Request to Review Process on Channeled Message Threads

[blufire]

Yeah . . . . I’m gonna be really negative and hateful with this post . . . . or some will say.

A few questions and comments to Bill and the Mods regarding channeled messages:

Day after day, these long posts and threads are started with only the “message” from the channelers or channeled. There is little to no commentary or reason why the Avalon member posted the thread. There is little to no following or supporting posts other than to say how wonderful it (the message) is . . . unless . . .we negative, mean members chime in and challenge.

To me, this is as if Greg Giles, Mike Quinsy, Sheldon Nidle, Steve Beckow, GFL, Ashtar and all the others are some type of “honorary members” . . . . are they? We, the members of Avalon, went through an application process and were therefore invited and accepted into the forum.

These long threads and posts with basically only dialogue from a non-member, with little to no critical thinking or discussion from legitimate members, I feel should not be allowed. These individuals (channelers and channeled) have not gone through the application process.

If these channeled threads were started with ensuing critical thinking and discussion and supporting documentation with the members reasoning then that would be different. But rarely is this done in these type threads . . . .and usually from us “negative hateful” members.

What if a Avalon member, day after day, posted threads with only material from say Clif High and Half Past Human or the Atticus forum or material from a member that had been unsubscribed? This I have a feeling would not be allowed and removed immediately and the member chastised. How are these threads with basically only material from the channeled non-members any different?

Bare minimum, I feel, the channeled messages should all be on only one thread instead of several threads being started almost everyday. On that thread only the link to the message be posted so that if a member wants to read that message he or she will need to follow the link to that website and that the member posting the link to the message be required to state compelling dialogue on why they suggest Avalon members go to the website to read the ‘message’.

I do not feel I am being unreasonable with this request or suggestions. I would like to respectfully ask that the mods review how the channeled messages are posted and that, if they deem, changes be made.

Thank You and I sincerely and deeply apologize for what I’m sure will be a massive mess for a few days.

[Tarka the Duck]

I feel you've been very fair and constructive with your comments...I fully concur ;)

[Siren Master]

I couldn't agree more. I only add that coming across the channeled stuff just pisses me off when I'm looking for scholarship and evidence. grrrr

[Carmen]

If free choice to read whatever is offered on this forum is taken away I'm out of here!!

[WhiteFeather]

There are many links in this forum to view. Some Channeled Messages Give Some Of Us Hope and Motivation to make it through these hard times it seems. Some posts resonate with me, and some don't. The posts i like i read and enjoy, the posts i dislike i do not read and discard. Anyways here's a great thread and introduction By Bill Ryan.

By Bill Ryan: Dear New Avalonian,

Welcome to the Project Avalon Forum. We sincerely hope you enjoy your stay.

This forum is a little different in a number of ways:
First of all you had to be invited to get here!
A lot of the forum is hidden to non-members (including this message). There are some readable areas, but most require you to be a member to not only see them, but post as well.
Membership is tiered. This means that the more you post and the longer you've been a member, the more you can do.
Community Groups can now be found on the top menu under Community > Groups.
What happened to the original Avalon Forum?

As happens with many forums, what we now call 'Avalon 1' descended into an uncomfortable degree of chaos. When this happens in a public place (whether physical or virtual), it's always the actions of individuals that perpetrate that.

Much of the time - but not always - this is deliberate. What we can say is that a number of members there were not at the same spiritual and intellectual level and understanding as we hope and believe you are - hence your invitation.

A way forward needed to be found that allowed the message and vision that this forum represents to be preserved and supported by members who are fully in support of all the principles we espouse.

What is that Message and Vision?

In creating this new forum, we're encouraging all members who've been invited here to:
Start or participate in community projects that will radiate out to the members' communities - or
Post information and participate in regards to awakening; spirituality; healing humanity; galactic and earth changes; '2012' (whatever that may mean!); geopolitics; new science; hidden history; ETs and disclosure; what we are not being told by those who might wish to control us - and much else.
Please be proactive in real time in the true spirit of Avalon. Many of you already do, of course. However, we'd like you all to share more about these activities as it will lead to others becoming awakened.

So...

Please do us and this forum proud - and show us the spiritual beings we know you to be.

Please always remember that this is in essence a private party. We value quality, not quantity. We don't aspire to be like Above Top Secret or Godlike Productions (and there are good reasons for that). This private party is a place of learning, awareness, respect, intelligence, community and fun.

We're delighted to have accepted your membership application on the basis of what we believe we understand about you.

Please understand that if we come to understand other aspects which were not apparent when we first started to get to know you, then we may politely ask you to leave.

Please see this clarifying post for a little more about this. As of 19 January 2011, we're regarding all new Avalonians as PROVISIONAL MEMBERS, who we look forward to upgrading after your first few posts once we have a good idea who you are, what your values are, and how you communicate and relate to others.

If we do ask you to leave, we intend no disrespect - and do not intend conflict. It would just be that the moderator team, working closely together, would have reached the decision that the invitation may have been a mistake and that you may be more satisfied communicating and contributing elsewhere.

A note about the one aspect of the forum which is more controversial than any other: that of channeled messages. The moderator team, fully supported by myself, have made the decision to post a disclaimer on threads on that particular subforum.

My personal opinion, which is fairly well-informed, is that many channeled messages offer many nice words and plenty of saccharine hope - but little of substance and in all probability (I'm afraid) little that is real.

There are deep, dark games played here, and there is much deliberate deception both on the physical (electromagnetic) and astral levels. We encourage intelligent inquiry - and discourage proselytizing and anything that smacks of promoting belief systems of any kind.

And in all that, we're all committed to discovering the truth. My personal purpose is to support that in happening - wherever that leads.

*******

To see the rest of the forum and enable you to post, simply reply to this thread as acknowledgement.

The system will detect the reply. Within 10 minutes, your title will automatically change to Avalon Junior Member and you will be activated.

And for those of you who were long-time senior members of the original Avalon, you'll probably find that you will be manually upgraded to Senior Member by one of the team in due course. I would also encourage you to re-post here your best threads from Avalon 1 so that the new forum may enjoy them. We welcome that.

Once again, welcome aboard. Post your reply, and we'll see you on the other side.

Bill Ryan and the Project Avalon Forum Team

[Borden]

I agree that it might be better to have a 'channeled information' thread. That way, when I look at the recent threads, if I see what section it's in I can think 'okay, not my cup of tea' and move on. I wouldn't want to see that stuff banned though. Whatever I think of it, there are people here who are interested in it, and it would be unfair to not allow it ... I agree though that it's annoying to find it in threads that you didn't realize would be 'channeled'.

Blufire, you don't sound negative or hateful! I fear I may be seen as one of those negative people too, by some who've read some of my posts, but the truth is I'm interested in things like UFOs, and astral projection in particular. That doesn't mean that I'll buy anything though, and personally I feel what I've seen of this channeled stuff to be not worth my time. In its own section though I really couldn't complain about it.

Borden

(p.s. I realize that there is already a 'channeled information' section, I was just referring to the bleed-over, when you find it where you weren't expecting it.)

[Earth Angel]

i dont understand why its such a problem.......its clearly marked as channeled , there is a huge disclaimer by Bill Ryan when you open any of them.......exercise your right not to open them........there are plenty of posts on here that people don't want to read, that' s why we have the list of new threads and you pick what interests you. Why people feel the need to chime in with ' negative or mean" comments is beyond me.......if you don't like channeled info, IGNORE them.

[modwiz]

Wow, three women wanting to squelch freedom of expression rather than just ignoring it. Impressive. :sarcastic:

That was just the first three posters. I'm sure the gender blend will equal out, and I will just butt out.

I would like to see less of threads like "woman brain dead after being tasered". I would never ask for them to be hidden or reviewed though. Must be an imbalance somewhere.

Toodles to all of you scholarship and evidence folk, I'll just go off and use both of my lobes.

[Sebastion]

I concur and will add that I have nearly canceled my membership to this forum on a number of occasions. I find it utterly incredible that anyone could continue to subscribe to the lies posited every week by the galactic federation of liars! Last week their message stated worldwide arrests coming within "several days" and it's already been 1 week with no substance. Before that we had upwards of 300 people going for a joyride! As anyone can see, that was a bold faced lie as well and with that, the poison keeps getting posted.

They all have their own websites and it's just as easy to go to those as it is this one. If people want to keep reading lies, they are free to go there where they will have willing support for it. I for one strongly resent their lies and propaganda being foisted upon this forum!

[9eagle9]

The confusion and anger results from the implication that 'its freedom of speech' and members have a right to post their channeled messages as their opinons. Its not even their opinion, its sourced in 2nd or 3rd party. But we have to treat it as if it relates personally from them even though its just another ideal. If someone wants to behave like a actor in a story line I'm not sure why we have to be careful to treat them authentically? If someone wants authentic respect then be able to seperate yourself from the message.

I find that members who are capable of managing themselves treat each other's orginal thought processes respectfully regardless if there is agreement or not. Its when we get 2nd and 3rd party sources like videos and channeled messages and we start to critique the material its treated as if were are critiquing the poster. These chronic posters seem to think what they are posting is their opinion , and should be treated as such. it's not. Its obvious that is an opinion that came from outside of them.

You must treat my Opinion with respect.

Well its not even your opionion. It's someone elses that you are relaying. This is how this stuff drug into all other threads, they think its their opinion and they repeating a 2nd or 3rd party sourced opinion. You can't talk about anything outsideof channeled messages without quoting from a story line provided from the channeled message department, which is obvious, and then upset becuase it wasn't treated respectfully as their personal opinion.

If someone wants to wrap up their self identity in their beliefs and the belief is critiqued, they will of course always feel like they are being personally insulted. Who HAS to be responsible for that?

The anger arises from people who are unable to separate themselves from whatever story they are peddling into versus the people who understand that the story is not the person.

I personally don't expect that all material posted on the forum come from forum members. But rationally speaking we should be able to seperate the two.

If a person is insisting they are the story, and we are critiquing the story...whose is responsible for their feelings when the story is critiqued.

Good post Blufire.

[Eric J (Viking)]

LOL ... if you go to the far right of the threads presented here, it clearly states what topic it encompasses ?!!

We all have a choice, either to read or not to read...is that simple enough !

Jeeeeze whatever next !!

viking

[mountain_jim]

Somehow I am reminded of the following Frank Zappa Tune :)

(who also was quoted as stating - Government is the Entertainment division of the military-industrial complex.):



What will you do if we let you go home,
And the plastic's all melted,
And so is the chrome?
WHO ARE THE BRAIN POLICE?
What will you do when the label comes off,
And the plastic's all melted,
And the chrome is too soft?

WAAAAHHHHHH!
I think I'm gonna die . . .
I think I'm gonna die . . .
I think I'm going to die . . .
I think I'm going to die . . .
I think I'm going to die . . .
I think I'm going to die . . .
I'm gonna die . . .
I think I'm going to die . . .
I think I'm gonna die . . .
I'm going to die . . .
I think I'm gonna die . . .
I think I'm gonna die . . .
I think I'm gonna die . . .
Going to die!

WHO ARE THE BRAIN POLICE?

What will you do if the people you knew
Were the plastic that melted,
And the chromium too?
WHO ARE THE BRAIN POLICE?



as someone who has realized great personal growth and value from the channeled material of Seth, Law Of One, and some other sources, I would personally feel this forum was less worthwhile to me if all 'channeled' material was banned.

I could see the value in one thread per source, and I can understand folks not appreciating channeled content posted in the other forums as if it were news, etc.

And then how do we categorize content, such as that from Kettler, which is claimed as 'received from ET/ED's via telepathy', and not 'channeled' as the receiver is conscious and not using a scribe, or so the difference has been stated by some?

[gripreaper]

Most of these channeled messages are copied and pasted and imbedded right into the "New" Thread without even a comment. What is wrong with putting all of Greg Giles channeled messages in one thread and having the direct link to where it originally is?

This makes perfect sense to me. There are way too many threads already on this site and it's frustrating to have to wade through and click on new threads which do not disclose what's in them.

I have no problem with channeled material per se, i just don't like the bleed over into the other sections of the forum.

[etm567]

Yeah . . . . I’m gonna be really negative and hateful with this post . . . . or some will say.

A few questions and comments to Bill and the Mods regarding channeled messages:

Day after day, these long posts and threads are started with only the “message” from the channelers or channeled. There is little to no commentary or reason why the Avalon member posted the thread. There is little to no following or supporting posts other than to say how wonderful it (the message) is . . . unless . . .we negative, mean members chime in and challenge.

To me, this is as if Greg Giles, Mike Quinsy, Sheldon Nidle, Steve Beckow, GFL, Ashtar and all the others are some type of “honorary members” . . . . are they? We, the members of Avalon, went through an application process and were therefore invited and accepted into the forum.

These long threads and posts with basically only dialogue from a non-member, with little to no critical thinking or discussion from legitimate members, I feel should not be allowed. These individuals (channelers and channeled) have not gone through the application process.

If these channeled threads were started with ensuing critical thinking and discussion and supporting documentation with the members reasoning then that would be different. But rarely is this done in these type threads . . . .and usually from us “negative hateful” members.

What if a Avalon member, day after day, posted threads with only material from say Clif High and Half Past Human or the Atticus forum or material from a member that had been unsubscribed? This I have a feeling would not be allowed and removed immediately and the member chastised. How are these threads with basically only material from the channeled non-members any different?

Bare minimum, I feel, the channeled messages should all be on only one thread instead of several threads being started almost everyday. On that thread only the link to the message be posted so that if a member wants to read that message he or she will need to follow the link to that website and that the member posting the link to the message be required to state compelling dialogue on why they suggest Avalon members go to the website to read the ‘message’.

I do not feel I am being unreasonable with this request or suggestions. I would like to respectfully ask that the mods review how the channeled messages are posted and that, if they deem, changes be made.

Thank You and I sincerely and deeply apologize for what I’m sure will be a massive mess for a few days.

Well, for starters, your statements are not all correct. Steve Beckow does not ever channel anything. Did you think he does?

ETM

[9eagle9]

We don't have choice really. You have very well preserved system occuring. WE can stay out of the channeled messages thread but the channeled messages thread won't stay in it's alloted forum.

It's no different from the people who can't manage their emotions regarding their celebrity gurus and drag those personal dramas that have nothing to do with them or even the forum and splash into every conversation.

People have to take some responsiblity for their attachments .

The stories from space folks get hurt when their fables are not well recieved in more logical or academic discussions of shared reality and then create a big drama because their 2nd and 3rd party stories and belief systems aren't adapted to intellectual discussion and are rationally treated as such. So then a great ruckus is created by the story believers who perceive their opinon is being besmirched when everyone realizes its not even your opinion at all, just more recycling from the channeled messages forums. Because you have decided to believe in every fable that drifts out from the direction of Saturn we have to treat this belief as if its really an actual living entity --with respect. But you don't grant other people the same.



LOL ... if you go to the far right of the threads presented here, it clearly states what topic it encompasses ?!!

We all have a choice, either to read or not to read...is that simple enough !

Jeeeeze whatever next !!

viking

[etm567]

Wow, three women wanting to squelch freedom of expression rather than just ignoring it. Impressive. :sarcastic:

That was just the first three posters. I'm sure the gender blend will equal out, and I will just butt out.

I would like to see less of threads like "woman brain dead after being tasered". I would never ask for them to be hidden or reviewed though. Must be an imbalance somewhere.

Toodles to all of you scholarship and evidence folk, I'll just go off and use both of my lobes.

The men are lining up behind you to do the opposite of you, though.

Thought police, anyone?

I can't answer 9eagle9, I'll get myself into trouble.

It does seem to me as if the people who detest channeled material could just stay out of it. And for those of you who don't understand how the forum works, the threads don't really "bleed" into other areas. They will show up on "today's posts" or "new posts," but just because they are new or from today. They are, usually, as far as I've seen, in the forum for channeled messages. There are even some self-appointed police who spend time making sure that all the channeled messages are there in the right forum, and nowhere else. :)

How about we set up a form for non-channeled messages? And then, to the OP, you can stay there and be sure nobody will post anything channeled? Or, no, I don't really mean that, obviously, it was a very lame attempt at humor. But seriously, if you don't like reading channeled material, why click on the thread at all? Don't you have the power of choice to click or not to click? With all due respect, you seem to have the power to criticize and criticize and criticize...;

ETM

[Tarka the Duck]

Hello Modwiz!


Wow, three women wanting to squelch freedom of expression rather than just ignoring it. Impressive.

What has gender got to do with this? :confused:

How is cutting and pasting "freedom of expression"? :confused:

[Eric J (Viking)]

We don't have choice really. You have very well preserved system occuring. WE can stay out of the channeled messages thread but the channeled messages thread won't stay in it's alloted forum.

It's no different from the people who can't manage their emotions regarding their celebrity gurus and drag those personal dramas that have nothing to do with them or even the forum and splash into every conversation.

People have to take some responsiblity for their attachments .

The stories from space folks get hurt when their fables are not well recieved in more logical or academic discussions of shared reality and then create a big drama because their 2nd and 3rd party stories and belief systems aren't adapted to intellectual discussion and are rationally treated as such. So then a great ruckus is created by the story believers who perceive their opinon is being besmirched when everyone realizes its not even your opinion at all, just more recycling from the channeled messages forums. Because you have decided to believe in every fable that drifts out from the direction of Saturn we have to treat this belief as if its really an actual living entity --with respect. But you don't grant other people the same.



LOL ... if you go to the far right of the threads presented here, it clearly states what topic it encompasses ?!!

We all have a choice, either to read or not to read...is that simple enough !

Jeeeeze whatever next !!

viking

Of course you have a choice eagle....just dont visit any thread which are tagged in the channel section...its that easy...surely...

We all have choices...

viking

[gripreaper]

Well, for starters, your statements are not all correct. Steve Beckow does not ever channel anything. Did you think he does?

ETM

No, but anyone who wants to read channeled information can go to Steve Beckow's website and read to their hearts content all the channeled information available on the internet that they want. It's all compiled there.

So tell me again, why Avalon needs those third party sourced material imbedded into posts all over this forum without even a comment?

[Billy]

Yes to read or not to read that is the question. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. It seems quite obvious that many members of Avalon do not resonate with channeled messages but for some very strange reason that i cannot fathom. They still read them, which upsets them even more. Martyr's to the cause if you ask me.

There is a channeled section a disclaimer and most important a choice of what resonates and what does not resonate. everything is covered and no need to change anything. If a channeled message gets posted on the wrong thread, It is soon noticed by the Mods and moved to the correct thread.

There are quite a few threads here that i would never waste my energy looking at. But i would never think of going inside that thread and leaving negative comments. Each to their own. Live and LET live.

peace

[Bo Atkinson]

Sound's like a solution except that the inevitable 3rd party nature of all quotes, or articles, are reposted from somewhere or other. The originator of each specific quote is not present to defend or elaborate.

Imaginatively, here is my solution to all objections mentioned above:

Let members block other specific members. Provide individual poster blocking for any key word including any avatars. So that each member can generate a personal user interface. (Further below is a second, easier idea to try).

Why keep channel blogs, etc? .......

(Besides providing softly worded mantras messages for people wanting that polarity for to recover from all the hard core, action packed war of ideas.)

We are struggling for sort of an egalitarian road mapping project, to see where earth turned wrong. This entails histories we can not access directly. As some scientist's mention, if you can't touch it personally, it might not be real. Certain histories are unpleasant, while providing random dots that fit into related study.

2nd idea-suggestion... Possibly an easier idea, is to provide subscription check boxes for each forum to be displayed (on user interface or forum skin?).

I think the integrated nature of this forum provides more opportunity for understanding our world and life situations. There are already forums devoted for materialist-skeptics who nowadays appear extremely boxed inside a match box.

Instant solution: Each member, do not use the "latest posts" page. Instead, carefully go through the forum of choice, only.

[mountain_jim]

Well, for starters, your statements are not all correct. Steve Beckow does not ever channel anything. Did you think he does?

ETM

No, but anyone who wants to read channeled information can go to Steve Beckow's website and read to their hearts content all the channeled information available on the internet that they want. It's all compiled there.

So tell me again, why Avalon needs those third party sourced material imbedded into posts all over this forum without even a comment?

I can tell you that I for one appreciate being able to come to Avalon and in one folder, read the channeled material from various sources that has been updated since I was last there and the valued comments from my fellow Avalonians, with all their distinctive points of view. A one-stop shop, as it were.

Does not mean I believe it, but it helps me keep abreast of what is being spread throughout the 'new-age' community at a given time.

I also watch the network nightly news sometimes, which is hopelessly corrupt propaganda, just to see and be informed concerning what the current propaganda programmers are up to.

[9eagle9]

The process behind the channeled messages flithering here and yon quoted from my other thread which also relates to the programming of channeled messages.

Out in the common population those with very rigid Christian values have enough sense to know their opionons are not going handled respectfully if they start peddling them in a forum for atheists. Allegedly 'non aware' people are aware of this but our self proclaimed enlightened people can't get it.

Or rather they are getting something from it.

A form of abusive self gratification.

"Often times the core value of channeled messages carries a subtle message that we humans are victims or that we are martyrs. And those who very endoctrinated in this sort of thing will inappropriately post, strictly because someone will not treat it with respect therefore re-establishing for them, their subconscious role, as a martyr. They are looking for an abuser to re-establish their identity. that is manipulation for self gratification. They are then abusing their own belief system......this is a means of getting away with abuse because its so subtle but nearly everyone has had a relationship with a person who does something like that.

YET....there is message that even though they are abusign their own beliefs , and themselves, there's this expectation that everyone else should respect it.

For people who are attempting to move away from humans desecrating themselves this pattern is viewed with some distaste. Abusing themselves in public, attempting to establish situaitons with prejudice where they wil be treated as martyrs. It's role playing. Which goes along with programming. "

[Dennis Leahy]

blufire, that is a unique twist: uninvited entities sneaking into the forum via the side door - through members.

I suspect that Bill and the admin/mod team would agree that, at times, the Avalon forum seems to be overrun with channeled material, and that having a spot for channeled material (with a big disclaimer banner) is not enough.

I offered a possible solution that I think is a fair compromise, allowing the material to remain but not become dominant. My suggestion was here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41078-Sheldan-Nidle-just-ate-my-cat-&p=432898&viewfull=1#post432898).

I understand that there could be crossovers into the main forum. For example, a channeled message predicts some specific event at a specific time and is correct - then it becomes newsworthy and could be the source for a thread in the General Discussion area.

I do understand how these channeled messages are, in a way, an antidote for gloom-and-doom. It is FUN to read about the cabal getting spanked or arrested or sent back to Source for a deconstruction, disinfection, and soul parts used in cosmic recycling. It is ENTERTAINING to envision fleets of invisible ships, zipping through the troposphere, firing away from another dimension and frying the chips in nuclear warheads. And, some of the messages are full of empathy and encouragement, and of course, that feels good.

From what some other members have written, and from my perspective, what may be most irritating is a sense that the channeled messages massage and pacify those who choose not to act, but rather, to wait for a savior. Our desire to snap our fellow members out of a holding pattern leads to frustration. Admittedly, it's our frustration, and we have to own it, but there are days when the forum is all a-flutter with channeled material - seemingly displacing non-channeled threads.

(For those whose major objection is a "call to inactivity"): We cannot force anyone to action (helping humanity, or even helping community, or even helping themselves with something as simple as a garden) if that person prefers inaction. It doesn't matter whether the inaction is supported by watching TV, getting entangled in addictive drugs or behaviors, or being content to wait for Jesus, Maitreya Buddha, or other ETs to swoop down and save the day. Those who have chosen not to act (yet) are not ready to act (yet.)

For those that don't want it, it would be good not to be confronted with an overwhelming dose of channeled material. For those that want it, is the approach that I suggested in my link above acceptable?

Dennis

[Alan]

I found the following vBulletin mod that would seem to allow a user to identify entire forums to be ignored for that person. I think that would make everyone happy:

http://www.lampwrights.com/showthread.php?t=84

[Selene]

Bingo, 9Eagle9. The issue exactly:


We don't have choice really. You have [a] very well preserved system occurring. WE can stay out of the channeled messages thread but the channeled messages thread won't stay in its allotted forum.

Dennis Leahy, I think your proposed solution here http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41078-Sheldan-Nidle-just-ate-my-cat-&p=432898&viewfull=1#post432898 is an excellent one:


I would propose that Avalon retain the channeled material. (Hey, I've seen many many threads on Avalon that were not channeled material, where my discernment has the needle on my BS meter pegged into the red zone.) I'd like to propose that the Channeled Information section be:

1.) moved out of the "Spirituality" sub-forum
2.) a new subforum be created, "Channeled Information", just for channeled material
3.) the new Channeled Information subforum be removed from the "feed."
4.) implement the feature for icons on the forum main page, indicating that a subforum has new content

And I’m personally disappointed to see that those who post channeled material do so indiscriminately, without any of the commentary or analysis that others here have rightly pointed out is the raison d’etre for Project Avalon to begin with. It amounts to a free ride for other websites using PA/s bandwidth; why not simply provide the links?

Furthermore:

From Your Friendly Interplanetary Legal Department: Posting material from other websites in its entirety, without comment or excision, is in violation of international copyright laws, and exceeds any “fair use” safe harbor.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html




Fair Use

The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use:

• quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment;

• quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s observations;

• use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied;

• summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report;

• reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy;

• reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson;

• reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports;

• incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”

None of these are applicable to the wholesale reposting of these channeled websites here. They are a hijacking of Avalon’s hospitality and goodwill, as well as its status as a publication.

Thank you very, very much, BluFire for starting this thread. Just because we may choose to ignore something doesn’t mean we need to allow it to run amok here without restraint. Posts can – and should –be subject to reasonable community regulation.

Cheers,

Selene

[gooty64]

Also Steve Beckow will sit with a channeler and ask questions directly to the channel via the channeler.



Well, for starters, your statements are not all correct. Steve Beckow does not ever channel anything. Did you think he does?

ETM

No, but anyone who wants to read channeled information can go to Steve Beckow's website and read to their hearts content all the channeled information available on the internet that they want. It's all compiled there.

So tell me again, why Avalon needs those third party sourced material imbedded into posts all over this forum without even a comment?

[Eric J (Viking)]

Again, I see no reason to go into lengthy dialogue ... it's simple.

CHOICES CHOICES CHOICES ... we all have freewill ... choose what you read ... A simple question deserves a simple answer....if we all start chucking stuff underneath the carpet, so to speak...

THEN WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE FOLKS !!...Think about it ... what are the control systems trying to do wIth the internet.?

IMHO its a ridiculous request to make...we are all here trying to sift through truth and I'm afraid that includes channeling. I always discern and some messages resonate and some do not...its all part of the game folks...get real.

I have made my point...so be it.

viking

[cellardoor]

"Request to review fascist requests on general discussion section".

[percival tyro]

I find supposed ET? dialogue very condescending...." My dears"...... "Loved ones".... The messages don't ring true, about as clear cut as the photo's. They also need spelling lessons.

[onawah]

When you look at the number of times that certain channeled messages are viewed, it seems clear ( unless I don't understand how the forum works) that there are a LOT of non-members reading the messages.
I think certain members have (intentionally or unintentionally) created a place on Avalon (the channeled info sub-forum) where fans of the likes of Sheldan Nidle, Greg Giles, Mike Quinsey, etc. can come and conveniently read all the newest messages of the day, all in one place.

No doubt the fact that Avalon is known as a forum where Conspiracy Theorists post and "vet" information makes these channeled messages seem more credible simply because they've been posted here. ("Well, I read it on Project Avalon, so it must be true!")
That may be an exaggeration, but I would imagine the disclaimer is not likely to have much influence on these particular kinds of readers.

In the long run, I think the effect it is having on Avalon overall is to reduce the element of credibility and worthiness
And to attract a very different kind of new member, while repulsing the kinds of new members which have made Avalon a great forum for truth seekers over the years.

I agree it would be good if the OP offers at least a sentence or two as to why they thought the message was worth posting.
I have been guilty of skipping that step myself, but I will make a point of including some personal input each time I post a channeled message.

One of the reasons I have objected to the volume of generic sounding messages that have been posted on the channeled info sub-forum is that they detract from the kinds of messages which I have found to contain credible, grounded, helpful information.
Which are far fewer in number and are not issued daily with clockwork regularity.

[giovonni]

i do enjoy reading these PA2 Forum thread scrummages ...

and i also enjoy reading (some) of the messages in the channeled column ...

But sometimes too many words (from both side) deflect from what is most important here...

Creating a much different (life friendly) reality for oneself to live in...

Decisions Decisions... :tsk: Always either this or that ... :pout: Isn't life wonderful :dizzy:

nay ... :tongue1:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/302288_322474377767044_294421993905616_1555145_1923801118_n.jpg

hmmm... :bounce:
http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix3/Ovnienlaprestoria5.jpg

[Sidney]

I have a very simple suggestion. If every single channeled post, simply said CHANNELED! Before the thread title. then the reader can clearly see that the post is channeled.
The way they are now, where-as they are posted in the Channeled section of the spirituality section, unless the THREAD is labeled as such, the reader has no way of knowing its a channeled post without opening it.

I personally, don't normally connect with these, because I feel that they CAN be misleading, and giving false hope. But that is not the issue here, I believe in freedom of expression, and the channeled messages hurt no-one. But I agree that it is annoying to open a post and start reading, to THEN figure out that it is "channeled".

[Sebastion]

Seems to me people have the right to be told the truth above all else. To knowingly posit information on this forum from sources which have no history of credibility is flat out wrong! I have no problem whatsoever with channeled messages per say. But I have a major problems with being lied to and watching others being lied to as well.

[Earth Angel]

it says channeled in the far right of the list of todays posts...........all posts show you on the far right side where it is coming from ie General Discussion, Conspiracy, UFO, alternative medicine, etc.......its not hidden from anyone and as mentioned before there is always someone who will shout out to the mods if a channeled message is on the wrong forum....there are so many topics of discussion on this website that many would count as ludicrous, I just don't understand why all this fuss about channeled messages......no one is freaking out about whether we all agree aliens are real, and asking them to be shut off in a corner somewhere.




I have a very simple suggestion. If every single channeled post, simply said CHANNELED! Before the thread title. then the reader can clearly see that the post is channeled.
The way they are now, where-as they are posted in the Channeled section of the spirituality section, unless the THREAD is labeled as such, the reader has no way of knowing its a channeled post without opening it.

I personally, don't normally connect with these, because I feel that they CAN be misleading, and giving false hope. But that is not the issue here, I believe in freedom of expression, and the channeled messages hurt no-one. But I agree that it is annoying to open a post and start reading, to THEN figure out that it is "channeled".

[Sidney]

it says channeled in the far right of the list of todays posts...........all posts show you on the far right side where it is coming from ie General Discussion, Conspiracy, UFO, alternative medicine, etc.......its not hidden from anyone and as mentioned before there is always someone who will shout out to the mods if a channeled message is on the wrong forum....there are so many topics of discussion on this website that many would count as ludicrous, I just don't understand why all this fuss about channeled messages......no one is freaking out about whether we all agree aliens are real, and asking them to be shut off in a corner somewhere.




I have a very simple suggestion. If every single channeled post, simply said CHANNELED! Before the thread title. then the reader can clearly see that the post is channeled.
The way they are now, where-as they are posted in the Channeled section of the spirituality section, unless the THREAD is labeled as such, the reader has no way of knowing its a channeled post without opening it.

I personally, don't normally connect with these, because I feel that they CAN be misleading, and giving false hope. But that is not the issue here, I believe in freedom of expression, and the channeled messages hurt no-one. But I agree that it is annoying to open a post and start reading, to THEN figure out that it is "channeled".


OMG- Learn something every day. I never noticed that before. Gawd I must have ADD (without the H)lol. I seriously never noticed that, maybe blufire never noticed either.?????? So I take back my suggestion. LOL

My new suggestion, Look in the column to the right of the post, it says it is from the channeled section so you can skip it if you dont want to look at it.

Thank you EarthAngel for pointing that out!!!!!! (for the record, the messages don't bother me at all, I was just trying to help bluefire find a easier way to avoid what she prefers not to see.

[Little Ishta]

What brought me to the Avalon Forum was the different categories that it has. This place is very versatile. And that is what I love. There is something for everyone. Everyone is different. Everyone has their own interest. So what if there is a channel sub forum?? I do not understand the point of this thread. If you don't like it.... don't read that section. I happen to enjoy some of those channels. And yes there are some I do not like. But then again its to each their own.
By the way there are some sections that I do not agree with but I do not go around making threads about it because I know and am aware that there are others here that enjoy them. We do not always have to like and enjoy all threads on this forum. Just enjoy the ones that you like and participate in the discussion. That is what a forum is. A place to share your feelings, sharing news, sharing information etc....

[DoubleHelix]

I would propose that Avalon retain the channeled material. (Hey, I've seen many many threads on Avalon that were not channeled material, where my discernment has the needle on my BS meter pegged into the red zone.) I'd like to propose that the Channeled Information section be:

1.) moved out of the "Spirituality" sub-forum
2.) a new subforum be created, "Channeled Information", just for channeled material
3.) the new Channeled Information subforum be removed from the "feed."4.) implement the feature for icons on the forum main page, indicating that a subforum has new content

I see a simple solution to the percieved problem being discussed here.

Perhaps we could remove any material posted in the "Channelled" section from appearing in the "Newest Posts" live feed. That way it doesn't flood the board, nor detract from other more pertinent topics (imo). For those who are that way inclined towards channeled material, the section would still remain intact and highly accesible.

[Eric J (Viking)]

Excellent info here....but beware!

Enter at your own risk this is channeled material !!

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41567-Never-blindly-accept-any-received-information-without-question-

viking

[onawah]

I don't think it's quite that simple.
For example, say that some forum members were constantly posting some information on the forum that is from dangerous blackop sources, designed to mislead and perhaps even plug readers into some kind of synthetic AI that could eventually lead to mind control.
(Some Avalon members believe that is the case with some of these generic channeled messages, and I, for one,think they could be correct.)
Or information that is unverifiable, and is actually designed only to sell books and make profits for the channelers, also creating a community base of fans who act in a facist manner, reporting members who begin asking intelligent questions, ridiculing, chastising and abusing them in a very condescending manner.
(That is what some of our new members have reported goes on behind the scenes with some of these channelers, such as Sheldan Nidle.)
So if that kind of info was being regularly posted on the regular Avalon forum, what do you suppose would happen?
I think the members and the Mods and probably even Bill Ryan would be up in arms, and the people who were posting that kind of stuff would be getting a whole lot of flak from the other members, until they finally desisted, or were asked to leave the forum.
Whether the intention of those members was to mislead, misinform, recruit, make some financial gain, or not is beside the point.
The point would be that Avalon was being misused and perverted to causes that are antithetical to it's true purpose.
Many of us believe that that is what is happening on the Channeled Information subforum.
The disclaimer is not enough to prevent the unfortunate results of this ongoing flood of what I consider to be thinly disguised disinfo.
And so many of us think that some other action is necessary, which is no different than what would be requested if this kind of thing were happening on any other part of Avalon.

What brought me to the Avalon Forum was the different categories that it has. This place is very versatile. And that is what I love. There is something for everyone. Everyone is different. Everyone has their own interest. So what if there is a channel sub forum?? I do not understand the point of this thread. If you don't like it.... don't read that section. I happen to enjoy some of those channels. And yes there are some I do not like. But then again its to each their own.
By the way there are some sections that I do not agree with but I do not go around making threads about it because I know and am aware that there are others here that enjoy them. We do not always have to like and enjoy all threads on this forum. Just enjoy the ones that you like and participate in the discussion. That is what a forum is. A place to share your feelings, sharing news, sharing information etc....

[marielle]

Just because something is "channeled", is it any less credible than information from an "insider" or Fulford or anyone else who tells us things that we cannot possibly prove one way or another? I use my internal resonance filter for *everything*. Some of the most valuable things I've ever read are channeled. One example is the "The Law of One" or any of the books by Robert Cox (he says he received his knowledge through divine inspiration).

In any case, vBulletin use to have a feature where you could turn off certain folders to appear or not in your own live feed (Today's Posts). I used it once to turn off the born-again religion folder for an economics forum that I belong to. Perhaps the Mods could research this feature so those who are so offended by the channeled material can remove it via their settings.

[Feritciva]

Dear Feritciva,

In your endless and passionate search for truth you've been to a lot place. You've been to highs, you've been to lows. You've met & interacted with very advanced souls with priceless info, you've also met with people full of hate & prejudice. You've been in forums where you feel like home, you've been in forums where it felt like being in a military front under heavy fire. Then one day you've come across with Project Camelot interwievs. Some were fascinating, by time you felt like Bill & Kerry were your good friends whom you've never met. Then you've found Project Avalon forum, you became a member. Mostly you preferred to read & evaluate, many times you found yourself shaking your head with admire & gratitude.

And then something happened. First you've tried to ignore it. Then it became a outbreak! You began to see this thing - without exception - every day you've entered to the forum. Every day there was a new call for control, for "government". Every day somebody began to write with open negativity, sarcasm and rage about forum content. You began to feel "pure ego" frequency. You have wondered if these people are really grown-ups? If they really know what free will is? If they honestly are "seekers".

And at one point you began to realize that Project Avalon forum has changed. Something changed in the chemistry, in the frequency of the forum. Do not try to label it "good" or "bad", just realise that this forum predominantly wants something else than you do. An apple is not worse or better than a banana, they simply carry different nutritional ingredients.

So my dear Feritciva, at last you've realized it's time to move for you. You've had very valuable info in this forum, you've realized there are some very positive human beings - before you lose this valuable frequency/taste in your mind and begin to get angry day by day to petty mindness you observe in this forum (and remember, this is petty mindness to YOU, in their own unique paths, other people's reactions are perfectly normal and necessary), move on. Go & seek somewhere else.

Best regards,
Your HigherSelf

[Kimberley]

it says channeled in the far right of the list of todays posts...........all posts show you on the far right side where it is coming from ie General Discussion, Conspiracy, UFO, alternative medicine, etc.......its not hidden from anyone and as mentioned before there is always someone who will shout out to the mods if a channeled message is on the wrong forum....there are so many topics of discussion on this website that many would count as ludicrous, I just don't understand why all this fuss about channeled messages......no one is freaking out about whether we all agree aliens are real, and asking them to be shut off in a corner somewhere.


Earth Angle thank you for writing what I would have written...especially "no one is freaking out about whether we all agree aliens are real, and asking them to be shut off in a corner somewhere."

And I want to add that no one is freaking out about dream interpretations?

And no one has mentioned this part yet.... (and please don't shoot the messenger, me )... We are all channelers folks!!

And we all do it in multiple ways, although we use different words to describe the various method's of channeling. And most humans do not recognize when or that they are channeling.

I am not going to give this topic much attention although I really felt I was to take a few minutes with it. Musicians channel music, Artists channel their art, writers channel their writing, Albert Einstein was given science information, etc and the list goes on. Not all musicians , artists, or writers use the word "channel" however most of them will admit to being taken over and having been "downloaded" their creation. And I would be remiss to not mention all the supposedly channeled messages in the bible..."The angel spoke to me...etc" or "God said to him...) etc...

I see the real debate here is really more about GFL messages in particularly vs Edgar Casey or Law of One etc... I happen to love the Matthew messages for example.

Anyway just thought I would and the Kimberley 2 cents...

And I will end by saying that the on going debate about what is "right" or "wrong", who is lying or who is not, who is "good" or "bad" is getting very very boring to me and I am going to do my best to steer clear of it. I see us as all one...

Much love to us all always in all ways!!!

[Ilie Pandia]

I've seen a lot of the members here posting full copy pasted text from outside source with 0 (zero) comments of their own.

I'd like to remind those of the posting rules:

----------------

6. POSTING EXTERNAL MATERIAL

a. When sharing outside material with the forum, please do it in the form of links with summary paragraphs. Posting long passages (i.e. more than a few short paragraphs) of outside text, regardless of relevance, is prohibited.

b. The summary of the content of the link should be a paragraph of your own words and / or with a single-paragraph excerpt from the text itself.

c. “Naked” links, i.e. links without summary text, should be avoided, as most members do not have the time to blindly research such links.

-----------------

Some other ideas:

Posting full articles does adds un-necessary load to the database server, storage disk, bandwidth and backup space. And occasionally causes copyright issues that we need to deal with.

Channeled materials should be posted in their dedicated section, and indeed if we find them in other parts of the forum they will be moved there.

If you don't "like" a particular forum member go to: Settings (top-right of the page). In the new page, on the column on the left find and click on "Edit Ignore List". Use the instructions on the screen to add there whomever you like. (In case you're wondering I don't think you can ignore the mods :)).

The plug-in suggested before (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41541-Request-to-Review-Process-on-Channeled-Message-Threads&p=437432&viewfull=1#post437432) to ignore forums and thread is not compatible with this version of of vBulletin. If it were we would have had to first check how it would impact the forum performance.

No, not everything can be posted on Avalon under the "freedom of speech" flag. This has been addressed before by Bill and other members. (See spam, flooding, forum sliding, signal over noise ratio and disinformation).

[Solstyse]

As long as it stays in the proper forum ( Channeling ) I don't see a problem with it.

There are new people to the forum and the community as a whole. Maybe they haven't formed their ideals yet, maybe they find these messages helpful.

I haven't really read many, if any of them, so i can't speak as too people just cut and pasting, with no comment. I would hope our fellow forum members, would think more of us to at least include an proper introduction. But I also don't think we need a complete bio.

We shouldn't hold Channeling to any different standard than UFO's or Spirituality.
A channeler can prove his message, just as much as someone can prover their god. Or just as much as someone can prove that you can bend time with really powerful magnets.

Not saying I believe in it one way or the other. But that is not the point of this post.

I edited because something about Channelers and followers really bug me. When they post there channeled message, or what ever, in a Different, maybe Real News thread.

I.E. Earthquake in Virginia 5.2.
You know your going to get on there and there will be at least 2 Youtube videos of a channeler talking about how some ET's were in that area of Virgina at the time, and caused it.

That irritates me.

[Sabrina]

Like some of the others on here I cannot understand the fuss at all. I value freedom of speech like others here, and thought we were a pretty intelligent lot. I cannot see any problem with filtering out what you are or aren't interested in. We're all grown ups? I always harp back to the fact that, for me, the non-channeled (?) Charles threads were the biggest waste of time. Easy - I just gave up reading them. Some non-channelled material doesn't resonate with me and some channelled info. does. And vice versa. I don't think we're here to be fenced in are we? Enough of that in the outside world.

[TelosianEmbrace]

What I would like to read more of is threads started by Blufire talking about what she is passionate about, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Blufire, you have a wealth of information and experience about self sufficiency, emergency and power supplies, and many related topics, from memory. Being entrenched within society at this point in my life I would really enjoy hearing about the life you lead and the precautions you have taken in order to ride out any possible future difficulties. Perhaps you could post them in the sub forum "Living off the Grid".

[WhiteFeather]

Somehow I am reminded of the following Frank Zappa Tune :)

(who also was quoted as stating - Government is the Entertainment division of the military-industrial complex.):



What will you do if we let you go home,
And the plastic's all melted,
And so is the chrome?
WHO ARE THE BRAIN POLICE?
What will you do when the label comes off,
And the plastic's all melted,
And the chrome is too soft?

WAAAAHHHHHH!
I think I'm gonna die . . .
I think I'm gonna die . . .
I think I'm going to die . . .
I think I'm going to die . . .
I think I'm going to die . . .
I think I'm going to die . . .
I'm gonna die . . .
I think I'm going to die . . .
I think I'm gonna die . . .
I'm going to die . . .
I think I'm gonna die . . .
I think I'm gonna die . . .
I think I'm gonna die . . .
Going to die!

WHO ARE THE BRAIN POLICE?

What will you do if the people you knew
Were the plastic that melted,
And the chromium too?
WHO ARE THE BRAIN POLICE?



as someone who has realized great personal growth and value from the channeled material of Seth, Law Of One, and some other sources, I would personally feel this forum was less worthwhile to me if all 'channeled' material was banned.

I could see the value in one thread per source, and I can understand folks not appreciating channeled content posted in the other forums as if it were news, etc.

And then how do we categorize content, such as that from Kettler, which is claimed as 'received from ET/ED's via telepathy', and not 'channeled' as the receiver is conscious and not using a scribe, or so the difference has been stated by some?

I agree,
Dolores Cannon's book "The Keepers of The Garden" was also channeled information through a medium that was in a somnambulistic hypnotic state. And her book is mind blowing to say the least. Is this considered the same type of channeling? If you haven't read the book, I'm posting her book below. It may just change your mind on channeled messages.

http://flavian.ro/engleza/Dolores%20Cannon%20-%202%20Keepers%20of%20the%20Garden.pdf

[gooty64]

Perfect simple solution there Dennis and Doublehelix.

Too many great threads are gone in hours because the "excitement junkies" are looking for something shocking or a quick fix, feel good smoothie or whatever.



I would propose that Avalon retain the channeled material. (Hey, I've seen many many threads on Avalon that were not channeled material, where my discernment has the needle on my BS meter pegged into the red zone.) I'd like to propose that the Channeled Information section be:

1.) moved out of the "Spirituality" sub-forum
2.) a new subforum be created, "Channeled Information", just for channeled material
3.) the new Channeled Information subforum be removed from the "feed."4.) implement the feature for icons on the forum main page, indicating that a subforum has new content

I see a simple solution to the percieved problem being discussed here.

Perhaps we could remove any material posted in the "Channelled" section from appearing in the "Newest Posts" live feed. That way it doesn't flood the board, nor detract from other more pertinent topics (imo). For those who are that way inclined towards channeled material, the section would still remain intact and highly accesible.

[blufire]

TelosianEmbrace

I want to thank you deeply for this post. I will have to say I became very emotional when I read it and had to collect myself. You struck something very deeply in me that I have been struggling with for many months now

I want very much to share the information I have and what my journey has been the past several years and especially the last four or five . . . more than this I want desperately to share what I am doing now.

But for me, I no longer am sure if Project Avalon is the place for me anymore. The substance and feel has changed drastically. Hence this current thread.

Where I live now and what I feel could occur here in these mountains would benefit so many and not only that but could begin a new way of life that we dream about here on PA
But, I desperately need a platform to build from and a place to be able to refer others that I am working with. Project Avalon used to be that place I was confident in, but no more.

I am working with individuals with very deep pockets and can bring about quick action and developments . . . like a source of free energy. I have referred many the past couple years to PA and have been very embarrassed from their comments and reaction. They like and relate to the information and videos that Bill and Kerry have made . . . . but elements like the channeled information turn them off hands down.

The channeled messages that talk about freedom from the elite, banker cabals, destruction on earth and how the gfl or what ever are coming to save us is such false hope . . . a lie . . . and takes the power and drive away from us as individuals and then as a united force.

What these messages talk about I know we can do them now. Start small with small groups and build a model community and expand from there with each community putting there own touches and desires.

I feel I have the resources to build such a community . . . free energy . . . free healthy food. . . meaningful work and accomplishment that is satisfying . . . . . low property and housing costs and even free. There is literally millions of dollars that would be available.

I don’t know anymore . . . . I am very discouraged, not with what I know that can be accomplished but where I will share this information and offer this opportunity.







What I would like to read more of is threads started by Blufire talking about what she is passionate about, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Blufire, you have a wealth of information and experience about self sufficiency, emergency and power supplies, and many related topics, from memory. Being entrenched within society at this point in my life I would really enjoy hearing about the life you lead and the precautions you have taken in order to ride out any possible future difficulties. Perhaps you could post them in the sub forum "Living off the Grid".

[Selene]

BluFire, you have tremendous capacities and much to offer here. Please contribute whatever you feel comfortable doing, and see where that may lead you. Our Off The Grid section is a good place to post sustainability information.

Just begin. The rest will follow.

All my best wishes,

Selene

[DeDukshyn]

On the OP ...

As an occasional browser of the channeled material, I'd agree -- we need more info -- like a link to the original source and / or a commentary by the poster would be nice.
But I think this applies everywhere -- not just the channeled material. I'd like to see alot more context for posts and threads that link other's materials on all topics.

That said, I have noticed one member has already started adding more info to the posts on channeled material already, I think due to a request by another member(s)???

[Kimberley]

I would like to address blufire (and anyone else that resonates ) with this suggestion/recommendation... follow your heart, your passion, and share what you are best at and what works for you and give your energy to what works for you! When you point a finger, criticize, blame, chastise, you are pointing the finger criticizing, blaming, chastising yourself.
Much love to us all!!

[Godiam]

To Read, or not To Read?
That is the question!
Choices, always choices!

If you don't resonate with channeled messages, just avoid them!
Don't try to force your beliefs on others, by taking away their right to read what they want!

I may not agree with what you say, But I will fight to the death for your right to say it!......generally attributed to Voltaire,

HUGS...........Godiam

[mosquito]

Dennis and Ilie have provided the answers, so I can't see the point in continuing this discussion, but I'll give my opinion anyway.

There is lots of material here on Avalon and also on Camelot that I personally do not agree with. But that does not give me the right to demand it be banned or censored. Nearly all of said material is stuff which I've read/listened to before concluding it doesn't resonate with me.

If I don't wish to read a thread, I don't read it, it's incredibly simple ! Why is it that members of this forum who give the outward appearance of being powerful, who write with courage, strength and passion, are apparently not able to take such a simple step ?

Yes, occasionally stuff (not just chanelled information) does bleed over into other areas, but so bloody what ? Have you ever encountered a random or unwanted thought in your head while you're in the middle of an important task ? It's the same thing.

Yes, you can "ignore" other members, (which seems incredibly childish to me, but there we go) but how do you know you aren't throwing the baby out with the bathwater ? People here claim they're awake and conscious, yet how many people go out of their way to read material written by someone they don't like or disagree with ? Try it someday, it can be quite illuminating. Just as an example - a couple of years ago a friend insisted I read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, who normally makes my hackles rise. I read the introduction and sat and fumed for hours about the man's arrogance, but eventually decided to push myself out of the comfort zone and read it. And I have to say it's a stunning book, full of Dawkins' sophistry admittedly, but with some real insightful information and, importantly - it made me think for myself !. Hopefully I make my point.

Please read what Ilie says, regardless of whether you're posting chanelled information or anything else from outside, please follow the forum guidlines and don't just cut and paste.

[eileenrose]

Anything to control the over use of channeled material on this forum would be beneficial. I feel even people who channel material don't necessarily want to be over analyzed and I always felt the focus of this forum was to analyze material, either spiritually or with the mind.

It doesn't benefit a channeler to be on this forum anyway. I personally have gone through massive amounts of channelled information and find little corroboration for most of their claims. Since people claim that they feel better (placebo) reading this material, I am not 'against' it....I only like to see if put on another forum (personally), one that is 'for' the person who does the channeling. Putting a channeler's words on this forum means that you don't believe them either. As obviously, this forum has some of the smartest people on the planet (really), and they will pick apart anything put here.

[9eagle9]

A few problems with channeled messages is that 90 percent of it is programs. The more a central source is pushed the more likely its a program, and people literally cannot help but post it, or quote, they literally stop themselves, its a program running and they more people to get in the program. It's to be emotionally provocative, and addictive. And targets disingenous minds, wounded people. Much it is covert cult activity. To some minds is OVERT cult activity.

Blufire is showing more responsiblity to her fellow humans than those who push this stuff without pausing to see what risks are involved. People are all angry and anguished that the wool was pulled over our eyes for so long about everything, about where we came from, our origins, our history, our money --everything under the sun--so when someone attempts to shed some light on something else not only intended to pull the wool over your eyes, put deliberately mislead you.....people get resentful? That is big red flag.

Not a problem? That's okay? No one should be concerned?

People can have it , in fact the people who push this stuff don't have any choice in the matter. They can't help themselves. One there's censorship, two even if you censored it, they have an agenda. It's a program that is what much of it is intended for. There is a certain sort of mind and emotional set they target, and they get them from first paragraph and once the noose is arond the neck thats it. You couldn't censor this stuff if you burned the forum down. This is why certain covert means of influence is called infiltration and its not neccessary to ban it, you CAN"T ban it. Who is need reading the material on this forum , the serious stuff not to KNOW what infiltration is?

You can only inform people that theres two sides to the channeling coin.

For the disinformed or those ignorant to how brainwashing works, they may want to see the other side of the coin. The programs, the programmed and the programmers are of course going to object. If I was playing roulette with your head wouldn't like someone to let you know that not all the chambers in the gun are just empty space? Is this forum not here to inform people?

. We're not talking people who periodically post inspiring messages, this is relentless pushing of the same old sources, the same old story, the same old program day in and day. Authenitic channelers do not get the same message everyday. If that sort of person had a joint or a bottle in their head someone would be "Hey-llo you have a problem" .

People think its all acceptable and harmless and its not. It has to be critically examined, and the programming never holds water, it always reveals itself for what it is if someone is informed.

[jackovesk]

The 'Channeling Section' reminds me of those 'Addicted' to soap Drama's :drama: like (Days of Our Lives) - Sad but True...:yes4:

My only advice is to start looking (Within)...Its 2012 folks and you aint going to solve the worlds problems by turning to Self Appointed Psuedo Gurus for the Answers...:nono:

IMHO - No Channeler is going to get the World back onto its rightful Path (Timeline), only a massive shift in Human Consciousness will...

Having said all that, if you continue to look Outside instead of (Within) for the Answers, you have your own (Freewill) to do so...:)

[Dennis Leahy]

...I want very much to share the information I have and what my journey has been the past several years and especially the last four or five . . . more than this I want desperately to share what I am doing now.

...

Where I live now and what I feel could occur here in these mountains would benefit so many and not only that but could begin a new way of life that we dream about here on PA
But, I desperately need a platform to build from and a place to be able to refer others that I am working with.

...

What these messages talk about I know we can do them now. Start small with small groups and build a model community and expand from there with each community putting there own touches and desires.

I feel I have the resources to build such a community . . . free energy . . . free healthy food. . . meaningful work and accomplishment that is satisfying . . . . . low property and housing costs and even free.

... where I will share this information and offer this opportunity.
Hi Blufire,

Sounds like you are bursting with ideas, have solid information (not just hope) to know the ideas can be transformed into reality (with "sweat equity")...and, amazingly, also have contacts for resources to make it happen. (Most people I know with this idea do not have access to financial resources.)

Sounds like maybe a self-sustainable eco-village project (http://sustcomm.com/), ("intentional community" or "self-sustainable community" or perhaps you have another name.)

You could be sharing some of the most important information to be shared at Avalon.

Obviously, I can't speak for Bill, but you may want to directly ask him if you could be granted a sub-forum here at Avalon, to document the process of (at least) starting this project. Keep copies of all the text you write and photos you take, and that will (later) become the basis for a website dedicated to the project.

When I was about 22 years old (35 years ago!), I heard about the very last "townsite" project that would be allowed to be built on a mining claim. An old mining law was finally being changed, and this was to be the last shot at legaly creating a town from the property of a mining claim. I instantly decided to go for it. With a pioneering spirit, a few hundred dollars, and all the useful items I could jam into a car, I took the nearly 800 mile trip...

Ah, that was then... when I had the freedom to be spontaneous.

Anyway, I think you'll find some of the youthful and unattached human energy you'll need - right on this forum. But, more importantly, you'll have shared this incredibly valuable information with people around the world. People who could not possibly think of coming to where you are, but who could take some of the ideas and make all or even some of it happen in their local area.

If you are able to get a sub-forum here, you can give out a URL directly to that subforum, for example, here's a link directly to the Shelter (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/forumdisplay.php?71-Shelter) subforum, under "Living Off The Grid."

Dennis

{edit} p.s. If not a subforum, then how about a single thread where this Blufire Eco-Village info would be held? That is what Wade Frazier has here at Avalon: WADE FRAZIER: A Healed Planet (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10672-WADE-FRAZIER-A-Healed-Planet).

[Cilka]

If free choice to read whatever is offered on this forum is taken away I'm out of here!!

I agree with Carmen, we need to have a free choice to read whatever is posted here, and we should be allowed to come to our own conclusion if we agree with the info being presented or not. I grew up in a communist country and I strongly believe in freedom of speech, and I have to say that even though a lot of the channeled messages that are being shared in this forum can be quite irritating, I still choose to read them. It is a learning experience for me to be exposed to all kinds of information, and I am always the one making the final decision to believe in it or not.

Please do not take away the freedom of speech in this forum. I understand the frustration of some of you, I have been there many times, but I still would not stop anyone from speaking their own mind. This experience can teach you to be more tolerant of people whose beliefs do not match yours. Just say what is on your mind and then let it go.

And by the way, I won't leave, I like the variety of people that come here to share their brain messages.

[tonius]

Blufire , thanks for this thread, fully agree, although i wouldn't reccomend stopping at all posting these messages, they sometimes help me relax and have a good laugh, a ''critical'' laugh if there is such.

Jokes apart, i think they have, in the spiritual community in general, the same effect religion has at the other side of the fence (the ''sleeping'' reality ) , different dish from the same menu, the menu of hope.
Its like we get exited when others, being it ''evolved beings'' or priests, tell us how wonderful or sinful we are (don't be amased of how many souls find living in guilt and sorrow much more exiting then the oppossite). I don't judge, they are free to belive whatever they want, but as i have replied to many of these posts, as i do reply religous people in the everyday life , its not about the message in itself , its about what you make of it, how and if you question it, what does it add to your being that was not there before, usually it ends with me being called something alike to an ''extremist'' spiritualist ( no better term comes to mind ) or worse. In same way i am such, because i think whatever you search is inside, all my posts reflect this, and i never comes to compromises when it comes to this matter.

So i wonder why , the best answer i could give to this is that not everyone is ready to stop worshiping or feeling god ( infinite ) themselves, its harder than what you would thing to look no more outside for answers and be left only with the ''emptiness'' inside, no more ''cool'' stuff to read or mantras to say, there it is the real you, ''crude'' ''cold'' nothingness, eventhough i would never exchange it with anything else , being it interdimensional tour promisses or ''captain'' positions in galactic gangs, sorry... galactic federations. They are notions that none of us has really experinced yet, or don't remember it , we just have ''heard'' it, ''from mouth to mouth'', they may be all just an illusion loop, a cheat to keep our infinity out of our eyes , or it may be not , but at least lets look what we already have here, ourselves.

You may hear 100 times how infinite or wonderful you are, who you are, from more ''evolved'' beings but without going through that ''cold'' emptiness and staring everyday to that ''boring'' nothingness you can only ''suppose'' you are infinite. I don't think all these messages are manipulations from not so ''benevolent'' beings, the ones we are food for at the moment, some may be in our best interest, the problem for me is that thay have made a strong ''fake'' connection in people's minds between their ''infinity'', which is always there even if they don't grasp it, and graduations or shifts to reach such understanding, making them belive that somehow we now are ''limited'' to ''get it''. Well, i know we are being manipulated from every direction, its true that we are somehow ''entraped'' in these bodies, but beliving you need ''graduation'' and having a carrier in the ''upper'' levels of the illusion is the key to know yourself for me is wrong. If you tell me that this is just for fun, thats why we are here, than i wish you have a lot of it.

This may the way thing go, but the revelant thing is that we, now, are looking at ourselves through others' eyes, being it ''earthly'' gurus , priests or ''havenly'' beings, forgetting that thats their version of it, they are still playing, in a more advanced level but they still look at themselves from ''their'' experience, where is OUR VERSION OF IT ? For the moment we dont have one, few try, most just copy what they hear and read, because its more convinient and interesting, spaceships that appear and dissapear are for us now what thunder was for our ancestors, history repats itself.

[eileenrose]

I have no issue with people leaving a forum. Anything that no longer works should be tossed.

If people decided to leave en mass to demonstrate that some action by this forum needs to occur, something would happen.

If we can't make something good happen here, how can we make it happen anywhere?

And why would changing a few operational parameters of one forum matter to anyone? Because they are invested (in the old).

If you have read each post honestly, the ones protecting the channelings and the way they get posted at the moment are all upset and non-logical (not offering solutions to other member's issues). ....they are so afraid of losing some connection they feel they need, they are refusing to see how it hurts the rest of the members of the forum (that are affected). Doesn't sound like love at all.

Just more 'me' first ideas.
Now you see why nothing happens on the outside (Eckart Tolle, Paul Lowe etc.) or on the planet. 'Me first' never cares about other people. It is the ego. So the channelings are attracting ego manifestations (that should tell you something).

If they are great, they will last.
They don't need help (the channelings).
It is only the human mind wanting things not to change that is at work here (the forum be dammed! logic).

If the people not wanting to see that channelings are affecting this community (it is one....in a loose way) continue to have their way, then they will eventually only have channelings to read. AS everyone else will just start a new forum without them at all.

I prefer to help everyone see what they need to see (even if they don't want to). Let us work this out together and not just throw out every member who has figured out that channelings are corrupted and hence are corrupting everything they touch.

[Anchor]

I found the following vBulletin mod that would seem to allow a user to identify entire forums to be ignored for that person. I think that would make everyone happy:

http://www.lampwrights.com/showthread.php?t=84

You know what that sounded so good till I read:


NO, this is NOT 4.x compatible.

:-(

----

Anyway

I have a sneaky feeling that this isn't really about channelled messages, its about what is bumped to the top and when.

Remember when Pila showed up and kept bumping that thread, which really started to get under peoples skin, to the top of the new posts screen every day?

That was the problem for a lot of people.

Not only did you have to make a decision not to view it, but you had to keep making it and making it and making it and making it etc.

Eventually I suggested using a group for this - but by then people had been so rude to Pila that he buggered off anyway.

I don't want to see people leaving over this.

It is probably clear that I am no fan of the GFL channelings - this doesnt change anything, but I felt like giving fair disclosure!

Lets not be hasty.

There is a solution to this somewhere without dividing the community.

Blufire has got a point - I was one of the people who wanted the channeled messages split out in the first place, and it worked for a while, but that was before we got seriously inundated with GFL channellings. I myself have backed off posting some material that included channeled material because it gets lumped in with that GFL archetype - and that archetype is not primarily concerned with the eternal verities - things that will still be true in 10,000 years.

[9eagle9]

Not to mention people leaving, what about those who want to join? I thought when I joined this was alternative media forum for access about whisteblower, but the top of the post is pile are messages about Ascension Religions and junk channeling. Avalon does not impress that it is a new age religious and belief site I was not given disclosure when I joined what Avalon is about, but on any given day thats whats being pumped at the top of the list.

You can't curb it, you can't moderate it. That's part of the programming running in junk channeling messages.

You cannot debate with who authored these messages they are well protected. They won't come in and be able to defend their messages, they can't. They do not possess the critical thinking skills required to defend their messages, they in turn use their audience to spread the word, dissociate from it, and the audience is unable to critically support their message. If the message fails to hold water or make them look like idiots that okay, because they won't abandon the message. The fact that the messages fails to hold water and is found to be loaded with manipulation is YOUR fault. You are the abuser and You are the one who will curbed. That is how the program as recently demonstrated.

You can't debate it with the people who push the message because "you'll be disrespecting someone" their well protected too. The messages themselves are juvenile but are constructed subtly brilliant insights into the functions of human psychoclogy that make this stuff a fortress. It never suports those who hold these views. Even when its obvious contradictions and mind bending are pointed out the people who post this stuff return again and again and continue defending it. You can't do anything about it. It would be an empowring statement to the world if you could, but ...we can't. It's meant to trip the triggers of self policing of even the people who don't participate in it in the first place. Whatever creates this stuff KNOWS that people will not and cannot defend themselves to it.

These programs run like gallup polls, if people can't quash a program, a message meant to activate confusion in the subconscious, what exactly are they going to do in terms of empowering themselves of the ptb. The ptb sees this inability to mediate these scripts. We can't empower ourselves over a few bits of badly written prose, what are we going to in terms of challenging larger problems in the world? They feel pretty safe in their corners now.

You can't do anything about it. Its a well protected program, a program that knows the psychological process of humans and uses that process not only against the psyche of a human but to protect itself once it has established itself there. That which it abuses becames its guardian. Clearly this is highlighted in all evidence that has been revealed about high level brainwashing, and been revealed here in this forum. So informing does little good.

Can't ban it, can't do anything really but inform people those who have enough clear process left not to get assimilated by it. And once people are informed they see the programming at work, it always provides its own evidence.

I'd be suprised if people didn't leave,nor would I blame them for doing so, nor would I be suprised if it kept people from joining. There are lots of media outlets that discuss junk channelings, and lots of information on the web about the scams associated with them. People are going to run that information, see these junk channelings hightlighted in the new posts daily and think twice about coming here. Can you blame them?

[Bo Atkinson]

"I have a sneaky feeling that this isn't really about channelled messages, its about what is bumped to the top and when."

Pretty much so, agreed. Except that the mods have indicated, one can adjust their own user interface displays, to alleviate some of the strain of unwanted messages. If one can study through the directions of how-to. All the buttons and all the very complex display mechanics are tedious.

Actually, if it were easy to completely control interfaces individually. Then the interaction of posts would be very different. Like minds would gravitate more closely on topics of real interest. Instead of diverging mind sets clashing all over.

Also, one will find deception or distractions or disparagement in every subject- forum. That is why the restless will just as likely come back.

[stardustaquarion]

Again, I see no reason to go into lengthy dialogue ... it's simple.

CHOICES CHOICES CHOICES ... we all have freewill ... choose what you read ... A simple question deserves a simple answer....if we all start chucking stuff underneath the carpet, so to speak...

THEN WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE FOLKS !!...Think about it ... what are the control systems trying to do wIth the internet.?

IMHO its a ridiculous request to make...we are all here trying to sift through truth and I'm afraid that includes channeling. I always discern and some messages resonate and some do not...its all part of the game folks...get real.

I have made my point...so be it.

viking

I am all for free speach but I do not agree with your methods Viking. Whether or not you are a PR agent for this inexistant aliens I want you to be fair with us and stop putting sensasionalist titles on the threads

I think that for good order sake each channeler should have their own thread as in one for Sheldon Nile, another for Salusa etc and the threads should be named : Channeling from.... that way those like me who do not want to waste time reading your threads can easily avoid them

We want REAL good news and not the programing from your mates. You know one of the mind control techniques is that if you tell a lie enough times it becomes acceptable

As a matter of principle I am against mind programing of any kind and your channeler friends are doing just that

I think that if you do as I suggested you get your cake and so do we, everyone is happy

Spam is spam and that is what you normally do to us

One question though, if you know that most of the people here are against that kind of programing, why do you insist in posting them, day after day, after day, after day

Do you like irritating people?

Why not have a your own thread where you can notify those that are interested that there is a new chaneling in so a so forum so people can go there instead?

How many times since you joined Avalon people have asked you to stop?

Sorry mante but I just don't understand you

When I was infatuated with Ashayana Deane, instead of making loads of thread I did a group in the group section so I did not irritated people. That is another avenue for you, make a group for people interested in spurious channeled material and everybody is happy

Sorry for the rant but this subject is gone on for years now and has got worse since Bill moved to Ecuador

[Eric J (Viking)]

Again, I see no reason to go into lengthy dialogue ... it's simple.

CHOICES CHOICES CHOICES ... we all have freewill ... choose what you read ... A simple question deserves a simple answer....if we all start chucking stuff underneath the carpet, so to speak...

THEN WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE FOLKS !!...Think about it ... what are the control systems trying to do wIth the internet.?

IMHO its a ridiculous request to make...we are all here trying to sift through truth and I'm afraid that includes channeling. I always discern and some messages resonate and some do not...its all part of the game folks...get real.

I have made my point...so be it.

viking

I am all for free speach but I do not agree with your methods Viking. Whether or not you are a PR agent for this inexistant aliens I want you to be fair with us and stop putting sensasionalist titles on the threads

I think that for good order sake each channeler should have their own thread as in one for Sheldon Nile, another for Salusa etc and the threads should be named : Channeling from.... that way those like me who do not want to waste time reading your threads can easily avoid them

We want REAL good news and not the programing from your mates. You know one of the mind control techniques is that if you tell a lie enough times it becomes acceptable

As a matter of principle I am against mind programing of any kind and your channeler friends are doing just that

I think that if you do as I suggested you get your cake and so do we, everyone is happy

Spam is spam and that is what you normally do to us

One question though, if you know that most of the people here are against that kind of programing, why do you insist in posting them, day after day, after day, after day

Do you like irritating people?

Why not have a your own thread where you can notify those that are interested that there is a new chaneling in so a so forum so people can go there instead?

How many times since you joined Avalon people have asked you to stop?

Sorry mante but I just don't understand you

When I was infatuated with Ashayana Deane, instead of making loads of thread I did a group in the group section so I did not irritated people. That is another avenue for you, make a group for people interested in spurious channeled material and everybody is happy

Sorry for the rant but this subject is gone on for years now and has got worse since Bill moved to Ecuador

LOL haven't got a clue what you are talking about, but have a nice day...

Like I said we can alll choose to view or not.

Blessings

edit...I'll carry on posting when I want, and what I want...as long as it is within the guidelines of the forum...then I'll carry on.

viking

[stardustaquarion]

Viking please answer my questions, do not dodge the bullet like SaLuSa who never answers to anyone

Or shall I assume that you do want to brain wash us, you do want to irritate us, you want to spam us, and you do not care about our feelings that you chose to ignore us? and you chose not to listen to the comentaries and complaints that are being put to you?

Charming

[modwiz]

Viking please answer my questions, do not dodge the bullet like SaLuSa who never answers to anyone

Or shall I assume that you do want to brain wash us, you do want to irritate us, you want to spam us, and you do not care about our feelings that you chose to ignore us? and you chose not to listen to the comentaries and complaints that are being put to you?

Charming

How about he is not, like me, prone to all of the histrionics around this subject. The drama about this is like a twisted soap opera or Shakespeare play, "Much Ado About Nothing". It is really hard to take your last two posts as serious. Not to single you out though, there is plenty of misplaced frustration showing in this thread. The curse of our dis-empowerment is we are all broken up inside without a clue to the origin of the real pain, so we thrash and flail about from/to any little thing that we don't resonate with and blame it for our discomfort.

It is bogus. In the extreme.

Some just post their passion and have no sinister agenda to "irritate, or brainwash". A look in the mirror might provide some answers.

[WhiteFeather]

IMO,,, I personally feel like some channeled messages are like some good prayers, intentions being called forth. And this excites/stimulates the consciousness field of hope, sending out rippling positive energy reverberations into the universe. Thus Destroying the negative energies being cast on this planet. For Example, The Archons spoken by Robert Stanley.

[blufire]

* * * * This Is A Test On Whether Or Not We Can Be Self Governing * * * * * *

Have you noticed over the past few months the input from the moderators and Bill has been very limited . . . in fact the silence is deafening. The mods basically step in when an all out brawl is about to ensue or clear cut infractions of the forum rules are broken. They state black and white much as Illie has done in this thread and step back out.

I have a sneaking suspicion that after the Lord Sidious/Ishtar fiasco that Bill sorta said . . . let ‘em have at it . . . .either the forum survives or it doesn’t. And who can blame him (Bill) and them (the mods) . . . its exhausting and maddening.

So can we be self governing? I have been giving this a tremendous amount of thought because of the massive project I’m about to jump in the middle of. How does a community set up a government that is for the good of all involved without falling into the same traps and paradigms of past governments? Can we identify and implement a benevolent, people empowering system?

We are supposedly a forum of forward thinking individuals with a desire to implement standards that will change the world or at least the immediate world we each inhabit. If we cannot come to a workable decision on this forum then how in world can we hope to be leaders or stewards of a community?

There is literally thousand and thousands of posts and hours of incredibly important and profound information on this forum . . . .are we going to allow it to disappear in the apathy of a dysfunctional family or are we going to make a stand to be compassionate and decisive in how we use this information to our advantage as a powerful alternative community?

So what say you? Can we use this thread as an example to come to a self governed decision? Implement the decision and in the future apply the decision when questions or problems arise? Remember this is Bill’s forum and the guidelines are already set forth and we agreed to these when we applied and these should be our basis to formulate a conclusion.

So I feel the first dialogue should be identifying the problem or disruption or what is causing disharmony.

I would ask that you be clear and short in your statement. Please do not go into a long winded diatribe or bring in past history unless it is clearly relative.

Or perhaps we don’t have to start from the very beginning . . . .Dennis Leahy, Illie Pandia, and others have already se forth very positive and workable ideas.

I feel though we haven’t too many suggestions or at least suggestions that are clear from the pro-channelling side. Especially from the primary person this issue addresses. It is important we are clear on the needs of everyone to come to an agreement that all will support.

Another thought that I feel is very important :
We should identify a small group of individuals from both camps . . . . say three on each side . . . to take all the suggestions under consideration and be the final deciding voice.


I open the floor . . . . .

[Eric J (Viking)]

Viking please answer my questions, do not dodge the bullet like SaLuSa who never answers to anyone

Or shall I assume that you do want to brain wash us, you do want to irritate us, you want to spam us, and you do not care about our feelings that you chose to ignore us? and you chose not to listen to the comentaries and complaints that are being put to you?

Charming

If your blatherings were worthy of a response...I would have by now...but alas.

peace

viking

[stardustaquarion]

Really...it goes to show

KlvPv8l6TyE

Channeling are mind programing, they are intended to make people complascent to keep the dream of salvacionims alive. They want us to believe that we have to do NOTHING to straighten the problems of our planet that all will be "ALRIGHT"...meantime they are raiding all the countries, they are taking our tax payers money, leaving people in destitution... yeah do nothing and hope that Ashtar will save you...just like with the Gulf disaster where was the GLF? they never showed up....or like Fukushima where was the the GLF? they never showed up...why because they are intedimentional archons, they CAN NOT SHOW UP. If you want to know more about the archons there is plenty online

People in this forum percieve the deception at a subconscious level and hence they feel irritated by the channelings...they know it is not good for them but the lure of an easy solution attracks them

Viking might not know it but he is totaly in this GLF Cult and being an ex cult member myself I know how difficult is to see reality from the other side of the cult

All these channelings are not inofensive. This is a program started by the infamous Andrija Pujarich and the ficticious "council of nine"

If you research Andrija Puharich as I have done, you will realize the deception we have been submitted while at the same time we have been unable to engage with the planet and do something about the unbalances that are there

Don't believe me, do your own research

[gooty64]

Note to higher self/funny bone:

Viking just accused someone else of blatherings.

[stardustaquarion]

Viking please answer my questions, do not dodge the bullet like SaLuSa who never answers to anyone

Or shall I assume that you do want to brain wash us, you do want to irritate us, you want to spam us, and you do not care about our feelings that you chose to ignore us? and you chose not to listen to the comentaries and complaints that are being put to you?

Charming

If your blatherings were worthy of a response...I would have by now...but alas.

peace

viking

The only one that blathers here is you my dear viking

rm6hs-ytoRg

PS sorry had to change the video was the wrong link

[blufire]

JEEZ . . . . STOP!!!

Please read my above post

[gripreaper]

A new level of discernment is required.

I see Avalon as a place where we can discuss solutions. Bill Ryan, when asked about who to interview next, he pretty much said that he feels he has just about covered the whole scenario, the archives are full and complete for anyone who wishes to explore certain topics, and it is time for action. Bill moved to Vicalbamba and they're busy growing food and working within their small community. Bill hardly has posted anything in weeks and doesn't get involved in these threads, but I'll bet he knows about them.

Most here have explored all of the rabbit holes of who, what, where why and how the cabalistic bankster elite are running the world and the atrocities which they perpetuate. Many of us are looking at solutions. Vicalbamba is a community which is preparing to provide for it's own needs without the global centralized system. Others have expressed the desire (blufire) to take the solutions discussion to the next level. She has five years experience off the grid and is an invaluable friend for all of us here and should be treated with respect. Dennis is all about gardening as well as others. There is a real core here which is ready and willing.

Yet, while I see a shift from focusing on who the bad guys are to a solution oriented forum, I also see the accelerated amount of provocateuring and disinfo, which I include junk channeling in that group. To inundate this forum, every single day now, with many channelings, such as Greg Giles, plus many others, the deluge of junk channeling is just too much. Like I said in the first sentence of this post, it is time for maximum discernment and along with that it is time to speak up.

After kerry's blog post addressing the mind control psyops and what has happened to Bill Brockbrader, I felt a sense of compassion. I also sensed that those who are working hard in the alternative media are also being challenged to maximum discernment and we will all be required to "up our game' a bit. Duncan O'Finian was quite verbal about what he thought of the whole thing and he is a perfect example of what can happen.

Suffice it to say, no one is coming to rescue us. Jesus is not coming, there is no rapture, the ET's wont save us, or come take us on a joy ride by picking us up in black limousines, or plant a 300 foot nuclear submarine as a land dart in front of the Washington Monument. Of course, if they do, I'll retract this statement and issue an apology. Quite frankly I'd love it if they were here to help us, but I see a dangerous trend of lethargy and inaction brewing since Occupy Wall Street died down for the winter. The increase in provocation has increased almost in tandem.

So that's my take. I know there are those here who will disagree with me. I'm not against channeled information, just the lower vibration stuff still in duality which is designed to make us all lovey dovey and lethargic where we feel we don't need to do anything because it's taken care of by the ET's.

Bill Ryan says, make Avalon a better place by doing and contributing that which is helpful to all. We make Avalon what it is.

[Wind]

In my opinion limiting is never a good thing because things tend to go downhill from there, even if there are good intentions behind it.

[Eric J (Viking)]

Oooops wrong thread ...

viking

[stardustaquarion]

In my opinion limiting is never a good thing because things tend to go downhill from there, even if there are good intentions behind it.

Limiting is not the same as organizing so everyone can be happy IMHO which is what I am suggesting

[Wind]

In my opinion limiting is never a good thing because things tend to go downhill from there, even if there are good intentions behind it.

Limiting is not the same as organizing so everyone can be happy IMHO which is what I am suggesting

I understand, here are many good suggestions.

[9eagle9]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41567-Never-blindly-accept-any-received-information-without-question-&goto=newpost

review this process of channeled messagers.

Because it is a whole process of programming, never minding my remarks on where the psyche bending is at, thats just obvious, look at the reactions. Particularly where we have a backlash against employing objectivity towards reviewing the message.

1) The message provides its own evidence of supplying a confusing, and opposing core values and beliefs if looked at objectively. I dind't stick the evidence there, it came with the message. Shoot the observer and we see that happening, again and again and again.

There is no rebuttal based to my remarks based on the or contained in message itself, it all turns to a personal attack based on feelings. Even as the message says this is all about emotions and speaking in the language of just emotions. How many times have I mentioned this all how they manipulate us through our feelings, now they are just stating it outright.

2) The reactions implicate that intellgience and objectivity is ego tistical and whole other variety of unsavory characterstics.

Yet....the message also states.

"never blindly recieve information without question".

But the moment you question it or even just point the out the psychological bending in the message, the proponents immediately attack for doing exactly as the message suggested.They don't beleive or act or even accept the message they are pushing....... yet rush to defend it.

3) Another reaction Encourages one to ignore all these nastly, so smart, know it alls and only try to connect with our higher self and universal mind.

You can't do that in a program, it doesn't allow the clarity to allow for that sort of connection. The more confusion we have, and the message is entirely composed of opposing core values meant to confuse, the less the clarity and objectivity we have.

So a higher self is going to provide higher intellgience, more objectivity, seeing things for the way they really are . More knowledge. But at the same token ingellgience is besmirched and sullied as if something dirty. What ELSE can we call this?

Are we seeking our higher self because it will be dumbed down, not intellgient, not smart or are seeking to connect because it provides MORE clarity and more awareness and intellgience? It will provide to us the very things that help us navigate the trap we are in .

True wisdom, true knowledge is always going to be more powerful than something that isn't real. But It is going to be attacked, as something, unsavory in favor of something that is not even real. How long do we keep allowing that?

If there was something real, and authentically divine and divinely inspired about this message do you think I, a mere mortal, could so easily break it down?

We have got to start trusting what we KNOW and stop excusing what is trying to smother and distort what we know, to smother our higher self expression.

[Sebastion]

Blufire-sent you a pm as I am most interested in what you are trying to pull together in Virginia!

[modwiz]

Blufire-sent you a pm as I am most interested in what you are trying to pull together in Virginia!

I think what Blufire is doing where she lives is amazing and commendable. I admire a hard worker staying with a subject and keeping it alive. I was even thinking of investigating what she is doing and I said it somewhere in her thread, IIRC. This thread has made me realize there are vibrational differences. It's all good.

[Sebastion]

And at this moment, I have every intention of going there and exploring the possibilities. Methinks Blufire is about as authentic as any person could be and the kind I would desire to be associated with. I have a love for that which is authentic and if she is in the process of trying to make a serious difference, which I do not doubt, she will have every ounce of support I can render. I give you my word on that!





Blufire-sent you a pm as I am most interested in what you are trying to pull together in Virginia!

I think what Blufire is doing where she lives is amazing and commendable. I admire a hard worker staying with a subject and keeping it alive. I was even thinking of investigating what she is doing and I said it somewhere in her thread, IIRC. This thread has made me realize there are vibrational differences. It's all good.

[9eagle9]

that's a truly loving attitude Sebastion. I know that Blufire is creating something wonderful for herself. In doing that we pave the way for others. I know terribly hard and lonely and challenging it can be to do what she is doing. It does so have it rewards but there's some long longely streches there too. I've had lots of people offer me help as I have struggled sustainablity and most of thier help has just been a means of attempting to push me back on the grid again. when help arrrives sometimes its even more discouraging ot find out its not help but hinderance.

Because thats where they are comfortable at.

You would be such a valuable treasure and resource there.


I'm vouching you for what its worth!!!

[Sebastion]

I thank you most profoundly for your endorsement 9eagle9. I'll tell you one thing though....if you keep that up, I'll have to hire a couple of 18 wheelers with horse haulers attached to kidnap you and yours to Virginia-as long as you are willing to tip the drivers! I'll just need your credit card number and security codes 1st, just as a precaution you understand....lol

But seriously, I have listened long enough and prefer action. I am not one to sit around and talk for very long. Blufire has a dream and it pretty much resembles mine. She is about action not words alone. So am I. She is about integrity combined with action-so am I. It is high time to "do". Spring is right around the corner-time to clear the decks, no more talk-it's about doing....





that's a truly loving attitude Sebastion. I know that Blufire is creating something wonderful for herself. In doing that we pave the way for others. I know terribly hard and lonely and challenging it can be to do what she is doing. It does so have it rewards but there's some long longely streches there too. I've had lots of people offer me help as I have struggled sustainablity and most of thier help has just been a means of attempting to push me back on the grid again. when help arrrives sometimes its even more discouraging ot find out its not help but hinderance.

Because thats where they are comfortable at.

You would be such a valuable treasure and resource there.


I'm vouching you for what its worth!!!

[Mandala]

Well one thing the GFL has done is cause lots of heightened emotions around here; frustration, anger, resentment, dissension, blaming. It has been a few months, it seems about time for more drama and division around here. Sorry, but this radiates negative energy. Does anyone else feel this. I feel that people are being attacked not the messages.

[blufire]

Mandala,

I feel strongly that the biggest reason this discord continues is we never bring the issues to a final conclusion that all can be at peace with . . . we all need to soften our edges and adapt to the greater good.

Conflict resolution is tough. We will never move forward with success or resolve if we as an ‘online alternative forum community’ can’t set the example.

Everybody grab their Boot Straps and roll up our sleeves and find a solution. Some sweat equity is called for here . . . .Let’s git er’ done!

Who wants to make a nomination on who should be on the deciding council . . .three from each camp.

I think Sebastion and Modwiz would be a good start





Well one thing the GFL has done is cause lots of heightened emotions around here; frustration, anger, resentment, dissension, blaming. It has been a few months, it seems about time for more drama and division around here. Sorry, but this radiates negative energy. Does anyone else feel this. I feel that people are being attacked not the messages.

[9eagle9]

Because and now I'm going into repeating myself ad nauseam until I turn blue in the face, and my guts turn outside and spill onto the hot pavement to sizzle up in a cloud of steam like fry steaks.

It's because the people who push this stuff cannot seperate back into their own self identity, that is what cult activity doe to a person.. They can't separate themselves from the message, so they drag it everyplace they go and when the message is critiqued the people who can't separate themselves from it feel attacked.


Well one thing the GFL has done is cause lots of heightened emotions around here; frustration, anger, resentment, dissension, blaming. It has been a few months, it seems about time for more drama and division around here. Sorry, but this radiates negative energy. Does anyone else feel this. I feel that people are being attacked not the messages.

[blufire]

I have an 8 horse hauler and 48’ box trailer with semi. Just tell me where to send it!!! :dance:


I thank you most profoundly for your endorsement 9eagle9. I'll tell you one thing though....if you keep that up, I'll have to hire a couple of 18 wheelers with horse haulers attached to kidnap you and yours to Virginia-as long as you are willing to tip the drivers! I'll just need your credit card number and security codes 1st, just as a precaution you understand....lol

But seriously, I have listened long enough and prefer action. I am not one to sit around and talk for very long. Blufire has a dream and it pretty much resembles mine. She is about action not words alone. So am I. She is about integrity combined with action-so am I. It is high time to "do". Spring is right around the corner-time to clear the decks, no more talk-it's about doing....





that's a truly loving attitude Sebastion. I know that Blufire is creating something wonderful for herself. In doing that we pave the way for others. I know terribly hard and lonely and challenging it can be to do what she is doing. It does so have it rewards but there's some long longely streches there too. I've had lots of people offer me help as I have struggled sustainablity and most of thier help has just been a means of attempting to push me back on the grid again. when help arrrives sometimes its even more discouraging ot find out its not help but hinderance.

Because thats where they are comfortable at.

You would be such a valuable treasure and resource there.


I'm vouching you for what its worth!!!

[9eagle9]

I'm bad with directions and get things mixed up but I think this is the plan. You send the trailers and the semis to me, I kid nap the drivers, and then give their credit cards to Sebastion.

I have no idea what to do with the drivers after that...any ideas? Need some extra hands around the property?

[blufire]

I'm bad with directions and get things mixed up but I think this is the plan. You send the trailers and the semis to me, I kid nap the drivers, and then give their credit cards to Sebastion.

I have no idea what to do with the drivers after that...any ideas? Need some extra hands around the property?

No no no no (damn I sound like the cat over in Calz “no no no no no cat thread”)

Sebastian’s sending the drivers to me (send about a dozen please), I give them the once over . . . you know muscles, rear view, all possibilities, . . .I pick and then send rest to you with trailers. You send horse hauler back with 3 or 4 mules. We send discarded drivers back to Sebastian and you both send me your credit cards. Yep sounds 'bout right. ;)

[Ria]

I have been requested by bulfire to post, I have cut and pasted from a channeld thread as I think it fits here.

Posting is talking, with the means we have when we are not eye to eye, and if we talked only when we agree this would be a cult. By definiton the word Forum, in wich we virtually are now, means : A public meeting place for open discussion. As long as one explains thoroughly and without intentionally offending others the discusssion is useful to all.
Wonderful!
It's so frustrating when the only argument given is "not to look at threads that don't resonate"...does that mean that we can't try to discuss things an intelligent and civilised way? Does that mean there will be no exchange of (different) ideas? Does that mean that we only listen to those who have the same thoughts and ideas as us? Do we want to broaden our horizons or just feel cosy with like-minded people?
For me, the more interaction and sharp questioning, the better.

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)


Posted by Ria (here)
Tarka the Duck, I completely agree with you, with regard asking and making inquiring questions.
But that is not usually how it happens.
What happens usually, is a barrage of condescension, innuendo, directly being referred to as stupid, delusional uninformed idiots and what a load...........etc
There by terminating any real conversation.
I have noted that your not in agreement with this type of thread as a whole.
As yet I have never found you to be rude and felt we could, co exist with different views.
Channeling is not perfect, it is all so, a difficult process, even people who find it relatively easy can use a wrong word here and there, with out intending to.
As we all develop our connections with higher self and universal mind, this will become obsolete any way.
The allusion will be no more.
As to "coherent and convincing", this might be subjective, I have been with people who are uneducated with poor communication skills who channel good information yet would not translate well in the written format or be received by the intelligentsia. All-so I personally never expect it to be 100% right. but would support anything in the high percentile and their is a large, 'don't know, could be tampered' bucket. And I may just like one sentence.
All so, some all encompassing experience are quite difficult to put into words. This I have noted, many times in others and my self.
The ego-trollers I am so smart brigade have deterred and derailing with great delight on many occasion. So those that post threads are a little battle wiry and keep going for the ones that get something out of it.
Hopefully we can talk and explore further.
Best wishes Ria

Hello Ria

I didn't make it clear that I wasn't specifically referring to the channelling-type threads...like you, I find it depressing how quickly - on any vaguely controversial topic - things degenerate! I don't know about you, but I do sometimes hold back from posting, if I disagree with something someone has said, purely because I might be feeling a little "delicate" that day, and can't face the potential fall out....

And by "coherent and convincing", I certainly don't have any problem with mistakes in spelling or grammar, or the fact that someone might be finding it difficult to explain: its the CONTENT of what someone is saying, and also their intention in saying it, that matters for me.

And of course we can co-exist with different views! And we shall definitely talk and explore further

Kathie

Dear Kathie, love too.
And feel the same way.
I was not thinking so much about the fact that, I am pants at spelling. just less :fencing:and more :laser:in a good way as you have so aptly put it.
Parent Post

[blufire]

Ria, I think for me hands down that was one of the most insightful posts I have read of yours. I have felt a change in you and I can feel a different energy coming from your posts.

How do you feel we could handle this conflict between the different opinions on how channeled information is posted? And I agree with you that simply “not to look at threads that don't resonate" does not seem like a workable solution. How do you feel about what Dennis has offered?

Thank you for posting and offering dialogue that invites resolution.




I have been requested by bulfire to post, I have cut and pasted from a channeld thread as I think it fits here.

Posting is talking, with the means we have when we are not eye to eye, and if we talked only when we agree this would be a cult. By definiton the word Forum, in wich we virtually are now, means : A public meeting place for open discussion. As long as one explains thoroughly and without intentionally offending others the discusssion is useful to all.
Wonderful!
It's so frustrating when the only argument given is "not to look at threads that don't resonate"...does that mean that we can't try to discuss things an intelligent and civilised way? Does that mean there will be no exchange of (different) ideas? Does that mean that we only listen to those who have the same thoughts and ideas as us? Do we want to broaden our horizons or just feel cosy with like-minded people?
For me, the more interaction and sharp questioning, the better.

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)


Posted by Ria (here)
Tarka the Duck, I completely agree with you, with regard asking and making inquiring questions.
But that is not usually how it happens.
What happens usually, is a barrage of condescension, innuendo, directly being referred to as stupid, delusional uninformed idiots and what a load...........etc
There by terminating any real conversation.
I have noted that your not in agreement with this type of thread as a whole.
As yet I have never found you to be rude and felt we could, co exist with different views.
Channeling is not perfect, it is all so, a difficult process, even people who find it relatively easy can use a wrong word here and there, with out intending to.
As we all develop our connections with higher self and universal mind, this will become obsolete any way.
The allusion will be no more.
As to "coherent and convincing", this might be subjective, I have been with people who are uneducated with poor communication skills who channel good information yet would not translate well in the written format or be received by the intelligentsia. All-so I personally never expect it to be 100% right. but would support anything in the high percentile and their is a large, 'don't know, could be tampered' bucket. And I may just like one sentence.
All so, some all encompassing experience are quite difficult to put into words. This I have noted, many times in others and my self.
The ego-trollers I am so smart brigade have deterred and derailing with great delight on many occasion. So those that post threads are a little battle wiry and keep going for the ones that get something out of it.
Hopefully we can talk and explore further.
Best wishes Ria

Hello Ria

I didn't make it clear that I wasn't specifically referring to the channelling-type threads...like you, I find it depressing how quickly - on any vaguely controversial topic - things degenerate! I don't know about you, but I do sometimes hold back from posting, if I disagree with something someone has said, purely because I might be feeling a little "delicate" that day, and can't face the potential fall out....

And by "coherent and convincing", I certainly don't have any problem with mistakes in spelling or grammar, or the fact that someone might be finding it difficult to explain: its the CONTENT of what someone is saying, and also their intention in saying it, that matters for me.

And of course we can co-exist with different views! And we shall definitely talk and explore further

Kathie

Dear Kathie, love too.
And feel the same way.
I was not thinking so much about the fact that, I am pants at spelling. just less :fencing:and more :laser:in a good way as you have so aptly put it.
Parent Post

[Ria]

Blufire, I do not know why you particularly wonted me to post here or why you wont to marshal those with differing interests. What I find most curious is that you do not put your energies, into what dose interest you, or feel it wont be considered relevant if others have interests els where.

[Delight]

Could it be possible that people in this thread are speaking to the desire to trust themselves? This intense evolutionary move is making most "educational" material really unpalatable.

I sometimes have the sense like an old commercial I sa that I have "reached the end of the internet". Everything looks tired like a joke told too often. I feel most everything that wants to advise me from "wisdom" is coming from the same top down hierarchy translated into various formats. That I can see through something presented to me and know it is "OFF" base for my intention to be a Sovereign being is a bit reassuring. It is like exercising a muscle. I feel more able to detach and depend on my own.

But I still like the idea of being part of a collective. The collective here seems more on my wavelength than off. However, I don't see how it serves to try to shut out messages. One of the mods re-iterated that wholesale cut and paste is not in the guidelines. Speaking of cut and paste a bit from wingmakers looks "ON" to me.

http://projectcamelot.org/james_wingmakers_sovereign_integral.html


The savior/master construct is an integral part of the God-Spirit-Soul Complex (GSSC), and encourages human beings to yearn for a master to teach them how to ascend, how to be saved, how to achieve nirvana, how to live a moral life, and how to ensure eternal happiness. There are masters of great wisdom and light who remain within the domain of the (Human Mind System (HMS) without knowing their involvement. The subtlety is so powerful that even when you feel you have achieved self-realization you remain trapped in the HMS. It is that vast, especially when compared to the material world.

Saviors can take on the form of many things, including the second coming of Christ, a wrathful God, the Earth, nature spirits, angelic hosts, prophecy, and extraterrestrial forces who will intercede on humanity’s behalf. Each of us is our own and only savior, our only master who can truly cause us to stand-up within ourselves and shut down the suppression systems and awaken to their Sovereign Integral consciousness. This is the liberation path......

[blufire]

Ria, , , I posted on Darla’s visitor page as well to ask her input. My request has much to do with my post #71 and to a lesser degree my post #50. I truly want to see this thread come to a positive conclusion and therefore would like input from . . . I guess want could be called “the other opposing side”.

This forum is very important to me and more than that, the people who come here day after day. We (the forum) have been so divided for many months and bicker constantly.

Thread after thread flies up with heated discussion with no resolution. It just feeds and grows to the next thread. If you notice since I requested ‘conflict resolution’ this morning the number of comments and views nearly died out until you answered my request. The ‘mob’ moved over to another thread that is “much more fun” than doing the hard work of coming to an agreement that serves a greater good.

For me this is a ‘test’ to see if we (the forum) are capable of finding common ground while retaining our uniqueness

modwiz said:.


I think what Blufire is doing where she lives is amazing and commendable. I admire ahard worker staying with a subject and keeping it alive. I was even thinking of investigating what she is doing and I said it somewhere in her thread, IIRC. This thread has made me realize there are vibrational differences. It's all good.

This really made me sad deep down . . . . that only because modwiz and I don’t (in his words) vibrate the same or there is a difference in how we ‘vibrate’ that he has now rejected the idea of investigating what I am trying to do here.

We need each other to define a future that benefits all. I accept (or at least trying here) and honor everyone’s ‘level of vibration’. . . .it makes us a whole. It gives us depth and strength, but only if we can meet in the middle and find the balance.

Are you willing to help find a resolution and common ground that we all can accept and adapt to?



Blufire, I do not know why you particularly wonted me to post here or why you wont to marshal those with differing interests. What I find most curious is that you do not put your energies, into what dose interest you, or feel it wont be considered relevant if others have interests els where.

[Sabrina]

I don't think anyone has the right to gather a very small 'deciding council' on all of this. That doesn't feel like positive energy to me. I'm beginning to feel there is mischief-making going on here to split the forum yet again. Can't we just be tolerant grown-ups? Quite a bit of stuff gets posted on here direct off the David Icke site with no separate analysis. I've no problem with that, but you could raise similar concerns if you felt so inclined. Let's not stir up conflict when there wasn't any.

[Ria]

I am very slow at posting, sorry there is some delay

Ria, I think for me hands down that was one of the most insightful posts I have read of yours. I have felt a change in you and I can feel a different energy coming from your posts.

How do you feel we could handle this conflict between the different opinions on how channeled information is posted? And I agree with you that simply. “not to look at threads that don't resonate" does not seem like a workable solution. How do you feel about what Dennis has offered?

Thank you for posting and offering dialogue that invites resolution.

not to look at threads that don't resonate" This was written by Tarka the Duck
There is a mas of stuff that is posted on PA that is a complete wast, as far as I am concerned, but I would not think to go in and spend time running it down and telling them what to do, think, etc.
There is, all so, plenty of good things as well.
I do not go along with censoring or interfering.
I very rarely spend time on any thing I am not interested in.
'not to look at threads that don't resonate" does not seem like a workable solutionI
I do not know or understand why the eagerness to interfere.
Mountains out of mole hills. I do not spend time climbing mountains or go in mole hills that do not interests me.
I find the fixation that has been expressed, strange.
Is there any thing wrong with minding ones own business.
Can you let people have there own interests
Can you let people have there own thoughts
What is crazy I did not wont to be on this thread.
I thought high lighting Blufire own interest would be far more productive all round, I got way laid:confused:

[Ria]

:yo:Ria, THIS IS BLUFIRE POST to me, , I posted on Darla’s visitor page as well to ask her input. My request has much to do with my post #71 and to a lesser degree my post #50. I truly want to see this thread come to a positive conclusion and therefore would like input from . . . I guess want could be called “the other opposing side”.

This forum is very important to me and more than that, the people who come here day after day. We (the forum) have been so divided for many months and bicker constantly.

Thread after thread flies up with heated discussion with no resolution. It just feeds and grows to the next thread. If you notice since I requested ‘conflict resolution’ this morning the number of comments and views nearly died out until you answered my request. The ‘mob’ moved over to another thread that is “much more fun” than doing the hard work of coming to an agreement that serves a greater good.

For me this is a ‘test’ to see if we (the forum) are capable of finding common ground while retaining our uniqueness

modwiz said:.

I think what Blufire is doing where she lives is amazing and commendable. I admire ahard worker staying with a subject and keeping it alive. I was even thinking of investigating what she is doing and I said it somewhere in her thread, IIRC. This thread has made me realize there are vibrational differences. It's all good.
This really made me sad deep down . . . . that only because modwiz and I don’t (in his words) vibrate the same or there is a difference in how we ‘vibrate’ that he has now rejected the idea of investigating what I am trying to do here.

We need each other to define a future that benefits all. I accept (or at least trying here) and honor everyone’s ‘level of vibration’. . . .it makes us a whole. It gives us depth and strength, but only if we can meet in the middle and find the balance.

Are you willing to help find a resolution and common ground that we all can accept and adapt to?


Posted by Ria (here)
Blufire, I do not know why you particularly wonted me to post here or why you wont to marshal those with differing interests. What I find most curious is that you do not put your energies, into what dose interest you, or feel it wont be considered relevant if others have interests els where.


I do feel similar to Modwiz [ this is not to be anti you] because constant pressure and generally feeling pushed around puts me right off, be it telling me or others what to do, how to think what I should and should not think.
I all so feel there has been a general lack of respect shown on the channeled threads which has nothing to do with healthy questioning or discussion.

[blufire]

I truly am sorry Ria and I guess I should include Sabrina also . . . I was only trying to gather people from “both sides” to try to bring this channeling controversy to a healthy positive (as much as possible) conclusion, so we could move forward a little more united.

Ria I know you and others feel you have been disrespected and perhaps even a bit bullied but, so do we. Its’ a mutual standoff that is harming the forum. We can’t just pretend it doesn’t exist. There’s an antagonistical, passive aggressive showing from both sides everyday . . . .its childish (both sides) and destructive.

I was not trying to ‘way lay’ you by asking you to join in the discussion and Sabrina I am not trying to divide the forum . . . far far from it

Is this really what you both (ria and Sabrina) hear from my post #71 and #50 and the past few posts?

Maybe I’m really naïve’ . . . . or really off base . . . . or really stupid. Is this or any conflict within this forum beyond resolving?

[Mandala]

Because and now I'm going into repeating myself ad nauseam until I turn blue in the face, and my guts turn outside and spill onto the hot pavement to sizzle up in a cloud of steam like fry steaks.

It's because the people who push this stuff cannot seperate back into their own self identity, that is what cult activity doe to a person.. They can't separate themselves from the message, so they drag it everyplace they go and when the message is critiqued the people who can't separate themselves from it feel attacked.


Well one thing the GFL has done is cause lots of heightened emotions around here; frustration, anger, resentment, dissension, blaming. It has been a few months, it seems about time for more drama and division around here. Sorry, but this radiates negative energy. Does anyone else feel this. I feel that people are being attacked not the messages.

I see that you quoted me and I do want to ask you do you feel that I am a cultist? I have never followed the GFL but I have read it before. I'm not pushing this stuff, I'm not in a cult, matter of fact I teach anti-cult indoctrination to students. I know that many on the forum like reading it. Maybe the GFL has gotten some people to wake up,which is a good thing, strange, but good. Couldn't we better do this by having a section Pro-GFL and then a section for debate or opposing views?


Folks, why would you get yourself so worked up over this? Is it because you have personally been a victim and want to prevent others from this fate? The fact that it has its own little alcove with a "we do not endorse this", kind of says, read at your own risk. Is this worthy of your time and energy?

It seems you are really letting this get to you and cause you terrific stress, as a mediator, unless both sides are requesting solution, I would consider it a non-issue.

Bill and many others have said we possibly and probably have very tough times ahead of us. We need all of us with a united spirit

I'm not meaning any disrespect to anyone, just looking for what you believe we need to do, why it would benefit the whole and what steps we need to take in negotiating a win-win solution for all. If it's not win-win, it's win-lose. Is this what we want?

Bluefire, you and others seem very passionate about this.

So if you guys would, state your reasons for what you would like to have happen and why it would benefit Avalon. Don't attack any people at all for who they are or their beliefs. Also keep thinking win-win for all parties if not, it is a compromise and someone loses. Let's do this the right way. Though peace and understanding. Emotions totally cloud the issues. What do you really need?

[Ria]

Blufire it is very late here. saying, I was way layed, was a statment of fact, not having a go at you.
Firstly I have plenty of friends here and out side PA who do not read or look at channeled information and we all get along fine.
'so do we'
This is a complete mystery to me as I do not go and bother people. I mostly ignore and do my best to stay out of dramas.
I can't see the point in them. I have stepped in where I see a dishonest or unjust treatment.
I am not taking a side, I just have my own interests. I do not know what you have been witnessing. for you to be so concerned

[mosquito]

Maybe I’m really naïve’ . . . . or really off base . . . . or really stupid. Is this or any conflict within this forum beyond resolving?

You are NONE of those things and yes, this conflict can be resolved !

This thread has provoked some of the most intelligent and thought provoking discussion we've seen in a while and we, as a community need to empower ourselves and decide how to move on. Thank you Blufire for suggesting that member from each "side" come together and come up with a verdict, but I suspect that won't work because the admin team have stated on many occasions that PA is not a democracy, so we probably need to wait for a decision from on-high, but that doesn't prevent us from petitioning Paul/Ilie.

Just an observation - you are clearly a doer, a woman of action, for which I take my hat off to you. You are doing what so many of us would like to do and you deserve a lot of respect for that. I like Dennis's idea of you having your own sub-forum (a la Wade Frasier), if you so desire. But ...... please please please bear with the rest of us who ARE NOT in a position to act in the same way as you. Just because we don't all have access to hundreds of thousands of dollars/pounds/euros/dinar etc. doesn't make us any less worthy; it doesn't make us lazy or apathetic. There are many members here with life situations that really don't enable them to just make a decision, get up, and get off-grid, even though their souls yearn for it. There are others (like myself) who've made the move, attempted what you're doing AND FAILED ! I can assure you that being thrown right back into the system is very disheartening, but I and others like me know that there is a reason and that we have to learn the lesson (if only someone would tell me what it is !) and then start again.

You are an inspiration and I hope we can all continue to learn from you into the future.
(PS - just noticed the diacritic in naive, I'm impressed !)

Suggestion (as others have made) why not have a thread for each channellee, to which their adherents can freely post and which the rest of us can read or ignore as desired. That seems like a good win/win scenario.

[Alan]

I found the following vBulletin mod that would seem to allow a user to identify entire forums to be ignored for that person. I think that would make everyone happy:

http://www.lampwrights.com/showthread.php?t=84

You know what that sounded so good till I read:


NO, this is NOT 4.x compatible.

:-(


OK, I Googled again and found the following, will this work?

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=272375

[etm567]

blufire, that is a unique twist: uninvited entities sneaking into the forum via the side door - through members.

I suspect that Bill and the admin/mod team would agree that, at times, the Avalon forum seems to be overrun with channeled material, and that having a spot for channeled material (with a big disclaimer banner) is not enough.

I offered a possible solution that I think is a fair compromise, allowing the material to remain but not become dominant. My suggestion was here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41078-Sheldan-Nidle-just-ate-my-cat-&p=432898&viewfull=1#post432898).

I understand that there could be crossovers into the main forum. For example, a channeled message predicts some specific event at a specific time and is correct - then it becomes newsworthy and could be the source for a thread in the General Discussion area.

I do understand how these channeled messages are, in a way, an antidote for gloom-and-doom. It is FUN to read about the cabal getting spanked or arrested or sent back to Source for a deconstruction, disinfection, and soul parts used in cosmic recycling. It is ENTERTAINING to envision fleets of invisible ships, zipping through the troposphere, firing away from another dimension and frying the chips in nuclear warheads. And, some of the messages are full of empathy and encouragement, and of course, that feels good.

From what some other members have written, and from my perspective, what may be most irritating is a sense that the channeled messages massage and pacify those who choose not to act, but rather, to wait for a savior. Our desire to snap our fellow members out of a holding pattern leads to frustration. Admittedly, it's our frustration, and we have to own it, but there are days when the forum is all a-flutter with channeled material - seemingly displacing non-channeled threads.

(For those whose major objection is a "call to inactivity"): We cannot force anyone to action (helping humanity, or even helping community, or even helping themselves with something as simple as a garden) if that person prefers inaction. It doesn't matter whether the inaction is supported by watching TV, getting entangled in addictive drugs or behaviors, or being content to wait for Jesus, Maitreya Buddha, or other ETs to swoop down and save the day. Those who have chosen not to act (yet) are not ready to act (yet.)

For those that don't want it, it would be good not to be confronted with an overwhelming dose of channeled material. For those that want it, is the approach that I suggested in my link above acceptable?


Dear Dennis,

What precisely do you suggest we do? I am all for action, but my personal circumstances are somewhat limiting, as I am kind of chronically ill and don't get out very much.

Some folks see "beaming" light as a kind of action. I'm not really one of those. What do you do to fight our enemies? Sorry I don't know. I probably should. Other folks seem to see coming onto this forum and expending copious amounts of energy and effort on criticizing other folks as "doing something." I'm not one of those either, I hope. (Maybe I am more than I would like to recognize, but then, aren't we all?)

By the way, I do not read all these channeled messages either, but I will certainly defend the right of those who have posted them to continue to do so. On any given day, I might be in the mood to read this, but not that, or maybe that over there, and not this one. But I certainly appreciate the choice, and I hope I continue to be allowed the privilege of choosing for myself. It is convenient to find so much material right here in one place, isn't it? Although, clearly, we are not all interested in the same things.

As far as there being too many of the channeled messages, I must admit, I am with those members of the forum who do not understand why you cannot just avoid them, if you do not want to read them? Sure, they may show up on the "Today's Posts" page, but that would be because they were posted, or because someone was interested enough to post a reply. But if you click on one of the other forums, you most likely won't run into any nasty channeled material that might otherwise ruin your day. :) Would you? In Conspiracies, or ET's, or contactees, you won't find yourself buried under channeled messages, will you?

As far as taking action, I'm kind of getting tired of responding to these remarks that you, and others, make over and over and over -- that these messages tell us to wait and do nothing. They do not. If you read them, you would see that that is the case -- I mean, they do not. But I'll bet you dollars to donuts that next week, or the week after, you will be right here saying that these channeled messages ask people to sit on their duffs and do nothing.

Same thing with criticisms other folks, who shall remain unnamed, make. Those criticisms do not hold water, when it comes down to it.

I'm not really excited enough to get serious about putting material together to write a response to these absolutely predictable, paint-by-the-numbers attacks that always say the same thing. I don't care what you think, I guess, or the others.... I do hope that those who want to post channeled material will not be shut down because seeing the threads there asking for you to click on them seems to do something unpleasant, and perhaps insinuates itself into your soul matrix, hypnotizing you, telling you, "Go to sleep.... Close your eyes.... You are getting sleepier and sleepier... Your eyelids are getting heavier and heavier. they are so heavy..." so that you will do nothing today to fight the bad guys off, which otherwise I am sure you are doing every day. And thank you for that.

I truly appreciate those who can get out there and do more than I can doing what they do for the rest of us. Thank you. And thank you again. God bless you for you that. (Sorry if that's a boo-boo. Maybe you are what my daughter describes as a gnostic atheist? Maybe just an agnostic atheist? That would be as opposed to an agnostic Deist, or a gnostic Deist, of course. I'm not too sure what I am, but she knows.

Anyway, thanks for the work you do. I'm sorry I can't do much. Please let those folks who want to post channeled material continue to do so, in the correct forum. I don't really think they are doing anything to force you to read those messages. In fact, the messages are not meant for you, I would guess. They are meant for other folks, the ones who like to read them. So, please absolutely free to ignore them entirely. Just turn your back on them. Walk away. Do not click. :)

ETM

[Anchor]

That one looks promising alamojo!

[gooty64]

Mandala:
Is it because you have personally been a victim and want to prevent others from this fate?

Well yes, to a degree it happened with me. And I can't stand seeing happen to the younger generation.

So, let's get real.....

[etm567]

I find supposed ET? dialogue very condescending...." My dears"...... "Loved ones".... The messages don't ring true, about as clear cut as the photo's. They also need spelling lessons.

CHuckle, chuckle. Sorry. Glass houses, anyone?

"They need spelling lessons."

So do you. The plural of photo is photos. Photo's is possessive. As in something belongs to the photo? Is that what you meant?

Seriously, might I suggest, if you find it condescending and do not like it, do not subject yourself to it? It will not jump out of the computer into your lap. You have to choose to open the thread, and then you have to choose to start reading it, and then you have to choose to continue reading it. Gee, life is full of choices, isn't it? If you find it so appalling, why are you reading it? Do you have masochistic tendencies?

Just asking.... And no offense intended. Honestly, I do not understand.

ETM

[etm567]

I would propose that Avalon retain the channeled material. (Hey, I've seen many many threads on Avalon that were not channeled material, where my discernment has the needle on my BS meter pegged into the red zone.) I'd like to propose that the Channeled Information section be:

1.) moved out of the "Spirituality" sub-forum
2.) a new subforum be created, "Channeled Information", just for channeled material
3.) the new Channeled Information subforum be removed from the "feed."4.) implement the feature for icons on the forum main page, indicating that a subforum has new content

I see a simple solution to the percieved problem being discussed here.

Perhaps we could remove any material posted in the "Channelled" section from appearing in the "Newest Posts" live feed. That way it doesn't flood the board, nor detract from other more pertinent topics (imo). For those who are that way inclined towards channeled material, the section would still remain intact and highly accesible.

Why? Can't you just skip it? I"m a member of the forum too, and I wouldn't want those messages to be "censored" and hidden somewhere. Why can't you just use your eyes, read whether or not a thread is from the channeling forum, and if it is, just DO NOT CLICK ON IT? Is that hard or something? Honestly, what do I not understand here?

Or is it the mere existence of these messages that offend some folks? It is perfectly all right for them to be offended, just do not require that I alter my activities because you don't agree with me, and I promise I won't require that you alter yours. How about that?

[etm567]

I don't think it's quite that simple.
For example, say that some forum members were constantly posting some information on the forum that is from dangerous blackop sources, designed to mislead and perhaps even plug readers into some kind of synthetic AI that could eventually lead to mind control.
(Some Avalon members believe that is the case with some of these generic channeled messages, and I, for one,think they could be correct.)
Or information that is unverifiable, and is actually designed only to sell books and make profits for the channelers, also creating a community base of fans who act in a facist manner, reporting members who begin asking intelligent questions, ridiculing, chastising and abusing them in a very condescending manner.
(That is what some of our new members have reported goes on behind the scenes with some of these channelers, such as Sheldan Nidle.)
So if that kind of info was being regularly posted on the regular Avalon forum, what do you suppose would happen?
I think the members and the Mods and probably even Bill Ryan would be up in arms, and the people who were posting that kind of stuff would be getting a whole lot of flak from the other members, until they finally desisted, or were asked to leave the forum.
Whether the intention of those members was to mislead, misinform, recruit, make some financial gain, or not is beside the point.
The point would be that Avalon was being misused and perverted to causes that are antithetical to it's true purpose.
Many of us believe that that is what is happening on the Channeled Information subforum.
The disclaimer is not enough to prevent the unfortunate results of this ongoing flood of what I consider to be thinly disguised disinfo.
And so many of us think that some other action is necessary, which is no different than what would be requested if this kind of thing were happening on any other part of Avalon.

What brought me to the Avalon Forum was the different categories that it has. This place is very versatile. And that is what I love. There is something for everyone. Everyone is different. Everyone has their own interest. So what if there is a channel sub forum?? I do not understand the point of this thread. If you don't like it.... don't read that section. I happen to enjoy some of those channels. And yes there are some I do not like. But then again its to each their own.
By the way there are some sections that I do not agree with but I do not go around making threads about it because I know and am aware that there are others here that enjoy them. We do not always have to like and enjoy all threads on this forum. Just enjoy the ones that you like and participate in the discussion. That is what a forum is. A place to share your feelings, sharing news, sharing information etc....

Dear Onawah,

How about being specific? I mean, cite some specific instances, and provide some of the reasons you see something specific as being dis-info? There is some that I agree with you is certainly so. But not a lot of that is making it onto this forum, I don't think.

Personally, I do not read Sheldan Nidle. But I also don't think it should be up to me or to you to tell someone else, or a few others, that they should not be allowed to read him and discuss him on this site. I think that is one of the things the site is for.

Greg Giles I think is not disinfo. These days what seems to be bothering so many of you is that there is so much material. I saw someone complain the other day that it seemed kind of like cheerleading. Well, that is precisely what it is.

Something to remember is that these messages are honestly not intended for everyone. Do you believe that there are starseeds and Indigos? I do. I don't think I am one. Some people are very much more loving and kind and compassionate than I can be on an average day. These messages are meant for those that enjoy reading them. So, please, do not read them.

If you are worried that they are entrapping folks, I would really like to see some examples.

I tried to bring this up a while back. There is a bunch of fake GF stuff, but there is also GF stuff that does not seem to me to be fake. The fake stuff is quite obvious. It is hate-filled, racist, fear-mongering garbage that is just as plain as the nose on your face. THen there are others who pop up and seem to be imitating this or that personality, but who seem to ring very hollow, who just don't sound right, who are just plain out of character.

But lately, most of these messages are quite general, and they do seem to be of the cheerleading variety. And what is wrong with that? Some folks appreciate the kind intentions. It makes perfect sense to me that, in the run-up to December, these messages would be coming fast and furious. There is the Ra Material, which I do trust, and in it Ra said this would happen. He/they also said the whole discernment issue is pretty central. He/they said they would not provide proof. It would be up to us to figure out what is the truth, and what isn't. And that is part of what we are supposed to be doing -- figuring this out, making real choices about what to believe and what not to believe, and why.

Personally, I think if this whole discussion did become specific, that might help a bit. If you want to read a message and then critique it, that is one thing. This is a forum. You can do that. Of course, one would hope you (not you, anyone) would do it without insulting anyone, without deliberately putting anyone down. But then we could engage in a discussion of something specific, rather than this general attack on "channeled material" as if it is all the same, when it clearly is not.

That is precisely what I find so tiring. The same remarks, over and over and over, but never anything specific. It always seems to be aimed at pretty much all channeled messages.

If you feel that some of this is AI, could you present some specific examples, with perhaps some evidence, or the thinking that led you to your conclusions?

Sorry I'm so long winded.

ETM

[9eagle9]

Yes, You DID see, didn't you, where I stated emphatically in my response to you that I denounced you, personally, and without question or mistake, as a cultist. I reported you as such and even created an entire thread devoted to your cult activities. I must have made it clear to you that I was denouncing you as a cultist since you got the idea from *somewhere* that I proclaimed you a cultist.

So.. I'm not sure why there is any uncertainty.

In my post of course you will see that I said nothing of the sort. And I suppose if you are going to see things like that in my post you will see other things that are not there either. So there's really no point in responding to this post.



Because and now I'm going into repeating myself ad nauseam until I turn blue in the face, and my guts turn outside and spill onto the hot pavement to sizzle up in a cloud of steam like fry steaks.

It's because the people who push this stuff cannot seperate back into their own self identity, that is what cult activity doe to a person.. They can't separate themselves from the message, so they drag it everyplace they go and when the message is critiqued the people who can't separate themselves from it feel attacked.


Well one thing the GFL has done is cause lots of heightened emotions around here; frustration, anger, resentment, dissension, blaming. It has been a few months, it seems about time for more drama and division around here. Sorry, but this radiates negative energy. Does anyone else feel this. I feel that people are being attacked not the messages.

I see that you quoted me and I do want to ask you do you feel that I am a cultist? I have never followed the GFL but I have read it before. I'm not pushing this stuff, I'm not in a cult, matter of fact I teach anti-cult indoctrination to students. I know that many on the forum like reading it. Maybe the GFL has gotten some people to wake up,which is a good thing, strange, but good. Couldn't we better do this by having a section Pro-GFL and then a section for debate or opposing views?


Folks, why would you get yourself so worked up over this? Is it because you have personally been a victim and want to prevent others from this fate? The fact that it has its own little alcove with a "we do not endorse this", kind of says, read at your own risk. Is this worthy of your time and energy?

It seems you are really letting this get to you and cause you terrific stress, as a mediator, unless both sides are requesting solution, I would consider it a non-issue.

Bill and many others have said we possibly and probably have very tough times ahead of us. We need all of us with a united spirit

I'm not meaning any disrespect to anyone, just looking for what you believe we need to do, why it would benefit the whole and what steps we need to take in negotiating a win-win solution for all. If it's not win-win, it's win-lose. Is this what we want?

Bluefire, you and others seem very passionate about this.

So if you guys would, state your reasons for what you would like to have happen and why it would benefit Avalon. Don't attack any people at all for who they are or their beliefs. Also keep thinking win-win for all parties if not, it is a compromise and someone loses. Let's do this the right way. Though peace and understanding. Emotions totally cloud the issues. What do you really need?

[Carmen]

There is much on this forum I do not agree with but I would never seek to curtail other members opportunity and right to post and read that which I do not choose to read. Each member has their own unique and individual perspective on every topic. Our very differences make the tapestry of humanity rich in diversity.

I do strongly object to this concentrated thrust to get rid of or curtail the channelled messages! This bias comes from the top down! Surely, what Bill has at the top of the channelled forum is sufficient. This seeking to control what members read is utter nonsense and an insult to our intelligence, our powers of discernment!

I do not read all the channelled stuff. Some does not interest me. Same with the rest of the threads on Avalon. Surely this is what all members do?! Read some and leave the rest! I have always reserved the right to read what I want to read and I sincerely reserve that right for all others.

Maybe some are just addicted to the emotional energy of attack? I dunno. Beats me why all this fuss!

[ThePythonicCow]

A Tale of Two Clans

Once upon a time there lived two clans on one island. They had lived together a long time and sometimes interbred. Often times, in day to day affairs, they paid little attention to which clan they descended from.

There was one long standing difference however. One clan descended from ocean loving people, and could swim with the dolphins all day with ease. The other clan descended from mountain loving people, and could run with the goats on the mountain trails all day with ease.

Something was threatening their island. There was much debate as to the nature of the threat. Some thought a great tsunami would wash over all the lower lying lands on their island and any other such island in their vast ocean. Others thought the ancient volcano at the center of their island would erupt catastrophically, destroying all life on their island.

The water loving descendants were busy building boats and learning to navigate to other islands. They seemed to fear the volcano most.

The mountain loving descendants were busy building shelters and finding trails in the high mountains. They seemed to fear the tsunami most.

The water loving descendants found the efforts of the mountain lovers worrisome - a distracting drain on resources and a waste of precious time. The mountain lovers felt the same of the efforts of the water lovers.

Some members of each clan suspected that there were infiltrators in the other clan, from a far away but dangerous tribe that had long been warned of in stories past down through the ages. They suspected these infiltrators were fanning the flames of disagreement, seeking the ruin of all who lived on that island, regardless of their clan heritage.

Much was on the line .. tensions were rising ..

(... I don't know how this story ends ... sorry :).)

[giovonni]

this thread is becoming divisive and pointless...


Please remember this is a private forum ... Anyone who has been fortunate enough to find their way here and be invited to be a member... Only need to read this disclaimer from the forum administration. Anything else doesn't really matter... this forum is not a democracy.


Project Avalon and Bill Ryan do not endorse the information presented in this section
and accepts no responsibility for psychological, spiritual or metaphysical effects
either negative or positive to individuals who read these threads.
User discretion is advised.
We ask that following any post of these messages that a link to the source
be provided so that readers may follow up on the authenticity of the message and/or messenger

[onawah]

I think that I and other members, such as DreamsinDigital and 9eagle9 and Gooty and ljwheat have all been more than sufficiently specific in making our points.
I can't speak for them, but I have already said all I have to say.
In any case, it's up to Bill Ryan and the Mods to decide if any changes will be made.

I think all the arguments have been stated both pro and con, although it has been spread out over many different threads.
update: There's a very good ongoing thread here that speaks to the issue of cults and the GLF:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41618-Whistleblower-speaks-against-Galactic-Federation



I don't think it's quite that simple.
For example, say that some forum members were constantly posting some information on the forum that is from dangerous blackop sources, designed to mislead and perhaps even plug readers into some kind of synthetic AI that could eventually lead to mind control.
(Some Avalon members believe that is the case with some of these generic channeled messages, and I, for one,think they could be correct.)
Or information that is unverifiable, and is actually designed only to sell books and make profits for the channelers, also creating a community base of fans who act in a facist manner, reporting members who begin asking intelligent questions, ridiculing, chastising and abusing them in a very condescending manner.
(That is what some of our new members have reported goes on behind the scenes with some of these channelers, such as Sheldan Nidle.)
So if that kind of info was being regularly posted on the regular Avalon forum, what do you suppose would happen?
I think the members and the Mods and probably even Bill Ryan would be up in arms, and the people who were posting that kind of stuff would be getting a whole lot of flak from the other members, until they finally desisted, or were asked to leave the forum.
Whether the intention of those members was to mislead, misinform, recruit, make some financial gain, or not is beside the point.
The point would be that Avalon was being misused and perverted to causes that are antithetical to it's true purpose.
Many of us believe that that is what is happening on the Channeled Information subforum.
The disclaimer is not enough to prevent the unfortunate results of this ongoing flood of what I consider to be thinly disguised disinfo.
And so many of us think that some other action is necessary, which is no different than what would be requested if this kind of thing were happening on any other part of Avalon.

What brought me to the Avalon Forum was the different categories that it has. This place is very versatile. And that is what I love. There is something for everyone. Everyone is different. Everyone has their own interest. So what if there is a channel sub forum?? I do not understand the point of this thread. If you don't like it.... don't read that section. I happen to enjoy some of those channels. And yes there are some I do not like. But then again its to each their own.
By the way there are some sections that I do not agree with but I do not go around making threads about it because I know and am aware that there are others here that enjoy them. We do not always have to like and enjoy all threads on this forum. Just enjoy the ones that you like and participate in the discussion. That is what a forum is. A place to share your feelings, sharing news, sharing information etc....

Dear Onawah,

How about being specific? I mean, cite some specific instances, and provide some of the reasons you see something specific as being dis-info? There is some that I agree with you is certainly so. But not a lot of that is making it onto this forum, I don't think.

Personally, I do not read Sheldan Nidle. But I also don't think it should be up to me or to you to tell someone else, or a few others, that they should not be allowed to read him and discuss him on this site. I think that is one of the things the site is for.

Greg Giles I think is not disinfo. These days what seems to be bothering so many of you is that there is so much material. I saw someone complain the other day that it seemed kind of like cheerleading. Well, that is precisely what it is.

Something to remember is that these messages are honestly not intended for everyone. Do you believe that there are starseeds and Indigos? I do. I don't think I am one. Some people are very much more loving and kind and compassionate than I can be on an average day. These messages are meant for those that enjoy reading them. So, please, do not read them.

If you are worried that they are entrapping folks, I would really like to see some examples.

I tried to bring this up a while back. There is a bunch of fake GF stuff, but there is also GF stuff that does not seem to me to be fake. The fake stuff is quite obvious. It is hate-filled, racist, fear-mongering garbage that is just as plain as the nose on your face. THen there are others who pop up and seem to be imitating this or that personality, but who seem to ring very hollow, who just don't sound right, who are just plain out of character.

But lately, most of these messages are quite general, and they do seem to be of the cheerleading variety. And what is wrong with that? Some folks appreciate the kind intentions. It makes perfect sense to me that, in the run-up to December, these messages would be coming fast and furious. There is the Ra Material, which I do trust, and in it Ra said this would happen. He/they also said the whole discernment issue is pretty central. He/they said they would not provide proof. It would be up to us to figure out what is the truth, and what isn't. And that is part of what we are supposed to be doing -- figuring this out, making real choices about what to believe and what not to believe, and why.

Personally, I think if this whole discussion did become specific, that might help a bit. If you want to read a message and then critique it, that is one thing. This is a forum. You can do that. Of course, one would hope you (not you, anyone) would do it without insulting anyone, without deliberately putting anyone down. But then we could engage in a discussion of something specific, rather than this general attack on "channeled material" as if it is all the same, when it clearly is not.

That is precisely what I find so tiring. The same remarks, over and over and over, but never anything specific. It always seems to be aimed at pretty much all channeled messages.

If you feel that some of this is AI, could you present some specific examples, with perhaps some evidence, or the thinking that led you to your conclusions?

Sorry I'm so long winded.

ETM

[blufire]

Paul . . . .thank you for the intriguing bedtime story. I intuit some wise hints among the story of The Tale of Two Clans. I will take your story with me as I fall into my much needed bed.

Although as I read the tale I couldn’t help but hear a bit of ‘bluegrass banjo’ which then brought to mind of a story of two other clan families that is a familiar story in these ‘hills’ . . . . . I do know the outcome of that true tale. .

Care for each others hearts Avalon as if it were your own. . . . . . .





A Tale of Two Clans

Once upon a time there lived two clans on one island. They had lived together a long time and sometimes interbred. Often times, in day to day affairs, they paid little attention to which clan they descended from.

There was one long standing difference however. One clan descended from ocean loving people, and could swim with the dolphins all day with ease. The other clan descended from mountain loving people, and could run with the goats on the mountain trails all day with ease.

Something was threatening their island. There was much debate as to the nature of the threat. Some thought a great tsunami would wash over all the lower lying lands on their island and any other such island in their vast ocean. Others thought the ancient volcano at the center of their island would erupt catastrophically, destroying all life on their island.

The water loving descendants were busy building boats and learning to navigate to other islands. They seemed to fear the volcano most.

The mountain loving descendants were busy building shelters and finding trails in the high mountains. They seemed to fear the tsunami most.

The water loving descendants found the efforts of the mountain lovers worrisome - a distracting drain on resources and a waste of precious time. The mountain lovers felt the same of the efforts of the water lovers.

Some members of each clan suspected that there were infiltrators in the other clan, from a far away but dangerous tribe that had long been warned of in stories past down through the ages. They suspected these infiltrators were fanning the flames of disagreement, seeking the ruin of all who lived on that island, regardless of their clan heritage.

Much was on the line .. tensions were rising ..

(... I don't know how this story ends ... sorry :).)

[Strat]

Good lord there is a lot going on here. I'm just going to address what I see as the point of this thread.

I don't mean to sound overly critical and if I do in the following reply then I'm sorry. You're one of Avalon's MVP's and I want you sticking around.

Your initial complaint regarded the channeled info threads. I think I am on your side, I do not like channeled info, and in a more open social scenario I would debate against it. However, I think a damn important issue is not pressing ones beliefs on another. So you and I just have to let it be. Some folks will spend the majority of their time in those threads and that is their right.

Also everyone should feel safe to post what they want without fear of ridicule. During the era of "that of which we shall not speak" I actually had someone send me a private message thanking me for voicing my opinion in a thread. They agreed with me on whatever post I made but did not feel safe to do so publicly.



So can we be self governing? I have been giving this a tremendous amount of thought because of the massive project I’m about to jump in the middle of. How does a community set up a government that is for the good of all involved without falling into the same traps and paradigms of past governments? Can we identify and implement a benevolent, people empowering system?

We are supposedly a forum of forward thinking individuals with a desire to implement standards that will change the world or at least the immediate world we each inhabit. If we cannot come to a workable decision on this forum then how in world can we hope to be leaders or stewards of a community?

This is an extremely complex issue to address. I think it deserves a thread of its own to get away from some of the static.

My quick .02 is to watch the wording used when addressing all these folks about governing. Again, we really really need a new thread for this. I'm all for this idea though, we just gotta try and do our best to tackle this issue.


There is literally thousand and thousands of posts and hours of incredibly important and profound information on this forum . . . .are we going to allow it to disappear in the apathy of a dysfunctional family or are we going to make a stand to be compassionate and decisive in how we use this information to our advantage as a powerful alternative community?

This is a great idea and is absolutely do-able with a solid, dedicated team. A while ago Bill posted a thread regarding Avalon's direction. The forum is here, it's been here for a while, but now what?

We should catalog and categorize the information within Avalon in a way which is easily accessible.


So I feel the first dialogue should be identifying the problem or disruption or what is causing disharmony.

The disharmony will unfortunately continue for a very long time. Its causes are chemicals in our brains, influencing our emotions. If someone slapped you in the face, you will be upset.

For whatever reason the internet has this effect - albeit not as extreme - which controls ones actions. It's just too hard for many people to ignore trash talk. Some folks just have to say that one remark, that one-liner to shut up so-and-so.

I imagine dropping screen names and using real names would help, I do like my anonymity though.

[Dennis Leahy]

blufire, that is a unique twist: uninvited entities sneaking into the forum via the side door - through members.

I suspect that Bill and the admin/mod team would agree that, at times, the Avalon forum seems to be overrun with channeled material, and that having a spot for channeled material (with a big disclaimer banner) is not enough.

I offered a possible solution that I think is a fair compromise, allowing the material to remain but not become dominant. My suggestion was here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41078-Sheldan-Nidle-just-ate-my-cat-&p=432898&viewfull=1#post432898).

I understand that there could be crossovers into the main forum. For example, a channeled message predicts some specific event at a specific time and is correct - then it becomes newsworthy and could be the source for a thread in the General Discussion area.

I do understand how these channeled messages are, in a way, an antidote for gloom-and-doom. It is FUN to read about the cabal getting spanked or arrested or sent back to Source for a deconstruction, disinfection, and soul parts used in cosmic recycling. It is ENTERTAINING to envision fleets of invisible ships, zipping through the troposphere, firing away from another dimension and frying the chips in nuclear warheads. And, some of the messages are full of empathy and encouragement, and of course, that feels good.

From what some other members have written, and from my perspective, what may be most irritating is a sense that the channeled messages massage and pacify those who choose not to act, but rather, to wait for a savior. Our desire to snap our fellow members out of a holding pattern leads to frustration. Admittedly, it's our frustration, and we have to own it, but there are days when the forum is all a-flutter with channeled material - seemingly displacing non-channeled threads.

(For those whose major objection is a "call to inactivity"): We cannot force anyone to action (helping humanity, or even helping community, or even helping themselves with something as simple as a garden) if that person prefers inaction. It doesn't matter whether the inaction is supported by watching TV, getting entangled in addictive drugs or behaviors, or being content to wait for Jesus, Maitreya Buddha, or other ETs to swoop down and save the day. Those who have chosen not to act (yet) are not ready to act (yet.)

For those that don't want it, it would be good not to be confronted with an overwhelming dose of channeled material. For those that want it, is the approach that I suggested in my link above acceptable?


Dear Dennis,

What precisely do you suggest we do? I am all for action, but my personal circumstances are somewhat limiting, as I am kind of chronically ill and don't get out very much.

Some folks see "beaming" light as a kind of action. I'm not really one of those. What do you do to fight our enemies? Sorry I don't know. I probably should. Other folks seem to see coming onto this forum and expending copious amounts of energy and effort on criticizing other folks as "doing something." I'm not one of those either, I hope. (Maybe I am more than I would like to recognize, but then, aren't we all?)

By the way, I do not read all these channeled messages either, but I will certainly defend the right of those who have posted them to continue to do so. On any given day, I might be in the mood to read this, but not that, or maybe that over there, and not this one. But I certainly appreciate the choice, and I hope I continue to be allowed the privilege of choosing for myself. It is convenient to find so much material right here in one place, isn't it? Although, clearly, we are not all interested in the same things.

As far as there being too many of the channeled messages, I must admit, I am with those members of the forum who do not understand why you cannot just avoid them, if you do not want to read them? Sure, they may show up on the "Today's Posts" page, but that would be because they were posted, or because someone was interested enough to post a reply. But if you click on one of the other forums, you most likely won't run into any nasty channeled material that might otherwise ruin your day. :) Would you? In Conspiracies, or ET's, or contactees, you won't find yourself buried under channeled messages, will you?

As far as taking action, I'm kind of getting tired of responding to these remarks that you, and others, make over and over and over -- that these messages tell us to wait and do nothing. They do not. If you read them, you would see that that is the case -- I mean, they do not. But I'll bet you dollars to donuts that next week, or the week after, you will be right here saying that these channeled messages ask people to sit on their duffs and do nothing.

Same thing with criticisms other folks, who shall remain unnamed, make. Those criticisms do not hold water, when it comes down to it.

I'm not really excited enough to get serious about putting material together to write a response to these absolutely predictable, paint-by-the-numbers attacks that always say the same thing. I don't care what you think, I guess, or the others.... I do hope that those who want to post channeled material will not be shut down because seeing the threads there asking for you to click on them seems to do something unpleasant, and perhaps insinuates itself into your soul matrix, hypnotizing you, telling you, "Go to sleep.... Close your eyes.... You are getting sleepier and sleepier... Your eyelids are getting heavier and heavier. they are so heavy..." so that you will do nothing today to fight the bad guys off, which otherwise I am sure you are doing every day. And thank you for that.

I truly appreciate those who can get out there and do more than I can doing what they do for the rest of us. Thank you. And thank you again. God bless you for you that. (Sorry if that's a boo-boo. Maybe you are what my daughter describes as a gnostic atheist? Maybe just an agnostic atheist? That would be as opposed to an agnostic Deist, or a gnostic Deist, of course. I'm not too sure what I am, but she knows.

Anyway, thanks for the work you do. I'm sorry I can't do much. Please let those folks who want to post channeled material continue to do so, in the correct forum. I don't really think they are doing anything to force you to read those messages. In fact, the messages are not meant for you, I would guess. They are meant for other folks, the ones who like to read them. So, please absolutely free to ignore them entirely. Just turn your back on them. Walk away. Do not click. :)

ETM
Hi ETM.

May I call you "E?"

In your 7th paragraph above, you said "I don't care what you think", so I probably should not bother to write this, but because I do care what you think, I will.

First, please don't use a tactic of accusing me of something I have not done. Fire away when I do.

I'll take a few of your points in the order you made them.

What precisely do you suggest we do? Look in my sig line, and you'll find a link to my suggestions for a top-down approach for US citizens to gain control of the US government. So, that's what I think we should do, from that top-down angle. In that document, for those that are not US citizens, I request support for a citizens movement - knowing that displacing the Cabal-picked politicians and judges with ordinary US citizens will not only change the US, but the world.

Since then, I have had a bit of an awakening (via a brilliant guy at an Occupy encampment), and I now see the bottom-up approach (that I had already been investing my time and energy in) as equally critical and a perfect companion to a top-down approach. Blufire is bursting at the seams trying to find a comfortable space to share some bottom-up (community-based) approaches to "what to do." For my thoughts on adding a bottom-up approach to the top-down approach, you'll need to wait a little longer. I am trying to finish up The Reset Button rev 2.0, and will post it as soon as I can. Until then, and after, I recommend that people do whatever they can in their power to support their local community in becoming as self-sustaining and eco-friendly as possible. Get to know your neighbors and your community. Break bread with them, talk with them, laugh and dance with them (if possible.)

I also do believe in displacing fear, sending out love and compassion, and (though I don't pretend to understand the quantum mechanics) I do participate in "Global Brain" type of metaphysical "mind-melding" of positive intent events.

I am studying why I don't yet seem to be ready to give up the "Level 10" thinking and join Wade Frazier's "Level 12 Lambs", in terms of the Free Energy paradigm change. So, even though I am personally not really helping Wade (yet), I'd suggest that folks study Wade's work and find out if you have the right stuff to help him.

If you read the stuff I write, you'd probably already know how I'd answer "what precisely suggest we do."


I do not read all these channeled messages either, but I will certainly defend the right of those who have posted them to continue to do so.
...
But I certainly appreciate the choice, and I hope I continue to be allowed the privilege of choosing for myself.
...
As far as there being too many of the channeled messages, I must admit, I am with those members of the forum who do not understand why you cannot just avoid them, if you do not want to read them?
...
Please let those folks who want to post channeled material continue to do so, in the correct forum.Did you take the time to click the link to see what I proposed? "I would propose that Avalon retain the channeled material." And then recommended separating channeled material from spirituality material. And, removing channeled material from the feed, but make another way to let folks know there are new messages in the channeled material thread. That was the big idea. Not censorship. A compromise suggestion for (what I suspect is the vast majority of) members that are not too keen on channeled material "flooding" the forum, but who are not adamant that it be banned.

Did you note what I wrote about the people posting the channeled material?
"[I]My intuition says that each of the people posting this material on Avalon is a good person, sincere, loving, and compassionate. Read not only their words (not the channeled words, the members' words), but read a bit between the lines of their words, and you'll see why I conclude that. These folks deserve our compassion too, not our ridicule and scorn."

That is my opinion, though I note that a couple of members feel that (unwittingly or deliberately) the folks posting channeled messages are damaging the forum, promoting cult-like behavior, etc. 9eagle9 even took the considerable time to completely tear apart one of the channeled messages, nearly line-by-line, to underscore the underlying programming.

Personally, I have not read any channeled message posted at Avalon (and I probably read at least a dozen - maybe even two dozen) that I believe is coming from an ET or ED being, or even a highly evolved human being in spirit form. I think the ones I read were all made up by humans (almost undoubtedly US citizens) with an agenda - and the agenda "To Serve Man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmCkrF9YLpg)" seems not to serve mankind. (the link is attempted humor) But even so, (unless I start agreeing with those that see a truly corrosive agenda), I am recommending that the channeled material remain here for those that want to read it.


As far as taking action, I'm kind of getting tired of responding to these remarks that you, and others, make over and over and over -- that these messages tell us to wait and do nothing. Well, I'm not sure what I can say on that one - that is my opinion, from the cluster of messages I have read. Maybe the ETs have channeled some specific steps to take for humanity to defeat the Dark Cabal, and I just didn't see it.


I truly appreciate those who can get out there and do more than I can doing what they do for the rest of us. Thank you. And thank you again. God bless you for you that. (Sorry if that's a boo-boo. Maybe you are what my daughter describes as a gnostic atheist? Maybe just an agnostic atheist? That would be as opposed to an agnostic Deist, or a gnostic Deist, of course. I'm not too sure what I am, but she knows. I have to say I chuckled. I actually enjoy snarky humor, and find myself using it as well.

I'll accept your 'thanks' if I ever do something that matters. Until then, I'll keep trying. Oh, and as for how to classify myself in a term someone could enter into the "religion" column on a survey, I don't know. I have more questions than answers. I think we are are all teeny tiny pieces of God/Source.

Dennis

[eileenrose]

I've been asking for a change in this forum since I rejoined it. As I have witnessed what happens when any community is side lined. It just goes no where.

I'm pretty sure this forum is reaching the end of its usefulness.

Most people don't like to think in those terms, in fact they run away from feeling loss. Even loss as meaningless as a bunch of words on a computer screen (which is all that this it is....in reality....as we never know for sure who is behind the words listed). We are not a real community, based on land, something that can be seen, heard and felt. We are all reaching for the same comfort, feelings of safety, but we are going in the direction we have been programmed to go-which in the Western world, in this supposed class-less society (what a joke that idea is), is down ward path to oblivion (I like to see someone argue that one with me). Some people are just going down slower (sinking speed) than the rest of their fellow humans. To me that is a much more interesting story to explore than why some people resist change (always the same answer....because they can).

I don't mind the channelings as I know they are not real. I just ignore people who preach them. I studied them in-depth and found them lacking in resourcefulness (they didn't help any). It doesn't matter if we get rid of them or not. It is the process of looking at them (only) that interest me. Do we each have a say, or are we being told how to think by moderators who are intent at keeping the status quo?

don't need discernment to answer that question.

[Sabrina]

I truly am sorry Ria and I guess I should include Sabrina also . . . I was only trying to gather people from “both sides” to try to bring this channeling controversy to a healthy positive (as much as possible) conclusion, so we could move forward a little more united.

Ria I know you and others feel you have been disrespected and perhaps even a bit bullied but, so do we. Its’ a mutual standoff that is harming the forum. We can’t just pretend it doesn’t exist. There’s an antagonistical, passive aggressive showing from both sides everyday . . . .its childish (both sides) and destructive.

I was not trying to ‘way lay’ you by asking you to join in the discussion and Sabrina I am not trying to divide the forum . . . far far from it

Is this really what you both (ria and Sabrina) hear from my post #71 and #50 and the past few posts?

Maybe I’m really naïve’ . . . . or really off base . . . . or really stupid. Is this or any conflict within this forum beyond resolving?

Blufire - a healthy, positive conclusion would be to let members read what they want to read, use their own intuition and find what resonates with them - and leave the rest! There are some non-channled threads which are questionable and no doubt some whistleblowers are more plausible than others. Others don't go on and on about it. What is destructive is trying to censor some material. I keep repeating this, but we are ALL grown ups. Why use all this energy trying to restrict what some want to read, while there are important events going on at the moment. Resolution does not come through restriction and censorship. Why restrict what others want to read - that's the question? Channeled info., non channeled info. - some is interesting, some isn't - read what you want and leave the rest. Really simple isn't it?

[9eagle9]

Onawah, I commisserate, but I do know you CAN"T talk about these things. They're are not even reading the posts, their just reacting to implications of 'unfairness' and 'censorship' because of their self identification is wound up with those sorts of things. They think we're talking about excluding people and were not. The Oneness program is running (previously called herd mentality progam)

It is impossible to talk about this in a rational manner , because the point gets lost as people don't read the posts, they just react based on how tender they are about 'unfairness' and censorship'

You have a dozen people who are talking about program assilimation, who are aware of the actual topic, and then the remainder wanting to Dr. Phil it all, how people feel and making it all about them.

You see this pattern EVERY time we discuss topics like this. Look at the reactions:

"I don't read the stuff but we should let it stay."

They haven't read the material but suddenly have enough authority about it to determine that it shouldn't be examined. Based on what?

Or

"I don't care about the stuff but we should it let it stay."

So why do you even care enough to think it should stay?

These are people not even aware of the material, aware of the topic, not using any critical thinking skills, not taking time to access anything, not coming from a place of previous experience or study but feel that their opinion based only on feelings should carry some weight. Evenif they don't care about the maerial at all, or have even read it, they think should have a important say in the matter. They will overwhelm any rational fact even as it becomes an obviated pattern of non-thought.

Is it annoying? Yes. Are we supposed to be annoyed? Oh no, that's not a loving attitude.

This morning a friend of mine showed his blueprints for a house he wants to build. So he's pointing out this wall, and that sort of window, and that sort of gable so I said, Won't it hurt the wall if you place the gable above. And will the sliding glass door be offended if you exclude it from the schematic. And he is just looking at me like I'm a twist. That's not the point he says, getting frustrated. So then I continue play arond his blue prints and say, oh the bathroom door feels badly because its not as large as the kitchen door. He started getting pissed at me.

Finally he says, "Knock it off, you sound like an idiot," And I say yeah, "I'm doing it deliberately but you know there are people out there who don't do that deliberately and have no idea they are doing it. And even if you asked them to stop, they couldn't. "






I think that I and other members, such as DreamsinDigital and 9eagle9 and Gooty and ljwheat have all been more than sufficiently specific in making our points.
I can't speak for them, but I have already said all I have to say.
In any case, it's up to Bill Ryan and the Mods to decide if any changes will be made.

I think all the arguments have been stated both pro and con, although it has been spread out over many different threads.
update: There's a very good ongoing thread here that speaks to the issue of cults and the GLF:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41618-Whistleblower-speaks-against-Galactic-Federation



I don't think it's quite that simple.
For example, say that some forum members were constantly posting some information on the forum that is from dangerous blackop sources, designed to mislead and perhaps even plug readers into some kind of synthetic AI that could eventually lead to mind control.
(Some Avalon members believe that is the case with some of these generic channeled messages, and I, for one,think they could be correct.)
Or information that is unverifiable, and is actually designed only to sell books and make profits for the channelers, also creating a community base of fans who act in a facist manner, reporting members who begin asking intelligent questions, ridiculing, chastising and abusing them in a very condescending manner.
(That is what some of our new members have reported goes on behind the scenes with some of these channelers, such as Sheldan Nidle.)
So if that kind of info was being regularly posted on the regular Avalon forum, what do you suppose would happen?
I think the members and the Mods and probably even Bill Ryan would be up in arms, and the people who were posting that kind of stuff would be getting a whole lot of flak from the other members, until they finally desisted, or were asked to leave the forum.
Whether the intention of those members was to mislead, misinform, recruit, make some financial gain, or not is beside the point.
The point would be that Avalon was being misused and perverted to causes that are antithetical to it's true purpose.
Many of us believe that that is what is happening on the Channeled Information subforum.
The disclaimer is not enough to prevent the unfortunate results of this ongoing flood of what I consider to be thinly disguised disinfo.
And so many of us think that some other action is necessary, which is no different than what would be requested if this kind of thing were happening on any other part of Avalon.

What brought me to the Avalon Forum was the different categories that it has. This place is very versatile. And that is what I love. There is something for everyone. Everyone is different. Everyone has their own interest. So what if there is a channel sub forum?? I do not understand the point of this thread. If you don't like it.... don't read that section. I happen to enjoy some of those channels. And yes there are some I do not like. But then again its to each their own.
By the way there are some sections that I do not agree with but I do not go around making threads about it because I know and am aware that there are others here that enjoy them. We do not always have to like and enjoy all threads on this forum. Just enjoy the ones that you like and participate in the discussion. That is what a forum is. A place to share your feelings, sharing news, sharing information etc....

Dear Onawah,

How about being specific? I mean, cite some specific instances, and provide some of the reasons you see something specific as being dis-info? There is some that I agree with you is certainly so. But not a lot of that is making it onto this forum, I don't think.

Personally, I do not read Sheldan Nidle. But I also don't think it should be up to me or to you to tell someone else, or a few others, that they should not be allowed to read him and discuss him on this site. I think that is one of the things the site is for.

Greg Giles I think is not disinfo. These days what seems to be bothering so many of you is that there is so much material. I saw someone complain the other day that it seemed kind of like cheerleading. Well, that is precisely what it is.

Something to remember is that these messages are honestly not intended for everyone. Do you believe that there are starseeds and Indigos? I do. I don't think I am one. Some people are very much more loving and kind and compassionate than I can be on an average day. These messages are meant for those that enjoy reading them. So, please, do not read them.

If you are worried that they are entrapping folks, I would really like to see some examples.

I tried to bring this up a while back. There is a bunch of fake GF stuff, but there is also GF stuff that does not seem to me to be fake. The fake stuff is quite obvious. It is hate-filled, racist, fear-mongering garbage that is just as plain as the nose on your face. THen there are others who pop up and seem to be imitating this or that personality, but who seem to ring very hollow, who just don't sound right, who are just plain out of character.

But lately, most of these messages are quite general, and they do seem to be of the cheerleading variety. And what is wrong with that? Some folks appreciate the kind intentions. It makes perfect sense to me that, in the run-up to December, these messages would be coming fast and furious. There is the Ra Material, which I do trust, and in it Ra said this would happen. He/they also said the whole discernment issue is pretty central. He/they said they would not provide proof. It would be up to us to figure out what is the truth, and what isn't. And that is part of what we are supposed to be doing -- figuring this out, making real choices about what to believe and what not to believe, and why.

Personally, I think if this whole discussion did become specific, that might help a bit. If you want to read a message and then critique it, that is one thing. This is a forum. You can do that. Of course, one would hope you (not you, anyone) would do it without insulting anyone, without deliberately putting anyone down. But then we could engage in a discussion of something specific, rather than this general attack on "channeled material" as if it is all the same, when it clearly is not.

That is precisely what I find so tiring. The same remarks, over and over and over, but never anything specific. It always seems to be aimed at pretty much all channeled messages.

If you feel that some of this is AI, could you present some specific examples, with perhaps some evidence, or the thinking that led you to your conclusions?

Sorry I'm so long winded.

ETM

[blufire]

Okay, I’m going to take a stab at this from another angle. I am going to be as black and white as possible, logical and brief on each point. Please read entire post and can we keep debate and dialogue based from this post and stay on topic. . . . please . . .

(1) Indisputable and Unquestionable Fact: Posting long passages of outside text regardless of relevance is prohibited. Any time text or link is posted it is required to provide a short summary in posters own words or short sentence from text that clarifies relevance of posting

Ilie Pandia (PA administrator) in post #44 stated forum rules (this backs up above statement)


I've seen a lot of the members here posting full copy pasted text from outside source with 0 (zero) comments of their own. I'd like to remind those of the posting rules:
----------------
6. POSTING EXTERNAL MATERIAL

a. When sharing outside material with the forum, please do it in the form of links with summary paragraphs. Posting long passages (i.e. more than a few short paragraphs) of outside text, regardless of relevance, is prohibited.

b. The summary of the content of the link should be a paragraph of your own words and / or with a single-paragraph excerpt from the text itself.

c. “Naked” links, i.e. links without summary text, should be avoided, as most members do not have the time to blindly research such links.

Conclusion: When Darla or other PA members cut and paste the long channeled messages in itself is breaking forum rules and further infraction of forum rules when a personal statement or relevant sentence from text is not provided.


(2) Ability to Question, Debate or Discern Messenger: Greg Giles, Mike Quinsy, Sheldon Nidle etc. . . . have not gone through the application process to be a member of PA. With the everyday (sometimes two an three times) of long passages being cut and pasted on the forum these non-members influence the energy and feel of Avalon. Because they are not members we cannot dialogue or question the posted content with them personally.

Example Pila: Recently we had a self professed channeler join PA as an applicant member. The members then were able to question, debate and subsequently nail this person as destructive and a fraud and he was shown the door. BUT, not before he severely attacked a very sensitive member of the forum.

Conclusion: There are many on PA who have the same ‘red flags’ and questions about the channelers and their message that is allowed on PA several times a day. We do not have the ability to debate or dialogue with the person who is delivering the message. Therefore we cannot resolve the questions and red flags we have.

Solution or Suggestion: If PA members want this material to be continued to be allowed on PA in its entirety then require the authors of the material to become legitimate members of PA through the application process.

Side Note: There are active members who have stated first hand their involvement with GFL and/or Ashtar and/or Salusa and that they have been seriously injured emotionally and mentally by these ‘groups’. So, every time these current members see unchallenged material posted it brings up those hurtful damaging memories and programming


(3) General Problem or Slippery Slope Regarding Channelers and Channeled Material:
Giles, Quinsy, Nidle (etc) receive material from a “higher source” through undefined mental or spiritual melding and write it down claim it from a “higher all wise” source . . . that material then becomes a powerful message.= New Age Religion

Okay . . . Moses, Apostles Paul, John, Matthew, Luke receive inspired messages from a “higher source” . . . it is “breathed” into them . . . undefined mental or spiritual melding and they write it down, obviously a powerful historical message = Christianity

These (both religions) writings inspire, encourage and uplift many who read them . . .

Difference?

(4) Long Cut and Pasted Material Posts in Spiritual Section (with no member summary): In the same vain as above this happens in the spiritual section as well. All religion whether it is Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and/ or New Age Religion is mostly loosely gathered under the same section on PA . . . hence Spiritual Title

Problem: In the spiritual section again these long cut and pasted posts are allowed on a daily basis from New Age religious (nonmember) leaders and New Age books etc. with little to no summary posted from PA member . . . little to no dialogue from poster on why they feel this message is important to them or why they feel it relevant to the members or forum, therefore breaking forum rules on two accounts.

I can only imagine if a Christian member of PA were to cut and paste long section of scripture from the Bible or a Jewish member post passages from the Torah everyday there would be ensuing mass uprising and quick reprimand of the member and material removed.

Solution or Suggestion: The member should be required to post reason clearly why they are posting (any) religious material and what that passage means to them and why it is relevant to the forum and the forum members should freely be allowed to debate or question material without the poster claiming they are being attacked or bullied.

Other Thoughts or Solutions: If Bill or the Administrators feel that the members who are breaking these forum rules everyday and sometimes several times a day should be allowed to continue in the same way then I feel their material could be placed in a special section, taken from live feed or ‘new posts’ and from the ability for guests to the forum to read.

This way the PA members who find inspiration and encouragement from them and who want to read them in one place everyday they can and they will know where to find them.

Although I feel this type “special allowance” would be a very slippery slope and prejudicial to other Avalon members who post within the forum rules.

Therefore, I feel, if the New Age religious material and Channeled messages are allowed unchallenged by forum rules then material from ALL religions should be allowed in this “special section” for members who find encouragement and inspiration from their religion of choice.

[9eagle9]

Excellent summary, Blufire. Since we are so concerned about fairness, that too something that goes both ways. I personally have not been damaged by the GFL cult it is important since 'feelings' are so important to the posters of their messages we take into consideration the harm that it has caused members. I was not aware of the extent of people who had experienced this so I applaud your ability to see that.

At the very least if there is no resolution on this matter, or at least not the resolution that you seek Blufire, the wall papering of the Avalon universe with in-authenticated messages will continue as usual. But in equal measure, threads concerning their lack of validaty , and critiquing their content will be have to given a pass as well. If the in-authentic messages are allowed to flourish then the 'other side of the coin' threads should be allowed to flourish as well. A balance of sorts. That makes things unconditional. Isn't that what we are all looking for.

[9eagle9]

I'm also going to add that, the Giles and Sheldons of the world would no more step in here and be able to give their messages credence than I can turn into a flying fish.

If the invitation would offered there would be some 'holier' than thou reason' given as to not be able to participate. The fact that their adherents who claim these people care about them couldn't get them in here would speak louder than anything.

Not to mention if they actually did by some jaw dropping miracle deign to gift this forum with their presence, and were routed out for what they are ....the backpedaling we would witness would reverse the spin of the earth.

I highlyy doubt their programming would allow it. But twould be most interesting if it did.

[onawah]

Thanks to Blufire and 9eagle9 for your input.
The controversy does seem somewhat pointless, up to a point, anyway.
But there are people who have been caught up in these cults and have "recovered" or are now in recovery, and even if that were not the case, I still think having this discussion is a learning process that we have to go through if we really want to maintain the integrity of Avalon.
People still caught up in the cults may not understand or care what the debate is all about now, but it may be having an effect that will manifest later, even if they aren't really paying attention
I think the concerns that we are expressing is probably spilling over into their consciousness in some way, however subtle.
It may be nothing more than a process of planting seeds now for the future crop of recovering ex-cult members, and it's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.
Saying that one is only affected by the cultish messages if one reads them is ignoring the fact that it affects the whole vibe of Avalon when the forum is being used to further the agenda of these cults.
I don't think that's what Avalon is meant for.
The requirement that the OP provides some input for each message is necessary, though it stops far short of addressing the central issues.
Segregating the channeled messages from the feed and the non-member viewers would be good steps, IMHO.
At least it's a step in the right direction.



Finally he says, "Knock it off, you sound like an idiot," And I say yeah, "I'm doing it deliberately but you know there are people out there who don't do that deliberately and have no idea they are doing it. And even if you asked them to stop, they couldn't. "

[andrewgreen]

I disagree with the content of the channelled info because it does spread false hope and ultimately cons people into giving their power away.
However I don't think we should ban it. People have a right to read what they want from what source they want, this isn't Nazi Germany. What next banning YouTube videos you don't like.
I think the main problem with the channelled stuff is that people who do support it seem reject other peoples right to discuss it or criticize it which is as fascist as banning it in the first place. If you post something on a discussion boar regardless of the content accept it will be discussed or don't post it.

[tonius]

I have always been critical towards channeled messages, but i don't think limiting ar stopping people from posting what they feel explains their being and their path is the way. So for me no limiting at all, the opposite would be wrong. My posts about channeled messages has always been about understanding better why such messages are so important for some souls, in what way they contribute to know yourself better, and if the''exitement'' toward them is the corresponding to the one a religous person has towards bible, koran etc... So i would consider this thread mostly as a way to ''reflect'' on the matter, talk about it,not putting ''restrictions'' on what people post, we are in this forum to get away, speak freely, from the restrictions of the world we are in now, doing the same would be counterproductive.

My only suggestion would be for us to try ''channel'' more ourselves, and then see what intuition, understanding comes out, not just read channelings from beings who are not ''now '', ''here'',and have their ''unique'' point of view about ''how things are'', and then listening to such interpretation to see if we can ''adapt'' our understanding to that frame. This is the only thing (''channeling ourselves'') that ''honours'' our being CREATORS,in this ''limited edition'' of illusion we are in now, if we hide it under layers and layers of what we hear from ''above'' then we are loosing the chance to proclaim our power, the power of not caring where you are at the moment, and be yourself, without waiting for portals to open or ships to come to ''show'' you how infinite you are, that is ''bargaining'' your chance to be a Creator for the sake of been ''succesful'' and ''safe'' in the prison, its like expecting that by going to church every day you become a beeter person, what we Are had never anything to do with where we are,or how much we know about the illusion, or how we ''prepare'' for the ''fake'' situations it offers us, like shifts, portals and studing ''insider's'' tips on how to be a ''well prepared'' shifter, a copycat, and a ''model for others'' prisoner.

[Curt]

This issue has become a big distraction that serves nobody...

Edit: well, that's not entirely true. It does serve the interests of the controllers extraordinarily well....

Can someone break this spell, please...

3....2....1....and you're back in the room...

[ktlight]

Well, I am astonished that this thread exists at all! Is no-one aware that we do not have to read anything on PA? And what is this about organising how people should post what they want to?

If the subject does not interest you, why read it? Why read it if it makes you vomit? Is that not masochism? Where's the discernment in this kind of activity? What's wrong with you that you do this?

My advice to such people is to examine yourselves and ask why you do not feel kindness, instead of attacking, acting out violence in word. This is a great pity!!!!!!! What are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to control how posts are made by people, not in your own skin, who wish to make that information available to all who wish to know about it. No-one is forcing you to read. If you read, it is your own choice. Desist!!!!!!!

[ThePythonicCow]

Well, I am astonished that this thread exists at all! Is no-one aware that we do not have to read anything on PA? And what is this about organising how people should post what they want to?
No one has to read anything in particular here ... however ... that does not excuse filling the forum up with cruft.

We are here for a purpose. As Bill Ryan wrote in his Welcome to Avalon! (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?7225-Welcome-to-Avalon-) message:




What is that Message and Vision?

In creating this new forum, we're encouraging all members who've been invited here to:


Start or participate in community projects that will radiate out to the members' communities - or



Post information and participate in regards to awakening; spirituality; healing humanity; galactic and earth changes; '2012' (whatever that may mean!); geopolitics; new science; hidden history; ETs and disclosure; what we are not being told by those who might wish to control us - and much else.

Granted, knowing what is "information" and what is "disinformation" is never certain, frequently controversial and usually challenging.

But I for one tend to the school of thought that overly detailed, chronically unverifiable "information" (except in so far as was generally known anyway), that is purported to be from specific alien races or individuals, is seldom good information, whether it is claimed to be received by channeling or telepathic transmission.

As a forum with a sizable and constantly changing membership, we are vulnerable to being overwhelmed by disinformation. To the extent that we continue to be affective in our mission, there is no doubt that some would want to eviscerate us, by whatever means available.

It is the responsibility of the forums moderation team and the opportunity of members who would continue to support this forum to maintain the quality of forum posts, which can and sometimes should include discouraging posting patterns that we come to understand are harming the forum.

Free speech does not include drowning out the speech of a Ron Paul (or other honest speaker, of your choice) with the sound of a 1000 bagpipes playing full blast.

[ktlight]

But I for one tend to the school of thought that overly detailed, chronically unverifiable "information" (except in so far as was generally known anyway), that is purported to be from specific alien races or individuals, is seldom good information, whether it is claimed to be received by channeling or telepathic transmission.


I agree with this statement, which is the reason why I do not read channelled stuff much. If I do read it and agree or disagree, I would state mentally 'noted' and leave it at that. I would not have a go at any member for posting what that poster would consider is information regardless whether or not it is authentic or useful. If you read it, take responsibility. It was your eyes, your energy, your time.

[stardustaquarion]

I am all for free speach but I don't think the intention of avalon is to support recognized cults. The Galactic Federation is now under cult watch in the US, that means that there has been enough people complaining about the harm that has been done to them and therefore has become an issue

In any case I think that if Sheldon Nile or any other channeler wants to share their work with us, they should be members of avalon so we can ask them questions and get answers. The most anoying thing about the GLF is the sheer amount of nonsense that gets plastered everywhere. I have analyzed the messges with Gita in the past only to realize that they are deamining to the human race

Other than that they are such negative messages because we are considered unable to resolve our own problems as human race so they patronize us and make us believe the only solution is to run away to a "new planet". If anyone is negative is the GLF

They other thing that I have observed across other forums is that the GLF creates divisions among people, those that love the planet and want to stay and those that hate the planet and can not wait to be lifted elsewhere. But try to say anything to them and you are the one that gets labeled a "negative" just because one is using one's discerment and asking questions

Propaganda was the tool of the nazis, they repeated their lies so many times that their message became a new religion, a fundamentalist religion. The GLF does the same, is a new fundamentalist religion that answers no questions and does not tolerate disent

So I think that a happy medium will be to allow people to post their own interpretation of the messages and a link to the original message. That way at least GLF followers will have to make the effort of reading what they are pasting. GLF have become better known by "the cult and paste brigade" and it is not a mistake "cult" is intended

I don't want to ofend anyone but we do NOT need to be indoctrinated IMHO

[ThePythonicCow]

I agree with this statement, which is the reason why I do not read channelled stuff much. If I do read it and agree or disagree, I would state mentally 'noted' and leave it at that. I would not have a go at any member for posting what that poster would consider is information regardless whether or not it is authentic or useful. If you read it, take responsibility. It was your eyes, your energy, your time.
Discernment is a useful, even necessary, tool ktlight. Yes.

But just as individuals should choose what to read, so also should forums choose what to host. Those forum that don't will end up either being ineffective for lack of good content, or ineffective for excess of destructive (to the forum's effectiveness) content.

[ktlight]

PA has a forum called 'Channeled information', which comes under 'Spirituality'. It has existed forever, as far as I am aware. I don't understand why it is there if it cannot be used.

[Ria]

Paul, I can only say, on the whole I think you are doing avery good job. But, part of the problem on the Channeled site has been a lack ,of moderating of rude behavior, [partly du to your own biased] this has curtailed healthy discussion and derailed many of the threads. So yes, posters become defensive when messed with on a constant basis. You have tackled the effect but not the corse. Please, I know many others that have felt battle wiry. We are more intrested in finding out things, than fighting.:)

[Eric J (Viking)]

I agree with KT...I have mentioned this before to Bill ... We have an area for 'channled info' also with a disclaimer...which I have never seen on other forums...buy hey ho...its Bill ship. so to speak. I 'll go by his rules...

Also Paul I think you mention "that does not excuse filling the forum up with cruft." ...'cruft'! rude comes to mind!! so every time someone mentions that it is poor quality 'post' does it mean we stop posting that type of info ... if I didnt have such thick skin I would be offended...A little over the top Paul...do we check with a mods with every 'message' we post...its getting rather silly isnt it???

Maybe we should all agree to disagree and stop going around in circles...

viking

[modwiz]

I agree with KT...I have mentioned this before to Bill ... We have an area for 'channled info' also with a disclaimer...which I have never seen on other forums...buy hey ho...its Bill ship. so to speak. I 'll go by his rules...

Also Paul I think you mention "that does not excuse filling the forum up with cruft." ...'cruft'! rude comes to mind!! so every time someone mentions that it is poor quality 'post' does it mean we stiop posting that type of info ... if I didnt have such thick skin I would be offended...A little over the top Paul...do we check with a mods with every 'message' we post...its getting rather silly isnt it???

Maybe we should all agree to disagree and stop going around in circles...

viking

Viking, I think Paul is being honest and blunt without any intention of being rude. I disagree with his assessment, but at least I know where he stands. We have thick skin, we can take it. :p

BTW, I thought cruft was a funny word. Sounds original to me.

[Eric J (Viking)]

I agree with KT...I have mentioned this before to Bill ... We have an area for 'channled info' also with a disclaimer...which I have never seen on other forums...buy hey ho...its Bill ship. so to speak. I 'll go by his rules...

Also Paul I think you mention "that does not excuse filling the forum up with cruft." ...'cruft'! rude comes to mind!! so every time someone mentions that it is poor quality 'post' does it mean we stiop posting that type of info ... if I didnt have such thick skin I would be offended...A little over the top Paul...do we check with a mods with every 'message' we post...its getting rather silly isnt it???

Maybe we should all agree to disagree and stop going around in circles...

viking

Viking, I think Paul is being honest and blunt without any intention of being rude. I disagree with his assessment, but at least I know where he stands. We have thick skin, we can take it. :p

BTW, I thought cruft was a funny word. Sounds original to me.

LOL

'cruft' = layers of poorly written source code that have accumulated over a great length of time....Anything old or of inferior quality....

Nowt to do with doggies.. lol

viking

[ThePythonicCow]

Paul, I can only say, on the whole I think you are doing avery good job. But, part of the problem on the Channeled site has been a lack ,of moderating of rude behavior, [partly du to your own biased] this has curtailed healthy discussion and derailed many of the threads.
Mods cannot ensure no one will be rude to another, nor perceive rudeness coming from another.

Rudeness is a sliding scale and a subjective scale. Both "sides" to this ongoing clan war see rudeness where the other side sees just honest commentary. What is or is not rude is not clear cut, and is not objectively determined with any precision.

Sometimes rudeness is in the mouth of the speaker; sometimes it is in the ear of the listener.

The energy of the mod team is finite.

The ultimate demeanor of the forum rests in members hands ... the mod team can only moderate that demeanor.

Finally I doubt that rudeness is the primary problem here. Rather I take it to be a secondary problem, resulting from some fairly long standing and apparently irreconcilable views over the worth of certain material.

[Ria]

I agree with KT...I have mentioned this before to Bill ... We have an area for 'channled info' also with a disclaimer...which I have never seen on other forums...buy hey ho...its Bill ship. so to speak. I 'll go by his rules...

Also Paul I think you mention "that does not excuse filling the forum up with cruft." ...'cruft'! rude comes to mind!! so every time someone mentions that it is poor quality 'post' does it mean we stiop posting that type of info ... if I didnt have such thick skin I would be offended...A little over the top Paul...do we check with a mods with every 'message' we post...its getting rather silly isnt it???

Maybe we should all agree to disagree and stop going around in circles...

viking

Viking, I think Paul is being honest and blunt without any intention of being rude. I disagree with his assessment, but at least I know where he stands. We have thick skin, we can take it. :p

BTW, I thought cruft was a funny word. Sounds original to me.

Respectfully disagree, for all those who do not carry a thick skin.

[Eric J (Viking)]

Paul, I can only say, on the whole I think you are doing avery good job. But, part of the problem on the Channeled site has been a lack ,of moderating of rude behavior, [partly du to your own biased] this has curtailed healthy discussion and derailed many of the threads.
Mods cannot ensure no one will be rude to another, nor perceive rudeness coming from another.

Rudeness is a sliding scale and a subjective scale. Both "sides" to this ongoing clan war see rudeness where the other side sees just honest commentary. What is or is not rude is not clear cut, and is not objectively determined with any precision.

Sometimes rudeness is in the mouth of the speaker; sometimes it is in the ear of the listener.

The energy of the mod team is finite.

The ultimate demeanor of the forum rests in members hands ... the mod team can only moderate that demeanor.

Finally I doubt that rudeness is the primary problem here. Rather I take it to be a secondary problem, resulting from some fairly long standing and apparently irreconcilable views over the worth of certain material.

Thats fine, each to their own.... I have been raised and embedded within me, to be courteous at all times when possible...

I'll carry on.

viking

[ThePythonicCow]

A little over the top Paul...do we check with a mods with every 'message' we post...its getting rather silly isnt it???
Well ... that retort strikes me as silly, yes :).

The presence of any imposed moderation does not imply the absence of any allowed discretion.

[Eric J (Viking)]

I never mentioned anything about discretion ...

We are going around in circles...now thats SILLY ...

As KT has mentioned "We have an area for 'channeled info" So why the big deal???

viking

[Ria]

Paul, I can only say, on the whole I think you are doing avery good job. But, part of the problem on the Channeled site has been a lack ,of moderating of rude behavior, [partly du to your own biased] this has curtailed healthy discussion and derailed many of the threads.
Mods cannot ensure no one will be rude to another, nor perceive rudeness coming from another.

Rudeness is a sliding scale and a subjective scale. Both "sides" to this ongoing clan war see rudeness where the other side sees just honest commentary. What is or is not rude is not clear cut, and is not objectively determined with any precision.

Sometimes rudeness is in the mouth of the speaker; sometimes it is in the ear of the listener.

The energy of the mod team is finite.

The ultimate demeanor of the forum rests in members hands ... the mod team can only moderate that demeanor.

Finally I doubt that rudeness is the primary problem here. Rather I take it to be a secondary problem, resulting from some fairly long standing and apparently irreconcilable views over the worth of certain material.

The Trollers that you seem so keen on, are not offering anything, they are not posting anything better or an alternative, in this section other than to trash it. You seem to be able to discern rudeness that comes under other headings.
What I could do, is to help you out, by posting all the rude, sarcastic, put downs for you veiw :mod:

[D-Day]

The problem here is not with channelled information in general.
It is with the GFL-specific stuff... which is full of cruft! (thanks Paul;))
There are those of us who can see the cruft, and those who can't.
Those who can't need to realise that those who can are always gonna feel obliged to point out the ctuft to those who can't.
And, those who can need to realise that those who can't... can't for a reason... they're programmed not to be able to see the cruft.
So long as GFL-related cruft continues to exist on this forum, so to will the group of cruft-busters who exist to point it out for what it is... cruft!

[ThePythonicCow]

I never mentioned anything about discretion ...
I read your query "do we check with a mods with every 'message' we post" as asking "do the members have no discretion to determine what to post on their own". ... and I took such a question to be silly, yes. To be more precise, I took it to be a false dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) or slippery slope fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope fallacy).


As KT has mentioned "We have an area for 'channeled info" So why the big deal???
I think I already answered that question, from my apparently different perspective. See above.

[Eric J (Viking)]

Quote Paul....

I think I already answered that question, from my apparently different perspective. See above.

Perhaps I am having a stupid day...where??

viking

[ThePythonicCow]

The Trollers that you seem so keen on, are not offering anything, they are not posting anything better or an alternative, in this section other than to trash it. I find things of value posted in various places on this forum. Whether or not you do ... or where ... that's your call.


What I could do, is to help you out, by posting all the rude, sarcastic, put downs for you view :mod:
I'm sure you could. I might even find one side to this disagreement calling posters on the other side "trollers", and the mod team "biased", if and when they don't properly support a particular determination of what is rude or not :).

I can pretty much guarantee that any frequent member of this forum has found posted, if they were so inclined, something they thought rude.

I can also pretty much guarantee that frequently, when the mod team does take some action to oppose rudeness on the forum, some one or members did not think it rude at all.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Quote Paul....

I think I already answered that question, from my apparently different perspective. See above.

Perhaps I am having a stupid day...where??

viking

Ah - I had in mind this post http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41541-Request-to-Review-Process-on-Channeled-Message-Threads&p=439526&viewfull=1#post439526

P.S. -- and this post http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41541-Request-to-Review-Process-on-Channeled-Message-Threads&p=439545&viewfull=1#post439545

[Eric J (Viking)]

That post does not mention anything about what we are talking about Paul...

Bill once asked why I was posting such material (channeled) …

My reply was because we have a tab on this type of information…shortly afterwards he put the disclaimer in this section…thats fine...his ship.

The section remained, so I take it we can post whatever type of channeled material we resonate with YES?

viking

[stardustaquarion]

Viking, having a thick skin is not a badge of honour...it means that you are not empathic and that you do not care about other people. I am not surprised though, because one has to have a very thick skin not to realize the load of psy ops BS the GLF is

So many years of being told " you are a punny little humans" as the GLF often says have broken you down

But rest assured they are not coming, they will never come, there will be no rescue mission for those that wish humanity obliterated by nuclear weapons and the planet destroyed so you can get your mates to give you a lift

I for one think we as humanity can make it if we are empathetic towards each other and make the effort to meet half way

It seems that you are breaking the rules of this forum Viking and you can not care less

Why, since the GLF has his own forum, you have to target avalon? Because it has a lot of traffic isn't it? Your agenda is the destruction of Earth and all that is in it and nothing will stop you until you get that interplanetary lift with your mates....and you call us negative

How many good people you have chased out of avalon because of the GLF? I lost count....

[Sebastion]

I see a lot of seemingly deliberate attempts to confuse the issue. I have not seen any posts objecting to all channeled posts. The issue is primarily with the credibility concerning the glf, ashtar and salusa. If you need evidence as to why, ask the various members involved how their galactic joy ride went. That turned out really well didn't it? And let's not forget about all those mass arrests that were supposed to happen within "several days". Again, zero evidence of any mass arrests 10 days later. I may need to add that retiring and/or quitting a job is entirely separate and has nothing to do with being arrested.

I see the issue as being one of credibility. The glf, ashtar and salusa have zero history of credibility.

[Eric J (Viking)]

It seems that you are breaking the rules of this forum Viking and you can not care less


Really ??? can you elaborate?

viking

[ThePythonicCow]

It seems that you are breaking the rules of this forum Viking and you can not care less
I trust, stardustaquarion, that Viking, and the other parties to this discussion, are honorably following the forum guidelines, within the usual limits of human fallibility and energy.

The question of this thread is whether those guidelines, as understood and applied, should be reviewed.

[Eric J (Viking)]

It seems that you are breaking the rules of this forum Viking and you can not care less
I trust, stardustaquarion, that Viking, and the other parties to this discussion, are honorably following the forum guidelines, within the usual limits of human fallibility and energy.

The question of this thread is whether those guidelines, as understood and applied, should be reviewed.

Thank you Paul

Can you answer this one as well ...


That post does not mention anything about what we are talking about Paul...

Bill once asked why I was posting such material (channeled) …

My reply was because we have a tab on this type of information…shortly afterwards he put the disclaimer in this section…thats fine...his ship.

The section remained, so I take it we can post whatever type of channeled material we resonate with YES?

viking

viking

[stardustaquarion]

Paul, Blufire posted this

Quote

Ilie Pandia (PA administrator) in post #44 stated forum rules (this backs up above statement)

I've seen a lot of the members here posting full copy pasted text from outside source with 0 (zero) comments of their own. I'd like to remind those of the posting rules:
----------------
6. POSTING EXTERNAL MATERIAL

a. When sharing outside material with the forum, please do it in the form of links with summary paragraphs. Posting long passages (i.e. more than a few short paragraphs) of outside text, regardless of relevance, is prohibited.

b. The summary of the content of the link should be a paragraph of your own words and / or with a single-paragraph excerpt from the text itself.

c. “Naked” links, i.e. links without summary text, should be avoided, as most members do not have the time to blindly research such links.

Conclusion: When Darla or other PA members cut and paste the long channeled messages in itself is breaking forum rules and further infraction of forum rules when a personal statement or relevant sentence from text is not provided.

unquote

the bolding is mine and I said it seems because I did not consider it clear cut issue but, there is an argument about pasting long messages

[Eric J (Viking)]

Stardust, and as for this remark here...


Your agenda is the destruction of Earth and all that is in it and nothing will stop you until you get that interplanetary lift with your mates....and you call us negative

Are serious about this...get bloody real Stardust ... destruction of earth...listen here me old matey you dont need me to blow up planet earth, the ptb have all the arsenal to do whatever they want to this dear planet...

Hmmmm I wonder why this hasn't happened as yet!!!! I cannot believe you said that....SHAME ON YOU!!! Dont be so bloody ridiculous...get real.

viking

[ThePythonicCow]

I see a lot of seemingly deliberate attempts to confuse the issue. I have not seen any posts objecting to all channeled posts.
The issue of late has been shifting, from my perspective. I am starting to worry about "overly detailed, chronically unverifiable "information" (except in so far as was generally known anyway), that is purported to be from specific alien races or individuals" (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41541-Request-to-Review-Process-on-Channeled-Message-Threads&p=439526&viewfull=1#post439526)).

I perhaps should change "chronically unverifiable" to be instead "chronically unverifiable or subsequently disproven" :).

[ThePythonicCow]

there is an argument about pasting long messages
Yes, that rule is fairly often broken here ... we mods are not consistent in enforcing it.

[stardustaquarion]

Stardust and as for this remark here...


Your agenda is the destruction of Earth and all that is in it and nothing will stop you until you get that interplanetary lift with your mates....and you call us negative

Are serious about this...get bloody real Stardust ... destruction of earth...listen here me old matey you dont need me to blow up planet earth, the ptb have all the arsenal to do whatever they want to this dear planet...

Hmmmm I wonder why this hasn't happened as yet!!!! I cannot believe you said that....SHAME ON YOU!!! Dont be so bloody ridiculous...get real.

viking

Why then you need a "new earth" Viking? don't you read what you post?

Of course if all the people involved in international negotiations are "thick skined" we not doubt will be in trouble but that reminds to be seen. And since the GLF is allegedly "negotiating" and your behaviour is representative of their principles I have no confidence on the outcome and will like the GLF to leave the planet alone if they exist that is

On the other hand, didn't they said that they were going to dissable the weapons so why do you need a "new earth"

I think the one that needs getting real is you Viking...listen...make summaries and put links and eveyone is happy...or is too much work?

[ThePythonicCow]

The section remained, so I take it we can post whatever type of channeled material we resonate with YES?

That's my understanding of how things have been and are now, yes, within broad limits.

From my present and personal perspective, it's certain material (as I just described above) posted outside that sub-forum, and the mixing of spiritual and channeled within that sub-forum, that are topics of particular interest. My perspective will continue to evolve; and other members and other moderators will have their own diverse and evolving perspectives.

[Eric J (Viking)]

Stardust and as for this remark here...


Your agenda is the destruction of Earth and all that is in it and nothing will stop you until you get that interplanetary lift with your mates....and you call us negative

Are serious about this...get bloody real Stardust ... destruction of earth...listen here me old matey you dont need me to blow up planet earth, the ptb have all the arsenal to do whatever they want to this dear planet...

Hmmmm I wonder why this hasn't happened as yet!!!! I cannot believe you said that....SHAME ON YOU!!! Dont be so bloody ridiculous...get real.

viking

Why then you need a "new earth" Viking? don't you read what you post? Just maybe Mother Gaia is fed up with being tampered with

Of course if all the people involved in international negotiations are "thick skined" we not doubt will be in trouble but that reminds to be seen. And since the GLF is allegedly "negotiating" and your behaviour is representative of their principles I have no confidence on the outcome and will like the GLF to leave the planet alone if they exist that is your opinion is but a minority and they will only arrive if we want them to ...freewill has always been enforced

On the other hand, didn't they said that they were going to dissable the weapons so why do you need a "new earth" ...as above

I think the one that needs getting real is you Viking...listen...make summaries and put links and eveyone is happy...or is too much work? havent got a clue what you are talking about here

Oh boy still laughing at that remark "Your agenda is the destruction of Earth" again get real.

viking

[Eric J (Viking)]

The section remained, so I take it we can post whatever type of channeled material we resonate with YES?

That's my understanding of how things have been and are now, yes, within broad limits.

From my present and personal perspective, it's certain material (as I just described above) posted outside that sub-forum, and the mixing of spiritual and channeled within that sub-forum, that are topics of particular interest. My perspective will continue to evolve; and other members and other moderators will have their own diverse and evolving perspectives.

Well if thats the case Paul...maybe this thread should be closed, because it is serving no purpose whatsoever...apart from going around in circles!!

http://static.flickr.com/87/260638412_92aa328838.jpg

viking

[ThePythonicCow]

Well if thats the case Paul...maybe this thread should be closed, because it is serving no purpose whatsoever...apart from going around in circles!!
I thought this thread was reviewing what we did, with an eye to a possible change regarding forum guidelines or structure for handling some or all channeled postings, and/or similar (in some way not clearly defined yet) postings.

(I'll be away from my computer for the next several hours.)

[Eric J (Viking)]

Well if thats the case Paul...maybe this thread should be closed, because it is serving no purpose whatsoever...apart from going around in circles!!
I thought this thread was reviewing what we did, with an eye to a possible change regarding forum guidelines or structure for handling some or all channeled postings, and/or similar (in some way not clearly defined yet) postings.

(I'll be away from my computer for the next several hours.)

And we're still looking for answers.!

viking

[blufire]

Paul said:


The question of this thread is whether those guidelines, as understood and applied, should be reviewed

Thank you Paul. . . .I have never said BAN the material. I did say ‘not allowed’ in the OP but only in the context of; there is no member reason (or little) on why they are posting these very long non-member passages.

Also, I requested among other things, a review be made on instead of a new thread being started two and three times a day on channeled material that it remains under one thread title.

I only have asked that the forum rules and guidelines be followed and applied to everyone

Do I like this material . . . no . . . not my cup of tea . . . .do I understand that there are members who do, yes. . . . do I want to take this away from them? NO

But, the constant barrage of unfulfilled lies and misdirection because of this material has changed or at least ‘colored’ the focus and mission of Avalon.

Someone mentioned that we have lost valuable members because of the channeled material hoopla. I agree and I have one foot out the door and if you read back through this thread there are many others like me. Yeah. . . I can here several of chanting . . . .go away, go away . .. ;)

Unless we do a bit of tidying up and application of the guidelines to all of the members . . . I fear . . . the only people left on Avalon will be the channeled material members.

I have a massive project I would like to share with Avalon that fits perfectly with a main focus of Bill’s reason for making this forum available to us. But it (the forum) has changed so much over the past year, that I no longer feel this is a good platform or place.

This thread was an attempt to see if it would be possible to level out the ‘posting playing field’ a bit so that the larger majority of us on Avalon could have our voice and focus back. . . . . .

[9eagle9]

The problem which has been stated nine thousand times is that you can't insult a message. Do you we insult commericials, billboards, stupid messages? Yes all the time, if they are crap. Rudeness extends only to people.

People can't detach from their messages, so when you say the message is crap they perceive they are being told they are crap. So they percieve rudeness in that inablity to separate themselves from their beliefs.

That is a reaction based on transferance of their self identity. There is nothing that anyone can do about that, the repsonsiblity is with the person with the faulty self perception. They can't understand that they, the person, is not the message.

If someone chooses to peddle crap, what can you do? They want others to pretend its not crap? Is that what is really being asked here? Even when it's easily demonstrated to be crap. Where is the actual responsibility lying at? Don't the crap-posters have to take as much responsiblity for their reactions than the people who posting non channeled material?

Clearly there are some self identification problems going on here but there's no forum audience or moderation that is responsible for someone giving their self identity over to a message. Certainly they would feel disempowered and disrespected but they are the ones who disempowered themselves, well before the message was even posted.




Paul, I can only say, on the whole I think you are doing avery good job. But, part of the problem on the Channeled site has been a lack ,of moderating of rude behavior, [partly du to your own biased] this has curtailed healthy discussion and derailed many of the threads.
Mods cannot ensure no one will be rude to another, nor perceive rudeness coming from another.

Rudeness is a sliding scale and a subjective scale. Both "sides" to this ongoing clan war see rudeness where the other side sees just honest commentary. What is or is not rude is not clear cut, and is not objectively determined with any precision.

Sometimes rudeness is in the mouth of the speaker; sometimes it is in the ear of the listener.

The energy of the mod team is finite.

The ultimate demeanor of the forum rests in members hands ... the mod team can only moderate that demeanor.

Finally I doubt that rudeness is the primary problem here. Rather I take it to be a secondary problem, resulting from some fairly long standing and apparently irreconcilable views over the worth of certain material.

[Sebastion]

I disagree Viking on closing this thread. Your opinion is not the opinion of all others on this thread and is not your thread to close.

[stardustaquarion]

Stardust and as for this remark here...


Your agenda is the destruction of Earth and all that is in it and nothing will stop you until you get that interplanetary lift with your mates....and you call us negative

Are serious about this...get bloody real Stardust ... destruction of earth...listen here me old matey you dont need me to blow up planet earth, the ptb have all the arsenal to do whatever they want to this dear planet...

Hmmmm I wonder why this hasn't happened as yet!!!! I cannot believe you said that....SHAME ON YOU!!! Dont be so bloody ridiculous...get real.

viking

Why then you need a "new earth" Viking? don't you read what you post? Just maybe Mother Gaia is fed up with being tampered with REALLY? WHO SAYS SO? YOU? OR SHELDON NILE?

Of course if all the people involved in international negotiations are "thick skined" we not doubt will be in trouble but that reminds to be seen. And since the GLF is allegedly "negotiating" and your behaviour is representative of their principles I have no confidence on the outcome and will like the GLF to leave the planet alone if they exist that is your opinion is but a minority and they will only arrive if we want them to ...freewill has always been enforced ARE YOU NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THEIR INDOCTRINATION?

On the other hand, didn't they said that they were going to dissable the weapons so why do you need a "new earth" ...as above You got to be kidding VIKING as usual dodge the bullet and bambuzle the question

I think the one that needs getting real is you Viking...listen...make summaries and put links and eveyone is happy...or is too much work? havent got a clue what you are talking about here

Oh boy still laughing at that remark "Your agenda is the destruction of Earth" again get real.

viking

Viking answers are above but I just can not believe you call this sensible answers. This is representative of you trolling

Give a rational explanation why do we need a new earth please...this is just a demostration of why it is impossible to have a rational conversation with a cult member like you Viking...you don't even know why you are doing what you are doing anymore

[9eagle9]

No kidding I'm thinking its not the earth that needs to be changed but the people inhabiting it. So you get a new earth with a bunch of unaware people milling around on it and shortly you will have an old earth again. "New' always beign percieved as 'better'. New being better is not always the case.

It's part of the program, when the program is scrutinized they will do anything to shut down what is scrutinizing the program. Claiming injured feelings because that always works, disruption with dead text, and then shutting down whatever is scrutinzing the program. The fact this thread and others like them exist causes a lot of discomfort because its not 'with the program.'

We are looking at a program that is providing it's own evidence of being a program, and the program don't like that much. It doesn't work anymore once the patterns around it begin to reveal it for what it really is.

But we knew that.

[Billy]

I thought the title of the thread "Request to Review Process on Channeled Message Threads" was answered on page 2 by our Mod Illi. No review required.

But reading on i see that a solution to the nagativity that arises from non believers of channeled messages is being disgussed.

Playground Name calling over, The playground bell rings, everyone back to the classroom and study the Live and let live solution.

Peace

[Eric J (Viking)]

Give a rational explanation why do we need a new earth please...this is just a demostration of why it is impossible to have a rational conversation with a cult member like you Viking...you don't even know why you are doing what you are doing anymore

We dont need a new earth Stardust because she is wonderful just as she is...the waters are clean...the air is clean...there is no devide, everyone is ok and we have no starvation or malnutrition with other dear innocent people...slave labour does not exist its just falacy... no wars are on going at the moment, thats just propaganda and all...ect etc etc

Planet Earth is doing just fine.

???? "you don't even know why you are doing what you are doing anymore"

You know Stardust you are very insulting I might just press the switch off button as far as you are concerned that way I wont see any of your posts...

viking

[9eagle9]

Often times the core value of channeled messages carries a subtle message that we humans are victims or that we are martyrs. And those who very endoctrinated in this sort of thing will inappropriately post, strictly because someone will not treat it with respect therefore re-establishing for them, their subconscious role, as a martyr. They are looking for an abuser to re-establish their identity. that is manipulation for self gratification. They are then abusing their own belief system......this is a means of getting away with abuse because its so subtle but nearly everyone has had a relationship with a person who does something like that.

YET....there is message that even though they are abusign their own beliefs , and themselves, there's this expectation that everyone else should respect it.

For people who are attempting to move away from humans desecrating themselves this pattern is viewed with some distaste. Abusing themselves in public, attempting to establish situaitons with prejudice where they wil be treated as martyrs. It's role playing. Which goes along with programming. "

[Camilo]

Let's just agree to disagree. Usually when I don't like a post, I just stop reading it and go to another one of my liking, without badmouthing the one I didn't like or who ever posted it. I really enjoy the freedom of expession, and it should be honored and respected.

[stardustaquarion]

Give a rational explanation why do we need a new earth please...this is just a demostration of why it is impossible to have a rational conversation with a cult member like you Viking...you don't even know why you are doing what you are doing anymore

We dont need a new earth Stardust because she is wonderful just as she is...the waters are clean...the air is clean...there is no devide, everyone is ok and we have no starvation or malnutrition with other dear innocent people...slave labour does not exist its just falacy... no wars are on going at the moment, thats just propaganda and all...ect etc etc

Planet Earth is doing just fine.

???? "you don't even know why you are doing what you are doing anymore"

You know Stardust you are very insulting I might just press the switch off button as far as you are concerned that way I wont see any of your posts...

viking

Listen Viking, I now we are not perfect yet but we will learn if we work together

For now, I challenge you to prove without a shadow of a doubt that the GLF is real and I mean physical proof not channelings and fake photos. Until then, all your arguments are flawed because you can not receive help from those that exist in ghostland

Where was the GLF when the GOM happened? when was the GLF when FUKUSHIMA happened? to have friends that tell you off and offer no solution...who needs enemies

[blufire]

Viking . . . all I’m asking. . . this is my dad gum thread confound it . . . . is we all have a level posting field and guidelines be followed for all or changed or modified for the benefit for all and health of the forum.

You and others in ‘your camp’ want the world changed to benefit all humanity and so do I. You have you focus on how that could be done but so do I and others like me.

You are more for the ‘conscious focus, meditation or thought’ type thing . . . A kind of passive hope that ‘they will swoop in’ and give us the technology to do it in one fell swoop.

I am more pro-active and not willing to sit around and wait for someone to ‘do it’ for me . . . my mess . . .I’ll do my part.

One Question for Viking. . . . . do you truly not understand that the way (okay I’ll name a name . . . ( Darla as most often ) posts thread after thread and posting the material breaks the guidelines sometimes several times a day?

[Eric J (Viking)]

Hey just a quick thank you to the Mods for the ignore switch ...it works a treat...a lovely shade of pink.

Thanks again

viking

[9eagle9]

Checks watch to see how long one can actually stay in Ignore Mode before the opposing core values make them unable to refrain from ignoring anymore.

[Eric J (Viking)]

Viking . . . all I’m asking. . . this is my dad gum thread confound it . . . . is we all have a level posting field and guidelines be followed for all or changed or modified for the benefit for all and health of the forum.

You and others in ‘your camp’ want the world changed to benefit all humanity and so do I. You have you focus on how that could be done but so do I and others like me.

You are more for the ‘conscious focus, meditation or thought’ type thing . . . A kind of passive hope that ‘they will swoop in’ and give us the technology to do it in one fell swoop.

I am more pro-active and not willing to sit around and wait for someone to ‘do it’ for me . . . my mess . . .I’ll do my part.

One Question for Viking. . . . . do you truly not understand that the way (okay I’ll name a name . . . ( Darla as most often ) posts thread after thread and posting the material breaks the guidelines sometimes several times a day?

Hello Blufire I appreciate your polite manner and interaction...lets keep it that way..OK

I am fully aware of what Darla posts and the content...some of which resonate with me and some do not...I understand the meachanics of why we are here today, and how we have got ourselves into this situation. I also understand that we all need to be pro-active ... not sure what you mean by breaking the guidelines?

Think about what type of content these messages are giving... are they giving a world of brutal tones or are they giving us a world where we can all be equal with each other and have abundance of all...where do you want to be?

Before we have a harvest the seeds need to be sown. Tell me what harvest do you want Blufire....paint me a picture.

viking

[Billy]

Often times the core value of channeled messages carries a subtle message that we humans are victims or that we are martyrs. And those who very endoctrinated in this sort of thing will inappropriately post, strictly because someone will not treat it with respect therefore re-establishing for them, their subconscious role, as a martyr. They are looking for an abuser to re-establish their identity. that is manipulation for self gratification. They are then abusing their own belief system......this is a means of getting away with abuse because its so subtle but nearly everyone has had a relationship with a person who does something like that.

YET....there is message that even though they are abusign their own beliefs , and themselves, there's this expectation that everyone else should respect it.

For people who are attempting to move away from humans desecrating themselves this pattern is viewed with some distaste. Abusing themselves in public, attempting to establish situaitons with prejudice where they wil be treated as martyrs. It's role playing. Which goes along with programming. "





It is fun how different people can have different perpectives looking at a situation. Now i thought the Martyrs in this situation were the ones that did NOT agree with channeled messages but for some strange reason that i could not fathom, persisted on reading them. :p
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41541-Request-to-Review-Process-on-Channeled-Message-Threads

[blufire]

Stardust and 9eagle9 . . . I apprecaite so much the support you guys are giving me here . . .but it kinda isn’t helping.

Their (viking, ria, darla, etc) beliefs are their own. Their soul felt beliefs are just as important and truthful to them as ours are to us. They no more can change theirs than we can ours.

We all change, grow or stagnate . . .ebb and flow through our journey.

We need all types of human frailties and strengths . . . . it forces us to grow and adapt and it is not our place or to our advantage as individuals to judge or define which is a frailty and which is a strength.

We . . . on this forum if we want it to be a powerful force . . . need to police ourselves within the outline and format of the forum.

Also, within the Two Clans (thanks paul for this visual) we should perhaps define ‘elders or wise ones’ to guide and direct their own clan. I certainly would not send 9eagle9 to the ‘other clan’ to be their elder, but I certainly would honor and respect her as an elder or wise one within ‘this clan’.

We keep our ‘forum people or clan’ gently in line as should the ‘other clan forum people’. Then together we address a common goal . . .we just accept and honor that we all do it differently.

[Ria]

The problem here is not with channelled information in general.
There are attacks regardless where it comes from
It is with the GFL-specific stuff... which is full of cruft! (thanks Paul;))
This is a poor exsample that Paul has now set.
There are those of us who can see the cruft, and those who can't.
Is this not condescending, that assumes you know better [maybe you don't? Do you know all there is, in the the minds of the people you reefer]
Those who can't need to realise that those who can are always gonna feel obliged to point out the ctuft to those who can't.
Again making belittling assumptions. Is this not bullying...... I am going to keep telling you, till you think like me. Do you believe this is a persuasive way to achieve your goal
And, those who can need to realise that those who can't... can't for a reason... they're programmed not to be able to see the cruft.
You are sounding like TPTB. More assumptions about our inabilities, to reason, to see,
So long as GFL-related cruft continues to exist on this forum, so to will the group of cruft-busters who exist to point it out for what it is... cruft!
I am well aware that there fake and spoof GFL messages out there and should be viewed with discernment and circumspect.
But I try not to throw the baby out with the bath water. IF the TPTB have infiltrated the GFL or masquerading as them, I will observe. Further more I do not require your services to police my thoughts how I should think or what to read.
I appreciate that on some level you are trying to be of service.:meeting:

Some thing that has been amuse-sing me, is seeing cults, under ever stone.
That is not to discount it, as it is a serious issue. D-Day this is not referring to you

All so, D-Day I don't wont you to think I am singling you out. You are expressing a number of peoples views here.
It is more the timing of your post
Best wishes Ria

[stardustaquarion]

I totaly agree blufire that we need a new format...perhaps you will be wiser than all the others that have tried before.

Lets see if you can reason with Viking because none of us can

[Billy]

Stardust and 9eagle9 . . . I apprecaite so much the support you guys are giving me here . . .but it kinda isn’t helping.

Their (viking, ria, darla, etc) beliefs are their own. Their soul felt beliefs are just as important and truthful to them as ours are to us. They no more can change theirs than we can ours.

We all change, grow or stagnate . . .ebb and flow through our journey.

We need all types of human frailties and strengths . . . . it forces us to grow and adapt and it is not our place or to our advantage as individuals to judge or define which is a frailty and which is a strength.

We . . . on this forum if we want it to be a powerful force . . . need to police ourselves within the outline and format of the forum.

Also, within the Two Clans (thanks paul for this visual) we should perhaps define ‘elders or wise ones’ to guide and direct their own clan. I certainly would not send 9eagle9 to the ‘other clan’ to be their elder, but I certainly would honor and respect her as an elder or wise one within ‘this clan’.

We keep our ‘forum people or clan’ gently in line as should the ‘other clan forum people’. Then together we address a common goal . . .we just accept and honor that we all do it differently.

I am not sure that dividing members into clans is the way foreward. Look at the history of clans just to verify that it never worked.

Then we would require yet another clan for those like myself who do not believe the majority of channeled messages to come from source, but also believe that each soul has the right to choose what they read and believe and will stand up for whoever is being downtrodden.

Peace

[9eagle9]

I respectfully refrain from further comments at your request Blufire but I will emphasize that you are expecting a rational dialog and rational response based on YOUR utterly rational position, and your original thought process. You will not get that in return. So please Don't have any false expectations or feel frustrated. It's the fork attempting to communicate with the record player. You are not dialogging with rationality , you are engaged in dialog that is not going to return what you are offering. Anysort of functional energy exchange has a return. I just want you to know that I and many others see that but please don't unneccesarily set yourself up for frustration. The failure doesn't come from reality or authenticity.

[modwiz]

I totaly agree blufire that we need a new format...perhaps you will be wiser than all the others that have tried before.

Lets see if you can reason with Viking because none of us can

Reasoning and points of view are different critters. Vikings 'stance', as the words implies is a standing, it is his point of view. It would be the height of confusion to not honor ones stance and capitulate because of brow beating. This is how society 'out there' works. There are clear cut right and wrong points of view according to them. To have a point of view that differs usually results in a relentless assault on said point of view until the 'oddball' succumbs to 'reason'. This is crowd bullying and what created sheeple. This is your argument, that Viking is not being reasonable. If you notice, the supporters do not ask people like yourself to change their view. All we ask is to be left alone, which is the usual stance of mature people. Trying to change anothers view is a screaming red flag of insecurity and doubt about ones own view. This doubt causes pain and reaction. 9eagle9 should be able to pick it up here, she has this point down very well.

It is the ones asking for removal who have issues with not being able to leave people to their own devices. It is strange behavior. Cults or not. I have born again acquaintances who give 10 per cent of their earning to their church. I leave them alone and do not harass them about it. They have made a choice and if I do not honor their choice it says more about me then it does about their choice.

This whole concept and the tenacity of sticking to the harassment is quite bizarre, IMO. The strength of the conviction cannot be about the subject itself. It is not reasonable. This is a witch hunt mentality.

I think much, not all, of the channeling is bogus. I think the same thing about most aspects of organized religion.

[blufire]

viking said:

I am fully aware of what Darla posts and the content...some of which resonate with me and some do not...
... not sure what you mean by breaking the guidelines?

Do you truly not understand how we, as forum members, are supposed to post? Please read the forty-eleven times the guidelines and rules have been posted (even on this thread). If you, viking as someone I view as a leader among the members who value the channeled material, want your format to be honored and respected then help members, like Darla, to stay within the guidelines, it will make your voice and message more powerful.

Viking said:

Think about what type of content these messages are giving... are they giving a world of brutal tones or are they giving us a world where we can all be equal with each other and have abundance of all...where do you want to be?

The overall general message in the ‘channeled messages’ is positive and lovely feeling . . . .but . . . some of us often times detect a veiled or hidden message as well. Please respect that this is where we are in our growth or journey. Right or wrong it is where we are . . . right or wrong it is where you are. You can no more force this message on us in its entirety than we should rip it away from you.

Viking:

Before we have a harvest the seeds need to be sown. . . . . .

My garden will reflect my desires and focus and yours will reflect your desires and focus. But, we cannot all Grow the same Garden. Together we share the harvest of our gardens and in that way become sustainable and productive. But, we need to have the same 'guidelines' . . . in this picture guidelines would be we would grow organically and not use gmo seeds.


Tell me what harvest do you want Blufire....paint me a picture.

Haven’t read many of my posts or Foxfire Hollow thread have you??? ;)

[Eric J (Viking)]

Thank you Modwiz...again wise words from a wise man.

Blufire, we all try to keep within the guidelines...Paul has stated that we have done so, thus far.

"some of us often times detect a veiled or hidden message as well." enlighten me ...

Again guidelines as per Paul have not been broken.

No I haven't read any of "Foxfire Hollow" do I need to??

Incidently have you read 'We are the change' http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10351-We-are-the-change perhaps that why we are going around in circles...?

viking

[blufire]

Thank you Modwiz...again wise words from a wise man.

I agree wholeheartedly . . . thanks from me too mod


Blufire, we all try to keep within the guidelines...Paul has stated that we have done so, thus far.

Yes, within this mornings postings on this thread, I believe. This post (#44) from Ilie Pandia is what I am referring to:



I've seen a lot of the members here posting full copy pasted text from outside source with 0 (zero) comments of their own.
I'd like to remind those of the posting rules:----------------
6. POSTING EXTERNAL MATERIAL

a. When sharing outside material with the forum, please do it in the form of links with summary paragraphs. Posting long passages (i.e. more than a few short paragraphs) of outside text, regardless of relevance, is prohibited.

b. The summary of the content of the link should be a paragraph of your own words and / or with a single-paragraph excerpt from the text itself.

c. “Naked” links, i.e. links without summary text, should be avoided, as most members do not have the time to blindly research such links.

viking said:

"some of us often times detect a veiled or hidden message as well." enlighten me ...

LOL I think 9eagle9 and stardust and others have been quite proficient in enlightening you!!


No I haven't read any of "Foxfire Hollow" do I need to??

You asked me to paint you a picture of the harvest I envision . . I think you will see it on that thread



Incidently have you read 'We are the change' http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...are-the-change

Read it . . . . filed in away in my “mind’s rolodex” as material to glean from

I will be away rest of day from my computer . . . I am meeting with a group from the Nature Conservacy of Virginia on restoring a river that has been severely damaged by strip coal mining and gas well drilling. Planting a few seeds in my garden for a future harvest . . . . for us all . . . . . .and by the way haven't seen one member from gfl or alien to come help me :p

[Curt]

As to the 'clans,' I think Braveheart himself may have a thing or two to say about this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Sa_OQgWiPA

[Eric J (Viking)]

I can most certainly assure you Blufire, that neither Eagle or Stardust have enlightened me... that I can guarantee you!

Well lets hope you paint a picture with Humanity in mind...STO

Be well

edit...as for Et helping you in your garden...yeah right !

viking

[sirdipswitch]

PEACE... Peace is all that matters. That is all that we need to do, and the powers that be will be disarmed. If we simply choose to live in peace with all and not fight with one another, then they have no control over us. We do not need to love someone, or thing, to live in peace with it. We do not even have to like it. In fact, we can even hate it and yet still live in peace with it. We are all just people, trying desperately to learn how to live on this rock. Nothing more. I do not believe ghosts from the past. Ancient knowledge, is just that, ancient. This is now, I am here now, I will live in now, not in yesterday, and I will live in peace with all that I know, wheather I love them or hate them. For when I learned to travel astrally from a modern teacher, ( William Buhlman) I learned that I could go commune with my higher self, and with source, and learn that we are all, immortal spiritual beings, and nothing can harm us, and we are just here for a physical experience. Nothing more. So I just learned the game and live in peace with all, for it is your game and I do not wish to spoil it for you.

love and peace
sirdipswitch

[zebowho]

**edited to remove comment which was not intended toward the OP -z**

The hippocracy (and DRAMA) rampant these days is staggering. People still post cut info from outside sources without adding a paragraph of their own and maintain that they are breaking no rules, I not only see this in the "channeled.." area but everywhere else. From multi-paged documents to vid's and there's much more but I won't illustrate further, they are all in various threads (with a "report" button). **Note - I've been seeing this over and over and had to mention it, food for thought kind of thing, nothing more.

Here's another line of thought. "What are WE doing?" Sure there are several people that are trying to do their part in their own space of the world but what are "WE" doing. I say, infighting. The internet now has its own version of "jersey housewives (or whatever that show was called, didn't watch it)" that is the alternative medium. Is it not bad enough that people are dying of the worst kind of poverty, hunger and the fallout from the hand of greed? Its it not bad enough that entire countries are being beaten down because they aren't falling in line with the bankers hand? Is it not bad enough that the population of the world still hasn't figured out how to stand together? Why must we add to it.

I'll just state for the record, I do not follow channeled information, from where I come from the only channeled info is coming from the person flipping off the priest trying to help them. See for me, channeled material violates one rule I see as concrete...Free Will and I don't believe good energy, entities, spirits, angles (or ET's if you want) will violate that rule. Maybe you'll say "what if someone is asking for that channel?", I'd answer, "what would I get playing with a ouija board?".

People will believe what they believe until they find their own proof otherwise, and some people are behind the wall receiving the screaming. I do respect everyone's individual belief, but I don't own "their" belief, thus have no vested interest to change it, only mine.

Blue I think you should follow the suggestion and keep the initiative to have a few threads dedicated to your mission, goals and helping others attain the same. I would subscribe to those as I have Wade's threads and I think further segregation in this "alternative arena" is something we should avoid. The circus that is the alternative is doing enough of that on its own.

Again I ask, "What are WE doing?" (no need for a reply, just think on it for a while).

-z

[mountain_jim]

10 pages? wow.

I think I'll go back to reading a channeled Seth book, such as The Nature of Personal Reality (channeled by Jane Roberts almost 40 years ago)

Wherever or from whoever that wealth of material sprang, it's Intelligence resonates for me so as to prove the potential value of some channeled material.

I appreciate being able to read any and all and form my own view.

[Anchor]

One of the phenomena that happens that is not covered in the guidelines is the fact that posting heaps of messages does at least have an impact on the "Todays" posts headline.

It seems unfair to me that this material is cross posted without any enrichment or commentary or debate by the poster.

I do see the damage that does to Avalon, since it is itself associated by implication with this data - which I suspect was the real reason the disclaimer was placed there.

Personally I do not like what the Channeled Information forum has become. Back when it was one message every week or every other week or so, you could actually have a thread and a debate there. Now it is entirely Saturated with GFL material - so much so it looks like propaganda.

I don't think, really, that this is fair on Avalon.

Implement the guidelines properly.

Ensure people only post extracts and links.

If you want a kind of GFL repository of Avalon reader chosen material, posted in full, then perhaps start a group and post it there - then it becomes an OPT IN and all this debate goes away - those that don't want to see it, don't have to - then the Channeled forum goes back to being what it was before - actual insights and not repetitive messages from one particular group.

John..

[Sebastion]

I would second that notion Anchor without a doubt.

[ThePythonicCow]

...

A few questions and comments to Bill and the Mods regarding channeled messages:

Day after day, these long posts and threads are started with only the “message” from the channelers or channeled. There is little to no commentary or reason why the Avalon member posted the thread. There is little to no following or supporting posts other than to say how wonderful it (the message) is . . . unless . . .we negative, mean members chime in and challenge.

To me, this is as if Greg Giles, Mike Quinsy, Sheldon Nidle, Steve Beckow, GFL, Ashtar and all the others are some type of “honorary members” . . . . are they? We, the members of Avalon, went through an application process and were therefore invited and accepted into the forum.

...

Bare minimum, I feel, the channeled messages should all be on only one thread instead of several threads being started almost everyday. On that thread only the link to the message be posted so that if a member wants to read that message he or she will need to follow the link to that website and that the member posting the link to the message be required to state compelling dialogue on why they suggest Avalon members go to the website to read the ‘message’.


Thank-you for raising this issue, blufire.

It's time for a shift in how this forum (myself in particular) handles such channeled messages.

Though the Forum Guidelines are fairly clear on at least one aspect of this, as quoted by Ilie in Post #44 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41541-Request-to-Review-Process-on-Channeled-Message-Threads&p=437596&viewfull=1#post437596), above, I have been lax in enforcing that forum guideline.

The mod team, including myself, have agreed that we should start enforcing that guideline. The above sorts of posts (and posts in general) should provide excerpts and introductions in the poster's own words. "Posting long passages (i.e. more than a few short paragraphs) of outside text, regardless of relevance, is prohibited."

I also acknowledge reading blufire's suggestion above that channelings from the same source, over a period of time, be on one thread, rather than a new thread for each channeling. The mod team is still discussing that suggestion, and brainstorming other possibilities.

Again guidelines as per Paul have not been broken.


The time has come for a shift in this. Please see my above comments.

[Anchor]

Paul,

if the GFL community on this forum wanted to start a group and post complete texts within that group, would that be permitted?

John..

[ThePythonicCow]

Paul,

if the GFL community on this forum wanted to start a group and post complete texts within that group, would that be permitted?

John..
The rest of the mod team has not commented on your "GFL community group" proposal yet ... so I can only speak for myself so far.

I think that would be an excellent alternative.

[onawah]

Thank you!
The sticky thread on the channeled subforum entitled Recognizing and Recovering from Psyop/Hoaxed Channeled Messages was started in January, but it was quite a few weeks prior to that that many members began noticing the growing issue of the GFL threads flooding Avalon, and there has been no abatement of the flood since then,in spite of many, many threads focusing on this problem.
So I really appreciate Blufire's input here, and all the other contributors, which has at last achieved the kind of notice from the Mod team that I have felt this issue has deserved for quite some time now.
I had about given up on Avalon myself, but I have some hope again now.
And I hope more solutions will be arrived at by the Mods, because as long as the GFL type info is viewable to all guests as well as members to the forum...
Avalon will no doubt continue to be a major outpost for this kind of material and the many who are addicted to it, which has created yet another sad day in Avalon's history.
And as long as the Avalon members are given free rein to post as many of those kinds of messages per day as they want, and as many comments about them as they wish, I think the public feed loop will continue to be full of a lot of those posts...
Which will continue to dilute the amount of really good information that is being posted, and for new visitors, the face of Avalon will be greatly altered from what it once was (as it is now and has been for some months).
So when someone like Blufire has a great new subject to be explored here, she may decide, as she has already considered doing, to go elsewhere.
Or perhaps Wade Frazier or Helvitic or Truthseeker512 (who posts here regularly about the progress Dr. Osmanagich and team is making in the Bosnian Valley of Pyramids), or Giovanni and his Back at the Ranch might decide to move on somewhere else where their posts aren't being buried in nonsensical GFL commentary.
And other old members such as myself, may decide to leave.
All of which I think would deter new kinds of members other than the GFL crowd from being drawn here.
I hope these factors will be taken into consideration by the Mods while they decide what further steps might be taken to divert the flood elsewhere.
Thanks to Paul and the Mod team for sitting up and taking notice.


...

A few questions and comments to Bill and the Mods regarding channeled messages:

Day after day, these long posts and threads are started with only the “message” from the channelers or channeled. There is little to no commentary or reason why the Avalon member posted the thread. There is little to no following or supporting posts other than to say how wonderful it (the message) is . . . unless . . .we negative, mean members chime in and challenge.

To me, this is as if Greg Giles, Mike Quinsy, Sheldon Nidle, Steve Beckow, GFL, Ashtar and all the others are some type of “honorary members” . . . . are they? We, the members of Avalon, went through an application process and were therefore invited and accepted into the forum.

...

Bare minimum, I feel, the channeled messages should all be on only one thread instead of several threads being started almost everyday. On that thread only the link to the message be posted so that if a member wants to read that message he or she will need to follow the link to that website and that the member posting the link to the message be required to state compelling dialogue on why they suggest Avalon members go to the website to read the ‘message’.


Thank-you for raising this issue, blufire.

It's time for a shift in how this forum (myself in particular) handles such channeled messages.

Though the Forum Guidelines are fairly clear on at least one aspect of this, as quoted by Ilie in Post #44 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41541-Request-to-Review-Process-on-Channeled-Message-Threads&p=437596&viewfull=1#post437596), above, I have been lax in enforcing that forum guideline.

The mod team, including myself, have agreed that we should start enforcing that guideline. The above sorts of posts (and posts in general) should provide excerpts and introductions in the poster's own words. "Posting long passages (i.e. more than a few short paragraphs) of outside text, regardless of relevance, is prohibited."

I also acknowledge reading blufire's suggestion above that channelings from the same source, over a period of time, be on one thread, rather than a new thread for each channeling. The mod team is still discussing that suggestion, and brainstorming other possibilities.

Again guidelines as per Paul have not been broken.


The time has come for a shift in this. Please see my above comments.

[Dennis Leahy]

...

A few questions and comments to Bill and the Mods regarding channeled messages:

Day after day, these long posts and threads are started with only the “message” from the channelers or channeled. There is little to no commentary or reason why the Avalon member posted the thread. There is little to no following or supporting posts other than to say how wonderful it (the message) is . . . unless . . .we negative, mean members chime in and challenge.

To me, this is as if Greg Giles, Mike Quinsy, Sheldon Nidle, Steve Beckow, GFL, Ashtar and all the others are some type of “honorary members” . . . . are they? We, the members of Avalon, went through an application process and were therefore invited and accepted into the forum.

...

Bare minimum, I feel, the channeled messages should all be on only one thread instead of several threads being started almost everyday. On that thread only the link to the message be posted so that if a member wants to read that message he or she will need to follow the link to that website and that the member posting the link to the message be required to state compelling dialogue on why they suggest Avalon members go to the website to read the ‘message’.


Thank-you for raising this issue, blufire.

It's time for a shift in how this forum (myself in particular) handles such channeled messages.

Though the Forum Guidelines are fairly clear on at least one aspect of this, as quoted by Ilie in Post #44 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41541-Request-to-Review-Process-on-Channeled-Message-Threads&p=437596&viewfull=1#post437596), above, I have been lax in enforcing that forum guideline.

The mod team, including myself, have agreed that we should start enforcing that guideline. The above sorts of posts (and posts in general) should provide excerpts and introductions in the poster's own words. "Posting long passages (i.e. more than a few short paragraphs) of outside text, regardless of relevance, is prohibited."

I also acknowledge reading blufire's suggestion above that channelings from the same source, over a period of time, be on one thread, rather than a new thread for each channeling. The mod team is still discussing that suggestion, and brainstorming other possibilities.

Again guidelines as per Paul have not been broken.


The time has come for a shift in this. Please see my above comments.

Again, from an organizational standpoint, as well as a programming standpoint, separating "Channeled Messages" out of the "Spirituality" subforum does not dishonor anyone, does honor that there is a difference, and allows the admin team multiple other options for ensuring that the "Channeled Messages" area is properly representing Bill's intent (he did place a banner there - and nowhere else on the forum - because of his strong feelings on the matter. And that was when the quantity of channeled messages was quite a bit lower.)

I would ask those that think this is an overblown reaction to please allow those who have strong feelings about this to "get it out." This is closer to a resolution than it has been before, so please be patient.

Note that the increased volume of posted channeled messages was one factor, and the bold predictions coming from channeled material that fell flat on their face was another factor - and it has obviously awakened a sleeping bear. I would strongly recommend that everyone step back and recognize that the folks posting channelesd messages are good people deserving compassion and respect. From their viewpoint the messages bring hope, and I'd say it is a bad idea to try to stomp out anyone's hope.

On the other hand, the awakened bear is now going to "attack" the messages without attacking the messengers, right? 9eagle9 spoke with wisdom (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?41541-Request-to-Review-Process-on-Channeled-Message-Threads&p=439644&viewfull=1#post439644) that the messengers need to disengage their attachments? egos? emotions? from the message once delivered, knowing some will offer thanks and blessings, and others will disassemble what they see as harmful, incorrect, or misleading content - just the same way that we all have an opportunity to disagree with any post on Avalon (as long as we remember to disagree respectfully.)

In spite of the fact that some people are expressing "leave everything as it is", "there's no problem, what's the fuss?", others are expressing that there is a problem. Recapping, I see two identified issues:

1.) the quantity of channeled messages is overwhelming, "flooding" the forum
2.) the channeled content is harmful
_a.) to individuals reading the "cultish/psyop" material
_b.) to Avalon. - lending a 'flavor' to the forum that Avalon is a channeling forum ("Bill Ryan's House of Channeling"), with some other content as well (disclosure, Dark Cabal, UFOs, Free Energy, etc.)

My previous suggestions dealt with #1.

If #2a is correct, exposing/"debunking" the content (respectful of the poster) is probably all we can do (or face a hurricane of "censorship!" accusations)

If #2b is correct, well, I'd say that's Bill's call.

If #1 is correct, (as per forum guidelines) posting snippets, with some text from the poster 'personalizing' the post and eliminating the 'copy-and-paste' feel should help. If it still feels overwhelming, the idea of excluding the new "Channeled Messages" sub-forum from the "Newest Posts" area should help.

Of the people hanging in there, hoping for a resolution and not just sweeping this under the rug, does the synopsis sound about right?

Dennis

[onawah]

Sounds about right to me, Dennis. Thanks.

[Eric J (Viking)]

Eureka ...

Sounds Ok with me Dennis...lets get it going for goodness sake....less of the childish stomping and lets get some action.

Thanks again and Paul as well.

viking

[blufire]

It's time for a shift in how this forum (myself in particular) handles such channeled messages.

Though the Forum Guidelines are fairly clear on at least one aspect of this, as quoted by Ilie in Post #44, above, I have been lax in enforcing that forum guideline.

The mod team, including myself, have agreed that we should start enforcing that guideline. The above sorts of posts (and posts in general) should provide excerpts and introductions in the poster's own words. "Posting long passages (i.e. more than a few short paragraphs) of outside text, regardless of relevance, is prohibited."

I also acknowledge reading blufire's suggestion above that channelings from the same source, over a period of time, be on one thread, rather than a new thread for each channeling. The mod team is still discussing that suggestion, and brainstorming other possibilities

Paul,

To say simply Thank You doesn’t come close to the deep appreciation I feel for you and the mod team.

This has truly restored a lot of hope and excitement I feel for Avalon and what we can achieve together as a united front and force.

When the mod team finalizes their discussion and brainstorming and final conclusions are drawn and implemented . . . . . and when you feel the time is right please close this thread.

P.S. Really Big Thanks to Dennis as well . . . . as always a calm, reasonable and solid mediator for our slightly dysfunctional family! You must be a middle child.

[Dennis Leahy]

... Dennis ... must be a middle child.hahahahahahaha You nailed that one, my friend! 7th of 10. Plenty of chaos and dysfunction. Lots of mediation practice.

:~)

Dennis

[Billy]

I am delighted to know that my suggestion for Bluefire to create her own thread on the Channeling problem has achieved a solution. Now we can all move foreward together.

Well done Blufire and thank you for the great respect you have shown throughout this disgussion. I look foreward to the new format

Much love and peace to all

[modwiz]

This thread has been very helpful in exposing the deeper parts of people and how some of their inner wheels move. It is good to know people better. It can aid decisions and allow 'accidents' to be avoided. I am glad resolution has been found around this subject. Like law and sausage making, watching the process is not pretty.

[gripreaper]

... Dennis ... must be a middle child.hahahahahahaha You nailed that one, my friend! 7th of 10. Plenty of chaos and dysfunction. Lots of mediation practice.

:~)

Dennis

I'm fourth of nine, from blond haired blue eyed catholic Europeans. You are correct when you say that we learned early to thrive through chaos, with our own discernment, and an ability to play well with others.