Avalonians: Perfectly "normal" paranoia or something else?

[peace]

I try to stop by this forum at least monthly; sometimes I do, sometimes a few months go by.

I joined, after just watching quitely as a non-member, and a few months BEFORE the atticus/charles hoopla. I considered this place a neat forum to come to and explore. Explore my mind, challenge my thoughts/beliefs, etc.

In my time here I've seen this place be pretty great and pretty god-awful.

But I worry.

I worry about patrons here and the level of paranoia displayed. Without a shred of proof given, bold claims are accepted as fact and not challenged (eg. Bruisch, Wilcock, Collier, Dr. Greer, Icke, etc., etc.). If challenged, the person who challenges is told they are brainwashed by the powers that be and "conditioned," etc.

I'm talking of things such as "doctors don't know what they are talking about," (all medicine is bad) "the gov't monitors everything," (everything????) "the education system is useless," "everything NASA does is a lie," etc. etc. There are too many to site, I'm giving examples and you understand my meaning.

I worry because, again, there hasn't been a stitch of real proof - at all. Just "trust me," and "you'll see," Sometimes, no proof is given at all; just the word of the source.

I worry because I see some of the patrons talking on here and spouting advice or giving information as if it was cold, hard proof of a way to live or a way to think, because "this is how it really is." Prove it.

Its smells to me and I worry people are living in paranoid states that are drastically imbalanced from rational thought. And I say this with a clinical background, (with some degree I'm sure doesn't mean much to some avalonians - doesn't mean much to my bank account either).

There is perfectly normal paranoia we all experience, "Is that person talking about me behind my back?", "Did I leave the door unlocked?" that we have and dismiss throughout the day. But some of this stuff, "The illuminati wants us all dead," seems like a lot. If you are going to say something like that, you should be able to back it up with something tangible, otherwise I think you are doing more harm than good.

Seems that if you don't back it up, you can really hurt the psyche of someone that can't take it. (which can be argued if some of these claims are backed up the psyche is damaged worse!!)

I mean this with respect. Please don't think I'm bashing anyone. It's just something I've watched in my short time here.

I humbly ask for thoughts/opinions.

[Sidney]

My opinion is, we all have formed our idea of reality around our individual personal experiences. If you haven't experienced anything weird than you may not think our reality is warped or scary. Each one of us is exposed to different experiences. That is how [B]I[B base my opions. I have seen enough corruption of authority, up close and personal. And I DON'T TRUST ANYONE because of it. Am I paranoid? IMO, no, I just happen to be privy to things that you may not have witnessed before.

example. I think most people probably didn't either believe in/ or did not care about the exsistence of UFOS, UNTIL they saw one with their own eyes. Same goes with anything else. Seeing IS believing.

[RMorgan]

I agree with you perfectly, my friend.

This is a very important subject that has been discussed many times, but it´s always good to talk about it from time to time.

In my opinion, anyone can make bold claims, promises or predictions, IF such things are accompanied by equally bold evidences and proof.

I can´t even count how many claims/promises/predictions have been posted and discussed here, that haven´t become true. In fact, I can´t remember of any that actually came to happen.

Still, some people continue to believe the perpetrators of such claims.

Now, the ultimate fashion is to make such bold claims disguised as "channeled messages". It´s much better, because, if those claims never happen, the person could not be held responsible and discredited, because, you know, you can´t shoot the messenger. ;)

Besides, there´s no way to even ask for evidence when your claims are the results of a "channeling".

These people are smart, right?

Cheers,

Raf.

[Billy]

My opinion is, To many worries there.

LanCLS_hIo4

Peace

[seantimberwolf]

When i lived in Ireland i made friends with a Russian guy called Dimitri.
As an inquisitive soul i used to ask him about his homeland.
And inevitably i asked about the communist regime.
I asked him "what was it like, are you glad it ended"
I thought i knew about the "reds" regime, the oppression, the slavery, no freedom of thought etc etc.
But what Dimitri told me shocked me.
he said "when it was communist we knew what we was in for, there where not many lies, but with capitalism money is a means to hide secrets and bribe even your family at times"
He told me how there was freedom, and how it was not as extreme as the west made it, that no one wanted for more than they needed.
People worked, for a greater good.
I tried to argue a point against communism, but eventually i realized that i was trying to prove my point on something i knew nothing about.
I decided to agree to disagree, but he said one final thing along the lines of.
I have lived under both and i can tell you I'm more unhappy now that i have to worry about trivial things.

The point is this, we cannot judge other peoples opinions and beliefs because they are ultimately based upon our own.
Lies will always be lies it does not matter weather they are harmless or harmfully.
We HAVE to be vigilant, otherwise this will go too far and we will loose to many good people who really want the truth.

[Borden]

I'm largely with you, and I can't disagree with the list of names you cite, except for Icke. The others you listed? In my opinion? Pah ... but I think Icke is a strenuous and credible researcher. His conclusions are open for debate obviously, but he doesn't just pull all that stuff out of his a** like the others. I don't know if you've read any of his books, but I really wouldn't lump him in with those other people you listed.

I'm completely with you on the 'trust me' brigade. I feel the same. I'm not even bigging up David Icke particularly, I just think he deserves more credit than the Wilcocks of this world. We can disagree on that and it's absolutely cool with me ... I'm just glad to see an infrequent poster speak up as neither a true believer who'll fall for anything or a dyed in the wool naysayer. Maybe you should post here more often!

Borden

[jaybee]

.

I hear you, Peace.....dogmatism and smug know-it-all-ness (exhibited by some)... is one of the down-sides to this forum.

It's like a form of propaganda...IMO....and I think some do it deliberately while others just get a bit carried away?

nice opening post...thanks

[seantimberwolf]

I'm largely with you, and I can't disagree with the list of names you cite, except for Icke. The others you listed? In my opinion? Pah ... but I think Icke is a strenuous and credible researcher. His conclusions are open for debate obviously, but he doesn't just pull all that stuff out of his a** like the others. I don't know if you've read any of his books, but I really wouldn't lump him in with those other people you listed.

I'm completely with you on the 'trust me' brigade. I feel the same. I'm not even bigging up David Icke particularly, I just think he deserves more credit than the Wilcocks of this world. We can disagree on that and it's absolutely cool with me ... I'm just glad to see an infrequent poster speak up as neither a true believer who'll fall for anything or a dyed in the wool naysayer. Maybe you should post here more often!

Borden

The problem is Borden that the non Light and Lovers as i call it, are normally trolled to a certain degree
I have tried to post posts like this in the past but was met with almost "aggressive" criticism.
And it makes you feel like that there is no one to connect with but I'm hopping that we can catalyze this type of thread maybe even make these kind of "reality threads"

[xbusymom]

I spent about 2 years exploring this site and then was absent for about a year... only to find that it was still in a variable state of flux and upset...
and the need to direct your own balancing of what you believe/spout should come from your own life-experiences and belief system-


As long as you have the time and are open-minded enough to investigate whatever interests you are curious about on the board- you should have no problem in joining into the many debates...

there have been undercover disinformers discovered, but most people are simply drawn to certain topics that they resonate with and the board is packed with links, stories, articles, etc from all areas of the world. that is a great boon to us in the U.S where we are fed fairy-tales instead of real-life news from the mass media... or to others where the connect-the-dots path flows into other topics that may have possible connections- in either case... we are all just trying to figure out what the *^#^&) is going on in our world and how it relates to our daily lives...

certainly people do get carried away and sometimes that is simply the nature of the journey...

you (anyone) definately should never blindly accept another persons' viewpoint without first testing it out against your own gut feelings or intuition... but just like everything else in life... buyer beware

[peace]

thank you for the reply! but the question remains.

(meant for the poster of the video, sorry - still don't have the posting buttons figured out!!)

[pugwash84]

When you read on any internet forum or read into anything, you have to read with a bit of common sense. xx

[Borden]

I'm largely with you, and I can't disagree with the list of names you cite, except for Icke. The others you listed? In my opinion? Pah ... but I think Icke is a strenuous and credible researcher. His conclusions are open for debate obviously, but he doesn't just pull all that stuff out of his a** like the others. I don't know if you've read any of his books, but I really wouldn't lump him in with those other people you listed.

I'm completely with you on the 'trust me' brigade. I feel the same. I'm not even bigging up David Icke particularly, I just think he deserves more credit than the Wilcocks of this world. We can disagree on that and it's absolutely cool with me ... I'm just glad to see an infrequent poster speak up as neither a true believer who'll fall for anything or a dyed in the wool naysayer. Maybe you should post here more often!

Borden

The problem is Borden that the non Light and Lovers as i call it, are normally trolled to a certain degree
I have tried to post posts like this in the past but was met with almost "aggressive" criticism.
And it makes you feel like that there is no one to connect with but I'm hopping that we can catalyze this type of thread maybe even make these kind of "reality threads"

You and me both, Sean!

Love and light is one thing, if genuine a wonderful thing I'm sure ... but in my view it's a slimy veneer often, and to see it in a slightly fascistic form here is both terrifying and hilarious. I don't know if you saw my 'con-artists' thread, but I think I actually got off pretty lightly there! There are plenty of intelligent people here as you know, and I hate the thought that there have to be separate 'camps', but it seems almost inevitable. I don't want to see peace or people like him/her (sorry, don't know!) put off, and he/she obviously has been to an extent.

If you start something and people troll you come and get me ... (said in best Gurney Halleck voice, young Paul!). This is as much our forum as it is theirs. Bill Ryan doesn't strike me as an idiot, even if I think he's been taken in before. Even the intelligent can be taken in if they are genuinely looking for the truth. If it's not Harkonnens it's Bene Gesserit witches or Mentats, and then there are the Tleilaxu to consider ... things get complicated!

(Sorry peace if you're not a 'Dune' fan.) Please keep posting. I'm glad you're speaking up.

Borden

[seantimberwolf]

I'm largely with you, and I can't disagree with the list of names you cite, except for Icke. The others you listed? In my opinion? Pah ... but I think Icke is a strenuous and credible researcher. His conclusions are open for debate obviously, but he doesn't just pull all that stuff out of his a** like the others. I don't know if you've read any of his books, but I really wouldn't lump him in with those other people you listed.

I'm completely with you on the 'trust me' brigade. I feel the same. I'm not even bigging up David Icke particularly, I just think he deserves more credit than the Wilcocks of this world. We can disagree on that and it's absolutely cool with me ... I'm just glad to see an infrequent poster speak up as neither a true believer who'll fall for anything or a dyed in the wool naysayer. Maybe you should post here more often!

Borden

The problem is Borden that the non Light and Lovers as i call it, are normally trolled to a certain degree
I have tried to post posts like this in the past but was met with almost "aggressive" criticism.
And it makes you feel like that there is no one to connect with but I'm hopping that we can catalyze this type of thread maybe even make these kind of "reality threads"

You and me both, Sean!

Love and light is one thing, if genuine a wonderful thing I'm sure ... but in my view it's a slimy veneer often, and to see it in a slightly fascistic form here is both terrifying and hilarious. I don't know if you saw my 'con-artists' thread, but I think I actually got off pretty lightly there! There are plenty of intelligent people here as you know, and I hate the thought that there have to be separate 'camps', but it seems almost inevitable. I don't want to see peace or people like him/her (sorry, don't know!) put off, and he/she obviously has been to an extent.

If you start something and people troll you come and get me ... (said in best Gurney Halleck voice, young Paul!). This is as much our forum as it is theirs. Bill Ryan doesn't strike me as an idiot, even if I think he's been taken in before. Even the intelligent can be taken in if they are genuinely looking for the truth. If it's not Harkonnens it's Bene Gesserit witches or Mentats, and then there are the Tleilaxu to consider ... things get complicated!

(Sorry peace if you're not a 'Dune' fan.) Please keep posting. I'm glad you're speaking up.

Borden

Indeed Borden,
For us fellow Fremin it is hard, our warrior spirit can intimidate others of a softer nature.
I agree L.A.L is fantastic if it genuinely is real and meant.
But it is used as a clicky term, and for us who find it hard to love those who fool us for financial gain (enter Bill Wood), we are not invited.
But i think after this Bill Wood thing people are going to be coming into our caves asking how to use a stillsuit :)

[peace]

I think liking Dune is a forum requirement for membership!

I guess my main point is; there are some, what I would call, unhealthy things said/acted upon/talked about at this forum that don't seem to have any basis in the real world, as I know it. I'm open-minded, and consider myself at least somehwhat, "awake," etc. but don't seem to have these same perceptions/outlooks.

I have had, what I think one would call "paranormal" experiences. I have seen things in the night sky that defy explanation. Doesn't mean there isn't one. Doesn't mean what the gov't or television or science tells me isn't the explination, also doesn't mean any of us/them are right.

... Probably why I'm at avalon in the first place.

But with a healthy skepticism.

And if someone trolls me ... ha. Well. I'll treat them like the children they are.

[Borden]

Good to hear from someone who won't be intimidated!

No! (Cringe) ... I think that might be just me and Sean, sorry, haha. We recently discovered we were fellow Dune fans, and we may have gone overboard on your thread! Sorry. But by God ... if I find out you're a Mentat ...

I'll shut up now, i apologise.

Yes, I understand and agree, but me and Sean talking silly wasn't a part of that, I'm sorry. This place seems more and more to be a roosting place for the witless and credulous, and believe me when I say I measure my words. I can be silly, frivolous, irreverent ... but I never forget why I came here in the first place. You're not being treated in a light hearted manner, and I'm sorry if I accidentally gave that impression. And like I said to Sean (who I'm sure doesn't really need my support any more than you do) ... if we're fighting trolls, let's do it back to back , my friend! I welcome them. Let's flush this toilet.

Borden

[Bollinger]

I try to stop by this forum at least monthly; sometimes I do, sometimes a few months go by.

I joined, after just watching quitely as a non-member, and a few months BEFORE the atticus/charles hoopla. I considered this place a neat forum to come to and explore. Explore my mind, challenge my thoughts/beliefs, etc.

In my time here I've seen this place be pretty great and pretty god-awful.

But I worry.

I worry about patrons here and the level of paranoia displayed. Without a shred of proof given, bold claims are accepted as fact and not challenged (eg. Bruisch, Wilcock, Collier, Dr. Greer, Icke, etc., etc.). If challenged, the person who challenges is told they are brainwashed by the powers that be and "conditioned," etc.

I'm talking of things such as "doctors don't know what they are talking about," (all medicine is bad) "the gov't monitors everything," (everything????) "the education system is useless," "everything NASA does is a lie," etc. etc. There are too many to site, I'm giving examples and you understand my meaning.

I worry because, again, there hasn't been a stitch of real proof - at all. Just "trust me," and "you'll see," Sometimes, no proof is given at all; just the word of the source.

I worry because I see some of the patrons talking on here and spouting advice or giving information as if it was cold, hard proof of a way to live or a way to think, because "this is how it really is." Prove it.

Its smells to me and I worry people are living in paranoid states that are drastically imbalanced from rational thought. And I say this with a clinical background, (with some degree I'm sure doesn't mean much to some avalonians - doesn't mean much to my bank account either).

There is perfectly normal paranoia we all experience, "Is that person talking about me behind my back?", "Did I leave the door unlocked?" that we have and dismiss throughout the day. But some of this stuff, "The illuminati wants us all dead," seems like a lot. If you are going to say something like that, you should be able to back it up with something tangible, otherwise I think you are doing more harm than good.

Seems that if you don't back it up, you can really hurt the psyche of someone that can't take it. (which can be argued if some of these claims are backed up the psyche is damaged worse!!)

I mean this with respect. Please don't think I'm bashing anyone. It's just something I've watched in my short time here.

I humbly ask for thoughts/opinions.

Well said. But it will fall on deaf ears. The weight of opinion here is simply against the sentiments you convey because a very large majority of what is asserted on this forum is offered to us to accept or reject by using, what is affectionately knows as “discernment”. I have struggled to understand how that is supposed to work. Other than seeing how you “feel” about a person or the information, (and people genuinely do put a lot of emphasis and trust on it), I don’t see what else discernment is supposed to give us. It most certainly isn't proof of anything.

Everything seems to be driven by how things “resonate” with the individual. In short, what that means is people with similar beliefs will have no trouble agreeing with each other and rather than a den of valuable information, the forum becomes a therapy session for like minded people exchanging strange and weird things that happen to them.

As a result, we end up with faith in things based on trusting someone we admire and respect, and it doesn’t seem to matter whether the information comes directly or by proxy.

If you claim to know incredible things because you have access to insider information or some other celestial source, you may easily perch yourself on Avalon and there would be 50 approvals stamped all across your post in the first 10 minutes of having submitted it. Do you suppose those people scurried away to look for proof of what you claimed and having found it, couldn’t wait to press the thank you button? Alas, a rhetorical question.

And if you do find yourself drowning in endless claims for which there is absolutely no base or foundation and dare to ask for proof, well I’m afraid you simply don’t get it. That’s old school. You must have the power to instantly know things without proof. If you lack this power, those in possession of it cannot help you. Of course, what people fail to realise is that such a position lends itself perfectly to any group of individuals who subscribe to any one the many religions out there, mainstream or otherwise.

Do we really need another religion? Whether it is creating your own reality or praying to Allah or sacrificing your life for Jesus? So much spirituality, so much good intention and yet a world with so little to show for it; isn’t that the most horrendous paradox?

[seantimberwolf]

I try to stop by this forum at least monthly; sometimes I do, sometimes a few months go by.

I joined, after just watching quitely as a non-member, and a few months BEFORE the atticus/charles hoopla. I considered this place a neat forum to come to and explore. Explore my mind, challenge my thoughts/beliefs, etc.

In my time here I've seen this place be pretty great and pretty god-awful.

But I worry.

I worry about patrons here and the level of paranoia displayed. Without a shred of proof given, bold claims are accepted as fact and not challenged (eg. Bruisch, Wilcock, Collier, Dr. Greer, Icke, etc., etc.). If challenged, the person who challenges is told they are brainwashed by the powers that be and "conditioned," etc.

I'm talking of things such as "doctors don't know what they are talking about," (all medicine is bad) "the gov't monitors everything," (everything????) "the education system is useless," "everything NASA does is a lie," etc. etc. There are too many to site, I'm giving examples and you understand my meaning.

I worry because, again, there hasn't been a stitch of real proof - at all. Just "trust me," and "you'll see," Sometimes, no proof is given at all; just the word of the source.

I worry because I see some of the patrons talking on here and spouting advice or giving information as if it was cold, hard proof of a way to live or a way to think, because "this is how it really is." Prove it.

Its smells to me and I worry people are living in paranoid states that are drastically imbalanced from rational thought. And I say this with a clinical background, (with some degree I'm sure doesn't mean much to some avalonians - doesn't mean much to my bank account either).

There is perfectly normal paranoia we all experience, "Is that person talking about me behind my back?", "Did I leave the door unlocked?" that we have and dismiss throughout the day. But some of this stuff, "The illuminati wants us all dead," seems like a lot. If you are going to say something like that, you should be able to back it up with something tangible, otherwise I think you are doing more harm than good.

Seems that if you don't back it up, you can really hurt the psyche of someone that can't take it. (which can be argued if some of these claims are backed up the psyche is damaged worse!!)

I mean this with respect. Please don't think I'm bashing anyone. It's just something I've watched in my short time here.

I humbly ask for thoughts/opinions.

Well said. But it will fall on deaf ears. The weight of opinion here is simply against the sentiments you convey because a very large majority of what is asserted on this forum is offered to us to accept or reject by using, what is affectionately knows as “discernment”. I have struggled to understand how that is supposed to work. Other than seeing how you “feel” about a person or the information, (and people genuinely do put a lot of emphasis and trust on it), I don’t see what else discernment is supposed to give us. It most certainly isn't proof of anything.

Everything seems to be driven by how things “resonate” with the individual. In short, what that means is people with similar beliefs will have no trouble agreeing with each other and rather than a den of valuable information, the forum becomes a therapy session for like minded people exchanging strange and weird things that happen to them.

As a result, we end up with faith in things based on trusting someone we admire and respect, and it doesn’t seem to matter whether the information comes directly or by proxy.

If you claim to know incredible things because you have access to insider information or some other celestial source, you may easily perch yourself on Avalon and there would be 50 approvals stamped all across your post in the first 10 minutes of having submitted it. Do you suppose those people scurried away to look for proof of what you claimed and having found it, couldn’t wait to press the thank you button? Alas, a rhetorical question.

And if you do find yourself drowning in endless claims for which there is absolutely no base or foundation and dare to ask for proof, well I’m afraid you simply don’t get it. That’s old school. You must have the power to instantly know things without proof. If you lack this power, those in possession of it cannot help you. Of course, what people fail to realise is that such a position lends itself perfectly to any group of individuals who subscribe to any one the many religions out there, mainstream or otherwise.

Do we really need another religion? Whether it is creating your own reality or praying to Allah or sacrificing your life for Jesus? So much spirituality, so much good intention and yet a world with so little to show for it; isn’t that the most horrendous paradox?


Quite right friend i do also feel that sometimes this forum is exhibiting many traits of religion.
People make many decisions on faith, respect, and resonance.
Which like you said is a generic terminology for people who have similar views.
Me personnel i believe it is used to hide from truth and as a way of avoiding asking obvious questions about source material.
For instance if someone comes onto this site and posts a long thread about being channeled by some spirit being from the Paledies.
Anyone who likes the idea of this Utopian world that the person speaks of and tells us is "upon us" then people "resonate" with it, but what there really doing is fooling themselves into believing it instead of asking questions first.
And it can become annoying to be in the minority of those who don't resonate with this nonsense (sorry personnel opinion)

SeanTW

[anthony]

I'm largely with you, and I can't disagree with the list of names you cite, except for Icke. The others you listed? In my opinion? Pah ... but I think Icke is a strenuous and credible researcher. His conclusions are open for debate obviously, but he doesn't just pull all that stuff out of his a** like the others. I don't know if you've read any of his books, but I really wouldn't lump him in with those other people you listed.

I'm completely with you on the 'trust me' brigade. I feel the same. I'm not even bigging up David Icke particularly, I just think he deserves more credit than the Wilcocks of this world. We can disagree on that and it's absolutely cool with me ... I'm just glad to see an infrequent poster speak up as neither a true believer who'll fall for anything or a dyed in the wool naysayer. Maybe you should post here more often!

Borden
Hiya dude, respect yurr comments.
I read wilcocks 'source field investigations' book over the christmas period, its loaded with scientific data and references to the scientists and the researches etc. i admire his work as i do with david ickes work too.

[seantimberwolf]

Also I'm sorry for Hijacking your post Peace with DUNE references, as Borden said we recently discovered that we are DUNE fans and its a small club not many people like it.
But I'm sure you do,
But i will say its surprising the amount of similarities between DUNE and this situation and the whole thing in general.
Food for thought
Or maybe Spice for thought :confused:
Okay ill stop now, so sorry,

SeanTW

[Borden]

I'm largely with you, and I can't disagree with the list of names you cite, except for Icke. The others you listed? In my opinion? Pah ... but I think Icke is a strenuous and credible researcher. His conclusions are open for debate obviously, but he doesn't just pull all that stuff out of his a** like the others. I don't know if you've read any of his books, but I really wouldn't lump him in with those other people you listed.

I'm completely with you on the 'trust me' brigade. I feel the same. I'm not even bigging up David Icke particularly, I just think he deserves more credit than the Wilcocks of this world. We can disagree on that and it's absolutely cool with me ... I'm just glad to see an infrequent poster speak up as neither a true believer who'll fall for anything or a dyed in the wool naysayer. Maybe you should post here more often!

Borden
Hiya dude, respect yurr comments.
I read wilcocks 'source field investigations' book over the christmas period, its loaded with scientific data and references to the scientists and the researches etc. i admire his work as i do with david ickes work too.

Look, a big part of what speaks to me is my intuition. That is not a flaky, arbitrary, make-it-up-as-you-go-along thing. When coupled with an understanding of human psychology (as it certainly is with me) ... one man's valid researcher is another man's leering little hobgoblin after your coin. Don't get me started on Wilcock. I know exactly what I see when I see him talk and hear his voice. That will have to remain in the arena of my personal opinion though ... however ludicrous and unjust that seems to me.

Intuition aside, there's a big difference between a person honestly presenting his research and slimily milking people. I can't prove anything and neither can you. I know what my gut, my intelligence and my heart tell me. I respect you mate for posting the way you did, but I can't honestly stand here and say "oh, maybe you're right about David Wilcock". I firmly believe you're not. Sorry. No offense meant. Slag Icke to me, I will honestly listen, I swear. I'm prepared to be proved right or wrong, so long as my understanding advances, I mean it.

Best wishes,

Borden

[seantimberwolf]

I think the problem with Wilcock is whenever some kind of "huge thing" is going to happen
He HAS to be involved and his claim to be Edgar Casey reincarnated is quite extreme, absolutely not outside the realms of possibility, as i believe that reincarnation is real.
But to choose someone who was an accurate prophet and then go down the path he went down with his carrier is quite coincidental.
Maybe a bit too much for me.
Icke on the other hand does do allot of his own work
SeanTW

[anthony]

[QUOTE=Borden;421645].

Look, a big part of what speaks to me is my intuition. That is not a flaky, arbitrary, make-it-up-as-you-go-along thing. When coupled with an understanding of human psychology (as it certainly is with me) ... one man's valid researcher is another man's leering little hobgoblin after your coin. Don't get me started on Wilcock. I know exactly what I see when I see him talk and hear his voice. That will have to remain in the arena of my personal opinion though ... however ludicrous and unjust that seems to me.

Intuition aside, there's a big difference between a person honestly presenting his research and slimily milking people. I can't prove anything and neither can you. I know what my gut, my intelligence and my heart tell me. I respect you mate for posting the way you did, but I can't honestly stand here and say "oh, maybe you're right about David Wilcock". I firmly believe you're not. Sorry. No offense meant. Slag Icke to me, I will honestly listen, I swear. I'm prepared to be proved right or wrong, so long as my understanding advances, I mean it.

Best wishes,

Borden

Fair enuff fella, no offense taken, i cant slag icke off one bit, i truly respect his work.
best wishes to you too :)

[anthony]

whats your thoughts on the $27 trillion law suit, that has been presented by wilcock amongst others?
that questions goes to any1 wishing to add their thoughts

[peace]

whats your thoughts on the $27 trillion law suit, that has been presented by wilcock amongst others?
that questions goes to any1 wishing to add their thoughts

To be fair to you, anthony, I shouldn't even post this as I find him lacking very much in the credibility dept. It should also be noted that, though I find him lacking, I check his stuff from time-to-time just to see if any of it seems legit. I find him to remain lacking, most of the time:

Seems like Wilcock, again, saying "this is a source I have, very high up," and then we are supposed to trust him. I suppose more of the same; A carefully crafted story. Nothing like telling people, online, using your own website, that people are in danger, high stakes, tons of money is involved. Last I checked the interview was transcribed, audio would be nice (there could be some, since I last checked), but still wouldn't prove anything.

He should go to some law enforcement agency or a high profile lawyer - oh, but they are under the illumanti control - or break it on SEVERAL websites and news sources - oh, but other news sources are under illumanti control as well, they'd never pick it up -
how convienent for him and his pay for info website - how convienent for others that spin their stories, to those of us that would love to see honest disclosure. He should do this - but he won't.

[Gardener]

I want to join your club! :) 'Peace', 'Sean', 'Borden' and all who are not subscribing to the delusions and misperceptions created by whoever for whatever. (usually money, that awesome power tool of so many.) They would be empty without it, at least for a while.

This 'work' is too hard for many and a way through the difficulties is 'magical thinking' the 'just world' theory of it will all be ok so just trust it and believe.
In saying this I am not writing off many of the theories out there, we need to be vigilant, suspicious, ask the difficult questions. To call that paranoia shows a lack of knowledge about paranoia. Paranoia is a pathology in which the sufferer believes something or someone is 'out to get them' or whatever, when there is NO EVIDENCE to support the belief. It is not paranoia when there is evidence.

Testing some of these theories is not difficult, like who benefits from the propaganda, in particular the belief that everything is 'out there' 'over there' 'up there' anywhere but inside a human psyche. Its the same with blame, someone else did it, scape goats have been around for millenia. The key word I am thinking here is manipulation, we are manipulated a lot on all sides, I see it here on avalon, I see it in msm, social constructs, and worst of all in our families, friendships, and under our own roof. We do it too, all of us, conscious and unconscious; manipulation is a real key to understanding what it means to wake up and see it, stop doing it, and stop allowing others to do it to us.

LOL my dogs are doing it right now, that look :) 'I love you so much mom, please feed me'

with love
g

[ulli]

A forum is a group, and inside any group there is movement...just like you would see when watching a flock of birds.
Some group members strive towards consensus while others want only to distinguish themselves from the crowd.
By the time one has measured which is the dominant factor everything has shifted again.
Even within myself I have seen shifts during the last twelve months; paranoia levels going up and down, certainty levels going up and down, confidence levels going up and down.
The question remains...would I still come here if it was proven beyond a doubt that all these whistleblowers were liars?
I would still be scratching my head about one thing: those UFOs I saw, and the many photographs of missing children on various notice boards in American stores.
And why isn't that big news in the MSM?
Why was there only big news about Jon Bene Ramsey, when the real story is obviously so much bigger?
So to find answers to these kinds of questions one would seek out a forum where there are people who might be able to shed light.
Then one finds there is a massive element of disinformation on these sites.
This raises only more questions...in my world there aren't that many people who would go out of their way day after day, and sit in a chair and write what to me is obvious disinfo.
What motivates them? A pay cheque of course.
So again, more new questions....in the quest for truth there are moments like on any adventure, panic, relief, terror...
the whole dragon quest of old, except now it's more on a mental plane than the physical.
We live on a planet of diversity, and the menu is huge.
How each one chooses their next attitude and course of action is in the end all that remains.
A private matter.

[andrewgreen]

People make their own minds up. To assume because people haven't commented that they accept something is pretty presumptuous. I don't think any members of the alternative media have gone unchallenged on this forum, we don't all have to agree or disagree with something. If someone makes a point we don't have to challenge what they say as I'd hope were mature enough to accept everyone has their own opinions.

Contrary to the criticism you make about us all being to gullible you criticise us all for being paranoid because of just a few. I think your ego has perhaps got the better of you in this ill thought out judgement of a whole bunch of individuals. I learned at quite an early age stereotyping and generalising were not helpful.

[NeverMind]

I
want to join your club! http://projectavalon.net/images/smilies/new/smile.gif 'Peace', 'Sean', 'Borden' and all who are not subscribing to the delusions and misperceptions created by whoever for whatever.

Apparently the "club" has been reduced by yet another member, because I see Peace is gone, too.
Quite a few members, not all of them necessarily popular (but I, for one, liked the energy of their input), have left or were dismissed in the past few days or weeks.
Why?
That's the question.

[Carmody]

My opinion is, we all have formed our idea of reality around our individual personal experiences. If you haven't experienced anything weird than you may not think our reality is warped or scary. Each one of us is exposed to different experiences. That is how [B]I[B base my opions. I have seen enough corruption of authority, up close and personal. And I DON'T TRUST ANYONE because of it. Am I paranoid? IMO, no, I just happen to be privy to things that you may not have witnessed before.

example. I think most people probably didn't either believe in/ or did not care about the exsistence of UFOS, UNTIL they saw one with their own eyes. Same goes with anything else. Seeing IS believing.

eg, I've seen 'UFO" type things and I saw, back in 2001 or so a 'shooting star', one could say. That was a neat one. When it takes the form of being a reddish/violet 'shooting star', with a tail, that runs across the sky. Not that unusual..but....

Problem.

There were TWO of them, and they spiraled around each other. (at a fair distance apart) Nice....'shooting star', there.

reading a bit deeper in to this thread the problem is that many of us go forward looking for change in the world, digging everywhere to find it, but few realize that the shift of perceptive required comes from the inside. And the person is looking for answers.

And that the system of incarnation is designed to keep the body safe.

That the system of incarnation has an auto-driver/autopilot feature that deals with the entire edifice, including in and out information flow.

That the search for perspective in difficult situations does indeed ring the alarm bells of the 'edifice control and safety 'life retention' system'. To clarify, the part of the body's function that causes your arm to recoil from a burn, or shock of pain, that same system is MUCH more complex and involved than one considers. It ALSO shapes and filters all incoming and outgoing data flow into the mind.... and ALSO deals with base emotional considerations of said flow.
It is also designed to self protect....so that only a truly seasoned inner explorer will find the methods and ways of shutting that system down in it's levels of 'existence influence'.

People go "yeah, yeah, yeah Carmody, we know what you are talking about, that's not the point.'

And I say 'no', I move you over to a chair, look you in the eye..and say to you that.. 'no you don't, you miss the core issue'. The new perspective is inside, the blocks and lock on the doorways inside are the place where the new perspective you seek - is.

Perception and knowledge has two faces or components, one might say. One is the data and the other is the capacity to perceive. Like an athlete who shifts the life around to accommodate the body's need to be different to complete the tasks at very high achievement levels, if one desires complex and 'heightened knowledge', then one must address the root systems of human capacity. This is obvious, in retrospect.

Ask the self why this needs to be stated and not just perceived and be given lip service to..but to be taken on as a reality of changing inner function. Ask why this is noted ---but not done. (oh look, there's another external thing to chase!)


The body's ego function, in control of all data flow and the emotional control of all formation of thought function and shaping..that edifice or inner program steers you away from the next step of looking inside to shift knowledge and perspective to new levels. Basically the ego will tell you anything you want to hear and it will also start to go crazy with paranoia and projections in outlandish manners and ways....as you approach it. Anything that can be used to push you away from looking at it. (like and angry. fearful, scared and incredibly imaginative 5 year old driving a car, sort of... but really...a body and it's input-output systems)

To the point that you might have an emotional rise bout this post, one in the negative. That's how insidious it is. The inner and outer state tend to reflect one another, so the searcher on the outside world is also an inner searcher, one trying to fix the self but the ego makes you go on walkabouts all over the world. In any kind of way. Anything but to look inside.

The least expensive AND MOST EFFECTIVE way to help this planet is something that everyone can do at any time. Which is to look inside and change that data flow and connection system so that new perspective can be found.

If one seeks that 'fearlessness of knowing', in order to move forward ...well..ultimately...it will never be found externally, but it can always be found inside. If it is always done externally, then the systems erected will ultimately fail. (only 50% of the job would be completed-not even 50% actually, as you can't achieve a minimum balance in systems that are not even 50% addressed)

To do it from the inside first as a perspective and functional change, this heads toward a state of favorable permanent change in level for the self... AND humanity.

Paranoia sometimes is a sign that one is trying to understand complex issues and approaching the inner self issues. To paraphrase, it isn't paranoia.... when your ego is out to control you.

As the outer-world slips into conflict an offshoot of that - is paranoia via questioning the world and the self.

The ego projects sureties from those wild swings of contemplation (with little data available), it projects them out into the world, trying to gain reflection back that agrees with that projection..and we find ourselves casting things about, in order to try and make sense...so the ego can feel safe and the body can feel comfortable.

It is not just the complex external matters...(which are complex only due to the inner world not being capable of perceiving ---yet) it is the physiology of the psychology of the design and operation of the being that is perceiving. This is key..... to this current world situation.

Free your mind... and you ass will follow.

How many of us have heard that line.... but have no idea how deep it goes?

[Ascension]

I've noticed that quite a few members have moved to another forum and I'm not sure I understand why. This other forum frequently posts references to materials from Avalon and Camelot.

Several posters in this forum have recently become irritated with the amount of channeled material posted here. There has been a good deal of name-calling and lining up and taking sides behind individuals and putting down those who don't line up. I've heard mention of certain people being scientologists. I don't know how that figures into what is happening. There seems to be quite a bit of "territorial" fighting going on between forums which started in earnest after the Charles material was posted, and heated up after the Bill Wood interviews on Camelot?

This whole thing reminds me of the soap operaesque drama surrounding the early days of the 9-11 truther movement where the in-fighting was actually destructive to the movement. Instead of fighting the perceived enemy, they were all fighting amongst themselves.

This in-fighting is also happening at Rense.com.

Does anyone have the "big picture" of what is happening to this forum? For me, there is some material I follow and some material I ignore on this forum and other forums. I follow multiple forums to get a broad range of topics. But I really don't understand this forum-hopping, tantrum-throwing trend of late. Afterall, forums are simply a place to discuss ideas, aren't they?

[peace]

I've noticed that quite a few members have moved to another forum and I'm not sure I understand why. This other forum frequently posts references to materials from Avalon and Camelot.

Several posters in this forum have recently become irritated with the amount of channeled material posted here. There has been a good deal of name-calling and lining up and taking sides behind individuals and putting down those who don't line up. I've heard mention of certain people being scientologists. I don't know how that figures into what is happening. There seems to be quite a bit of "territorial" fighting going on between forums which started in earnest after the Charles material was posted, and heated up after the Bill Wood interviews on Camelot?

This whole thing reminds me of the soap operaesque drama surrounding the early days of the 9-11 truther movement where the in-fighting was actually destructive to the movement. Instead of fighting the perceived enemy, they were all fighting amongst themselves.

This in-fighting is also happening at Rense.com.

Does anyone have the "big picture" of what is happening to this forum? For me, there is some material I follow and some material I ignore on this forum and other forums. I follow multiple forums to get a broad range of topics. But I really don't understand this forum-hopping, tantrum-throwing trend of late. Afterall, forums are simply a place to discuss ideas, aren't they?

honestly, I'm not one of the original "ground" floor people and have been only activve for a relatively short time here - heck - I just "came out of retirement" (my username, etc) today because I kept checking the forums as a non-member (i got pissy and irresponsible with a thread i started and had to bring myself back in check). I'm also not a member of any other forums, but do check them out from time to time.

just a regular ol member, nothing of a backround in black/psy ops/whistleblowing, etc. just a dude that thinks these ideas are neat, and (admittedly) a bit jaded with no proof being shown (with none of my own - mind you), and a bit worried because, as my OP notes, I think some of this is unhealthy for the psyche.

and to be clear, I was not removed by anyone, i removed myself for a bit. the energy and feeling behind my posts will remain, I promise!!

i think these talks are important!

[peace]

i think that is a very fair point. i did not mean to write it as "all" were paranoid. my apologies. I learned the same lesson (at an early age) and agree.

just got worried when I saw people giving medical advice - I think that's what really, really worried me.

very good point though. i will check my posts for such "generalisms" in the future.

sorry directed at andrews post above.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I
want to join your club! http://projectavalon.net/images/smilies/new/smile.gif 'Peace', 'Sean', 'Borden' and all who are not subscribing to the delusions and misperceptions created by whoever for whatever.

Apparently the "club" has been reduced by yet another member, because I see Peace is gone, too.
Quite a few members, not all of them necessarily popular (but I, for one, liked the energy of their input), have left or were dismissed in the past few days or weeks.
Why?
That's the question.

i needed to pull myself back in - the passion and energy will remain. completely self-imposed.

[rabbit]

I just wanted to say I'm glad to read this thread. I'm a new member and only beginning to unfold the web of lies that this world is hidden behind.
Last night I actually thought I was having some kind of paranoid breakdown. So thank you, for at least letting me know that it's not just me.

[Carmody]

I just wanted to say I'm glad to read this thread. I'm a new member and only beginning to unfold the web of lies that this world is hidden behind.
Last night I actually thought I was having some kind of paranoid breakdown. So thank you, for at least letting me know that it's not just me.

Yeah cain't fixes it.... until it's broked.

Paranoia and breakdown are part of the process. Tear down the old, make way for the new. They tend to happen concurrently (at the same time) as the ego struggles and throws it's paranoid projections into the mix.

Freudian psychology, modern mental health as pushed by western governments and western religion...all want you to believe that the ego is necessary and needs be intact exactly as it is. Thus psychotherapy, drugs, ostracization, labeling, external help to maintain all, etc.

Jungian psychology and what we call eastern mysticism, esoteric thinking, etc...the ONLY thing that has managed to describe any of this, so far...occult/esoteric sociological and mental subtexts are all about (and understand) what I said -as being the real paradigm.

[peace]

i think wicock is a great story teller. nothing more.
read: i think he's full of "it" and himself.
if it is true, i really hope, as was noted when ms. cassidy's interview ended, that he is safe. truly, i do.
but i really think he was never in danger to begin with.

[haibane]

I've noticed that quite a few members have moved to another forum and I'm not sure I understand why.
That kind of a thing seems to happen on kind of a regular basis - I consider it to be something along the lines of the solar cycle now ^__~

[Carmody]

i think wicock is a great story teller. nothing more.
read: i think he's full of "it" and himself.
if it is true, i really hope, as was noted when ms. cassidy's interview ended, that he is safe. truly, i do.
but i really think he was never in danger to begin with.

If he was in real danger or not, the point is that it was probably designed to push him in some direction. if these folks want you dead, it happens fast, with little to no evidence of anything but a normal death of some sort.

Breitebart was a little too public for them, but he stepped into the line of fire and found out what it was like to threaten with teeth (his teeth came from him doing similar earlier, ie his bark has bite). He found out that return shots happen pretty fast if need be.

Basically he announced this Obama video, and he was dead a few weeks later. It takes a bit of time to crack someone's life open when observation is the situation, so a few weeks passing is about normal, for him having been put under direct observation (for the purposes of finding the method and way that was most effective), and then the resultant death.

Breitbart could have also been killed by his own connections, to make his death be a bigger splash.

Many things are possible when morals and ethics are left by the door - manipulating humans then becomes child's play.

[Cilka]

When i lived in Ireland i made friends with a Russian guy called Dimitri.
As an inquisitive soul i used to ask him about his homeland.
And inevitably i asked about the communist regime.
I asked him "what was it like, are you glad it ended"
I thought i knew about the "reds" regime, the oppression, the slavery, no freedom of thought etc etc.
But what Dimitri told me shocked me.
he said "when it was communist we knew what we was in for, there where not many lies, but with capitalism money is a means to hide secrets and bribe even your family at times"
He told me how there was freedom, and how it was not as extreme as the west made it, that no one wanted for more than they needed.
People worked, for a greater good.
I tried to argue a point against communism, but eventually i realized that i was trying to prove my point on something i knew nothing about.
I decided to agree to disagree, but he said one final thing along the lines of.
I have lived under both and i can tell you I'm more unhappy now that i have to worry about trivial things.

The point is this, we cannot judge other peoples opinions and beliefs because they are ultimately based upon our own.
Lies will always be lies it does not matter weather they are harmless or harmfully.
We HAVE to be vigilant, otherwise this will go too far and we will loose to many good people who really want the truth.

I have to agree with Dimitri. I lived in Czechoslovakia when it was still communist. I personally do not believe in any political systems (I don't vote any more), but if I HAD to choose one political system under which I would have to live, I have to say that I would choose communism in former Czechoslovakia. Life was truly good back then, now the country (both Czech Republic and Slovakia) is just as corrupt as North America. Money is beautiful, but people made it into this huge senseless monster that is destroying human lives and our environement (this planet). There is nothing wrong with money, but there is definitely something wrong with humans possessing money. They found many ways to use money as a dangerous weapon. Naomi Klein described the wave of capitalism extremely well as it sweeps through self efficient nations and how this wave forces the nations to fall on its knees (the name of the book is 'The Shock Doctrine).

It is sad that people will create any evil out everything that they touch, even if that something starts out to be pure, simple and harmless.

[RunningDeer]

Hello peace,
Part of my take away from your post is that people are programing themselves into needless fear. If so, I'd agree where I am concerned. I find that I've had to increase my awareness on negative and fear programing rattling around in the head. Delete, delete, cancel cancel... I am my own worst enemy; which is the good news because the solutions reside within.

One way is balancing out both sides by taking actions steps where ever I can. Of late, I'm finding that more often it's been spontaneous action. It's like the use it or loose it - the creative solutions present because of the willingness to run with the spontaneous action. It's extremely energizing, too.

Bottom line for me, it's about standing in my own power. That sweet-spot within. Secrets are revealed. Though, I should stick a post-it note to the peanut butter jar as a back-up reminder.

Thanks for this thread.

[Cilka]

i think wicock is a great story teller. nothing more.
read: i think he's full of "it" and himself.
if it is true, i really hope, as was noted when ms. cassidy's interview ended, that he is safe. truly, i do.
but i really think he was never in danger to begin with.

I know that nobody cares what I think about this but I will say it anyway. I think that these individuals who communicate with ET's are a little unstable in their minds to begin with. I don't think they realize that there is certain danger involved when you do start communicating with entities who are not human, have no clue what it is to be human, other than them realizing that it is extremely easy to manipulate humans because of our entrapment in 3D reality and our own stupidity.

Life on planet Earth has not been fun for thousands of years. Humans by nature are very violent, vindictive, cruel, psychotic and simply stupid. I have no clue what really happened to humans when they decided to create extreme divisions among themselves, and as a result of that decided to kill one another the worst ways possible. I mean, where does that creativity in killing comes from? So, I am not surprised that ET's find us fascinating and easy to manipulate those who are seeking for a better and more peaceful life on planet Earth. For this manipulation of vulnerable humans I would give a good kick as s to these ET's. I think that they made things worse by interfering into our already destructive ways of human life here.

I think that people such as David Wilcock mean well. They are good natured souls who are seeking to help humanity in a good way. It is easy to understand David why he would be willing to sacrifice his own soul. We all had enough of the bull and we truly are in need of something more meaningful and beautiful in our lives. And that is the reason why ET's would target people such as David, so that they can give these individuals hope in their personal lives, they also make them more knowledgable about certain issues that they are presenting to the ones willing to listen to a different version of our reality, and they also give these individuals rewards such as money, knowledge, connections to important people, power etc.

There is no fun in being abducted by alien species, and if someone tried to abduct me I would definitely try everything possible to make them stop. And yes, anyone can make them stop. There is free will and ET's cannot interfere in free will. George Kavassilas stated that there is no longer free will on planet Earth. Well, I have to disagree with that and his ET friends. Once you start believing that there is no free will then you are inviting attacks from these entities who have nothing else to do but to play with our vulnerable human minds. In additon, these ET communicators don't seem to mind that they are being poked into by these entities. What is wrong with this picture? Don't they respect their souls and bodies? Nobody has the right to take control of my soul or body, unless I give them permission.

I think that David is not in any danger, it is just a fabrication of his own fantasy. I think that a lot of the ET communicators will give out warnings that they are being attacked. I also think that the ET's are losing their power somehow and it is freaking them out. The whole system that is based on manipulation, either by governments/banking systems/and even ET's interference, will start crumbling down slowly but surely.

People, start trusting your higher selves. We all want something great to happen on this planet, but it definitely won't happen with the help of ET's. ET's have to start respecting human evolution and need to stay away because they are making things worse. There are 7 billion of us, we don't need ET's telling us what to do and how to do it. If they really wanted to help they wouldn't have introduced weapons of mass destruction to our mentally sick governments, and they would already have done something so that our sick governments would not have the power to take control of this whole planet or to kill us all. The ET's have had plenty of time to help us, only if they truly wanted to. All they are doing is telling us, in an enlightened way, that in order to ascend to a higher dimension 4D or 5D, we need to get out of this planet because it wont be safe here anymore. Hmm........I don't think so.

[DeDukshyn]

Wait for proof? Bah! Anything can be "proven" via statistic and manipulated perspective.


"Medicine is bad..."
I'll re-interpret to mean "Drugs are bad", because I don't think anyone said "all medicine is bad?" do you? and, isn't this what the real problem is? Generalizations? - after all, it appears you are upset with people for speaking in generalized terms, and you generalize you criticism of that ... It is a rampant issue of the human condition and not exclusive to a select few.

Have you checked the truth behind any of these claims? Such as "Drugs are bad?". Did you know that drugs and healthcare administrated by the medical systems in the USA are responsible for more deaths than driving fatalities? Did you know that number is a quarter million Americans each year in the USA alone? Feel free to prove me wrong. Perhpas you did not here the TED talk that Bill Gates gave, where he implicitly implied that we could solve the overpopulation issue with "New Vaccines and Health Systems" -- in other words more "medicines" to "kill us" with. Feel free to find that on YouTube - the topic was under the guise of "Combating Climate Change".



the gov't monitors everything
Do you know the difference in level of monitoring of it's own people in the USA since before 9/11? after? Did you know US congress (IIRC), approved tens of thousands of unmanned drones to monitor Americans?

While there may be generalizations going on by all parties, (as I so clearly pointed out), on all topics, as is a natural part of the human condition, all you have to do is be aware of what is happening around you to see it. While waiting for "proof", what is going to happen to us? I'll tell you ... "New Vaccines and Health Care to reduce the human population by more than 15%", "10,000 military drones monitoring it's own people." .. that's what. Proof doesn't cut it anymore - it's too easily manipulated and "relying on proof" takes the power of Choice from the individual and puts it in the controller of the "proofs" ... the opposite of what is needed.

[One]

I try to stop by this forum at least monthly; sometimes I do, sometimes a few months go by.

I joined, after just watching quitely as a non-member, and a few months BEFORE the atticus/charles hoopla. I considered this place a neat forum to come to and explore. Explore my mind, challenge my thoughts/beliefs, etc.

In my time here I've seen this place be pretty great and pretty god-awful.

But I worry.

I worry about patrons here and the level of paranoia displayed. Without a shred of proof given, bold claims are accepted as fact and not challenged (eg. Bruisch, Wilcock, Collier, Dr. Greer, Icke, etc., etc.). If challenged, the person who challenges is told they are brainwashed by the powers that be and "conditioned," etc.

I'm talking of things such as "doctors don't know what they are talking about," (all medicine is bad) "the gov't monitors everything," (everything????) "the education system is useless," "everything NASA does is a lie," etc. etc. There are too many to site, I'm giving examples and you understand my meaning.

I worry because, again, there hasn't been a stitch of real proof - at all. Just "trust me," and "you'll see," Sometimes, no proof is given at all; just the word of the source.

I worry because I see some of the patrons talking on here and spouting advice or giving information as if it was cold, hard proof of a way to live or a way to think, because "this is how it really is." Prove it.

Its smells to me and I worry people are living in paranoid states that are drastically imbalanced from rational thought. And I say this with a clinical background, (with some degree I'm sure doesn't mean much to some avalonians - doesn't mean much to my bank account either).

There is perfectly normal paranoia we all experience, "Is that person talking about me behind my back?", "Did I leave the door unlocked?" that we have and dismiss throughout the day. But some of this stuff, "The illuminati wants us all dead," seems like a lot. If you are going to say something like that, you should be able to back it up with something tangible, otherwise I think you are doing more harm than good.

Seems that if you don't back it up, you can really hurt the psyche of someone that can't take it. (which can be argued if some of these claims are backed up the psyche is damaged worse!!)

I mean this with respect. Please don't think I'm bashing anyone. It's just something I've watched in my short time here.

I humbly ask for thoughts/opinions.Is it all BS?

If there is something big to be hidden, it makes sense to dilute any leaks with dissinformation and lies. Such tactics will naturally breed excessive paranoia and erroneous conclusions.

So I would say that the level of paranoia is perfectly normal. We are all fumbling around in the dark and tripping up. Better that than sleeping though I think.

[DeDukshyn]

There was an American president of past that once said .. "The greatest and best conspiracy of all time is one so unbelievable, that no one would ever believe it." (perhaps very slightly paraphrased - my memory is crappy) ... and this is how we are controlled, by not being able to believe the truth ... not, by believing the "wrong" presented truth.

[songsfortheotherkind]

eg, I've seen 'UFO" type things and I saw, back in 2001 or so a 'shooting star', one could say. That was a neat one. When it takes the form of being a reddish/violet 'shooting star', with a tail, that runs across the sky. Not that unusual..but....

Problem.

There were TWO of them, and they spiraled around each other. (at a fair distance apart) Nice....'shooting star', there.

reading a bit deeper in to this thread the problem is that many of us go forward looking for change in the world, digging everywhere to find it, but few realize that the shift of perceptive required comes from the inside. And the person is looking for answers.

And that the system of incarnation is designed to keep the body safe.

That the system of incarnation has an auto-driver/autopilot feature that deals with the entire edifice, including in and out information flow.

That the search for perspective in difficult situations does indeed ring the alarm bells of the 'edifice control and safety 'life retention' system'. To clarify, the part of the body's function that causes your arm to recoil from a burn, or shock of pain, that same system is MUCH more complex and involved than one considers. It ALSO shapes and filters all incoming and outgoing data flow into the mind.... and ALSO deals with base emotional considerations of said flow.
It is also designed to self protect....so that only a truly seasoned inner explorer will find the methods and ways of shutting that system down in it's levels of 'existence influence'.

People go "yeah, yeah, yeah Carmody, we know what you are talking about, that's not the point.'

And I say 'no', I move you over to a chair, look you in the eye..and say to you that.. 'no you don't, you miss the core issue'. The new perspective is inside, the blocks and lock on the doorways inside are the place where the new perspective you seek - is.

Perception and knowledge has two faces or components, one might say. One is the data and the other is the capacity to perceive. Like an athlete who shifts the life around to accommodate the body's need to be different to complete the tasks at very high achievement levels, if one desires complex and 'heightened knowledge', then one must address the root systems of human capacity. This is obvious, in retrospect.

Ask the self why this needs to be stated and not just perceived and be given lip service to..but to be taken on as a reality of changing inner function. Ask why this is noted ---but not done. (oh look, there's another external thing to chase!)


The body's ego function, in control of all data flow and the emotional control of all formation of thought function and shaping..that edifice or inner program steers you away from the next step of looking inside to shift knowledge and perspective to new levels. Basically the ego will tell you anything you want to hear and it will also start to go crazy with paranoia and projections in outlandish manners and ways....as you approach it. Anything that can be used to push you away from looking at it. (like and angry. fearful, scared and incredibly imaginative 5 year old driving a car, sort of... but really...a body and it's input-output systems)

To the point that you might have an emotional rise bout this post, one in the negative. That's how insidious it is. The inner and outer state tend to reflect one another, so the searcher on the outside world is also an inner searcher, one trying to fix the self but the ego makes you go on walkabouts all over the world. In any kind of way. Anything but to look inside.

The least expensive AND MOST EFFECTIVE way to help this planet is something that everyone can do at any time. Which is to look inside and change that data flow and connection system so that new perspective can be found.

If one seeks that 'fearlessness of knowing', in order to move forward ...well..ultimately...it will never be found externally, but it can always be found inside. If it is always done externally, then the systems erected will ultimately fail. (only 50% of the job would be completed-not even 50% actually, as you can't achieve a minimum balance in systems that are not even 50% addressed)

To do it from the inside first as a perspective and functional change, this heads toward a state of favorable permanent change in level for the self... AND humanity.

Paranoia sometimes is a sign that one is trying to understand complex issues and approaching the inner self issues. To paraphrase, it isn't paranoia.... when your ego is out to control you.

As the outer-world slips into conflict an offshoot of that - is paranoia via questioning the world and the self.

The ego projects sureties from those wild swings of contemplation (with little data available), it projects them out into the world, trying to gain reflection back that agrees with that projection..and we find ourselves casting things about, in order to try and make sense...so the ego can feel safe and the body can feel comfortable.

It is not just the complex external matters...(which are complex only due to the inner world not being capable of perceiving ---yet) it is the physiology of the psychology of the design and operation of the being that is perceiving. This is key..... to this current world situation.

Free your mind... and you ass will follow.

How many of us have heard that line.... but have no idea how deep it goes?

Oh, I was beginning to think there was no actual place for me in this thread until I saw this post- I so resonate with the energy, intention and experience within your expression! *joyous hand waving* Thank you for this, I am having an energetic gleespasm right now. *laughing*

[DeDukshyn]

.....

Free your mind... and you ass will follow.

How many of us have heard that line.... but have no idea how deep it goes?

Oh, I was beginning to think there was no actual place for me in this thread until I saw this post- I so resonate with the energy, intention and experience within your expression! *joyous hand waving* Thank you for this, I am having an energetic gleespasm right now. *laughing*

Carmody is good ****, and always has the patience to say the things needed to be said while I'm saying: "Awww ... screw it! Their loss!" to. ;) Thanks Carmody ... again ;)

[NeverMind]

Oh, I was beginning to think there was no actual place for me in this thread until I saw this post- I so resonate with the energy, intention and experience within your expression! *joyous hand waving* Thank you for this, I am having an energetic gleespasm right now. *laughing*

Wait... Why would there not be a place for you, in this or any other thread?
A thread - a good one - is an invitation to discussion; and isn't the whole point of discussion... well, discussion?
And in my experience the best discussion is among people who do not necessarily "resonate" with each others' opinions. :)

[DeDukshyn]

Oh, I was beginning to think there was no actual place for me in this thread until I saw this post- I so resonate with the energy, intention and experience within your expression! *joyous hand waving* Thank you for this, I am having an energetic gleespasm right now. *laughing*

Wait... Why would there not be a place for you, in this or any other thread?
A thread - a good one - is an invitation to discussion; and isn't the whole point of discussion... well, discussion?
And in my experience the best discussion is among people who do not necessarily "resonate" with each others' opinions. :)

"another set of eyes" is very often extremely valuable ... ;)

[NeverMind]

"another set of eyes" is very often extremely valuable ... ;)


Well, it is a time-honoured remedy against myopia, that's for sure.

:-)

[NeverMind]

There was an American president of past that once said .. "The greatest and best conspiracy of all time is one so unbelievable, that no one would ever believe it." (perhaps very slightly paraphrased - my memory is crappy) ... and this is how we are controlled, by not being able to believe the truth ... not, believing the "wrong" presented truth.

How did I miss this?

Who said that, and what do you think he was referring to?
(Please don't refer me to a search machine, I'd rather hear it from you. :))


P.S. Oh, I see I misread the quote... Let it be stated that I have severe astigmatism.
And it shows. :)

Ignore the question above.

[DeDukshyn]

There was an American president of past that once said .. "The greatest and best conspiracy of all time is one so unbelievable, that no one would ever believe it." (perhaps very slightly paraphrased - my memory is crappy) ... and this is how we are controlled, by not being able to believe the truth ... not, believing the "wrong" presented truth.

How did I miss this?

Who said that, and what do you think he was referring to?
(Please don't refer me to a search machine, I'd rather hear it from you. :))


P.S. Oh, I see I misread the quote... Let it be stated that I have severe astigmatism.
And it shows. :)

Ignore the question above.


Wow .. I worded that extremely confusingly ... But now when I tried to correct it .. it is actually right ... major confusing -- I hate english ;)

EDIT: Aha! I found the issue and fixed it by adding a "by" ;) .... lol

[RunningDeer]

...Let it be stated that I have a severe astigmatism.
Dooley noted. ;)

[NeverMind]

Wow .. I worded that extremely confusingly ... But now when I tried to correct it .. it is actually right ... major confusing -- I hate english ;)


No, it's not confusing AT ALL - it's just that I (being without my contacts) failed to notice a tiny little word: one.


The greatest and best conspiracy of all time is one so unbelievable

See the difference that makes?
I love English. :p

[songsfortheotherkind]

Oh, I was beginning to think there was no actual place for me in this thread until I saw this post- I so resonate with the energy, intention and experience within your expression! *joyous hand waving* Thank you for this, I am having an energetic gleespasm right now. *laughing*

Wait... Why would there not be a place for you, in this or any other thread?
A thread - a good one - is an invitation to discussion; and isn't the whole point of discussion... well, discussion?
And in my experience the best discussion is among people who do not necessarily "resonate" with each others' opinions. :)

I was observing the parameters of the main body of messages from the beginning of the thread. I'm not really one to go into spaces where my experience and way of Being can be construed as inferior to the 'rational' or other perspectives being held up by the poster/s. I am aware of the use of such words as 'truth', 'lies', 'perpetrators', and a heap of others that I can't recall without jumping back and forth through the thread- suffice to say that I stood on the threshold observing and thought 'mmm, I think my fluidity and Otherness isn't going to be welcome here' and so I was staying silent- until I saw the post. :D

I know I'm not everyone's cup of tea- who is? As if that's even possible! So I don't mind staying out of places where those who resonate with one another have gathered, I respect that- I've watched the reactions of mainstream nightclubbers that accidentally stumbled into the Goth club, lol. I don't have a problem with spaces created to explore certain specific ideas and the knowing that in that moment the individuals are wanting to explore *just* those things- if I'm in exploring a tantric space I don't want to be discussing the validity of such exploration, I want to engage in the exploration itself. Discussing the validity of such explorations is better done in another moment. :) So mmm. It's just how I see things.

[songsfortheotherkind]

"another set of eyes" is very often extremely valuable ... ;)

Yes, yes, absolutely! What I've discovered since early childhood is that I'm able to do this naturally and actually physically experience different sets of 'eyes' that I can use in various parts of my body and use this in different ways (for instance, when I'm 'looking' at someone's energetic signal I don't actually look at them, I look off past them and use another set of 'eyes' in the front of my chest to read the signal), as well as being able to switch rapidly between perspectives, understandings, experiences, different Selves, realities and a whole bunch of other things that, at least in the physical realm, can often drive other individuals berserk. *laughing*

It's another aspect of why I'm respectful of where I tread. :D

[Sidney]

i think wicock is a great story teller. nothing more.
read: i think he's full of "it" and himself.
if it is true, i really hope, as was noted when ms. cassidy's interview ended, that he is safe. truly, i do.
but i really think he was never in danger to begin with.

I know that nobody cares what I think about this but I will say it anyway. I think that these individuals who communicate with ET's are a little unstable in their minds to begin with. I don't think they realize that there is certain danger involved when you do start communicating with entities who are not human, have no clue what it is to be human, other than them realizing that it is extremely easy to manipulate humans because of our entrapment in 3D reality and our own stupidity.

Life on planet Earth has not been fun for thousands of years. Humans by nature are very violent, vindictive, cruel, psychotic and simply stupid. I have no clue what really happened to humans when they decided to create extreme divisions among themselves, and as a result of that decided to kill one another the worst ways possible. I mean, where does that creativity in killing comes from? So, I am not surprised that ET's find us fascinating and easy to manipulate those who are seeking for a better and more peaceful life on planet Earth. For this manipulation of vulnerable humans I would give a good kick as s to these ET's. I think that they made things worse by interfering into our already destructive ways of human life here.

I think that people such as David Wilcock mean well. They are good natured souls who are seeking to help humanity in a good way. It is easy to understand David why he would be willing to sacrifice his own soul. We all had enough of the bull and we truly are in need of something more meaningful and beautiful in our lives. And that is the reason why ET's would target people such as David, so that they can give these individuals hope in their personal lives, they also make them more knowledgable about certain issues that they are presenting to the ones willing to listen to a different version of our reality, and they also give these individuals rewards such as money, knowledge, connections to important people, power etc.

There is no fun in being abducted by alien species, and if someone tried to abduct me I would definitely try everything possible to make them stop. And yes, anyone can make them stop. There is free will and ET's cannot interfere in free will. George Kavassilas stated that there is no longer free will on planet Earth. Well, I have to disagree with that and his ET friends. Once you start believing that there is no free will then you are inviting attacks from these entities who have nothing else to do but to play with our vulnerable human minds. In additon, these ET communicators don't seem to mind that they are being poked into by these entities. What is wrong with this picture? Don't they respect their souls and bodies? Nobody has the right to take control of my soul or body, unless I give them permission.

I think that David is not in any danger, it is just a fabrication of his own fantasy. I think that a lot of the ET communicators will give out warnings that they are being attacked. I also think that the ET's are losing their power somehow and it is freaking them out. The whole system that is based on manipulation, either by governments/banking systems/and even ET's interference, will start crumbling down slowly but surely.

People, start trusting your higher selves. We all want something great to happen on this planet, but it definitely won't happen with the help of ET's. ET's have to start respecting human evolution and need to stay away because they are making things worse. There are 7 billion of us, we don't need ET's telling us what to do and how to do it. If they really wanted to help they wouldn't have introduced weapons of mass destruction to our mentally sick governments, and they would already have done something so that our sick governments would not have the power to take control of this whole planet or to kill us all. The ET's have had plenty of time to help us, only if they truly wanted to. All they are doing is telling us, in an enlightened way, that in order to ascend to a higher dimension 4D or 5D, we need to get out of this planet because it wont be safe here anymore. Hmm........I don't think so.

Quote " Humans by nature are very violent, vindictive, cruel, psychotic and simply stupid."


And we are unstable for communicating with Non-humans WHY???? LMAO (yes, I am one of those "unstable people")

[The Lawnman]

Wait for proof? Bah! Anything can be "proven" via statistic and manipulated perspective.


"Medicine is bad..."
I'll re-interpret to mean "Drugs are bad", because I don't think anyone said "all medicine is bad?" do you? and, isn't this what the real problem is? Generalizations? - after all, it appears you are upset with people for speaking in generalized terms, and you generalize you criticism of that ... It is a rampant issue of the human condition and not exclusive to a select few.

Have you checked the truth behind any of these claims? Such as "Drugs are bad?". Did you know that drugs and healthcare administrated by the medical systems in the USA are responsible for more deaths than driving fatalities? Did you know that number is a quarter million Americans each year in the USA alone? Feel free to prove me wrong. Perhpas you did not here the TED talk that Bill Gates gave, where he implicitly implied that we could solve the overpopulation issue with "New Vaccines and Health Systems" -- in other words more "medicines" to "kill us" with. Feel free to find that on YouTube - the topic was under the guise of "Combating Climate Change".



the gov't monitors everything
Do you know the difference in level of monitoring of it's own people in the USA since before 9/11? after? Did you know US congress (IIRC), approved tens of thousands of unmanned drones to monitor Americans?

While there may be generalizations going on by all parties, (as I so clearly pointed out), on all topics, as is a natural part of the human condition, all you have to do is be aware of what is happening around you to see it. While waiting for "proof", what is going to happen to us? I'll tell you ... "New Vaccines and Health Care to reduce the human population by more than 15%", "10,000 military drones monitoring it's own people." .. that's what. Proof doesn't cut it anymore - it's too easily manipulated and "relying on proof" takes the power of Choice from the individual and puts it in the controller of the "proofs" ... the opposite of what is needed.

Not to mention the intentional systemic pollution of the public water system with known neron-toxins, chlorine and fluoride, etc.; the systemic pollution of the food supply with genetically modified foods, Codex Alimentarius., etc.; and the systemic pollution of our air supply with the spraying of "Only God Knows What" chemicals into the atmosphere. Do we really need more "scientific proof"? What we need is for more individuals to wake up and pay attention to their surroundings, to be willing to be honest with themselves and admit there is a problem.

[Carmody]

There was an American president of past that once said .. "The greatest and best conspiracy of all time is one so unbelievable, that no one would ever believe it." (perhaps very slightly paraphrased - my memory is crappy) ... and this is how we are controlled, by not being able to believe the truth ... not, believing the "wrong" presented truth.

How did I miss this?

Who said that, and what do you think he was referring to?
(Please don't refer me to a search machine, I'd rather hear it from you. :))


P.S. Oh, I see I misread the quote... Let it be stated that I have severe astigmatism.
And it shows. :)

Ignore the question above.


Wow .. I worded that extremely confusingly ... But now when I tried to correct it .. it is actually right ... major confusing -- I hate english ;)

EDIT: Aha! I found the issue and fixed it by adding a "by" ;) .... lol


Was it Woodrow Wilson in his autobiography? I think it is from that time period, at the least, which would have been the UN and Fed Reserve creation period of US history.

[DeDukshyn]

There was an American president of past that once said .. "The greatest and best conspiracy of all time is one so unbelievable, that no one would ever believe it." (perhaps very slightly paraphrased - my memory is crappy) ... and this is how we are controlled, by not being able to believe the truth ... not, believing the "wrong" presented truth.

How did I miss this?


Who said that, and what do you think he was referring to?
(Please don't refer me to a search machine, I'd rather hear it from you. :))


P.S. Oh, I see I misread the quote... Let it be stated that I have severe astigmatism.
And it shows. :)

Ignore the question above.


Wow .. I worded that extremely confusingly ... But now when I tried to correct it .. it is actually right ... major confusing -- I hate english ;)

EDIT: Aha! I found the issue and fixed it by adding a "by" ;) .... lol


Was it Woodrow Wilson in his autobiography? I think it is from that time period, at the least, which would have been the UN and Fed Reserve creation period of US history.


Unfortunately I always forget the details ... (my memory is crap and I remember things via computed logic reconstruction - really bad for dates and such). You may be correct on Wilson -- definitely the right time-frame ... It was in reference to the extreme systems of control of the super elite, and the truth they hide, but I think even a larger system was being indicated, for those in the know. I'll try dig up a proper reference.

[TraineeHuman]

What I would really like to see is a list of what, say, at least 50% of the worst things the doom-and-gloomers (the majority of vocal Forum members?) claim will happen in the next 3 months, 6 months, 12 months. I expect the 3 month list would certainly include WWIII. The 12 month one would probably include martial law in the USA, and so on. Let’s get real and use this thread or some other to document some of these beliefs specifically. Then let’s review them in 3 months, 6 months, 12 months.

While we’re at it, let’s make some lists of what such people were predicting would surely happen within 12 months 4 years ago, 3 years ago, 2 years ago, 1 year ago. Then let’s compare that with reality. As, for example, Bill Ryan has indicated, virtually all such major gloom events never happened in the timeframe predicted, or “they haven’t happened yet”. The percentage that haven’t happened – even after 4 years -- might be 98% or somewhere around there, as far as I can work out. I guess the GFC and the European crisis and increased volcanic and earthquake activity did happen, as have the draconian laws and regulations and security measures, particularly in the US, and Codex Alimentarius. Anything else, that’s truly major?

Unfortunately, the emphasis on the outrageous or horrific or spectacular takes attention away from what may be the biggest issue: the gradual major destruction of the environment, which keeps on rolling out. Chemtrails were already there 4 years ago, but lately we have fracking, and even worse additives in food and GMO food.

[Turcurulin]

I'm talking of things such as "doctors don't know what they are talking about," (all medicine is bad) "the gov't monitors everything," (everything????) "the education system is useless," "everything NASA does is a lie," etc. etc.

:nod: Truer words have never been spoken. Oh, wait...

*EDIT*
To clarify, in my experience, most western doctors don't know what they're talking about ([I]almost all western medicine is bad,) the US gov't monitors everything (yes everything,) the public education system is now totally useless, almost everything NASA does or publicly states is a lie and/or a farce.

If I hadn't come to terms with these realities long ago, I may have never made it to Avalon. With that being said, I agree that some folks have a knack for taking these issues to the level of unhealthy paranoia. :tinfoil3:

[Carmody]

The art of discernment vs innate capacity:

The democratic process relies on the assumption that citizens (the majority of them, at least) can recognize the best political candidate, or best policy idea, when they see it. But a growing body of research has revealed an unfortunate aspect of the human psyche that would seem to disprove this notion, and imply instead that democratic elections produce mediocre leadership and policies.


http://news.yahoo.com/people-arent-smart-enough-democracy-flourish-scientists-185601411.html

[sdv]

Thanks for this very interesting article. Earlier in the week, I was having dinner with myfamily and we had the pleasure of the company of Sue (from South Korea and a friend of my niece) and David, from Switzerland. Apparantly in Switzerland the country is led by a committee of seven (two members each from the two ruling parties and the other three from smaller political parties). For a decision to be valid it is has to have the support of all seven, and for laws to be changed a referendum is then required. (Forgive me if I misunderstood what David was saying and am reporting inaccurately.)

In my country democracy seems to be an excuse for tyranny (majority rules so we can do whatever we want)!

Going back to the original topic of this discussion, I so often find in life that I know less than I think I do. Here's and example: the JFK assasination. I read the book by William Manchester (an awesome achievement) and the facts about what happened that day just do not support most conspiracy theories. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that LHO fired three shots from that window. The context also explains much of what seems inexplicable about that day. All the evidence given to debunk conspiracy theories seem logical and reasonable. And then I saw the movie The Tillman Story. Pat Tillman was shot in the forehead three times, which blew away the back of his head. Suddenly the question occured to me: Of what does this remind me? The damage that fatal bullet did to JFK (times three with Pat). I can no longer deny to myself that the fatal bullet that killed JFK came from the front and was not one of the three that LHO shot (and perhaps none of the three bullets that LHO shot hit anyone at all!).

A forum like this is useful in opening our eyes to information that we may not have considered or may not have found (and apologies that the example I give is one from outside this forum), and if along the way we reveal our fixed views, ignorance and so on then maybe it is ok to do so among friends!
So, a forum like this is useful in leading us to

[Carmody]

This is what we deal with at all times, which Voltaire encapsulates into a single statement, which is: "The best are the enemy of the good."

[peace]

The 'programed fear' mentioned above (and put much better than I could explain it) is what I meant. Thanks for that!

[peace]

Wait for proof? Bah! Anything can be "proven" via statistic and manipulated perspective.


"Medicine is bad..."
I'll re-interpret to mean "Drugs are bad", because I don't think anyone said "all medicine is bad?" do you? and, isn't this what the real problem is? Generalizations? - after all, it appears you are upset with people for speaking in generalized terms, and you generalize you criticism of that ... It is a rampant issue of the human condition and not exclusive to a select few.

Have you checked the truth behind any of these claims? Such as "Drugs are bad?". Did you know that drugs and healthcare administrated by the medical systems in the USA are responsible for more deaths than driving fatalities? Did you know that number is a quarter million Americans each year in the USA alone? Feel free to prove me wrong. Perhpas you did not here the TED talk that Bill Gates gave, where he implicitly implied that we could solve the overpopulation issue with "New Vaccines and Health Systems" -- in other words more "medicines" to "kill us" with. Feel free to find that on YouTube - the topic was under the guise of "Combating Climate Change".



the gov't monitors everything
Do you know the difference in level of monitoring of it's own people in the USA since before 9/11? after? Did you know US congress (IIRC), approved tens of thousands of unmanned drones to monitor Americans?

While there may be generalizations going on by all parties, (as I so clearly pointed out), on all topics, as is a natural part of the human condition, all you have to do is be aware of what is happening around you to see it. While waiting for "proof", what is going to happen to us? I'll tell you ... "New Vaccines and Health Care to reduce the human population by more than 15%", "10,000 military drones monitoring it's own people." .. that's what. Proof doesn't cut it anymore - it's too easily manipulated and "relying on proof" takes the power of Choice from the individual and puts it in the controller of the "proofs" ... the opposite of what is needed.

yup. i have checked these things and more. some of which we can substantiate, and prove. pc and pa have been pivotol in my searching.
and I have come across posts where folks, as is their right, swear off any drug/doctor.
and i have come across posts where folks, as is their right, claim gov't has a chip in their coffee cup, tracking them daily.
... and they are the sole communication point with god.
... and they are the sole communication point with the greys (annunaki, reptillion, various galactic fed's and on and on)
-
i.e. paranoia.

also. (and I mean this) doctor's suck and some of them are bad. some of them do their best to save lives daily
also. medications suck and some are bad. some make pain go away, infections stop spreading (though with the hijacking of our food that could easily be argued), and make life managable.

you get it? i agree there is a lot of crud out there. though i also agree the 'all or nothing' attitude i read by some (not all, i never said all) members is a bit paranoid.

thanks for your awesome comment, though. hope this helps clairify my thoughts.

[DeDukshyn]

Wait for proof? Bah! Anything can be "proven" via statistic and manipulated perspective.


"Medicine is bad..."
I'll re-interpret to mean "Drugs are bad", because I don't think anyone said "all medicine is bad?" do you? and, isn't this what the real problem is? Generalizations? - after all, it appears you are upset with people for speaking in generalized terms, and you generalize you criticism of that ... It is a rampant issue of the human condition and not exclusive to a select few.

Have you checked the truth behind any of these claims? Such as "Drugs are bad?". Did you know that drugs and healthcare administrated by the medical systems in the USA are responsible for more deaths than driving fatalities? Did you know that number is a quarter million Americans each year in the USA alone? Feel free to prove me wrong. Perhpas you did not here the TED talk that Bill Gates gave, where he implicitly implied that we could solve the overpopulation issue with "New Vaccines and Health Systems" -- in other words more "medicines" to "kill us" with. Feel free to find that on YouTube - the topic was under the guise of "Combating Climate Change".



the gov't monitors everything
Do you know the difference in level of monitoring of it's own people in the USA since before 9/11? after? Did you know US congress (IIRC), approved tens of thousands of unmanned drones to monitor Americans?

While there may be generalizations going on by all parties, (as I so clearly pointed out), on all topics, as is a natural part of the human condition, all you have to do is be aware of what is happening around you to see it. While waiting for "proof", what is going to happen to us? I'll tell you ... "New Vaccines and Health Care to reduce the human population by more than 15%", "10,000 military drones monitoring it's own people." .. that's what. Proof doesn't cut it anymore - it's too easily manipulated and "relying on proof" takes the power of Choice from the individual and puts it in the controller of the "proofs" ... the opposite of what is needed.

yup. i have checked these things and more. some of which we can substantiate, and prove. pc and pa have been pivotol in my searching.
and I have come across posts where folks, as is their right, swear off any drug/doctor.
and i have come across posts where folks, as is their right, claim gov't has a chip in their coffee cup, tracking them daily.
... and they are the sole communication point with god.
... and they are the sole communication point with the greys (annunaki, reptillion, various galactic fed's and on and on)
-
i.e. paranoia.

also. (and I mean this) doctor's suck and some of them are bad. some of them do their best to save lives daily
also. medications suck and some are bad. some make pain go away, infections stop spreading (though with the hijacking of our food that could easily be argued), and make life managable.

you get it? i agree there is a lot of crud out there. though i also agree the 'all or nothing' attitude i read by some (not all, i never said all) members is a bit paranoid.

thanks for your awesome comment, though. hope this helps clairify my thoughts.

It does, thanks. Here's mine extrapolated a little further ...

Thinking the Earth went around the sun instead of the Universe revolving around the Earth was once considered blasphemous. I think Ptolemy was nearly lynched for suggesting the earth was not the center of the universe. Did he have Proof? No. But there was "proof" that the universe DID revolve around the earth -- Everyone could look up and see the universe revolving around earth -- blatant proof that no one could deny. The single perspective from earth allowed the general acceptance for that "proof" -- understanding was limited by a lack of knowledge.

Today, understanding is limited by a lack of knowledge, not a lack of the presentation of a "proof". Does humanity have all the knowledge possibly perceivable in the entire Creation? No, so we must accept that our "proofs" and perspectives may be completely different 100 years from now and people could well be saying "Can you believe 100 years ago, people didn't even believe in reptilians? They must have lived like savages." -- I'm not saying they will, but really, anything truly is possible as we learn and grow and come to a greater understanding. Thinking that we know "things" or "facts" or have "proofs" is the only thing that keeps us from realizing the possibilities fully - thus I discourage it. "What you don't know you don't know" is infinitely more vast than both "what you know you know" and "what you know you don't know" combined. Another 2 cents ;)

[peace]

well said. and a great point.

on the proof topic (gulping down humble pie presently ... ).

recently saw my first UFO. i have NOTHING but my word/experience to prove it. it was a few weeks after me screaming from the avalon mountain tops that i was sick and tired of no proof being presented, how i couldn't take the b.s. anymore and anyone that didn't offer proof was wasting my (our) time.

but ... after watching a really big triangle float by me on a highway at dusk, with no visable means of propulsion and after me having nothing to show for it; i changed my tune (well, a little). proof is not easy to come by. my OP was before my sighting. a lot of my responses since have been since as my perspective has changed.

[DeDukshyn]

If I may push conscious manifestation on you a little I'd say you're asking and the Universe is responding - it always does, but to the truth seeker who is willing to accept a little more than the presented "reality", it is often a little easier to see the responses being presented. Usually they pass us by without us being open enough to even notice them. ;-)

Great thread!

[songsfortheotherkind]

The art of discernment vs innate capacity:

The democratic process relies on the assumption that citizens (the majority of them, at least) can recognize the best political candidate, or best policy idea, when they see it. But a growing body of research has revealed an unfortunate aspect of the human psyche that would seem to disprove this notion, and imply instead that democratic elections produce mediocre leadership and policies.
http://news.yahoo.com/people-arent-smart-enough-democracy-flourish-scientists-185601411.html

Thank you so sincerely for this post. I would suggest that the principles herein apply to almost every manifestation that society creates-incompetent people are inherently unable to judge the competence of other people, or the quality of those people's ideas. This has been a source of much pain and frustration in my own life, the sheer numbers of the incompetent in relation to competent in any field and, especially in such areas as politics, the utter hopelessness of the concept that things are going to get better because 'the voters' are going to vote more intelligently.

No, no they are not. Why? Because for the general voter there are just too many areas in which they are incompetent to be able to consider all the factors. I learned this as a child- I could see elements and interconnections that others simply could not, not matter how much I broke it down. I could see the rise of the Idiocracy before I even had a word to describe it (not that the movie made the concept any more palatable, and I can't watch the movie because even a movie about the concept creates too much distress). My brain shut down for while in my early teens because I simply could not see any remedy to the numbers game that was being played- if 51% of the population thought a really really stupid idea was a really good idea, the other 49% just have to wear it. This did not go down well with the kind of Being I am, yet to suggest 'perhaps the intelligently competent individuals would do a better job' was to invite howls of protest, accusations of elitism, snobbery, moral superiority and blah blah blah.

I see it, what is the answer to it? That was my dilemma. Sent me on a journey to discover any possible antidote. Apparently consciousness is far more powerful than previously understood and consciousness is something that I'm really comfortable exploring...

[Carmody]

this extends into our ideas on what 'alien' or 'other' influence/involvement ---may be doing.

It is simply outside of our grasp, for various reasons.

We go paranoid as a reflex action.

which merely underscores our incompetence, in some important ways.

[songsfortheotherkind]

We go paranoid as a reflex action.

which merely underscores our incompetence, in some important ways.

*makes mad scientist cackling sounds, complete with hand movements*

Yes, YES, because paranoia is such an effective TOOL, mwaahahahahaahah!

- not. Which is why it's so vigorously employed in so many arenas! It's why I'm not focusing on things I can do little about in terms of physical- chemtrails? What can I do about it? Do I want to go around putting posters up on poles about it? No. Do I want to engage in irritating and fruitless debates about it in order to 'wake others up'? I'd rather put a fork in my leg, frankly; I'm up for having completely different conversations, about possibilities and pathways. Paranoia doesn't assist this.

It's a welcome space where conversations around 'what beneficial thing can I do for myself/others in the face of/despite this information?' are being had. :)