Power of Hypnosis and Free Will

[Ilie Pandia]

Hello,

I've just seen a video posted on another thread here at Avalon.

In the video (link below) a young man plays a shooter game that makes him enter a catatonic state and then has a strange experience.

I found that video shocking to say the least, and my first reaction to it was: this cannot possible be for real!!

Here is the link: http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/derren-brown-zombies/136190

I skeptic of this video for the following reason:
- it is after all a TV show and he can say all day long that actors were not used
- the audio signal Deren uses wake up his subject is rather strange. How come that sound wakes him up but not being abducted?!
- at the end the guy get to see what he did and he laughs! In his shoes I'd be shocked to have had my brain hacked like that.
- when the young man looses it his friend just laugh?! no surprise?

So, for those that may have more experience with this, have been to hypnotic show or have been hypnotized or are themselves hypnotist here are some questions:

- what is a catatonic state?
- what is hypnosis?
- is there free will while you're "under"?
- how far can your perception of reality be altered under hypnosis?
- is it conceivable that we under under massive hypnosis right now?
- what happens with your "conscious mind" under hypnosis?
- if this show is "for real" how can we actually trust our mind, and senses?

[DNA]

I have seen one of this guy's videos on another thread, and in that video, he supposedly hypnotizes a mall full of people to all raise there hand at the same time.
I was skeptical of that one, and I have to be skeptical of this one as well.
This has the flavor of the Chris Angel Mind Freak thing.
Staged magician stuff, but I have no idea, that is just my take.


Post Update: Add mentioned video

Okay I found it, it was originally posted by ljwheat

Mall Hypnosis where whole crowd follows the suggestion to raise their hand at same time. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=II2aT9L0Sx8)

[Tarka the Duck]

It's good to be sceptical about such things.
Derren is obviously a showman. We've seen him perform live onstage, close up, and to watch him work is fascinating. The implications of what he does so entertainingly are vast and chilling.

He is well known in the UK for his efforts to expose those he considers to be scam artists, and he also goes a fair way down the road of explaining how he does what he does.
He's published many books about his subject.

It would be great if we could post some more videos but it appears that many are under copyright to Channel 4 and can't be viewed out of the UK.


Staged magician stuff
Of course!! He is a stage magician!! What else would you put it down to?

[Ilie Pandia]

Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

[Tarka the Duck]

For those unfamiliar with him...and as far as I am aware, he's not in the David Blaine/Criss Angel bracket...here's a synopsis from his website.

Dubbed a ‘psychological illusionist’ by the Press, Derren Brown is a performer who combines magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship in order to seemingly predict and control human behaviour, as well as performing mind-bending feats of mentalism.

For the past ten years Derren has created TV and stage performances that have stunned audiences, debunked the paranormal and encouraged many to improve and enhance their own mental abilities. His first show appeared in 2000, Derren Brown: Mind Control, and followed with Trick of the Mind, Trick or Treat and a series of Specials including the controversial Russian Roulette and the hugely popular Events.

For more information on his TV work please click here.

Derren is a keen writer and has penned four books to date. Whilst his first two books, Absolute Magic and Pure Effect, are both out of print his third release Tricks of the Mind spent over 30 weeks on the Amazon best-seller list. His fourth release Confessions of a Conjurer was released in October 2010 – for more details click here.

Derren has consistently stunned audiences across the nation with his live stage shows, earning him a string of award nominations. He has won both the Laurence Olivier Award for Best Entertainment Show, and a Silver Rose d’Or for Variety. A 2011 tour is planned as well as a possible broadway run.

While his performances create the illusion that he has some kind of paranormal powers, Derren is a prominent sceptic and a pronounced atheist. The Blog is a repository of news items that explore these facets of Derren’s persona. The articles are submitted by visitors to the Blog and discussed in the comments sections. A diverse range of topics are covered, encompassing Science, Technology, Art, Magic, Religion and some good old-fashioned silliness.

In addition to his award-winning performances on stage and television, Derren is also an accomplished artist. Specialising in a unique style of caricatured portraiture, Derren’s work has been exhibited at the prestigious Rebecca Hossack Gallery in central London as well as being published in a collected volume of works in which Derren also writes about his passion for the medium and his development as an artist.

[Flash]

Hello,

I've just seen a video posted on another thread here at Avalon.

In the video (link below) a young man plays a shooter game that makes him enter a catatonic state and then has a strange experience.

I found that video shocking to say the least, and my first reaction to it was: this cannot possible be for real!!

Here is the link: http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/derren-brown-zombies/136190

I skeptic of this video for the following reason:
- it is after all a TV show and he can say all day long that actors were not used
- the audio signal Deren uses wake up his subject is rather strange. How come that sound wakes him up but not being abducted?!
- at the end the guy get to see what he did and he laughs! In his shoes I'd be shocked to have had my brain hacked like that.
- when the young man looses it his friend just laugh?! no surprise?

So, for those that may have more experience with this, have been to hypnotic show or have been hypnotized or are themselves hypnotist here are some questions:

- what is a catatonic state?My layman definition: it is a state in which the brain does not respond to external stimuli nor to most internal ones. It is like paralysis with muscle tone however. YOu can put the arm of the catatonic up and it will remain there forever until an external source displace it. Is there consciousness there? I do not know. Is it psychological? Some theories says that a very traumatic choc can lead to catatonic states, I am more inclined to think viral attack. The brain is disconnected from its higher functions (reptilican brain taking care of vital function such as heart beats still working),
- what is hypnosis?We know how hypnosis works, by we do not know what it is exactly. We know it is started with some kind of short circuitry of the sensory inputs. But how can someone else have power over one owns mind? My claim: it has to do with either other dimensional inputs or with the junk DNA or with the black matter in us, or.....
- is there free will while you're "under"?Usually, a normal guy will get out of the hypnotic trance when something is ordered that is in contradiction with his most profound values, beliefs or survival schemes. However, I do not know if it c ould be used to implant new beliefs and values that would then be used to make one lose its free will. My guess is that it could, the proof being these cases in US where the patients was absolutely convinced that their fathers had commited incest at a younger age. It went to court, the dads were condemned, hypnotic transe having been accepted in court, to discover later that the hypnotherapist had inputted unwillingly those beliefs in his patients. Since, finding from hypnotic transe are rejected in court. However, the police still uses it to get information hard to retrieve from witnesses of crime, information not admittable in court.
- how far can your perception of reality be altered under hypnosis?It is a very highly suggestible state. When under hypnosis, you are highly suggestible and suggestion of any kind are easily absorbed. This is a state that one can use to absord information better while sutdying just before an exam for example (auto-hypnosis) or to change one's harmful beliefs. I know quite a few people that do it to themselves for those reasons. It works.
- is it conceivable that we under under massive hypnosis right now?Absolutely, I am 100% sure of it. You can, for example, hypnotise a class to make the information easier to understand (this is the good side of it) or to make the classe belief whatever you want. I was in a classroom once where the teacher told us he would put us under hypnosis. I thought it would not work with me ah ah ah. Well, he had given the order to the class to touch one's elbow at a given signal (in English). BEing French, I had confused elbow with ankle. AT the given signal, everyone in the class unconsciously touched their elbow, and me... my ankle. Afterward the teacher told us what had just happened. Definitly, mass hypnosis through television, medias, and most probably microwaves or HAARP like stuff is possible, as well as increasing the anger levels of a whole country for example.
- what happens with your "conscious mind" under hypnosis?Well, it is mostly under. You can be given the order to remember the session or to forget it, to the will of the hypnotist. Althought if you really want to remember, you may feel somewhat uncomfortable not knowing why and it may come back in dreams for example.
- if this show is "for real" how can we actually trust our mind, and senses?Good point, we mainly cannot. This is why the scientific approach exist in science, you cannot trust the senses or your mind. This is why we should, as human, overcome this hurdle by listening to the deeepest inner self or soul. My opinion.

I did not look at the show because I did not want to be influenced in my answers, I may look after answering. I just gave you a flavor of what I know, although I am absolutely sure that the military of most countries as well as alphabet agencies or real good hypnotists know quite more than the plain hypnotist or the plain subject of hypnosis.

[Deega]

Thanks Ilie, very interesting Tread, I have had the experience of being group hypnotized (all willing beings), I had a wonderful experience but it was mine, and unfortunately cannot generalized.

From what I see in the video, that ain’t the type of hypnosis I had the experience to lived, I would not try this experience, rest assured!


- what is a catatonic state?


Clinical Features of Catatonic State, from Wikipedia, “Patients with catatonia may experience an extreme loss of motor skills or even constant hyperactive motor activity. Catatonic patients will sometimes hold rigid poses for hours and will ignore any external stimuli. Patients with catatonic excitement can suffer from exhaustion if not treated. Patients may also show stereotyped, repetitive movements.

They may show specific types of movement such as waxy flexibility, in which they maintain positions after being placed in them by someone else, or gegenhalten (lit. "counterhold"), in which they resist movement in proportion to the force applied by the examiner. They may repeat meaningless phrases or speak only to repeat what the examiner says.

While catatonia is only identified as a symptom of schizophrenia in present psychiatric classifications, it is increasingly recognized as a syndrome with many faces. It appears as the Kahlbaum syndrome (retarded catatonia), malignant catatonia (neuroleptic malignant syndrome, toxic serotonin syndrome), and excited forms (delirious mania, catatonic excitement, oneirophrenia). It has also been recognized as grafted on to autism spectrum disorders.”


- what is hypnosis?


Hypnosis is an artificially induced state of relaxation and concentration in which deeper parts of the mind become more accessible: used clinically to reduce reaction to pain, to encourage free association, etc. http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/hypnosis


- is there free will while you're "under"?

In the limited sessions that I had, at any time, I was advice that if for some reasons I felt something was going wrong, I only had to open my eyes and the hypnotic session was over. It doesn’t seem possible to do that in the video.


- how far can your perception of reality be altered under hypnosis?

During the hynoptic session, the perception of reality is not the same, you’re following the voice, the guidance of the person leading the session. He communicates with one subconscious mind, guiding the person to identify the illness that one may have, once identified, the person will choose to act on it afterward, this method of helping people have been used by Dolores Cannon, Michael Newton and others prominent figures using hypnosis. This video was intended to make a show of this technology.


- is it conceivable that we under under massive hypnosis right now?

Hmm!, that is a great question…!, do you feel that your reality is hindered somehow…?, do you feel that people in your area act in zombie like state…?, do you have a feeling underlying this question…? From the video, I don’t know!


- what happens with your "conscious mind" under hypnosis?

Under hypnosis, the conscious mind is somewhat at rest.


- if this show is "for real" how can we actually trust our mind, and senses?

IMHO, with more and more sophisticated technology on the market, we will put ourselves in difficult situations, personally, I would stay away from this gadget.

All the best to you.

Deega

[CeltMan]

To answer at least part of your questions:

1) Yes, I have attended live shows of stage hypnotists.
these were back in 1970's

I have seen Both Sheik Michelle, & Martin St. James perform.

Very similar acts.

As I have observed first hand, and have since learned (from Derren Brown etc) they have a set of procedures, which eliminate those who are not susepticible to hypnosis.

They 'select' from a range of volunteers from the audience.

I have wittnessed 'apparently normal people' go to return to their seats and be 'activated by key words'.
One man I recall when he heard a certain word/phrase, thought he had no trousers on. He ran shouting from the night club.

I can tell you that there was a lot of controvesry in the media back then.

Ther had been a few suicides of people who had attended their shows.

I believe it was Sheik Michell (dressed like an arab) who was barred from UK

Then in 1975, I was 'badgered' by a few pals to volunteer at the opening of a new night club.

That was Martin St James.
Myself, + about 8 others went on stage.

He had us streatch our arms out, fingers interlocked, & arms reversed, then try and pull them appart.

I succeeded, he sent me back to my seat.

I do recall there was a mixed reaction to my 'sucess at not being sucepitble'.

About 50/50 were pleased and dissaponmied!

They had put bets on me!! The ones that knew me better, had betted that I would not sucumb.
They knew that I was training Six times a week in both Taekwando _+ Judo (incd teaching)
Resaon I mention this, 'highly dicicplined mind + body training'

Are there 'plants' in audiences? I am sure there are.

Is Derren Brown using 'other forms of mind control'?
Well, I have been informed, 'on good authority', that he is(that he 'dabbles on the Dark side'). The jury is still out on that one for me at least.

We know for a fact that 'mass hypnosis exists' -- Just look no futher that Her Hitler!

Edit: I have heard that there are subliminal mesages hidden in adverts on TV etc.
That could be extended from enticing us to buy certain goods, to performing/acting in a certain way?!

[Flash]

15% of the population would not be susceptible to hypnosis. I would diminish it to less than 5% when electronic means or military means are used as well. And it is right: highly trained disciplined brains such as martial arts trained experts or heavy meditators or real heavy duty skeptical scientists (trained minds) are part of this 5%

[Cidersomerset]

Just rewatched the Deren Brown ....Behind The Mischief......show try and watch if you can...

Derren is funny ,strange and excentric and a very exceptional Talent....

Mind control,hypnosis is Very,Very real...

kB93O3HpT-k

It seems all Derrens U/Tube clips have been disabled....

Hypnotism Act 1952

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6and1Eliz2/15-16/46

Ille you may not believe , but there is definately something to it imho....

http://merovee.wordpress.com/2011/10/22/derren-brown-the-assassin/

It runs parrallel with mind control and MK Ultra...

[CeltMan]

Another thought.

Lets face it we are all 'conditioned from birth', to 'tow the party line'.

Told what to believe, conditioned by ads to buy certain fashion produtcs, to 'fit in' etc, news that is heavily censored, etc.

So is it a big streatch that having been 'softened up//conditioned', - that we become easy targets for a form of mass hypnosis?

And,........ how many 'really independant thinkers' do any of us actually know of?

Edit: P.S. I guess there would be more here at P.A., than one would find amongst the 'general pubic'?

[Cidersomerset]

Derren talking about the assassin...

The point is not everyone is susceptible to hypnosis but a lot are.....

iDeBzYBDtsw

He explains some of his techniques and who he looks for in a potential hypnosy..

I don't know if this will come up on your screens its the Assassin programme where Derrens aim
is to prove Sirhan Sirhan could be a innocent and a victim of hypnotic mindcontrol....
convinced me that it is a deffinate possibility...

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derren-brown-the-experiments/4od#3258648

[Ilie Pandia]

Well, there is actually a much deeper concern I have with hypnosis.

In the past I've read most of Carlos Castaneda's books (and I say that because every new book shines new light on previous books, so is not enough to just read some of them). Anyway, the thing I got most out of those books is that we see the world as we see it only because of our programmed/learned "perception of it".

If you use drugs, plants, mental/spiritual training or whatever means to alter/shatter that perception then you will see yourself immersed into a totally different reality that's just as "real" to you as the previous perception. I could have easily dismissed this if not for other teachings that talk about it and some personal experiences that have shown to me that there is something to this aspect.

So... yes Derren is doing this for show, but I have a hunch (with no proof) that there is much more to hypnosis that we currently know.

While looking at hypnotic shows (and even hypnotic therapy sessions) I can't help but notice that what we think of as our mind is actually very similar to a set of computer programs. If someone is able to scramble that program, or replace it, or shut it down, or plan new one, "you" will act on those and be none the wiser.

I sometimes think that hypnosis might be the key to our "system upgrade", but is now used to "scramble our system". We are more than our programmed mind, but in this "realm/reality" we are having experiences through this programmed mind. And if this is so, then it becomes imperative that we become aware of what programs we have running inside our minds. We need to try and run some "self-diagnosis" and "self-repair" programs.

Another thing I've noticed is that if I get very very tired, from lack of sleep, the "mind" slows down, and that is sort of funny to notice how you loose your train of though and how you are no longer able to focus. So perhaps in such a state I could be very susceptible to suggestions.

I'd be very curios to know what was my perception of the world as a very small baby, before all the hypnotic suggestions I got from the parents and the environment. How did I perceive the world before I even had a "language".

So this is really my interest in hypnosis. Could it be used as spiritual tool to help us break free? (free from what?) Is there more to hypnosis than those "funny, look-how-silly-you-are" shows? Do I ever have an "original thought" or is it all a pre-programmed reaction by the books and so called teachings that I've read, by the ads I see all day and so on.

[Quantum Logic]

Another thought.

Lets face it we are all 'conditioned from birth', to 'tow the party line'.

Told what to believe, conditioned by ads to buy certain fashion produtcs, to 'fit in' etc, news that is heavily censored, etc.

So is it a big streatch that having been 'softened up//conditioned', - that we become easy targets for a form of mass hypnosis?

And,........ how many 'really independant thinkers' do any of us actually know of?

This statement speaks volumes. Both sound and light have far more effect on the human brain than what we are told to believe. It is in others' best interest to conceal this knowledge, for if the general public were to find out, the cycle of control would be broken. Sound and light are FAR more powerful than can be conceived by most- biological influence, weaponry, defense, etc.

[CeltMan]

Another thought.

Lets face it we are all 'conditioned from birth', to 'tow the party line'.

Told what to believe, conditioned by ads to buy certain fashion produtcs, to 'fit in' etc, news that is heavily censored, etc.

So is it a big streatch that having been 'softened up//conditioned', - that we become easy targets for a form of mass hypnosis?

And,........ how many 'really independant thinkers' do any of us actually know of?

This statement speaks volumes. Both sound and light have far more effect on the human brain than what we are told to believe. It is in others' best interest to conceal this knowledge, for if the general public were to find out, the cycle of control would be broken. Sound and light are FAR more powerful than can be conceived by most- biological influence, weaponry, defense, etc.

I have given more thought to this question.

Perhaps because of my training, and also due to my 'opressive upbringing',- I am very aware of anyone attempting to dominate or influence me.

Does that mean that I am not being influenced, subliminally?

Sadly no, but I at least try to 'look laterally' at all situations.

I also recall being 'rejected as unsuitable material for a stage hypnosis' session at a Xmas party when I was aged about 11

And, if we also take into account, the affects of chemicals in our food supplies, chemtrails, water poisioning, all these could be being applied/used to condition us as susecptical subjects for being maniputaled.

Re 'tiredness' as a weapon to soften us up, from what I have read, this is a common technique, together with chemicals to condition subjects to be 're-programmed'

That famous old Michel Caine movie,....? (I am bad at names etc)- was a shocking example of what was going on in the 'clandestine services//spy arena'

Oh, before I forget, I knew years ago(during my martial arts days) a fascinating fellow.

He could control both pain + blood flow.
His party piece was to push long needles through his arms, and cheeks (face that is...lol) with no pain & no bleeding.
He was also a 'master at Gung Fu' (Not a typo- Gung Fu is an Indian version of Kung Fu)

He told me that it was a form of self hypnosis.

Edit: here is a link to rather insideous footage of twin ladies/Swedish. they are being run over-constantly on a British Motorway, and suffer little or no physical damage.

It has been suggested that they are the results of 'mind control //programming'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6agXn3fVnRs

6agXn3fVnRs

[CeltMan]

["I'd be very curios to know what was my perception of the world as a very small baby, before all the hypnotic suggestions I got from the parents and the environment. How did I perceive the world before I even had a "language". ]

From my limited experience, I can say that some babies show a remarkable 'awareness' fro birth. this sometimes develops and soimetimes dissapears as the child grows up.

Babies are 'not supposed to be able to focus' at birth. But I swear that my daughter DID. She looked up at me, and smiled,--about 1 hour after her birth.

My parents apparently showed some concern that as a one week old baby, that I 'had passed away' in my sleep. My dad was the one who went to check on me. He reported back to my mum, "Oh he is fine, he is wide awake, looking around at the room, taking everything in. He has been here before that one!"

EDIT: There are scientific studies that seem to prove, that 'babies can be influenced whilst still in the womb, by sounds around them, and the emotions, transferred from their mothers'

I know that my daughter played classical music to her daughter, whilst still in the womb. And (although not known back then) I 'instinctively ' played the pop music of the time, to my daughter whilst she was in her mothers womb. (Ok I admit a bias, but many also do agree that the music of 1969/70 was far superior to that of today?!...lol)


["So this is really my interest in hypnosis. Could it be used as spiritual tool to help us break free? (free from what?) Is there more to hypnosis than those "funny, look-how-silly-you-are" shows? Do I ever have an "original thought" or is it all a pre-programmed reaction by the books and so called teachings that I've read, by the ads I see all day and so on. ]

I am on a mail list of a 'spiritual hypnosis organisation'. Jim Katsoulis- here is the link. I have never actually bought any of their products but they seem genuine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thD_8cjJoKg + http://www.mindrisehypnosis.com/about/

[Knowrainknowrainbows!]

Excellent topic! I "tried" hypnosis once but was unsuccessful ... both disheartening and rewarding I guess ...
My issue regarding the Zombie video game and similar "experiments" in history has to do with ethics and potential for harmful effects after all the"fun and games" is over.

Derren had the young man meet the actors/participants as "they were feeling a bit guilty" ... no doubt they will contemplate this experience for a long time (I hope so). I, personally, was feeling anxious for the young man's freinds who accompanied him to the arcade and then followed along to the "staged theater". Was it difficult to sit quietly watching a friend awaken terrified? What did Derren tell them - that it would be as a bad dream/nightmare? Lucky no one had a heart attack ... then again, the future potential for emotional trauma as participants reflect on this experience may be more devastating.

So, Derren thought at one time he wanted to be a hypnotherapist (one who helps others) but changed his mind (to a more lucrative field)... how honest and "nothing personal, it's just business" of him.

This was an excellent discussion and links ... a reminder for me of the many subtle and effective ways "civilization" is influenced and morally eroded. Living in reality requires effort.

KRKR
NO rain No rainbows

[Mike]

i was hypnotized once. well, actually , that's not really accurate - i went to an alleged hypnotist who claimed to do something, but i'll be damned if i know what that something was.

she was so comically bad that i started inventing and reporting visions to her to get the experience over with, falling back on well-worn metaphors of light and darkness, and traveling to the light and so forth.

i was sorely disappointed, but not being the type to tell someone they suck at their chosen profession, i plunked down the 50 bucks and thanked her for the effort.

i've never had much luck seeking out the paranormal and the esoteric. psychics either refuse to read me or give egregiously inaccurate readings; and hypnotists can't hypnotize me. i don't know if it's them, me, or what! but i'm beginning to feel like some sort of freak!;)


p.s. i've just started reading Casteneda, Ilie, and i'm enthralled. wish i hadn't waited so long. i've always been drawn to shamanism.

[WhiteFeather]

I will choose Free Will.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDqDlRf8wxs

[Borden]

Hi Ilie,

when my father was a young man he spent some time as a stage hypnotist. He described to me how on his first show he had some friends planted in the audience ... just in case things didn't work as he planned! Well, one of the first things in the show was to get everybody to lock their fingers together, and he told them that they couldn't unlock them until they came up to the stage and he tapped their hands. To his surprise, most of the audience had to come up ... including a couple of his friends! They whispered, "Hey, seriously ... I can't unlock my fingers!"

I have dabbled in hypnosis (he taught me the technique he used), but since I don't really feel an inclination to be a therapist I have not pursued it. I have purely accidental attributes that make me a natural, like my Dad (deep voice, piercing eyes, etc), but I just don't feel a calling. And then look at Derren Brown! A foot shorter than me and with a much higher voice, and yet he is the master! Well, I don't think Beethoven's hands were ideal for the piano either, so there you go! So often seem to be the way. A maestro in whatever field is almost never what you would consider a natural.

I can't see the clip either, but I have seen it before. It's the zombie arcade game, right? I remember when I saw it how I was appalled at how weak-minded the subject was. But then ... he wasn't expecting to be hypnotised! Now look at all the intelligent people who let television and mainstream news into their lives. It doesn't mean they're stupid ... it just means that they have an inherent trust in what they are seeing because the world at large tells them that this is a reasonable channel of information.

Now, Derren Brown is a TV star ... and he is brilliant. But what brilliant people do you think TPTB have working for them?

The deck is stacked against us. My philosophy is that when it's a rigged game, I either don't play at all, or I cheat according to my own rules.

Borden.

[grapevine]

But we are all hypnotised from birth, although you might call it something else . . . . . conditioned . . . . trained. Derren Brown is a very clever man imo and that's why he has a successful career. He does all of his tricks on camera as well, which is doubly worrying because we still cannot see it. The worry/uncertainty here is because we know we are all being duped - and not by Darren Brown.

But it would be wonderful if Bill could conduct an in-depth interview with Darren Brown.

I understand that Darren Brown is the presenter/showman and that he has a 'behind the scenes' partner in all of this.

Fantastic entertainer . . .

[Borden]

But we are all hypnotised from birth, although you might call it something else . . . . . conditioned . . . . trained. Derren Brown is a very clever man imo and that's why he has a successful career. He does all of his tricks on camera as well, which is doubly worrying because we still cannot see it. The worry/uncertainty here is because we know we are all being duped - and not by Darren Brown.

But it would be wonderful if Bill could conduct an in-depth interview with Darren Brown.

I understand that Darren Brown is the presenter/showman and that he has a 'behind the scenes' partner in all of this.

Fantastic entertainer . . .

Wow, w1ndmill ...

Bill's thoughtful questions and Derren's thoughtful answers! That is one interview I would like to see!

Borden

[Cidersomerset]

I would love to see an interview with Bill as well......

Heres something close ......An interview with Richard Dawkins....

Xswt8B8-UTM

Derren himselfe did a debunking seeries of various psychic subjects
in the US....

But as he said in his Assassin interview he was surprised how he managed to get
the subject to go thru with it...against previous expert theory that it was not
possible to get someone to do that.....obviously wrong....

[Carmody]

Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

As usual, it may come down to the position or place one stands at when looking out and 'interpreting' the meaning of the word 'hypnosis'.

What is is the popular meaning of the word, and what is it's true reality, if applied in the real context of it's affect upon individuals and groups?

Define hypnosis clearly, then you will understand what it is doing.

As a good friend and mentor taught me, "If you define the question as correctly as possible, if you frame the question as completely as is possible..in that moment, you also frame the answer. In other words, a properly defined and phrased question automatically begets the answer."

It is only a human concept that in some way..that such a thing is not true. The sticking point or failing point in the formation of logic thus becomes one of incomplete or poorly thought out and poorly enacted questions.

Now, in the context of that...Define Hypnosis.

We have lots of data, data that some don't want to look at and some don't want to see.

Thus, we have a definition system that is faulted, and damaged, purposely, by the people looking at the question.

Essentially, in the end point, we have the psychology of the given question asking beings..deeply interfering in the quests that they embark upon. Belief structure rears it's head.('belief structure' as a form of projection into unknowns)

We find that the more modern or esoteric aspects of 'ego' are interfering in the definition of the word hypnosis and it's ultimate meaning.

Which is interesting as hypnosis is tied to the proper definition and understanding of ego.

Ultimately....the only reason we have discussion and argument (on any subject at all).... is due to people having ego and emotions driving their formation of logic, logic that should be based on data that is available. data that is available is not used, as BELIEF comes into play at the deepest levels, FEELING, of complex emotions, complex emotions that drive the formation of logic in the mind -- ego/body aspects of the formation of thought in the 'mind'.

Which flips back around to some aspects of the depths of what hypnosis actually is... again.

Ultimately... to understand the word hypnosis and the depth of it's meaning, you have to face aspects of the self and reality which will shift one's concepts of reality and life at the most fundamental levels possible.

[Flash]

Well, there is actually a much deeper concern I have with hypnosis.

In the past I've read most of Carlos Castaneda's books (and I say that because every new book shines new light on previous books, so is not enough to just read some of them). Anyway, the thing I got most out of those books is that we see the world as we see it only because of our programmed/learned "perception of it".

If you use drugs, plants, mental/spiritual training or whatever means to alter/shatter that perception then you will see yourself immersed into a totally different reality that's just as "real" to you as the previous perception. I could have easily dismissed this if not for other teachings that talk about it and some personal experiences that have shown to me that there is something to this aspect.

So... yes Derren is doing this for show, but I have a hunch (with no proof) that there is much more to hypnosis that we currently know.

While looking at hypnotic shows (and even hypnotic therapy sessions) I can't help but notice that what we think of as our mind is actually very similar to a set of computer programs. If someone is able to scramble that program, or replace it, or shut it down, or plan new one, "you" will act on those and be none the wiser.

I sometimes think that hypnosis might be the key to our "system upgrade", but is now used to "scramble our system". We are more than our programmed mind, but in this "realm/reality" we are having experiences through this programmed mind. And if this is so, then it becomes imperative that we become aware of what programs we have running inside our minds. We need to try and run some "self-diagnosis" and "self-repair" programs.

Another thing I've noticed is that if I get very very tired, from lack of sleep, the "mind" slows down, and that is sort of funny to notice how you loose your train of though and how you are no longer able to focus. So perhaps in such a state I could be very susceptible to suggestions.

I'd be very curios to know what was my perception of the world as a very small baby, before all the hypnotic suggestions I got from the parents and the environment. How did I perceive the world before I even had a "language".

So this is really my interest in hypnosis. Could it be used as spiritual tool to help us break free? (free from what?) Is there more to hypnosis than those "funny, look-how-silly-you-are" shows? Do I ever have an "original thought" or is it all a pre-programmed reaction by the books and so called teachings that I've read, by the ads I see all day and so on.

i think you nailed most of it. And yes, it can be use to free oneself imho.

[Ilie Pandia]

Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

As usual, it may come down to the position or place one stands at when looking out and 'interpreting' the meaning of the word 'hypnosis'.

What is is the popular meaning of the word, and what is it's true reality, if applied in the real context of it's affect upon individuals and groups?

Define hypnosis clearly, then you will understand what it is doing.

As a good friend and mentor taught me, "If you define the question as correctly as possible, if you frame the question as completely as is possible..in that moment, you also frame the answer. In other words, a properly defined and phrased question automatically begets the answer."

It is only a human concept that in some way..that such a thing is not true. The sticking point or failing point in the formation of logic thus becomes one of incomplete or poorly thought out and poorly enacted questions.

Now, in the context of that...Define Hypnosis.

We have lots of data, data that some don't want to look at and some don't want to see.

Thus, we have a definition system that is faulted, and damaged, purposely, by the people looking at the question.

Essentially, in the end point, we have the psychology of the given question asking beings..deeply interfering in the quests that they embark upon. Belief structure rears it's head.('belief structure' as a form of projection into unknowns)

We find that the more modern or esoteric aspects of 'ego' are interfering in the definition of the word hypnosis and it's ultimate meaning.

Which is interesting as hypnosis is tied to the proper definition and understanding of ego.

Ultimately....the only reason we have discussion and argument (on any subject at all).... is due to people having ego and emotions driving their formation of logic, logic that should be based on data that is available. data that is available is not used, as BELIEF comes into play at the deepest levels, FEELING, of complex emotions, complex emotions that drive the formation of logic in the mind -- ego/body aspects of the formation of thought in the 'mind'.

Which flips back around to some aspects of the depths of what hypnosis actually is... again.

Ultimately... to understand the word hypnosis and the depth of it's meaning, you have to face aspects of the self and reality which will shift one's concepts of reality and life at the most fundamental levels possible.

As usual my brain hurts when reading your post :becky:

It seems, through my filters, that you suggest hypnosis is a tool to alter belief systems. And this tools is actually based on the belief system itself. Since some cannot be hypnotized and others can be "hyper hypnotized" it seem you need to believe you can be hypnotized at some level, or are in fact "self hypnotic" all the time... hm...

You're talking about DATA, but the problem is... how can I perceive that RAW data? I seem to have filters that block me from seeing the data (like it does not register in my "awareness field") or I have filters that grossly skew said data.

Sometimes it feels like I am locked in a lit room and I hold the key in my pocket, but I keep my eyes closed and pretend I don't have the key so I get to "perceive myself" locked in the dark by some outside force. In that sense hypnosis could be the process of lying to oneself or building illusions around oneself. And taking that a bit further, perhaps hypnosis can be used to alter what I perceive as reality in a very dramatic way.

[Tony]

If I ask you, "Where is the nearest post box?" Your mind in now distracted, trying to comply with my wish. It's that simple! It doesn't feel against your will.

[Borden]

Ilie,

a crass example my father would joke about goes as follows:

If you hypnotise a girl and tell her to get undressed in front of the audience ... she won't.

If you hypnotise a girl and tell her she is in her bedroom alone and it's time to go to bed ... she will.

Take from this what you will.

Especially when you next watch TV, shop at a supermarket, or vote in an election.

Borden.

[CdnSirian]

"BATTLE FOR THE MIND By William Sargant Reviewed By Frank ...

In his book, Battle for the Mind, William Sargant rephrases the question and instead of asking why, he asks how? That is, how can people be induced to believe ...

www.mcfrdz.ishk.com/battle_for_the_mind.pdf - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight" Ilie I think you might enjoy this book on the hypnosis. It is very detailed. It addresses most of the issues mentioned in this thread.

[Tony]

There was one thing Atticus said that rang true. One can utilise natural events! That can be in the physical .....or the mind!
People live in a dream, one just manipulates the dream. Playing with people's emotions is part of this game. Pride, jealousy, anger, fear and ignorance.
You can only wake up when you are aware of this going on .............if not you are still in the dream!

.....being manipulated!

[etm567]

Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

But there was no standard hypnotic induction there. I don't know if you can induce a deep hypnotic trance -- which that would have to be -- sort of instantly by flashing a light a few times. ANd then what does he do when he walks in and presses on the guy's head, and he goes out? I've been hypnotized, used to know a hypnotist. Of course there could be techniques he didn't know. That is possible. But there is nothing about this so-called "hypnosis" that bears any resemblance to standard hypnosis.

So, I don't know.

ETM

[CdnSirian]

Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

But there was no standard hypnotic induction there. I don't know if you can induce a deep hypnotic trance -- which that would have to be -- sort of instantly by flashing a light a few times. ANd then what does he do when he walks in and presses on the guy's head, and he goes out? I've been hypnotized, used to know a hypnotist. Of course there could be techniques he didn't know. That is possible. But there is nothing about this so-called "hypnosis" that bears any resemblance to standard hypnosis.

So, I don't know.

ETM

I wondered about this when I watched some Derren videos on youtube. On people in the subway. He tapped them on the forehead and BANG they were in trance. Scary!

[Anchor]

The way I see Darren Brown is that this all is disclosure of a sort.

BTW, I like this write up on the "Assassin show" http://www.exuberancehypno.co.uk/blog/index.php/2011/10/derren-brown-the-assassin-explained-how-did-he-do-it/

[Intranuclear]

Ilie,

When I was a teen (many lifetimes ago :(), one of my interests became hypnosis. What preceded all that was out of body experiences I had had (did not know the term at that time) which led to reading Robert Monroe's books (which I still cherish). In any case, after much research, I dared to try to hypnotize friends and family. To my shock, I was successful the very first time I did. In every case where I succeeded, the subjects were extremely close to me and I was extremely careful not to suggest anything that could harm them. I even dabbled in self hypnosis, and while I succeeded every time, it also always ended up in complete silence (no one there to guide me after attaining the "hypnotic" state). In cases where I failed to hypnotize, there were trust issues. Bottom line, trust/belief is paramount (if not drugged). While I have not experimented with lots of drugs as many I know have, I am very aware of how many drugs/hormones/pheromones/etc. along with the right environmental conditions can completely engulf one's consciousness and lead one to perceive anything. As such, I am painfully aware that one's sense of reality is the shape of perception. The amount of reality is simply limited by the tools of perception. The amount of information around us (from every moment in time) is effectively infinite, thus as you change your perception, you can perceive things that using your standard filters you would normally miss. So, in all this infinite temporal information field, what is real?

Cheers.

[TargeT]

Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

only works on the weak mind however ;)




So this is really my interest in hypnosis. Could it be used as spiritual tool to help us break free? (free from what?) Is there more to hypnosis than those "funny, look-how-silly-you-are" shows? Do I ever have an "original thought" or is it all a pre-programmed reaction by the books and so called teachings that I've read, by the ads I see all day and so on.

9eagle9 does this I think, perhaps she'll post to confirm :)




It seems, through my filters, that you suggest hypnosis is a tool to alter belief systems. And this tools is actually based on the belief system itself. Since some cannot be hypnotized and others can be "hyper hypnotized" it seem you need to believe you can be hypnotized at some level, or are in fact "self hypnotic" all the time... hm...

You're talking about DATA, but the problem is... how can I perceive that RAW data? I seem to have filters that block me from seeing the data (like it does not register in my "awareness field") or I have filters that grossly skew said data.

Sometimes it feels like I am locked in a lit room and I hold the key in my pocket, but I keep my eyes closed and pretend I don't have the key so I get to "perceive myself" locked in the dark by some outside force. In that sense hypnosis could be the process of lying to oneself or building illusions around oneself. And taking that a bit further, perhaps hypnosis can be used to alter what I perceive as reality in a very dramatic way.

Hmm, fighting ego barriers, ego blocks you from seeing itself & ego is a part of the hypnosis (IMO) I'd wager that the more ego centric types are easier to "suggest" to...

but hopefuly its over come-able
http://www.grandrecognition.com/Grand_Recognition.com/Ego-Deconstruction.html

[Cottage Rose]

It is a highly productive excercise to learn to transition in and out of self hypnotic states at will, while monitoring "self-talk". So, experiencing either a a self induced or incoming destructive/non-productive thought? ...... Shift into a self-hypnotic state and eliminate the "weed" before it takes root and does any damage. Fun mental gymnastics. The subconscious mind takes words literally, though. I consider the writing of effective self-hypnotic scripts to be a fine art. It is, in effect, creating one's reality.

[sandy]

Hi Ilie,

And taking that a bit further, perhaps hypnosis can be used to alter what I perceive as reality in a very dramatic way.[/QUOTE]

If you "believe" that, then You can :)