Sex at Dawn, an Anthropological Review of Sex

[nearing]

We've been told that sexual monogamy comes naturally to our species. But how does this square with the facts: fewer and fewer couples marry, divorce is increasing and marriages are haunted by the twin spectres of adultery and flagging libido. What if our past is actually one of egalitarian promiscuity? What if monogamy doesn't come naturally to us and never has? And, if having an affair would make your marriage last, would you?

Christopher Ryan is an American psychologist who contends that much of what we've been told about our species is in fact untrue, particularly when it comes to sexuality. The bottom line, he says, is monogamy is unnatural: we're just not designed to have sex with the same person over a lifetime. He cheekily suggests that had Darwin had a better sex life our theories of human sexual relations would be completely different.

This session was chaired by the ABC's Robyn Williams and was part of the 2011 Festival of Dangerous Ideas at the Sydney Opera House.

Christopher Ryan is a psychologist and co -author of New York Times best-seller, "Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality". Christopher contributes to Psychology Today and The Huffington Post.

Robyn Williams is a science journalist and broadcaster, and the host of ABC Radio National's The Science show. In 1987 he was named a National Living Treasure. In 1993, Robyn was the first journalist elected as a Fellow Member of the Australian Academy of Science. He was a Visiting Fellow at Balliol College Oxford in 1995-96. Robyn has written more than 10 books, the latest being a novel.

k9ygq7F4TX4

My favorite part and also the art that has the biggest implications for mankind --

Scientifically proven: "When women rule a society, the men get laid more. Everybody's happier. Not one murder, not one infanticide, not one rape, no warfare. It's a very successful society."

Can I get an 'amen'?

[Solstyse]

Some people find sex with consenting adults, unnatural. They look for other outlets.
Some people find sobriety unnatural. They like drugs.
Others find the whole world unnatural. They like killing.
It's just there nature right?
Just because it's our nature doesn't make it right. :)

[Cilka]

Where are the women discussing this issue? That's typical. If men feel that it is unnatural to be monogamous then they should say that upfront before marriage. Or even better, men can start marrying each other and they can cheat on each other too, besides they would agree that having multiple partners while being in a relationship is perfectly fine. A match made in heaven.

[nearing]

The presentation really is VERY good and needs to be watched before we can discuss.

[music]

It is right for some, not for others. Worth noting first up is that the undermining of the fundamental human family unit is a necessary step toward the goal of successful establishment of the NWO. The state of one's libido and fidelity are reflections of one's current state of awareness, and of the health of one's psyche. Monogamy is not without precedent in the natural world, and regardless of the fact that primate physiology may favour promiscuity, we are a species that has evolved along a certain path. Our primacy amongst species on this planet is a result of the development of certain complex structures and behaviours, the net result of which is to increase the period of helplessness and dependency of the human child (and, to a lesser extent, mother). To prosper as a species, and to enjoy the leisure in which we may ponder the nature of reality and other such meta-physical notions that bear no direct relationship to immediate physical survival, we require an extended period of security for our young. Monogamy is a successful way of ensuring this, but not necessarily the only way. Community involvement in the shape of communal care of children, with parents caring for all children on a rota basis would also work. I would recommend approaching this debate as free from the polarisation of human sexuality as possible, and also wise and constructive would be to avoid any kind of gender bashing or stereotyping.

[cheez_2806]

this reminds me of the book "brave new world"

[NancyV]

I have to agree that monogamy is not completely natural for the human animal. Women seem to want monogamy more for the sake of security. Since they bear children and need to be taken care of and protected by their mate more so during pregnancy and when the child is young, it's natural to be more possessive during those years. Men have more of a natural instinct to spread their seed, which is a survival instinct meant to propagate the species.

Believing that monogamy is right and the correct way to behave is societal and religious brainwashing, in my opinion. I have observed that I went through many stages in my life, from having occasional lovers when young (and married), being monogamous when my children were young, having many lovers when single, to not having any interest in other men once I met and married my 4th husband whom I consider to be my soul mate.

He and I had similar experiences and behaviors. We both had many lovers and 3 previous marriages until we met each other 16 years ago. We occasionally jokingly argue about who had the most lovers. I say it's ME and he says it's HIM! Since we met no one else has interested us. It also may have to do with getting older and evolving to where it's natural to be less interested in sexual variety. But I also think that if you are extremely in love with someone you are not even slightly interested in anyone else, at least that's how it is for me.

To say that fidelity equates to a more evolved state doesn't seem correct to me. When you leave your body and merge with other beings, which is a thousand times more intense and exciting than physical sex, you are actually evolving more by becoming more of who you are. You can merge with unlimited numbers of other beings. I think human sexuality gives us a tiny glimpse of that state and the desire to couple with others may just be that natural urge to merge again... with separated parts of who we are ...to become more whole.

[Solstyse]

Believing that monogamy is right and the correct way to behave is societal and religious brainwashing, in my opinion.

Now you said it was your opinion, so let me see if I can sway you.

Gibbon monkeys mate for life, and as far as I know they don't have a religion.
Swans,Wolves,Albatrosses, Beavers,Pigeons,Lobsters just to name a few are monogamous when in a relationship and some even for life.
The lack of monogamy or "respect" for the other person in said relationship, is one of the biggest downfalls of marriage. And when marriages started breaking down so did society.
Just because monogamy might not be natural ( still up for discussion ) doesn't make it bad.

[Douglass]

I think it is an interesting subject. I find my self agreeing with both sides..... hmm

[161803398]

Still another person telling me what I'm supposed to be. Everyone is individual and I wish that someday these researchers would bug off and get that part straight.

In a bar in Ireland a woman sheep farmer said to me..you know they say all sheep look alike but they don't when you get to know them. Now there's someone who understands individual differences. Not only is every individual different from every other individual but every relationship is different from every other relationship. And here is this fool of man trying to propagate his egoistic notions about others. I had to put up with crap like this in the 70s.

I became very anti-intellectual at university because I did listen to what my professors had to say and it was a load of ****. I learned more that I can say from the self educated people of the world who are actually exposed to life and don't seek to impose themselves or their egoistic ideas on the gullible.

[write4change]

I finished reading the entire book about three weeks ago. If I had had access to this book when I was young I would be a different person in many ways. Maybe a much happier one. Nancy's take on this after quite a bit of experience gets my nod for how most people really are when totally comfortable being honest.

That being said part of the problem is there is a huge range of sexuality that most people are not allowed to consider in a rational way. There are people very happy being asexual, true hermaphrodites, as well as, once a year, once a month, once a week, and once a day kind of people. Being married to someone who does not fit you does not feel good.

I found this book so good, I copied some pages of it and have been sending it snal mail to people I really want to dialogue with.

In the book, it seriously addresses intense primate studies over the last 40 years. Gibbons are not that much like us. Our close cousins are chimpanzes, gorillas, and bonobos. There is much talk about DNA in the book. There is much current research still on the tribes of Oceania etc.

It is my hope that this book rocks off the walls of the world for the next year or so. A second in already on its way. By the way, the guy has a mate of many years who co wrote the book with him. She is a beautiful Indian woman. One of the things the book discusses is how the Western world has forced every other society to do its take on the way things ought to be and how deeply many resent it.

Those who have seen the so called sex temples of India, one of the statues used to provoke the Western ICK is a man mounted by a woman who is supported on each side by another woman who is also masturbating. In India this was once sacred--- not obscene. To do this well, in the right way for the right reasons, requires a kind of love and understanding the West has no concept and absolutely refused to consider that it has any validity. These were not orgies but ceremonial spiritual events that happened out of the context of every day life.

I have studied sex all my life and I am tantric master. I once wanted to do a thread on spiritual sexuality but was told by the mods that it was inappropriate and that we have children on this site. A year ago that infuriated me. Today, I agree. The childish behavior often displayed here by many a so called adult makes a subject of maturity requiring open minds and seeking new and different knowledge definitely inappropriate.

I refuse to get into whose ideas or beliefs of any kind are right or wrong but I do continually read to understand people's thinking and processes. The Darwin's delimenas and extensive notes that were not published are also considered in the book. On a whole religion is avoided. If religion is your basis for choosing your sexuality, then you have already decided how and are no longer interested in the why and therefore, you should not participate in this discussion which is not based on any religion but notes 1000s of years of ancient sexual practices.

If you can consider that everything we were taught about the pyramids was wrong, why not sexuality as a major culture factor is mostly wrong. Religion above all uses sex to repress thinking and instill guilt. The easiest way to raising your vibes and experiencing deep connection within and accessing your internal DNA is sex. In my life, I have found that to be an absolute fact. I don't preach it, instill it, or defend it. I just allow myself to know who I am deeply that way. I am so glad this book will give more people permission to try that path.

I cannot recommend this book more I am now going to watch the clip and maybe I will comment more.

[write4change]

Should it surprise me that no one had any comments to my comment?

After watching the clip, I was pleased to see that he is as funny in person as he is a writer. The book is an easy read while thouroughly documented the documentation is done in a way that is not distracting. I found some of his observations to be laugh out loud funny. And because I live in such a sexually repressed society some things he points out are so obvious that I never considered them.

The people who have the most to gain by this book being understood is women. Essentially, he says sex is not that big a deal certainly not something to let its presence or its abscense rule your life. On that level I agree. Sacred sex is something that is learned. It is something that you create a space for. It is something you work to come to really "know" about. Like everything else, the depth of study is based on individual taste.

My husband and I were married for 18 years. The sex was often very good but we never had great tantric sex. I tried to teach him and he tried to be open but maybe the 23 year difference---in the end he just wanted to get on with it already, The mind meld was so good that making an issue out of something that was not his style or interest would have been foolish. Using various oils and focusing on each of the physical senses and trying to consciously raise the kundalini thru the charkas was not what he was seeking. The fact he broke the bed boards in half on my antique french bed made him laugh for hours and that memory gave hims great pleasure even in the last hours of his life. All of this is love--accepting and giving and understanding of who we are. From the beginning of our marriage, he said it would be open and he was doing this as a gift for me because when we met he had been impotent for years and felt it could come back at any time. In the beginning, every erection was a miracle that had to be used right then. LOL The great gift he gave me was that he adored me and I never had that before, and thus, he never lost his desire for me and remained highly potent until cancer drugs got him. The great gift I gave him was that I was a good enough person that I never abused or used the power his love for me gave me in making him vulnerable. That allowed him to explore many things and continue to grow and become all he could be.

[ulli]

W
Should it surprise me that no one had any comments to my comment?

After watching the clip, I was pleased to see that he is as funny in person as he is a writer. The book is an easy read while thouroughly documented the documentation is done in a way that is not distracting. I found some of his observations to be laugh out loud funny. And because I live in such a sexually repressed society some things he points out are so obvious that I never considered them.

The people who have the most to gain by this book being understood is women. Essentially, he says sex is not that big a deal certainly not something to let its presence or its abscense rule your life. On that level I agree. Sacred sex is something that is learned. It is something that you create a space for. It is something you work to come to really "know" about. Like everything else, the depth of study is based on individual taste.

My husband and I were married for 18 years. The sex was often very good but we never had great tantric sex. I tried to teach him and he tried to be open but maybe the 23 year difference---in the end he just wanted to get on with it already, The mind meld was so good that making an issue out of something that was not his style or interest would have been foolish. Using various oils and focusing on each of the physical senses and trying to consciously raise the kundalini thru the charkas was not what he was seeking. The fact he broke the bed boards in half on my antique french bed made him laugh for hours and that memory gave hims great pleasure even in the last hours of his life. All of this is love--accepting and giving and understanding of who we are. From the beginning of our marriage, he said it would be open and he was doing this as a gift for me because when we met he had been impotent for years and felt it could come back at any time. In the beginning, every erection was a miracle that had to be used right then. LOL The great gift he gave me was that he adored me and I never had that before, and thus, he never lost his desire for me and remained highly potent until cancer drugs got him. The great gift I gave him was that I was a good enough person that I never abused or used the power his love for me gave me in making him vulnerable. That allowed him to explore many things and continue to grow and become all he could be.

Ingo Swann wrote a book called Psychic Sexuality...in which he partly explores the history of the suppression of sexuality in the Western world as well as his discoveries about chakras and the true nature of sex during his years of being a guinea pig psychic at the SRI, or Stanford Research Institute, where he worked as a remote viewer. It's is well worth googling him...one might even find his book.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Still another person telling me what I'm supposed to be. Everyone is individual and I wish that someday these researchers would bug off and get that part straight.

In a bar in Ireland a woman sheep farmer said to me..you know they say all sheep look alike but they don't when you get to know them. Now there's someone who understands individual differences. Not only is every individual different from every other individual but every relationship is different from every other relationship. And here is this fool of man trying to propagate his egoistic notions about others. I had to put up with crap like this in the 70s.

I became very anti-intellectual at university because I did listen to what my professors had to say and it was a load of ****. I learned more that I can say from the self educated people of the world who are actually exposed to life and don't seek to impose themselves or their egoistic ideas on the gullible.

Sounds like you're more into Sui Generis than generic. :D For me, anything that starts trying to lump me in together with *any* group, label, definition, parameters, at all, gets the swift boot. I'm *unique*, my relationships are unique, my children are happy and secure from the quality and scope of the care that they get, they're not threatened or undermined by my Pansexual and polyamorous way of doing things, it's just how we are. Others get to be how they are. The problems all start, from my observation, when one groups or individual starts asserting that their personal way is the RIGHT or proper way, or 'means' this or that. It's all absolutely subjective.

It's funny- mostly in an unfun way- how so many find this so difficult to embrace... I grew up in the country too so I 'see' differently from others, I see those subtle differences. It's one of the reasons I live in the country- I want my girls to learn that skill. :)

[songsfortheotherkind]

I finished reading the entire book about three weeks ago. If I had had access to this book when I was young I would be a different person in many ways. Maybe a much happier one. Nancy's take on this after quite a bit of experience gets my nod for how most people really are when totally comfortable being honest.

That being said part of the problem is there is a huge range of sexuality that most people are not allowed to consider in a rational way. There are people very happy being asexual, true hermaphrodites, as well as, once a year, once a month, once a week, and once a day kind of people. Being married to someone who does not fit you does not feel good.

I found this book so good, I copied some pages of it and have been sending it snal mail to people I really want to dialogue with.

In the book, it seriously addresses intense primate studies over the last 40 years. Gibbons are not that much like us. Our close cousins are chimpanzes, gorillas, and bonobos. There is much talk about DNA in the book. There is much current research still on the tribes of Oceania etc.

It is my hope that this book rocks off the walls of the world for the next year or so. A second in already on its way. By the way, the guy has a mate of many years who co wrote the book with him. She is a beautiful Indian woman. One of the things the book discusses is how the Western world has forced every other society to do its take on the way things ought to be and how deeply many resent it.

Those who have seen the so called sex temples of India, one of the statues used to provoke the Western ICK is a man mounted by a woman who is supported on each side by another woman who is also masturbating. In India this was once sacred--- not obscene. To do this well, in the right way for the right reasons, requires a kind of love and understanding the West has no concept and absolutely refused to consider that it has any validity. These were not orgies but ceremonial spiritual events that happened out of the context of every day life.

I have studied sex all my life and I am tantric master. I once wanted to do a thread on spiritual sexuality but was told by the mods that it was inappropriate and that we have children on this site. A year ago that infuriated me. Today, I agree. The childish behavior often displayed here by many a so called adult makes a subject of maturity requiring open minds and seeking new and different knowledge definitely inappropriate.

I refuse to get into whose ideas or beliefs of any kind are right or wrong but I do continually read to understand people's thinking and processes. The Darwin's delimenas and extensive notes that were not published are also considered in the book. On a whole religion is avoided. If religion is your basis for choosing your sexuality, then you have already decided how and are no longer interested in the why and therefore, you should not participate in this discussion which is not based on any religion but notes 1000s of years of ancient sexual practices.

If you can consider that everything we were taught about the pyramids was wrong, why not sexuality as a major culture factor is mostly wrong. Religion above all uses sex to repress thinking and instill guilt. The easiest way to raising your vibes and experiencing deep connection within and accessing your internal DNA is sex. In my life, I have found that to be an absolute fact. I don't preach it, instill it, or defend it. I just allow myself to know who I am deeply that way. I am so glad this book will give more people permission to try that path.

I cannot recommend this book more I am now going to watch the clip and maybe I will comment more.

I love this post. I absolutely agree with your take on the childish behaviour that does not seem able or willing to move from the old paradigm positions to embracing new ones that can hold far more evolved and embracive perspectives than are currently clung to by the majority. I fully understand the personal choice of each individual; where Elvis leaves the Building for me is when said individuals start applying intellectual or spiritual rationalisations to their choices for the apparent purpose of justification. Who actually really cares, except those that feel the need to either tell others who/how to be, for whatever reasons? Or reassure themselves about their own choices. Either way it's not where I like to hang out and I usually go other places where the exchanges aren't so heavy with dogma or energetic dodgy/load.

Thank you for posting this. I really enjoyed and resonated with it- I didn't see this earlier as I'm learning to be vewwy, vewwy careful what threads I go into here... *creepcreepstealthyninacreeping*

[Nathalie]

You know for some people having sex with another consenting adult is unnatural. They like kids.
Some people find sobriety unnatural. They like drugs.
Others find the whole world unnatural. They like killing.
It's just there nature right?
Just because it's our nature doesn't make it right. :)

You're describing pathological behaviour. It's interesting you should put sex in that category. Monogamy isn't right or wrong. It's whatever works for you. Personnally, I find that it's unnatural. In the end, it's what sex outside of marriage represents for you that matters. Does it mean loss, betrayal, etc... Like Christopher Ryan said, it's a difficult choice. And if ego stepped out of the way, it wouldn't even be an issue.

[9eagle9]

Basically most of us can look back on our life and know that we have not had the same sexual partner . Save for a few that married their highschool sweethearts and remained married for 60 years , but who knows if fidelity was present.

It used to be you had one person, you got married and that was it until one partner died and then perhpas you got married again.

Now people date a lot, but mostly to find the 'perfect' partner so while having lots of sexual relationships and lots of partners the end goal is marriage with that attached thought of fidelity. Marriage has been used as a means of enforcing fidelity which just something that can't be guaranteed or forced.

Not to say that its wrong that two people eventually settle down and monogamy just evoloves from a state of contendedness, maybe people find it just not an issue anymore of finding other sexual partners . Sex in itself has been generated into such huge idea and even ideal, where natural occuring monogomy is not based on sex but because sex has been put in its proper perspestive, not the thing any relationship gimbols about.

If Marriage and monogamy were naturallly occuring states with humans we wouldn't have these problems, they've been used to employ and enforce with. Monogamy is not a bad thing but its been used as weapon of enforcement, and even the legal system is seeing that.

Sex often destroys relationships more than the presence of infidelity. It's used a tool of control and a power struggle. People who adopt healthy attitudes about the act of sex may go either way, monogamy or have a number of sexual relationships without moral conditions of enforcment hanging over thier heads.

What is infidelity really? Having sex with another person? then most of us have violated fidelity well before we entered into a state of marriage or committed relationship.

Or is it breaking a contract? If a contract was not present in the first place it couldn't be broken. Fidelity is brought forward and levered on everything even if another partner isn't finding other sexual partners. Like looking at another men and women is somehow a violation of fidelity. This is very much about ownership issues. Ownership is the number one reason I have determined to stay out of relationships because all these conditions are being levered on me right from the start. Is staying out of the relationship arena healthy? I don't know, but having a avalanche of conditions piled on my head instead of just letting things evole naturally is not.

Monogamy may be present ONLY because a person cannot find other partners with healthy attitudes about sex and the established partner may be more comfortable because sex isn't deployed as a weapon.

So many variables here, and most conditions about sex and fidelity have been created society and not what occurs naturally.

I've seen people attempt to adopt free'er attitudes about sex, and went on a crusade of attempting to **** everyhing in sight to enforce that attitude and ended up miserable. they just adopted another attitude towards sex instead attempting to understand what sex really is.

Enforcing monogomy and enforcing ones sexual freedom can both be a land mines.

Having numerous sexual relationships doesn't automatically mean they are all being conducted at the same time either. When I have talked about this subject in the past suggesting that monogamy isn't natureal the first reaction I always get is someone snapping at me, "So you think we just **** everything, have 20 partners at the same time?!"

No that's not even the point. I know people who have not chosen monogamy and they aren't that sexually active. If one knows what I mean.

People who adopt healthy attitudes about sex may altogether become less interested in sex as well, because the ego attachment isn't there. Leaving room for sharing between partners something besides sex. I find the notion of comfort sex rather distasteful where one partner is using the other partner as a security blanket.

Marriage seems to be a financial and legal contract with a sacred agrement splashed in there for whatever reason. Marriage is used to enforce monogamy when it fails. Infidelity has even been taken away as grounds for divorce.

Family isn't destroyed by divorce, or even infidelity, or even sex, but the power struggle that occurs after a separation. Probably the same power struggle that ended the marriage in the first place. Six years after my divorce my ex is still attempting to punish me or my daughter, basically destroying his relationship with his daughter. The divorce dind't do that, the failed marriage didn't do that, infidelity didn't do that, he's doing it. A court order could force my daughter to see her father but its not going to force a healthy relationship, so the laws and social mores have been used to force conditions instead of allowing them to occur naturally. My ex not understanding this thinks that the court will force his daughter to like him. So I see this enforcement policy as a destructive force there.

Natural monogomy isn't a forced state it almost evolves without thought from a state of not having sexual matters enforced at all. And marriage doesn't have anything to do with it. Marriage has been used as a means of enforcing monogamy. Why so many don't get married , in case the monogamy that is already occuring shifts at some point in the future , it allows a certain freedom to evolve without being punished by legal fines paid to dissolve what is essentially just a legal contract that has nothing to do with sex, with fidelity or even love really. Which emphasizes that perhaps monogamy isn't natural to humans which doesn't mean its unnatural to have monogamy,...... its asking how did that evolve? Lack of enforcement and conditions may have allowed it to arrive at that state.

Even in conditions where monogomy isn't present and a free sex attitude is 'supposed' to be present I find conditions being enforaced. When men make sexual advances at me and I refuse them, I'm accused of wanting a monogamous relationship or that I am negotiating something and really the only thing I am saying is "I don't want to have sex with you" and that is viewed, by them, as wrong. That is enforcement. Free means I have a choice. Now sexual freedom has its own jail. This is an attempt at forcing something on the naturally occuring conditions of sexuality and trying to use sex as a means of control.

[crested-duck]

Different strokes for different folks. Call me old-fashioned, but I took the "till death do us part" seriously. Next month is our 20 yr anniv. I probably have a different outlook on sex because I got molested as a young teen and have a negative outlook on some types of sexuality. Two consenting adults is one thing, takeing advantage of a child is another,and it's wrong beyond words to describe in my view. It seemed as if the scumbag was trying to recruit and indoctrinate me into perversion. Maybe he was a victim of the catholic church just continueing the cycle of perversion.

[9eagle9]

I don't think monogamy should be dismissed anymore than sexual freedom should, I just explore the idea of where these ideas a are coming from and why. Not to be taken personally.

Sexual molestation imposed by father onto a child is physical symptom of much more prevalent emotional co-dependency where the father is emotoinally imposing on a young woman. My ex has never phsysically molested or abused his daughter but the emotional imposition is one that is bordering on pedophilia, he feeds on her. Narccisitic parenting. If he's not feeding on her to prop up his ego, or she refuses it he becomes hostile with her. This is more prevalent, and direct physical abuse often stems from that energetic pedophilia, but not always.

My daughter fortunately had intervention and began refusing his attitudes that she should be the surrogate wife. He even imposed fidelity on her--don't look or love or associate with your other parent. It's very ****ed up.

I'm sorry that you had that sort of experience Crested Duck and really it was a condition imposed on you and I dont' mean to make you think your old fashioned for 'death till us part' .

I'm just saying if you had not had a predator imposing on you in early childhood, your outlook on fidelity and monogamy might have been different.

None of this discussion I doubt is supposed to be a judgement about people's sex lives but more how society has contributed to our outlook on sex that perhaps was not presented thousands of years ago.

[crested-duck]

It was'nt my dad, it was best friends uncle, one of the community's Lions Club members/ boy scout/ cub scout leaders. My bf was victim too as well as alter boy victim at his church. I was raised protestant church. My dad was a mental/ emotional abuser who did'nt want to deal with the embarrassment when I asked for help. I pissed on his grave after his funeral then went after my abuser and destroyed his standing in the community permanently. If my sister had'nt been with me the day I hunted him down I would have killed him, but I took the higher road.

[Solstyse]

You know for some people having sex with another consenting adult is unnatural. They like kids.
Some people find sobriety unnatural. They like drugs.
Others find the whole world unnatural. They like killing.
It's just there nature right?
Just because it's our nature doesn't make it right. :)

You're describing pathological behaviour. It's interesting you should put sex in that category. Monogamy isn't right or wrong. It's whatever works for you. Personnally, I find that it's unnatural. In the end, it's what sex outside of marriage represents for you that matters. Does it mean loss, betrayal, etc... Like Christopher Ryan said, it's a difficult choice. And if ego stepped out of the way, it wouldn't even be an issue.

Oh I don't know I find sobriety incredible hard and have struggled with addiction for year, but I don't think I am mentally of physically diseased thank you very much :)
I have no problem with people wanting to sleep around, please do, but either don't get married, or marry someone else who is as open as you are.
Too me it is much more than actually act of sex, it is the time you spend with the other person away from your spouse. Moneys spent on the other person. Emotions being split between multiple person. I am a guy and we have enough problems paying proper attention too one person.

[EnergyGardener]

My favorite part and also the art that has the biggest implications for mankind --

Scientifically proven: "When women rule a society, the men get laid more. Everybody's happier. Not one murder, not one infanticide, not one rape, no warfare. It's a very successful society."

Can I get an 'amen'?

Nearing.

AMEN.

This might stem from the theory that through "survival of the fittest," the winners of the battle also reap the spoils, so that the less fit men (and their women and families) must lose as in, "winner-take-all." We see that going on right now with the efforts of CABAL to leave the rest of the world in ruins... This could be considered as a male dominated CABAL, except to note that one of the primary leadership positions of the CABAL is the royal family, therefore exceptions to this rule must be acknowledged to be Queen Mother and the Queen: Perhaps reptoids are male oriented, incapable of empathy, compassion, and love, and must not to be allowed to exist in any gender? Have they not have failed to demonstrate and provide leadership during their thousands of years of leadership on Earth: To prove otherwise?

I remain suspicious of any humans that contends otherwise. This is as much about fidelity (to all humanity) as it is to any other issue, and therefore for the safety of humanity (and I suspect all other species) going forward, trumps forgiveness and compassion, to the extent of remaining in our realm. Is 1000 years long enough? Perhaps that is not for humans to decide?

:focus:

Perhaps in most woman oriented / dominated societies, women have no need, therefore no intention to win over others (again, excepting the example of the royals), but want all women to win, all children to be fed, all husbands (significant other, etc.) to be maintained, pleased and satisfied / laid. Perhaps in these societies, there is no insecurity of women and panic that increases with age. This disastrous problem we find ourselves is exemplified perfectly (and I suspect orchestrated for no good purpose excepting profits by the very few) by the all-too familiar reality shows (real housewives, etc.), that demoralizes humanity and sets the worst possible examples for young girls and boys.

To the core subject of monogamy, fidelity to a contract / commitment, marriage, a business arrangement or a friendship: I believe fidelity to any commitment is one of major tests we face as human beings. Who among us passes all or our human tests?

I suspect that our success at fidelity to relationships in each lifetime, in graduating importance relative to those impacted, remains the key factor for those that choose to join us in all of our group incarnations. Therefore, each decision to betray or discard a previous commitment (for short or long-term personal gain), may have a negative impact not only upon those we choose to betray, but to ourselves in ways we may not fully appreciate in this limited dimension.

However, to move forward, it is of far greater importance to accomplish forgiveness to our selves and others, releasing negative karma, through Christ our Higher Self, and/or our most effective llama, sage or spiritual leader.

:wizard:

[Carmen]

Yep, I'd rather have a dog!!

[Earth Angel]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------










Marriage or Relationship
If you want someone who will eat whatever you put in front of him and never say it's not quite as good as his mother's

Then adopt a dog.


If you want someone always willing to go out, at any hour,
For as long and wherever you want ...

Then adopt a dog.

If you want someone who will never touch the remote, doesn't care
About football, and can sit next to you as you watch romantic movies

..then adopt a dog.

If you want someone who is content to get on your bed just to
Warm your feet and whom you can push off if he snores

..then adopt a dog !

If you want someone who never criticizes what you do, doesn't care if you are pretty or ugly, fat or thin, young or old, who acts as if every word you say is especially worthy of listening to, and loves
You unconditionally, perpetually ..

..then adopt a dog.

BUT, on the other hand, if you want someone who will never come when you call, ignores you totally when you come home, leaves hair
All over the place, walks all over you, runs around all night and only comes home to eat and sleep, and acts as if your entire existence is solely to ensure his happiness...


.

..

.

.

.

.
.
.
.
.
..then adopt a cat!

[Kindred]

IMO... this whole 'debate' Should FOCUS on the Respect that Should occur between consenting adults... Not one's ego-centric value of monogamy or promiscuity. The most pressing problem with this issue (and most others, on this 'level') is when Free Will is interfered with. If the individuals involved in a relationship have a Complete and True dialog with a Full understanding about their expectations, hopes and desires about a relationship, then this entire issue becomes 'moot'. It is when the Ego deceives or misconstrues the aspirations or intentions of another's involvement in said relationship, that problems arise.

Imagine if one could read another's mind! Ultimately, This is the path of True Understanding. I look forward to that time.

In Unity and Peace - and Understanding

[nearing]

Believing that monogamy is right and the correct way to behave is societal and religious brainwashing, in my opinion.

Now you said it was your opinion, so let me see if I can sway you.

Gibbon monkeys mate for life, and as far as I know they don't have a religion.
Swans,Wolves,Albatrosses, Beavers,Pigeons,Lobsters just to name a few are monogamous when in a relationship and some even for life.
The lack of monogamy or "respect" for the other person in said relationship, is one of the biggest downfalls of marriage. And when marriages started breaking down so did society.
Just because monogamy might not be natural ( still up for discussion ) doesn't make it bad.

Solstyse, most of what you said in your post is addressed in the video. You really should watch it, I think you will quite enjoy it judging from your signature line.

[nearing]

I finished reading the entire book about three weeks ago. If I had had access to this book when I was young I would be a different person in many ways. Maybe a much happier one. Nancy's take on this after quite a bit of experience gets my nod for how most people really are when totally comfortable being honest.

That being said part of the problem is there is a huge range of sexuality that most people are not allowed to consider in a rational way. There are people very happy being asexual, true hermaphrodites, as well as, once a year, once a month, once a week, and once a day kind of people. Being married to someone who does not fit you does not feel good.

I found this book so good, I copied some pages of it and have been sending it snal mail to people I really want to dialogue with.

In the book, it seriously addresses intense primate studies over the last 40 years. Gibbons are not that much like us. Our close cousins are chimpanzes, gorillas, and bonobos. There is much talk about DNA in the book. There is much current research still on the tribes of Oceania etc.

It is my hope that this book rocks off the walls of the world for the next year or so. A second in already on its way. By the way, the guy has a mate of many years who co wrote the book with him. She is a beautiful Indian woman. One of the things the book discusses is how the Western world has forced every other society to do its take on the way things ought to be and how deeply many resent it.

Those who have seen the so called sex temples of India, one of the statues used to provoke the Western ICK is a man mounted by a woman who is supported on each side by another woman who is also masturbating. In India this was once sacred--- not obscene. To do this well, in the right way for the right reasons, requires a kind of love and understanding the West has no concept and absolutely refused to consider that it has any validity. These were not orgies but ceremonial spiritual events that happened out of the context of every day life.

I have studied sex all my life and I am tantric master. I once wanted to do a thread on spiritual sexuality but was told by the mods that it was inappropriate and that we have children on this site. A year ago that infuriated me. Today, I agree. The childish behavior often displayed here by many a so called adult makes a subject of maturity requiring open minds and seeking new and different knowledge definitely inappropriate.

I refuse to get into whose ideas or beliefs of any kind are right or wrong but I do continually read to understand people's thinking and processes. The Darwin's delimenas and extensive notes that were not published are also considered in the book. On a whole religion is avoided. If religion is your basis for choosing your sexuality, then you have already decided how and are no longer interested in the why and therefore, you should not participate in this discussion which is not based on any religion but notes 1000s of years of ancient sexual practices.

If you can consider that everything we were taught about the pyramids was wrong, why not sexuality as a major culture factor is mostly wrong. Religion above all uses sex to repress thinking and instill guilt. The easiest way to raising your vibes and experiencing deep connection within and accessing your internal DNA is sex. In my life, I have found that to be an absolute fact. I don't preach it, instill it, or defend it. I just allow myself to know who I am deeply that way. I am so glad this book will give more people permission to try that path.

I cannot recommend this book more I am now going to watch the clip and maybe I will comment more.

Thanks so much for your post! I was so impressed with the video that I ordered both of his books. I love to get a fresh perspective on this ancient of topics.

As a friend of mine said after watching: "Bonobos are my favourite primate now. They're a peaceful matriarchal, non-monogamous society. Human rights for Bonobos!! Bonobo rights for humans. The ending of jealousy and sexual violence!"

And I say, we could learn a LOT from Bonobo society. We have acted like chips for FAR too long!

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Still another person telling me what I'm supposed to be. Everyone is individual and I wish that someday these researchers would bug off and get that part straight.

In a bar in Ireland a woman sheep farmer said to me..you know they say all sheep look alike but they don't when you get to know them. Now there's someone who understands individual differences. Not only is every individual different from every other individual but every relationship is different from every other relationship. And here is this fool of man trying to propagate his egoistic notions about others. I had to put up with crap like this in the 70s.

I became very anti-intellectual at university because I did listen to what my professors had to say and it was a load of ****. I learned more that I can say from the self educated people of the world who are actually exposed to life and don't seek to impose themselves or their egoistic ideas on the gullible.

Sounds like you're more into Sui Generis than generic. :D For me, anything that starts trying to lump me in together with *any* group, label, definition, parameters, at all, gets the swift boot. I'm *unique*, my relationships are unique, my children are happy and secure from the quality and scope of the care that they get, they're not threatened or undermined by my Pansexual and polyamorous way of doing things, it's just how we are. Others get to be how they are. The problems all start, from my observation, when one groups or individual starts asserting that their personal way is the RIGHT or proper way, or 'means' this or that. It's all absolutely subjective.

It's funny- mostly in an unfun way- how so many find this so difficult to embrace... I grew up in the country too so I 'see' differently from others, I see those subtle differences. It's one of the reasons I live in the country- I want my girls to learn that skill. :)

Alas, we are individuals in a SOCIETY. Can't get away from that fact. Please watch the video and see how our closest relatives, the Bonobos live and tell me we wouldn't do well to take notes.

[nearing]

Different strokes for different folks. Call me old-fashioned, but I took the "till death do us part" seriously. Next month is our 20 yr anniv. I probably have a different outlook on sex because I got molested as a young teen and have a negative outlook on some types of sexuality. Two consenting adults is one thing, takeing advantage of a child is another,and it's wrong beyond words to describe in my view. It seemed as if the scumbag was trying to recruit and indoctrinate me into perversion. Maybe he was a victim of the catholic church just continueing the cycle of perversion.

More power to you! Keep in mind that the presentation speaks to biology and societal cohesiveness and how we can learn form our closest cousins to live in perfect harmony without rape, murder, warfare. We humans choose to be monogamous for other higher-brained reasons. What Dr Ryan is pros posing is that we can learn from the Bonobos and perhaps combine both ways of living so that harmony can be the norm.

[nearing]

My favorite part and also the art that has the biggest implications for mankind --

Scientifically proven: "When women rule a society, the men get laid more. Everybody's happier. Not one murder, not one infanticide, not one rape, no warfare. It's a very successful society."

Can I get an 'amen'?

Nearing.

AMEN.

This might stem from the theory that through "survival of the fittest," the winners of the battle also reap the spoils, so that the less fit men (and their women and families) must lose as in, "winner-take-all." We see that going on right now with the efforts of CABAL to leave the rest of the world in ruins... This could be considered as a male dominated CABAL, except to note that one of the primary leadership positions of the CABAL is the royal family, therefore exceptions to this rule must be acknowledged to be Queen Mother and the Queen: Perhaps reptoids are male oriented, incapable of empathy, compassion, and love, and must not to be allowed to exist in any gender? Have they not have failed to demonstrate and provide leadership during their thousands of years of leadership on Earth: To prove otherwise?

I remain suspicious of any humans that contends otherwise. This is as much about fidelity (to all humanity) as it is to any other issue, and therefore for the safety of humanity (and I suspect all other species) going forward, trumps forgiveness and compassion, to the extent of remaining in our realm. Is 1000 years long enough? Perhaps that is not for humans to decide?

:focus:

Perhaps in most woman oriented / dominated societies, women have no need, therefore no intention to win over others (again, excepting the example of the royals), but want all women to win, all children to be fed, all husbands (significant other, etc.) to be maintained, pleased and satisfied / laid. Perhaps in these societies, there is no insecurity of women and panic that increases with age. This disastrous problem we find ourselves is exemplified perfectly (and I suspect orchestrated for no good purpose excepting profits by the very few) by the all-too familiar reality shows (real housewives, etc.), that demoralizes humanity and sets the worst possible examples for young girls and boys.

To the core subject of monogamy, fidelity to a contract / commitment, marriage, a business arrangement or a friendship: I believe fidelity to any commitment is one of major tests we face as human beings. Who among us passes all or our human tests?

I suspect that our success at fidelity to relationships in each lifetime, in graduating importance relative to those impacted, remains the key factor for those that choose to join us in all of our group incarnations. Therefore, each decision to betray or discard a previous commitment (for short or long-term personal gain), may have a negative impact not only upon those we choose to betray, but to ourselves in ways we may not fully appreciate in this limited dimension.

However, to move forward, it is of far greater importance to accomplish forgiveness to our selves and others, releasing negative karma, through Christ our Higher Self, and/or our most effective llama, sage or spiritual leader.

:wizard:

Yes, tests we place on ourselves. Funny how these successful, peaceful, harmonious societies place no such test on themselves. Have we missed the boat?

[risveglio]

“A man is only as faithful as his options” - Chris Rock

[write4change]

I have now read all of the above in the thread and will gradually address some points made but I decided I would talk about one study in the book that surprises many people.

During WWII in England, the first people sent to the war effort was American pilots to stop the air war that Germany was winning. The initial pilot losses were staggering. The morale was incredibly low. In order to help the men get thru this and give them something to visually fight for--these were the wives that were allowed to go overseas. The feeling was the women would also support each other and particularly the wounded and widowed.

Thus, this was the first group that had a lot of psychological support and also military chaplains available at all hours of the day and night. Thus, the documentation. While the women did bring solace to their men--they also brought reality. These men were highly bonded to each other. What evolved was group sharing of sex between friends. It was open in the way that people knew--not group orgies. It was initiated by the men. It was done because they had strong feelings about their odds of survival and they wanted their wives to have the comfort and actual knowledge that they needed to go on with their lives and care for all the children. That was the big deal--this band of men felt that their children would fair better if they were part of a band who had all pledged to care for all the families in all the ways. Sharing their wives reinforced their commitments to one another. This was a spontaneous happening. The army was quite surprised and allowed it to evolve as long as the missions were accomplished. Evidence indicated that everyone was happier, stabler, and stronger with intense group relations than not. Since death was faced daily, the ideas of possessing anything were no longer important and caring in the now became everything. By the time, the upper eschelons knew about this group cohesion could make them back off period.

This should be food for thought about all rules and regulations of proper sexual behavior.

[jackovesk]

Post removed...

[nearing]

I have now read all of the above in the thread and will gradually address some points made but I decided I would talk about one study in the book that surprises many people.

During WWII in England, the first people sent to the war effort was American pilots to stop the air war that Germany was winning. The initial pilot losses were staggering. The morale was incredibly low. In order to help the men get thru this and give them something to visually fight for--these were the wives that were allowed to go overseas. The feeling was the women would also support each other and particularly the wounded and widowed.

Thus, this was the first group that had a lot of psychological support and also military chaplains available at all hours of the day and night. Thus, the documentation. While the women did bring solace to their men--they also brought reality. These men were highly bonded to each other. What evolved was group sharing of sex between friends. It was open in the way that people knew--not group orgies. It was initiated by the men. It was done because they had strong feelings about their odds of survival and they wanted their wives to have the comfort and actual knowledge that they needed to go on with their lives and care for all the children. That was the big deal--this band of men felt that their children would fair better if they were part of a band who had all pledged to care for all the families in all the ways. Sharing their wives reinforced their commitments to one another. This was a spontaneous happening. The army was quite surprised and allowed it to evolve as long as the missions were accomplished. Evidence indicated that everyone was happier, stabler, and stronger with intense group relations than not. Since death was faced daily, the ideas of possessing anything were no longer important and caring in the now became everything. By the time, the upper eschelons knew about this group cohesion could make them back off period.

This should be food for thought about all rules and regulations of proper sexual behavior.

Wow, what a story. I had no idea this happened. I cannot wait to read this book!

[nearing]

The presentation really is VERY good and needs to be watched before we can discuss.

To be honest, I really could'nt be bothered...

This belongs in the Off-Topic section where the majority of our Guest's don't get to see it...:yes4:

I mean who gives a .....?

It does'nt matter what you believe or what I believe or what someone else believes...:nono:

What a complete and utter waste of a 'Thread'...!

Oh, hang on a second...

I forgot to ask what the PTW/NWO/ILUMINATI, etc, etc, etc, believes...:confused:

Huh? This is a presentation based on book of research into human sexuality. It's anthropology for practical purposes.

I give a ..... and I am sure that many others do to. And why should this be hidden from guests? Honestly, Jack, I don't see where you are coming from. Don't bother with it if you don't want to, but don't pretend to know what others should be bothered with.

[write4change]

The essence of the book is in the clip and I think everyone should view it before stating their opinions of the way things are or should be. If we get a mature discussion going people may feel safe enough to share in a different way. After all nothing is more bonding than sex and sex stories and jokes around the human campfire of ideas can be life at its best. This site needs a change of direction and this thread has the potential of being a new beginning. And I am glad it was started.

Modwiz, I know you well enough to respect your caution but I also know if any one has any good provacative jokes it is you. LOL

[EnergyGardener]

Yes, tests we place on ourselves. Funny how these successful, peaceful, harmonious societies place no such test on themselves. Have we missed the boat?

There are many boats.

They have in fact placed tests upon themselves; they just had much more time for their role/s. That time, as is the journey itself, not yet over, but I suspect very close. The best part, at least for us, is yet to come. And, threads like this do make it much more fun, educational and thought provoking...

Thank you,

EnergyGardener

[nearing]

The essence of the book is in the clip and I think everyone should view it before stating their opinions of the way things are or should be. If we get a mature discussion going people may feel safe enough to share in a different way. After all nothing is more bonding than sex and sex stories and jokes around the human campfire of ideas can be life at its best. This site needs a change of direction and this thread has the potential of being a new beginning. And I am glad it was started.

Modwiz, I know you well enough to respect your caution but I also know if any one has any good provacative jokes it is you. LOL

Perhaps this is my fault. Knowing how people tend to read only a headline and start commenting before knowing what he OP is really about, I should not have used the video title as the headline. The presentation and the books are based on serious research of a sometimes funny and usually touchy subject.

Nevertheless, are we not all adults who can either have a discussion on the topic (not the headline) or move on if we don't want to discuss?

[write4change]

I am not great at anything technical. Is it possible to change the title of the thread? I think if you ask nice Paul can do it if we can't. Maybe Sex at Dawn, an Anthropological Review of Sex. Or you may have a better idea. I will be devoted to this thread but I have to admit that I would never had started it based on the behavior I have witnessed lately. Your optimism for the site and its ability to move up a level inspries me to try to help.

I am quite surprised at Jack, I read his stuff alot and he is one with the level head on his shoulders most of the time. Maybe like Keannu in the Matrix, he likes sex with no emotion and women who are not vocal about it. LOL

[DoubleHelix]

Hi nearing,

Not to drag the topic of course, but I felt I should say something to your comments regarding Man having relation to the primate family.. thus following the notion of Darwin's Theory of Evolution.

The theory in question is highly erroneous and crumbles under in-depth scrutiny.

Another thread perhaps.

good day.
-DH.

[nearing]

Hi nearing,

Not to drag the topic of course, but I felt I should say something to your comments regarding Man having relation to the primate family.. thus following the notion of Darwin's Theory of Evolution.

The theory in question is highly erroneous and crumbles under in-depth scrutiny.

Another thread perhaps.

good day.
-DH.

I'd love for you to expound on that DH. As long as it has some pertinence to the topic of this thread, you can go there with it, if you'd like. It's all good with me.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I am not great at anything technical. Is it possible to change the title of the thread? I think if you ask nice Paul can do it if we can't. Maybe Sex at Dawn, an Anthropological Review of Sex. Or you may have a better idea. I will be devoted to this thread but I have to admit that I would never had started it based on the behavior I have witnessed lately. Your optimism for the site and its ability to move up a level inspries me to try to help.

I am quite surprised at Jack, I read his stuff alot and he is one with the level head on his shoulders most of the time. Maybe like Keannu in the Matrix, he likes sex with no emotion and women who are not vocal about it. LOL

Perhaps Paul would do that for me. I'll PM him about it. Thanks.

[write4change]

What is interesting is that according to DNA we are less than 4 % different from either chimpanzees or bonobos. It is also interesting that it man and women are also not quite 4% different DNA from each other. So there may be some truth to we are a different species almost. Another thing we know is that when men listen only 4 parts of their brains lights up in a MRI and when women listen 8 parts of their brain lights up. Does make communication more difficult. Maybe that is why most congressional panels lately want no women testifying.

[Solstyse]

Believing that monogamy is right and the correct way to behave is societal and religious brainwashing, in my opinion.

Now you said it was your opinion, so let me see if I can sway you.

Gibbon monkeys mate for life, and as far as I know they don't have a religion.
Swans,Wolves,Albatrosses, Beavers,Pigeons,Lobsters just to name a few are monogamous when in a relationship and some even for life.
The lack of monogamy or "respect" for the other person in said relationship, is one of the biggest downfalls of marriage. And when marriages started breaking down so did society.
Just because monogamy might not be natural ( still up for discussion ) doesn't make it bad.

Solstyse, most of what you said in your post is addressed in the video. You really should watch it, I think you will quite enjoy it judging from your signature line.

I am on vacation with my daughter right now, so don't have the time to dedicate too watch the video. When I get home I will watch the whole thing, then jump back in the conversation.

Thank you nearing :)

[nearing]

What is interesting is that according to DNA we are less than 4 % different from either chimpanzees or bonobos. It is also interesting that it man and women are also not quite 4% different DNA from each other. So there may be some truth to we are a different species almost. Another thing we know is that when men listen only 4 parts of their brains lights up in a MRI and when women listen 8 parts of their brain lights up. Does make communication more difficult. Maybe that is why most congressional panels lately want no women testifying.

Haha! Indeed, having women on those panels could really put a damper on the objective, eh?

[ThePythonicCow]

We've been told that sexual monogamy comes naturally to our species. But how does this square with the facts: fewer and fewer couples marry, divorce is increasing and marriages are haunted by the twin spectres of adultery and flagging libido. What if our past is actually one of egalitarian promiscuity? What if monogamy doesn't come naturally to us and never has? And, if having an affair would make your marriage last, would you?
At the request of the original poster (nearing) I have changed the title of this thread



From:

If You Want Fidelity, Get a Dog: Humans are not meant to be Monogamous
To:

Sex at Dawn, an Anthropological Review of Sex

I suspect some of the posts above, which were feeding more off the original thread title than off the other substance of the opening post, will make less sense now :).

[Libra]

Well said.

[write4change]

Well nearing I would like to thank you for this opportunity and it is obvious that the subject of sex unless really dirty is too difficult for public discussion. What is great is that the book itself is flying off the shelves of Barnes and Noble thru word of mouth. While short, it was fun. Again my appreciation.

[nearing]

Well nearing I would like to thank you for this opportunity and it is obvious that the subject of sex unless really dirty is too difficult for public discussion. What is great is that the book itself is flying off the shelves of Barnes and Noble thru word of mouth. While short, it was fun. Again my appreciation.

I think the lack of discussion here isn't so much about the subject (although it plays a part as people are squeamish, lol) but today is St. Paddy's day and a Saturday and the weather is fine. I just got back myself form a 2 hour bike ride and will be going out again. If we can keep it going a little at a time, we may hear from more people tomorrow or when weather gets nasty.

I anxiously await my copy of both books. I have just recently gone into a field of medicine that heavily pertains to this subject so I am interested for myself but also for my patients. Who knows what I may glean.

[write4change]

Okay, I follow your lead. Forgot about St. Patrick's. I am in LA and it is raining since 8 AM. I did some sexual surrogate work as a nurse with Viet Nam vets that were quads and paras and that was before the concept was invented or maybe how it came about. I have known since then how sensitive the public is. To many men that I told after dating them a while -- it was still prostitution -- being paid for sex no matter what the problem. For me to share some of those insights I would have to feel there was a definite respect for the concept.

We were working with neurologists, as well as, psychiatrists and there were no MRIs in those days and they really had no clue about the connectedness of sex to the brain etc. And most of the men fit a pattern of not just injury but having to redefine everything. For the first time in their lives, these men faced having sex when they were not in control and that turned out to be the biggest issue.

One of the reasons I loved my husband is that when I told him he was intriqued rather than put off.

[nearing]

Okay, I follow your lead. Forgot about St. Patrick's. I am in LA and it is raining since 8 AM. I did some sexual surrogate work as a nurse with Viet Nam vets that were quads and paras and that was before the concept was invented or maybe how it came about. I have known since then how sensitive the public is. To many men that I told after dating them a while -- it was still prostitution -- being paid for sex no matter what the problem. For me to share some of those insights I would have to feel there was a definite respect for the concept.

We were working with neurologists, as well as, psychiatrists and there were no MRIs in those days and they really had no clue about the connectedness of sex to the brain etc. And most of the men fit a pattern of not just injury but having to redefine everything. For the first time in their lives, these men faced having sex when they were not in control and that turned out to be the biggest issue.

One of the reasons I loved my husband is that when I told him he was intriqued rather than put off.

That's a man who is secure in his own sexuality! Very nice.

[WhiteFeather]

AMEN Nearing, Just look At All Wildlife Species On Our Planet. We are directly connected to them right, but yet we choose/have one mate due to the part of the religious structures and or belief systems. Most Of Our Wildlife have an infinite amount of mates, and it seems to work out just fine for them. If we could live this way like our Wildlife family, I couldn't imagine what the population would be right about now! I'm willing to give it a shot LOL. And It Would be interesting to say the least. ; )

[write4change]

Just like the Native Americans had very little mental illness. They did not have a ton of children either. I think we killed off their own knowledge of medicinal herbs etc with disease and then war. We know entire tribes were wriped out and much of shamanistic knowledge was passed down orally by long internships. Many of my tribal studies show that these people did not have most of their sex at night in the dark but out in their environment and as part of their lives that happened spontaneously. There are some of their writings indicating that the white man did not display his body because of his shame of it. It smelled bad, had no scars that spoke of their learning, and showed the flabby weakness of their white flesh.

Then the fact they immediately took one of their sacred exchanges -- smoking the peace pipe and made it an every day occurrence and an addiction showed the early Native Americans, whites had no respect for life. We now have a major documentary about a white priest and researcher who explored the Amazon by boat and wrote about all the cities etc. Two centuries later when people finally got around to the Darwinian process of research there was no evidence of cities so they said he made it up. Today with instruments, we can see the ruins in the earth of what he saw. Thus, after his trip millions of people died from simply breathing his air. And we wonder why the Amazon tribes want merely to be left alone with what has sustained them for thousands of years.

[modwiz]

What is interesting is that according to DNA we are less than 4 % different from either chimpanzees or bonobos. It is also interesting that it man and women are also not quite 4% different DNA from each other. So there may be some truth to we are a different species almost. Another thing we know is that when men listen only 4 parts of their brains lights up in a MRI and when women listen 8 parts of their brain lights up. Does make communication more difficult. Maybe that is why most congressional panels lately want no women testifying.

The other four parts of the brain that light up in women seem to happen in their imagination and or emotional areas. I will certainly agree there is more activity in the brain going on with most women in conversation. I am unconvinced of the positive implications of it, however.

The phrase, "only 4 parts" is made to sound like a limitation, but I would disagree. My definition of multitasking is,' doing more than one thing at a time less than optimally'.

[nearing]

What is interesting is that according to DNA we are less than 4 % different from either chimpanzees or bonobos. It is also interesting that it man and women are also not quite 4% different DNA from each other. So there may be some truth to we are a different species almost. Another thing we know is that when men listen only 4 parts of their brains lights up in a MRI and when women listen 8 parts of their brain lights up. Does make communication more difficult. Maybe that is why most congressional panels lately want no women testifying.

The other four parts of the brain that light up in women seem to happen in their imagination and or emotional areas. I will certainly agree there is more activity in the brain going on with most women in conversation. I am unconvinced of the positive implications of it, however.

The phrase, "only 4 parts" is made to sound like a limitation, but I would disagree. My definition of multitasking is,' doing more than one thing at a time less than optimally'.

Depends on the woman. It used to drive my ex-husband crazy how well I could multitask and still be about 4 steps ahead of him in conversation. He was admittedly jealous.

[write4change]

Modwiz, was that your joke? LOL I expected better.

[NancyV]

Believing that monogamy is right and the correct way to behave is societal and religious brainwashing, in my opinion.

Now you said it was your opinion, so let me see if I can sway you.

Gibbon monkeys mate for life, and as far as I know they don't have a religion.
Swans,Wolves,Albatrosses, Beavers,Pigeons,Lobsters just to name a few are monogamous when in a relationship and some even for life.
The lack of monogamy or "respect" for the other person in said relationship, is one of the biggest downfalls of marriage. And when marriages started breaking down so did society.
Just because monogamy might not be natural ( still up for discussion ) doesn't make it bad.
I'm always open to having my views changed! In fact I've changed my opinion so many times about sex, fidelity, "free love", celibacy, etc. that it may change again, although I doubt it since I'm almost 65. I have been quite happy with many different philosophies and practices, including celibacy on a spiritual path for 7 years, study of tantric sex, so-called wife-swapping in the 70's, free love and orgies in the hippie era, to being monogamous for many years at a time.

Basically sex is an issue that is totally subjective. Whether or not you enjoy it with one or 200 different partners depends on so many things. We deal with all kinds of programming, societal and religious dictates, parental and extended family behaviors, peer pressure, etc. When one begins to realize how brainwashed we are it's still a long task to overcome the programming, if you even want to.

There is nothing bad about monogamy but if it is a non choice because of brainwashing we received in our formative years, then it's not really much of a free or informed choice. However I still don't think monogamy is entirely natural for humans as a whole because that would mean the human species would have more of a chance of becoming extinct. Sex with multiple partners truly is a natural instinct and a driving force for most males and their hormonal makeup guarantees they will have a strong sex drive. It's also probable that in times of over population more men (and possibly women) will be born who are homosexual or asexual. This happens in many animal populations including human, so homosexuality and asexuality may be entirely normal ways for nature to deal with imbalances.

One thing I learned in my many years and from having multiple partners is that even if you think certain men are just out to have as much sex as they can with as many different women as they can, they all truly want love. Sex is not only a way to propagate the species or a fun pastime, it's a way to express and receive love. I found that virtually 100% of my lovers responded to love, and some of them were difficult to reach....but I know how to give love even if it was for a one night stand. Love is the most powerful energy.

As I mentioned in my previous post, we do merge with multiple other consciousnesses in other dimensions. There is no such thing as fidelity to a partner because other consciousnesses are just separated parts of yourself and you do feel more whole whenever you merge with another. So not only may there be a human survival instinct driving humans to have sex, there is also a soul imperative to merge with other beings. Sex is the closest thing to merging that we can experience in body, in my experience. Of course you can have incredible experiences just expanding your awareness, merging with the earth, feeling others energies, feeling the beauty of everything.... but most people don't do that, so sex may bring them closer to transcending the physical than anything else they do.

[Kimberley]

This thread is right up my alley~~ I have been writing a book about this very topic for a few years now... you may never see the book so do not wait for it, however I have been writing it for the many loves and lovers past present and future. I have had many relationships in my life and my children and the father of my children, that I only married to legitimize our children in this western society... I like, love and respect the father of my/our children immensely!!! However he is not my best friend and he does not have the same appetite for sexuality that I have, and I fully appreciate him for who he is.

The powers that are NO more use love and sexuality as tools do divide and concur...more so than any other tools they have used. I love everyone and nobody can tell/dictate how I chose to share my love in any way shape or form. Man made rules and institutions, that have been set up to keep/enslave the masses in/at bay have no power over me any longer... Yaa Hoo... and I am expecting that the masses will wake up to this understanding eventually.

We are at a time where we get to chose love over fear. Love is not an exclusive thing (as most of us were taught) true love is all encompassing and we are able to love all in multiple ways. And to be told to not love is one of the biggest lies we have been told. To be told that we are "supposed to" only love one man or one women for life exclusively is ridiculous!!!

For the minority one partner does happen however for the majority there are multiple loves and lovers. There are so many that I love that I have never and will never have "sex" with and there have been many I have had sex with... to be "told" to keep love limited is a lie!!!

I say love everyone, absolutely every one. However that does not mean you want to be friends, or hang out with everyone, just love everyone. And if you become great friends, congratulations, and if you become lovers, congratulations...Just please remember that love is all encompassing and not an inclusive endeavor!!!

Much love to us ALL!!! Always and in all ways!!! :grouphug:

[modwiz]

Modwiz, was that your joke? LOL I expected better.

Then you were expecting me to lie. I do not dispute the data of the MRI's. I have my own understanding of the implications.

[Kimberley]

And another thing to remember...sexuality is different when you are fertile than when you are not fertile... I am now 2 years not fertile, and when I was fertile it was a different issue... I have had two abortions and the partner that inseminated me is the same man that is the father of my 2 daughters that we chose to be born. I was very careful with using birth control methods and those methods failed me at age 29 and again at age 42 and at those times I was not wanting to bring a child into my/our life. We had the choice to not and we did not bring a child into the mix until we were ready to do so. I am so very grateful for that choice and the ability to do something about it!!!!

Anyway... we have so many choices and we have been led to believe there is right and wrong and I do not believe in a definitive right and wrong... what may be right for me may be wrong for you and vis versa.. I suggest that we judge not and realize we all have unique paths and stories and if we can agree to disagree all is well!!!


Much love!! :grouphug:

[nearing]

Thanks Kimberley, I couldn't agree more.

I have hypnotherapy training and have taken people to past lives many times. A major part of the session is when the Collective Subconscious gets to speak and answer questions that the client has. The words come out of the clients' mouth but are not theirs. It's a cool process. Anyway, questions always arise over major life decisions, including abortion, and whether the client made the right choice. Inevitably, the choice was the correct one for the soul at that time. ALWAYS.

We do a lot of unnecessary hand wringing in life over these decisions.

If anyone is interested in learning more about these sessions and what goes on in them they should read: The Convoluted Universe series by Dolores Cannon. Start with book 1.

[write4change]

Nancy, that was a beautifully written piece about how you love. When I was first asked to join the Viet Nam vet program, I was enticed by the money which came from grants but because they wanted nurses was really really good for those days. However, when confronted with a file of a very handsome young man like Modwiz was who has lost both legs and has a clostomy bag and is a pale shadow of the pictures in his file, knowing how to handle a clostomy is not enough. You have to come to that young man with all the love you can muster for that moment. And it has to be real or he will feel other wise because for the first time in his life he is a ball of raw feeling. I learned so many things from that experience and grew in ways I never would without it. No love of any kind is ever wasted and you have expressed that so well.

I can see this book will do more for men than women.

Like you Kimberly, I have been writing a book all about it but it may never see the light of day. I have enjoyed beeing lead by the universe to do it. If I survive 2012, I may pursue it more diligently. I also enjoyed what you had to say and I like you married my husband for our child. He kept insisting. He was wrong and it would have been better not to. When you marry it is to families and other long term relationships. My husband had three other children that were adults when our daughter was born. Their message to her always was take a long walk off a short pier better that she did not have to deal with that on a continual basis. Again everything is individual.

I also had an abortion 8 months after my daughter was born. To this day, I do not know how it happened. I must have muttered don't wake me up. But the pills failed because I was taking tecnocycline for a major ear infection and the doctor failed to tell me it would negate the pill. I barely made the pregnancy at 39 and I wanted to be there to raise our daughter which was also my husband's wish. I did not think I would get through another with toxemia, pre eclampsia etc. I believe my life is my choice not some legislative bill passed on religious principles that I have no belief in.

This may evolve into a woman's thread as this book is really freeing to women but I bet the men will read it.

[Solstyse]

Believing that monogamy is right and the correct way to behave is societal and religious brainwashing, in my opinion.

Now you said it was your opinion, so let me see if I can sway you.

Gibbon monkeys mate for life, and as far as I know they don't have a religion.
Swans,Wolves,Albatrosses, Beavers,Pigeons,Lobsters just to name a few are monogamous when in a relationship and some even for life.
The lack of monogamy or "respect" for the other person in said relationship, is one of the biggest downfalls of marriage. And when marriages started breaking down so did society.
Just because monogamy might not be natural ( still up for discussion ) doesn't make it bad.
I'm always open to having my views changed! In fact I've changed my opinion so many times about sex, fidelity, "free love", celibacy, etc. that it may change again, although I doubt it since I'm almost 65. I have been quite happy with many different philosophies and practices, including celibacy on a spiritual path for 7 years, study of tantric sex, so-called wife-swapping in the 70's, free love and orgies in the hippie era, to being monogamous for many years at a time.

Basically sex is an issue that is totally subjective. Whether or not you enjoy it with one or 200 different partners depends on so many things. We deal with all kinds of programming, societal and religious dictates, parental and extended family behaviors, peer pressure, etc. When one begins to realize how brainwashed we are it's still a long task to overcome the programming, if you even want to.

There is nothing bad about monogamy but if it is a non choice because of brainwashing we received in our formative years, then it's not really much of a free or informed choice. However I still don't think monogamy is entirely natural for humans as a whole because that would mean the human species would have more of a chance of becoming extinct. Sex with multiple partners truly is a natural instinct and a driving force for most males and their hormonal makeup guarantees they will have a strong sex drive. It's also probable that in times of over population more men (and possibly women) will be born who are homosexual or asexual. This happens in many animal populations including human, so homosexuality and asexuality may be entirely normal ways for nature to deal with imbalances.

One thing I learned in my many years and from having multiple partners is that even if you think certain men are just out to have as much sex as they can with as many different women as they can, they all truly want love. Sex is not only a way to propagate the species or a fun pastime, it's a way to express and receive love. I found that virtually 100% of my lovers responded to love, and some of them were difficult to reach....but I know how to give love even if it was for a one night stand. Love is the most powerful energy.

As I mentioned in my previous post, we do merge with multiple other consciousnesses in other dimensions. There is no such thing as fidelity to a partner because other consciousnesses are just separated parts of yourself and you do feel more whole whenever you merge with another. So not only may there be a human survival instinct driving humans to have sex, there is also a soul imperative to merge with other beings. Sex is the closest thing to merging that we can experience in body, in my experience. Of course you can have incredible experiences just expanding your awareness, merging with the earth, feeling others energies, feeling the beauty of everything.... but most people don't do that, so sex may bring them closer to transcending the physical than anything else they do.

Thank you NancyV for the well thought out, and equally well written response. You totally clarified what you ment, and I agree with a lot of your points.
This is honestly a subject i should stay out of. Sexuality, and me just don't mix very well, and it has been one of the main causes of my depression for many years. My views have addmittingly been warped by a Christian upbrining and repeated rejections/failures.
I believe my points are still valid, but your post is greatly appreciated.

[Cjay]

Often, those who preach "thou shalt not..." are the biggest hypocrites of all because they do all (or most) of the things they tell us not to do. I wonder if sex outside of marriage being declared a sin is yet another control mechanism. OR is it because the Satanists have such a lust for virgins, they want to keep them all to themselves. Just thinking out loud here...

[The Arthen]

No matter what your opinion is on monogamy - as long as you're a man, you have to shut your mouth and not say anything.

Often, it doesn't matter if you're into monogamy or multiple partners.

If you're into monogamy, people will tell you that you're "insecure" and just "wanna impose your views on poor women" and "tell them what to do" with their lives.

If you're into multiple partners, the SAME people will tell you that you're a "typical man, not worth looking at".

(hypocrisy ignored by using the "insecurity" accusation)

Because you will ALWAYS be accused of being "insecure", or "telling women what to do", or "imposing your will" on others, and all that stuff.

Besides the very keen and great observations made on this topic here - but other than that - funnily enough, "insecurity" is often the most common imposition itself, no matter WHICH side of the coin you're more inclined with!

[write4change]

That Arthen is the point of the whole book in my humble opinion. It is the supposed need of women for security for themselves and their children that has created the monogamy paradigm. If life for women and children were secure there would be no need for monogamy. Thus, it is a control issue. What the book and the clip clearly states is that in bonobo society there is no recorded war, infanticide, rape, and reduction of self esteem. There is less stress to all involved and the males all get laid more. Sex is used for peace and sharing. In the champanzee society, it is exactly the opposite. Dispersal of food begins the fight and everything is trickle down from there.

In the middle ages, once the marriage contract was completed and the heir provided, people were basically but discreetly free to have sex with a more suitable partner despite the catholic church. Inquisitions were used by your enemies to stop you from rising or to get your stuff. Only people with great talent like Leonardo Di Vinci escaped them. He was first brought before the Inquistion and beaten at 17 for anonymous charges. In his life, he was called to the Inquisition twice more. Do we need to wonder why he developed mirror writing and symbols?

The exact same thing remains true today. They dirty laundry is known, it just is not brought out until leadership and impact is developed. Herbert Hoover blackmailed every single American president he worked for. He made it quite clear he had a file on everyone. Eliot Spitzer and his call girl crime was and is no different.

Supposedly if you give a woman security, she gives you freedom. Among the rich in the beginning of the last century, husbands had mistresses, kings had mistresses, etc. The understanding is-- it was discreet and if you stepped out of that pattern you suffered socially. Today's scandals are because of the fundies who give their numerical power to the rich who have never had to abide by a little stuff on the side being a scandal. So now you have serial monogamy with much bitterness because on a whole if you are the woman when you loose the prize husband to the trophy wife you loose your social standing and so do your kids on a whole. Now we have more ego wars over all kinds of security. All of these are relatively new terms showing up in the last 30 years. In the book, it talks about how women feel they must kick their husband out rather they want to or not. Many men flaunt to get out of what they no longer want and let the wife do the "right" thing. The reality is there are very few places that recognize adultry with punishment as grounds for divorce. Thus, women still have no security, only the illusion, which makes them mean and vindictive when they are insecure. And men even when married to trophy wives like Halley Berry and Sandra Bullock have to prove their masculine disirability because their ego is so wounded by having sugar mommies.

I really do think if we were tribes focused on the raising of children as being everyone's children, that is when we get peace and security. This book and this thread is about considering an entirely different way of thinking about how we would evolve to a new earth. Nuclear families are less than 100 years old and they are mostly failures.

[The Arthen]

If life for women and children were secure there would be no need for monogamy. Thus, it is a control issue. What the book and the clip clearly states is that in bonobo society there is no recorded war, infanticide, rape, and reduction of self esteem. There is less stress to all involved and the males all get laid more. Sex is used for peace and sharing. In the champanzee society, it is exactly the opposite. Dispersal of food begins the fight and everything is trickle down from there.

In the middle ages, once the marriage contract was completed and the heir provided, people were basically but discreetly free to have sex with a more suitable partner despite the catholic church. Inquisitions were used by your enemies to stop you from rising or to get your stuff. Only people with great talent like Leonardo Di Vinci escaped them. He was first brought before the Inquistion and beaten at 17 for anonymous charges. In his life, he was called to the Inquisition twice more. Do we need to wonder why he developed mirror writing and symbols?

The exact same thing remains true today. They dirty laundry is known, it just is not brought out until leadership and impact is developed. Herbert Hoover blackmailed every single American president he worked for. He made it quite clear he had a file on everyone. Eliot Spitzer and his call girl crime was and is no different.

Supposedly if you give a woman security, she gives you freedom. Among the rich in the beginning of the last century, husbands had mistresses, kings had mistresses, etc. The understanding is-- it was discreet and if you stepped out of that pattern you suffered socially. Today's scandals are because of the fundies who give their numerical power to the rich who have never had to abide by a little stuff on the side being a scandal. So now you have serial monogamy with much bitterness because on a whole if you are the woman when you loose the prize husband to the trophy wife you loose your social standing and so do your kids on a whole. Now we have more ego wars over all kinds of security. All of these are relatively new terms showing up in the last 30 years. In the book, it talks about how women feel they must kick their husband out rather they want to or not. Many men flaunt to get out of what they no longer want and let the wife do the "right" thing. The reality is there are very few places that recognize adultry with punishment as grounds for divorce. Thus, women still have no security, only the illusion, which makes them mean and vindictive when they are insecure. And men even when married to trophy wives like Halley Berry and Sandra Bullock have to prove their masculine disirability because their ego is so wounded by having sugar mommies.

I really do think if we were tribes focused on the raising of children as being everyone's children, that is when we get peace and security. This book and this thread is about considering an entirely different way of thinking about how we would evolve to a new earth. Nuclear families are less than 100 years old and they are mostly failures.




Sure, not that I do not see a need to evolve into a new earth.

But do not forget that we each are also manifesting our current timeline. Dire mistakes are often made when we make too much reference to the past, that it becomes a justification for ignoring even the simplest of things that work in the now as well.

The reason why I'm taking my time to hold my own reservations because I've seen one too many cockeyed liberals jumping into the classic behavior of justifying why they want to get rid of old-fashioned thinking because of so much suffering - but they always end up causing most of contemporary suffering themselves, ironically based on that very justification of "reducing suffering because of older belief systems".

In the end, a "contemporary" new belief system is formed, which although might give some the satisfaction of being different from other belief systems - still does not serve any improvements whatsoever.

I also find many desperate men trying to be part of the conversation with the women who talk about changing belief systems (often only for themselves), but they ignore the women who are still perfectly happy with older belief systems.

This makes me a complete fly on the wall when it comes to such discussions.

I think I'll keep my eyes on contemporary discussions still, especially when those discussions entail "getting rid of belief systems to form a new one".

We're still children in our evolution. We all get very excited when we form new belief systems, often ignoring newer problems altogether as a more "radical" way of showing how "new" the ideas we've come up with. That alone is enough to make me take my time with such issues, and not get pressured into a "new way" of thinking "just because" we must.

[write4change]

For me it would be a new earth and a new way of thinking. For the peoples of Amazonia, Oceania, and other rainforest tribes, it is preserving their way of life for thousands of years with stable populations.

[The Arthen]

That's perfectly fine. Just my own two cents, that's all. :)

You're right, new ways of thinking should either way still be allowed to bear their fruits. Only then, time will tell.

Not condeming any possibility of new ways of thought like a religious nut, but neither am I quick to blame "control issues" for restricting new ways of thought.

Reason is - I saw 2 different "controlling" people preach the same thing.

One was out of genuine love.

The other was abusive and completely way off.

The world seems to always choose to see the latter. (not that the world is wrong, but could it possibly be insecurity on the world's part itself as well? definitely.)

Eventually the ones who only see the "controlling" effect will wage all kinds of misery in the name of escaping the "controlling issue". That was when it hit me - wait a minute. If we can't even resolve our current belief systems AT LEAST by repairing minute things that can make a huge difference - then why all the "rebellion against it"?

Not that I'm saying there's no such thing as controlling douchebags who just wanna control everything. Yes, there are plenty. I KNOW there are plenty.

BUT, BUT - nowadays we're all very quick to jump to that conclusion as well, while ignoring a ****load of other elements in the process.

Sometimes an outright rebellion serves nothing more than a thoughtless "Yes, anything's better than this, mate!" sorta thing. Sounds familiar? :)

Not really a good thing in my eyes either...

[9eagle9]

You're right. They will tell you that. Women hear it too. If they have multiple partners they're 'S**ts'. If they are more reserved or perhaps even just less explicit in their sexuality they are 'frigid'.

It's not really the issue of monogamy or having multiple partners, its the conditions that force us into those paradigsm or allow us into them. Are we making those choices out of free will or because of conditioning or programming imposed on us?

I don't think in this thread you have to shut your mouth. I am interested in the man's opinion regardless if I agree with it or not, after all it has nothing to do with me or will affect me personally. The people who will get overactive to either notion, reservation of sexuality or sexually explicit, are the ones whose own program of conditioning gets threatened. Females in particular that base their self value in a man's approval. And men who base their self value in a woman's approval.

People, male and female, spend a great deal of time propping up their self idenity with their gender roles.

Remember the bad boy syndrome that women speak of. It was explained that women were attracted to men who were emotionally unavailable. I am beginning to rethink that theory. I wonder sometimes if a particular sort of woman who doesn't want to have co-dependency imposed on them, are attracted to men who won't impose emotional neediness upon them.


No matter what your opinion is on monogamy - as long as you're a man, you have to shut your mouth and not say anything.

Often, it doesn't matter if you're into monogamy or multiple partners.

If you're into monogamy, people will tell you that you're "insecure" and just "wanna impose your views on poor women" and "tell them what to do" with their lives.

If you're into multiple partners, the SAME people will tell you that you're a "typical man, not worth looking at".

(hypocrisy ignored by using the "insecurity" accusation)

Because you will ALWAYS be accused of being "insecure", or "telling women what to do", or "imposing your will" on others, and all that stuff.

Besides the very keen and great observations made on this topic here - but other than that - funnily enough, "insecurity" is often the most common imposition itself, no matter WHICH side of the coin you're more inclined with!

[write4change]

what I liked about this book a lot was the studies it presented. Not just their interpretations of them but that I could ponder things about them on my own. Sexuality is so repressed in our society particularly in the time I was growing up that we are often silent within our selves about it. i have often thought I was a mutant because I thought things and sometimes experienced things with my thinking that I had no inking other women shared. One of the great things of this book was finding out things I had been struggling against were basic feminine reactions.

One of the studies was to determine the difference between what people said turned them on and what actually turned them on. They did this by showing various pictures and film clips while people had wires attached to their genitalia. First, they did it with just the pictures and no wiring to see what people said turned them on or off. Then they showed them the pictures wired up. Then they showed them the pictures wired up after being givin hormonal stimulants ie testosterone.

What they found was that heterosexual men became more heterosexual and more horny, homosexual men were not changed much and neither were lesbians, but the more heterosexual the woman the more she either lied or was totally not in touch with her body responses. These women all said the pictures had almost no effect on them but their bodies said otherwise. But the most interesting thing was that heterosexual women were turned on in some degree to everything including watching animals copulate which had almost no effect on heterosexual men. Women were on a whole into watching everything and did not find anything really boring as long as it changed.

That came as a great wow to me. At my age, i know I am still interested in everything. I just thought I was perculiar that way and kept it to myself. To find out that almost all women are that way and we deny it all the time was a great amusement to me. It also tells me part of all this repression. Men may know instinctively that that is true and they are not amused by it. The recent Kinsley report after 50 years also found that women desire by far more novelty then men and that it is men who are far happier with repeated ritual and that is also a control factor for them.

[nearing]

write4change said:

The recent Kinsley report after 50 years also found that women desire by far more novelty then men and that it is men who are far happier with repeated ritual and that is also a control factor for them.

That is really interesting. Funny how we are meant to think the opposite.

[write4change]

The big increase in divorce rates are the over 60. And over 65% are initiated by women. My own mother did well in her second marriage until she retired. He had already been retired about 5 years before her. He practically wanted to hold her hand while she sat on the pot. She divorced him when she knew I was going to buy a house for renters -- she got to live in it. It was only a few miles from him and they continued to date together, go visiting, grocery shopping etc. Until she divorced him, she could not get him to go out of the house for a movie etc. They were great friends and companions until he died.

I used to kid my husband that as soon as he retired, I was going back to work full time. I loved him but he was a tax attorney CPA and almost OCD about a lot of things. He would eye my kitchen and tell me how when he retired he would organize it once and for all. This from a man who could not boil water. I told him when that day arrived the kitchen and cookbooks were his. LOL

[Arrowwind]

Nuclear families I do think are a control device created by religions.

People who are secure **** who they fell like when they feel like it. It is social constraints that force both men and women into behavior that is not in alignment with who they are inside. If you fear the church, the government, social standing, your mother in law, you will be forced to do things that you would not otherwise do.

We essentiallly do not know who we are for every second of our lives is controlled by beliefs imposed and accepted by us.

I was an active part of the sexual revolution

when it came to having children I wanted a man who could get up, put up and shut up. I have a gem.
He is his individual self and so am I. We leave each other to be who we want to be hence the relationship lasts.
We agreed when we got married that monogamy was a suitable choice. Of course it doesnt' have to be that way for everyone.

Actually plural marriage is very attractive on many levels. Women often can emotionally sustain each other much better than a man can support a woman.
Sisters has always been quite fulfilling for me. .. and I have had signficant closeness emotionally and intellectually with woman, yet have no sexual attraction to speak of. Yet I do have an attraction. I am attracted to beauty ... women are very beautiful.. but I dont get off on it. Men are beautiful too in other ways... a strong male with an open heart is very beautiful (and sexy)

So is anyone talking hear about open heart?

One thing that probably should be discussed is hormones. People do lots of strange stuff when their hormones are screwed up and that you will find in oh so many people these days, both men and women. Neurosis abounds when hormones are not up to par, whether thryoid, sex hormones, or cortisol... and it a part of our medical paradigm that is in perpetual denial. It is an age old problem that I think is getting worse due to the chemicals and stress in our society.

You know most people are so ****ed up I stopped trying to figure it out long ago. Most people are pretty hopeless.

[CD7]

Yes ive wondered this...monogomy being unnatural?...

i was in another country (in school with other students) and they were very suprised that we were not all having sex with each other in our camp..it was very natural for them to think in "free sexual" terms.
In an industrial society they NEED men/women workers to stay put to work for the "machine". So "families" and culture will condition everyone to live this way--one family unit-mortgage to keep u in debt/place for all of ur working age.
In AFRICA do u think the government gives a FlyIN Fk where "their" people are or what their doing?, no---they certainly arent grooming them for industry!? So they wander the vast wilderness living, i suppose, closer to the "animal" nature of human.
As a female, i can certainly agree UNEQUIVOCALLY...from what ive witnessed, and sorry fellas!, men do not care to be ONLY with one woman. Its as if men are living against the grain.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Where are the women discussing this issue? That's typical. If men feel that it is unnatural to be monogamous then they should say that upfront before marriage. Or even better, men can start marrying each other and they can cheat on each other too, besides they would agree that having multiple partners while being in a relationship is perfectly fine. A match made in heaven.

Does it actually matter what gender the individual is having the discussion? I prefer to do such things gender-less, so that the exploration is about the subject and whatever personal triggers might arise from such exploration is a side issue. I have Beings as partners, not genders as partners, so perhaps my personal perspective is different.

[write4change]

Beings as partners. Instersting concept and expression. I will think on it.

[aranuk]

Monogomy suited the Landlord. It all goes back to feudal times I guess. If the monogomous family were adhered to they would be easier controlled. In the biblical days the master of the household would share a bed with the maidservant. The offspring were looked after inside the extended family. When the wife became barren the master would concentrate on the maidservant for more offspring. This is our legacy in "modern" times and has long gone past its sell by date methinks. Personally I am still married to my beautiful wife after 45 years. The bitch she is.:p

Stan

[Arrowwind]

You can have a being as a partner and that is fine.... but for many of us we want a male or a female when it comes to sex. All males and all females are beings. but they carry different types of baggage and no matter what you have to live with other peoples baggage if your going to live with them at all

[songsfortheotherkind]

I have to agree that monogamy is not completely natural for the human animal. Women seem to want monogamy more for the sake of security. Since they bear children and need to be taken care of and protected by their mate more so during pregnancy and when the child is young, it's natural to be more possessive during those years. Men have more of a natural instinct to spread their seed, which is a survival instinct meant to propagate the species.

Anthropology has demonstrated that this isn't really how most native cultures organise themselves- what tends to happen in many is that a) the women form their own support group, are the basis for the stability of the tribe, share the childrearing and daily routines together, with men as a side issue or b) the entire group is egalitarian and shares the care of children and one another across the board. There are, of course, other expressions of culture, such as women seen as cattle and/or possessions, and yet I feel personally that there are enough examples of cultures organising themselves in such a way as the first two examples to merit consideration as expressions of organisation that don't require monogamy or 'needing' the men for successful child raising and survival. I'm offering this as an observation.


Believing that monogamy is right and the correct way to behave is societal and religious brainwashing, in my opinion. I have observed that I went through many stages in my life, from having occasional lovers when young (and married), being monogamous when my children were young, having many lovers when single, to not having any interest in other men once I met and married my 4th husband whom I consider to be my soul mate.

He and I had similar experiences and behaviors. We both had many lovers and 3 previous marriages until we met each other 16 years ago. We occasionally jokingly argue about who had the most lovers. I say it's ME and he says it's HIM! Since we met no one else has interested us. It also may have to do with getting older and evolving to where it's natural to be less interested in sexual variety. But I also think that if you are extremely in love with someone you are not even slightly interested in anyone else, at least that's how it is for me. :)


To say that fidelity equates to a more evolved state doesn't seem correct to me.

I don't resonate with that either, for many different reasons, and primarily the main one is that I cannot equate a world where tolerance, acceptance of the Sui Generis of every Being, meaningful embracing and demonstration of the concept of equality as opposed to rhetoric, the end of poverty and economic model scarcity as well as many other things I see as expressions of evolution, being possible in a world where one Being feels they have the right to judge another in any way as being 'inferior'. Rationalising, no matter what the means used- religious, 'spiritual', intellectualism, psuedo-psychiatric etc- to me simply does not achieve the goals of global peace and unity that seem to be the desire of many. There is nothing useful, to my eyes, in holding up some kind of yardstick and having an 'above' and 'below', with all the judgments, hierarchies, domination and control mechanisms that lurk beneath the surface of such perspective.


When you leave your body and merge with other beings, which is a thousand times more intense and exciting than physical sex, you are actually evolving more by becoming more of who you are. You can merge with unlimited numbers of other beings. I think human sexuality gives us a tiny glimpse of that state and the desire to couple with others may just be that natural urge to merge again... with separated parts of who we are ...to become more whole.

I don't experience the merging, which I can do (although I don't consider it 'merging' in the way that most appear to use that word), with becoming 'more whole'. It's just something else: exquisite, absolutely, *and* it's another experience, not 'better' than anything else, it's Other. My joy in having physical sex is not inspired by a desire to 'merge', which I actually find- as a state of Being- dissonant; the experience of cohesion/ Beingness with others can be astounding *and* I don't actually seek it as a way of 'becoming' something which I already am. :) Connection is a way to experience aspects of the Wholeness that is already present. :)

[songsfortheotherkind]

You can have a being as a partner and that is fine.... but for many of us we want a male or a female when it comes to sex. All males and all females are beings. but they carry different types of baggage and no matter what you have to live with other peoples baggage if your going to live with them at all

the post I replied to was very heavily slanted towards an extreme division in Beingness between 'male' and 'female', painting the division with broad brushstrokes of suggestive judgement-


if men feel that it is unnatural to be monogamous then they should say that upfront before marriage /headtilt/ but if *women* feel that way they are not under the same obligation? What does being a *man* have to do with the issue of monogamy? Is the poster suggesting that non-monogamy is exclusively a *male* thing? This makes no sense at all to me.

What of those who are neither male nor female, but are subtle blends of both? One of my previous partners was a beautiful individual who chose identity as a female, had the breasts and hormones of a female and male genitalia. What is the 'correct' assignation of gender in zhur case? And 'should' we then, having made the 'correct' assignation, apply the above judgement based on whatever was decided by others? Zhe is poly, so what rules of generalisation (such as the one I have quoted above) 'should' then be applied?

The rest of the comment I was responding to had other female based generalisation that I also personally find unhelpful, so I will simply use the example quoted above to illustrate the point.

My comment in no way touched on the 'baggage' that we all come with, regardless of our gender. That, to me at least, is a topic that arises from woundedness, which can be experienced with or without a gender lens.

[161803398]

I think the PTB started the whole free love thing in the 60s. I had to suffer with this in the 70s because, I am, by nature a one man woman and not really interested in having a variety of sexual partners. I'm not particularly religious and I wasn't exposed to it much because our family is quite relaxed about such things. My Scandinavian grandfather went away fishing for two years in the 30s and came back to the farm to find two more kids there. I can't say he wasn't surprised but he loved the kids and it appears he thought, oh well, I was away a long time. But I hated the 70s "brainwashing" wherein people were made to feel strange if they didn't like the free love and if they felt more comfortable being loyal they were told they were mixed up. It was a big mess and not even nice going out on dates sometimes. I think the PTB would love to break the bonds of loyalty between couples. I saw it happening in the 70s. A lot of people were in a state of being constantly hurt because their boyfriend or girlfriend saw nothing wrong with screwing the world.

Considering people purely from a psychological, biological or anthropological point is view is a huge mistake but one, I think, that the PTB would love to have us make. Its been pushed on us before in the 60s and it was a disaster from an emotional, spiritual and, even a health point of view. If you have sex with someone you have to remember you are also having sex with all the other people they've had sex with. While I tend to experience relationships in a spiritual way and while I do not believe it is possible to form a strong sexual bond with a multiple persons, I do also take the health aspects extremely seriously. I wouldn't touch a guy with a barge pole if he told me he was having multiple relationships and viewed that as the norm.

I have two boy cats. Tell them that jealousy is unnatural. In the end, they have taken time shares in me but I think they are not totally happy with it. My dog also demands my loyalty. If someone has a lot of time on their hands maybe they could handle two relationships physically but no one will ever convince me there wouldn't be conflicted loyalties.

I'm a little concerned about the doctor on the forum getting into this philosophy. My doctor was into it 30 years ago and I saw what a disaster it made of his patients. This isn't a new thing, in case anyone thinks it is. I'm sure a doctor is a big score for the PTB because doctors can influence (and confuse) so many people.

[NancyV]

Where are the women discussing this issue? That's typical. If men feel that it is unnatural to be monogamous then they should say that upfront before marriage. Or even better, men can start marrying each other and they can cheat on each other too, besides they would agree that having multiple partners while being in a relationship is perfectly fine. A match made in heaven.

Does it actually matter what gender the individual is having the discussion? I prefer to do such things gender-less, so that the exploration is about the subject and whatever personal triggers might arise from such exploration is a side issue. I have Beings as partners, not genders as partners, so perhaps my personal perspective is different.
I have MEN for partners here on the physical plane. But I do have beings for partners as soon as I'm out of body, so I know what you mean. Here on earth I'm somewhat of a sexist and adore almost everything about men! I think genders are one of the fun games we get to experience here so I save my genderless and "Beings" games for out of body. :)

[write4change]

I was 26 when my first marriage broke up and I was very angry with men in general having been working with them out in the world for five years or so. ( To put this in perspective, prior to 1976 women had no rights to credit, bank accounts, insurance, and there were no patient rights. A husband could literally on his word have his wife kept in a psych ward for obseration for six weeks and she could not refuse any medication ordered by a doctor under those conditions. Some of this is addressed in the movie The Changling. There was also a psych diagnosis for women who were not content with their place; a modern inquisition for uppity women. ) So I was going to North Beach in San Francisco to test out the concept of becoming a lesbian. I was doing this because I was being taught even in current Psych classes that being gay was a lifestyle choice. Showed me how little shrinks knew. I found out there was no way I was ever going to be gay on physical basis.

I was seeking to just try something different; and as I now know, I am really into novelty in a woman's way just like Terrence McKenna did novelty theory as a male. Oh, and in those times and maybe these any woman proposing novelty theory as a rational idea would be hooted at -- one of the reasons I dig male geeks -- they are at least willing to indulge all kinds of thinking. I could care less if they steal my ideas; I just want the work done. Thus, I meet Ester who is an exotic dancer and I start taking belly dancing lessons from her. She is one of the most feminine women I have ever known with exquisite hands. I knew Ester over three months before we shared a bathroom together. It was then I found out Ester had male genetalia which were quite generous. I was not near as shocked as I was intriqued.

Ester considered herself a woman in a man's body and a form of karma. This was before people were discussing being transgendered etc. Ester would often disappear for weeks at a time and would be flown to very exotic locations to be with very wealthy Arab men. She was a very beautiful blonde. Arabs have special words for Ester which I can't remember and they are highly valued. I definitely would have gotten it on with Ester but Ester would have no part of it. Since she considered herself female; she was not into being a lesbian. Thus, she had relations only with men who allowed her to be a woman.

I also had a very close friend whose wife believed she was man trapped in a woman's body and that she was gay. She and her husband had an excellent relationship and very good marriage and sexual life. She also had never had any surgery or hormonal changes. But their whole relationship was based on them being two gay guys. The husband was an incredible man and he worked with all kinds of stuff as a very well known shrink. All he ever said to me was that she had been so abused once that forcing reality on her in any way would be a form of torture and he could handle it because he understood her and loved her for who she was--wounds and all.

So I learned very young at 26, more at 31 working with Viet Nam vets, and further on my own personal discoverys that there is nothing wrong in the way love is expressed. Great love and great compassion moves the universe if you accept the convergence theories. What is wrong is that we have been taught we should judge how one another's hearts should beat.

[161803398]

History 1950 to now from a conspiratorial viewpoint: 1950s -repression/guilt 1960s -- free love; 1970s --Aids/herpes; 1980s -- antibiotic resistent gonorrhea/cervical cancer (continuing to present); 1990s syphilis etc etc etc. And this is only the physical scars.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/epid-std.html

[aranuk]

Nancy that reminds me of a friend I had many many years ago. I am going to change names here so. Bernie was married for a number of years and had two children twin boys I think. He was involved with the IRA and an intellectual. Quite brilliant too and he worked with UNESCO travelling the world teaching people how to grow their own food. He was imprisoned in Turkey and tortured and beaten badly. Thrown out of the country and became one of the first men to go through the transgender operation. He became Bernadette and had a long relationship with a woman who was previously in a relationship for years with a man. Anyway Bernadette and Shirley lived happily together and moved abroad. I haven't heard of them for years. I could never puzzle that one out. So when he was married to a woman he must have felt like a woman trapped inside a mans body. But he wasn't a heterosexual woman he was a lesbian woman. Is that it?
I think I maybe figured it out while writing this.

Stan

[nearing]

I am posting this at write4change's request and she will fill you in on the background of it.

gL9l1L_pzOE

[161803398]

I've never had sex that wasn't tantric but that's because I'm picky. I doubt you can get it with a "free love" bonobo mentality. Nothing against bonobos who are perfectly fine creatures. I'm just not one of them.

[write4change]

History 1960 to now from a conspiratorial viewpoint: 1960s -- free love; 1970s --Aids/herpes; 1980s -- antibiotic resistent gonorrhea/cervical cancer (continuing to present); 1990s syphilis etc etc etc. And this is only the physical scars.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/epid-std.html

161803398, we have all heard these judgments and these statistics over and over. We know how that goes. What we are seeking is to find out all the things that we have not been allowed to know. We have no problem with how you have decided to live your live. You need to allow us to decide how we live ours and what we want to explore.

The poisons of the world are greed, judgment, and ignorance. Their antidotes are generosity, compassion, and wisdom. The convergence theory or as Arrowwind would say the open heart theory is that the earth beats at low megahertz that exactly matches the megahertz of the heart. The heart's electromagnetic field is 5000 times that of the brain. When 911 happened, the satillites 22,000 miles up in space showed a spike 15 minutes after the first plane hit in the magnetic field of the whole planet. That was the universe's response to world wide heart felt emmanations sent out from our bodies.

If you wish to explore this and other implications of what it means to share our bodies and our hearts, you are welcome. If you wish to express your judgments, we have all been there and never felt it helped much.

[NancyV]

Nancy that reminds me of a friend I had many many years ago. I am going to change names here so. Bernie was married for a number of years and had two children twin boys I think. He was involved with the IRA and an intellectual. Quite brilliant too and he worked with UNESCO travelling the world teaching people how to grow their own food. He was imprisoned in Turkey and tortured and beaten badly. Thrown out of the country and became one of the first men to go through the transgender operation. He became Bernadette and had a long relationship with a woman who was previously in a relationship for years with a man. Anyway Bernadette and Shirley lived happily together and moved abroad. I haven't heard of them for years. I could never puzzle that one out. So when he was married to a woman he must have felt like a woman trapped inside a mans body. But he wasn't a heterosexual woman he was a lesbian woman. Is that it?
I think I maybe figured it out while writing this.

Stan
Stan, I think you're referring to the story about Ester from Write4change and it was a great story! Wow,your story was great too! I don't think we really can figure out what motivates others to do what they do or to be who they are. I quit trying to judge sexual preferences and attractions many decades ago. Most of us probably have some residual societal brainwashing about gays or gender changes, especially if raised in certain parts of the US. There are times I feel more like a man than a woman but I also very much enjoy being a woman and I've only ever been attracted to men. But we are all unique. I have a lot of empathy for those who seem to be born in the wrong gender because all their feelings and attractions don't match their body. It must be a huge challenge and cause them a lot of pain and confusion.

[161803398]

161803398, we have all heard these judgments and these statistics over and over. We know how that goes. What we are seeking is to find out all the things that we have not been allowed to know. We have no problem with how you have decided to live your live. You need to allow us to decide how we live ours and what we want to explore.

That's what I saying in my first post, if you read it. Each to his own and I didn't like this guy telling people what they should be. I'm just saying what my experience of the 70s was and how it hurt many people. I don't know how you were never allowed to know this. Its already old news.

[aranuk]

Absolutely Nancy.

Stan

[161803398]

I feel like I'm in a time warp. Our high school had the highest drug rate and the highest pregnancy rate AND the highest academic rate. After that the high schools got the bullies and I always tell people that is because they tried to fix the first two things. So, thinking I am judgmental because I'm letting people know there IS a flip side to watch for is a little amazing to me. Something must have happened subsequent to that that I don't know about OR did the sexual revolution only happen in Canada? My god...my friend, Elaine, a straight A student was banging our biology teacher in the storage room every day after school and we thought nothing of it. Our gym teacher and music teachers were gay and we thought nothing of that. When did all this repression come back? I know...after we got the bullies. My objection to this guy is that he is approaching sex from an anthropological/psychology viewpoint which, I believe, is extremely limited and exactly what the PTB want us to believe.

I think in speaking we must consider the background of the audience and, I think, we are not on the same page here because my experience with society is that it is sexually very free. I'm not getting the repression part and I don't understand it.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Does it actually matter what gender the individual is having the discussion? I prefer to do such things gender-less, so that the exploration is about the subject and whatever personal triggers might arise from such exploration is a side issue. I have Beings as partners, not genders as partners, so perhaps my personal perspective is different.

I have MEN for partners here on the physical plane. But I do have beings for partners as soon as I'm out of body, so I know what you mean. Here on earth I'm somewhat of a sexist and adore almost everything about men! I think genders are one of the fun games we get to experience here so I save my genderless and "Beings" games for out of body. :)

I wasn't discussing out of the body. I was actually referring to my physical relationships, which are not restricted to or defined by particular configurations of genitalia and body appearance. When I refer to 'Beings' it is encompassing all expressions of dimension. :)

I am with several partners because of who they are as Beings. Not because of a preference for gender/s. :)

[write4change]

Okay friends I have to take a break for a couple of hours. I just wrote a long historical progression of Tantra and lost it. I remain technologically impaired.

[nearing]

I feel like I'm in a time warp. Our high school had the highest drug rate and the highest pregnancy rate AND the highest academic rate. After that the high schools got the bullies and I always tell people that is because they tried to fix the first two things. So, thinking I am judgmental because I'm letting people know there IS a flip side to watch for is a little amazing to me. Something must have happened subsequent to that that I don't know about OR did the sexual revolution only happen in Canada? My god...my friend, Elaine, a straight A student was banging our biology teacher in the storage room every day after school and we thought nothing of it. Our gym teacher and music teachers were gay and we thought nothing of that. When did all this repression come back? I know...after we got the bullies. My objection to this guy is that he is approaching sex from an anthropological/psychology viewpoint which, I believe, is extremely limited and exactly what the PTB want us to believe.

I think in speaking we must consider the background of the audience and, I think, we are not on the same page here because my experience with society is that it is sexually very free. I'm not getting the repression part and I don't understand it.

If you would watch the presentation in the OP, you will see this is an anthropological discussion. The question of diseases is a given in modern times and he even speaks of it.

I also must head to bed now. Night all.

[161803398]

That's what I said---anthropological. Its limiting. Sorry but I've seen so many guys like that I don't find them interesting.

I'm not disagreeing with what he says: read what I said about my high school --- ie. no bullies. The bullies came after they tried to fix the "problem". What I am saying is that there is more -- a lot more and this guy wouldn't be able to see it because he is limited....just saying. Its a bit painful to listen to...maybe like listening to Justin Bieber talk about music. However, as I said, he's not wrong in what he says. Just limited.

[songsfortheotherkind]

That's what I said---anthropological. Its limiting. Sorry but I've seen so many guys like that I don't find them interesting.

I'm not disagreeing with what he says: read what I said about my high school --- ie. no bullies. The bullies came after they tried to fix the "problem". What I am saying is that there is more -- a lot more and this guy wouldn't be able to see it because he is limited....just saying. Its a bit painful to listen to...maybe like listening to Justin Bieber talk about music.

So then, with respect, perhaps this thread is discussing something outside your area of interest/preference?

[161803398]

No, really its spot on. I don't think people are listening or that they get it. He has a good point to make -- however, its a limited one. Its not the entire picture. A picture worth noting for sure and maybe something to be taught to even more limited people than I contemplate. Probably the same people who wanted to fix the "problem" of sex at school. I suppose if we are talking about the masses in the great belly of the curve, its an important message.

[songsfortheotherkind]

No, really its spot on. I don't think people are listening or that they get it.


That's what I said---anthropological. Its limiting. Sorry but I've seen so many guys like that I don't find them interesting.

Just so I understand- you come into a thread that is discussing a subject from an anthropological perspective, when you don't find such perspectives interesting- and then you suggest that it is others that aren't listening or that aren't getting it?

[161803398]

Its not interesting because its very common and has been around a long time. Someone thought I was being judgmental because I was pointing out the flip side of the coin. I do think the PTB encourage this way of thinking. That's a point that's not gotten apparently. How we are manipulated with this stuff. I'm glad I missed whatever sexual repression has apparently occurred since the 70s. Its not a good thing however, I did suspect it because of the bully problem at the schools that developed afterwards.

Also pointing out its not the full story. Anthropological thinking is not the highest form of thought. Its a bit better than psychologists who are just one step above your garden variety psychopath.

I guess what I am saying is "bonobos" is square one. Why is anyone making a fuss about it? I didn't realize some repression must have occurred. Glad I missed it.

But also, people seem to think that we are being brainwashed by the idea of monogamy. I'm also pointing out that brainwashing goes both ways. That was the point of my story about the 70s.

[Kimberley]

I love this thread and will add more when I can!!! Much love to us all!!! :hug:

[Seikou-Kishi]

I have serious qualms about having an affair. If an affair is taken to mean a surreptitious tryst, I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it. If I was not content with one person, I would find somebody who was of a similar mindset and be with them rather than betray somebody for whom monogamy is important. On the other hand, if the other person knew and was happy with it, I wouldn't see the slightest bit of harm in it at all. I think for me it just comes down to respecting the other person: if you love them more than you hate monogamy, you've made your decision; if you don't then you can leave them and find somebody of a more appropriate fit. (But sleep with those other people only once you've broken off the relationship).

If you make sure to get the interpersonal integrity and respect for your partner down, what does it come down to? Nuts and bolts thrashing about and no more morality in it than hang-gliding.

For me, the distinction is one of "sure, sleep with whomever you like, just never cheat"

I wonder if there are people reading who might think me terribly dogmatic and dictatorial for saying these things. I hope most people will understand my reasoning even if they disagree. We have to remember just because something might be all right by us, it doesn't mean it will be all right by everybody and "I wouldn't have minded if x had happened to me" is not really a sound argument. I wouldn't particularly get bent out of shape if I woke up with reproductive organs or obscene words drawn/written on my face, it's part of most university experiences, but I wouldn't go around with a big marker pen saying "what's good for me is good for you"

[161803398]

Metaphysical bonds are formed between people which, when broken, are more traumatic than broken bones, but unseen and easily denied, even to oneself. Unfortunately, we are living in a society that is constantly traumatizing. Its no wonder what is now happening to the world.

I had this idea the other day: everyone has noticed that people don't think well when they are being emotional. My theory is that it works both ways. The parts of the brain that govern emotion and thought are separate. Just as people don't think well when they are feeling emotional; they also don't "feel" well when they are thinking. I have noticed people who think all time don't feel very much at all and, at the very least, have an underdeveloped emotional experience of life. Hence, my observation that most of my professors at university were full of ****. I do not trust the guidance of academics but it doesn't matter whether I trust them or not because I know better. Others still want to revere them and this is very dangerous because we are talking about a segment of society that is seriously messed up.

So this supposed revelation that we are like the bonobos is making people feel we are advancing in some way; when in fact, they are just letting us get back to square one after a period of degeneration past the age of neanderthals. There's a lot more after square one.

I speculate that the neanderthals might have been more advanced than us in some way because they were "feelers" not thinkers. Since we mated with them, I think that some of our best parts might be neanderthal. The neanderthals, I understand, buried their dead and had a sense of things sacred.

[write4change]

It is my understanding from reading much research that while cromagnon man and neanderthals existed together for about 10,000 years, there is no neanderthal DNA contained in homo sapiens today.

I have read this so much that it is now an assumption. In the wake of all the new anthropology we are discoverying, if someone knows differently I wish they would post with a link.

[write4change]

I have serious qualms about having an affair. If an affair is taken to mean a surreptitious tryst, I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it. If I was not content with one person, I would find somebody who was of a similar mindset and be with them rather than betray somebody for whom monogamy is important. On the other hand, if the other person knew and was happy with it, I wouldn't see the slightest bit of harm in it at all. I think for me it just comes down to respecting the other person: if you love them more than you hate monogamy, you've made your decision; if you don't then you can leave them and find somebody of a more appropriate fit. (But sleep with those other people only once you've broken off the relationship).

If you make sure to get the interpersonal integrity and respect for your partner down, what does it come down to? Nuts and bolts thrashing about and no more morality in it than hang-gliding.

For me, the distinction is one of "sure, sleep with whomever you like, just never cheat"

I wonder if there are people reading who might think me terribly dogmatic and dictatorial for saying these things. I hope most people will understand my reasoning even if they disagree. We have to remember just because something might be all right by us, it doesn't mean it will be all right by everybody and "I wouldn't have minded if x had happened to me" is not really a sound argument. I wouldn't particularly get bent out of shape if I woke up with reproductive organs or obscene words drawn/written on my face, it's part of most university experiences, but I wouldn't go around with a big marker pen saying "what's good for me is good for you"

In the book, this issue of cheating is addressed. He talks about the openness of affairs in European countries and he quotes a governor in the states who was outed with a long term affair replying that it was known in his family. There was no secret within the family of the accomodations being made and why. He said to reporters he did not like being outed but in their reporting they should try and also accomodate the truth.

Since I am an old hippy, I will talk about Rober Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land where Michael Valentine the hero from Mars is accused of being promiscuous. And he is shocked, saying he always Groks. This word has now entered intellectual conversation. Valentine says he only has sex with women who he is as deep in their mind as he is in their body. For a woman, I have had many sexual partners and I consider it a form of seeking. And I have always sought to bring that element of being as deep in the mind as in the body. It is a very, very rare and precious experience. The feedback I have gotten from a few man who are very verbal--is that I am very intense and a couple have said I ruined all other women for them because of that intensity. That shook me up as to my responsibilities about being clear about who I am and what I am seeking. One young man went from a molecular biologist to a roman catholic priest. I have always hoped that I was a very small part of that path.

The other example of good sex in the right way for the right reasons is a cult film from the 70s with a still huge following. On Netflex, it has pages and pages of reviews. Many people say I completely believe in monogamy but I love this movie. The story is about Alan Alda and Ellen Burstyn having a 25 year affair once a year while telling their families they are on religious retreat. The irony is that it is exactly what they are on. The name of the film is Same Time, Next Year and if this subject interests you this film is still very funny, filled with pathos, and highly entertaining.

I saw that film with my lover of ten years and my thirteen year old daughter. It was like a gift from the universe and in many ways it explained everything. The plot revolves around the initial happening and how none of this was planned nor understood even by the participants. The plot is moved forward every five years by the changes that occur thru their lives. They start out one way and wind up completely different at the end of their lives. They talk about how this affair has sustained and enriched their marriages although their spouses are not aware of it. Meeting once a year, it is often difficult for them to make the adjustments to the changes they experience but love keeps them together and they talk about loving one another and loving others. They make clear that how they love another is different not better not worse but different.

At the end of the movie Alda's wife has died and he wants Ellen to now marry him. And she tells him if the tables were reversed he would not do it either. She has to keep the committment she has made to her family. He threatens her that if she will not do it, he will stop seeing her and eventually marry another. She still refuses and he slams out the door. Now I had not seen this movie for over 20 years until a year ago. What I had forgotten is that he comes back and says it will be same time next year. And then he tells her, that his wife had told her best friend and that she had known about it for over a decade but never said anthing because she could see this gave him a kind of renewal that was beyond her and she was happy for him. That is love and understanding at its highest form recognized by people who could not imagine otherwise until they saw this movie.

[161803398]

I have read this so much that it is now an assumption. In the wake of all the new anthropology we are discoverying, if someone knows differently I wish they would post with a link.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/291135

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/neandertals/neandertal_dna/1000-genomes-introgression-among-populations-2012.html

[write4change]

I have read this so much that it is now an assumption. In the wake of all the new anthropology we are discoverying, if someone knows differently I wish they would post with a link.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/291135

This is a peer reviewed journal and presented for peer review conference. I read every word of the article twice. The definitive word in the article is "may." It remains too soon to be a scientific fact but it will generate more research--all to the good. As to rather neanderthals were feelers rather than thinkers that also remains speculation and a lot of it is generated from Jean Aurel's books which I have also read and appreciate. It is a form of science fiction I always find thought provoking. None of the clans she discribes are committed to monogamy. All of them are committed to children.

[161803398]

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/neandertals/neandertal_dna/1000-genomes-introgression-among-populations-2012.html

I wasn't thinking of neanderthals in terms of monogamy. Just gave them a mention. I speculate that they, too, were as individual as we are. I don't know anything about Jane Aurel.

[Mad Hatter]

Interesting to note the dirth of input from a male perspective... wonder what thats about..?

[161803398]

http://brainmind.com/SpiritualEvolution.pdf kind of off topic but here it is. Or maybe not totally off topic as I was talking about developed feelings and different parts of the brain.

Well, this guy is talking about them also eating each other so hmmmmm?

[sdv]

From my experience I have developed the following view of monogamy and fidelity: If you make a promise to be 'faithful' to me, it is your choice, your decision and your promise. Don't make me accountable for that. So, if you make such a promise and break it, you have betrayed yourself, not me, and if we have an open loving relationship then I can help you deal with that.

[write4change]

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/neandertals/neandertal_dna/1000-genomes-introgression-among-populations-2012.html

I wasn't thinking of neanderthals in terms of monogamy. Just gave them a mention. I speculate that they, too, were as individual as we are. I don't know anything about Jane Aurel.

Okay, I have now read the other article and took notes. Again the operative words are may and might.

Conclusion of the article, which is directly quoted:

Neanderthals could be more closely related to some Afican populations than others today because Neaderthals actually exchanged genes with some ancient African populations. Or Neanderthals might have sprung from one African poulation among many who lived 250,000 years ago.

As we combine the archaic genome data with our growing pciture of diverse lineages in Africa today, we may discover ancient populations that are not apparent archaeologically. Again, genetics is giving us a totally new picture of the diversity and population dynamics of ancient people.

I found this information interesting and it will expand my data base of thinking. I also consider myself a serious historian and researcher. But at almost 67, I still cannot cut and paste so I had to hand write this and then transpose it to the computer. I did that to answer you coherently. And it is also an exercise in self discipline. New information must be integrated when found before going forward or errors keep propagating.

I am not playing "gotcha" here. On the one hand, you categorically state you dislike and distrust everything I stand for. I have responded to you specifically. I have no idea if I will do so in the future. I have a tragectory of knowledge I will to post on this thread and these detours are not helping. However, it is also part of the process. I would appreciate it if you would cut and paste to the thread what you find relevant to the discussion and not just some link which indicates nothing in itself.

[write4change]

Interesting to note the dirth of input from a male perspective... wonder what thats about..?

This is also addressed in the book. Why we have all this need to control women's sexuality legislatively and politically. Why this became an issue with the catholic church which was the only institution providing answers to these kind of questions for 1500 years. Darwin's theories were the first non catholic response in 1859. The book also discusses what is right and what is wrong about that too.

Having done sexual surragate work and studied sex all my life, nothing is more threatening to most men than a sexually liberated woman who cannot be shamed. They can also be terribly attractive and stars but are disposable if they get out of line: Mae West, Gilda, Marilyn Monroe etc.

[songsfortheotherkind]

My partner is monogamous. I am not. Zhe has no interest in same sex/pansexual relationships. I do. Zhe knew this about me when we got together and is of the personal perspective that our personal choices are just that- personal- and that we have no 'right' or business in trying to get one another to change.

There is, in my perspective, a vast world of difference between partners being open and honest with each other from the outset, or as the relationship progresses- individuals transform and grow, I have known of relationships that have absorbed and transformed the gender changes of one and even both partners, things are not static- and the concept of 'cheating' on a relationship. These are simply not the same thing. Communication and honesty are just two of the things that I deeply value in a relationship; relationships that falter because of 'cheating' have already faltered beforehand, is my experience, from lack of the two qualities mentioned, if not in combination with others.

Commitment is not the territory of monogamy; commitment, in whatever form partners agree such commitment takes, is also prevalent in poly relationships and can even be present in f*ckbuddy arrangements. Commitment, tantric level experiences, honesty, connection, love, affection, caring- these are not the domain of purely monogamous relationships. Multiple sexual relationships are not all 'free love bonobo style' arrangements- in the ones I know, it's entirely the opposite. Has anyone here read The Ethical ****? I found this to be excellent relationship perspective irrespective of whether poly is part of the foundation or not, which is really my experience: what does monogamy have to do with the quality of the connection? It's only relevant for the individuals concerned, the parameters on which their personal relationship was created, it has nothing to do with a rule of thumb.

[write4change]

Songsfor the other kind, that was a most excellent post and I will see if I can obtain the Ethical ++++ from Amazon. Thank you so much. You express beautifully how I have come to terms with my life.

[161803398]

On the one hand, you categorically state you dislike and distrust everything I stand for. Who said that? Sorry but I don't know you personally, so I could not say anything like that.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Songsfor the other kind, that was a most excellent post and I will see if I can obtain the Ethical ++++ from Amazon. Thank you so much. You express beautifully how I have come to terms with my life.

Thank you, I have been greatly enjoying your contributions on this thread also. :) It has been partly my path in growing more accepting and loving towards my Self in how I express relationship that I was led to the concept of Sui Generis; if I cannot accept my Self, how can I truly accept another? That was my take on my personal evolution, anyway, and it has proven to be a wonderful adventure so far.

I am, however, boggled by the removal of the S word. 0-o For those wondering, the word is S-l-*-t, with u being the missing letter.

[write4change]

Metaphysical bonds are formed between people which, when broken, are more traumatic than broken bones, but unseen and easily denied, even to oneself. Unfortunately, we are living in a society that is constantly traumatizing. Its no wonder what is now happening to the world.

I had this idea the other day: everyone has noticed that people don't think well when they are being emotional. My theory is that it works both ways. The parts of the brain that govern emotion and thought are separate. Just as people don't think well when they are feeling emotional; they also don't "feel" well when they are thinking. I have noticed people who think all time don't feel very much at all and, at the very least, have an underdeveloped emotional experience of life. Hence, my observation that most of my professors at university were full of ****. I do not trust the guidance of academics but it doesn't matter whether I trust them or not because I know better. Others still want to revere them and this is very dangerous because we are talking about a segment of society that is seriously messed up.

So this supposed revelation that we are like the bonobos is making people feel we are advancing in some way; when in fact, they are just letting us get back to square one after a period of degeneration past the age of neanderthals. There's a lot more after square one.

I speculate that the neanderthals might have been more advanced than us in some way because they were "feelers" not thinkers. Since we mated with them, I think that some of our best parts might be neanderthal. The neanderthals, I understand, buried their dead and had a sense of things sacred.

I believe you stated that most university professors are full of **** and you do not trust academics. Plus people who think all the time, which I do, don't feel much. A segment of society of society seriously messed up. Those are pretty sweeping and rather insulting generalizations and they all apply to me as I see myself but as you say--you don't know me. This kind of judgment is beyond the pale and stops any kind of progress towards education, much less, enlightenment.

I am not getting angry because that is not what I want to send out to the universe. I am gently and consistently trying to point out to you what you are doing and I am informing you that the game you are playing is not worth doing.

[pharoah21]

I started a thread a few months ago immediately after breaking up with my girlfriend, asking questions about these very issues being discussed. I asked 'what is wrong with cheating' but obviously with the way I worded it, people would not answer the question, and all they would say is "Cheating is wrong! Even the word is bad!".

Let me give you an honest description of who I am and how I felt during the relationship I was in. I am the kind of guy who has quite a feminine energy. Since I was about 14, most of my friends have been females, I get along very easily with them. I'm not gay, but I do have a lot of female friends, due to the fact that I'm so open with people and have a tendency to talk to and comfort emotionally sensitive people (who are usually women, men will rarely admit to this). I've been playing high intensity sports all my life (still only 23), and would definitely say I have high testosterone levels. I love to have high energy fun, with no restrictions, and I love to be physically intimate, so long as the energy and the connection is there.

When I met my girlfriend, I became infatuated with her, and did the whole 'be together forever' thing. At the start, I had no desire for any other woman. I was completely in love, so no one else was needed. After about 10 months or so, I started feeling tempted with other women. Either girls from work, or just girls at clubs/bars were starting to look very attractive to me. I love all kinds of women, tall, short, thick, thin etc(does this make me a womanizer?) and the sex life between me and my partner was starting to feel a little boring/routine.

Anytime I would have thoughts of another woman, I would try DESPERATELY to change them, I wouldn't look at girls on the street, and do anything I could do to protect my mind from them, so as to keep my mind 'clean and pure' for my woman.

The problem was, this type of isolating behavior started to interfere with even the casual female friends I had. I was cutting myself off from the world in order to keep my relationship intact, which was quite extreme, but I loved her too much to let anything bad happen. In the end, the sexual restrictions I placed on myself were what was caused the restriction of sex between my partner and I. I was restricting my mind from enjoying the pleasures of even thinking of sex with another girl (which is something most guys do, most of the time), and because it made my partner so jealous, I wasn't even allowed to say that another woman was beautiful. So eventually, admiring a woman in any way, shape or form, was banned, and I no longer felt the urge to be with my partner.......It's like the sub-conscious mind could not differentiate sex with my partner from sex with a friend. I had taught myself that when something looks tasty, don't even think about it, or it will ruin you! I became very sexually suppressed, which was one of the major factors at the time for me developing depression.

The funny thing was, my love for her never changed, up until the very last day, I would have given my life for her without any hesitation, but the one thought that plagued my mind was: If only I could be more emotionally+sexually free and open, things would be so much better between us! Whether or not this thought would have proven to be true, I'm not sure, but I do think it could have helped. The breakup was definitely a HUGE blessing in disguise for me, but I'm more realistic now about the whole monogamy thing.

Cheating on a partner does not mean you do not love your partner, so I see no reason as to why two people should breakup because of it, and as explained in the video, it's actually more natural for us to be promiscuous biologically speaking. But the foundation for society today is set up on monogamy, so Polygamy is definitely not something that is easily understood or practiced, and not something I really totally feel comfortable with anyway, but the word 'monogamish' is PERFECT! I want monogamy, but if some sexual freedom for me (and her) on the side when the urge is there is what would keep sex between us alive, I see nothing wrong with it. The whole reason people get hurt is due to their idea of relationships, or their perception, the way they are taught what a relationship should be. If you can change the way you see it, maybe it wouldn't be such a problem to have your partner in an affair? Besides, I don't think many of us can claim monogamy is successful in any way other than economically.

Some people are cool working only one job, driving only one car, living in only one house, never leaving their country and having only ever experienced one spouse, I'm definitely not that kind of guy. It's not just about sex for me, it's the emotional intimacy, and the connection that I sometimes crave. Placing a ban on it all, being exclusive, it feels wrong, almost evil to me. I can't tell you how hard it is, to have a close female friend who is going through a tough time, needing emotional support, and considering myself lucky just to be able to tip toe around her, hoping my partner would not be jealous or hurt. The world needs more love, minus the contracts, boundaries and expectations.

Now to win the lottery and find me a nice woman who would be cool with something like this.

[9eagle9]

Well no, if there is a contract or an agreement made towards fidelity I'd expect anyone to honor it--for their own honor and integrity. It is their agreement after all, not made from intimidation, one should expect there is an intention to uphold their own agreements.

In an optimal world one partner would inform the other they felt the need to move on but we know that's seldom possible. It would then seem the 'cheating' partner actually engages in cheating when covertly seeking other trysts, before the actual sex outside the relationship becomes a reality. It's peoples need to re-establish themselves in another relationship before ending the first one that results in things like that, because they are insecure.

The Celts avoided this whole nasty issue of agreement breaking by handfasting. The partners bound themselves together for 3 days-literall-tied at the wrist, and then about a year later the subject of their 'marriage' was examined again. If they couldn't sustain a relationship the knot was cut. If things were agreeable they'd leave the knot alone and re-examine their partnership at regular intervals. During these times both couples were expected to uphold any agreements towards each other, and then if the terms of the relationship were dissolving it was known to both parties that neither were caught in a ugly relationship. When the time came they could separate .Or rather , cheating couldn't become an issue, both couples knew and honored the concept of hand fasting and it's intention.Basicslly a sort of marriage ritual that asks the partners to honor their agreements for a duration of time(s) and then if neccessary dissolve it or re-negotiate it. Or re-affirm it.


I have serious qualms about having an affair. If an affair is taken to mean a surreptitious tryst, I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it. If I was not content with one person, I would find somebody who was of a similar mindset and be with them rather than betray somebody for whom monogamy is important. On the other hand, if the other person knew and was happy with it, I wouldn't see the slightest bit of harm in it at all. I think for me it just comes down to respecting the other person: if you love them more than you hate monogamy, you've made your decision; if you don't then you can leave them and find somebody of a more appropriate fit. (But sleep with those other people only once you've broken off the relationship).

If you make sure to get the interpersonal integrity and respect for your partner down, what does it come down to? Nuts and bolts thrashing about and no more morality in it than hang-gliding.

For me, the distinction is one of "sure, sleep with whomever you like, just never cheat"

I wonder if there are people reading who might think me terribly dogmatic and dictatorial for saying these things. I hope most people will understand my reasoning even if they disagree. We have to remember just because something might be all right by us, it doesn't mean it will be all right by everybody and "I wouldn't have minded if x had happened to me" is not really a sound argument. I wouldn't particularly get bent out of shape if I woke up with reproductive organs or obscene words drawn/written on my face, it's part of most university experiences, but I wouldn't go around with a big marker pen saying "what's good for me is good for you"

[9eagle9]

LOL. That is not a theory its a reality, which has prompted so much drama on this forum. Back in the day before the rush of new age junk religions when one began to step into spiritual journey one is asked to learn how to balance intellect and emotion. If one has too much intellect, I agree, one becomes robotic, and too much emotion one becomes a basket case unable to think critically or respond but to only knee jerk and react.

We learn to get emotions that are self prohibiting or limiting out of the way. People don't know what they are feeling. And often times there as some that should be discussed factually not with a lot of emotiona in it. Like politics, economics things of that nature. You notice in the US our democratic and republican parties cannot discuss issues of a practical nature like economics and health care, without creating an emotional platform for themseves to manipulate the public with. Doesn't matter that there's 5 million kids living in poverty in the US, we have to save the whales or the rights of the pre-concieved child.

Intellect is required as much as much as emotion, because one's higher intelligience is.....intelligient .It''s intellectual. If someone is so emotionally bound up in thier own emo issues they can't process their higher intelligience.

There are bonds of metaphysical nature between people. Some are not healthy and are called attachments. One is emotionally attached to another in a way that isn't love, its self servnig and parasitical. One NEEDS the other person to prop up their self identity and security. What people mistake for love. Low emotion, its dense and sticky.

Real bonds of love seldom cause trauma. It doesn't have conditions put on it.



Metaphysical bonds are formed between people which, when broken, are more traumatic than broken bones, but unseen and easily denied, even to oneself. Unfortunately, we are living in a society that is constantly traumatizing. Its no wonder what is now happening to the world.

I had this idea the other day: everyone has noticed that people don't think well when they are being emotional. My theory is that it works both ways. The parts of the brain that govern emotion and thought are separate. Just as people don't think well when they are feeling emotional; they also don't "feel" well when they are thinking. I have noticed people who think all time don't feel very much at all and, at the very least, have an underdeveloped emotional experience of life. Hence, my observation that most of my professors at university were full of ****. I do not trust the guidance of academics but it doesn't matter whether I trust them or not because I know better. Others still want to revere them and this is very dangerous because we are talking about a segment of society that is seriously messed up.

So this supposed revelation that we are like the bonobos is making people feel we are advancing in some way; when in fact, they are just letting us get back to square one after a period of degeneration past the age of neanderthals. There's a lot more after square one.

I speculate that the neanderthals might have been more advanced than us in some way because they were "feelers" not thinkers. Since we mated with them, I think that some of our best parts might be neanderthal. The neanderthals, I understand, buried their dead and had a sense of things sacred.

[minkton]

I've always believed that monogomy wasnt natural for me, that I could commit and have fidelity to a person, and that commitment and fidelity was in no way broken by my having sexual connections with others.

I really dont believe this any longer. I think I was deluding myself in order to gratify my senses and have adventures and get to know people that I wanted to be with. And all the time I was diluting my attention for my partner and weakening the energy field between us and basically shortchanging myself, him, and anyone else I was involved with.

I'm fine that I did that, but I have decided never to behave that way again. And a new germ has arisen in me which sees monogamy as a sacred contract the alchemy and depth of which is unknowable and unfathomable without entering into the arrangement and living it wholeheartedly.

Dispersal of emotional and sexual attention has it's place, and so does focus. If we dont ever focus and become laser like in that focus, we will never know what we can achieve. I am speaking of a sexual relationship as a tantric spiritual vessel that needs to be sealed and subjected to heat for transformation to take place.

I see it as a very unfashionable pont of view.. the whole unity consciousness movement is about breaking down boundaries and monogamy seems to be restrictive. I just dont see that anymore. I see that true love can be fostered and grow to unknown proportions when the commitment is there, and that distractions of others will be as nothing when the level of commitment and engrossment is deep enough.

So I guess I dont care about what bonobos or other animals do, because my sexuality is as conscious as I canmake it, and always has been. Everything we do should be a choice. A conscious choice. We can witness hormone drives. They dont have to drive us.

So! I feel a bit ass - backwards in this thread, that I'm not lauding sexual freedom as the highest good. I'm a bit 'been there, done that'.. Now I seem to have evolved an ideal,I wasnt expecting to have this point of view, it has just evolved.. it just remains to be seen if I can attract a partner into my life with whom I can live this.

So I guess my point is,if we are on a growth path, our sexual choices reflect where we are at in our personal stages of development, and what we need for our next stage of growth. Anthropology doesnt and cant take into account tantra and alchemy and the connection between sex and spirit, so apology for being a bit tangental to topic..

[aranuk]

Yes ive wondered this...monogomy being unnatural?...

i was in another country (in school with other students) and they were very suprised that we were not all having sex with each other in our camp..it was very natural for them to think in "free sexual" terms.
In an industrial society they NEED men/women workers to stay put to work for the "machine". So "families" and culture will condition everyone to live this way--one family unit-mortgage to keep u in debt/place for all of ur working age.
In AFRICA do u think the government gives a FlyIN Fk where "their" people are or what their doing?, no---they certainly arent grooming them for industry!? So they wander the vast wilderness living, i suppose, closer to the "animal" nature of human.
As a female, i can certainly agree UNEQUIVOCALLY...from what ive witnessed, and sorry fellas!, men do not care to be ONLY with one woman. Its as if men are living against the grain.

Hi Christine, which country was that you visited? I am curious.
Not that I want to book a holiday there.:rolleyes:
Stan

[Kimberley]

While researching this topic I found this short 9 minute interview from one of my favorite interviewers Thom Hartman...

wpN8K-WIIDM

[CD7]

Yes ive wondered this...monogomy being unnatural?...

i was in another country (in school with other students) and they were very suprised that we were not all having sex with each other in our camp..it was very natural for them to think in "free sexual" terms.
In an industrial society they NEED men/women workers to stay put to work for the "machine". So "families" and culture will condition everyone to live this way--one family unit-mortgage to keep u in debt/place for all of ur working age.
In AFRICA do u think the government gives a FlyIN Fk where "their" people are or what their doing?, no---they certainly arent grooming them for industry!? So they wander the vast wilderness living, i suppose, closer to the "animal" nature of human.
As a female, i can certainly agree UNEQUIVOCALLY...from what ive witnessed, and sorry fellas!, men do not care to be ONLY with one woman. Its as if men are living against the grain.

Hi Christine, which country was that you visited? I am curious.
Not that I want to book a holiday there.:rolleyes:
Stan

It was Kenya...i doubt u want to book a holiday with those poor people who wander the wilderness looking for watering holes. Hence my comment soon afterward regarding Africa

[aranuk]

I said not that I want to book a holiday there. Why did you say "I doubt u want to book a holiday etc"? :confused: So it was Kenya? thanks

Stan

[write4change]

I started a thread a few months ago immediately after breaking up with my girlfriend, asking questions about these very issues being discussed. I asked 'what is wrong with cheating' but obviously with the way I worded it, people would not answer the question, and all they would say is "Cheating is wrong! Even the word is bad!".

Let me give you an honest description of who I am and how I felt during the relationship I was in. I am the kind of guy who has quite a feminine energy. Since I was about 14, most of my friends have been females, I get along very easily with them. I'm not gay, but I do have a lot of female friends, due to the fact that I'm so open with people and have a tendency to talk to and comfort emotionally sensitive people (who are usually women, men will rarely admit to this). I've been playing high intensity sports all my life (still only 23), and would definitely say I have high testosterone levels. I love to have high energy fun, with no restrictions, and I love to be physically intimate, so long as the energy and the connection is there.

When I met my girlfriend, I became infatuated with her, and did the whole 'be together forever' thing. At the start, I had no desire for any other woman. I was completely in love, so no one else was needed. After about 10 months or so, I started feeling tempted with other women. Either girls from work, or just girls at clubs/bars were starting to look very attractive to me. I love all kinds of women, tall, short, thick, thin etc(does this make me a womanizer?) and the sex life between me and my partner was starting to feel a little boring/routine.

Anytime I would have thoughts of another woman, I would try DESPERATELY to change them, I wouldn't look at girls on the street, and do anything I could do to protect my mind from them, so as to keep my mind 'clean and pure' for my woman.

The problem was, this type of isolating behavior started to interfere with even the casual female friends I had. I was cutting myself off from the world in order to keep my relationship intact, which was quite extreme, but I loved her too much to let anything bad happen. In the end, the sexual restrictions I placed on myself were what was caused the restriction of sex between my partner and I. I was restricting my mind from enjoying the pleasures of even thinking of sex with another girl (which is something most guys do, most of the time), and because it made my partner so jealous, I wasn't even allowed to say that another woman was beautiful. So eventually, admiring a woman in any way, shape or form, was banned, and I no longer felt the urge to be with my partner.......It's like the sub-conscious mind could not differentiate sex with my partner from sex with a friend. I had taught myself that when something looks tasty, don't even think about it, or it will ruin you! I became very sexually suppressed, which was one of the major factors at the time for me developing depression.

The funny thing was, my love for her never changed, up until the very last day, I would have given my life for her without any hesitation, but the one thought that plagued my mind was: If only I could be more emotionally+sexually free and open, things would be so much better between us! Whether or not this thought would have proven to be true, I'm not sure, but I do think it could have helped. The breakup was definitely a HUGE blessing in disguise for me, but I'm more realistic now about the whole monogamy thing.

Cheating on a partner does not mean you do not love your partner, so I see no reason as to why two people should breakup because of it, and as explained in the video, it's actually more natural for us to be promiscuous biologically speaking. But the foundation for society today is set up on monogamy, so Polygamy is definitely not something that is easily understood or practiced, and not something I really totally feel comfortable with anyway, but the word 'monogamish' is PERFECT! I want monogamy, but if some sexual freedom for me (and her) on the side when the urge is there is what would keep sex between us alive, I see nothing wrong with it. The whole reason people get hurt is due to their idea of relationships, or their perception, the way they are taught what a relationship should be. If you can change the way you see it, maybe it wouldn't be such a problem to have your partner in an affair? Besides, I don't think many of us can claim monogamy is successful in any way other than economically.

Some people are cool working only one job, driving only one car, living in only one house, never leaving their country and having only ever experienced one spouse, I'm definitely not that kind of guy. It's not just about sex for me, it's the emotional intimacy, and the connection that I sometimes crave. Placing a ban on it all, being exclusive, it feels wrong, almost evil to me. I can't tell you how hard it is, to have a close female friend who is going through a tough time, needing emotional support, and considering myself lucky just to be able to tip toe around her, hoping my partner would not be jealous or hurt. The world needs more love, minus the contracts, boundaries and expectations.

Now to win the lottery and find me a nice woman who would be cool with something like this.

Pharoah,

Thank you so much for writing such an open and honest sharing of your viewpoint as a 23 year old male. Your story is almost the evolution of the deterioration of many marriages and that is addressed in the book. He talks about the physical and mental reasons why imposing the repression you under took in love after time for some males feels like a death sentence, and how, physically it often is.

And at 23, making that kind of committment, is often a failure. The number of marriages made very young surviving long term is very low and there are a lot of physical reasons for that--even for women. He reveals extensive studies about how the female makes mate choices based on smells. We now know that the female cannot smell correctly while using birth control pills. So the guy she chooses on birth control pills and then marries, stops the pills for a family, suddenly finds she detests him with no rational reason.

Sex, feelings about it, thinking about it -- all change over time. When I was young and first married, I totally believed in monogamy and rules and society and the catholic church and generally what I was told by authoritarian figures. At 67, I now know they were all wrong. I also know that they were taught wrong just as I was. If we are to evolve those of us who have been through the wringer finding our way have to reach out and give people like you not only permission to find a new way but give them everything we know about every subject so they have a bigger data base to think thru their minds.

Your way is right for you right now. It may change later and may change again. All of that is your right as a sovereign adult. No one has the right to claim sovereignity over your heart mind body and soul but you.

I have been monogamous, permiscuous, monogamous, celebrate, monogamous for years. All in different ways for different reasons at different phases of my life. I am on a cusp now but it is not an urgent issue for me now. I am in a strange space with sexuality unlike any other time in my life. It does not really fit any of those words. For now I am letting it be. If this thread really works well in the right way for the right reasons I may share more, less technically, we shall see.

I could not do this without nearing and we have written about this to each other. Today is her first day on a new job so there has to be a kind of shift feel to this for a while. I am not monopolizing her thread; we are working on this together. We are both very busy in our own lives and would like it to become everyone's thread. I think it may become the woman's salon at the end of the universe, the energy opposite of the pub at the end of the universe. I check it out, laugh some, and move on. It is not my space but it is a space that is needed, like Wade's, like ulli's. I find a need for this space and I hope it evolves freely and in peace.

Again my appreciation for the honesty of your sharing. There is a short video on you tube that says unconditional love is honesty. Thank you, Pharoah.

[aranuk]

My thanks to Kimberley for help in puting my avatar in place. Now there is a face to me. Ugly as it iz.

Stan

[write4change]

I've always believed that monogomy wasnt natural for me, that I could commit and have fidelity to a person, and that commitment and fidelity was in no way broken by my having sexual connections with others.

I really dont believe this any longer. I think I was deluding myself in order to gratify my senses and have adventures and get to know people that I wanted to be with. And all the time I was diluting my attention for my partner and weakening the energy field between us and basically shortchanging myself, him, and anyone else I was involved with.

I'm fine that I did that, but I have decided never to behave that way again. And a new germ has arisen in me which sees monogamy as a sacred contract the alchemy and depth of which is unknowable and unfathomable without entering into the arrangement and living it wholeheartedly.

Dispersal of emotional and sexual attention has it's place, and so does focus. If we dont ever focus and become laser like in that focus, we will never know what we can achieve. I am speaking of a sexual relationship as a tantric spiritual vessel that needs to be sealed and subjected to heat for transformation to take place.

I see it as a very unfashionable pont of view.. the whole unity consciousness movement is about breaking down boundaries and monogamy seems to be restrictive. I just dont see that anymore. I see that true love can be fostered and grow to unknown proportions when the commitment is there, and that distractions of others will be as nothing when the level of commitment and engrossment is deep enough.

So I guess I dont care about what bonobos or other animals do, because my sexuality is as conscious as I canmake it, and always has been. Everything we do should be a choice. A conscious choice. We can witness hormone drives. They dont have to drive us.

So! I feel a bit ass - backwards in this thread, that I'm not lauding sexual freedom as the highest good. I'm a bit 'been there, done that'.. Now I seem to have evolved an ideal,I wasnt expecting to have this point of view, it has just evolved.. it just remains to be seen if I can attract a partner into my life with whom I can live this.

So I guess my point is,if we are on a growth path, our sexual choices reflect where we are at in our personal stages of development, and what we need for our next stage of growth. Anthropology doesnt and cant take into account tantra and alchemy and the connection between sex and spirit, so apology for being a bit tangental to topic..

Minkton, this is a lovely piece you wrote. And just as I think Pharoah is right. I also think you are right. When I read your words, I think you found a soul mate which for you has changed everything. And it does. My husband and I entered into a conscious open marriage but I think it was totally monogamous. ( For future reference, in case I go there, there could be an exception to this but neither my husband nor I considered it so.) I was my husband's third wife and one of the things I loved about him was his total committment to once family, always family. He remained in some ways friends and care giver to both his former wives and I had no objection. In the period of our commuter marriage, he frequently went to dinner with the second. I have never thought about what he might have done, but even now thinking about it -- I doubt he did. I, on the other hand, could have used that out because I was 23 years younger than he, and we spent one week together once a month for years, but I did not. Even though he agreed to it, I knew it would hurt him. Also we had a highly aware daughter and a very instinctive one, at a young age in a Texas envrionment -- it would have been too complex an explanation. It was just much simplier not to. Having had a hysterectomy and being 45, this was a much easier decision than a similar one at 26.

Love is always an evolution of different needs at different times. It is always making choices in the right way for the right reasons. I honor the choices you have made and understand them. Where we differ is that anthropology, or science, can and should make the connection between sex/and or spirit. That is the essence of our problem. Not allowing for what humans have always done as Ryan says in the interview Kimberly put up --- adapt. Thus, your contribution is most important and not tangental at all --- it is the story of your personal adaption.

Thank you for your honesty in sharing and giving me something heartfelt to respond heartfelt to.

[Kimberley]

My thanks to Kimbeley for help in puting my avatar in place. Now there is a face to me. Ugly as it iz.

Stan

My pleasure to help you Stan...I love the glow above your head and the glow of your smile! Much love!! (ugly is a lower vibrating word...)

[kathymarie]

To the OP: AMEN!!!!! Just one woman's opinion...:)

[9eagle9]

I percieve much of the problem to be instead of a relationship that is allowed to develop towards wherever its going to develop --monogamy, committment, ect--or open--is the honesty and expectations of thsoe going into a relationship right from the start. I can't describe how irritating it is for me to say "Well let's just see what developes ,"

And the person I'm relating this to promptly begins to badger me. Okay I've been as honest as I can be, either accept it or not. I can't determine in one week or two months where a relationship is going to go" but be plastered immediately with all sorts of expectations attempting to nail me down in the future, and its all geared not towards monogamy even but ownership. If one is hounding me to be committed in a year I have no idea what to tell them. How would I know, I barely know you.

I have to establish right away that your mine, and I claim ownership over you. instead of allowing something to develop on it's own. One thing that icannot be established for some reason that no one owns me, regardless if they are a lover, boyfriend or husband or family member. My daughter doesn't own me, I don't own her, that is not what I signed on for when I had her.

when are you going to move in with me. When are you going to give up your life and insert it into mine so I have a nice comfortable zone? When are you going to start changing everything about yourself so that I'm not threatened by the fact that you are not immediately gluing yourself to my hip.

considering I'm not done with my dinner on our first date I'm going to have to say that moving is not really crossing my mind at this point. And that you've basically establihed in the present that badgering is going to be part of my future and I can nip that in the bud right away. And the fact that you are badgering someone to make a decision based on YOUR expectations is probably going to end up in a sad wake up call.

Monogamy is one thing, a choice, start the ownership crap someone is going to get injured in some fashion. Injured by their own expecations based on what they think the details of monogamy is. So anxious to establish what is going to happen in six months, one year, or a five that the entire exploration of a future relationship is possible, as its conducted in the now is entirely overlooked.

that sends me a message that they are entirely impatient with me , as a person, in the present and can't wait to get down to the business of changing me more towards what they feel comfortable with. What if I don't want some of the conditions that typically go with monogramy like a shared residence? What if I can't determine that in two months or five years then what? the relationship isn't worth it?
Or do you even know because you have this ideal rattling around your head that you are anxious to mold me into that you're not even seeing me or listening to me.

Do we understand that "Let's see how it goes' doesn't mean NO....or YEs. It means what it means.


I can't know a person in a week, or three or two months enough to make any sort of decision towards any sort of commitment that is expected to last a lifetime. What if it doesn't last a lifetime, relationships tend to be progressive, they run their course. I keep that in mind that what might be fun in week two has prettty much exhausted itself by month three so why not see what happens without building up all these expecatations. Espeically if I'm being badgered to always live outside the present moment .

Ito be honest regardless if monogamy is natural to us or not I tend to be that way even when not in a established relationship , (another way of saying celibate). I do know I could not juggle several relationships at the same time, they would drive me nuts. I would sincerly lose my ****ing mind. I do know that I cannot have several relationship in row because I'm so drained by the expectations of the first one I couldn't muster the energy to seek another and probably accounts for my reluctance to establish ANY sort of relationship right now.

One person drives me nuts, I'm not sure what I'd do with multiples. Kill them I guess.. If someone is unhappy with their life I'm not sure how dragging me into that mix is going to make it happier, it would just make me miserable. Someone who is content in the present is much more enjoyable thans someone who is not and always expecting 'something' to happen instead of just letting it happen.

Can you love someone without determining you're going to be glued at the hip forever????? Commitment isn't just about how long you can stick out with someone, I'm commited to other things in my life I'm not really ready to give up. Those things may interfer with someone's idea of 'committed', I'm commited elsewhere , not neccessarily in a relationship pr another person but in relation to something. what is the time I spend writing is an impediment to someone's expecation? Or the amount of time I'm commited to working with my horses. Or the amount of time I spend daily, weekly in my space, in my solitude that establishes me as a pleasant person to associate with, what if that intefers with these 'ownership issues' or otherwise makes someone uncomfortable. Or my annoyance at being badgered? What then, I should just fling up these commitments and what am I being offered in returned?

What if there is person who could complement commitments because they are similar to one's own, or they are similarly commited to their lives and understand I'm a person, who is worth something regardless that she is cautious to commit because after all its only the rest of my life you are expecting from me and I'm sorry to say , perhaps you're not offering, enough to fill in the blanks of the next forty years or so. Or that I'm not a baby sitter or a surrogate mother. Sex is not all about life, for people who make sex 'everything' they must have a ****ty existence espeically if they have a lack of partners. What if people treat sex as if it's some tacit message of commitment? What if love could exist without sex at all or sex wasn't an issue in establishing a commitment. Is it possible that you could love someone but understand that a commitment and co habitation isn't really ideal? these are things I attempt to establish from the get go and they go in one ear and out the other , as they busily translated everything I'm saying into what they want to hear. Or if they do hear suggest somethign is wrong with my ability to commit? To what? A person I barely know!!!???

Expecations. how many times am I approached by very good looking men who have nothing elss about them and they expect I should be straining at the leash to get to them. Why? Looks are not ultimate importance to a person who puts things in perspective as they do sex.. If I wanted sex to be my whole life I'd be a prostitute!!

Or physically unappealing men who have dull, vapid personalities and are essentially illiterate but somehow think I should just love them on sight beause.......because.....because.....why? Their nice.

Oh gee, well I'm not nice so I'm thinking perhaps this expecation is going to go south soon. It's my life and I'm not supposed to have any say in the matter because someone has developed an expectation?

Or people who don't 'get it' when I say I can't co habitate with you because I'd drive you nuts, I'm not a housekeeper, I don't care about the curtains, I pick and choose what I care about on the domestic front . They don't care, because....they have it in their head somethign is going to change. Get the wand out.

I've had men ask me out , no strings attached, no expecation of sex just hang out out you know. And then spent the evenign with them as they pursued other women. Okay my expectation is no strings attached evening of companionship not to play chaperon as one pursues girlfriends. Is this unreasonable of me. They sure thought it was. So I would leave the date earlier and they'd be pissed, and I'm thinking , DUDE if you want to pick up women do you know how severly my presence is impeding you? Granted there are women who like the idea of stealign someones date but most women find it weird to be hit on when the guy has a date present. Do you understand what I'm attempting to convey here?

Weirdness either way open or closed.

[Kimberley]

I thank all that are sharing from their heart here on this thread! IMHO this is a topic of the utmost importance. Love is the highest vibrating energy and all of our co-creation is up to us.

Sex is not always connected to love...although I am pretty sure that love has been connected to sex for most of us.

W4C I am so moved by what you have shared with us...especial your vet experience...is there some place on the web that could tell me more about the services you were involved in? I am gratefully amazed about knowing of these services.!

W4C in one of your posts you used the word "promiscuous"


1. characterized by or involving indiscriminate mingling or association, especially having sexual relations with a number of partners on a casual basis.
2. consisting of parts, elements, or individuals of different kinds brought together without order.
3. indiscriminate; without discrimination.
4. casual; irregular; haphazard.

There is a judgmental vibration to that word. I ascribe to not be judgmental with me or anything (to the best of my ability).

I am adding to this discussion that part of the equation is about judgment...self judgment and judgment of others.

As I have already noted. I have had many intimate relationships and I have stated that I am sovereign and free to love all and chose in whatever way shape or form I chose to love someone. I love my daughters, I love the father of my daughters, I love my many internet friends, and I love many "in my physical space" friends, in various ways shapes and forms.

I am pro choice for EVERYTHING!!! What works for you may not be "right" for me and vis versa. I also want to add that I to the best of my ability have eliminated the word should from my vocabulary. There are no should's(and we need to remember who/where did the should come from?. There is I want to and I do not want to. No should's.

What I am trying to say is follow your heart..do what serves you...know love is what it is all about...And please judge not others or yourself!

Yet again I add this profound quote from Annalee Skarin (about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annalee_Skarin)



And now my beloved I will give again the sacred keys on which the forgiveness of your sin is based. Forgive and you shall be forgiven. Those who can not forgive can not be forgiven. The very core of being forgiven is contained in the ability to forgive. Those who carry their grudges and hates and spirit of retaliation with them are carrying a burden of such deep darkness. They become acutely clothed in the darkness of their own dislikes. And so I speak gently these words for all have sinned. Your own great release will come when you can forgive. If you can not forgive you are carrying upon your shoulders your neighbors, your brothers failures and transgressions and you are also carrying the burden of your own sins, weaknesses, innumerable errors, and mistakes . When I commanded you to judge not lest you be judged, I was revealing the great eternal law by which you would escape the great judgment.

SO please DO DO what feels right for you!!! And remember that there really is NO right or wrong and all is in perfect order...

As of NOW for those of us that KNOW we are creators of our reality, we get to chose in each moment and create in each moment our NOW. And by creating our NOW we create the next NOW!!!

Thank you one and all for the rolls you have agreed to play in this game!! Thank you for being who you are! Thank you for remembering to Judge not !!!

Much love to us all..always and in all ways!! :grouphug:

[161803398]

I wasn't talking about "conditions". I was talking about bonds. I'm not sure what you are saying. There are bonds between people which, when broken, can cause trauma to the person. I don't believe I am saying anything extraordinary in this.

[9eagle9]

:pActually I'm sharing from a state of annoyance but I tried to make it heartfelt annoyance.


I thank all that are sharing from their heart here on this thread! IMHO this is a topic of the utmost importance. Love is the highest vibrating energy and all of our co-creation is up to us.

Sex is not always connected to love...although I am pretty sure that love has been connected to sex for most of us.

W4C I am so moved by what you have shared with us...especial your vet experience...is there some place on the web that could tell me more about the services you were involved in? I am gratefully amazed about knowing of these services.!

W4C in one of your posts you used the word "promiscuous"


1. characterized by or involving indiscriminate mingling or association, especially having sexual relations with a number of partners on a casual basis.
2. consisting of parts, elements, or individuals of different kinds brought together without order.
3. indiscriminate; without discrimination.
4. casual; irregular; haphazard.

There is a judgmental vibration to that word. I ascribe to not be judgmental with me or anything (to the best of my ability).

I am adding to this discussion that part of the equation is about judgment...self judgment and judgment of others.

As I have already noted. I have had many intimate relationships and I have stated that I am sovereign and free to love all and chose in whatever way shape or form I chose to love someone. I love my daughters, I love the father of my daughters, I love my many internet friends, and I love many "in my physical space" friends, in various ways shapes and forms.

I am pro choice for EVERYTHING!!! What works for you may not be "right" for me and vis versa. I also want to add that I to the best of my ability have eliminated the word should from my vocabulary. There are no should's(and we need to remember who/where did the should come from?. There is I want to and I do not want to. No should's.

What I am trying to say is follow your heart..do what serves you...know love is what it is all about...And please judge not others or yourself!

Yet again I add this profound quote from Annalee Skarin (about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annalee_Skarin)



And now my beloved I will give again the sacred keys on which the forgiveness of your sin is based. Forgive and you shall be forgiven. Those who can not forgive can not be forgiven. The very core of being forgiven is contained in the ability to forgive. Those who carry their grudges and hates and spirit of retaliation with them are carrying a burden of such deep darkness. They become acutely clothed in the darkness of their own dislikes. And so I speak gently these words for all have sinned. Your own great release will come when you can forgive. If you can not forgive you are carrying upon your shoulders your neighbors, your brothers failures and transgressions and you are also carrying the burden of your own sins, weaknesses, innumerable errors, and mistakes . When I commanded you to judge not lest you be judged, I was revealing the great eternal law by which you would escape the great judgment.

SO please DO DO what feels right for you!!! And remember that there really is NO right or wrong and all is in perfect order...

As of NOW for those of us that KNOW we are creators of our reality, we get to chose in each moment and create in each moment our NOW. And by creating our NOW we create the next NOW!!!

Thank you one and all for the rolls you have agreed to play in this game!! Thank you for being who you are! Thank you for remembering to Judge not !!!

Much love to us all..always and in all ways!! :grouphug:

[songsfortheotherkind]

[QUOTE=minkton;451643]
Where we differ is that anthropology, or science, can and should make the connection between sex/and or spirit. That is the essence of our problem. Not allowing for what humans have always done as Ryan says in the interview Kimberly put up --- adapt. Thus, your contribution is most important and not tangental at all --- it is the story of your personal adaption.

This is where I see the new languages emerging, ones that do not delineate or separate the elements in the way that modern science has forged; ancient sciences, such as acupuncture, were able to hold all the elements in play simultaneously, creating a foundation of perspective and experience that embraced rather than exiled. I see this as one of those embracing processes, learning to craft a language in which the many experiences of singularity can be held simultaneously in the space. It is science and Art, co-creation without load, agenda or judgement, different angles of perception and experience of the same hologram- currently our language is insufficient to describe the complexity and richness of the evolution of Being we're being invited to undergo. Communication and exploration of the new territories are the means by which the new languages are discovered, created.

I personally find it beautiful. :)

[9eagle9]

Some bonds are not bonds they are attachments composed of pre-existing conditions. They are not true bonds of love but of neediness or co-dependency, low form emotions that are often confused by love . Until one does some very deep clearing one doesn't know how to tell the difference. If a person is looking for another to validate them that is a low form attachment. An attachment based on insecurity and lack of self love, not extending one's love of self out to others, which may or may not result in sex depending. The bonds that cause trauma tend to be unhealthy low form bonds. Suddenly you don't have a person there to validate your existence or self idenity and not having one of your own you are lost, traumatized. Many MANY people go into relationships to establish an identity for themselves .

Healthier relationships can end without trauma when both parites have healthy bonds, the bond doesn't end after the relationship ends, it simply takes on a different nature. You would see that in partners that still remain close, as W4C described earlier up thread, even after their established commited relationship ended, it evolved into something else. That shows the relationshihp was based in a healthy bond, not a unhealthy attachment.




I wasn't talking about "conditions". I was talking about bonds. I'm not sure what you are saying. There are bonds between people which, when broken, can cause trauma to the person. I don't believe I am saying anything extraordinary in this.

[Kimberley]

I also want to add... how often in relationship have you heard "you hurt me"? Well I am here to remind us that yes you can punch someone in the nose and hurt them physically, however when some one calls you an a** hole you can chose to feel hurt or to not feel hurt. If you know you are not an a** hole you can laugh it off and realize that the person calling you an a** hole has something going on with them. In other words you have the choice to not take it personally.

One of the books I recommend over and over is "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Riuz.




The Four Agreements can be summed up as follows:

(1) Be Impeccable With Your Word. The broad scope of this concept is to avoid sin against yourself by what you think. Sinning against the self takes many forms: such as, putting yourself down, gossiping, or putting anybody else down because you don't agree with what they think. Actions and words need to be consistent as part of being impeccable with yourself. The other side of the coin is the smoky mirror concept. Ruiz makes the point that our perceptions of others are merely reflections of ourselves. Therefore, to put another down or project negative words or energy towards another person, is to lash out at the other person because of our own insecurities.

(2) Don't Take Anything Personally. There is an awful lot of negative energy out there and some of it is directed at us by other people. If you take it personally and take on the poison of another's words, it becomes a very negative agreement you have with yourself. What anybody thinks about you, or says about you, is really about them. Not taking it personally allows you to be in relationship with anyone and not get trapped in their stuff. This agreement can also pertain to things that we take personally that cause us to go into upset.

(3) Don't Make Assumptions. What we think we understand about what someone says, how someone looks at us, what someone means by what they do, etc, may often not reflect reality at all, and more often than not lead us to think badly of ourselves or of others, and reinforce not being impeccable with our word.

(4) Always Do Your Best. Your "best" is a variable thing from moment to moment. "When you do your best, you don't give the Judge the opportunity to find you guilty or to blame you.” You can always say, “I did my best." There are no regrets. (p.80) The other key to doing your best revolves about being in action. "Action is about living fully. Inaction is the way that we deny life. Inaction is sitting in front of the television every day for years because you are afraid to be alive and to take the risk of expressing what you are. Expressing what you are is taking action. You can have many great ideas in your head, but what makes the difference is the action. Without action upon an idea, there will be no manifestation, no results, and no reward." (p.8

And there is a fifth agreement:


In a nutshell, The Fifth Agreement is what don Miguel would often tell us, "Don't believe me, don't believe others, don't believe yourself.

Love and dream well!!
Much love :grouphug:

[write4change]

I would like some one to put up the You Tube Video of 4:53 Change is the Prelude to Growth, Those who are reading this thread and really want to stay that way could contribute by technically assisting me in things I cannot do. Then this does not become a trust issue for me. Who can I ask to do this and why etc.

I have done some seriusly mulling since my last post. Sunday I made a decision to not do something that had big potential to make me famous or infamous and I decided that it would be no help in getting the real work done. Today I got so engrossed in all this, I forgot to move my car and got a $68 parking ticket. All things like this I ask is the universe opening to me or shutting windows on me.

This is the subject of my life and heart. In a way this is a gift as it allows me feedback that I would get no other way. Ryan's partner will not go on publicity tours because of her Indian background and the fact she still want to practice anonymously. There are many reasons for them to live in Barcelona, Spain. They could not do this work in the climate of the US right now. If I publish it will be in England. Ryan is going to science and saying we need to adapt. I am into learning to love thru many lifetimes and how I came to the sacred of it.

I used to talk to eagle and I have a great need and desire to do so but I am self disciplining myself to denying that because I have not completed my word to her. It bothers me but it is the way it is. I have written her here rather than a pm because pulling my cover shows how much I care about this issue. The problems I am dealing with are so complex they need to play out and little more and writing her about the details is more difficult then doing this. There will come a time I can do both.

Kimberly, I have never considered myself promiscuous , but as songsforanotherkind states words can be difficult. I did not use the word prostitute which some people had no trouble using. This whole issue was played out in Boston Legal with a sexual surrogate that had an on going role for some time. That is one group of DVDs I have to have eventually. I love Shatner and Spade getting married at the end in the right way for the right reasons---I believe the show strongly indicated it had nothing to do with sex but sex was always the topic of interest. One of the points of the book, humans spend more time and money on sex than just about anything else and your biggest corporations all have a piece of the sex industry. It is the one industry of America that we use and promote but never admit having.

Thus, I have learned to accept labels from people rather than argue or parse them. As Clinton said it depends on what is means. LOL Like ulli, I have the ability to monitor this thread. I don't claim it but we have lots of camping places on Avalon now--a place for everyone and space to create more camps. People should move around the various camp fires and enjoy them. If one camp is not for you, you still don't have the right to put out their fire. We are not going to argue here or nit pick. We are going to share and explore. And we are going to do it with grace, charm, and humor. Even the powers that be will have to conform to being good here because I am at the place in my life to be able to stand my ground on these issues.

[nearing]

Here you go.
tvLyJqywAQ4

I am so glad this thread has continued ahead without me. Today was my first day of work and A little stressful, need to leave early agin tonight - have to get my sleep.

This discussion is so important especially given the political climate and anti-woman legislation across the country.

Thom Harmann was a great addition!

[songsfortheotherkind]

we have lots of camping places on Avalon now--a place for everyone and space to create more camps. People should move around the various camp fires and enjoy them. If one camp is not for you, you still don't have the right to put out their fire. We are not going to argue here or nit pick. We are going to share and explore. And we are going to do it with grace, charm, and humor. Even the powers that be will have to conform to being good here because I am at the place in my life to be able to stand my ground on these issues.

I love campfires! *breaks out the vegan marshmallows, decorates a stick with about 20 of them and looks over the fire, grinning* anybody else want one?

I cannot reply to the other elements of your post, as I am not privy to the challenges you're currently facing: if I may I would like to offer that it has been my experience that I am abundantly supplied with whatever it's going to take to get any job done, even if I can't in the moment remember in which of my ten thousand pockets I left that particular skill or quality in. I eventually discover what I'm looking for and things sail on gloriously until I need something in another pocket- which I may or may not remember the location of... :)

[161803398]

Some bonds are not bonds they are attachments composed of pre-existing conditions. They are not true bonds of love but of neediness or co-dependency, low form emotions that are often confused by love .


ah, I wasn't referring to those bonds. But you are right, there are negative bonds that can form between people and negative attachments. I wasn't referring to those types of bonds.

[Rantaak]

Some people find sex with consenting adults, unnatural. They look for other outlets.
Some people find sobriety unnatural. They like drugs.
Others find the whole world unnatural. They like killing.
It's just there nature right?
Just because it's our nature doesn't make it right. :)

Some people find freedom unnatural. They like to tell other people what's "right". On planet earth, we have masturbation police. :usa2:

But more poignantly, sobriety is drugs. Consciousness is directly linked to the chemical phenomena undergone by the brain - with the higher self as the piloting guide and ultimate author. Natural (endogenous) drugs are natural. Unnatural (synthetic) drugs aren't, unless they metabolize into an endogenous compound.

Killing is an impulse driven by lower chakras - the advancement of spirituality allows us to overcome these baser desires.

Only in a world of duality do we believe in such nonsense as, "right and wrong." These are figments of the brain.

In a world of unity, everything is. :smokin:

[write4change]

I am posting this at write4change's request and she will fill you in on the background of it.

gL9l1L_pzOE

I have just started using the reply with quote so I do not know if the embedded video shows up. It does not here. So this is responding to nearings post 85 for me.

Except for one year of the Soka Gaiki that took over Nichren Shoshoo Buddhism, I have never done institutionalized Buddhism. I have never had a guru either. I started studying in 1971. I am not going to cite a lot of texts, I am going to explain my take on Tantra and how it has evolved. I have no problem with any one disagreeing, wanting to add commentary etc. For the record there are 365 sects of Buddhism in the world that meet annually for the last 30 years trying to come up with a Buddhism in a nutshell to no avail. However, they do this in peace and a high tolerance for one another. The Soka Gakai does not participate and has about 13 million members world wide, claiming about a million in America.

Tantra appeared about 500 years after the Buddha died. Buddhism was already fading in India. The reason being was that the Buddha delegimatized the caste system. Indian society was already too entrenched and too comfortable with the caste system of Hinduism to seriously convert. They incorporated Buddhism for a while. Meanwhile Buddhism itself had become another institution with hierarchies and written rules and regulations, disputes over lineages, etc.

Tantra was essentially a grass roots movement of the people to find a third way. And people being people, they wanted an easy way. The Shamanic models in India had long been lost and replaced by gurus and institutions. In Terrence McKenna's personal interviews he tells how he started out seeking in India and praciticing yoga etc. to no avail. In his pursuits which he began after considerable experience with hallucinogens and LSD in this country, he became aware that there were no natural plant hallucinogens in Asia or India. Opium was more a depressent. Looking with this aside, it is even easier for me to see why the populace would eventually find out sex could pop you out of your body etc. Also as McKenna points out the nature of the East has always to go down and they have studied time in all its ramifications instead of energy. Their food problems were never based on fertility or energy but water. Both too much and too little. Thus, all life was seen through a cycle of time, birth, death, and reincarnation.

Realizing that sex produced a lot of energy and set the body vibrating like nothing else, they began to study how this energy functioned, how it could be increased, sustained, and utilized. The first thing to emerge was that the individual body was the temple of the individual soul and thus the body should be cared for and not deprived. Now the people who have the time and the ability to study, observe, and record are always the elite. In India, with its caste system the Brahmin on a whole are the only ones with all the where withall to do this. While there was already in place the concept of consorts and concubines--sex for purchase did not produce soul jumping orgasms. Brahmin wives had a lot on their plates and this was not big on their list of things to do and they were relatively equal.

The concept of consorts and sacred sex in religious festivals already existed and it was already recognized that every day sex with a spouse carried a lot of every day baggage. Being up all night with a sick kid and being chewed out by the Raj could leave your partner simply not in the mood much like today. But finding vavavoom in a one night stand religious or not was still a crap shoot. The answer was a spiritual consort with whom you had sex consistently with spiritual goals in a pleasure room that was open to the sky and isolated from the mundane. Thus, the goal became not orgasm but energy used to get out of the body or kept in the body for energy for creative inspiration in various art forms etc. Thus, old yoga practices were now used to have sex in difficult positions which increased muscle contractions everywhere and multiplied the power of ultimate orgasm if chosen. And techniques were worked out to have orgasms and not ejaculate and using multiple orgasms to build more energy. Going thru the charkas until the whole body in all ways is an erongenous zone. Finally, you get to the brain orgasm and maybe sex on the astral plane. This kind of sex is an art form and like any kind of art with the physical body like ballet and gymnastics takes lots of practice and understanding who you are.

Like a hallucogen, brain orgasm explodes your concepts of reality on this plane. As time passed, these studies added more ritualization about exactly how this could be accomplished with 64 positions, 64 art forms of music, painting, poetry, etc. Preparation of time and space. Preparation of the body etc. But the good news was----periodically it would be reported that some one got there instantly and for no known reason other than love. India was big on sex and marriage and duty and contracts like every one else. But love was rare and inexplicable and inspite of many wives, consorts, and concubines a miracle--deserving of the Taj Mahal. A love that appeared whole, complete, and eternal.

Tantra looks at and acknowledges all the ranges of sex. Like many other things of desire---many are called but few will do the work necessary to ascend the ladder of sex. All of us hope for the miracle.
It is neither bad nor good. It just is. All of India, her sacred places and temples reflect a culture that celebrated the most beautiful aspect of being human--the power of the heart. They were willing to try many things to jump start their hearts. All of that was really destroyed by the West. Look at these pictures and see how you react.

[Seikou-Kishi]

It is my understanding from reading much research that while cromagnon man and neanderthals existed together for about 10,000 years, there is no neanderthal DNA contained in homo sapiens today.

I have read this so much that it is now an assumption. In the wake of all the new anthropology we are discoverying, if someone knows differently I wish they would post with a link.

Hi W4C there's a little information here (http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/814/humans-and-neanderthals-interbred?page=4). It refers to the Neanderthals as having become 'extinct through absorption'. I would argue that any species that produces children and passes on its genes has not died out, and that absorption into a dominant culture is a survival mechanism rather than an admission of defeat, but I guess that's just semantics.

I once read a long time ago a publication suggesting red hair originated in neanderthal DNA, which I think was more prejudice against redheads than anything else. The genes which encode for red hair in humans are different than those which encoded for it in Neanderthals (who are known to have been predominantly red-headed), so the mechanism by which humans acquired red hair can't have come from neanderthals, but it does show that the possibility of cro-magnon–neanderthal interbreeding has enjoyed higher levels of acceptability at different times.

[write4change]

Seikou-Kishi,

I have not read your link but I will. There are a couple of links about Neanderthals above and the lastest research on it. I like you would not consider absorption a failure. What I have read and seen on some of these major documentaries---the one I remember doing the gnome project as a geological search. How did and when did humans march out to Africa and across the world etc.

What was interesting to me was their absolute certainty that neither blue eyes nor white skinned people existed ever until 10,000 years ago and that they first recording and the descendants of those people are from the Caucasion mountain area. Then the Chinese discovered a whole village of red haired blue eyed people outside Tibet and kind of put a kaboosh to more exploration. The explanation of white people becoming white to live in the cold never did impress me much. All of this constantly shows me how much we don't know. How much we don't like to change what we think we know. And how much a lot of stuff has been deliberately repressed.

In my humble opinion blue eyes not appearing til then thousand years ago and they definitely have no evolutionary advantage in seeing. In fact, they are subject to a lot more diseases etc than brown eyes--makes me for me another solid piece of evidence of ET contact with humans. After Starman came out in the early 80s, it was said many women secretly wish to have sex with an ET. For me it is no secret, I would be like sign me up. LOL My tantric experience tells me it is one way to really "know" another. The biblical term she knew no man etc. indicates this thinking has been around a long time. Probably one of the reasons insecure men want virgins---what you don't know for sure you don't miss.

[Arrowwind]

I think the PTB started the whole free love thing in the 60s..

So someone recently said, here on this forum I think, that Gloria Steinem was paid by the CIA to do the work she did, that she mentions this in one of her books.
If that is true it could potentially point to our beloved government forcing a social agenda, where women must work, and hence pay more taxes, and hence loose time and power to the economic system, and hence their children become greater wards of the state programming. Most women now do not work because the want to, but because financially the must. No choice.

[Arrowwind]

[QUOTE=nearing;451424]I am posting this at write4change's request and she will fill you in on the background of it.

gL9l1L_pzOE

The real fact of the matter, according to my understanding, is that Tantra in India was reserved for well do to men who could afford concubines and those concubines did not get to have marriage also.

Women were not permitted any sexual activity outside of marriage. God forbid if you were or even still are seen holding hands with a man in traditional India. before marriage. You could loose your eligibility to marry and hence survive. Remember, this is the land of bride buring.

I suspect that those tantric materials that discuss women in sex were based on sex slaves, not natural, healthy and emotionally balanced women with free choice.

[Kimberley]

I love this thread so bumping it.... I have more to add although I have not had time to add it... I played the audio of the video in the original post of this thread on my internet show today. It was a great show and I had a 35 year old male call in who had read the Sex Before Dawn book and was suggesting the book to all his friends...and he was very savey and aware about this topic.

Much love!

[minkton]

[QUOTE=write4change;452130][QUOTE=nearing;451424]


I suspect that those tantric materials that discuss women in sex were based on sex slaves, not natural, healthy and emotionally balanced women with free choice.





Horribly true. young women have been endlessly exploited sexually as a 'yin tonic'.. ie their abundant fertile energy has been drawn from them to boost older men. Euuuurgggh.

[HORIZONS]

I am posting this at write4change's request and she will fill you in on the background of it.

gL9l1L_pzOE

I have just started using the reply with quote so I do not know if the embedded video shows up. It does not here. So this is responding to nearings post 85 for me.

Except for one year of the Soka Gaiki that took over Nichren Shoshoo Buddhism, I have never done institutionalized Buddhism. I have never had a guru either. I started studying in 1971. I am not going to cite a lot of texts, I am going to explain my take on Tantra and how it has evolved. I have no problem with any one disagreeing, wanting to add commentary etc. For the record there are 365 sects of Buddhism in the world that meet annually for the last 30 years trying to come up with a Buddhism in a nutshell to no avail. However, they do this in peace and a high tolerance for one another. The Soka Gakai does not participate and has about 13 million members world wide, claiming about a million in America.

Tantra appeared about 500 years after the Buddha died. Buddhism was already fading in India. The reason being was that the Buddha delegimatized the caste system. Indian society was already too entrenched and too comfortable with the caste system of Hinduism to seriously convert. They incorporated Buddhism for a while. Meanwhile Buddhism itself had become another institution with hierarchies and written rules and regulations, disputes over lineages, etc.

Tantra was essentially a grass roots movement of the people to find a third way. And people being people, they wanted an easy way. The Shamanic models in India had long been lost and replaced by gurus and institutions. In Terrence McKenna's personal interviews he tells how he started out seeking in India and praciticing yoga etc. to no avail. In his pursuits which he began after considerable experience with hallucinogens and LSD in this country, he became aware that there were no natural plant hallucinogens in Asia or India. Opium was more a depressent. Looking with this aside, it is even easier for me to see why the populace would eventually find out sex could pop you out of your body etc. Also as McKenna points out the nature of the East has always to go down and they have studied time in all its ramifications instead of energy. Their food problems were never based on fertility or energy but water. Both too much and too little. Thus, all life was seen through a cycle of time, birth, death, and reincarnation.

Realizing that sex produced a lot of energy and set the body vibrating like nothing else, they began to study how this energy functioned, how it could be increased, sustained, and utilized. The first thing to emerge was that the individual body was the temple of the individual soul and thus the body should be cared for and not deprived. Now the people who have the time and the ability to study, observe, and record are always the elite. In India, with its caste system the Brahmin on a whole are the only ones with all the where withall to do this. While there was already in place the concept of consorts and concubines--sex for purchase did not produce soul jumping orgasms. Brahmin wives had a lot on their plates and this was not big on their list of things to do and they were relatively equal.

The concept of consorts and sacred sex in religious festivals already existed and it was already recognized that every day sex with a spouse carried a lot of every day baggage. Being up all night with a sick kid and being chewed out by the Raj could leave your partner simply not in the mood much like today. But finding vavavoom in a one night stand religious or not was still a crap shoot. The answer was a spiritual consort with whom you had sex consistently with spiritual goals in a pleasure room that was open to the sky and isolated from the mundane. Thus, the goal became not orgasm but energy used to get out of the body or kept in the body for energy for creative inspiration in various art forms etc. Thus, old yoga practices were now used to have sex in difficult positions which increased muscle contractions everywhere and multiplied the power of ultimate orgasm if chosen. And techniques were worked out to have orgasms and not ejaculate and using multiple orgasms to build more energy. Going thru the charkas until the whole body in all ways is an erongenous zone. Finally, you get to the brain orgasm and maybe sex on the astral plane. This kind of sex is an art form and like any kind of art with the physical body like ballet and gymnastics takes lots of practice and understanding who you are.

Like a hallucogen, brain orgasm explodes your concepts of reality on this plane. As time passed, these studies added more ritualization about exactly how this could be accomplished with 64 positions, 64 art forms of music, painting, poetry, etc. Preparation of time and space. Preparation of the body etc. But the good news was----periodically it would be reported that some one got there instantly and for no known reason other than love. India was big on sex and marriage and duty and contracts like every one else. But love was rare and inexplicable and inspite of many wives, consorts, and concubines a miracle--deserving of the Taj Mahal. A love that appeared whole, complete, and eternal.

Tantra looks at and acknowledges all the ranges of sex. Like many other things of desire---many are called but few will do the work necessary to ascend the ladder of sex. All of us hope for the miracle.
It is neither bad nor good. It just is. All of India, her sacred places and temples reflect a culture that celebrated the most beautiful aspect of being human--the power of the heart. They were willing to try many things to jump start their hearts. All of that was really destroyed by the West. Look at these pictures and see how you react.

This interview that I posted on my thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?42674-The-Essence-of-Tantric-Sexuality) on Tantric sex by Margot Anand fits into this discussion here on Tantra (which is greatly misunderstood). http://webtalkradio.net/Shows/SexAndHappiness/sah030512.mp3

[Kimberley]

This interview that I posted on my thread on Tantric sex by Margot Anand fits into this discussion here on Tantra (which is greatly misunderstood). http://webtalkradio.net/Shows/SexAnd.../sah030512.mp3

I am looking forward to looking at this!! Thank you Horizon!!! and ALL!!! Much love!!

[Seikou-Kishi]

Seikou-Kishi,

I have not read your link but I will. There are a couple of links about Neanderthals above and the lastest research on it. I like you would not consider absorption a failure. What I have read and seen on some of these major documentaries---the one I remember doing the gnome project as a geological search. How did and when did humans march out to Africa and across the world etc.

What was interesting to me was their absolute certainty that neither blue eyes nor white skinned people existed ever until 10,000 years ago and that they first recording and the descendants of those people are from the Caucasion mountain area. Then the Chinese discovered a whole village of red haired blue eyed people outside Tibet and kind of put a kaboosh to more exploration. The explanation of white people becoming white to live in the cold never did impress me much. All of this constantly shows me how much we don't know. How much we don't like to change what we think we know. And how much a lot of stuff has been deliberately repressed.

In my humble opinion blue eyes not appearing til then thousand years ago and they definitely have no evolutionary advantage in seeing. In fact, they are subject to a lot more diseases etc than brown eyes--makes me for me another solid piece of evidence of ET contact with humans. After Starman came out in the early 80s, it was said many women secretly wish to have sex with an ET. For me it is no secret, I would be like sign me up. LOL My tantric experience tells me it is one way to really "know" another. The biblical term she knew no man etc. indicates this thinking has been around a long time. Probably one of the reasons insecure men want virgins---what you don't know for sure you don't miss.

While its true that low-melanin eyes (predominantly blue, grey and my green) are more prone to certain diseases than others, it's also the case that the high-melanin brown eyes are also more prone to other diseases to which low-melanin eyes are not prone – cataracts being a prominent example.

[Solstyse]

Some people find sex with consenting adults, unnatural. They look for other outlets.
Some people find sobriety unnatural. They like drugs.
Others find the whole world unnatural. They like killing.
It's just there nature right?
Just because it's our nature doesn't make it right. :)

Some people find freedom unnatural. They like to tell other people what's "right". On planet earth, we have masturbation police. :usa2:

But more poignantly, sobriety is drugs. Consciousness is directly linked to the chemical phenomena undergone by the brain - with the higher self as the piloting guide and ultimate author. Natural (endogenous) drugs are natural. Unnatural (synthetic) drugs aren't, unless they metabolize into an endogenous compound.

Killing is an impulse driven by lower chakras - the advancement of spirituality allows us to overcome these baser desires.

Only in a world of duality do we believe in such nonsense as, "right and wrong." These are figments of the brain.

In a world of unity, everything is. :smokin:

You are making things way more complicated then they need to be.
There is universal right and wrong. And accountability for ones actions is paramount.

You live in this world of duality if you don't like it then ascend already :)

And as far as me I refuse to be unified with a serial rapist or murder or well I can't get too deep into it, people get there feelings hurt :)

[write4change]

Tuesday and Thursday are for me doctor days. When I got home and read this thread I was very disappointed and I went to bed and fell asleep listening to the above radio program.

When I got up, I found the nicest PM from someone I had never run into before. And I was revived. It put me back in touch with the heart congruence feeling.

I listen to Graham Hancock a lot because not only to I admire his work. I love the way he handles himself. The work is everything. Understanding it is his underlying goal for every one. I have read and own all his books. I love to listen to his voice which soothes and strengths me. Recently, I have added Gregg Braedin. I have sent for his books and I have listen to all his lectures available on youtube. His work bridges for me --- mine and Hancock's With them I see a total picture. I think I am here to learn how to share those stories. And sharing is not easy, I have read some really negative stuff about both these men that floors me. So I realize, what that is all about and you have to keep forcused on the work.

Because many people, keep thinking this is about sex rather than seeking, I am going to retell Gregg's story that has sustained and soothed me lately:

There were two twin girls that were born 7 weeks premature. Following all the medical protocols, the mother and two sisters were immediately separated from one another. Both girls placed in separate incubators in separate rooms. These three hearts so bound by the beating of one another now hear and feel--nothing but emptiness. The weakest twein immediately begins to die. The neonatal nurse driven by some need she does not quite understand brings the dying twin to her sister and places her beside her in the incubator. Immediately, the stronger girl places her entire arm across the shoulders of her sister and her vital signs stabilize. Gregg puts up the picture and there is not a dry eye in the audience. When he explains heart congruence theory, we understanding profoundly what he is talking about because we have just felt it. When he tells and shows us both girls as teenagers well, strong, and happy. We already knew the power of the heart to heal.

The heart congruence theory is based on relatively scientifc evidence that are facts. Facts, that most of the entire planet is unaware of. Facts that were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt on 911. The earth magnetic field pulses at this slow megahertz rate in what is exactly like the web around the earth. It interconnects among all things what we are calling dark energy which we used to just call space. There is no emptiness between anything. The human heart gives off exactly the same electro magnetic pulse as the earth. When the people of the planet are focused on a big thing like international soccer event or Princess Diana's death. There are huge spikes in this resonance. In other words, there is a disturbance in the force to quote Yoda. The University of Princeton has placed 42 of these boxes containing receptors around the world that all report back continuously to the main frame master computer which instantly complies and charts them. 15 minutes after the first plane hit 911, the spike in the electro magnetic field of the entire planet recorded the most enormous spike ever. Later looking back, then can see an escalation starting September 10.

This proof that the entire web of the planet could be effected by the major heart felt reaction of the people of the planet started a lot of research. Gregg goes into a lot of detail about all this on his three hour presentation from his book the Divine Matrix. What is important is that the studies showed how isolated populations of people who were then connected could change that field. From those studies came the question of how many people did it take to feel peace for peace to happen. And there came an exact formula.

It takes the square root of 1% of the population for that to happen. He is addressing an audience of 700 and he says only seven more of these rooms and we could have peace in the world. There is a Jewish midrash story that says as long as 36 people in the world freely choose to live a pure and godly life the world will go on. The minute the number is less than 36, the world dies. Oh, and these people must remain unknown to the world and unknown to each other.

We have had a discussion about banning and deleting the unwanted and unneeded. In this small site, if just 20 people at all times while on the site committed to love and understanding and peace--we would have it. Think about that as I do every time you click on Today's Posts.

Namaste.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Tuesday and Thursday are for me doctor days. When I got home and read this thread I was very disappointed and I went to bed and fell asleep listening to the above radio program.

When I got up, I found the nicest PM from someone I had never run into before. And I was revived. It put me back in touch with the heart congruence feeling.

I listen to Graham Hancock a lot because not only to I admire his work. I love the way he handles himself. The work is everything. Understanding it is his underlying goal for every one. I have read and own all his books. I love to listen to his voice which soothes and strengths me. Recently, I have added Gregg Braedin. I have sent for his books and I have listen to all his lectures available on youtube. His work bridges for me --- mine and Hancock's With them I see a total picture. I think I am here to learn how to share those stories. And sharing is not easy, I have read some really negative stuff about both these men that floors me. So I realize, what that is all about and you have to keep forcused on the work.

Because many people, keep thinking this is about sex rather than seeking, I am going to retell Gregg's story that has sustained and soothed me lately:

There were two twin girls that were born 7 weeks premature. Following all the medical protocols, the mother and two sisters were immediately separated from one another. Both girls placed in separate incubators in separate rooms. These three hearts so bound by the beating of one another now hear and feel--nothing but emptiness. The weakest twein immediately begins to die. The neonatal nurse driven by some need she does not quite understand brings the dying twin to her sister and places her beside her in the incubator. Immediately, the stronger girl places her entire arm across the shoulders of her sister and her vital signs stabilize. Gregg puts up the picture and there is not a dry eye in the audience. When he explains heart congruence theory, we understanding profoundly what he is talking about because we have just felt it. When he tells and shows us both girls as teenagers well, strong, and happy. We already knew the power of the heart to heal.

The heart congruence theory is based on relatively scientifc evidence that are facts. Facts, that most of the entire planet is unaware of. Facts that were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt on 911. The earth magnetic field pulses at this slow megahertz rate in what is exactly like the web around the earth. It interconnects among all things what we are calling dark energy which we used to just call space. There is no emptiness between anything. The human heart gives off exactly the same electro magnetic pulse as the earth. When the people of the planet are focused on a big thing like international soccer event or Princess Diana's death. There are huge spikes in this resonance. In other words, there is a disturbance in the force to quote Yoda. The University of Princeton has placed 42 of these boxes containing receptors around the world that all report back continuously to the main frame master computer which instantly complies and charts them. 15 minutes after the first plane hit 911, the spike in the electro magnetic field of the entire planet recorded the most enormous spike ever. Later looking back, then can see an escalation starting September 10.

This proof that the entire web of the planet could be effected by the major heart felt reaction of the people of the planet started a lot of research. Gregg goes into a lot of detail about all this on his three hour presentation from his book the Divine Matrix. What is important is that the studies showed how isolated populations of people who were then connected could change that field. From those studies came the question of how many people did it take to feel peace for peace to happen. And there came an exact formula.

It takes the square root of 1% of the population for that to happen. He is addressing an audience of 700 and he says only seven more of these rooms and we could have peace in the world. There is a Jewish midrash story that says as long as 36 people in the world freely choose to live a pure and godly life the world will go on. The minute the number is less than 36, the world dies. Oh, and these people must remain unknown to the world and unknown to each other.

We have had a discussion about banning and deleting the unwanted and unneeded. In this small site, if just 20 people at all times while on the site committed to love and understanding and peace--we would have it. Think about that as I do every time you click on Today's Posts.

Namaste.

I left this thread because I didn't feel I had anything useful to add to perspectives so often polarised to the point that there's simply too much needing to be communicated to even begin to create a useful platform.

Then you go and write something this shiningly beautiful and so infused with intention and energy that I can feel it here, all these worlds away, and I'm reminded of the infinite ways that connection can be exquisite and perfect in a moment.

Thankyou.

[ghostrider]

eve wanted the forbidden fruit, because she wasn't supposed to have it, human nature you want what you can't have. the difference- acting upon it or not acting upon it, cause and affect.. the choice is up to the individual its called freedom. to be or not to be, to be faithful or not, one should find a partner that views this in the same light and everyone's feeling stay in tact. easy , we are faithful or not just agree up front before the partnership goes to another level. I personally feel cheating is the lowest blow one can do to another, if you want to windowshop get out of the relationship first, then you keep your dignity.

[unicorny]

Tuesday and Thursday are for me doctor days. When I got home and read this thread I was very disappointed and I went to bed and fell asleep listening to the above radio program.

When I got up, I found the nicest PM from someone I had never run into before. And I was revived. It put me back in touch with the heart congruence feeling.

I listen to Graham Hancock a lot because not only to I admire his work. I love the way he handles himself. The work is everything. Understanding it is his underlying goal for every one. I have read and own all his books. I love to listen to his voice which soothes and strengths me. Recently, I have added Gregg Braedin. I have sent for his books and I have listen to all his lectures available on youtube. His work bridges for me --- mine and Hancock's With them I see a total picture. I think I am here to learn how to share those stories. And sharing is not easy, I have read some really negative stuff about both these men that floors me. So I realize, what that is all about and you have to keep forcused on the work.

Because many people, keep thinking this is about sex rather than seeking, I am going to retell Gregg's story that has sustained and soothed me lately:

There were two twin girls that were born 7 weeks premature. Following all the medical protocols, the mother and two sisters were immediately separated from one another. Both girls placed in separate incubators in separate rooms. These three hearts so bound by the beating of one another now hear and feel--nothing but emptiness. The weakest twein immediately begins to die. The neonatal nurse driven by some need she does not quite understand brings the dying twin to her sister and places her beside her in the incubator. Immediately, the stronger girl places her entire arm across the shoulders of her sister and her vital signs stabilize. Gregg puts up the picture and there is not a dry eye in the audience. When he explains heart congruence theory, we understanding profoundly what he is talking about because we have just felt it. When he tells and shows us both girls as teenagers well, strong, and happy. We already knew the power of the heart to heal.

The heart congruence theory is based on relatively scientifc evidence that are facts. Facts, that most of the entire planet is unaware of. Facts that were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt on 911. The earth magnetic field pulses at this slow megahertz rate in what is exactly like the web around the earth. It interconnects among all things what we are calling dark energy which we used to just call space. There is no emptiness between anything. The human heart gives off exactly the same electro magnetic pulse as the earth. When the people of the planet are focused on a big thing like international soccer event or Princess Diana's death. There are huge spikes in this resonance. In other words, there is a disturbance in the force to quote Yoda. The University of Princeton has placed 42 of these boxes containing receptors around the world that all report back continuously to the main frame master computer which instantly complies and charts them. 15 minutes after the first plane hit 911, the spike in the electro magnetic field of the entire planet recorded the most enormous spike ever. Later looking back, then can see an escalation starting September 10.

This proof that the entire web of the planet could be effected by the major heart felt reaction of the people of the planet started a lot of research. Gregg goes into a lot of detail about all this on his three hour presentation from his book the Divine Matrix. What is important is that the studies showed how isolated populations of people who were then connected could change that field. From those studies came the question of how many people did it take to feel peace for peace to happen. And there came an exact formula.

It takes the square root of 1% of the population for that to happen. He is addressing an audience of 700 and he says only seven more of these rooms and we could have peace in the world. There is a Jewish midrash story that says as long as 36 people in the world freely choose to live a pure and godly life the world will go on. The minute the number is less than 36, the world dies. Oh, and these people must remain unknown to the world and unknown to each other.

We have had a discussion about banning and deleting the unwanted and unneeded. In this small site, if just 20 people at all times while on the site committed to love and understanding and peace--we would have it. Think about that as I do every time you click on Today's Posts.

Namaste.

a beautiful post thanks for sharing the story

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Loved the presentation, well said with humor as it should be, my girlfriend and i watched it together, she told me to go get her some bags of coal ( i do not believe it is for the barbeque since we have no garden or balcony) quite refreshing to see this presentation. We ( the two on the sofa ) talked a lot about this actually since we both have our pasts and agreed to agree on THIS "i am not yours and you are not mine, i am me with you and you are you with me, as long as this works were good, if not, split". Lookie is okay, touchie please discuss or dont even bother telling me please

Listening and watching the presentation made me think of Nancy Friday... Forbidden Fruits ( Verboden Vruchten), a great book about womens fantasies, which i stole from my mum when i was about 12, learned a whole lot from it( fantasies, everybody has them), it also made me look like a Sasquatch at that tender age.

As you have obviously guessed i am a guy and as far as i am aware of in a monogamous relationship at the moment( the couch nods back at me( typing out loud here) so were cool here, nods cool, shakes worrysome, at least a bit)

Mi Stima bo everybody!!

( i love you in Papiamentu)

The anwser should be

Mi tambe

( right back atcha)

Interesting to add by the way is that, we are in a mixed race relationship, she's black, i am as white as snow (really, as snow), we had our share of bull**** comments on this, very racist crap to deal with, on top of this she is a catholic and i am a complete heiden which might also should or could for some serious trouble but it doesnt, never did, never will, funny how people can find eachother isnt it. We both came to the conclusion that love is wunderfull, majestic, blind, colorblind accentdeaf, retarded, has one leg and doesnt give a sh@t as long as it feels good. This knowledge helps a lot.

[Kimberley]

I ordered this book as recommended in this thread...
Thought others might enjoy this interview!

The Ethical Slut 2nd Edition (Pt 1): An Interview with Dossie Easton wow s l u t is a "bad" word on this forum hahha

this is part 1 or 10 parts

QZQAHvn7wZY

[ThePythonicCow]

wow s l u t is a "bad" word on this forum hahha
Fixed :).

(It's still a bad word; I just know ways to trick the cuss word censor.)

[write4change]

Tonight I decided to answer Kimberly's question about sexual surrogacy with Viet Nam Vets. Mostly, because I cannot sleep and I want to see if this helps. Today one of the major articles on Huffington Post is about the over 1500 young men who have lost their genitals just since 2005. Each year is escalting and the number from last year was over 300. When we started the war in Iraq I began to have nightmares and flashback to what it is like dealing with these young men. I started working with them at Letterman Hospital as an adjudicator for the VA. At 31, I was a nurse and began the surragacy program. I also had a master's in psych. After submitting your CV, you were interviewed by a panel of three who essentially said tell us a story about why you would be effective doing this. That story may be for another time.

One of the things I am aware of is this was traumatizing for me as a young woman, but I never acknowledged that until relatively recently. I took my lead from the young vets and the WWII vets that I knew from having a father who was one and so were all his friends and associates. They told hell of a lot of beer stories but they never spoke publicly about feeling stories. Everyone puts those stories in a box puts them away and maybe never looks at them again. Or like my husband getting close to death finally needs to get it off his chest. You never get over seeing these young maimed bodies and the loss on the faces of these guys. If you are a sensitive, you live in their war zone. And you choose to do this because you want them to find peace and you are willing to do whatever it takes to help. You do it for the thirteen friends you will never see again. You do it because their country demanded it of them; and you feel you owe it to them to return in kind.

I am going to talk about the paras first, I don't know how far I can go with this tonight. Not every one was told of this program or allowed to participate. I don't know exactly how the neurologists decided but the shrink input was for these three kinds: those who really indicated wanting to get on with their life in all ways as much as possible and approached everything gung ho, those who had wives and lovers that were highly active and begged for any and all help, and those very young ones with no support who just wanted to die.

The rules for the women nurses were that you had no date of intimacy with the same patient more than three times.

We had a van, a special restaurant that belonged to a vet, and a special motel room in a small out of the way place. You began by going in and meeting the patient like a regular nurse, you changed his dressings, and did all the things nursing did in those times when we had primary care ABC nursing---appearance, behavior, condition. When we gave the bed bath, we took longer, talked more, and creamed their body with old spice mixed with the lubiderm. We asked if they liked it. We asked lots of things--as many as possible to elicite interest in us as people. People were not arbitrarily assigned, we wanted success. We needed response and connection.

One of the things that really got to me was when wives and lovers came into San Francisco, these guys had already been there for weeks. We would show them the pictures of their bodies taken in the Xray room. There were more than I would like to remember that looked and just said no I cannot do it. They simply walked away. When I went into onocology nursing, I had several young women under age 30 with breast cancer whose husbands also simply abandoned them. So I saw that from both sides now. The stronger the original relationship was based on physical desire and beauty, the greater the rejection. John McCain story about his first wife and his reaction to seeing her after her auto accident is rather typical. And I am not so sure those women that tried to be the loving support and then failed caused more pain than just leaving in the first place which is quicker and cleaner and leaves the guy with his anger to work with. Leaving gradually is like letting him psychicly bleed to death.

Those who had wives and lovers we asked to see them be with them kiss them and hold their hands but never uncover them and not to do anything stimulating until we had worked with them. In those days, there were no MRIs and you would not know how things were going to work until tried. If you got connection as a nurse with a guy, it was you who told him about the program and asked if he wanted to participate. You made sure that he felt you cared about him and wanted to do this because lots of things about him attracted you. None of my guys ever said yes immediately.

The big deal for these guys in being not in control. Not making the date, picking the place, the food etc. It is being out in public for the first time in a wheel chair with a woman doing all the work, the driving, the lifting things in and out etc. There is no going to the motel room on the first date. It is letting them think about the whole experience in their own time frame. My job is to get them to forget I am a nurse and see me as a woman who is interested in them. Their stories, their history, their jokes--whatever. More than anything you want to get them to laugh. I learned a bunch of long drawn out story jokes with surprise punch lines. Laughing together is a form of acceptance and agreement. Ulli and the pub are big on that and for the same reasons.

The first date in the motel room is my most difficult night. It is where I make myself vulnerable to someone I really don't know well and will never know really well. We get on the bed together in whatever way he can with his needs of being proped or position etc. He stays fully clothed and I strip in whatever fashion I suss in appropriate and lay naked beside him. He is free to touch me in any way and for some this is not having touched a woman in over a year.

Hopefully, he is honest for his own good and he tells the shrink exactly what he feels or does not feel and the shrink and I plan the next date. If things go well, all the above happens again only now I undress him and caress him in all the ways I can think of that he will accept. At this time in my life, I had not completely been able to sever myself from catholicism and I saw oral sex as a perversion so I had to work with that with myself for a while and talk to shrinks about it.

If all of this is successful, we now have three way counseling with the shrink, myself, and the wife/lover. We discuss what to expect. How to deal with any prothesis, physical appliance that needs to removed and replaced, etc. This is not a one two three go thing. There is a lot of reservation all around. With the single men who find out life is not over thank god, we work with what they need to learn to do to gain as much control as possible. We let them listen to women talking to the shrink about their positive experience with it.

I am by nature a teacher. I love teaching because there is no joy greater than the aha look on a young face unless it is a man who feels he was reborn in love and god granted him grace. That is when you have to be strong enough and loving enough to cry together.

But I know as few women know that war is terrible thing and the price is beyond measure which is why we don't speak of it. The ugliness of war for prophylactic reasons makes me vomit literally and that my country could justify this is something I have no words for. This is enough for tonight.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Tonight I decided to answer Kimberly's question about sexual surrogacy with Viet Nam Vets. Mostly, because I cannot sleep and I want to see if this helps. Today one of the major articles on Huffington Post is about the over 1500 young men who have lost their genitals just since 2005. Each year is escalting and the number from last year was over 300. When we started the war in Iraq I began to have nightmares and flashback to what it is like dealing with these young men. I started working with them at Letterman Hospital as an adjudicator for the VA. At 31, I was a nurse and began the surragacy program. I also had a master's in psych. After submitting your CV, you were interviewed by a panel of three who essentially said tell us a story about why you would be effective doing this. That story may be for another time.

One of the things I am aware of is this was traumatizing for me as a young woman, but I never acknowledged that until relatively recently. I took my lead from the young vets and the WWII vets that I knew from having a father who was one and so were all his friends and associates. They told hell of a lot of beer stories but they never spoke publicly about feeling stories. Everyone puts those stories in a box puts them away and maybe never looks at them again. Or like my husband getting close to death finally needs to get it off his chest. You never get over seeing these young maimed bodies and the loss on the faces of these guys. If you are a sensitive, you live in their war zone. And you choose to do this because you want them to find peace and you are willing to do whatever it takes to help. You do it for the thirteen friends you will never see again. You do it because their country demanded it of them; and you feel you owe it to them to return in kind.

I am going to talk about the paras first, I don't know how far I can go with this tonight. Not every one was told of this program or allowed to participate. I don't know exactly how the neurologists decided but the shrink input was for these three kinds: those who really indicated wanting to get on with their life in all ways as much as possible and approached everything gung ho, those who had wives and lovers that were highly active and begged for any and all help, and those very young ones with no support who just wanted to die.

The rules for the women nurses were that you had no date of intimacy with the same patient more than three times.

We had a van, a special restaurant that belonged to a vet, and a special motel room in a small out of the way place. You began by going in and meeting the patient like a regular nurse, you changed his dressings, and did all the things nursing did in those times when we had primary care ABC nursing---appearance, behavior, condition. When we gave the bed bath, we took longer, talked more, and creamed their body with old spice mixed with the lubiderm. We asked if they liked it. We asked lots of things--as many as possible to elicite interest in us as people. People were not arbitrarily assigned, we wanted success. We needed response and connection.

One of the things that really got to me was when wives and lovers came into San Francisco, these guys had already been there for weeks. We would show them the pictures of their bodies taken in the Xray room. There were more than I would like to remember that looked and just said no I cannot do it. They simply walked away. When I went into onocology nursing, I had several young women under age 30 with breast cancer whose husbands also simply abandoned them. So I saw that from both sides now. The stronger the original relationship was based on physical desire and beauty, the greater the rejection. John McCain story about his first wife and his reaction to seeing her after her auto accident is rather typical. And I am not so sure those women that tried to be the loving support and then failed caused more pain than just leaving in the first place which is quicker and cleaner and leaves the guy with his anger to work with. Leaving gradually is like letting him psychicly bleed to death.

Those who had wives and lovers we asked to see them be with them kiss them and hold their hands but never uncover them and not to do anything stimulating until we had worked with them. In those days, there were no MRIs and you would not know how things were going to work until tried. If you got connection as a nurse with a guy, it was you who told him about the program and asked if he wanted to participate. You made sure that he felt you cared about him and wanted to do this because lots of things about him attracted you. None of my guys ever said yes immediately.

The big deal for these guys in being not in control. Not making the date, picking the place, the food etc. It is being out in public for the first time in a wheel chair with a woman doing all the work, the driving, the lifting things in and out etc. There is no going to the motel room on the first date. It is letting them think about the whole experience in their own time frame. My job is to get them to forget I am a nurse and see me as a woman who is interested in them. Their stories, their history, their jokes--whatever. More than anything you want to get them to laugh. I learned a bunch of long drawn out story jokes with surprise punch lines. Laughing together is a form of acceptance and agreement. Ulli and the pub are big on that and for the same reasons.

The first date in the motel room is my most difficult night. It is where I make myself vulnerable to someone I really don't know well and will never know really well. We get on the bed together in whatever way he can with his needs of being proped or position etc. He stays fully clothed and I strip in whatever fashion I suss in appropriate and lay naked beside him. He is free to touch me in any way and for some this is not having touched a woman in over a year.

Hopefully, he is honest for his own good and he tells the shrink exactly what he feels or does not feel and the shrink and I plan the next date. If things go well, all the above happens again only now I undress him and caress him in all the ways I can think of that he will accept. At this time in my life, I had not completely been able to sever myself from catholicism and I saw oral sex as a perversion so I had to work with that with myself for a while and talk to shrinks about it.

If all of this is successful, we now have three way counseling with the shrink, myself, and the wife/lover. We discuss what to expect. How to deal with any prothesis, physical appliance that needs to removed and replaced, etc. This is not a one two three go thing. There is a lot of reservation all around. With the single men who find out life is not over thank god, we work with what they need to learn to do to gain as much control as possible. We let them listen to women talking to the shrink about their positive experience with it.

I am by nature a teacher. I love teaching because there is no joy greater than the aha look on a young face unless it is a man who feels he was reborn in love and god granted him grace. That is when you have to be strong enough and loving enough to cry together.

But I know as few women know that war is terrible thing and the price is beyond measure which is why we don't speak of it. The ugliness of war for prophylactic reasons makes me vomit literally and that my country could justify this is something I have no words for. This is enough for tonight.

right now there are no words.

[Kimberley]

Dear write4change and all...

write4change, thank you so very much for sharing this with us! And thank you for all you are! You use the name write4change and you are doing just that.

You taught me a couple of things that I really never thought about before...
The stronger the original relationship was based on physical desire and beauty, the greater the rejection.

I have never been able to understand war...it is sickening. Thank you for your service to the men that you helped!

A couple of years back when I was struggling with very high sexual energy surges, due to the onset of menopause, I made a strong connection about how our sexual energy is not only our procreative energy it is our co-creative energy. Since then every time I have an orgasm I send that energy out to the universe and repeat the words in my head or out loud sometimes ... Peace on Earth...Peace on Earth... Peace on Earth...Peace on Earth...

Much love to us all!! :hug:

[write4change]

Kimberly,

I think you are right about using that energy for co creation and it is much harder for a man to get there. He does not have a clitoris which is the only organ in the human body designed solely for pleasure. If you look at god as the intelligent design then he designed sex for pleasure as much as procreation. From pleasure comes love or at least appreciation. I have always known that the bible was written by men. If you were an infinite creator, you would not be sitting around on some throne listening to a bunch of people saying we praise you, we bless you, we glorify you, etc. That is a male fantasy. A creating god gets off on creating, praising etc would be extremely boring for eternity. Creating gods continue to create and the universe expands.

A man thinks he is doing something even some books tell him to count thrusts etc. He has been competing in pissing matches since he could stand. Sex is very external for a man. For a woman, sex is very internal and you have to open to it. Unlike a little boy, she is never confronted with her sexuality in her face. For a woman sex is an awakening, a flowering. Unforunately, the way our society functions, most women never get to experience their blooming because more often than not their first male partners think they have a gun and want to see how many rounds they can fire and the notches they can carve. One of the things, the book points out is that men are imprinted very young what sex is and it is very difficult for them to change. Women are not imprinted so deeply and they seem to be able to adapt more.

He illustrates this by telling the study of goats and sheep. They take infant goats and sheep and raise male goats with female sheep and vice versa. They come to their sexuality and since they know no different will mate with each other. After allowing that they place them back in herds of their own kind. The males will not mate with female goats, they want their sheep back. The females within a few months are normal members of the herd.

Kimberly, you remain more focus than I --- I get no further than oh god oh god oh god. LOL

One of the things the book did for me is explain why most men make no sounds. That has bothered me all my life particularly with the love of my life. He is also a tantric master but I think of him as so controled. I can now look at him differently which makes him that much hotter to me. I have loved him in different ways for over 40 years. I would love to hear him gasp oh god.

In writing my books, I spent six months on the net watching all kinds of porn. Such things were not available in my time of learning about sex and I learned a lot and got over the novelty of all of it. The only men who consistently make sounds are gay men and gay women are not very vocal either. I think knowing these kinds of things when I was young and making choices would have been very helpful. If I were a parent of a teen, I would rush out and buy this book and come to new understanding before I tried to tell my kids what it's all about as I see it.

[Moz]

Dear write4change,

I'm so impressed with the way that you write and explain/tell your ideas.
I find it a pleasure to read your thoughts and hope that one day most of us will attain this attitude towards ourselves and the ones we love.

I feel so much right now I can explain it...i ts just what you tell and the manner... it totally gets to me.

My most sincere respect for you.
Moz

[write4change]

Thank you Moz. I have had some very negative experience telling these stories in my 30s, so I stopped. I cannot remember pain without feeling pain and it can be difficult for me. Your feedback encourages me that I am on the right path and the universe wants these stories told. So thank you again for helping me get there. Silence does not feel like consent. I am now off to the doctor's with a smile on my face.

[Moz]

write4cahnge,

I'm very pleased that I could give you that today...it is my pleasure.
And once again I think you have done some incredible work in this life.
I hope all goes well with you and the Doc.

A very BIG hug to you.
Moz

[EnergyGardener]

I confess I would rather read a thread of sex authored by women, than men.:cool:

However, to the defense of at least some of my gender: There are human men that do fully appreciate the sensitivities of all aspects of the sexual experience. Consider, that too, many times men are much more giving than their counterparts. One of the reasons: acting as the instigator is still considered their role by many women. Second, could this also be conditioned as a result of performance issues: That the result (or initial surprise of) feminine leadership (especially if done in the negative) sometimes does have a dampening effect; we can be delicate beings...:o

Yet, if even it is better in other worlds, other places, with other people, I say, the glass is more than half full and I am thankful to be here! I am a very lucky man! And, my entire family, especially myself, will continue to reap the rewards of our strong bonds, provided, I do not forget.:luv:

Though, there are still many (perhaps the vast majority) that remain clueless; the frustration is understood. Fore example: With my old golfing group, the same "good" friend would repeat the same joke, "Do you want to know the best way to give a woman an orgasm?" I would of course be compelled to offer just a few, when he would interrupt with the punchline, "who cares?" I would then try to explain in great detail why all men should care, but there was never an audience for that. I remember, and still do today, the sympathy I had for them to miss out on what I retain as one of life's greatest treasures. At the least, the very idea that I was / am invited to provide that experience remains the greatest compliment, adventure, thrill, and then of course:
:boom:

REWARD!

:drag:

I do very much hope that more males and females alike will learn and develop the appreciation that much more is received when, and usually after, much more is given. And, I do not mean that in the number or effort of thrusts.

Cheers.

[HORIZONS]

I confess I would rather read a thread of sex authored by women, than men.:cool:

However, to the defense of at least some of my gender: There are human men that do fully appreciate the sensitivities of all aspects of the sexual experience.

I do very much hope that more males and females alike will learn and develop the appreciation that much more is received when, and usually after, much more is given. And, I do not mean that in the number or effort of thrusts.

Cheers.

Well spoken EnergyGardener, Well spoken!!! :amen:

[Kimberley]

As I said in my first post on this thread this post is so"me".... I am a talker much more than a typer so I am not adding as much as i could because this is not my best mode of communication...even though I do like to write and do write I am envious of W4C ability to flow with her writing. And I thank here SO much for sharing what she is sharing...I will share more when I am able...

I did a google search on"sexual surrogacy with Viet Nam Vets" and found a few interesting pages... including this thread at the top of the list...??

http://sex-surrogate.com/
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1201/26/ddhln.01.htme

I am here loving this and will be back with more soon...
Much love!!

[nearing]

w4c is an excellent writer and I feel privileged to have her giving us these tidbits of extraordinary knowledge that we would otherwise never be exposed to.

We have human sexuality here from the ancient and biological to the modern and societal. What a classroom!

[nearing]

For your consideration:
Pranic Intimacy Rituals

JWwjvVG1lRI

I wonder if the Bonobos have a similar ritual? Who are we to say they don't?

[write4change]

I ask Nearing to post this for me. And for all those who are worried -- it has a G Rating.

[songsfortheotherkind]

I ask Nearing to post this for me. And for all those who are worried -- it has a G Rating.

I was watching this and realising that my non-human nature was watching and feeling really puzzled about it. I honestly can't read the energy signals in most of this- that's nothing new, there's a lot that I don't understand energetically about some practices- but I hadn't realised that the 'untrained' way I do tantra is vastly different from other practices. It also makes me curious that I feel adaptations of these sorts of practices would be possible for me with a *female*, but not a male. I simply have never experienced males being able to truly hold this kind of space in a way that doesn't feel- manipulative? Weird? Off signal? I can't really explain it, although I do recognise a completely different energetic signal if I tune into the Otherrealms.

Now I'm curious as to what that is.... *wanders off to play with the frequency*

[write4change]

I confess I would rather read a thread of sex authored by women, than men.:cool:

However, to the defense of at least some of my gender: There are human men that do fully appreciate the sensitivities of all aspects of the sexual experience. Consider, that too, many times men are much more giving than their counterparts. One of the reasons: acting as the instigator is still considered their role by many women. Second, could this also be conditioned as a result of performance issues: That the result (or initial surprise of) feminine leadership (especially if done in the negative) sometimes does have a dampening effect; we can be delicate beings...:o

Yet, if even it is better in other worlds, other places, with other people, I say, the glass is more than half full and I am thankful to be here! I am a very lucky man! And, my entire family, especially myself, will continue to reap the rewards of our strong bonds, provided, I do not forget.:luv:

Though, there are still many (perhaps the vast majority) that remain clueless; the frustration is understood. Fore example: With my old golfing group, the same "good" friend would repeat the same joke, "Do you want to know the best way to give a woman an orgasm?" I would of course be compelled to offer just a few, when he would interrupt with the punchline, "who cares?" I would then try to explain in great detail why all men should care, but there was never an audience for that. I remember, and still do today, the sympathy I had for them to miss out on what I retain as one of life's greatest treasures. At the least, the very idea that I was / am invited to provide that experience remains the greatest compliment, adventure, thrill, and then of course:
:boom:

REWARD!

:drag:

I do very much hope that more males and females alike will learn and develop the appreciation that much more is received when, and usually after, much more is given. And, I do not mean that in the number or effort of thrusts.

Cheers.

Energygardner,

Everything I "know" about sex and especially the deep and the profound has been taught by a man. Certainly, great male minds have spent not only a lot of time but lives sussing all this. Great male leaders now at this time, usually are married and/or with partners with whom they have deep and profound experiences and they bring that to their work. A man who is sexually satisfied has a glistening to his entire aura. They are very rare. But they will be the ones who hold this world together in some ways as we face this time. I see this darkly but do not yet see how it works. It may be part of why I am moved by the universe to write all this now.

I have been a sexually traumatized woman and particularly a young girl but my ability to get passed it; is much greater than an equally traumatized young male. I have worked with some of them even after 50. One man after 50, I recently worked with deliberately got Aids. His father did him rear entry at 7 and the relationship lasted that way until 12. This man is as mean as a snake in all the metaphoric ways we say that. I am not the only one over his life that has worked with him. First, he feels maybe rightly or wrongly, I can't tell with him--that his mother colluded and this becomes an even bigger wound. Then coming from the south with patriarchy and possession, he feels like the whole world colluded. Knowing him as I do, the world is lucky that he is not a serial murderer but then he is not dead yet.

I tell these stories no to invoke revulsion but to give some real foundation to people understanding how sex is not what we do, but who we are. And that society imposing or not imposing a workable structure for people to find out freely when they are young who they are and who they are free to love if they choose is a foundation of angst--sorrow and anger--the west has been totally unwilling to face because the patriarchy authoritarian role is all about submission and possession.

I posted in another thread that the catholic church for centuries knowingly and publicly castrated young boys in hopes of retaining them as male sopranos. Many families sold their young sons to the church for this purpose. It took centuries for a consensus to be reached that this was totally immoral even thought sanctioned by the church. Once that consensus is reached; we develop amnesia and pretend it never happened. It is this kind of behavior regarding every institution that matters that is now not functioning that has brought us to this place.. It is not enough that you did not do it; you must stand and say this is wrong. Right now most of us, walk on by.

[write4change]

I ask Nearing to post this for me. And for all those who are worried -- it has a G Rating.

I was watching this and realising that my non-human nature was watching and feeling really puzzled about it. I honestly can't read the energy signals in most of this- that's nothing new, there's a lot that I don't understand energetically about some practices- but I hadn't realised that the 'untrained' way I do tantra is vastly different from other practices. It also makes me curious that I feel adaptations of these sorts of practices would be possible for me with a *female*, but not a male. I simply have never experienced males being able to truly hold this kind of space in a way that doesn't feel- manipulative? Weird? Off signal? I can't really explain it, although I do recognise a completely different energetic signal if I tune into the Otherrealms.

What you are feeling is this is not real. These two people have no connection whatsoever other than professionals who want to do a basic illustration that is not controversial. Time wise it is also very compressed--less than eight minutes with something normally would last at least an hour.

What you see is an interaction that few contemplate much less do. A long porn session is 15 minutes. And average homemade porn with great intensity is 5. What I learned from all the net porn available is that people will stare wide eyed at the camera but never look at their partner. Men who are supposed to be so obessed with breasts rarely touch them. Women do more touching of themselves while men are screwing them, then men experiencing the female body.

My husband was a good lover. He could do a good intense 15 minutes even at 70 but this annointing of the senses, sharing the breath, opening the body etc for hours was something he tried once or twice when he was 58. And he was done with that. It was not in his vocabulary. LOL

My husband was probably one of the last old school guys who learned initially in what was quite common until the 50s. Television did not tell us like it is---it told us what it wanted us to believe. That all married coules slept in twin beds, that sex really was for procreation, that pregnancy was a word not to be used in public much less seen, etc. This is the world the fundies yearn for total control and total repression, and if you are to believe the art, the novels, the movies etc coming out of that period totally miserable.

On my husband's sixteenth birthday, his father took him for a week to New Orleans. There he gave him over to one of the best brothels of the city and departed, returning in a week to reclaim the new man. This was the father's favorite places to visit and he had periodically over the decades. He knew the women and they knew him. They were clean, self respecting, self caring, healthful and felt they had a good job to do. First, allowing men to stay married to their very frigid wives who were a product of the society of repression. Second, making sure their sons knew all the ins and outs of how various women functioned so the son could bring pleasure to his many loves and have the desire to love many. My husband visited high class call girls all his life until he met me and then he openly told me what he felt for me would not last. LOL Some of my husband's greatest stories is going hunting with his father. Which meant exchanging tales of the brothels as equals. What is also known is the wife and mother knew this and did not give a hoot as long as it was away from home territory and she was not bothered by it. My husband's family was reasonably well to do and growing up all his friends had parents with separate bedrooms. I thought my parents shared a bed because they were poor. LOL


Now I'm curious as to what that is.... *wanders off to play with the frequency*

I hope this works as I can see I messed up the quote and do not know what to do about it.

Clearly in tribes, Oceania, and ancient India, the old taught the young. It was grandfathers and grandmothers who were mentors to the young who mostly lived in communial type dormatories and were free to experiment while reaching maturity when they would then make mature choices having worked that out growing up. For sure this was practiced to the 1870s and there are many written accounts of what was found by the missionaries and their horror of it etc. It is not beyond the pale that older women had sex with young men and vice versa in a very natural and private way because they were learning. And it would be private because it was recognized that is was all done lovingly and no one was better than the others--just different. Thus, you were free to love who you pleased because love granted you love--it did not come with possessions.

Particularly on successful islands, they had stable populations, abudant food, good weather, and not much labor to survive. Life was good and there was no reason to sweat the small stuff. The only thing the big kahuna had that you did not have was more feathers in his hat and with that came a lot of aggravation. Being a chief was not an asipration, it came from growth and usually was determined by the women of the tribe.

Sort of a nutshell history which we will see what that brings.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

For those of you reading this--much of my reply to songs of the other kind is in the quote. I will have to be more careful in the future. Unless Paul comes around and fixes this. LOL


¤=[Post Update]=¤

Kilroy er eh Paul was here. Quote fixed, if I got it right. :) :cow: :)

[EnergyGardener]

energygardner,

everything i "know" about sex and especially the deep and the profound has been taught by a man. Certainly, great male minds have spent not only a lot of time but lives sussing all this. Great male leaders now at this time, usually are married and/or with partners with whom they have deep and profound experiences and they bring that to their work. A man who is sexually satisfied has a glistening to his entire aura. They are very rare. But they will be the ones who hold this world together in some ways as we face this time. I see this darkly but do not yet see how it works. It may be part of why i am moved by the universe to write all this now.

I have been a sexually traumatized woman and particularly a young girl but my ability to get passed it; is much greater than an equally traumatized young male. I have worked with some of them even after 50. One man after 50, i recently worked with deliberately got aids. His father did him rear entry at 7 and the relationship lasted that way until 12. This man is as mean as a snake in all the metaphoric ways we say that. I am not the only one over his life that has worked with him. First, he feels maybe rightly or wrongly, i can't tell with him--that his mother colluded and this becomes an even bigger wound. Then coming from the south with patriarchy and possession, he feels like the whole world colluded. Knowing him as i do, the world is lucky that he is not a serial murderer but then he is not dead yet.

I tell these stories no to invoke revulsion but to give some real foundation to people understanding how sex is not what we do, but who we are. And that society imposing or not imposing a workable structure for people to find out freely when they are young who they are and who they are free to love if they choose is a foundation of angst--sorrow and anger--the west has been totally unwilling to face because the patriarchy authoritarian role is all about submission and possession.

I posted in another thread that the catholic church for centuries knowingly and publicly castrated young boys in hopes of retaining them as male sopranos. Many families sold their young sons to the church for this purpose. It took centuries for a consensus to be reached that this was totally immoral even thought sanctioned by the church. Once that consensus is reached; we develop amnesia and pretend it never happened. It is this kind of behavior regarding every institution that matters that is now not functioning that has brought us to this place.. It is not enough that you did not do it; you must stand and say this is wrong. Right now most of us, walk on by.

Write4Change,

A wonderful reciprocating male/female relationship, on all levels, is a gift to be treasured, likely in any dimension. The daily, lifetime and emanating benefits to all from that union and constant sharing, is infinitely helpful in ways we might not fully appreciate in our 3rd.

To make a difference, to end all tyrannical behavior, suppression, oppression—all those forces that have prevented us from accomplishing our missions of freedom from this realm—must be accomplished by us. That is why we are here.

Because the valuable lessons of the third, that we have gained, teach us that they will continue to be taught, but also too, more negative karma planted. So, enlightened, or having deemed ourselves lucky in any regard, must be used and realized as a gift of strength, to continue to free our family and friends still asleep in the third.

I believe this issue continues beyond 2012, but then, that is perhaps, another topic...

EnergyGardener

[EnergyGardener]

Nothing like a white man’s dampening to a woman’s colorful sex thread. Sorry about that. In my attempt to return life, I will provide the following insight:

GETTING IT.

This relates back to my discussion about the joke about the “Who Cares?” relative to a woman’s orgasm. While most thought it was funny (perhaps even understood), I saw its very idea, even as a joke, unacceptable. Because, we now know scientifically, the merits to both the woman and man from a woman’s orgasm: 1) movement and direction of the sperm from the provider of that orgasm, but to the long term of the relationship 2), the more permanent position that person holds within the female’s subconscious relates to the quantity and quality of the orgasms provided. On the non-scientific, but obvious level: 3) simply knowing that we have provided the best that we can for the most important person in our life is mandatory. On a not-so-antiseptic level, but this is what many boys dream for with their lover: 4) I can’t believe I am invited to do this! WOW!

To point number 4, which deserves its own paragraph. The right to enjoy the amazing privilege and wonderment of the woman’s body, the woman’s spirit, that pleased and thankful look from our/womens' eyes, sweaty passion and, even laughter, is won of the rewards men live for: The telltale signs of the appreciative receiver of success are infinite, but just a few are worth mentioning: light pressing on the lower back, not-so-light fingernails in the back, caressing, even pulling of one’s hair, pushing down of one’s head, and of course, wake-the-neighbors screaming with abandon (and the awkward conversations that follow):

“Mommy, why were you screaming?” “Daddy and I were just playing, honey, I’m okay.” “But why were you screaming, you sounded like he was hurting you?” “Daddy was tickling, me, honey. See, I’m fine.”

“Daddy, will you tickle me too?”

The man or woman that appreciates the smells, features, curves, mysteries, challenges, and yes, screams of one’s partner/s, likely also appreciates everything else infinitely beautiful of the magic of our wonderful Earth / Gaia: the splash of a raindrop, butterflies, bees, birds, all animals, flowers, seasons, wind, sun, stars, and of course, the incredible developments we are part of in this immediate universal change. How lucky are we!

So, the reward goes to couples that Get It, because, then perhaps, they will: Continue to Get It… Often! Even if not at the moment, then likely soon, when they/you do meet Mr. or Ms. Right—whom also, Gets It...

Part of Getting It; this must be remembered, even after each disagreement or difficult circumstances due to our differences / incompatibilities:

Love is a Decision, Not an Emotion!

While vast power emanates from the heart, that power—in order to be constructive—Love must be directed from the heart by the head—that head that sits upon our shoulders.

Okay, perhaps that wasn’t enough to bring color or fun back to your thread, perhaps still a bit boring…

Perhaps to your original thread title: …Get a Dog! Could be: Get a Dog or Train Yourselves and Discover a Get It Man!

I contend that we men are and happy to be dogs! We are willing to please. If we don’t get it quickly, then perhaps it does take some training, physical and mental conditioning! But, what man wouldn’t love the fun of the training from each session? Isn’t the idea itself crazy and fun? Why cannot this happen right now?

Women are the best teachers; Women are brilliant; Women have what men want; Women are the most beautiful creation ever accomplished. Why cannot women work together to train their men proper behavior, and also themselves, to insure that everyone Gets It.

Your courage and intelligence to start this post demonstrates that you recognize the problem. Can you provide a program for the solution? You certainly have everyone’s attention!

Does the apprehension to provide an easy inexpensive process of mutual discovery and attention (not everyone can afford or can be compelled to hire a beautiful sex therapist) prevent the discovery of worlds unknown for mankind in the 3rd, 5th, and all dimensions? Are our wounds and insecurities from past experiences so deep that we are too shy to create programs for Get It relationships?

Will men provide unconditional love? Yes, absolutely, Yes! Make yourself indispensible, so adored, that pleasing you is your man’s / dog’s greatest objective. Make yourself so adored, that disappointing you is the last event possible: Because your broken heart by your Get It man, would destroy him too.

Are you willing to provide a program / outline for all women to train / educate their dogs / men, so that everyone “Gets It?”

Cheers.

[Kimberley]

Thank you for that EnergyGardner!! You are for sure a gettin' it guy!
Much love!!

[write4change]

Okay Energygardner, I almost had a brain orgasm over that -- almost -- LOL

You have the essence -- LOVE IS A DECISION NOT AN EMOTION

Love is what you bring to the plate. In all my training, learning all kinds of techniques --- the I have it all, I am open to it all orgasm comes first from you -- you who are always both giver and receiver.


The problem is those are all words and until you feel this you -- for me and my experience -- you never get it.

I was able to bring that decision to those vets. This was not ****ing for me this was love at its most profound. My hope for them is that I could channel thru my body what I had learned.

When I reflect on the truth of what I am hearing from a teacher, the amount of credibility I give it-- is how much judgment is expressed and how much certitude. The three man I am into big time right now McKenna, Braeden, and Hancock have all had NDE, OBE, and substantial realtiy life threatening risk taking. No judgment, no finality, and no certitude come from any of these men.

I am reading McKenna from 1985 and 1987. He was five years younger than I and at least 50 years ahead. I am amazed at what he wrote then that I did not have an inkling of. I have to weave all these stories into what is appearing here. My thinking and meditating leading to fantastic lucid dreaming is full speed ahead after drifting quite a while.

When I reflect on the truth of what I have experienced, I ask what changed in me? My proof to me is that I am changed and I will never be the same. All three of these men say that. So did Jung, Krishnamurti, R.D. Laing. Some experiences like the NDE can take years to process fully, but the orgasm of love--you, your lover, and the universe--is instant and eternal. You can always return to that feeling to sustain you. At least, for me and I have tested that out big time.

So when people tell me they are enlightened or whatever --- they are laying out a judgment. And I go not yet, but you have begun and I have no need to say that. Everyone tests that out in their own way and in their own time. I only get somewhat upset when they lay out THIS IS THE WAY. Most of the time I withdraw. Right now the universe says to me stand like a willow and bend thru all the storms.

This was a life process for me that began with a gift. Grace from the universe. I need the depth of the night to go there. Now I have to come back and deal with problems of the world as long as I live in this body --- I must balance the sacred and the profane. You cannot live entirely in one or the other which is where people of certitude want to go and that way is profane to the way of the universe which is constant creation. Not only are the answers changing but so are the questions.

Thank you , gardner you planted well. Tonight I will bloom.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Love is a Decision, Not an Emotion

This, this I resonate with so much- the choice, always choice, not some random lottery of chemicals and programming.

Choice and consciousness, always gorgeous...

[songsfortheotherkind]

I was watching this and realising that my non-human nature was watching and feeling really puzzled about it. I honestly can't read the energy signals in most of this- that's nothing new, there's a lot that I don't understand energetically about some practices- but I hadn't realised that the 'untrained' way I do tantra is vastly different from other practices. It also makes me curious that I feel adaptations of these sorts of practices would be possible for me with a *female*, but not a male. I simply have never experienced males being able to truly hold this kind of space in a way that doesn't feel- manipulative? Weird? Off signal? I can't really explain it, although I do recognise a completely different energetic signal if I tune into the Otherrealms.


What you are feeling is this is not real. These two people have no connection whatsoever other than professionals who want to do a basic illustration that is not controversial. Time wise it is also very compressed--less than eight minutes with something normally would last at least an hour.

What you see is an interaction that few contemplate much less do. A long porn session is 15 minutes. And average homemade porn with great intensity is 5. What I learned from all the net porn available is that people will stare wide eyed at the camera but never look at their partner. Men who are supposed to be so obessed with breasts rarely touch them. Women do more touching of themselves while men are screwing them, then men experiencing the female body.

My husband was a good lover. He could do a good intense 15 minutes even at 70 but this annointing of the senses, sharing the breath, opening the body etc for hours was something he tried once or twice when he was 58. And he was done with that. It was not in his vocabulary. LOL

My husband was probably one of the last old school guys who learned initially in what was quite common until the 50s. Television did not tell us like it is---it told us what it wanted us to believe. That all married coules slept in twin beds, that sex really was for procreation, that pregnancy was a word not to be used in public much less seen, etc. This is the world the fundies yearn for total control and total repression, and if you are to believe the art, the novels, the movies etc coming out of that period totally miserable.

On my husband's sixteenth birthday, his father took him for a week to New Orleans. There he gave him over to one of the best brothels of the city and departed, returning in a week to reclaim the new man. This was the father's favorite places to visit and he had periodically over the decades. He knew the women and they knew him. They were clean, self respecting, self caring, healthful and felt they had a good job to do. First, allowing men to stay married to their very frigid wives who were a product of the society of repression. Second, making sure their sons knew all the ins and outs of how various women functioned so the son could bring pleasure to his many loves and have the desire to love many. My husband visited high class call girls all his life until he met me and then he openly told me what he felt for me would not last. LOL Some of my husband's greatest stories is going hunting with his father. Which meant exchanging tales of the brothels as equals. What is also known is the wife and mother knew this and did not give a hoot as long as it was away from home territory and she was not bothered by it. My husband's family was reasonably well to do and growing up all his friends had parents with separate bedrooms. I thought my parents shared a bed because they were poor. LOL


Now I'm curious as to what that is.... *wanders off to play with the frequency*


I hope this works as I can see I messed up the quote and do not know what to do about it.

Clearly in tribes, Oceania, and ancient India, the old taught the young. It was grandfathers and grandmothers who were mentors to the young who mostly lived in communial type dormatories and were free to experiment while reaching maturity when they would then make mature choices having worked that out growing up. For sure this was practiced to the 1870s and there are many written accounts of what was found by the missionaries and their horror of it etc. It is not beyond the pale that older women had sex with young men and vice versa in a very natural and private way because they were learning. And it would be private because it was recognized that is was all done lovingly and no one was better than the others--just different. Thus, you were free to love who you pleased because love granted you love--it did not come with possessions.

Particularly on successful islands, they had stable populations, abudant food, good weather, and not much labor to survive. Life was good and there was no reason to sweat the small stuff. The only thing the big kahuna had that you did not have was more feathers in his hat and with that came a lot of aggravation. Being a chief was not an asipration, it came from growth and usually was determined by the women of the tribe.

Sort of a nutshell history which we will see what that brings.



I have been moving this around and experienced something this morning that helped me understand more what I'm puzzling about- I have sex multidimensionally, with physical and energetic Beings, simultaneously. If the quality of the physical connections amp, so do the energetic ones, so I'm continuously going up the spiral. I can maintain the energetic connections for ages after the physical ends, so that my etheric body is still involved in what's going on *over there* .

It was cool to discover what was confusing me. :)

[Kimberley]

Ok... here I goooo..

Just for the record ..if it matters...although it does matter...I will be 54 years young in May...I am a Taurus (for those of you into astrology, as I am).

I discovered orgasm at an early age, as do many. I say I was 3, however my most vivid recollection is at age 6. And I have been bringing my self to orgasm ever since. Sometimes several times a day.

As a mother I witnessed my first born daughter to discover orgasm at about 3 and my second daughter (now 15) to the best of my knowledge has still not discovered it.

I had no clue that orgasm was a sexual thing until 10 years young, when a book was being passed around my 6th grade class titled "The Voyeur" (and I am not finding it yet, I think it was vintage 1967..would love to find it again. It was probably considered a porn book). That book taught me most all I needed to know about sex and never needed to ask. It covered so much ... and was brought to my attention at age 10.

I was never sexually abused, however my mother physically and emotionally abused me big time.. not going there now. Perhaps a story for another time.

After reading The Voyeur book and connecting the dots that my orgasms could be brought on with the help of another I was so wanting a partner to do that with me. That did not happen until I was 14 .. so I was wanting, longing, waiting for 4 years before I had my first kiss... and then at 14 I finally hooked up with my first lover, Frank... Frank and I explored each other many days a week. My only rule was no penile penetration, because I knew that the only true way to avoid pregnancy was NO penetration/intercourse. I had no way to get birth control, due to my age. And due to my mother. So I like Bill Clinton believed that I was not having sex if I was not having intercourse. I was technically a virgin (in my definition) until I was 19. Frank and I did every thing but.... oral stimulation was what it was all about. He and I spoke a couple of years ago and he blames me for premature ejaculation because of our oral encounters.. heheeheh

Well, it was not until my teen years that I started to hear that others were being told/taught that masturbation was a sin. For me I thought how could that be that I as a 3 year old child that discovered masturbation and orgasm could be a sinner??? Yikes!!! No way is a 3 year old child a sinner!!! Myself included. And because of those early years I never though of sex as being "bad", because it brought such pleasure to me and my partner/s.

ok...I am not a writer..I am a talker.. and I will continue at another time...as I have so much more to say...

So this time I am saying follow what feels right for you!!!

Thank you W4C and all....

More to come... pun intended!!!

XOXOXO
Much love :hug:

[ThePythonicCow]

a book was being passed around my 6th grade class titled "The Voyeur" (and I am not finding it yet, I think it was vintage 1967..would love to find it again.Perhaps it was one of these two:

The Voyeur (http://amzn.com/034010659X), by Henry Sutton (1969)
Voyeur (http://amzn.com/B000RLDMJI), by Jim Conroy (1967)

[Kimberley]

a book was being passed around my 6th grade class titled "The Voyeur" (and I am not finding it yet, I think it was vintage 1967..would love to find it again.Perhaps it was one of these two:

The Voyeur (http://amzn.com/034010659X), by Henry Sutton (1969)
Voyeur (http://amzn.com/B000RLDMJI), by Jim Conroy (1967)


Wow thank you Paul! I am pretty sure it is the Henry Sutton one... I just ordered it ! I found a description of the other book and it does not fit.

I can not tell from the cover because the book that went around the whole 6th grade had a fake black cover on it. I'll let you know after I get my copy. I hope it is the right book as I would love to read it again and report back. For me as a 10 year old it was a monumental book for my sexual awakening. Because no one talked about sex to a 10 year old in the mid 60's.

My step father caught me reading it under the covers with a flashlight. And I begged him not to tell my mother (she would have killed me even though she never spoke of sex, I knew she would have been appalled. And in hind sight it might have been good for her if she had read it hehehe)...he did not tell her.

Before reading this book I had already been reading his playboy magazines "Hidden" in his dresser drawer. I made 3 sets of pasties and g-strings for me and 2 of my friends also when in 6th grade. I wanted to take Polaroid photos of the 3 of us. I never asked them so therefore no photos. I think it was the combination of the playboy magazines and the book...and my new made connection about what my orgasms were a part of.

And because of the erotic book that put one and one together for me I would bring myself to orgasm after reading it.....and a lot of other books since..

Your research Paul got me to this blog http://ilyasanugraha.blogspot.com/ that uses that book in its analysis of what is literature...So it fits in my memory of the book... we will soon see. Again I sure hope it is the same book...

Some who are reading this thread and my posts might be asking "Why is she sharing all of this?". I stated this earlier and will state it again...Sexual repression is IMO the biggest deceiver/deception and controlling mechanisms that the human race has endured and still endures. Sexuality and love are tied at the hip and the heart This is one of the areas of humanity that needs to be revealed. exposed, and uncovered. (The pun did not appear to me until after I wrote the words hehe).

I have had to shed a lot of false beliefs to get to where I am today. (and that is still a work in progress). Even though I was hearing all the talk about no sex until marriage and to be a good girl vs a bad girl, I could not let go of my knowing that to love another and want to be intimate with others was a "bad" thing. It is not a "bad" thing it is the most powerful exchange of creative, loving energy on the planet.

And we have been mislead in the name of control and guilt and jealousy and possessiveness and fear (all lower vibrating energy's) around our sexuality. So I am doing my part to shed light on this deception.

The religions and the government have held us down by controlling our sexual nature. My connection to my innate sexual energy and not buying into what I was being told was right or wrong was my first step of self discovery and understanding of my sovereignty to remember who I am!

Thank you for remembering who you are and how powerful you are!!

Follow your heart...follow your dreams!!

I'll be back with more soon...

Much love to us all! :grouphug:

And a special thank you to W4C...you have inspired me to share my side of the story...I am not as a prolific writer as you, however I am so enjoying contributing to this important thread. And thank you to all that are contributing their experiences, and asking questions and pondering this important topic.

[write4change]

Kimberly,

My writing maybe prolific but yours is authentic, spontaneous, and heartfelt. We are different not one better than other but different and that difference is important, desirable, and necessary to develop the big picture which for all the reasons you state was not available to most people. If I were a young person just learning about sex, I would already know about how of sex it is every where but I would be reading this because I would not know about the why of sex which even the best of parents finds too personal and intimate to convey.

So I spontaneously bounce off your take on masturbation:

We fired a surgeon general the same difference in our ages as the firing for speaking about masturbation publicly.

One of her last really big scoring shows for Oprah was a series on masturbation. They got there by doing an expose on oral sex among teens particularly teen girls who were really getting nothing but risk about doing this. By the time this showed aired I had already been exposed years ago to this youth concept and understanding that a goodnight kiss was more intimate than oral sex. And I am asking where and how did these kids get such screwed up thinking?

Oprah's show was very revealing to me: expert opinions, the girls invovled willing to be public, the audience reaction, etc. The double standards for boys and girls. My reactions -- hair standing on end etc.

It has probably been close to five years ago and I have notes stuck somewhere and I am not going to look for them because I still have an deep emotional reaction enough to remember what I think about what I think I saw.

The double standard for boys and girls is just about as deep today as it was when I was growing up. Boys can't help themselves and begin as babies because it is all hanging out. Girls don't spontaneously do this and it can be prevented. A girl's body must be preserved and it must remain innocent and a boy's is built on learning experience and he is taught to give it up and girls are taught not to do it in the first place.

Coming from a catholic background, being washed by grandmother and then washing with other older girls, and then watching babies being washed -- I learned that this was all so necessary and was really dirty and not to be touched and must always use a lot of soap on a big washcloth. By the time first communion comes about age 7, catholics have learned the term self abuse and that this is a major sin requiring regular confession. After the Kinsley report around 55, catholic teaching on this faded into silence until around 1980 and it is now back with a vengence.

So why is something which should be so private something that is coming back for public discussion? This is a true case of it harming no one. And we know for sure the old wives takes about it are totally false. Particularly for men -- masturbation -- does not make them want women less. For men masturbation on a whole is like a prepping point necessary to learning and growing and understanding their sexuality. Now why wouldn't it be a prepping point for women too? And why wouldn't it be a private issue?

And while oral sex is a bugaboo why have they not gone after that with the vengence of masturbation and birth control? Well for one in the South where all this begins in the US, they had concocted this idea that oral sex was never mentioned or described in the bible and therefore, it was't a sex sin. Thus, you could be satisfied without loosing your virginity. At Pepperdine which is a Church of Christ university, I have heard some pretty sophisticated discussion among 20 something women about all this technical virgin stuff. How they talk makes me shutter and I am glad I did not have to cope with that. A lot of why they do this seems to be there is no easy or acceptable way to say no if you are basically beyond the casual date. Their big debate is swallowing or no. What I hear is that it creates no bonding whatsoever with the people involved. The guy gets his rocks off and girl keeps her virginity and her reputation. My observations is that there is not much liking about this on either side. Just a quick and easy accomodation.

Then the other thing is that we know a whole lot more about sex and its imprinting than we ever did thanks to MRIs and chemical studies. True bonding takes place in the brain when sufficient triggers cause oxytocin to be released in the brain which is very bonding for women. Now if you keep young women from touching themselves, the first guy who knows enough or has enough control to get her really off, floods her brain with oxytocin and she thinks the one who can do this is the one she loves. Women who learn to masturbate well, generally can do a better job than any male. And she does not regard the male with awe because of it. However, this is the kicker--for a woman a good masturbatory orgasm does not "flood" her brain with bonding--it does release oxytocin but not to the extent of a sexual mating. Males also get oxytocin in their brains from having a good sexual mating. For men that happens only when they feel safe.

Men have missionary sex because it allowed them to see what was happening. Many tantric positions allow the male to see the penis doing its work and the reception it is receiving. It also allowed them to jump up and leave quickly which was often needed to save their lives from predators of their own kind, as well as, being attacked by lions, tigers, and bears who saw them being vulnerable to what they were doing. This has evolved in this day and age to a woman who is highly receptive to him mentally, emotionally, psychologically, as well as, physically. In other words, good sex for both people requires real intimacy something society is slowly robbing us of being capable of. Great sex is set off by the brain which usually requires more than a one night stand. For me learning how to be really intimate took a really long time. My experience shows me that to be really intimate you have to be a whole integrated person who is united in their own core of heart mind body and soul. Then you have to find another whole integrated adult who desires who you are. This is very difficult. Some people are lucky and grow together and get there. Most people settle for domestic tranquility. Some people keep searching. Some people are too afraid to find for themselves much less search for another and pragmatic sex works just fine for them. While I have not yet read the book there is such a thing in my mind as being an ethical s l u t for both sexes. That is my preverence because it is both honest and authentic which is a good beginning.

So why this thing about masturbation? Because no matter what the facts of anatomy or history tell us about who we are the catholic church and other fundamentalist religions fear anything that would sanction sex is for pleasure. If you sanction sex even for personal private pleasure you are loosening the bonds of repression and control by fear and guilt.

The DMT molecule is naturally made in our bodies and there is no zero zip nada evidence of it being addictive. But it does lead to crossing into other dimensions that change the whole nature of how an individual sees the world and himself. So why is it banned substance? Why is getting to do even research with it a highly difficult process? Why do people like the authors of this book live in Barcelona, Spain? Why is it only about 30 people can admitted to reading this thread or even being interested?

Why is movement feared? There is now definitive studies about the rejection of movement and dancing free form from the time of Constantine. Free form dancing only got reintroduced back into society with much trepidation and "rebellion" with modern dance about 100 years ago. Ballet and other forms of dance particularly in West is about disciplining concentrating the mind and the body to forms or proscribed movement.

god help us all --- sex, drugs, and rock roll -- evidence of the devil. Rebellion of those seeking to integrated their own heart mind body and souls.

[Kimberley]

Hello folks this is a very important thread!!! Much love!!! :grouphug:

[HORIZONS]

...sex, drugs, and rock roll -- evidence of the devil. Rebellion of those seeking to integrated their own heart mind body and souls.

Well you summed up my life motto when I was in High School and collage - and as the child of a Reverend (Preachers kid) you can bet I did not get any good education in any of these matters, and so I became a rebel with a cause - the cause to experience life and not be controlled. I would always state to others, "sex, drugs and rock-n-roll, but not necessarily in that order" - as each one was important to me in various ways. Rock music was my first love in my life, and I became a good Rock musician - drugs was next and played a big part in who I was at that time, then came the sex, and like my music I eventually learned that it really is an art, and that you need to be creative and giving to succeed, and if you are a right-brained artist like me you will continue to explore new avenues of technique to further your artistic expression. This is how it works for me anyway. This is why that even though I am in my 50's I still desire to grow in my understanding of these things - hence the thread on tantric sexuality I started. I want to continue to learn and grow in areas of my life that have to do with expression of beingness, and sexuality fits into this in a big way.

This is an important thread, and I agree that sexuality has been repressed!!! and that this repression has, and still is, the cause of much unneeded drama and problematic relationships in our lives, and in the world - some places more than others.

Not everyone is the same in their expression, and not everyone responds to sexuality in the same fashion as well, and because of this - and with the sexual mind programing that goes on - people do not really know or understand what they want, nor how to express themselves in the sexual relationship. Without this subject being openly taught in a mature matter, and with sexuality being hidden under the rug, so to speak, we have all kinds of concepts about sex, and most of them are unfounded and based on a lack of knowledge and understanding. This needs to change.

There is still much to learn and understand, but alas we live in such a closed and controlled society that this is a slow process, for this has been kept from us from those that believe they know better; and it seems to me that there is only a few individuals here and there that share in this desire to learn and grow - especially in this area - but maybe it will come out of the closet for good one day. True intimacy is a rare thing, and many are fearful of this high state of being - as many people fear what they do not understand.

Thank you all for sharing - much peace to you.

PS. I have stated for many years, in my desire to understand, that love is a commitment - a choice that we must consciously make.

[minkton]

True intimacy is a rare thing, and many are fearful of this high state of being - as many people fear what they do not understand.


PS. I have stated for many years, in my desire to understand, that love is a commitment - a choice that we must consciously make.

Hi Horizons. There is information about sex everywhere. It is devalued so that it is a fun recreation and No Strings Attached is practised widely and by many as if it were a law, and the amount of emotional zombification that happens as a result is a horror.. witness the amount of anti depressants, anti anxiety meds and eating disorders that young women routinely suffer as their psyche rebels against the tyranny of impersonality foisted upon them. There is no menu of choice, for so many. It is "friends with Benefits' or "open relationships" and often girls are railroaded in to those types of set ups ... and all this so often when people do not have the emotional maturity or true desire to be living in this way. My point here is in response to what you say about intimacy.

It is in the area of INTIMACY that the radical personal growth happens, and this is why sexual variety and dispersal of sexual attentions is being toted as "freedom" = because it shuts down feeling, atrophies the ability to trust,open, share and bond.

I feel sad that intimacy is on the decrease to such a startling degree. It is easy to arrange a zipless **** for every night of the week. But find someone to be intimate with... yikes. needle haystack.

I speak as someone with teenage children and lots of friends with children in the same age group, and someone aware of divorced people trying to strike up relationships and finding instead interpersonal exploitation and sexual tourism
as the norm.

If only people could actually visually see the entirety of a person, including their grief stored in their lung tissues and their pain in their heart centres, instead of just looking at the gym - body and the hairstyle.. maybe humanity would be less cavalier of one another.

Again, I have to state that I dont come from a sexually repressive social group or background, so my experience isnt one in which me or my peers have had to fight to overcome negative sexual conditioning, this probably makes my 'take' on the current sexual scene different from someone being relieved to see natural impulses not repressed. But I think natural impulses in the realm of the heart and very repressed, and the movemnt is about cutting a whole human being into parts so that their heart and soul are spliced and compartmentalised away from their genitals.

[another bob]

A thoughtful article from 2003 by Bernie Prior about the union of man and woman, based first and foremost on Honesty:

I say that truth or enlightenment - the enlightened state - is available in union as man and woman. Why else would there be man and woman? And for me to make such a statement means it can’t be something that I’ve read or heard from some other Master, it must be something that I know in the living experience of my own life – in other words, a holy, wholly relationship between man and woman and who it is at the core of our being. I must have experienced this with woman for I am a man. This is how I come to know what I know – through direct experience - and the only way that I’ll ever reach you is to live what I know. Living love, living truth is the only way that you’ll ever reach anyone - reach your children’s, children’s children.

Now if we have a look in our own lives and we don’t judge anything that we see - we just look, and we look on the world scene - then we are going to see what’s really manifesting on this Earth is a reflection of how man and woman are living together. For me, as I’m travelling this globe, that is the core of what I’m teaching -that man and woman can set this Earth free if only they would know what they are doing together, if only they would come home to core honesty as individuals. If they would honestly return to that place in themselves as Man and Woman - not from a conceptual idea, but from a living reality - they would set this Earth free.

So what does that mean? Have a look man and woman at how you are living. Do you really know what Man is, man? Or are you living just from what your father’s told you, what you’ve read, and all those other forces inside your body that have been dictating the way you live, the way you respond to life and to woman, the way you respond to yourself? Aren’t you reacting just from a bunch of influences, not from the core of your Being as a man?

And woman, have you yet discovered what it is to be Woman? Beyond all your emotional influences, beyond what your parents, and your mother lived - particularly your mother and your grandmother - and beyond all your picking and choosing? And what about the influences of all those men who have shared with you intimately? Do you really know what it is to be Woman? Can you let go of all of that to find out what it is to be at the core as Woman?

If man and woman lived in a real union where both were now truly prepared to let go of their self-concern, to let go of their egoity, what would happen? What would happen if we even let go of any idea of gender? What I say would happen is this; you would be. If you let go of all ideas of who you are as man or woman you would enter being. Then - as you are wearing a particular body, wearing a particular pole of consciousness, a particular guardianship of love, male or female - being would naturally flow into your body as man or woman in a true expression of what it is to be Man and what it is to be Woman. You would return to that place where there is no personal agenda, to that unknown state of pure consciousness.

Of course you can’t do that as a doing, but through simple, living honesty you can drop what you’re holding onto - in your love of being, the being within each other - and let love bring you both home. If you have any agenda whatsoever you’ll fail. You’ll even live together and just compromise. You’ll just live in a dream world. You’ll build yet another world of personal wants, personal movements and self-satisfaction. But maybe you’ll have had enough of that by now? Maybe you want only the reality of that which is absolutely real? If you’ve had just the tiniest touch of reality, you know - for when you are touched by love it’s unmistakable. It undoes everything that you ever thought you were. It undoes every place to go and every place that you’ve come from. It’s an un-doer. It completely undoes you - as an ego expression, as the old man and the old woman. Then you recognise the sweetness of your being.

To know the being is a true potential in a real relationship for one who is devoted to absolute truth and not to personal agenda – in other words, what you can get from each other or what you’re going to give to each other in the future. To find yourself at the core of being as man and woman, to live from that place and express it, you must see that you have no future. You have no future. What you have is completely and utterly here now, right where you are. That’s the door into the eternal. That’s the door into the full flavour of life - where you are right now, in this reflection together.

Man and woman must live together from the Mystery - that which doesn’t have a date when you got together, or a date when he left you, when she left you, but that which lives from the unknown, completely and utterly now - and yet is able to live in this world. Living from that alone will bring new life to this world and a new manifestation - first as an individual and then - if the Will allows - as a complete expression of a new humanity. A new humanity now in beingness and not in egoity, in union and not in separation, in the absolute knowing and living of love. Not love as emotion or some mental idea but love as the true state of being of man and woman. All this is available in man and woman, completely available in a real relationship together - a way of living in absoluteness, in the holiness of truly being God-Man and God-Woman. But it’s earned. And it’s earned through self letting go. Letting go of the distortion. Letting go of all those ideas that you have as a woman or as a man. Letting go of all of that and being fresh and new in every moment, no matter how cloudy your mind and emotions might get.

It takes a lot of honesty. And it takes a lot of truly seeing in this moment what is absolutely real. The only way you’ll ever see what truly is real is complete honesty. It’s so simple. Honesty is the key to love. Honesty to your Self is the only thing that cuts deep enough to open you to what is living as truth inside you. The power of pure honesty is the healing power of the entire universe. In being honest to God, being honest to that little place you know is true in you, you’ll enter into that that you really are - the cupbearer that’s bringing the living spirit untainted with conditioning to this Earth living as Man or Woman.


:yo:

[Kimberley]

Bob,

Thank you for your lovely reminder of how to live in the now and its connection with infinity!

Much love to us all, always and in all way!! :grouphug:

[HORIZONS]

Living love, living truth is the only way that you’ll ever reach anyone - reach your children’s, children’s children.

Thank you another bob! This is a tremendously enlightened statement!!!


It takes a lot of honesty. And it takes a lot of truly seeing in this moment what is absolutely real. The only way you’ll ever see what truly is real is complete honesty. It’s so simple. Honesty is the key to love. Honesty to your Self is the only thing that cuts deep enough to open you to what is living as truth inside you. The power of pure honesty is the healing power of the entire universe. In being honest to God, being honest to that little place you know is true in you, you’ll enter into that that you really are - the cupbearer that’s bringing the living spirit untainted with conditioning to this Earth living as Man or Woman.


Great article bob - thanks for sharing this - I think I'll save a copy and save it in my memoirs for future reference, and to pass on to my children’s, children’s children.

[another bob]

deleted due to blanket wetness . . .:p

[Carmody]

And while oral sex is a bugaboo why have they not gone after that with the vengence of masturbation and birth control? Well for one in the South where all this begins in the US, they had concocted this idea that oral sex was never mentioned or described in the bible and therefore, it was't a sex sin. Thus, you could be satisfied without loosing your virginity. At Pepperdine which is a Church of Christ university, I have heard some pretty sophisticated discussion among 20 something women about all this technical virgin stuff. How they talk makes me shutter and I am glad I did not have to cope with that. A lot of why they do this seems to be there is no easy or acceptable way to say no if you are basically beyond the casual date. Their big debate is swallowing or no. What I hear is that it creates no bonding whatsoever with the people involved. The guy gets his rocks off and girl keeps her virginity and her reputation. My observations is that there is not much liking about this on either side. Just a quick and easy accomodation.

anthropologically, genetically.. and thus socially...the southern states (and the USA) are based on a large number of very problematic and wrong headed puritans that were literally kicked out of England, as they were more trouble than they were worth.

This has cascaded today into this weakness of individualism and reasoned/seasoned thought, that is a bizarre twist... done as an old west gunslinging individualist egotistical paranoia, combined with very odd social structure of killing those who do not conform to the norm. It is obvious to those outside of the USA, that it is writ large among certain groups of US citizens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritan

[EnergyGardener]

Another Bob.

I'll agree to stay off this thread if you do.

Nothing like two pious old guys throwing a wet blanket on a women's sex thread.

[Kimberley]

Another Bob.

I'll agree to stay off this thread if you do.

Nothing like two pious old guys throwing a wet blanket on a women's sex thread.

This is NOT a women's sex thread and males are welcome and encouraged to participate!!

We are at a time of balancing the divine feminine and the divine masculine....so all genders are welcome here!!!

And all genders are needed to move into the new...

Much love to us all!!! :grouphug:

[Rantaak]

Some people find sex with consenting adults, unnatural. They look for other outlets.
Some people find sobriety unnatural. They like drugs.
Others find the whole world unnatural. They like killing.
It's just there nature right?
Just because it's our nature doesn't make it right. :)

Some people find freedom unnatural. They like to tell other people what's "right". On planet earth, we have masturbation police. :usa2:

But more poignantly, sobriety is drugs. Consciousness is directly linked to the chemical phenomena undergone by the brain - with the higher self as the piloting guide and ultimate author. Natural (endogenous) drugs are natural. Unnatural (synthetic) drugs aren't, unless they metabolize into an endogenous compound.

Killing is an impulse driven by lower chakras - the advancement of spirituality allows us to overcome these baser desires.

Only in a world of duality do we believe in such nonsense as, "right and wrong." These are figments of the brain.

In a world of unity, everything is. :smokin:
There is universal right and wrong.


Not in my universe.




And accountability for ones actions is paramount.



If by "accountability for" you mean "being aware of," then sure, but this point seems irrelevant.



You live in this world of duality if you don't like it then ascend already :)


What a clever way of asking someone to die! Tee-hee!
But it also shows that you have a predisposed notion of ascension which may create difficulty down the line for you. Death is not the only way out.



And as far as me I refuse to be unified with a serial rapist or murder or well I can't get too deep into it, people get there feelings hurt

This is why the world is at it is today. Unity is ecstasy just as much as it is suffering and treachery (and well, technically everything else too)
If you demonize the other, you separate yourself from Unity. It is an impulse of fear that we are all in the process of overcoming.

[Moz]

another bob: thanks for the overview. It is much appreciated.

A big hug,
Moz

[Kimberley]

***********************

I love this... it fits this thread to a T ...

Neil Young and Bruce Springsteen: Sexy And I Know It (3/2/12)


http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/neil-young-and-bruce-springsteen-sexy-and-i-know-it-3212/1388766#.T3B3zIgtyy8.facebook

[Seikou-Kishi]

You live in this world of duality if you don't like it then ascend already :)


What a clever way of asking someone to die! Tee-hee!
But it also shows that you have a predisposed notion of ascension which may create difficulty down the line for you. Death is not the only way out.

It was you who imputed death to Solstyse's post. If death is not the only way out, how are you so sure he was 'asking' you to die when he said ascend? You are not debating with Solstyse but with what you imagine Solstyse is saying. That will only create difficulty down the line for you.

[EnergyGardener]

Another Bob.

I'll agree to stay off this thread if you do.

Nothing like two pious old guys throwing a wet blanket on a women's sex thread.

This is NOT a women's sex thread and males are welcome and encouraged to participate!!

We are at a time of balancing the divine feminine and the divine masculine....so all genders are welcome here!!!

And all genders are needed to move into the new...

Much love to us all!!! :grouphug:

Ladies and Gents (including Another Bob),

I was sort of kidding, sort of... I just thought if I'd pop back on with an apology for my wet blanket on Another Bob, perhaps now he'll jump back on with more wisdom on monogamy and such; I agreed with everything he wrote.:hug: I really am done here, but looking forward to more interesting and good information....

How is the author and her new job?

[songsfortheotherkind]

There is universal right and wrong.

Not in my universe.

I like your universe. Feels a little like mine... :)






You live in this world of duality if you don't like it then ascend already :)


What a clever way of asking someone to die! Tee-hee!
But it also shows that you have a predisposed notion of ascension which may create difficulty down the line for you. Death is not the only way out. [/QUOTE]

And for some of us, ascension has nothing to do with being non-corporeal. It's a wonderful universe we're playing in, innit.. :)




If you demonize the other, you separate yourself from Unity. It is an impulse of fear that we are all in the process of overcoming.

*nodding* As someone who has worked through her own rape- and then had to work through the tons of baggage that *society* likes to pin on something like this- I can only say from a personal perspective that it is indeed in the embracing and expanding into the impulse of fear, the way into dissolving it, that the fullness of the lesson is apparent, on so many levels.

Thank you for offering your perspective, I find it resonant on many levels. :)

[write4change]

Another Bob,

I sincerely regret not responding to the post you deleted immediately but it so beautifully blew me away that I had to go and meditate it for a while. What even more deeply regret is gardner thinking it was the correct thing to do and both of you thinking this is a woman's thread.

I have been overjoyed to your comments bouying me up to carry on. Telling what I know in way that might make it more known is only by telling direct stories---something I find very hard to do. After reading Bob's beautiful piece I thought about resorting to fiction but the reality is that fiction is all over the place in all ways and we have not made much progress with it.

The other thing that happened to me is that Friday afternoon, I saw the Hunger Games and I have not been the same since. I went out and bought all the books and it took me 14 hours to read all three of them with dozing and eating in the rain with the cat. I am still sorting all the feelings raging in me. I found these books to be profound and I my age what I was faced with is that I have been slowly drawn into living the Hunger Games since I was 20. It was there in my face and I believed the propaganda. I wonder what a young person sees---and if that is why these books are so popular. It is now the young who see it all so clearly.

I did not understand the true importance of what is being done on this thread until now. As I go forward on here, you who have never known me and will never know me---I am raw. Ripping the veil from my eyes has ripped the years of shielding I have learned to do so well in this society.

[Mike]

Another Bob,

I sincerely regret not responding to the post you deleted immediately but it so beautifully blew me away that I had to go and meditate it for a while. What even more deeply regret is gardner thinking it was the correct thing to do and both of you thinking this is a woman's thread.

I have been overjoyed to your comments bouying me up to carry on. Telling what I know in way that might make it more known is only by telling direct stories---something I find very hard to do. After reading Bob's beautiful piece I thought about resorting to fiction but the reality is that fiction is all over the place in all ways and we have not made much progress with it.

The other thing that happened to me is that Friday afternoon, I saw the Hunger Games and I have not been the same since. I went out and bought all the books and it took me 14 hours to read all three of them with dozing and eating in the rain with the cat. I am still sorting all the feelings raging in me. I found these books to be profound and I my age what I was faced with is that I have been slowly drawn into living the Hunger Games since I was 20. It was there in my face and I believed the propaganda. I wonder what a young person sees---and if that is why these books are so popular. It is now the young who see it all so clearly.

I did not understand the true importance of what is being done on this thread until now. As I go forward on here, you who have never known me and will never know me---I am raw. Ripping the veil from my eyes has ripped the years of shielding I have learned to do so well in this society.



a post like this makes it so regrettable that one is so hopelessly behind in a thread. i'm going to see the movie tmrrw Jai, and catch up on the thread as well!

[another bob]

Another Bob,

I sincerely regret not responding to the post you deleted immediately but it so beautifully blew me away that I had to go and meditate it for a while. What even more deeply regret is gardner thinking it was the correct thing to do and both of you thinking this is a woman's thread.


Good Evening, my Friend!

I don't really think so much in terms of gender, having recognized the transparency of such a view, but I did not want to interrupt the flow of such a wonderful thread, which EG initially indicated I had done. We have since come to an amicable understanding, but I sense a general edginess and acute sensitivity in the forum at this time, due to various member resignations and so forth, so I am being extra careful. If you'd like a re-post of that piece on Desire, happy to oblige, though perhaps the moment's past, so perhaps best left to a future thread.

In any case, I really appreciate you sharing your recent experiences, and the great heart you express in the midst of it all! It's what's best about this place, and far more important than endless tracts, head trips, and speculations about spirituality and conspiracy, imho (not that those things don't have a place too).

Blessings to you!

:yo:

[EnergyGardener]

Another Bob,

I sincerely regret not responding to the post you deleted immediately but it so beautifully blew me away that I had to go and meditate it for a while. What even more deeply regret is gardner thinking it was the correct thing to do and both of you thinking this is a woman's thread.


Good Evening, my Friend!

I don't really think so much in terms of gender, having recognized the transparency of such a view, but I did not want to interrupt the flow of such a wonderful thread, which EG initially indicated I had done. We have since come to an amicable understanding, but I sense a general edginess and acute sensitivity in the forum at this time, due to various member resignations and so forth, so I am being extra careful. If you'd like a re-post of that piece on Desire, happy to oblige, though perhaps the moment's past, so perhaps best left to a future thread.

In any case, I really appreciate you sharing your recent experiences, and the great heart you express in the midst of it all! It's what's best about this place, and far more important than endless tracts, head trips, and speculations about spirituality and conspiracy, imho (not that those things don't have a place too).

Blessings to you!

:yo:

Another Bob, please repost. Please!

[another bob]

Desire Gets A Bad Rap

(A Quartet)


1.

"God is in himself so exalted that he is beyond the reach of either knowledge or desire. Desire extends further than anything that can be grasped by knowledge. It is wider than the whole of the heavens, than all angels, even though everything that lives on earth is contained in the spark of a single angel. Desire is wide, immeasurably so. But nothing that knowledge can grasp or desire can want, is God. Where knowledge and desire end, there is darkness, and there God shines." ~ Meister Eckhart


The difference, if it exists at all, between the common man and the saint, might merely be to what degree one thinks of reasons for complaint, while the other knows there really ain’t.

Take Desire, for example:

It’s judged by some as deadly trap, and hence it tends to get a bad rap.

From another angle of vision, however, desire could be appreciated as a loving gift the Source of desire grants itself so it can play as two-not-two at being and becoming.

Summer winds sift through a lifted window, lazily drifting across our playful concupiscence with neither judgment nor disdain. We smile and fall into each other -- free of the past, the present, the future.

This is how to recognize the motion of light for the superb artistry it is – one unseen breeze ignites a thousand poems, and desire comes full circle.

Hunger and satisfaction both, we murmur no complaint -- life need not be in conflict with itself, clinging to either purity or taint.

Desire brought us here, desire sweeps our fragrant petals airborne in winds of impersonal intent. In the letting go, it fulfills its purpose, and everything sighs with joy.

While this soft morning breeze scatters God as prasad over the fertility fields of its own innocent yearning, we will float in the transparent womb of unspeakable light, ovulating new incarnations.




2.

"As is your devotion, so is your liberation." ~ Bhagavan Nityananda



Everyone can understand happiness. Everyone knows exactly what it’s like to be perfectly happy – how else to explain the common and uncommon pursuit of it?

If we didn’t already know, then what’s the search all about? If you don’t already know what you’re looking for, why bother looking?

On the other hand, if already known, why seek it, why not simply . . . be it?

This happiness is not any known ecstasy of body or mind, nor does it exclude any ecstasy of body/mind.

We know this by letting go of knowing – discarding all that merely passes through, obscuring our original innocence.

Our fluid union is the drowning point of knowing in the waterfall of the mysterious unknown.

We live there, pooling into a vibrant living energy no poet can dream words for, nor scholar analyze.

Everyone lives there, but most imagine they are living someplace other, someplace that reciprocally supports a sense of being a someone with yet some other place they long to be.

Not we – you are the exquisite presence of the Mystery to me, right here, right now, before and after forever!

This Mystery can take the form of an unbounded ecstasy by reincarnating as everyone and everything, just as they are.

It's simply that we like to return the favor by letting what is simply be what it is, and refrain from interfering.

I see you, you see me. Tongues touch. There is general agreement, then it becomes more specific.

Since we were made for each other, we honor the Designer by disappearing into this irresistible Design.

Over and over and over again, we lose ourselves where the Woodbine twine!




3.

"The way you make Love is the way God will be with you." ~ Rumi



I begin by simply appearing as myself, already in Love with you -- you appear to me as myself, already always Love.

This is immensely arousing.

In the mutuality of our magnetic attraction we are drawn into the monosyllabic vernacular of this loving, the bodily bliss of original desire, a synchronous release of primordial desire into our immortal bodiless-ness.

The body does not resist. Death is irresistible -- it is a bliss of the body.

It dies into itself, this moment, moment, moment . . .

This is what it wants -- this wanting, this death.

Tongues dance with each other in a language tenderly translated by the hands to touch, the breath to commingling light, skin grown taut yet supple with our liquid radiance sheening, hearts ablaze with keening, bodies shining towards each other, blinding each other in light’s own desire, the play of mindless embodiment, consciousness yielded to its own bliss, we let go as it expands, yielding the fruit of its own deliciousness, the suchness of this first kiss, this messenger of bliss, flesh to fire, fuel for fire, fire spinal, full frontal flame, rising, brilliantly, into a rare consuming darkness for which there is no name.

We are not becoming God, God is becoming us. The way we make love is the shape of our divinity -- something selfless slides into itself, we disappear, washed clear in the tidal streaming light brimming from our soul eyes -- I know you, there is only one, you are the one not afraid, not other than what moves exquisitely in ancient rhythm, ancient rhyme, knowing without knowing . . .

You are me, Beloved.

Beloved, I am You.




4.

At night if I feel a divine loneliness I tear the doors off Love's mansion and wrestle God onto the floor. He becomes so pleased with Hafiz and says, "Our hearts should do this more." ~Hafiz



If you’re longing tonight for this rapture, here – let me bring it to you, an offering at your altar of desire. I will worship there by stretching myself so plushly over your innocent longing you will plead, “Don’t stop!”

I won’t -- I can’t. You are too beautiful to resist!

Loving this suchness of you, I am drawn to the heat of your serene intensity, your breathless magnetism, the call of your wanting, wanting to be free of this wanting, not wanting anything but this, to never be spilt from this drowning, this fragrance inescapable, the touch indelible on the heart, the taste of sweet spring water gushing, rushing to itself with arms wide open, pulsing with that for which we've yearned.

I place my head in the hollow of your chest, and See. What I see, you Are. What you see looking back at you, I Am.

Between these two no space exists, no time, no memory, no wanting – desire has become the verb of our eternal glance, a transmission without distance, the word that breaks the trance.

These words of love for all sentient beings – music trailing behind the vanishing forms of us, softly crying


“YES!”

[Kimberley]

I am resurrecting this thread...

I just discovered something that shows how not all cultures have been subjected to sexual suppression... check this out...


“The Kanamara Matsuri (かなまら祭り “Festival of the Steel Phallus”) is an annual Shinto fertility festival held in Kawasaki, Japan in spring held in Kanayama shrine (金山神社). The exact dates vary: the main festivities fall on the first Sunday in April. The penis forms the central theme of the event that is reflected everywhere — in illustrations, candy, carved vegetables, decorations, and a mikoshi parade.


only 1 minute

87c33URq3Iw

only 5 minutes

kI2mQCVUnlI


check this link out: http://avaxnews.com/wow/Utamaro_Festival_In_Kawasaki.html

and this one: http://www.wordpress.tokyotimes.org/?p=2088

much love!!!

[Kimberley]

And I want to add that this popped up when I was doing a search to find out what time it is currently in Tokyo Japan???

The universe cracks me up !!! And I am grateful for that!

[nearing]

Another Bob.

I'll agree to stay off this thread if you do.

Nothing like two pious old guys throwing a wet blanket on a women's sex thread.

This is NOT a women's sex thread and males are welcome and encouraged to participate



We are at a time of balancing the divine feminine and the divine masculine....so all genders are welcome here!!!

And all genders are needed to move into the new...

Much love to us all!!! :grouphug:

Ladies and Gents (including Another Bob),

I was sort of kidding, sort of... I just thought if I'd pop back on with an apology for my wet blanket on Another Bob, perhaps now he'll jump back on with more wisdom on monogamy and such; I agreed with everything he wrote.:hug: I really am done here, but looking forward to more interesting and good information....

How is the author and her new job?

Hi all, so sorry to be neglecting this thread! Work is really sapping my energy and I am finding it difficult to find the time for any extracurricular activities except exercise(needed for sanity)!

I am so glad I can leave the thread in capable hands.

[Kimberley]

Much love to you nearing and all!!!

[pilotsimone]

deleted post

[Kimberley]

I don’t really understand what this thread is…and maybe that’s the best thing about it. I just know there is so much discussion to have around sexuality. And I’ve been waiting for a forum to start an intelligent conversation.

Bravo, Avalon! This is big, big, big! :clap2:

pilotsimone thank you for sharing and thank you for healing...

You asked what this thread is about... did you view the video in post # 1 of this thread?

Much love!!

[pilotsimone]

deleted post

[Kimberley]

This thread is whatever you want to make of it...for me it is about talking about how sexuality has been a point of control and manipulation for most of us.

And is a discussion about how we can transcend the suppression that has been laid down for us via law and religion and such!!.
xo

[Antagenet]

Hi Arrowwind,

That's a phrase I haven't heard of before... PLURAL MARRIAGE
I suppose that was my ideal, what I truly wanted from adolescence...
a small group of people, say 4 or 6, who were in a marriage,
faithful within the group, not exposing the others to STD's from outsiders,
and all raising children together. I sure would have preferred to have
more than two parents! I sure would have preferred to have more than
one sexual mate. I sure would have preferred to have an economic base
that was more than one or two people. I sure would have enjoyed
discussing everyday life and being intimate in every way with more than
one partner. Hmmmm.. maybe it's not too late :-)


[COLOR=darkorchid]
[COLOR=#9932cc]Actually plural marriage is very attractive on many levels. Women often can emotionally sustain each other much better than a man can support a woman.
[COLOR=#9932cc]Sisters has always been quite fulfilling for me. .. and I have had signficant closeness emotionally and intellectually with woman, yet have no sexual attraction to speak of. Yet I do have an attraction. I am attracted to beauty ... women are very beautiful.. but I dont get off on it. Men are beautiful too in other ways... a strong male with an open heart is very beautiful (and sexy)

[Antagenet]

[QUOTE=HORIZONS;455303]

It is "friends with Benefits' or "open relationships" and often girls are railroaded in to those types of set ups ... and all this so often when people do not have the emotional maturity or true desire to be living in this way. My point here is in response to what you say about intimacy.

It is in the area of INTIMACY that the radical personal growth happens, and this is why sexual variety and dispersal of sexual attentions is being toted as "freedom" = because it shuts down feeling, atrophies the ability to trust,open, share and bond.

I feel sad that intimacy is on the decrease to such a startling degree. It is easy to arrange a zipless **** for every night of the week. But find someone to be intimate with... yikes. needle haystack.

I speak as someone with teenage children and lots of friends with children in the same age group, and someone aware of divorced people trying to strike up relationships and finding instead interpersonal exploitation and sexual tourism
as the norm.

If only people could actually visually see the entirety of a person, including their grief stored in their lung tissues and their pain in their heart centres, instead of just looking at the gym - body and the hairstyle.. maybe humanity would be less cavalier of one another.

Again, I have to state that I dont come from a sexually repressive social group or background, so my experience isnt one in which me or my peers have had to fight to overcome negative sexual conditioning, this probably makes my 'take' on the current sexual scene different from someone being relieved to see natural impulses not repressed. But I think natural impulses in the realm of the heart and very repressed, and the movemnt is about cutting a whole human being into parts so that their heart and soul are spliced and compartmentalised away from their genitals.

Thanks for posting this. I have lived outside the USSA for decades, but it seemed the culture was headed in a more impersonal direction. How sad that intimacy and truly valuing other people is on the wane. Im not sure that is so true outside the USSA. Hollywood and the advertising cartel have hyped up sex to use for profit and also I think the ELite CONTROLLERS have also wanted to destroy people's ability to bond (families) in a divide and conquer strategy to have us all working, slaving for them. I think real social healing will come with an economic collapse that leaves people with less hours of work and more time to be together getting to know one another. Let's hope.

[nearing]

It does seem that that kind of upbringing would be most beneficial for a human. It also seems that the adults living in such a community would prosper.

Given the times we have been livings in culturally, maybe not ideal, but since we are ascending into an ever higher age every moment, I see how it could work now or soon.

[9eagle9]

I would be nice to have a wife to pick a fight with when the husband wasn't willing.

Would be funny to watch a husband attempting to have a fight with all those wives because you know, woman always take sides with other woman. Not necessarily because the other woman is right, but just out of general principal that if a tree falls in the forest a man is wrong somewhere and its usually the closest one.

I'll hold out for having six husbands and they can all wait on me hand and foot. The whole six wives waiting on one man is imbalanced and my way is, of course, (of course) right and better.

Now to put this new world order to purpose right away, one of you men go get me a beer .

[DeDukshyn]

made me giggle that's all ... =)

[Chester]

I finished reading the entire book about three weeks ago. If I had had access to this book when I was young I would be a different person in many ways. Maybe a much happier one. Nancy's take on this after quite a bit of experience gets my nod for how most people really are when totally comfortable being honest.

That being said part of the problem is there is a huge range of sexuality that most people are not allowed to consider in a rational way. There are people very happy being asexual, true hermaphrodites, as well as, once a year, once a month, once a week, and once a day kind of people. Being married to someone who does not fit you does not feel good.

I found this book so good, I copied some pages of it and have been sending it snal mail to people I really want to dialogue with.

In the book, it seriously addresses intense primate studies over the last 40 years. Gibbons are not that much like us. Our close cousins are chimpanzes, gorillas, and bonobos. There is much talk about DNA in the book. There is much current research still on the tribes of Oceania etc.

It is my hope that this book rocks off the walls of the world for the next year or so. A second in already on its way. By the way, the guy has a mate of many years who co wrote the book with him. She is a beautiful Indian woman. One of the things the book discusses is how the Western world has forced every other society to do its take on the way things ought to be and how deeply many resent it.

Those who have seen the so called sex temples of India, one of the statues used to provoke the Western ICK is a man mounted by a woman who is supported on each side by another woman who is also masturbating. In India this was once sacred--- not obscene. To do this well, in the right way for the right reasons, requires a kind of love and understanding the West has no concept and absolutely refused to consider that it has any validity. These were not orgies but ceremonial spiritual events that happened out of the context of every day life.

I have studied sex all my life and I am tantric master. I once wanted to do a thread on spiritual sexuality but was told by the mods that it was inappropriate and that we have children on this site. A year ago that infuriated me. Today, I agree. The childish behavior often displayed here by many a so called adult makes a subject of maturity requiring open minds and seeking new and different knowledge definitely inappropriate.

I refuse to get into whose ideas or beliefs of any kind are right or wrong but I do continually read to understand people's thinking and processes. The Darwin's delimenas and extensive notes that were not published are also considered in the book. On a whole religion is avoided. If religion is your basis for choosing your sexuality, then you have already decided how and are no longer interested in the why and therefore, you should not participate in this discussion which is not based on any religion but notes 1000s of years of ancient sexual practices.

If you can consider that everything we were taught about the pyramids was wrong, why not sexuality as a major culture factor is mostly wrong. Religion above all uses sex to repress thinking and instill guilt. The easiest way to raising your vibes and experiencing deep connection within and accessing your internal DNA is sex. In my life, I have found that to be an absolute fact. I don't preach it, instill it, or defend it. I just allow myself to know who I am deeply that way. I am so glad this book will give more people permission to try that path.

I cannot recommend this book more I am now going to watch the clip and maybe I will comment more.

One of the top 10 posts I ever read on this forum - entirely true...

I had to leave the US and move to the Caribbean and Latin America to discover freedom from all the BS programming the US (and other countries of similar sexual idiocy) - I eventually studied Tantra and met several practitioners. You would be amazed some of the folks who have found freedom through this path. One of the benefits, I haven't been to a doctor in more than a dozen years... I am 54 now and happy, healthy and feel like a 25 year old.

[Kimberley]

I am happy to see this thread come back to life!! I like this thread more than any other thread I have partaken in...

I feel that sexual repression is the TOP form of control on this planet.

I personally am past my procreative years.. I am now in my co-creative years with my sexual energy. I am 54 years young and no longer have procreation abilities (thank goodness). Although I do still have STRONG co-creative sexual energy that is fabulous to experience.

Much love to us all! :grouphug:

[Flash]

It is my understanding from reading much research that while cromagnon man and neanderthals existed together for about 10,000 years, there is no neanderthal DNA contained in homo sapiens today.

I have read this so much that it is now an assumption. In the wake of all the new anthropology we are discoverying, if someone knows differently I wish they would post with a link.

Wrong. It has been found recently that europeans And all non sub saharians have about four percent neanderthal genes in them. Proper cells had to be found of the neanderthal before analysis were conclusive.

http://http://news.discovery.com/human/genetics-neanderthal-110718.html

[Chester]

I am happy to see this thread come back to life!! I like this thread more than any other thread I have partaken in...

I feel that sexual repression is the TOP form of control on this planet.

I personally am past my procreative years.. I am now in my co-creative years with my sexual energy. I am 54 years young and no longer have procreation abilities (thank goodness). Although I do still have STRONG co-creative sexual energy that is fabulous to experience.

Much love to us all! :groughug:

Ohhh I forgot to add... I got snipped at age 38 after my third child - for any males who don't know... there is zero difference in "experience" of sex.

A medical fact (so they say these days) is that it is very wise for a male to ejaculate at least once a day. This is important for ensuring a healthy prostate gland which we all know is famous for becoming cancerous. Most women I know who have been in relationships of lengthiness do not want to have sex daily which is certainly fine yet I have found many instances where some women get upset over the male counterpart if he participates in masturbation assisted by media available on the internet for example. This trend also tends to be something that proliferates more in the US, Canada and the UK and some other western countries that are susceptible to the main stream media influence that does the following.

If one watches TV shows and movies such as so called comedies and even the drama shows, one is inundated with massive sexual overtones. There are constant jokes or innuendos that on the one hand point out the absolutely electrifying sexuality of women (rarely but occasionally a male and if a male he is almost always simultaneously depicted as a sexual brute with little intelligence) and on the other hand via "news" media, point out the atrocious behaviors of those who act upon their sexuality which falls outside of the programmed acceptable norms of American society.

We all know how sex is used constantly in advertising. Yet when a "serious" media regurgitation such as a story where a female teacher has sex with a student, say, 15 years old - she gets castigated by the police, the media and most of the opinion of the public and usually ends up in prison. I am not saying that what she and the 15 year old boy did was or is "right" but it is entirely understandable and should be treated as an illness of the disease one can be infected by via the messages we are given by our lovely media. At most, the teacher should be treated via counseling.

Case in point is the newest Adam Sandler - "That's My Boy" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zQaKpHZ8HFA

which is based on this exact scenario. I actually went and saw the movie (that's how bored I am as I am in Texas at the moment - I normally live out of the country) - There are hundreds of references to everything sexual. The movie paints Adam Sandler to be a hero for his role when 15 in having sex with his teacher who, in the movie, was sent to prison for 30 years but still remained a hot, sexy woman (as the "older" teacher was played by a sexy Susan Sarandon).

We allow the media to create our thinking and based on the double messages given (the messages from media such as the movie above and then the messages by the "news" of the "reality" of how evil someone is that they actually acted out the scenario) where 99% of Americans are torn in the middle of the dynamic where they are afraid to act and yet obsess all day long that they don't.

This is just a tiny example of how we are controlled and one of the biggest reasons I had to leave the country 15 years ago and rarely return.

justone

Ohhh and you know how what in the US is seen as "sexual harassment" is handled in most offices in most of Latin America? For one, no one I have ever encountered calls sexual hinting "harassment." Many act upon it. They have places all over that are like US motels with big fences around them. You drive your car inside, get a room and then believe it or not, drive the car right into the room and shut the door. For the woman or man who is hinted towards that is not interested, they simply say, "Sorry... not interested," and life goes on. All the adults know these types of things go on and its not just the men... women are almost as prolific in participation of sex on the side. I found the environment far more healthy and is one of the primary reasons I no longer live in the USA, I can't stand the repression.

no wonder the following...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hooters-style-restaurants-experiencing-mini-134315225.html

[Flash]

As a French speaking person, I must say that I do find Americans very conservatives, almost to an extreme with sex, being religiously forbidden in one part and yet, absolutely on every television show one may see with all kind of unhealthy inuendos.

You are right about South America, Justoneman, its is much freer, as well as Turkey (believe it or not, lots of Muslim countries are much freer on sex than Americans).

However, I noted something worth mentioning imho. Freer sex is, less responsible men seem to be towards their children - reproduction has not consequences, at least for men. I do not know if I am right or wrong about this, this is a feeling I got while living in Central America.

As for the motesl South American styles, this is true that you get in the room in your car, almost (not always), after huge doors are opened, but I am far from sure that this is always on a volontary basis from the women or children perspective. It is very easy to get someone in and then force them outisde of anyone views or attention. I have also witnessed surely as much violence towards women in Central America as there is in North America for sure..

The "sorry not interested part" is because you were an American men and respected it. Once a woman get into the car of a South American, sorry or not, interested or not, she is in for the rest, willfully or not. She cannot change her mind on the way. If she does, she will get raped most of the time. She had given permission by getting in the car to start with, this is how it is perceived. You are still the woman owned by a man (meaning with no rights by and for yourself), in SA or Middle East, do not forget it when you get there (of course, not aaaalll Central or South American man are like this, but a majority).

However, for a good side or a good point, flirting is part of life in Central/South America and in Turkey as well, and is seen favorably by women as long as respect is also there. Women do not get offended for being openly fliirted and commented on. South American and Turkish women often feel very lost when they come in America and are not openly flirted anymore. They often go depressed thinking they have lost their feminine charm.

Talking here from experience and my South/Central American and Turkish friends comments, friends who are women

[Chester]

As a French speaking person, I must say that I do find Americans very conservatives, almost to an extreme with sex, being religiously forbidden in one part and yet, absolutely on every television show one may see with all kind of unhealthy inuendos.

You are right about South America, Justoneman, its is much freer, as well as Turkey (believe it or not, lots of Muslim countries are much freer on sex than Americans).

However, I noted something worth mentioning imho. Freer sex is, less responsible men seem to be towards their children - reproduction has not consequences, at least for men. I do not know if I am right or wrong about this, this is a feeling I got while living in Central America.

As for the motesl South American styles, this is true that you get in the room in your car, almost (not always), after huge doors are opened, but I am far from sure that this is always on a volontary basis from the women or children perspective. It is very easy to get someone in and then force them outisde of anyone views or attention. I have also witnessed surely as much violence towards women in Central America as there is in North America for sure..

The "sorry not interested part" is because you were an American men and respected it. Once a woman get into the car of a South American, sorry or not, interested or not, she is in for the rest, willfully or not. She cannot change her mind on the way. If she does, she will get raped most of the time. She had given permission by getting in the car to start with, this is how it is perceived. You are still the woman owned by a man (meaning with no rights by and for yourself), in SA or Middle East, do not forget it when you get there (of course, not aaaalll Central or South American man are like this, but a majority).

However, for a good side or a good point, flirting is part of life in Central/South America and in Turkey as well, and is seen favorably by women as long as respect is also there. Women do not get offended for being openly fliirted and commented on. South American and Turkish women often feel very lost when they come in America and are not openly flirted anymore. They often go depressed thinking they have lost their feminine charm.

Talking here from experience and my South/Central American and Turkish friends comments, friends who are women

You are totally correct about all your points and my post only painted a partial picture - a picture coming from the perspective of a Gringo and a Gringo's experience. You are totally right about how many Latin men somehow have no regard for their children - something I cannot at all understand. My wife, Cristina, is from Medellin. We married 10 years ago. She has a daughter who the father abandoned Cristina days after she told him she was pregnant. I have essentially adopted her daughter and she sees me as her father, an awesome honor.

Another point you make is with regards to the risks a Latina takes in many cases if she goes out with a Latin man - again, not all, but far more the case is true than with Gringos and men from other cultures.

In fact, Cristina as well as several Latinas I have known have told me the same thing you stated. I guess I was just lucky that because I am a Gringo, Latin women were more attracted to me than I experienced in America, and my point was that the programming fed to American society was to blame for the ridiculous dynamic. But you pointed out the additional truths that the Latin world allows men to treat women terribly. Not all Latin men do this, but its far more the cultural norm. In fact, when I was living in Panama, a Latina friend of mine got a job at a bank making about $3,000 a month. I was told that was almost unheard of for a woman and this was just 4 or so years ago. So this problem extends to the work place.

In being even further honest, I have encountered many American males who would enjoy times with prostitutes which I personally have zero issue about. But what I did also notice is most of the American males' attitudes about women in general. Many seemed to carry a chip on their shoulder regarding their experiences with many American women and they extended that to a general viewpoint regarding all women and then they would take out their issues on the poor prostitutes by treating them poorly. I must be unique as I never had anger towards women - I see that for the most part and in most of the world, women have been suppressed and I actually had a chip on my shoulder about males.

What it all boils down to to me is simple but so so hard all over the planet due to the massive programing our cultures put us all through. I remember when I first started waking up - which was back in 2002. I have only recently been able to pull myself together such that I actually like who/what I am. I had to go through hell the past 10 years to undo so much of the BS I realized I had to wake up from. Don't get me wrong, I am still in process and perhaps we all are and we all always will be. Anyways, Flash, thank you for your points as I painted a very incomplete picture.

justoneman

[Arrowwind]

I was skirting a relationship with a man when I lived in Escondido... we were looking each other over over a period of weeks... it was very intense ... he was very attractive to me... I went to his home one time, after invite, and found he already had a wife... and man she was pissed!
Since I had walked a long way to get there and it was quite dark and late, and no one had a car,,,, these were my early hippy days, I spent the night in their tepee... most unconfortably.

It became clear that we were not meant for each other. ;) but I stil saw him frequently for a while even though everything cooled off. we would just talk at the co-op or he would come by to discuss herbal stuff. Then I left that part of the country and didn't see him again.

About 20 years later Im home with my kids, on a weekday afternoon catching glympses of the Oprah show while Im housecleaning... and she is interviewing poligamists.... and my god! there he was! with two of his four wifes, one of which was at the tepee so long ago. Blew my mind!

Plural marriage is a term that is mostly connected with Mormons. It was typical of the mormon faith at one point in history. Still is in their Fundamental fraction of the church that is not accepted by mainstream mormons.... Utal is loaded with poligomy.... they even have a beer called Poligmy Porter. :o

[mosquito]

This is wonderful reading !

"Sexual" energy is spirit manifest in our bodies and being in harmony with the way it wishes to dance in us is key to happiness and growth.

The repression of our sexuality by religion and increasingly by governments is designed to enslave us. Maybe the vulgar (to me) use of sex in the Western media is simply a response to all the repressed sexuality.

So glad to see this beautiful subject being intelligently and openly discussed.

Love and hugs, Philip

[Simonm]

What a great thread, discussed by great people. This is going some way to explain myself, if only I could be honest with people. I'm just at odds to explain why I feel what I feel.

Thanks.

[Chester]

I have been fortunate. I was able to exit a restrictive relationship and enter into a new, understanding relationship 10 years ago. Via the new dynamic and logistics of the relationship where I was located in one country and my wife was based in another, we had just as much time apart as we had together. Because of these fortunate circumstances as well as my wife's sense of personal self worth combined with the wisdom to know she married a very frisky human male, I was given the following rules.

"Never in the house, definitely never in our bed, never the same girl more than twice and always use a condom." (I happen to have a vasectomy so no fear of pregnancies) Well, as it goes with me I broke all 4 rules many times but what my wife experienced when she was with me was a real man and we have an excellent relationship still today. She appreciates my energy and when we do get together sexually its always great as is equally every other aspect of our relationship.

Understand I am 54 and she is 46 so we aren't kids anymore. But also note she is a Latina from Medellin and didn't have the exposure to the massive programming folks in the USA and some other noted western countries have experienced... programming pounded into them from the media and the conned sheeple/police.

By the way, she certainly has complete freedom to do as she pleases with regards to sex from my own point of view. I would be lying if I did not admit the thought stirs a wee bit of fear, but it is a teenie tiny bit which in some ways perhaps makes the adventure we share all the more exciting. That I could lose her to another man may also be additional motivation in being the best man I can be for her.

One important thing to add. I did meet a young lady about 4 years ago in Panama (another Colombiana) and we met several times and though she was a "professional" we both realized "love" was starting to creep into the picture. At that point I decided I was incapable of sharing that kind of love without taking something away from each one of them and so we never had sex again though we have remained friends. I cannot say this would be the case for another woman or man but in my case, I wasn't interested in sharing that kind of love with another woman other than my wife.

I will also add that it has been less and less important for me to be physically with other women as I get older.

Anyways, I just shared as openly as I can and do not propose to know what is right or wrong for anyone else.

justoneman

[the_vast_mystery]

This is wonderful reading !

"Sexual" energy is spirit manifest in our bodies and being in harmony with the way it wishes to dance in us is key to happiness and growth.

The repression of our sexuality by religion and increasingly by governments is designed to enslave us. Maybe the vulgar (to me) use of sex in the Western media is simply a response to all the repressed sexuality.

So glad to see this beautiful subject being intelligently and openly discussed.

Love and hugs, Philip

I think a little of column A, a little of column B. It's also attempting to isolate us from one another and then sell us back what we now forgot we lost. Specifically society walls off free love/sex with taboo, saying that loving relations must emerge from their Churches or their "dating" rituals. This gives churches and any arbiters of these dating rituals immense social power as they now can deny you access to a companion. (which depending on the person's temperment, isolation will drive you insane if it's done over a long enough period.) This also means people become dependent on these sources for relationships and that now means that they can get power in other areas of your life as well. If you are dependent on needing to have a "Traditional Catholic Marriage" for instance, then you cannot disobey the Catholic church, lest you want to lose your entire family situation. But of course people still want sex so after failing to remove "Sex for pleasure" from the human condition love/sex is debased and marketed in an objectifying way. People are portrayed as objects of desire that must be won against their will in elaborate manipulations done through various dating rituals which all really boil down to getting that other person "hooked' on you or what you can provide to such a point that they won't leave. You have to win people through these rituals of course, entirely because of the censor brigade still outlaws most open public discussion of such things (let alone display, think of the children! ;p) and as such they give the major corporations a way to extract profit by attempting to sell things to people in hopes that these objects will somehow let them "win" at dating.

It's basically an elaborate con, they couldn't destroy Sex for pleasure, so they're still attempting to regulate it for profit/control. If society ever evolved to a point where finding a companion or casual sex became easy then that would destroy a billion dollar market, and we can't have that now can we?! Think of the children...and how much profit they'll bring in when their only choice if they ever want to feel any kind of love is buy things from us?! ;p

[Chester]

What I have discovered about serious sex... is the tantric benefits. In fact, I believe the single most important factor in my own awakening process (still ongoing and hopefully for eternity) in this lifetime has been achieved through sex. Lots of it and with very free and amazing women.

It's is my belief that the intention of the PTBs to control sex as what they do is to suppress one's ability to awaken their kundalini (as it were) such that they might then be able to inhibit transcendence of the kundalini structure as well. I say this because (as we have been discussing in Vivek's thread - A New World Order: Exposing the Luciferian Agenda - )

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46028-A-New-World-Order-Exposing-the-Luciferian-Agenda

... it has been considered that the "chakra system" may actually be an implementation of the "archontic forces."

So perhaps through tantric sexual practice I have been able to bypass this "system" and discover what I feel is the only important chakra, the heart chakra. And by stating this - I simply drop the word "chakra" and rest with the word, Heart.

But also, by awakening these energy centers, I feel I am able to be on top of the possible entity relationships that might want to slip in and derail me for the purposes of loosh production... and fortunately all they get out of me now is moosh production... haha justoneclown

[Kimberley]

bumping this!!!! Sure would like to have more dialog on this.... :hug:

[modwiz]

I concur. This is an important thread.

[9eagle9]

At least he didn't say it was an impotent thread.

[Reaver]

This is a repost of a thread I created yesterday when I wasn't aware of this thread's existence. Thanks to Kimberley for bringing this thread to my attention.
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This is a topic which has interested me for quite some time, not just about matters of male or female nor senseless sex. What really interests me is the deeper aspect and the impact sexuality has on human beings. From the potential to use it as a tool for fear and repression to the potential of living a calm life and even improving your health.

The very cosmos seems to carry sexuality in its very fabric. Isn’t a big bang something akin to a cosmic orgasm? the universal womb dancing along the universal light? something like that.

Anyways my first entry on this subject will focus more on the aspect of sexual abuse/repression.

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The way I see it sexual abuse is deeply related to a master-slave relationship. Sexual abuse could be seen as someone forcing another person into sexual activities without their consent or it could be seen as someone trying to control/repress the sexuality of another person. The latter seems to play a big role within families.

I highly recommend the film “Black Swan” because it represents these dynamics in a brilliant manner and I mean the repression and overstimulation of sexuality.

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What should be understood is that this can be described as a complex matter. It becomes complex when you start to look beyond the “what happened” and you start to explore the why, the who, the how, the when, etc. In this exercise you will find this goes way further than sexual predators and mere superficial cultural ideas, the monster is a giant octopus, each tentacle is a different area of study.

There are two things which should be core principles when studying the predator mindset and I’m not limiting this to sexual predation. You’ve got this mindset in the workplace, family, sports, religions. Basically the whole culture is frankeinsteined into different types of predators.

Anyways those two core principles are the human psyche and psychopathy. The former will help you understand how you can mold or even make other people follow certain patterns, while the latter can help you understand how this mindsets are set into motion and in fact the person in question doesn’t even have to be a full-blown psychopath to replicate this behaviour.

It should be understood that sexual energy is really powerful, this energy can be used to create healthy bonds or you can use it to literally start a world war. Let’s observe Nature for a while, think of rivers. Rivers have a natural flow, gradually they go on finding their way towards the ocean or a lake.

The time the river transforms or arrives at the ocean or lake could be seen as a moment when the river discharges its energy, this flow may change at some point, but usually it happens at a gradual pace unless the flow is disrupted by some “natural disaster” or if humans come in.

Humans have the ability to distort a river’s natural flow, at times you’ll see this flow being redirected into a dam. For a long time this process may seem harmless, but there are times when things go wrong and you’ll see the mighty dams being destroyed by rivers, this is a consequence of disrupting a natural flow.

Likewise sexual energy is tampered with. There are institutions which will launch their cultural memes to distort this flow and there can also be people who mindlessly adopts these memes. In modern society you can see two main ways to tamper with this energy, one is to repress it and the other one is to overcharge it.

If this energy is repressed for a long enough period of time, then you can see people who gradually start to become neurotic, anxious and very stressed. In fact the body starts to get very tense and it can be quite difficult to relax it. If you want to study cases which are even more extreme, then take a look at armed forces.

You take young men and women and prohibit them to exhibit or engage in any type of sexual activity. The result? extremely stressed men and women who can’t channel this sexual energy in a healthy way, stressed beings who then will be given missions to murder people and they will do it because to an extent it is a way to channel this energy, as toxic as this process may be. In a nutshell you produce people who are very submissive, yet extremely violent if they are put into a dangerous situation.

On the other hand you can overcharge the body with this energy and find release into extreme sexuality. People who go through this process can become quite rebellious, but very aggressive. It is this overstimulation which can lead to machismo, people who won’t bent the knee but will seek to put everyone else down. This is akin to a flood which can destroy a dam, water pouring out from every angle.

Both of these dynamics can produce fascist dictators, some occupy positions of tremendous power. Other’s don’t, but can be found in the average family. One of the problems with modern culture is that both paradigms are being used as ideological bombs, people are encouraged to repress their sexual energy while at the same time they are encouraged to take it to the extreme. Some people are more brutalized than others, but this dynamic seems to be the norm. On the other hand repression or overstimulation can result in self-sadism and/or sadism towards other beings.

Then you can get into the subject of psychopathy. I’d say a great number of these “people” do discharge their energy and aren’t sexually repressed, but since the predator mindset is very “natural” to them, this energy will be taken to the extreme. Perhaps one of the best examples of “sexual psychopathy” is found in the man who was known as the Marquis de Sade: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade These people prey at every level of society, from the poor environments to the mega rich environments. There’s no remorse which can hold down these monsters.

Now you could argue about doing an extensive background check and applying punishment to offenders, sexual or otherwise. But this is a tricky area and certainly is one which baffles me when people start to support either of these methods.

You can find yourself in a very precarious situation. Demanding extensive background checks and punishment result in societies who become very paranoid, these kind of mindsets are what lead people to accept Orwellian paradigms and in fact they can splinter communities because no one can trust each other anymore and there are powers who are happy to see this happening and then comes their propaganda machines to further divide society into paranoid groups.

You could also argue that physical punishment is necessary, including dead. But let’s not be quick to forget history. Certainly people would restrain themselves more out of fear, but this sort of practice is something which leads to inquisitions where guilty and innocent people are hanged, burned, chopped, crippled and murdered all the same.

There are powers who would like to see lustful crowds demanding blood in the name of justice, a nice decapitation makes a nice sadistic circus in the city square. I also notice a curious pattern, while some people in the world would like to demand punishment, they think: “Well the system should do it, someone should take care of it”. It is one thing to demand third-party executioners, but being honest who would have the courage and cold blood to administer punishment?

Now I’d like to make this very personal, let’s say someone is set to be publicly executed, whether this person is innocent or not is immaterial, since you are highly convinced of their culpability. So you find yourself demanding justice, but would you walk into the execution spot, look this person into the eyes, let them tell you their story and the proceed to shot them dead, cut their head, slit their throat or whatever while you keep staring into a pair of eyes?.

There are fine lines when it comes to this, the only exception being psychopaths, but they can be hard to spot at times and next thing you know you could have executions under the pretext of “war on psychopathy”. The road is steep.

If you ask me I’d say sexuality is a core element to have a sane psyche and if you pay attention you’ll notice that sexuality is deeply rooted into humanity’s state of decay. The tricky part comes when you try to balance this energy.

[Reaver]

I don't know if this has been brought up already because I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I think that marriage is something closely related to the subject of sexuality. In fact I think that marriage as it is known in its conventional forms is a way to corrupt sexuality and make it toxic. In fact I'll go as far as saying that the idea of a social contract between two, three or fourty people is the result of corrupting an esoteric/philosophical theme which is known as the Chymical Wedding in Alchemy. From such point of view, a wedding is nothing more than an allegory for the integration of various principles found within the human being, an individual ceremony, not a collective one.

Bear with me while I try to give a small occult view on the subject of marriage.

In my own experience, I've learned that many aspects of the cancerous culture somehow are connected to psychological and occult archetypes, not only that but Archetypes seem to be the very same fabric of reality to some extent. As a human being you are able to tap into those Archetypes and then use them to fulfil whatever purpose you may have.

Somehow Archetypes seem to have a trickledown effect and to some extent they dictate the laws which govern X or Y reality, even your very own life. The problem is that most people are so unaware of it, which is a tragedy because I feel that knowing Archetypes can be very empowering. Think of being a software programmer who bit by bit creates a video game.In order to manifest your world in the digital realm you have to establish certain governing principles, the archetypes of your virtual world, now the example is rather simplistic and in fact, the virtual world is nowhere near as complex as what you would call reality.

And so by having in mind Archetypes we can take a dive into the rabbit hole and bring up the subject of the Alchemical Wedding:

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So to me it would seem that the Alchemical Wedding is about working on existent principles within one's self to attain “perfection” or rather evolve gradually. Somehow this has trickled-down into the cultosphere and we are left with the idea of marriage and its various cultural permutations and apparently the core theme remains the same: The eternal union between male and female (or “till’ death do us part”), the idea of becoming one, the fusion of principles, the aim for androgyny.

I’ve noticed this cultural pattern: While experiencing an orgasm during sex, a feeling of becoming one with your partner takes place. So what I see taking place is a corrupted simulacrum of something very sacred, perhaps there is a natural longing for an Alchemical marriage, but by being blinded by ignorance and stupidity humans buy the fake and the corrupt which can never fill that spiritual void and of course the social engineers and the occult sorcerers have a hand in all of this.

Marriage was -and still is in some cases- a strategic tool in the grand game of chess, let’s look at the upper class of old: Arranged marriages to consolidate alliances, to consolidate trade, to preserve royalty, to achieve political victories, etc. If you pay attention for a bit you’ll realize that this pattern was/is all over the place, as in all over the planet, isn’t it curious? Yes, marriage as a means to attain power, to bind, to trap people into a social contract. Oh but you see, this social contract has been romanticized through the ages, such romantic crap reached the masses over and over again. It is not uncommon that many times the masses long to become the elite, they want a taste of such... wonderful and fantastic world, so the social engineers noticed what the common folk craved for and granted the masses their wish to a certain extent.

At first the masses could seek a religious contract, nothing fancy but it was a step. Little by little the social engineers went shaping the cultural cancers and we arrive at this day and age. If you have the money, you too can have a marvellous marriage: The wedding, the honey moon (which is an occult theme, just don’t ask me right now what it means because I forgot), the house, the kids, THE HAPPY LIFE UNTIL YOU DROP DEAD. The media will come with the smoke and mirrors and sell you pre-packaged lies.

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“A diamond is forever” so is love and so is marriage. Have you noticed the sorcery in this? Identification works wonders, especially when you can manage the way in which the masses identify themselves with X idea or object. You see, on a very superficial level De Beers was on a marketing mission, to make a large profit with their glorified diamonds... but the deeper aim of this marketing campaign was to put a spell on the masses, social engineering in action, make people buy into and believe the beautiful lies.

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The aim of Alchemy is to turn lead into gold. One of the necessary elements to achive such transformation is the Alchemical Marriage or Chymical Wedding. interestingly enough “lead into gold” is interchangeable with “coal into diamond”, and thus the occult message of De Beers is: “We can give you an Alchemical Wedding”. Turn base elements into precious metals... indeed the subtextual message of transmutation is present here. Turn the base impulses or “the lower nature” of humans into a “higher nature”, the awakening of the sky woman or sky man within. Countless dying beings trying to rise by buying a simulacrum of the real thing, a real shame.

From a psychological point of view it's not susprising to see marriages fail, I mean the couple or the group could live under the same roof until they die, but it'll be a meaningless existence, automatons carrying out their duty which is dictated by some twisted social morality and decency. If two or more dissociated beings who are unaware and/or uninterested in eliminating the toxicity within their psyche start a relationship then I'd say such relationship will become cancer sooner or later.

I figure those kind of people lack what I'd call an aunthentic-self product of deprogramming and self-contemplation and they would be quick to adopt what is socially acceptable or cool, thus creating a pseudo-self. However those cool and acceptable memes are the product of social engineers who lack any inner integrity, so people would be adopting lies which have their root in fragmented psyches. A being living with cracks in his/her psyche is doomed to self-destruct in multiple ways if he/she doesn't start to counter the programming and build psychological immunity accordingly.

All in all, modern men and women have marriage as a mask to try and cover their existential angst with dreams of ever lasting happiness and fake love.

[modwiz]

At least he didn't say it was an impotent thread.

Paul generously corrected my intentional misspelling. So much for in the joke.

Would you concur that we can conquer impotency? Little purple pill. I love it. Purple!

Perhaps sex at dawn is too early for some. Nervous system is still half asleep.

[Carmen]

Hmm, sex at dawn. That's often when older men can 'perform'!! That's why I had become a very early riser!! Haha.

[Reaver]

Would you concur that we can conquer impotency? Little purple pill. I love it. Purple!
I rather purge my impotency with the help of a female and curvilicious Tantric Engineer.

[modwiz]

Would you concur that we can conquer impotency? Little purple pill. I love it. Purple!
I rather purge my impotency with the help of a female and curvilicious Tantric Engineer.

Me too. I do not want to be cruel to those who rely on the purple for whatever reason they have to. We can't all be Picasso.

[modwiz]

Hmm, sex at dawn. That's often when older men can 'perform'!! That's why I had become a very early riser!! Haha.

I was waiting for someone to bring that up. Thanks Carmen. LOL. I said, "bring it up". Heh heh (A Butt Head snicker here).

Since I am not an older man your word will suffice.

[Chester]

Where are the women discussing this issue? That's typical. If men feel that it is unnatural to be monogamous then they should say that upfront before marriage. Or even better, men can start marrying each other and they can cheat on each other too, besides they would agree that having multiple partners while being in a relationship is perfectly fine. A match made in heaven.

Or men can do what I did before I got married - informed my soon to be wife that I was happy to share with her my heart, but the activities of my body are free.

She accepted this pre-condition.

And we have been happily (and very satisfyingly) married for near 12 years now.

Ohhh and of course, the same conditions apply for her as well.