Neo Advaita and Maha Ati

[Tony]

Neo Advaita and Maha Ati

On further investigation...
First a little background information, as far as I understand.

Neo Advaita could have been derived from a student of Ramana Maharshi called Poonja (Papaji), but there could be others.

It is a message of
No teaching, No path, No practice – just be.

MahaAti is a Tibetan Buddhist teaching of
No teaching, No path, No practice – just be.

Exactly the same approach. So what is the difference?

Maha Ati is known as the 9th vehicle (“vehicles” is a term meaning levels).
One has to have at least some inkling of the other eight vehicles in order to fully understand Maha Ati (although I have seen complete beginners receive these teachings - right person right time right place!!!)
To clarify, Maha Ati is Dzogchen/Mahamudra teaching in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition.

So, there are no problems...or are there?

All these teachings are 'the end of the book'.
There are two approaches in Buddhism: we can start from the front of the book and read sequentially, or we can turn straight to the last page and find out the ending. Which approach depends on the student, and synchronicity! Either way, we have to engage in practice to understand and absorb the various subtleties of change, and obstacles.

If one sees someone fall into the water, it seems that, from a Neo Advaita point of view, there are no instructions, other than to say,“It is as it is”. The person may shout, “I'm drowning!” but one repeats, “It is as it is. Everything is an illusion”.

From the Mahayana Ati perspective, having gone through the previous vehicles, the main teaching, apart from discipline, is compassion. So when somebody falls in the water, one can instruct on how to stay afloat and swim. If one sees them still having a problem (before they drown!), one would jump in too, to support them until they can find their water wings. They are more important than you are...this is the altruistic attitude. Someone helped me when I was drowning...

A little more explanation.

Although, in the absolute aspect of what we term empty essence, there is no path, no teaching, no practice, one has either been introduced to, or realised through Vipasana practice, one's ultimate nature. This is know as “fruition” - dharmakaya – and is rarely realised during a lifetime. But it can be recognised at death more easily, because at that time, one's awareness is said to be nine times that of when one is in the body.

At this time, one merely rests in this unfabricated state (as it is), and realises one's true nature.

However, to be honest with ourselves, this is quite a profound state...and we are not always in it – even though we are 'it' – because of the distractions of the relative world: we have “baby rigpa” moments which can lead to dharmakaya. So at the moment of death, one could be easily distracted, and be pushed around by the hurricane of karma.

So that is why there are back up plans!
One plan is to practice true compassion throughout one's life, as it is a strong rudder through the bardo (the time after death). The other plan is Vajrayana practice, (deity practice – the practice of devotion): here one realises that all appearances life and death and beyond are mere projections of one's own mind, however real they may seem.

So, going through a system, one becomes a pretty good spiritual engineer. It all depends on what one finds satisfying.

Although Tibetan Buddhism sounds very complicated and Neo Advaita seems so simple, there are times when one finds there are obstacles in life and it is useful to be able to know how to deal it. Even negativity has its uses!

I am not a teacher, just a spiritual mate. A teacher is someone who has great knowledge, power and wisdom.

A practitioner will never disrespect another's path.
I just want to clarify what choices are available: and I'm in no way promoting Buddhism as “the only way”!

My personal interest is in consciousness, and its misdirection in this new world.

May you choose what is satisfying, and respect all.

[Tony]

You may not be aware of it, but this a very important issue, and it has the potential tearing spirituality and the forum apart. The introduction of an easy fix, do nothing. it's the sort of thing
the NWO would love.

[greybeard]

Its complex Tony.

The Neo Advaita is saying, as I understand it, that the individual is an illusion, there only is One and the moment you get into "my" path you are creating duality.
All belief systems, all concepts all identification as for example I am meditating must be released.
Their way Is, meditation happens, spiritual practice happens.
There has to be some seeming effort in releasing all that is not Self but that is attributed to higher Self/God
Ramesh said

God wrote the play
God produced the play
God directs the play
God is the actor in the play
God is the witness of the play.

He also said the biggest obstacle is the thought that "I am the doer"
Humility is part of it.
No credit is taken as there is ultimately no individual to take credit.
No self no problem.
There is no personal event--- the universe brings everything about and you are part of that.
You are nothing and from that nothing you are everything.

Thats just an essence of it.

Some say that there is nothing you can do out of context that seems fatalistic.
In context you are seen both as an instrument of God and God the totality all of it.
Its beyond the mind to grasp this.

Neo advaita says that after enlightenment all there is is Love.
Thats all there is in the first place, we are just blind to that fact.

So taken out of context it seems that Neo Advaita is divisive but the claim is very opposite.
Most adherents went through all the normal spiritual pursuits before enlightenment (not that they claim it)
The moment you start to look for God you are missing the very presence of God within and without
They are looking from the other side of the river so to speak.

Im neither supporting or denying the concept of Neo Advaita but its not as simple as it sounds.

Regards Chris

[Tony]

Thanks Chris,
But here I must take issue with you.

This is only true if one realises it.
Someone coming up to me and saying, "I am that," is just words.
How does it manifest?

To throw away all teachings seem rather foolish.
"I meditate". Is where people start, then they gradually realise there is no
mediation and no meditator.

But just to say... there is on mediation and no meditator, is meaningless.
It is a falsehood, it's trying to run before we can walk.

It seems divisive. It is saying believe and trust in me.
The reading of the end of the book, is a glimpse of reality.
Then we go back to the beginning to practise.

Is this not what Ramana did, for forty years?

[Tony]

Are these people wrong?

0aAIwwcRaSg

[greybeard]

Hi Tony
Im not saying my first post is my point of view so we dont disagree.
I am comfortable with spiritual practice ----I do it.
If all you had to do was just be then everyone would be enlightened and know it.
You cant claim being One till you are and then there is no need to claim it.

Regards Chris

[greybeard]

I dont think Neo Advaidta would appeal to a person who has not tried diligently a path.
Its the spiritual ego that is seeking enlightenment to my mind. that was my case. Still work in progress
Neo Advaita says that the very searching for something inherent in you, your true nature, is madness.
Bit like searching for the car keys when you have already put them in the ignition.

So the seeker which is spiritual ego finally comes to the conclusion that the me cant make it happen, gives up, then sometimes it appears that the grace of God happens.
So rationally I can see their point of view.

I could effortlessly debate black is white-- that doesnt mean I believe it Tony.

Truth is I dont know.

Regards Chris

[Solstyse]

Are these people wrong?

0aAIwwcRaSg

Can't watch video , she is wearing a BeBe Shirt.

Wow as I typed that I realized how judgmental it was. She is probably a fine woman, with great morals.

I watched video.

I will say the heroin analogy is awful, and she has obviously never shot up.

This is a lot of the same thing that me and my family talk about.
Is pray a form of action?
Is meditation?
If you pray for change, sure you are doing an action, as in a verb, of praying. That is just part of a complete sentence.
But is it really an action?

[Tarka the Duck]

For those of us who are interested in studying “non-dual spirituality”, it seems possible that a choice is necessary: to go to the neo-Advaita teachers, or to the teachers of the ancient traditions such as the Vedanta/Upanishads (Hinduism) or Dzogchen (Buddhism).

The Mahayana Buddhist sage Nâgârjuna and the Hindu Advaita Vedânta sage Shankara were both teachers and practitioners of nonduality. They taught that there are "two truths":

1) the conventional, relative level of ordinary experience: "you," "me," "him” etc, things and processes, right and wrong, justice and injustice, clarity and delusion, freedom and clinging, authentic spiritual realization and inauthentic (not yet complete) realization.
2) the ultimate, absolute level of discourse about non-dual spiritual Truth: only our true essence, which is infinite, compassionate, empty, formless, changeless, birthless, deathless awareness, is really real.

I am certainly no scholar, or any kind of expert in this area, but I am having a problem with what is NOT being said by advocates of the neo-Advaita way. It does seems to be an incomplete way: I know some will disagree, and please do offer your views on that!

There is plenty said about there being no journey, no seeker, call off the search, there is no need to make any effort, you are that which you seek etc etc. And no one would argue with any of that – in its purest sense. We know we have to abandon the neurotic, self quest for satisfaction for ME!

But...and this is my main concern...there is an aversion to any form of spiritual education/practice/intellectual understanding/critical thinking/evaluation. This worries me a lot! Is it necessary to have a self-induced lobotomy in order to get in touch with my true nature?

I think I am right in saying that all non-dual traditional teachings entail an element of study of wisdom texts, and of practice. Practitioners have found these methods to be of benefit for thousands of years.

It's all about balance. I am finding it hard to find any balance in the neo-Advaitan approach. It looks like a one-winged bird – a bird needs two wings in order to fly straight.
Traditional teachings have 2 wings – the absolute teachings and experience of wisdom and the relative practice of skilful means (morality, ethics, justice, meditational stillness, virtue etc) – these things do exist in the conventional world and we have to live in the conventional world.

To speak only of the wisdom aspect is, for me, elitist: it might sound attractive and sexy to the modern world which is used to instant gratification, but the spiritual path is really not that easy! If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is... We have many many layers of habitual delusions that are not going to vanish just because we keep saying that they are an illusion! If I'm fat, I won't lose weight by repeatedly chanting that I'm thin. I wish... Like it or not, if we are really honest, we know we are caught – for at least some of the time – in a dream-like web of delusion because we believe it to be real. That causes suffering. But realising this is not enough to free us from those beliefs, habits and fixations...the ego does not give up that easily!

Liberation from the self cherishing “I” is the aim, and a mere conceptual knowledge of it won't do the job. Just to understand and have a feeling that only the self is real will not awaken you from the dream. Thinking you can beat the ego into submission by telling it that everything is an illusion is puerile.

We have a mind. Our minds are truly beautiful. We don't have to deny our minds, or try to escape from them. Through techniques such as mindfulness meditation, where we pay close attention to understanding the nature of our mind, we will be able to learn about its true nature.

First there is a mountain
Then there is no mountain
Then there is...

Neo-Advaita seems to be stuck at the second stage, with denial of the existence of the mountain. For me, that “deconstructed” world is very unattractive! I wouldn't want to live in it...too nihilistic for me. I enjoy warmth, interest and humour in my interactions with others: if, in the forefront of my mind, I thought they didn't really exist, I would not be able to relate to them in a way that would be beneficial either for me or them.

We are unlimited, empty awareness.
But we have to get to work to actualise that.
The concept of that is not a final product...it's just a fact that we acknowledge, value and perhaps have a fleeting experience of. But, like Ramana Maharshi, after that glimpse, in order to stabilise, strengthen and assimilate it, we have to get down to making some serious effort!

So why does it bother me? Why not just leave it alone if it's not right for me? If I was only bothered about my practice, that would be fine. But I am concerned about the bigger picture.

Since finding out about the world of conspiracy, and what might (or might not!) be going on in our world, I don't think the fairly recent upsurge of interest in spirituality in society will have been ignored by those who wish to control. Telling people they can be 'awakened' or 'enlightened' right here, right now, sounds fab! No work no effort, no discomfort, no inner questioning, no insightful wisdom through taming the mind. It's too close to being a belief system...

As the teachings of the Vedanta began to interest Western psychologists in the 19th century, and psychotherapists started to include aspect of this philosophy into their work – especially the self-help brigade - I am wondering whether that is where the cherry picking began. The idea that there could be a quick fix, an easy and instantly appealing way which didn't entail any “path” or “work” and made you feel really good.

It does have some partial truth, but it needs to reconnect and rediscover its roots in the complete wisdom of the Vedas.
Authentic non-duality in any tradition does not preclude study, understanding, discipline, devotion, service, etc.

[Tony]

Pseudo-Vedantic Student
This is all too common in any tradition.



by Swami Sivananda of the Divine Life Society

A young aspirant says: I have taste for Vedanta only. I do not like either Bhakti or Karma Yoga. They are far inferior to Vedanta. Only Vedanta elevates me. Only Vedanta inspires me and raises me to the magnanimous heights of Divine Splendour and Glory.
This foolish Vedantic student is like the greedy typhoid patient with ulcers in his bowels, who wants to eat and says, I have taste for sweetmeats. I want to eat them now. What will be the result if he eats Rasagullas and Laddus at this stage? The bowels will rupture and he will die of bleeding from the bowels or intestinal haemorrhage immediately.

He is also like the patient who selects himself a medicine from the almirah, Liquor Arsenicalis or Tr. of Opium, and says, I like this medicine only. I want to taste this now. What will happen if he tastes this medicine without consulting the doctor? He will die of arsenical or opium poisoning. He does not know the dose of the medicine. Instead of taking a few drops he may take them in a large quantity and give up his vital breath at once. It is the doctor alone who can select the right medicine for the patient.

Everybody cannot want to become a Commissioner or District Collector or Governor without possessing the necessary qualifications. Can anyone become an M.A., Ph.D., without undergoing the course for Matriculation, F.A. and B.A.?

It is the Guru alone who can select the right type of Yoga for the aspirant and right kind of books for him. He knows the degree of evolution of the student and he alone can chalk out the right path for the aspirant. He will ask him to study first Atma-Bodha, Tattva-Bodha, Atma-Anatma-Viveka. But the raw self-willed student goes to the library and at once takes up the highly advanced books, Yoga-Vasishtha and Brahma-Sutras, for his study! He becomes a pseudo-Vedantin or lip-Vedantin within six months and enters into discussions with elderly aspirants.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. After studying Yoga-Vasishtha and the Karikas on Mandukya Upanishad for six months, he says: There is no world in the three periods of time. Aham Brahma Asmi - Sivoham - Sivah Kevaloham. He is puffed up with empty pride, vanity and hollowness, and walks in the streets with his head erect. He will never make any prostration to elderly Sannyasis and Sadhus, but chant the formula very often, Sivoham, Sivoham.

Such aspirants are formidable Asuras on this earth. They are a great burden on this earth. They pollute the atmosphere and create dissensions and quarrels everywhere, by entering into heated debates with sincere devotees and Karma Yogis. They cannot prosper in the spiritual path.

Vedanta in the hands of raw and unregenerate persons who lack purity and devotion and who have not removed the impurity of their hearts through untiring selfless service with Atma-Bhava and Kirtan and prayer, is perilous. It is like a sharp razor in the hands of a child. Instead of expanding their hearts the Vedantic study will thicken and fatten their egoism. They fall into the deep abyss of ignorance. There is no hope, for them, of being lifted up, as their heart is filled with foolish, Tamasic, obstinacy, false Vedantic pride and self-superiority and false Tushti (satisfaction).

May this land be free from such impotent, pseudo lip-Vedantins! May this world abound with real Vedantins like Dattatreya, Yajnavalkya and Sankara!

http://www.sivanandaonline.org/public_html/?cmd=displaysection&section_id=787

[greybeard]

The good teacher meet you where you are.

Ramana said
"The world you are trying to save does not exist"
" There was no creation and no dissolution"
Or words to that effect.
But that is not helpful.
You have to start from where you are.
Chris

[minkton]

I must admit that I have suffered at the hands of a 'no self' thesis manipulator who used it as an end point to validate lying to me and being unpredictable, bad mannered, brusque, etc. All to help me see the illusion of self. My stipulation that realising no self does not equate to behaving callously in the careless belief that self is of no import was dubbed as 'resistance'. And what a way to ring fence a person and treat them however you see fit..:(

[Tarka the Duck]

Wow, Minkton - that must have been tough to go through, and to identify and to break away from.


My stipulation that realising no self does not equate to behaving callously in the careless belief that self is of no import was dubbed as 'resistance'.

That relates to what I was trying (in a very long winded way...:o) to say - that this denial of the need for a recognition of the relative world, and then the practice of moral and ethical behaviour in that relative world - is a lop-sided, and paves the way for potentially abusive treatment, with no sense of responsibility.

I'll get off my soapbox now ! :tape:

[Bhusunda]

Are these people wrong?

Hi Tony,

assuming she speaks about Neo-Advaitans, I think she is quite right. At least I observe the tendency in some people to get high by the realization of Oneness. I know this from my own experiences as well.
There is nothing wrong with it as long as you know that you are high and that this is an experience. And that any experience is happening in time and is therefore bound to end.
If you are not aware of it, you may become quite a nasty boy/girl with a spiritual super-ego.
But don't worry, its going to end. I think it is a kind of growing pain. If we don't pay attention to them or just joke about them lovingly, they will stop.
;)

I think that growing up in a tradition can indeed offer some kind of protection and guidance thru this pitfalls as others have lived thru it before and leave guidance for others behind. Compassion and humbleness I think, is of greatest help. A teaching that is conferred and received in love, will last. Intellectual understanding will get you high only, and that doesn't last.
Nevertheless some people are ready to take a shortcut and that is fine too.

Cheers,
Bhusunda

[Bhusunda]

Its the spiritual ego that is seeking enlightenment to my mind.


So true!
Bhusunda

[Tarka the Duck]

Its the spiritual ego that is seeking enlightenment to my mind.


So true!
Bhusunda

There is a way to deal with that...one doesn't have to give up all notions of a path or practice just in case the ego may be use it for its own ends. Of course it wil!!;)

Ego-clinging is very subtle. Everything we do seems to be another way to feed the ego. The ego bribes us into assuming a path that seems to be a genuine spiritual practice, but then our ego usurps it. Even chanting ‘Om Mani Padme Hum’ can be appropriated by the ego. You sit down on your meditation cushion and assume the posture, but it’s because of ego. You light incense and prostrate before your statues in your little retreat room, but it’s still all for your ego. We need something to break free from the ego’s grip and that is the accumulation of merit and the purification of obscurations, in conjunction with devotion and compassion.
Tsoknyi Rinpoche

[Bhusunda]

... But...and this is my main concern...there is an aversion to any form of spiritual education/practice/intellectual understanding/critical thinking/evaluation. This worries me a lot! Is it necessary to have a self-induced lobotomy in order to get in touch with my true nature?


Exactly my feeling, the tendency to stop thinking and discerning is kind of worrying. Especially if you stop engaging into anything.
Didn't Krishna ask Arjuna to continue fighting, despite his realization of his true nature?

Bhusunda

[Tony]

The whole point is loving kindness.

6cV5PDjRIMs

[Bhusunda]

Neo Advaita could have been derived from a student of Ramana Maharshi called Poonja (Papaji), but there could be others.



I would confirm that. It seems to have started with him or around him.
I read his book 'Wake up and roar' and I do love it.
Many westerners began to flock around him and thereafter suddenly this Neo-Advaita western teachers began to pop up everywhere.

I don't say they are all humbug, surely not.

Maybe it is also a sign that it suddenly becomes so much easier to grasp the truth as the consciousness is indeed rising on this planet. I would like to believe that. I think our generation had indeed a more difficult start then the current one.

Here it might be important to note, that Poonja was a normal married man, living a normal life of work and care for his family.
It seems he started teaching only after his 'retirement'. So there was no 'escaping' of his responsibilities or duties in society. He had his feet firmly on the ground.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._W._L._Poonja

Bhusunda

[Tony]

... But...and this is my main concern...there is an aversion to any form of spiritual education/practice/intellectual understanding/critical thinking/evaluation. This worries me a lot! Is it necessary to have a self-induced lobotomy in order to get in touch with my true nature?


Exactly my feeling, the tendency to stop thinking and discerning is kind of worrying. Especially if you stop engaging into anything.
Didn't Krishna ask Arjuna to continue fighting, despite his realization of his true nature?

Bhusunda

I know how Arjuna felt.... to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or by opposing end them!
Well, the suffering of sentient beings are endless, so this body and mind has to play its part. While Pure essence merely looks on.
Perhaps we are Krishna and Arjuna all in one!

[jorr lundstrom]

Mooji, is a disciple of Papaji. After all, it seems that we without tradition may
live in this world too. One white bird is enough to prove that white birds do exist.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AvtoGkpBak&feature=uploademail


Jorr

[Bhusunda]

Mooji, is a disciple of Papaji. After all, it seems that we without tradition may
live in this world too. One white bird is enough to prove that white birds do exist.
Jorr

Thanks Jorr,
the message of Mooji in this video resonates strongly in me.
Acceptance of what is and the play I take part. Enjoying being myself without attachment to it.
No flight, no need to get somewhere.
:wizard:
Bhusunda

[Tarka the Duck]

After all, it seems that we without tradition may
live in this world too.

Jorr

What does "without tradition" actually mean? How can we possibly be without tradition?

Every idea or thought we have comes from somewhere...and even if we come up with something we think is original, it's sure to have come from one of the traditions.
Is there really anything new under the sun?

I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who said that in order to be original, one has to turn back to the origin.

[jorr lundstrom]

Tarka the Duck wrote:

Jorr
What does "without tradition" actually mean? How can we possibly be without tradition?


I dont claim to know wot "without tradition" actually mean. But when i use
the expression " without tradion" I mean: I dont follow any tradition, dont
belong to any tradition cant refer to any tradition.

Every idea or thought we have comes from somewhere...and even if we come up with something we think is original, it's sure to have come from one of the traditions.
Is there really anything new under the sun?

Im not sure about this. Maybe wot people have experienced have
been used to create traditions around.
If there is anything new under the sun I dont know, but I
experience daily phenomenons that are new to me.

I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who said that in order to be original, one has to turn back to the origin.

According to my experience, he was spot on.
Wot about your experience Kathie?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-dRfq5-vK8


Jorr

[Seikou-Kishi]

Tony's original post reminds me of a story David Allany once relayed of a Guru whose son had died. The guru was crying over the death of his son and this was a strange notion for his followers, who believed that the world was illusory and so nothing really mattered. They asked him why he was crying and said 'but he was just an illusion' and the master replied 'yes, but what a beautiful illusion he was'.

It's tempting to come out with the standard (and actually pretty nihilistic) line 'Oh, it's all just an illusion anyway', but I would challenge most people to say that to a child abuse victim, to a rape victim or to a cancer patient. I think most people here would be too overcome with compassion to trot out that favourite spiritual line at that time. The world might be an illusion, but the people in it are everything.