Caroline Myss "The Consciousness Movement"

[Unified Serenity]

This is a short video from Caroline Myss talk at Being Fearless (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnSHNyn7qQ). This clip on Consciousness is very good:

uFmclQJ_lBA

[InCiDeR]

This is a short video from Caroline Myss talk at Being Fearless (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnSHNyn7qQ). This clip on Consciousness is very good:(...)

I totally agree "Unified Serenity" that this clip of Carolyn Myss is important in many ways. I came across this speech for some month ago and in my point of view it brought up some dangerous spiritual traps on the table.

Myself recently left a relation because I realized that the other person had fallen into this trap of "Spiritual Narcisism"... the sad part is she could not see it herself, even if I tried to give her some hints. I hope with all of my heart that she will wake up from the blindness and start to see herself in the mirror again.


Spiritual materialism or spiritual narcissism are terms used to describe mistakes spiritual seekers commit which turn the pursuit of spiritualism into an ego building and confusion creating endeavor. This is based on the idea that ego development is counter to spiritual progress. (...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_materialism

***

Here are some reading regarding the subject:


Elizabeth Lesser

BOOK:
The Seeker's Guide (previously published as The New American Spirituality)
http://www.amazon.com/Seekers-previously-published-American-Spirituality/dp/0679783598

”Spiritual Materialism" by Guest Author Elizabeth Lesser
http://www.betterlisten.com/2011/07/spiritual-materialism-by-guest-author-elizabeth-lesser.html


Chögyam Trungpa

BOOK:
Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism ; Trungpa Tulku Chogyam Trungpa
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cutting-Through-Spiritual-Materialism-Trungpa/dp/1570629579

Preview
http://www.ayahuasca-wasi.com/2011/cutting-through-spiritual-materialism/


T J Addington

Leading from the sandbox
http://leadingfromthesandbox.blogspot.com/2011/02/spiritual-narcissism.html


Rabbi Alan Lurie

The Allure of Narcissistic Spirituality
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/the-allure-of-spiritual-n_b_803415.html

[Cilka]

She was descibing the classical symptom of capitalism, which is narcissism. Capitalism has spread to almost every corner of this globe and has destroyed the true spirit of communities. I grew up in a communist country. After the wave of the capitalist regime swept through my country, the people lost their sense of belonging to a group that worked together in harmony no matter how hard the government tried to suppress the people. The communist government had no chance of winning against the people, ever, it only had the power to keep people in cages physically not spiritually.

The capitalist regime is totally different, it is based on a different mechanical process of workings, and is way more efficient and cunning. It has an iron fist that's capable of turning each individual into its weakest and most vulnerable state, and after each individual surrenders its personal power, then it becomes completely vulnerable to any type of attack from this ugly monster whose needs are met by the constant greed for money and power that feeds its. This perfect political system of destruction, that so desperately tries to get hold of the last standing free societies such as Iran and Syria, is leading this world to its final destination of the existence of a robotic nature, void of any joy in our own existence.

It's truly sad, and hopefully something good will come out of all this before it's too late.

[CdnSirian]

Love her. She always makes her points so clearly!

[gooty64]

post off topic

[Unified Serenity]

I don't believe Caroline was talking about capitalism, if you want to go there that is fine, but please keep the thread on topic regarding the points raised by the video.

Thank you

[Unified Serenity]

Questioning what is happening, who is manipulating events and people is not negative. We are a hurting world. People of ill desire have maneuvered us and done terrible things. This video in the OP says so much. You cannot heal in ignorance. You can "feel good", but heal? No, we cannot heal the world without seeing it as it is. Love, true unconditional love comes out of the shadow. True love understands the dark side within, and to know that you have to shine light upon it which only comes with the truth. Those who say it doesn't matter what the truth is, we just need to love one another are missing an important fact. True love is truth in balance and in that balance we have understanding and are not in a struggle internally and eventually externally.

[Flash]

Questioning what is happening, who is manipulating events and people is not negative. We are a hurting world. People of ill desire have maneuvered us and done terrible things. This video in the OP says so much. You cannot heal in ignorance. You can "feel good", but heal? No, we cannot heal the world without seeing it as it is. Love, true unconditional love comes out of the shadow. True love understands the dark side within, and to know that you have to shine light upon it which only comes with the truth. Those who say it doesn't matter what the truth is, we just need to love one another are missing an important fact. True love is truth in balance and in that balance we have understanding and are not in a struggle internally and eventually externally.

Hi US,
You arer right, Carolyn brings clarity into healing, and you cannot heal in ignorance, neither yourself or the world. Consciousness is part of it. However, I have two points to bring here if you don't mind:
"true love is truth in balance" without any struggle (to paraphrase you). I think that true love is much more than truth in balance. Truth does not need balance for one, it is just truth, and love encompasses truth, truth is part of it, not totally it. To me love is the glue of this universe, the basic god particle if you want to call it this way.

My second point is related to the retired Avalonian comments, namely Cilka. She was writing about capitalism vs communism and their impact on their respective societies. I do think she was spot on to start with, and mostly, I do think that Carolyn statements are spiritual yes, but always have strong components of behavior/archetypes/beliefs impacts on social groups and society at large. I do think that Carolyn is a strong political animal as well and has definite views on politics and social organisations, on their good and detrimental impact on us, the humans trying to integrate their soul components individually and planet wise. The only reason Carolyn does not talk directly about capitalism and its impact, or about government politics, is because of the much too real risks involved in US- and abroad - if she were to open up to it. Yes, even spiritual masters have to take that into account and are limited by the powerful narcissistic/sociopatic side. As long as she remains spiritual, she will be left to do her job, albeit in a limited fashion. If she opens up, she will be pursued and destroyed. imho

`¨

[Unified Serenity]

Thank you Flash, I appreciate your words. When I say truth in balance I think more of the application of that truth much like justice tempered with mercy and understanding.

[Mark]

I think there is a difference between narcissism and self-examination. But there does come a point where one crosses over into the other.

Siddhartha who became the Buddha left his newborn child and wife to go sit in a forest for 6 years. Was that narcissism or something more?

Once a person has truly done the consciousness work, gone past the bells and whistles of the movement, a very real shift in perception and behavior occurs. At that point the individual can choose to go even deeper and forget about the world totally, concentrating instead upon the infinite inner realities or that person can expand outwards to help other people.

That expansion outwards is what we've been missing to a large degree, but I think that is changing. I also think that those navel-gazers who have been doing their consciousness work have been communicating their efforts for the most part and those communications have led to the pervasiveness of certain kinds of information across the internet in recent years.

Have you noticed, on FB, the predominance now of a certain type of picture with quotes or spiritual msgs on them? Sure, some are a bit trite and it's a quick and perhaps surface way to communicate to others, but, 3 years ago, there was nothing like this going on. There has been a shift.

Hopefully it will now go into overdrive.

[Delight]

I think there is a difference between narcissism and self-examination. But there does come a point where one crosses over into the other.

Siddhartha who became the Buddha left his newborn child and wife to go sit in a forest for 6 years. Was that narcissism or something more?

Once a person has truly done the consciousness work, gone past the bells and whistles of the movement, a very real shift in perception and behavior occurs. At that point the individual can choose to go even deeper and forget about the world totally, concentrating instead upon the infinite inner realities or that person can expand outwards to help other people.

That expansion outwards is what we've been missing to a large degree, but I think that is changing. I also think that those navel-gazers who have been doing their consciousness work have been communicating their efforts for the most part and those communications have led to the pervasiveness of certain kinds of information across the internet in recent years.

Have you noticed, on FB, the predominance now of a certain type of picture with quotes or spiritual msgs on them? Sure, some are a bit trite and it's a quick and perhaps surface way to communicate to others, but, 3 years ago, there was nothing like this going on. There has been a shift.

Hopefully it will now go into overdrive.

There is something very edgy in the way Carolyn Myss comes across. I fist encountered her in 1993 before she was so well known. Then, she was straight forward but seemed more soft in a way. I think CM is harsh and seems angry and judgemental in her tone. CM has made a very excellent contribution for me pointing out that to stay in woundology is crippling because we channel our energy into that. Our supply of energy cannot go to larger purposes.

Yes, there is such a thin line separating self examination and nonproductive navel gazing and spiritual narcissim.

What a point about Siddhartha. Leaving his family to work out his destiny does not seem to be a socially responsible move.

I feel torn about what is my "social" responsibility. What I came up against in my role in society was doing "my part" out of guilt and fear and lack. I desire to contribute from Joy and expanding opportunities and celebrating how people together can create systems that support everyone.

For instance I am part of a community group that is dedicated to feeding the hungry, encouraging self, family and community sustainability and nutrition. We have been affiliated with a food pantry that just gives whatever is available. It also is dedicated to paying employees and it has not encouraged the recipients to step up and move from contributee to contributor.

We raise organic produce for the pantry and raise contributions. However, the number of hungry people served increases and last year 14,000 people (many repeaters) in a small rural area came to that pantry. This year there are even more coming. It is really "in trouble" and this crisis is an opportunity if it steps up to face its structure and change.

Because the pantry is failing, It looks like it "needs" more support than ever to keep going. Should the same old thing be propped up or allowed to dissolve? I say allow it to dissolve. But that would leave these poor people without the pantry. I say they will find another source and something else will come in to take the pantry's place.

I believe that this is an example of an organization that is intensely stuck in woundology and always operating from crisis, lack, emergency management and the belief in victims. Can a system be self reflecting? I think it cannot...the people IN it have to self reflect and reflect on what is created.

So maybe if the ones in charge were doing more self examination, they might find that the failure comes from a set of beliefs and fears and wounds that if addressed would change the dynamics. And also, love is not propping up systems that are not viable.

Thanks, Maggie

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Yes, there is such a thin line separating self examination and nonproductive navel gazing and spiritual narcissim.

What a point about Siddhartha. Leaving his family to work out his destiny does not seem to be a socially responsible move.

I feel torn about what is my "social" responsibility. What I came up against in my role in society was doing "my part" out of guilt and fear and lack. I desire to contribute from Joy and expanding opportunities and celebrating how people together can create systems that support everyone.



Good points. If Siddhartha were alive today, doing what he did then, he would be considered a 'dead beat dad'. And who knows, maybe he was considered that back then. If I recall correctly, Einstein was also a rather a neglectful family man. No one knows what is right or wrong for someone else.

And I also agree with the point made by Rahkyt when he said: "]I think there is a difference between narcissism and self-examination." I believe it was Somerset Maughm who talked about the razor's edge, the fine line between right and wrong, black and white.

My opinion is: What is right for one person, might be entirely wrong for another and vice-versa. And to take that even further: What is right for one person in one situation, might be wrong for that same person in another situation.

On the other hand Caroline Myss, like many others, helps us to think about life, consciousness, etc., which spawns great threads such as this. I'm often surprised about how I really feel about so many subjects when I begin to post. And reading what other's think also expands my views.

But I hear what CM is trying to tell us in the above video, it's quite easy to become trapped in self-absorption - the Ego depends on it.

[Mark]

It's funny sometimes how life always finds a way. Even when you don't expect it. Something will come in to take the pantry's place in the lives of those people. It almost 'has' to happen given the drive that they will display to put food on the table once that option is gone. It may result in the creation of a new pantry, or funds coming from elsewhere, or people getting together to donate vegetables, canned foods and other goods. Or, people may just disperse elsewhere.

Regarding social responsibility, I agree with both of you ladies. Apparently it did not matter to his karma that he left his wife and child, as he was able to attain Nirvana and become realized. In other cultures, communities raise children, not necessarily always the mother or the father and there is not the same sense of good or bad connected with that. The nuclear family - as well as the expression of love as we know it - is kind of a cultural imposition not necessarily natural or spiritual. Much that we think of as being "from God" was "from the Patriarchs" who were trying to establish and maintain a coherent society based upon certain rules of behavior. How those really affect us spiritually may not even be an issue.

[Flash]

It's funny sometimes how life always finds a way. Even when you don't expect it. Something will come in to take the pantry's place in the lives of those people. It almost 'has' to happen given the drive that they will display to put food on the table once that option is gone. It may result in the creation of a new pantry, or funds coming from elsewhere, or people getting together to donate vegetables, canned foods and other goods. Or, people may just disperse elsewhere.

Regarding social responsibility, I agree with both of you ladies. Apparently it did not matter to his karma that he left his wife and child, as he was able to attain Nirvana and become realized. In other cultures, communities raise children, not necessarily always the mother or the father and there is not the same sense of good or bad connected with that. The nuclear family - as well as the expression of love as we know it - is kind of a cultural imposition not necessarily natural or spiritual. Much that we think of as being "from God" was "from the Patriarchs" who were trying to establish and maintain a coherent society based upon certain rules of behavior. How those really affect us spiritually may not even be an issue.

And do not forget that Siddharta's family was extremely wealthy and had many servants and helpers to help raise a family. Siddharta was not leaving his kids starving (although as the mom, I would have been angry at him most probably). It is still the case actually in well to do families in India, a infant is never touching the ground or put in a "sleeper" or crib in day time, being always held by numerous people in the household (this information came from an Indian acquaintance of mine having great pity for North American woman left without help to raise their children and worst, having to work as well, she was really distressed to see our condition).

As for Carolyne Myss, she may just be closed to bs. And for this she may hit some egos. I do not perceive her as harsh but rather kind of impatient with nonsense on the spiritual path. But yes, she did look softer when younger. However, even then, in 93, she was already tiny bit rough with nonsense. I have been to one of her week long seminar in 1990. We were a small group in Mexico.
She was great and a real Seer and making dry jokes at nonsense..

[Delight]

It's funny sometimes how life always finds a way. Even when you don't expect it. Something will come in to take the pantry's place in the lives of those people. It almost 'has' to happen given the drive that they will display to put food on the table once that option is gone. It may result in the creation of a new pantry, or funds coming from elsewhere, or people getting together to donate vegetables, canned foods and other goods. Or, people may just disperse elsewhere.

Regarding social responsibility, I agree with both of you ladies. Apparently it did not matter to his karma that he left his wife and child, as he was able to attain Nirvana and become realized. In other cultures, communities raise children, not necessarily always the mother or the father and there is not the same sense of good or bad connected with that. The nuclear family - as well as the expression of love as we know it - is kind of a cultural imposition not necessarily natural or spiritual. Much that we think of as being "from God" was "from the Patriarchs" who were trying to establish and maintain a coherent society based upon certain rules of behavior. How those really affect us spiritually may not even be an issue.

And do not forget that Siddharta's family was extremely wealthy and had many servants and helpers to help raise a family. Siddharta was not leaving his kids starving (although as the mom, I would have been angry at him most probably). It is still the case actually in well to do families in India, a infant is never touching the ground or put in a "sleeper" or crib in day time, being always held by numerous people in the household (this information came from an Indian acquaintance of mine having great pity for North American woman left without help to raise their children and worst, having to work as well, she was really distressed to see our condition).

As for Carolyne Myss, she may just be closed to bs. And for this she may hit some egos. I do not perceive her as harsh but rather kind of impatient with nonsense on the spiritual path. But yes, she did look softer when younger. However, even then, in 93, she was already tiny bit rough with nonsense. I have been to one of her week long seminar in 1990. We were a small group in Mexico.
She was great and a real Seer and making dry jokes at nonsense..

I have been having intense conversations with my ladybuds here concerning what to "do" now regarding our responsibilities. Though I do feel CM to have a "harsh" energy due to the no nonsense position she takes, I still listen intently to what she is saying. It may be uncomfortable and I may not always agree but i thoroughly respect her.

In my local consciousness raising group, we are finding that the best move for us now is to present our (changing) "position statements" to one another. By that i mean , when I engage with the community, I just tell people what I value. However, I don't try to make anything change to suit my value.

Yes, I value CM for being who she is even if it feels harsh to hear her. She is very clear with her intentions and values. That helps me reflect on me.

On regards to the food pantry, I still "volunteer" despite having my own perspective and so have a split screen. I see what i appreciate on one. I accept what is on the other. I pray that we all get help making the "real" valuable for the whole. Being the loud mouth I am, the "devil" in me insists I share what I want to see: that I value whole food that is selected carefully with an eye to nurturing my neighbors, not fear that the cost is too high. (This is a counterpoint to typical purchases of "expired food" and overstocks etc. bought cents on the dollar from regional food banks).

Hunger as the issue seems to just make more hunger. My vote is lets look at how we share? I feel I personally stand for observing hunger as a transient "situation" soon to be remedied. I feel I stand for seeing the one who is hungry today being the supplier of sustenance on another day. My questions are related to what will make the scene appear for greater sharing? What can I contribute to the preferred scene?

I will speak to these values but realize I am not in the world to make it change for me. I don't expect others to agree with my understanding. I will try to work with what is "there" and not worry that I "must" keep this one organization "going". Yet, I think we have to dialogue from our positions unless we want to feel frustrated. All the people involved have to be seen as coming from the intention of "doing good". Otherwise, why be there? I choose to see that "goodness', messy as the welter of people looks. Messy as I am too!

Yes, if one institution closes, others will arise if the need still exists.

One of my fellow officers has said I am very intense and should lighten up and appreciate we are making a difference. CM has not lightened up and she helps me to stay in my strength. Another's opinion of my style really does not matter to what is important. The importance is what will keep a person still willing to engage? I will engage if I can be me. Also, if like CM, another person gives me new ideas, I'll be willing to be misguided and change my mind. Maggie