Nothing to forgive.

[Tony]

Nothing to forgive.

This is an incredibly important subject, with important ramifications!

Forgiveness is a tricky subject, as it entails looking and understanding from many aspects.
It will also depend on the view we hold on to.

We all want to see justice for a so-called wrong doing...and there is the problem!
A cause creates an effect, and the effect creates another cause.
At street level we want to see tit for tat. An eye for an eye...now!

At a more thoughtful level: do we forgive or not?
Do we forgive and forget?
If we forgive and forget, do we still want an over-sized piano to drop on the person?
Do we forgive, forget and move on, hoping that natural justice will take place at some time?
(hoping that the piano option still might, work..if we pray hard enough!!!)

We have to see the difference between forgiving, and wanting retaliation.

What happens is that we try to forgive, but there is something in the back of our minds that holds on...it does not forget. We hold on to a wound, and will probably have nothing to do with that person again.
But let's be honest, there is still the problem of us not letting go.

When we walk into a room full of people we know, or look on the forum, there are those we are attracted to, those we dislike, and those we ignore. These are the very same three poisons we keep hearing about (attraction, aversion and indifference). So we continue carrying a library of judgements around with us, as usual.
We all do it!

We need another view point.
What if there is no forgiveness necessary?!

If we were to look at a video of ourselves from the past; apart from admiring how young we looked, wouldn't we squirm at what we said and did - because we know better now. We can't really judge ourselves because at that time we did not know better, or we didn't have enough data, or skill, or experience etc. We were being true to our nature at that time. Do we need to forgive a crocodile for killing and eating people? It's what it does at this moment in its evolution.

We might feel uncomfortable watching the video of ourselves, but there would be nothing to forgive: we just lacked experience. Everyone has done things they did not mean. We have all been wounded by others who also did things they had no control over, and wished they could have done better.

We all lack understanding at some time. It is all a process: some of us learn faster or slower.
If we are intolerant, then the situation in which we find ourselves will seem more intense, and so we will over react...we all do that!

So there is nothing to forgive...although we can empathise!

Sooner or later our karma will present itself, which in fact is happening at every moment.
Here we are talking about everyday situations, with friends, work colleagues and family.
But what of the bigger picture with the PTB? Those who create wars, famine, dis-ease and suffering on a huge scale.

Well, it's the same, but compounded. Their karmic load will be greater, unless they truly repent and work to exhaust that karma. I know this sounds unfair - that people can create so much suffering but still become enlightened - but it happened to Milarepa!

The PTB may try to change the wording of the law, to put the karma back in our court, but the karma stays with the seed of their intention...foolish people!

All sentient beings have an awakened essence, but do not realise it - even the PTB. Even sentient beings from other dimensions have this awakened essence but do not realise it...yet. The highest wisdom in this universe is to realise our true empty essence. There is nothing vaster or higher then pure empty essence. That is the true nature of all the Victorious Ones.

If the PTB were the top of their pyramid, they would be pure evil...but they are not. They are not at the top of their pyramid! Because they are still sentient, they will suffer karmic debt. They will find out what the hot-hells and freezing-hells are like, if they are not doing so already!

At the top of 'their' pyramid are dark entities, or demons. In Buddhism they are called Mara.
They are just there, part of this universe - if there is light there must be dark. The pyramid is held together by our greed, fear, and the abuse of power (the three poisons again...). Everyone is using everyone else. They - and we - do not realise that the Mara are feeding off all of us.

We allow this because we cannot control our emotions. It's that simple.

There is nothing to forgive.
We merely have to play our part, seeing through this dream or nightmare...Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily merrily, life is but a dream...

Try this: Today, do not do anything that is arises from self interest!
In the evening, review the day, and observe how many times self interest actually occurred...quite a few!
Don't forgive yourself...smile and laugh, because you will do the same tomorrow!
As spiritual practitioners, this is part of the process.
Gradually selfishness will turn into selflessness.
We ARE all spiritual practitioners.

Row row, row your boat, gently down the stream
Merrily merrily merrily merrily, life is but a dream.

If we think there IS a wrong-doing (which is in the relative world), then forgiveness is merely an antidote, a temporary fix.
Tomorrow the same judgements will have to take place, and you will have to forgive again.
Better to see the nature of this so-called wrong-doing...its nature is ignorance!

You cannot control the actions of others, but you can control your own.

There is a story of a man who wanted to cover all the stony roads with leather to protect his feet...a teacher came by and suggested to him that it would be better to put the leather on his own feet, and then he could walk anywhere.
The leather is your spiritual practice.

If you still want to forgive, forgive yourself.:kiss:










(still on a break)

[Intranuclear]

What if life is a game instead and less of a dream?

[greybeard]

As spiritual knowledge (vibration ) increases-- perspective changes.
It seems that the level of perception is there for our advancement.
So at one level it is good to forgive then comes a step up to the next class, one class not being better just appropriate to the level of understanding.
Eventually there is the understanding that there is no one else to forgive.
In non-duality there is no other.
There is just awareness.
Eckhart Tolle said " There never was anyone there to do anything to you"
Comes down to the ego which is a separation device.
The enlightened sages see only consciousness-- they are egoless.
What looks out of the eyes sees the same thing looking back through the "perceived" others eyes.
The individual person is the illusion so there is no one to forgive
Its in 4 parts on u tube

Chris

this is a good video interview of Tony Parsons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1FBFX39uEs

[<8>]

Hi..

I think you hit the nail on this


When I realized I am not the mind, there was no effort to forgive myself and others if you so wish.
We are here to express ourselves and our mind plays out beautiful scenarios we can choose frome where we whant to go.

Does that make any sense..??

..8..

[RedeZra]

The enlightened sages see only consciousness-- they are egoless.


maybe enlightenment was the state of Adam and Eve before the fall

if so then they were individuals with personalities in this enlightened estate


but i agree that God or I AM is the One consciousness and the Only real Person or Personage

[RedeZra]

Their karmic load will be greater, unless they truly repent and work to exhaust that karma. I know this sounds unfair - that people can create so much suffering but still become enlightened - but it happened to Milarepa!



Milarepa did what his mother told him to do

there is a spiritual rule saying respect your father and mother

and so Milarepa did what his mother wanted


but he would later repent and lament

"In my youth I committed black deeds. In maturity I practiced innocence...." - Milarepa

[Hermite]

Thank you, Pie'n'eal. You always give me something to really contemplate. Today it is this: "Try this: Today, do not do anything that is arises from self interest!" So, what exactly is the difference between self interest and self preservation? Like I said, much to ponder.....

[greybeard]

The enlightened sages see only consciousness-- they are egoless.


maybe enlightenment was the state of Adam and Eve before the fall

if so then they were individuals with personalities in this enlightened estate


but i agree that God or I AM is the One consciousness and the Only real Person or Personage

When enlightenment occurs there is no individual left to claim it but persona continues.
The sage can truly say I am the totality all of it.
Thats I AM.
So at one level it is very appropriate to forgive and forget and to ask for forgiveness
The totality includes form and formless--- illusion, perceived separation, One.
So we must act in accordance with our own level.
Its beyond the minds ability to understand it.
Its incomprehensible but it (enlightenment/life) can be an ongoing "experience" in the eternal moment.
Words cant do it as they are concepts.
There are paradoxes.
Enlightenment/Oneness loves God and yet sees no separation.
Being in Love with LOVE.
Absolute unconditional love. (doesnt need an object to love it just is)
Chris

[RedeZra]

The enlightened sages see only consciousness-- they are egoless.


maybe enlightenment was the state of Adam and Eve before the fall

if so then they were individuals with personalities in this enlightened estate


but i agree that God or I AM is the One consciousness and the Only real Person or Personage

When enlightenment occurs there is no individual left to claim it but persona continues.
The sage can truly say I am the totality all of it.
Thats I AM.


I AM is before and after an individual achieves enlightenment

so perhaps persona shares the Personage of I AM after enlightenment

[greybeard]

The enlightened sages see only consciousness-- they are egoless.


maybe enlightenment was the state of Adam and Eve before the fall

if so then they were individuals with personalities in this enlightened estate


but i agree that God or I AM is the One consciousness and the Only real Person or Personage

When enlightenment occurs there is no individual left to claim it but persona continues.
The sage can truly say I am the totality all of it.
Thats I AM.


I AM is before and after an individual achieves enlightenment

so perhaps persona shares the Personage of I AM after enlightenment

Nasargadatta says "Ask--- Where you were before you were born?"

So enlightenment is not an achievement its the revealing of ones own true nature.
Yet it is by the grace of God, The seeming individual cant make it happen.
The big obstacle is the thought/belief that I am an individual--- that I am the doer.
Everything is just happening according to its (the events) potential.
Its not personal--- only the egoic thought claims I am doing this.
It actually sometimes happens before the thought occurs. (reflex action)
As said its beyond the understanding of the mind.

Chris

[cellardoor]

I do not accept Karma as a logical reality. Karma was introduced in to Hinduism by the Brahmanic religion, before then moral behaviour had nothing to do with the reincarnation cycle. Karma seems like Satan's plan to control the pyramid. To stop the slaves from becoming the masters. Good and evil according to the early Hindus are just a consequence of self reacting to the Illusion. Enlightenment was removing the Vail of Illusion. Not making up for past wrongs. Good Karma brings you good fortune perhaps you were born into a wealthy family so you deserve to be wealthy. So the poor selfs deserve to by poor. That is the nature of Fate? That is the nature of satans Illusion. Self worth. Self loathing.

[RedeZra]

So enlightenment is not an achievement its the revealing of ones own true nature.


i know that and you know that i know that ; )

where else would it be if not within

[RedeZra]

I do not accept Karma as a logical reality.

we reap as we sow

[Tony]

I hope this does not disturb anyone, it is not meant to. As we proceed along the path everything seems to become more alive, so when talking to others who do not practise, this may seem arrogant.
I've looked into it and it is not. When one has practised talking straight, it is not possible to merely gossip for entertainments sake.

It is said that one should not wake a sleeping person, but here on the forum, people are trying to wake up...no?

Modern teachers are very good at making ancient teachings available to people, but people should be aware that they too can go to the ancient teachings. These modern teachers are inspiring, but can leave people a little lost, as to what are the actual stepping stones. It can leave people feeling a little inadequate, which they are not.

These new teachers, themselves quote ancient teachings, usually from an absolute point of view, which is a huge leap from where we are now. It can be misleading.

If we follow a system we have to be sure that it is complete. Why go to a substitute when the original is available?

Verbal and written teachings are only the beginning of knowledge, the real knowledge and wisdom comes in the actual practice...one connects. This connection is not imaginary, as it comes with clarity, from one's own essence.

Of course we can all claim this, but what is said, has to explain the process so as to be for the benefit of all.

[Tony]

I do not accept Karma as a logical reality. Karma was introduced in to Hinduism by the Brahmanic religion, before then moral behaviour had nothing to do with the reincarnation cycle. Karma seems like Satan's plan to control the pyramid. To stop the slaves from becoming the masters. Good and evil according to the early Hindus are just a consequence of self reacting to the Illusion. Enlightenment was removing the Vail of Illusion. Not making up for past wrongs. Good Karma brings you good fortune perhaps you were born into a wealthy family so you deserve to be wealthy. So the poor selfs deserve to by poor. That is the nature of Fate? That is the nature of satans Illusion. Self worth. Self loathing.

Hello Cellardoor,

I'll have to gently disagree....! Cause and effect is a logical reality.
Karma is merely a word which means the results of our own reactions, which we hold on to in our minds. Whatever happens to you in the present, was created by your past.
Every thought that you have in your mind is karmically produced - the result of past action and reactions. These very reactions create the veil over the mind, which in turn maintains
this illusory creation.

There is a true being, and a mind-created being. They are the two truths, absolute and relative truth...one reflects the other, so both are of value. Our relative self IS the path to realising our true self.

[Tarka the Duck]

Eckhart Tolle said " There never was anyone there to do anything to you"

I do find this, for people who may be unfamiliar with this way of working, can be confusing. It may that, in his writing, Tolle clarifies this, but as it stands, there is a danger of sounding nihilistic.

In Buddhism, it isn't said that "nothing exists".

It is that the way in which we perceive existence that is at fault.

[Tony]

What if life is a game instead and less of a dream?

Good point.
Aren't games, pass times? Filling up time, as if time exists. That is the dream-world. But you are right, it can also be fun!!!!

[Tarka the Duck]

I do not accept Karma as a logical reality. Karma was introduced in to Hinduism by the Brahmanic religion, before then moral behaviour had nothing to do with the reincarnation cycle. Karma seems like Satan's plan to control the pyramid. To stop the slaves from becoming the masters. Good and evil according to the early Hindus are just a consequence of self reacting to the Illusion. Enlightenment was removing the Vail of Illusion. Not making up for past wrongs. Good Karma brings you good fortune perhaps you were born into a wealthy family so you deserve to be wealthy. So the poor selfs deserve to by poor. That is the nature of Fate? That is the nature of satans Illusion. Self worth. Self loathing.

I'm sure we'd all agree that it's not impossible that natural laws are distorted by society…

It may be that the "elite" of society - for example, perpetrators of the caste system - make use of the theory of karma as a social control mechanism. In fact, the Buddha spoke about this, stressing that we all have equal capacity to attain liberation.

But that abuse does not negate the truth of karma in any way.
Karma means "action", and is a consequence of our neuroses and mistaken view. The quality of an action is defined by the intention behind it.

I think that, as westerners, we have a tendency to confuse karma with sin/fate/destiny/morality, and there is more than a smattering of guilt and punishment that we mistakenly associate with it.

[cellardoor]

I do not accept Karma as a logical reality. Karma was introduced in to Hinduism by the Brahmanic religion, before then moral behaviour had nothing to do with the reincarnation cycle. Karma seems like Satan's plan to control the pyramid. To stop the slaves from becoming the masters. Good and evil according to the early Hindus are just a consequence of self reacting to the Illusion. Enlightenment was removing the Vail of Illusion. Not making up for past wrongs. Good Karma brings you good fortune perhaps you were born into a wealthy family so you deserve to be wealthy. So the poor selfs deserve to by poor. That is the nature of Fate? That is the nature of satans Illusion. Self worth. Self loathing.

Hello Cellardoor,

I'll have to gently disagree....! Cause and effect is a logical reality.
Karma is merely a word which means the results of our own reactions, which we hold on to in our minds. Whatever happens to you in the present, was created by your past.
Every thought that you have in your mind is karmically produced - the result of past action and reactions. These very reactions create the veil over the mind, which in turn maintains
this illusory creation.

There is a true being, and a mind-created being. They are the two truths, absolute and relative truth...one reflects the other, so both are of value. Our relative self IS the path to realising our true self.

What if Karma exists as an attachment to the Illusion. The Illusion draws back the soul due to the concept of Karma. But Karma it's self is an illusion as it exists parallel to the Illusion. Hence it is not a cosmic law it is Illusion permeating the soul. What if Karma was created within the Illusion making it a double Illusion what if Karma is the biggest post hypnotic suggestion known to humanity? Does morality exist within true being? Does true being reflect morality or is morality a result of the Illusion? True being is oneness. Karma divides, judges, justifies. They are not a reflection of each other in logical terms. It makes sense that Karma would be used in the realm of separation as a control philosophy. That a self meeting another self within separation would want to dominate the other self and make them there slave. Karma doesn't hold up to occam's razor.

[EnergyGardener]

pie'n'eal,

Thank you for the Thread, and all others, for the great discussion.

[RedeZra]

What if Karma exists as an attachment to the Illusion.

it is an illusion

but thnx to this illusion

we get to be

you and me

[Tony]

I do not accept Karma as a logical reality. Karma was introduced in to Hinduism by the Brahmanic religion, before then moral behaviour had nothing to do with the reincarnation cycle. Karma seems like Satan's plan to control the pyramid. To stop the slaves from becoming the masters. Good and evil according to the early Hindus are just a consequence of self reacting to the Illusion. Enlightenment was removing the Vail of Illusion. Not making up for past wrongs. Good Karma brings you good fortune perhaps you were born into a wealthy family so you deserve to be wealthy. So the poor selfs deserve to by poor. That is the nature of Fate? That is the nature of satans Illusion. Self worth. Self loathing.

Hello Cellardoor,

I'll have to gently disagree....! Cause and effect is a logical reality.
Karma is merely a word which means the results of our own reactions, which we hold on to in our minds. Whatever happens to you in the present, was created by your past.
Every thought that you have in your mind is karmically produced - the result of past action and reactions. These very reactions create the veil over the mind, which in turn maintains
this illusory creation.

There is a true being, and a mind-created being. They are the two truths, absolute and relative truth...one reflects the other, so both are of value. Our relative self IS the path to realising our true self.

What if Karma exists as an attachment to the Illusion. The Illusion draws back the soul due to the concept of Karma. But Karma it's self is an illusion as it exists parallel to the Illusion. Hence it is not a cosmic law it is Illusion permeating the soul. What if Karma was created within the Illusion making it a double Illusion what if Karma is the biggest post hypnotic suggestion known to humanity? Does morality exist within true being? Does true being reflect morality or is morality a result of the Illusion? True being is oneness. Karma divides, judges, justifies. They are not a reflection of each other in logical terms. It makes sense that Karma would be used in the realm of separation as a control philosophy. That a self meeting another self within separation would want to dominate the other self and make them there slave. Karma doesn't hold up to occam's razor.

You are absolutely right, in absolute terms.
Karma is an illusion, karma only exists our relative seeming reality world, which we are stuck in now!

This is where I have a slight problem with modern teachers, they only talk in absolute terms.
The two truth have to be seen as a unity. Every thing is of an illusory nature, they are impermanent, so are relatively true.
That very understanding that they are empty of any true existence is their absolute nature!

It is the same with a self, on investigation a self cannot be found ...that very knowing of not finding is our true essence, is essence!
As this essence is empty of any product, it is absolute purity. It can only be realised. It is an awareness of awareness, pure and simple = Occam's razor!

[cellardoor]

I do not accept Karma as a logical reality. Karma was introduced in to Hinduism by the Brahmanic religion, before then moral behaviour had nothing to do with the reincarnation cycle. Karma seems like Satan's plan to control the pyramid. To stop the slaves from becoming the masters. Good and evil according to the early Hindus are just a consequence of self reacting to the Illusion. Enlightenment was removing the Vail of Illusion. Not making up for past wrongs. Good Karma brings you good fortune perhaps you were born into a wealthy family so you deserve to be wealthy. So the poor selfs deserve to by poor. That is the nature of Fate? That is the nature of satans Illusion. Self worth. Self loathing.

Hello Cellardoor,

I'll have to gently disagree....! Cause and effect is a logical reality.
Karma is merely a word which means the results of our own reactions, which we hold on to in our minds. Whatever happens to you in the present, was created by your past.
Every thought that you have in your mind is karmically produced - the result of past action and reactions. These very reactions create the veil over the mind, which in turn maintains
this illusory creation.

There is a true being, and a mind-created being. They are the two truths, absolute and relative truth...one reflects the other, so both are of value. Our relative self IS the path to realising our true self.

What if Karma exists as an attachment to the Illusion. The Illusion draws back the soul due to the concept of Karma. But Karma it's self is an illusion as it exists parallel to the Illusion. Hence it is not a cosmic law it is Illusion permeating the soul. What if Karma was created within the Illusion making it a double Illusion what if Karma is the biggest post hypnotic suggestion known to humanity? Does morality exist within true being? Does true being reflect morality or is morality a result of the Illusion? True being is oneness. Karma divides, judges, justifies. They are not a reflection of each other in logical terms. It makes sense that Karma would be used in the realm of separation as a control philosophy. That a self meeting another self within separation would want to dominate the other self and make them there slave. Karma doesn't hold up to occam's razor.

You are absolutely right, in absolute terms.
Karma is an illusion, karma only exists our relative seeming reality world, which we are stuck in now!

This is where I have a slight problem with modern teachers, they only talk in absolute terms.
The two truth have to be seen as a unity. Every thing is of an illusory nature, they are impermanent, so are relatively true.
That very understanding that they are empty of any true existence is their absolute nature!

It is the same with a self, on investigation a self cannot be found ...that very knowing of not finding is our true essence, is essence!
As this essence is empty of any product, it is absolute purity. It can only be realised. It is an awareness of awareness, pure and simple = Occam's razor!


It is the same with a self, on investigation a self cannot be found ...that very knowing of not finding is our true essence, is essence!
As this essence is empty of any product, it is absolute purity. It can only be realised. It is an awareness of awareness, pure and simple = Occam's razor!

That is brilliant!
So why do Buddhists even bother with Karma? Wouldn't it be wise to strip away this concept of Illusion so we may gain more of awareness of simplicity?

[Tony]

I do not accept Karma as a logical reality. Karma was introduced in to Hinduism by the Brahmanic religion, before then moral behaviour had nothing to do with the reincarnation cycle. Karma seems like Satan's plan to control the pyramid. To stop the slaves from becoming the masters. Good and evil according to the early Hindus are just a consequence of self reacting to the Illusion. Enlightenment was removing the Vail of Illusion. Not making up for past wrongs. Good Karma brings you good fortune perhaps you were born into a wealthy family so you deserve to be wealthy. So the poor selfs deserve to by poor. That is the nature of Fate? That is the nature of satans Illusion. Self worth. Self loathing.

Hello Cellardoor,

I'll have to gently disagree....! Cause and effect is a logical reality.
Karma is merely a word which means the results of our own reactions, which we hold on to in our minds. Whatever happens to you in the present, was created by your past.
Every thought that you have in your mind is karmically produced - the result of past action and reactions. These very reactions create the veil over the mind, which in turn maintains
this illusory creation.

There is a true being, and a mind-created being. They are the two truths, absolute and relative truth...one reflects the other, so both are of value. Our relative self IS the path to realising our true self.

What if Karma exists as an attachment to the Illusion. The Illusion draws back the soul due to the concept of Karma. But Karma it's self is an illusion as it exists parallel to the Illusion. Hence it is not a cosmic law it is Illusion permeating the soul. What if Karma was created within the Illusion making it a double Illusion what if Karma is the biggest post hypnotic suggestion known to humanity? Does morality exist within true being? Does true being reflect morality or is morality a result of the Illusion? True being is oneness. Karma divides, judges, justifies. They are not a reflection of each other in logical terms. It makes sense that Karma would be used in the realm of separation as a control philosophy. That a self meeting another self within separation would want to dominate the other self and make them there slave. Karma doesn't hold up to occam's razor.

You are absolutely right, in absolute terms.
Karma is an illusion, karma only exists our relative seeming reality world, which we are stuck in now!

This is where I have a slight problem with modern teachers, they only talk in absolute terms.
The two truth have to be seen as a unity. Every thing is of an illusory nature, they are impermanent, so are relatively true.
That very understanding that they are empty of any true existence is their absolute nature!

It is the same with a self, on investigation a self cannot be found ...that very knowing of not finding is our true essence, is essence!
As this essence is empty of any product, it is absolute purity. It can only be realised. It is an awareness of awareness, pure and simple = Occam's razor!


It is the same with a self, on investigation a self cannot be found ...that very knowing of not finding is our true essence, is essence!
As this essence is empty of any product, it is absolute purity. It can only be realised. It is an awareness of awareness, pure and simple = Occam's razor!

That is brilliant!
So why do Buddhists even bother with Karma? Wouldn't it be wise to strip away this concept of Illusion so we may gain more of awareness of simplicity?

Brilliant right back!
That is precisely what to do.

Karma is merely cleaning the laundry (the tainted mind). Having arrived at one's true nature, that is only half the story. Bud meaning awake, dha means pure. The 'dha' is working with every situation, and not just reacting, merely letting be. It does not mean, doing nothing, as we still work in the relative realm, so it polite to reply to such intelligent questioning...(I really do mean that!). Gradually all claiming gets exhausted....washing done! Even the Buddha and Christ had to face their final trials. For us, it may take a little longer!!!

It is all about stripping away the concepts.

[cellardoor]

I do not accept Karma as a logical reality. Karma was introduced in to Hinduism by the Brahmanic religion, before then moral behaviour had nothing to do with the reincarnation cycle. Karma seems like Satan's plan to control the pyramid. To stop the slaves from becoming the masters. Good and evil according to the early Hindus are just a consequence of self reacting to the Illusion. Enlightenment was removing the Vail of Illusion. Not making up for past wrongs. Good Karma brings you good fortune perhaps you were born into a wealthy family so you deserve to be wealthy. So the poor selfs deserve to by poor. That is the nature of Fate? That is the nature of satans Illusion. Self worth. Self loathing.

Hello Cellardoor,

I'll have to gently disagree....! Cause and effect is a logical reality.
Karma is merely a word which means the results of our own reactions, which we hold on to in our minds. Whatever happens to you in the present, was created by your past.
Every thought that you have in your mind is karmically produced - the result of past action and reactions. These very reactions create the veil over the mind, which in turn maintains
this illusory creation.

There is a true being, and a mind-created being. They are the two truths, absolute and relative truth...one reflects the other, so both are of value. Our relative self IS the path to realising our true self.

What if Karma exists as an attachment to the Illusion. The Illusion draws back the soul due to the concept of Karma. But Karma it's self is an illusion as it exists parallel to the Illusion. Hence it is not a cosmic law it is Illusion permeating the soul. What if Karma was created within the Illusion making it a double Illusion what if Karma is the biggest post hypnotic suggestion known to humanity? Does morality exist within true being? Does true being reflect morality or is morality a result of the Illusion? True being is oneness. Karma divides, judges, justifies. They are not a reflection of each other in logical terms. It makes sense that Karma would be used in the realm of separation as a control philosophy. That a self meeting another self within separation would want to dominate the other self and make them there slave. Karma doesn't hold up to occam's razor.

You are absolutely right, in absolute terms.
Karma is an illusion, karma only exists our relative seeming reality world, which we are stuck in now!

This is where I have a slight problem with modern teachers, they only talk in absolute terms.
The two truth have to be seen as a unity. Every thing is of an illusory nature, they are impermanent, so are relatively true.
That very understanding that they are empty of any true existence is their absolute nature!

It is the same with a self, on investigation a self cannot be found ...that very knowing of not finding is our true essence, is essence!
As this essence is empty of any product, it is absolute purity. It can only be realised. It is an awareness of awareness, pure and simple = Occam's razor!


It is the same with a self, on investigation a self cannot be found ...that very knowing of not finding is our true essence, is essence!
As this essence is empty of any product, it is absolute purity. It can only be realised. It is an awareness of awareness, pure and simple = Occam's razor!

That is brilliant!
So why do Buddhists even bother with Karma? Wouldn't it be wise to strip away this concept of Illusion so we may gain more of awareness of simplicity?

Brilliant right back!
That is precisely what to do.

Karma is merely cleaning the laundry (the tainted mind). Having arrived at one's true nature, that is only half the story. Bud meaning awake, dha means pure. The 'dha' is working with every situation, and not just reacting, merely letting be. It does not mean, doing nothing, as we still work in the relative realm, so it polite to reply to such intelligent questioning...(I really do mean that!). Gradually all claiming gets exhausted....washing done! Even the Buddha and Christ had to face their final trials. For us, it may take a little longer!!!

It is all about stripping away the concepts.

So if the non being is the antithesis of relative being. The golden mean is becoming. God is evolving from God back to God. Via the dance of opposites. Turning lead into gold. Will there be a time when history stops and the dance becomes union? Nietzsche talked about cycles. Will there be an omega point of cycles? Will we achieve political equilibria? These are the questions I love to contemplate:)

[CdnSirian]

Thanks pie'n'eal for starting this lovely thread. The issue of forgiveness is a great challenge for me, yet whenever I read your expression of these issues I can contemplate my challenge with a peaceful feeling. Nice way to start a new day. :)

[Mulder]

My thoughts on forgiveness: the difference between Justice and Revenge - Justice is making the offender pay for their crime, Revenge is making them pay & pay & pay...

[Intranuclear]

Is the path of enlightenment encoded in the language of your choice?
Does one have to master the language to decode enlightenment?
Is that the first stepping stone?

[Tony]

Is the path of enlightenment encoded in the language of your choice?
Does one have to master the language to decode enlightenment?
Is that the first stepping stone?


Hello Intranuclear,

What you suggest is probably correct.
Being in a system simplifies communication, using a specific language. It helps in being more precise, and one can ask question and find answers. Therefore go deeper more easily.

Quite often on the forum we get caught up in talking at cross purposes, because of a different understanding of the language being used. Even in buddhism we have to be careful, as there are nine vehicles each using the same language but having more refined meanings.

My tradition is Nyingma, studying the subject of Dzogchen. It is very very precise. The real meaning is revealed in actual practice, beyond words.

At a lower level we can all talk together, mixing terminology. But as one goes further it's best to stay with one system, it simplifies matters. As one proceeds all systems seem not too distant. If I use the term Empty essence, it is the same as the very nature of God or God consciousness.
But to others it may be different.

When I go to teachings I do not talk to other students, only to the teacher in private. There seems to be group temperaments. Some are religious, some are philosophical while others a 'touchy-feely'.
They don't really mix.

[greybeard]

Its best to choose a path that suits your temperament---- or does the path choose you---- smiling.
Tony is right that in different teaching the same word has different meanings.
If a Master/Teacher is available it is best to stick with his advice and not compare notes with others.
Eckhart Tolle recommends just gathering together to listen to a cd after short meditation then no discussion after.
Advaita is my path and it is relatively simple but as in the case of being with the Buddha there can be a silent transmission of the energy of enlightenment
Ramana Maharshi was known for this.
Entrainment is one name for it.
Grace of the Guru can happen when the student is ripe.

Chris

[Tony]

However we while still in the relative world and we have to stand behind real justice!
Important video about Hollie Greige March 2nd.

WLUgCO9PTUc

[Solstyse]

You're whole theory of forgive and forget, can also be looked at as no accountability. Someone sexualy assaults my daughter maliciously. I am not going to just up and forgive. And how dare you tell me I'm supposed.

If everyone was good, and it was only the trivial stuff like gossip, lies, deceiving. It is easy to forgive, or as you say, not even get mad in the first place.

But a guy breaks into your moms house, kills her in the process of robbing her. You going to forgive, pat him on the back, and send him out the door to go to it too someone differents mom?

There is definitive evil in the world. You can forgive them, I will hold em accountable for their actions.

[greybeard]

No one escapes the consequence of their actions--- one way or another we reap what we sow.
Forgiving is very practical.
There is a lot of medical evidence that all negative emotions anger, frustration, lack of forgiveness create toxins in the body which can lead all kinds of illness.
Stress is one of the biggest killers and that comes from non acceptance of what is.
Acceptance in noway condones an evil act.
Non acceptance of what happened will not change the past.
Coming to terms with it is perhaps one way forward.
Then take every possible legal action that you can to bring the perpetrator to justice.
Thats just my opinion every one has to live with their own point of view.
Whatever works and sees one through the day.
If some one attacked me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot them, hopefully not killing them and rest easy with my conscience.

Chris

[Tony]

You're whole theory of forgive and forget, can also be looked at as no accountability. Someone sexualy assaults my daughter maliciously. I am not going to just up and forgive. And how dare you tell me I'm supposed.

If everyone was good, and it was only the trivial stuff like gossip, lies, deceiving. It is easy to forgive, or as you say, not even get mad in the first place.

But a guy breaks into your moms house, kills her in the process of robbing her. You going to forgive, pat him on the back, and send him out the door to go to it too someone differents mom?

There is definitive evil in the world. You can forgive them, I will hold em accountable for their actions.



Dear Solstsyse,

This is a very important point you bring up, and is echoed by a PM I received this morning.
The problem is how we balance anger, sadness and compassion within our own minds.
I like you, feel extremely angry at this and many other goings on in this world!

When saying “forgive and forget” was only mentioned as to what people might say. It is not my theory. Forgive and forget, is not what actually happens. The memory can fester for a long time.

So one's mind can find peace, it has to let go of all that disturbs it, this is not as ease as it sounds.

BUT, this does not mean that justice can be ignored. The whole point for all of us, in writing on this forum, is to drop by drop redress an imbalance in the world.

Another important point, is really understanding whether we are discussing the relative world or the absolute world. This is why I have a slight problem with new age gurus, who talk from an elitist absolute level, when we live in a relative world.

It is through the nuts and bolts of living in this relative-seemingly-real-world that we can find our way out. We do suffer, and it is right to be angry, then that anger (at the right time) can be turned into something positive.

Tony

[Solstyse]

No one escapes the consequence of their actions--- one way or another we reap what we sow.
Forgiving is very practical.
There is a lot of medical evidence that all negative emotions anger, frustration, lack of forgiveness create toxins in the body which can lead all kinds of illness.
Stress is one of the biggest killers and that comes from non acceptance of what is.
Acceptance in noway condones an evil act.
Non acceptance of what happened will not change the past.
Coming to terms with it is perhaps one way forward.
Then take every possible legal action that you can to bring the perpetrator to justice.
Thats just my opinion every one has to live with their own point of view.
Whatever works and sees one through the day.
If some one attacked me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot them, hopefully not killing them and rest easy with my conscience.

Chris

I can accept my mom is dead and not dwell on it, or let it eat me away, but I still don't think I have to forgive a criminal sociopath.
Forgiveness isn't straight black and white ( like anything is ) if there is remorse and change, one can forgive anything.

I don't like your last analogy, you notice how I never used myself in any of mine, always a child or mom.
It is easy to forgive ones transgressions against yourself.

[Solstyse]

You're whole theory of forgive and forget, can also be looked at as no accountability. Someone sexualy assaults my daughter maliciously. I am not going to just up and forgive. And how dare you tell me I'm supposed.

If everyone was good, and it was only the trivial stuff like gossip, lies, deceiving. It is easy to forgive, or as you say, not even get mad in the first place.

But a guy breaks into your moms house, kills her in the process of robbing her. You going to forgive, pat him on the back, and send him out the door to go to it too someone differents mom?

There is definitive evil in the world. You can forgive them, I will hold em accountable for their actions.



Dear Solstsyse,

This is a very important point you bring up, and is echoed by a PM I received this morning.
The problem is how we balance anger, sadness and compassion within our own minds.
I like you, feel extremely angry at this and many other goings on in this world!

When saying “forgive and forget” was only mentioned as to what people might say. It is not my theory. Forgive and forget, is not what actually happens. The memory can fester for a long time.

So one's mind can find peace, it has to let go of all that disturbs it, this is not as ease as it sounds.

BUT, this does not mean that justice can be ignored. The whole point for all of us, in writing on this forum, is to drop by drop redress an imbalance in the world.

Another important point, is really understanding whether we are discussing the relative world or the absolute world. This is why I have a slight problem with new age gurus, who talk from an elitist absolute level, when we live in a relative world.

It is through the nuts and bolts of living in this relative-seemingly-real-world that we can find our way out. We do suffer, and it is right to be angry, then that anger (at the right time) can be turned into something positive.

Tony

Ok, I am with you, maybe you didn't so much mean forgiveness, as not to hold a grudge?

I am glad you said we have to balance our anger, sadness, compassion, a lot of people think anger is bad and not a valid emotions. It is not a healthy emotion and you can't get hung up on it, but it is a mental reaction to a situation we are in, to help us understand and survive the situation better.

I am not sure what world you were implying in your first post, but I just assumed it was the real, tangible world in our faces right now.
Do we need to worry about forgiveness in the more spiritual/ absolute world?

[Tony]

Here he talks about the levels of forgiveness.

GmIOYB9Yn20

There is a difference between the actor and the action.
d-MiAzdbxuQ

[Tony]

We need to be skeptical !!!!

sc_eBdgkgiA

[greybeard]

No one escapes the consequence of their actions--- one way or another we reap what we sow.
Forgiving is very practical.
There is a lot of medical evidence that all negative emotions anger, frustration, lack of forgiveness create toxins in the body which can lead all kinds of illness.
Stress is one of the biggest killers and that comes from non acceptance of what is.
Acceptance in noway condones an evil act.
Non acceptance of what happened will not change the past.
Coming to terms with it is perhaps one way forward.
Then take every possible legal action that you can to bring the perpetrator to justice.
Thats just my opinion every one has to live with their own point of view.
Whatever works and sees one through the day.
If some one attacked me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot them, hopefully not killing them and rest easy with my conscience.

Chris

I can accept my mom is dead and not dwell on it, or let it eat me away, but I still don't think I have to forgive a criminal sociopath.
Forgiveness isn't straight black and white ( like anything is ) if there is remorse and change, one can forgive anything.

I don't like your last analogy, you notice how I never used myself in any of mine, always a child or mom.
It is easy to forgive ones transgressions against yourself.

I agree
I used me as I can only speak for myself.
I would only take action mentioned as a last resort and of course I would do the same to protect some one else.
I agree its easier to forgive actions against one self.

Regards Chris

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Less hair means more wisdom.
Boy you have a head start on the rest of us Tony--- Laughing.

Chris

[Tony]

Talking of laughing, it's good to feel light hearted!!!!

Anger makes us heavy hearted.

[Solstyse]

[QUOTE=greybeard;437233]No one escapes the consequence of their actions--- one way or another we reap what we sow.
Forgiving is very practical.
There is a lot of medical evidence that all negative emotions anger, frustration, lack of forgiveness create toxins in the body which can lead all kinds of illness.
Stress is one of the biggest killers and that comes from non acceptance of what is.
Acceptance in noway condones an evil act.
Non acceptance of what happened will not change the past.
Coming to terms with it is perhaps one way forward.
Then take every possible legal action that you can to bring the perpetrator to justice.
Thats just my opinion every one has to live with their own point of view.
Whatever works and sees one through the day.
If some one attacked me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot them, hopefully not killing them and rest easy with my conscience.

Chris

I can accept my mom is dead and not dwell on it, or let it eat me away, but I still don't think I have to forgive a criminal sociopath.
Forgiveness isn't straight black and white ( like anything is ) if there is remorse and change, one can forgive anything.

I don't like your last analogy, you notice how I never used myself in any of mine, always a child or mom.
It is easy to forgive ones transgressions against yourself.

I agree
I used me as I can only speak for myself.
I would only take action mentioned as a last resort and of course I would do the same to protect some one else.
I agree its easier to forgive actions against one self.

Regards Chris[COLOR="red"]

There is no one you care for more than yourself, you can imagine harm being done too?

[Tarka the Duck]

1.2 million Tibetans have been killed since the Chinese invaded their country. When speaking about that, the Dalai Lama is very clear about the benefits of separating the actor and the action.
He distinguishes between forgiving and forgetting, saying that in order to forgive, one can't forget: how can one forgive an action if one has forgotten what that action was? Forgiveness, for him, entails not losing compassion for the actor, who will have to face the consequences of their actions (karma).

As Tony said in the OP, Forgiveness does not mean taking no action.

Ghandi, Luther King, Mandela, the Dalai Lama...all these (and many others) have always spoken openly about the evils they are opposing - they have't forgotten them - but they have tried to rise above hatred and vengeful retaliation.

The anger that arises in us when we see cruelty, exploitation, injustice etc is potentially constructive - this is the seed of possible change.

I remember asking a lama about how to deal with this anger that I felt, and the answer was along the lines that yes, action should be taken when one perceives a harmful situation - but that one's action should be to stop the harm rather than hurt the person.

The important thing seems to be not to allow the hatred to overcome you.
In destroying the perpetrator, you could destroy yourself.

[Intranuclear]

Solstyse,

Hopefully we can briefly explore this subject without anger.
The scenario you described can take many forms. Imagine if you will:

1. Someone, intending harm to you, for whatever reason (revenge or fear or whatnot) drugs someone and instructs them to do the act you described.
What would you consider justice? Is it still simple? How far would you go to settle things and what would you sacrifice?

2. The person who does the deed was mentally unstable and abused their whole life.
Will executing him make you feel good? Would imprisoning him lift your sadness? Would that person even recognize the punishment being dealt?

3. The person doing the deed is very young. As he escapes, you get your gun and shoot him in the back.
Is justice done? Who will suffer longer?

Of course there are many hundreds of permutations that result in the same act you described, but perhaps the point was made.
I think that Tony perhaps also meant that regardless your actions, you must forgive yourself first.
If you had killed the perpetrator, you must forgive yourself, right?
Of course, the perpetrator may have had a family or friends, who may now desire revenge at any cost.
Do they know of forgiveness?

While nothing in these scenarios is real, the mental journey one simulates can feel just as real and the decisions you make can be just as lasting, if you, like an actor, make yourself believe that it is real.

I know that I may not survive the anger towards the perpetrator or anger towards myself if I were to act similarly.
Hard as it may be, forgiveness or forgetting may be the only way to survive such an experience.

After all, if you were God, you can re-arrange the universe and time such that history itself is meaningless, except the lessons God himself would have learned while playing around with temporal permutations.

[greybeard]

[QUOTE=greybeard;437233]No one escapes the consequence of their actions--- one way or another we reap what we sow.
Forgiving is very practical.
There is a lot of medical evidence that all negative emotions anger, frustration, lack of forgiveness create toxins in the body which can lead all kinds of illness.
Stress is one of the biggest killers and that comes from non acceptance of what is.
Acceptance in noway condones an evil act.
Non acceptance of what happened will not change the past.
Coming to terms with it is perhaps one way forward.
Then take every possible legal action that you can to bring the perpetrator to justice.
Thats just my opinion every one has to live with their own point of view.
Whatever works and sees one through the day.
If some one attacked me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot them, hopefully not killing them and rest easy with my conscience.

Chris

I can accept my mom is dead and not dwell on it, or let it eat me away, but I still don't think I have to forgive a criminal sociopath.
Forgiveness isn't straight black and white ( like anything is ) if there is remorse and change, one can forgive anything.

I don't like your last analogy, you notice how I never used myself in any of mine, always a child or mom.
It is easy to forgive ones transgressions against yourself.

I agree
I used me as I can only speak for myself.
I would only take action mentioned as a last resort and of course I would do the same to protect some one else.
I agree its easier to forgive actions against one self.

Regards Chris[COLOR="red"]

There is no one you care for more than yourself, you can imagine harm being done too?

Its an assumption that I care more for myself--- actually I would give my life for another.
Many have.
In spiritual terms I would die for God (thats the death of the ego)
Thats really another topic though.
Its almost impossible to go through life with out causing harm to another but then there is only one consciousness so you hurt yourself in that case.

Regards Chris

[Solstyse]

A couple of points then a question.
I like this thread :)
Ghandi, Luther King, Mandela, the Dalai Lama, might of all won their own individual battles, but they lost the war. The very religions they fought for, are being used to contol and fleece the masses. Depending on who you talk to, they are all just part of the mind conrol pattern of our current society.


1.2 million Tibetans have been killed since the Chinese invaded their country. When speaking about that, the Dalai Lama is very clear about the benefits of separating the actor and the action.

That sounds like him. And the actors are still killing and he is still forgiving.

So I ask you now, is there a limit to forgiveness? Is there a point where you have to draw the line and destroy the perpetrator?

[jessamy99]

Dear Pie'n'eal,

I decided to post this after reading your message. Thankyou for giving me confidence!!

---

I wanted to post this on your thread about forgiveness, but it is a bit personal.
I hope you don't mind me sending this privately, but you have started a thread on something I have tried to do for the past 25 years, not successfully. :(

My daughter was sexually abused every weekend from the age of one and a half to just over three. Then she told my mum - who told me.

The first thing I did when I heard about the abuse was to ask the local vicar to pray for him.
To my daughter, I said he was sick and couldn't help himself.

We then had six years of court cases where her father tried to get custody. She was made a ward of court so nobody could talk to her without his permission. So she had no therapy, and neither did I. I was her only help and I was alone, ignorant of all this. One person helped me. Michelle Elliot who runs Kidscape. She kept us both from going mad. She later said that this was one of the worst cases she had ever dealt with, with one of the best outcomes for the child concerned. But it has left me with very raw wounds inside. Still, after 25 years since I found out.

I vowed he would not hurt her again, and I achieved that with great difficulty.

Many of the professionals dealing with us were completely bent. I lost two and a half stone in two weeks, and lost many memories. I was really living on adrenaline from fear. He had threatened to kidnap her, and to kill us both. Things were done to my car in the night, time after time. How we survived was a series of miracles and help from the angels.

He was involved in some Satanic stuff. Once he killed a cat and put the blood over her!!
I got the information slowly over the years as she grew older. He had taken photos of her, naked.

At 13 she insisted on an hiv test. I had terrible trouble with the clinic and Michelle Elliot spoke to them in the end.
When she started her periods she was convinced she would get pregnant from him.
Our doctor had to convince her that sperm didn't live inside you for years.
The nightmare went on and on!!

Nothing happened to her father. But in the end, the High court agreed he had abused her and he was forbidden contact. This was when she was nine. This same day, my brother rang my mother and let slip he thought I had made it all up. He had told everyone I had made it up!!
My mother put him straight. I find this hard to forgive.

I have had no compensation, and neither has my daughter. I find this hard to forgive.

Apart from my mother, my family refused to discuss this with me.

My daughter wrote, painted, enacted, wrote more and I hope will be fine. She went to Cambridge for six years and is now a vet.

I am considering writing a book as I still have nightmares about the way I was treated in court for the initial 3 week court case. It was worse than petrifying!!

It wasn't pleasant and he abused her sexually, verbally and physically, and shut her in a dark cupboard, and terrorised her.

But he was so charming, kind, warm etc etc!!

When he dies, I believe the enormity of what he did to her will hit him.
If it doesn't, I believe he will be dealt with.
I am just glad that she has grown up "normal" and has a wonderful boyfriend.

I might just write a book about it and see if that helps my nightmares.
The things that happened to us after she told are absolutely unbelievable!!

Thanks for listening!!
With love,
Jessamy xxxx

[Solstyse]

[QUOTE=greybeard;437233]No one escapes the consequence of their actions--- one way or another we reap what we sow.
Forgiving is very practical.
There is a lot of medical evidence that all negative emotions anger, frustration, lack of forgiveness create toxins in the body which can lead all kinds of illness.
Stress is one of the biggest killers and that comes from non acceptance of what is.
Acceptance in noway condones an evil act.
Non acceptance of what happened will not change the past.
Coming to terms with it is perhaps one way forward.
Then take every possible legal action that you can to bring the perpetrator to justice.
Thats just my opinion every one has to live with their own point of view.
Whatever works and sees one through the day.
If some one attacked me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot them, hopefully not killing them and rest easy with my conscience.

Chris

I can accept my mom is dead and not dwell on it, or let it eat me away, but I still don't think I have to forgive a criminal sociopath.
Forgiveness isn't straight black and white ( like anything is ) if there is remorse and change, one can forgive anything.

I don't like your last analogy, you notice how I never used myself in any of mine, always a child or mom.
It is easy to forgive ones transgressions against yourself.

I agree
I used me as I can only speak for myself.
I would only take action mentioned as a last resort and of course I would do the same to protect some one else.
I agree its easier to forgive actions against one self.

Regards Chris[COLOR="red"]

There is no one you care for more than yourself, you can imagine harm being done too?

Its an assumption that I care more for myself--- actually I would give my life for another.
Many have.
In spiritual terms I would die for God (thats the death of the ego)
Thats really another topic though.
Its almost impossible to go through life with out causing harm to another but then there is only one consciousness so you hurt yourself in that case.

Regards Chris

It wasn't much of an assumption, I used your own words to form a logical conclusion. And as far as I can read you really didn't state otherwise yet.

I will show why I drew my conclusion.

You used the analogy of
" If some one attacked me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot them, hopefully not killing them and rest easy with my conscience."

"The i said something like. That is a poor analogy. All the ones I have been using so far have involved my daughter or mom."

You Say

"I used me as I can only speak for myself."

So I hope you can see where I was coming from. I used other people because I care for them more, thusly making it harder to forgive a transgression done against them.
And you jumped right to yourself for an example. You could of used anyone, didn't have to be a daughter or a mom.

Much love

[Tarka the Duck]

Ghandi, Luther King, Mandela, the Dalai Lama, might of all won their own individual battles, but they lost the war. The very religions they fought for, are being used to contol and fleece the masses. Depends on who you talk to, they are all just part of the mind conrol pattern of our current society.


Exactly...it depends on who you talk to. Talk to me, and I'll politely disagree...;)

[Solstyse]

Ghandi, Luther King, Mandela, the Dalai Lama, might of all won their own individual battles, but they lost the war. The very religions they fought for, are being used to contol and fleece the masses. Depends on who you talk to, they are all just part of the mind conrol pattern of our current society.


Exactly...it depends on who you talk to. Talk to me, and I'll politely disagree...;)

And that, is why we are talking. :)
YaY to open forms of communication where no one gets butt hurt.

[greybeard]

[QUOTE=greybeard;437233]No one escapes the consequence of their actions--- one way or another we reap what we sow.
Forgiving is very practical.
There is a lot of medical evidence that all negative emotions anger, frustration, lack of forgiveness create toxins in the body which can lead all kinds of illness.
Stress is one of the biggest killers and that comes from non acceptance of what is.
Acceptance in noway condones an evil act.
Non acceptance of what happened will not change the past.
Coming to terms with it is perhaps one way forward.
Then take every possible legal action that you can to bring the perpetrator to justice.
Thats just my opinion every one has to live with their own point of view.
Whatever works and sees one through the day.
If some one attacked me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot them, hopefully not killing them and rest easy with my conscience.

Chris

I can accept my mom is dead and not dwell on it, or let it eat me away, but I still don't think I have to forgive a criminal sociopath.
Forgiveness isn't straight black and white ( like anything is ) if there is remorse and change, one can forgive anything.

I don't like your last analogy, you notice how I never used myself in any of mine, always a child or mom.
It is easy to forgive ones transgressions against yourself.

I agree
I used me as I can only speak for myself.
I would only take action mentioned as a last resort and of course I would do the same to protect some one else.
I agree its easier to forgive actions against one self.

Regards Chris[COLOR="red"]

There is no one you care for more than yourself, you can imagine harm being done too?

Its an assumption that I care more for myself--- actually I would give my life for another.
Many have.
In spiritual terms I would die for God (thats the death of the ego)
Thats really another topic though.
Its almost impossible to go through life with out causing harm to another but then there is only one consciousness so you hurt yourself in that case.

Regards Chris

It wasn't much of an assumption, I used your own words to form a logical conclusion. And as far as I can read you really didn't state otherwise yet.

I will show why I drew my conclusion.

You used the analogy of
" If some one attacked me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot them, hopefully not killing them and rest easy with my conscience."

"The i said something like. That is a poor analogy. All the ones I have been using so far have involved my daughter or mom."

You Say

"I used me as I can only speak for myself."

So I hope you can see where I was coming from. I used other people because I care for them more, thusly making it harder to forgive a transgression done against them.
And you jumped right to yourself for an example. You could of used anyone, didn't have to be a daughter or a mom.

Much love

Point taken
Thanks with love
Chris

[gigha]

No one escapes the consequence of their actions--- one way or another we reap what we sow.
Forgiving is very practical.
There is a lot of medical evidence that all negative emotions anger, frustration, lack of forgiveness create toxins in the body which can lead all kinds of illness.
Stress is one of the biggest killers and that comes from non acceptance of what is.
Acceptance in noway condones an evil act.
Non acceptance of what happened will not change the past.
Coming to terms with it is perhaps one way forward.
Then take every possible legal action that you can to bring the perpetrator to justice.
Thats just my opinion every one has to live with their own point of view.
Whatever works and sees one through the day.
If some one attacked me with a knife and I had a gun I would shoot them, hopefully not killing them and rest easy with my conscience.

Chris

I can accept my mom is dead and not dwell on it, or let it eat me away, but I still don't think I have to forgive a criminal sociopath.
Forgiveness isn't straight black and white ( like anything is ) if there is remorse and change, one can forgive anything.

I don't like your last analogy, you notice how I never used myself in any of mine, always a child or mom.
It is easy to forgive ones transgressions against yourself.

I agree
I used me as I can only speak for myself.
I would only take action mentioned as a last resort and of course I would do the same to protect some one else.
I agree its easier to forgive actions against one self.

Regards Chris

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Less hair means more wisdom.
Boy you have a head start on the rest of us Tony--- Laughing.

Chris

We all die that is a fact.
death is a thing that happens.
we must all forgive ourselves
Life does not stop because you think you need a moment
breath.
R8GCc8OhTz8

[Solstyse]

we must all forgive ourselves

That is the one thing I just can't do.

[Tony]

So I ask you now, is there a limit to forgiveness?

You have the action and the actor, as Tarka said.

The true nature of all sentient beings is an enlightened nature.
That is absolute truth.
But while we are sentient, and not realised, we must live in the relative world of relative truth - things seem to be real.
While living in a seemingly real world, we live in ignorance of our true nature. So any action we do is done in ignorance.
An evil action has to be addressed, while at the same time respecting the true nature of the individual. So one is playing with the relative world and the absolute world.

We are talking here about the most profound truths...in the relative world, whatever the amount of negativity (or evil) that you give out, you will get back.
Similarly, the amount of love you give out will be the love you get back.
Our job is to constantly bring about a balance between the negative and positive in the relative world. By engaging in that, one enters the absolute world.

If you read any of my thread, I never react to negativity because there is always a positive side to it - it is always meaningful.
The Dalai Lama and other are spiritual practitioners. They are not soldiers.
I know of lamas who were in concentration camps for 25 years, and some suffered so much that they committed suicide by dashing their heads against the wall. Other lamas found that, due to the imprisonment, their practice was the best in their life.
It all depends on how we see life and deal with every situation: there are many levels.


Is there a point where you have to draw the line and destroy the perpetrator?

Yes. If there is a mad dog, you can chose to control it for its own benefit, and the benefit of others.

The important point about the OP was that, although we can develop righteous anger, in the end we have to deal with the effect it has on our own minds.
The universe cannot do that for us.
I speak personally. I could cry and scream for eternity about what is going on, but it would do no good. I could kill everyone I considered to be acting negatively, but I'd end up being the only one left on the planet - and then I'd have to kill myself as I'd committed such totally negative actions...;)

It's wonderful, knowing how absurd we can get.

Tony

[Solstyse]

So I ask you now, is there a limit to forgiveness?

You have the action and the actor, as Tarka said.

The true nature of all sentient beings is an enlightened nature.
That is absolute truth.
But while we are sentient, and not realised, we must live in the relative world of relative truth - things seem to be real.
While living in a seemingly real world, we live in ignorance of our true nature. So any action we do is done in ignorance.
An evil action has to be addressed, while at the same time respecting the true nature of the individual. So one is playing with the relative world and the absolute world.

We are talking here about the most profound truths...in the relative world, whatever the amount of negativity (or evil) that you give out, you will get back.
Similarly, the amount of love you give out will be the love you get back.
Our job is to constantly bring about a balance between the negative and positive in the relative world. By engaging in that, one enters the absolute world.

If you read any of my thread, I never react to negativity because there is always a positive side to it - it is always meaningful.
The Dalai Lama and other are spiritual practitioners. They are not soldiers.
I know of lamas who were in concentration camps for 25 years, and some suffered so much that they committed suicide by dashing their heads against the wall. Other lamas found that, due to the imprisonment, their practice was the best in their life.
It all depends on how we see life and deal with every situation: there are many levels.


Is there a point where you have to draw the line and destroy the perpetrator?

Yes. If there is a mad dog, you can chose to control it for its own benefit, and the benefit of others.

The important point about the OP was that, although we can develop righteous anger, in the end we have to deal with the effect it has on our own minds.
The universe cannot do that for us.
I speak personally. I could cry and scream for eternity about what is going on, but it would do no good. I could kill everyone I considered to be acting negatively, but I'd end up being the only one left on the planet - and then I'd have to kill myself as I'd committed such totally negative actions...;)

It's wonderful, knowing how absurd we can get.

Tony

I have to go to work, so don't think I am abandoning this thread.
Real quick
I have read all your posts, and I hope you don't think any of mine were ment to be negative.
Questioning maybe.
Maybe with a little anger behind the words, but never negativity.

[gigha]

we must all forgive ourselves

[QUOTE]That is the one thing I just can't doIs forgive myself.
For me it is very easy. Probably because of where i grew up
violence was second nature. As a kid you had to figure out that violence would not solve the problem
we can become what we have been led to believe
or you can believe in yourself the self is everything

[jessamy99]

Dear Pie'n'eal,

I was asked once why I still thought about the abuse, after all it was a long time ago...
For several reasons, the repercussions are still affecting us to this day.
For example, I had to stop work when my daughter was five.

She said two things to me that worried me then.
One was - Mummy, I am not a virgin am I?
The other was - I just don't want to live any more.

Her father snooped on us - the last time I saw him she was 14.
My car kept being tampered with, so we kept moving and changing cars.
It took about 6 weeks for our new address to filter through the court to him.
Then when my car was tampered with again, we moved again.

I returned to work when she was 18.
So, as a special needs teacher, my pension is pathetic now as I had time out of work.

Part of me wishes her father no ill.
But if he had touched her again, I might have killed him.
Living with the knowledge that I could feel that is also hard.

My family ostracised me for those years, and only now I am able to begin to build bridges with my cousins again.
The two people who knew what had happened, my mother and stepfather, have both died.
I felt so very alone, fighting this battle.

Any advice would be gratefully accepted. :)

With love,
Jessamy xxxx

PS. Of course I feel it was my fault - the guilt simmers always!!

[Tony]

Dear Pie'n'eal,

I was asked once why I still thought about the abuse, after all it was a long time ago...
For several reasons, the repercussions are still affecting us to this day.
For example, I had to stop work when my daughter was five.

She said two things to me that worried me then.
One was - Mummy, I am not a virgin am I?
The other was - I just don't want to live any more.

Her father snooped on us - the last time I saw him she was 14.
My car kept being tampered with, so we kept moving and changing cars.
It took about 6 weeks for our new address to filter through the court to him.
Then when my car was tampered with again, we moved again.

I returned to work when she was 18.
So, as a special needs teacher, my pension is pathetic now as I had time out of work.

Part of me wishes her father no ill.
But if he had touched her again, I might have killed him.
Living with the knowledge that I could feel that is also hard.

My family ostracised me for those years, and only now I am able to begin to build bridges with my cousins again.
The two people who knew what had happened, my mother and stepfather, have both died.
I felt so very alone, fighting this battle.

Any advice would be gratefully accepted. :)

With love,
Jessamy xxxx

PS. Of course I feel it was my fault - the guilt simmers always!!




Dear Jessamy,

Healing wounds.

Oh Buddha! This is a truly difficult subject to deal with.
Most of us have wounds physical and mental, and have to deal with it years later, I know I do!
Again the problem is how we balance anger, sadness and compassion within our own minds.

I do not think there is an answer. Maybe silent listening is all we can do.

We cannot put the past right. We can only deal with now, how we feel now.

Sometimes our feelings are stronger, sometime not so strong. Everyday I find a trigger in a prayer, where there is one line that reminds me of the past, and the effects I feel now....sadness.

If we look back, the past can seem like another life time. We move on and life changes. In fact from moment to moment our relative world changes. I am not the same personality as a year ago, or fifty years ago. But if I hold on to the past, then I am trying to keep a changing situation into a constant, when it is not, and suffer.

Everyone has a past, we come into the world with a nature. We then learn through nurture. These two elements have quite an effect on us. This physical world will never be perfect, the way we want it. The stories of a happy life are false and an illusion. However, realising that this up and down world is not total reality not perfect, help to release us from expectations. Then everything is as it is.

We meet, rub shoulders for a while, laugh, cry and move on. Nothing lasts. However there is that which never changes, which is beyond the relative situation. That is our absolute true pure essence. Have no doubt...well, a little now and again is OK.

Before we can embark on a spiritual path we have to become healthy human beings, meaning we accept how we are, and are ready to move on. We have no need to condemn ourselves. The whole reason we feel what we feel is because of ...love!

[jessamy99]

Dear Pie'n'eal,

Of course, my beliefs have helped me. I remember in court, my angel putting his finger to his mouth, advising me to say little when I was being insulted by the barrister. I also helped heal my daughter and encouraged her to see the good. One good thing is that nothing she will face in the future will be a patch on this time in her early childhood. If this was her challenge, she managed to work it out. She wrote books, comics, letters, painted pictures, put on puppet shows about safety for children, wrote poems. She was extremely bright and unstoppable.

But... Somehow it is still unresolved for me.

I don't know how to make it better.
My husband thinks I should write a book and make a fortune, that might help!! Laughing

With love,
Jessamy xxxx

[Tony]

laughing..... Knowing how to make things better, will probably be our prayer or mantra, until the very moment of enlightenment. Then will come the greatest smile .......it's been OK all along!

We just had to get over a few obstacles, that where never existed in the first place. Of course that does not help now!!!

If we just go back 16 incarnations, just think of all those terrible things that must have happened....that we cannot remember.?...!

[jessamy99]

Dear Pie'n'eal,

That is what has kept me sane!!
Keeping my focus on the larger picture.
I believe that a group of friends travel with us through our lives.
I also believe we have agreements on who will play the baddy or the supporter in the life to come.
But, when the perpetrator goes too far, when they plan in a calculated way how to hurt, bully, threaten and abuse
another person who is young, small, innocent and vulnerable,
i believe they will have a comeback.
That is why I asked the vicar to pray for him when I first heard of the abuse.

Also, meditation, knowing one is not the body, and knowing how to contact one's higher consciousness
all help. And teaching my daughter those sides of life have helped her.
I was extremely lucky to have met some extraordinary people in my youth.

Still, something is left undone.
Something has not been resolved.
I might just write a book and see if that is it.

Thankyou for listening!!
:)

With love, jessamy xxxx

[Tony]

I don't know if this will make any sense to anyone.

My mother was a difficult person to love, nothing was ever right. She could not help it,
it was the way she was, plus a tough up bring, being the youngest of ten siblings.
This put a lot of strain on the family, and we argued all the time.

It wasn't until the moment that I buried her ashes in my fathers grave, that I felt free, free of the first time, free of the whole family.

Somethings just cannot be put right!

Though I did the seven week bardo prayers for her ...laughing, it was easier to talk to her then!

Tony

[Solstyse]

Solstyse,

Hopefully we can briefly explore this subject without anger.
The scenario you described can take many forms. Imagine if you will:

1. Someone, intending harm to you, for whatever reason (revenge or fear or whatnot) drugs someone and instructs them to do the act you described.
What would you consider justice? Is it still simple? How far would you go to settle things and what would you sacrifice?

2. The person who does the deed was mentally unstable and abused their whole life.
Will executing him make you feel good? Would imprisoning him lift your sadness? Would that person even recognize the punishment being dealt?

3. The person doing the deed is very young. As he escapes, you get your gun and shoot him in the back.
Is justice done? Who will suffer longer?

Of course there are many hundreds of permutations that result in the same act you described, but perhaps the point was made.
I think that Tony perhaps also meant that regardless your actions, you must forgive yourself first.
If you had killed the perpetrator, you must forgive yourself, right?
Of course, the perpetrator may have had a family or friends, who may now desire revenge at any cost.
Do they know of forgiveness?

While nothing in these scenarios is real, the mental journey one simulates can feel just as real and the decisions you make can be just as lasting, if you, like an actor, make yourself believe that it is real.

I know that I may not survive the anger towards the perpetrator or anger towards myself if I were to act similarly.
Hard as it may be, forgiveness or forgetting may be the only way to survive such an experience.

After all, if you were God, you can re-arrange the universe and time such that history itself is meaningless, except the lessons God himself would have learned while playing around with temporal permutations.

Please don't mistake passion for anger.
I will answer you questions, but I don't think you read my post.
I was talking about a repeated offender a sociopath. Not an everyday person who got caught in a movie like scenario. But I will happily answer you questions :)

1. Justice would be the guy who druged the other guy, and sent him to harm me would be put on trial for the crimes he committed against the two of us. 2. Depending on the extent of the harm done, being drugged wouldn't be a viable excuse for some thing. But for the majority you can't hold the hapless 3rd party at fault he was drugged and obviously not of his right mind. It is simple. I will end one with this ( cause I know you are going to go there ) if the 3rd party killsme, it wouldn't matter what I would do.

2. How mentally unstable are you talking. Are we talking handicapped, or "I'm depressed all the time". What type of abuse, what type of crime. No you know it doesn't really matter, what type. I have to say 99% of the people in the world know the difference between right and wrong. Would I execute him, no I don't believe in executions. Would it lift sadness, no but it might ease a burden. Serve a purpose. Would he recognize punishment? I don't know you are very vague with you imaginary person.

3. Once a again, How young, yes it matter. What deed? Once being overly vague, trying to lure me into something.If he killed my daughter, and he isn't crawling away, yes I shoot him, yes justice is done. And he won't suffer long, I would probably shoot him again.

Of course, the perpetrator may have had a family or friends, who may now desire revenge at any cost.
Do they know of forgiveness?

Forgiveness for the guilty. That's almost funny, but it is much more sad.

Sincerely
Me.

[Solstyse]

So I ask you now, is there a limit to forgiveness?

You have the action and the actor, as Tarka said.

The true nature of all sentient beings is an enlightened nature.
That is absolute truth.
But while we are sentient, and not realised, we must live in the relative world of relative truth - things seem to be real.
While living in a seemingly real world, we live in ignorance of our true nature. So any action we do is done in ignorance.
An evil action has to be addressed, while at the same time respecting the true nature of the individual. So one is playing with the relative world and the absolute world.

We are talking here about the most profound truths...in the relative world, whatever the amount of negativity (or evil) that you give out, you will get back.
Similarly, the amount of love you give out will be the love you get back.
Our job is to constantly bring about a balance between the negative and positive in the relative world. By engaging in that, one enters the absolute world.

If you read any of my thread, I never react to negativity because there is always a positive side to it - it is always meaningful.
The Dalai Lama and other are spiritual practitioners. They are not soldiers.
I know of lamas who were in concentration camps for 25 years, and some suffered so much that they committed suicide by dashing their heads against the wall. Other lamas found that, due to the imprisonment, their practice was the best in their life.
It all depends on how we see life and deal with every situation: there are many levels.


Is there a point where you have to draw the line and destroy the perpetrator?

Yes. If there is a mad dog, you can chose to control it for its own benefit, and the benefit of others.

The important point about the OP was that, although we can develop righteous anger, in the end we have to deal with the effect it has on our own minds.
The universe cannot do that for us.
I speak personally. I could cry and scream for eternity about what is going on, but it would do no good. I could kill everyone I considered to be acting negatively, but I'd end up being the only one left on the planet - and then I'd have to kill myself as I'd committed such totally negative actions...;)

It's wonderful, knowing how absurd we can get.

Tony

I am so ecxited, you used the word Yes, to directly answer a question. I am beginning to learn that the closer you get to spiritual fulfillment the less you are able to use words like Yes, and No.
:)

[Lettherebelight]

we must all forgive ourselves

That is the one thing I just can't do.

I'm with you on this one....it's just so hard to do! Why?

[Galaxy22]

People have so many more things to forgive themselves for today, than they did 30 years ago. The agents of social control have been busy, and have won the support of most all, at least in terms of health and safety issues, anger management, anything addictive, sexual indiscretions, not picking up dog poop, anything at all, that is where peoples minds are...that is what they have become so stupid.

[Solstyse]

we must all forgive ourselves

That is the one thing I just can't do.

I'm with you on this one....it's just so hard to do! Why?


Too cut right to the heart of it. We live every second with ourselves, we see and judge ( at least I do ) almost every little minute detail of my daily routine We know everything we did, and worse yet everything we didn't do.
Did you do anything today to help a fellow human being? If not do you forgive yourself for it? As OP said, do you have to even be forgiven?
Or, a slightly different slant, I have a goal in mind in life, I am trying to get to a particular destination. ( I say I but we all are ) I fail more than i win.
Sometimes I forgive myself sometimes I don't.
But I never fully absolve myself from anything.
That would be irresponsible.

:)

[jessamy99]

I don't know if this will make any sense to anyone.

My mother was a difficult person to love, nothing was ever right. She could not help it,
it was the way she was, plus a tough up bring, being the youngest of ten siblings.
This put a lot of strain on the family, and we argued all the time.

It wasn't until the moment that I buried her ashes in my fathers grave, that I felt free, free of the first time, free of the whole family.

Somethings just cannot be put right!

Though I did the seven week bardo prayers for her ...laughing, it was easier to talk to her then!

Tony

Dear Tony,

Today is my birthday and I am celebrating having been given the gift of life in this beautiful world.
Just writing to you, on here, has made me feel so much better!!
I want to thank you for listening.
I know it isn't easy.

With love, light and laughter to you all!!
Jessamy xxxx

[Tony]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU[!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU[!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU! DEAR JESSAMY HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!!!!!


:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

Love,
Tony

[jessamy99]

No secrets on here then.....
Laughing!!


Thankyou Tony!! You have a lovely singing voice!!

With love,
Jessamy xxxxx

[jessamy99]

Here is a poem my daughter wrote when she was at primary school...

With love, Jessamy xxxx

Black and White.

Black is my shadow
On the brightest day
It falls in front
To show me my way.

Black is my fear
An old friend of mine
It appears darker still
When laughter's light shines.

As I walk from the shop
Through the darkened arcade
I aim for the car park
That's bright with no shade.

As it is with my feet
So it is with my heart
I aim for the moments
When laughter will start.

And when fear returns
To stand black, in my way,
I'll remember, shadows are darkest
On the brightest day.