Bible morality or depravity?

[WyoSeeker]

Murder, rape and slavery sanctioned by god in the bible... (not my god, thank you)

Link here for full list with references (http://www.freethoughtnation.com/contributing-writers/74-barbara-g-walker/649-bible-morality-or-depravity.html)

BIBLE MORALITY (King James Version)

Compiled by Barbara G. Walker, author of Man Made God, et al.
1. KILLING. (As in "Thou shalt not"...???)

The biblical god personally kills a total of 371,186 people, not counting his slaughter of every living thing in Genesis 7. The biblical god also orders the killing of a total of 1,862,265.

Gen 22:2 - God accepts human sacrifices (including that of Jesus, later).
Ex 12:29 - God kills all the firstborn in the land of Egypt.
Ex 15:3 - God is a god of war.
Ex 21:15, 17 - Anyone who strikes or curses a parent must be killed.
Ex 22:18 - Every witch must be killed.
Ex 22:19, 20 - You must kill anyone who "lieth with a beast," or who worships any god other than Yahweh.
Ex 31:15 - Anyone who works on the Sabbath must be killed.
Lev 20:10, 13, 27 - You must kill adulterers, homosexuals, wizards and spirit mediums.
Lev 21:9 - Any priest's daughter who fornicates must be burned alive.
Lev 24:16 - Blasphemers must be killed.
Num 16:27-33 - God caused the whole tribe of Korah -- men, women, and children -- to be buried alive.
Num 21:3 - God caused the destruction of all the Canaanites.
Numbers 31: The slaugher of the MidianitesNum 31:7-35 - God orders Moses to kill the Midianites, making sure to slaughter not only the men but also the boys and females, except for the 32,000 virgin girls.
Deut 3:4 - God is pleased that his warriors destroyed 60 cities.
Deut 7:16 - You must kill all the people God delivers into your hands, and "thine eye shall have no pity upon them."
Deut 13:5 - Any prophet or "dreamer of dreams," who serves another god, must be killed.
Deut 13:6-9 - If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tempts you to worship other gods, "thou shalt surely kill him."
Deut 13:13-15 - If the people of any city worship other gods, you must slaughter them all, including their cattle.
Deut 17:5 - Any man or woman who worships other deities of sun, moon or stars must be stoned to death.
Deut 18:20 - False prophets must be killed.
Deut 20:16-17 - God commands complete destruction of all Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, and "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth."
Deut 22:21 - A bride found not to be a virgin must be stoned to death.
Deut 22:22 - Adulterers must be killed.
Deut 22:23-24 - A girl who is raped within city limits, and fails to cry out, must be killed.
Deut 28:22-28 - If you don't obey God's commandments, he will punish you with consumption, fever, extreme burning, blasting, mildew, hemorrhoids, the scab, the itch, the botch of Egypt, etc., as well as "madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart."
Josh 6:21 - God's warriors destroyed Jericho and killed every man, woman, child, and domestic animal.
Josh 8:25 - God's warriors killed 12,000 people in the city of Ai.
Josh 19:47 - The children of Dan wanted more room, so they destroyed the whole population of Leshen and took their territory.
Judges 1:17-18 - Judah and Simeon utterly destroyed the populations of Zephath, Gaza, Askelon and Ekron.
Judges 11:39 - In accord with God's law, Jephthah was forced to burn his virgin daughter to death as a sacrifice.
[Judges 15:15 - Sampsons slays 1,000 men with the jawbone of an ass] Judges 15:15 - God enables Samson to kill 1,000 men with the jawbone of an ass.
Judges 20:46 - At Gibeah, Benjamin's men killed 25,000 people and burned every town.
1 Sam 6:19 - God kills 50,070 people for trying to peek into the Ark.
1 Sam 15:3 - God commands the destruction of Amalek: "Slay both men and women, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
2 Sam 6:7 - God kills Uzzah for touching the Ark, even though he was trying to save it from falling off its oxcart.
1 Kings 18:40 - God commands the slaughter of "prophets of Baal".
1 Kings 20:36 - Because a man didn't "obey the voice of the Lord," a lion was sent to kill him.
2 Kings 2:24 - God sent bears to tear apart 42 children for making fun of Elisha's bald head.
2 Kings 10:25 - God commands the killing of a multitude in the temple of Baal.
2 Kings 19:35 - God's angel killed 185,000 Assyrians in a single night.
1 Chron 21:14 - God kills 70,000 Israelites with a pestilence.
2 Chron 15:13 - Any man or woman who refuses to "seek the Lord God of Israel" must be killed.
Job 1:15-19 - God arranges the killing of Job's children, servants and animals.
Isa 13:16 - God promises that all the Babylonians' children will be "dashed to pieces before their eyes;" their wives will be raped.
Isa 45:7 - God says "I create evil."
Jer 48:10 - Killing for God is mandatory; God curses anyone who "keepeth back his sword from blood."
Jer 50:21 - God commands that the people of Merathaim and Pekod be "utterly destroyed."
Ezek 9:5-7 - God calls for purging in Jerusalem: "let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children, and women... fill the courts with the slain."
Ezek 35:8 - God promises to fill the mountains, hills, valleys and rivers with slain men.
Hosea 13:16 - God promises to have Samaritan infants dashed to pieces, and pregnant women will have their bellies slashed open.
Nahum 1:2 - God is jealous, full of vengeance and wrath.
Zeph 1:3 - God threatens to destroy everything, man and beast, birds and fishes.
Zeph 1:18 - "The whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy."
Zeph 3:6 - God brags that he has destroyed many nations.
Zech 13:3 - A false prophet must be killed by his father and mother.

2. RAPE

Ex 21:7-8 - A father may sell his daughter to be a "maidservant" (or sex slave) who must "please her master."
Num 31:7, 18 - God orders his warriors to kill every living thing in a captured city, except the virgin girls, who are to be raped and turned into sex slaves.
Deut 21:11-12 - If a warrior likes the look of a female war captive, he can take her to be one of his "wives."
Deut 22:28-29 - A man who rapes a virgin may take her for a wife if he pays her father 50 shekels of silver. (Yet, a bride found not to be a virgin must be stoned to death - Deut 22:20-21).
Judges 5:30 - The spoils of war include "a damsel or two" for every man.
Judges 21:12-23 - God's warriors killed all the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead except for 400 virgin girls, who were taken as slaves. If there are not enough girls to go around, God's warriors may raid neighboring towns for more to rape.

3. SLAVERY

Gen 9:25 - God cursed Ham, son of Noah, with perpetual slavery for the crime of seeing his father naked. (Ham was formerly considered the ancestor of all "blacks.")
Ex 21:4 - A male slave may marry and have children, and may go free after six years; but his family remains the property (or hostages?) of his master.
Ex 21:7 - A man may sell his daughter as a sex slave.
Ex 21:20-21 - A man may be punished for beating a male or female slave
to death, but if the victim survives the beating for a few days, then
there is no penalty.
Lev 19:20 - When a man has sex with a female slave (or "bondmaid"), SHE must be scourged.
Eph 6:5 - Paul says slaves must obey their masters "with fear and trembling."
Titus 2:9 - Paul says slaves must obey and please their masters.
1 Tim 6:1 - Paul says slaves must "count their masters worthy of all honor."

[Fundy Gemini]

I'm assuming your question is rhetorical ;)

[mosquito]

Thanks. I've long wanted a centralised repository of biblical quotes which show yahweh's true nature.

Useful, especially for those in the new-age movement who insist on telling you "the bible is a praarsperity workbook".

[RedeZra]

The biblical god personally kills a total of 371,186 people, not counting his slaughter of every living thing in Genesis 7. The biblical god also orders the killing of a total of 1,862,265.



before the Creator creates

there was nobody

but the Creator


the wise thing to do is figure out why the Creator slays instead of whining about it

[Bongo]

who ever wrote the bible must be having a laugh at all the people believing in it blindly

I mean there is 14 admitted plagiarisms in the bible (who knows how many there actually is) but yet people still see it as a place of truth... lol

[conk]

"But your honor, the Devil, er, ah, God made me do it".

[conk]

The biblical god personally kills a total of 371,186 people, not counting his slaughter of every living thing in Genesis 7. The biblical god also orders the killing of a total of 1,862,265.



before the Creator creates

there was nobody

but the Creator


the wise thing to do is figure out why the Creator slays instead of whining about itYeah, yeah, we're all sinners and made of dirt. We get it. Excuse me while I go off myself. I'm sure God wants me dead. Jeez, I'm so unworthy.

[RedeZra]

the wise thing to do is figure out why the Creator slays instead of whining about it

Yeah, yeah, we're all sinners and made of dirt. We get it. Excuse me while I go off myself. I'm sure God wants me dead. Jeez, I'm so unworthy.

we all die

it is natural and normal


God did not spare Israel when she insisted on breaking His Commands

[Jake]

The biblical god personally kills a total of 371,186 people, not counting his slaughter of every living thing in Genesis 7. The biblical god also orders the killing of a total of 1,862,265.



before the Creator creates

there was nobody

but the Creator


the wise thing to do is figure out why the Creator slays instead of whining about it

Oh,,,, Red,,, I do love your energy.... But... Whoever was passing themselves off as the God of the seed of Abraham, is NOT the creator. Only an imposter. imho, of course.

WyoSeeker listed off some examples of this imposter,, I would not let someone like this in my house, much less pretend that someone like this is the one true God and Creator.


the wise thing to do is figure out why the Creator slays instead of whining about it

The creator exists at the center of a vast field of consciousness, and we are a part of it. It is an amazing story that is still unfolding. Any true God of Love and Peace and creativity will not 'slay' anything. Only a Tyrant deals in these sort of absolutes.

PS,,, Standing up and speaking out against a Tyrant is not Whining... Love you, you know that,,, Jake.

[Borden]

Here are some quotes from the late, great Douglas Adams

The reason why so many sects hang around airports looking for converts: they know that people there are at their most vulnerable and perplexed, and ready to accept any kind of guidance.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul (book two of the Dirk Gently series)

In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move.
-- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
-- Douglas Adams, from Last Chance To See

Borden

[RedeZra]

the wise thing to do is figure out why the Creator slays instead of whining about it

The creator exists at the center of a vast field of consciousness, and we are a part of it. It is an amazing story that is still unfolding. Any true God of Love and Peace and creativity will not 'slay' anything. Only a Tyrant deals in these sort of absolutes.

PS,,, Standing up and speaking out against a Tyrant is not Whining... Love you, you know that,,, Jake.


hi Jake


the Creator put in place some spiritual rules which we are supposed to abide if we want to live long in peace and prosperity

and at death enter the Kingdom of God


if we break the rules then we can repent and receive mercy


insistence on breaking the spiritual rules will in the end incur wrath and death


God has Righteous Rage in His repertoire

[Borden]

the wise thing to do is figure out why the Creator slays instead of whining about it

The creator exists at the center of a vast field of consciousness, and we are a part of it. It is an amazing story that is still unfolding. Any true God of Love and Peace and creativity will not 'slay' anything. Only a Tyrant deals in these sort of absolutes.

PS,,, Standing up and speaking out against a Tyrant is not Whining... Love you, you know that,,, Jake.


hi Jake


the Creator put in place some spiritual rules which we are supposed to abide if we want to live long in peace and prosperity

and at death enter the Kingdom of God


if we break the rules then we can repent and receive mercy


insistence on breaking the spiritual rules will in the end incur wrath and death


God has Righteous Rage in His repertoire

Well in that case it sounds like God also has psychopathy and Narcissism in His repertoire. Who is this God person anyway?

Borden

[Jake]

hi Jake


the Creator put in place some spiritual rules which we are supposed to abide if we want to live long in peace and prosperity

and at death enter the Kingdom of God


if we break the rules then we can repent and receive mercy


insistence on breaking the spiritual rules will in the end incur wrath and death


God has Righteous Rage in His repertoire


I delight that this is NOT true. :) As long as there has been a Belief in a single god, there has been killing in his name. You cannot deny this. You know that a God is false, when it demands to be glorified. Do you really believe that the true God of Gods needs to be glorified???

The true nature of God has much more to do with love and compassion. Not hate, war, death, slavery, anger, jealousy, and a vicious need that you glorify him, or be tortured forever. There is no room in the bible for me! I have seen the truth for myself, and it is contrary to hate, war, death, slavery, anger, jealousy, and a vicious need that you glorify anyone.

[Borden]

Look, RedeZra,

I would never judge you, and while I can't speak for Jake I'm pretty damned sure he wouldn't either.

But what is it with with this idea of a God who puts us in this sand-pit and then tells us what we can and cannot do? That sounds like a petty tyrant to me. If this is the reality of our condition and I am wrong then I will fight with my last breath (physical or astral) to take the fight to this tyrant and deal with Him. I am not kidding.

My philosophy and belief is forgiveness to all, and no-one is out until the last man or woman is out. Even Hitler. We're all in this together. Any 'God' who disagrees can stay out of my way.

Borden.

[greybeard]

You cant have unconditional love and judgment.
All without exception enlightened sages say that God is unconditional love without any attributes.
In fact God does not do anything--- the energy of love just radiates.
Gravity does not do anything as an example.
The true enlightened sage (Godman) can say I am the totality all of it.
When you have it all and are it all, where is the need for praise, adulation, obedience, punishment?

We in our human state need humility, thats true.
It is for our spiritual progress that we pray, worship, endeavor to love our fellow man, love God.
Its for our wellbeing that we surrender to the will of God
God Through Jesus said "Love your enemy as your self."
No judgmental God could possibly express the love that came through Jesus.
Yes there is karma, its self regulating, what you sow you reap.
God is beyond judging.
We try to put human aspects on God--- big mistake in my opinion.
Only the ego separates ---- God is unity.
Unity- One without a second- God does not separate through judgment
God is unconditional love.

Chris

[Borden]

You cant have unconditional love and judgment.
All without exception enlightened sages say that God is unconditional love without any attributes.
In fact God does not do anything--- the energy of love just radiates.
Gravity does not do anything as an example.
The true enlightened sage (Godman) can say I am the totality all of it.
When you have it all and are it all, where is the need for praise, adulation, obedience, punishment?

We in our human state need humility, thats true.
It is for our spiritual progress that we pray, worship, endeavor to love our fellow man, love God.
Its for our wellbeing that we surrender to the will of God
God Through Jesus said "Love your enemy as your self."
No judgmental God could possibly express the love that came through Jesus.
Yes there is karma, its self regulating, what you sow you reap.
God is beyond judging.
We try to put human aspects on God--- big mistake in my opinion.
Only the ego separates ---- God is unity.
Unity- One without a second- God does not separate through judgment
God is unconditional love.

Chris

I want this man as king!

Trouble is ... he wouldn't want the job.

Borden

[RedeZra]

But what is it with with this idea of a God who puts us in this sand-pit and then tells us what we can and cannot do? That sounds like a petty tyrant to me. If this is the reality of our condition and I am wrong then I will fight with my last breath (physical or astral) to take the fight to this tyrant and deal with Him. I am not kidding.



hi Borden


the Creator or the Projector of the Creation or the Projection

makes the rules ; )


it is not tuff rules at all but common sense rules


i don't see God as a tyrant but as a strict Father

who will prune us with the rod if need be

[RedeZra]

You know that a God is false, when it demands to be glorified. Do you really believe that the true God of Gods needs to be glorified???



God do not need our worship

the worship is for our own good


if we don't glorify God

then who will we worship ?


ourselves money power fallen spirits



God I'm Good ; )

[RedeZra]

You cant have unconditional love and judgment.
All without exception enlightened sages say that God is unconditional love without any attributes.


there is Unpersonal Brahman then there is Personal God the Creator or Projector ; )

[eileenrose]

I think these sections of verse (taken from today's version of the book the Bible, as call it is referred to) are meant to scare adversaries.
I mean if you are a little tribe of guys trying to feel big (bigger than your enemies), 2000 plus years ago, you needed propaganda. Otherwise, no one would show up to support you.

sort of obvious (if you put aside religious ideas about what is what).

[Jake]

But what is it with with this idea of a God who puts us in this sand-pit and then tells us what we can and cannot do? That sounds like a petty tyrant to me. If this is the reality of our condition and I am wrong then I will fight with my last breath (physical or astral) to take the fight to this tyrant and deal with Him. I am not kidding.



hi Borden


the Creator or the Projector of the Creation or the Projection

makes the rules ; )


it is not tuff rules at all but common sense rules


i don't see God as a tyrant but as a strict Father

who will prune us with the rod if need be

A strict father does not teach hate, rape, anger, jealousy, bigotry, slavery, murder, etc... You have made a BIG jump. I smile, lovingly, at your turmoil, Red...

If your image of God was real,,, I would be smitten and tortured and murdered for my experiences. Experiences that God made possible...

I HEREBY CHALLENGE THE GOD OF THE BIBLE TO SMITE ME!!! I CHALLENGE THE ABRAMIC GOD TO EVEN LOOK ME IN MY EYE!!! I CHALLENGE THIS FALSE GOD TO SHOW HIMSELF....

Of course your God will hide... You are better than that, Red.

Point to where your god is,,,,

(I cannot point to where God ISN'T!!!)

We have moved beyond the childish belief that God is playing games with our lives...

It is time to 'grow up', with regards our barbaric belief that Gods are ruling over our lives.

It seems that many folks still have some sort of NEED for a God,,, Like a baby needs his blanket. I have no problem with a baby needing a blanket,,, but at some point,, that baby will grow up, and move past its need for false security.

Have you ever seen a 10 or 11 year old that still sucks its thumb and clings to a blanket?? I have,,,, pathetic... We have a real problem here, Red,,,

The God of the Bible is a Tyrant,,, and a real Dick!!!

A loving Father does NOT demand to be glorified!!! Please respond to that... WTF!!!

WORSHIP ME!!! :yell::yell::yell:
GLORIFY ME!!! :yell::yell::yell:

Do you NOT see the flaw???

I will await the day that the God of the Bible comes for me. I doubt that he has the 'kahonas'. He will not be able to approach me,,, I stand in my own light!!!

What does an organization who's motto is "send me your weak, your blind, and your lost" become??? WEAK AND BLIND AND LOST!!!

I admire your blind faith. (I do not walk through life blind.)

I DO believe in God,,, but the God of the Abrahamic tradition is False. Period!!!

Prove to me otherwise...

[kreagle]

I'm afraid there are a lot of folks that will go to great lengths to try to desperately prove "in their own minds" that there's nothing to the genuine account of who God really is and how He operates. To truly believe in Him and to accept Him as recorded in the Holy Scriptures becomes very "problematic" to most, in that it then necessitates the need to recognize oneself as a "sinner" and in need of a Savior.


2 Peter 3:15-17
King James Version (KJV)

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

This is why it is so important to yield to God and to ultimately be "born again", or filled with the Holy Ghost, so that one can begin to "understand and properly decipher" the Words of the Spirit. The "natural man" with his "carnal mind" will never be able to properly understand God's Word and will wind up "wresting the scriptures unto their own destruction". Notice the following scripture in Romans chapter 8 and pay close attention to what is promised to the individual who is "born again" in verses 6 and 9.


Romans 8:5-9
King James Version (KJV)

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit , if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Finally, it should be noted, that the "born again" believer never really "graduates" from this "Heavenly classroom", in that he/she will need to continuously "study the Word."

2 Timothy 2:14-16
King James Version (KJV)

14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

[RedeZra]

A strict father does not teach hate, rape, anger, jealousy, bigotry, slavery, murder, etc... You have made a BIG jump. I smile, lovingly, at your turmoil, Red...


I DO believe in God,,, but the God of the Abrahamic tradition is False. Period!!!

Prove to me otherwise...

the Bible says God incinerated Sodom and Gomorrah just to set an example to the world and future generations who would consider lawlessness a way of life

that is pretty strict

incinerating 5 fortified cities by the Dead Sea

just to make a statement

about the ruin of godlessness


God is tuff

and all the demons tremble

[cellardoor]

Without trying to cause controversy, I'll attempt to give my opinion. Redezra, forgive me, but I see Yahweh as a false dichotomy, created to install unyielding servitude by the masses. The farther "god" or Brahman is just one aspect of a trinity of creation. The universal laws as you say, are not so much a dogma of morality, but a framework for harmony, that were created and initiated by the holy spirit or "Shakti". The personal God as I see, it is I AM, another aspect of the Trinity, when Jesus the morning star said I am the way and the truth and the life, I believe that was not meant as literal but as a way to point us back to ourself. The truth, can only be accessed via our I AM for at our centre we hold the universe. When we allow a priest to dictate to us the natural Laws we are literally giving them our divinity, this creates intellectual apathy, which is quite deliberate on their part. Faith is belief in God, religion is knowledge of God, wisdom is god in action. I feel it is of the utmost importance for people to create for them selves, in the name of Liberty, a personal religion, and for us to respect each others I AM as another aspect of ourselves.

Blessings

[greybeard]

Without trying to cause controversy, I'll attempt to give my opinion. Redezra, forgive me, but I see Yahweh as a false dichotomy, created to install unyielding servitude by the masses. The farther "god" or Brahman is just one aspect of a trinity of creation. The universal laws as you say, are not so much a dogma of morality, but a framework for harmony, that were created and initiated by the holy spirit or "Shakti". The personal God as I see, it is I AM, another aspect of the Trinity, when Jesus the morning star said I am the way and the truth and the life, I believe that was not meant as literal but as a way to point us back to ourself. The truth, can only be accessed via our I AM for at our centre we hold the universe. When we allow a priest to dictate to us the natural Laws we are literally giving them our divinity, this creates intellectual apathy, which is quite deliberate on their part. Faith is belief in God, religion is knowledge of God, wisdom is god in action. I feel it is of the utmost importance for people to create for them selves, in the name of Liberty, a personal religion, and for us to respect each others I AM as another aspect of ourselves.

Blessings

Yes
Jesus in humility pointed out that we could do the same as he.
I believe that he pointed strongly to the "I" within all of us.
When That is realized we are free of ignorance--- illumined - enlightened.
The ultimate goal for a human being, in my understanding is, the subjective knowledge "The Father and I are One"
The kingdom of heaven is within.
So many pointers from Jesus.
The bible could not cover that up it still shines through.
God is infinite limitless and its an insult to our intelligence to try to confine Him to a religion, belief system or concept, though in fairness they do point to the eternal Truth.
Chris

[kcbc2010]

I don't know.....I kind of like that the people in the Bible are just as screwed up as we are!

That said, the God of the OT is a lot more violent than the God of the NT. However, I think that it's interesting that the God of the OT goes out of his way to warn people about what it happen if they are given a human "king". And, it is kind of odd, that Thomas Jefferson decided that he was going to tear out all the books written by Paul (and he's the one who talks a lot about women shutting up in church and slaves obeying their masters...etc).

Admittedly, I'm a Christian and I'm comfortable in that faith tradition; however, I'm less sure of what that really means and what living "a Christian life" is at this point in time.

[WyoSeeker]

if we don't glorify God then who will we worship ? ourselves money power fallen spirits God I'm Good ; )

Why do you feel you need to worship anyone or anything?

I don't understand the idea that the creator of a trillion trillion worlds would give a squat whether you worship her or not. The concept that one book printed by one group of beings at one point in time on one of those trillions of worlds would be the "true word" of that infinite creator with a list of rules you must obey - that's just silly.

There is no god "out there" to worship. There is no such thing as sin. The only judgement you will face is understanding how your choices in life affected those around you.

[777]

if we don't glorify God then who will we worship ? ourselves money power fallen spirits God I'm Good ; )

Why do you feel you need to worship anyone or anything?

I don't understand the idea that the creator of a trillion trillion worlds would give a squat whether you worship her or not. The concept that one book printed by one group of beings at one point in time on one of those trillions of worlds would be the "true word" of that infinite creator with a list of rules you must obey - that's just silly.

There is no god "out there" to worship. There is no such thing as sin. The only judgement you will face is understanding how your choices in life affected those around you.

Amen. Surely all the creator would wish is eventual recognition, with which It could experience itself to know itself better and henceforth grow. Sorry, but in a universe that perpetually devours itself to spawn, I'm (as yet) unable to draw further conculsions (but open to all!)

[RedeZra]

Without trying to cause controversy, I'll attempt to give my opinion. Redezra, forgive me, but I see Yahweh as a false dichotomy, created to install unyielding servitude by the masses.

i agree with all you say Cellardoor except this one

as Yahweh means I AM and so is the Great I AM speaking to his prophets


Yahweh is I AM in Hebrew


the same I AM within you me everybody and everything

Yahweh is just the Hebrew Name of I AM

[RedeZra]

if we don't glorify God then who will we worship ? ourselves money power fallen spirits God I'm Good ; )

Why do you feel you need to worship anyone or anything?

wherever our focus and attention is

there is the objects of our worship

so this is automatic behaviour


God do not need our focus and attention

but we need the focus and attention of God

if we want to grow up spiritually smart and morally strong





There is no such thing as sin. The only judgement you will face is understanding how your choices in life affected those around you.


it is just your personal opinion that there is no such thing as sin and judgement

anyway we reap what we sow

and I AM says Vengeance is Mine

[RedeZra]

The bible could not cover that up it still shines through.


do you think the Bible is trying to cover up something ?

[ktlight]

I feel that the bible tries very hard to cover up its many unnamed authors and editors who shaped it.

[161803398]

I have felt a connection to God since I was a child. Fortunately for me, I didn't go to Church or Sunday school until my belief system was fairly firm in my own mind. I was horrified by the Bible, my Sunday school teacher, all the other Sunday school teachers, the Minister of the Church and his son, the Choir teacher, and all the other kids in the Sunday school. I couldn't bear it. One of the first things I couldn't figure out was where is that place in the Bible that is supposed to be so important to us Canadians...is it in Canada, prey tell? No? Well....things went downhill from there.

[panopticon]

I feel that the bible tries very hard to cover up its many unnamed authors and editors who shaped it.

G'day ktlight,

It's not the Bible that covers it up. In my opinion it was the "Church", from the earliest time, that did this in its fight to gain first authenticity amongst many other religions (at the time of its founding) and later to gain control and power. We are left to try and piece together the shreds of "truth" that are scattered amongst the meagre scraps left for us.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[greybeard]

I think that it is very difficult to see it from the way things were at the time the Bible was written. (context gives meaning and therefore understanding)
It was an entirely different civilization.
Hopefully most of our generation can discuss things without injecting fear into our way of expressing our view of what is "appropriate" action.
Maybe the ten commandments were a way of bringing people to a proper way of interacting with others.
By proper im not inferring that I know what is best for the people of that time or any era.
It might have been that threatening people with certain consequences for their "criminal" actions was the only thing that would work in that society.
The threat of Hell and eternal damnation is one big stick.
Unfortunately the fervor and fundamentalism invoked by the Old Testament ( and some other religious books) was to say the least counter productive, many died as a result of extremism.

I think there was some morality and some depravity in the Bible, the New Testament seems a much more loving and balanced "place" to visit.

Chris

[ktlight]

Panopticon, thanks for your correction. The bible stories have been taken from various other ancient and near ancient texts and purports to be the word of god by those who devised it to be understood to be so. The New Testament root is Judaism. As a child being brought up in Roman Catholicism, we were advised not to read the Old Testament since it had become irrelevant since the birth of the New Testament.

[Arrowwind]

Admittedly, I'm a Christian and I'm comfortable in that faith tradition; however, I'm less sure of what that really means and what living "a Christian life" is at this point in time.

If that is comfortable for you I cant imagine what uncomfortable would be.

[Arrowwind]

More death and mayhem imprisonment and torture has been committed in the name of the bibile than any other work. Not a good track record for the living son of god.
I would think that god would be ashamed of the mess he brought about.

[RedeZra]

Maybe the ten commandments were a way of bringing people to a proper way of interacting with others.


yes the Ten Commandments are for our own welfare

if we all observed them

we would live in peace and prosperity as a big happy family


but we don't inhabit this earth alone

we share it with spirits

where some are up to no good


they want to see humanity in hell

because they themselves fell from Heaven

[RedeZra]

More death and mayhem imprisonment and torture has been committed in the name of the bibile than any other work. Not a good track record for the living son of god.
I would think that god would be ashamed of the mess he brought about.

simply put sin and so sinners would soon turn Heaven into Hell

if their sinful personalities were allowed entrance into Heaven after death

and so it is out of the question


God love us so much that He nailed all the sins of the world to the Cross

so by faith and trust in Jesus

the most vile sinner will be healed

and may enter Heaven


while the lukewarm go to... purgatory perhaps at best

[Jake]

Maybe the ten commandments were a way of bringing people to a proper way of interacting with others.


yes the Ten Commandments are for our own welfare

if we all observed them

we would live in peace and prosperity as a big happy family


but we don't inhabit this earth alone

we share it with spirits

where some are up to no good


they want to see humanity in hell

because they themselves fell from Heaven

What a perfect fantasy. Maybe if the Abrahamic God would lead by example,,, We would be more apt to follow a commandment... However, He does not follow his own rules, therefore, the rules of the house are null and void. Key word VOID!

I do not need to read some set of rules to be a good person, with a good heart.

This world would be a much better place if the Bible had never been written... Sooooo much needles killing in its name... Makes you wonder, don't it??

The Bible was written by man,,, and man is flawed. You CANNOT win this argument. It is a question of FAITH... And faith cannot be found in a book.

I have been turned away and angrily lashed out against by many Christian churches and church leaders, because I experience the OBE... ??? WTF???

You folks definately have another thing coming.

I love God with all of my heart,,, The god in your Bible,,, is NOT him/her...

The kingdom of heaven is within,,,, (not WITHIN a book!!)

I know what I know, and it is contrary to the image of God in the Bible. I only have my little piece of the puzzle, and I offer it to anyone who will listen.

I will never judge anyone who does not experience, and therefore, does not understand what I am talking about. And I do NOT try and force my beliefs onto another.

We are NOT sheep, that need to be led around. We are sovereign. We are beyond kneeling and giving our power to unseen FALSE gods...

And YES, the Bible IS covering something up. the truth!! That we are sovereign souls,,, That we can stand and shine our OWN lights,,, That we DON'T need a GOD to worship... I can admire someone following the teachings of Jesus. But Worship??? tsk tsk tsk...

I had a t-shirt made up with a beautiful painting of Jesus on the front,,, on the back,, it said "QUIT FOLLOWING ME!!!"

The strength of any church lies within the people. Not their god...

PS,,, I love you with all of my heart, Red...

[RedeZra]

What a perfect fantasy. Maybe if the Abrahamic God would lead by example,,, We would be more apt to follow a commandment... However, He does not follow his own rules, therefore, the rules of the house are null and void. Key word VOID!

I do not need to read some set of rules to be a good person, with a good heart.



i do not send souls hither and tither

so you might be fit for Heaven for all i know


i'm just saying Jesus is real and able to heal

and i got some millions of testimonies to back it up


love you too Jake ; )

[cellardoor]

Without trying to cause controversy, I'll attempt to give my opinion. Redezra, forgive me, but I see Yahweh as a false dichotomy, created to install unyielding servitude by the masses.

i agree with all you say Cellardoor except this one

as Yahweh means I AM and so is the Great I AM speaking to his prophets


Yahweh is I AM in Hebrew


the same I AM within you me everybody and everything

Yahweh is just the Hebrew Name of I AM

I'm glad you agree Red but unfortunately the actual translation of Yahweh is AM WHO or AM THAT. And I'm sorry to say that I AM not THAT, vengeful, wrathful, judge of an I AM. Nor will I let any priest tell me other wise. Sorry again for the resistance, I really enjoy your posts, they make me smile.

Thanks RedeZra

Cellardoor

[RedeZra]

And I'm sorry to say that I AM not THAT, vengeful, wrathful, judge of an I AM.

true you are not that wrathful and neither am i

but where were we

when I AM fashioned the earth and then man


I AM the King of this Hill ; )

[cellardoor]

And I'm sorry to say that I AM not THAT, vengeful, wrathful, judge of an I AM.

true you are not that wrathful and neither am i

but where were we

when I AM fashioned the earth and then man


I AM the King of this Hill ; )

Lol Red I AM the king of this hill;)

Lets build a bridge between the two.

Blessings

[cellardoor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY&feature=player_embeddedThought you might like this red:)

[Revere]

cellardoor...Thanks for that uTube post!. It is simply awesome!!!!!It sums up what I have been saying for 30 some years. My cudos to that Rant!!:rockon:


Peace,
-R-

[Jake]

cellardoor...Thanks for that uTube post!. It is simply awesome!!!!!It sums up what I have been saying for 30 some years. My cudos to that Rant!!:rockon:


Peace,
-R-

Yes, excellent rant. Very well put.

[WyoSeeker]

Maybe the ten commandments were a way of bringing people to a proper way of interacting with others.


yes the Ten Commandments are for our own welfare
if we all observed them
we would live in peace and prosperity as a big happy family


So the infinite and eternal creator of more suns than there are grains of sand on Earth, across 81 billion*trillion (give or take) miles of visible space and 13.5 billion years of time, in a single dimension of infinite dimensions, chose to give his list of 10 immutable laws in the Milky Way galaxy, on planet Earth after 3,999,996,00 years of evolution (give or take) to a man named Moses. ???

And the list this infinite eternal creator of countless souls on countless worlds and in countless dimensions came up with a list that looks like this:

1 - 3 are all about himself, demanding obedience and proclaiming to be a jealous god

4 - keep the sabbath holy because god rested on the 7th day. So we are tying a day of our calendar to a cycle of the Earth rotating on it's axis which began billions of years before man existed on Earth. And, if you have read the bible you see that there was light before there were stars and the sun, and the sun around which our days and weeks are based was created on the fourth day (after the plants were growing on Earth btw). I hate to point out the obvious but an eternal creator never bothered tracking our calendar.

5 - honor parents - Ok, good sentiment but seems a bit mundane for the half-way mark of the creator's top ten

6 - don't kill - good one

7 - no adultery - another good sentiment but defining adultery is a problem and another one questionable for a top ten list

8 - don't steal - no argument here

9 - don't lie - no argument

10 - don't covet - god's "saved the best for last" on his top ten list?

I'm not trying to attack anyone's beliefs, but I just don't understand how anyone who has seen a hubble deep field shot for instance, can call this a story worth believing.

If the creator of all handed this list to Moses to be our immutable laws forever then it's the most extreme case of micromanaging ever heard of. And in my mind not that good of a list.

[RedeZra]

Maybe the ten commandments were a way of bringing people to a proper way of interacting with others.


yes the Ten Commandments are for our own welfare
if we all observed them
we would live in peace and prosperity as a big happy family


So the infinite and eternal creator of more suns than there are grains of sand on Earth, across 81 billion*trillion (give or take) miles of visible space and 13.5 billion years of time, in a single dimension of infinite dimensions, chose to give his list of 10 immutable laws in the Milky Way galaxy, on planet Earth after 3,999,996,00 years of evolution (give or take) to a man named Moses. ???


this is what the establishment wants us to believe

that this earth is millions or billions of years old

and that we are the result of a long slow evolution


i don't know how old the universe is

but i don't buy that humans evolved from amoeba


life is possible on other planets

but there is no reason to jump to the conclusion that advanced ET is here tampering with us on the earth

there has been an increase in sightings contacts and channelings from those who assume to be ET from various planets


but i believe this is the great delusion the Bible is warning us about

meaning they are not what they appear to be


i think they are from another vibration or dimension that have the ability to manifest and mind manipulate

[161803398]

well even though I didn't like that "thou shalt have no other God before thee" commandment because in my world there was 1. one God and 2. my God would never have said such thing, I do like the "thou shalt not bear false witness" commandment the best. It would have saved everyone if George Bush and his henchpersons had simply followed it, but they didn't.

[goinghome2012]

Maybe the ten commandments were a way of bringing people to a proper way of interacting with others.


yes the Ten Commandments are for our own welfare

if we all observed them

we would live in peace and prosperity as a big happy family


but we don't inhabit this earth alone

we share it with spirits

where some are up to no good


they want to see humanity in hell

because they themselves fell from Heaven

What a perfect fantasy. Maybe if the Abrahamic God would lead by example,,, We would be more apt to follow a commandment... However, He does not follow his own rules, therefore, the rules of the house are null and void. Key word VOID!

I do not need to read some set of rules to be a good person, with a good heart.

This world would be a much better place if the Bible had never been written... Sooooo much needles killing in its name... Makes you wonder, don't it??

The Bible was written by man,,, and man is flawed. You CANNOT win this argument. It is a question of FAITH... And faith cannot be found in a book.

I have been turned away and angrily lashed out against by many Christian churches and church leaders, because I experience the OBE... ??? WTF???

You folks definately have another thing coming.

I love God with all of my heart,,, The god in your Bible,,, is NOT him/her...

The kingdom of heaven is within,,,, (not WITHIN a book!!)

I know what I know, and it is contrary to the image of God in the Bible. I only have my little piece of the puzzle, and I offer it to anyone who will listen.

I will never judge anyone who does not experience, and therefore, does not understand what I am talking about. And I do NOT try and force my beliefs onto another.

We are NOT sheep, that need to be led around. We are sovereign. We are beyond kneeling and giving our power to unseen FALSE gods...

And YES, the Bible IS covering something up. the truth!! That we are sovereign souls,,, That we can stand and shine our OWN lights,,, That we DON'T need a GOD to worship... I can admire someone following the teachings of Jesus. But Worship??? tsk tsk tsk...

I had a t-shirt made up with a beautiful painting of Jesus on the front,,, on the back,, it said "QUIT FOLLOWING ME!!!"

The strength of any church lies within the people. Not their god...

PS,,, I love you with all of my heart, Red...

I love you too, all religions will be gone soon !!!! you are right, God is not a belief system.

i love your post!!!!!

[tonius]

It would be interesting in a future version of the bible, to find written down at the bottom of the page, under the ten Commandments a disclamer similar to this :

'' Use this at your discretion, we don't guarantee that what is suggested and being promised above will have the desired effect in your life.
Recepies of ''life conduction'' given at mountains' tops, in bad weather and from voices who won't show themself are proven to not a reliable source of wisdom.
In fact the one who brought them first, from the mountain, killed nearly 3000 people to ''celebrate'' his incounter with the ''divine'' only to discover later that maybe
that was not the right call, as he had to climb back again and redo all over again.
He brought a commandement that said not to kill, than killed in order to ''honor'' the first of this comandements, what a mess. ''God was really angry at him..about...
the tablets he smashed, as for the killed people fortunately it was amnesty day.
How many lives will be ruined before we understand that maybe, i say maybe there is something wrong with this picture. ''

[RedeZra]

In fact the one who brought them first, from the mountain, killed nearly 3000 people to ''celebrate'' his incounter with the ''divine'' only to discover later that maybe
that was not the right call, as he had to climb back again and redo all over again.
He brought a commandement that said not to kill, than killed in order to ''honor'' the first of this comandements, what a mess.

God delivered the Israelites from slavery in Egypt and parted the Red Sea for them so they could escape from Pharao's army into Sinai without getting their feet wet

God descended as Spirit and Fire upon Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia

http://handofgod.com.au/attachments/Image/mount-sinai.jpg


and for 40 days Moses was with the Spirit of God surrounded by Fire upon Mt Sinai

while the Israelites grew impatient and fell back into worshiping the idols of Egypt


God would teach them patience for 40 years and none of them would enter the Promised Land except Caleb and Joshua

[markpierre]

Maybe the ten commandments were a way of bringing people to a proper way of interacting with others.


yes the Ten Commandments are for our own welfare

if we all observed them

we would live in peace and prosperity as a big happy family


but we don't inhabit this earth alone

we share it with spirits

where some are up to no good


they want to see humanity in hell

because they themselves fell from Heaven

What a perfect fantasy. Maybe if the Abrahamic God would lead by example,,, We would be more apt to follow a commandment... However, He does not follow his own rules, therefore, the rules of the house are null and void. Key word VOID!

I do not need to read some set of rules to be a good person, with a good heart.

This world would be a much better place if the Bible had never been written... Sooooo much needles killing in its name... Makes you wonder, don't it??

The Bible was written by man,,, and man is flawed. You CANNOT win this argument. It is a question of FAITH... And faith cannot be found in a book.

I have been turned away and angrily lashed out against by many Christian churches and church leaders, because I experience the OBE... ??? WTF???

You folks definately have another thing coming.

I love God with all of my heart,,, The god in your Bible,,, is NOT him/her...

The kingdom of heaven is within,,,, (not WITHIN a book!!)

I know what I know, and it is contrary to the image of God in the Bible. I only have my little piece of the puzzle, and I offer it to anyone who will listen.

I will never judge anyone who does not experience, and therefore, does not understand what I am talking about. And I do NOT try and force my beliefs onto another.

We are NOT sheep, that need to be led around. We are sovereign. We are beyond kneeling and giving our power to unseen FALSE gods...

And YES, the Bible IS covering something up. the truth!! That we are sovereign souls,,, That we can stand and shine our OWN lights,,, That we DON'T need a GOD to worship... I can admire someone following the teachings of Jesus. But Worship??? tsk tsk tsk...

I had a t-shirt made up with a beautiful painting of Jesus on the front,,, on the back,, it said "QUIT FOLLOWING ME!!!"

The strength of any church lies within the people. Not their god...

PS,,, I love you with all of my heart, Red...

“As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.”

[Gone002]

With the arrival of the new testament and the resserection of jesus, that was all changed, the barrier between god and mortal was changed and brought together.

[conk]

the wise thing to do is figure out why the Creator slays instead of whining about it

The creator exists at the center of a vast field of consciousness, and we are a part of it. It is an amazing story that is still unfolding. Any true God of Love and Peace and creativity will not 'slay' anything. Only a Tyrant deals in these sort of absolutes.

PS,,, Standing up and speaking out against a Tyrant is not Whining... Love you, you know that,,, Jake.


hi Jake


the Creator put in place some spiritual rules which we are supposed to abide if we want to live long in peace and prosperity

and at death enter the Kingdom of God


if we break the rules then we can repent and receive mercy


insistence on breaking the spiritual rules will in the end incur wrath and death


God has Righteous Rage in His repertoireJust like a broken water hydrant, spewing a constant stream of water. All the while totally ignoring the rational and reasoned wrench trying to stop the flow. Dude, you cannot posit a rebuttal from the same flawed source as the original mis-step.

[RedeZra]

Just like a broken water hydrant, spewing a constant stream of water. All the while totally ignoring the rational and reasoned wrench trying to stop the flow. Dude, you cannot posit a rebuttal from the same flawed source as the original mis-step.

the Creator drowned the whole world once

we are created beings

if we don't behave we loose our lives