The Cult of Normal and its minions.

[songsfortheotherkind]

It rules our childhoods, dominates our lives, surrounds us, envelopes us, seeks to define, determine and dictate our Beings, our thoughts, our Essence, until there is nothing but programming left.

http://http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2680342845_46309532a8.jpg?v=0

So the dominant paradigm creates the culture, the values, the thinking, the 'logic', the science, the education, the religion, the concepts of relationship, relating, love, right, wrong, in a tangle like a big bunch of coathangers.

From this polluted ground springs other toxins and conditions. One of these is the Doctrine of Truth. This is where the previously carefully nurtured conflicting information sets get to clash, scream at, attack, abuse, wage war and attempt to dominate and control each other, using often elaborate, impressive and wonderfully crafted evidences in order to persuade others to join in agreement and engage in a group energy sharing via consensus. Truth is a monumental trade item and the more individuals one can persuade to one's cause, the more Truthful one can proclaim things to be.

This works in very small groups as well; one doesn't have to be attempting to convince millions, one can be intently concerned with a group of three. The intent and purpose is the *convincing*, the persuasion, the goal of agreement and consensus. It's insidious and rampant. For some, the game is unconscious and is played by 'feeling', without awareness that the 'feelings' have been manipulated and contorted by a wide variety of elements; the flip side is that 'thinking' has also been manipulated and becomes a recursive loop of its own. So, what then is Truth?

Where did the concept of a concrete 'truth' even come from? Personally I wasn't born with one and struggled mightily against having one imposed on me- I didn't like the way that 'truth' sought to strangle me into a narrow and constrictive world of limited possibility, function and utter lack of imagination, not to mention a spiritual desert inhabited only by shrieking demons and a blood lusting god. 'Truth' was expounded to me from many and varied directions and here is what I discovered about it- 'truth' apparently made individuals and collectives utterly miserable.

I learned to take a huge psychic step backwards from anyone telling me they had 'the truth' even when my body wasn't permitted to do so. I went through a long dark shadow period where 'truth' in its many interesting forms sank its sharp teeth into my spirit and tried to suck the life from me, leaving me to hold onto the absolute core of my essence with nothing but the spark within me to guide me, head down, grimly clinging with bloodied hands to what I knew to be true about myself in the face of bombardments of 'truth', this truth that wanted me to be afraid of everything, to have no hope, to believe that all individuals were nothing but the walking dead that simply wanted to eat my spirit, in true Golden Compass style.

I held on and gradually learned to clear the noise, to hear myself again and to listen in the stillness for the Song of the Multiverse as it manifests *to me*- not to anyone else, not in its entirety. I learned to turn away from demands for 'proof' of my experiences, my wanderings in the Field, for evidences that would satisfy those who had nominated themselves as Truth Police, Reality Inspectors, those who set themselves up as the Judges of the experience of others and who felt it their right and privilege to decide if something was 'legitimate' or not, met the correct standards as determined by the backup of experts, or those who agreed with the parameters, or any other standardising marker.

I learned that all those markers were entirely subjective and meant absolutely nothing about me or my experience at all; they were simply indicators of the realities and truths of the speakers, a realm that began and ended with the individual. I saw the numbers games that were being played, the hallelujah chorus of the comfortable idea that one is part of a collective at the expense of the voice of Essence within, the lengths that individuals and groups were prepared to go in order to enforce those subjective and collectivised realities onto others- lobotomies, electroshock therapy, the drugging of children to enforce conformity, incarceration, humiliation, death, shunning- and I looked with increasing disinterest at the idea of 'truth', seeing instead the rotten hulk behind the mask.

Once upon a time it was 'true' that the earth was flat, that women were spiritually inferior to men, that women and children were nothing but the property of men to be bought and sold, used and abused or disposed of at will; once upon a time it was true that individuals who understood herbalism were in league with the devil and needed to be tortured and burned, that those who loved members of their own sex were perversions of nature that needed to be locked away in asylums until they were 'cured'; so many 'truths' that turned out to be nothing more than a reflection of an inelegant and clunky spiritual and evolutionary path to something, somewhere else.

History is littered with 'truths' that turned out to be nothing of the sort; individuals have fought and died for truths that emerged later to have been blatant lies and manipulations, but at their very core, in the quiet space inside, the individuals who followed knew this to be true. They knew it wasn't honorable, 'righteous', to kill, to maim, to take up arms, to poison the water and burn the earth, they felt the guilt and the shame and did it anyway for a 'truth' they'd be trained to obey greater than their own spirit.

I have come through my own tests and have discovered the absolute beauty of my own spirit, despite the best efforts of the mind virus, religion and everything else to convince me that my spirit was flawed, evil, corrupted, untrustworthy and all the other bespelling we are subjected to. I know that 'truth' is utterly subjective and *an indication of where I'm at in my evolution and path*, NOT an indicator of any absolute rules, situations, regulations, solidity or any other stake in the ground to indicate some kind of territory; the only territory any individual can set a stake in is their internal landscape- try setting any kind of stake in the ground outside our Self and watch the sparks, words, energy, fists, bombs, upset, confusion, minsunderstandings, struggles, battles erupt- essentially all the same old, same old, same old that regurgitates throughout the paradigm.

I have had PMs already telling me to be careful here, the dominant paradigm reaches into even this forum- and of course it does, if the same old, same old, same old is regurgitated here too. If there is a vision for something different to happen, it makes absolute sense that the visioners must do something differently.

What if the visioners no longer focused on the search for 'absolute truth' of any kind with a view to it being laid over others and embraced a fluidity of Being that was incapable of stressing out over the 'truths' of any other individual? What happens if a 'truth' becomes just another style of pants that we either feel like wearing in that moment or we don't? What happens if these choices have no moral or other judgements that go with them, either from within or without? What would happen if we dropped judgement altogether and simply watched one another with interest, exploring the choices from our own subjectivity, able to make choices about our experience without any of the constructions of 'this is truth and THAT isn't' about everything outside of ourselves?

What happens if the gaskets that we blow over 'truths' are embraced with enthusiasm as indicators of interesting places to explore *within our own landscape* rather than reasons to arm ourselves with righteousness and go into battle to defend our perspectives, beliefs, ideologies or any of the other things we've picked up along the way and decided were ours? What if the 'pursuit of truth' was accepted as just another way of looking for clues about nothing more than the Self , that all that is discovered in the process is what is right and perfect for the path of the individual who is doing the looking?

I fully get the perspectives that talk about 'everything is us' , there is no separation, *and* many Beings are simply not in that place yet, so what might some of the steps be in getting further along more interesting paths than are currently being trod? I personally don't go into the 'we're all one' space simply because I'm experiencing and playing in another space- fundamentally I get it, I know what that is *and* for me it's all 'yeah yeah *waves hands impatiently* I *get* that but I'm here doing something else and that's what I'm interested in exploring'. There is no language here that adequately embraces the 'is/is not' of things- I/We in the same space do not cancel each other out, it simply creates a space for reeeeally interesting explorations and adventures- and then if one happens to hook up with others who not only get it but also know how to play with it... *bouncing happydance* :D

In my 'Verse (which, btw, is my shorthand for Multiverse) the dogma of 'truth' is an attempt to cripple or halt the slidey, the fluid, the 'who would I like to play at Being now?', enforcing the solid state 'personality' and all the myriads of conditioned behaviours and robotic social programs that are designed to create individuals that make *others* feel comfortable by not doing anything UNcomfortable. Remember the movie Jumper? Apart from being rather ordinary, the really profound bit for me was the depiction of a group of murderous religionists who went around killing all Jumpers because, in their view, only 'god' had the right to that ability. In my experience, those who attempt to enforce their 'truth' onto things outside their jurisdiction (their internal landscape and realm) are just like that group, insisting that, if they can't have their way, then they're going to kill all evidence that emerges to indicate that the world *isn't* how they proclaim it to be. It's ugly, isn't it?

So Yeeeeees. Erm.... noooo, I think I'll pass on the whole 'truth' thing, thanks, because I've found something way more shiny and fun over *here* and I'm going to go do that instead. :D

I hereby affirm that if any individual feels compelled to 'truth' me I'm not going to comply- my agreement with one point in a perspective does not mean I'm buying the whole enchilada, all points on my compass are entirely subjective, because it's my north that it points to, not yours...

[davyj0nes]

i saw the title of this thread and it immediately reminded me of a song by the band, Papa Roach; tyranny of normality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg7D4w5JGn4

[TargeT]

It So Yeeeeees. Erm.... noooo, I think I'll pass on the whole 'truth' thing, thanks, because I've found something way more shiny and fun over *here* and I'm going to go do that instead. :D




apparently there is some confusion here,, let me try and clear it up:


truth noun \ˈtrüth\
plural truths\ˈtrüthz, ˈtrüths\
Definition of TRUTH
1a archaic : fidelity, constancy b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance
2a (1) : the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics> c : the body of true statements and propositions
3a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality b chiefly British : true 2 c : fidelity to an original or to a standard
4capitalized Christian Science : god
— in truth
: in accordance with fact : actually
See truth defined for English-language learners »
See truth defined for kids »
Examples of TRUTH
At some point you have to face the simple truth that we failed.
Their explanation was simpler but came closer to the truth.
The article explains the truth about global warming.
A reporter soon discovered the truth.
Do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
Her story contains a grain of truth but also lots of exaggeration.
Origin of TRUTH
Middle English trewthe, from Old English trēowth fidelity; akin to Old English trēowe faithful — more at true
First Known Use: before 12th century

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/truth

There, now you should be able to recalibrate your self

[Lefty Dave]

Enjoyed reading your position on truth....am giving it some thought ...thanks

[songsfortheotherkind]

/headtilt/ was this a post made in jest? because if it *was*, that wasn't clear.

Here's my response if it wasn't.




There, now you should be able to recalibrate your self

To your standards, meanings, definitions? So what happens when your 'truth' clashes with that person over there? Or the Christian 'truth' clashes with the Muslim? Or the scientific with anything deemed 'not' scientific?

*grinning* I saw what you did there, you just did exactly what I posted about! Now how is that, I wonder... did it make you feel comfortably superior when you did it? Do you feel better thinking that you know I 'need' recalibrating and that gosh darn it, you're just the individual to point out exactly *how* that needs to happen? "Lo, and unto them shall be given a new Oracle of Truth, and that Oracle shall be known as 'Kevin'- uh, no, wait, that was something else, where the dickens...aha! there it is- *ahem* and lo, that Oracle shall be known as the Merriam Webster dictionary, preferably the online version".

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll pass anyway, no negative intentions meant or taken. :)

[TargeT]

/headtilt/ was this a post made in jest? because if it *was*, that wasn't clear.

Nope, it was meant for clarity.



Here's my response if it wasn't.




There, now you should be able to recalibrate your self

To your standards, meanings, definitions? So what happens when your 'truth' clashes with that person over there? Or the Christian 'truth' clashes with the Muslim? Or the scientific with anything deemed 'not' scientific?

*grinning* I saw what you did there, you just did exactly what I posted about! Now how is that, I wonder... did it make you feel comfortably superior when you did it? Do you feel better thinking that you know I 'need' recalibrating and that gosh darn it, you're just the individual to point out exactly *how* that needs to happen? "Lo, and unto them shall be given a new Oracle of Truth, and that Oracle shall be known as 'Kevin'- uh, no, wait, that was something else, where the dickens...aha! there it is- *ahem* and lo, that Oracle shall be known as the Merriam Webster dictionary, preferably the online version".

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll pass anyway, no negative intentions meant or taken. :)

I did not offer my standards or my definitions, you see Grammar is a very important thing, and Language is used (correctly) in a formulatic way.

Christian "truth" is not a truth, nor is Muslim "truth" your examples are nonsensical when the correct definition of the word is applied.

Truth means one thing and no other, there are no "feelings" involved, there is either emperical proof and "knowing" of truth, or there isn't and its an emotional byproduct meant to waste your time; my attempt here was not to feel superior or suggest that you NEED anything.

I saw a post that seemed to prevert and corrupt the word "truth" with out even mentioning its defintion, so I figured I'd offer it.. Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric.. this is the trivium and Grammar is first for a very important reason.

Math equations will not function if we have a break down in the understanding of what the number "2" means, the same goes for communication and language when Grammar is corrupted (aka linquistic drift).

[aranuk]

Too many words here and too many concepts. I was flowing with what you were saying ok. But you were wandering away with other things. One thing at a time. Where is the priority here? What is the first thing we should consider? Clarity I think.

Stan

Edit: I was replying to opening post.

[songsfortheotherkind]

i saw the title of this thread and it immediately reminded me of a song by the band, Papa Roach; tyranny of normality.

I like that a lot, the concept of the 'tyranny' of normality. It's funny (in a Pythonesque way). :D I used to get in such a tangle about it but now I see it as an opportunity to refine the signal *in me* rather than be freaked out by the proliferation of social hypnotoads and psychological zombie shrooms- after all, just because the bottle says 'drink me' doesn't mean I have to do it...

:D

as Frank the Zappa once said, it's a dangerous kitchen (out there)...

[songsfortheotherkind]

Too many words here and too many concepts. I was flowing with what you were saying ok. But you were wandering away with other things. One thing at a time. Where is the priority here? What is the first thing we should consider? Clarity I think. Stan

I write the way my mind works- one person's wandering is another person's perfectly clear continuum. This is posted after me editing it, lol- this is me condensed and tightly reined in, being careful to try and present only one concept at a time. Everything interconnects with everything else to me, so I'm really conscious of having to choke my stream of consciousness down to a narrow field in order to communicate anything at all.

Perhaps you can simply break the post up in a text editing program and read it according to the way you prefer to, I often do this with things I find on the net that are interesting in content but frustrating in format or style. I get that others are not always going to write in such a way as to suit my preferences (such as those that seem to have the exclamation mark function and caps lock set on permanent 'ON'), so I adapt things to suit. :)

[CdnSirian]

Bravo for approaching this subject. :clap2:

[Carmen]

Love your thread Songsfortheotherkind. I could not have expressed it,(truth as it is for me) better.

My journey to truth and understanding is mine and mine alone. It flows and ebbs, grows and developes. Freedom of thought and choice to explore, warts and all, is my prerogative.

[songsfortheotherkind]

/headtilt/ was this a post made in jest? because if it *was*, that wasn't clear.

Nope, it was meant for clarity.

I did not offer my standards or my definitions, you see Grammar is a very important thing, and Language is used (correctly) in a formulatic way.

Christian "truth" is not a truth, nor is Muslim "truth" your examples are nonsensical when the correct definition of the word is applied.

Definition of TRUTH
1a archaic : fidelity, constancy b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance

Your example would indicate otherwise. My head tilts and I begin to ask such things as - which sincerity? who or what defines the sincerity of the action, character and utterance? To a Christian or a Muslim there is a very specific parameters of 'truth' that inspires such sincerity of action, character and utterance, just as there are very specific parameters of other 'truth' in many other fields that promote action, character and utterance. Is, for example, a vegan that eats chicken actually a vegan even if they sincerely believe that they are? I am sure that many of those torturers during the Inquisitions were absolutely sincere, as have been many Legionnaires. *shrugs* So I decline your explanation and rebuttal of my point given my perspective on some of the definitions supplied.


Truth means one thing and no other, there are no "feelings" involved, there is either emperical proof and "knowing" of truth, or there isn't

We are on two different planets here, obviously. I cannot begin to encompass this given my perspective as expressed in the above response- how does one have empirical proof for truths that are entirely subjective, such as religion, science et al?


(3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics>

These are all subjective- 'accepted' as true? By what parameters, the rule of democratic numbers? Royal decree? Utterances from on high? What on earth is a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality and who is the body/group that gets to decree this? The Pope? Mob rule? The finger of 'god' coming down from the sky? My religious book is older than your religious book nyahnyah I win?

0-o

Um, again, no. This really doesn't change my perspective and experience at all- it actually confirms it. So shall we agree that, at least in this subject, we're discussing things from two different planets? I have been hit over the head with 'logic' sticks since I was two, I am my Self and that works for me. *waves tentacles in a friendly and undulating fashion*


Math equations will not function if we have a break down in the understanding of what the number "2" means, the same goes for communication and language when Grammar is corrupted (aka linquistic drift).

0-o Are you suggesting to me that mathematics and language are the same thing? And that language and linguistics are the same thing? Language is organic, an eco-system of communication that evolves and shifts as the user/s evolve and shift. 'Meaning' shifts even within a single generation- take the word 'spunk', for instance. Generations create words and drop words out, context and application change (describing someone as 'gay' 100 years ago, not the same as today)- morphing, adapting, evolving, subjective. I do not for one second assume that the word 'love' means the same thing for myself as it does for another regardless of how many dictionary definitions one pokes at the other individual; base lines can be useful at times in the most minimal of ways but if you wish to truly understand another individual one has to put aside one's *own* parameters and be prepared to see through another's eyes, to open one's mind to a completely different perspective. At least, that's how it happens in my 'Verse. I know there are many other ways, they just don't work for me.

As for dictionary definitions, there are words in other, not English languages that one almost needs to be raised in the culture to truly grokk- there are words in Gaelic that defy explanation in English; such words require a willingness to go quiet and listen with different ears to the culture, the experience, the energy of what is being expressed before the word reveals itself. Sometimes this could take a really, really long time. Most non-English languages have words like this, but Gaelic particularly springs to mind in this moment. And even within those cultures the use of these words is subjective, subtle inferences and inflections of meaning that need to be called out into the space. So what happens then?

Ens legis has been created with specific goals in mind, the language of commerce. What happens with languages that have arisen from a desire to create platforms for exploration of matters and experiences not readily definable, concrete, immovable? What happens with languages that have arisen as a platform for fluidity? Those are the languages I seek to embrace and transmit. All of my communications here are made holding that intention within me.

[songsfortheotherkind]

My journey to truth and understanding is mine and mine alone. It flows and ebbs, grows and developes. Freedom of thought and choice to explore, warts and all, is my prerogative.

I love those words- flow, ebb, develop- fluidity, nuance-'freedom of thought and choice'; these concepts and experiences are to me taste like the joy of dancing underwater...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVRcHkmMjx8&feature=related

:)

[TargeT]

Your example would indicate otherwise. My head tilts and I begin to ask such things as - which sincerity? who or what defines the sincerity of the action, character and utterance? To a Christian or a Muslim there is a very specific parameters of 'truth' that inspires such sincerity of action, character and utterance, just as there are very specific parameters of other 'truth' in many other fields that promote action, character and utterance. Is, for example, a vegan that eats chicken actually a vegan even if they sincerely believe that they are? I am sure that many of those torturers during the Inquisitions were absolutely sincere, as have been many Legionnaires. *shrugs* So I decline your explanation and rebuttal of my point given my perspective on some of the definitions supplied.


I guess I choose to function on the belief that there is an absolute truth and it should be sought after, now that I think of it intent is important, but we live in a dualistic world I feel and there are truths and untruths; your very argument here is attempting to prove a truth (as you've noted english forces this, it is a language of negotiation and (IMO) deceit)




Truth means one thing and no other, there are no "feelings" involved, there is either emperical proof and "knowing" of truth, or there isn't

We are on two different planets here, obviously. I cannot begin to encompass this given my perspective as expressed in the above response- how does one have empirical proof for truths that are entirely subjective, such as religion, science et al?


Good thought, I supose this is where "faith" comes in then?





(3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics>

These are all subjective- 'accepted' as true? By what parameters, the rule of democratic numbers? Royal decree? Utterances from on high? What on earth is a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality and who is the body/group that gets to decree this? The Pope? Mob rule? The finger of 'god' coming down from the sky? My religious book is older than your religious book nyahnyah I win?

0-o

Um, again, no. This really doesn't change my perspective and experience at all- it actually confirms it. So shall we agree that, at least in this subject, we're discussing things from two different planets? I have been hit over the head with 'logic' sticks since I was two, I am my Self and that works for me. *waves tentacles in a friendly and undulating fashion*

again, you are arguing for what you think is a truth (in my mind), you seem to distane this yet argue for your version of it, I think (know) you were using "truth" in the first post as a derogitory term for people who dispute things & now you are giving me an uncertainty-as-truth

I think we can definately agree that there are falsehoods out there (in my mind so many that the truth is a rare gem) I doubt we are very far from agreeance on this topic, I've never discussed it before (and so, I don't even really understand where I stand) I don't have a strong conviction here but I can't go with "there is no truth".






Math equations will not function if we have a break down in the understanding of what the number "2" means, the same goes for communication and language when Grammar is corrupted (aka linquistic drift).

0-o Are you suggesting to me that mathematics and language are the same thing? And that language and linguistics are the same thing? Language is organic, an eco-system of communication that evolves and shifts as the user/s evolve and shift. 'Meaning' shifts even within a single generation- take the word 'spunk', for instance. Generations create words and drop words out, context and application change (describing someone as 'gay' 100 years ago, not the same as today)- morphing, adapting, evolving, subjective. I do not for one second assume that the word 'love' means the same thing for myself as it does for another regardless of how many dictionary definitions one pokes at the other individual; base lines can be useful at times in the most minimal of ways but if you wish to truly understand another individual one has to put aside one's *own* parameters and be prepared to see through another's eyes, to open one's mind to a completely different perspective. At least, that's how it happens in my 'Verse. I know there are many other ways, they just don't work for me.

your "spunk" example is an example of lingustic drift, a corruption of language (IMO).. (maybe I should just learn latin)

I think I was suggesting that languaged should be used from a base of common understanding and math is an excelent example of that, I write probably the same as you, I just sit down and type, I can type faster than I think and I don't self edit, I go back and read what I've written to see how my brain is working & to help identify area's I need more "thought on", this topic for example.

when trying to communicate with another individual I think it is very important that understanding (through truths) is the paramount objective; else you are being deceptive and your intent is wrong.

so again, your original post is deceptive as you are exagerating a point at the expensive of truth, your frustration of "skeptics" could be expressed otherwise I think .

[NancyV]

I have no problem with other people's truths as I choose to let them be who they are and believe how they choose to believe (even if I may consider them to be temporarily ignorant, "evil", or insane!). For myself....I see truth as a human concept which has little relevance the minute you leave your body and NO relevance as you attain higher vibrational states. TRUTHS are totally subjective interpretations of transitory agendas and states of being that simply do not exist outside the human and lower astral realms. Even in the lower astral realms one can create from thought anything they can imagine....so what is "true"? When everything is transitory and illusionary all "truths" crumble, "laws" of physics are irrelevant...and when there is no death and others cannot be hurt or killed, morals and ethics are nonexistent and completely unnecessary. It's all about the game and the game is limited only by ones imagination.

I reached the point where I knew that existence was a game and I realized that no truths which are explained in language or mathematics so they can be grasped by the human mind will translate into the state of wholeness. I consider existence to be the state one enters upon separation from the Source, no matter what density one exists in. Even when I was very young I did not accept others truths. Sure, I have tried on different philosophies and theories but I always reached a point where they were never sufficient and did not contain wholeness. I found it much easier to be a contrarian and reject anything that didn't feel good, knowing that even if I accepted it temporarily it was only as a part of this game I am playing which is exclusive to me.

I do not accept anyone else's truths and also I do not desire or care for anyone else's agreement with my understandings, otherwise I would be propagating my own agenda. It's very freeing to be happy to be oneself and to know that one is whole without confirmation from outside. Of course it's always fun to discuss things as it can help clarify your own feelings, but needing agreement from others is not a prerequisite for my self worth or completeness. So called truths, whether scientific, philosophical, moral or psychological are merely tools and chess pieces that we may use in this transitory 3D game of existence.

If I felt compelled to define an absolute truth or to describe it in words I would say it is wholeness or Source. As to whether one "should" seek after it....it is an inevitability. We all seek wholeness whether we realize it or not. This is why we seek love as it makes us feel more whole because wholeness/Source is all about love. Just as a moth is drawn to a flame, we are inexorably drawn to Source.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Your example would indicate otherwise. My head tilts and I begin to ask such things as - which sincerity? who or what defines the sincerity of the action, character and utterance? To a Christian or a Muslim there is a very specific parameters of 'truth' that inspires such sincerity of action, character and utterance, just as there are very specific parameters of other 'truth' in many other fields that promote action, character and utterance. Is, for example, a vegan that eats chicken actually a vegan even if they sincerely believe that they are? I am sure that many of those torturers during the Inquisitions were absolutely sincere, as have been many Legionnaires. *shrugs* So I decline your explanation and rebuttal of my point given my perspective on some of the definitions supplied.


I guess I choose to function on the belief that there is an absolute truth and it should be sought after, now that I think of it intent is important, but we live in a dualistic world I feel and there are truths and untruths; your very argument here is attempting to prove a truth (as you've noted english forces this, it is a language of negotiation and (IMO) deceit)




Truth means one thing and no other, there are no "feelings" involved, there is either emperical proof and "knowing" of truth, or there isn't

We are on two different planets here, obviously. I cannot begin to encompass this given my perspective as expressed in the above response- how does one have empirical proof for truths that are entirely subjective, such as religion, science et al?


Good thought, I supose this is where "faith" comes in then?





(3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics>

These are all subjective- 'accepted' as true? By what parameters, the rule of democratic numbers? Royal decree? Utterances from on high? What on earth is a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality and who is the body/group that gets to decree this? The Pope? Mob rule? The finger of 'god' coming down from the sky? My religious book is older than your religious book nyahnyah I win?

0-o

Um, again, no. This really doesn't change my perspective and experience at all- it actually confirms it. So shall we agree that, at least in this subject, we're discussing things from two different planets? I have been hit over the head with 'logic' sticks since I was two, I am my Self and that works for me. *waves tentacles in a friendly and undulating fashion*

again, you are arguing for what you think is a truth (in my mind), you seem to distane this yet argue for your version of it, I think (know) you were using "truth" in the first post as a derogitory term for people who dispute things & now you are giving me an uncertainty-as-truth

I think we can definately agree that there are falsehoods out there (in my mind so many that the truth is a rare gem) I doubt we are very far from agreeance on this topic, I've never discussed it before (and so, I don't even really understand where I stand) I don't have a strong conviction here but I can't go with "there is no truth".






Math equations will not function if we have a break down in the understanding of what the number "2" means, the same goes for communication and language when Grammar is corrupted (aka linquistic drift).

0-o Are you suggesting to me that mathematics and language are the same thing? And that language and linguistics are the same thing? Language is organic, an eco-system of communication that evolves and shifts as the user/s evolve and shift. 'Meaning' shifts even within a single generation- take the word 'spunk', for instance. Generations create words and drop words out, context and application change (describing someone as 'gay' 100 years ago, not the same as today)- morphing, adapting, evolving, subjective. I do not for one second assume that the word 'love' means the same thing for myself as it does for another regardless of how many dictionary definitions one pokes at the other individual; base lines can be useful at times in the most minimal of ways but if you wish to truly understand another individual one has to put aside one's *own* parameters and be prepared to see through another's eyes, to open one's mind to a completely different perspective. At least, that's how it happens in my 'Verse. I know there are many other ways, they just don't work for me.

your "spunk" example is an example of lingustic drift, a corruption of language (IMO).. (maybe I should just learn latin)

I think I was suggesting that languaged should be used from a base of common understanding and math is an excelent example of that, I write probably the same as you, I just sit down and type, I can type faster than I think and I don't self edit, I go back and read what I've written to see how my brain is working & to help identify area's I need more "thought on", this topic for example.

when trying to communicate with another individual I think it is very important that understanding (through truths) is the paramount objective; else you are being deceptive and your intent is wrong.

so again, your original post is deceptive as you are exagerating a point at the expensive of truth, your frustration of "skeptics" could be expressed otherwise I think .

From my original post:


What if the visioners no longer focused on the search for 'absolute truth' of any kind with a view to it being laid over others and embraced a fluidity of Being that was incapable of stressing out over the 'truths' of any other individual?
What if the 'pursuit of truth' was accepted as just another way of looking for clues about nothing more than the Self , that all that is discovered in the process is what is right and perfect for the path of the individual who is doing the looking? (emphasis added for this post).

Here is the last line of your post above:


so again, your original post is deceptive as you are exagerating a point at the expensive of truth, your frustration of "skeptics" could be expressed otherwise I think . (emphasis mine).

In my original post I was describing things from my perspective, asking questions and exploring the implications as they occurred *to me* regarding those questions, and exploring a possibility that would move the experiences I have had in my life around this topic into a whole new and *far* more interesting realm: that of the one where the *individual* takes responsibility for the exploration of their path with a view to *not pushing it onto others*. That is the intent, purpose and exploration of that post. My perspective has not changed since I posted it; to the contrary, the frequency of my experience has refined. This is an awesome thing, in my world. :)

Given the two quotes that I posted above, what can be seen is a) an encapsulation of what my post was about and b) your subjective response to it. You (I) think' is subjective. Your reference to 'spunk' contains an assertion that this is simply linguistic drift and then you add '(IMO)', which is subjective. This bit is another example of the headtilty I have with how you communicate your perspective-


when trying to communicate with another individual I think it is very important that understanding (through truths) is the paramount objective; else you are being deceptive and your intent is wrong.

Here's how my brain works when I see this: 'truths? what truths? truth is subjective, so are they talking about cultivating understanding through the exchange of subjective truths and perspectives? but that's not what is written, so are they talking from a perspective that encompasses the concept that there are absolute truths? truth is subjective- even thinking that truth is subjective is subjective, because my subjective experience of 'truth is subjective' isn't going to look exactly like any other individual's experience of 'truth is subjective'-'

*waves hands* So far your responses have highlighted, at least to me, exactly the points I was initially making: truth is subjective and that there appear to me to be much more effective processes available to engage in communication/exchange with others than trying to enforce/persuade another/others to a particular 'truth'. Intention and purpose are paramount in this: I have affirmed that part of my intent and purpose was to express the ideas with a view to discussion and discovery- I'm interested in exchanging with other individuals who are interested in holding this perspective when engaging with each other and the 'external **' world, given that the choice has been made to explore the Multiverse as a Singularity within the All. Sui Generis, Singularity, unique, of it's own kind, contains an inherent element of subjectivity, which includes subjectivity ABOUT 'subjectivity'.

*I* am not initiating a conversation regarding the correctness or incorrectness of the 'truths' that any particular individual may hold; said individual is free to hold whatever truths they wish, and it has been my observation that they will quite possibly run into all kinds of energetic dissonance if/when they try to enforce those 'truths' on to another Being or frequency. That's my observation and so, being the kind of Being I happen to be at this point in time, I have my feelers tuned for possibilities that bypass the dissonance and move into more embracing and co-creative expressions of connection, communication, visioning and a whole swathe of other things.

I'm not interested in debating 'truth'. I've observed such inclination to debating or imposing truth (and where the given definition for 'debating' can embrace armed conflict, world war, genocide, maiming, domestic violence, the stoning of women, female circumcision, male circumcision, starvation, global inequity, etc etc) for a long, loooooooooong time and it hasn't gotten any less boring that it was when I was 7 and had figured out the flaws in the process. I don't do recursive because hello it's, um, recursive, a dead end energy, and dead ended energy signals aren't where I like to play. What I AM interested in is 'hmm, this old way of doing things creates a fertile ground for conflict, energy cul-de-sacs, dead ends, red herrings, distractions, traps and other things I don't find particularly interesting or helpful. I wonder what's out there that can create far more interesting foundations for interacting with other Beings? I shall explore those and see who/what shows up'.

That's what I'm doing- taking action to explore something that is far more interesting to me than semantic debates.*I fully recognise that for many individuals semantic debates are stimulating and fun, just as some individuals like to play chess. I am not infringing upon the rights of those individuals to enjoy either, or any number of other things I don't find particularly interesting. I'm simply looking for individuals that want to explore the themes and ideas I have put forward. * I *also* fully grasp that there are some individuals that won't get the understanding of this purpose and intent, no matter how many disclaimers I write or how finely I put a point on it- I'm *not* being specific about you, TargeT, I'm now stating something that I have experienced and am talking about something that I'm aware of, being in a forum. It is with this in mind that I'm writing this now, because I'm not going to keep writing it, nor am I going to respond in each instance to such things as 'we are all ONE, there is no 'external', we are all Source' because while I am more than intellectually, emotionally and spiritually equipped to understand these things as they are, they also in the same moment are not and that's the bit that I go exploring in. By choice. Because I like to.

(**As an aside and again not to you specifically, it's going to get really tedious if I have to constantly put caveats around every possible flag word, with disclaimers and footnotes, because of the tendency of some to take a word out of a post and apply a perspective to it rather than address the body and intention of the post, particularly responses along the 'we are all ONE, there is no external, we are all nothing but a dream' experiences etc etc. If I post about something I'm exploring an idea; the suggestion that, because I'm exploring the idea 'means' I'm not aware of these other things gets really recursive. It's such a good word, recursive, it describes closed systems in such an elegant way. I'm not interested in closed systems. I experience those sorts of responses as closed systems because once the position is stated there's nowhere that's interesting- at least for my Self-to go with it. I don't enjoy philosophical discussion that has no new evolution, no new possibilities for creating, I get that there are others who have subjective opinions about those things, I get what those subjective opinions are and that's not what I'm talking about. )

If there is something unknown, such as in seeing a word that subjectively means something *to me* that seems strange in the context of the post, in my world asking a question is waaayy more productive than a response that makes a whole swathe of assumptions. I have zero issue with questions (unless they are recursive)- assumption and blanket statements incline me to not wanting to engage, they drain the energy out of the interaction for me. Some individuals might have the patience for assumption. For me, it's like this- *scrapes fingernails repeatedly down a blackboard*. I'm not one of those individuals who enjoy that sound.

[TargeT]

Here's how my brain works when I see this: 'truths? what truths? truth is subjective, so are they talking about cultivating understanding through the exchange of subjective truths and perspectives? but that's not what is written, so are they talking from a perspective that encompasses the concept that there are absolute truths? truth is subjective- even thinking that truth is subjective is subjective, because my subjective experience of 'truth is subjective' isn't going to look exactly like any other individual's experience of 'truth is subjective'-'

*waves hands* So far your responses have highlighted, at least to me, exactly the points I was initially making: truth is subjective and that there appear to me to be much more effective processes available to engage in communication/exchange with others than trying to enforce/persuade another/others to a particular 'truth'. Intention and purpose are paramount in this: I have affirmed that part of my intent and purpose was to express the ideas with a view to discussion and discovery- I'm interested in exchanging with other individuals who are interested in holding this perspective when engaging with each other and the 'external **' world, given that the choice has been made to explore the Multiverse as a Singularity within the All. Sui Generis, Singularity, unique, of it's own kind, contains an inherent element of subjectivity, which includes subjectivity ABOUT 'subjectivity'.

*I* am not initiating a conversation regarding the correctness or incorrectness of the 'truths' that any particular individual may hold; said individual is free to hold whatever truths they wish, and it has been my observation that they will quite possibly run into all kinds of energetic dissonance if/when they try to enforce those 'truths' on to another Being or frequency. That's my observation and so, being the kind of Being I happen to be at this point in time, I have my feelers tuned for possibilities that bypass the dissonance and move into more embracing and co-creative expressions of connection, communication, visioning and a whole swathe of other things.

I'm not interested in debating 'truth'. I've observed such inclination to debating or imposing truth (and where the given definition for 'debating' can embrace armed conflict, world war, genocide, maiming, domestic violence, the stoning of women, female circumcision, male circumcision, starvation, global inequity, etc etc) for a long, loooooooooong time and it hasn't gotten any less boring that it was when I was 7 and had figured out the flaws in the process. I don't do recursive because hello it's, um, recursive, a dead end energy, and dead ended energy signals aren't where I like to play. What I AM interested in is 'hmm, this old way of doing things creates a fertile ground for conflict, energy cul-de-sacs, dead ends, red herrings, distractions, traps and other things I don't find particularly interesting or helpful. I wonder what's out there that can create far more interesting foundations for interacting with other Beings? I shall explore those and see who/what shows up'.

That's what I'm doing- taking action to explore something that is far more interesting to me than semantic debates.*I fully recognise that for many individuals semantic debates are stimulating and fun, just as some individuals like to play chess. I am not infringing upon the rights of those individuals to enjoy either, or any number of other things I don't find particularly interesting. I'm simply looking for individuals that want to explore the themes and ideas I have put forward. * I *also* fully grasp that there are some individuals that won't get the understanding of this purpose and intent, no matter how many disclaimers I write or how finely I put a point on it- I'm *not* being specific about you, TargeT, I'm now stating something that I have experienced and am talking about something that I'm aware of, being in a forum. It is with this in mind that I'm writing this now, because I'm not going to keep writing it, nor am I going to respond in each instance to such things as 'we are all ONE, there is no 'external', we are all Source' because while I am more than intellectually, emotionally and spiritually equipped to understand these things as they are, they also in the same moment are not and that's the bit that I go exploring in. By choice. Because I like to.

(**As an aside and again not to you specifically, it's going to get really tedious if I have to constantly put caveats around every possible flag word, with disclaimers and footnotes, because of the tendency of some to take a word out of a post and apply a perspective to it rather than address the body and intention of the post, particularly responses along the 'we are all ONE, there is no external, we are all nothing but a dream' experiences etc etc. If I post about something I'm exploring an idea; the suggestion that, because I'm exploring the idea 'means' I'm not aware of these other things gets really recursive. It's such a good word, recursive, it describes closed systems in such an elegant way. I'm not interested in closed systems. I experience those sorts of responses as closed systems because once the position is stated there's nowhere that's interesting- at least for my Self-to go with it. I don't enjoy philosophical discussion that has no new evolution, no new possibilities for creating, I get that there are others who have subjective opinions about those things, I get what those subjective opinions are and that's not what I'm talking about. )

If there is something unknown, such as in seeing a word that subjectively means something *to me* that seems strange in the context of the post, in my world asking a question is waaayy more productive than a response that makes a whole swathe of assumptions. I have zero issue with questions (unless they are recursive)- assumption and blanket statements incline me to not wanting to engage, they drain the energy out of the interaction for me. Some individuals might have the patience for assumption. For me, it's like this- *scrapes fingernails repeatedly down a blackboard*. I'm not one of those individuals who enjoy that sound.

I agree intent is key, purpose i guess as well though it seems it would be tied to intention.

I'm ashamed to say I didn't give this my full attention and had made some assumptions about your first post, I like what you posted here it makes a lot of sense.

[songsfortheotherkind]

I have no problem with other people's truths as I choose to let them be who they are and believe how they choose to believe (even if I may consider them to be temporarily ignorant, "evil", or insane!).

In the spirit of mutual exploration, may I respectfully share my experience in terms of the word 'choose' as it's been used here? For myself, I don't 'choose' to 'let' them be anything- for me, that's like saying 'I choose to let the sun come up this morning' or 'I choose for the sky to be blue' (without getting into the issue of color being subjectively experienced); my point is that, personally, I don't choose their Sui Generis at all, it simply is. Sometimes things may arise where I am given the opportunity to expand this perspective, such as when an individual's choices create temporary dissonance around me, and what I've discovered for myself is that in those moments it's not the Sui Generis perspective that is at issue, it's managing my own responses-particularly new subtleties or manifestations of a previously challenging frequency- that causes the distortion. I don't choose the actions and behaviour of the sun, the moon, the tides- while it might be possible to do so in some levels of frequency, that also requires of me a knowledge of the complexities of the myriads of ripple effects such choices create and currently I'm not playing in that realm- so I don't go there, it's not my concern, just as the Being of another isn't my 'concern'.

Again, I'm not discounting your comment or trying to be dismissive, I'm saying this with head nodding, a 'ah yes, I get that, this is how I do it' when two individuals with no conflict are sharing their experiences of something.


For myself....I see truth as a human concept which has little relevance the minute you leave your body and NO relevance as you attain higher vibrational states.

I am a Being that gets around the Multiverse by 'walking in' via previously arranged and mutual agreement. In some realms it's possible to just 'wrap' a form around the energy body. I don't do non-corporeal by choice. I *am* curious with the way you have connected two ideas here and I'd like to ask- you have linked 'leaving the body' and higher vibrational states in such a way that it can be taken you view higher vibrational states as being non-corporeal. Is this how you view things?


TRUTHS are totally subjective interpretations of transitory agendas and states of being that simply do not exist outside the human and lower astral realms. Even in the lower astral realms one can create from thought anything they can imagine....so what is "true"?

*grinning* These are some of the elements of the slidey and fluid multiverse I love- exploration and creation...


I reached the point where I knew that existence was a game and I realized that no truths which are explained in language or mathematics so they can be grasped by the human mind will translate into the state of wholeness. I consider existence to be the state one enters upon separation from the Source, no matter what density one exists in.

*nodding* The thing that I found very interesting here (as in, in this global paradigm) is the interpretations that are added to the idea of separation of Source. For a species (using 'species' to describe the human form) that experiences being born from within the mother and the necessity of separation from that 'source' in order to express the individuality of the new Being, there is so much insistence on the pursuit of a 'return' to Source. I've explored the Source Field and observed the space that most Beings here seem to be referring to when they talk about 'Source'; I'm aware of it, I know its energetic signal, I've known Beings that have made the choice to 'return' there and personally I have sub-zero interest in doing so. I don't experience that concept the way other Beings here seem to.


Even when I was very young I did not accept others truths.

*laughing* got myself permanently banned from high school science for that. And experienced a lot of hostility in other ways. It's nice to hear from someone else that had that perspective as a child.


Sure, I have tried on different philosophies and theories but I always reached a point where they were never sufficient and did not contain wholeness. I found it much easier to be a contrarian

I like that! A 'contrarian'. *laughing* My nanna used to have a sign up in her kitchen that read 'Why be difficult? With a bit more effort you can be bloody impossible!' She used to call me Mary Contrary, said the sign was for me.


and reject anything that didn't feel good, knowing that even if I accepted it temporarily it was only as a part of this game I am playing which is exclusive to me.

This, this I like so much. It took me awhile to get back to this place- my experience was to have had my Sui Generis self met with savage violence and that did things to my Self that took quite a while to rebuild- which was in itself part of my own exclusive exploration *and* did derail things for awhile. I love the feel of being free to embrace the game, the Art, as an expression and exploration of my own Being, and how my Being interacts, dances and co-creates with everything else. I love that freedom.


I do not accept anyone else's truths and also I do not desire or care for anyone else's agreement with my understandings, otherwise I would be propagating my own agenda. It's very freeing to be happy to be oneself and to know that one is whole without confirmation from outside. Of course it's always fun to discuss things as it can help clarify your own feelings, but needing agreement from others is not a prerequisite for my self worth or completeness. So called truths, whether scientific, philosophical, moral or psychological are merely tools >

Every element of this paragraph resonates. So peaceful.


and chess pieces that we may use in this transitory 3D game of existence.

I'm slightly different here in two ways- I don't do incarnation as a 'game', for me it's more dancing, art, that I'm doing in the moment if that be in solitary or co-creation; I don't like chess, or the analogy of chess, because I find chess to be the art of war and that's not something I like to engage in- and I don't approach embodiment as transitory. I am simply sharing my experience here, not arguing yours. :)


If I felt compelled to define an absolute truth or to describe it in words I would say it is wholeness or Source. As to whether one "should" seek after it....it is an inevitability. We all seek wholeness whether we realize it or not. This is why we seek love as it makes us feel more whole because wholeness/Source is all about love. Just as a moth is drawn to a flame, we are inexorably drawn to Source.

Thank you for sharing your perspective, I appreciate it. There is a lot of beauty in your Art here. :)

[songsfortheotherkind]

I agree intent is key, purpose i guess as well though it seems it would be tied to intention.

purpose and intention can be tied together in complementary ways, although this is not always the case. Think of a hammer- the purpose of the hammer is to assist in driving objects, with force, into something else; the *intention* that one can have with a hammer in one's hand can be entirely different, ranging from benign (you need to jam something open and the hammer is the only tool you have to do that) to harmful (you're going to apply it forcefully to someone's head). This is why- at least for me- when it comes to interacting and exchanging with another Being I am called to look at my purpose and intent within the interaction and exchange, because words are subjective; one individual can experience a word as benign and another as malevolent, much unintended uproar can happen as a result. :)

I strive to hold in the space the balance between respecting the Sui Generis of all and recognising that some individuals seek dissonance naturally and will create or see it everywhere, so there's only so much I can do, so being clear on my purpose and intent in any interaction helps me reduce, as much as possible for me to do so, the fingernails-down-the-blackboard moments. :)


I'm ashamed to say I didn't give this my full attention and had made some assumptions about your first post, I like what you posted here it makes a lot of sense.

Shame isn't something I'm into; if I may, perhaps we can reframe this to 'aha, I have learned things about you through this interaction, our knowing of each other has increased and this is a good thing'. What we learned is up to us as inviduals. :D

*sudden wicked and slightly fangy grin* sometimes you really need to grokk what kind of Being you're interacting with, you see...

[NancyV]

I have no problem with other people's truths as I choose to let them be who they are and believe how they choose to believe (even if I may consider them to be temporarily ignorant, "evil", or insane!).

In the spirit of mutual exploration, may I respectfully share my experience in terms of the word 'choose' as it's been used here? For myself, I don't 'choose' to 'let' them be anything- for me, that's like saying 'I choose to let the sun come up this morning' or 'I choose for the sky to be blue' (without getting into the issue of color being subjectively experienced); my point is that, personally, I don't choose their Sui Generis at all, it simply is. Sometimes things may arise where I am given the opportunity to expand this perspective, such as when an individual's choices create temporary dissonance around me, and what I've discovered for myself is that in those moments it's not the Sui Generis perspective that is at issue, it's managing my own responses-particularly new subtleties or manifestations of a previously challenging frequency- that causes the distortion. I don't choose the actions and behaviour of the sun, the moon, the tides- while it might be possible to do so in some levels of frequency, that also requires of me a knowledge of the complexities of the myriads of ripple effects such choices create and currently I'm not playing in that realm- so I don't go there, it's not my concern, just as the Being of another isn't my 'concern'.

Again, I'm not discounting your comment or trying to be dismissive, I'm saying this with head nodding, a 'ah yes, I get that, this is how I do it' when two individuals with no conflict are sharing their experiences of something.

Good point. Since I meant the following…I should have said “I choose to let them be who they are and believe how they choose to believe without attempting to change them.” You’re correct that I am not choosing who they are or letting them be who they are. I am choosing to be content with who they are minus a need to argue for my perspectives in order to alter theirs.



NancyV: For myself....I see truth as a human concept which has little relevance the minute you leave your body and NO relevance as you attain higher vibrational states.

I am a Being that gets around the Multiverse by 'walking in' via previously arranged and mutual agreement. In some realms it's possible to just 'wrap' a form around the energy body. I don't do non-corporeal by choice. I *am* curious with the way you have connected two ideas here and I'd like to ask- you have linked 'leaving the body' and higher vibrational states in such a way that it can be taken you view higher vibrational states as being non-corporeal. Is this how you view things?
From my perspective and experience higher vibrational states can be either non corporeal or you can utilize a body/vehicle. Since you can create anything you want, that includes the manifestation of a body or container of some kind. In fact now that I think about it, even when I was in very high vibrational realms I always had some kind of energy that would hold my consciousness together and maintain a certain separation from other beings except for the ones I had already merged with where we were already one consciousness….me. As I expanded by merging with more separated consciousnesses and entered into higher vibrational frequencies my form was more like a pulsating, amorphous ball of light/energy. At that point the game seems to be more one of merging as the pull towards merging with the Source increases, so the game of having an interesting “body/vehicle” is not present, at least for me. Since it’s all energy, the form of the vehicle is inconsequential as it’s only purpose is to contain your soul. You become less contained by expanding out of your container and merging with more of your separated parts until becoming the Source. Then it starts all over again.



NancyV: I reached the point where I knew that existence was a game and I realized that no truths which are explained in language or mathematics so they can be grasped by the human mind will translate into the state of wholeness. I consider existence to be the state one enters upon separation from the Source, no matter what density one exists in.

*nodding* The thing that I found very interesting here (as in, in this global paradigm) is the interpretations that are added to the idea of separation of Source. For a species (using 'species' to describe the human form) that experiences being born from within the mother and the necessity of separation from that 'source' in order to express the individuality of the new Being, there is so much insistence on the pursuit of a 'return' to Source. I've explored the Source Field and observed the space that most Beings here seem to be referring to when they talk about 'Source'; I'm aware of it, I know its energetic signal, I've known Beings that have made the choice to 'return' there and personally I have sub-zero interest in doing so. I don't experience that concept the way other Beings here seem to.
I agree. I have no huge desire to go back to the Source in any conscious time frame although perhaps if one doesn’t remember being merged with the Source one would think that is a final goal. I found it to be an eternal cycle. We go from the Source into the Creation and back to the Source. We’re actually in both states concurrently but our consciousness of being the Source is blocked in varying degrees depending on how slow the vibrational frequency is where our consciousness is mostly inhabiting. In 3D the vibrational frequency is so slow for most of us that we can’t feel no-time/eternity and we don’t remember that we are always one with Source. I suppose it makes the game more fun. If you know you are always one with Source there is really nothing to return to and you can be content with your present consciousness which may feel separate most of the time.



NancyV: Even when I was very young I did not accept others truths.

*laughing* got myself permanently banned from high school science for that. And experienced a lot of hostility in other ways. It's nice to hear from someone else that had that perspective as a child.
I got suspended from high school twice; once for refusing to wear shoes and once for refusing to say the pledge of allegiance. My mother knew I was playing with them so when they called her in great frustration at my stubbornness she would always give some great reason for why I refused to obey. About the refusal to wear shoes she told them that I felt I had a stronger connection with the earth if I was barefooted. When they asked her about why I wouldn’t say the pledge of allegiance she said I believed that forcing people to say the pledge by rote removed all important meaning from it and it made me feel like a mindless robot. She enjoyed playing with them too. Finally I quit high school and left home when I was 16. I really didn’t suffer from any kind of rejection, I just plain thought school was fairly stupid, exceedingly boring and a huge waste of my time. I was much happier after leaving school and home and loved all my subsequent adventures.



NancyV: Sure, I have tried on different philosophies and theories but I always reached a point where they were never sufficient and did not contain wholeness. I found it much easier to be a contrarian

I like that! A 'contrarian'. *laughing* My nanna used to have a sign up in her kitchen that read 'Why be difficult? With a bit more effort you can be bloody impossible!' She used to call me Mary Contrary, said the sign was for me.


NancyV: and reject anything that didn't feel good, knowing that even if I accepted it temporarily it was only as a part of this game I am playing which is exclusive to me.

This, this I like so much. It took me awhile to get back to this place- my experience was to have had my Sui Generis self met with savage violence and that did things to my Self that took quite a while to rebuild- which was in itself part of my own exclusive exploration *and* did derail things for awhile. I love the feel of being free to embrace the game, the Art, as an expression and exploration of my own Being, and how my Being interacts, dances and co-creates with everything else. I love that freedom.
I also experienced a lot of violence after leaving home, but I benefited greatly from it. Even though I came close to dying a couple of times from violence I never held onto any pain or fear about it. I’ve had broken bones, been beat up, kidnapped a few times, raped, etc. But I sought out danger and got it in abundance! For some reason the violence never bothered me once it was over and I had physically recuperated. Probably the best violent thing that happened was when my jaw was broken and I had to have my teeth wired shut for 6 weeks! When you can’t talk much for 6 weeks it gives you a very different perspective and you are almost forced to learn the value of silence. :)



NancyV: I do not accept anyone else's truths and also I do not desire or care for anyone else's agreement with my understandings, otherwise I would be propagating my own agenda. It's very freeing to be happy to be oneself and to know that one is whole without confirmation from outside. Of course it's always fun to discuss things as it can help clarify your own feelings, but needing agreement from others is not a prerequisite for my self worth or completeness. So called truths, whether scientific, philosophical, moral or psychological are merely tools >

Every element of this paragraph resonates. So peaceful.


NancyV: and chess pieces that we may use in this transitory 3D game of existence.

I'm slightly different here in two ways- I don't do incarnation as a 'game', for me it's more dancing, art, that I'm doing in the moment if that be in solitary or co-creation; I don't like chess, or the analogy of chess, because I find chess to be the art of war and that's not something I like to engage in- and I don't approach embodiment as transitory. I am simply sharing my experience here, not arguing yours. :)
I also view this game as a dance, an art. But I consider war and chess to be art forms, dances AND battles. One of my favorite books is The Art of War by Sun Tsu and I’ve trained in martial arts, own guns and am rather aggressive. However, I do find that love is more powerful than mere aggression. But I would neither reject the aggressive side of myself nor the artistic side that utilizes love more and aggression less. Both have their place in my reality and I enjoy them equally here on earth.


NancyV: If I felt compelled to define an absolute truth or to describe it in words I would say it is wholeness or Source. As to whether one "should" seek after it....it is an inevitability. We all seek wholeness whether we realize it or not. This is why we seek love as it makes us feel more whole because wholeness/Source is all about love. Just as a moth is drawn to a flame, we are inexorably drawn to Source.

Thank you for sharing your perspective, I appreciate it. There is a lot of beauty in your Art here. :)
Thank YOU. The game (the dance) is good! :)

[songsfortheotherkind]

Oh, *so* much goodness here, so many delicious things first thing in the morning! What a wonderful word breakfast...


I am choosing to be content with who they are minus a need to argue for my perspectives in order to alter theirs.

Such a rare element, when one is in the presence of another who does not even hold the space for such alterations to be a possibility. What then has opportunity to arise is what happens to other individuals when such pressure is not present- I have observed individuals becoming agitated and belligerent when they encounter the absence of certain signals within my own. It took me decades to figure this out, that it was the *absence* of programmed and 'comforting' social cues that oftentimes triggered a distress response in the other individual.

I have been getting deeper 'downloads' lately about the subtle expressions of frequency in holding this space- contact with a future Self and other Beings being my main source of learning in this instance- and I have been experiencing yet again the limitations of language as it currently is in expressing the subtle energies and the experience of them, have been curious as to the creation/back engineering of more... *waves hands in slow circles, dropping into the space to find expression* ... expansive, greater finesse, conscious ways of communicating, at least until the ability to mindshare over distance becomes more present in the realms we're currently playing in. *grinning*

I actually feel a little blind in forums like these because in the physical I rely on the generally unconscious mind projections and energy signals that the individual I'm communicating with is constantly projecting- helpful in direct communication, agonising in large crowds or numbers if I haven't set my shields beforehand, which is why I don't live in cities. This experience of constant white noise around most individuals caused me to bury the ability as a young adult- of course, now I'm working on kickstarting it again which is like going back to the gym after several decades of inactivity... :P Communication between Beings of any 'kind' (choice of physical manifestation) is one of my passions, hence my interest in refining and expanding the palette of language- not all Beings exist in energy signals that can be 'translated' or even tolerated in certain physical forms, so having other tools available (at least to the Being I am) is useful. :)


NancyV: From my perspective and experience higher vibrational states can be either non corporeal or you can utilize a body/vehicle. Since you can create anything you want, that includes the manifestation of a body or container of some kind. In fact now that I think about it, even when I was in very high vibrational realms I always had some kind of energy that would hold my consciousness together and maintain a certain separation from other beings except for the ones I had already merged with where we were already one consciousness….me.

*waves hands in delight* Yes yes yes. :D I am familiar with these processes, although in the physical Otherrealms (not this one here on Gaia) I have experienced this merging of consciousness while maintaining the individual physical avatar; while I have also had the experience of 'stepping out' of the avatar and experiencing connection/expansion/greater Self/we/I in energetic bodySelfexpression I've found that I don't orient/seek out this way of Being or dance, they aren't what makes me Sing. I've been avatar 'jumping' for a really really long time now- part of my focus in this incarnation is to clear the blocks that exist in this physical form ('human') that I experience when using it; I know not all Beings experience the memory loss and distortion of signal that I experience with this vehicle *and* I know of other Beings who find it so painful and dissonant that they prefer to have limited ability to affect the physical realm and operate from behind the 'Veil'. I have found myself really struggling at times *and* I am still here, still holding the space for the particular vision I came in with which (most joyfully!) has been returning to me in greater clarity over this past year, physical challenges which have afforded me opportunity to clear dissonance. :)

I experience physical incarnation as being capable of holding all higher frequencies- not here currently due to the amount of 'befogging' , signal interference, proliferation of mind virus etc that is being aimed for the purpose of challenge/interruption- *and* I am experiencing the backengineering of future Self/Selves and other Beings as opening the doorways to such expression in this form. I am connected to Beings that never or rarely choose physical incarnation; for me, ultimately, I revel in the richness of the expression of experience. :)


As I expanded by merging with more separated consciousnesses and entered into higher vibrational frequencies my form was more like a pulsating, amorphous ball of light/energy. At that point the game seems to be more one of merging as the pull towards merging with the Source increases, so the game of having an interesting “body/vehicle” is not present, at least for me. Since it’s all energy, the form of the vehicle is inconsequential as it’s only purpose is to contain your soul. You become less contained by expanding out of your container and merging with more of your separated parts until becoming the Source. Then it starts all over again.

Yes, that's how I have observed it also. I have experimented with going into that space in the past, to see for myself, and pulled back out again because I simply did not resonate with where it was going; I had Other Places To Play In that called to me more strongly. It is so wonderful to be able to exchange these experiences *without* the subtle (and often not so subtle) vibrations of judgement projection that can come up around a discussion of physical avatars; while I know that the judgement projections in and of themselves are nothing more than another example of process, it *is* beautiful to experience an absence of such, like experiencing an absence of traffic noise while sitting in the forest. :) I am enjoying this communication greatly.


I agree. I have no huge desire to go back to the Source in any conscious time frame although perhaps if one doesn’t remember being merged with the Source one would think that is a final goal. I found it to be an eternal cycle. We go from the Source into the Creation and back to the Source.

Yes, if there is no recollection of the Source, or perhaps some perception of an impossible to reconcile dichotomy within the experience of Singularity/All, or even perhaps simply a genuine desire to be there, I can see also that some would consider it the desirable goal. It is a rare thing for me to meet another Being who does not share that view; even while what you speak of as the eternal cycle from Source to Creation to Source may be so, as the Being I am I'll still going to look for ways to bypass that. *laughing, pointing to pointy ears* I'm opting for Immortal, personally... in part because of the points you make here:


We’re actually in both states concurrently but our consciousness of being the Source is blocked in varying degrees depending on how slow the vibrational frequency is where our consciousness is mostly inhabiting. In 3D the vibrational frequency is so slow for most of us that we can’t feel no-time/eternity and we don’t remember that we are always one with Source. I suppose it makes the game more fun. If you know you are always one with Source there is really nothing to return to and you can be content with your present consciousness which may feel separate most of the time.

"If you know you are always one with Source there is really nothing to return to and you can be content with your present consciousness which may feel separate most of the time."

That is it exactly, for me as a Being; I am content and delighted to immerse my Self in the possibility here- that's one of the reasons it's so much fun reverse engineering from futuretime/present/notime, it's *all* possible here, depending on the degree of congruence/consciousness/integrity to one's intent and purpose there is in the moment. That's one of the posts I'm currently working on, my perspectives of those elements of Being; for this conversation, it's enough for me to indicate my resonance with this perspective and experience, to grin at you in agreement and to enjoy exploring what it is that I'm called to dance into within my Self and the co-creation that's possible for me. :D


I got suspended from high school twice; once for refusing to wear shoes and once for refusing to say the pledge of allegiance. My mother knew I was playing with them so when they called her in great frustration at my stubbornness she would always give some great reason for why I refused to obey. About the refusal to wear shoes she told them that I felt I had a stronger connection with the earth if I was barefooted. When they asked her about why I wouldn’t say the pledge of allegiance she said I believed that forcing people to say the pledge by rote removed all important meaning from it and it made me feel like a mindless robot. She enjoyed playing with them too. Finally I quit high school and left home when I was 16. I really didn’t suffer from any kind of rejection, I just plain thought school was fairly stupid, exceedingly boring and a huge waste of my time. I was much happier after leaving school and home and loved all my subsequent adventures.

I too thought school was boring, stupid and a waste of my time and I also was gone at 16. I grew up in a series of small minded country towns- the cult of normal- and I had already had a lot of experience with violence and rejection, so of course it kept coming up to be addressed... :P


NancyV: I also experienced a lot of violence after leaving home, but I benefited greatly from it. Even though I came close to dying a couple of times from violence I never held onto any pain or fear about it. I’ve had broken bones, been beat up, kidnapped a few times, raped, etc. But I sought out danger and got it in abundance! For some reason the violence never bothered me once it was over and I had physically recuperated. Probably the best violent thing that happened was when my jaw was broken and I had to have my teeth wired shut for 6 weeks! When you can’t talk much for 6 weeks it gives you a very different perspective and you are almost forced to learn the value of silence.

Ah, for me the primary violence was all at the hands of my mother, so I had it from birth; my face was rebuilt at 15 months because I got hit so hard my jaw was ripped off, my nose had been broken 17 times by age 14; I took some time out to repair old head injuries and other damage a few years ago. Rape and molestation made its appearance during that time too; years later as I worked through different elements of it all (and regained my pre-human memories) I could see how all the elements played out because of the frequencies present. One of the most hideous and insidious elements I saw playing out during that time was the constant insistence on and suggestion of victim, the idea being held out on an enticingly decorated platter, offering disempowerment through the illusion of 'understanding', 'compassion'; that one took me awhile to observe lurking in the shadows and it was interesting, this convoluted contortion of what 'is' into fertile ground for ways of Being that drain, in the most subtle way, powerful energies that swirl in both experience and response, while hungrily feeding on the distortions in the guise of 'assistance'. I'm not loading these observations energetically, there's no load or charge there, it's simply something that I personally got from the experiences, both during and after.


NancyV: I do not accept anyone else's truths and also I do not desire or care for anyone else's agreement with my understandings, otherwise I would be propagating my own agenda. It's very freeing to be happy to be oneself and to know that one is whole without confirmation from outside. Of course it's always fun to discuss things as it can help clarify your own feelings, but needing agreement from others is not a prerequisite for my self worth or completeness. So called truths, whether scientific, philosophical, moral or psychological are merely tools >

Every element of this paragraph resonates. So peaceful.


NancyV: I also view this game as a dance, an art. But I consider war and chess to be art forms, dances AND battles. One of my favorite books is The Art of War by Sun Tsu and I’ve trained in martial arts, own guns and am rather aggressive. However, I do find that love is more powerful than mere aggression. But I would neither reject the aggressive side of myself nor the artistic side that utilizes love more and aggression less. Both have their place in my reality and I enjoy them equally here on earth.

I have learned a degree of extreme peace with being able to respond aggressively and strongly, if that's what is necessary, to threat of real physical harm- before, deer in headlights, confusion, bewilderment and attempts to negotiate, communicate, build a bridge- now, I'll still attempt the last two until it's clear that something else is called for and I'm comfortable with whatever that needs to be. I have only recently had the space for learning martial arts and so I'm years behind you there *grins* - I like swords and throwing knives, I've been researching local ranges where I can go learn to shoot properly with hand guns because I want to be able to do it well, I'm into Wing Chun, tai chi (in both soft and hard forms), qi gong and aikido, have been working on getting my pulling arm stronger so that I can do some archery (and crossbows), I'd like to learn Krav Marga or something similar at some point. I am interested in none of this because I have some idea that I'm going to have to fight my way through a zombie apocalypse, I simply no longer have any load around other Being's issues with behaviour construed to be 'aggressive' or 'violent'. I like the idea of being able to do these things well! *laughing* I'm also a bellydancer, raver, technohead, love Latina dance forms, do contact improv and underwater dance, so mmm, *moves hands in circles* it's all part of the same dance, to me :) At the same time, I have no interest whatsoever in engaging with Beings who use violence and the harming of others as their primary expression- to me there is no equation with being skilled in martial or other arts and *seeking to do harm*, although I'm aware that for many there's no distinction between the two. *shrugs*


NancyV: This is why we seek love as it makes us feel more whole because wholeness/Source is all about love.

Love *makes sparkly movements with hands* so many expressions of it to explore, so many subjective nuances; just hearing someone say "I love you" sparks such curiousity in me to explore what they are expressing, 'what does that word mean to you? how are you using it? what are you expressing to me when you say it?', because I have learned that I can taste that word ( I have synesthesia if I allow it to run; words have taste and colour (and if I *really* let it run, physical sensation), colours have taste, texture and scent- I have learned to squish this because it gets too confusing/painful around non-synesthestes); I'm aware that the way love 'tastes' to me isn't going to be the way it tastes to another Being, just as I'm aware that most I come into contact with can't taste the words at all. Part of the joy of love- at least for me- is in discovering what love is to the other individual and having my own experience of it expanded, made richer, more luscious. <----- (this is one of my absolute favorite words, it has the most sublime taste and sensation, not to mention meaning...) :D


Thank YOU. The game (the dance) is good! :)

Oh, it absolutely is- I am so inspired and gleeful right now, it has been gorgeous to be in this space this morning... :becky: