THEY are human, too

[NeverMind]

A passage in another thread reminded me of a problem that, I think, needs to be addressed by any would-be researcher of, well, anything that has to do with humans, including possible conspiracies.

I am not particularly interested in exploring conspiracy theories, but I have seen enough of them over the years to have noticed one thing that stands out like a sore thumb:

Many, many people who are preoccupied with conspiracy theories somehow, quite astoundingly to me, fail to take into account that - unless you believe in Icke's theory about "reptilians" (I don't) - "they", whoever they may be, are humans, too.

Institutions are treated as monoliths - as if they weren't composed of people, individuals.
(In some extreme cases of bad historiography, even entire periods, epochs, are treated as if they were informed by homogeneous processes of thought.)

Yes, some individuals are easily subsumed and more or less willingly submit to the guiding principle of the larger group they are a part of. Some, not all. (And even those still remain human.)

Are there sociopaths and psychopaths? Of course, that goes without saying.
But truly "dehumanised" humans are extremely rare.

Which means that whatever scenario you may be considering, you simply have to take into account the "unknown quantity" of the Others' purely personal, individual impulses and inner drives, the unpredictability of the human growth dynamics.

Funnily enough (although it's quite sad, really), very many people who are into conspiracy theories are the same "love & light" people who waste no opportunity to affirm the sacredness of all life - and yet they deny the simple fact that the "others" are human, too?

But I am not pointing this out because of its unpleasant implications for the growth of the individual that fails to see the humanity of "them".

The problem with such a distorted view is that possible scenarios and their outcomes cannot be successfully predicted unless all the parametres are taken into account.
And when dealing with people, their humanity is the most important parameter.
It is also the most unpredictable one, but that goes with the territory. It is unavoidable.

Such cartoonish, black-and-white perception of others is quite common among over-protected children (although there are many exceptions).
What is it, then, that makes adult people reason along such lines?

I blame film - specifically, the Hollywood conveyor belt of motion pictures.
Their formative impact appears to be far greater than people in general could have imagined.
It is not the only influence, but it is the most insidious one.

[9eagle9]

De humanised people are not quite so rare anymore. 50 percent of the population is a generously low estimate. There are now people who are created sociopaths, and as you noted about new age conspiracy people, they are quickly beginning to constitue a portion of what is 'created' sociopathy. Lite or light' sociopaths, they dehumanize themselves with concepts about light. Because it has a human form doesn't mean its human in the full implication of the word. As a race we've lost track of what 'human' is.

I do see your point, I know of animals that have more humanity about them than humans do. Without the human form.

[NeverMind]

Animals shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with (all too many) "humans".
It's offensive to them. :)

[Curt]

In this clip, Katherine Austin Fitts offers a pretty keen insight that relates to how and why the system continues as it does...from her famous, 'Red Button Example'.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTm3Jbr6ePQ

[Borden]

Animals shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with (all too many) "humans".
It's offensive to them. :)

Exactly. And I can't stand it when people argue against vegetarians that "nature is cruel". Well, many species of animal do live and die by violence, that's true of course, but it all seems to be completely utilitarian, or evolutionarily understandable. Some animals' method of survival is downright creepy and awful, like spiders for example, but it makes sense.

But imagine if zoologists came across a group of gorillas, just as a for instance, whose violence did not stop at maintaining the pecking order, etc ... but had become something more. Imagine that these gorillas were enslaving, torturing and killing other gorillas, and other species of animal, and often for no obvious purpose - in a wasteful, illogical way. Imagine that these gorillas had conflicts with other groups of gorillas that were over acquisition of already plentiful resources, and that caused horrific destruction and loss of gorilla life. Imagine that the dominant males maintained all sorts of crazy rules that foods not suitable to gorillas were to be the norm, that all gorillas must toil in largely pointless ways for most of their waking lives in order to be a part of the group, etc, etc, etc.

We'd all be horrified. It would be perverse and unnatural. It would be frightening.

So now imagine that there is a race of advanced, well-meaning aliens who are having a look at us ... not that I necessarily subscribe to the idea that this is the case, but you see my point?

Anyway, I fully agree with NeverMind about the problem we have with dehumanizing certain people. We are all human. But I also agree with 9eagle9 that people who behave 'inhumanly' are not so rare as we might think.

It seems to me that the human race has been and is being guided into a state of sociopathy. By whom? Well, the sociopaths or psychopaths who have made it their business to be at the top of the pecking order. They are feeding us, manipulating us and guiding us into the ugliest facet of what we are. There is intelligent purpose in this.

It's my experience that an alarming number of the so-called 'spiritual' are like the religious people I've met. You scratch the surface of that smugness, that false 'peace', and there is so often a vicious, flailing mess of aggression and hatred. They wear a mask that is a concealment from themselves of their own insecurity and hostility. I sympathise because we all cleave to that which brings us comfort, but what I find sinister is that the groundwork, the 'philosophy' and the even the idiom seem to have been laid in place for them. Much like the trap of religion.

But that certainly doesn't refer to everybody who espouses love and light, or everybody who follows religion. Many of these people are lovely and intelligent, I've found, and I don't want to suggest I think otherwise ... that would be exactly the kind of 'black and white' that NeverMind is speaking about. You know, people come to things for different reasons and from different places.

I see the point about film being an insidious influence, and I sort of agree, but am a film buff, so don't want to! I do know that I've been without television for nearly a year, and that the brief glimpses I've had recently of what passes for entertainment horrified and depressed me. We are being socially engineered, and what we're being made into is becoming more and more scary and horrific to me.

Borden

[9eagle9]

Animals do express violence but its not based on human emotion. I watch the horses fighting all the time and its always to hold their space. Not out of malice. But preserving themselves. Stallions will run the bachelor colts from the herd but its to preserve the herd, so the the bachelors can go out and create their own herd. Never our of malice but because something in is infringing on the their space. Yes animals eat other animals, humans consume other humans in ways that are not so obvious. A lion can take take away the life force of antelope, and human will keep attempting to feed off the life force of another human.

[NeverMind]

You make some very good points there, Borden.
(As a vegetarian, I am not going to argue about the first point. You want to eat meat, "like nature intended"? Fine, go and kill the animal with your bare hands, like nature intended and animals do, then talk to me. :))

In fact, there is nothing that I disagree with. Your remark about being led into sociopathy, for example, could help bolster the argument that those people who are thundering against "them" for being sociopaths are themseves exhibiting signs of dangerous alienation, by refusing to see the humanity in "them".
I would only add that, if we are being "led" or guided", it is more of a closed-circuit loop, with the media - who are the main arbiter of what goes (and anything goes) these days - feeding off people's neuroses, which are in their turn fed by the media.
I doubt it is a concerted effort; but even if it were, those who may be concerting it, ARE humans - they are not monolithic instutitions, they are human individuals grouped in institutions - and should be analysed accordingly, or they will never be analysed accurately.
And this descent into sociopathy certainly isn't unavoidable.
What it is, is the personal responsibility of each individual to react and say NO. (And act accordingly, naturally.)


I see the point about film being an insidious influence, and I sort of agree, but am a film buff, so don't want to! I do know that I've been without television for nearly a year, and that the brief glimpses I've had recently of what passes for entertainment horrified and depressed me. We are being socially engineered, and what we're being made into is becoming more and more scary and horrific to me.

I am a HUGE film buff myself. :)
And I, too, have been without TV for more than a year now.
(I do have a perfectly functional TV set - and I even pay the damned license, not to mention dust the mastodont regularly - but I just don't turn it on. I wish I could make myself use it for flower arrangements, like some people do, but I am not quite there yet. :))

From what I can see on the web, I am not missing much.

[modwiz]

In this clip, Katherine Austin Fitts offers a pretty keen insight that relates to how and why the system continues as it does...from her famous, 'Red Button Example'.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTm3Jbr6ePQ

Interesting video and it identifies a big part of the problem, support of it. Even the speaker does not really seem to understand abundance and what money is. Very complicated to explain properly in words. One either 'gets it' or they don't. I for one am done trying to explain it. At least in public forums.

[9eagle9]

Light is very much an expression of one's self. Their natural state of being. Not necessarily that they are perfect people who are enveloped in a state of holiness but just authentic. Less artificial , more human.

Light is not something you talk about, its expressed through you. Someone who is just genuine and without artifice regardless if they are saying " Oh **** i slammed my fingers in the door" or saying "God bless you." I appreciate a person so much more who says "Oh had a drink fell down the stairs" rather than someone who has a light stick up their arse and never admits to any human foibles, because they are 'perfecting' or becoming. Or they are a light worker and can't ever do anything self expressive because the artificial role won't allow them. They have pose as a light person all the time even though they are anything but.

One's light, one's power, doesn't take work to express. It takes work to get out from the under mechanisms that prevent it's expression.

The powers that be don't care if we are dark sociopaths (like you see on TV) or light ones, just as long as we are disconnected from what we really are. Its the same thing.

And they are doing a good job but only because people are refusing not only their own authentic expression but slandering those who are truly authentic in expression even it there are not what one typically has grown to expect from spiritual people.

It is a false peace program. Peace-enabling, artifical peace. You scratch beneath the surface that peace program has been intiated to mask the fear program. Fear cannot exist where real peace is, so it's easy to see it. . I'm sorry that people feel offended when you see right through them but it's their choice. It's not like we are hiding the truth of themselves from them.

Some of the most authentically self expressive people I know have never dabbled in religion or new age spirituality, and these people lead charmed lives. Their absolutely delightful not in what they talk about but how they LIVE, and express themselves. There is such a comfortable space with people who are just being human. No artifice whatsoever. Animals don't adopt these roles that people do, they behave the way that is natural to them. My mare goes and stands in front of a mirror and stares at herself but its not the same reason a person would. When I'm doing something that is not natural she corrects me. She nips me. "You're wrong, straighten up , lady."She has no qualms about doing this, its within her right to do so. She always knows who she is. She wasn't always that way, before she came into my life she had an artifical stabled existence imposed on her. She was uptight, striking out, angry, naughty, didn't like other horses, or people, anxious, ulcers the whole nine yards. She had a label of viscious, always ready to explode. This is not natural to horses, its imposed on them. When we allowed her natural expression, put in with a herd, and let her be free, she completey began behaving as a horse does. Amiable, congenial, wanting to be with other horses , truthful or authentic all the time, willing to be with others of her kind and not separated or 'specialized' or above them. That goes for all animals.





Animals shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with (all too many) "humans".
It's offensive to them. :)

Exactly. And I can't stand it when people argue against vegetarians that "nature is cruel". Well, many species of animal do live and die by violence, that's true of course, but it all seems to be completely utilitarian, or evolutionarily understandable. Some animals' method of survival is downright creepy and awful, like spiders for example, but it makes sense.

But imagine if zoologists came across a group of gorillas, just as a for instance, whose violence did not stop at maintaining the pecking order, etc ... but had become something more. Imagine that these gorillas were enslaving, torturing and killing other gorillas, and other species of animal, and often for no obvious purpose - in a wasteful, illogical way. Imagine that these gorillas had conflicts with other groups of gorillas that were over acquisition of already plentiful resources, and that caused horrific destruction and loss of gorilla life. Imagine that the dominant males maintained all sorts of crazy rules that foods not suitable to gorillas were to be the norm, that all gorillas must toil in largely pointless ways for most of their waking lives in order to be a part of the group, etc, etc, etc.

We'd all be horrified. It would be perverse and unnatural. It would be frightening.

So now imagine that there is a race of advanced, well-meaning aliens who are having a look at us ... not that I necessarily subscribe to the idea that this is the case, but you see my point?

Anyway, I fully agree with NeverMind about the problem we have with dehumanizing certain people. We are all human. But I also agree with 9eagle9 that people who behave 'inhumanly' are not so rare as we might think.

It seems to me that the human race has been and is being guided into a state of sociopathy. By whom? Well, the sociopaths or psychopaths who have made it their business to be at the top of the pecking order. They are feeding us, manipulating us and guiding us into the ugliest facet of what we are. There is intelligent purpose in this.

It's my experience that an alarming number of the so-called 'spiritual' are like the religious people I've met. You scratch the surface of that smugness, that false 'peace', and there is so often a vicious, flailing mess of aggression and hatred. They wear a mask that is a concealment from themselves of their own insecurity and hostility. I sympathise because we all cleave to that which brings us comfort, but what I find sinister is that the groundwork, the 'philosophy' and the even the idiom seem to have been laid in place for them. Much like the trap of religion.

But that certainly doesn't refer to everybody who espouses love and light, or everybody who follows religion. Many of these people are lovely and intelligent, I've found, and I don't want to suggest I think otherwise ... that would be exactly the kind of 'black and white' that NeverMind is speaking about. You know, people come to things for different reasons and from different places.

I see the point about film being an insidious influence, and I sort of agree, but am a film buff, so don't want to! I do know that I've been without television for nearly a year, and that the brief glimpses I've had recently of what passes for entertainment horrified and depressed me. We are being socially engineered, and what we're being made into is becoming more and more scary and horrific to me.

Borden

[BlueX]

They are human, so they are lead by fear just like we all are at times.
I think since they are human, some of them will wake up and feel awful for what they did.
Some will be proud of dropping the gun first. Some might not, but that is what karma is for.
When the allies invaded Nazi-Germany, most of the people that had lived in fear and
kept their heads down because they were scared of putting their families in danger,
dropped their "guns" happily. Fear paralizes you.
I know a lot of people that work in jobs that we would consider "soul-less" and they start
to wake up now and quit. Or wait for others to drop the ball and then follow.
I think we should still thow stones at the castle until we know who will join the movement
and who will stay inside and go down with it. some are just not as proactive and wait
it out until it is "safe".

[Curt]

In this clip, Katherine Austin Fitts offers a pretty keen insight that relates to how and why the system continues as it does...from her famous, 'Red Button Example'.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTm3Jbr6ePQ

Interesting video and it identifies a big part of the problem, support of it. Even the speaker does not really seem to understand abundance and what money is. Very complicated to explain properly in words. One either 'gets it' or they don't. I for one am done trying to explain it. At least in public forums.

Yep. But it would be a very worthy thread-topic if the right people cultivated it....

[Ilie Pandia]

Hello NeverMind,

You have an interesting opening post. Yes, I also believe that "they" are humans, but I am also open to the possibility that there is indeed "off-planet" (or alien) influence. If those are "reptilian", "cockroaches" or "mikeymouses" I have have no idea.

But that being said,indeed the vast majority of "them" are humans :)

And here is my completion to your post: "they" are us! (our brothers and sisters and friends and girlfriends and boyfriends and sometimes even us... work within this system and occupy the role of "they" to someone else).

[NeverMind]

Hello NeverMind,

You have an interesting opening post. Yes, I also believe that "they" are humans, but I am also open to the possibility that there is indeed "off-planet" (or alien) influence. If those are "reptilian", "cockroaches" or "mikeymouses" I have have no idea.

But that being said,indeed the vast majority of "them" are humans :)

And here is my completion to your post: "they" are us! (our brothers and sisters and friends and girlfriends and boyfriends and sometimes even us... work within this system and occupy the role of "they" to someone else).

And here's my completion of your post: AMEN.

What worries me is that so many people seem to be averse to even entertaining the thought that those quasi-monolithic institutions and groups are, in fact, made of individuals, subject to human impulses.
(Let's leave possible mickeymousian impulses for another discussion.
And it should be an interesting one. :))

[Sidney]

I know this is somewhat off topic, but anyone who has not read Delores Cannons book titled "Keepers of the Garden", here is the link, I found on a different thread here It is certainly food for thought, as far as the "human"ness is concerned. The argument here of whether or not humans are indeed humans, but rather that just because they are human does not mean that they are from here, and/or have the best motives backing up their actions.

http://flavian.ro/engleza/Dolores%20Cannon%20-%202%20Keepers%20of%20the%20Garden.pdf

[modwiz]

I am only one being with an opinion and it is not for sale. Humanity has a few very big problems and ignorance and weakness of spirit being huge ones. Too many are all too willing enablers and abettors of high crimes against humanity. Then there is the elite problem which I liken to a flea and tick problem. The collective body of humanity is being fed upon for its life blood. Ticks have the decency to drop off when they are full, but our ticks show no indication of satiation. Fleas just multiply until the host withers or is 'cleansed'. I do not mistake ticks for lady bugs and treat them differently. Spirituality is free of revenge and anger, but does not need be free of discernment and a sense of self preservation, that comes from a sense of self worth.

Just my perspective and I ask none to share it.

[NeverMind]

Spirituality is free of revenge and anger, but does not need be free of discernment and a sense of self preservation, that comes from a sense of self worth.

Of course not. Far from it.
But the point I wanted to make - primarily - was that, unless one takes into account the humanity of.... the ticks, the assessment of their nature will be inevitably flawed and their actions will not be predicted accurately.
The dynamics of human impulses and drives in any given individual can be restrained by a group up to a point, but never entirely.

Not to mention there are many, MANY ticks who are such by inertia only. Which is no lesser an evil; but there is hope for them. :-)
There's always hope.

And of course, the internal acknowledgement of humanity in others makes the heart sooo much lighter, and everything, even the mind, runs better when unencumbered by the dead weight of fictional (or exaggerated) "golems".
But that's something that probably everyone agrees with, so there's no use flogging it further. :)






.

[another bob]

I am only one being with an opinion and it is not for sale. Humanity has a few very big problems and ignorance and weakness of spirit being huge ones. Too many are all too willing enablers and abettors of high crimes against humanity. Then there is the elite problem which I liken to a flea and tick problem. The collective body of humanity is being fed upon for its life blood. Ticks have the decency to drop off when they are full, but our ticks show no indication of satiation. Fleas just multiply until the host withers or is 'cleansed'. I do not mistake ticks for lady bugs and treat them differently. Spirituality is free of revenge and anger, but does not need be free of discernment and a sense of self preservation, that comes from a sense of self worth.

Just my perspective and I ask none to share it.


On this planet those who don't fight for their freedoms will live under tyrants.

:yo:

[gooty64]

Inhuman...

gFGcF1id1PM

[Cilka]

I have a different view of what humans should be or what real humans are. I grew up in a communist country Czechoslovakia. I have lived in Canada for almost 30 years. I have seen a lot of changes happening to the people in Canada over the years and I have to say that they are, and so are the people living today in the Czech Republic and Slovakia 'no more communist', undergoing some kind of de-humanizing these past 15-20 years. How should I explain it? Having the opportunity to live under both, communist and capitalist, regimes the changes I see in humans is that people are holding back from expressing themselves as humans; humans are becoming mechanical zombies. It's like they are constantly monitoring what they are about to say or what is appropriate to say, and majority of humans now are not expressing their freedom of speech. To me, not being able to express myself is very dehumanizing. In the past we were able to fight over the stupidest things without killing each other, and people always made up somehow over a drink or something. Today people are wiling to kill each other for someone being deleted as a friend on Facebook. I think humans are nuts and the sad thing is that they don't even know that they are nust. The new generation of humans, well, let me not get started on that.

One can consider ET's as being a different type of a human, but then, we are not able to completely disect them socially because they are the ET/humans in hiding. But then again, we have our humans to deaL with, and these type of humans need to be made aware that they are becoming mechanical zombies before it is too late. I sure don't want to keep on living in a zombieland.

[NeverMind]

Today people are wiling to kill each other for someone being deleted as a friend on Facebook. I think humans are nuts and the sad thing is that they don't even know that they are nust. The new generation of humans, well, let me not get started on that.

The "spirit of the time", the Zeitgeist, with its expressions is basically a dominant mode - and even "mood" - of interaction in a given society.
And in this day and age, in the global society, it is the media that drive it.

Earlier I mentioned film, but I forgot to mention the impact of the internet.
I think the internet is acting as a sort of "hothouse" of expression.
Unfortunately, this also means appealing to the lowest common denominator and amplifying the effect of ugliness, which then affects - slowly and insidiously - people's perception of others, of the state of humanity, and conditions their own reactions. Various forums (I do not mean this one), on all sorts of subjects, seem to be proof of that. (For film buffs, IMDB is a notorious example of degradation by letting vulgarity - not just verbal, but vulgarity of thought - run rampant. YouTube is another one.)

Ugliness and debasement are potentially highly contagious anyway; with the help of the internet, the great amplifier, they propagate like a wildfire - and their effect reaches beyond the internet, into "real" life, colouring the perception and interaction of the world in general.

What can I say?
Say NO. Say it with your own way of life and your mode of interaction, and persist in it.
That is the most anyone can do.

[haibane]

... and these type of humans need to be made aware that they are becoming mechanical zombies before it is too late. I sure don't want to keep on living in a zombieland.
Neither do I — any good ideas just how to do that?

[NeverMind]

[QUOTE=Cilka;428814] ... and these type of humans need to be made aware that they are becoming mechanical zombies before it is too late. I sure don't want to keep on living in a zombieland.


Neither do I — any good ideas just how to do that?


How about this one? :-)


Say NO. Say it with your own way of life and your mode of interaction, and persist in it.
That is the most anyone can do.

[gooty64]

About ten years ago Eckhart Tolle labeled it "collective mental illness", -this is what needs to be solved before anything else.

I will say about 6 months ago, I had a pretty frightening realization that I was surrounded by zombies in my everyday life.

Really it's is just the majority clinging out of fear to their programming/paradigm.

Or it could just be me.

About ten years ago I remember thinking out loud to myself while driving around in my car, "Is it just me?"

When I named my retro/vintage business in 2007 it was a toss up between "Mental prison" or "Is it just me". I decide to stick with Swank -instead.

Now I would choose "Zombie Land".



... and these type of humans need to be made aware that they are becoming mechanical zombies before it is too late. I sure don't want to keep on living in a zombieland.
Neither do I — any good ideas just how to do that?

[haibane]

How about this one? :-)


Say NO. Say it with your own way of life and your mode of interaction, and persist in it.
That is the most anyone can do.


Yes, not a bad way to start. Also it works — sometimes that is. But most of the time people just stare at you, asking why the hell should anyone resist doing something they believe is perfectly normal. Also please don't forget that not all people are native English speaker (or ANY English speakers for that matter) so the argument of 'go check it yourself' doesn't always work. It doesn't even work even if everything already IS in their own language.

Any other ideas pls?

(^__^ )

[Erich]

A passage in another thread reminded me of a problem that, I think, needs to be addressed by any would-be researcher of, well, anything that has to do with humans, including possible conspiracies.

I am not particularly interested in exploring conspiracy theories, but I have seen enough of them over the years to have noticed one thing that stands out like a sore thumb:

Many, many people who are preoccupied with conspiracy theories somehow, quite astoundingly to me, fail to take into account that - unless you believe in Icke's theory about "reptilians" (I don't) - "they", whoever they may be, are humans, too.
Institutions are treated as monoliths - as if they weren't composed of people, individuals.
(In some extreme cases of bad historiography, even entire periods, epochs, are treated as if they were informed by homogeneous processes of thought.)

Yes, some individuals are easily subsumed and more or less willingly submit to the guiding principle of the larger group they are a part of. Some, not all. (And even those still remain human.)

Are there sociopaths and psychopaths? Of course, that goes without saying.
But truly "dehumanised" humans are extremely rare.

Which means that whatever scenario you may be considering, you simply have to take into account the "unknown quantity" of the Others' purely personal, individual impulses and inner drives, the unpredictability of the human growth dynamics.

Funnily enough (although it's quite sad, really), very many people who are into conspiracy theories are the same "love & light" people who waste no opportunity to affirm the sacredness of all life - and yet they deny the simple fact that the "others" are human, too?

But I am not pointing this out because of its unpleasant implications for the growth of the individual that fails to see the humanity of "them".

The problem with such a distorted view is that possible scenarios and their outcomes cannot be successfully predicted unless all the parametres are taken into account.
And when dealing with people, their humanity is the most important parameter.
It is also the most unpredictable one, but that goes with the territory. It is unavoidable.

Such cartoonish, black-and-white perception of others is quite common among over-protected children (although there are many exceptions).
What is it, then, that makes adult people reason along such lines?

I blame film - specifically, the Hollywood conveyor belt of motion pictures.
Their formative impact appears to be far greater than people in general could have imagined.
It is not the only influence, but it is the most insidious one.

Nice writing, Nevermind. The opposite of the generalized thinking you describe is critical thinking which we often try to teach students in school, up through university. It's very difficult to get students to question their assumptions about the world around them. Not only do we try to strip out judgement or belief or veracity, but get them to see the most basic components of the assumption. How does a thing make meaning? A Stop sign, a poem, a government, and so on...The next step is multi-culturalism. Then unity.

[another bob]

Any other ideas pls?

Oft repeated but ever-true:

Live your own life with impeccable integrity, discarding any motive based on the poisons of greed, envy, and hatred. It's amazing what the power of example will do. And try to find a little humor in it all, by not taking yourself too seriously! If you can laugh at yourself now and then, you're already ahead of the game, and those with whom you come in contact will also wake up a little in the process! Above all, find the gratitude within yourself so you can enjoy each day as the wonderful gift that it is, and share that gift with those you love. Then, as you are able, expand that loving embrace to include all sentient beings. Love is the cure for the emotional contraction at the root of all zombiehood.

What was that line from the Beatles . . .

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

:yo:

[NeverMind]

The opposite of the generalized thinking you describe is critical thinking which we often try to teach students in school, up through university. It's very difficult to get students to question their assumptions about the world around them. Not only do we try to strip out judgement or belief or veracity, but get them to see the most basic components of the assumption. How does a thing make meaning?

Exactly.
I am only "quoting" this (above) because I feel it is so essential to what I tried to express.
Critical thought and assumptions (let alone stereotypes) don't mix.
And denying the human components of any established "power" on Earth leads nowhere.
Well, that's not exactly true: it leads to double standards, bitterness, frustration, even generalised hatred, in some cases. It obfuscates; it leads into a haze that makes it impossible to analyse, and deal with, the problems that arise (or so it seems) from that source of "power".

[wolf_rt]

Animals shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with (all too many) "humans".
It's offensive to them. :)

Frankly i find this statement offensive... all living things deserve the same respect, weather they be animal, human, alien, reptilian or whatever....

yes many humans are fallible, as are no doubt many alien races...

yes we would do better if there were less humans, but who do you suggest we kill/sterilise first??? people who don't agree with your opinion?

any suggestion that humans are 'less' than animals is racism in a most diabolical form.

[NeverMind]

If we were talking about humans in general, I agree wholeheartedly, Wolf.
But we weren't. That's what the "all too many" stands for.

However, sometimes we have to make forceful statements to make a "self-evident truth" (which is neither), such as "animals are less than people", appear in all its absurdity, to jolt the mentality that fosters such thought, hoping eventually to redress a terrible wrong.
But that's a different topic.

[wolf_rt]

I think that is a dangerous way to proceed...

any attempt to judge a species (or any group of beings) by the actions of the majority (or minority) of its members, leads inevitably to racism.

'they' (or TBTB or whatever) deserve the same respect as you would afford to any animal or human or alien. You may not agree with there actions, and you can try to show them the error of there ways, but you cannot disallow them their opinions, or you forfeit your right to free speech/opinion.

any 'policy' that is aimed at righting a wrong committed to a group of people is (provably i believe) bound to fail, it will only encourage the 'us and them' mindset held by both groups...

until we realise that no 'entity' is better or worse than another, we are bound to continue our problems in this regard.

only truth can set things right, any attempt to 'swing the pendulum the other way' to right wrongs (or prove a point) just continues the false separation.

[NeverMind]

they' (or TBTB or whatever) deserve the same respect as you would afford to any animal or human

That's the whole point of this thread. :)
That's what I've been saying all along.

[wolf_rt]

coolio then... sorry, i just react to any inference that humanity is not a part of nature.

[Borden]

coolio then... sorry, i just react to any inference that humanity is not a part of nature.

Me too ... though as NeverMind said, sometimes a jolt seems required, even if it's an exaggerated statement. We're animals too after all. Unfortunately, reductionist science and before it religion have attempted to hypnotize the world into believing we are somehow set apart from nature, from the animal kingdom, from everything basically ... except the paradigm du jour.

Gooty64 describes his realisation that he's surrounded by zombies, and I experienced (and experience) something very similar. I think the fact that he even asks himself the question 'is it just me?' is proof that it isn't just him, and that he's aware, but unwilling to just demonize and dismiss his fellow man.

There are masses of people who appear zombie-like in their blind adherence to the anti-nature world that's been created for them ... and then there are some people who behave in an inhuman way. But as NeverMind says, all of 'em are human really. I wouldn't imagine a rabid Pit-bull to be something supernatural or other than it is ... but I would want it at a safe distance!

Down here on the planet of the apes, animals are the underdog, so to speak, ho ho. Maybe that's why some of us are over-protective towards them, but no, I wouldn't choose to subject even the most evil and appalling figures on the world stage to what a battery hen, for instance, has to go through.

By the way, the 'planet of the apes' thing is how my realisation came about. I find that if you look at people as hairless primates, then everything takes on a new and horrible hue. You watch them tapping away on their mobile phones ... congregating at places where they eat, drink, and try to attract each other ... furnishing their abodes ... etc, etc, etc ...

Worst of all, and as much as I'd rather be Charlton Heston (with his vest on) ... I'm one too! Aaargh!

Borden

[9eagle9]

We live in society where we bail out huge corrupt banks, bancorrupted, and call it preserving self interest. ...but then squall about some old lady drawing 100 dollars worth of food stamps a month (which is really self interest, immediate self interest) and call that welfare. It's not money really that is the problem its the system and the system is kept in place by the ideas people have about money--love it, or hate it.. On our ground level we have a great deal of money passing thorugh our hands, like water. It is because money is currency. It's not meant to be held on to. So the ptb created dams to block up the flow. My money situation is like a tide, it ebbs and flows. I accept that. Like the ociean it doesn't evaporate it just ebbs periodicaly and it when does I can't expect another flow.

In this area so many people have been forced on welfare and are bitterly ashamed of it, and I just tell those people look at it as the universe supporting you. Just let it flow in for now. Society didn't create currents, or currency its naturally occuring, money is just physical representation of it. Don't be ashamed to sustain yourself. Or look our for your self interests. It's hard to resist a system where eveyone is participaing in it until you know what abundance is. They have us brainwashed into thinking that those at the top of the heap are more important, and their self interests somehow are more profound than ours. Don't listen to people caught in the system are saying whether they are financialy secure or well off. The people I most see grousing about welfare are those who will never need it but they think nothing of maintaining their 'respectiable citizen' persona by feeding and supporting a morally corrupt system.

They gripe, Well unlike 'those' people I have to go out and work for a living.

Yes, you have slave mentality. Actually you don't you are just slave to your own system, you bought into this idea to be responsible you had to have the right car, the right house, the right accoutrements, be in the right clubs and community groups, the right silverware--the chain of what is 'correct' to show a responsible person 'looks' like. All that stuff costs money to maintain this mask. So you have to work harder to support your own story, your own system. Responsible people 'respond' they don't react. Even after you've thrown money everywhere to support the mask-erade you are still not response-able.Unable to respond but only react.

I'm a fine citizen I pay my taxes.

Yes you have slave mentality.

This is nothing to do with money, its social engineering the person caught in the throwing money every which way to suppor their mask-erade 'think' they are better than people who are going on welfare who through great shame (social engineering) decide to be responsbile for their own self interests. Responding to a situation instead of reacting to it.

That has always been my prejudice, or judgement and I can't work myself out of it is people who throw money, react with it, throw money at situations to fix them bug me to death. Watching them do anything is like watching just throw their attention at something just to get the 'problem' fixed whether it's plants, animals or other people. This whole way of going hides a carelessness that just drives me up the wall and I can't work this out of myself. Drives me nuts, their are not even living in this money, or enjoying its just something to throw when they get in reaction mode.









In this clip, Katherine Austin Fitts offers a pretty keen insight that relates to how and why the system continues as it does...from her famous, 'Red Button Example'.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTm3Jbr6ePQ

Interesting video and it identifies a big part of the problem, support of it. Even the speaker does not really seem to understand abundance and what money is. Very complicated to explain properly in words. One either 'gets it' or they don't. I for one am done trying to explain it. At least in public forums.

[gooty64]

Yes, you have slave mentality. Actually you don't you are just slave to your own system, you bought into this idea to be responsible you had to have the right car, the right house, the right accoutrements, be in the right clubs and community groups, the right silverware--the chain of what is 'correct' to show a responsible person 'looks' like. All that stuff costs money to maintain this mask. So you have to work harder to support your own story, your own system. Responsible people 'respond' they don't react. Even after you've thrown money everywhere to support the mask-erade you are still not response-able.Unable to respond but only react.

9e9, My only (living) sibling is a brother 41, wife 3 young kids. He and his wife both work for Ameriprise (largest financial corp). They are slightly upper middle class and he has stated wanting to improve "to a better neighborhood/schools". They are actually really good people-they just believe in the "system". It's sad and disgusting to me.

So, last fall when I tried to explain to my brother that he should stock up on 1-2 months worth of food and water for his family-the shtf in my family. Basically, it came down to (Gooty)"Alan you can't change the system-one person can't do anything-blahblahblah". This was told to me by my brother and mother!

And to me this is a great illustration of how we are stuck in this unsustainable, corrupt, money, exaggerated consumption ratrace. I can promise you my brother won't slow down/stop until he gets caught, and he has plenty of friends and in-laws perpetuating the "beating the Jones" BS/american dream/BS.

And so as it stand today in my family, i am the "crazy one" and they are the "whatevers" fill in the blankers----I promised someone not to be so sarcastic-lol!

[9eagle9]

One person can't change an entire system. The system created by mutual community agreement, and the agreeing to operate in the system. In order to change it has to be mutual agreement. The moment they say we 'have to pay taxes' and we start paying them regardless if we like doing it...we've made an agreement to do so. We might disagree about the concept of taxes but pay them anyway ....we are still agreeing with the system. No wonder people are insane "I'm doing what I don't agree to."..lol.

We can change our own system.



Yes, you have slave mentality. Actually you don't you are just slave to your own system, you bought into this idea to be responsible you had to have the right car, the right house, the right accoutrements, be in the right clubs and community groups, the right silverware--the chain of what is 'correct' to show a responsible person 'looks' like. All that stuff costs money to maintain this mask. So you have to work harder to support your own story, your own system. Responsible people 'respond' they don't react. Even after you've thrown money everywhere to support the mask-erade you are still not response-able.Unable to respond but only react.

9e9, My only (living) sibling is a brother 41, wife 3 young kids. He and his wife both work for Ameriprise (largest financial corp). They are slightly upper middle class and he has stated wanting to improve "to a better neighborhood/schools". They are actually really good people-they just believe in the "system". It's sad and disgusting to me.

So, last fall when I tried to explain to my brother that he should stock up on 1-2 months worth of food and water for his family-the shtf in my family. Basically, it came down to (Gooty)"Alan you can't change the system-one person can't do anything-blahblahblah". This was told to me by my brother and mother!

And to me this is a great illustration of how we are stuck in this unsustainable, corrupt, money, exaggerated consumption ratrace. I can promise you my brother won't slow down/stop until he gets caught, and he has plenty of friends and in-laws perpetuating the "beating the Jones" BS/american dream/BS.

And so as it stand today in my family, i am the "crazy one" and they are the "whatevers" fill in the blankers----I promised someone not to be so sarcastic-lol!

[9eagle9]

A couple years ago a woman I knew who proffessed to be quite spiritual and aware (yeah I'll make that determination...lol) calls me one day and says , "I'm coming to visit you tommorow will you be home?"

Oh sure, I'll be here all afteroon.

She tells me she's going arrive around 1 pm or so and that she'lll text me shortly before hand to let me know she's on her way.

So the next day I get a text at 12.30 pm, and I repsonded that I was at home and just come inside when she got here. A half hour later she pulls in the driveway. She gets out of her car, looks around, gets back in the car and leaves. So I'm sitting there blinking wondering if she forgot something or whatever. An hour goes by and then another. So finally i call her and say, What happened to you?

Well I went to your house and you weren't home.

Mind you, she didn't even knock on the door.

Okay, I say, you texted me right before you arrived and I responded, so what gave you the idea I wasn't home.

Your truck wasn't in the driveway.

Well no, it was in the garage.

Oh.

(yes oh how utterly bizarre that a vehicle would be in a garage....durp)

This whole event reallly drove home to me how zombiefied people are. Like a complete auto pilot, even all outstanding evidence demonstrates that I must in fact be home, the very fact my car wasn't on display steered her otherwise. This freaked me out so badly ....and is when I became aware of how reactionary, people are. Just knee jerking to everything, completely unaware even within their physical environment. And these same people 'think' they are aware of a non physical environment, and unseen environment.It just amazes me, and its scary to know people are operating like just walking around in a complete state of unawareness and thinking they are are aware. They get angry at the suggestiong they are sleep waking--sleep walking- but all evidence SHOWs that is exactly what they are doing.

[NeverMind]

One person can't change an entire system.

Individuals, each one of us, are seeds.
Sometimes the change we are living for others to see and follow propagates quickly (Rosa Parks is a famous example), sometimes it appears as if nothing will ever come out of it.
But if we want to effect a change - or progress - there is no choice but living the change we want to see, no matter what.


They are actually really good people-they just believe in the "system". It's sad and disgusting to me.

I know what you mean.
It's heartbreaking to see people you love and want to respect - need to respect - behaving in a manner that you find less than respectable or outright stupid.
I know it because I have one or two people in my own family who can be astonishingly stupid - and way too lenient with the "system" - myself.
It's an awful, awful feeling.





P.S. Somewhat off topic, hence the "p.s."....


wouldn't choose to subject even the most evil and appalling figures on the world stage to what a battery hen, for instance, has to go through.

This is the year when battery farming of hens is going to be - finally! - outlawed in the EU.
It's a small victory (and it was decided way back, in 1999), but it is a victory nevertheless. :)