Fear and Loathing in PA: Fear is the mindkiller [Archive]

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Mark

5th February 2012, 19:20

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. ~ Bene Gesserit Litany against Fear, Dune, Frank Herbert

The human condition, to a greater or lesser degree, is one that we all share. Sans psychopaths and perhaps some others, most of us experience fear. Sometimes we experience fear and we don't really recognize it. One example of that is anger.

All anger is based upon fear.

If you react in anger you are showing your fear.

The way to understand this most clearly is to think about what got you angry. Go back to the exact instance the anger started and notice what your feeling was at that time. What you were afraid of.

Sometimes we are afraid of being wrong. Sometimes we are afraid of someone else being right. Sometimes we are afraid of missing out on something. Sometimes we are afraid of being revealed. Sometimes we are just afraid.

Sarcasm is an expression of repressed anger. It is a weapon of mass destruction. Even more insidious than anger, which is like the wind, blasting through a street. Sarcasm observes and wrecks intellectual and emotional havoc that can be just as devastating as a fit of rage.

I get angry. I get really angry. I get sarcastic. I get really sarcastic. Beneath it all, is my fear. Fear of different things: of being wrong, of being right, of being rejected, of being accepted. Contradictory but existent.

How can we not despair and get depressed when we are trying to figure out how to get out of these negative patterns? Depression is anger turned inward, they say. Again, back to the root, which is fear.

The problem is, our synapses and neural nets have been programmed by our thought processes. We are used to responding in anger, in sarcasm. We are used to being suspicious, negative. We think we are protecting ourselves this way. That we are stopping ourselves from experiencing even more pain, even more hurt.

Neurons that fire together wire together, that guy from What the Bleep said. Our anger becomes our expression, our hypothalamuses eject anger neuro-peptides in abundance which suffuse our cells, which then become unable to take in nutrients, which speed up the aging process, which distorts and deforms our faces, our smiles become crooked and cynical, we look out upon the world through jaded eyes, our bodies bend, we spit venom and hate and we die.

We read and hear and understand and know that all of this is true, but we cannot address is directly. Pride is related to anger too. Which leads us back to Fear yet again. We cannot comment on it, we cannot admit our shortcomings. We cannot seek another way because the way we are is comfortable. We're used to it. This is life. We all have to die anyway.

Right?

Is there another way? Can we allow the fear to pass through us? If we can, who are we then? If we are no longer defined by the way we used to act, how are we supposed to act then?

This is a piece I did on this topic a while back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxSYzjDEAWs&feature=channel_video_title
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxSYzjDEAWs&feature=channel_video_title

Big ups and RIP to Frank Herbert. Fear is the Mindkiller.

Mulder

5th February 2012, 19:40

Mark

5th February 2012, 19:44

Mulder

5th February 2012, 20:01

Hi, I disagree that depression is anger turned inward. Depression has been shown to result from chemical imbalances in the brain. Some drugs which re-balance these chemicals have been shown to reduce depression. Whether or not this chemical imbalance results from fear turned inward is impossible to know. so I'm saying depression can be resulting from an illness, not the way you handle anger.

Thank you for sharing. As quiet as it's kept, humans have the potential to control their bodies, to control their chemical emissions. As I stated above, our mental state controls the release of chemicals that result in the rush of emotions that we feel. I understand the illness part of depression. There are a lot of things that are considered illnesses now that, in previous time periods, were considered more to be spiritual malaises. I might hazard a guess that depression does have some spiritual characteristics as well.

Regardless, my original statements remain valid. I did not create this thread to argue semantics, as I want to concentrate on the underlying point. If you google the statement, "depression is anger turned inward", you will come upon quite a few pages that speak about it in much more detail.

Thank you for your wisdom. I feel there are many types of depression, for example the DSM4 defines some depressions with a psychosis and other depressions without it. I was talking about clinical depression which is an illness and really destroys a person's ability to work and live. For example, Virginia Woolf at times couldn't eat her dinner as she was so depressed - her husband had to feed her. I'm worried about telling people with severe illness that they need to "change their thinking" to cure themselves. This can be seen as blaming them for their illness they can't control. For example, someone with a broken leg would never be told to "cheer up" or "get yourself together", but too often people with depression are told this.

Mark

5th February 2012, 20:05

I understand, but you need not worry. This thread is not about depression per say and to make it about that is to take it off-topic. Thank you again for your contribution to the thread.

NancyV

5th February 2012, 20:45

I've thought for many decades about fear. When I was in my teens and 20's I seemed to be driven to seek out situations where I would be in great danger so I could experience and overcome fear. Did I overcome it? Not completely, but in a way...yes. I've reached the point where fear is recognized as a human body/mind response to certain stimuli and I no longer fear feeling fear!

When I've been in life threatening or painful situations, like being abducted, beat up, raped, imprisoned, etc. I have the ability to put aside the majority of my fear and go immediately into a state where my mind speeds up and considers within a minute or less all the possible actions I can take and all the possible outcomes of those actions. Then I make a decision and act on it. Sometimes the decision involves violence, sometimes deception, sometimes surrender. If one action does not work I quickly move on to another, adapting to the outcome of each action.

Since I lived in Mexico for several years and part of the time was an undercover contract DEA agent there and in South America, I was in a lot of dangerous situations so I got a lot of practice in dealing with fear. I came to the same conclusion that you did about anger covering fear. I found that anger was much preferable to fear but the best emotional state I could achieve was a detached logic which accepted that death or pain was a likely outcome in certain situations. It was these situations that helped me develop more detachment.... so I would not change anything about my life as it all lead to who I am today. I have also read almost all of Frank Herbert's books starting in about 1966 when I read Dune. I began avidly devouring science fiction at about 6 years old in 1953. "Fear is the Mind Killer" became a favorite mantra of mine in dangerous physical situations and later in the occasional scary out of body situation. Fear is alive and well in other dimensions/densities until you finally overcome it completely. For me it took complete surrender to death and to God/Source.

My present husband has given me his perspective on fear since he was in Vietnam and later a counter terrorist. He's been shot and stabbed, had many broken bones and fought in many conflicts. He seems like the most fearless person I have ever known because he's the type who will charge when the odds are astronomically against success. He told me that all soldiers feel fear, even those who seem fearless or pretend to have no fear. He feels fear but he puts it aside and acts despite his fear. He feels no shame related to experiencing fear.

The most fearless I ever am is when I surrender to death, because I know there is no death. My soul knows it is eternal. My mind knows my soul is eternal. I no longer let the occasional knee jerk fears of my human body/mind bother me as they are transitory. They can also be quite amusing, especially if you consider yourself to be somewhat spiritually evolved and if you think an evolved being should feel no fear. Laughter always pushes fear away! Fear of being fearful is no longer a fear of mine!

grapevine

5th February 2012, 21:00

I guess then that along the line:

fear ______________v________________ love

all emotions falling before the v are fear-based and all those after the v are loved based (I think we know what they are although Dr David Hawkins calibrates them all in this way) .

First of all I confess that often my first reaction to any upset is anger. I have always recognised this as fear and a substitute for tears but it just happens without thinking, like scratching an itch and no time for strategies. I then confront and attack, the first (I will face my fear as per the video) and the second is fear based again, although I'm glad when it has the desired effect. It's also fear that stops me from taking that short cut through the park at night, so it doesn't always have a negative outcome.

Mark

5th February 2012, 21:01

Nancy, what a gem of a post. Thank you so much for choosing to share your wisdom here. A few comments and high fives:

I have the ability to put aside the majority of my fear and go immediately into a state where my mind speeds up and considers within a minute or less all the possible actions I can take and all the possible outcomes of those actions. Then I make a decision and act on it.

Yes. Very well described. This ability has to be something that is cultivated consciously and that can only be done by overcoming the paralysis that accompanies the fear response. While your life experiences are amazing and beyond the norm, people can approximate them to an extent in their own lives and do. Any situation where fear is felt is an opportunity to overcome it. Public speaking, standing up for yourself to a bully, even going outside can be opportunities to confront fear and learn to function beyond it.

I have also read almost all of Frank Herbert's books starting in about 1966 when I read Dune. I began avidly devouring science fiction at about 6 years old in 1953. "Fear is the Mind Killer" became a favorite mantra of mine in dangerous physical situations and later in the occasional scary out of body situation. Fear is alive and well in other dimensions/densities until you finally overcome it completely. For me it took complete surrender to death and to God/Source.

:high5: As you can tell by the video I posted below the OP, I have found the litany against fear to be useful in my life as well. Overcoming fear is the necessary component in being able to reach those other dimensions/densities, as the attempt to do so through oobes/astrally must pass through a gauntlet of sorts comprised of entities who are there to scare the living bejesus out of you and keep you firmly planted in your body.

He told me that all soldiers feel fear, even those who seem fearless or pretend to have no fear. He feels fear but he puts it aside and acts despite his fear. He feels no shame related to experiencing fear.

Very true. Soldiers face their fears together and fight for each other moreso than any abstract concepts of nation or patriotism. You two are the epitome of the term "power couple".

The most fearless I ever am is when I surrender to death, because I know there is no death. My soul knows it is eternal. My mind knows my soul is eternal. I no longer let the occasional knee jerk fears of my human body/mind bother me as they are transitory. They can also be quite amusing, especially if you consider yourself to be somewhat spiritually evolved and if you think an evolved being should feel no fear. Laughter always pushes fear away! Fear of being fearful is no longer a fear of mine!

How inspiring. If you're the last poster on this thread, I consider its purpose served. Thank you again for giving of yourself in this moment and in this space to share, with us.

Mark

5th February 2012, 21:11

First of all I confess that often my first reaction to any upset is anger.

Hey, did I see you at the meeting last week??? Hi everybody, my name is ... LOL

I have always recognised this as fear and a substitute for tears but it just happens without thinking, like scratching an itch and no time for strategies. I then confront and attack, the first (I will face my fear as per the video) and the second is fear based again, although I'm glad when it has the desired effect.

I understand. I think I was about 9 or 10 years old when I realized that there was a gap between thought and action. That there was a moment where it was possible to make a choice about how I was going to respond. Because it had become clear to me by that point that, to be like other people, it was necessary for me to respond in a manner they thought appropriate. And so I remember making a choice at a very young age that I was going to act like other people and get upset, lash out, be sarcastic, cut, do the things that society shows us are the 'normal' responses.

Before the fear takes hold of readers, no, I'm not a psychopath. :hand: I am an empath for the most part, but I do recall doing this. Perhaps all children do it? I do not know. When we take on these patterns we are, in a large sense, conforming with the normative behavior of those around us. I question whether that is the proper course of action when immersed within a sick society. But we had no choice, did we. And did not even know we had no choice. Fear is familiar. Pretty much everybody else is afraid, who are we to think we can be different?? And don't people attack individuals who are different? Cast them out??

So we age, continuing the patterns we learned in childhood, until we make a different choice. But before we make that choice, we have to be aware. We have to admit to ourselves that we have built this edifice, our personalities, based upon erroneous beliefs about the nature of who and what we are and what this world is.

It's also fear that stops me from taking that short cut through the park at night, so it doesn't always have a negative outcome.

Common sense is never a bad thing. Differentiating between real fear and imagined fear is paramount. But what if the park is safe? Was that fear useful, then?

another bob

5th February 2012, 21:55

“What will be left of all the fearing and wanting associated with your problematic life situation that every day takes up most of your attention?
A dash, one or two inches long, between the date of birth and date of death on your gravestone.”

~Eckhart Tolle

:yo:

Mark

5th February 2012, 21:59

An extraordinarily in-depth and penetrating discourse, AB. Thank you for your contribution, Sir! :p

Of course, Mr. Tolle's insight is always on point. Bless.

realitycorrodes

5th February 2012, 21:59

Remove the root program of "physical pain" and ye shall see all fear disappear! Focus on what is important and obvious. Pursuing fear as if it is the root cause is a disinformation.

Mark

5th February 2012, 22:02

Remove the root program of "physical pain" and ye shall see all fear disappear!

I like that, it seems to address the source. Does all fear come from an experience of "physical pain"?

Focus on what is important and obvious. Pursuing fear as if it is the root cause is a disinformation.

Please explain further? What do you mean, disinformation?

Tommy

5th February 2012, 22:08

Thanks for the thread Rahkyt,

I just posted the below on another thread and thought it might fit here as well, beg my pardon if it does not :)

Some words from me to the individuals it resonates with.

- First, no one can save yourself from "your-self" except "yourself".
No Bill Brockbrader, no Kerry Cassidy, no Bill Ryan, no Tommy Hansen, no one, or even two..

- How you focus your energies (positive, negative, etc) creates the foundation of your personal future.
It also defines how people view you on a forum or otherwise.

- Respect. Respect for everything and everyone around you, physical or not.

- You can not deceive others without deceiving yourself.

- Judgement. Judge yourself before judging others.

- The other cheek: If you yourself can not contribute, or simply victimize yourself so much that your only resolution become turned towards the ego. If you are not a victim then your ego can and will be your ally.. As in trusting your ability to deliver on your promises and motivations. Though failing, being a victim of yourself and the vast programming efforts towards humanity only makes you a "tool" of insecurity, I explain this by you\the individual pushing your own sense of insecurity and perhaps fear over to others not in need for your negative wisdom.
Attacking the integrity of others only reflects on your own ability to undermine others while failing to take personal responsibility.

Edit to add:

Speak clearly, present clearly and thus be heard clearly.

Now, this is only me, but I speak what I see to be my own truth, a truth I can stand behind because I act on it.

:violin:

realitycorrodes

5th February 2012, 22:12

New Age spiritual propaganda uses distraction techniques. It also uses "flattering the spiritual persons ego". Example: New Age spirituality teaches we are "chosen" (red flag right there) and as such we are special. When we are special we are given "special lessons" to learn etc. etc. Yet no one comtemplates intensely upon the fact that the special lessons being learned (e.g. overcoming fear) are actually quite trivial in relationship to the "disproportionate amount of pain" one has to experience such lessons. When one comprehends such things one can only come to the conclusions that the root program of physical pain is designed to be cruel. The primary intention is cruelty.

This begs the question...How to set oneself free of physical pain?

When you realise and admit that that is what we all really seek then we also realise that there are no real teachers out there....cause the fake teachers are all teaching us to overcome an imaginary fear - they keep us thinking that the imaginary fear is our root problem when all fear comes from physical pain.

When I was a child I was not frightened of the fire before I put my hand in - I had no prior programing towards it as good or bad. But once I felt the physical pain of being burnt, I was scared to ever do it again! And the pain I suffered that day was not limited to creating fear in me just about fire it made me concerned that other things not known may be worthy of being frightened of as well.

Mark

5th February 2012, 22:15

Thanks for the thread Rahkyt,

I just posted the below on another thread and thought it might fit here as well, beg my pardon if it does not :)

For those with eyes to see and ears to hear and all that. :wizard:

Beautifully and clearly stated, ST. Thank you so much for sharing your comments here. I can imagine which thread it is currently on as there are a number that require such momentary interventions just to moderate the more extreme expressions. I'm of the mind now that these things must be in all of their wild and vainglorious declaiming. I suppose it is an expression of infinite probability that all things must occur as they happen, there can be no other way. It is a testament to the strength of the forum that the types of wars between people of oppositional viewpoints that PA has been experiencing have not yet torn the place apart. Or perhaps, instead, it is a testament to the intestinal fortitude of the participants and their commitment, no matter the orientation, to the expression of their truth.

the theme in all of my posting today is also of a kind, no matter the thread, I'm finding. These themes of anger and fear, of energetic exchange both conscious and unconscious and owning up to what our true intentions are in all instances. It always comes back to self and Self, as you write. Bless!

Carmen

5th February 2012, 22:16

Jeez! Fear's in our very genes! We have had lifetimes of fearful imprinting so we are born with it. It part of our downloading of our genetic line from conception!! Couple that with religion telling us that we only have one life and this is it! Then we go to heaven or hell! Not much of choice. Stay frozen with fear in case we sin or have a merry old time and go to hell at the end of it!

Takes quite a bit to throw off all that imprinted belief system of garbage. The controllers have done a great job and were very nearly there!! Damm those rebels who said 'to hell' with all of that.

Although we have as many perspectives as hair on a dog we are all rebels with a cause and all power to us. Sorry, gone off topic slightly but the members here and other places are the spiritual wedge in the grid of control. We don't all agree on everything, sure, but we all dare to be different and have suffered ridicule because of it. We have gone past the fear of not fitting in to the tribe.

etm567

5th February 2012, 22:18

How can we not despair and get depressed when we are trying to figure out how to get out of these negative patterns? Depression is anger turned inward, they say. Again, back to the root, which is fear.

Hi, I disagree that depression is anger turned inward. Depression has been shown to result from chemical imbalances in the brain. Some drugs which re-balance these chemicals have been shown to reduce depression. Whether or not this chemical imbalance results from fear turned inward is impossible to know. so I'm saying depression can be resulting from an illness, not the way you handle anger.

Not all depressions are the same, and certainly some of them are caused by anger. And anger is yet another emotion that releases chemicals in the brain. Depression is a problem of chemicals in the brain.

All kinds of things we do, think, eat and imbibe have various effects on the chemicals in our brain. Even daylight and lack of daylight.

I've been chronically ill for many years, and the government has often tried to pass it off as some kind of emotional thing. But they recently did some studies and determined that people with CFS or CFIDS did not have those chemicals that say you are in a depression that caused by a chemical imbalance. But people who have this do get depressed, because the damned disease destroys your life and causes you to feel pain almost all the time. That is very depressing!

I would not pretend to know what all depressions are. I am also from a family of folks with bipolar disease, and I have watched clinical depression work its destruction. Hmm, maybe that's the word you didn't use that maybe you should have, clinical? But I think not even all clinical depressions are strictly caused by chemical processes totally apart from our lives. Sometimes the chemicals in our daily lives set off those storms that can cause depression.

I was really depressed once, for two years. It started when I quit smoking, cold turkey, from 1.5 to 2 packs a day, and was working at night. I refused to take medication at that time, which I would not do again, but it did get better -- when I stopped working at night, and when I started smoking again. So, there you go. Different chemicals, yes, but chemicals. Now I do not smoke, and this time I didn't get depressed when I quit. But I wasn't such a heavy smoker, and I did it very gradually.

Basically, I would never suggest that anyone with a serious clinical depression not take medication for it (too many suicides in my extended family, as well!), but all depressions are not the same. Just my opinion.

ETM

another bob

5th February 2012, 22:22

An extraordinarily in-depth and penetrating discourse, AB.

Oh oh, was I supposed to say more?

Hehehe . . .

:yo:

WhiteFeather

5th February 2012, 22:34

Although I Do Perceive Fear To Be This Basic Or Simplistic, If You Will: And Pardon Me If I'm Being Rude Here

F reedom
E nlightenment
A scension
R ethinking From Inside

I hope this clarify's FEAR for Mice Elf.

Mark

5th February 2012, 22:37

Thank you for taking the time to explain your comments further:

New Age spiritual propaganda uses distraction techniques. It also uses "flattering the spiritual persons ego". Example: New Age spirituality teaches we are "chosen" (red flag right there) and as such we are special. When we are special we are given "special lessons" to learn etc. etc.

I actually agree with this without qualification. I have my own bones to pick (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?27571-The-Gathering-of-the-Rainbow-Tribe-New-Age-delusions-and-rude-Awakenings) with the so-called New Age movement as a whole that sort of mirror your characterization of some of its more widespread tenets as being based upon "distraction techniques" and "flattering..." of the ego as well. This is a dangerous propensity but is, yet again, based upon fear. Of awakening fear within those who seek to belong and do not seek to be left out, of those who want to keep up and do not want to be left behind, of those who want to be in the know rather than a part of the herd.

So people join a herd. A smaller herd, a herd that has sets of beliefs that do fit beneath a banner or a standard to a degree, but that also allows for a sense of individuality, which naturally gives rise to egocentric tendencies, pride and emotional clinging to yet another form of identity which must be protected at all costs.

Yet no one comtemplates intensely upon the fact that the special lessons being learned (e.g. overcoming fear) are actually quite trivial in relationship to the "disproportionate amount of pain" one has to experience such lessons. When one comprehends such things one can only come to the conclusions that the root program of physical pain is designed to be cruel. The primary intention is cruelty.

I see where you are coming from. I do not proselytize "New Age spiritual propaganda". I base my comments upon personal experience, psychological standards and spiritual tenets that are ancient in conception and that span a number of traditions, and so cannot be ascribed to any one, let alone purely as a form of "woo-woo New Age philosophy". I suppose the perspective that we each take is paramount here. What we see and read in what others say is based upon our own understanding of the world, what we have learned, our knowledge-bases and what we decide based upon our own experiences and inner-barometers of truth vs falsehood. Coming from a path of moderation and holistic synthesis based upon an understanding of unity-based consciousness and energetic resonance across multiple, parallel and infinite fields of density ranging from pure creation to pure entropy, my perspective seeks the path of least resistance which, in my view, validates shared experience as experientially pertinent to multiple perspectives, paradigms and cultural outlooks.

From that, my, perspective, you cannot separate the act of "overcoming fear" from the process of "experiencing fear", no matter what the source of that fear might be. By assigning a moral judgement of "cruelty" to these simultaneously higher and lower experiential memes, the sublime intentions of creation itself are limited to the conceptual framework of a dualistic entity mired in the morass of limitation and, yet again, fear-based thinking. Cynical, prideful, suspicious, sarcastic and even more indirectly fearful. This seems to me to be a further descent into separation and obfuscation rather than a coalescence into unity and clarity.

This begs the question...How to set oneself free of physical pain?

In the physical world? Is that a goal worth pursuing?

When you realise and admit that that is what we all really seek then we also realise that there are no real teachers out there....cause the fake teachers are all teaching us to overcome an imaginary fear - they keep us thinking that the imaginary fear is our root problem when all fear comes from physical pain.

Stating that fear is imaginary is like stating that the world around us is illusory. Useful at the theoretical and philosophical level of understanding, but useless and actually counter-productive in the practical and lived-reality level of understanding. It is unworkable. Walking around declaiming that nothing is real and imperiously ignoring emotional states will find one dead, run over by a bus that is actually quite real indeed or shot in the head by someone thinking they're ridding the world of one more crazy fool. Fear is multi-dimensional in nature, it is an energetic formulation that is as real as the consciousness that we assign it.

When I was a child I was not frightened of the fire before I put my hand in - I had no prior programing towards it as good or bad. But once I felt the physical pain of being burnt, I was scared to ever do it again! And the pain I suffered that day was not limited to creating fear in me just about fire it made me concerned that other things not known may be worthy of being frightened of as well.

In this, we again agree without qualification. Fear is to be surmounted to the extent that, as a condition of material existence, it serves to protect us, and yet can be over-extended unnecessarily into areas of our perception that it would serve us better to clear of such distractions. Which is the point of all of this ... to acknowledge that fear exists, sometimes where we least expect it. Or where we do not think we need to, or want to, look.

TargeT

5th February 2012, 23:26

Fear is to be surmounted to the extent that, as a condition of material existence, it serves to protect us, and yet can be over-extended unnecessarily into areas of our perception that it would serve us better to clear of such distractions. Which is the point of all of this ... to acknowledge that fear exists, sometimes where we least expect it. Or where we do not think we need to, or want to, look.

does it need to be surmounted or just observed & not acted on?

inputs don't have to be acted on, they can be noted & ignored.. part of ego separation I think?

I see of it as less of a "struggle" & more of acceptance...

if anyone has read the Wheel of time... its more of "the way of the leaf" approach.

Dorjezigzag

6th February 2012, 00:53

Fear is the mindkiller,
But we should not focus too much on the fear
For love conquers fear,
Do not negate the fear, but love the fear
All is love

TargeT

6th February 2012, 01:20

Fear is the mindkiller,
But we should not focus too much on the fear
For love conquers fear,
Do not negate the fear, but love the fear
All is love

maybe love drowns out fear.. but rationality, logic... that is what conquers fear and love...

I am not one to blindly give into emotion of either extreme.

Dorjezigzag

6th February 2012, 01:31

TargeT

6th February 2012, 02:22

I know what you are saying but...
When in fear the mind is killed, it is pretty useless, hence fear is the mind killer,
Love is the emotion that will conquer the fear and you will be lucid
I am not talking about lust or obsession which is actually fear as well, just the creative force of love
Without emotion you are dead.

Fear is the mindkiller,
But we should not focus too much on the fear
For love conquers fear,
Do not negate the fear, but love the fear
All is love

maybe love drowns out fear.. but rationality, logic... that is what conquers fear and love...

I am not one to blindly give into emotion of either extreme.

I think we have to give into it... I think giving into emotion is either choosing to experience it or being unaware of the fact that you have that choice and letting it take control of you (and perhaps this is even a more complicated event as people can seem almost possessed when in extreme emotional events)

you have to allow fear to control you, it's not an unstoppable force.

Dorjezigzag

6th February 2012, 02:50

TargeT

6th February 2012, 06:16

When you think of seriously scary episodes in your life. Life threatening incidents you don't have time to logicaly calculate the situation. There is fear you cannot escape it, but you can let it over take you and panic or freeze (which many do), or you can embrace it and go with the rush. Embrace (love) the fear. Some of my lucid moments in my life have been at these life threatening moments. I'm sure many others have had this experience.
I always remember a friend I had who was huge, looked like a member of ZZ top with a massive beard. He had a thing about he did not like to see dogs on chains, we were in a farming area once where there were huge ferocious guard dogs to protect the farms. He just would go up to them like they were puppy dogs, and these ferocious creatures would greet him like a long lost owner. He had no fear, just love and compassion for these dogs and they reacted to it. I saw them with anyone else and they wanted to rip there heads of. Animals sense fear, as we do.

yes, absolutely I reacted that way at first... haha but I guess practice makes perfect?

I used to be an adrenaline junky I've started snow sports around 4 years old, motorcycles followed then cars, what ever you can push right to that edge.. fight flight or freeze is a physical response but adrenaline is just a drug, I still get the rush I still FEEL the inputs but it doesn't have to change my decision making process, I'm not a fan of pain but it's nothing to fear, its just data.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/zTargeTz/TargeTsEvoTake2.jpg

one of my more exciting moments was the (last, heh) vehicle I totaled, as some times accidents do, you know when your ****ed.. haha those extreme cases are not quite the same, as I was in mortal danger, but you can still choose actions; I'm not sure that what I did helped or not but I did something..

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/zTargeTz/TargeTsEvo.jpg

I think once you face these types of incidents you can overcome that initial shock of death fear and act in the moment... here's the REAL problem, the ego cannot live in the present, it is either the past projected on the present or the past projected on the future (my current theory, I have no formal training or haven't done much reading in this area),,, I think we are SO USED to the ego's inputs always being there that when the reptilian brain takes over and we live in PURE AWARENESS, NOW and nothing else (in fear of imminent death) those inputs are gone, there's a silence... and time can feel like it slows down, but you don't need ego to be you, you can still decide to take actions.

I'm not so sure that's what we are talking about here though are we? the fear function has a place and its very limited..

being afraid to board a plane due to terrorists, or washing your hands when they aren't dirty, thinking that we need airport security, believing that police actually should be there to "keep you safe" things like this.. there is no reason for fear in every day life...

I feel I have to say this as I have a lot of knowledge in this area:
I appreciate your story of your friend approaching dogs with out fear, but the guy is a ****ing idiot.. haha that's a nice warm feel good story but that's NOT reality;
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/zTargeTz/IMG_1482.jpg
I breed LBG's (large breed guardians) & a space aggressive dog chained to ITS space will eat you when you enter its space no matter what attitude you approach it with (obviously not the case with him & I can read a dog very easily so it might have been an excited bark, not a fear / protection bark maybe he's the same way); your friend was probably lucky and stupid nothing else.. I don't fear dogs, but I know enough about them not to do what he did with out some serious scrutiny of the situation.

I will jump into a fight between my dogs, people think I'm crazy to do it but that is because they view it from a position of lacking knowledge, in my pack structure I can do what ever I want, I am the alpha male & that is how a pack functions, not bravery, rational; logical thought.

I've also been blown up a few times in IED attacks, but again,, its just an input, you still get to be you & make decisions... I don't know how I could have done it with out these brushes against the edge though; so I see how this is not a common mentality; we grow up ridiculously "safe" now; children can't even play with out pads or nets or what ever... I see people snowboarding with helmets,, I thought riding bikes with helmets was bad enough... and this hand sanitizer & vaccine push everywhere blows my mind... are we that dependent on external devices now, people carry "personal sized" bottles of that **** now.. I can't believe how easy it is to shape peoples thoughts!

Dorjezigzag

6th February 2012, 13:30

I enjoyed your post Target.

I appreciate your story of your friend approaching dogs with out fear, but the guy is a ****ing idiot.. haha that's a nice warm feel good story but that's NOT reality
I promise you 100% that guy was for real, he was a little 'touched' shall we say. I saw him do it with over 10 dogs, Rottweilers, Ridge backs, you name it. All these dogs were strangers to him before he met them. They were guard dogs, trained to be nasty. I have never seen anyone else do this to this kind of level. But to overcome fear with compassion can be a massive undertaking, easier said than done. He loved those dogs! Humans he was not as comfortable with!
O.K I'm going to get a bit cosmic again now:rolleyes:, an animal senses fear, but so does the universe and that can bite you as well!

Mark

7th February 2012, 03:26

I'm continually amazed by the diversity of souls that gather here at PA. I'm gratified, humbled and honored by your acquaintance and thank you for the moments of connection that we share:

Fear's in our very genes! We have had lifetimes of fearful imprinting so we are born with it. It part of our downloading of our genetic line from conception!! Couple that with religion telling us that we only have one life and this is it! Then we go to heaven or hell! Not much of choice. Stay frozen with fear in case we sin or have a merry old time and go to hell at the end of it!

Sounds about right to me. Considering that genes are able to be affected by language, it has to be possible that we can pass it down through our progeny as well. Original sin is not cool. Kind of makes going to Hell a foregone conclusion. It's good that a lot of people are waking up from that particular illusion.

Takes quite a bit to throw off all that imprinted belief system of garbage. The controllers have done a great job and were very nearly there!! Damm those rebels who said 'to hell' with all of that.

Or, like the bad guys always say in the movies to the other bad guys as they are locked in a vicious struggle to the death, "See you in Hell." It's a setup from the get-go. You can't win, you can't get even and you can't get out of the game, to quote the scarecrow, in the Wiz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r1ssg1LIt4).

Although we have as many perspectives as hair on a dog we are all rebels with a cause and all power to us. Sorry, gone off topic slightly but the members here and other places are the spiritual wedge in the grid of control. We don't all agree on everything, sure, but we all dare to be different and have suffered ridicule because of it. We have gone past the fear of not fitting in to the tribe.

Speak on it. :amen: I like that, "the spiritual wedge in the grid of control". Kind of gives what I feel is a notable perspective on what this forum and our interactions serve as. Oh don't get me started on the 'not fitting into the tribe' thing. As a perennial Outsider and representative Other (for obvious reasons) I have quite a lot to say on that topic. But it remains an issue, even here, in the so-called alternative community. One of the biggest issues.

I've been chronically ill for many years, and the government has often tried to pass it off as some kind of emotional thing. But they recently did some studies and determined that people with CFS or CFIDS did not have those chemicals that say you are in a depression that caused by a chemical imbalance. But people who have this do get depressed, because the damned disease destroys your life and causes you to feel pain almost all the time. That is very depressing!

ETM, thank you for sharing your life experience and perspective. I felt a bit bad for stating what I said to Mulder about how taking it into this area is 'off-topic', in retrospect, as I hate to limit conversation. My reason for stating such was that I didn't want to get into a debate in this thread about depression particularly as I wanted this thread to be about fear, primarily and not turn into a discussion and potential argument about medicine, science, clinical depression and what is real versus what is just 'in someone's head'. So I appreciate your measured comments and approach and would like to encourage Mulder to comment further on the topic if he wishes to. I have close family members who have been diagnosed with clinical depression so I understand the thin line that can exist between what a person believes and what the establishment prescribes. There is room for discussion on the topic.

I would not pretend to know what all depressions are. I am also from a family of folks with bipolar disease, and I have watched clinical depression work its destruction. Hmm, maybe that's the word you didn't use that maybe you should have, clinical? But I think not even all clinical depressions are strictly caused by chemical processes totally apart from our lives. Sometimes the chemicals in our daily lives set off those storms that can cause depression.

I would say there is no separation, everything that manifests is One. The chemical releases often occur because of our thought processes. Just coming to the lived understanding that the things we all call emotions are basically chemicals being processed by your body reveals the artificial line between 'subjective' and 'objective', as speaking on a topic in two different ways can reflect an internal (emotion-based) and external (chemical-based) perspective on the same phenomenon. Does that make sense? LOL This artificial separation is problematic, imho, and has allowed the scientific establishment to take possession of what traditionally has been part of the realm of spirituality, perhaps with good reason.

Basically, I would never suggest that anyone with a serious clinical depression not take medication for it (too many suicides in my extended family, as well!), but all depressions are not the same. Just my opinion.

... an opinion that is just as valid as any other. From University Health Services at Cal Berkeley:

Individuals with clinical depression are unable to function as they used to. Often they have lost interest in activities that were once enjoyable to them, and feel sad and hopeless for extended periods of time. Clinical depression is not the same as feeling sad or depressed for a few days and then feeling better. It can affect your body, mood, thoughts, and behavior. It can change your eating habits, how you feel and think, your ability to work and study, and how you interact with people. People who suffer from clinical depression often report that they "don't feel like themselves anymore."

Making the determination regarding the root causes of clinical depression must be difficult, when looking for symptoms. It seems that the length of time that one is depressed is the primary one. Life events could lead to clinical depression. Or, perhaps, some sort of genetic propensity. Coming from the perspective of an alternative understanding of the word, of human capabilities and of spirituality, it is also possible that there are other causes for it as well. Energetic causes, higher and lower dimensional causes.

Oh oh, was I supposed to say more?

You are just fine. Thank you so much for even dropping by!

I hope this clarify's FEAR for Mice Elf.

Yes, it does. Fear is, apparently, not a factor for you!! :cool:

I think once you face these types of incidents you can overcome that initial shock of death fear and act in the moment... here's the REAL problem, the ego cannot live in the present, it is either the past projected on the present or the past projected on the future (my current theory, I have no formal training or haven't done much reading in this area),,, I think we are SO USED to the ego's inputs always being there that when the reptilian brain takes over and we live in PURE AWARENESS, NOW and nothing else (in fear of imminent death) those inputs are gone, there's a silence... and time can feel like it slows down, but you don't need ego to be you, you can still decide to take actions.

Because there was such an extended convo between you and Dor, I can't comment on all of it but I'd like to thank you both for your salient and penetrating contributions to the thread. The above struck me particularly as being a great description of what it is like to live 'with' and 'beyond' the fear while simultaneously ignoring/transcending it. The shock of entering that heightened state of sensitivity is a detachment as the mind directs the body and the body carries out its orders beyond thought. For those who enter into that state, called "the Zone" by athletes and adrenaline junkies alike lol, everything is heightened.

I'm not so sure that's what we are talking about here though are we? the fear function has a place and its very limited..

Sure, it's part of it. Fear often serves as the initial shock that takes us either into the Zone or leaves us trembling and violently ejecting fluid and material from both ends as we thrash out gibbering on the floor.

being afraid to board a plane due to terrorists, or washing your hands when they aren't dirty, thinking that we need airport security, believing that police actually should be there to "keep you safe" things like this.. there is no reason for fear in every day life...

I would say there is a reason for everything. The question is, is that reason valid? Should I be afraid of the police? Do I have reason to be? Should I be afraid of getting on the plane? Germs? If you have an experience in your life where one of those causes have resulted in some pain, be it emotional or physical, then the pattern has been stamped into your consciousness and your synapses will fire between those neurons representing the memory in your mind whenever those conditions are once again approximated. So there is a physical impression, a biological hardwiring, that has to be supplanted by a new pattern that can only be implemented through conscious awareness of the pattern and a re-wiring of neurons into a more appropriate pattern utilizing whatever mental tools one might have in their psycho-spiritual toolbox.

I enjoyed your post Target.

As did I!

O.K I'm going to get a bit cosmic again now:rolleyes:, an animal senses fear, but so does the universe and that can bite you as well!

Hm. I also believe that there can be deeper reasons as to why we experience the things that we do. The conscious experience of the cosmos has left me convinced that my consciousness is an intimate co-creator in my reality and that there is no separation between myself and the environment, which includes other proactive and conscious BEings. The sychronicitious happenstance that binds us in experiential resonance, the incredible meaningfulness of each event, the repetition of certain themes in our lives, the reoccurance and intensification of themes that hinder our personal development all lead me to the inevitable conclusion that fear is one of the basic realities of living a 3D life that we have to come to grips with and learn to control in order to prepare ourselves for higher-level experiences in consciousness and co-creation with each other and the multiverse.

NeverMind

7th February 2012, 06:24

As quiet as it's kept, humans have the potential to control their bodies, to control their chemical emissions. As I stated above, our mental state controls the release of chemicals that result in the rush of emotions that we feel.

We have more than a potential to do so. We DO so, every single moment of our lives.

I can't believe this is still a "secret", but a secret it appears to be (to many people): emotions are more than reactions - they are COMMANDS.
This is not a metaphor.
Emotions are actual commands to your body (and not just the physically perceptible one).

I know I am basically repeating what you said, Rahkyt, but I always find it difficult to refrain from hammering this point - which is SO important - at every opportunity I get. :)

Mark

7th February 2012, 23:02

I understand, NM, and concur. The point can't be made enough. This clip remains the standard for me in understanding the emotions, how the mind works and how we can, if we can come to control our mental impulses, control the state of our body to the extent that we maintain ourselves in a higher state of health no matter our age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BkI8LD24y0
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BkI8LD24y0

TargeT

8th February 2012, 02:17

NeverMind

8th February 2012, 07:31

hidden in plain sight,, the BEST PLACE to hide it... its beautiful really (in a desparing macab sort of way..)

While I doubt anyone actually "hid" this mechanism, it's not a bad way of putting it.
It certainly emphasises the very, and inevitably, practical value of emotions, which is the subject of this thread.

eileenrose

8th February 2012, 09:16

Hi,
We suppress fear feelings all the time.
The truth is we are training ourselves to ignore this uncomfortable situation.
Finding a way to release that injustice, that crime (upon ourselves), of being full of fearful ideas, is a journey worth having.

Not so easy to accomplish. I am part way there myself (and glad of it....though hard to recommend to anyone as it will take
you far outside of societies do's and don'ts).

But when has it been a simple journey to live as a human being anyway?

Mark

9th February 2012, 19:54

Not so easy to accomplish. I am part way there myself (and glad of it....though hard to recommend to anyone as it will take you far outside of societies do's and don'ts).

I think this is a key point. As being outside of society is the worst punishment that most people can think of. Being ostracized. Different. That's a big, fear, up there with the biggest ones most of us carry along with us during life. I think even as we move along that gradient from being fearful to being fearless we tend to just collect in smaller and smaller groups until we're finally able to move beyond.

Muzz

11th February 2012, 11:02

I was gonna post a new thread for this but discovered this one instead. Thanks to all, this is a very helpful discussion.

ZUdHX1Bent0

Mark

11th February 2012, 13:58

An excellent contribution, Muzz, thank you so much for sharing it here. He makes the perfect point, the fear comes from 'not living your life, living in your mind'. Non-existent, 100% imaginary. Suffering the non-existential, = insanity. Many gems here.

Explodey

11th February 2012, 14:27

FEAR - is it not the base expression of self preservation? If not with fear we go blindly into the depths of pain?
If we allow pain to be part of the experience, then shall we live without fear?.. perhaps. But who can live without pain?
The agony of life is the the counter balance of joy. Fear maybe the measure for all who find less joy...
Perhaps then fear may be a choice of balance. All may decide to let go of self preservation and find life without fear...

Mark

11th February 2012, 17:33

At a certain point, that seems to be the goal, Explodey. Very well said. To move beyond the limitations that real and false fear hold for the organism. As someone said earlier, the fear of physical pain, of emotionl pain, fears based on very real dangers and fears based upon ephemeral illusions. The question of what is possible can only be answered by the individual. There are so many who believe so much, some things are possible for some people, other things are not. For those who believe in the limitations of physicality, then only certain advances can be made in this area. For others who believe in the lack of limitation upon physicality, then other advances can be made, other doors can be walked through.

We each make our own choices in the matter and decide what we are capable of. It seems to me that the only limitation upon consciousness are the ones that consciousness makes for itself. And those are very real, until we make different choices.

amandapoet

16th September 2012, 02:51

I must confess that their is a part of me that has come to embrace fear...because there is no feeling like when you conquer it. I guess what I am saying is fear has a purpose, and it is ultimately how we "choose" to use it that defines us.

Short example, when I was four I almost drowned at a family friend's pool. Until I was 13 I would not go in water over my head, eventually I wanted to dive with all the other kids at camp....I was by myself at the edge of the board, jumped and hit the bottom of 20 feet of the campground pool....the fear was gone...and I chose to face it....joined the swim team...lol.
But being able to face that fear on my terms has been instrumental for the way I face the obstacles I do now...and now I find myself thankful for the whole thing....

Mad Hatter

16th September 2012, 05:41

Seems to me that a deeper underlying tenet for the discussion laid out to date is the pre-requisite of actually 'caring' to start with... What lies behind that I wonder?

Are not each and every emotion, no matter how expressed, mere tools to be used when applicable on what to me seems to be nothing more than a voyage of discovery.

Fear is actually a very useful mechanism for survival in 4D (3D + time). Now for those claiming a realisation that they are infinite beings and have also mastered fear, a more interesting question then becomes why are you sill here and what is it that you 'care' about that holds or draws you here?

So what was Shakespeare getting at when he said "There is nothing good or bad except that thinking makes it so"