is not present.

I have often attempted to plan these excursions and as equally as often found once I was out , the plan lost all importance and intent for me. My mind had created the importance, and leaving the mind behind the plan was no longer important. That is a very free feeling.

if one wants to experience this state by all means but it something we can learn to do without 'going out'. It's a period of being unfettered by the mind and the body and I can't see any purpose that it serves other than a personal level. And if you have with fun with it , that's okay, go stick your head through the roof and look at the stars. And if you're not doing it , or at least don't have the recall of it, it doesn't show or prove anything one way or the other.

[Sebastion]

Ahh....Borden, I could not have said it better then you have! Many thanks....

[Tarka the Duck]

Thank you Tarka,as this video is further substantiation for what I have previously said! Now I would ask, why do you have to wait until your almost dead to do that?

For Buddhists, the moment of death is very important as it will help determine the next incarnation. That is why they practise Phowa (I have never done a Phowa retreat).
It's not a matter of "having to wait" !
It is one of the moments of potential enlightenment during the death process.
The transference/ejection of consciousness involves complex visualisations, and is considered to be a serious matter, involving commitment to the altruistic attitude and a dedication of merit. It's not seen as a "fun experience" for the individual ;) !
It doesn't seem to marry up with the experiences I have read of astral travel here, but as I'm not a practitioner of this, I can't say for sure.
Kathie

[9eagle9]

Many druids were jumpers and planned their next lives while alive and well in this life well beyond before the point of physical death.

Think about how the Dali Lama's are found,I'm not sure they express that in a obviated way because it's not a function of consciousness to do this but its similar to what the druids expressed.

[geoff]

Hi Tony I am very surprised that you have never experienced astral travel, I am sure with the right technique you could experience it and find out the answers to your questions for yourself. There are some very simple techniques, and its really not so difficult. Out of body experiences while meditating are a mind blower! My first experience was when I was four or five years old, its a great story but I won't bore you with it now. Then I had regular experiences from the age of twelve, I was lying in bed relaxing before sleep and was actually trying to levitate at the time, how the young mind works! When rather unexpectedly I found myself outside in the street, met a ghost and ended up flying; wow! what a feeling. What does it teach you? Well at such a young age I reasoned that if your conciousness can exist independently of the body, then why not after death? I lost my fear of death, and it opened my mind to lots of other possibilities. At the time I was an atheist and strange enough continued to be for many years.
The astral plane is an emotional realm, an emotional reality. I taught myself meditation, and through meditation have had obe's of a different nature, I suppose theosophists would describe as on a mental plane, no body, existence as a ball of exploding light, complete bliss, love, expansion through all of time, the universe. How do you put in to mere words an experience like that! And I have had others, maybe one day I will share, but this forum is too public and experiences are very personal.
Meditation can be a tool for lots of things, have you ever thought about using it to open the third eye? I will leave now before I begin to sound like a nutter.
Respect Geoff p.s thanks for the videos.

[Tony]

What's the difference in meditation and oob experience, as you see it, Mr. Tony?

As I said in the OP, I haven't had experience of astral projection, and so I can't really compare the two.
Meditation is about being here, now.
I don't know about going out of the body and practising somewhere else. Perhaps it's possible but as yet no one has come back with any wisdom to share with others – it seems to be merely a personal experience.

I do a yidam practice, which entails a preparation for death and which has the potential of going through stages of enlightenment at death. This is according to the tradition that I follow, and it's only one method (recognition of one's true nature is of paramount importance – everything else is just a projection).

There is an outside possibility – and some won't like this – that, during meditation, one can drift into a dreamy state, or even fall asleep, and these experiences could come from here. I hope I don't offend anyone by saying that (it does seem all too easy to do that).

I am open to more enlightened information: it's important to have more investigation than speculation ;) !

Tony

[Sebastion]

Astral traveling alone will not marry up because the astral world is of a lower frequency. Consciousness is electrical in nature which implies frequency. Higher thought exists within higher frequencies. One must take the next step beyond astral traveling and meditation/contemplation works wonders to attain these elevated states, frequencies, dimensions. But it takes purity of intent and a very, very sincere trust in spirit. Spirit will guide one every step of the way. As I have previously stated, the spirit can be used to seek spirit. Mind cannot be used to seek mind, for in a very real way, that is using god to seek god, using mind to grasp mind. I have imparted to you that which I have found for myself and myself alone as the truth. Consider it for what it is or dismiss it, as the choice is entirely up to you.

[Tony]

Astral traveling alone will not marry up because the astral world is of a lower frequency. Consciousness is electrical in nature which implies frequency. Higher thought exists within higher frequencies. One must take the next step beyond astral traveling and meditation/contemplation works wonders to attain these elevated states, frequencies, dimensions. But it takes purity of intent and a very, very sincere trust in spirit. Spirit will guide one every step of the way. As I have previously stated, the spirit can be used to seek spirit. Mind cannot be used to seek mind, for in a very real way, that is using god to seek god, using mind to grasp mind. I have imparted to you that which I have found for myself and myself alone as the truth. Consider it for what it is or dismiss it, as the choice is entirely up to you.




.Hello Sebastion,

In Tibetan Buddhism, monks and nuns refrain from sexual activity, to conserve certain energies within the body called 'Tigle'. This is used at the moment of death, to help recognise their true nature. To do this one has to be proudly dedicated, to refined empowerments.

What is taught on this matter is not a personal quest, it is done for the benefit of all sentient beings. As lay people we to can achieve this, but it takes much practice and dedication.

As Anchor said, siddhis can also be a distraction. A siddhi is the development of certain powers. They are an indication of progress, but have to be dropped, or pride will develop instead!!!!

And as we all know ...pride goes before a fall.

This why I am asking this question: What is the benefit and wisdom of astral travel?


Yours,
Tony

[Borden]

What's the difference in meditation and oob experience, as you see it, Mr. Tony?

As I said in the OP, I haven't had experience of astral projection, and so I can't really compare the two.
Meditation is about being here, now.
I don't know about going out of the body and practising somewhere else. Perhaps it's possible but as yet no one has come back with any wisdom to share with others – it seems to be merely a personal experience.

I do a yidam practice, which entails a preparation for death and which has the potential of going through stages of enlightenment at death. This is according to the tradition that I follow, and it's only one method (recognition of one's true nature is of paramount importance – everything else is just a projection).

There is an outside possibility – and some won't like this – that, during meditation, one can drift into a dreamy state, or even fall asleep, and these experiences could come from here. I hope I don't offend anyone by saying that (it does seem all too easy to do that).

I am open to more enlightened information: it's important to have more investigation than speculation ;) !

Tony

You're right ... I don't like that! Not because I take offense but because I wish I could just simply prove to you what I'm talking about! It takes a lot more than that to offend me, haha. You are someone clearly pursuing deeper understanding of yourself and this reality, as am I in my own ways, so it's rather anoying that I can't just easily share this thing that's been useful for me.

I completely understand your reasonable suspicion that astral projection might be a dream or something imagined. And as I've said several times on this forum, it's unreasonable to relate extraordinary experiences without proof and expect people to just take you at your word. I've demonstrated to several people in my life that this is a real phenomenon, in ways they could not argue away. It was very simple ... I saw things while out of my bod that I could not have otherwise seen, and I told them. However, like I said, I'm no adept who can do this every time or be in total control of it. If I were, I would simply project, then tell you what colour shirt you're wearing or something, haha.

People have already posted some good information here on how to do it, but some of those books are a bit of a slog to be honest, and they also set up barriers in the mind, I feel. I personally believe that astral projection is something natural to us that we have forgotten, and that it should not be treated as some mystical thing any more than life itself is a mystical thing. Which it is of course.

Once you've done it a few times, it no longer holds that sense of the impossible and rarified, and it becomes more "Oh yeah, I know this, here we go then". Like anything really. That's not to say it isn't wonderful and mysterious and all those things, but so is consciousness itself. So many subjects are talked about with a lot of grand, pretentious guff, and this is one I happen to know about. That kind of talk makes it more and more inaccessible to those attempting to do it. I like the way 9eagle9 describes it.

Do you want to experience it? Have you tried? Because I reckon the only way you'll be able to explore it and decide for yourself whether it's of merit or good for your journey is by doing it. Speculation won't help, and will only make it seem more inaccessible. It's not ... you just have to get over that hurdle. Quite honestly I'd love to hear your thoughts on it having experienced it for yourself. I'd be fascinated to hear your take on something I've experienced myself.

If you'd like any tips, if you'd like to hear the methods I eventually found that work for me, I'm happy to tell you - either here or privately. I think I can describe what to do in a more down to earth (and short!) way than a lot of the books that I'm sure have merit, but I personally find off-putting for the reasons mentioned above,

best wishes,

Borden

[Sebastion]

Simple enough Tony. Astral traveling is evidence enough that existence beyond the physical is evident. If one concludes this for oneself as having validity, then begins to expand beyond it in awareness, progress is made into greater awareness. This is where the sacred trust in spirit enters in. If you would seek to arrive at an intellectual understanding of "spirit", sorry but it will never happen or good luck in that attempt.

[Mark]

Hi Tony!

I think a lot of people mistake lucid dreaming for astral traveling. A lot of people. I've had lots of lucid dreams. Only one encounter that I would call astral traveling without qualification. I have also recognized that one instance as bi-location. I also think that it is a form of Siddhi and, therefore, unnecessary and a distraction to the extent that possessing the ability to access the deeper capabilities of the spirit within the physical realm is a temptation to apply those powers in the accumulation of greater material rewards. If employed purely in the search for knowledge it can serve a higher purpose, but if done just for thrill seeking, it can be problematic, like any other psychic gift.

[geoff]

.Hello Sebastion,



A siddhi is the development of certain powers. They are an indication of progress, but have to be dropped, or pride will develop instead!!!!

And as we all know ...pride goes before a fall.

Meditation inevitably leads to developng powers, its a side effect. The path is full of distractions, thats why you keep detached and don't indulge. Purity of intent as Sebastian says. As for falling asleep, keep your eyes half open, meditation is not sleeping, its total awareness' you don't allow yourself to drift into sleep! You become aware. Lucid dreaming and astral projection are related, but usually with an astral experience, you are always totally aware, hyper aware, from the moment you project to the moment you return

[minkton]

I'm reading FAR JOURNEYS by Robert Monroe right now. very impressed with the profound insights into humanity that he is achieving via his trips out. He encounters wise teachers who show him all manner of deep experiences which bring him to depth compassion, I think. One of the phenomena he experiences shows him very quickly the way through lust and out the other side again, he loses his attachment super fast. His felt experience of humanity from a wider, higher, perspective is like a crash course in non - identification with the moment.

As a school of learning, it seems to be wondrous. The possibilities are endless if one has the heart and openness to receive them, it seems.

[joedjemal]

It's definitely more than lucid dreaming, I can do that too and it's a completely different experience. It's a different sort of sight and you have to be completely conscious and aware and in my experience unthinking as well, for me the first manifestations of it were seeing the colours of qi whilst doing qi gong exercises. (They look like light put through a dichroic filter or laser light, monochromatic the colour you see depends on the energy centre you're working with once you get them all the same brightness it goes white then you get access to the higher stuff )

I must admit, I'm surprised you haven't accessed this stuff as well. It's third eye vision.

Edit: I've been celibate for several years as well (no masturbation either ) it makes the qi stronger.

[Carmody]

of course, most of what we write in words and communicate in the 3d world is bass-askward.

We ascribe control and development of moving forward from a egoic viewpoint where the the body is the central point of being. With regard to communication in a 3d realm, this is indeed true. But it is not the true state, it is only one door, the earthly door.

These actions, astral projection and the like, do take and make notice of such effects and instances..but most times it is viewed from the incorrect reality, regarding completeness of form.

[Borden]

It's definitely more than lucid dreaming, I can do that too and it's a completely different experience. It's a different sort of sight and you have to be completely conscious and aware and in my experience unthinking as well, for me the first manifestations of it were seeing the colours of qi whilst doing qi gong exercises. (They look like light put through a dichroic filter or laser light, monochromatic the colour you see depends on the energy centre you're working with once you get them all the same brightness it goes white then you get access to the higher stuff )

I must admit, I'm surprised you haven't accessed this stuff as well. It's third eye vision.

Edit: I've been celibate for several years as well (no masturbation either ) it makes the qi stronger.

Wow, that description tells me you know whereof you speak,

my best (less scientific) description is moonlit. Lucid dreams are totally different ... we're on the same page, mate. My experience is always silvery, everything is silvery.

p.s. are your spheroids now like melons? I'm an irreverent person, but I mean no disrespect. That is commitment. I am impressed and curious about where this masculine energy goes.

Borden

[joedjemal]

It's definitely more than lucid dreaming, I can do that too and it's a completely different experience. It's a different sort of sight and you have to be completely conscious and aware and in my experience unthinking as well, for me the first manifestations of it were seeing the colours of qi whilst doing qi gong exercises. (They look like light put through a dichroic filter or laser light, monochromatic the colour you see depends on the energy centre you're working with once you get them all the same brightness it goes white then you get access to the higher stuff )

I must admit, I'm surprised you haven't accessed this stuff as well. It's third eye vision.

Edit: I've been celibate for several years as well (no masturbation either ) it makes the qi stronger.

Wow, that description tells me you know whereof you speak,

my best (less scientific) description is moonlit. Lucid dreams are totally different ... we're on the same page, mate. My experience is always silvery, everything is silvery.

p.s. are your spheroids now like melons? I'm an irreverent person, but I mean no disrespect. That is commitment. I am impressed and curious about where this masculine energy goes.

Borden

Tend to have the occasional wet dream otherwise I don't miss it.

[Bollinger]

Astral travel.

Now some of you are definitely not going to like this: please remember it is from a ignorant person's point of view...someone has never done it. Well, not in this life!

There are two aspects here: the descriptions from those who claim astral travel, and those descriptions from in the Bardo (periods after death, before rebirth). Again I cannot remember bardo experiences, but had very disturbing dreams when I was young.

Both these aspects describe the same thing, and this is in itself interesting - beiing able to travel anywhere unimpeded. From what I have read, most beings are blown around by karma in the bardo, without any control. So we end up where karma blows us, due to previous intentions.

The problem I have is that when people claim to astral travel - it always sounds so mundane!
They never ever come back with knowledge. If they did, it would be worth investigating...

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.

If you can actually astral travel, please go to a Buddha realm and ask questions and bring back some authentic teachings, so we can all benefit!

Please enlighten me,
Tony

Thanks Tony.

It is a valid question (what is the point of it?) and one which reflects closely the sentiment I hold with regard to astral travel and other phenomena like it.

Without wishing to annoy people by dismissing their experience as a trick of the mind, I can report that as far as medical science is concerned (and I know many people here do not have a great deal of faith in anything mainstream medicine and a fair percentage of it fully justified), there is a physical explanation of sorts for such experiences.

But I won’t try to repeat that explanation here because the information is easily available. However, purely from a pragmatist’s perspective, assuming the experiences are real, one has to ask; what use is it? A lot of people have personal things happen to them to which only they themselves are privy and while it may bring comfort and consolation to the individual, it does nothing for the rest of us because we are told again and again we cannot share in its virtue until we ourselves experience it. In the absence of acceptable evidence to prove even the possibility of such things, regardless of whether or not we are all capable of it, there is no chance of it achieving universal acceptance.

The other thing to remember is that the human body, coupled with the complex workings of the brain and the mind, is a miraculous piece of equipment. It still baffles our experts and confounds us to such a degree that, for all that expertise and knowledge, it is completely vulnerable and often afflicted with all sorts of disorders that we can neither cure nor explain and the patient withers and dies as we watch.

Why should the idea of astral travel not come under one of those strange phenomena for which there is no adequate explanation? There are plenty of real examples that nobody can deny, but are just as intriguing, just as unbelievable and yet universally recognised and accepted. What about the person who functions with hardly any brain material? What of those who can memorise entire directories or do long division in their heads? How about the people who undergo spontaneous remission from terminal illnesses? Are these any less spectacular?

People in the alternative community often try to “explain” things using nothing but a set of unsubstantiated beliefs because this not only acts to reinforce those convictions but manages to “confirm” what they had always suspected. This is a very poor way of ascertaining knowledge. Humanity cannot afford to place its trust in what we loosely call: discernment, resonations, beliefs, feelings, imaginings, hunches, intuitions or voices in our head. The minute you lend credence to those things, you are more than likely to meet with disillusionment and despair.

This is an extremely dark world. Knowledge comes to us at a very high cost in investment and effort. Why is that? Does anyone question why it should be like that? According to mainstream science, we have been roaming the earth in anything like our present form for something between 100,000 to 250,000 years. Even with this estimate, it isn’t hard to see that humanity has grossly underachieved and I know people here believe in all sorts of purposefully contrived and nefarious reasons for it and there is also some evidence to back it up. What we don’t have is a stone-wall, concrete and irrefutable motive. Yes lots of people have written lots of books about it and based their assumptions on one thing or another but you would think astral travel would be the perfect way to find this out. That would be one use for it but it seems people just float around for a while and then return. It might as well be all just a dream.

[Sebastion]

I wish to add here in addition to what has been previously stated. In the beginning of my particular journey, I was not then nor am I now interested in acquiring "powers or abilities". That was never any part of my intent. Whatever I was born with naturally was perfectly fine with me and still is. I have experienced many wonderful things and many dark things as well. I would never elaborate on most of it on this forum or any other forum for obvious reasons. As I have previously stated, it is an alone process and believe it to be individual specific, for the understanding of the individual involved. In other words, a sacred journey of the individual.

[Carmody]

Astral travel.

Now some of you are definitely not going to like this: please remember it is from a ignorant person's point of view...someone has never done it. Well, not in this life!

There are two aspects here: the descriptions from those who claim astral travel, and those descriptions from in the Bardo (periods after death, before rebirth). Again I cannot remember bardo experiences, but had very disturbing dreams when I was young.

Both these aspects describe the same thing, and this is in itself interesting - beiing able to travel anywhere unimpeded. From what I have read, most beings are blown around by karma in the bardo, without any control. So we end up where karma blows us, due to previous intentions.

The problem I have is that when people claim to astral travel - it always sounds so mundane!
They never ever come back with knowledge. If they did, it would be worth investigating...

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realize our true nature.

If you can actually astral travel, please go to a Buddha realm and ask questions and bring back some authentic teachings, so we can all benefit!

Please enlighten me,
Tony

Thanks Tony.

It is a valid question (what is the point of it?) and one which reflects closely the sentiment I hold with regard to astral travel and other phenomena like it.

Without wishing to annoy people by dismissing their experience as a trick of the mind, I can report that as far as medical science is concerned (and I know many people here do not have a great deal of faith in anything mainstream medicine and a fair percentage of it fully justified), there is a physical explanation of sorts for such experiences.

But I won’t try to repeat that explanation here because the information is easily available. However, purely from a pragmatist’s perspective, assuming the experiences are real, one has to ask; what use is it? A lot of people have personal things happen to them to which only they themselves are privy and while it may bring comfort and consolation to the individual, it does nothing for the rest of us because we are told again and again we cannot share in its virtue until we ourselves experience it. In the absence of acceptable evidence to prove even the possibility of such things, regardless of whether or not we are all capable of it, there is no chance of it achieving universal acceptance.

The other thing to remember is that the human body, coupled with the complex workings of the brain and the mind, is a miraculous piece of equipment. It still baffles our experts and confounds us to such a degree that, for all that expertise and knowledge, it is completely vulnerable and often afflicted with all sorts of disorders that we can neither cure nor explain and the patient withers and dies as we watch.

Why should the idea of astral travel not come under one of those strange phenomena for which there is no adequate explanation? There are plenty of real examples that nobody can deny, but are just as intriguing, just as unbelievable and yet universally recognised and accepted. What about the person who functions with hardly any brain material? What of those who can memorise entire directories or do long division in their heads? How about the people who undergo spontaneous remission from terminal illnesses? Are these any less spectacular?

People in the alternative community often try to “explain” things using nothing but a set of unsubstantiated beliefs because this not only acts to reinforce those convictions but manages to “confirm” what they had always suspected. This is a very poor way of ascertaining knowledge. Humanity cannot afford to place its trust in what we loosely call: discernment, resonations, beliefs, feelings, imaginings, hunches, intuitions or voices in our head. The minute you lend credence to those things, you are more than likely to meet with disillusionment and despair.

This is an extremely dark world. Knowledge comes to us at a very high cost in investment and effort. Why is that? Does anyone question why it should be like that? According to mainstream science, we have been roaming the earth in anything like our present form for something between 100,000 to 250,000 years. Even with this estimate, it isn’t hard to see that humanity has grossly underachieved and I know people here believe in all sorts of purposefully contrived and nefarious reasons for it and there is also some evidence to back it up. What we don’t have is a stone-wall, concrete and irrefutable motive. Yes lots of people have written lots of books about it and based their assumptions on one thing or another but you would think astral travel would be the perfect way to find this out. That would be one use for it but it seems people just float around for a while and then return. It might as well be all just a dream.

The shortcoming of the mechanistic aspects of proofing via the normally applied scientific method, is that most of it is concerned with the one aspect. It is also about coming from the one direction. A direction that is not capable of recognizing the new..due to where it comes from.

Since it exposes it's dogmatic backside, this 'science' it cannot self correct..and like any car with the wheel glued into one state..it eventually goes into the ditch. Breaking the wheel free is a matter of human psychology, and has little to do with the science, so very few of those in science will see it as the problem that it is. It is a psychological development issue, not one of logic and record.

It is only a matter of time where the modern model of physics fails, and it fails in the face of this.

You will have to try these things for yourself. Only then will your ignorance be relieved. And, most specifically, until you have sufficient force coming from within to bend your own ego, this will not happen.

The viewpoint I keep trying to move you to understand.... is that your argument is entirely circular.

Until you yourself release yourself from that given mindset, you will not understand where others are 'coming from'. If not, then it is your problem, this given mindset, not mine.

You are not getting me upset.

What gets me to being terse... is when you continue to come from that direction and mindset when the reality of what needs be done (by you for you) has been clearly illustrated to you, on many occasions --here on this forum.

I will say, though, I appreciate the seeming greater balance presented in this given post of yours.

[joedjemal]

Astral travel.

Now some of you are definitely not going to like this: please remember it is from a ignorant person's point of view...someone has never done it. Well, not in this life!

There are two aspects here: the descriptions from those who claim astral travel, and those descriptions from in the Bardo (periods after death, before rebirth). Again I cannot remember bardo experiences, but had very disturbing dreams when I was young.

Both these aspects describe the same thing, and this is in itself interesting - beiing able to travel anywhere unimpeded. From what I have read, most beings are blown around by karma in the bardo, without any control. So we end up where karma blows us, due to previous intentions.

The problem I have is that when people claim to astral travel - it always sounds so mundane!
They never ever come back with knowledge. If they did, it would be worth investigating...

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.

If you can actually astral travel, please go to a Buddha realm and ask questions and bring back some authentic teachings, so we can all benefit!

Please enlighten me,
Tony

Thanks Tony.

It is a valid question (what is the point of it?) and one which reflects closely the sentiment I hold with regard to astral travel and other phenomena like it.

Without wishing to annoy people by dismissing their experience as a trick of the mind, I can report that as far as medical science is concerned (and I know many people here do not have a great deal of faith in anything mainstream medicine and a fair percentage of it fully justified), there is a physical explanation of sorts for such experiences.

But I won’t try to repeat that explanation here because the information is easily available. However, purely from a pragmatist’s perspective, assuming the experiences are real, one has to ask; what use is it? A lot of people have personal things happen to them to which only they themselves are privy and while it may bring comfort and consolation to the individual, it does nothing for the rest of us because we are told again and again we cannot share in its virtue until we ourselves experience it. In the absence of acceptable evidence to prove even the possibility of such things, regardless of whether or not we are all capable of it, there is no chance of it achieving universal acceptance.

The other thing to remember is that the human body, coupled with the complex workings of the brain and the mind, is a miraculous piece of equipment. It still baffles our experts and confounds us to such a degree that, for all that expertise and knowledge, it is completely vulnerable and often afflicted with all sorts of disorders that we can neither cure nor explain and the patient withers and dies as we watch.

Why should the idea of astral travel not come under one of those strange phenomena for which there is no adequate explanation? There are plenty of real examples that nobody can deny, but are just as intriguing, just as unbelievable and yet universally recognised and accepted. What about the person who functions with hardly any brain material? What of those who can memorise entire directories or do long division in their heads? How about the people who undergo spontaneous remission from terminal illnesses? Are these any less spectacular?

People in the alternative community often try to “explain” things using nothing but a set of unsubstantiated beliefs because this not only acts to reinforce those convictions but manages to “confirm” what they had always suspected. This is a very poor way of ascertaining knowledge. Humanity cannot afford to place its trust in what we loosely call: discernment, resonations, beliefs, feelings, imaginings, hunches, intuitions or voices in our head. The minute you lend credence to those things, you are more than likely to meet with disillusionment and despair.

This is an extremely dark world. Knowledge comes to us at a very high cost in investment and effort. Why is that? Does anyone question why it should be like that? According to mainstream science, we have been roaming the earth in anything like our present form for something between 100,000 to 250,000 years. Even with this estimate, it isn’t hard to see that humanity has grossly underachieved and I know people here believe in all sorts of purposefully contrived and nefarious reasons for it and there is also some evidence to back it up. What we don’t have is a stone-wall, concrete and irrefutable motive. Yes lots of people have written lots of books about it and based their assumptions on one thing or another but you would think astral travel would be the perfect way to find this out. That would be one use for it but it seems people just float around for a while and then return. It might as well be all just a dream.

For me the visions of different places aren't the point, that seems to be a side effect. Being enabled to see like this has become my main tool in my qi work, in connecting me more deeply. I know it's something that can't easily be shared, how do I put highly abstract multidimensional colour animations that I can feel in my body into words or even mathematics? When you get to that point communication becomes symbols and other extremely vague and abstract stuff I certainly get those koans now, you have to do it to get it. I'm sorry I can't share the experiences I can only offer a vague glimpse. I'm struggling to understand it all myself but to me it's more real than this humdrum nightmare called reality and I spend most of my time there.

[Bollinger]

…
What gets me to being terse... is when you continue to come from that direction and mindset when the reality of what needs be done (by you for you) has been clearly illustrated to you, on many occasions --here on this forum.
…


Say a question about astral travel came up in a psychology paper, and it said something like:

“Many people claim to be capable of astral travel; assuming it is real and given that the large majority of the general population claim no such thing, discuss and explain how it might serve the human race?”

That was your answer to it? An incomprehensible rambling about (goodness knows what) wandering aimlessly until it ended up evaluating the examiner. Absolutely hilarious!

So when you reply to this post, like I know you’re going to, here is another chance to answer the question. Assuming it is real, what, if any, purpose does astral travel serve humanity, (not the individual)?

[Bollinger]

For me the visions of different places aren't the point, that seems to be a side effect. Being enabled to see like this has become my main tool in my qi work, in connecting me more deeply. I know it's something that can't easily be shared, how do I put highly abstract multidimensional colour animations that I can feel in my body into words or even mathematics? When you get to that point communication becomes symbols and other extremely vague and abstract stuff I certainly get those koans now, you have to do it to get it. I'm sorry I can't share the experiences I can only offer a vague glimpse. I'm struggling to understand it all myself but to me it's more real than this humdrum nightmare called reality and I spend most of my time there.

Yes but I could just as easily say that going for a nature walk lifts and rejuvenates me in the same way as astral travel (or whichever brand of experience you are having) helps you. Do you not see that there is a lumbering great “so what” attached to both our experiences?

[Tarka the Duck]

Hello Joe


I'm sorry I can't share the experiences I can only offer a vague glimpse. I'm struggling to understand it all myself but to me it's more real than this humdrum nightmare called reality and I spend most of my time there.

So, in reply to OP's question about how astral projection is of benefit, could one say that it makes you happier in that you experience something beyond your physical body? And so, on a simple level, in being happier, your dealings with others will presumably be kinder and thus they benefit from your practice?

Kathie

[Tony]

I am wondering to myself....”hmm, perhaps some people 'need' this experience and others do not.”
“We all have different inner questions, maybe we have different inner quests.

So the outcome may be different for all of us.”

...hmm..”Some people like logic, and others do not. Some people 'know' something, and others need convincing.”


OK, I think everyone is right!


:popcorn:

[minkton]

Lots of people think they dont 'need' meditation, and certainly dont believe for an instant that meditation benefits humanity.

Would we know if astral travel benefits humanity, a) without trying it and b) by thinking about it merely with our left brains?!

If we believe that widening and deepening our consciousness benefits humanity, under any circumstances, then it would apply here also.

if we believe in collective consciousness at all...why discriminate re. excursions into the non physical. How is it any different from shamanic experience?

[jessamy99]

Perhaps astral projection is just something some of us can do, like swimming or skating. Perhaps on one level it is no more and no less than that. There may be no reason for it, and no particular benefit for humanity. It is just a joy to fly. Have any of you ever watched a bird soar in the wind, and wished you could experience it? These abilities come with spiritual development. But, it is wise to keep your eye on your goal. Try not to let the oobe distract you from your path.
With love,
Jessamy.

[joedjemal]

I think the spiritual quest in itself, if followed by enough people, certainly could benefit humanity. I harm none, my qi work heals me and allows me to heal others to some extent. My quest gives me a perspective that might be valued one day when the current unsustainable mess has its inevitable encounter with reality.

Some might say that the process of spiritual searching provides humanity with perspectives that contribute to its cultural evolution. If your world view is purely mechanistic I'm not sure how you might be convinced of its value though. I suspect that the purely mechanistic world view might be meeting its own extinction before long except in the minds of the irredeemably ignorant though. The evidence for this world being nothing more than information is mounting.

[Bollinger]

World history is littered with prophecy and sophistry. Go as far back as you like. Every generation thinks it’s on the “brink” of something. Every era has its myths and beliefs. Every culture, (past, present and future) comes with its particular set of superstitions and fables. Every single sector of humanity has busied itself looking for that illusive alchemy of life based on spiritual or mystical considerations. Which of them has added a single, real, far-reaching, tangible benefit to humanity as a whole?

The very gadget on which you toiled to get your message to this forum owes its existence to the endeavours of science and technology. The appliances you use, the communication devices, the electricity that runs through the cables, the light that illuminates your room and a billion other things; did any one of them leap into existence because we sat in a dark room and meditated or flew off to some remote region of the universe one night in an astral excursion?

I am at a complete loss as to what makes people think “this is it”; this particular time is special; we are the chosen ones; something big is going to happen; ascension is just around the corner; rapture is about to burst through the doors any minute. These sorts of ideas and beliefs are always within the human psyche because it is a trait from which we cannot escape.

If real technology such as free energy or advanced medical science is being kept from us deliberately because of greed and corruption, that must change. If people are deliberately made to suffer because of the need for power and control, that must change. But I doubt very much we can do it by the methods of astral travel or any other individualistic practice to which only the first person is party and the best that can be done is to share the experience with others.

When you make a statement like: I suspect that the purely mechanistic world view might be meeting its own extinction before long except in the minds of the irredeemably ignorant though that is nothing but pure belief with no basis whatsoever. A large section of humanity is cursed with a religion of one sort or another and that statement demonstrates it’s still very much alive and kicking.

[aranuk]

Here's somebody who Did 'bring back knowledge'... Itzhak Bentov. This video has an interview conducted in 1978. He died in a plane crash in 1980. Also, after the '78 interview, there's an Extensive presentation given by his wife, sometime after his death. An astounding breadth and depth of knowledge, particularly given the timeframe. 1:47:56 long, but well worth it!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVt1ErkLVMU&list=PL5A71F5F9459EAEBF&index=37&feature=plpp_video

In Unity and Peace

Thank you Kindred for that video. I could understand it quite well, not thoroughly though. I certainly could not have understood as well when I was 34 in 1980. He was ahead of his time I think and his wife wasn't that far behind I think.

Stan

[aranuk]

What's the difference in meditation and oob experience, as you see it, Mr. Tony?

As I said in the OP, I haven't had experience of astral projection, and so I can't really compare the two.
Meditation is about being here, now.
I don't know about going out of the body and practising somewhere else. Perhaps it's possible but as yet no one has come back with any wisdom to share with others – it seems to be merely a personal experience.

I do a yidam practice, which entails a preparation for death and which has the potential of going through stages of enlightenment at death. This is according to the tradition that I follow, and it's only one method (recognition of one's true nature is of paramount importance – everything else is just a projection).

There is an outside possibility – and some won't like this – that, during meditation, one can drift into a dreamy state, or even fall asleep, and these experiences could come from here. I hope I don't offend anyone by saying that (it does seem all too easy to do that).

I am open to more enlightened information: it's important to have more investigation than speculation ;) !

Tony

Hi Tony Rudolf Steiner not only visited the astral domain but other spiritual planes and he came back and told the world what he experienced. I have read about 250 books mostly transcripts from his lectures around europe explaining in fine detail of what he found. He passed on in 1925 but not forgotten.

Stan

PS I don't really like telling people what he found as it is second hand. I have not experienced what he did, only some of what he spoke about.

[aranuk]

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.



I'm happy to report, Tony, that I am a complete failure as far as astral travel is concerned. :cool:

I am stuck here and now and this is all I have to go on to realise my true nature.

What knowledge I have discovered is that I can only be realised here now and never 'out there' or 'some place else'.

Jeanette

Jenci,

what is here and now? In my experience meditative states strip away the illusion of here and now to some extent. Even as you read the previous sentence it was not an authentic 'now'. I see the moment to be illusory. And if the moment is illusory, then deeper perception must abandon the moment and recognise that it and everything seen from its contrived position is an illusion.

There is a 'super-position' of consciousness, in my opinion. Anything that can show us that is beneficial to those seeking enlightenment. Astral projection may not be the answer to everything, but it is something that shows you a 'self' completely outside of the normal, distraction ridden state.

On the astral, as I said, I have experienced a 'state of mind' that I have been able to remember and translate to this 'reality', to an extent. It has helped me enormously. The Taoist detachment I have been able to evoke (at times) is something that astral projection has helped me with enormously.

I am not someone who believes that we are in this illusion simply to get out of this illusion. This illusion has a purpose, and I believe that purpose is not simply to transcend this illusion, but to fully understand what it is and why we are creating it.

As far as I am concerned, there is no 'out there' or 'some place else'. You are everything and everything is you. To focus your experience and therefore your understanding on everything you see and feel through one aspect of self may be a useful pursuit, I don't know. I'm not having the experience of being you. I do know that astral projection and lucid dreaming have shown me valuable things about my perception, and about my 'self'.

Borden

Well described Borden.

Stan

[Tenzin]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

The Buddha did specify the various supramundane abilities we will develop naturally and progressively. He did not promote them, but that does not mean it is not encouraged. The Buddha on several occasions praised Maha Mogallana, one of His foremost disciples, most skilled in psychic powers, for using his power for appropriate circumstances. Even the Buddha himself used them to propagate the Truth. Anyway, it is simply a normal outcome if we are doing our practice properly.

We have to transcend the mind, and when we can do that, of course we will not longer be held back by our physical senses. When that happens, this physical world will cease to be as interesting as it used to be. Really. Many spiritually enlightened people don't speak about it, and they tend to keep it to themselves because most of the world think they are whacked. They only share when the listener is ready, which is few by human standards.

Most of the people who are unable to perceive beyond the normal spectrum of vibration perceptible to the physical eye is because our 'energy is low' or our 'consciousness has not expended' enough. We have to raise our energy, to preserve them, and develop them through meditation.

Our desires for whatever exists in this physical realm, and our reactions and actions that we commit in response to them, will latch us into this level of consciousness. The greater the attachment and our responses, regardless good, bad or neutral in context, will keep us within this 'lower vibratory state'. And sometimes, other beings unseen by the eyes, feed on our energy when we send our emotions out from the actions we do, including our thoughts, which is also regarded as an action in Buddhism.

There are much coorelations with the Buddhist teachings with the increasing spiritual materials we can now find online. Some of them, are very true. And some, are missing from the Buddhist teachings, or at least not explicitly mentioned.

Those enlightened masters do not openly promote them because they are doing it to protect the practitioner. I believe everyone is aware that people can change when they are suddenly given wealth beyond their imagination. They indulge themselves at the expense of others. Same for spiritual skills.

In the spiritual realm, if you have access to certain powers, people who are not virtuous, will abuse them. Many monks, who have just acquired certain powers, start to leave the monastary and set up their own shop to offer their service for money; for business, sex, and other things eternally desired by the human being.

And those who have a pure aspiration, will be aided by the devas, in acquiring such skills in their mission to help other sentient beings.

There are a lot of clues and hints that our masters are giving us. If we can follow the 'precepts', and persist in our meditation, we will really find that out for ourselves tat something is true or not, and finally give up trying to seek an answer by intellectual means alone. Those who are always looking for external gratification of the senses, will of course not be bothered with meditation. Or even if they do, they lose themselves when they are tempted by the abundance of distractions and DECEPTIONS in the spiritual realms.

In this approach, it all goes well, because those who are ready to leave this world and end the cycles of rebirth, will not only want to leave the human existence, but the celestial existences as well, which have far greater temptations than what we can find here.

How many people can do that? We all are human beings because deep in our heart, we choose to be reborned, because we have that desire etched deep within. It is normal. Only those who have made up their mind, will make the effort to seek the real truth for themselves, and for that to happen, we have to transcend the mind, the ego, our earthly desires, and go within.

A little repetitive and random up there, as I am typing while thinking. Thank you for staying with me.

Interesting topic, thanks for sharing!

[CdnSirian]

O.K. I am not going to be able to answer everyone above - but I read it all. We all have, and come here with different abilities. For some, astral travel is totally irrelevant.

On the surface it would appear that we came here to experience existence in physical bodies. So why do we want to do anything else when we're here, like get out of the body? Why do we want to go There when we're Here? I've read The Tibetan Book of The Dead, meant to guide those leaving the physical body so they don't get distracted in the Bardo and not make it forward (to where --whose rules?)

Or we come here to master being in a body and being able to get out of it and go --where? And teach others. Maybe so, perfectly valid. I've enjoyed the thread although it verged on becoming a slightly stressful
argument here and there.

This thread reminds me of a super cool novel I read a while ago. It is about Tibetan monks and the communist Chinese. The monks are doing what they do, straddling realities all day as they labor in a quarry or something and get locked up every night by the Chinese. The monks traverse the light fantastic overnight and give each other reports in the morning. That is their day after day routine. But they are captured slaves. Tensions mount and one night one of the Top Gun monks stays outside. In the morning...

the Chinese guards find him dead on the ground with the words "Catch me" written in the snow near his hand. I laughed with joy for about ten minutes. I still imagine him out in the Bardo, laughing. He's out there. O.K., that's just a book, but -- know what I mean?

[Rantaak]

I am wondering to myself....”hmm, perhaps some people 'need' this experience and others do not.”
“We all have different inner questions, maybe we have different inner quests.

So the outcome may be different for all of us.”

...hmm..”Some people like logic, and others do not. Some people 'know' something, and others need convincing.”


OK, I think everyone is right!


:popcorn:

My understanding of reality is such that if something serves the individual, so does it serve humanity. Knowledge gained has a way of trickling its way (consciously or subconsciously) through society and eventually affecting the world as a whole. So it makes perfect sense that not everyone needs to have these experiences and that not every person will. Some people who cling desperately to logic are less likely to have profound experiences because of the way they are grounding themselves to "conventional" reality by fixating their assemblage point (lens of consciousness) in the same location for the majority of their adult lives.

In my experience, I tend to struggle a lot less when I just "know" things instead of trying to get validation from an external source or logic. The logic might come out in the communication of the idea, but it doesn't necessarily play a role in the formation of the idea.

I have experienced astral travel, though I have never made the conscious decision to do so. I suspect that the state may be very closely related, or even functionally dependent, on hypnogogia. In this state, I generally find myself moving my consciousness through time, space, and different levels of vibration. Sometimes the visions are fractals of (allegedly) sacred geometry, sometimes they involve revisiting past experiences and separating from my body in order to perceive certain details of an interaction which I didn't notice before and this lends to more comfortably accepting or understanding the experience. Sometimes I go forward in time or to alternate timelines, such that hypothetical situations are perceived and understood in terms of how they might be engendered. In this state of hypnogogia, the visual center of the brain (perhaps the pineal gland) is actually seeing whatever I'm looking at or doing on the astral.

Sometimes it happens every day for several weeks, but other times months go by without it happening at all. I just kind of let my higher self do its thing; I exist in a state of constant improvisation (musician). I don't need a short term memory, it's all long-term and improvisational. Thoughts and ideas are recalled or formulated (channeled?) as necessary.

Also skeptics fill me with a lot of mirth because I used to be there with them, crossing my arms and shaking my head in left-brained disproval. But now that things have changed, I don't really have the option of rationalizing away the existence of magic because I have experienced it and it has changed my brain, body, mind and soul.

Cheers!

[bearcow]

The Buddha did specify the various supramundane abilities we will develop naturally and progressively. He did not promote them, but that does not mean it is not encouraged. The Buddha on several occasions praised Maha Mogallana, one of His foremost disciples, most skilled in psychic powers, for using his power for appropriate circumstances. Even the Buddha himself used them to propagate the Truth. Anyway, it is simply a normal outcome if we are doing our practice properly.

100% correct, there is no need to try to develop various abilities prematurely, in time they arise as the natural outcome of the refinement of the astral body.

in the astral realm things feel more "alive", you are in a yin continuum and your feelings are stronger. the non independent forms present in the astral landscape radiate the overall quality of astral matter present on that particular plane. The unconscious wants to see the astral as a 3 dimensional landscape, and superimpose the spacial relationships taken for granted in the physical realm. simple things, like learning that the force of gravity does not apply in the astral realm, is quite liberating for the mind, as you gain a freedom from the conditioning of your unconscious and slowly start to open the door of perception that the astral world, and thus the mind itself, has a breadth and depth all of its own.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwVKL7GCYrU&feature=related

[Jake]

Astral travel.

Now some of you are definitely not going to like this: please remember it is from a ignorant person's point of view...someone has never done it. Well, not in this life!

There are two aspects here: the descriptions from those who claim astral travel, and those descriptions from in the Bardo (periods after death, before rebirth). Again I cannot remember bardo experiences, but had very disturbing dreams when I was young.

Both these aspects describe the same thing, and this is in itself interesting - beiing able to travel anywhere unimpeded. From what I have read, most beings are blown around by karma in the bardo, without any control. So we end up where karma blows us, due to previous intentions.

The problem I have is that when people claim to astral travel - it always sounds so mundane!
They never ever come back with knowledge. If they did, it would be worth investigating...

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.

If you can actually astral travel, please go to a Buddha realm and ask questions and bring back some authentic teachings, so we can all benefit!

Please enlighten me,
Tony

Hello, Tony.

False hopes are a reflection of self. I do not have the ability to enlighten anyone, again, that is also a reflection of self. :)

I have not posted in months, and I feel inspired to post now. Thank you!

To get right to the point,,, Once one has experienced the fully conscious OBE, a direct connection is established with ones higher self, and an amazing personal journey begins. I got sick of trying to prove it to people,,, sometimes I do try, but to tell you the complete truth, I find it difficult (while out of body) to keep a high priority of 'proving' it. I can spend my time doing verification experiments, (which I have, btw www.thebookofjacob.webs.com ) or I can spend my time exploring the amazing realities that exist. I can experience the living, electric, freedom that comes with expanding your mind and embracing this type of event,, OR I can waste my time trying to prove it to you! :) (not you, tony, I mean you as in, someone else.) download mee free ebook from mee make-shift webby... skip to the journals section. you can read all about my astral experiences, especially regarding some fantastic experiments that I was able to verity.

The point of Astral Travel is not to prove it to YOU,,, it is to prove it to ME! If you have never experienced OBE then you have some amazing times ahead of you.


The problem I have is that when people claim to astral travel - it always sounds so mundane!
They never ever come back with knowledge. If they did, it would be worth investigating...

You, clearly have not done much research... it is all out there.

Be honest,,, if i were to visit your 'Bhudda Realm' and report my findings to you,,, you would think I was full of $#!* would you not? you have to experience these things for yourself! Noone can do it for you.

i do point to the collective works or Robert Monroe and Robert Bruce for starters.

The Astral realms are our birthright. I do not Claim to have OBEs any more than you Claim not to. I know that you project every night when you sleep,,, it is true,,, you just don't remember. I used to know someone who 'claimed' that he did not have dreams. Of course this is impossible, he just did not remember them. Today,,, I know people who 'claim' not to have OBEs,,, same thing. I know better.

The OBE is as natural as breathing. We are not thrown around by Karma in the astral any more than we are thrown around by Karma in the Physical.

It is part of a large list of untapped human potentials.

No offense, but why would I want to bring back deep philisophical insights from the astral. Who would believe me,,, Hell, i spend most of my time putting my hands through walls and flying around and freaking out the cats in the neigborhood.

Sorry, I am not the religious type. yet based on my experiences, I walk with full waking knowledge that I am more than my human body, and that there is an energetic counterpart to the physical world.

I could tell you all of the many things that I have learned, but what good would it do? You have to learn on your own. Right?

I know nothing about the 'bardo' experience... But I know that Astral travel is just as real as Physical travel! :) Physicality is Dense Astral. Do some more research,,,, many folks have brought back many wonderful and amazing insights from the astral realms, do you think that buddha remained in his physical body while he meditated???

ps,,, don't get me wrong,,, i have failed many times, trying to prove it to people,,, from my perspective,,, when you are ready, you will have one. I won't try to prove it again.

I hope that I am not being too 'sharp'... I don't think I am.

See ya round, tony.

[Rantaak]

I know that you project every night when you sleep


Everyone does it, nobody talks about it. Just like masturbation.
:wizard:


do you think that buddha remained in his physical body while he meditated???


My psychonaut:smokin: friend had a powerful OBE recently and claims to have encountered Buddha while in that particular space, who taught him how to meditate. I was like, "Oh yeah, I just started being aware of the fact that I do that all the time due to this particularly Elven looking guy from the UK on some internet forum."
Interestingly enough, my friend refers to that particular state as a, "behavioral-relational dissociative." There are other states of OBE that encompass other categories which better suit my interests, however, and they are probably very much like Robert Monroe's different focus levels.

I have noticed that as the mind awakens and the ancient dormant structures of the human / energetic bodies begin to realign and turn back on from their deep and popular slumber that certain things start to happen that defy rationalization outside of the possibility that the subconscious awareness or operating agent of our consciousness somehow knows absolutely everything there is to know about anything within the scope of our experiences. Now I know how Keanu Reeves must feel.

[Molly]

Astral travel.

If you can actually astral travel, please go to a Buddha realm and ask questions and bring back some authentic teachings, so we can all benefit!

Please enlighten me,
Tony

Well... I wasn't exactly in a Buddha realm, more like New York City..2 weeks before the September 11th attacks, saw in full detail the towers going down just as they did later on, but it was two UFO's that hit them, not planes. I guess I could have went to New York & tried to "enlighten" everyone to stay away from those buildings, but #1: that was my first dream like that, I didn't realize what was happening until too late. #2: I would have been ignored, at the most, called "Crazy".

[Borden]

I know that you project every night when you sleep


Everyone does it, nobody talks about it. Just like masturbation.
:wizard:


do you think that buddha remained in his physical body while he meditated???


My psychonaut:smokin: friend had a powerful OBE recently and claims to have encountered Buddha while in that particular space, who taught him how to meditate. I was like, "Oh yeah, I just started being aware of the fact that I do that all the time due to this particularly Elven looking guy from the UK on some internet forum."
Interestingly enough, my friend refers to that particular state as a, "behavioral-relational dissociative." There are other states of OBE that encompass other categories which better suit my interests, however, and they are probably very much like Robert Monroe's different focus levels.

I have noticed that as the mind awakens and the ancient dormant structures of the human / energetic bodies begin to realign and turn back on from their deep and popular slumber that certain things start to happen that defy rationalization outside of the possibility that the subconscious awareness or operating agent of our consciousness somehow knows absolutely everything there is to know about anything within the scope of our experiences. Now I know how Keanu Reeves must feel.

I agree with what you said there, Rantaak,

Robert Monroe's focus levels and his descriptions of good deeds he and his co-workers have done on them are a very good argument for the merits of astral projection.

I hope pie'n'eal doesn't mind being described as 'Elven' though,

and (especially considering my profile picture) I am perturbed on Keanu's behalf that you imagine feeling him.

Oh I'm only joshing. Humour and irreverence are the comfortable, luxurious lilo on the swimming pool of ego. Look up Stuart Wilde if you don't know him already. He's great fun, and very wise I think.

best wishes,

Borden

[Jenci]

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.



I'm happy to report, Tony, that I am a complete failure as far as astral travel is concerned. :cool:

I am stuck here and now and this is all I have to go on to realise my true nature.

What knowledge I have discovered is that I can only be realised here now and never 'out there' or 'some place else'.

Jeanette

Jenci,

what is here and now? In my experience meditative states strip away the illusion of here and now to some extent. Even as you read the previous sentence it was not an authentic 'now'. I see the moment to be illusory. And if the moment is illusory, then deeper perception must abandon the moment and recognise that it and everything seen from its contrived position is an illusion.

There is a 'super-position' of consciousness, in my opinion. Anything that can show us that is beneficial to those seeking enlightenment. Astral projection may not be the answer to everything, but it is something that shows you a 'self' completely outside of the normal, distraction ridden state.

On the astral, as I said, I have experienced a 'state of mind' that I have been able to remember and translate to this 'reality', to an extent. It has helped me enormously. The Taoist detachment I have been able to evoke (at times) is something that astral projection has helped me with enormously.

I am not someone who believes that we are in this illusion simply to get out of this illusion. This illusion has a purpose, and I believe that purpose is not simply to transcend this illusion, but to fully understand what it is and why we are creating it.

As far as I am concerned, there is no 'out there' or 'some place else'. You are everything and everything is you. To focus your experience and therefore your understanding on everything you see and feel through one aspect of self may be a useful pursuit, I don't know. I'm not having the experience of being you. I do know that astral projection and lucid dreaming have shown me valuable things about my perception, and about my 'self'.

Borden

Hi Borden,

Perhaps a misunderstanding here because I have no problems with astral travel. I spend a lot of time out of my body. I've got no label for it, it's just what I experience. But an experience is impermanent - there's a coming, going and changing.

Our experiences, whatever they are, may help us on the way to understanding our true nature but the impermanent is not our true nature.

You seem to have a good understanding about all of this.
I got the sense the OP was more about people who didn't have this understanding and were trying to realise their true nature and could become distracted by impermanent experiences. That's what I was responding to.

Every moment is an opportunity to realise our true nature whether it is in astral travel or in the midst of a horrible emotional crisis......or even doing the mundane like cleaning the toilet. :)
Jeanette

[Anchor]

......or even doing the mundane like cleaning the toilet. :)

Well, its a long story, but I discovered that I could "dialogue" with my inner self while using the toilet.

No I am not making this **** up!

I told the story before on Avalon, so if you already read it skip on.

I was a programmer. At work I would get stuck on hard problems, and neglect the call of nature - just wait until this next bit is done, but of course there comes a time when you cant put it off, so off I go to the mens room. Standing there, staring at the white tiles, mentally relaxing so I can "go".

After a while, I started to notice that when I got back to my desk I had solved whatever problem it was that I was working on. In fact so did one or two of my colleagues and if I was struggling with something complex they would recommend I took a break in the "thinking room"

So a few months of this goes by and I find myself wondering if this mental state (the "instant" moment I described above) coupled with the white blank walls, and the comparative peace and quiet was conducive to me solving problems. One day, I sort of had "posed" this question to myself, and I hear the answer back "YES" in my own voice in my head, and that set me on a nice long journey of discovery and opening up that inner dialogue.

So toilets can do as you say, except I wasn't exactly... um... cleaning it :)

[Borden]

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.



I'm happy to report, Tony, that I am a complete failure as far as astral travel is concerned. :cool:

I am stuck here and now and this is all I have to go on to realise my true nature.

What knowledge I have discovered is that I can only be realised here now and never 'out there' or 'some place else'.

Jeanette

Jenci,

what is here and now? In my experience meditative states strip away the illusion of here and now to some extent. Even as you read the previous sentence it was not an authentic 'now'. I see the moment to be illusory. And if the moment is illusory, then deeper perception must abandon the moment and recognise that it and everything seen from its contrived position is an illusion.

There is a 'super-position' of consciousness, in my opinion. Anything that can show us that is beneficial to those seeking enlightenment. Astral projection may not be the answer to everything, but it is something that shows you a 'self' completely outside of the normal, distraction ridden state.

On the astral, as I said, I have experienced a 'state of mind' that I have been able to remember and translate to this 'reality', to an extent. It has helped me enormously. The Taoist detachment I have been able to evoke (at times) is something that astral projection has helped me with enormously.

I am not someone who believes that we are in this illusion simply to get out of this illusion. This illusion has a purpose, and I believe that purpose is not simply to transcend this illusion, but to fully understand what it is and why we are creating it.

As far as I am concerned, there is no 'out there' or 'some place else'. You are everything and everything is you. To focus your experience and therefore your understanding on everything you see and feel through one aspect of self may be a useful pursuit, I don't know. I'm not having the experience of being you. I do know that astral projection and lucid dreaming have shown me valuable things about my perception, and about my 'self'.

Borden

Hi Borden,

Perhaps a misunderstanding here because I have no problems with astral travel. I spend a lot of time out of my body. I've got no label for it, it's just what I experience. But an experience is impermanent - there's a coming, going and changing.

Our experiences, whatever they are, may help us on the way to understanding our true nature but the impermanent is not our true nature.

You seem to have a good understanding about all of this.
I got the sense the OP was more about people who didn't have this understanding and were trying to realise their true nature and could become distracted by impermanent experiences. That's what I was responding to.

Every moment is an opportunity to realise our true nature whether it is in astral travel or in the midst of a horrible emotional crisis......or even doing the mundane like cleaning the toilet. :)
Jeanette

I quite agree, Jenci,

and I hope I didn't come across as opposed to your views, which I don't think I am.

Every moment is that opportunity, I agree utterly. If I thought astral projection was a distraction or a dead end I would never say what I have. As I told pie'n'neal in a message, I was initially attracted to it for all the wrong reasons (in my teens), but the actual experience knocked all that ego nonsense out of me. I really believe it has value far beyond "wow, isn't this cool? I can fly!"

I've seen some of your posts and you seem like a deep person to me. I think I misunderstood what you were saying, and I only wanted to assert that it has worth beyond the distraction element. It is an exciting, mystical thing, especially to those that haven't experienced it and want to, and I think that the mystique and glamour surrounding the idea work against those actually trying to do it. That's how it was for me, and I only finally managed it and recognised how to do it when I'd got those silly ideas out of my head and it just happened almost by accident one night.

So I would say to anyone ... don't be obsessed with it, don't fetishise it. Pushing and trying will likely keep it away, and if you want to experience it but can't, don't worry about it. Then, if you accidentally (sort of) experience it, you'll see that it's not some incredible thing beyond you, or a super power ... and you can decide for yourself what it adds to your journey. It's not my place to tell you that.

best wishes,

Borden

p.s. you're right ... I'm off to clean the toilet.

[Borden]

......or even doing the mundane like cleaning the toilet. :)

Well, its a long story, but I discovered that I could "dialogue" with my inner self while using the toilet.

No I am not making this **** up!

I told the story before on Avalon, so if you already read it skip on.

I was a programmer. At work I would get stuck on hard problems, and neglect the call of nature - just wait until this next bit is done, but of course there comes a time when you cant put it off, so off I go to the mens room. Standing there, staring at the white tiles, mentally relaxing so I can "go".

After a while, I started to notice that when I got back to my desk I had solved whatever problem it was that I was working on. In fact so did one or two of my colleagues and if I was struggling with something complex they would recommend I took a break in the "thinking room"

So a few months of this goes by and I find myself wondering if this mental state (the "instant" moment I described above) coupled with the white blank walls, and the comparative peace and quiet was conducive to me solving problems. One day, I sort of had "posed" this question to myself, and I hear the answer back "YES" in my own voice in my head, and that set me on a nice long journey of discovery and opening up that inner dialogue.

So toilets can do as you say, except I wasn't exactly... um... cleaning it :)

Haha, yes!

Isn't that Alpha state brainwaves? I seem to remember hearing somewhere that doing something mundane gives rise to this condition, and that's why so many writers, artists, actors, etc say that a long walk gives them inspiration or sorts their head out?

It's so funny how this equipment we use to figure things out is largely wasted. If we can just learn to use it properly maybe we could all be Buddha.

Borden

[Tony]

Lots of people think they dont 'need' meditation, and certainly dont believe for an instant that meditation benefits humanity.

Would we know if astral travel benefits humanity, a) without trying it and b) by thinking about it merely with our left brains?!

If we believe that widening and deepening our consciousness benefits humanity, under any circumstances, then it would apply here also.

if we believe in collective consciousness at all...why discriminate re. excursions into the non physical. How is it any different from shamanic experience?



Meditation is merely being aware of ....being. First to be aware of consciousness, which is relative truth, then to be aware of the natural essence of that consciousness, which is absolute truth.

Meditation is a method to discover ones true nature. It leads to the non-physical, which with practice is used when the breath stops, of this physical body. The intention then is to go to a higher realm, or somewhere to continue training.

Coming out of the body does sound like a nifty trick, but where are you going to go, and for what reason?

Yes, I would love to leave here and find out, but there is much work to do here...when the time is right, I too shall leave.

Avalon is a boot-camp for compassion. Compassion meditation, goes together with devotional meditation....and some analytical meditation.

Meditation is just a word for realising...being....pure being!

[Dorjezigzag]

Just because you are not conscious of your Astral travels does not mean it is not happening.

This quote from Karl Jung is something to consider!

The Bardo Thödol [Tibetan Book of the Dead] began by being a closed book, and so it has remained, no matter what kind of commentaries may be written upon it. For it is a book that will only open itself to spiritual understanding, and this is a capacity which no man is born with, but which he can only acquire through special training and special experience. It is good that such to all intents and purposes useless books exist. They are meant for those queer folk who no longer set much store by the uses, aims, and meaning of present-day civilisation.[9]
— Carl Jung
SY_Mr7NOxsI




Astral travel.

Now some of you are definitely not going to like this: please remember it is from a ignorant person's point of view...someone has never done it. Well, not in this life!

There are two aspects here: the descriptions from those who claim astral travel, and those descriptions from in the Bardo (periods after death, before rebirth). Again I cannot remember bardo experiences, but had very disturbing dreams when I was young.

Both these aspects describe the same thing, and this is in itself interesting - beiing able to travel anywhere unimpeded. From what I have read, most beings are blown around by karma in the bardo, without any control. So we end up where karma blows us, due to previous intentions.

The problem I have is that when people claim to astral travel - it always sounds so mundane!
They never ever come back with knowledge. If they did, it would be worth investigating...

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.

If you can actually astral travel, please go to a Buddha realm and ask questions and bring back some authentic teachings, so we can all benefit!

Please enlighten me,
Tony

[Tony]

Just because you are not conscious of your Astral travels does not mean it is not happening.

This quote from Karl Jung is something to consider!

The Bardo Thödol [Tibetan Book of the Dead] began by being a closed book, and so it has remained, no matter what kind of commentaries may be written upon it. For it is a book that will only open itself to spiritual understanding, and this is a capacity which no man is born with, but which he can only acquire through special training and special experience. It is good that such to all intents and purposes useless books exist. They are meant for those queer folk who no longer set much store by the uses, aims, and meaning of present-day civilisation.[9]
— Carl Jung




Astral travel.

Now some of you are definitely not going to like this: please remember it is from a ignorant person's point of view...someone has never done it. Well, not in this life!

There are two aspects here: the descriptions from those who claim astral travel, and those descriptions from in the Bardo (periods after death, before rebirth). Again I cannot remember bardo experiences, but had very disturbing dreams when I was young.

Both these aspects describe the same thing, and this is in itself interesting - beiing able to travel anywhere unimpeded. From what I have read, most beings are blown around by karma in the bardo, without any control. So we end up where karma blows us, due to previous intentions.

The problem I have is that when people claim to astral travel - it always sounds so mundane!
They never ever come back with knowledge. If they did, it would be worth investigating...

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature.

If you can actually astral travel, please go to a Buddha realm and ask questions and bring back some authentic teachings, so we can all benefit!

Please enlighten me,
Tony
.
Just because I ask a question, does not mean I do not understand. I practice from the Book of the Dead.

Tony

[Carmody]

......or even doing the mundane like cleaning the toilet. :)

Well, its a long story, but I discovered that I could "dialogue" with my inner self while using the toilet.

No I am not making this **** up!

I told the story before on Avalon, so if you already read it skip on.

I was a programmer. At work I would get stuck on hard problems, and neglect the call of nature - just wait until this next bit is done, but of course there comes a time when you cant put it off, so off I go to the mens room. Standing there, staring at the white tiles, mentally relaxing so I can "go".

After a while, I started to notice that when I got back to my desk I had solved whatever problem it was that I was working on. In fact so did one or two of my colleagues and if I was struggling with something complex they would recommend I took a break in the "thinking room"

So a few months of this goes by and I find myself wondering if this mental state (the "instant" moment I described above) coupled with the white blank walls, and the comparative peace and quiet was conducive to me solving problems. One day, I sort of had "posed" this question to myself, and I hear the answer back "YES" in my own voice in my head, and that set me on a nice long journey of discovery and opening up that inner dialogue.

So toilets can do as you say, except I wasn't exactly... um... cleaning it :)

This is due to the body getting out of the way. the stressing blocks intellectual function as the body is responding to the stressing. it is using 'fight or flight' chemical and wiring considerations to channel all consideration or potential for such..through a first or primary filter of fight or flight. Thus the higher levels are impeded.

when you go the throne room and sit on the thinker, your body does it's relaxation thing, and the thought that was TRYING to come through...gets a chance to do so.


Never buy into any stressing, it prevents clear thought. Electrochemically and biologically, it blocks clear thought.

[Selene]

What a privilege to meet so many of my fellow “frequent flyers” here!

Thanks to you all so very much for sharing your insights. I’d post more here myself – but I cannot think of anything to add to your already eloquent comments.

And a special thanks to Pie’n’eel and Bollinger for providing the sounding boards for others to respond. We all struggle to express the inexpressible nature of reality; you both do a great service here by continuing to ask your questions.

My best wishes,

Selene

[minkton]

[/QUOTE]
.
Just because I ask a question, does not mean I do not understand. I practice from the Book of the Dead.

Tony[/QUOTE]

Hey Tony! Tell about said practices, please!?

[Tony]

Hey Tony! Tell about said practices, please!?

Mmmmm....too much titlllation going on at the moment ;)
But you do seem a bit keen so I shall dig out a few notes...

Tony

[Dorjezigzag]

Just because I ask a question, does not mean I do not understand. I practice from the Book of the Dead
I always enjoy your posts but I must ask
If you already understand, why ask the question? What is your intent with asking that question?
Do you think that a question can be leading? Can be manipulative? Can have an agenda?
And do you believe that your understanding can be deepened, or do you see it as a finality, i.e. is your mind open
I have had a lot of experience in the Astral realm and it is not something I choose to do ( although you could debate that I made the choice somewhere), if you have those experiences you will wish to meditate on them and interpret them. I have found these experiences some of the most insightful of all experiences.
As of now you state your experience has been limited in the Astral so your practice will probably reflect this experience, we are all on our own paths, best not to impose our paths on others, although sharing is love

with compassion

[Tony]

Just because I ask a question, does not mean I do not understand. I practice from the Book of the Dead
I always enjoy your posts but I must ask
If you already understand, why ask the question? What is your intent with asking that question?
Do you think that a question can be leading? Can be manipulative? Can have an agenda?
And do you believe that your understanding can be deepened, or do you see it as a finality, i.e. is your mind open
I have had a lot of experience in the Astral realm and it is not something I choose to do ( although you could debate that I made the choice somewhere), if you have those experiences you will wish to meditate on them and interpret them. I have found these experiences some of the most insightful of all experiences.
As of now you state your experience has been limited in the Astral so your practice will probably reflect this experience, we are all on our own paths, best not to impose our paths on others, although sharing is love with compassion

Somebody asked me about astral travel in a PM. I said I would start a thread to see what other people came up with.
I personally have no interest in it as a practice, because I already have a lot of other practice commitments to do!
But I was wondering whether it was similar to the rainbow body spoken of in Tibetan Buddhism.

Regards
Tony

[Tarka the Duck]

If you already understand, why ask the question? What is your intent with asking that question?
Do you think that a question can be leading? Can be manipulative? Can have an agenda?
And do you believe that your understanding can be deepened, or do you see it as a finality, i.e. is your mind open

I may be misreading your post Dorjezigzag, but it has an air of suspicion about it. Apologies if this is not the case.
Asking a question to hear other's experiences and views can be done without agendas, manipulation or a desire to lead.
Couldn't it be an indication of an open mind?


best not to impose our paths on others, although sharing is love
I'd be interested to hear how would you define the difference.

Thanks
Kathie

[Jake]

I think that part of the problem is that folks have put the OBE and Astral Projection up on some mystical, magical platform, when it should not be, not at all. It is a completely natural human potential for everybody.
I suspect that it is another example of folks putting up barriers for themselves.

If I go a month or so without having an OBE, I start to feel a little, well,,, estranged. Perhaps you are right, Tony. Perhaps I need this experience in my life.

I know that when I first started experiencing the paralysis and the vibrations and the intense Energy Body Sensations that come just before an 'exit', it completely freaked me out. I was in bloody fear and terror for many years regarding what I was experiencing, I promise, I NEVER ASKED FOR ANY OF THIS!!!

I remember being in Kindergarten, and wondering when the teacher was going to start the lessons on vibrations, and flying and what it all meant. Of course that never happened. The main reason that I ever wanted to 'go public' with my experiences is because I do not want anyone to have to go through what I went through. It sucked! I thought that maybe if we shined a bit of light on the subject, then maybe we could loosen some of the stigma regarding OBE and Astral Projection, and therefore, remove some of the underlying fear regarding this event.

I had not experienced the fully conscious exit projection until I was 17 years old. But starting at about 4 years old, I was experiencing sleep paralysis, intense energy body sensations, vibrations and menacing presence in my room. With all of the information out there about alien abduction, I naturally latched onto THAT as the answer.

I foresee a future where small children do not have to go through that. It is time to be more responsible with what we know regarding the Astral. This experience is being locked away because of the stigma and fear surrounding it.

I am a grown adult now! Nobody can tell me what it is that I am experiencing. NOBODY!!!

When someone comes along and insists that this experience is not REAL, I don't get mad or defensive, (maybe a little) i smile, lovingly because I know that it IS real.

It is like early on in human evolution, when people first started seeing colors. How does the person who is suddenly seeing brilliant reds and oranges and yellows and greens,, describe it to the others? How does this person even know that others do not see colors too? Of course, we all see colors, now. I was well into my teens before I started realizing that nobody else was having these experiences!!!

I will be honest here,,, I have only 'induced' (for lack of a better word) this event a handful of times. They are mostly spontaneous, yet re-occurring.

There is alot to be learned regarding meditation and trance-work and energy-work.


Meditation is a method to discover ones true nature. It leads to the non-physical, which with practice is used when the breath stops, of this physical body. The intention then is to go to a higher realm, or somewhere to continue training.

Are you SURE that you are not having OBEs???

I have written at length regarding the 'astral training grounds' that exist. Astral projection is not a required avenue to take. But I tell you,,, I stand here today knowing that I am more than my physical body,, knowing that death is an illusion, knowing that physical reality is an illusion,, knowing the fruits of transcending fear,, knowing that the only limits that I have, are the ones that I put in place myself,, knowing that physical earth-human life existence is only one aspect of a greater reality,, knowing that there is an amazing story unfolding, and that I am a part of it,, and this all came, via my transcending my own fears and embracing the path that was laid before me. These are not beliefs, but KNOWNS!

And I did it without the reliance on Government, or Science, or Religion, or MONEY! I think that it will become more relevant as time goes on.

I never wanted to get into any philisophical debates over the reality of the event. My main focus was to try and help folks through the turmoil (if any) of their own Astral events.

Fear is the mind-killer. (to quote from Dune.) And it is directly responsible for why we, as a group, have not embraced this untapped potential.

I do not claim to be telepathic, I cannot move things with my mind, I am not a great healer (although I understand the energy body counterpart, more and more each day and the connection to healing the physical) I cannot teleport my physical body, I cannot commune with higher beings,,, But I can transcend the physical and project myself into the Astral. And that is an amazing experience that I will appreciate until this aspect of self experiences its final exit.

I suspect that if Astral Projection is something that you want to experience, then you WILL. Don't ask me why EVERYBODY does not have the re-occurring OBE.. I do not know! I am working on it! :)

This is not a subject of 'passing fancy' for me. It is central to my life,,, (again, not by my asking.) At some point, I realized that I have to 'take the wheel', and accept the challenge of understanding it for myself.

And what an amazing ride it has been!!!

[Tony]

Thank you all for your genuine responses, I'm sure it with help others that were confused about the subject.

Tony

[Tarka the Duck]

I'd really like to say thank you to the people on this thread who have done such a great job of explaining their experiences.

It seems that these experiences often differ: why do people think that is?
Could it be that some are describing lucid dreaming rather than astral travel?
Could someone please clarify for me the difference between OBE and astral projection?

Jake - a brilliant explanation...thanks. Can I ask a couple of practical questions?
As these happen spontaneously, can you stop them?
What happens to your physical body while you are travelling?
How often does it happen to you?
Have you had a problem with employment/relationships because of this?

Kathie

[Dorjezigzag]

A question such as 'what is your experience of Astral Travel? has no opinion attached to it

When the question also includes

So this pursuit could be a total distraction. Also, talking about it conjures up false hopes in others.
The whole point for sentient beings is to become free of distraction, so we can realise our true nature

The question can be interpreted as a leading question especially when little of the potential positives of astral travel are discussed.

I did not feel confortable sharing my Astral xperiences in this thread ( I would not want to distract them!), I do not know if others felt the same.

Of course I am not 'suspicious' of Tony, I am just questioning the particular intent



If you already understand, why ask the question? What is your intent with asking that question?
Do you think that a question can be leading? Can be manipulative? Can have an agenda?
And do you believe that your understanding can be deepened, or do you see it as a finality, i.e. is your mind open

I may be misreading your post Dorjezigzag, but it has an air of suspicion about it. Apologies if this is not the case.
Asking a question to hear other's experiences and views can be done without agendas, manipulation or a desire to lead.
Couldn't it be an indication of an open mind?


best not to impose our paths on others, although sharing is love
I'd be interested to hear how would you define the difference.

Thanks
Kathie

[Tarka the Duck]

Thanks for the reply DZZ - Tony has explained why he started the thread in post 73.

Kathie

[bearcow]

But I was wondering whether it was similar to the rainbow body spoken of in Tibetan Buddhism

no, the rainbow body is something way beyond the ability to astral project. You are essentially a living buddha if you have achieved the rainbow body.


I suspect that if Astral Projection is something that you want to experience, then you WILL. Don't ask me why EVERYBODY does not have the re-occurring OBE.. I do not know! I am working on it!


The wu chi plays a great part in spontaneous projections. i believe Robert Bruce calls it the astral wind. the synchronicity of its movement interacting with your astral body is what propels you to the different realms in the astral.

Sometimes it is not good to astral project too much, as it burns a lot of jing.

everybody technically astral projects in a sense when they sleep because it is necessary for the astral body to disassociate from the physical in order to re charge itself. to use a analogy, sleep is the process of gathering wood for the fire of the mind to burn off during the next day's activities. sleep is a unconscious projection, the seat of consciousness internalizes its focus inside, usually residing in the area corresponding to the liver in the astral body. the same problem confronts those who wish to astral project at will, on command. they must have a supply of "wood" available so the focus of the mind can externalize and maintain external focus while projecting. otherwise, the practitioner will wake up, or revert back into the dream state.

[Zampano]

I really wondered when Jake comes back into play, because he has an enormous amount of information regarding astral travel.
Well, glad you are back.vfrtg
I highly recommend to read

http://www.thebookofjacob.webs.com/

it helped me a lot

[another bob]

The problem I have is that when people claim to astral travel - it always sounds so mundane!
They never ever come back with knowledge. ....If you can actually astral travel, please go to a Buddha realm and ask questions and bring back some authentic teachings, so we can all benefit!

Well, my Friend, if you research the matter a bit more thoroughly, you will find that a number of famous Buddhist masters claim to have received teachings in the dream state, from Buddhas in the subtle realms. A great example is the Autobiography and Maxims of Hanshan Deqing, considered one of the four most eminent Buddhist monks in the late Ming Dynasty [1368-1644]. A marvelous read, btw!

As for meself: early on, I would find myself in a kind of school where I was learning how to fly. I always enjoyed these dreams, and as I grew older, I made steady progress in the identification and application of will necessary to fly right. When I entered physical adolescence, I had progressed enough that I was able to graduate from the children's playground flying lessons, but I was not ready for the finals until some years later. For my last test, I lightly bounced off the side of that big rock at Gibraltar and then pushed off into the stratosphere. Free! Weeeeee!

Now, whatever anyone wants to make of that, be my guest. On the life level, however, I realize now that I was learning how to center and then move out from the hara (that point a few inches below the navel), to manifest creative will in the world. Those flying lessons served me well!


"Both sleep and waking are misnomers. We are only dreaming. We dream that we are awake, we dream that we are asleep. The three states are only varieties of the dream state." ~Sri Nisargadatta

:yo:

[Jake]

I'd really like to say thank you to the people on this thread who have done such a great job of explaining their experiences.

It seems that these experiences often differ: why do people think that is?
Could it be that some are describing lucid dreaming rather than astral travel?
Could someone please clarify for me the difference between OBE and astral projection?

Jake - a brilliant explanation...thanks. Can I ask a couple of practical questions?
As these happen spontaneously, can you stop them?
What happens to your physical body while you are travelling?
How often does it happen to you?
Have you had a problem with employment/relationships because of this?

Kathie

Hello, Kathie!

Most people will use the term 'OBE' or 'Astral Projection' to describe the same type of event, because in both cases, you are out of your body. Let me try and explain.

In an OBE, you exit you body, literally! You can look back at your physical body, still laying on the bed or sofa or whatever. initially, you find yourself in a place where you seem to be a ghost or specter roaming around in the real world. Nobody can see or hear you, yet you are still there. There doesn't seem to be too many differences from the real world and the new environment that you find yourself in. There are no magic gardens or misty, angelic manifestations or anything like that, not yet. The environment seems the same, except you are an energetic/ghostly being. Even time passes by normally, just like in the physical. Robert Bruce coined the term 'RTZ' or 'Real Time Zone' to explain this initial environment. Most people who are having these type of events are referring to this 'state' as the OBE state.

Now, beyond the RTZ is a vast expanse of ASTRAL realms. Most projectors will only be able to stay in RTZ for about 30 seconds to a couple of minutes or so before the event phases into a more ASTRAL (less dense, physically) type of projection. Any projection beyond RTZ will be know as more of an ASTRAL projection. Kind of confusing, I know. Many projectors will never experience RTZ,,, but they will still refer to their experience as an OBE,, that is fine. We still have yet to agree on language that represents what it is we are experiencing.

In the Astral Proper, (Beyond RTZ) many things that are experienced, are done so beyond the human belief system 'filters' that we are stuck in, while in the physical modes of thinking. Also, in the Astral Proper, Time as does not pass in the same manner. It is easier and more natural to remember an RTZ projection, or OBE, because the environment is much the same as in the physical, albeit quite a bit less dense. Once you travel into the Astral Proper,,, you are more likely to forget the experience altogether, once you phase/shift back into the physical mode. Have you ever woke up from a dream and had the memory of it slip away, even while you were laying there remembering it? It is the same with OBE and Astral Projection. Memory is very fickle.

Also, the condition of ones energy body (not astral body) plays a major role in what we experience while out of body, and how and why we can't remember our experiences. We have an energy body counterpart to our physical bodies. This is where the Chakra system comes into play. For example,,, I could have a 'brow center' exit or a 'heart center' exit or a 'crown center' exit, etc... if I happen to have an underdeveloped brow center, then I will lose 'vision' altogether while OOB. The energy body systems are a counterpart to the physical body, and stay with the physical body at all times. The Astral Body (for lack of better terminology) is an energy 'copy' of the physical, and is released as the energy body triggers the appropriate signals. It is quite natural.

At this point, a 'mind split' occurs, and you are in two 'places' at once. Your forward mental focus can either stay with the physical body (paralyzed and vibrating out of control) or it can venture along with the Astral Body. The truth is that you are experiencing both at the same time, it is just that your physical filters will not except and/or experience both perspectives simultaneously. Your body is never left empty!!! This is the main reason that people do not remember their projections, because there are two sets of experiences fighting for which one will be 'remembered'. In other words, if you find yourself paralyzed and experiencing intense vibrations and energetic sensations, then your astral double is out and about... I will usually 'force an exit' and rejoin with my non-physical counterpart that is off on a journey. That is why lots of projectors will wake up and find themselves in the middle of a projection that is already underway. (the same way that one might find themselves in a dream that is already underway.)

To answer some of yer questions. Please keep in mind that I can only speak from my own experience.


As these happen spontaneously, can you stop them?

I can choose not to exit, during an intense energy body episode, but NO,,, i cannot stop it once the cycle has began. There is an energy event that is occurring that will build and peak and then fade away. The easiest point of exit is when the event peaks. Again, this energy event seems to occur spontaneously, usually while waking rather than going to sleep. I have heard of the Kundalini event. I do not think this is the same thing. I could be wrong.


What happens to your physical body while you are travelling?
Nothing! It is either sleeping peacefully, or awake, experiencing intense vibrations and paralysis. Physicality is only one aspect of self. Likewise, so is your astral body counterpart. Somewhere there is a 'higher self' looking down on it all, smiling.


How often does it happen to you?

It used to happen several times a week! nowadays it is happening about 3 or 4 times in a month. But, I do not practice or try and induce the event. I find that when i 'buckle down' and meditate daily and do energy-work and trance-work, that they happen more often, yet I still cannot control WHEN it will happen. I can set the stage, but I still have to wait for the next event. I keep a list of goals that I try to get to once I find myself out of body. I only have about 30 seconds to a minute to get to my goals, as the OBE turns into a more Astral event very quickly. (Part of the reason that it is damn difficult to prove it!)


Have you had a problem with employment/relationships because of this?

Yes!! Of course. I learned at a very young age not to talk about it. I have always hidden my journals and notes. This world can be very cruel, and unforgiving. Yet I managed to embrace it. Nowadays I am not afraid to let mee little light shine. Up until recently, I have regretted it EVERY TIME that I told someone about it. I can tell you that the numbers of folks who are allowing themselves to ponder these things have grown greatly. I can talk freely about it now. Times are 'a' changing.

I have my little piece of the puzzle, and I am hanging on for dear life.

Our higher selves are reaching out for us, as much as we are reaching out for it... We are bridging the gap, and the OBE and Astral projection experiences are a manifestation of that.

I believe that this is only the beginning. I also believe that if Earth Humans are projecting into the Astral, then so are advanced races all throughout the physical realities. The most likely place for 'contact' will be the Astral.

Yet, I digress. Thank you, Kathie for the opportunity to approach these subjects with you all. Again, this stuff is not just a passing fancy for me... it is central to my experience.

Love you all,,, Jake.

[Jake]

Another bob said... As for meself: early on, I would find myself in a kind of school where I was learning how to fly. I always enjoyed these dreams, and as I grew older, I made steady progress in the identification and application of will necessary to fly right. When I entered physical adolescence, I had progressed enough that I was able to graduate from the children's playground flying lessons, but I was not ready for the finals until some years later. For my last test, I lightly bounced off the side of that big rock at Gibraltar and then pushed off into the stratosphere. Free! Weeeeee!


Ha! Beautiful... I have a chapter in mee book called, "Welcome to Flight School"... you have described it wonderfully. Thank you... Jake.

[Tony]

Recognising the death process.
This is a Tibetan Bardo supplication by Kunga Paljor. Translated by Gerardo Abboud.

It is a short prayer, but it also describes the process of so-called death, the intermediate state and reincarnation. You may think its all rubbish, that's ok, it doesn't hurt to glance through it. It does need a commentary to go with it, but this maybe helpful on its own, though there is more details available, from other sources. My basic source comes from Trungpa's Tibetan Book of the Dead, but I have been to many teachings on the subject.

It is basically is a reminder of what to lookout for.

One of the problems I have found in life, is that you cannot ask questions on a subject you did not know existed. Basically if one can recognise that everything is our own projection, we can either become enlightened or go to a higher realm to finish ones practice.

We have all been through this before but simply forget. We forget because we still believe and hold onto everything as being real/solid. It is that simple. There is more to this reincarnation business than meets the eye. I suppose it could seem like a nightmare, if you believe this is all to be real!

The main point being everything is a projection of our minds. In buddhism one can practice dream yoga, it is one of the six doctrines of Naropa. If one can practice this correctly, one will be more stable during the Bardo periods. The visions one sees will depend on one propensity and how we personally translate an experience.


Namo mahamudraya,

1. Comprehending all phenomena as illusory,
Free from impure illusion, you discovered the pure kayas.
Leader who guide illusory beings,
To your illusory form I go for refuge.

2. Lord,who has an illusory body,
Bless me and all beings tricked by illusion,
So that, undeceived by illusory phenomena,
We recognise the nature of illusion.

3. At the time of discarding this transient illusory body,
Bless us so that by cutting all ties of attachment, aversion and grasping,
And resting naturally in unfabricated mind essence,
We take death as the path.

4. At death, outer phenomena cease:
Sight and the rest of the five senses gradually stop,
And forms and the rest of the objects dissolve one by one.
When this happens, bless us to recognise the stages of dissolution.

5. As earth,water,fire and air dissolve into consciousness,
Vitality wanes, one is thirsty and mouth ans nose dry up,
warmth fades, breathing shortens and rattles.
At that time, bless us to take the pain of dying as the path.

6. Consciousness dissolves into luminosity and the outer breath stops,
While the inner breath continues during the four instants:
Appearance, increase, attainment, and great luminosity.
Bless us to recognise them, one by one.

7. The inner sign of appearance is smoke like, the outer sign the rising moon,
And the thirty-three concepts deriving from aggression subside.
Bless us that, at this time,
We remain clear, alert and determined.

8. The inner sign of increase, is like fireflies, the outer sign the rising sun,
And the forty concepts deriving from passion subside.
Bless us that, at this time,
Aware and mindful, we recognise them.

9. The inner sign of attainment is like a burning lamp,
The outer is blackness, like an eclipse,
And the seven concepts deriving from ignorance subside.
Bless us that, at this time, we recognise all with perfect attention.

10. When the fourth instant, the great luminosity, dawns,
The inner sign is like a cloudless sky,
And the outer sign is like the break of day.
Bless us that, at this time, mother and child luminosity merge.

11. If consciousness does not rest there but instead shifts
To the navel, in between eyebrows, cranium, nose, ears,
eyes urinary tract, anus or mouth,
Bless us to block these nine and open the one exit.

12. Gods of desire, form or formless; or gods, jealous gods,
Humans, animals, hell beings or hungry ghosts;
Bless us that we close the doors to rebirth as these,
And dakas and dakinis welcome us in the celestial realms.

13. If consciousness were to wonder in the bardo,
Then, not knowing we are dead, we will despair of relatives and friend,
Who don't respond even though we want to relate to them.
Bless us that , at this time,the ties of attachment and aversion are severed.

14. When, endowed with full sense faculties and miraculous karmic power,
One may go anywhere unimpeded,
Except to Mount Meru, Vajrasana and one's mother's womb,
Bless us that we know it all to be an illusion.

15. Sun and moon are invisible and the body casts no shadow.
Just by thinking, one can go around the billion solar systems,
Helpless, like a feather blown about by the wind.
When this happens, bless us to master our own minds.

16. One feeds on smell, and the mind rapidly flickers.
When myriad deluded experiences occur,
And afraid and sad we become depressed,
Bless us that we recognise these as delusions.

17. At times, remembrance is extremely clear,
But immediately one forgets,
And one doubts whether one is dead or alive.
When this happens, bless us to know we are unequivocally dead.

18. Three and a half days after death,
One realises one is dead,
And, depressed and disheartened, seek a refuge.
Bless us to know, at that time, our own awareness to be the refuge.

19. When we realise that state is the bardo,
Visualizing our body as the deity, then meditate on luminosity,
And further meditating on their indivisibility,
Bless us that, by this, the pure illusory form arises.

20. When terrifies at collapsing mountains, raging oceans, blazing forests,
And the sound resembling the howling gale at the end of times,
Roaring together with a thousand thunders,
Bless us to perceive these as the natural sounds of reality.

21. When the five coloured light rays clash and shine,
And from seeming spheres of light of all sizes,
Appear terrifying wrathful forms roaring orders to strike and kill,
Bless us to perceive these, our own projections, as the deity.

22. When, terrified, we feel we are plummeting
Into the abyss of the whiteness, redness and blackness,
Arising from passion, aggression and ignorance,
Bless us to perceive this, our own projection, as pure.

23. When the body of our next birth takes form,
And the white, red, yellow, blue and black lights,
Of gods, humans, animals, hungry ghosts and hell beings appear,
Bless us to know these five pathways one by one.

24. When seeing gods enjoying sensual pleasures in celestial palaces,
Lakes adorned with swans, royal bulls and horses,
And in a mansion our parents in union,
Bless us that attraction, aversion and jealousy are purified.

25. When, driven by gale, rain, clouds heat and cold,
We approach a cave, a ravine a wooden log, and so forth,
And feel like entering them to find refuge.
Bless us that we know these to be bad places for rebirth.

26. Seeing house of slaughter, fire or iron,
Attracted to them, we feel like entering.
Bless us to recognise our own nature and be fearless,
And so turn away from these bad places for rebirth.

27. Envy and jealousy in the case of birth through womb or egg;
Attraction to smell and taste in the case of birth by warmth and moisture;
Or attachment to the places of miraculous birth;
When these arise, bless us to have no desire, aversion and craving.

28. When seeing one's parents, or the other modes of birth,
Bless us that, free of attraction or aversion, knowing these to be illusory
And remembering the recognition of the natural state,
Without clinging, we close the door to the womb.

29. If, unsuccessful, we are to take birth,
Bless us that, upon remembering,
We are born in Sukhavati, Tu****a or Abhirati;
Or as a chakavartin, or in the bramin caste.

30. As soon as we are born, may we remember our previous life,
And have the fortune of practising the Mahayana Dharma.
Through love, may we generate the purely altruistic attitude,
And persevering, quickly attain enlightenment.

31. By the blessing power of the buddhas and bodhisattvas,
The pure nature of absolute reality,
And also our pure wishes,
May we achieve these aspirations as expressed.


(When it talks of the red and white elements, these are the reversing elements of the mother and father seeds. I think the red descends from the throat, and the white ascend from the navel. They meet in the heart centre and that is when a blackness occurs, so from then one is unconscious for three and a half days.)

[Tony]

The problem I have is that when people claim to astral travel - it always sounds so mundane!
They never ever come back with knowledge. ....If you can actually astral travel, please go to a Buddha realm and ask questions and bring back some authentic teachings, so we can all benefit!

Well, my Friend, if you research the matter a bit more thoroughly, you will find that a number of famous Buddhist masters claim to have received teachings in the dream state, from Buddhas in the subtle realms. A great example is the Autobiography and Maxims of Hanshan Deqing, considered one of the four most eminent Buddhist monks in the late Ming Dynasty [1368-1644]. A marvelous read, btw!

As for meself: early on, I would find myself in a kind of school where I was learning how to fly. I always enjoyed these dreams, and as I grew older, I made steady progress in the identification and application of will necessary to fly right. When I entered physical adolescence, I had progressed enough that I was able to graduate from the children's playground flying lessons, but I was not ready for the finals until some years later. For my last test, I lightly bounced off the side of that big rock at Gibraltar and then pushed off into the stratosphere. Free! Weeeeee!

Now, whatever anyone wants to make of that, be my guest. On the life level, however, I realize now that I was learning how to center and then move out from the hara (that point a few inches below the navel), to manifest creative will in the world. Those flying lessons served me well!


"Both sleep and waking are misnomers. We are only dreaming. We dream that we are awake, we dream that we are asleep. The three states are only varieties of the dream state." ~Sri Nisargadatta

:yo:

Hello Bob,
I am only trying to ascertain whether what is called the astral body has anything to do with what is called dream yoga.
Yes, masters who practice the six doctrines of Naropa do attain unique powers, but I'm not asking about that.

[fox.mulder]

Hi peoples

About 6 months ago i was interested in what i found out is called "lucid dreaming". Since then i have had about 5-6 "exits". They seemed to be closely related to what is being discussed here. I have been trying to perfect the method called "WILD" but have yet to make it happen and all my exits have happened during dreaming. One however was initiated using a reality check method.

Anyway this type of experience was one of those things you read about but cant accept as fact until you experience it. One of the last exits i did was so real at first i didnt believe it was not my waking reality. It really was as realistic as I am typing here and now. I actually was concerned of not being able to return home. In fact as I focussed on trying to return i "teleported" to another location.

I don't think such experience will help humanity as a whole but only to the individual. However when alot of individuals experience this then maybe humanity as a whole may change. Who knows. My thoughts are that as one becomes more "awake" these things start to happen and maybe one day one ends up in a more "mature" reality where there are no more wankers and fascist moderators around.

I am only a beginner at this as I seem to be doing one exit a month. But when i get "there" it is the most spectactular of experiences. It beats any walk in the park here.

I don't know how it works i just know that it does. The Robert Monroe books were very interesting i recommmend one reading them.

FM

[mahalall]

Thanks Tony,

Similar found communication and expressions of astral travel described in Avalon as intriguing. I think there are practise-insight overlaps but viewed in different ways.

"without out any control, we end up were where karma blows us"
-harness the energy and steer the ship we were you want to go or are attuned too.

some years ago if you would have suggested bhanda's (espescially moola) and mantra, i would have dismissed and laughed at the suggestion, however having applied them at times, on or with sitting practise or physical activities, they have been valuable tools that have provided interesting insights into realms outside of the mundane. (although would be seem as a stop over place-square 76 on the snakes and ladder board !),

For ever in Shangrila (haha), "Om mani Padme Hum"

http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f37/the-secrets-and-science-of-mula-bhanda-7673.html
http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Moksha-Patamu.htm

[joedjemal]

Thanks Tony,

Similar found communication and expressions of astral travel described in Avalon as intriguing. I think there are practise-insight overlaps but viewed in different ways.

"without out any control, we end up were where karma blows us"
-harness the energy and steer the ship we were you want to go or are attuned too.

some years ago if you would have suggested bhanda's (espescially moola) and mantra, i would have dismissed and laughed at the suggestion, however having applied them at times, on or with sitting practise or physical activities, they have been valuable tools that have provided interesting insights into realms outside of the mundane. (although would be seem as a stop over place-square 76 on the snakes and ladder board !),

For ever in Shangrila (haha), "Om mani Padme Hum"

http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f37/the-secrets-and-science-of-mula-bhanda-7673.html
http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Moksha-Patamu.htm

There's an almost identical exercise to that yoga exercise in qi gong. I was thinking of posting it in the qi gong exercises thread but decided to wait for a while. Maybe it's time to continue as that was going to be the next one posted.

[Sebastion]

Jake, you have brought a great deal of understanding to this thread and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for bringing forward so much information. Your addition to this thread is a strong validation and clarification of what many us have been trying to say in our own way!

[jessamy99]

Dear Pie'n'eal,
Trungpa was a very dear friend of mine when I was a teenager.
He was a wonderful soul.
We had some great discussions and plenty of laughter.
I loved him very much!!
Jessamy.

[astralflyer]

In the past 2 years I have been on many spontaneous astral travels whilst being conscious, mostly in the daytime and fully re-countable. I guess this really started years and years ago unbeknown to me at the time (i didn't really know what "astral travel" was), but i never managed to get fully out of the body and independent for reasons I'll make clear.

In the past I had a few "incidents" which I couldn't understand, and where pretty scary. Sometimes before sleep yet not awake I could hear a faint buzzing noise which got louder and louder until it kinda filled my entire being inside and out, like a huge swarm of bees, this was very scary and is really indescribable to anyone who hasn't experienced it. So i guess i got scared and snapped out of my trying to get to sleep, had a coffee and went back to bed later. This continued for years (although scarcely, usually if I hadn't eaten for a while or was ill)

Anyhow, on a few of the instances there was a gentle but very clear voice telling me not to be scared, kinda coming from behind me so I went through "the buzzing" which grew to a crescendo then stopped suddenly, followed by a soft "clunk" noise then an awful sensation of falling, similar in sensation to that which you occasionally get in dreams. Again i got scared and the whole thing stopped.

Years past, this would happen once in a blue moon, then last year things really began to move up a gear, after a great trauma in which i lost all my family, home, job... well everything... I was left with... me in my raw state, no place to go, no past, no future. I guess you could say I was "in the now" albeit reluctantly. Anyhow, I get this strange feeling usually during the daytime, kinda like a heavy tiredness but not actually a physical or mental tired, its hard to describe. A voice would suggest that I go lie down for a minute, which I do, on my back, hands by the side or on the solar plexus. Within a very short space of time the buzzing noise comes (the rise of the Kundalini Energy), whilst in a conscious yet relaxed state, only this time accompanied by a very defined voice asking me to "go through it, don't be frightened", and again through the horrible falling sensation the same voice, same message.

Then it happened. I was actually out the body, literally, fully conscious, fully awake and wow did it feel good, much more conscious and awake than in the body yet this is impossible to describe. The "guide" voice was still there and said to "think" where you wanted to go, so naturally the first thing wanted to do was go see my children, and wow you can fly, i mean really fly - they weren't far off the mark with "Superman", and you can see, really see 360 degrees. Over and under cloud layers, zipping over towns like the speed-up footage of a low flying jet. Seeing a few things that are, well, strange like black teardrop shaped "craft" "parked" up just above the cloud layer (the only report I have seen of these very unique looking craft were from Pane Andov), but I'm not really interested in them and continue on the journey to see my children, landing in a petrol (gas) station near their school a little like Arni in the start of Terminator movie (only i was clothed....and I'm not built like Arni.

One of my children is extremely clairvoyant with amazing powers Spiritual so I know if i contact him he will be able to see and hear me and pass the message on to the other two. Anyway, needless to say this trip was the first of many, I cannot go into detail about what was said or what i saw on that level only that they miss me tremendously. There was a trip which was very strange, it happened in a hotel in Rishikesh, India, on the banks of the Ganges in mid March 2011. Briefly I was approached by a tall, slim older gentleman in a pristine suit, fine grey hair and blue eyes, who asked me if i knew who he was, to which I stupidly replied "errr, are you evil?" he laughed gently and said no, then handed me a greetings card. The envelope was black, jet black and he gestured for me to deliver it across the street to a house, which turned out to be my "old" house, he said something weird "its your anniversary", but it wasnt. I walked to the house and heard my children playing inside, but outside was the intended recipient, to which i handed this strange envelope, much to their abject fear and shock.

The strange man and envelope and the black craft was the weirdest thing that happened, if you like weird stuff. Everything else is pretty normal in terms of the Earth, buildings, people etc. I found it impossible to make most people actually hear or see me despite my best efforts. Only some could interact with me; those who are astral travelling or those in the third dimension who have clairvoyant skills.

Sometimes everything is... a little different, physically I mean. The same town, same roads yet, a little different somehow. The general architecture would be the same, same size, same classification of design yet built slightly differently. This makes me think that the astral travel I was having was to the 4th dimension, or a parallel world, I guess this subject matter was aired in the Matrix movie.

I guess whats most impressive is the feeling you have when you get back, like every cell in you body is "buzzing" and "fresh" or "clean" like you have never felt. Thats really amazing, like gravity has little effect and you seem to glide effortlessly around. Sad to say this wears of after 30 minutes to an hour then you feel like you are walking around in treacle again, pushed down by gravity with limited senses and a head full of.... thoughts.

Im no regular Pane Andov wormhole-diving ET-bashing astral superman, and I have little interest in so-called ETs, so I guess its not really that exiting, (apart from black helicopter circling my house for 7 years, usually at some un-Godly hour in the morning! or the military drone aircraft I caught monitoring my home just before Christmas 2011. Sometimes when they is excessive spy-copter activity my body "freezes" and I cannot move a muscle! but I fight it with all my strength, as soon as I muster the mental energy to move as little as a finger, it releases me.

Although I have spoken to Pane about the black teardrop things above the clouds, he informs me, in his typically concise manner, "not to worry they are from the moon, but they are all going to leave soon" (whatever that means). Since these trips I have read Pane's "Extroadinary Powers in Humans" and must say it really is the only text I have come across which is genuine and written from personal experience . You can still find it on free pdf download, but would suggest this one deserve a place on the bookshelf.

Anyway, I can categorically say that this 3D life is NOT real, and in order to escape it we must let go of it, totally, and surrender. If we are still here, then we must still have an attachment to it, and conversely if we attached to it then we cannot move on. Its really surprising just how many attachments we have. I don't really believe there is an easy way to astral travel, no handbook, no technique, no pill, potion or "tool", for me it came with surrender, being in "the now" and finally realizing that everything in my life past and present and future is....fake, a con, an illusion, never really happened and doesn't exist and that absolutely nothing material, no-matter how small, can do anything other than take you away from your true self.♥.

P.S. I'm finding there is more than a little confusion about the subject of "Astral Travel" and "Astral Projection". According to experience, "Projection" is the process whereby a "travel" is done within the mind of the practitioner, and not actually leaving the confines of the body. In Astral Projection it is not possible to interact with or communicate with people on or through the astral / 4th dimension, but moreover it can better be described as "Remote Viewing".

Again, a great text which may help people understand these experiences is Pane Andov's "Extroadinary Powers in Humans" pdf. I know there are countless books on the subject, but again, if it has a glossy cover with fancy artwork, and the author is selling techniques, potions or lotions, then avoid.


All my Love.

AF

[Dorjezigzag]

Wow, Thats quite an entrance Astral Flyer. Looking forward to more posts on Avalon!

In the past 2 years I have been on many spontaneous astral travels whilst being conscious, mostly in the daytime and fully re-countable. I guess this really started years and years ago unbeknown to me at the time (i didn't really know what "astral travel" was), but i never managed to get fully out of the body and independent for reasons I'll make clear.

In the past I had a few "incidents" which I couldn't understand, and where pretty scary. Sometimes before sleep yet not awake I could hear a faint buzzing noise which got louder and louder until it kinda filled my entire being inside and out, like a huge swarm of bees, this was very scary and is really indescribable to anyone who hasn't experienced it. So i guess i got scared and snapped out of my trying to get to sleep, had a coffee and went back to bed later. This continued for years (although scarcely, usually if I hadn't eaten for a while or was ill)

Anyhow, on a few of the instances there was a gentle but very clear voice telling me not to be scared, kinda coming from behind me so I went through "the buzzing" which grew to a crescendo then stopped suddenly, followed by a soft "clunk" noise then an awful sensation of falling, similar in sensation to that which you occasionally get in dreams. Again i got scared and the whole thing stopped.

Years past, this would happen once in a blue moon, then last year things really began to move up a gear, after a great trauma in which i lost all my family, home, job... well everything... I was left with... me in my raw state, no place to go, no past, no future. I guess you could say I was "in the now" albeit reluctantly. Anyhow, I get this strange feeling usually during the daytime, kinda like a heavy tiredness but not actually a physical or mental tired, its hard to describe. A voice would suggest that I go lie down for a minute, which I do, on my back, hands by the side or on the solar plexus. Within a very short space of time the buzzing noise comes (the rise of the Kundalini Energy), whilst in a conscious yet relaxed state, only this time accompanied by a very defined voice asking me to "go through it, don't be frightened", and again through the horrible falling sensation the same voice, same message.

Then it happened. I was actually out the body, literally, fully conscious, fully awake and wow did it feel good, much more conscious and awake than in the body yet this is impossible to describe. The "guide" voice was still there and said to "think" where you wanted to go, so naturally the first thing wanted to do was go see my children, and wow you can fly, i mean really fly - they weren't far off the mark with "Superman", and you can see, really see 360 degrees. Over and under cloud layers, zipping over towns like the speed-up footage of a low flying jet. Seeing a few things that are, well, strange like black teardrop shaped "craft" "parked" up just above the cloud layer (the only report I have seen of these very unique looking craft were from Pane Andov), but I'm not really interested in them and continue on the journey to see my children, landing in a petrol (gas) station near their school a little like Arni in the start of Terminator movie (only i was clothed....and I'm not built like Arni.

One of my children is extremely clairvoyant with amazing powers Spiritual so I know if i contact him he will be able to see and hear me and pass the message on to the other two. Anyway, needless to say this trip was the first of many, I cannot go into detail about what was said or what i saw on that level only that they miss me tremendously. There was a trip which was very strange, it happened in a hotel in Rishikesh, India, on the banks of the Ganges in mid March 2011. Briefly I was approached by a tall, slim older gentleman in a pristine suit, fine grey hair and blue eyes, who asked me if i knew who he was, to which I stupidly replied "errr, are you evil?" he laughed gently and said no, then handed me a greetings card. The envelope was black, jet black and he gestured for me to deliver it across the street to a house, which turned out to be my "old" house, he said something weird "its your anniversary", but it wasnt. I walked to the house and heard my children playing inside, but outside was the intended recipient, to which i handed this strange envelope, much to their abject fear and shock.

The strange man and envelope and the black craft was the weirdest thing that happened, if you like weird stuff. Everything else is pretty normal in terms of the Earth, buildings, people etc. I found it impossible to make most people actually hear or see me despite my best efforts. Only some could interact with me; those who are astral travelling or those in the third dimension who have clairvoyant skills.

Sometimes everything is... a little different, physically I mean. The same town, same roads yet, a little different somehow. The general architecture would be the same, same size, same classification of design yet built slightly differently. This makes me think that the astral travel I was having was to the 4th dimension, or a parallel world, I guess this subject matter was aired in the Matrix movie.

I guess whats most impressive is the feeling you have when you get back, like every cell in you body is "buzzing" and "fresh" or "clean" like you have never felt. Thats really amazing, like gravity has little effect and you seem to glide effortlessly around. Sad to say this wears of after 30 minutes to an hour then you feel like you are walking around in treacle again, pushed down by gravity with limited senses and a head full of.... thoughts.

Im no regular Pane Andov wormhole-diving ET-bashing astral superman, and I have little interest in so-called ETs, so I guess its not really that exiting, (apart from black helicopter circling my house for 7 years, usually at some un-Godly hour in the morning! or the military drone aircraft I caught monitoring my home just before Christmas 2011. Sometimes when they is excessive spy-copter activity my body "freezes" and I cannot move a muscle! but I fight it with all my strength, as soon as I muster the mental energy to move as little as a finger, it releases me.

Although I have spoken to Pane about the black teardrop things above the clouds, he informs me, in his typically concise manner, "not to worry they are from the moon, but they are all going to leave soon" (whatever that means). Since these trips I have read Pane's "Extroadinary Powers in Humans" and must say it really is the only text I have come across which is genuine and written from personal experience . You can still find it on free pdf download, but would suggest this one deserve a place on the bookshelf.

Anyway, I can categorically say that this 3D life is NOT real, and in order to escape it we must let go of it, totally, and surrender. If we are still here, then we must still have an attachment to it, and conversely if we attached to it then we cannot move on. Its really surprising just how many attachments we have. I don't really believe there is an easy way to astral travel, no handbook, no technique, no pill, potion or "tool", for me it came with surrender, being in "the now" and finally realizing that everything in my life past and present and future is....fake, a con, an illusion, never really happened and doesn't exist and that absolutely nothing material, no-matter how small, can do anything other than take you away from your true self.♥.

P.S. I'm finding there is more than a little confusion about the subject of "Astral Travel" and "Astral Projection". According to experience, "Projection" is the process whereby a "travel" is done within the mind of the practitioner, and not actually leaving the confines of the body. In Astral Projection it is not possible to interact with or communicate with people on or through the astral / 4th dimension, but moreover it can better be described as "Remote Viewing".

Again, a great text which may help people understand these experiences is Pane Andov's "Extroadinary Powers in Humans" pdf. I know there are countless books on the subject, but again, if it has a glossy cover with fancy artwork, and the author is selling techniques, potions or lotions, then avoid.


All my Love.

AF

[another bob]

Anyway, I can categorically say that this 3D life is NOT real, and in order to escape it we must let go of it, totally, and surrender. If we are still here, then we must still have an attachment to it, and conversely if we attached to it then we cannot move on. Its really surprising just how many attachments we have. I don't really believe there is an easy way to astral travel, no handbook, no technique, no pill, potion or "tool", for me it came with surrender, being in "the now" and finally realizing that everything in my life past and present and future is....fake, a con, an illusion, never really happened and doesn't exist and that absolutely nothing material, no-matter how small, can do anything other than take you away from your true self.

Greetings, Friend, and Welcome to the consideration!

Beyond the fact that there is nothing that can actually "take you away from your true self" (since what we really are is not subject to either addition or subtraction), I find your comments do coincide with the recognition granted to me at a critical moment. During the course of a traumatic event in 1984 in which my car went flying over a cliff after impact, I was shown directly that there is no past, present, or future, that in fact nothing has ever happened, and that all my previous concerns were like vague dream fragments that scattered in the light of awareness.

:yo:

[Jake]

Astralflyer... Wow!! Welcome to Avalon. You are most welcome here.

Here is a video that I put together regarding the OBE.. It is my favorite speakers talking about the OBE and Astral Projection. I have it on another thread, I will try and post a link at some point,,, my internet connection is very slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ-QII0CV0M

I hope that you all enjoy it. I could have gone on and on and on, but you get the point. Cheers, all... Jake.

[Maia Gabrial]

For me, astral traveling happens on its own. No matter how hard I concentrate it doesn't happen. Then unexpectedly during meditation (or zoning out for nothing) I travel. Only recently, I visited a Stellan craft. I was met with a smile and allowed to come aboard to watch... I watched one of them sit and meditate! The whole craft felt engulfed in love. The whole trip lasted about a minute, but the benefit was amazing for me....
Anyway, I wish I could travel with intention, but so far it hasn't happened...
Thank you for sharing...

[matissathepissa]

I was able to get confirmation once when i astral traveled. My aunt Kathy died when I was ten yrs old. I am now thirty seven and I traveled and met with her a few yrs ago, so i was around thirty four. I miss her and think about her alot. In my travel I was walking down a dirt road in the woods (it was very beatiful and peaceful). The road split to the left and there was a log cabin, and straight ahead there was another cabin and the road ended. My aunt (aunt by marriage)was walking out from the cabin on the left. I saw her and got very emotional and she hugged me, smiled, and said "Dont worry , I'm with my brother now". When I woke up I called my mother and my aunt and asked if she had a brother. Both of them told me yes she did and that he died when they were kids. I never knew that so that was really great confirmation for me. I still get emotional recalling meeting w/her.

[astralflyer]

Thanks for your reply Maia,

I understand how you "cannot make it happen", so many people are looking for a way to "induce" an "experience", kinda like a drug "hit", but rarely understand the depth to which we need to change our life in order to experience this dimension, simple in words but so difficult in action. For some this experience comes at a huge price that not many are willing to pay, first I was made to die, then be re-born... that's way too much for most of us.

PS. are these "Stellan" craft you mention the black/dark teardrop shaped things above the cloud layers? about say 20/40 feet long. Ive seen a few but never really bothered to go investigate. Quite a few times I have experienced what I suspected to be "abduction" attempts, usually accompanied by very specific sounding "helicopters"? ...needless to say I wasnt having any of it!

Love
AF☼

[astralflyer]

Anyway, I can categorically say that this 3D life is NOT real, and in order to escape it we must let go of it, totally, and surrender. If we are still here, then we must still have an attachment to it, and conversely if we attached to it then we cannot move on. Its really surprising just how many attachments we have. I don't really believe there is an easy way to astral travel, no handbook, no technique, no pill, potion or "tool", for me it came with surrender, being in "the now" and finally realizing that everything in my life past and present and future is....fake, a con, an illusion, never really happened and doesn't exist and that absolutely nothing material, no-matter how small, can do anything other than take you away from your true self.

Greetings, Friend, and Welcome to the consideration!

Beyond the fact that there is nothing that can actually "take you away from your true self" (since what we really are is not subject to either addition or subtraction), I find your comments do coincide with the recognition granted to me at a critical moment. During the course of a traumatic event in 1984 in which my car went flying over a cliff after impact, I was shown directly that there is no past, present, or future, that in fact nothing has ever happened, and that all my previous concerns were like vague dream fragments that scattered in the light of awareness.

:yo:

Wow! that is so amazing, "no past, no present, no future, nothing has ever happened". If we can hold on to that notion every moment of our lives, that must be the ultimate way to... Be. There is no past, present or future, everything that was never actually existed, and everything that is to be has already happened. Round and round the merry-go-round, time we stepped off? The question that begs would be... can we find a way to live were-by we can experience these amazing glimpses as a full-time life experience, without having to go through deeply traumatic times? Maybe the Eastern philosophies of meditation etc are not so far-fetched after all?

Love AF☼

[astralflyer]

The power of Love, grief and loss can project our astral bodies away from our 3D bodies in amazing ways, and in a way, help assure us that there is nothing to fear by death or loss. Those who have never experienced an OBE or astral travel would never understand, and would fight to explain it by "conventional" 3D means, or disprove it entirely, mock it or even have us locked up. But to those who have experienced it, I guess we then see the world world differently, through different eyes, through a more eternal sense. If only we could have that moment forever.

AF☼

[astralflyer]

Thanks Jake, a great collage of yet still a taboo subject. I still find people much more willing and open to talk about ETs and the like, yet the subject of Astral travel is somehow taboo, un-heard of or ridiculous, yet all of us would have done it, at least unconsciously at some point, perhaps not remembering it, conversely we are all capable of being it and doing it if we learn to let go of the distractions of this 3D illusion we find ourselves tangled up in?

Love AF☼

[another bob]

The question that begs would be... can we find a way to live were-by we can experience these amazing glimpses as a full-time life experience, without having to go through deeply traumatic times?

It is our native, or default, position, already -- it's everything else that's a temporary experience.

Just being here -- wherever we are -- offers an amazing glimpse, regardless of the way it might seem through our sleepy eyes.



Maybe the Eastern philosophies of meditation etc are not so far-fetched after all?

Love AF☼

Right -- love is all that matters.

:yo: